**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Nov 12 02:59:56 2007
Nov 12 04:51:18 <rwhitby> almost business hours in Mountain View ...
Nov 12 04:52:08 <rwhitby> oops - 12 hours out.  it's only 9pm on Sunday still.
Nov 12 04:52:53 <rwhitby> I keep forgetting how far behind the rest of the world the US is ;-)
Nov 12 05:40:44 <CM> rwhitby: Hehe
Nov 12 08:08:02 <ScaredyCat> yeah, especcially with 850
Nov 12 08:10:38 <ScaredyCat> 12:10 AM Monday (PST) - Time in Mountain View, California
Nov 12 08:10:44 <ScaredyCat> where is it then!
Nov 12 08:36:44 * ScaredyCat taps fingers on desk
Nov 12 08:37:31 * ljp paces nervously
Nov 12 08:41:26 * CM yawns
Nov 12 09:29:10 <ScaredyCat> tick tock tick tock
Nov 12 09:31:40 <GNAM> lol
Nov 12 09:31:48 <BabelO> boummm !
Nov 12 09:31:51 <BabelO> hello :)
Nov 12 09:31:52 <GNAM> time to have ANDROID
Nov 12 09:32:14 <BabelO> no, GMT -8 so you have to wait a little more ;)
Nov 12 09:32:50 <GNAM> our homepage will androidcommunity.com
Nov 12 09:32:56 <ScaredyCat> it's the 12th there too!
Nov 12 09:33:36 <ScaredyCat> GNAM: are you trying pretent your forums are actually somehting from google?
Nov 12 09:33:39 <ScaredyCat> pretend
Nov 12 09:34:05 <GNAM> no, i want something from google
Nov 12 09:34:19 <GNAM> something like that
Nov 12 10:22:48 <ScaredyCat> k, just checking...
Nov 12 10:24:55 * Stephmw checks ScaredyCat and finds an OpenMoko sticker on the bumper
Nov 12 10:31:46 <ScaredyCat> meep meep
Nov 12 10:32:04 <zoolooc> hello, so where's android?
Nov 12 10:32:29 <Stephmw> still having its batteries charged
Nov 12 10:33:11 <zoolooc> lol
Nov 12 10:34:14 <zoolooc> actually, right now I'm more intersted in kernel support, it desn't have to be android, running on my phone, just linux
Nov 12 10:36:24 * ScaredyCat points at openmoko and qtopia
Nov 12 10:41:29 <zoolooc> jes, maybe. possibly even GPE
Nov 12 10:42:10 <zoolooc> but first, the msm7k kernel should support my kaiser, too, not only some dev board
Nov 12 10:56:51 <ScaredyCat> this google lot are so lazy, by 2:56am I've done a full days work ;)
Nov 12 11:34:28 <yashi> so what time will it be released?
Nov 12 11:35:21 <Stephmw> Morning, Mountain View time... GMT-8 apparently
Nov 12 11:35:49 * ScaredyCat mutters
Nov 12 12:10:59 * ScaredyCat mutters more
Nov 12 12:12:13 * Stephmw burps
Nov 12 12:12:45 * ScaredyCat puts Stephmw back in the pram
Nov 12 12:16:27 * Sput is amused by the nervousness in here
Nov 12 12:16:53 * Sput does not believe that android is going to live up to the expectations here
Nov 12 12:18:44 <Stephmw> Sput: nothing could live up to everybody's expectations :D
Nov 12 12:19:22 * Stephmw is in here just for professional reasons, honest
Nov 12 12:21:54 * ScaredyCat is just keeping an eye on CM
Nov 12 12:28:14 * Sput is trying to find out the relationship between Android and Qtopia
Nov 12 12:28:33 <Stephmw> There's one?
Nov 12 12:29:04 <Sput> dunno yet
Nov 12 12:29:14 <Sput> because I dunno what android is going to be :)
Nov 12 12:30:41 <ScaredyCat> it's going to be a big robot called Gort ....
Nov 12 12:31:16 * Stephmw chants the Paranoid Android verses
Nov 12 13:09:45 * ScaredyCat dances about
Nov 12 13:10:45 <ScaredyCat> seems to me that the topic is2 days out  :/
Nov 12 13:13:04 <Stephmw> unsurprising, I doubt they work at the weekend
Nov 12 13:13:09 <Stephmw> (even for google)
Nov 12 13:16:07 <ScaredyCat> lazy mofo's
Nov 12 13:16:09 <ScaredyCat> :O
Nov 12 13:16:11 <ScaredyCat> :P
Nov 12 13:19:11 * mypapit quit!!!!!
Nov 12 13:46:10 * CM pokes ScaredyCat's eye
Nov 12 13:46:38 <ScaredyCat> yoink!
Nov 12 13:46:45 <proct0r> Whats a good way to quit a job?
Nov 12 13:47:03 <CM> proct0r: You have a new one already?
Nov 12 13:47:09 <ScaredyCat> Monday, 12 November 2007, 05:46:50
Nov 12 13:47:31 <proct0r> CM: no my girlfriend wants to quit her job after 2 days of being there :D
Nov 12 13:47:37 <ScaredyCat> proct0r: say, you've made a career decision. You decided to get one
Nov 12 13:47:40 <CM> Haha
Nov 12 13:48:19 <CM> Well, I guess there's some kind of limit how quick you can go? (Don't know the english term for that)
Nov 12 13:49:18 <ScaredyCat> usually you get  a probation period...
Nov 12 13:49:34 <ScaredyCat> so you just have to fuck things up and they sack you in 10 seconds
Nov 12 13:49:48 <CM> Yeah, slack all you can.. ;)
Nov 12 13:50:03 <ScaredyCat> actually, usaually the probation thing is for both parties
Nov 12 13:50:16 <ScaredyCat> CM: you the CM school of slacking ;)
Nov 12 13:50:23 <ScaredyCat> s/you/yeah/
Nov 12 13:50:37 <proct0r> Yeah the other day she was in work and this lady wanted to sell her clothes to the store for wayy more than the computer said, then her kids went around knocking things off the shelves and she started swearing at her and all that
Nov 12 13:51:25 <ScaredyCat> wtf
Nov 12 13:51:40 <ScaredyCat> just tell them to piss off and clip the kids round the ear
Nov 12 13:51:59 <CM> ScaredyCat: I've been slacking here for months, they just won't fire me because all the others working here suck so much.. ;)
Nov 12 13:52:08 <ScaredyCat> lol
Nov 12 13:52:25 <ScaredyCat> how low do you have to go before they'll ditch you ;)
Nov 12 14:05:46 <rwhitby> well, it's now the 13th Nov here, and no SDK yet :-(  Time for bed though.
Nov 12 14:19:31 <RichardBronosky> anyone else live in a Market where Google is advertising that they are hiring?
Nov 12 14:19:32 <RichardBronosky> I
Nov 12 14:19:40 <RichardBronosky> I'm in Atlanta...
Nov 12 14:20:16 <RichardBronosky> Every time I have an email with MySQL, Python, or Java in it...
Nov 12 14:21:20 <RichardBronosky> Gmail shows me an ad saying "We're hiring /SQL|Python/Java/ /experts|gurus/"
Nov 12 14:21:50 <RichardBronosky> when you go to their jobs site though... there is nothing listed for those technologies.
Nov 12 14:22:19 <RichardBronosky> I think it is an indication of what is going to be used in Android.
Nov 12 14:24:23 <zoolooc> RichardBrionsky: what do you have in mind, "what is going to be used in Android"?
Nov 12 14:24:24 <RichardBronosky> welcome
Nov 12 14:24:58 <RichardBronosky> I think that python  will be one of the core dev languages.
Nov 12 14:25:00 <zoolooc> ops, sorry, misspelled your nick, which also looks like a real name, no offense, please
Nov 12 14:25:14 <RichardBronosky> it is a real name.
Nov 12 14:25:45 <RichardBronosky> Anonymity be damned is my motto.
Nov 12 14:25:46 <zoolooc> gah, I hope it's not all python :-)
Nov 12 14:26:35 <RichardBronosky> I just started using python.  I'm learning that there are really 2 kinds of languages out there...
Nov 12 14:26:45 <JimH> folks, possibly silly question, when's the sdk due? I thought it was supposed to be today, is it another "wait for the Americans to wake up" events?
Nov 12 14:26:53 <RichardBronosky> those that Microsoft create, and the rest.
Nov 12 14:27:06 <RichardBronosky> I learned C and C++ in college...
Nov 12 14:27:35 <RichardBronosky> With that knowledge, I can do anything that isn't VB based.
Nov 12 14:27:54 <Stephmw> JimH: aye, mountain view times
Nov 12 14:28:03 <RichardBronosky> yup!
Nov 12 14:28:32 <RichardBronosky> keep your eye on http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/developers.html
Nov 12 14:28:47 <zoolooc> Richard, now I realize you posted about the LiveCDs in that vmware thread, and I replied not to loose Gentoo from focus
Nov 12 14:29:40 <ScaredyCat> Monday, 12 November 2007, 06:29:50
Nov 12 14:29:41 <RichardBronosky> right, I recognized your name.
Nov 12 14:29:45 <zoolooc> it shouldn't be difficult to do that, as there are HowTos describing the same tools they use for the official Gentoo LiveCDs
Nov 12 14:29:45 <RichardBronosky> http://www.timetemperature.com/tzca/mountain_view.shtml
Nov 12 14:30:01 <RichardBronosky> yeah.
Nov 12 14:31:59 <RichardBronosky> I may base my Android SDK VM on http://www.tuxdistro.com/torrents-details.php?id=422
Nov 12 14:33:16 <ScaredyCat> assuming it doesn't come as a vm already?
Nov 12 14:33:25 <RichardBronosky> exactly.
Nov 12 14:33:47 <RichardBronosky> I like what Trolltech did with the Greenphone SDK.
Nov 12 14:34:04 * ScaredyCat thinks it would make some sense to do it that way, for ease of installation
Nov 12 14:34:05 * matt_c is a big fan of the Maemo/scratchbox way.
Nov 12 14:34:05 <RichardBronosky> If OHA doesn't do it, I will.
Nov 12 14:34:28 <ScaredyCat> even windows users could develop then
Nov 12 14:34:32 <zoolooc> a portage overlay with ebuilds for the necessary tools and the sdk would be the best common basis for development on gentoo, be it on a native installation, or if you want to create LiveCDs or VMs
Nov 12 14:34:37 <RichardBronosky> I want everyone to be able to hack at this.
Nov 12 14:35:02 <zoolooc> yup, yup
Nov 12 14:35:14 <tarekesber> afternoon
Nov 12 14:35:20 <ScaredyCat> gentoo ... eeeww
Nov 12 14:35:41 <RichardBronosky> I've worked on a lot of projects that took days to get my [distro X] ready
Nov 12 14:35:47 <zoolooc> prefer klick-buntu?
Nov 12 14:36:14 <RichardBronosky> Ubuntu took me about a week to get it ready for f-spot development.
Nov 12 14:36:37 <RichardBronosky> That was the worst experience I've had.
Nov 12 14:36:46 <ScaredyCat> no, I use SuSe
Nov 12 14:36:53 <ScaredyCat> you may all hate me now :)
Nov 12 14:37:20 <zoolooc> no, why? you're damned enough with that... :-)
Nov 12 14:37:27 <RichardBronosky> the point of doing development in a VM is not to care about a full featured blah blah blah...
Nov 12 14:37:43 <ScaredyCat> hehe..
Nov 12 14:37:46 <RichardBronosky> it is to have a lean, agile dev env.
Nov 12 14:37:55 <ScaredyCat> it's gotta be better than ubuntu...
Nov 12 14:38:31 * ScaredyCat pokes at google people....
Nov 12 14:38:37 <zoolooc> haven't used ubuuntu, just SuSe years ago, but since Gentoo, I even cross-compiled it for my NAS
Nov 12 14:38:38 <ScaredyCat> wakey wakey
Nov 12 14:38:38 <RichardBronosky> to be able to pause the VM when your wife gives you a chore.
Nov 12 14:38:47 <RichardBronosky> and resume when she goes to bed.
Nov 12 14:38:52 <zoolooc> that's the point with Gentoo, you can do anything
Nov 12 14:39:16 <ScaredyCat> zoolooc: the same can be said for most distros... you just ahve to have the time
Nov 12 14:39:22 * BabelO agree with RichardBronosky the WAF is very high in familly
Nov 12 14:39:26 <zoolooc> in a VM (for those with a fast enough machine), even better
Nov 12 14:39:48 <ScaredyCat> I didn't fancy hanging around for a few days compiling gentoo... suse went on, everyhitng worked out of the box...
Nov 12 14:40:03 <matt_c> gentoo is great for burning in hardware :)
Nov 12 14:40:48 <RichardBronosky> once you get gentoo installed though, I find that dependancy resolution is better than anything else out their.
Nov 12 14:40:57 <RichardBronosky> s/their/there/
Nov 12 14:40:58 <zoolooc> ScaredyCat: yes, but I rather use this time to help myself out (create some new ebuilds, if necessary, patch, if necessary) instead of waiting for the distribution maintainer to release binary updates (which then also must update lots of system libraries)
Nov 12 14:41:25 <RichardBronosky> zooloocL EXACTLY
Nov 12 14:42:12 <RichardBronosky> That's what killed me on Ubuntu.
Nov 12 14:42:17 <zoolooc> RichardBronosky: that's the point, and yes, there can be some dependency hell in Gentoo, but when one learns how to deal with scrips like revdep-rebuild, it#s hard to break the system
Nov 12 14:42:38 <ScaredyCat> my lappy us usually building something anyway... updates happen when they happen, unless I particularly need a specific version I'm not too bothered
Nov 12 14:43:19 <RichardBronosky> well, developers always need a specific version of something.
Nov 12 14:43:22 <ScaredyCat> I couldn't use ubuntu... eveytime there was a kernel upgrade the sources wouldn;t appear for ages, meaning my vmware install was shafted
Nov 12 14:43:24 <zoolooc> so for now, I don't want to use anything else, except for embedded devices, where I would generate the whole thing on gentoo anyway, except if it has a matured deployment system (like OpenEmbedded)
Nov 12 14:43:32 <RichardBronosky> I we rarely find it in the repo.
Nov 12 14:43:49 <edcba> is it out ?
Nov 12 14:43:50 <ScaredyCat> openembedded is horrible
Nov 12 14:43:56 <ScaredyCat> edcba: no
Nov 12 14:44:03 <edcba> why is there activity ? :)
Nov 12 14:44:29 <ScaredyCat> someone spoke and the 20,000 people in here woke up :)
Nov 12 14:45:10 <ScaredyCat> well, 42... which curiously is *the* answer
Nov 12 14:45:30 <Sput> well, it says in the topic it's still 2 days :p
Nov 12 14:45:46 * matt_c kinda likes Arch's build system (while we're ranting about OSes)
Nov 12 14:46:09 <RichardBronosky> who has ops here?  We need to update the channel topic.
Nov 12 14:46:23 <Stephmw> ScaredyCat: aye, vmware installs on ubuntu are... shafted generally
Nov 12 14:46:24 <ScaredyCat> there's a chanserv
Nov 12 14:46:32 <Stephmw> RichardBronosky: da google reps do
Nov 12 14:46:33 <RichardBronosky> it makes this look like a dead/sleeping channel.
Nov 12 14:46:47 <Writchie|laptop> they are sleeping
Nov 12 14:47:16 <RichardBronosky> No... this channel wasn't started by Google was it?
Nov 12 14:47:21 <Stephmw> sure was
Nov 12 14:47:26 <RichardBronosky> Hmm.
Nov 12 14:47:27 <ScaredyCat> google it
Nov 12 14:47:28 <ScaredyCat> :P
Nov 12 14:47:33 <Stephmw> hahaha
Nov 12 14:47:50 <RichardBronosky> There are som many unofficial sites and forums out there... I just assume.
Nov 12 14:47:51 <Stephmw> the channel logs are provided curtesy of rwhitby
Nov 12 14:48:00 <Stephmw> (and hence unoficial)
Nov 12 14:48:43 <ScaredyCat> oooh sdk available .....
Nov 12 14:48:53 * Stephmw boogies
Nov 12 14:49:03 <RichardBronosky> where?!?!
Nov 12 14:49:12 * ScaredyCat giggles
Nov 12 14:49:47 <ScaredyCat> I suppose we're assuming it'll appear at 9am their time..
Nov 12 14:49:58 <ScaredyCat> rather than half way through the day/
Nov 12 14:50:12 <Stephmw> announcements typically land around 11am/1pm, no?
Nov 12 14:51:30 <RichardBronosky> check out http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/media_room.html
Nov 12 14:51:56 <RichardBronosky> [Press Conference] Replay available from 3:00 PM ET Monday, November 5th through 11:59 PM ET Monday, November 12th
Nov 12 14:52:20 <RichardBronosky> so I would guess 11:59PM ET to be the release time.
Nov 12 14:52:42 <ScaredyCat> gah!
Nov 12 14:52:49 <RichardBronosky> that would suck huh?
Nov 12 14:53:20 <RichardBronosky> maybe there will be a 12 hour overlap.  (11:59AM)
Nov 12 14:55:33 * Stephmw shrugs
Nov 12 14:55:51 <Stephmw> Google are going to do a presentation for it this Wednesday at Future of Mobile in London
Nov 12 14:55:58 <Stephmw> so I do hope they release before that
Nov 12 14:57:28 <RichardBronosky> Yeah, and I want them to say "In the past 2 days we've seen NNN thousand downloads of the SDK, and N hundred apps created by third parties."
Nov 12 14:58:27 <Stephmw> that last item might be wishful thinking
Nov 12 14:58:29 <RichardBronosky> "And there is even a group that claims to be close to releasing an automated installer for Android on the iPhone!"
Nov 12 14:59:34 <RichardBronosky> created as in code.google.com projects
Nov 12 15:00:45 <ScaredyCat> yeah right...
Nov 12 15:01:28 * CM joins the gentoo club ;)
Nov 12 15:01:42 <RichardBronosky> ScaredyCat: what part?
Nov 12 15:02:03 <ScaredyCat> installer for iphone...
Nov 12 15:02:14 <ScaredyCat> apple will kill that in a heartbeat
Nov 12 15:09:59 * Sput is also a member of the Gentoo club
Nov 12 15:10:40 <Stephmw> iirc the current UK firmware version for the iPhone insta-bricks if it detects 3rd party stuff
Nov 12 15:10:46 <ScaredyCat> s/Gentoo/Blue Oyster/
Nov 12 15:15:41 <CM> ScaredyCat: Don't fear the Reaper!
Nov 12 15:15:53 <ScaredyCat> lol
Nov 12 15:15:55 <ScaredyCat> no
Nov 12 15:16:12 <ScaredyCat> that would be Blue Oyster Cult
Nov 12 15:16:39 <ScaredyCat> The Blue Oyster Bar is from Police academt
Nov 12 15:16:41 <ScaredyCat> The Blue Oyster Bar is from Police academy
Nov 12 15:16:48 <CM> Ah, true
Nov 12 15:21:24 <tarekesber> Stephmw: haven't they already unlocked the firmware version released on the UK iPhone?
Nov 12 15:23:38 <RichardBronosky> is it "rude" to go url diving on www.openhandsetalliance.com
Nov 12 15:23:51 <RichardBronosky> I'm feeling impatient.
Nov 12 15:24:57 <Stephmw> tarekesber: I may be behind the times... :)
Nov 12 15:25:19 <RichardBronosky> I'm tempted to write a script to do a dictionary attack.  It probably wouldn't be fruitful though.
Nov 12 15:26:56 <RichardBronosky> HA!!! Topic for #openmoko is: The OpenMoko Project - http://openmoko.org - Neo1973 GTA01 on sale at https://direct.openmoko.com || Do not ask about GTA02 (December as of last update - yes, that's with WiFi, and no, there's no cam). Latest official update is at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates - Also, don't bring up Android for your own safety, thanks
Nov 12 15:27:23 <ScaredyCat> we know... most of us are in that channel too
Nov 12 15:27:34 * ScaredyCat points at neo
Nov 12 15:28:52 <zoolooc> maybe a 3rd to 5th neo model from now on, would be interesting enough...
Nov 12 15:29:06 <ScaredyCat> yes... if there is a 3rd
Nov 12 15:29:23 <zoolooc> right
Nov 12 15:29:35 <ScaredyCat> but hey, i runs scummvm - whcih is good enough for me :D
Nov 12 15:29:52 <zoolooc> the current one looks ugly to me, and misses important hardware specs
Nov 12 15:30:30 <ScaredyCat> it's not so bad to look at, it's just the dev platform in a pretty(relative) case...
Nov 12 15:30:55 <zoolooc> that's why I got the Kaiser, was tired of waiting for a decent pda-phone
Nov 12 15:31:03 <ScaredyCat> but it does work, and the fact that you can run either openmoko or qtopia is a bonus
Nov 12 15:31:17 <ScaredyCat> mine dual boots atm
Nov 12 15:32:48 <zoolooc> yes, it might be ok for dev purposes, but then having devs paying for it (if it shipped with "the other" firmware too, which just worked, then yes, it would have been an open, dev-friendly product, but still a "product" one can also use for useful things
Nov 12 15:33:36 <ScaredyCat> yeah, well, it's still better than that crap SE p910i I had...
Nov 12 15:42:52 <ScaredyCat> where are those googloids
Nov 12 15:45:46 <Stephmw> running around like headless chickens?
Nov 12 15:51:17 * CM thinks they're busy eating tasty google-food
Nov 12 15:52:47 <ScaredyCat> yeah, I'm kinda glad I don't work there... I'd be as big as a house
Nov 12 15:53:24 <ScaredyCat> who says 5 cooked meals a day is too many
Nov 12 15:57:32 <RichardBronosky> When I worked for Yahoo! here in Atlanta...
Nov 12 15:57:58 <RichardBronosky> we didn't have a cafe like the Sunnyvale office...
Nov 12 15:58:19 <RichardBronosky> so we used the budget to stock the breakroom with free snacks.
Nov 12 15:59:15 <ScaredyCat> 'snacks' means family sized pizza, I hope :)
Nov 12 15:59:51 <RichardBronosky> any microwave food you can think of, ice cream, candy, chips, beef jerky, gatorade, snapple, frapacino
Nov 12 16:00:12 <RichardBronosky> It was a gorge-fest... not good for me.
Nov 12 16:00:19 <ScaredyCat> I wouldn;t microwave any of those :P
Nov 12 16:00:27 <CM> Hehe
Nov 12 16:02:46 <RichardBronosky> I'd like to see the google analytics on the OHA/developers page today!
Nov 12 16:03:04 <ScaredyCat> missed a trick there, no ads :)
Nov 12 16:21:10 <rangen> downloads available.
Nov 12 16:23:27 <BabelO> hey download is fast enought for a first day ;)
Nov 12 16:23:58 <edcba> 300kB :)
Nov 12 16:25:24 <ozarka> 100kb  :-(
Nov 12 16:25:28 <BabelO> lol
Nov 12 16:25:30 <Stephmw> Eclipse plugin, yum
Nov 12 16:25:40 <BabelO> java machine, no surprise
Nov 12 16:25:48 <ozarka> Everybody back off until my download finishes.
Nov 12 16:25:57 <ozarka> I'll let you know when it's OK to hit the server.
Nov 12 16:26:03 <Stephmw> I've seen native SDKs that use Eclipse for ARM dev too *shrug*
Nov 12 16:26:11 <RichardBronosky> 1300kbs!
Nov 12 16:26:58 <RichardBronosky> I got the Mac and Linux DLs in <2 minutes
Nov 12 16:28:01 <ozarka> So it looks like the C/C++ libraries are exposed as well.
Nov 12 16:28:18 <ozarka> Does that mean we can write non-Java apps?
Nov 12 16:28:39 <ozarka> And WTF is a Dalvik VM?
Nov 12 16:29:47 <RichardBronosky> It's exactly as I feared!  Mac OS X dependency problems!
Nov 12 16:29:53 <ScaredyCat> krsjthjdykjytge
Nov 12 16:30:29 <cutmasta> sdk releases? :)
Nov 12 16:30:32 <cutmasta> sdk released? :)
Nov 12 16:30:37 <ScaredyCat> es
Nov 12 16:30:38 <ScaredyCat> eys
Nov 12 16:30:39 <ScaredyCat> eys
Nov 12 16:30:40 <ScaredyCat> yes
Nov 12 16:30:54 <zoolooc> so it's java?
Nov 12 16:30:55 <cutmasta> nice
Nov 12 16:30:57 <edcba> can't seomone change topic
Nov 12 16:30:57 <matt_c> RichardBronosky: I haven't tried building anything but the emulator runs fine on Leopard.
Nov 12 16:30:58 <edcba> tes
Nov 12 16:31:00 <edcba> yes java
Nov 12 16:31:04 * ScaredyCat is getting 700kb/s
Nov 12 16:31:10 <cutmasta> someone tried the sdk on linux?
Nov 12 16:31:13 <ozarka> < 100 kbs
Nov 12 16:31:24 <parti> ill try it in 2 mins ;)
Nov 12 16:32:25 <cutmasta> also getting 700k/s
Nov 12 16:32:36 <zoolooc> will try it tonight on gentoo... (well, sort of, I'm just into c/c++)
Nov 12 16:32:51 <zoolooc> heck, I want the kernel booting on my kaiser, first
Nov 12 16:33:00 * ScaredyCat vomits @ java
Nov 12 16:33:11 <edcba> nice emulator :)
Nov 12 16:33:25 <ozarka> ScaredyCat:  Don't worry about the Java.  You're job is to get it running on my Neo.  :-)
Nov 12 16:33:30 <zoolooc> ScaredyCat: I need some pills, too :-)
Nov 12 16:36:02 <ScaredyCat> hehehe
Nov 12 16:38:46 <Stephmw> hmmm, so annotations means Java 5+
Nov 12 16:39:06 <cutmasta> Stephmw, think so
Nov 12 16:39:19 <Stephmw> that's pretty sweet
Nov 12 16:40:22 <parti> anyway, it works and looks really good on linux (2.6.23), but im gonna read docs now, have NO idea what the hell this is
Nov 12 16:40:41 <rangen> ozarka: where u spot c++ libs?
Nov 12 16:40:49 <RichardBronosky> Android on OS X http://www.flickr.com/photos/richardbronosky/1985521821/
Nov 12 16:40:52 <ozarka> rangen:  FAQ
Nov 12 16:41:26 <ScaredyCat> :/
Nov 12 16:41:36 <ozarka> rangen:  Sorry.  Try here:  http://code.google.com/android/what-is-android.html
Nov 12 16:41:53 <Suisui> is there a way to install android on PPC Macs?
Nov 12 16:42:03 <ozarka> Under Libraries:  Android includes a set of C/C++ libraries used by various components of the Android system. These capabilities are exposed to developers through the Android application framework.
Nov 12 16:42:12 <kristian-m> RichardBronosky see: http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/images/AndroidSDK.png
Nov 12 16:44:18 <rangen> ozarka: yeah. too bad the current release does not expose them (from installation doc): Android does not currently support development of third party applications in native code (C/C++).
Nov 12 16:44:43 <ozarka> :-(
Nov 12 16:44:47 <rangen> i wonder how well the system handles low mem situations
Nov 12 16:45:10 <rangen> there are mechanisms for application to handle these situations, wonder how well they work in practise
Nov 12 16:46:28 <cutmasta> emu looks nice and works well with ubuntu
Nov 12 16:46:34 <cutmasta> the maps application is cool
Nov 12 16:47:26 <cutmasta> nice effects for zooming in and out
Nov 12 16:48:23 <parti> its the same as the googlemaps mobile app
Nov 12 16:48:53 <ScaredyCat> bastards, I don;t like eclipse!
Nov 12 16:49:29 <cutmasta> parti, did not see the mobile app anywhere ;)
Nov 12 16:49:52 <cutmasta> someone tried here to set up a new android project using eclipse wizzard?
Nov 12 16:49:53 <parti> cutmasta, http://www.google.com/gmm
Nov 12 16:50:11 <cutmasta> parti, ah :) thx
Nov 12 16:50:44 <kristian-m> rangen there is a libc in the architecture diagram, so...
Nov 12 16:51:05 <cutmasta> the eclipse wizzard seems broken
Nov 12 16:51:30 <Stephmw> sensitive to eclipse versions?
Nov 12 16:52:10 <ozarka> It says you need 3.3, but I got mine working in 3.2.2
Nov 12 16:52:18 <cutmasta> ah , it works
Nov 12 16:52:23 <cutmasta> restartet eclipse
Nov 12 16:52:52 <cutmasta> but the dialod is missing the error text on my installation i f you dont fill out all required fields
Nov 12 16:54:39 <ozarka> So is it full Java or a subset like J2ME?
Nov 12 16:54:44 <RichardBronosky> I've never tried eclipse.  If I'm only interested in it for Android, which should I DL? http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/
Nov 12 16:54:46 <ozarka> I see the reflect package...
Nov 12 16:55:16 <cutmasta> ozarka, i hope its full java
Nov 12 16:55:39 <cutmasta> RichardBronosky, just try the latest stable, for me its working
Nov 12 16:55:52 <ozarka> Only appears to be one package from javax.microedition
Nov 12 16:56:12 <RichardBronosky> there are 4 different packages though, 2 are for Java.
Nov 12 16:56:26 <cutmasta> ozarka, i could imagine that it is full java
Nov 12 16:56:37 <cutmasta> because the cpus on mobile phones are getting faster and faster
Nov 12 16:56:38 <RichardBronosky> theres a Java Dev and Java EE Dev
Nov 12 16:57:29 <Stephmw> RichardBronosky: you'll want the standard Java Dev
Nov 12 16:57:37 <Stephmw> EE is Enterprise Edition... for serverside stuff
Nov 12 16:58:03 <cutmasta> jap
Nov 12 16:58:53 <zoolooc> cu later folks
Nov 12 17:06:51 <rangen> nice competion:  http://code.google.com/android/adc.html
Nov 12 17:07:18 <Writchie> so none of the ASL source code is being released - or am I missing something!
Nov 12 17:08:43 <rangen> Writchie: ASL?
Nov 12 17:08:48 <Writchie> Apache
Nov 12 17:09:41 <don-o> this conference call is a round-robin press release reading
Nov 12 17:13:21 <don-o> the UI is simple and functional. the browser especially.
Nov 12 17:16:58 <morrildl> The topic is inaccurate.
Nov 12 17:17:00 <davidw> yep
Nov 12 17:18:28 <Writchie> when will the secret VM be released?
Nov 12 17:19:23 <morrildl> Writchie: secret?
Nov 12 17:19:33 <morrildl> No secret.  :)  The VM is name Dalvik
Nov 12 17:19:40 <morrildl> It's all in the docs
Nov 12 17:19:49 <Writchie> the VM spec is in the docs?
Nov 12 17:20:02 <morrildl> A description of Dalvik is in the docs, yeah
Nov 12 17:20:07 <ozarka> morrildl: How much of the Java API is supported?
Nov 12 17:20:25 <CM> Dalvik is an odd name
Nov 12 17:20:27 <ozarka> Is it a subset like J2ME?
Nov 12 17:20:41 <CM> Valley+bay in swedish.. ;)
Nov 12 17:20:56 <morrildl> ozarka: the API coverage is as comprehensive as makes sense for a mobile device
Nov 12 17:21:27 <morrildl> For example, you'll find that many of the File operations aren't implemented, since for hte most part apps can't do much to the filesystem on a mobile device
Nov 12 17:24:10 <ScaredyCat> wizard doesn't appear to work
Nov 12 17:25:10 <ozarka> morrildl: Will it be possible to write C/C++ apps?
Nov 12 17:26:31 <ozarka> I see a reference to the libraries, but in other places it seems to imply that all apps will be Java.
Nov 12 17:26:46 * davidw is going to see how long it takes to port Hecl ...
Nov 12 17:26:46 <morrildl> ozarka: the SDK currently only supports applications written in the Java programming language
Nov 12 17:27:17 <morrildl> ozarka: we have only focused on that, to date.
Nov 12 17:27:22 <ozarka> Do you have any tips for people wanted to port from Java or J2ME?
Nov 12 17:29:25 <Writchie> looks like symlinks in the windows zip file
Nov 12 17:30:30 <don-o> the application structure is unique. the Intent and IntentFilter setup is very interestign.
Nov 12 17:31:06 <don-o> plus the Service class for long-running processes. i'm loving it. :)
Nov 12 17:31:27 <don-o> "Applications can store their data in files, an SQLite database, or any other mechanism that makes sense."
Nov 12 17:31:51 <davidw> http://code.google.com/android/samples/LunarLander/src/com/google/android/lunarlander/LunarLander.html
Nov 12 17:32:01 <mypapit> wow
Nov 12 17:32:06 <mypapit> which device supports android?
Nov 12 17:32:12 <davidw> looks like it's not at all similar to j2me in terms of the UI code
Nov 12 17:32:24 <don-o> mypapit: Windows Vista devices running the emulator :)
Nov 12 17:32:32 <mypapit> :p
Nov 12 17:32:46 <Stephmw> morrildl: will android support running J2ME games?
Nov 12 17:33:02 <mypapit> thought the device (or atleast  runtime) was already out
Nov 12 17:33:43 <Stephmw> davidw: no, and the VM supports Java 5 constructs
Nov 12 17:33:52 <davidw> yeah, I saw that too
Nov 12 17:33:53 <Stephmw> davidw: I saw annotations in their code
Nov 12 17:34:28 <CM> How portable is the VM?
Nov 12 17:34:38 <RichardBronosky> I REALLY wish I would have know to get familiar with eclipse and Java!
Nov 12 17:35:23 <RichardBronosky> I didn't do CARP this weekend!  I could have started developing today, but instead I have to study!
Nov 12 17:35:32 <RichardBronosky> pisses me off.
Nov 12 17:35:42 <don-o> whats the mechanism to load new android apps? are they distributed in jar files?
Nov 12 17:35:45 <Gamara> RichardBronosky: Watch the Dan Morrill video, he'll walk you through it.
Nov 12 17:39:50 <davidw>         public static final int app_name=0x7f040000;
Nov 12 17:39:52 <davidw> weird
Nov 12 17:39:58 <davidw> http://code.google.com/android/intro/hello-android.html
Nov 12 17:40:29 <davidw> that looks like a memory address to me
Nov 12 17:41:35 <fcarvalho> http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=1FJHYqE0RDg
Nov 12 17:41:39 <edcba> YouTube - Android Demo
Nov 12 17:41:57 <Writchie> morrildl: I've been through every file with "Dalvik" in it and there appears to be no specifications for the VM on which everything depends - does google intend to release the specs for the VM byte code and if so when?
Nov 12 17:42:19 <ScaredyCat> er,
Nov 12 17:42:40 <don-o> Writchie: the bytecode is most likely unchanged java bytecode, or they would have to give you a compiler with the SDK
Nov 12 17:42:43 <ScaredyCat> when you run an app in the emu - how long is it supposed to take to start...
Nov 12 17:43:05 <don-o> Writchie: the sourcecode to Dalvik is the question.
Nov 12 17:43:07 <cutmasta> 1-3 sekunden
Nov 12 17:43:08 <ozarka> A few secs for me... at least for Hello Android.
Nov 12 17:43:12 <Writchie> don-o: most definitely not - its a custom VM
Nov 12 17:43:13 <ScaredyCat> all I'm getting is the 'android' followed by the cylon bar
Nov 12 17:43:21 <don-o> Writchie: custom written VM, same bytecode
Nov 12 17:43:35 <cutmasta> ScaredyCat, any log entries?
Nov 12 17:43:37 <alp> any idea where i can find the sources for the "Sk" graphics library?
Nov 12 17:44:02 <Writchie> "Android bytecode"
Nov 12 17:44:16 <don-o> Writchie: what would be the advantage of using the java language syntax to compile to bytecode that is not compatible with a regular java vm?
Nov 12 17:44:24 <don-o> Writchie: well okay maybe you're right :) but it still sounds crazy.
Nov 12 17:44:34 <ScaredyCat> where can I find those cutmasta ?
Nov 12 17:44:55 <don-o> Writchie: you're saying the SDK has its own compiler? i didnt see one.
Nov 12 17:45:01 <Writchie> not crazy, brilliant?
Nov 12 17:45:24 <don-o> Writchie: brilliant? why not rewrite linux while they're at it. and reinvent round things that help cars roll :)
Nov 12 17:45:48 <morrildl> Writchie: this is just an early look at the SDK.  Source code will be released later, closer to when the final version is released
Nov 12 17:46:14 <Writchie> what about a spec?
Nov 12 17:46:19 <don-o> if the SDK is open source, doesnt that mean we should get source code with it?
Nov 12 17:46:27 <cutmasta> ScaredyCat, do you run the emulator within eclipse?
Nov 12 17:46:32 <ScaredyCat> oh, it worked, it just took forever
Nov 12 17:46:33 <cutmasta> or from shell
Nov 12 17:46:35 <cutmasta> ah
Nov 12 17:46:36 <cutmasta> olk
Nov 12 17:46:38 <ScaredyCat> eclipse
Nov 12 17:46:44 <don-o> Sergey was just extolling the virtues of open source - and the SDK doesnt come with source?
Nov 12 17:46:54 <morrildl> don-o: the dx command rewrites Java bytecode files into the bytecode format used by Dalvik
Nov 12 17:47:08 <don-o> morrildl: interestin.
Nov 12 17:47:13 <Writchie> VM to VM translator
Nov 12 17:47:13 <ScaredyCat> where the vm ?
Nov 12 17:47:37 <davidw> morrildl, whats' up with the hex addresses?
Nov 12 17:47:46 <morrildl> don-o: correct, unfortunately there's no source code with this SDK release
Nov 12 17:47:52 <morrildl> davidw: hex addresses where?
Nov 12 17:48:05 <don-o> this is great stuff, but its going to have to prove its open source mettle before i write apps. $10 million dollars or not :)
Nov 12 17:48:15 * Writchie has limo deja vu
Nov 12 17:48:51 <davidw> morrildl, http://code.google.com/android/intro/hello-android.html
Nov 12 17:48:59 <davidw>         public static final int main=0x7f030000;
Nov 12 17:49:01 <don-o> morrildl: whats the licence the SDK is distributed under?
Nov 12 17:49:09 <davidw> don-o, looks like Apache
Nov 12 17:49:33 <don-o> morrildl: i retract that quesion and read the "LICENCE" file instead :)
Nov 12 17:49:52 <don-o> davidw: the SDK is under the 'ANDROID SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT KIT' licence
Nov 12 17:50:00 <morrildl> don-o: The terms and conditions for the early-look SDK are here: http://code.google.com/android/terms.html
Nov 12 17:50:16 <morrildl> don-o: when the source is released, it will be Apache 2.0
Nov 12 17:50:36 <Gamara> With some gpl and lgpl components.
Nov 12 17:50:54 <Gamara> but majority is apache.
Nov 12 17:51:04 <parti> http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ObTqIiYfE <- why no mac keyboard & screen!@!~ ;p
Nov 12 17:51:07 <edcba> YouTube - A first hand look at building an Android application
Nov 12 17:51:33 <morrildl> Gamara: correct
Nov 12 17:51:54 <don-o> "Until the SDK is released under an open source license, you may not extract the source code or create a derivative work of the SDK." thats a curious form of releasing software
Nov 12 17:51:58 <Writchie>  can we expect binary first source maybe someday to be the normal release pattern?
Nov 12 17:53:00 <Sput> hmm, if the SDK contains GPL and LGPL components, is it even legal to release it without source now?
Nov 12 17:53:08 <don-o> wow. the end-user privacy policy in the licence is a nice move. (section 4.3)
Nov 12 17:53:32 <parti> its early access guys common its all good ;)
Nov 12 17:53:44 <cutmasta> nice
Nov 12 17:53:49 <Writchie> these are not intended to be derogatory comments. I think people are trying to understand the terms.
Nov 12 17:53:52 <morrildl> Sput: the GPL and LGPL sources were released several days ago
Nov 12 17:53:54 <cutmasta> json is included and apache commons http client
Nov 12 17:53:59 <cutmasta> thats all i need :)
Nov 12 17:53:59 <Sput> ah k
Nov 12 17:54:02 <Sput> I'm just curious :)
Nov 12 17:54:03 <cutmasta> nice
Nov 12 17:54:14 <fcarvalho> http://git.android.com/?p=linux-msm.git
Nov 12 17:55:03 <ScaredyCat> don-o: it's google, you have no privacy ;)
Nov 12 17:55:04 * cutmasta will start to write an open-xchange connector for the http api
Nov 12 17:56:52 <don-o> the top-bar notification thingy in the "Android Demo" is very cool. was that SMS or some instant message?
Nov 12 17:57:03 <davidw> yeah, the immediate open-sourceness of something like this is pretty cool
Nov 12 17:57:22 <don-o> davidw: except that it isnt opensource, yet.
Nov 12 17:57:46 <Writchie> it's kinda like open source for microsoft windows ATM, IMNSHO
Nov 12 17:57:57 <davidw> well, not yet, but I don't think they can back out of that without catching huge amounts of flack, so I trust it will happen in short order
Nov 12 17:58:23 <morrildl> fcarvalho: that's actually only the MSM-7K kernel patches
Nov 12 17:58:25 <Gamara> We're not backing out of that. Code will be released over time.
Nov 12 17:59:02 <morrildl> fcarvalho: additional sources are here:  http://code.google.com/p/android/
Nov 12 17:59:12 <fcarvalho> hum, thanks
Nov 12 17:59:15 <don-o> the all-screen phone in Android Demo is nice looking :)
Nov 12 17:59:26 <cutmasta> jap
Nov 12 18:00:48 <Writchie> is the lack of 480x640 and 720x480 an intentional slap at openmoko and nokia ;-)
Nov 12 18:01:22 <Gamara> That's just silly.
Nov 12 18:01:23 <ScaredyCat> all-screen ?
Nov 12 18:10:54 <ivan`> maybe it's an iphone with black masking tape
Nov 12 18:11:22 <cutmasta> lol
Nov 12 18:11:45 <don-o> lol
Nov 12 18:15:46 <don-o> worldtime with OpenGL++
Nov 12 18:17:01 <don-o> full-screen streetview++
Nov 12 18:24:51 <ScaredyCat> see, there is no spoon
Nov 12 18:34:17 <Tominator> hi!
Nov 12 18:34:33 <Tominator> does anybody know if there is audio-support in android?
Nov 12 18:35:44 <morrildl> Tominator: there should be
Nov 12 18:35:58 <morrildl> It doesn't yet work quite right in the emulator with certain system configurations
Nov 12 18:39:09 <don-o> apparently im going to have to dust-off my java-thinking cap.
Nov 12 18:39:40 <davidw> don-o, with java5 stuff... I bet things like Jruby will run, not to mention Hecl, which should be easy to port
Nov 12 18:39:46 <cutmasta> Tominator, only playback support
Nov 12 18:40:05 <Tominator> cutmasta: where can I find it?
Nov 12 18:40:15 <cutmasta> mom
Nov 12 18:40:35 <wom-> how do I put files to emulators file system. like pictures to see how they look in imageswitcher?
Nov 12 18:40:52 <don-o> davidw: interesting.
Nov 12 18:41:09 <cutmasta> Tominator, http://code.google.com/android/toolbox/apis/media.html
Nov 12 18:41:18 <davidw> I'm going to start working on Hecl tonight
Nov 12 18:41:23 <Tominator> cutmasta: thanks a lot ;)
Nov 12 18:41:50 <cutmasta> Tominator, np
Nov 12 18:54:05 <Saxgod> wom- : 'adb push' from the commandline, or there's a UI for it in the ddms tool.
Nov 12 18:54:23 <wom-> Saxgod: thanks
Nov 12 18:56:01 <puckett> Java Mobility is a good podcast.  Here's one on hecl: http://today.java.net/pub/a/today/2007/08/20/javamobility-podcast16.html
Nov 12 18:56:21 <don-o> gak, not another language.
Nov 12 18:56:38 <don-o> is there a javascript interpreter somewhere in the android platform?
Nov 12 18:56:41 <davidw> puckett, it's a miracle I didn't come across worse, as tired as I was
Nov 12 18:56:51 <don-o> i assume so because of the google maps demo
Nov 12 18:57:22 <davidw> don-o, I guess it's a question of what it's got access to.  With hardware that robust, I'm sure things like JRuby, Jython, etc... should be easy to port
Nov 12 18:57:25 <puckett> Thought it was fine.  :)
Nov 12 18:57:35 <davidw> thanks!
Nov 12 18:58:01 <cutmasta> nice
Nov 12 18:58:09 <cutmasta> the android is based on a linux 2.6 kernel
Nov 12 18:58:38 <don-o> cutmasta: i get the feeling that google would like to diminish that fact as much as possible and keep people on the java platform.
Nov 12 18:58:39 <cutmasta> so every mobile which run smoothly a linux 2.6 system are possible candidates
Nov 12 18:59:05 <CM> cutmasta: Assuming that there's drivers for it..
Nov 12 18:59:05 <cutmasta> don-o, i personally think that the java platform is a good choice
Nov 12 18:59:12 <cutmasta> CM, of course:)
Nov 12 18:59:19 <morrildl> don-o: a webkit-based browser is included, with JavaScript support
Nov 12 18:59:41 <morrildl> don-o: however, note that the Maps demo is an Android app, not an AJAX app
Nov 12 18:59:54 <cutmasta> ah
Nov 12 19:00:07 <don-o> morrildl: is there a gui element for a browser window? something you can define in the view XML? (sorry i havent got the android-specific terms down)
Nov 12 19:00:14 <cutmasta> also thought that the demo is just a "browser" demo
Nov 12 19:01:52 <davidw> don-o, if it's about keeping people on Java, you'd think they would have provided a way to run j2me apps.  I think it's more along the lines of java having a pretty good sandbox
Nov 12 19:02:54 <don-o> im just saying i dont think an openssh server will be running by default.
Nov 12 19:04:24 * don-o goes to Dan Morrill's android school
Nov 12 19:04:58 * CM hasn't seen any terminal app
Nov 12 19:05:14 <morrildl> don-o: the Android term would be a "View" which is your average "widget" concept
Nov 12 19:05:23 <morrildl> don-o: and yes, there is a BrowserView
Nov 12 19:05:52 <CM> don-o: And the Part 3 video shows a MapView :)
Nov 12 19:05:54 <morrildl> CM: what do you want to use a terminal for?
Nov 12 19:06:15 <meus> morrildl: ssh?
Nov 12 19:06:24 * CM nods at meus
Nov 12 19:06:31 <meus> this thing needs it badly
Nov 12 19:06:34 <morrildl> CM: you can run 'adb shell' from the command line to get a shell into the running emulator
Nov 12 19:06:48 <morrildl> If you wanted to poke around at what's in there, that's the way to do it
Nov 12 19:06:56 <CM> Ah, ok. Can that be run on the phone too?
Nov 12 19:06:59 * Sput wants a shell on his phone
Nov 12 19:07:07 <Tominator> What audio-types does MediaPlayer support?
Nov 12 19:07:10 <morrildl> CM: the emulator is as accurate as we can physically make it
Nov 12 19:07:12 <morrildl> CM: so, yes
Nov 12 19:07:15 * cutmasta needs a ssh client on android 
Nov 12 19:07:22 <CM> morrildl: Ah, thanks. Nice :)
Nov 12 19:07:47 <morrildl> cutmasta: we have some terminal and ssh code, that I believe is not included in this SDK
Nov 12 19:08:00 <cutmasta> :(
Nov 12 19:08:10 <morrildl> cutmasta: the goal of this early look is to let people start looking at the app development API
Nov 12 19:08:26 <morrildl> additional fun toys will come with later releases :)
Nov 12 19:08:35 <cutmasta> morrildl, yes, i understand that, and i think you did a great job for a beta
Nov 12 19:08:46 <meus> good job indeed :)
Nov 12 19:08:47 <morrildl> anyway, check out 'adb shell'
Nov 12 19:08:56 <morrildl> that should at least distract you for a while :)
Nov 12 19:08:57 <cutmasta> i did not expect that you release an eclipse plugin with a beta
Nov 12 19:09:12 <cutmasta> that was "wow, cool"
Nov 12 19:09:19 <morrildl> cutmasta: man, I love that plugin
Nov 12 19:09:26 <morrildl> meus: thanks :)
Nov 12 19:09:44 * morrildl thinks that's a best practice:  release a plugin with your tool
Nov 12 19:10:08 <cutmasta> morrildl, definitly, and theres no better way to debug as from within an ide
Nov 12 19:10:18 <swetland> morrildl: there are docs showing how to use the ddms view, stop and inspect processes running, attach the debugger, etc, no?
Nov 12 19:11:38 <cutmasta> morrildl, and tell your dev guys, that its great, that json and apache http client is included
Nov 12 19:11:43 <puckett> Glad it's based on Eclipse and not Netbeans (http://alblue.blogspot.com/2007/11/is-android-ide-based-on-netbeans.html) :)
Nov 12 19:11:58 <cutmasta> that was one of the things i hoped for
Nov 12 19:12:03 <cutmasta> good web app support
Nov 12 19:12:03 <jonbaer> hello
Nov 12 19:12:13 <ozarka> morrildl: Any advice for porting from j2me?
Nov 12 19:14:35 * don-o sees the ghostly hand of Sun giving Microsoft the middle finger via Android
Nov 12 19:14:58 <cutmasta> lol
Nov 12 19:16:07 <puckett> Any news from Steve "Android is just a press release!!1!!1" Ballmer?  :)
Nov 12 19:16:16 <cutmasta> lol
Nov 12 19:16:28 <CM> don-o: I see a total absense of SUN ;)
Nov 12 19:16:36 <ozarka> Yeah, now it's a press release and an emulator.
Nov 12 19:16:41 <janole> Well, is it much more then? :-P
Nov 12 19:16:51 <janole> lol, right.
Nov 12 19:16:59 <ozarka> I'm absolutely giddy from the sdk,
Nov 12 19:17:02 <Tominator> well I guess, steve thinks, it's a dream :)
Nov 12 19:17:03 <ivan`> is there any python in this android?
Nov 12 19:17:15 <puckett> I'm really liking what I see so far.
Nov 12 19:17:34 <Tominator> indeed
Nov 12 19:17:40 <davidw> if it were Sun, they'd manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, ala applets and j2me
Nov 12 19:17:48 <ozarka> but smart phones are a very crowded space (BlackBerry, WM, Symbian, iPhone) and I don't thing google backing is any guarantee of dominance, or even success.
Nov 12 19:18:26 <don-o> woah. "core power of the android platform" is C and C++
Nov 12 19:19:18 <cutmasta> don-o, sure. nothing is faster :)
Nov 12 19:19:27 <Zoolooc> hello folks
Nov 12 19:19:44 <Tominator> is it really linux behind?
Nov 12 19:19:46 <Zoolooc> so then where are the C and C++ libraries?
Nov 12 19:19:52 <cutmasta> Tominator, yes
Nov 12 19:19:56 <cutmasta> 2.6 kernel
Nov 12 19:19:56 <janole> well, nice thing would be getting Nokia to produce one mass market phone based on Android.
Nov 12 19:20:01 <cutmasta> as stated in a video
Nov 12 19:20:24 <robtaylor> Tominator: see http://code.google.com/android/what-is-android.html
Nov 12 19:20:33 <janole> they're playing aroung with maemo, so why not with Android?
Nov 12 19:20:46 <Tominator> I see :)
Nov 12 19:21:05 <janole> hm, otherwise this is just another niche product, or am I wrong?
Nov 12 19:22:03 <edcba> only TCP sockets ?
Nov 12 19:22:26 <ozarka> janole:  You're wrong.  HTC hardware could be "mass market".
Nov 12 19:22:38 <davidw> edcba, pretty normal for phones - on j2me, it's not really a good idea to stray too far from http, actually
Nov 12 19:23:53 <janole> ozarka: hm, sure. But I didn't mean "made for mass market", but "sold in large quantities".
Nov 12 19:23:54 <pandora--> well well well, and here we are
Nov 12 19:23:54 <cutmasta> morrildl, would it be possible to customize the whole menu of an android phone? so that i could write "my" personal android based mobile with only the applications i will need like messaging and email
Nov 12 19:24:10 * pandora-- is watching the android youtube video
Nov 12 19:24:36 <CM> cutmasta: I assume that's intended. How else would vendors differentiate their phones? (besides the hw that is)
Nov 12 19:25:04 <cutmasta> CM, i hope it is
Nov 12 19:25:10 <cutmasta> this would be amazing
Nov 12 19:25:20 <morrildl> cutmasta: yes
Nov 12 19:25:36 <morrildl> cutmasta: specifically, you could replace the "Home" screen
Nov 12 19:25:39 <cutmasta> i have tons of ideas which could be implemented if this is possible
Nov 12 19:25:53 <morrildl> cutmasta: what you couldn't do is replace the behavior of the "Menu" button, for instance
Nov 12 19:25:54 <don-o> yesterday i was saying i doubt google is going to rewrite a widget toolkit (like gtk or qt). i was wrong. :)
Nov 12 19:26:02 <robtaylor> don-o: heh
Nov 12 19:26:04 <morrildl> so low-level widget behavior, you can't override
Nov 12 19:26:07 <morrildl> but app-level stuff you can
Nov 12 19:26:12 <morrildl> and the Home screen is just an app
Nov 12 19:26:26 <morrildl> Currently I don't think you can override the in-call phone screen though
Nov 12 19:26:35 <morrildl> but you should be able to override the dialer
Nov 12 19:27:13 <cutmasta> morrildl, ok, so if i want to have 3 buttons (browser,contacts,<myownapp>) and nothing else on the phone , this is possible
Nov 12 19:27:39 <cutmasta> so , no mediaplayer and so on
Nov 12 19:28:28 <morrildl> cutmasta: well, first of all, the icons on that little gallery thing there are customizable via UI
Nov 12 19:28:42 <morrildl> cutmasta: so you could remove say browser if you don't want it there
Nov 12 19:29:04 <morrildl> cutmasta: second, if you install an application that does what basically amounts to registering itself as the Home screen, you can override that entire UI and do whatever you want
Nov 12 19:29:28 <morrildl> cutmasta: anyway don't put too much stock into what you're seeing in the emulator
Nov 12 19:29:35 <morrildl> that is very, very, very far from the final UI
Nov 12 19:29:38 <morrildl> it's really just a placeholder
Nov 12 19:30:01 <cutmasta> ok, thats exactly i wanted to know
Nov 12 19:30:02 <ozarka> Will the final device have green trim on the buttons?  :-)
Nov 12 19:30:20 <rwhitby> morning
Nov 12 19:30:33 * rwhitby notes from the traffic that the SDK must be released :-)
Nov 12 19:30:34 <morrildl> ozarka: I have no idea, I haven't seen it :P
Nov 12 19:30:46 <morrildl> ozarka: it exists only in the heads of the UI designers right now :)
Nov 12 19:31:06 * CM sends rwhitby along to http://code.google.com/android/download.html
Nov 12 19:31:31 <rwhitby> CM: already downloading :-)
Nov 12 19:31:35 <rwhitby> Eclipse plugin - nice :-)
Nov 12 19:31:38 <CM> :)
Nov 12 19:31:48 <ScaredyCat> what mechanism is used to talk to the hardware, gsm, gps, etc
Nov 12 19:32:31 <morrildl> ScaredyCat: nearly all "interesting" operations punch through to native code
Nov 12 19:32:50 <edcba> and what carriers can/will lock ? :)
Nov 12 19:33:03 <morrildl> That's part of what Dalvik does -- it's optimized for mobile applicatoins and efficiency
Nov 12 19:33:39 <ScaredyCat> so we need to write the link between the two... are there any skeleton apps to ease development for that
Nov 12 19:34:17 <parti> basically this is os+j2me5.0?
Nov 12 19:34:56 <davidw> morrildl, http://code.google.com/android/reference/emulator.html#apps has a broken link
Nov 12 19:35:02 <rwhitby> morrildl: well on the way to the channel user number target :-)
Nov 12 19:35:06 <davidw> (an extra slash)
Nov 12 19:35:25 <morrildl> davidw: thanks, on it
Nov 12 19:35:28 <morrildl> rwhitby: indeed :)
Nov 12 19:42:22 <cutmasta> bye all
Nov 12 19:42:28 <ScaredyCat> mmm ipc
Nov 12 19:42:42 <ozarka> Will j2me apps work?
Nov 12 19:42:44 <rwhitby> morrildl: if installing the SDK on windows, should i put it in a versioned directory, or will future updates be ok to overwrite a single non-versioned directory?
Nov 12 19:44:35 <ScaredyCat> :(
Nov 12 19:44:38 <ScaredyCat> "Android will include APIs for accessing low-level hardware such as Bluetooth and WiFi. These APIs, however, are not yet available in the SDK. When they are released, this documentation will be updated."
Nov 12 19:46:56 <jonbaer> anyone know how to load a resulting .apk file into the emulator via command line or the emulator itself?
Nov 12 19:48:31 <pandora--> ozarka: good question... j2me? CDC/CLDC/MIDP2-3 APIs??
Nov 12 19:49:19 <ozarka> Thanks, for you support.  I've only asked 4 times.  :-)
Nov 12 19:49:46 <edcba> doja ? :)
Nov 12 19:50:21 <davidw> jonbaer, adb Appname.apk
Nov 12 19:50:28 <don-o> XMPP is one of the blue boxes. woot.
Nov 12 19:50:47 <jonbaer> thank you davidw
Nov 12 19:51:05 <swetland> actually, adb install Appname.apk   unless something has changed
Nov 12 19:51:13 <davidw> ozarka, I've noticed that sometimes morrildl is more responsive if you include his nick... he's probably pretty busy at the moment
Nov 12 19:51:26 <davidw> swetland, oops, that's right
Nov 12 19:51:35 <edcba> hl harrassment :)
Nov 12 19:51:55 <Kaloz> hello Brian :)
Nov 12 19:52:13 <ozarka> davidw:  Good advice.  I'm patient.  I know there's a lot going on today.  :-)
Nov 12 19:52:30 <ozarka> I tried to ask last week when it was slow, but they told me to wait until today.
Nov 12 19:53:01 <wigyori> 'lo
Nov 12 19:54:25 <davidw> ozarka, they ought to put it in the FAQ, because I'm sure there's a lot of j2me developers who want to know
Nov 12 19:54:34 <Kaloz> swetland: the current sdk hardly gave me too many ideas about the environment you are using for development ;)
Nov 12 19:54:48 * blogic is intrigued aswell
Nov 12 19:54:49 <morrildl> davidw, ozarka: yeah, I'm pretty busy at the moment :)
Nov 12 19:54:53 <don-o> these intent requests make android a distributed platform
Nov 12 19:55:41 <ozarka> morrildl:  No problem.  I'll be here all week.
Nov 12 19:55:50 <morrildl> rwhitby: you should be able to do either installation technique on windows.  The SDK does not to my knowledge fool around with your registry or anything, so it should be okay to overwrite or even delete the old one
Nov 12 19:55:51 <don-o> dont forget to tip your waitress :)
Nov 12 19:56:23 <rwhitby> morrildl: thx
Nov 12 19:56:37 <swetland> kaloz: the apps guys in-house use the same tools that are in the public sdk.
Nov 12 19:57:11 <rwhitby> morrildl: so can you now confirm whether this channel was part of "The Plan" from the start, or whether it's just a good idea that you guys here had separately?
Nov 12 19:57:23 <pandora--> hah
Nov 12 19:57:41 <nbd> swetland: what about the tools to build the kernel/fs images?
Nov 12 19:57:54 * ScaredyCat nods
Nov 12 19:57:57 <morrildl> rwhitby: we don't normally view IRC as a "first class" channel for developer support & relations, but there are some of us who like IRC anyway and so make our best effort :)
Nov 12 19:58:23 <swetland> gcc arm cross compiler, mkyaffs2image, regular stuff, nothing super fancy
Nov 12 19:58:47 <rwhitby> morrildl: so the code.google.com is the main support channel?
Nov 12 19:59:00 <Sput> morrildl: in the FOSS world, IRC _is_ a first class medium for development
Nov 12 19:59:25 <rwhitby> morrildl: is there any other "first class" interactive channel (interactive, like IRC or Google Talk ...) ?
Nov 12 19:59:31 <ozarka> And it's a good place to start a flame war.
Nov 12 19:59:37 <Sput> morrildl: it'd be a good idea if google used this channel to build up a community... freenode is quite popular amongst FOSS devs
Nov 12 19:59:38 <Kaloz> swetland: but you do have some kind of environment for it, don't you? or you do most of it manually?
Nov 12 19:59:44 <Kaloz> ozarka :)
Nov 12 19:59:46 <morrildl> rwhitby: Yes, exactly -- code.google.com is the "front line"
Nov 12 19:59:51 <morrildl> Sput: that's why I'm here :)
Nov 12 19:59:58 <swetland> there's a build system that makes it all go. uses make ^^
Nov 12 20:00:14 <Sput> morrildl: and it'd be good if you (and other devs/official people) stayed here as well :)
Nov 12 20:00:27 <Sput> already 69 people here
Nov 12 20:00:31 <ScaredyCat> 70
Nov 12 20:00:32 <ScaredyCat> :d
Nov 12 20:00:33 * morrildl has no intention of leaving
Nov 12 20:00:37 <blogic> swetland: so, its just lots of custom Makefiles ? or is tehre some generic layer ?
Nov 12 20:00:39 <Sput> good :)
Nov 12 20:01:01 * Sput joined as number 6 or 7
Nov 12 20:01:19 <ozarka> I was 2.  Just sayin'.  :-)
Nov 12 20:02:10 <swetland> we do some pretty nutty stuff with make.  system build details are out of scope of the sdk launch, but when the full system is open sourced, you'll get all the goodies (and docs).
Nov 12 20:02:29 <ScaredyCat> hrmmm...
Nov 12 20:02:35 <[g2]> swetland: are you a dev ?
Nov 12 20:02:36 <CM> swetland: Good news indeed :)
Nov 12 20:02:40 <ScaredyCat> so porting to the neo will have to wait then
Nov 12 20:03:06 <blogic> swetland: what do you understand as "nutty stuff" ?
Nov 12 20:03:13 <[g2]> android dev that is :)
Nov 12 20:03:22 <davidw_> blogic, using gnu make's stranger corners?:-)
Nov 12 20:03:33 <don-o> somehow i turned on an overlay status in the upperright corner that shows load average and running tasks. how do i turn that off?
Nov 12 20:03:34 <ScaredyCat> yeah, one look at openembedded makes 'nutty stuff' look sane
Nov 12 20:03:35 <Kaloz> davidw_: don't escape the answer
Nov 12 20:03:35 <Kaloz> :P
Nov 12 20:03:37 <swetland> gnu make is an extremely powerful tool
Nov 12 20:03:41 * nbd has some experience with strange gnu make stuff ;)
Nov 12 20:03:49 <blogic> nbd: :)
Nov 12 20:04:04 <davidw_> Kaloz, I'm just guessing like everyone else... but swetland's answer makes it look like a good guess
Nov 12 20:04:30 <eno> is Dalvik VM going to be open sourced?
Nov 12 20:04:31 * morrildl has to get some food now
Nov 12 20:04:35 <morrildl> eno: yes
Nov 12 20:04:38 <Kaloz> davidw_: Brian leaves us in the dark :P
Nov 12 20:04:46 <eno> cool
Nov 12 20:04:49 <morrildl> eno: when the source code is released, it will include Dalvik
Nov 12 20:05:34 <swetland> systems questions are kind of out of scope for the initial sdk release. one thing at a time. also, they'll shoot me if I get in the way of our fine developer advocates in doing their duties ^^
Nov 12 20:05:51 <ScaredyCat> :(
Nov 12 20:05:56 <blogic> oh common :P
Nov 12 20:06:20 <blogic> at least "nutty stuff" implies, that you are not using OpenEmbedded
Nov 12 20:06:40 <ScaredyCat> that would be 'insane stuf'
Nov 12 20:06:52 <CM> Hehe
Nov 12 20:06:52 * ScaredyCat kicks oe twice
Nov 12 20:06:54 <Kaloz> ScaredyCat: or simply braindamage :p
Nov 12 20:07:07 <blogic> i would choose a different word then insane :P
Nov 12 20:07:53 <blogic> what eval kits are you using for testing ?
Nov 12 20:08:15 <mbraun> uh pretty crowded since friday :)
Nov 12 20:08:16 <swetland> in any case, adb shell is your friend for poking around. you've got an arm9 emulator running a "real" system image on a 2.6.23 based kernel.  kernel sources are available from the code download site. lots to explore even if you plan on ignoring the whole apps development thing
Nov 12 20:08:54 <Writchie> indeed!
Nov 12 20:08:55 <ScaredyCat> real systems with real hardware :D
Nov 12 20:11:58 <rwhitby> swetland: is the emulator based on any existing open source emulators (like qemu) ?
Nov 12 20:12:06 <rwhitby> and will it be open sourced?
Nov 12 20:12:08 <swetland> specifically qemu
Nov 12 20:12:11 <swetland> and it already is
Nov 12 20:12:17 <swetland> http://code.google.com/p/android/downloads/list
Nov 12 20:12:21 <rwhitby> upstreamed already?
Nov 12 20:12:45 <swetland> no. the changes are pretty huge. would be nice to get it in sync with upstream but we've been a little busy lately
Nov 12 20:12:46 <rwhitby> (i.e. patches pushed upstream to the qemu project)
Nov 12 20:12:55 <rwhitby> understandable :-)
Nov 12 20:13:53 <rwhitby> swetland: BTW, in case there are no official logs of this channel, I've been keeping logs at http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/android.txt since day one of the channel's existence.
Nov 12 20:14:09 <pandora--> w00t!
Nov 12 20:14:10 <rwhitby> http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/android/ is the archive
Nov 12 20:14:25 <ds2> what processor does the qemu in the SDK emulate?
Nov 12 20:14:29 <pandora--> has anybody already asked about JavaFX on android?
Nov 12 20:14:30 <davidw> arm, he said earlier
Nov 12 20:15:09 <ds2> what variant of ARM or what's the nick of the person who said it so I can search?
Nov 12 20:16:38 <jonbaer> i hope there is a new Zaurus coming for Android so i can replace my old one
Nov 12 20:16:58 <davidw> ds2, swetland
Nov 12 20:17:21 <Zoolooc> swetland: nice thing, having patched qemu to support the architecture. I tried qemu when poking around with cross-compiling gentoo for an arm9 based Buffalo NAS, but did not succeed to patch qemu exactly as the arch is
Nov 12 20:17:25 <ds2> ah thanks.
Nov 12 20:17:44 <swetland> we built a specific virtual architecture for this
Nov 12 20:18:00 <swetland> which was a lot easier to build and maintain than trying to emulate some specific piece of hardware
Nov 12 20:18:01 <Zoolooc> is it a patch to qemu?
Nov 12 20:18:20 <swetland> http://code.google.com/p/android/downloads/list
Nov 12 20:18:32 <swetland> sources for the emulator (qemu based) and kernel
Nov 12 20:18:49 <ds2> swetland: is that work based on the versatile emulation in qemu?
Nov 12 20:19:05 <don-o> swetland: nice find.
Nov 12 20:19:06 <swetland> we've pretty much abandoned versatile
Nov 12 20:19:11 <Zoolooc> yes, tahnks, seen the link few lines above. I must have a look into this, as for now, I'm more interested in the msm7k kernel itself, than in android
Nov 12 20:19:16 <swetland> though there may be some remnants of it there
Nov 12 20:19:49 <ds2> swetland: is there a real world processor (periph. combination) that the emulation is modeled after then?
Nov 12 20:20:02 <jonbaer> is the svn repository unavailable @ the moment?
Nov 12 20:21:19 <swetland> no
Nov 12 20:21:49 <swetland> like I said, easier to build simple virtual peripherals and kernel support for them than to try to emulate some specific piece of hardware
Nov 12 20:22:16 <ds2> easier but more interesting to have accurate hardware emulation, IMO
Nov 12 20:22:45 <Zoolooc> questionable if that can ever be accurate enough, anyway
Nov 12 20:22:55 <rwhitby> ds2: difficult to have accurate hardware emulation for every single device that will eventually run Android ..
Nov 12 20:23:00 <swetland> if I need to debug on the hardware I debug on the hardware. goal of the emulator is to have a solid arm linux environment to run the system on
Nov 12 20:23:27 <rwhitby> swetland: are you guys using a qualcomm msm7k based dev board?
Nov 12 20:23:32 <ds2> rwhitby: yes, hence the question on which one.
Nov 12 20:23:44 <rwhitby> (referring to the kernel patches pushed to l-a-k)
Nov 12 20:24:06 <davidw> morrildl, swetland : I hope the thing, when it ships, makes getting apps onto the phone *super easy*
Nov 12 20:24:19 <swetland> one of the platforms we've been working with is the SURF 7200A (we call it Halibut)
Nov 12 20:24:19 <rwhitby> ds2: isn't that the point - they don't want to focus on one specific device
Nov 12 20:25:29 <rwhitby> swetland: any idea what the cost of a dev board is to the man on the street?
Nov 12 20:25:37 <rwhitby> (from qualcomm I presume)
Nov 12 20:25:51 <morrildl> davidw: we share your desire for easy-to-install applications.  All in the fullness of time though -- this is primarily about the APIs :)
Nov 12 20:26:00 <swetland> honestly I don't know. not sure if they sell it directly to individuals, etc
Nov 12 20:26:15 <morrildl> davidw: (this current SDK, I mean)
Nov 12 20:26:56 <davidw> morrildl, sure, but please please please don't let it end up being sort of an 'afterthought' - it should be part and parcel of the system
Nov 12 20:27:03 <cutmasta> morrildl, take your time, i know how much work it is to make something open source and well documented and so on
Nov 12 20:27:07 <Kaloz> morrildl/swetland : is there a simple way to accesss the real shell? (not the limited sandbox i mean)
Nov 12 20:27:08 <swetland> there are a number of devices that run arm linux 2.6.23 though. no particular need for a particular dev board
Nov 12 20:27:09 <rwhitby> swetland: is there any plan for advance third party developer hardware, or is everything going to be focused on the emulator for 3rd party app development?
Nov 12 20:28:59 <swetland> sadly that's not an area where I can really answer questions.  for the time being the emulator is the primary app development vehicle
Nov 12 20:30:27 <morrildl> davidw: I wish I could say more, but right now I can't :)
Nov 12 20:30:47 <morrildl> Kaloz: what do you mean by "real shell"?
Nov 12 20:31:26 <Kaloz> morrildl: well, the "adb shell" seems to be a sandbox. I would be interested if there's an easy way to access the real toys other then dumping the fs' contents
Nov 12 20:31:51 <rwhitby> Kaloz wants to run OpenWrt on it :-)
Nov 12 20:32:01 * nbd too
Nov 12 20:32:07 <Kaloz> rwhitby: that will happen anyways ;)
Nov 12 20:32:28 <morrildl> Kaloz: well, what are you looking to find out?  there actually isn't a whole lot more on there than what you see -- e.g. binaries for many of the usual fileutils/binutils aren't present
Nov 12 20:32:54 <Kaloz> morrildl: want a polite or a straight answer? ;)
Nov 12 20:33:09 <morrildl> Kaloz: this is IRC -- aren't those two the same thing? ;)
Nov 12 20:33:33 <blogic> Kaloz: it will happen indeed
Nov 12 20:34:11 <Kaloz> morrildl: they aren't, specially on irc ;) let's say I want to know how does google mean "embedded" :) and yes, I'm lazy enough to not dump the fs if there's an easier way to poke around :)
Nov 12 20:34:37 <kristian-m> is there a video of the press conference? - was there a press conference?
Nov 12 20:35:52 <morrildl> Kaloz: http://code.google.com/android/what-is-android.html
Nov 12 20:36:16 <morrildl> Kaloz: that's an intro page.  The source isn't available yet, but we can definitely answer questions :)
Nov 12 20:36:24 <morrildl> Kaloz: so that might also save you some trouble
Nov 12 20:36:50 <jonbaer> id like to see a page/article/code re: Parcels and Binders
Nov 12 20:36:52 <Zoolooc> swetland: can you tell me if there are other differneces between msm7200 and msm7200A other than CPU clock and display resolution support? Is it safe to try to boot the kernel on a msm7200 device like the kaiser?
Nov 12 20:36:54 <blogic> a BSD-derived implementation of the standard C system library (libc), tuned for embedded Linux-based devices
Nov 12 20:37:00 <Kaloz> masaw that and the videos, but it's more marketing stuff than what i want to know ;P
Nov 12 20:37:01 <blogic> does this mean no glibc ?
Nov 12 20:37:06 <Kaloz> morrildl: asaw that and the videos, but it's more marketing stuff than what i want to know ;P
Nov 12 20:37:08 <blogic> :P
Nov 12 20:37:34 <Kaloz> morrildl: so uclibc/dietlibc/eglibc/glibc? (guess that bsd licensed thing is a typo)
Nov 12 20:37:38 <morrildl> blogic: the libc implementation is not glibc, that's correct.  glibc is very very difficult to make small
Nov 12 20:37:58 <kristian-m> Kaloz what video?
Nov 12 20:38:04 <swetland> 7200 is a little different than 7200A. most notable thing I recall is the register arrangement of the irq controller is rather different
Nov 12 20:38:17 <Kaloz> kristian-m: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm6Ju0xhUW8
Nov 12 20:38:22 <swetland> I suspect that'd be the biggest pain trying to adapt our 7200a work to 7200
Nov 12 20:38:23 <edcba> YouTube - Androidology - Part 1 of 3 - Architecture Overview
Nov 12 20:39:09 <blogic> morrildl: so uclibc ?
Nov 12 20:39:15 <morrildl> android's libc implementation originally came from several of the BSDs' (OpenBSD, NetBSD)
Nov 12 20:39:24 <blogic> you made your own ?
Nov 12 20:39:42 <morrildl> blogic: not so much made, as "took BSD's and heavily modified"
Nov 12 20:39:47 <Kaloz> o.O
Nov 12 20:40:28 <Kaloz> morrildl: shell? binutils and gcc version being used?
Nov 12 20:41:09 <blogic> and i assume X/kdrive ? or some custom made stuff ?
Nov 12 20:41:09 <swetland> a solid ~200K libc is a nice thing to have
Nov 12 20:41:34 <meus> I cannot find "android" in my prefs in step 11b. I am on ubuntu gutsy 64 with freshly installed eclipse. anybody have any hints?
Nov 12 20:41:49 <swetland> our own stuff. should be some information in the docs/videos on pixelflinger/surfaceflinger
Nov 12 20:42:06 <jonbaer> so you need gmail for xmpp
Nov 12 20:42:42 <swetland> in general, we are more of an "embedded systems/mobile platform on top of linux 2.6.23" than "full unix trimmed down for small devices"
Nov 12 20:43:17 <Zoolooc> swetland: hmm, not looking good, for my kaiser
Nov 12 20:43:55 <morrildl> jonbaer: what do you mean?
Nov 12 20:44:30 <jonbaer> in video 3/3 mentions of p2p over xmpp that works w/ "any gmail account"
Nov 12 20:44:38 <meus> is there another way to set the SDK root, since I cannot find android in prefs pane? I see it in manage configuration and it says sthat everything is ok
Nov 12 20:45:44 <rwhitby> morrildl: is there a "blessed" forum for android discussion (not that I like forums anyway) - it the discussion group on code.google.com the only one?  What's the android team's position on other forums that have sprung up like ohadev.com and androidcommunity.com ?
Nov 12 20:46:00 <morrildl> jonbaer: ahh, right.  Yes, currently the XMPP system requires a Google Login.  Fortunately you can use any such login, so you can create a junk one for testing.   We are thinking hard about how the XMPP library will work in future versions
Nov 12 20:46:23 <morrildl> rwhitby: the Google Group is the official support channel
Nov 12 20:46:51 <rwhitby> good, that means I can see everything important in email :-)
Nov 12 20:47:05 <morrildl> rwhitby: we love the fact that people are making other forums.  Obviously we can't visit them all or participate, but it's awesome that they are there
Nov 12 20:47:29 <jonbaer> the NotificationManager seems alot like Growl on os x, pretty much same behavior and setup
Nov 12 20:48:03 <rwhitby> morrildl: how many google people are assigned full time answering questions on the google group?
Nov 12 20:48:35 <morrildl> rwhitby: well, I can't really speak to that :)
Nov 12 20:49:08 <rwhitby> np
Nov 12 20:55:24 <meus> morrildl: do you know if anybody has gotten ADT to work under eclipse 86_64?
Nov 12 20:56:10 <morrildl> meus: the emulator is 32-bit, so it won't do you much good to get ADT working under x86_64.  I don't think anyone here has tried it, for that reason
Nov 12 20:56:19 <meus> ok
Nov 12 20:56:23 <meus> thanks :)
Nov 12 20:56:39 <rwhitby> swetland: do you guys develop on windows or linux internally?
Nov 12 20:57:19 <rwhitby> or is it a release criteria for all the tools and sdk that they work equally well on either?
Nov 12 20:58:07 <rwhitby> (i.e. which one should a new developer use, given choice, from an android development point of view only)
Nov 12 20:58:25 <cutmasta> rwhitby, i currently also work on a forum
Nov 12 20:58:31 <swetland> apps development is supported on win32, osx, and linux
Nov 12 20:58:43 <swetland> the vast majority of the team uses linux or osx
Nov 12 20:58:59 <rwhitby> swetland: and the emulator and other tools run equally well on all three OS platforms?
Nov 12 20:59:09 <swetland> they should
Nov 12 20:59:47 <rwhitby> but I guess you're expecting a majority of third party developers to be using the windows platform for development?
Nov 12 21:00:07 <rwhitby> (or macosx?)
Nov 12 21:00:08 <blogic> :)
Nov 12 21:00:11 <swetland> there are a *lot* of people out there who do development on windows (just in general)
Nov 12 21:00:30 <rwhitby> swetland: indeed - that's exactly what I mean.
Nov 12 21:00:37 <swetland> we figure supporting the three major desktop platforms covers things pretty well
Nov 12 21:00:53 <rwhitby> but it always helps to know that the core developers use in-house :-)
Nov 12 21:02:45 <rwhitby> swetland: to be assured of seeing all sdk api change announcements and other important developer info, does one need to be subscribed to the google discussion group?  or is there a separate announcements channel (the blog perhaps?)
Nov 12 21:03:07 <rwhitby> I'm assuming the discussion group is going to become a firehose soon ...
Nov 12 21:03:58 <jasonchen> rwhitby: the blog is at blog.android.com; you should subscribe to the feed as that's where we'll be announcing changes and updates
Nov 12 21:04:29 <rwhitby> jasonchen: are there any developer advocates who will be on IRC outside of US working hours?  i.e. who work in non-US timezones?
Nov 12 21:09:00 <jasonchen> rwhitby: this IRC channel is an unofficial support channel, so we unfortunately don't guarantee coverage
Nov 12 21:09:38 <rwhitby> jasonchen: I understand that you can't guarantee anything - my question was more whether any of the google people who are here now are from non-US locations?
Nov 12 21:10:15 <rwhitby> (where being here does in no way indicate a guarantee of support in any way)
Nov 12 21:10:17 <jasonchen> rwhitby: sorry, was just getting to that point.  right now, it's unlikely that there will be anyone to cover non-US hours
Nov 12 21:10:45 <rwhitby> jasonchen: what about the official discussion group - do you expect there to be answers in there during non-US hours?
Nov 12 21:11:00 <edcba> maybe some late workers ? :)
Nov 12 21:11:35 <meus> morrildl: got it working now :)
Nov 12 21:12:10 <jasonchen> rwhitby: we tend to work extended hours, but there won't be 24/7 coverage for the group either
Nov 12 21:12:43 <jasonchen> we will, however, strive to answer posts -- where appropriate -- in a timely fashion
Nov 12 21:13:59 <rwhitby> ok, so I understand from your answers that the people designated to man the official support channels are all in US timezones.
Nov 12 21:14:26 <rwhitby> (using "man" in a non-gender-specific usage there)
Nov 12 21:17:47 <ChristianW> this has probably been asked a lot of times the last week, but i havent found anything about it on the web. would Android be an alternative to the current linux flavors for handhelds? like the BlueAngel? :)
Nov 12 21:19:52 <jasonchen> rwhitby: that's correct for now.  can i ask why you're interested in knowing?
Nov 12 21:20:16 <rwhitby> jasonchen: I'm in GMT+10:30
Nov 12 21:20:34 <rwhitby> (Australia)
Nov 12 21:20:47 <rwhitby> and I expect there would be lots of Indian and Chinese developers too ...
Nov 12 21:21:11 <ChristianW> there are actually 30-minute timezones?
Nov 12 21:21:16 <buz> some
Nov 12 21:21:54 <rwhitby> ChristianW: there is a GMT+13:45 timezone
Nov 12 21:21:59 <ChristianW> *sigh* whatever happened to Swatch Internet time? ;)
Nov 12 21:22:06 * don-o coughs
Nov 12 21:22:06 <rwhitby> ChristianW: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=63
Nov 12 21:22:09 <ChristianW> well.. that's kind of lame? :)
Nov 12 21:22:41 <jasonchen> rwhitby: we hope there will be too :-)
Nov 12 21:22:49 <buz> does anybody know if there will be htc android devices
Nov 12 21:22:54 <gabe0x02> hey all... what's new :)
Nov 12 21:23:13 <rwhitby> jasonchen: then you'll need some support people in those timezones :-)
Nov 12 21:23:43 <ChristianW> buz: i believe htc said they would have their first device out 2nd half 2008
Nov 12 21:23:57 <buz> oh please please gimme a linux tytn ;)
Nov 12 21:24:23 <ChristianW> hehe... i don't see why there should be a problem implementing android on htc-devices already booting linux...
Nov 12 21:24:41 <buz> yeah but who wants to lug around and universal
Nov 12 21:24:51 <ChristianW> i don't know the status of the tytn, but the blue angel has a fully working linux i believe (except gsm)
Nov 12 21:25:06 <buz> i think that keypad is unusable
Nov 12 21:25:14 <buz> besides, phone without gsm is totally useless
Nov 12 21:25:19 <ChristianW> hehe :)
Nov 12 21:25:27 <ChristianW> wardriving? ;)
Nov 12 21:25:32 <buz> if i could do without gsm, i'd get a n810
Nov 12 21:25:40 <Kaloz> ChristianW: i want openwrt on the z2 for that ;)
Nov 12 21:25:58 <ChristianW> z2?
Nov 12 21:26:21 <Kaloz> ChristianW: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5942157201.html
Nov 12 21:27:08 <ChristianW> nice :)
Nov 12 21:27:21 <ChristianW> a bit childish design though...
Nov 12 21:27:28 <ChristianW> but that's probably the point ;)
Nov 12 21:27:37 <Kaloz> :)
Nov 12 21:28:39 <ChristianW> i want a passive 0db linux driven stb with hardware h.264 decoding to run mythfrontend on...
Nov 12 21:28:50 <ChristianW> but that's probably pushing it :)
Nov 12 21:31:18 <kristian-m> how are you accessing steetview? - is there gnash on that prototype? - or do you have some version of adobes flash in a vm?
Nov 12 21:33:23 <[g2]> Kaloz: z2 sweet link
Nov 12 21:37:50 * dcordes likes prototype eyecandy
Nov 12 21:43:08 <mikanoza> hello
Nov 12 21:44:00 <mikanoza> i used update site to get ADT plugins, in preferences it asks me for SDK Location?
Nov 12 21:44:27 <gabe0x02> it's the location you put your sdk
Nov 12 21:44:32 <mikanoza> 'could not find folder 'tools'....
Nov 12 21:44:36 <gabe0x02> where you extracted it to
Nov 12 21:44:47 <mikanoza> where my eclipse is installed?
Nov 12 21:44:58 <gabe0x02> you downloaded the android sdk right
Nov 12 21:45:17 <mikanoza> i used update site to install plugin in my eclipse instance
Nov 12 21:46:00 <gabe0x02> http://code.google.com/android/download.html
Nov 12 21:46:47 <gabe0x02> download, extract, put the path you extract to in your eclipse android prefrences
Nov 12 21:46:56 <mikanoza> right, and I used update site just below because I already use Eclipse
Nov 12 21:47:07 <gabe0x02> yeah but you still need the sdk
Nov 12 21:47:14 <gabe0x02> that just adds the plugin
Nov 12 21:47:34 <mikanoza> it says: Using Eclipse? Install the plugin
Nov 12 21:47:42 <gabe0x02> i know
Nov 12 21:47:53 <mikanoza> so that implies that if I use Eclipse I just need plugins?
Nov 12 21:47:54 <gabe0x02> you still need the sdk
Nov 12 21:48:03 <mikanoza> ok, cool
Nov 12 21:48:06 <gabe0x02> the zip file has a tools directory
Nov 12 21:48:24 <mikanoza> why doesn't update site install everything needed?
Nov 12 21:48:33 <gabe0x02> donno...
Nov 12 21:48:46 <mikanoza> ok
Nov 12 21:48:53 <gabe0x02> not sure that plugins can download source librarys
Nov 12 21:49:05 <morrildl> kristian-m: that streetview demo is not currently included in the SDK early-look, but I can tell you that it is a normal Android app.
Nov 12 21:49:05 <gabe0x02> probably could
Nov 12 21:49:07 <rwhitby> mikanoza: cause eclipse plugins don't usually install complete SDKs.
Nov 12 21:49:23 <rwhitby> (the SDK is not just java libraries)
Nov 12 21:49:48 <zmedico> the plugin is pure java, the sdk isn't
Nov 12 21:49:53 <mikanoza> right, it's just that the title for plugins is a bit misleading
Nov 12 21:50:11 <mikanoza> ok, downloading thanks
Nov 12 21:50:25 <gabe0x02> no prob
Nov 12 21:50:27 <mikanoza> does SDK include gPhone too? :)
Nov 12 21:51:02 <nbd> yes
Nov 12 21:51:03 <nbd> a virtual one
Nov 12 21:51:04 <nbd> ;)
Nov 12 21:51:10 <rwhitby> I think http://code.google.com/android/intro/installing.html is pretty clear that you need to install both SDK and plugin.
Nov 12 21:51:55 <mikanoza> ha, who reads documentation?
Nov 12 21:52:17 <rwhitby> the people who don't ask silly questions on IRC, that's who ;-)
Nov 12 21:52:33 <mikanoza> ouch
Nov 12 21:52:34 <jasonchen> rwhitby: the plugin isn't strictly required; you can develop using any other IDE or editor you want
Nov 12 21:53:05 <rwhitby> jasonchen: yes, I meant that the sdk is a prerequisite for the plugin, and that is clearly explained on that page.
Nov 12 21:53:45 <jasonchen> rwhitby: ah, sorry -- catching up on things that have scrolled off my screen
Nov 12 22:01:16 <g-e> hi
Nov 12 22:02:03 <g-e> i wonder, why did they invent android. wouldnt a couple of linux-drivers for phone-components make more sense?
Nov 12 22:02:30 <ScaredyCat> it's high level stuff.... not low level
Nov 12 22:03:05 <ScaredyCat> low level stuff gets specific, this is really generic
Nov 12 22:03:16 <g-e> does android use X?
Nov 12 22:03:48 <kristian-m> morrildl okay, thanks. - any plans on flash yet?
Nov 12 22:06:48 <Stephmw> g-e: don't think so, there's a "surface manager"
Nov 12 22:06:59 <g-e> im a bit confused about all this.
Nov 12 22:07:21 <g-e> why not just use.. say.. ubuntu?
Nov 12 22:07:43 <g-e> i want to run all my shellscripts and linux software on my phone.
Nov 12 22:08:14 <Zoolooc> then android is not what you're looking for
Nov 12 22:08:38 <g-e> yeah. probably. but what is it good for? i mean there are OSes out there. why invent a new one?
Nov 12 22:08:52 <don-o> g-e: openmoko is a lot closer to ubuntu on a cellphone
Nov 12 22:09:07 <g-e> don-o: yes, i know about openmoko.
Nov 12 22:09:20 <g-e> im just here to find out, what android is about.
Nov 12 22:09:58 <eno> g-e: android is on top of linux, so itself is not OS
Nov 12 22:10:07 <Zoolooc> it's explained in the docs on the site
Nov 12 22:10:28 <g-e> Zoolooc: link?
Nov 12 22:10:43 <parti> topic
Nov 12 22:10:51 <Zoolooc> right
Nov 12 22:12:14 <g-e> oh, i read that.
Nov 12 22:12:24 <g-e> but there is no "why" section.
Nov 12 22:12:49 <g-e> i mean they invented a new package manager and all kind of stuff. but why? all that has been sorted out many years ago.
Nov 12 22:13:56 <ozarka> g-e:  The Google moves in mysterious ways.
Nov 12 22:15:14 <Stephmw> g-e: to be honest, the 'sorted out many years ago' doesn't really apply to the mobile space
Nov 12 22:15:36 <Zoolooc> NIH syndrome, maybe?
Nov 12 22:15:45 <Stephmw> surely there's a certain amount of that :)
Nov 12 22:15:46 <ScaredyCat> yeah ipkg rawks!!!
Nov 12 22:15:48 <ScaredyCat> not
Nov 12 22:15:54 <g-e> Stephmw: how is managing packages related to the hardware?
Nov 12 22:16:06 <eno> JDK required is 1.5, for Dalvik, what is the comparable version of Sun JVM?
Nov 12 22:16:20 <Stephmw> g-e: who said it was? I was referring to the footprint and the product landscape
Nov 12 22:16:30 <Stephmw> eno: likely also 1.5
Nov 12 22:16:56 <g-e> Stephmw: footprint?
Nov 12 22:16:56 <Stephmw> g-e: I work in the industry, and neither rpm, apt or any of the others satisifies all the problems I've seen on the mobile landscape
Nov 12 22:17:13 <robtaylor> morrildl: could you tell me some about what 'binder' actually does?
Nov 12 22:17:35 <g-e> Stephmw: interesting. whats the problem with apt?
Nov 12 22:20:41 <Stephmw> g-e: it's not specific to apt, and it's actually more of a problem with the industry ;)
Nov 12 22:20:48 <davidw> embedded is definitely different from apt-get and company
Nov 12 22:21:43 <Stephmw> to be honest, there's no satisfactory solution in the embedded market (j2me doesn't handle it well and neither does ipkg*)
Nov 12 22:21:45 <robtaylor> morrildl: not
Nov 12 22:21:52 <mikanoza> does Google have backers from mobile industry for OS?
Nov 12 22:22:26 <Stephmw> mikanoza: read the list of members in the open handset alliance
Nov 12 22:22:40 <Stephmw> mikanoza: http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/oha_members.html
Nov 12 22:22:58 <g-e> Stephmw: i dont understand. a phone is a computer like any other. why should apt work different on a phone then on a notebook.
Nov 12 22:23:10 <robtaylor> morrildl: oops. Was about to say that the cmpxchg implementation in binder_defs.h is suboptimal. Modern kernels have global atomic_cmpxchg for all arches
Nov 12 22:23:17 <Stephmw> g-e: that's the first problem, a phone is most definitely *not* a computer like all the others
Nov 12 22:23:27 <Stephmw> g-e: it's that perception that makes explaining things difficult
Nov 12 22:23:45 <Stephmw> g-e: the usage patterns and the target audience is completely different
Nov 12 22:24:07 <g-e> Stephmw: but thats what the applications deal with.
Nov 12 22:24:11 <Stephmw> (and I'm not even talking about UI usability issues, OpenMoko guys know what I'm talking about here)
Nov 12 22:24:49 <g-e> Stephmw: the os is doing the same.
Nov 12 22:25:11 <Stephmw> g-e: application usability and handset usage patterns are intersecting sets, but they're not the same
Nov 12 22:25:35 <Stephmw> g-e: in some ways, it's much messier than notebooks and pdas
Nov 12 22:25:35 <g-e> Stephmw: i dont understand.
Nov 12 22:26:04 <Stephmw> g-e: IRC isn't a good way to explain, I'm sorry. I have to prepare some slides on this for work - so at some point I'll have a better explanation
Nov 12 22:26:17 <g-e> ok
Nov 12 22:26:29 <Stephmw> before working in the industry, I had the same viewpoint you did ;)
Nov 12 22:26:33 <Stephmw> if that's any consolation
Nov 12 22:27:13 <morrildl> robtaylor: I'll direct you to swetland for that one :)
Nov 12 22:27:30 <morrildl> it's been quite a while since I followed kernel internals :)
Nov 12 22:27:31 <robtaylor> morrildl: thanks!
Nov 12 22:27:55 <dfas`> can I access Bluetooth and Wifi functionality from Android Application Framework?
Nov 12 22:28:11 <robtaylor> swetland: hey, could you tell me more on 'binder'? (btw, i'm a D-Bus developer)
Nov 12 22:29:57 <Stephmw> morrildl: btw, I found out on Friday that Google changed its presentation topic at Future Of Mobile in London to Android :)
Nov 12 22:30:42 <nbd> http://nbd.name/openwrt-android.jpg :)
Nov 12 22:30:46 <blogic> :P
Nov 12 22:31:06 <blogic> nbd: how long did that take you ?
Nov 12 22:31:37 <nbd> well, i started it two hours ago, but i didn't work on it the whole time
Nov 12 22:31:56 <nbd> and my server takes a while to build the toolchain from scratch ;)
Nov 12 22:32:23 <blogic> :P
Nov 12 22:32:32 <dfas`> nbd: gonna be in the competition with that? :P
Nov 12 22:32:40 <nbd> dfas`: not competition
Nov 12 22:32:48 <dfas`> ?
Nov 12 22:32:53 <Stephmw> yegads. the mailing list really is pumping out the posts
Nov 12 22:33:03 <morrildl> Stephmw: tell me about it
Nov 12 22:33:06 * morrildl weeps
Nov 12 22:33:08 <nbd> dfas`: i mean who'd run against me?
Nov 12 22:33:23 <blogic> nbd-styl3
Nov 12 22:33:33 <blogic> oops typo :)
Nov 12 22:33:51 * nbd would like to run the android stack on openwrt eventually ;)
Nov 12 22:33:54 <davidw> nbd, what console widget does that use?
Nov 12 22:34:10 <nbd> this is standard framebuffer stuff in the emulator
Nov 12 22:34:54 <blogic> nbd: the sv rev is missing ?!?
Nov 12 22:35:04 <nbd> yes, because it's a git checkout
Nov 12 22:35:11 <nbd> it can't pull the svn rev there yet
Nov 12 22:35:21 <blogic> ah ok :)
Nov 12 22:38:52 <Stephmw> morrildl: I'm curious about call handling and RTOS aspects, is the kernel setup for soft-realtime?
Nov 12 22:45:36 <davidw> where's stderr go?
Nov 12 22:56:15 <don-o> the "iPhone wrapped in black tape" is known on the mailing list as "the second prototype".
Nov 12 22:56:28 <don-o> i wish they'd announce the thing :)
Nov 12 22:57:44 <ScaredyCat> looks mice
Nov 12 22:57:47 <ScaredyCat> nice even
Nov 12 22:58:00 <jonbaer> where do u see that?
Nov 12 22:58:19 <don-o> jonbaer: youtube. "Hello Android"
Nov 12 22:58:26 <jonbaer> oh
Nov 12 22:59:33 <morrildl> Stephmw: nope
Nov 12 23:00:01 <morrildl> davidw: Android includes a logging facility that you can write to from yuor application, and read via the command 'adb logcat'.  This is similar in concept to syslog
Nov 12 23:00:13 <Stephmw> morrildl: I look forward to seeing the docs on GSM compliance for emergency call handling then... but that's for later :)
Nov 12 23:00:14 <davidw> cool, thanks
Nov 12 23:02:24 <ozarka> So I noticed that there was an unanswered j2me question on the mailing list as well...
Nov 12 23:04:49 <ozarka> morrildl: Any support for j2me?
Nov 12 23:05:16 <ozarka> Or is the best advice for porting just to rewrite to the android api where applicable?
Nov 12 23:06:03 * don-o 's favorite post - GTK app written in PHP
Nov 12 23:06:08 <davidw> ewwwww
Nov 12 23:06:52 <nbd> php ... nasty
Nov 12 23:06:58 <Stephmw> ozarka: I asked too, but I may have missed the answer in here
Nov 12 23:07:20 <ozarka> Stephmw:  I don't think you missed it.
Nov 12 23:07:32 <ozarka> I asked a few times and there was no answer on the mailing list.
Nov 12 23:07:35 <parti> where can i find the mailing list?
Nov 12 23:07:41 <ozarka> topic
Nov 12 23:07:47 <parti> roger
Nov 12 23:09:30 <ozarka> [wild speculation] No discussion of j2me because the google geniuses are busy working on some kind of j2me jvm to run inside the custom vm whatever it's called. [/wild speculation]
Nov 12 23:09:55 <ozarka> And they just don't want to distract us from writing our $25k apps for the android api.
Nov 12 23:10:24 <don-o> [more wild speculation] Google business types dont care about j2me because no killer apps exist, so no benefit to the extra java libs
Nov 12 23:11:23 <puckett> Didn't Esmertec (in the initial PR) claim that their JBed was going to be used?
Nov 12 23:11:24 <parti> why would they work on j2me support then?
Nov 12 23:11:33 <ozarka> So why don't they just say, "We have no plans to support j2me at this time."  ?
Nov 12 23:11:50 <ozarka> There are a lot of j2me apps in the world.
Nov 12 23:12:10 <ozarka> Some of those same developers may be interested in their apps working on android.
Nov 12 23:12:56 <Stephmw> don-o: there's a healthy gaming market *and* it's simple to support j2me
Nov 12 23:13:24 <Stephmw> don-o: the MIDPath dev is thoroughly interested in doing the quick port if Google doesn't come up with the goods
Nov 12 23:16:11 <ozarka> So how many j2me developers are in this channel?
Nov 12 23:16:19 <pandora--> one here
Nov 12 23:16:25 <Stephmw> two here
Nov 12 23:16:35 <parti> three here
Nov 12 23:16:47 <ozarka> 4 out of 71!
Nov 12 23:16:51 <pandora--> he
Nov 12 23:16:52 <pandora--> heh
Nov 12 23:17:02 * puckett raises hand
Nov 12 23:17:04 <ozarka> Careful, Google.  We'll rise up against you!
Nov 12 23:17:15 <puckett> We let Jobs off the hook...  :)
Nov 12 23:17:21 <pandora--> haha
Nov 12 23:17:25 * ozarka does math
Nov 12 23:17:34 <pandora--> dont need that bajillionaire anymore.
Nov 12 23:17:36 <ozarka> That's like 20%
Nov 12 23:17:57 <ozarka> Can google afford to ignore 20% of their developer base?
Nov 12 23:18:00 <ozarka> I don't think so.
Nov 12 23:18:04 <pandora--> well, any j2me people in here that aren't in #j2me, should hop in there too
Nov 12 23:18:10 <pandora--> ozarka: lol
Nov 12 23:24:23 <Stephmw> morrildl: some feedback of note on the licensing perspective might need a response, http://robilad.livejournal.com/22312.html
Nov 12 23:31:20 <davidw> sweet...Hecl works
Nov 12 23:32:05 <CM> ozarka: I'll give a hand to that too ;)
Nov 12 23:33:26 <ozarka> Yay!  That's 6.  They can't ignore us now.
Nov 12 23:36:43 <davidw> ozarka, it seems like something that must have been decided one way or the other
Nov 12 23:37:08 <ozarka> Maybe they didn't know about j2me.
Nov 12 23:37:32 * don-o shoots milk out his nose
Nov 12 23:37:34 <ozarka> Maybe they're all sitting around right now, saying, "Wow.  We could have just used that."
Nov 12 23:37:50 <edcba> lol
Nov 12 23:38:42 <edcba> maybe not :)
Nov 12 23:40:02 <Stephmw> must be lunchtime, no?
Nov 12 23:40:24 <puckett> 3:40 pm on the west coast
Nov 12 23:40:31 <davidw> nah, they went drinking
Nov 12 23:40:35 <ozarka> Tea time.
Nov 12 23:40:53 <ozarka> Crumpets and Earl Grey in the cafeteria.
Nov 12 23:41:28 <ozarka> davidw: So what did you do to get Hecl working?
Nov 12 23:41:58 <CM> I think the Android stack looks great, very interesting to see how it will evolve
Nov 12 23:42:25 <davidw> ozarka, a bit of tinkering with the build system... of course, none of the GUI stuff is there, but the interpreter works
Nov 12 23:42:40 <davidw> so it's nothing really that revolutionary:-)
Nov 12 23:42:52 <ozarka> That seems to be the trick.  All new UI.
Nov 12 23:43:35 <jonbaer> to make a call from an app do you fire off an Intent? + what security features are wrapped around it?
Nov 12 23:44:08 <ozarka> Even if there's no j2me support, we should be able to just strip off the old ui and put on the android ui.
Nov 12 23:44:40 * ozarka wishes he had separated those layers better
Nov 12 23:45:49 <Stephmw> anyone mounted the system.img to figure out which JVM it's using?
Nov 12 23:45:54 <elux> lots of people
Nov 12 23:46:24 <Stephmw> I'm not having luck with mount -o loop (even with the usual qemu offset)
Nov 12 23:46:59 <ozarka> Does anyone else find it odd that they didn't use javadoc for the api documentation?
Nov 12 23:47:05 <ozarka> Or am I missing something?
Nov 12 23:47:06 * Stephmw nods
Nov 12 23:48:25 <elux> what are the first impressions of the sdk?
Nov 12 23:48:52 <puckett> ozarka: Yeah, I expected Javadoc...
Nov 12 23:49:12 * ozarka adds to his list of demands
Nov 12 23:51:10 <osmosis_> i hate java
Nov 12 23:51:18 <osmosis_> why counldn't it be python based.
Nov 12 23:51:20 * puckett gasps
Nov 12 23:52:23 <davidw> Hecl runs on it.  I'm sure jruby will soon... things like jython ought to follow
Nov 12 23:53:13 <ozarka> Can we have a language flame war now?
Nov 12 23:53:27 * Stephmw gets his pitchfork
Nov 12 23:56:38 <osmosis_> i might as well just buy an openmoko now.
Nov 12 23:57:58 <Stephmw> osmosis_: fair enough - might have to wait unless you're a driver developer
Nov 12 23:58:09 <Stephmw> osmosis_: it's not really baked yet either
Nov 12 23:58:24 <ozarka> osmosis_:  I think that android and openmoko are pretty different concepts.
Nov 12 23:58:48 <osmosis_> ozarka: they are both linux based phones.
Nov 12 23:59:24 <ozarka> Sort of
Nov 12 23:59:57 <ozarka> openmoko is like a linux computer with a phone
Nov 13 00:00:26 <ozarka> android is like a phone that uses a linux kernel
Nov 13 00:00:45 <osmosis_> ozarka: tradeoff?
Nov 13 00:01:42 <ozarka> If you want to run shell scripts and have all the power of a linux computer, I don't think android will ever meet that requirement.
Nov 13 00:02:28 <ozarka> If you want to have a nice, clean sandbox to run 3rd party apps on your phone, I don't think openmoko will ever meet that requirement.
Nov 13 00:02:46 <ozarka> Both are essentially vaporware at this point in time.
Nov 13 00:03:08 <osmosis_> ok
Nov 13 00:03:11 <ozarka> No offense to the fantastic effort of both android and om.
Nov 13 00:03:11 <osmosis_> fair nuff
Nov 13 00:03:28 <dfas`> what JVM version does the android run?
Nov 13 00:03:36 <osmosis_> i hope the openmoko stuff is able to compete. HTC makes some of the best hardware around.
Nov 13 00:04:20 <ozarka> But if you hate java, android may be hard to take.  At least for now.
Nov 13 00:04:27 <pandora--> hah
Nov 13 00:04:41 <jonbaer> if you think u spotted a typo in API example where would be best to post?
Nov 13 00:04:46 <Stephmw> dfas`: it's a Java 5 capable VM
Nov 13 00:04:55 <ozarka> dfas`: it's a custom vm.  Would a number mean anything?
Nov 13 00:05:35 * Stephmw is still trying to mount that damn virtual disk
Nov 13 00:06:22 <puckett> Does it support JNI?
Nov 13 00:07:03 <Stephmw> puckett: probably... but I doubt for 3rd party devs
Nov 13 00:08:31 <davidw> ok, sleep time...ciao
Nov 13 00:08:39 <puckett> Have a good evening, folks.  Back in a few hours.
Nov 13 00:08:41 <Stephmw> aye, ditto
Nov 13 00:08:42 <mr_daniel> i am a little confused  on the page http://code.google.com/android/what-is-android.html the presence of a C-library is described
Nov 13 00:08:44 <Stephmw> g'night
Nov 13 00:09:07 <mr_daniel> in which programing-language i am able to developse applications for andorid?
Nov 13 00:09:18 <ozarka> puckett:  http://code.google.com/android/toolbox/performance.html#native_methods
Nov 13 00:09:27 <mr_daniel> just java?
Nov 13 00:09:35 <ozarka> mr_daniel:  I asked that earlier and was told just java for now.
Nov 13 00:10:25 <mr_daniel> a java-application is executed in a dalvik virtual machine
Nov 13 00:10:42 <mr_daniel> i don't know if this is very efficient
Nov 13 00:11:01 <ozarka> (from installation doc): Android does not currently support development of third party applications in native code (C/C++).
Nov 13 00:11:15 <mr_daniel> o
Nov 13 00:11:15 <mr_daniel> k
Nov 13 00:11:28 <ozarka> I think it will be plenty efficient.
Nov 13 00:12:08 <davidw> mr_daniel, and Hecl: http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2007/11/12/and-hecl-runs-on-android
Nov 13 00:12:28 <davidw> sleep time, though...later
Nov 13 00:13:58 <mr_daniel> i have never heard about hecl, but a 'mobile scripting language' sounds interesting
Nov 13 00:14:22 <jonbaer> did greenphone die off?
Nov 13 00:14:23 <jonbaer> http://trolltech.com/products/qtopia/greenphone
Nov 13 00:18:19 <mr_daniel> i want to create a new Android Application with Eclipse http://code.google.com/android/intro/installing.html#developingwitheclipse
Nov 13 00:19:02 <mr_daniel> everytime i want to insert a 'package name' like 'somePacakgeName' i am getting the error 'package name mus have at least twi identifiers'
Nov 13 00:19:18 <mr_daniel> what this meand? english is not my native language
Nov 13 00:19:46 <mr_daniel> what ist a 'identifier' and what is a valid package-name?
Nov 13 00:29:11 <don-o> mr_daniel: probably a.b.c
Nov 13 00:29:21 <don-o> mr_daniel: com.mycorp.package would be 3 identifiers
Nov 13 00:31:11 <mr_daniel> don-o: thank you for your help
Nov 13 00:32:58 <mypapit> ok, gtg now.. have phun!
Nov 13 01:07:07 <rwhitby> Hmm - can't play youtube videos on the emulator.
Nov 13 01:14:41 <don-o> rwhitby: no flash
Nov 13 01:25:42 <Writchie> so what's 'toolbox' - closed source busybox?
Nov 13 01:25:50 <morrildl> Writchie: o idea
Nov 13 01:28:42 <Writchie> morrildl: sorry ??
Nov 13 01:29:15 <morrildl> Writchie: sorry, taht was "no idea" :)
Nov 13 01:29:51 <Writchie> ok, looks like some form of workallike to busybox
Nov 13 01:31:06 <ramvi> Hi! Easy question: what eclipse package should I be downloading? Java, Java EE, Classic?
Nov 13 01:34:10 <ramvi> Not an easy question?
Nov 13 01:37:21 <parti> http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/moreinfo/compare.php
Nov 13 01:37:46 <parti> ramvi, if your first intent is to start with android, i suggest the eclipse java ide
Nov 13 01:38:41 <ramvi> thanks
Nov 13 01:47:28 * Writchie has an OS/2 tcpip deja vu moment playing with adb shell 
Nov 13 01:59:04 <rwhitby> ramvi: it doesn't matter - cause you can just install the other components you need.  but yes, java development bundle for android will have what you need.
Nov 13 02:23:00 <Writchie> so what's goldfish?
Nov 13 02:47:02 <dfas> what JVM runs android??
Nov 13 02:49:54 <telexicon> dfas, ?
Nov 13 02:50:18 <dfas> what JVM is android running?
Nov 13 02:50:22 <dfas> java virtual machine
Nov 13 02:50:33 <telexicon> i think its own custom one
Nov 13 02:50:50 <dfas> supports java 5, 6 or 7?
Nov 13 02:51:08 <telexicon> i dont know
Nov 13 02:52:42 <dfas> any google employees here?
Nov 13 02:53:44 <d03boy> we wish
Nov 13 02:54:10 <javamaniac> it's a modified jvm
Nov 13 02:54:19 <javamaniac> looks like it's 1.5-based
Nov 13 02:54:25 <dfas> ok
Nov 13 02:54:37 <d03boy> any clue where the official specs on this OS are?
Nov 13 02:54:38 <dfas> javamaniac: how did you find out?
Nov 13 02:54:47 <javamaniac> dfas, youtube
Nov 13 02:55:04 <javamaniac> d03boy, http://git.android.com/ :)
Nov 13 02:56:03 <javamaniac> dfas, http://youtube.com/watch?v=QBGfUs9mQYY&feature=PlayList&p=D7C64411AF40DEA5&index=0
Nov 13 02:56:09 <edcba> YouTube - Androidology - Part 1 of 3 - Architecture Overview
Nov 13 02:56:27 <dfas> is the android part of the open handset alliance or is google handling *everything* about android?
Nov 13 02:56:31 <javamaniac> heh, a bot
Nov 13 02:56:38 <dfas> will android source code be releaseD?
Nov 13 02:56:54 <javamaniac> I think google IS the open handset alliance, by now...
Nov 13 02:57:08 <d03boy> its them and 30 other phone manufacturers i think
Nov 13 02:57:16 <javamaniac> dfas, http://code.google.com/android/kb/index.html
Nov 13 02:57:17 <d03boy> but im sure they are leading it
Nov 13 02:58:05 <bengl> anyone know if there's plans for the android browser to support java applets? it seems it doesn't at the moment, and it would seem logical for it to support them
Nov 13 02:58:19 <javamaniac> yuck!
Nov 13 02:58:25 <javamaniac> applets?!
Nov 13 02:58:42 <bengl> yeah yeah i know, but there's a method to my madness, i swear
Nov 13 02:58:55 <Writchie> dfas: see license they plan to eventually release MOST of the source
Nov 13 02:59:10 <Writchie> MOST = NOT ALL
Nov 13 02:59:14 <dfas> haha google is always so secret about source code
Nov 13 02:59:25 <javamaniac> i don't think so
Nov 13 02:59:32 <javamaniac> the same happens with maemo
Nov 13 02:59:39 <dfas> maemo?
Nov 13 02:59:45 <Writchie> so far they seem to have release only what they are obligated to release under GPL
Nov 13 02:59:50 <javamaniac> nokia doesn't release all the code
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Nov 13 02:59:56 2007