**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Nov 13 02:59:56 2007
Nov 13 02:59:58 <javamaniac> but the MOST of it
Nov 13 03:00:11 <Writchie> and perhaps replaced some GPL user space stuff with their own
Nov 13 03:00:23 <javamaniac> dfas, yes, maemo, the n800 OS
Nov 13 03:00:32 <javamaniac> ....and platform
Nov 13 03:00:58 <javamaniac> maemo is to nokia what android is to google
Nov 13 03:02:38 <Writchie> it's not entirely clear that you will be able to get out of the java sandbox
Nov 13 03:02:57 <d03boy> huh?
Nov 13 03:03:08 <javamaniac> that will be possible just if the source code is released
Nov 13 03:03:11 <d03boy> well they've created a pretty nice api it seems.. so that shouldn tbe much of a problem
Nov 13 03:03:51 <javamaniac> yeah I think so
Nov 13 03:04:04 <d03boy> i think thats sort of the point.. the OS handles everything for you
Nov 13 03:04:21 <bengl> has anybody gotten started and come up with anything yet?
Nov 13 03:04:23 <Writchie> yeah like windows ;)
Nov 13 03:04:41 <d03boy> bengl, i'll be starting within a few days probably
Nov 13 03:04:46 <d03boy> what are you guys working on?
Nov 13 03:04:49 <javamaniac> I'm just realizing that android was released xD
Nov 13 03:05:08 <d03boy> ya, i heard about it just yesterday
Nov 13 03:05:21 <bengl> i think to just get my feet wet a bit, i'll whip up a little telnet client
Nov 13 03:05:47 <d03boy> i havent even installed the sdk or plugins
Nov 13 03:05:51 <d03boy> does it come with simulator and everythign?
Nov 13 03:05:56 <bengl> then i'll start making a decision about that potential $25000
Nov 13 03:06:03 <bengl> yeah it comes with a sweet lookin emulator
Nov 13 03:06:06 <javamaniac> I'll stick with a irc client
Nov 13 03:06:09 <bengl> i played around with it
Nov 13 03:06:16 <d03boy> javamaniac, im doing an irc client too ;P
Nov 13 03:06:27 <bengl> right off the bat the web browser is pretty good
Nov 13 03:06:34 <javamaniac> heh, so, I maybe begin o think in another thing
Nov 13 03:06:37 <javamaniac> :)
Nov 13 03:06:50 <bengl> and there's an included googlemaps app, so don't bother with that unless you mash it with something else
Nov 13 03:07:13 <rwhitby> Writchie: it was clear from the l-a-k posting of the MSM7K kernel patches that the GPU userspace driver, for instance, is proprietary and will not have sourc code released
Nov 13 03:07:41 <d03boy> anyone know what phones this will run on?
Nov 13 03:07:48 <bengl> HTC and something else
Nov 13 03:09:31 <bengl> the UI is all nice and pretty, obviously trying to compete directly with the iphone UI
Nov 13 03:09:34 <Writchie> rwhitby: it looks like it will be a smorgasborg of binary drivers and proprietary glue - although I hope not
Nov 13 03:10:18 <rwhitby> Writchie: it's clear that there will be proprietary drivers - each handset manufacturer just has to supply a binary that supports the android appi
Nov 13 03:10:20 <rwhitby> api
Nov 13 03:10:53 <bengl> what i haven't seen is anything in the API relating to a GPS, which kinda sucks, but i suppose that will come later
Nov 13 03:10:54 <rwhitby> and since it can run as userspace on the kernel, but outside of the vm sandbox, then the user can't get to it
Nov 13 03:11:09 <rwhitby> (and they aren't obligated to release source)
Nov 13 03:11:11 <Writchie> that runs the VM - which may or not be IP - I can't tell at this moment
Nov 13 03:12:10 <swetland> we are aiming for "no binary drivers in the kernel"
Nov 13 03:12:35 <swetland> but individual OEMs *could* do something like that.  we strongly encourage them not to do so.
Nov 13 03:13:27 <Writchie> swetland: hope you don't take our critiques too personally, lots of skeptics in here (some with arrows in their backs)
Nov 13 03:13:40 <t00na> telexicon: come back!
Nov 13 03:13:55 <t00na> telexicon: we miss you!
Nov 13 03:14:26 <swetland> I've been through this sort of thing before.  Could be much worse.
Nov 13 03:14:35 <telexicon> ...
Nov 13 03:14:40 <Writchie> well its only been one day ;)
Nov 13 03:14:43 <t00na> telexicon: we... we love you!
Nov 13 03:14:56 <telexicon> will somebody kick t00na  :-/
Nov 13 03:15:06 <telexicon> t00na, stop following me
Nov 13 03:15:13 <t00na> then come back!
Nov 13 03:15:13 <bengl> swetland: any plans to have GPS stuff in the API? or am i just not finding it there?
Nov 13 03:15:28 <Writchie> i love my gsm operator - i love my handset maker - i love M$ - right.
Nov 13 03:15:36 <javamaniac> telexicon, please come back, they love u
Nov 13 03:15:37 <swetland> I *thought* there was an API for that, but maybe it didn't make the cut for the first SDK drop
Nov 13 03:15:46 <swetland> I work at the kernel level, not the toolkit level
Nov 13 03:15:47 <telexicon> javamaniac, meh
Nov 13 03:15:57 <t00na> we love you, telexicon
Nov 13 03:16:11 <javamaniac> yeah, that's for sure....
Nov 13 03:16:14 <swetland> for bugs or missing features or whatnot, posting on the android-developers group is probably the best thing
Nov 13 03:16:37 <swetland> the developer advocates monitor that, they file bugs against the engineering team in response to issues raised externally, etc
Nov 13 03:17:01 <javamaniac> that's good to know
Nov 13 03:17:09 <bengl> yeah thx for that info
Nov 13 03:17:19 <javamaniac> but a Bug tracking system would be a good idea too
Nov 13 03:17:29 <swetland> mention that!
Nov 13 03:17:41 <t00na> telexicon: we made brownies that are shaped like your head
Nov 13 03:17:53 <telexicon> t00na, meh
Nov 13 03:18:03 <telexicon> couldn't you have made the other kind of brownie?
Nov 13 03:18:03 <javamaniac> Who's op in this channel?
Nov 13 03:18:13 <t00na> We made both kinds.
Nov 13 03:18:16 <Writchie> swetland: I notice reference to ARM9EJ-S - is J variant required?
Nov 13 03:18:18 <t00na> Both out of sadness.
Nov 13 03:18:21 <t00na> and emptiness.
Nov 13 03:18:25 <telexicon> :-/
Nov 13 03:18:27 <t00na> Right after you left.
Nov 13 03:18:30 <telexicon> t00na, stop.. seriously
Nov 13 03:18:33 <t00na> okay
Nov 13 03:18:50 <javamaniac> se fue la totona
Nov 13 03:23:53 <Writchie> swetland: would it be fair to say that tivoization is optional, discouraged, but not precluded?
Nov 13 03:26:58 <swetland> I really hate the term "tivoization"
Nov 13 03:27:42 <d03boy> what package should I make my project in? I dont have an org or company... com.?.whatever
Nov 13 03:28:01 <Writchie> swetland: ack
Nov 13 03:28:10 <bengl> d03boy: make one up
Nov 13 03:28:11 <swetland> our general stance is we don't want to *force* anyone to do anything
Nov 13 03:28:41 <swetland> we recognize that OEMs may want to include some proprietary bits. we encourage them to do this in userspace if they *must* do it
Nov 13 03:31:11 <Writchie> swetland: looks like there are lost of non-open source user-space bits already e.g. "toolbox" or is the plan to release these?
Nov 13 03:31:25 <Writchie> lost = lots
Nov 13 03:31:28 <swetland> toolbox will be apache2/bsd on ship
Nov 13 03:31:41 <Writchie> cool
Nov 13 03:31:48 <swetland> as will pretty much everything in the SDK
Nov 13 03:32:08 <Writchie> VM spec is biggest black hole at the moment
Nov 13 03:32:47 <Writchie> the license language MOST is a bit scary to some since it means NOT ALL
Nov 13 03:33:14 <bengl> ah, found GPS related stuff in the API, though not sure how i'll be able to test it at all with the emulator
Nov 13 03:33:35 <swetland> yeah, unfortunately I can't say definitively "ALL" because there could be a bit here or there that might be proprietary (largely depending on an OEM's choice on a particular device)
Nov 13 03:34:25 <swetland> and until we actually release the sources for the vast majority of the system, people are going to be skeptical.  I am not in a position to make definitive statements -- I cannot speak on behalf of Google here
Nov 13 03:34:27 <rwhitby> e.g. the GPU
Nov 13 03:35:00 <swetland> rwhitby: yeah, good example of something that would likely involve a closed library. though that would depend on the particular GPU/SOC vendor, etc, etc
Nov 13 03:35:37 <rwhitby> swetland: yes - but the non-existence-proof of an open source mobile GPU driver (or even doco for such) means that it will be an uphill battle.
Nov 13 03:36:48 <Writchie> swetland: IMHO the most important part is the VM - if that were proprietary or encumbered by IP that could be a big problem for some.
Nov 13 03:37:18 <Writchie> swetland: that part seems to be under google's control - not dependent on hardware OEM
Nov 13 03:37:45 <rwhitby> Writchie: and is also the most likely part for Google to keep proprietary, as it's the competitive edge against other mobile OS's.
Nov 13 03:37:52 <Writchie> it just looks like a "choke point" to us natural born skeptics/cinics
Nov 13 03:37:58 <swetland> the current plan for the VM is "Apache2", like just about everything else.
Nov 13 03:38:16 <rwhitby> swetland: that's good new
Nov 13 03:38:17 <rwhitby> s
Nov 13 03:38:29 <Writchie> we hope it won't be a long time to see that current plan become reality.
Nov 13 03:38:29 <swetland> there will be a lot more (and more definitive) information on this over time
Nov 13 03:39:38 <Writchie> it's difficult to buy the embedded argument for the java byte code - especially when you emulate a 926EJ-S
Nov 13 03:39:55 <swetland> we do not make any use of the Jazelle extension
Nov 13 03:39:59 <swetland> and have no plan to do so
Nov 13 03:40:22 <swetland> 926EJ-S is what Qemu provided as an ARM9 platform
Nov 13 03:40:36 <Writchie> gotcha
Nov 13 03:40:59 <Writchie> so the arch is built for simple ARM9?
Nov 13 03:41:05 <rwhitby> nice - "cover view" for browser history :-)
Nov 13 03:41:15 <swetland> yup. Basically we target ARMv5
Nov 13 03:41:34 * rwhitby wonders how fast it would be on an NSLU2 ...
Nov 13 03:41:41 <dfas> swetland: you're with google?`
Nov 13 03:41:41 <Writchie> and goldfish i presume is some hardware?
Nov 13 03:41:46 <swetland> as the baseline. not planning on supporting non-mmu cores, ARM7s, etc
Nov 13 03:41:58 <swetland> goldfish is the virtual platform we implement in the emulator
Nov 13 03:42:24 <swetland> easier to just do simple virtual peripherals than to spend a lot of effort emulating some specific piece of hardware
Nov 13 03:42:35 <kazim59> Hello. Is programming for Android possible only in Java?
Nov 13 03:42:50 <rwhitby> dfas: swetland is a google kernel developer - he pushed some msm7k kernel patches to linux-arm-kernel just the other day.
Nov 13 03:43:00 <Writchie> swetland: is BT bluez if you can say?
Nov 13 03:43:20 <rwhitby> swetland: do you star in any of the videos?
Nov 13 03:43:45 <swetland> http://code.google.com/android/reference/org/bluez/package-summary.html
Nov 13 03:44:04 <Writchie> tx
Nov 13 03:44:11 <swetland> rwhitby: there's a couple second clip of me making some random remarks in one of the videos they released with the OHA announcement.
Nov 13 03:44:59 <dfas> swetland: what source control system does google use?
Nov 13 03:45:00 <rwhitby> swetland: the "Introducing Android" video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rYozIZOgDk ?
Nov 13 03:45:06 <edcba> YouTube - Introducing Android
Nov 13 03:45:09 <swetland> yah
Nov 13 03:45:23 <billshovel> p
Nov 13 03:45:52 <apollo7889> Hello room.
Nov 13 03:46:37 <rwhitby> swetland: ah, "System Tech Lead" :-)
Nov 13 03:47:06 <rwhitby> (for others, 1:25 in that video)
Nov 13 03:48:08 <kazim59> anybody has any idea about having android development in any other lang then java.lang?
Nov 13 03:48:26 <rwhitby> night Writchie|zzzZZzz
Nov 13 03:49:00 <apollo7889> It seems they have spent quite a lot of work writing it in java...
Nov 13 03:49:45 <kazim59> I'm rather... I don't know Java!
Nov 13 03:49:48 <apollo7889> I'm not a fan of the language, but it seems to be the language everyone likes to use.
Nov 13 03:49:58 <apollo7889> How could you not know java...
Nov 13 03:50:08 <apollo7889> It's got all the basics...
Nov 13 03:50:22 <don-o> java was a god-send in 94
Nov 13 03:50:22 <apollo7889> They teach it to 8th graders...
Nov 13 03:50:26 <apollo7889> I think you can learn.
Nov 13 03:50:34 <apollo7889> Yes, it's time for something new...
Nov 13 03:50:54 <don-o> google obviously likes java since gmail was written in it
Nov 13 03:50:59 <apollo7889> Maybe thats what "android" tries to do. Take the work out of cell phone development.
Nov 13 03:51:21 <kazim59> Ya... I know and love Ruby
Nov 13 03:51:28 <apollo7889> Never touched it.
Nov 13 03:51:36 <rwhitby> I like the state saving stuff - reminds me of PalmOS
Nov 13 03:51:51 * rwhitby is watching Androidology Part 2
Nov 13 03:52:15 <kazim59> don-o: yes because Java *is* quite productive
Nov 13 03:52:30 <telexicon> hmm
Nov 13 03:52:35 <telexicon> i wish they would add python though
Nov 13 03:52:36 <rwhitby> swetland: is the late-binding of intents done on every request (i.e. each time you click on a new mail message) or is there some caching which is managed by the package manager?
Nov 13 03:52:38 <telexicon> that would be fun
Nov 13 03:52:50 <telexicon> google likes python anyways.. why not?
Nov 13 03:52:51 <kazim59> How much time do I need to learn Java?
Nov 13 03:53:07 <apollo7889> Um, depends on what else you have programmed.
Nov 13 03:53:18 <kazim59> apollo7889: C & Ruby.. lol
Nov 13 03:54:06 <don-o> kazim59: ruby has all there is no know about java and then some. just add static types.
Nov 13 03:54:16 <don-o> s/no know/to know/
Nov 13 03:54:28 <kazim59> don-o: great!
Nov 13 03:54:45 * don-o hearts ruby
Nov 13 03:55:30 <telexicon> maybe somebody could get jython going on android
Nov 13 03:56:09 <apollo7889> Um, so what can you actually do on this new platform? I mean, are we all going to be stuck to our cell phones rather than our computer screens
Nov 13 03:56:20 <apollo7889> Flashy cellphone, downfall of man.
Nov 13 03:56:36 <telexicon> i dont know
Nov 13 03:57:46 <apollo7889> The youtube video's worth watching?
Nov 13 03:57:52 <rwhitby> yes
Nov 13 03:58:01 <rwhitby> 4 or 5 of them
Nov 13 03:59:01 <rwhitby> cool - RPC via XMPP, device to device via xmpp syndication
Nov 13 03:59:27 <apollo7889> Ok.
Nov 13 03:59:37 <apollo7889> So, you can talk to another device.
Nov 13 03:59:44 <apollo7889> Bluetooth?
Nov 13 04:00:17 <rwhitby> it needs an xmpp server (i.e. google talk server) in the middle
Nov 13 04:00:17 <apollo7889> Is there a market for phone to phone?
Nov 13 04:00:51 <telexicon> can you get access to sockets?
Nov 13 04:00:59 <telexicon> like could you make a web server for your phone
Nov 13 04:01:04 <apollo7889> Nice.
Nov 13 04:01:07 <apollo7889> Sounds like fun.
Nov 13 04:01:12 <rwhitby> telexicon: you can read the APIs as well as I can :-)
Nov 13 04:01:18 <telexicon> fine :p
Nov 13 04:02:12 <rwhitby> remember that phones are usually behind NAT on most provider networks, so you need a third party server that both phones talk to - e.g. xmpp (Google Talk Server)
Nov 13 04:02:26 <apollo7889> Ah...
Nov 13 04:02:32 <telexicon> oh
Nov 13 04:02:37 <apollo7889> So Google handles the middle man?
Nov 13 04:02:44 <apollo7889> With this platform.
Nov 13 04:03:00 <rwhitby> at the moment it's xmpp and only gmail accounts.
Nov 13 04:03:19 <apollo7889> Are we going to be seeing a picking a choosing of "features" like we see in the current cellphone market?
Nov 13 04:03:32 <rwhitby> they could do any xmpp syndicated server if they wanted to I expect, but I also expect that google will keep it as gmail.com accounts only to drive more adoption of gmail.com accounts
Nov 13 04:03:38 <don-o> isnt that cool? Jabber is an interesting choice for message passing.
Nov 13 04:04:00 <telexicon> don-o, well at least its an open protocol
Nov 13 04:04:09 <don-o> rwhitby: it better let me connect to any xmpp server by the time its released.
Nov 13 04:04:23 <telexicon> so, who is ready to make a zimbra sync feature?
Nov 13 04:04:31 <don-o> telexicon: yup. and they've worked on publish/subscribe, too.
Nov 13 04:04:42 <rwhitby> don-o: I expect you will be able to change the xmpp api java code and enable that yourself.
Nov 13 04:05:47 <rwhitby> (assuming the source for the xmpp service is open)
Nov 13 04:24:49 <doofy`> so why should i care about android when it doesnt seem much different than the other java based platforms
Nov 13 04:38:00 <telexicon> doofy`, its open?
Nov 13 04:38:25 <telexicon> doofy`, its made by google (thats a big one)
Nov 13 04:39:07 <doofy`> app dev is all java though...
Nov 13 04:39:29 <doofy`> that seems pretty lacking
Nov 13 04:40:43 <telexicon> doofy`, well there is frameworks for everything
Nov 13 04:40:55 <telexicon> doofy`, but its open, you can change stuff if you want
Nov 13 04:41:11 <telexicon> doofy`, my hope is that they will come to their senses and allow people to use python as well
Nov 13 04:44:25 <kazim59> telexicon: and ruby too :(
Nov 13 04:44:58 <telexicon> well
Nov 13 04:45:14 <telexicon> google likes python
Nov 13 04:45:39 <telexicon> and ruby is .. well ill keep that to myself
Nov 13 04:45:57 <ogunnaike> and scheme
Nov 13 04:46:03 <elbastardo> I'm using ERC Version 5.2 with GNU Emacs 22.1.50.1 (i386-apple-darwin8.10.1, Mac Carbon) of 2007-11-05.
Nov 13 04:46:20 <ogunnaike> elbastardo, nice..
Nov 13 04:46:30 <ogunnaike> does it run the android sdk?
Nov 13 04:46:35 <elbastardo> scheme is nice
Nov 13 04:47:51 <telexicon> well
Nov 13 04:47:59 <telexicon> you could built it all on top of the jvm
Nov 13 04:48:07 <telexicon> stuff like jython or whichever
Nov 13 04:50:35 <ogunnaike> like sisc
Nov 13 04:54:22 <telexicon> oh ok
Nov 13 04:55:49 <ogunnaike> http://sisc-scheme.org/sisc-online.php android gots to have something like this for extensibility
Nov 13 04:59:59 <doofy`> python, c++, etc would be nice
Nov 13 05:00:42 <telexicon> yes python would be nice
Nov 13 05:00:47 <telexicon> i dont think they'd go for C++ or C
Nov 13 05:00:53 <telexicon> and i dont think it would make any sense either
Nov 13 05:01:00 <doofy`> whys that?
Nov 13 05:01:06 <telexicon> because the phones might have different processors
Nov 13 05:01:13 <doofy`> true.
Nov 13 05:01:19 <doofy`> could turn in to quite the hassle
Nov 13 05:01:47 <doofy`> the problem is theyre pushing that 3d acceleration, but high level languages (i know i know java is "fast") dont cut it usually
Nov 13 05:02:00 <telexicon> well
Nov 13 05:02:10 <telexicon> they arent pushing quake 4 3d acceleration
Nov 13 05:02:21 <doofy`> they had doom :)
Nov 13 05:02:26 <telexicon> they had quake 1
Nov 13 05:02:34 <eno> so let's say i have a 3rd party jar file i need to use, where do I add in the src tree?  how does Dalvik VM's classloader work?
Nov 13 05:02:46 <telexicon> too i mean
Nov 13 05:02:59 <telexicon> i think the 3d acceleration is used to smooth the 2d graphics
Nov 13 05:03:16 <telexicon> like how OS X does it, it uses 3d hardware to make the 2d graphics (which are just flat 3d) run smoother
Nov 13 05:03:17 <doofy`> the platform is really cool, i do admit
Nov 13 05:03:39 <telexicon> so far ive found the java API to be pretty nice
Nov 13 05:03:39 <doofy`> whats eta on a more complete sdk?
Nov 13 05:03:59 <telexicon> i wonder when some real hardware comes out
Nov 13 05:04:07 <doofy`> im an old hiptop developer so i do like the API quite a bit
Nov 13 05:04:23 <telexicon> plus theres the security issue
Nov 13 05:04:33 <telexicon> i dont think they'd want people writing a bunch of native stuff
Nov 13 05:05:03 <telexicon> doofy`, have you tried out the emulator?
Nov 13 05:05:10 <doofy`> sounds like theyre avoiding open by doing that :P
Nov 13 05:05:11 <doofy`> yes i ahve
Nov 13 05:05:16 <rwhitby> telexicon: seems that each app is a process in linux with it's own user, so native stuff could still be kept safe
Nov 13 05:06:13 <telexicon> rwhitby, well, i think they might be trying to protect developers from themselves
Nov 13 05:06:22 <doofy`> linux can handle security on its own... by trying to keep app development at a high level in the VM its just avoiding being fully open
Nov 13 05:06:43 <telexicon> and still.. having someone remotely take over an app, they could still do some damage
Nov 13 05:06:57 <telexicon> like get into your email or launch spam attacks from your phone
Nov 13 05:07:12 <doofy`> but wouldnt that be the users problem?
Nov 13 05:07:28 <doofy`> i thought it was trying to have the same paradigm as all free/libre software
Nov 13 05:09:18 <telexicon> well
Nov 13 05:09:22 <telexicon> see thats the problem
Nov 13 05:09:39 <telexicon> we arent google's target audience
Nov 13 05:10:22 <telexicon> they dont want end users to have to deal with the security themselves because well..
Nov 13 05:10:27 <telexicon> people are dumb
Nov 13 05:11:25 <doofy`> it is true... but i think at some point you have to allow the users to control everything and not try to protect them. Theres ways to do it... look at grandmas using ubuntu :)
Nov 13 05:12:05 <doofy`> then again i look for a better way for them to have a portable mobile OS and i cant seem to come up with one.
Nov 13 05:12:27 <doofy`> the only thing you can do is use portable languages.... ruby, python, java...
Nov 13 05:12:45 <telexicon> i really hope they add python
Nov 13 05:13:37 <doofy`> it would be nice, thats for sure
Nov 13 05:14:04 <doofy`> are they planning on opening the OS more than they currently have? if so it would be possible to brew up python for it
Nov 13 05:14:43 <telexicon> id like it best though if it was google supported
Nov 13 05:15:03 <telexicon> which i wouldnt be surprised
Nov 13 05:15:06 <telexicon> google likes python
Nov 13 05:15:16 <doofy`> very much so
Nov 13 05:15:24 <doofy`> look at the SDK
Nov 13 05:15:36 <telexicon> it has python scripts in it
Nov 13 05:16:31 <doofy`> it will be interesting to see how things develop thats for sure
Nov 13 05:16:53 <doofy`> a device with a multi touch interface would be cool
Nov 13 05:17:15 <telexicon> and the other thing is
Nov 13 05:17:26 <telexicon> yea it would be nice if android was completely open source
Nov 13 05:17:34 <telexicon> but i think i should take what i can get for now
Nov 13 05:17:41 <telexicon> its better than having completely proprietary everything
Nov 13 05:17:51 <telexicon> at least people will have more freedom for hardware
Nov 13 05:19:02 <swetland> ah we are making some more definitive statements on the open source stuff
Nov 13 05:19:05 <swetland> for people asking earlier:
Nov 13 05:19:07 <swetland> http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_frm/thread/e07c6296c2f8f925/ce848a736913e04b?lnk=gst&q=morrildl#ce848a736913e04b
Nov 13 05:20:07 <telexicon> wow
Nov 13 05:20:11 <telexicon> that is great!
Nov 13 05:20:19 <swetland> yeah there's been a bit of confusion about that
Nov 13 05:20:37 <telexicon> will the multimedia framework have integrated support for ogg vorbis/theora and
Nov 13 05:20:57 <swetland> we're not doing full system source drops while the sdk is in flux, but eventually all the goodies will be available
Nov 13 05:21:16 <telexicon> is anyone talking about having python available to use?
Nov 13 05:21:22 <telexicon> besides me :)
Nov 13 05:21:39 <swetland> 1.0 is focused on java for the apps development environment
Nov 13 05:21:55 <swetland> doing other language bindings is certainly something that could be done though
Nov 13 05:22:00 <ogunnaike> i was talking about scheme before
Nov 13 05:22:10 <doofy`> anyone know who Dan Morril works for?
Nov 13 05:22:15 <swetland> Google
Nov 13 05:22:31 <elbastardo> ogunnaike: tell us about scheme please
Nov 13 05:23:07 <ogunnaike> yeahs, something like sisc in android would be very nice.
Nov 13 05:23:17 <telexicon> scheme is
Nov 13 05:23:19 <ogunnaike> scheme is not as popular as python
Nov 13 05:23:37 <ogunnaike> its a lisp derivative i believe
Nov 13 05:23:40 <ogunnaike> or a dialect of
Nov 13 05:23:51 <telexicon> yes i know about scheme just
Nov 13 05:24:06 <telexicon> i wasnt never able to get my head around functional languages properly :)
Nov 13 05:24:13 <telexicon> ever*
Nov 13 05:24:48 <ogunnaike> theres nothing to get your head around really. you just need to get rid of vi
Nov 13 05:25:09 <telexicon> no no
Nov 13 05:25:13 <linux_galore> did someone say java and fast in the same sentence lol
Nov 13 05:25:15 <telexicon> vim is my editor forever
Nov 13 05:25:18 <eno> swetland: so let's say i have a 3rd party jar file i need to use, where do I add in the src tree?   how does Dalvik VM's classloader work?
Nov 13 05:25:20 <ogunnaike> i mean use emacs for editing scheme code
Nov 13 05:25:25 <telexicon> linux_galore, on a dedicated java processor yea
Nov 13 05:25:33 <doofy`> linux_galore, java is surprisingly quick now
Nov 13 05:25:46 <d03boy> has been since 1.5
Nov 13 05:25:48 <linux_galore> doofy`: java apps still run slow for me
Nov 13 05:25:56 <telexicon> java 6 starts a lot faster now too
Nov 13 05:25:56 <swetland> eno: I'm a kernel engineer -- frameworks stuff is a bit outside of my realm. I know that *can* be done, but don't know exactly how to set it all up offhand
Nov 13 05:26:25 <linux_galore> doofy`: then again Im an asm person so C runs slow
Nov 13 05:26:35 <eno> alright, thx swetland
Nov 13 05:26:39 <swetland> the android-developers google group is probably the best place for questions like this. the developer advocates monitor it and provide help there
Nov 13 05:27:02 <linux_galore> room needs a question bot
Nov 13 05:27:07 <doofy`> So in regards to native application development. Google could set up a compiling backend that can take the source and compile for the various architectures... look at Ubuntu's launchpad. Google has plenty of processing power to do it too.
Nov 13 05:27:21 <linux_galore> channel*
Nov 13 05:27:25 <doofy`> linux_galore, you a kernel hacker or what?
Nov 13 05:27:40 <ogunnaike> lol
Nov 13 05:28:16 <linux_galore> doofy`: no, I work for a company thats makes a rather large amount of small gadgets
Nov 13 05:28:31 <doofy`> oh alright
Nov 13 05:28:53 <elbastardo> ogunnaike: is this "lisp" still in use , i thought it is some 1960s' tool
Nov 13 05:29:16 <ogunnaike> elbastardo: not so much. its gone underground
Nov 13 05:29:21 <elbastardo> android is so 21st century
Nov 13 05:29:25 <linux_galore> I know a few people who love lisp, most of them are also emacs nuts strangely enough
Nov 13 05:29:42 <swetland> pure coincidence, I'm sure
Nov 13 05:29:56 <linux_galore> heh
Nov 13 05:30:12 * swetland hides his .elisp directory
Nov 13 05:30:40 <elbastardo> you guys talk about emacs , i only have it installed so i can chat on freenode
Nov 13 05:30:42 <elbastardo> I'm using ERC Version 5.2 with GNU Emacs 22.1.50.1 (i386-apple-darwin8.10.1, Mac Carbon) of 2007-11-05.
Nov 13 05:31:23 <swetland> I pretty much only use it as an editor. I don't run shells, irc, news, mail, etc in it like some people I know.
Nov 13 05:31:32 * linux_galore likes erlag so cant really pick on lisper's 
Nov 13 05:31:53 <elbastardo> swetland: gnus is lots of fun
Nov 13 05:32:20 <linux_galore> erlang*
Nov 13 05:33:08 <linux_galore> i havent update emacs on this machine for a while
Nov 13 05:33:19 <swetland> a coworker of mine at ncsa used to operate *entirely* in xemacs. he never understood why we used these fancy, new-fangled shells with command history and completion and stuff, because "emacs takes care of all that stuff for you"
Nov 13 05:33:21 <telexicon> git is great
Nov 13 05:33:41 <linux_galore> GNU Emacs 21.4.2
Nov 13 05:33:48 <puckett> Is there an existing issue tracker for submitting fetaure requests & bugs?
Nov 13 05:33:51 <elbastardo> linux_galore: thats old :)
Nov 13 05:34:15 <linux_galore> well this machine has been running now for two years with 3 reboots for kernel updates
Nov 13 05:34:24 <telexicon> because modularity is a good engineering principle
Nov 13 05:35:18 <ogunnaike> wouldnt it be nice if you didnt have to compile apps on android. yeahs.. modularity.. scheme can be modular
Nov 13 05:35:38 <ogunnaike> interpreted too
Nov 13 05:35:41 <ogunnaike> thats always nice
Nov 13 05:35:42 <telexicon> thats where the python comes in
Nov 13 05:36:10 <linux_galore> yeah, Python is cool for that
Nov 13 05:37:32 <ogunnaike> i wonder how jython devel is going
Nov 13 05:37:42 <elbastardo> i thought python was the tool of choice for iPhone apps
Nov 13 05:38:14 <ogunnaike> oh wow.. python 2.2.1 now. nice
Nov 13 05:38:23 <telexicon> nah, jython is no good
Nov 13 05:38:31 <telexicon> i mean as a last resort fine.. but
Nov 13 05:38:39 <telexicon> it'd be really nice to get CPython
Nov 13 05:38:50 <ogunnaike> oh..
Nov 13 05:38:50 <telexicon> elbastardo, what iPhone apps?
Nov 13 05:39:33 <elbastardo> telexicon: not sure , but they brag about it on developer.apple.com
Nov 13 05:39:54 <telexicon> elbastardo, well thats nice for people who work at apple.. but what about everybody else...
Nov 13 05:40:03 <elbastardo> so true
Nov 13 05:40:07 <linux_galore> lol @ iPhone apps, isnt that an oxymoron
Nov 13 05:40:35 <elbastardo> you keep jailbreaking it , they keep brikin it
Nov 13 05:40:42 <elbastardo> the fun never ends
Nov 13 05:40:46 <ogunnaike> i gotta let google know i want this scheme functionality
Nov 13 05:40:47 <telexicon> id much rather have this
Nov 13 05:41:03 <telexicon> an open framework for developing apps
Nov 13 05:41:09 <ogunnaike> is there an addy where i can send feature requests?
Nov 13 05:41:12 <elbastardo> ogunnaike: you need to write a cool app , then u might get a chunk outa 10 mill
Nov 13 05:41:30 <linux_galore> yeah, Apple hasnt even released an sdk yet, I thing Apple seriously stuffed up there
Nov 13 05:41:31 <swetland> bugs/features/questions -> http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers
Nov 13 05:41:35 <ogunnaike> elbastardo: well, i'm planning on writing scheme apps
Nov 13 05:41:36 <linux_galore> think*
Nov 13 05:41:43 <ogunnaike> swetland: thanks
Nov 13 05:41:44 <swetland> this is monitored by the developer advocates group
Nov 13 05:42:04 <rwhitby> http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/13/android-under-the-hood
Nov 13 05:43:08 <elbastardo> rwhitby: thanx for the link , it looks like aussies are ahead of the game
Nov 13 05:43:09 <puckett> rwhitby: You write that?
Nov 13 05:43:29 <telexicon> so is it busybox?
Nov 13 05:44:15 <rwhitby> puckett: no, someone else
Nov 13 05:44:20 <swetland> toolbox
Nov 13 05:44:30 <swetland> it's like busybox but smaller and apache2 licensed ^^
Nov 13 05:45:02 <rwhitby> also: http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/13/android-native-apps
Nov 13 05:45:12 <swetland> yay people picking the system apart
Nov 13 05:45:16 * swetland gets out the popcorn
Nov 13 05:45:34 <telexicon> its what people do
Nov 13 05:45:48 <rwhitby> swetland: yeah, must be good fun for you to see how quickly people can find stuff out.
Nov 13 05:46:04 <swetland> it's fun to watch. I hope people have fun playing with it
Nov 13 05:46:24 <rwhitby> swetland: I run the nslu2-linux project - this is like having a new toy :-)
Nov 13 05:46:35 <swetland> yay slugs!
Nov 13 05:46:46 <rwhitby> swetland: you know of it?
Nov 13 05:47:00 <swetland> yeah. haven't used one myself but have seen stuff about 'em. they sound like cute little devices
Nov 13 05:47:08 <rwhitby> any slugs in Google?
Nov 13 05:47:19 <swetland> wouldn't be surprised. it's a big place
Nov 13 05:47:45 <Zoolooc_> what about the more powerful buffalo linkstations?
Nov 13 05:48:45 <swetland> ahaha, we obviously did not scrub everything:
Nov 13 05:48:51 <swetland> strings doesn't provide much more information, but it seems someone was frustrated enough during development to see the need for the string Stupid C library hack !!.
Nov 13 05:49:01 <rwhitby> swetland: is there any doco available about the API that is used by the debugger connection to the dalvik processes?
Nov 13 05:49:21 <swetland> it's JDWP (iirc)
Nov 13 05:49:31 <swetland> totally standard
Nov 13 05:49:50 <d03boy> i use jdwp for blackberry develoment
Nov 13 05:50:38 <swetland> different debuggers use the protocol differently, so some IDEs may have issues with the system, but I know several have been tested
Nov 13 05:50:47 <rwhitby> swetland: is it the case that each application is running as it's own linux user, in a separate process, where each process is an instance of the dalvik VM ?
Nov 13 05:51:16 <telexicon> android doesnt run everything as root like the iPhone right? ^^
Nov 13 05:51:28 <swetland> rwhitby: yup
Nov 13 05:51:34 <rwhitby> telexicon: no, each app is a unique userid
Nov 13 05:51:44 <telexicon> rwhitby, excellent
Nov 13 05:51:59 <swetland> telexicon: if all goes well there will only be 3 root processes by the time we're done, including init
Nov 13 05:52:00 <rwhitby> swetland: what does the coordination of all those VMs - is it just the linux scheduler or is there another layer there?
Nov 13 05:52:10 <telexicon> swetland, thats great
Nov 13 05:52:21 <telexicon> swetland, are there plans to use like MAC or is that too much overhead
Nov 13 05:52:28 <swetland> I was totally floored to find out the iphone guys ran everything as root
Nov 13 05:52:58 <rwhitby> swetland: heh - now that you're out of the lock-down, you can blog about all the iphone mistakes :-)
Nov 13 05:53:13 <swetland> rwhitby: they're just plain 'ol processes but the ApplicationManager coordinates stuff. should be info about that in the docs I believe
Nov 13 05:53:26 <swetland> rwhitby: dumping on other products is kinda tacky
Nov 13 05:53:35 <swetland> and iphone does a lot of things very well
Nov 13 05:54:23 <rwhitby> swetland: there's dumping, and then there is robust technical comparisons ...
Nov 13 05:54:41 <swetland> I've got a number of friends who work on iphone. they're all awesome engineers doing great work. wish we could have hired some of them here ^^
Nov 13 05:54:46 <elbastardo> can android be used in CDMA networks ? or with CDMA phones
Nov 13 05:55:09 <swetland> depends on the kernel and the ril
Nov 13 05:55:09 <telexicon> elbastardo, wouldnt that be up to the hardware manufacturer?
Nov 13 05:55:21 <swetland> system needs a 2.6.23 kernel to provide hw support
Nov 13 05:55:27 <rwhitby> swetland: ril?
Nov 13 05:55:40 <rwhitby> radio interface library?
Nov 13 05:55:49 <swetland> and there is a "radio interface layer" daemon that provides the interface to the underlying cellular networking stuff (which varies depending on chipset and oem)
Nov 13 05:56:23 <rwhitby> ah, yes - that would be a daemon rather than a kernel module for licensing reasons
Nov 13 05:56:44 <puckett> What's the flag for promiscuous mode?  :)
Nov 13 05:57:22 <d03boy> swetland, what dev role do you play in android?
Nov 13 05:57:30 <sleepynate> puckett: i believe it's +heysexy
Nov 13 05:57:31 <swetland> rwhitby: yup that's one of the bits that is likely to be replaced by a proprietary module
Nov 13 05:57:40 <swetland> I'm the systems tech lead / kernel lead for the project.
Nov 13 05:57:41 <rwhitby> nod
Nov 13 05:58:14 <swetland> I totally should *not* be spening my time chattering on irc, but it's fun watching some of the early reaction. can't promise I'll be here this much in the future. lots to do
Nov 13 05:58:42 <rwhitby> swetland: for my money, you guys have made some very pragmatic decisions about how to architect things to encompass licensing and security as first-class engineering constraints.
Nov 13 05:58:49 <ds2> swetland: how physically spread out are the teams at G?
Nov 13 05:58:52 <rwhitby> ... very good pragmatic ...
Nov 13 05:59:16 <swetland> rwhitby: we try -- it's a tough balancing act building something that's as open as possible and also meets oem and carrier needs
Nov 13 05:59:26 <rwhitby> indeed
Nov 13 05:59:58 <swetland> we won't know for sure how well it goes until people start shipping devices, but I have high hopes
Nov 13 06:00:10 <rwhitby> there will of course be gpl zealots who will cry foul of any tiny bit of proprietary code, but android looks to me like it's hit the right balance.
Nov 13 06:00:50 <swetland> talking oems into making every single thing on a device open source is a pretty insanely hard sell
Nov 13 06:01:12 <sleepynate> hah, i can imagine that one now :D
Nov 13 06:01:23 <swetland> gotta give them some room to differentiate or plug in their secret sauce that they see as their value add
Nov 13 06:01:45 <swetland> we're trying to do it in a way where they have some clear places to do that without interfering with the platform
Nov 13 06:01:57 <swetland> and without going down the "binary kernel drivers" route or other undesirable things like that
Nov 13 06:02:13 <ogunnaike> are there plans of porting the sdk to the bsd's in the future?
Nov 13 06:02:36 <swetland> no plans at present. once the whole thing's open source it'd be pretty easy to port though
Nov 13 06:02:49 <swetland> we've kinda got our hands full supporting linux/osx/win32
Nov 13 06:03:12 <swetland> post to the developers group though and ask about stuff like this
Nov 13 06:03:22 <swetland> getting it on the radar for the dev support people is always a good thing
Nov 13 06:03:23 <ogunnaike> i will
Nov 13 06:03:34 <Zoolooc> there is much talk about open source, letting people believe that everything will be open source
Nov 13 06:05:29 <wmealing> just wondering, can one access the microphone under the android libs ?
Nov 13 06:05:53 <eno> DalvikVM version 0.2.0
Nov 13 06:05:53 <eno> Copyright (C) 2007 Google, Inc.
Nov 13 06:05:56 <eno> Blah blah blah LICENSE blah blah.
Nov 13 06:06:04 <eno> :-)
Nov 13 06:06:10 <d03boy> what is the word "Dalvik" mean?
Nov 13 06:06:16 <telexicon> so what kind of app distribution system will there be?
Nov 13 06:06:35 <telexicon> will there be a place for developers to post their apps on like a 'store'?
Nov 13 06:06:39 <jasonchen> d03boy: Dalvik is the name that was given to the virtual machine
Nov 13 06:07:20 <jasonchen> d03boy: it's a city in Iceland :-)
Nov 13 06:08:04 <d03boy> i see
Nov 13 06:08:11 <Zoolooc> d03boy: more like a village, and pretty north
Nov 13 06:08:30 <Zoolooc> must be some metaphor
Nov 13 06:08:32 <swetland> I honestly have no idea what's up with our VM lead's fascination with the place
Nov 13 06:08:35 <puckett> Yes, any insights into signing requirements, etc?
Nov 13 06:09:26 <d03boy> apparently Dalvik has high tec industry
Nov 13 06:09:39 <swetland> Too early to talk app distribution models and stuff.  If things go as planned, I think people will like what they see.
Nov 13 06:09:43 <puckett> Distribution is the most infuriating part of j2me.  For all its other faults, at least that is clear-cut in Brew.
Nov 13 06:10:12 <wmealing> ah, Media recorder class, thanks
Nov 13 06:10:41 <rwhitby> eno: are you working on an optware port for android?
Nov 13 06:10:52 <jasonchen> telexicon: we can't say anything yet about app distribution, but let's just say that we've been thinking hard about the challenges that currently exist
Nov 13 06:11:33 <eno> rwhitby: as soon as they have the dalvikvm source open ...
Nov 13 06:12:03 <rwhitby> there's no chat app in the initial SDK - I expected to at least see a google talk app using the xmpp service ...
Nov 13 06:12:21 <CM> Zoolooc: Dal = valley and vik = bay in swedish, and probably the same in icelandic
Nov 13 06:12:52 <eno> the emulator is running arm little endian, will big endian work? how about non-ARM CPUs?
Nov 13 06:13:21 <swetland> no current support for non-arm or be-arm cpus, but it certainly could be done
Nov 13 06:13:41 <swetland> if you look at the mobile market, little-endian arm is pretty unbelievably dominant, so we felt that a good starting point
Nov 13 06:13:44 <rwhitby> eno: DalvikSlug?
Nov 13 06:13:50 <Zoolooc> swetland: which people would like what they see? those buying a phone like iphone, wanting the UI to look fancy and cool, and expecting that everything works and not bother with anything, like technical details, or also the geek / dev type really always wanting to hack (you know what I mean, in a good sense) almost every device they buy?
Nov 13 06:14:07 <swetland> zoolooc: hopefully all of them
Nov 13 06:14:21 <CM> swetland: x86 should be quite high on the list shouldn't it, just thinking about Intels embedded x86 plans..
Nov 13 06:14:35 <Zoolooc> so no barriers for the latter, nice then
Nov 13 06:14:37 <swetland> those groups have somewhat different needs, but I believe they could all be met if we do things right
Nov 13 06:15:21 <telexicon> this is really great
Nov 13 06:15:24 <sleepynate> seems they're only made mutually exclusive by the companies who put out the products, and Google rarely does that :D
Nov 13 06:15:48 <telexicon> only 5 years till its out of beta
Nov 13 06:15:48 <d03boy> this is kind of cool that we're here in irc chatting with a google dev
Nov 13 06:16:05 <telexicon> :)
Nov 13 06:16:27 <swetland> no rules that I can't waste time on irc too. just gotta be careful not to say something that freaks out the PR folks or my management ^^
Nov 13 06:16:47 <sleepynate> d03boy: heh. come to ann arbor. can't throw a rock without hitting one. (not that you're not special swetland :] )
Nov 13 06:17:14 <swetland> so, apologies about questions that go unanswered. I'll occasionally drop some things on the floor rather than entering territory that is hazardous.
Nov 13 06:17:24 <swetland> s/that is/that are/
Nov 13 06:17:32 <CM> Understandable :)
Nov 13 06:17:42 <ds2> hmmm
Nov 13 06:18:08 <Zoolooc> it all boils down to the same old story, doesn't it
Nov 13 06:19:42 <rwhitby> swetland: yeah, play it safe - we want to keep you around :-)
Nov 13 06:20:10 <rwhitby> swetland: how much emphasis has been placed on offline operation as opposed to always-connected operation?
Nov 13 06:20:32 <rwhitby> seems that google gears must fit in somewhere ...
Nov 13 06:23:44 <rwhitby> I like the screen capture facility in the Eclipse DDMS perspective.
Nov 13 06:24:14 <swetland> the dev tools guys have been doing some really great stuff with the integrated ddms goodies
Nov 13 06:24:31 <swetland> one fun fact: all the stuff that works with the emulator is *identical* with real hardware over usb
Nov 13 06:24:36 <d03boy> every try to develop for blackberry? it took me 2 weeks to set up the environment
Nov 13 06:24:50 <d03boy> and it still hardly works
Nov 13 06:24:52 <d03boy> (with eclipse)
Nov 13 06:25:17 <synap> ahok a channel ;)
Nov 13 06:25:27 <jasonchen> howdy synap
Nov 13 06:25:30 <synap> heya ;)
Nov 13 06:25:42 <puckett> d03boy: I'm currently writing an Eclipse plugin for Blackberry.  JDE is, um, not good and it's cumbersome with Eclipse...
Nov 13 06:25:52 <d03boy> thank you!
Nov 13 06:26:02 <d03boy> puckett, can I get some more info on this so I can keep up with it by chance?
Nov 13 06:26:28 <rwhitby> anyone know what the Binder threads do?
Nov 13 06:26:43 <puckett> Maybe I'll get some inspiration from what the Android folks have done (ie screen capture, etc)
Nov 13 06:27:39 <puckett> Lots of people are asking about Binder.  Should post that to the group if no one's done it yet
Nov 13 06:28:38 <rwhitby> jasonchen: would it be possible to write some JNI code which talks to gnueabi-gcc C/C++ code which you upload via adb push?
Nov 13 06:28:54 <puckett> d03boy Send an email to rapuckett@gmail.com and I'll let you know when it's available
Nov 13 06:29:41 <d03boy> gotcha
Nov 13 06:31:21 <rwhitby> ah, you can create an External Tool in Eclipse for adb, and get access to adb shell via an eclipse console window ...
Nov 13 06:31:41 <jasonchen> rwhitby: i'm not sure that it's possible today, but enabling app devs to build apps that call out to their own native code is something we're thinking about
Nov 13 06:31:44 <swetland> oh cute
Nov 13 06:32:05 <swetland> the guy doing the eclipse plugin just keeps adding handy little features
Nov 13 06:32:10 <swetland> almost makes me wish I used an IDE
Nov 13 06:32:31 <rwhitby> swetland: oh, that's a standard eclipse thing - but it would be nice to package it as part of the Android plugin
Nov 13 06:32:47 <swetland> aha
Nov 13 06:33:02 <rwhitby> (i.e. so it knows where to find adb and so forth automatically)
Nov 13 06:33:47 <rwhitby> do - toolbox 'ls' doesn't like -lR
Nov 13 06:33:51 <rwhitby> s/do/doh/
Nov 13 06:35:11 <swetland> the toolbox commands are *very* minimal
Nov 13 06:36:23 <rwhitby> time to write a perl script which downloads the complete rootfs via adb shell ls and adb pull
Nov 13 06:36:40 <rwhitby> or is the rootfs available online somewhere already?
Nov 13 06:36:59 * rwhitby looks for the eclipse perl plugin ...
Nov 13 06:38:05 <eno> it's all in tools/lib/images/system.img , isn't it?
Nov 13 06:39:58 <rwhitby> eno: yes, but you want to compare the runtime image against that to see any changes after boot ...
Nov 13 06:40:34 <rwhitby> ok, I'm sold on this Eclipse thing now :-)
Nov 13 06:40:37 <eno> i c
Nov 13 06:41:14 <d03boy> eclipse is fantastical
Nov 13 06:46:24 <CM> jeddy3: Morning ;)
Nov 13 06:46:31 <rwhitby> eno: I think we should cross-compile some basic utils so we can see if we can get a network connection from the adb shell, and then use ipkg to install optware packages as you suggested
Nov 13 06:48:54 <jeddy3> CM ;)
Nov 13 06:50:43 <rwhitby> eno: would our http://ipkg.nslu2-linux.org/feeds/optware/cs05q3armel/cross/unstable/ feed work out of the box?
Nov 13 06:51:49 <eno> i'm objdump'ing toolbox
Nov 13 06:51:49 <rwhitby> eno: perhaps we can be the first to put busybox on there
Nov 13 06:52:06 <Zoolooc> off to work, cu guys
Nov 13 06:53:13 <puckett> Any idea if there will be support for using external GPS pucks, Bluetooth dongles, etc with the emulator?
Nov 13 06:54:03 <d03boy> i think all phones are required to have gps in them now dont they?
Nov 13 06:55:19 <puckett> Yeah, for e911.  I'm thinking for development purposes until actual phones start becoming available - would be nice to code against LBS and Bluetooth...
Nov 13 06:55:37 <d03boy> true
Nov 13 06:55:41 <jasonchen> puckett: take a look at android.location
Nov 13 06:56:16 <d03boy> im off to bed so I can fail a geology final in the morning. nice talking
Nov 13 06:56:34 <jasonchen> puckett: we provide a way to develop against mock LocationProviders
Nov 13 06:56:46 <puckett> ciao!
Nov 13 06:56:55 <ogunnaike> the linux android emulator runs flawless on freebsd under linux emulation btw
Nov 13 06:56:59 <ogunnaike> flawless
Nov 13 06:57:09 <puckett> Thanks jasonchen
Nov 13 06:58:33 <jasonchen> puckett: you're welcome.  there's a overview on LBS in Android at http://code.google.com/android/toolbox/apis/lbs.html
Nov 13 07:10:48 <puckett> Been a fun day.  Night all!
Nov 13 08:29:35 <cutmasta> re
Nov 13 09:00:48 <ledil> ehlo
Nov 13 09:01:09 <ledil> can I expect a python sdk for android ? :)
Nov 13 09:01:20 <davidw> 'morning
Nov 13 09:01:35 <davidw> ledil, if you start hacking on it, then yes;-)
Nov 13 09:01:42 <ledil> heh
Nov 13 09:02:09 <ledil> for that I need native C on the device ;)
Nov 13 09:02:20 <ledil> so with a java sdk only there is no chance ...
Nov 13 09:03:01 <telexicon> i agree
Nov 13 09:03:08 <telexicon> nah, i think google should provide it
Nov 13 09:03:14 <telexicon> i wouldnt want an unsupported hacked up one
Nov 13 09:03:21 <telexicon> google loves python anyways.. why not?
Nov 13 09:03:56 <ledil> I hope so ... because there is no need to port something, everything is available ;)
Nov 13 09:04:58 <davidw> jython
Nov 13 09:05:12 <ledil> nah
Nov 13 09:06:28 <ledil> jypthon is crazy :)
Nov 13 09:11:18 <telexicon> jython just isnt the same
Nov 13 09:15:32 <CM> ledil: If you want python, get an OpenMoko phone instead ;)
Nov 13 09:17:00 <davidw> well, it's python isn't it?
Nov 13 09:17:24 <CM> OpenMoko?
Nov 13 09:17:43 <ledil> CM, I want python on android ... and not openmoko
Nov 13 09:18:02 <CM> ledil: Then I hope google will let you put it on there :)
Nov 13 09:18:06 <Stephmw> good morning!
Nov 13 09:18:22 <ledil> lets hope ...
Nov 13 09:18:34 * ledil hopes that google starts realsing a pysdk
Nov 13 09:18:55 <rwhitby> eno has just created a staticly linked hello.exe from C which works on android
Nov 13 09:19:27 <ledil> how ? I havent see any C sdk only java sdk ...
Nov 13 09:20:22 <rwhitby> using a standard eabi armel cross-compilation toolchain, and adb push and adb shell hello
Nov 13 09:20:23 <telexicon> rwhitby, by brute forcing it? :)
Nov 13 09:20:37 <telexicon> .exe?
Nov 13 09:20:42 <telexicon> android doesnt use ELF? :(
Nov 13 09:21:00 <rwhitby> yes, it was just hello, not hello.exe
Nov 13 09:21:11 <ledil> telexicon, it should use ELF
Nov 13 09:21:11 <rwhitby> s/.exe//
Nov 13 09:21:17 <telexicon> oh
Nov 13 09:21:22 <rwhitby> it's normal armel elf binary
Nov 13 09:21:30 <ledil> yes
Nov 13 09:21:35 <davidw> see what you can do when you start hacking instead of just bitching?:-)
Nov 13 09:22:04 <rwhitby> toolchain from codesourcery
Nov 13 09:24:04 <telexicon> davidw, but unsupported just isnt as good
Nov 13 09:24:57 <rwhitby> if you wait for supported things, you're always behind everyone else
Nov 13 09:26:11 <rwhitby> benno also did the same thing a number of hours ago: http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/13/android-native-apps
Nov 13 09:27:58 <davidw> cool
Nov 13 09:28:55 <swetland> bonus points for a dynamic executable
Nov 13 09:31:38 <telexicon> bonus points indeed
Nov 13 09:32:22 <Stephmw> I'm wondering if I'm missing some kernel modules - I still can't mount those qemu sys images :(
Nov 13 09:39:41 <davidw> swetland, it's late over there... Since you guys have your own vm, can it still take advantage of the java acceleration in hardware somehow?
Nov 13 09:39:54 <swetland> jazelle is not all that useful
Nov 13 09:41:09 <Stephmw> swetland: I disagree
Nov 13 09:41:15 <swetland> information on the finer details of this will accompany more vm info in the future, but that's the quick answer
Nov 13 09:41:51 <Stephmw> is pointless if the vm is jitted, or if what the SDK produces as a package isn't real java bytecode however
Nov 13 09:42:33 <zoolooc> swetland: dont' you ever sleep? (that's actually a good thing ;) )
Nov 13 09:42:59 <swetland> I do sleep. been a bit random about it this week. launch is always a bit crazy
Nov 13 09:51:42 <rwhitby> swetland: for dynamic exe we need to work out your funky libc
Nov 13 10:17:52 <marcreichelt> hi there :)
Nov 13 10:18:40 <marcreichelt> I just looked at the Android samples
Nov 13 10:19:19 <marcreichelt> and I think Android is just the platform I want to have on my mobile phone :)
Nov 13 10:19:34 <telexicon> you do?
Nov 13 10:19:48 <marcreichelt> telexicon: yes ;)
Nov 13 10:19:55 <marcreichelt> why the question?
Nov 13 10:20:02 <telexicon> so what kinds of apps are people going to make
Nov 13 10:20:23 <marcreichelt> I'm here looking for people like me to just start developing some
Nov 13 10:20:29 <marcreichelt> e.g. I miss a music player
Nov 13 10:20:43 <marcreichelt> anybody that is interested in starting a music player project for Android?
Nov 13 10:20:50 <SunboX> i want a youtube video search / player ;o)
Nov 13 10:21:00 <telexicon> id like zimbra sync
Nov 13 10:21:06 <SunboX> or an userfriendlich contactlist
Nov 13 10:21:19 <marcreichelt> :)
Nov 13 10:21:48 <SunboX> what about an media center?
Nov 13 10:21:55 <telexicon> web server
Nov 13 10:21:55 <SunboX> like win vista media center
Nov 13 10:21:59 <telexicon> id like a web server on my phone
Nov 13 10:22:01 <marcreichelt> web server ;)
Nov 13 10:22:05 <SunboX> with included video / audio player
Nov 13 10:22:11 <SunboX> and youtube video search
Nov 13 10:22:13 <marcreichelt> telexicon: a web server in Java is not hard
Nov 13 10:22:23 <telexicon> i dunno if we have sockets
Nov 13 10:22:31 <marcreichelt> humm
Nov 13 10:22:37 <telexicon> maybe at least ssh client
Nov 13 10:22:44 <marcreichelt> :)
Nov 13 10:22:50 <marcreichelt> hey
Nov 13 10:22:51 <telexicon> ohh or i could emulate an X server
Nov 13 10:22:56 <telexicon> that would be fun
Nov 13 10:22:59 <marcreichelt> an ssh client would be great, too
Nov 13 10:23:02 <telexicon> then i can get remote X on my phone
Nov 13 10:23:02 <marcreichelt> yep
Nov 13 10:23:38 <marcreichelt> I would be interested in writing a music player (or ssh client, because I'm using Linux)
Nov 13 10:23:48 <CM> telexicon: All that already exists and works on OpenMoko
Nov 13 10:24:00 <CM> But I hope it will work on Android too soon :)
Nov 13 10:24:03 <telexicon> CM, great.. so i can just take all their hard work
Nov 13 10:24:11 <telexicon> ^^
Nov 13 10:24:14 <CM> Hehe
Nov 13 10:24:26 <marcreichelt> so if anybody wants to start something like that, please let me know :)
Nov 13 10:24:55 <CM> marcreichelt: If you start working on something cool, people will join if you let them ;)
Nov 13 10:24:58 <marcreichelt> who is interested in writing a music player here?
Nov 13 10:25:20 * marcreichelt is dreaming of an amarok for Android
Nov 13 10:25:48 <telexicon> id like a rhythmbox :p
Nov 13 10:25:49 <davidw> yeah, if you want it, do it
Nov 13 10:26:12 <SunboX> i want a synthesizer :P
Nov 13 10:27:11 <telexicon> well.. lets get started
Nov 13 10:27:36 <SunboX> hm, i installed the eclipse plugin
Nov 13 10:27:45 <SunboX> are there any bugs?
Nov 13 10:27:55 <Stephmw> of course!
Nov 13 10:28:00 <SunboX> k
Nov 13 10:28:01 <Stephmw> ... nothing is bugfree :D
Nov 13 10:28:05 <davidw> this mailing list isn't so hot:-/
Nov 13 10:28:11 <Stephmw> davidw: agreed
Nov 13 10:28:16 <Stephmw> davidw: we need a -devel list
Nov 13 10:28:20 <davidw> this channel is definitely better
Nov 13 10:28:21 <telexicon> whats wrong with the mailing list?
Nov 13 10:28:32 <telexicon> i like having IRC
Nov 13 10:28:48 <telexicon> for me it works better to be able to interact with people in real time
Nov 13 10:28:52 <Stephmw> davidw: the android list is pretty much as bad as the harmony list was
Nov 13 10:29:18 <davidw> too much junk.  Hopefully it will die down in a few days after the pesterers go find someone else to bother;-)
Nov 13 10:30:24 <Stephmw> "I *wanna* *wanna* have POINTERS!" "*Booooo*! Where's my ASM?????!?!!!!!111111"
Nov 13 10:30:31 <Stephmw> that's pretty much the mailing list atm
Nov 13 10:30:41 <Stephmw> *ahem*
Nov 13 10:32:34 <j0N45> oh the humanity
Nov 13 10:33:04 <telexicon> i think that would be a bad idea
Nov 13 10:37:07 <marcreichelt> btw
Nov 13 10:37:12 <marcreichelt> where is the mailing list?
Nov 13 10:37:32 <marcreichelt> http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?
Nov 13 10:39:28 <wom-> just wondering.. how big of an effort would it be to port android to, lets say, N770 or N800 :)
Nov 13 10:40:07 <iwkse> does actually adroid supports only java apps?
Nov 13 10:40:45 <marcreichelt> no iwkse
Nov 13 10:40:54 <marcreichelt> http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/t/3b859cce04c4e1c2
Nov 13 10:40:56 <iwkse> marcreichelt: tell me that i can write C stuff?:)
Nov 13 10:41:09 <marcreichelt> read ;)
Nov 13 10:41:17 * iwkse reading..
Nov 13 10:41:18 <marcreichelt> yes, you can
Nov 13 10:41:25 <iwkse> marcreichelt: sweet:)
Nov 13 10:41:45 <marcreichelt> I wouldn't like to write native applications on Android
Nov 13 10:42:02 <marcreichelt> IMHO it's better if most applications are written in Java
Nov 13 10:42:20 <[AD]Turbo> hi there
Nov 13 10:42:25 <iwkse> marcreichelt: sure..i'm just wondering if claws mail could run on adroid. it does on n800
Nov 13 10:42:33 <marcreichelt> :)
Nov 13 10:45:28 <davidw> does Android support Visual Forth ++ yet?
Nov 13 10:45:48 <telexicon> sorry
Nov 13 10:45:57 <telexicon> i dont think anybody should be writing apps in C for android
Nov 13 10:45:58 <telexicon> get over it
Nov 13 10:46:15 <telexicon> the developer 'cloud' has already proven they cant handle it
Nov 13 10:46:23 <j0N45> amen
Nov 13 10:46:24 <marcreichelt> of course this would make it easier to run Apache or lighttpd on it
Nov 13 10:46:30 <iwkse> :)
Nov 13 10:46:36 <iwkse> java is cool but C is better
Nov 13 10:46:41 <iwkse> sorry telexicon
Nov 13 10:46:42 <telexicon> thats nice
Nov 13 10:46:46 <marcreichelt> c is faster
Nov 13 10:46:49 <marcreichelt> yes
Nov 13 10:46:50 <iwkse> yes
Nov 13 10:46:56 <telexicon> imo java is a poor language and i realize C is faster
Nov 13 10:47:08 <iwkse> java is good cause it's easy to produce
Nov 13 10:47:17 <iwkse> it's great how you can write apps
Nov 13 10:47:23 <iwkse> that's imho a good feature that miss in c
Nov 13 10:47:23 <telexicon> however, for things where i matters, C is used in the linux kernel where all access to it is stringently controlled
Nov 13 10:47:29 <marcreichelt> IMHO Java is pretty cool, I just would like it a bit faster
Nov 13 10:47:38 <iwkse> agreed
Nov 13 10:47:41 <Stephmw> marcreichelt: where have you used java in the past?
Nov 13 10:47:50 <telexicon> but its too risky to be letter random people make C apps to put on mobile phones
Nov 13 10:47:53 <marcreichelt> university
Nov 13 10:47:56 <telexicon> letting*
Nov 13 10:48:01 <marcreichelt> :)
Nov 13 10:48:03 <Stephmw> marcreichelt: so not on mobile devices then?
Nov 13 10:48:08 <marcreichelt> not yet
Nov 13 10:48:09 <marcreichelt> why?
Nov 13 10:48:13 <iwkse> telexicon: anyway i wasn't speaking about coding C but porting an app
Nov 13 10:48:19 <Stephmw> because java on phones is fast
Nov 13 10:48:24 <marcreichelt> ok
Nov 13 10:48:26 <marcreichelt> kewl
Nov 13 10:48:46 <iwkse> rewriting claws mail in java isn't bearable:)
Nov 13 10:49:00 <marcreichelt> my current mobile phone is about 4 years old ;)
Nov 13 10:49:04 <Stephmw> iwkse: that's a fair point, rewriting apps will blow
Nov 13 10:49:06 <telexicon> no more buffer overflows
Nov 13 10:49:14 <Stephmw> iwkse: and not just for you... there's no j2me support either
Nov 13 10:49:28 <Stephmw> iwkse: I think that lack is a big error
Nov 13 10:49:29 <marcreichelt> I would like to buy an openmoko this year
Nov 13 10:49:36 <marcreichelt> but know I don't know if I should
Nov 13 10:49:45 <Stephmw> marcreichelt: depends what you want from your phone
Nov 13 10:49:51 <Stephmw> marcreichelt: if you want to make calls... wait
Nov 13 10:50:03 <marcreichelt> ?
Nov 13 10:50:25 <marcreichelt> I have already seen an OpenMoko Phase -1 device in action
Nov 13 10:50:27 <marcreichelt> ;)
Nov 13 10:50:42 <Stephmw> the current OM stuff is really for low level devs - it's really not stable
Nov 13 10:50:50 <Stephmw> :)
Nov 13 10:50:59 <marcreichelt> I know
Nov 13 10:51:34 <marcreichelt> but I saw how nice a linux console is on it ;)
Nov 13 10:51:44 <marcreichelt> 270dpi
Nov 13 10:51:55 <davidw> think of a mobile phone virus
Nov 13 10:52:02 <davidw> that's why they started off with java
Nov 13 10:52:06 <CM> marcreichelt: 283 ;)
Nov 13 10:52:10 <marcreichelt> oh
Nov 13 10:52:11 <marcreichelt> yeah
Nov 13 10:52:13 <marcreichelt> sorry ;)
Nov 13 10:52:19 <CM> Hehe
Nov 13 10:53:02 <CM> If you want to have something truly open and hackable, even hardware wise, and code in c or python, get a Neo1973 and run OpenMoko
Nov 13 10:53:27 <davidw> I'm curious what sort of other uses people will find for this in the embedded space
Nov 13 10:53:30 <CM> But I'm sure that Android with that nice SDK and clever API will be easier to develop for
Nov 13 10:53:40 <davidw> I mean, it's originally for phones, but that part should be easy to chop out
Nov 13 10:54:10 <marcreichelt> CM: I want my mobile phone to work correctly
Nov 13 10:54:44 <telexicon> davidw, but python is safe
Nov 13 10:54:56 <Stephmw> davidw: agreed
Nov 13 10:55:00 <marcreichelt> and Android will be better here than OpenMoko
Nov 13 10:55:11 <marcreichelt> but eventually Android will run on OpenMoko
Nov 13 10:55:16 <Stephmw> I honestly believe that BOTH OpenMoko and Android have a place
Nov 13 10:55:24 <Stephmw> different target markets and all that
Nov 13 10:55:26 * CM agrees with Stephmw 
Nov 13 10:56:07 <davidw> yeah? how different?  I don't think it's a market with that much space for two different, flexible open source efforts
Nov 13 10:56:33 <swetland> true. mobile is only a 3 billion handset market or whatnot these days
Nov 13 10:56:41 <swetland> gets awfully crowded out there I bet
Nov 13 10:57:00 <Stephmw> davidw: operators and manufacturers are a picky lot
Nov 13 10:57:35 <Stephmw> davidw: android currently seems easier to close up than OM
Nov 13 10:57:56 <Stephmw> davidw: no matter how distasteful that may be
Nov 13 10:58:15 * Stephmw has two hats... mobile dev and open source dev
Nov 13 10:59:00 <davidw> swetland, I think the economics are akin to those of operating systems, because it is one.  That makes it... well, not a winner take all market, but there's pressure in that direction.
Nov 13 11:00:12 <Stephmw> the economics are less like the desktop OS market actually
Nov 13 11:00:18 <davidw> currently what do we have... some random linux efforts, symbian, MS's thing, openmoko, and some others like blackberry.
Nov 13 11:00:27 <Stephmw> the user has zero choice in the mobile markets
Nov 13 11:00:29 <swetland> in any case, it'd be a lot easier for openmoko to host the android runtime or for the android surfaceflinger to host X/gtk/whatnot surfaces than to bolt either of 'em into some other system.
Nov 13 11:00:40 * Stephmw nods
Nov 13 11:01:08 <Stephmw> swetland: there's always the WeirdX java X implementation :D
Nov 13 11:01:11 * Stephmw cackles insanely
Nov 13 11:01:50 <swetland> I think the fundamental thing is software and experience becoming important to users (iphone has helped a lot there).  I think open can become important to users as well.
Nov 13 11:01:56 * CM wonders if dual booting OpenMoko and Android with the same kernel would be possible
Nov 13 11:02:19 <Stephmw> kexec?
Nov 13 11:02:27 <swetland> can openmoko run on 2.6.23? (I assume yes)
Nov 13 11:02:28 <marcreichelt> CM: i think so
Nov 13 11:02:38 <CM> swetland: yes
Nov 13 11:03:01 <swetland> no problem at all then. the android platform expects a couple drivers that it needs but they shouldn't bother OM
Nov 13 11:03:38 <CM> swetland: What about the boot loader, is that some secret thing?
Nov 13 11:03:41 <swetland> running 'em both simultaneously would require a bit more work, but rigging something up to fire up one or the other at boot sounds simple enough (provided you have enough flash for both systems)
Nov 13 11:03:50 <swetland> boot loader depends on the platform. we're agnostic
Nov 13 11:04:00 <swetland> if it can start a linux kernel, we're happy
Nov 13 11:04:01 <CM> Nice indeed, thanks
Nov 13 11:04:24 <robtaylor> swetland: hey, is there any documentation on what Binder is? Is it related to OpenBinder?
Nov 13 11:05:54 <swetland> not sure if we have general docs on the binder. it's an ipc mechanism and is related to openbinder (currently using the openbinder driver, but a new userspace implementation)
Nov 13 11:05:56 <robtaylor> swetland: (btw, I was just perusing the kernel driver last night, you know that there's standard atomic_* operations in newer kernels,right? ;)
Nov 13 11:06:16 <swetland> which kernel driver? the binder?
Nov 13 11:06:19 <robtaylor> swetland: yep
Nov 13 11:06:23 <swetland> yeah it's being replaced
Nov 13 11:06:27 <robtaylor> cool :)
Nov 13 11:06:34 <swetland> the original binder driver has a very long and colorful past
Nov 13 11:06:45 <swetland> a clean and modern implementation is in the works
Nov 13 11:06:48 <robtaylor> so what does binder gain over, say, d-bus?
Nov 13 11:07:04 <swetland> I'm not the best person to answer binder questions
Nov 13 11:07:38 <swetland> some of the things it does including single copy (the driver write writes directly into shared memory available to the target process), managing object lifecycle across processes, etc
Nov 13 11:08:07 <swetland> it's technically an "implementation detail" of the higher level ipc in the platform
Nov 13 11:08:08 <robtaylor> interesting
Nov 13 11:08:29 <swetland> so the sdk docs don't really talk about it much because it just makes things go under the hood
Nov 13 11:09:06 <robtaylor> yeah, I'm a lower level userspace kinda guy, so there doesnt seem much info for the bits I'm interested in..
Nov 13 11:09:13 <robtaylor> :(
Nov 13 11:09:21 <swetland> there will be, in time
Nov 13 11:09:31 <swetland> we're starting up top with app developer stuff
Nov 13 11:09:52 <swetland> over time and as more releases are done, docs will expand into the lower levels and implementation details
Nov 13 11:09:52 <robtaylor> swetland: are you going to be opening up your scm?
Nov 13 11:10:11 <swetland> still figuring out how to manage scm when we open source stuff
Nov 13 11:10:19 <swetland> lots of issues as far as how to make it all go
Nov 13 11:10:57 <robtaylor> swetland: I reccommend using git and having strict internal/external split
Nov 13 11:11:22 <swetland> still trying to see how git will handle a project of this size
Nov 13 11:11:33 <swetland> the submodule support is starting to move ahead and that may help
Nov 13 11:11:47 <robtaylor> swetland: yeah, submodules are teh way to go
Nov 13 11:12:09 <swetland> I've been very happy with git for the kernel work we're doing
Nov 13 11:12:10 <robtaylor> swetland: seperate git repos for each component, then arrange them in an overall tree using submodules
Nov 13 11:12:15 <swetland> it's come a loooong way in the last 2ish years
Nov 13 11:12:25 <robtaylor> then you've got nice release tagging ability :)
Nov 13 11:12:29 <telexicon> git is so fun
Nov 13 11:12:29 <robtaylor> swetland: hell yeah
Nov 13 11:12:41 <Stephmw> swetland: what topics should we bother you with btw? :)
Nov 13 11:13:14 <robtaylor> swetland: there's still a few bits that need a bit of usability love (remote handling is still pretty messy)
Nov 13 11:13:22 <swetland> for anything support related you should bug the regular developer advocates (here or on the list)
Nov 13 11:13:26 <robtaylor> but its a lovely tool
Nov 13 11:13:50 <robtaylor> swetland: so who'se your main Binder guy?
Nov 13 11:15:05 <swetland> we're trying to keep the advocates as the front end for questions as we are really busy at this point
Nov 13 11:16:16 <telexicon> wow you guys must be really busy
Nov 13 11:16:37 <Stephmw> swetland: fair enough - I'll write up my various questions for the mailing list
Nov 13 11:16:46 <telexicon> whos idea was it to have 'tech talks'.. thank them because those are awesome
Nov 13 11:17:05 <Tomasu> I've just installed the sdk and eclipse plugin, and when trying to create a new project in eclipse, I get a little red X in the dialog banner, and "next" and "finish" are greyed out. I cant seem to create a new project.
Nov 13 11:18:00 <Tomasu> is there something I'm doing wrong?
Nov 13 11:18:12 <cutmasta> Tomasu, did you filled out all fields?
Nov 13 11:18:20 <cutmasta> the text error is currently missing i think
Nov 13 11:18:34 <Tomasu> yes.
Nov 13 11:18:39 <CM> Tomasu: I had the same problem
Nov 13 11:18:48 <Tomasu> CM, what fixed it?
Nov 13 11:19:01 <wom-> is your package name in form com.something.woot
Nov 13 11:19:08 <Tomasu> hmm
Nov 13 11:19:09 <Tomasu> no
Nov 13 11:19:12 <cutmasta> no whitespaces
Nov 13 11:19:21 <CM> wom-: That Was probably my mistake
Nov 13 11:19:21 <cutmasta> and package style is needed for this
Nov 13 11:19:35 <cutmasta> Tomasu, enter somethink like org.mypackage.test
Nov 13 11:19:38 <Tomasu> ahh, yeah, the com.xxx.blah fixed it
Nov 13 11:19:41 <Tomasu> thanks :)
Nov 13 11:19:48 <wom-> good :)
Nov 13 11:20:12 <CM> wom-: Thanks too :)
Nov 13 11:20:15 <marcreichelt> hehe
Nov 13 11:20:15 <wom-> :)
Nov 13 11:20:26 <marcreichelt> .oO(Tomasu owns xxx.com?)
Nov 13 11:20:28 <marcreichelt> ;)
Nov 13 11:20:38 <Tomasu> probably notice, I'm a n00b java dev. I haven't done any java in ages, and I haven't touched eclipse for anything more complex than cdt...
Nov 13 11:20:46 <Tomasu> marcreichelt: yup, .net and .org, I'm going with .org  ;D
Nov 13 11:20:52 <marcreichelt> hehe
Nov 13 11:20:53 <marcreichelt> lol
Nov 13 11:21:06 <Tomasu> well .com too, but thisisnt commercial
Nov 13 11:21:07 <Tomasu> ;D
Nov 13 11:21:32 <Tomasu> oh wait, not xxx, but tomasu ::)
Nov 13 11:21:37 <Tomasu> heh
Nov 13 11:21:46 <Tomasu> xxx was an example :P
Nov 13 11:22:19 * Tomasu adds #android to autojoin...
Nov 13 11:22:51 <marcreichelt> *gg*
Nov 13 11:22:57 <Tomasu> now to get back into java...
Nov 13 11:23:05 <CM> Tomasu: I'm impressed with your html skillz on tomasu.com ;)
Nov 13 11:23:32 <Tomasu> lol
Nov 13 11:23:46 <Tomasu> I havent put anything up there yet.
Nov 13 11:23:56 <Tomasu> my old site is at strangesoft.net if that helps :P
Nov 13 11:23:59 <marcreichelt> humm
Nov 13 11:24:01 <marcreichelt> mine is http://213.239.194.27/
Nov 13 11:24:02 <marcreichelt> ;)
Nov 13 11:24:44 <Tomasu> heh
Nov 13 11:24:45 <Tomasu> awww
Nov 13 11:24:52 <Tomasu> and here I had some hope :(
Nov 13 11:25:01 <marcreichelt> ? ;)
Nov 13 11:25:05 <Tomasu> j/k
Nov 13 11:25:11 <telexicon> none? :"(
Nov 13 11:25:25 <Tomasu> hmm, does the android plugin let you access the android docs via eclipse?
Nov 13 11:26:33 <Tomasu> eh, this is what dual displays are for. dev on one, docs on the other.
Nov 13 11:27:07 <marcreichelt> so
Nov 13 11:27:28 <Stephmw> Tomasu: two problems there... 1) Eclipse reads javadocs from java sources, 2) Google didn't provide proper javadocs... no idea why
Nov 13 11:27:38 <Tomasu> yeah..
Nov 13 11:27:48 <Tomasu> so I just opened up the docs from the sdk
Nov 13 11:28:03 <Tomasu> eclipse at least provides the type hirearchy
Nov 13 11:28:34 <Stephmw> yeah, that can be introspected from the class files
Nov 13 11:28:45 <Stephmw> as can the various signatures
Nov 13 11:29:06 <marcreichelt> it would be good if the javadocs are accessible via Eclipse, yes
Nov 13 11:29:23 <marcreichelt> I think this will come in next days when the source code is released
Nov 13 11:29:33 <marcreichelt> if it is released (?)
Nov 13 11:29:42 <marcreichelt> humm - will be released
Nov 13 11:30:55 <Stephmw> yeah, it's still kinda vague about which bits will be released or not
Nov 13 11:31:04 <davidw> when it escapes, leaving a bloody trail of QA people in its wake
Nov 13 11:31:14 <Stephmw> the license agreement also needs some attention, as it stands it's really a bad license
Nov 13 11:32:08 <davidw> if there are significant bits that aren't open source, that will leave a bad taste in my mouth... for now I don't want to get paranoid though
Nov 13 11:32:12 <Tomasu> odd, the docs say eclipse 3.3 is required yet I installed to 3.2.2 and it seems to work...
Nov 13 11:32:29 <Stephmw> the docs I saw yesterday said 3.2.2 or 3.3
Nov 13 11:32:58 <Tomasu> oh, this is just for one of the examples, maybe this page wasnt updated...
Nov 13 11:32:59 <marcreichelt> so
Nov 13 11:33:34 * marcreichelt is away for a while
Nov 13 11:34:42 <Tomasu> the pop ups when "importing" stuff is removing stuff I type...
Nov 13 11:35:00 <Tomasu> oh, its hiding it...
Nov 13 11:44:54 <Tomasu> guh: TextView cannot be resolved to a type
Nov 13 11:46:27 <Tomasu> I'm importing android.widget.*, that should handle TextView shouldnt it?
Nov 13 11:48:58 <cutmasta> Tomasu, you use eclipse?
Nov 13 11:49:03 <Tomasu> right
Nov 13 11:49:05 <Stephmw> Tomasu: if you've created an Android-type project, it should resolve
Nov 13 11:49:12 <cutmasta> that just hit strg+shift+o
Nov 13 11:49:22 <cutmasta> this organizes your imports
Nov 13 11:49:34 <Tomasu> odly enough, after I just "buid all" the error stopped comming up ::)
Nov 13 11:49:41 <marcreichelt> k
Nov 13 11:49:46 <marcreichelt> that is typical ;)
Nov 13 11:49:46 <Tomasu> and now it runs in the emulator. go figure.
Nov 13 11:49:52 <Tomasu> is it just me, or is eclipse annoying?
Nov 13 11:50:09 <marcreichelt> those things are normal
Nov 13 11:50:18 <Tomasu> shouldnt be though ;D
Nov 13 11:50:19 <marcreichelt> after a time it's just great
Nov 13 11:50:21 <marcreichelt> ;)
Nov 13 11:50:30 <marcreichelt> Eclipse I mean
Nov 13 11:50:33 <Tomasu> I hear that...
Nov 13 11:50:41 <marcreichelt> and if you know the tricks
Nov 13 11:50:43 <marcreichelt> ;)
Nov 13 11:50:56 <Tomasu> now that I have a 4core machine with 2GB ram, eclipse doesnt even feel slow anymore ;D
Nov 13 11:51:05 <Tomasu> I couldnt stand it on my old 2Ghz athlon
Nov 13 11:51:21 <marcreichelt> I have a 1,7 GHz Centrino
Nov 13 11:51:21 <davidw> jeez...sad, isn't it
Nov 13 11:51:27 <marcreichelt> and it does run very well
Nov 13 11:51:41 <Tomasu> marcreichelt: I'm very picky about how much lag there is in a gui
Nov 13 11:51:50 <Tomasu> of course java 6/1.6 REALLY helped
Nov 13 11:51:55 <marcreichelt> I can understand that
Nov 13 11:51:57 <marcreichelt> :)
Nov 13 11:51:58 <Tomasu> back in 1.4/1.5 things were worse.
Nov 13 11:52:01 <Tomasu> lots worse.
Nov 13 11:52:12 <marcreichelt> Java >= 5 is much cooler
Nov 13 11:52:25 <marcreichelt> especially things like generics
Nov 13 11:52:28 <Tomasu> 6 is darned fast.
Nov 13 11:52:36 <marcreichelt> it could be faster ;)
Nov 13 11:52:42 <marcreichelt> but yes - it is better
Nov 13 11:52:45 <Tomasu> and it only took them 10+ years ;D
Nov 13 11:53:01 <marcreichelt> Java is the programming language of the future
Nov 13 11:53:07 <Tomasu> well, it _was_ ;)
Nov 13 11:53:12 <marcreichelt> and that since 10 years ;)
Nov 13 11:53:15 <Tomasu> now its the language of "the cell phone" ;D
Nov 13 11:55:05 <Tomasu> now for some fun. mess with the XML, and Database stuff.
Nov 13 11:55:19 <Stephmw> your first task for today is to... break it!
Nov 13 11:55:21 <Stephmw> :D
Nov 13 11:55:39 <Tomasu> oooooh yeaaaahhhhh
Nov 13 11:55:57 <Tomasu> I think thats what the contest is for.
Nov 13 11:56:08 <Tomasu> get as many people beta testing the sdk as possible
Nov 13 11:56:29 * marcreichelt wonders if a music player could take part in the contest
Nov 13 11:56:39 <Tomasu> why not?
Nov 13 11:56:47 <Stephmw> I don't remember seeing any restrictions
Nov 13 11:57:08 <Tomasu> I think the restrictions so far are  "Must be written using the Android SDK"
Nov 13 11:57:46 <Tomasu> oh, conserning a music player, what kind of jni stuff are you aloud to use in android? anyone know?
Nov 13 11:58:01 <Tomasu> cause a pure java audio decoder might be a little cpu heavy
Nov 13 11:58:22 <davidw> if you *want* a music player, *write* a music player for pete's sakes
Nov 13 11:59:14 <Tomasu> and enter it for kicks ;D
Nov 13 11:59:40 <marcreichelt> Tomasu: Java is faster than most people know
Nov 13 11:59:51 <marcreichelt> the problem with Java is the folowing:
Nov 13 11:59:59 <marcreichelt> people don't care about runtime anymore
Nov 13 12:00:05 <Tomasu> java can be decent, its all in how you use it, but I'm pretty sure mp3/ogg decoding might be a little too hard on a cell's battery.
Nov 13 12:00:10 <marcreichelt> if you write Java code like C code it's really fast
Nov 13 12:00:30 <Tomasu> the closer to the hardware, the less power its going to draw if done right
Nov 13 12:00:37 <marcreichelt> yes, right
Nov 13 12:00:58 <marcreichelt> but again, Java is faster than many people suppose it to be
Nov 13 12:01:13 <marcreichelt> but you must code it correctly
Nov 13 12:01:18 <Tomasu> people are still stuck in the old days I agree
Nov 13 12:01:27 <marcreichelt> e.g. if you do something like String s = "Test";
Nov 13 12:01:54 <marcreichelt> and now you do a loop, adding "\nTest" to the String
Nov 13 12:02:02 <marcreichelt> (e.g. 10000 times)
Nov 13 12:02:11 <marcreichelt> than it does take a _long_ time
Nov 13 12:02:16 <marcreichelt> and heavy CPU usage
Nov 13 12:02:19 <Tomasu> well thats a silly example ;)
Nov 13 12:02:28 <marcreichelt> but if you use StringBuffer, it's much faster
Nov 13 12:02:29 <marcreichelt> yes
Nov 13 12:02:32 <marcreichelt> but it is :)
Nov 13 12:03:01 <Tomasu> from what I remember String is imutable isn't it? once its set, its set...
Nov 13 12:03:10 <marcreichelt> also if you write something like bar.foo().foo1().foo2().foo3() you don't care about runtime anymore
Nov 13 12:03:16 <Tomasu> hehehe
Nov 13 12:03:31 <Stephmw> marcreichelt: that's a bit broad
Nov 13 12:03:42 <Stephmw> marcreichelt: some uses of fluent interfaces is justsified
Nov 13 12:03:51 <marcreichelt> ?
Nov 13 12:04:06 <Stephmw> chained . operators can work pretty well if the API is well written
Nov 13 12:04:12 <Tomasu> this is odd, my new project is missing the R class file
Nov 13 12:04:30 <marcreichelt> yes Stephmw :)
Nov 13 12:04:48 <marcreichelt> but I mean the developer doesn't care about the runtime of each of these methods
Nov 13 12:04:53 <marcreichelt> he doesn't see it
Nov 13 12:05:15 * Stephmw shrugs
Nov 13 12:05:22 <Stephmw> profilers see everything :D
Nov 13 12:05:25 <Tomasu> oh weird, now its there
Nov 13 12:05:34 <Stephmw> Tomasu: isn't it automatically generated?
Nov 13 12:05:36 <marcreichelt> I think _that's_ why GUI code in normal Java applications is so odd slow
Nov 13 12:05:54 <Tomasu> Stephmw: it is it seems, but I would have assumed it'd have been generated initially, not on build.
Nov 13 12:06:02 <marcreichelt> so
Nov 13 12:06:03 <marcreichelt> now
Nov 13 12:06:08 <marcreichelt> the lecture here is over
Nov 13 12:06:12 <Tomasu> lol
Nov 13 12:06:19 <marcreichelt> I'm back after lunch
Nov 13 12:06:20 <marcreichelt> ;)
Nov 13 12:06:25 <Tomasu> lunch?
Nov 13 12:06:28 <Tomasu> its 5 am :o
Nov 13 12:06:31 <Tomasu> ;)
Nov 13 12:06:34 <marcreichelt> uhm
Nov 13 12:06:35 <marcreichelt> yes
Nov 13 12:06:40 <marcreichelt> in Germany it's 1 pm
Nov 13 12:06:41 <rwhitby> ~ugt
Nov 13 12:06:58 <marcreichelt> ;)
Nov 13 12:07:03 <marcreichelt> see you all
Nov 13 12:11:40 <telexicon> thats kind of like in python
Nov 13 12:11:46 <telexicon> in python strings are immutable
Nov 13 12:12:02 <telexicon> so you use a list.. loop over it and then rebuild it with ''.join(thelist)
Nov 13 12:13:27 <Tomasu> thats just annoying imo
Nov 13 12:13:45 <telexicon> well strings are immutable for a reason
Nov 13 12:13:51 <telexicon> performance reasons
Nov 13 12:14:07 <telexicon> so use a StringBuffer if you need to do a lot of stuff with the string
Nov 13 12:14:13 <Tomasu> except it makes the thing you do with strings the most, SLOW
Nov 13 12:14:26 <telexicon> what?
Nov 13 12:14:30 <Tomasu> why not make it String and StaticString ;D
Nov 13 12:14:33 <Tomasu> or ConstString
Nov 13 12:14:35 <telexicon> print them?
Nov 13 12:14:46 <telexicon> apply regex on them
Nov 13 12:14:58 <Tomasu> read, parse, create, write
Nov 13 12:15:03 <Tomasu> append, split
Nov 13 12:15:11 <Tomasu> generally just mangle the heck out of them
Nov 13 12:15:55 <telexicon> the only thing more expensive is append
Nov 13 12:16:43 <telexicon> split is cheaper because you can just give references to the different points in the string.. they cant be changed so it cant hurt
Nov 13 12:17:36 <[g2]> Tomasu: could you define SLOW on a 200MHz ARM for string operations ? I'm curious how you quantify SLOW. thx
Nov 13 12:17:51 <Tomasu> [g2]: slower than fast.
Nov 13 12:17:58 <Tomasu> ;)
Nov 13 12:18:08 <Tomasu> slower than needed, honestly.
Nov 13 12:18:12 <telexicon> string manipulating is pretty slow
Nov 13 12:18:28 <telexicon> too bad about java's marriage to XML
Nov 13 12:18:31 <ogunnaike> will android run on a HP 49g+ ?
Nov 13 12:18:33 <[g2]> telexicon: yeah due the the nature of the computations
Nov 13 12:19:16 <Tomasu> go figure, I happen to be working with xml in my little app here.
Nov 13 12:19:17 <Tomasu> heh
Nov 13 12:19:24 <[g2]> one could write c/c++ binding for python and get much better performace no ?
Nov 13 12:19:26 <telexicon> xml is slow
Nov 13 12:19:28 <Tomasu> not complex stuff though. just parsing.
Nov 13 12:19:32 <Tomasu> xml is hella slow
Nov 13 12:19:42 <telexicon> [g2], what do you mean?
Nov 13 12:20:09 <Tomasu> telexicon: thats all python user's excuse for python's slowness, "you can write it in C to make it faster!"
Nov 13 12:20:12 <telexicon> no python is pretty fast
Nov 13 12:20:32 <telexicon> for its class of language
Nov 13 12:20:33 <telexicon> its very fast
Nov 13 12:20:38 <Tomasu> perl is lots faster.
Nov 13 12:20:43 <telexicon> perl is not lots faster
Nov 13 12:20:44 <Tomasu> lots.
Nov 13 12:20:46 <ogunnaike> what does python have to offer in terms of gui's?
Nov 13 12:20:59 <Tomasu> ogunnaike: Qt, GTK and maybe others
Nov 13 12:21:02 <telexicon> ogunnaike, PyGTK, PyQT, WxPython
Nov 13 12:21:11 <telexicon> i think thers pycocoa and
Nov 13 12:21:18 <telexicon> yea
Nov 13 12:21:30 <telexicon> Tomasu, thats not a slow operation though
Nov 13 12:21:34 <Tomasu> telexicon: try portage against apt some time, one is in python, the other is in perl, one is VERY slow, even after all of the C bindings, and the other is fast.
Nov 13 12:21:43 <ogunnaike> oh nice.. so you gots to ports those libs to android too yeah?
Nov 13 12:21:50 <telexicon> Tomasu, first of all... .join() is in C
Nov 13 12:22:02 <Tomasu> ogunnaike: youd use the android gui for android
Nov 13 12:22:04 <telexicon> Tomasu, gee.. portage is slow because it compiles everything
Nov 13 12:22:15 <Tomasu> telexicon: no, I mean just the package database handling
Nov 13 12:22:18 <telexicon> Tomasu, and even if thats not what you are talking about (because that would be silly)
Nov 13 12:22:20 <ogunnaike> oh nice.. the python android gui?
Nov 13 12:22:25 <telexicon> Tomasu, then it is probably due to a poor design
Nov 13 12:22:32 <Tomasu> ogunnaike: android is all hava
Nov 13 12:22:34 <Tomasu> *java
Nov 13 12:22:42 <ogunnaike> yeah, no shit
Nov 13 12:22:55 <Tomasu> then why would you have python questions?
Nov 13 12:22:57 <telexicon> Tomasu, and apt-get is written in C
Nov 13 12:23:05 <Tomasu> telexicon: a lot of perl as well.
Nov 13 12:23:10 <ogunnaike> i dont actually. i gots scheme questions
Nov 13 12:23:14 <CM> Hmm.. They don't have any kind of bug reporting system or am I blind?
Nov 13 12:23:18 <telexicon> Tomasu, /usr/bin/apt-get is an elf binary
Nov 13 12:23:23 <[g2]> telexicon: I was trying to understand Tomasu's take on performance, imho he seems more like venting than having dug into the issues
Nov 13 12:23:26 <Tomasu> telexicon: yet it calls all sorts of perl code ;)
Nov 13 12:23:39 <Tomasu> ok, fine, I just dont like python ;D
Nov 13 12:23:45 <Tomasu> lets leave it at that :P
Nov 13 12:23:47 <telexicon> thats too bad
Nov 13 12:23:56 <Tomasu> not really.
Nov 13 12:23:57 <ogunnaike> this would be really nice if it made it to android http://sisc-scheme.org/
Nov 13 12:24:02 <Tomasu> cant stand the syntax.
Nov 13 12:24:02 <telexicon> its a very well designed language
Nov 13 12:24:12 <Tomasu> and the slowness that comes with its hash type.
Nov 13 12:24:13 <telexicon> aww thats too bad
Nov 13 12:24:22 * iwkse do not like python too
Nov 13 12:24:30 <telexicon> i know if/else, for loops and classes are tricky
Nov 13 12:24:56 <telexicon> well theres the response to that
Nov 13 12:25:11 <Tomasu> tricky? as a C++ programmer, hardly. :P
Nov 13 12:25:14 <telexicon> Tomasu, you miss having brackets?
Nov 13 12:25:26 <Tomasu> telexicon: I hate that white space is treated specially.
Nov 13 12:25:32 <telexicon> ah right
Nov 13 12:25:34 <telexicon> ill make you a deal
Nov 13 12:25:37 <Tomasu> its not special, should never be special
Nov 13 12:25:37 <telexicon> you can type it like this then
Nov 13 12:25:52 <ogunnaike> python seems to be lacking parentheses
Nov 13 12:25:58 <Tomasu> try having that pyhon code of yours munged, and the spaces changed.
Nov 13 12:26:04 <Tomasu> see if it still runs the same ;)
Nov 13 12:26:43 <Tomasu> if somehow, the white space is messed up, its almost impossible to change it back without having been the one writing it.
Nov 13 12:27:07 <telexicon> Tomasu, you can type your stuff like this if it will make you feel beteter
Nov 13 12:27:08 <telexicon> http://android.pastebin.com/d24c780a6
Nov 13 12:27:22 <Tomasu> and make it look uglier?
Nov 13 12:27:27 <Tomasu> thanks, but no thanks :)
Nov 13 12:27:32 <telexicon> well you get your parenthesis back
Nov 13 12:27:38 <telexicon> why would the spaces change?
Nov 13 12:27:43 <Tomasu> no, you jsut get a bunch of stupid comments.
Nov 13 12:27:50 <Tomasu> you wouldnt, but something might.
Nov 13 12:27:54 <Tomasu> stuff happens.
Nov 13 12:27:58 <Tomasu> code gets messed up.
Nov 13 12:28:00 <telexicon> thats what backups are for
Nov 13 12:28:01 <ogunnaike> eeeww.. yeah thats butt ugly
Nov 13 12:28:04 <telexicon> and/or source control
Nov 13 12:28:14 <Tomasu> again, "stuff" happens.
Nov 13 12:28:24 <telexicon> then you have bigger problems
Nov 13 12:28:34 <telexicon> ive used python for a while.. that has _never_ been an issue
Nov 13 12:28:44 <Tomasu> yet :)
Nov 13 12:28:53 <telexicon> and the map is pretty fast
Nov 13 12:28:58 <Tomasu> I've seen some C code that lost its formatting, and it was still compilable.
Nov 13 12:29:02 <ogunnaike> what about jython? have you used that?
Nov 13 12:29:03 <telexicon> they optimize it a lot because its used for everything
Nov 13 12:29:15 <telexicon> no because jython doesnt have the same semantics
Nov 13 12:29:24 <telexicon> they tried.. but its not quite right
Nov 13 12:29:27 <ogunnaike> huh?
Nov 13 12:29:40 <Tomasu> because its used for everything, is why its slow, its even used for the array type ::)
Nov 13 12:29:56 <Tomasu> have dedicated type for its specific use.
Nov 13 12:30:05 <Tomasu> then you can optimize the crap out of them.
Nov 13 12:30:15 <telexicon> which array type?
Nov 13 12:30:27 <telexicon> its not used for the list
Nov 13 12:30:54 <ogunnaike> whatd you mean by that semantics comment?
Nov 13 12:30:58 <telexicon> anyways they needed some data structure for handling key, value pairs
Nov 13 12:30:59 <drWyrM> this channel should be called #pythonXjavaXperlXc++. Cant you people try to stay on topic?
Nov 13 12:31:11 <ogunnaike> you mean java as opposed to c base?
Nov 13 12:31:11 <telexicon> drWyrM, well nobody is talking about anything else
Nov 13 12:31:26 <telexicon> ogunnaike, the semantics of jython are different than python
Nov 13 12:31:29 <Tomasu> drWyrM: once someone says something about android, we'll talk about it.
Nov 13 12:31:35 <telexicon> ogunnaike, memory management gets handled differently
Nov 13 12:31:42 <telexicon> ogunnaike, you have to specify types sometimes.. thats a big one
Nov 13 12:32:01 <telexicon> theres no multiple inheritence
Nov 13 12:32:02 <Tomasu> but I hate these stupid language wars.
Nov 13 12:32:11 <Tomasu> noone ever wins, and it just gets me all riled up.
Nov 13 12:32:11 <ogunnaike> i think android definitely needs a scripting language like scheme (see sisc-scheme.org)
Nov 13 12:32:14 <Tomasu> so pointless.
Nov 13 12:32:37 <telexicon> ogunnaike, scheme would be interesting but not enough target audience
Nov 13 12:32:57 <telexicon> well i have to also trust people who are smarter than me
Nov 13 12:32:59 <Tomasu> so what is everyone working on for android?
Nov 13 12:33:13 <javamaniac> hello people
Nov 13 12:33:19 <telexicon> it appears google loves python so i have to trust that those smart people know what they are doing :)
Nov 13 12:33:50 <Tomasu> its just easier for n00bs ;)
Nov 13 12:33:54 <ogunnaike> you dont think google devs use scheme?
Nov 13 12:34:01 <telexicon> i didnt say they didnt
Nov 13 12:34:03 <javamaniac> I think it's possible to make python bindings around the java api
Nov 13 12:34:06 <Tomasu> google keeps switching languages.
Nov 13 12:34:09 <javamaniac> It must be easy
Nov 13 12:34:21 <Tomasu> pretty much whatever is in fad.
Nov 13 12:34:24 <ogunnaike> i'm guessing google gots a love affair w/ scheme also
Nov 13 12:34:24 <telexicon> mixing native code and java bytecode?
Nov 13 12:34:33 <javamaniac> or around the lower level api , using swig
Nov 13 12:34:45 <telexicon> ogunnaike, right.. because google hired the person who created scheme
Nov 13 12:34:47 <ogunnaike> javamaniac: yeah jython
Nov 13 12:34:52 <ogunnaike> i'd be happy w/ jython
Nov 13 12:34:58 <telexicon> javamaniac, its been done.. but the semantics are different
Nov 13 12:35:00 <telexicon> quite different
Nov 13 12:35:25 <javamaniac> well, that's the price we must pay to use python...
Nov 13 12:35:27 <telexicon> you have to change a bunch of stuff to port from CPython to Jython
Nov 13 12:35:36 <telexicon> or they could just package a python interpreter
Nov 13 12:36:02 <ogunnaike> and port the gui libs as well or use the java gui?
Nov 13 12:36:19 <telexicon> make bindings for the framework
Nov 13 12:36:42 <javamaniac> I mean, if we have access to the lowel level api(the surface manager, sqlite, etc) we can use swig(http://www.swig.org/) to make those bindings
Nov 13 12:36:55 <javamaniac> but it's not possible atm :(
Nov 13 12:37:20 <telexicon> id rather it was supported by google.. or you wont find it on real phones and it will only be a toy
Nov 13 12:38:54 <javamaniac> bbl
Nov 13 12:40:07 <ogunnaike> so anyone know if the hp 49G+ would run android?
Nov 13 12:40:15 <telexicon> trolls!? :(
Nov 13 12:40:22 <ogunnaike> its got a arm processor
Nov 13 12:40:24 <telexicon> ogunnaike, im not sure
Nov 13 12:40:34 <telexicon> try putting it on there and see what happens
Nov 13 12:41:08 <ogunnaike> good idea
Nov 13 12:41:21 <ogunnaike> i just gotta find my usb cable for it
Nov 13 12:42:05 <ogunnaike> i should be able to just put the sdk on the stack and press enter right?
Nov 13 12:44:11 <telexicon> Tomasu, hmm, i didnt mean to make you uncomfortable
Nov 13 12:44:18 <telexicon> i forget other people dont like arguing
Nov 13 12:44:29 <Tomasu> telexicon: heh, well I love arguing, it just doesn't like me ;D
Nov 13 12:45:21 <bengl> anyone know if there has been any work done on a console app for android?
Nov 13 12:45:25 <ogunnaike> oh great.. its flat
Nov 13 12:45:40 <ogunnaike> a what? serious?
Nov 13 12:46:07 <ogunnaike> you mean like command line stuff?
Nov 13 12:46:12 <bengl> yep
Nov 13 12:46:45 <bengl> it would be incredibly useful
Nov 13 12:47:28 <ogunnaike> do you mean like a xterm type app?
Nov 13 12:47:49 <ogunnaike> so you can logon to your desktop or something? cos that would be cool
Nov 13 12:49:21 <ogunnaike> brb i gotta find some batteries for my calculator
Nov 13 12:49:24 <Tomasu> ooh, ssh for it would be cool.
Nov 13 12:50:40 <bengl> sure, xterm, whatever, just any console emulator, for, you know, writing console apps, like ssh, etc.
Nov 13 12:51:11 <bengl> i guess that means no one's started on that yet so i should get crackin
Nov 13 12:51:41 <CM> There is a basic console already
Nov 13 12:51:51 <bengl> yeah? inside the emulator?
Nov 13 12:51:55 <BabelO> hi, just quick question... is this Dalvik virtual machine available for download ?
Nov 13 12:51:57 <CM> http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/13/android-under-the-hood
Nov 13 12:54:17 <bengl> but i can't get that inside the emulator, right?
Nov 13 12:54:27 <BabelO> ok got the answer yesturday at 9:00 pm
Nov 13 12:54:55 <bengl> 'cause that's what i want
Nov 13 12:55:14 <CM> bengl: Hmm.. Guess not. Make one and you'll be my hero too ;)
Nov 13 12:57:42 <ogunnaike> yep, that and ssh
Nov 13 12:58:59 <bengl> alright, i guess that's my project for the week
Nov 13 12:59:32 * bengl is now officially bent on making a console working within android
Nov 13 13:00:27 <bengl> hopefully i can somehow give the shell you get from "emulator -console"
Nov 13 13:01:40 <bengl> which is located at /system/bin/sh
Nov 13 13:01:55 <elbastardo> i know android devs are testing android already , are they using GSM phones ? or a diff ...
Nov 13 13:02:09 <elbastardo> i mean to make sure it works in the real world
Nov 13 13:02:11 <bengl> i've got too much crap to do today, i'll work on it tonight
Nov 13 13:02:40 <bengl> elbastardo: for sure gsm, since that's what the api indicates
Nov 13 13:02:44 <ogunnaike> bengl: are you taking feature requests?
Nov 13 13:02:49 <elbastardo> bengl: cool , thank you
Nov 13 13:03:19 <elbastardo> i hope i am not trolling , but is iPhone peeing in their pants :)
Nov 13 13:03:32 <bengl> ogunnaike: sure, send to bengl at canadaka dot net
Nov 13 13:04:28 <ogunnaike> i just want screen like features thats all
Nov 13 13:04:35 <ogunnaike> thats probably too much to ask
Nov 13 13:05:02 <davidw> elbastardo, well... maybe, but they're also selling like hotcakes
Nov 13 13:05:34 <bengl> what do you mean?
Nov 13 13:05:40 <elbastardo> davidw: true , but i like the diff between "Exclusive" and open source and available for all I hope
Nov 13 13:05:46 <ogunnaike> mmm.. hotcakes...
Nov 13 13:06:07 <davidw> elbastardo, me too, but apple has always seemed to be able to carve out their own niche
Nov 13 13:06:40 <elbastardo> davidw: till now they never had a rea competition , microsoft was doing hteir own thing and no open source
Nov 13 13:06:48 <davidw> eh?
Nov 13 13:06:57 <davidw> you need to look further back in history
Nov 13 13:06:58 <ogunnaike> you know the software called screen?
Nov 13 13:07:04 <elbastardo> i know for sure we wont see any adds bashing android on the teli
Nov 13 13:07:50 <bengl> no i don't (now googling..)
Nov 13 13:08:11 <ogunnaike> let me quote the pkg-descr ``screen is a full-screen window manager that multiplexes a physical terminal between processes (typically interactive shells)''
Nov 13 13:08:41 <ogunnaike> http://www.gnu.org/software/screen/
Nov 13 13:09:01 <Tomasu> screen is indeed cool
Nov 13 13:09:15 <ogunnaike> << big fan of screen
Nov 13 13:09:17 <Tomasu> lets you put apps into the background
Nov 13 13:09:23 <Tomasu> and have them still there
Nov 13 13:09:30 <ogunnaike> detach/reattach
Nov 13 13:09:34 <ogunnaike> yeah
Nov 13 13:09:41 <Tomasu> but Im a bigger fan of guis, so I dont use screen that often...
Nov 13 13:09:49 <Tomasu> last time I used screen was when I was still using gentoo.
Nov 13 13:09:57 <Tomasu> kinda had to run emerge's in screen
Nov 13 13:10:02 <ogunnaike> be interested to see how you can logon to a desktop w/ a gui
Nov 13 13:10:04 <Tomasu> incase ssh died
Nov 13 13:10:13 <Tomasu> ogunnaike: NX
Nov 13 13:10:20 <bengl> well my priority i think is just to get SOMETHING going, which i don't think will take much effort anyway
Nov 13 13:10:28 <ogunnaike> let me google that
Nov 13 13:11:22 <ogunnaike> interesting..
Nov 13 13:11:38 <ogunnaike> yeah bengl good luck w/ that
Nov 13 13:11:48 <ogunnaike> let us know when you get something working
Nov 13 13:12:03 <Tomasu> whats he doing?
Nov 13 13:12:08 <bengl> yeah, i'm sure somebody will have it before me though, so i encourage everyone else to go at it too
Nov 13 13:12:13 <ogunnaike> he's making a terminal app
Nov 13 13:15:01 <CM> Tomasu: irssi + screen is a great irc combination
Nov 13 13:15:19 <ogunnaike> << concurs
Nov 13 13:15:30 <Tomasu> I dont like irssi ;)
Nov 13 13:15:36 <Tomasu> not a fan of console irc clients
Nov 13 13:15:42 <Tomasu> I like my konversation
Nov 13 13:15:46 <CM> And not python either, man you're negative.. ;)
Nov 13 13:15:53 <CM> Yikes, and kde on top :P
Nov 13 13:15:59 <ogunnaike> lol
Nov 13 13:18:09 <rwhitby> I finally got around to writing a perl script to do the equivalent of "ls -lR" on the Android emulator.
Nov 13 13:18:13 <rwhitby> Results are in http://pastebin.ca/771988
Nov 13 13:19:16 <rwhitby> The script is at http://pastebin.ca/771989
Nov 13 13:19:42 <ogunnaike> i wonder if a clippy application is worthy of submission for the adc
Nov 13 13:21:43 <ogunnaike> that code is glorious! you gotta love perl
Nov 13 13:22:06 * CM will have nightmares
Nov 13 13:22:22 <cutmasta> nice regexps :)
Nov 13 13:22:39 * rwhitby is not afraid to show horrible code
Nov 13 13:23:11 <ogunnaike> can you imagine what this would look like in python
Nov 13 13:23:15 <rwhitby> I did get to learn how to use the Eclipse Perl plugin as a useful side-effect.
Nov 13 13:23:37 <CM> rwhitby: Hehe.. It's not horrible, but as cutmasta said, scary regexps. You've earned a http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/regular_expressions.png
Nov 13 13:23:55 <rwhitby> I'd be happy for someone to post a python equivalent so I can finally learn to do something with python too ...
Nov 13 13:24:14 <telexicon> rwhitby, ok ill do it
Nov 13 13:24:19 <telexicon> but you'll have to help me understand this
Nov 13 13:24:19 <ogunnaike> lol
Nov 13 13:24:34 <rwhitby> CM: nice
Nov 13 13:24:43 <Tomasu> rwhitby: Im not sure all of that is needed :o
Nov 13 13:24:46 <cutmasta> CM, hehe
Nov 13 13:24:59 <rwhitby> Tomasu: I'm quite sure it isn't, but it's almost midnight here ...
Nov 13 13:25:10 <Tomasu> if(-f $path) { print file: $path; }
Nov 13 13:25:34 <rwhitby> Tomasu: $path does not exist on the host running the script
Nov 13 13:25:34 <Tomasu> opendir, readdir, closedir as well
Nov 13 13:25:49 <Tomasu> ooh
Nov 13 13:25:51 <Tomasu> I see
Nov 13 13:25:54 <Tomasu> adb shell
Nov 13 13:25:54 <rwhitby> remember, this is parsing the output of "adb shell ls"
Nov 13 13:25:55 <Tomasu> hrm
Nov 13 13:26:03 <Tomasu> sory..
Nov 13 13:26:11 <Tomasu> yeah, ok, that could be fun
Nov 13 13:26:23 <Tomasu> but I think the regexs might be able to be simplified..
Nov 13 13:26:45 <rwhitby> I'm sure they can, they were built up by trial and error until there were no more unmatched lines.
Nov 13 13:26:46 <Tomasu> nice hack though
Nov 13 13:26:49 <jonbaer> anyone know how to clear out the cache on the emulator?
Nov 13 13:26:50 <Tomasu> lol
Nov 13 13:27:23 <cutmasta> Tomasu, regexp can always be optimized :)
Nov 13 13:27:27 <jeddy3> haha, xkcd xD
Nov 13 13:27:39 <rwhitby> I'll be keeping all this stuff in a blog entry at http://www.rwhitby.net/blog/android/android-internals.html
Nov 13 13:27:42 <cutmasta> to be unreadable and no more understandable
Nov 13 13:28:24 <jonbaer> rwhitby thanks
Nov 13 13:29:52 <rwhitby> I had to short circuit /sys cause my script couldn't handle the recursion that you find in there ...
Nov 13 13:30:31 <rwhitby> The chomp is probably not needed either.
Nov 13 13:31:01 <telexicon> teeheehee
Nov 13 13:31:01 <rwhitby> I should stop looking at it, I'll want to clean it up, and therein lies madness, since it's a once-off hack.
Nov 13 13:31:11 <telexicon> ill just make a trick
Nov 13 13:31:39 <rwhitby> I am happy that I was able to run it from inside Eclipse on windows.
Nov 13 13:32:02 <meus> is there a PDF doc of the entire sdk docs up somewhere?
Nov 13 13:32:25 <rwhitby> meus: not that I've found.  I used httrack to offline the whole site.
Nov 13 13:32:54 <meus> ok, thanks
Nov 13 13:32:56 <rwhitby> I know it's impolite to do so, but it's google - I figure they have the bandwidth available :-)
Nov 13 13:33:30 <meus> hehe :)
Nov 13 13:33:36 <cutmasta> think so too, on release date i got always 700k
Nov 13 13:33:45 <J_P> hi all
Nov 13 13:34:01 <rwhitby> hi J_P
Nov 13 13:34:13 <J_P> I have a very important question.
Nov 13 13:34:52 <bengl> rwhitby: you played with the api at all or just been playing around with the console, etc.?
Nov 13 13:35:22 <rwhitby> bengl: I compile hello android and lunar lander, and played with the debug and instrumentation in Eclipse.
Nov 13 13:35:28 <J_P> I'm python, C, C++, gtk/qt/, ruby, perl, lua developer. How I can development for android ?
Nov 13 13:35:44 <davidw> J_P, learn Java
Nov 13 13:35:55 <rwhitby> I'm not a Java programmer (yet).  I am a 20yr experienced C/C++/Perl/... programmer.
Nov 13 13:35:57 <davidw> J_P, or wait until something comes out
Nov 13 13:36:06 <davidw> or, even better, help other things come out
Nov 13 13:36:18 <bengl> bah, that pretty much makes you a java programmer almost by default
Nov 13 13:36:29 <J_P> davidw: learn java. This is not a good answer. Becouse, thing: ONLY java is posible. This is a very very very bad
Nov 13 13:36:42 <rwhitby> J_P: I just ran this perl script against the Android platform: http://pastebin.ca/771989 ;-)
Nov 13 13:36:42 <davidw> oh no, the sky is falling
Nov 13 13:37:05 <davidw> J_P, well, I'm porting Hecl to Android, if you want to help out, that would be great
Nov 13 13:37:11 <rwhitby> bengl: yeah, in my mind java programming is just knowing where to find things in the API
Nov 13 13:37:13 <davidw> then you'll have something that's not Java
Nov 13 13:37:22 <bengl> that's pretty much it
Nov 13 13:37:28 <d03boy> java is easy peasy
Nov 13 13:38:13 <J_P> davidw: what is Hecl ?
Nov 13 13:38:22 <davidw> www.hecl.org
Nov 13 13:38:26 <davidw> lunch time...be back later
Nov 13 13:38:30 <J_P> ok.. will see
Nov 13 13:38:57 <bengl> i think a terminal should be easy enough, if you can get to the filesystem from the VM
Nov 13 13:39:11 <rwhitby> I expect that the choice of Java was not made simply on technical language execution efficiency grounds.  There are many non-technical constraints that go into making a successful new phone platform in the market, not least of which is security.
Nov 13 13:39:34 <Tomasu> and all of the existing java phone developers
Nov 13 13:39:57 <CM> Also, google is using a lot of java internally
Nov 13 13:40:08 <rwhitby> Tomasu: yeah, but I think all the phone developers would use a new language that Google told them to use whatever it was.
Nov 13 13:40:34 <bengl> Tomasu: it should be noted that most java phone developers use J2ME, which android is not (afaik)
Nov 13 13:40:37 <J_P> davidw: Python is much more high level than hecl
Nov 13 13:41:07 <robtaylor> davidw: groovy!
Nov 13 13:41:24 <robtaylor> (umm, as in the language)
Nov 13 13:41:27 <rwhitby> It's the market acceptance of unsigned uncertified third party apps which is the driving force here.  Google needs to not only make the platform secure, but also be *seen* (and understood by executives, not technical people) to have a secure platform.  In executive minds, that equates to Java sandboxes, cause they've been trained to think that way by Sun.
Nov 13 13:41:39 <davidw> J_P, eh?
Nov 13 13:41:56 <J_P> davidw: yes
Nov 13 13:42:52 <Stephmw> rwhitby: good points
Nov 13 13:43:09 <robtaylor> rwhitby: tbh, it is easier securing when you can sandbox..
Nov 13 13:43:18 <rwhitby> You say "You can write apps in C" to a handset manufacturer executive, and they will immediately think of the liability suits when some evil hacker uses C to crack their shiny new phone and wreak havoc.  Say "Java" to them, and they will no longer worry about it, irrespective of the technical points.
Nov 13 13:43:27 <robtaylor> rwhitby: esp if you're allowing users to install arbitary code
Nov 13 13:43:47 <robtaylor> rwhitby: thats not really trye
Nov 13 13:43:49 <robtaylor> *true
Nov 13 13:44:05 <robtaylor> rwhitby: its more that*right now* symbian causes a huge support headache
Nov 13 13:44:07 <rwhitby> robtaylor: technically it's not true, but from an executive viewpoint it is true.
Nov 13 13:44:22 <bengl> something to consider: will all phones with Android actually allow user hacking? it may not be the case
Nov 13 13:44:27 <rwhitby> oh, yeah, there is the symbian signing thing too driving it.
Nov 13 13:44:39 <rwhitby> bengl: you can bet it will not be the case.
Nov 13 13:44:47 <J_P> Limiting to *only* 1 language for developmento is not a google slogan
Nov 13 13:44:58 <bengl> great, where do i place my bet?
Nov 13 13:45:06 <J_P> this appears a marketing.. bussiness
Nov 13 13:45:12 <rwhitby> Google will have the ability to call C++ from JNI I expect.  They just haven't released it yet.
Nov 13 13:45:19 <bengl> also, i wonder how much extra i'd have to pay for some jackassed "developer" edition phone
Nov 13 13:45:20 <robtaylor> J_P: hey, pypy has a jvm backend now, you know
Nov 13 13:45:43 <robtaylor> pypy could really come into its own on a java based platform like this
Nov 13 13:46:03 <J_P> robtaylor: i'm not sure is this is stable..
Nov 13 13:46:28 <bengl> anyone thought of implementing Rhino?
Nov 13 13:46:33 <robtaylor> J_P: yeah, it'll need some developer cycles to get it production-stable
Nov 13 13:46:50 <robtaylor> J_P: but hey, thats where FLOSS helps ;)
Nov 13 13:47:30 <J_P> robtaylor: sorry, FLOSS ?
Nov 13 13:47:41 <Tomasu> FreeLibreOpenSourceSoftware ?
Nov 13 13:47:49 <ScaredyCat> lol
Nov 13 13:47:49 <Tomasu> something like that
Nov 13 13:47:49 <J_P> robtaylor: give me a url for pypy on java system/mobiles..
Nov 13 13:47:52 <ScaredyCat> FOSS
Nov 13 13:48:02 <J_P> ahh ok FOSS
Nov 13 13:48:05 <J_P> :-)
Nov 13 13:48:12 <Tomasu> FLOSS is used as well
Nov 13 13:48:15 <robtaylor> J_P: Free and Libre
Nov 13 13:48:20 <Tomasu> theres a difference
Nov 13 13:48:29 <J_P> humm
Nov 13 13:48:36 <J_P> ok
Nov 13 13:48:37 <ScaredyCat> Free means more than one thing
Nov 13 13:48:43 <robtaylor> J_P: http://www.mail-archive.com/pypy-dev@codespeak.net/msg02902.html
Nov 13 13:48:54 <ScaredyCat> thee is no diffeence between Free and Libre
Nov 13 13:48:55 <rwhitby> <rwhitby> jasonchen: would it be possible to write some JNI code which talks to gnueabi-gcc C/C++ code which you upload via adb push?
Nov 13 13:49:01 <rwhitby> <jasonchen> rwhitby: i'm not sure that it's possible today, but enabling app devs to build apps that call out to their own native code is something we're thinking about
Nov 13 13:49:29 <rwhitby> That's where a Google person said that C++ with JNI is being thought about.
Nov 13 13:49:43 <robtaylor> J_P: still experimental as of October though
Nov 13 13:50:03 <davidw> so, how is python "higher level" than Hecl?
Nov 13 13:50:06 <telexicon> ok done
Nov 13 13:50:11 <telexicon> and no regex :)
Nov 13 13:50:19 <rwhitby> telexicon: pastebin it please
Nov 13 13:50:28 <telexicon> er one sec
Nov 13 13:50:34 <telexicon> :)
Nov 13 13:50:46 <rwhitby> not tested yet?
Nov 13 13:50:51 <telexicon> no
Nov 13 13:50:52 * Stephmw hands the dead-horse-flogging whip to davidw and ScaredyCat 
Nov 13 13:51:01 <telexicon> but it mostly works
Nov 13 13:51:11 <Tomasu> <rwhitby> That's where a Google person said that C++ with JNI is being thought about. <-- woot
Nov 13 13:51:19 <Tomasu> options are nice.
Nov 13 13:51:54 <rwhitby> I expect they could arrange that JNI stuff so that it didn't break the security.  They would not be C/C++ apps, so the executives stay happy.
Nov 13 13:52:03 <Tomasu> right
Nov 13 13:52:13 <davidw> Stephmw, ?
Nov 13 13:52:26 <ScaredyCat> eh ?
Nov 13 13:52:41 * ScaredyCat pokes Stephmw with a stick
Nov 13 13:52:48 <J_P> davidw: write one example in hecl and same in python and see diference
Nov 13 13:53:02 <rwhitby> telexicon: if it's not tested, then it's not done :-)
Nov 13 13:53:13 <rwhitby> or are you a java programmer ;-)
Nov 13 13:53:14 <telexicon> rwhitby, how very wise :)
Nov 13 13:53:40 <davidw> J_P, let's borrow one from Tcl: set sk [socket www.google.com 80] - that seems pretty hight level to me.
Nov 13 13:54:13 <Stephmw> davidw, ScaredyCat: language discussions and Free/Libra discussion....
Nov 13 13:55:04 <davidw> or here's a j2me app in Hecl: set form [lcdui.form -title "Hello World"] ; $form append "hello world"; $form setcurrent
Nov 13 13:55:24 <J_P> robtaylor: and jython ?
Nov 13 13:55:25 <ScaredyCat> it's only non native English speakers that seem to have problems with it Stephmw...
Nov 13 13:55:31 * ScaredyCat shuts up
Nov 13 13:55:41 <Tomasu> davidw: reminds me of tcl
Nov 13 13:55:42 <Stephmw> ScaredyCat: :)
Nov 13 13:55:50 * rwhitby just turned 40. ugh.
Nov 13 13:55:54 <davidw> Tomasu, yes, it's similar
Nov 13 13:55:56 <J_P> davidw: to you. But try show same example for 20 person and see the result.
Nov 13 13:56:09 <Tomasu> davidw: the [... -foo] stuff is too similar ;)
Nov 13 13:56:16 <davidw> J_P, well let's see a python example with 40 oranges
Nov 13 13:57:57 <davidw> Tomasu, it works really well, actually, because for some areas, a (blah, blah blah blah blah) syntax, is much more prone to *requiring* all those parameters be passed, whereas in the Tcl style, you only set the ones you need.  This is in keeping with the principal of making easy things easy, but not precluding difficult things
Nov 13 13:58:18 <Tomasu> ja
Nov 13 13:58:29 <Tomasu> I used to love tcl...
Nov 13 13:58:31 <telexicon> here it is in python: http://android.pastebin.com/m6d20062d
Nov 13 13:58:46 <Stephmw> rwhitby: well done!
Nov 13 13:58:55 <Stephmw> rwhitby: I'm only 10 years behind :D
Nov 13 13:59:23 <telexicon> heres the output it makes: http://android.pastebin.com/d735e795e
Nov 13 13:59:52 <nbd> can't somebody make a variant of python without the 'whitespace matters' part? :)
Nov 13 14:00:05 <davidw> nbd, ruby is a little bit more pleasing for some people
Nov 13 14:00:09 <rwhitby> telexicon: nice, thx.
Nov 13 14:00:09 <J_P> davidw: uhh ?
Nov 13 14:00:16 <Stephmw> nbd: naaa, pythong uses whitespace for scope remember
Nov 13 14:00:19 <Stephmw> *python
Nov 13 14:00:30 <nbd> Stephmw: and that's what i dislike about it
Nov 13 14:00:31 <telexicon> nbd, everybody indents anyways.. whats the problem?
Nov 13 14:00:41 <davidw> whitespace really isn't ever a problem in Python
Nov 13 14:00:42 <rwhitby> isn't pythong that language with a minimal back-end ?
Nov 13 14:00:44 <nbd> telexicon: think editors that mix spaces with tabs :P
Nov 13 14:00:50 <davidw> rwhitby +1
Nov 13 14:01:00 <telexicon> nbd, then dont do it
Nov 13 14:01:06 <davidw> nbd, and yet it never really seems to happen in practice
Nov 13 14:01:16 <nbd> i've seen people do it by accident
Nov 13 14:01:17 <davidw> the only place where, IMO, that's a problem for python is templates
Nov 13 14:01:22 <nbd> and then spending ours debugging their app
Nov 13 14:01:32 <nbd> s/ours/hours/
Nov 13 14:02:19 <telexicon> ive seen hours where people realize that their if(something) DO_MACRO; didnt quite work how they expected either
Nov 13 14:02:29 <rwhitby> night all
Nov 13 14:02:33 <telexicon> well, ok you get what i mean
Nov 13 14:02:47 <telexicon> times when people spend hours then realize
Nov 13 14:03:28 <telexicon> therefore, I wish somebody would make a C without macros
Nov 13 14:03:41 <davidw> Tomasu, the problems with Tcl are not technical, but the fact that the developers lost the plot in about 2000 in terms of a lot of things
Nov 13 14:03:49 <nbd> heh, that would make it unusable
Nov 13 14:04:16 <davidw> *especially* marketing the language
Nov 13 14:04:19 <Tomasu> davidw: oh, I don't dislike tcl because of tcl, just because of one app I was using it for.. ever used eggdrop? they managed to horribly break tcl...
Nov 13 14:04:32 <telexicon> nbd, well look at the productivity gains in python... compare it to the same thing in perl
Nov 13 14:04:43 <telexicon> nbd, i spent a lot of time trying to figure out what that perl script was doing
Nov 13 14:04:44 <Tomasu> ::)
Nov 13 14:04:57 <Tomasu> there are other ways to do the same thing in perl.
Nov 13 14:04:58 <nbd> telexicon: i'm much more productive in perl than in python
Nov 13 14:05:04 <Tomasu> he could have used the array approch you did
Nov 13 14:05:06 <davidw> Tomasu, well... what do you expect from script kiddie ware;-)
Nov 13 14:05:12 <Tomasu> davidw: no kidding.
Nov 13 14:05:17 <telexicon> nbd, thats not what i meant
Nov 13 14:05:40 <davidw> anyway, my point was only that Hecl isn't somehow "lower level" than Python... that's the crack talking
Nov 13 14:05:52 <Tomasu> heh
Nov 13 14:05:53 <Stephmw> telexicon: awww - you've not lived in pain until you've seen Java with preprocessing
Nov 13 14:06:01 <nbd> telexicon: well, comparing perl to python doesn't make a point about python any better
Nov 13 14:06:11 <telexicon> that its more readable?
Nov 13 14:06:19 <telexicon> even if they didnt use regex
Nov 13 14:06:35 <telexicon> its still more readable.. none of the my @_#
Nov 13 14:06:52 <nbd> you can write readable perl, just as you can write readable python
Nov 13 14:07:05 <nbd> but don't claim that you can't write unreadable python
Nov 13 14:07:14 <telexicon> you have to go out of your way to do it
Nov 13 14:07:24 <telexicon> you have to try to write unreadable python
Nov 13 14:07:25 <davidw> I'm sure you could.   Let's just say that on average, Python is a bit cleaner than Perl
Nov 13 14:07:31 <nbd> iirc the whitespace indentation of python doesn't care if the indentation goes forwards or backwards
Nov 13 14:07:42 <nbd> that can create some nice spaghetti code
Nov 13 14:07:42 <davidw> also because of the different communities
Nov 13 14:08:02 <nbd> the problem is not in the language itself
Nov 13 14:08:04 <Tomasu> hmm, the docs mention TabHost is the parent for tabs, yet eclipse says its depreciated
Nov 13 14:08:05 <CM> telexicon: Neat script :)
Nov 13 14:08:13 <telexicon> CM, why thank you :)
Nov 13 14:08:14 <nbd> the problem is lots of low skill programmers doing stuff
Nov 13 14:08:15 <nbd> :)
Nov 13 14:08:34 <telexicon> but python has a lower barrier to entry
Nov 13 14:08:35 <Tomasu> nbd: it attracts people that cant program.
Nov 13 14:08:43 <Tomasu> people that _Shouldnt_ program
Nov 13 14:08:48 <Stephmw> hahaha
Nov 13 14:08:53 <telexicon> so there most be more people using it who arent as experienced
Nov 13 14:08:54 <CM> Tomasu: No, they get stuck in VBA ;)
Nov 13 14:08:59 <nbd> Tomasu: php is best at taht
Nov 13 14:09:01 <Tomasu> not anymore...
Nov 13 14:09:09 <Tomasu> python is the new thing...
Nov 13 14:09:09 <Stephmw> Tomasu: you're right - we should think of job security
Nov 13 14:09:11 <telexicon> must
Nov 13 14:09:16 <Stephmw> Tomasu: back to ASM for the rest of us
Nov 13 14:09:18 <Tomasu> Stephmw: uh, no.
Nov 13 14:09:18 <nbd> i mean look at all the php apps out there, 95% crippled beyond anything
Nov 13 14:09:36 <telexicon> nbd, but thats not just because of the sloppy programmers
Nov 13 14:09:38 <Tomasu> if you like python and are GOOD at it, use it. I honestly dont care.
Nov 13 14:09:47 <nbd> telexicon: yes, php actively encourages bad code
Nov 13 14:09:51 <telexicon> php's design encourages bad programming style
Nov 13 14:10:10 <Tomasu> I charge people more for working in php...
Nov 13 14:10:15 <davidw> ehheeh
Nov 13 14:10:18 <telexicon> 5000 functions in global scope, yeehaw
Nov 13 14:10:45 <nbd> python encourages a somewhat better programming style and perl lets you choose your own programming style rather freely
Nov 13 14:11:06 <telexicon> python lets you choose
Nov 13 14:11:08 <Tomasu> exactly.
Nov 13 14:11:20 <Tomasu> telexicon: no it doesmt, it forces the whole white space thing on you
Nov 13 14:11:36 <telexicon> oh right
Nov 13 14:11:52 <telexicon> the non-indenting paradigm must be really catching on
Nov 13 14:11:58 <Tomasu> ::)
Nov 13 14:12:08 <Tomasu> yes, thats exactly what I meant ::)
Nov 13 14:12:19 <nbd> indentations that are not closed by syntactic tokens look ugly :P
Nov 13 14:12:28 <Tomasu> but anyhow, anyone actually playing with the android api atm?
Nov 13 14:12:35 * rwhitby prefers that his late night code is not used for language war comparisons ...
Nov 13 14:12:50 <Tomasu> nbd: for me, theres not enough contrast with just white space.
Nov 13 14:12:51 <nbd> rwhitby: oh come on, it's fun. at least if you don't take things too seriously
Nov 13 14:12:53 <davidw> Tomasu, yeah, porting Hecl to it
Nov 13 14:12:54 <telexicon> rwhitby, :) ill refrain from doing that in the future
Nov 13 14:13:02 <Tomasu> davidw: used the TabHost class yet? ;)
Nov 13 14:13:07 <davidw> no
Nov 13 14:13:19 <rwhitby> nbd: indeed it is fun, but hardly representative :-)
Nov 13 14:13:21 <Tomasu> it seems to be depreciated, but the online docs dont mention that, or the replacement
Nov 13 14:13:28 <nbd> rwhitby: it doesn't have to be
Nov 13 14:13:39 <telexicon> its already a subjective argument
Nov 13 14:13:40 <davidw> it's pretty funny that something that is a beta release has deprecated stuff
Nov 13 14:13:59 <Tomasu> no kidding
Nov 13 14:14:17 <nbd> but yes, android is cool, the emulator is fun, and the openwrt banner looks nice in the emulator
Nov 13 14:14:20 <nbd> ;)
Nov 13 14:14:52 <rwhitby> nbd: so when will you have the android rootfs running on an openwrt kernel?
Nov 13 14:15:03 <nbd> rwhitby: when there's a buildable source :P
Nov 13 14:15:12 <CVirus> When did Android start ?
Nov 13 14:15:21 <telexicon> yesterday?
Nov 13 14:15:27 <CVirus> wtf .. really ?
Nov 13 14:15:39 <wom-> :)
Nov 13 14:15:43 <telexicon> i was expecting more people to come to this channel
Nov 13 14:15:47 <telexicon> oh well
Nov 13 14:15:55 <rwhitby> nbd: who needs source - you have the binaries and you know they are eabi armel - you  wanted an excuse to move openwrt to eabi didn't you?
Nov 13 14:16:05 <CVirus> Now I'm pretty excited :-D
Nov 13 14:16:09 <telexicon> i was hoping for something like #ubuntu at release time
Nov 13 14:16:16 <davidw> unusable?
Nov 13 14:16:18 <RP> rwhitby: I got poky "running" in it: http://www.rpsys.net/wp/?p=13 :)
Nov 13 14:16:23 <telexicon> davidw, pretty much
Nov 13 14:16:29 <nbd> rwhitby: i don't just want to throw in the rootfs as-is
Nov 13 14:16:30 <CVirus> Why wouldn't google just co-ordinate with OpenMoko instead of starting a new embedded platform !
Nov 13 14:16:45 <nbd> rwhitby: i want to make it a component on top of openwrt
Nov 13 14:16:51 <nbd> CVirus: because it's a rather different approach
Nov 13 14:16:56 <telexicon> CVirus, there are a few possible reasons
Nov 13 14:17:28 <rwhitby> nbd: if you did it as-is, you would have the first android hardware in the wild ...
Nov 13 14:17:30 <CVirus> telexicon, state some please
Nov 13 14:17:44 <nbd> rwhitby: which hardware?
Nov 13 14:17:53 <davidw> QUERY telexicon for REASONS behind ANDROID DECISION
Nov 13 14:18:08 <rwhitby> nbd: don't you have something that runs openwrt and has a screen and keyboard?
Nov 13 14:18:20 <rwhitby> doesn't need to have a phone
Nov 13 14:18:27 <Tomasu> SELECT * from telexicon.reasons_behind_android_selection WHERE whoknows = 1;
Nov 13 14:18:31 <telexicon> CVirus, google wanted to be in control; openmoko's design wasnt popular with cellphone hardware companies; openmoko's design didnt fit into google's strategy
Nov 13 14:18:49 <rwhitby> RP: nice
Nov 13 14:19:00 <nbd> rwhitby: no armel
Nov 13 14:19:32 <rwhitby> nbd: usb->vga on a slug?
Nov 13 14:19:50 <nbd> i don't have a slug, and i don't have a usb->vga
Nov 13 14:20:27 <RP> rwhitby: A zaurus c7x0 locked into qvga mode might work... ;-)
Nov 13 14:20:50 <rwhitby> RP: now you're thinking.
Nov 13 14:20:58 <telexicon> SELECT * FROM telexicon.knowledge_base INNER JOIN telexicon.logic_matrix ON telexicon.knowledge_base.android_selection_id = telexicon.logic_matrix_id;
Nov 13 14:21:20 <telexicon> aw darn i messed it up.. oh well
Nov 13 14:21:27 <CVirus> Can't I write Python based applications for Android ?
Nov 13 14:21:28 <rwhitby> RP: I have one of those, but I'm not going to spend my 40th birthday hacking android onto a zaurus ...
Nov 13 14:21:36 <telexicon> CVirus, no, not yet :)
Nov 13 14:22:10 <telexicon> CVirus, the opinions and statements expressed here do not necessarily represent the views of Google Inc.
Nov 13 14:22:28 <RP> rwhitby: I can understand that. hb btw! :)
Nov 13 14:22:33 <CVirus> telexicon, I totally understand
Nov 13 14:22:41 <CVirus> now I'm confused whether to buy the Neo1973 or not
Nov 13 14:23:02 <telexicon> CVirus, python is not available but im hoping it might become available... google hasn't said anything at this point
Nov 13 14:23:52 <RP> Has anyone managed to build the emulator sources and run the provided images? I've tried building it on several machines and it oopes on them all :(
Nov 13 14:27:58 <Stephmw> RP: any ideas why mount -o loop (with or without offset) wouldn't mount the provided images?
Nov 13 14:28:08 <riot> heya.
Nov 13 14:28:20 <RP> Stephmw: Which format are you trying to mount them with?
Nov 13 14:28:40 <Stephmw> RP: I've tried vfat, ext2 and cramfs
Nov 13 14:28:53 <RP> Stephmw: They're yaffs2 ;-)
Nov 13 14:29:03 <Stephmw> RP: pfft, no bloody wonder :)
Nov 13 14:29:11 * Stephmw hopes that module is compiled
Nov 13 14:29:14 <RP> Stephmw: Painful as most systems don't have that...
Nov 13 14:29:19 <RP> yaffs2 isn't mainline
Nov 13 14:29:33 * RP wishes it was jffs2...
Nov 13 14:29:52 <RP> but then the emulated mtd drivers are a bit of a hack too...
Nov 13 14:30:14 * RP suspects goldfish isn't real hardware
Nov 13 14:30:22 * Stephmw gives ubuntu the finger
Nov 13 14:30:42 <Stephmw> dammit, now I'm gonna have to hunt for the config for my kernel
Nov 13 14:30:53 <RP> Stephmw: and probably patch it
Nov 13 14:31:00 <Stephmw> RP: argh, that bad?
Nov 13 14:31:12 <RP> Stephmw: Like I said, yaffs2 isn't in mainline
Nov 13 14:32:10 <rwhitby> RP: google have said that goldfish is an artificial architecture
Nov 13 14:32:26 <RP> rwhitby: fair enough :)
Nov 13 14:32:31 <telexicon> so, whats involved in making a terminal emulator?
Nov 13 14:33:01 <riot> anyone working on a gps/jabber/pim app?
Nov 13 14:34:06 <davidw> telexicon, looking at the canvas, maybe?
Nov 13 14:34:24 <telexicon> davidw, well im considering making some kind of xterm
Nov 13 14:34:30 <telexicon> it would be useful
Nov 13 14:34:34 <davidw> telexicon, in java, right?
Nov 13 14:34:38 <telexicon> yea
Nov 13 14:35:18 <cutmasta> riot, nice host ;)
Nov 13 14:35:59 <hrw> morning
Nov 13 14:36:06 <telexicon> maybe this channel will end up with a lot of people
Nov 13 14:36:19 <Stephmw> hey hrw
Nov 13 14:36:35 <Stephmw> RP: ok... not something I'm going to mess with over a remote connection :)
Nov 13 14:36:36 <hrw> telexicon: question is how many of them will be target devs/usrs
Nov 13 14:37:53 <davidw> telexicon, http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/graphics/Canvas.html
Nov 13 14:38:20 <riot> cutmasta: why?
Nov 13 14:38:41 <telexicon> davidw, well ok.. but i dont know whats involved in emulating a terminal
Nov 13 14:39:02 <hrw> telexicon: terminal in java?
Nov 13 14:39:04 <telexicon> davidw, or would i just make a custom simple terminal that doesnt do like xterm or anything
Nov 13 14:39:13 <davidw> telexicon, start simple, then go from there
Nov 13 14:39:14 <telexicon> davidw, no i guess id need to, to display stuff from ssh
Nov 13 14:39:19 <davidw> maybe look up things that exist already
Nov 13 14:39:28 <davidw> there's probably stuff out there
Nov 13 14:39:29 <telexicon> davidw, did that :) i found some LGPL code in java
Nov 13 14:39:37 <telexicon> emulating VT100
Nov 13 14:40:18 <cutmasta> riot, cause of the krombacher-pils in the host
Nov 13 14:42:47 <riot> cutmasta: ya, though i prefer reissdorf kölsch or kilkenny.
Nov 13 14:43:17 <telexicon> i like berlinerkransen
Nov 13 14:43:18 <riot> so, no one working on a full fledged gps/jabber/pim software? I wanna play Scotland Yard with my phone and some mates.
Nov 13 14:43:29 <cutmasta> riot, cannot drink any reissdorfer any more since sunday in cologne :)
Nov 13 14:43:38 <riot> Whats the preferred language to develop android apps?
Nov 13 14:43:44 <telexicon> riot, java
Nov 13 14:43:49 <riot> cutmasta: aah. So you had some real hangover.
Nov 13 14:43:51 <telexicon> its the only language atm
Nov 13 14:43:55 <riot> oh noes. I _HATE_ java.
Nov 13 14:44:00 <cutmasta> riot, definetly
Nov 13 14:44:07 <aualin> java is simply awesome
Nov 13 14:44:10 <telexicon> dont we all
Nov 13 14:44:12 <riot> Java: Write once, run nowhere. Or: Write once, hack anywhere.
Nov 13 14:44:27 <riot> java IS stupid. Python rocks FAR more.
Nov 13 14:44:32 <aualin> maybe
Nov 13 14:44:39 <aualin> but java runs on more platforms
Nov 13 14:44:40 <telexicon> yes
Nov 13 14:44:41 <riot> Why does google (i mean, GvR works there) use java.../!"§)!$
Nov 13 14:44:50 <telexicon> im hoping python will get supported
Nov 13 14:44:54 <telexicon> cause google likes python
Nov 13 14:44:59 <aualin> that would be great...
Nov 13 14:45:01 <riot> aualin: oh, you can piggyback python apps on a jvm using jython...
Nov 13 14:45:10 <aualin> riot: i know
Nov 13 14:45:10 <telexicon> riot, sort of
Nov 13 14:45:20 <telexicon> python still runs on a lot of platforms on its own
Nov 13 14:45:24 <riot> hmm. Sun must've paid someone nice money....
Nov 13 14:45:27 <aualin> riot: but i dont think it's useful on phones
Nov 13 14:45:30 <riot> telexicon: exactly.
Nov 13 14:45:34 <davidw> or, you know, eager hackers could write *code* and make other things work
Nov 13 14:45:51 <davidw> Hecl runs on the thing
Nov 13 14:45:56 <riot> aualin: why not? I developed some openmoko apps in pure python. Its so much more fun to use python..
Nov 13 14:45:57 <aualin> riot: and you know, its open source, add python support yourself
Nov 13 14:46:00 <telexicon> riot, no.. google picked it because java is already popular in the mobile space
Nov 13 14:46:13 <telexicon> aualin, you dont want to do that
Nov 13 14:46:13 <riot> telexicon: hm. still sucks. ;)
Nov 13 14:46:32 <hrw> telexicon: no - they picked java to block any access to system and hardware
Nov 13 14:46:35 <aualin> riot: i didnt say i python is bad, i love python. but i still gotta protect my beloved java :)
Nov 13 14:46:39 <telexicon> hrw, that too
Nov 13 14:46:49 <telexicon> which is probably why java is popular in the mobile space to being with
Nov 13 14:47:03 <riot> ok, i think, i should first of all investigate the SDK.. yet i really don't wanna taint my nice debian with java...
Nov 13 14:47:13 <hrw> telexicon: so it will be like old motorola linux phones. it run linux but for user/developer it is just another phone with j2me
Nov 13 14:47:17 <telexicon> riot, right because GPL software taints your nice debian
Nov 13 14:47:22 <riot> hrw: oh, that sounds EVIL. No good.
Nov 13 14:47:41 <aualin> riot: you havent got java? :O
Nov 13 14:47:48 <riot> no.
Nov 13 14:48:02 <telexicon> hrw, except its not j2me
Nov 13 14:48:04 <riot> i'm trying to avoid it.
Nov 13 14:48:07 <telexicon> hrw, its its open source all the way
Nov 13 14:48:11 <telexicon> and*
Nov 13 14:48:12 <davidw> riot, some guy got native executables running on it
Nov 13 14:48:12 <hrw> telexicon: but still java
Nov 13 14:48:26 <hrw> telexicon: I will wait until SDK will be really opensource
Nov 13 14:48:28 <davidw> so someone go try and get python running the same way
Nov 13 14:48:30 <telexicon> hrw, the whole stack is open source
Nov 13 14:48:36 <davidw> telexicon, will be
Nov 13 14:48:36 <telexicon> hrw, i mean it will be
Nov 13 14:48:49 <hrw> telexicon: in 2011?
Nov 13 14:48:56 <telexicon> hrw, you dont trust google?
Nov 13 14:49:02 <riot> erm. LOL?
Nov 13 14:49:04 <telexicon> when did they announce this?
Nov 13 14:49:08 <telexicon> like a week ago?
Nov 13 14:49:14 <telexicon> everybody said.. yea yea wait till they deliver
Nov 13 14:49:22 <telexicon> done.. its delivered
Nov 13 14:49:25 <riot> http://www.cnet.com/8301-13739_1-9811569-46.html << why should i trust google? ;)
Nov 13 14:49:42 <telexicon> i trust google with all non-personal stuff
Nov 13 14:49:45 <riot> Something totally different: What about hardware? I need a new phone.
Nov 13 14:50:05 <freezey> hey by any chance does anybody know the phone the white phone he was using in the video
Nov 13 14:50:09 <riot> telexicon: yeah, and my ip is quite private stuff - although my crazy government thinks differently..
Nov 13 14:50:21 <riot> freezey: i'd rather have the black one.
Nov 13 14:50:30 <cutmasta> ditop
Nov 13 14:50:31 <cutmasta> dito
Nov 13 14:50:32 <freezey> riot: wasnt the black one the iphone?
Nov 13 14:50:34 <telexicon> id rather have it on a moto razr
Nov 13 14:50:43 <freezey> riot: could also be verizons new bootleg iphone
Nov 13 14:50:45 <riot> freezey: w00t?! They must've bricked it... :D
Nov 13 14:51:03 <RP> telexicon: At some point am I going to be able to compile the whole stack from source?
Nov 13 14:51:10 <riot> I'd prefer a neo1973 with umts...
Nov 13 14:51:11 <telexicon> RP, yes
Nov 13 14:51:14 <davidw> RP, that's what they say
Nov 13 14:51:21 <telexicon> RP, kernel and bits will be GPL
Nov 13 14:51:23 <freezey> riot: do u know of the white one that was a pretty nice phone
Nov 13 14:51:24 <telexicon> the rest will be apache
Nov 13 14:51:28 <RP> telexicon: Any idea of when?
Nov 13 14:51:40 <telexicon> RP, probably when it comes out of beta :)
Nov 13 14:51:44 <telexicon> in 5 years ^^
Nov 13 14:51:59 <RP> telexicon: right. This is what I fear :(
Nov 13 14:52:06 <riot> freezey: looked a bit like an e61 from nokia :)
Nov 13 14:52:06 <telexicon> nah
Nov 13 14:52:16 <telexicon> google is on a tight schedule
Nov 13 14:52:18 <freezey> riot: yeah that phone isnt to bad looking but compared to the black one and the white one the neo got nothing
Nov 13 14:52:19 <riot> i s'pose its a htc.
Nov 13 14:52:23 <telexicon> they need to get this all together before apple's SDK is ready
Nov 13 14:52:48 <telexicon> right now google has a head start.. but
Nov 13 14:53:02 <telexicon> they've got mobile developers ready with the $10million in prizes thing
Nov 13 14:53:08 <riot> freezey: http://bp0.blogger.com/_ZaGO7GjCqAI/RzifTEH2RiI/AAAAAAAAGRI/8xn8Q2pVQMc/s640/android-phone.jpg << you mean this one?
Nov 13 14:53:32 <riot> telexicon: have you seen openmoko?
Nov 13 14:53:53 <freezey> riot: exactly
Nov 13 14:53:59 <davidw> anyone know offhand how to dump stuff to the console?
Nov 13 14:54:02 <freezey> riot: which phone is that?
Nov 13 14:54:17 <riot> freezey: i dunno. Looks heavily like some htc prototype.
Nov 13 14:55:31 <freezey> riot: i just wanna find a phone that i can load this on
Nov 13 14:56:43 <Ubersoldat> that's no phone, it's the sdk
Nov 13 14:56:59 <cutmasta> it is just the emulator
Nov 13 14:57:12 <cutmasta> it looks like the phone from the video
Nov 13 14:57:16 <cutmasta> by steve h.
Nov 13 14:57:22 <telexicon> riot, yea
Nov 13 14:58:12 <riot> lol :)
Nov 13 14:58:48 <Ubersoldat> althought, there's a video where they show a PDA running it
Nov 13 15:04:14 <tmccrary> Does anyone know what type of hardware android is targeted at? Low end and high end?
Nov 13 15:04:24 <tmccrary> I'm curious from a performance perspectie
Nov 13 15:04:30 <tmccrary> perspective
Nov 13 15:04:44 <telexicon> well google is wanting you to be very performance conscious
Nov 13 15:05:00 <telexicon> theres a whole section in the docs on making sure your apps run as fast as possible
Nov 13 15:06:21 <hrw> telexicon: if htc will install it on omap850 it will be slow. on htc with samsung244x it will be faster
Nov 13 15:08:27 <freezey> i am just lookin for a phone to get to put it on
Nov 13 15:08:34 <freezey> i like that white one that he used in the video lol
Nov 13 15:10:19 <freezey> t-mobile dash is pretty nice
Nov 13 15:13:55 <hrw> freezey: you mean HTC Excalibur?
Nov 13 15:14:13 <hrw> its omap850 - one of slower ones
Nov 13 15:20:23 <tmccrary> Is google planning on flash support for the webkit browser with android?
Nov 13 15:21:44 <Stephmw> you'd hope so - even though a lot of existing mobiles only support flash apps, rather than embedded flash
Nov 13 15:21:45 <freezey> http://www.unwiredview.com/2007/11/06/htc-omni-surfaces-at-google-as-htc-dreamwith-android-os/
Nov 13 15:21:51 <freezey> riot: http://www.unwiredview.com/2007/11/06/htc-omni-surfaces-at-google-as-htc-dreamwith-android-os/
Nov 13 15:21:57 <freezey> riot: thats the black one
Nov 13 15:22:18 <matt_c> I keep thinking that the android phone pictured in the emulator looks eerily like the Palm Centro.
Nov 13 15:23:11 <Stephmw> it's quite similar to some of the later Zaurii
Nov 13 15:26:23 <riot> meow.
Nov 13 15:26:39 <matt_c> mmm zaurii
Nov 13 15:28:27 <freezey> the dam phone is probably just a prototype were talkin about google here... they prolly got the most exclusive stuff to test on
Nov 13 15:28:54 <freezey> companies are probably payin them to test their products
Nov 13 15:33:35 <rcjsuen> Hi, I noticed the Eclipse plug-in has the android projects preconfigured to use a Java 5 compiler. Are the JVM that's running on top of the Android kernel expected to be Java 5 compliant then I guess?
Nov 13 15:34:48 <davidw> it's not a jvm, apparently
Nov 13 15:34:58 <davidw> but the syntax you can use is java5, yes
Nov 13 15:35:12 <rcjsuen> Not a JVM...?
Nov 13 15:35:18 <rcjsuen> Is this like the GWT where it translates my Java code? lol
Nov 13 15:40:49 <freezey> what chipset is andriod made to run off of
Nov 13 15:41:20 <davidw> rcjsuen, it runs their own VM
Nov 13 15:41:25 <davidw> freezey, arm
Nov 13 15:41:41 <rcjsuen> Hm, interesting.
Nov 13 15:41:47 <freezey> k thanks
Nov 13 15:46:10 <SanMehat> morning
Nov 13 15:48:18 <riot> must be hand-built. Probably carved out of wood, that prototype *lol*
Nov 13 15:49:31 <guardian> hello, just discovered the android project. is there a way i could provide an additional native library to the platform ?
Nov 13 15:50:31 <CM> guardian: Yes, it sounded like that from the devs
Nov 13 15:50:43 <nbd> but probably not yet
Nov 13 15:50:49 <CM> Exactly
Nov 13 15:50:51 <CM> :)
Nov 13 15:51:49 <guardian> ok
Nov 13 15:51:53 <guardian> too bad :)
Nov 13 15:53:00 <rcjsuen> Is all memory managed like actual Java? Do I need to explicitly dispose any resources like I would in SWT?
Nov 13 15:54:02 <telexicon> in cases where you know a resource will no longer be used, you might want to manually dispose them
Nov 13 15:54:19 <telexicon> to free up memory yes?
Nov 13 15:55:00 <rcjsuen> So I guess this is kind of like the usual calling of close() on InputStreams and OutputStreams.
Nov 13 15:55:46 <telexicon> im not saying you have to
Nov 13 15:55:52 <telexicon> just you might want to since resources are limited
Nov 13 15:56:24 <rcjsuen> Right.
Nov 13 15:56:35 <rcjsuen> Well, I mean, I do call close() and dispose() on my SWT stuff obviously.
Nov 13 15:56:41 <rcjsuen> Was trying to get a feel of which classes are the ones I should be aware of
Nov 13 15:56:45 <rcjsuen> I suppose was the question
Nov 13 16:15:56 <d03boy> when I put my stuff in SVN what files should I put in?
Nov 13 16:16:48 <davidw> hrm
Nov 13 16:16:48 <soulreaper> hi folks
Nov 13 16:17:12 <d03boy> hi
Nov 13 16:17:40 <ScaredyCat> all of the source files
Nov 13 16:17:47 <soulreaper> i am all excited about the sdk. really fun to work with. (on day 1 ;) )
Nov 13 16:17:58 <ScaredyCat> and any makefiles no object files though
Nov 13 16:17:58 <d03boy> ScaredyCat, does that include the xml and stuff?
Nov 13 16:18:04 <d03boy> ok
Nov 13 16:18:39 <ScaredyCat> basically everything someone needs (except dependancies) to build your app
Nov 13 16:19:03 <d03boy> ok
Nov 13 16:19:12 <d03boy> anyone know how to change the name of the main Asset?
Nov 13 16:19:23 <d03boy> i named mine waaaaaaaaaaah because I wasnt sure wht ti was, haha
Nov 13 16:24:01 <soulreaper> main asset? you mean main activity?
Nov 13 16:24:35 <hrw> bye
Nov 13 16:28:20 <matt_c> heh: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/11/13/Gate
Nov 13 16:29:41 <davidw> hrm...
Nov 13 16:29:58 <davidw> this NotificationManager thing isn't quite right: http://code.google.com/android/kb/commontasks.html#alerts
Nov 13 16:32:49 <jasonchen> davidw: what's wrong w/ the NotificationManager?
Nov 13 16:33:09 <guardian> do android devs join here ?
Nov 13 16:33:15 <guardian> i mean the ones from google
Nov 13 16:33:21 <jasonchen> guardian: yes, i'm from google
Nov 13 16:33:33 <guardian> nice
Nov 13 16:33:44 <davidw> jasonchen, http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/app/NotificationManager.html I can't find the getDefault method here
Nov 13 16:34:10 <jasonchen> guardian: we hang out in here and provide help in an unofficial manner
Nov 13 16:34:11 <davidw> and it's not compiling either for that matter
Nov 13 16:34:26 <jasonchen> but you'll probably see me and morrildl around a lot
Nov 13 16:34:44 <guardian> ok
Nov 13 16:36:37 <jasonchen> davidw: hmmm, lemme take a look
Nov 13 16:37:02 <davidw> jasonchen, one of the examples has this:             NotificationManager nm = (NotificationManager)
Nov 13 16:37:02 <davidw>                 getSystemService(NOTIFICATION_SERVICE);
Nov 13 16:39:05 <davidw> jasonchen, yeah, that example is broken - AlarmController.java has functioning code
Nov 13 16:40:36 <jasonchen> david: ah, looks like we didn't catch that in the docs
Nov 13 16:42:47 <davidw> I'd rather have $10 per bug than a shot at oodles of money in some contest;-)
Nov 13 16:43:10 <davidw> thanks for confirming, though
Nov 13 16:44:32 <jasonchen> davidw: i'm filing a flagging that for our docs clean-up
Nov 13 16:45:38 <davidw> jasonchen, it's very cool of you guys to hang out here
Nov 13 16:45:41 <d03boy> jasonchen, hi, what's your role on the project?
Nov 13 16:46:00 <jasonchen> d03boy: like morrildl, i'm a developer advocate
Nov 13 16:46:05 <rcjsuen> Advocate?
Nov 13 16:46:06 <d03boy> ok
Nov 13 16:46:10 <davidw> it's way better talking to a real person with a buglet like that than dealing with that mailing list which is a zoo at the moment
Nov 13 16:46:12 <rcjsuen> As in evangelist?
Nov 13 16:46:12 <jasonchen> davidw: well, we know where the action is :-)
Nov 13 16:46:49 <jasonchen> rcjsuen: yes, but we prefer the term advocate as evangelist can have...problematic connotations
Nov 13 16:46:57 <rcjsuen> Certainly.
Nov 13 16:47:10 <rcjsuen> My friend had that term on his CV and I told him to remove it.
Nov 13 16:47:43 <rcjsuen> So we are supposed to just report ADT bugs on the forum per the message on the issue tracker?
Nov 13 16:47:54 <jasonchen> davidw: we think so too about talking interactively.  the mailing list is certainly very active at the moment, but we're excited by all the enthusiasm
Nov 13 16:48:05 <jasonchen> rcjsuen: yes, please
Nov 13 16:48:40 <jasonchen> rcjsuen: please include info like the operating system, version of Eclipse, and any other info that you can provide to help us track down and recreate the issue
Nov 13 16:48:48 <rcjsuen> jasonchen: Of course.
Nov 13 16:48:53 <rcjsuen> I just wish we didn't have to use the mailing list.
Nov 13 16:49:37 <jonbaer> is there a way to emulate an incoming call?
Nov 13 16:49:56 <davidw> jonbaer, yeah, I think you can do that using adb
Nov 13 16:51:15 <jasonchen> jonbaer: yes, check out: http://code.google.com/android/reference/emulator.html
Nov 13 16:51:57 <jasonchen> jonbaer: basically, you telnet to the emulator and issue a "call <phonenumber>
Nov 13 16:51:59 <jasonchen> " command
Nov 13 16:52:43 <jasonchen> rcjsuen: we're looking at improving how you can report bugs
Nov 13 16:52:52 <rcjsuen> jasonchen: Okay, that's reassuring.
Nov 13 16:53:13 <jasonchen> rcjsuen: but for now, the mailing list is the best way to make sure we catch it
Nov 13 16:53:20 <rcjsuen> k
Nov 13 16:53:33 <rcjsuen> It's nothing big. Just click an enabled button. It does nothing, see NPE in the logs.
Nov 13 16:53:46 <rcjsuen> I presume it's enabled because it should be disabled (given the current state of Eclipse/ADT).
Nov 13 16:53:51 <jasonchen> rcjsuen: put something like "Bug Report:" at the beginning of the subject for your post and our team will catch it more easily
Nov 13 16:54:26 <jasonchen> rcjsuen: that might be the case; screenshots would be really helpful if you can recreate the scenario
Nov 13 16:54:52 <jasonchen> jonbaer: did that work for you?
Nov 13 16:56:14 <jonbaer> it seems the call should be (from docs), adb gsm call 12125551212
Nov 13 16:56:14 <soulreaper> the ADT doesn't work with eclipse 3.4M3 right?
Nov 13 16:56:23 <PDani> hi
Nov 13 16:56:49 <rcjsuen> soulreaper: Well, I blogged about that, and another person on 3.4M2 failed too.
Nov 13 16:57:02 <soulreaper> rcjsuen: good. well bad actually ;)
Nov 13 16:57:08 <soulreaper> where did you blog?
Nov 13 16:57:09 <PDani> is it possible to install android to a phone in current stage of development?
Nov 13 16:57:14 <rcjsuen> soulreaper: You can find it on planet.
Nov 13 16:57:22 <jasonchen> soulreaper: ADT isn't quite working on 3.4 yet
Nov 13 16:57:24 <PDani> for example, to a 9300i :)
Nov 13 16:57:36 <rcjsuen> soulreaper: I believe Google is using internal APIs, which is why it fails.
Nov 13 16:57:41 <jasonchen> jonbaer: yes, you can use the adb command as well
Nov 13 16:57:42 <soulreaper> ah i see it @ rcjsuen
Nov 13 16:58:03 <soulreaper> rcjsuen: yeah. judging from the .log it does
Nov 13 16:58:20 <soulreaper> and i just saw that the planet is swarming with android news *G*
Nov 13 17:00:13 <davidw> PDani, if you are a badass hardware hacker, maybe
Nov 13 17:00:47 <cutmasta> re
Nov 13 17:00:57 <PDani> davidw: :)
Nov 13 17:01:37 <jonbaer> how would u do it via adb, i started emulator -console, telnet to 5554 and issue gsm command, what does the syntax look like for adb?
Nov 13 17:03:41 <jasonchen> jonbaer: sorry, i was mistaken
Nov 13 17:03:58 <jasonchen> jonbaer: thought you could also do it via adb shell, but that's not the case w/ this command
Nov 13 17:04:04 <Al2O3> ok, so I'm excited :)  is there a VNC server for android yet?
Nov 13 17:04:24 <davidw> this guy hans is right on... the web pages eat cpu!
Nov 13 17:05:29 <rcjsuen> davidw: Odd indeed. Both my CPUs are reporting 100% with conky.
Nov 13 17:06:04 <jonbaer> can you run apps from sdcard?
Nov 13 17:07:14 <jasonchen> jonbaer: so, technically, no. but there's a way to work around this the last time i tried
Nov 13 17:07:46 <jasonchen> jonbaer: if you have an emulator running, delete the /data/apps directory and then put a symlink in its place to the sdcard
Nov 13 17:08:11 <jonbaer> im just wondering since i cant seem to run apps from blackberry pearl via card so im interested in options for loading up sdcard w/ apps + if it ran same way as zaurus (w/ symlinks)
Nov 13 17:14:00 <soulreaper> is the development of the ADT actually opensource?
Nov 13 17:14:10 <don-o> im trying to run an android project in eclipse. i get "Emulator quit with an error!". is there a log somewhere?
Nov 13 17:14:46 <soulreaper> don-o: propably as with every other Eclipse run intance in your workspaces .log file
Nov 13 17:15:21 <d03boy> i have no idea how to name my package since i'm not part of an organization :(
Nov 13 17:15:32 <Stephmw> make it up?
Nov 13 17:15:38 <jonbaer> com.yourname
Nov 13 17:16:12 <don-o> it'd probably be better to use a non-existant top-level domain.
Nov 13 17:16:30 <jonbaer> what console command can run an .apk from the command line?
Nov 13 17:16:36 <d03boy> i'll use my website i guess
Nov 13 17:16:53 <soulreaper> that shouldn't be a new phenomena to you ;)
Nov 13 17:17:18 <davidw> jasonchen, does reflection actually work?
Nov 13 17:18:36 <soulreaper> davidw: yes it does
Nov 13 17:18:44 <davidw> hrm
Nov 13 17:18:54 <don-o> soulreaper: i dont seem to have any log files in the workspace.
Nov 13 17:19:12 <davidw> cool, just me being stupid
Nov 13 17:19:36 <soulreaper> don-o: workspace/.metadata/.log
Nov 13 17:21:07 <rcjsuen> soulreaper: For licensing, see 1.3 http://code.google.com/android/terms.html
Nov 13 17:21:08 <don-o> soulreaper: ah thx.
Nov 13 17:21:15 <don-o> !MESSAGE Invalid preference page path: Cache
Nov 13 17:21:24 <rcjsuen> soulreaper: The same terms comes up on the Update Manager for ADT, so I'm guessing it applies to ADT too, but of course, only Google knows ;)
Nov 13 17:21:55 <soulreaper> rcjsuen: so there is no way to participate in the dev of the ADT yet?
Nov 13 17:21:55 <doofy`> any idea what the package manager is going to be?
Nov 13 17:22:04 <rcjsuen> soulreaper: You can file bugs. ;)
Nov 13 17:22:13 <rcjsuen> soulreaper: I'm going to file one after my lectures have ended and I went home.
Nov 13 17:22:16 <soulreaper> that is semi-cool ;)
Nov 13 17:22:19 <rcjsuen> soulreaper: But right now I should be paying attention to the prof ;)
Nov 13 17:22:33 <soulreaper> what topic is he talking about?
Nov 13 17:22:45 <rcjsuen> This is a western history course. He's talking about the renaissance atm
Nov 13 17:23:05 <soulreaper> what are you studying?
Nov 13 17:23:35 <rcjsuen> I'm in math, but this is just an elective.
Nov 13 17:23:43 <soulreaper> ah okay :)
Nov 13 17:23:56 <soulreaper> i am actually having my final master colloquium tomorrow :)
Nov 13 17:24:33 <rcjsuen> soulreaper: oh, good luck with that
Nov 13 17:24:37 <soulreaper> thanks
Nov 13 17:25:18 <don-o> is it bad to move the SDK? i moved the directory and now the emulator wont start
Nov 13 17:25:31 <soulreaper> don-o: shouldn't be a problem
Nov 13 17:25:38 <rcjsuen> Android SDK or Eclipse?
Nov 13 17:25:41 <soulreaper> but i don't know ;) just adapt the path in the prefs
Nov 13 17:25:45 <don-o> rcjsuen: android
Nov 13 17:25:47 <rcjsuen> If you move the Android SDK, you need to set the preferences to point at the right path.
Nov 13 17:25:56 <rcjsuen> It's one of the steps you need when you installed it, no?
Nov 13 17:26:04 <soulreaper> is the demo game which is in the sdk not directly loaded in the sample apps of the sdk? i can't find it
Nov 13 17:26:08 <don-o> the prefs path is correct. im talking about running it directly from tools\
Nov 13 17:26:42 <rcjsuen> an, my mistake
Nov 13 17:27:06 <don-o> hmm. 'it seems too many emulator instances are running on this machine. Aborting'.
Nov 13 17:27:28 <don-o> there are no other instances as far as i can tell.
Nov 13 17:27:41 <don-o> maybe its time for a Windows three-finger-salute (reboot)
Nov 13 17:28:20 <jonbaer> do u use mksdcard to also create ramdisk.img?
Nov 13 17:28:51 <tmccrary> what an awesome time for opengl es docs to go down
Nov 13 17:30:22 <soulreaper> the android vm does jre does not register itself in the eclipse platform right?
Nov 13 17:31:18 <Stephmw> naaah, the vm lives in the qemu emulated environment
Nov 13 17:35:03 <iwkse> hi, can somebody explain to me which are local restrictions for Italy and Quebec?
Nov 13 17:35:13 <tmccrary> ha, I was reading that earlier
Nov 13 17:35:34 <davidw> iwkse, some lame-ass bureaucracy, no doubt
Nov 13 17:35:40 <iwkse> must be..
Nov 13 17:35:46 <iwkse> but i wanted to know more
Nov 13 17:37:32 <d03boy> where can I find the java api for android? i dont see it in the sdk/docs
Nov 13 17:37:41 <tmccrary> it's there
Nov 13 17:37:45 <davidw> d03boy, you could try googling for it
Nov 13 17:37:48 <davidw> hehe
Nov 13 17:37:49 <tmccrary> lol
Nov 13 17:37:57 <tmccrary> http://code.google.com/android/reference/index.html
Nov 13 17:37:57 <rcjsuen> d03boy: Isn't it there?
Nov 13 17:38:02 <tmccrary> check the Packages Index
Nov 13 17:38:04 <soulreaper> yyyyiha... i have landed the spacecraft *G*
Nov 13 17:38:26 <d03boy> oh, no wonder I didnt see it. I was expecting it to be in the regular javadoc format
Nov 13 17:38:35 <rcjsuen> d03boy: sadly, it's not ;(((
Nov 13 17:39:26 <d03boy> I do like how it has pictures though :)
Nov 13 17:40:14 <jonbaer> should loading of a custom icon.png w/ LAUNCHER intent work? i cant get my own icon to show
Nov 13 17:41:02 <iwkse> davidw: i found why...i must leave this shit country pff
Nov 13 17:41:23 <iwkse> goodbye android
Nov 13 17:41:32 <xbit_> hello
Nov 13 17:41:37 <xbit_> android
Nov 13 17:41:57 <wom-> any good list of ui widgets their resource names etc
Nov 13 17:42:19 <xbit_> are there any examples of the media support in the sdk? mp3, mpeg4, etc?
Nov 13 17:42:41 <cutmasta> xbit_, i think i saw it in the api docs
Nov 13 17:43:31 <soulreaper> yeah there are some media examples
Nov 13 17:44:30 <d03boy> for some reason the emulator seems to be rnning an old version of my program
Nov 13 17:44:31 <xbit_> you mean, here: http://code.google.com/android/reference/index.html
Nov 13 17:44:37 <xbit_> ?
Nov 13 17:44:45 <d03boy> when I run my source deos it do all of the compilation and building itself?
Nov 13 17:45:14 <soulreaper> d03boy: not building a final buinary
Nov 13 17:45:33 <d03boy> hmm?
Nov 13 17:46:01 <soulreaper> see the docs... they describe how to create an instalable build
Nov 13 17:46:14 <don-o> soulreaper: do you work for google?
Nov 13 17:46:27 <soulreaper> don-o: no. i just read the docs ;)
Nov 13 17:46:40 <d03boy> im just speaking in terms of testing. when I run from eclipse.. i'll read the docs anyway
Nov 13 17:46:48 <don-o> soulreaper: :->
Nov 13 17:47:09 <xbit_> wom-: here was a nice overview of widgets, http://code.google.com/android/reference/view-gallery.html
Nov 13 17:47:49 <don-o> xbit_: nice link
Nov 13 17:48:40 <rcjsuen> Thanks.
Nov 13 17:48:41 <puckett> They did some nice work with effects.  Was half expecting it to look like an old X window manager...
Nov 13 17:49:22 <tmccrary> yeah, they look nice, so far not quite as nice as the iphone's stuff, but pretty close and definately "good enough"
Nov 13 17:49:23 <soulreaper> yeah i had the same fears. it is not an iPhone ui but it certainly looks promissing
Nov 13 17:49:28 <soulreaper> tmccrary: hehe
Nov 13 17:49:31 <tmccrary> :)
Nov 13 17:49:44 <soulreaper> *restarting*
Nov 13 17:50:19 <wom-> xbit_: thanks :)
Nov 13 17:51:02 <wom-> just started to tinker with mapview and see how it works
Nov 13 17:52:56 <d03boy> gah, i can't get the emulator to run the new code
Nov 13 17:56:35 <soulreaper> ah that worked :)
Nov 13 17:58:00 <d03boy> soulreaper, when you make changes to your code and want to simulate it, you just right-click the java file and run it, right?
Nov 13 17:58:18 <soulreaper> d03boy: i had to create a run instance via the menu at the top
Nov 13 17:58:25 <d03boy> i did that
Nov 13 17:59:22 <soulreaper> than select the run configuration and run
Nov 13 18:01:08 <Dralspire> So are you guys all enjoying the new SDK?
Nov 13 18:01:28 <soulreaper> i certainly am
Nov 13 18:01:28 <tmccrary> I am, I have most of my graphics engine ported to it
Nov 13 18:01:29 <parti> not until i hear how to port j2me apps!
Nov 13 18:01:37 <Dralspire> Hehe ok :-)
Nov 13 18:01:39 <soulreaper> parti: no point really
Nov 13 18:01:48 <parti> they keep evading that question
Nov 13 18:01:57 <parti> 'they' ;)
Nov 13 18:02:09 <tmccrary> yeah, but I am of the opinion that j2me sucks, so I don't care :) to each his own
Nov 13 18:02:38 <tmccrary> I suppose since I've always avoided j2me where possible, it does hurt me as much because I don't have any apps to support
Nov 13 18:02:47 <tmccrary> err "doesn't hurt me"
Nov 13 18:03:07 <parti> yeah but for some apps that dont need rewrites, i would like to know if its gonna be possible to run them someday on android..or maybe i need to start porting now
Nov 13 18:03:11 <soulreaper> i have used jme a lot but it has always been unpleasent.
Nov 13 18:03:16 <davidw> I think there are licensing issues with j2me
Nov 13 18:03:46 <soulreaper> parti: running it is unlikely as this would require to install a proper j2me jre on android
Nov 13 18:04:40 <parti> soulreaper, ye i understand the current android vm is not java, but maybe they come up with another convert tool
Nov 13 18:04:43 <Stephmw> soulreaper: the MIDPath developer is already working on porting his work
Nov 13 18:04:54 <Stephmw> soulreaper: the thing plays j2me games fine
Nov 13 18:05:07 <parti> tmccrary, have you had any awful porting issues so far?
Nov 13 18:05:26 <parti> or was it pretty simple (which it looks like as far as i have seen the api)
Nov 13 18:05:45 <soulreaper> Stephmw: ah okay... i guess games are easier since the Sprite classes etc are part of antroid
Nov 13 18:06:04 <tmccrary> parti: no, it's been pretty stellar so far, but I'm porting from j2se
Nov 13 18:06:04 <puckett> If they're going to support Java it should be phoneME or something.  Let's break from j2me already.
Nov 13 18:06:25 <Stephmw> puckett: there's a body of existing games to use, don't throw them out with the bath water
Nov 13 18:06:27 <tmccrary> and my app was designed with porting to different types of systems/frameworks easily (opengl, directx, etc)
Nov 13 18:06:37 <parti> + nokia is not in the alliance
Nov 13 18:06:38 <Stephmw> soulreaper: it also supports LCDUI stuff
Nov 13 18:06:49 <soulreaper> yes exactlly
Nov 13 18:08:06 <puckett> Stephmw: Hey, I'm writing j2me right now.  I'm just saying, let's get something more than Java 1.3 to work with. :)
Nov 13 18:08:07 <davidw> Stephmw, what does?
Nov 13 18:08:50 <Dralspire> So guys, I'm working on an Android Wiki ... what would you consider main issues for Android?
Nov 13 18:09:12 <Stephmw> davidw: MIDPath
Nov 13 18:09:39 <Stephmw> davidw: http://midpath.thenesis.org
Nov 13 18:09:43 <soulreaper> Dralspire: you are the one working on the official wiki?
Nov 13 18:09:47 <parti> Dralspire, none, the site in topic is perfect
Nov 13 18:10:05 <Dralspire> ok
Nov 13 18:11:09 <soulreaper> i have no point either... so far the docu is sufficient. we will have to wait when people run into their first problems ;)
Nov 13 18:11:18 <davidw> Stephmw, cool...thanks
Nov 13 18:11:22 <Dralspire> hehe gotcha
Nov 13 18:11:30 <davidw> it would be perfect if it didn't chew CPU
Nov 13 18:12:36 <Stephmw> davidw: gotta head out, but feel free to msg me
Nov 13 18:14:34 <goxboxlive> Has anyone thested Anroid on any of the htc devices? WIll it run?
Nov 13 18:24:11 <d03boy> http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/d8276a583b50a61
Nov 13 18:24:16 <d03boy> there's my first problem
Nov 13 18:24:32 <d03boy> mostly to do with eclipse/environment though
Nov 13 18:26:15 <buz> is there a page with the differences to pure j2se/me?
Nov 13 18:30:56 <morrildl> What's up, folks?
Nov 13 18:31:34 <d03boy> howdy
Nov 13 18:31:38 * jasonchen thinks it's about time morrildl checked
Nov 13 18:31:40 <d03boy> just trying to solve my environment prblem
Nov 13 18:32:44 <mafu> It's quite depressing when the Hello World program won't start.
Nov 13 18:33:32 <d03boy> same problem here
Nov 13 18:33:41 <mafu> Really?
Nov 13 18:33:41 <d03boy> it worked the very first time I tried... now it wont work
Nov 13 18:33:42 <rcjsuen> Worked fine for me on Linux x86, it took maybe a few seconds though.
Nov 13 18:33:47 <tmccrary> I had no problems, what platforms are you on?
Nov 13 18:33:53 <mafu> The emulator fires up, but nothing starts
Nov 13 18:34:00 <d03boy> vista with the latest java
Nov 13 18:34:03 <mafu> I even followed the guide
Nov 13 18:34:11 <rcjsuen> mafu: I would sure hope so. ;)
Nov 13 18:34:15 <mafu> Hehe
Nov 13 18:34:26 <tmccrary> ouch vista
Nov 13 18:34:28 <tmccrary> :(
Nov 13 18:34:29 <mafu> Maybe it has got something to do with the Eclipse I'm running
Nov 13 18:34:34 <mafu> 3.2
Nov 13 18:34:37 <tmccrary> x86 Ubuntu here, no problems :)
Nov 13 18:34:40 <rcjsuen> mafu: I'm on 3.3.1.1.
Nov 13 18:34:43 <wom-> what happens in eclipse when simple hello world won't start when I run emulator.. it doesn't even stop in any breakpoint so its not loading app at all
Nov 13 18:34:54 <mafu> wom-, same here
Nov 13 18:34:55 * davidw uses ubuntu
Nov 13 18:34:58 <d03boy> im usuing Europa
Nov 13 18:35:00 <soulreaper> vista here to too. no problem
Nov 13 18:35:07 <mafu> I'm on Kubuntu 7.10
Nov 13 18:35:15 <soulreaper> europa sdk 1.6.0.3
Nov 13 18:35:20 <mafu> Is there a backport of a newer eclipse somewhere?
Nov 13 18:35:27 <rcjsuen> mafu: backport of a newer Eclipse?
Nov 13 18:35:43 <wom-> mafu: worked for a while and then stopped..
Nov 13 18:35:44 <mafu> rcjsuen, To ubuntu repos
Nov 13 18:35:48 <d03boy> soulreaper, same here
Nov 13 18:35:53 <mafu> wom-, never worked here
Nov 13 18:36:00 <mafu> Must mean bad luck from now on. :D
Nov 13 18:36:06 <wom-> for some reason it is not loadin app now
Nov 13 18:36:08 <tmccrary> I'm using ubuntu straight from the repos, 3.2
Nov 13 18:36:14 <tmccrary> err eclipse
Nov 13 18:36:15 <tmccrary> sorry
Nov 13 18:36:19 <rcjsuen> mafu: If you use Eclipse from the repositories and have problems, you need to talk to the Ubuntu guys.
Nov 13 18:36:28 <rcjsuen> "Eclipse 3.2, 3.3 (Europa)" they do list 3.2 as supported
Nov 13 18:36:29 <mafu> tmccrary, and it works fine?
Nov 13 18:36:42 <mafu> rcjsuen, weird. Then I have no idea what the problem is.
Nov 13 18:36:51 <mafu> But I like the emulator anyway. :)
Nov 13 18:36:57 <d03boy> it doesnt seem like its explicitly an eclipse problem
Nov 13 18:37:00 <mafu> It there a way to call the program from within there?
Nov 13 18:37:04 <d03boy> its like its not overwriting the build files
Nov 13 18:37:13 <d03boy> brb pizza
Nov 13 18:37:38 <jasonchen> wom-: try killing the adb process
Nov 13 18:37:55 <rcjsuen> Interesting, I cna't seem to reproduce the problem on 3.3.1.1 that I saw on 3.4M3.
Nov 13 18:38:21 <jasonchen> wom-: and then running your app again
Nov 13 18:38:21 <rcjsuen> I guess the best way to be sure is with a fresh 3.3.1.1 installation again.
Nov 13 18:38:37 <rcjsuen> Is there a tutorial with the drawing APIs, by the way?
Nov 13 18:39:22 <mafu> It's pretty hard to test anything when I can get no programs to run. :(
Nov 13 18:39:52 <jasonchen> wom-: http://code.google.com/android/kb/troubleshooting.html describes some troubleshooting steps that help
Nov 13 18:40:03 <wom-> jasonchen: thnks .. killing adb did the trick :)
Nov 13 18:40:14 <jasonchen> mafu: what version of eclipse are you using?
Nov 13 18:40:17 <d03boy> how can I kill adb in vista? it seems not to know what adb is
Nov 13 18:43:13 <mafu> jasonchen, 3.2.2-3ubuntu3
Nov 13 18:43:26 <mafu> d03boy, do you have the tools in your path?
Nov 13 18:43:38 <jasonchen> d03boy: try adb kill-server
Nov 13 18:44:26 <d03boy> mafu, ah that would be why
Nov 13 18:51:32 <d03boy> hmm.. killing adp helped a little, but it still displays an old program
Nov 13 18:54:11 <rcjsuen> jasonchen: Done http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/fc17b14e91cf53c4 Good luck with it, I would imagine it's an easy fix since it's an NPE, but anyway. ;)
Nov 13 18:55:17 <jasonchen> d03boy: you might try dropping into adb shell
Nov 13 18:55:40 <jasonchen> d03boy: and then deleting the .apk in the /data/app/ directory
Nov 13 18:56:47 <jasonchen> and restarting the emulator
Nov 13 19:02:59 <rangen> do i report API dox bug to android-developers list?
Nov 13 19:08:04 <rangen> i guess this answers my q: http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=8
Nov 13 19:13:08 <mafu> jasonchen, did the version number say anything to you in any way?
Nov 13 19:13:15 <mafu> I'm still stuck with hello world. :Þ
Nov 13 19:13:27 <d03boy> me too :(
Nov 13 19:13:57 <jasonchen> mafu, d03boy: we know adt works on 3.2 and 3.3.
Nov 13 19:14:05 <jasonchen> can you tell me more about what's going wrong?
Nov 13 19:14:33 <jasonchen> also, have you tried killing the emulator, doing and adb kill-server and also restarting eclipse?
Nov 13 19:14:33 <mafu> jasonchen, ADT is installed, everything seems to work. I can start the emulator from within Eclipse
Nov 13 19:14:37 <d03boy> when I first created the project everything worked fine
Nov 13 19:14:40 <mafu> The program just doesn't start
Nov 13 19:14:48 <mafu> jasonchen, all three I have tried
Nov 13 19:15:13 <d03boy> i think this problem started occurring when I refactored the package name
Nov 13 19:16:45 <mafu> jasonchen, I don't really know where to look for the problem, I'm not really into eclipse.
Nov 13 19:16:49 <jasonchen> mafu: if you go into Applications, does you app show up as installed?
Nov 13 19:17:07 <d03boy> mine doesnt
Nov 13 19:17:09 <jasonchen> mafu: Applications is the far left item in the emulator
Nov 13 19:17:42 <jasonchen> d03boy: ok, let's try this -- close eclipse, run adb kill-server and stop the emulator
Nov 13 19:18:06 <d03boy> done
Nov 13 19:18:23 <jasonchen> d03boy: did you say you're on Vista?
Nov 13 19:18:32 <d03boy> correct
Nov 13 19:18:45 <jasonchen> d03boy: check to see if there are any adb processes running
Nov 13 19:19:35 <d03boy> none
Nov 13 19:20:47 <jasonchen> ok, start the emulator from the command line
Nov 13 19:20:56 <d03boy> know how to do that offhand?
Nov 13 19:21:14 <d03boy> just "emulator" i assum
Nov 13 19:21:19 <jasonchen> yes
Nov 13 19:21:30 <jasonchen> do you have the tools directory in your path?
Nov 13 19:21:39 <d03boy> ya, its launching
Nov 13 19:21:41 <d03boy> k done
Nov 13 19:21:42 <jasonchen> ok
Nov 13 19:21:47 <jasonchen> now start eclipse
Nov 13 19:22:04 <mafu> jasonchen, sorry, just on the phone. I don't have the application installed. I'll now do the same you're telling d03boy
Nov 13 19:22:21 <d03boy> eclipse is up
Nov 13 19:22:58 <jasonchen> ok, now did you create a new project or import one of the samples for this app that you're trying to install?
Nov 13 19:23:07 <d03boy> i created my own
Nov 13 19:23:11 <jasonchen> ok
Nov 13 19:23:19 <d03boy> (and it did work the first time I tried it)
Nov 13 19:23:46 <jasonchen> is there a .apk file in the bin sub-directory of your project directory?
Nov 13 19:24:13 <d03boy> yes there is
Nov 13 19:24:52 <mafu> yes, here too
Nov 13 19:25:13 <jasonchen> ok, open a new terminal and cd into that directory
Nov 13 19:25:15 <guardian> evening
Nov 13 19:25:50 <d03boy> done
Nov 13 19:26:04 <mafu> done
Nov 13 19:26:18 <jasonchen> issue an adb install <name of file>
Nov 13 19:26:29 <jasonchen> guardian: hello
Nov 13 19:26:42 <xbit_> is the sourcecode for android.jar available?=
Nov 13 19:26:59 <d03boy> * daemon not running. starting it now * | * daemon still not running * | error: no device
Nov 13 19:27:00 <elbastardo> i downloaded the code from googles website , is this to use for a person that never did anykind of programming ?
Nov 13 19:27:14 <elbastardo> any doc on how to use it
Nov 13 19:27:43 <d03boy> elbastardo, the sdk comes with documentation
Nov 13 19:27:52 <elbastardo> d03boy: sweet
Nov 13 19:27:56 <mafu> d03boy, if I run adb start-server first, it runs. Else I get that one too
Nov 13 19:28:04 <jasonchen> d03boy: try it again; sometimes adb doesn't connect the first time
Nov 13 19:28:17 <d03boy> ah, now ti works
Nov 13 19:30:04 <mafu> d03boy, adb or the app?
Nov 13 19:30:21 <d03boy> adb
Nov 13 19:30:27 <mafu> Darn. :)
Nov 13 19:30:31 <mafu> jasonchen, any next step?
Nov 13 19:30:59 <jasonchen> mafu: did adb install not work?
Nov 13 19:31:19 <mafu> jasonchen, output:
Nov 13 19:31:21 <mafu> markus@iben:~/workspace/HelloAndroid/bin$ adb install HelloAndroid.apk
Nov 13 19:31:21 <mafu> 149 KB/s (12271 bytes in 0.080s)
Nov 13 19:31:30 <mafu> So I suppose so
Nov 13 19:31:40 <mafu> But it's not listed as an App
Nov 13 19:31:55 <jasonchen> hmmm
Nov 13 19:31:57 <mafu> It's supposed to be next to the Browser, Maps etc., right?
Nov 13 19:31:59 <d03boy> same here
Nov 13 19:32:00 <jasonchen> no
Nov 13 19:32:13 <jasonchen> you have to key over to the far left to the Application browser
Nov 13 19:32:21 <jasonchen> and if you select that, you should get a grid of all the apps installed
Nov 13 19:32:41 <mafu> Yeah, the browser is there too, that's what I meant. Sorry. :)
Nov 13 19:32:47 <mafu> Together with API demos
Nov 13 19:32:57 <mafu> But no hello world..
Nov 13 19:33:31 <jasonchen> mafu: do you have other emulator processes running?
Nov 13 19:33:43 <d03boy> same problem here. no other emus running
Nov 13 19:33:44 <mafu> Just the one
Nov 13 19:33:46 <jasonchen> also, what does your AndroidManifest.xml file look like?
Nov 13 19:34:03 <mafu> jasonchen, whatever was standard
Nov 13 19:34:15 <d03boy> http://pastebin.ca/772362
Nov 13 19:34:18 <mafu> jasonchen, I just changed the things described in the very basic Hello World guide
Nov 13 19:35:21 <mafu> My file is the same as his, except the name
Nov 13 19:35:27 <d03boy> and package
Nov 13 19:35:29 <jasonchen> d03boy: you're missing a second line in the AndroidManifest.xml file
Nov 13 19:35:52 <jasonchen> after  <action android:value="android.intent.action.MAIN" />
Nov 13 19:35:58 <jasonchen> there should be a second line
Nov 13 19:36:41 <jasonchen> (hold on, getting it for you)
Nov 13 19:36:59 <d03boy> hmm.. wonder what happened to it..
Nov 13 19:37:03 <jasonchen> <category android:value="android.intent.category.LAUNCHER"/>
Nov 13 19:37:17 <mafu> That could potentially explain a lot.
Nov 13 19:37:29 <jasonchen> that's the line that tells the Package Manager that this app should show up in the Launcher (i.e. Application browser)
Nov 13 19:37:48 <d03boy> mafu, does yours have that?
Nov 13 19:38:48 <mafu> d03boy, not until now
Nov 13 19:39:26 <jasonchen> oh, hmmm
Nov 13 19:39:32 <jasonchen> hold on, let me go check on something
Nov 13 19:39:33 <jasonchen> brb
Nov 13 19:39:50 <d03boy> it didnt necessarily fix my problem either
Nov 13 19:40:11 <d03boy> it launches a program called ircell, but its an old version that I dont even know if still exists
Nov 13 19:40:25 <d03boy> maybe I typoed some stuff
Nov 13 19:40:37 <d03boy> mafu, can you compare my <activity class=".IRCell" line with yours?
Nov 13 19:41:04 <mafu> d03boy, same except name
Nov 13 19:41:30 <mafu> d03boy, http://pastebin.ca/772374
Nov 13 19:43:22 <mafu> d03boy, did anything change for you?
Nov 13 19:43:47 <shapr> Is there any description of the DalvikVM or its bytecodes? I'd like to know if it's a better target than the JVM for functional languages like Haskell.
Nov 13 19:44:06 <d03boy> no
Nov 13 19:44:47 <shapr> It seems that it's register based instead of stack based, but I'd like to know much more than that :-)
Nov 13 19:45:24 <jasonchen> mafu, d03boy: ding, ding, ding.  you guys helped find a bug in ADT
Nov 13 19:45:50 <mafu> Hurra. :)
Nov 13 19:46:02 <d03boy> jasonchen, yay! we are special
Nov 13 19:46:08 <mafu> :D
Nov 13 19:46:15 * d03boy high-fives mafu
Nov 13 19:46:34 * mafu jumps in joy
Nov 13 19:46:36 <jasonchen> the line that i pointed out was missing should be there when you create a new project
Nov 13 19:46:36 <mafu> ;)
Nov 13 19:46:54 <mafu> jasonchen, it still doesn't work, though.
Nov 13 19:47:11 <d03boy> I do get an application icon, but its the wrong application.. right name adn stuff
Nov 13 19:47:14 <d03boy> just an old version
Nov 13 19:47:21 <mafu> I don't even get that.
Nov 13 19:47:21 <jasonchen> mafu: i think we can figure out what's not working in a sec.  let me file a bug about the missing info from AndroidManifest.xml and i'll get back to you
Nov 13 19:47:39 <mafu> jasonchen, sure!
Nov 13 19:50:35 <xbit_> i've tried following the example for playing media at http://code.google.com/android/toolbox/apis/media.html
Nov 13 19:50:58 <xbit_> but MediaPlayer.create returns null, and the docs aren't very helpful concering why
Nov 13 19:51:01 <xbit_> :S
Nov 13 19:52:25 <jasonchen> mafu: two things to try
Nov 13 19:52:51 <jasonchen> 1) go into adb shell and delete the .apk in the /data/apps directory
Nov 13 19:52:58 <jasonchen> and then do the adb install again
Nov 13 19:53:03 <mafu> ok
Nov 13 19:53:58 <mafu> jasonchen, that did the trick
Nov 13 19:54:04 <jasonchen> cool
Nov 13 19:54:17 <jasonchen> d03boy: did that also work for you?
Nov 13 19:54:19 <mafu> Is it not syncing properly, then?
Nov 13 19:54:21 <d03boy> how do you use adb to delete?
Nov 13 19:54:29 <mafu> d03boy, adb shell
Nov 13 19:54:35 <mafu> then cd data/app
Nov 13 19:54:40 <mafu> and rm appname.apk
Nov 13 19:54:44 <d03boy> ok thanks
Nov 13 19:56:02 <d03boy> ah its a linux shell. how nice
Nov 13 19:56:05 <jasonchen> yes
Nov 13 19:57:22 <d03boy> hm... still displaying an old version
Nov 13 19:58:08 <d03boy> almost as if eclipse isnt building my app after I've made changes
Nov 13 19:58:21 <mafu> jasonchen, I still find it a bit weird that it will not launch the App directly from Eclipse
Nov 13 19:58:46 <d03boy> mine launches from eclipse. but its the wrong version
Nov 13 19:58:52 <mafu> Hm.
Nov 13 19:59:04 <don-o> d03boy: is the change saved in the editor? sometimes i forget to do that
Nov 13 19:59:07 <d03boy> there has been a couple times when it didn tlaunch from eclipse
Nov 13 19:59:10 <d03boy> don-o, yep
Nov 13 19:59:57 <d03boy> even cleaned the project
Nov 13 20:00:18 <mafu> d03boy, I have to delete it from the adb shell every time I want to update it, but at least it works now.
Nov 13 20:01:27 <Essington> morrildl: now that android is using webkit, will there be an effort to get gears working in webkit again?
Nov 13 20:01:54 <Essington> offline web apps seem to be particularly useful on mobile devices
Nov 13 20:04:01 <d03boy> i seem to have found the cause of my problem... my build directories can't be deleted when I remove my project which means somethings holding on to them
Nov 13 20:04:09 <d03boy> which means they probably cant be updated either
Nov 13 20:05:34 <d03boy> too bad i have absolutely no clue what's holding them
Nov 13 20:06:30 <d03boy> maybe i have multiple instances running in eclipse..
Nov 13 20:08:49 <cutmasta> xbit, i also try to play an mp3
Nov 13 20:08:52 <cutmasta> but no success
Nov 13 20:08:54 <cutmasta> ;)
Nov 13 20:09:43 <mafu> d03boy, I'm trying some things from the troubleshooting page, but that only lead to crashing my eclipse
Nov 13 20:10:04 <d03boy> ah, apparently adb was still running and wouldnt let go of those dirs
Nov 13 20:10:17 * d03boy creates new project
Nov 13 20:11:29 <xbit> cutmasta: pure wav file works better
Nov 13 20:11:44 <cutmasta> xbit, mp3 does not work in the emu at all?
Nov 13 20:11:44 <xbit> but only marginally, at least MediaPlayer.create doesn't return a null object
Nov 13 20:11:55 <xbit> no sound though
Nov 13 20:12:00 <xbit> cutmasta: i guess not..
Nov 13 20:12:07 <cutmasta> hmm
Nov 13 20:12:11 <cutmasta> :(
Nov 13 20:13:39 <cutmasta> ten minutes under windows and eclipse dies 2 times
Nov 13 20:13:43 * cutmasta reboots
Nov 13 20:14:11 <d03boy> i dont think eclipse has ever died for me.. ive used it for about 4 years
Nov 13 20:14:58 <xbit> oh it dies easily if you don't give it enough memory ;)
Nov 13 20:15:14 <d03boy> ah, true.. i guess 2gb is enough
Nov 13 20:15:15 <xbit> and the europe fall release was even broken by default
Nov 13 20:18:16 <xbit> it takes shitlong just to allocate a mediaplayer with a 800KB wav file as well :o
Nov 13 20:18:29 <d03boy> making a new project just solved all my problems. woo
Nov 13 20:18:44 <d03boy> somethings was effed up with the permissions to the directory or something... which is strange because im on windows
Nov 13 20:18:50 <xbit> :)
Nov 13 20:19:10 <xbit> maybe some locks?
Nov 13 20:19:15 <d03boy> wait, I lied... it didnt fix anything
Nov 13 20:19:31 <d03boy> i think TextView is cracked out
Nov 13 20:19:51 <xbit> hehe
Nov 13 20:19:53 <xbit> cracked out?
Nov 13 20:20:18 <d03boy> well, I dont know.. the emulator says "Hello World, IRCell"
Nov 13 20:20:24 <d03boy> IRCell is my activity/project name
Nov 13 20:21:22 <d03boy> wow... i am retarded
Nov 13 20:21:31 <mafu> Congrats. ;)
Nov 13 20:21:39 <d03boy> by default, when you made an android project it makes this line: setContentView(R.layout.main);
Nov 13 20:21:51 <d03boy> i was creating a new Textview without changing that line.. go me
Nov 13 20:21:57 <mafu> :D
Nov 13 20:22:03 * d03boy hits himself in teh face
Nov 13 20:22:29 * jasonchen returns from lunch and is happy to find that d03boy's problem has been solved :-)
Nov 13 20:22:48 <d03boy> thanks for the help. i learned some stuff even though I didn't need to :)
Nov 13 20:23:37 <jasonchen> it's the best way to learn
Nov 13 20:23:39 <jasonchen> yw
Nov 13 20:29:18 <mafu> jasonchen, yeah, thanks.
Nov 13 20:29:37 <jasonchen> mafu: things are working for you too?
Nov 13 20:29:56 <mafu> jasonchen, not entirely. I still have to install the file manually
Nov 13 20:30:35 <jasonchen> mafu: building from within eclipse doesn't launch them in the emulator?
Nov 13 20:31:04 <mafu> When I start Eclipse, it says something about not being able to use port 8700, and playing around with DDMS (whatever it is :) ) got Eclipse to hang
Nov 13 20:31:06 <mafu> jasonchen, no
Nov 13 20:31:09 <jasonchen> mafu: if so, can you check your project config to ensure that the Android Launch is selected in your Run config
Nov 13 20:31:20 <mafu> jasonchen, it is.
Nov 13 20:31:30 <mafu> It launches the emulator and all
Nov 13 20:31:32 <mafu> Just not the app
Nov 13 20:32:56 <jasonchen> hmm
Nov 13 20:33:08 <cutmasta> xbit, now trying under linux playing sounds :)
Nov 13 20:33:09 <jasonchen> what happens if you run the app again once the emulator is up and running?
Nov 13 20:33:39 <mafu> Let me just check, I just restarted eclipse
Nov 13 20:33:48 <d03boy> so I need to put the /res/ and /assets/ folder in SVN?
Nov 13 20:34:37 <jasonchen> d03boy: if you're using SVN to manage your source, then likely yes
Nov 13 20:34:38 <mafu> d03boy, res are for your ressources, so I suppose so
Nov 13 20:34:55 * d03boy is new to working with sdks :)
Nov 13 20:35:31 <d03boy> and svn.. and everything in general
Nov 13 20:36:03 <mafu> Hehe.. Same here. All but svn.
Nov 13 20:37:15 <xbit> cutmasta: any luck? :)
Nov 13 20:37:30 <cutmasta> just wait a sec
Nov 13 20:38:19 <mafu> jasonchen, no, it still doesn't launch it
Nov 13 20:38:47 <mafu> Maybe I should try launching eclipse from the console and see if there's any output I can use?
Nov 13 20:41:53 <cutmasta> xbit, i currently try Playing Media via URL
Nov 13 20:42:14 <cutmasta> instead  of using a resource from the .apk
Nov 13 20:44:26 <xbit> ok, does that work better?
Nov 13 20:44:36 <xbit> i doubt that matters..
Nov 13 20:44:59 <cutmasta> i dont get any exception
Nov 13 20:45:09 <cutmasta> but dont hear anything
Nov 13 20:45:26 <cutmasta> i will check my logs if the emu rellly downloads the mp3 from the server
Nov 13 20:48:25 <mafu> jasonchen, any other ideas, or should I give up? :) I don't get what could be wrong.
Nov 13 20:50:01 <jasonchen> mafu: did you add the line <category android:value="android.intent.category.LAUNCHER"/> to your manifest xml file?
Nov 13 20:50:08 <mafu> jasonchen, yes
Nov 13 20:50:23 <mafu> jasonchen, maybe that file isn't installed automatically?
Nov 13 20:50:49 <jasonchen> no, that should get packaged up in the .apk
Nov 13 20:51:21 <cutmasta> xbit, there is not lpog file entry that the mediaplayer downloads the mp3
Nov 13 20:51:33 <cutmasta> i think mediaplayer is completly broken
Nov 13 20:52:10 <mafu> jasonchen, then I have no idea.
Nov 13 20:52:37 <jasonchen> mafu: hmm, i'm out of ideas at the moment
Nov 13 20:52:53 <mafu> jasonchen, well, thank you very much anyway. :)
Nov 13 20:52:57 <xbit> yes, it's pretty broken i think
Nov 13 20:53:11 <jasonchen> xbit: what are you trying to do w/ the MediaPlayer?
Nov 13 20:53:26 <xbit> just playing anything
Nov 13 20:53:48 <jasonchen> the emulator by default starts w/ audio output disabled
Nov 13 20:54:08 <xbit> oh
Nov 13 20:54:10 <jasonchen> so if you were expecting to hear anything, you should pass -useaudio from the command line
Nov 13 20:54:28 <jasonchen> now, if you're getting some sort of exception, that might be a different matter
Nov 13 20:54:45 <cutmasta> using this: MediaPlayer mp = MediaPlayer.create(context, R.raw.sound_file_1);
Nov 13 20:54:45 <cutmasta>     mp.prepare();
Nov 13 20:54:45 <cutmasta>     mp.start();
Nov 13 20:54:57 <cutmasta> it mp is always null
Nov 13 20:55:02 <xbit> mediaplayer.create returns null when i pass an mp3 as resource, wav works fine
Nov 13 20:55:55 <cutmasta> jasonchen, i tried playing via url
Nov 13 20:55:58 <cutmasta> but no error
Nov 13 20:56:17 <cutmasta> and mediaplayer did not made a request on the uri
Nov 13 20:57:09 * cutmasta tries now a wav
Nov 13 20:57:35 <morrildl> cutmasta: try this:
Nov 13 20:57:41 <morrildl> MediaPlayer player=new MediaPlayer();
Nov 13 20:57:42 <morrildl> player.setDataSource(url); // you also need to catch IO exceptions here
Nov 13 20:57:44 <morrildl> player.prepare();
Nov 13 20:57:45 <morrildl> player.start();
Nov 13 20:58:19 <xbit> -useaudio worked :)
Nov 13 20:58:22 <xbit> i have sound
Nov 13 20:58:30 <cutmasta> xbit, with mp3 or wav
Nov 13 20:58:36 <xbit> it's skipping like hell though :p
Nov 13 20:58:39 <xbit> wav
Nov 13 20:58:42 <cutmasta> morrildl, and url just a simple uri string , right
Nov 13 20:59:05 <xbit> as i said, mp3 returns mediaplayer=null so no point in trying to get sound there..
Nov 13 20:59:33 <morrildl> cutmasta: should be, yes
Nov 13 21:01:32 <cutmasta> morrildl, sorry for the question but, does https://<host>/file.mp3 can work? i mean is ssl support active in the emu
Nov 13 21:01:48 <morrildl> cutmasta: It should be, I think
Nov 13 21:01:58 * cutmasta compiles
Nov 13 21:03:04 <xbit> i mean..if it doesn't play mp3 from resources, why would it over http, particulary https?
Nov 13 21:03:05 <Essington> morrildl: now that it is known that android uses a webkit based browser, will there be any effort to get gears working in webkit ... again?
Nov 13 21:04:21 <cutmasta> doesnt work
Nov 13 21:04:26 <cutmasta> media player isnt null
Nov 13 21:04:30 <cutmasta> but does not do anything
Nov 13 21:05:14 <xbit> no, if you did new MediaPlayer() it's not null of course
Nov 13 21:06:16 <cutmasta> i try wav
Nov 13 21:07:01 <morrildl> cutmasta: Are you using -useaudio ?
Nov 13 21:07:17 <cutmasta> yes, i passed it via eclipse preferences
Nov 13 21:07:33 <morrildl> Try a WAV URI
Nov 13 21:08:30 <cutmasta> ok
Nov 13 21:09:39 <elbastardo> how easy will be for android to be used with Verizon (CDMA) or T-Mobile(GSNM) i mean for switching
Nov 13 21:10:10 <elbastardo> or ghone will have their own network
Nov 13 21:10:24 <elbastardo> like a competition for existing wireless phone comp
Nov 13 21:12:59 <puckett> Like when Google buys Sprint?
Nov 13 21:13:00 <cutmasta> morrildl, also does not work, but i hear sound if i click the louder buttons on the emu
Nov 13 21:13:28 <elbastardo> puckett: heh , i wish they did , cause i m using them :)
Nov 13 21:13:34 <morrildl> cutmasta: hmm, can you send me your code?  I'll try it in an emulator here
Nov 13 21:13:39 <cutmasta> sure
Nov 13 21:14:41 <elbastardo> cant wait for iphone users to install Android on their box :)
Nov 13 21:15:19 <elbastardo> and ditch the war that apple is carryin with firmware updates and bricking phones
Nov 13 21:16:48 <Essington> elbastardo: technically apple isn't bricking phones ... botched unlock code was bricking phones
Nov 13 21:17:58 <elbastardo> got it
Nov 13 21:18:15 <elbastardo> Essington: they did get hit with lawsuit
Nov 13 21:18:19 <elbastardo> or more then one
Nov 13 21:19:02 <Essington> in a country where anyone can sue anyone else for any reason .... sure
Nov 13 21:20:03 <cutmasta> morrildl, did you get it?
Nov 13 21:20:39 <morrildl> cutmasta: yeah
Nov 13 21:20:49 <morrildl> are you behind a proxy?
Nov 13 21:21:08 <cutmasta> no,why?
Nov 13 21:21:41 <cutmasta> i can play the sound file with mplayer without any problems
Nov 13 21:21:52 <cutmasta> mplayer <url>
Nov 13 21:26:53 <cutmasta> morrildl, no i see the GET from the PVPLAYER 18.07.00.02
Nov 13 21:26:59 <cutmasta> morrildl, now i see the GET from the PVPLAYER 18.07.00.02
Nov 13 21:27:19 <cutmasta> so now the problem must be on the sound setup here locally
Nov 13 21:27:41 <cutmasta> morrildl, thx anyway for testing
Nov 13 21:28:34 <morrildl> cutmasta: well, this should be working
Nov 13 21:28:58 <cutmasta> morrildl, did you tried in debug mode?
Nov 13 21:29:04 <cutmasta> or in normal mode
Nov 13 21:29:04 <morrildl> not yet
Nov 13 21:29:06 <morrildl> normal
Nov 13 21:29:19 * cutmasta in debug
Nov 13 21:29:21 <cutmasta> ;(
Nov 13 21:29:39 <morrildl> cutmasta: hmm, something is highly fishy here :)
Nov 13 21:34:02 <cutmasta> morrildl, last chance, i restart eclipse :)
Nov 13 21:34:18 <cutmasta> and kill all emu processes
Nov 13 21:34:30 <morrildl> cutmasta: doh
Nov 13 21:34:39 <morrildl> cutmasta: looks like the MediaPlayer might
Nov 13 21:34:40 <morrildl> you know
Nov 13 21:34:44 <morrildl> not actually be in the SDK image
Nov 13 21:34:58 <morrildl> cutmasta: hold on, I'm chasing it down :)
Nov 13 21:36:01 <cutmasta> morrildl, im using android_sdk_linux_m3-rc20a
Nov 13 21:41:15 <davidw> is there a way to include a text file in the application bundle?
Nov 13 21:42:30 <morrildl> davidw: what do you want to do with it?
Nov 13 21:42:41 <davidw> read it
Nov 13 21:42:42 <morrildl> davidw: you can put it in strings.xml if you want to access it from code
Nov 13 21:43:00 <morrildl> or you can put it in as a raw resource and access the bits if you want the whole file
Nov 13 21:43:10 <davidw> ok, just like a regular resource in java
Nov 13 21:43:22 <davidw> cool
Nov 13 21:46:16 <meteors> ah
Nov 13 21:46:16 <meteors> and so it begins
Nov 13 21:46:57 <matt_c> oh shit, meteors.
Nov 13 21:52:00 <morrildl> cutmasta: hmm
Nov 13 21:52:07 <morrildl> cutmasta: okay it looks like net URIs just aren't working
Nov 13 21:52:24 <morrildl> cutmasta: I will file a bug on this and get to the bottom of it -- do you mind if I forward your code internally?
Nov 13 21:53:28 <cutmasta> morrildl, just do what will help you setting the bug to "fixed" :)
Nov 13 21:53:28 <morrildl> cutmasta: in the meantime, use the new MediaPlayer() + setDataSource(String) version, but only refer to files on the device
Nov 13 21:53:48 <morrildl> cutmasta: for instance, setDataSource("/data/alert.wav");
Nov 13 21:54:11 <cutmasta> ./data/ is the res dir from the .apk
Nov 13 21:54:12 <cutmasta> ?
Nov 13 21:54:23 <morrildl> cutmasta: you can use "adb push <PC filename> <emulator filename>" to put files -- e.g. "adb put alert.wav /data/alert.wav"
Nov 13 21:54:28 <morrildl> er, sorry, adb push
Nov 13 21:54:30 <morrildl> not adb put
Nov 13 21:54:32 <cutmasta> ah
Nov 13 21:54:32 <cutmasta> ok
Nov 13 21:54:34 <cutmasta> thank
Nov 13 21:54:40 <morrildl> no, /data is just a writable partition basically
Nov 13 21:54:49 <morrildl> see if that works
Nov 13 21:54:50 <cutmasta> ok, seems clear to me
Nov 13 21:54:54 <cutmasta> i will try
Nov 13 21:55:25 <Lede> quick question: is the emulator supposed to be slow or is my system just to slow to run it (Pentium 4 2.4 Ghz, 512MB RAM)
Nov 13 21:56:31 <RP> Has anyone managed to rebuild the emulator binary successfully on Linux from source?
Nov 13 21:57:39 <tmccrary> Lede: Considering eclipse is pretty hefty on it's own, you may want to upgrade your ram. A CPU upgrade probably wouldn't hurt either
Nov 13 22:06:54 <trevarthan> Hello. Is there a UI Designer tool available yet?
Nov 13 22:07:58 <gpolo> are there plans to release androids source ? i mean, it says in the "future".. but how long is this "future" ?
Nov 13 22:09:01 <Lede> on april fools day, ha!
Nov 13 22:09:32 <Stephmw> gpolo: here's a piece of string
Nov 13 22:10:48 <cutmasta> morrildl, btw. your solution with loading data from the local filesystem works
Nov 13 22:10:56 <morrildl> cutmasta: okay, good
Nov 13 22:11:03 <morrildl> I've filed a bug
Nov 13 22:11:11 <cutmasta> ok,
Nov 13 22:11:20 <morrildl> It will probably get fixed in the next SDK drop
Nov 13 22:12:28 <cutmasta> just take your time
Nov 13 22:15:49 <morrildl> trevarthan: not to my knowledge
Nov 13 22:16:07 <trevarthan> ah darn.
Nov 13 22:16:12 <morrildl> cutmasta: I have no intention of taking my time, it's a bug and bugs want fixin' :)
Nov 13 22:16:55 <trevarthan> Anyone hiring for Android development yet? Sounds fun.
Nov 13 22:16:55 <cutmasta> hehe
Nov 13 22:17:42 <cutmasta> morrildl, btw. mp3 works great with local file
Nov 13 22:17:45 <cutmasta> :)
Nov 13 22:17:45 <d03boy> hiring? =P
Nov 13 22:21:43 <cutmasta> bye all and thx for your support, cu
Nov 13 22:21:57 <morrildl> cutmasta: see ya!
Nov 13 22:35:44 <davidw> morrildl, so - how do you include a text file, say foo.txt in classes.dex and / or subsequently the application
Nov 13 22:44:48 <soulreaper> davidw: in the res folder
Nov 13 22:44:55 <davidw> mmmm
Nov 13 22:47:17 <davidw>      [exec] invalid resource directory name: android/res/scripts
Nov 13 22:47:32 <davidw> it doesn't like that... it thinks it's junk to feed to the xml->java thing
Nov 13 22:47:36 <d03boy> i dont think resources is actually a directory
Nov 13 22:49:07 <davidw> it's not
Nov 13 22:50:52 <Lede> hmhm, how can you add a program to "Applications" (the directory which also includes the "API Demos" directory)
Nov 13 22:51:30 <Lede> doing `adb install' seems to only add a entry to "package browser" under "Dev tools"
Nov 13 22:58:18 <morrildl> davidw
Nov 13 22:58:20 <morrildl> oops
Nov 13 22:58:31 <morrildl> davidw: put your text file in res/raw/whatever.txt
Nov 13 22:58:37 <davidw> aha!
Nov 13 22:58:38 <morrildl> Then do this:
Nov 13 22:58:42 <morrildl>         TextView tv = new TextView(this);
Nov 13 22:58:43 <morrildl>         InputStream is = getResources().openRawResource(R.raw.foo);
Nov 13 22:58:53 <morrildl> well, skip the textview part :)
Nov 13 22:58:56 <morrildl> copied 1 line too many
Nov 13 22:58:59 <davidw> muchas gracias!
Nov 13 22:59:16 <morrildl> np
Nov 13 22:59:23 <morrildl> er
Nov 13 22:59:31 <morrildl> also that'll be R.raw.whatever in the example I gave
Nov 13 22:59:40 <morrildl> a file in res/raw/foo.txt -> R.raw.foo
Nov 13 22:59:47 <morrildl> res/raw/whatever.txt -> R.raw.whatever
Nov 13 22:59:48 <morrildl> etc
Nov 13 23:01:14 <davidw> can they have different endings? like .py or .hcl or .rb or whatever?
Nov 13 23:07:34 <morrildl> davidw: good question, I haven't tried that :)
Nov 13 23:07:50 <davidw> I'll let you know how it goes
Nov 13 23:07:51 * morrildl wonders if davidw is trying to load .py files as text so he can pass them to e.g. Jython
Nov 13 23:08:12 <davidw> Hecl, but yeah, that's the idea
Nov 13 23:08:13 * morrildl wishes he'd thought of that
Nov 13 23:08:19 <parti> looks like you cant : Resource entry a is already defined
Nov 13 23:08:33 <davidw> that's how Hecl works on j2me
Nov 13 23:09:15 <davidw> I wrote a second tool that replaces the script.hcl file on the fly, so to speak, so you don't even have to redo the jar, really
Nov 13 23:14:53 <davidw> seems to work even with the .hcl extension
Nov 13 23:16:30 <Lede> so anyone have a idea how to launch a program from withing the emulator?
Nov 13 23:16:40 <d03boy> go to Applications
Nov 13 23:16:54 <Lede> my program isnt there
Nov 13 23:17:55 <rwhitby> morning
Nov 13 23:19:37 <jasonchen_> Lede: you're likely being bitten by a bug in ADT
Nov 13 23:20:00 <jasonchen> check your AndroidManifest.xml
Nov 13 23:21:36 <jasonchen> is line 8 in the file blank?
Nov 13 23:21:53 <Lede> jasonchen: i already edited it
Nov 13 23:21:57 <Lede> i added  <category android:value="android.intent.category.LAUNCHER"/>
Nov 13 23:22:38 <jasonchen> hmm, ok
Nov 13 23:22:56 <jasonchen> did you reinstall your app?
Nov 13 23:23:18 <Lede> yes with `adb install'
Nov 13 23:23:52 <jasonchen> hmmm
Nov 13 23:24:10 <jasonchen> you might try dropping into adb shell and deleting the app first
Nov 13 23:24:43 <jasonchen> and then restarting the emulator to see if that doesn't help
Nov 13 23:26:19 <pandora--> just a quick question... are the xml files for Views translated runtime or compile time?
Nov 13 23:27:15 <jasonchen> pandora--: compile time
Nov 13 23:27:38 <jasonchen> parsed at compile time and interpreted at run-time
Nov 13 23:28:28 <parti> anyone managed to land with lunar lander on hard? :d
Nov 13 23:29:33 <pandora--> gotcha
Nov 13 23:29:33 <d03boy> hi kong
Nov 13 23:29:40 <koovaj> wassup
Nov 13 23:34:42 <davidw> ok... it loads and executes an 'exit' command that calls 'finish()'...good enough for now.
Nov 13 23:40:14 <Lede> jasonchen: it works now
Nov 13 23:40:19 <Lede> jasonchen: i have no idea why
Nov 13 23:40:45 <jasonchen> Lede: odd.  what steps did you take?
Nov 13 23:41:10 <Lede> jasonchen: i got bored and started to edit icon.png and then tried it again haha!
Nov 13 23:41:49 <Lede> recompile, reinstall, restart emu that is
Nov 13 23:42:27 <jasonchen> got it
Nov 14 00:09:12 <davidw> woohoo! I can look up resources from Hecl... sleep time for sure now
Nov 14 00:11:00 * Lede ->sleep();
Nov 14 00:11:33 <davidw> good plan...snzzz
Nov 14 00:18:11 <pandora--> anyone thought of using javafx on android?
Nov 14 00:18:29 <pandora--> might be nice to do some of the graphics work in FX
Nov 14 00:20:03 <pandora--> though, that's also a compile-time translation to UI... maybe that wouldn't mix so well
Nov 14 00:21:28 <ozarka> pandora--: I think you have your 25k project.
Nov 14 00:21:39 <ozarka> Port javaFX to android.
Nov 14 00:22:03 <pandora--> hehehe i dont think so
Nov 14 00:22:16 <pandora--> i already have a nice uber-flexible UI framework
Nov 14 00:22:19 <ozarka> Have you tried to port any of your j2me apps yet?
Nov 14 00:22:22 <pandora--> and I don't do it compile time
Nov 14 00:22:39 <pandora--> my UI is driven from XML in runtime, which means the app can be updated on the fly with new UIs
Nov 14 00:22:40 <pandora--> :-D
Nov 14 00:23:03 <ozarka> Doesn't Android have xml driven ui?
Nov 14 00:23:08 <pandora--> compile time though
Nov 14 00:23:10 <pandora--> afaik
Nov 14 00:23:14 <ozarka> :-(
Nov 14 00:23:17 <pandora--> I'd love to port Zannel to android
Nov 14 00:23:23 <pandora--> I will
Nov 14 00:23:28 <pandora--> gotta get this rev. done though
Nov 14 00:23:35 <pandora--> then... hell why not?
Nov 14 00:23:41 <ozarka> Is that the synclast you're always talking about?  The xml UI framework?
Nov 14 00:24:03 <pandora--> I built a dynamic XML->UI framework on top of synclast
Nov 14 00:24:08 <pandora--> as the underlying toolkit
Nov 14 00:24:35 <pandora--> its all part of my Mobile Application framework thats going opensource next year, Claybox
Nov 14 00:24:53 <ozarka> Yeah.  I work in BB and I wanted to build a XML->UI framework for my app, but no one was interested in supporting my little project.
Nov 14 00:24:58 <pandora--> well, not "my", but Zannel's
Nov 14 00:25:06 <pandora--> I don't own it, I just wrote it :-P
Nov 14 00:25:09 <d03boy> BB is poopy
Nov 14 00:25:17 <pandora--> BB?
Nov 14 00:25:23 <ozarka> poopy pays the bills :-)
Nov 14 00:25:28 <ozarka> BB == Blackberry
Nov 14 00:25:30 <pandora--> oh oh
Nov 14 00:25:31 <pandora--> heheh
Nov 14 00:25:44 <pandora--> zannel is != poopy, and does pay the bills
Nov 14 00:25:45 <pandora--> w00000t
Nov 14 00:25:56 <ozarka> Once you've done JavaScript for money, you realize you'll do anything for money.
Nov 14 00:26:01 <pandora--> LOL
Nov 14 00:26:03 <ozarka> BB isn't so bad by comparison.
Nov 14 00:27:19 <ozarka> I'll watch for the Claybox announcement.
Nov 14 00:27:32 <ozarka> Do you guys have a vaporware page yet?
Nov 14 00:27:33 <pandora--> I can't wait to get it out to the world :)
Nov 14 00:27:51 <pandora--> well, our web and wap products launched months ago
Nov 14 00:27:54 <pandora--> those are live
Nov 14 00:28:13 <pandora--> our mobile application (without giving any details of what it is away) is very close to launching
Nov 14 00:28:30 <pandora--> we dont have an official announcment of it on our site though
Nov 14 00:28:37 <ozarka> Claybox isn't affiliated with HOMBRE, is it?
Nov 14 00:28:38 <ozarka> http://www.gethombre.com/
Nov 14 00:28:41 <pandora--> but, lots of carriers are waiting for it
Nov 14 00:28:50 <pandora--> no, not in any way
Nov 14 00:28:59 <pandora--> Claybox is purely Zannel property
Nov 14 00:29:03 <ozarka> You guys are doing it wrong.  You put up a web site with screen shots, then you start work on the framework.
Nov 14 00:29:06 <pandora--> LOL
Nov 14 00:29:11 <pandora--> my bad.
Nov 14 00:29:21 <pandora--> this is why i'm an engineer and not in marketing ;)
Nov 14 00:29:27 <ozarka> HOMBRE has the business model down.  Lots of screen shots.
Nov 14 00:29:44 <pandora--> I would love to show screenshots
Nov 14 00:30:05 <pandora--> app is code complete. finishing QA... shh.
Nov 14 00:30:20 <ozarka> Very cool.
Nov 14 00:30:26 <pandora--> but as i said, Zannel WAP and Zannel Web are live and exploding
Nov 14 00:30:32 <pandora--> its kinda crazy
Nov 14 00:30:46 <ozarka> Yeah.  I looked at the zannel web wap stuff earlier.
Nov 14 00:31:19 <pandora--> the blue version or the yellow version?
Nov 14 00:31:38 <ozarka> Wow.  I even created an account.
Nov 14 00:31:57 <ozarka> Looking at my browser, the log is blue
Nov 14 00:32:03 <pandora--> gotcha
Nov 14 00:32:05 <ozarka> "Zannel (beta)"
Nov 14 00:32:10 <pandora--> yellow version is way back :)
Nov 14 00:33:00 <ozarka> Did you work on the web or wap stuff?
Nov 14 00:33:00 <pandora--> oh yeah.. you did join
Nov 14 00:33:26 <pandora--> I volunteered on some web stuff for a short while to help out, but my sole purpose at zannel is j2me
Nov 14 00:34:12 <ozarka> Do you have an army of j2me developers with you?
Nov 14 00:34:21 <ozarka> I work alone on my project.
Nov 14 00:34:41 <pandora--> thats probably hush hush :)
Nov 14 00:34:50 <pandora--> but i'm the lead
Nov 14 00:34:54 <pandora--> if that means anything
Nov 14 00:35:12 <ozarka> What I mean to say, is that there are [NDA] developers on my team.
Nov 14 00:35:30 <ozarka> I don't think legal for my company spends a lot of time in IRC.
Nov 14 00:36:11 <pandora--> haha
Nov 14 00:36:31 <ozarka> OK.  I'm going home.  Good night.
Nov 14 00:36:38 <pandora--> catch ya later
Nov 14 00:37:15 <Stephmw> pandora--: the lead gets to spend a bit of quality time on irc :D
Nov 14 00:37:40 <pandora--> we're a very IRC friendly company
Nov 14 00:38:16 <pandora--> there's a handful of engineers and even founders that are always in IRC
Nov 14 00:38:34 <d03boy> thats cool. can i work there?
Nov 14 00:38:52 <pandora--> plus while i've been chatting here, i closed out a major bug fix. so it's all good. haha
Nov 14 00:38:58 <pandora--> d03boy: in CA?
Nov 14 00:39:21 <d03boy> i dont know. where do you work
Nov 14 00:39:42 <d03boy> i want to work where everyone's on irc
Nov 14 00:39:59 <pandora--> well, Zannel is based in san francisco
Nov 14 00:40:14 <pandora--> though I (and some other engineers) live in los angeles
Nov 14 00:40:38 <d03boy> ive been to LA once.. worst traffic on a friday night
Nov 14 00:40:52 <pandora--> worst traffic on a * night
Nov 14 00:41:06 <rwhitby> anyone know of a good armel cross compiler integration into eclipse?  I want to set up the toolchain on windows to cross-compile native C/C++ apps to run on the emulator.  I can do it in the shell, but looking for eclipse integration (part of my learning eclipse task).
Nov 14 00:41:09 <pandora--> thats why i usually work from home lol
Nov 14 00:41:18 * pandora-- is coding on his couch right now
Nov 14 00:41:32 <pandora--> traffic blows in LA
Nov 14 00:41:44 <rwhitby> d03boy: at my company we use IRC internally
Nov 14 00:41:59 <rwhitby> (as well as externally)
Nov 14 00:42:00 <tlockney> rwhitby: don't know about arm, but I saw some docs on using CDT with the gcc-avr stuff, so I would assume it's probably similar
Nov 14 00:42:45 * tlockney is coding in his recliner right now
Nov 14 00:42:57 <rwhitby> tlockney: ah, good point.  I'll look into the embedded board support, but most of them I've seen previously require you to install special versions of CDT, rather than integrating nicely into an existing eclipse CDT installation.
Nov 14 00:42:59 <pandora--> tlockney: niiiice
Nov 14 00:43:17 <pandora--> i like my couch/office/wii-music setup
Nov 14 00:43:30 * pandora-- listening to Tool on the Wii
Nov 14 00:43:32 <tlockney> CDT will just use your own makefile if you tell it to
Nov 14 00:44:01 <tlockney> pandora--: agreed. I'm in Portland, so traffic wouldn't be as bad, but working from home still beats driving/busing/biking to the office
Nov 14 00:44:31 <pandora--> if I could bike/bus/public-transport to the office I would
Nov 14 00:44:42 <pandora--> i usually go into the office 1-2 days a week
Nov 14 00:45:01 <tlockney> I'm in like the one part of portland that *doesn't* have good public transport
Nov 14 00:45:13 <pandora--> haha, well, thats ALL of los angeles
Nov 14 00:45:14 <tlockney> but my office is in Austin, anyway, so... ;)
Nov 14 00:45:22 <pandora--> haha
Nov 14 00:45:31 <tlockney> "office", I should say
Nov 14 00:48:30 <tlockney> is anyone else finding the android google group to have a very high degree of noise?
Nov 14 00:51:58 <tlockney> guess it's just me then
Nov 14 00:52:20 <pandora--> heh
Nov 14 00:53:44 <tlockney> it wouldn't be so frustrating, but it doesn't look like the google devs are really participating much yet
Nov 14 00:53:54 <tlockney> that or they're just overwhelmed (strong possibility)
Nov 14 00:55:07 <pandora--> they're all busy selling their stock and buying small planets
Nov 14 00:55:09 <pandora--> ;)
Nov 14 00:56:09 <tlockney> I thought most of the people with great option packages had left already =)
Nov 14 00:56:20 <ogunnaike> hopefully they're busy implementing a scripting language for android (such as scheme)
Nov 14 00:56:56 <d03boy> so how far behind am I on the $10mil if I've only got a hello world program so far?
Nov 14 00:57:03 <don-o> d03boy: not too far
Nov 14 00:57:15 <tlockney> don-o: good to see you here! ;~)
Nov 14 00:57:22 <don-o> tlockney: you too :)
Nov 14 00:57:39 <tlockney> wonder how many other pdx folks are around
Nov 14 00:57:54 <tlockney> might have to start a pdxandroid group
Nov 14 00:57:55 <don-o> i cant resist the mobile space. even if it is quasi-opensource :)
Nov 14 00:58:22 <don-o> tlockney: good idea. or maybe mix it in with dorkbot?
Nov 14 00:58:41 <d03boy> pdx?
Nov 14 00:58:44 <pandora--> don-o: same here man.
Nov 14 00:58:48 <tlockney> pdx=portland
Nov 14 00:58:58 <d03boy> is that the airport code?
Nov 14 00:59:06 <pandora--> don-o: i'm excited just in a cool platform in mobilespace like this
Nov 14 00:59:21 <pandora--> don-o: you're an active mobile-coder of sorts?
Nov 14 00:59:44 <tlockney> d03boy: yep
Nov 14 00:59:52 <tlockney> it's used for everything now, though
Nov 14 01:00:20 <tlockney> pdx.rb (portland ruby brigade), pdx.py (python UG), dorkbotPDX (local dorkbot group), etc.
Nov 14 01:00:41 <d03boy> mlk.rb :P
Nov 14 01:01:16 <morrildl> tlockney: heh, it's mostly just because we don't have enough time to respond :)
Nov 14 01:01:36 <morrildl> tlockney: I'm still like the #3 poster on there -- there's just so many threads I'm lost in the noise :)
Nov 14 01:01:44 <tlockney> morrildl: you one of the google devs? (or perhaps better not give that info away in here, eh? ;~)
Nov 14 01:02:06 <tlockney> morrildl: I figured as much, really
Nov 14 01:02:08 <d03boy> ofcourse he is
Nov 14 01:02:36 <tlockney> at least you seem to agree about the noise
Nov 14 01:02:47 <tlockney> ;~)
Nov 14 01:03:50 <morrildl> gotta run, mtg :)
Nov 14 01:03:54 <tlockney> don-o: us dorkbot types are too busy having fun with arduinos to focus on anything else, heh
Nov 14 01:05:26 <tlockney> wow, sure hope the android devs aren't on pacific time... 5pm mtgs suck
Nov 14 01:06:04 <d03boy> unless there is food
Nov 14 01:07:32 <troseph> Can it run on Nokia 770s? Or e62?
Nov 14 01:09:09 <rwhitby> tlockney: I'm finding a low S/N ratio on the android-developers list - they need an android-discussion list first, and then bring in the developers list later.
Nov 14 01:09:15 <ogunnaike> or a hp 49G+?
Nov 14 01:09:42 <d03boy> rwhitby, i really dont see many updates. i must bemissing all the fun?
Nov 14 01:09:56 <don-o> pandora--: more of a mobile-dev wanna be. ive been in the openmoko camp for the last year.
Nov 14 01:10:05 <rwhitby> d03boy: you only need to subscribe to the developers blog for the updates
Nov 14 01:12:06 <tlockney> well, even on the development side, there's far too many of the "why doesn't my hello android app work" type questions
Nov 14 01:12:31 <tlockney> maybe they just need to keep adding to the FAQ and agressively point folks there
Nov 14 01:13:06 <d03boy> point folks where? im assuming the google group?
Nov 14 01:13:16 <tlockney> point folks to the FAQ
Nov 14 01:13:24 <d03boy> oh, misread
Nov 14 01:13:38 <tlockney> as the same (well, very similar) questions keep coming back up
Nov 14 01:16:46 <tlockney> well, time to call it a day... back to hack later, I hope =)
Nov 14 01:18:22 <koovaj> go Android
Nov 14 01:19:37 <d03boy> go kong!
Nov 14 01:19:44 <d03boy> hey kong, did you get it set up?
Nov 14 02:14:03 <jrsharp_> anyone know how soon we can get our hands on a real android phone?
Nov 14 02:14:10 <d03boy> 2008
Nov 14 02:14:25 <d03boy> the latter half
Nov 14 02:14:35 <jrsharp_> yeah? that long, eh?
Nov 14 02:14:52 <Dralspire> Yeah, 2008 is what I read, too
Nov 14 02:15:24 <Dralspire> I was a bit surprised that Nokia wasn't in the Open Handset Alliance
Nov 14 02:15:29 <jrsharp_> hmm...  well, that makes sense, I suppose
Nov 14 02:15:37 <jrsharp_> this is a complex initiative
Nov 14 02:16:07 <jrsharp_> but now that we have the sdk, I'm really anxious to see the apps on a real device
Nov 14 02:16:35 <Dralspire> of course
Nov 14 02:17:37 <Dralspire> I kinda wish they didn't do this core/optional APIs ... I can see it now, "whoops, your device doesn't support this one optional API ... sux to be you, but you are out of luck"
Nov 14 02:18:09 <jrsharp_> GPS, accelerometer, etc.
Nov 14 02:18:10 <jrsharp_> ?
Nov 14 02:19:01 <Dralspire> yeah, location / media / 3d graphics
Nov 14 02:19:06 <d03boy> maybe they wnat to make people support it
Nov 14 02:20:00 <jrsharp_> I would guess it's just too impractical to demand everyone implement all of that stuff
Nov 14 02:20:45 <d03boy> why?
Nov 14 02:21:28 <jrsharp_> well, there is still a demand for less-smart smartphones ;)
Nov 14 02:21:50 <jrsharp_> and Google wants to have Android on as many devices as possible, right?
Nov 14 02:21:59 <rwhitby> tlockney: http://www.freertos.org/portLM3Sxxxx_Eclipse.html looks like some good instructions for using Sourcery G++ Lite with standard Eclipse Europa.
Nov 14 02:21:59 <d03boy> if anything, this should help drive the price down
Nov 14 02:22:07 <Dralspire> yeah, but the people that buy those are your parents that call you in the middle of the night in hope of map assistance
Nov 14 02:22:17 <jrsharp_> hehe
Nov 14 02:24:42 <Dralspire> lmao and just to say it, any "smart" app for my parents need to consist of just on button :D
Nov 14 02:24:55 <Dralspire> *one button
Nov 14 02:41:33 <d03boy> but for every button you add you have 2^(n+1) options.. it can get crazy1231
Nov 14 02:42:16 <BigCanOfTuna> While not directly realted to android, I am hoping someone can help me out....Is there a well known SMS/Text Message service out there that provides a solid API for sending out messages via my application?
Nov 14 02:43:02 <don-o> if an Internet server is sending the txt message, that would save the sender the SMS fee, right?
Nov 14 02:50:21 <linux_galore> is this the room for making kill-bots as part of the robot domination program
Nov 14 02:50:31 <linux_galore> :-P
Nov 14 02:50:54 <linux_galore> s/room/channel
Nov 14 02:54:04 <Dralspire> hehe
Nov 14 02:58:57 <tlockney> rwhitby: thanks for the link!
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Nov 14 02:59:57 2007