**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Nov 26 02:59:57 2007 Nov 26 02:59:59 and any method that takes TimerTask (from a .NET/VS perspective) is downright nasty Nov 26 03:06:35 oh, and inner classes along with abstract classes that refuse to implement an overridable constructor make me want to kill puppies and small woodland creatures Nov 26 03:17:54 is there anyway to get system.out to actually print to the fucking console? Nov 26 03:18:32 what console :) Nov 26 03:18:36 i havent tried, but there is some android util method to log Nov 26 03:18:48 log to where? STDOUT? Nov 26 03:19:11 where can i find the fucking console .. are there pictures? Nov 26 03:22:42 adb is the fluxbox console to the emulator. Just num the emu and them command line into it... with "adb shell" Nov 26 03:23:35 hmm, where in the hell is this margin coming from in the ListActivity? Nov 26 03:23:53 the left and right margins. i think it's 10px. Nov 26 03:24:11 probably in the layout xml file Nov 26 03:24:21 it must be a default somewhere. Nov 26 03:24:23 "10dip" Nov 26 03:24:24 because i did not specify one. Nov 26 03:26:07 did you copy the layout from an example? Nov 26 03:26:22 i'm way beyond examples at this point, but yeah, initially. Nov 26 03:26:56 in fact, it's similar to the first one listed here: file:///usr/local/lib/android/docs/reference/android/app/ListActivity.html Nov 26 03:26:58 look for a "10dip" on the root of the project directory Nov 26 03:27:03 although i've updated mine to actually work, of course. Nov 26 03:27:06 you have to specify margins for ListViews using ViewGroup because lists don't have margin on their own Nov 26 03:27:09 only padding Nov 26 03:27:35 ViewGroup.MarginLayoutParams Nov 26 03:27:53 haavi: well, it's got eitehr margins or padding, i can't tell from this layout. it seems like they default to have a 10 pixel pad on the left and right of each list row. Nov 26 03:28:17 I had the same problem with one of my lists Nov 26 03:28:29 I did: Nov 26 03:28:44 ViewGroup.MarginLayoutParams groupParams = new ViewGroup.MarginLayoutParams( Nov 26 03:28:44 LayoutParams.FILL_PARENT, LayoutParams.WRAP_CONTENT); Nov 26 03:28:44 groupParams.setMargins(0, 1, 0, 1); Nov 26 03:28:44 this.setLayoutParams(groupParams); Nov 26 03:28:45 its in your layout... Nov 26 03:29:06 ad0le: i promise you, my layout has no explicit margins or padding. Nov 26 03:29:53 that actually specified a "border" above and below each ListView since the background had a different background color than my list items Nov 26 03:32:01 i don't think that applies Nov 26 03:32:09 i've got something akin to Nov 26 03:32:22 Nov 26 03:33:43 the TextView is lined up right against the edge of the display on the left Nov 26 03:33:48 the ListView, however, has each row about 10px in. Nov 26 03:34:04 none of the 3 views here have explicit layouts or padding, so where does it come from? Nov 26 03:34:07 yea it's some default margin Nov 26 03:36:19 if you setLayoutParams for ViewGroup like above in the View that you return from getView that margin will disappear Nov 26 03:36:34 It did for me at least Nov 26 03:37:25 and setMargin takes (left, top, right, bottom) Nov 26 03:37:34 quite unlike CSS shorthand syntax Nov 26 03:38:32 Hi hamsters and hamsterettes :D Nov 26 03:38:37 hello! Nov 26 03:39:41 ok, i'll try it. i specified it in the XML file, but i can manipulate it after the fact... Nov 26 03:44:18 this._timer.schedule(new TimerTask(){ Nov 26 03:44:19 public void run(){ Nov 26 03:44:19 TrackStatsWebSender tsws = new TrackStatsWebSender(TrackStatsDaemon.this,"WebSenderThread"); Nov 26 03:44:19 tsws.start(); Nov 26 03:44:19 } Nov 26 03:44:19 }, 0, this._acctInfo.getPollingInterval()); Nov 26 03:44:32 geez, sorry Nov 26 03:44:34 my bad Nov 26 03:56:18 haavi: Hmm, I got a ClassCastException? Nov 26 03:59:50 haha Nov 26 03:59:55 i just tried to do udp communication and i got a UnsatisfiedLinkError Nov 26 04:00:37 I got tons of errors with SSL via android.net Nov 26 04:04:22 looks like nio is left unimplemented Nov 26 04:04:41 what a shame Nov 26 04:07:54 hrmph Nov 26 04:08:07 i wonder if they're going to release an updated version of the andriod SDK soon that has nio implemented Nov 26 04:08:23 Is there a bug with ListActivity and it remembering what the current selected item is? Nov 26 04:08:51 i can see it saving state in the bundle, but when I come back to it, it's always at the first item Nov 26 05:48:04 how do I take a screenshot on the simulator? Nov 26 06:03:15 in the DDMS view in eclipse there is a dropdown option "take screenshot"... I've never tested it though! Nov 26 06:05:16 actually, the option is "Screen Capture"... so I assume that's what it does ;) Nov 26 06:18:24 Hey all Nov 26 06:18:34 Is there a way to emulate GPS? Nov 26 06:23:46 Location.getLatitude() returning 0.0 is a bit of a problem :D Nov 26 06:24:50 crippy-boy, if I were you I'd just use a static lat and long for testing... grab one via maps.google.com : ) Nov 26 06:25:18 Nah, static won't work, I need to emulate GPS since the app I'm writing depends on GPS. Nov 26 06:25:40 Thanks for the suggestion though. Nov 26 06:26:46 I might just write a function that returns random long/lat though just for testing if emulating it isn't possible. Nov 26 06:27:44 I'm not even sure if what I'm trying will work or even be practical but it's worth a try. Nov 26 06:30:02 wasn't there some file where you could but coordinates for gps.. I have vague feeling that I read it somewhere Nov 26 07:45:06 anyone know how much of the current media apis are supported by the current emulator? Nov 26 07:45:18 is audio recording supported? Nov 26 08:15:51 'morning, 'droids Nov 26 08:17:19 morning Nov 26 08:35:40 * Dralspire giggles Nov 26 08:35:44 Morning :-) Nov 26 08:39:28 hola Dralspire :) Nov 26 08:40:20 Hehe komo estaz!? Nov 26 08:42:06 muccho Bien, gracias Nov 26 08:42:21 ;) Nov 26 08:43:19 Y tĂș ? Nov 26 08:43:50 * Dralspire giggles and holds up the "Bien" card :D Nov 26 08:44:17 hehe Nov 26 09:14:08 oh boy..snow again Nov 26 09:20:25 * Dralspire giggles about the snow news in Florida Nov 26 10:07:17 Huomenta! Nov 26 11:53:01 hi * Nov 26 13:51:36 hello, anyone for help? Nov 26 13:52:24 * andreaf too Nov 26 13:58:42 * bengl is here, and can possibly help Nov 26 14:10:23 ask away, someone might know Nov 26 14:15:15 ok, i'm looking for a stupid example for "screen changing" in an android application Nov 26 14:15:37 a screen with a button, I press the button and go to another screen Nov 26 14:15:54 I read the doc on google web site but is quite odd for me Nov 26 14:16:49 have checked these tutorials http://code.google.com/android/intro/tutorial.html Nov 26 14:16:58 good way to start android development Nov 26 14:18:55 maybe someone can help me:) I want to display the menu when I press a button of my program. I've written this class http://pastebin.com/d12fa4134 Nov 26 14:19:25 where menu.class is a public class Nov 26 14:19:51 but it doesn't work Nov 26 14:21:18 anyone can help? Nov 26 14:24:44 ..? Nov 26 14:26:40 why are you using menu.class Nov 26 14:27:07 dont you have to use the Class object? Nov 26 14:27:26 I called it menu Nov 26 14:27:59 what is the .class for then? Nov 26 14:29:50 mmh.. Nov 26 14:29:56 did you create a "Class" object? Nov 26 14:30:09 or is "menu.class" the filename for your class? Nov 26 14:31:06 my class is public class menu extends Activity Nov 26 14:31:29 and the class object is (Menu menu) Nov 26 14:32:51 i would suggest you find an example of doing this, i dont know off the top of my head Nov 26 14:32:55 i have to leave for class, good luck Nov 26 14:33:06 i can tell that you're doing it wrong though Nov 26 14:33:15 ok. Nov 26 14:34:08 but I didn't find examples of this:/ Nov 26 14:34:22 there are tons of examples Nov 26 14:34:31 anddev.org might have something Nov 26 14:34:49 not about calling the menu from a button :/ Nov 26 14:35:01 oh, hrm.. not sure Nov 26 14:36:04 d03boy, I'll take a look Nov 26 14:38:04 bas0, look at the notepad app for how to do menus Nov 26 14:38:13 menu isn't a class, it's an interface Nov 26 14:43:32 davidw, but I make some errors when I call it from a button of my app Nov 26 15:00:58 oops Nov 26 15:08:47 * Stephmw comforts bas0 Nov 26 15:09:01 :( Nov 26 16:11:54 yawn Nov 26 16:12:18 disassembling LinearLayout.class actually did end up answering a lot of my questions about how to implement your own custom layout :) Nov 26 16:12:50 neat :) Nov 26 16:17:18 so you've figured out how to align your TextViews now? Nov 26 16:17:37 yes, indeed. Nov 26 16:17:47 it is very simple to override ViewGroup, once you know the magic. Nov 26 16:17:57 ok :) Nov 26 16:18:16 and that left margin problem? Nov 26 16:18:21 did you manage to get rid of that? Nov 26 16:18:25 the left margin problem i still have :) Nov 26 16:18:33 ok :/ Nov 26 16:19:01 all i had to do for the custom viewgroup, btw, was override onLayout as I thought and call .layout on my two children manually using the .getMeasuredWidth/Height methods of each, and myself. Nov 26 16:19:03 but if you override ViewGroup can't you just set it there? Nov 26 16:19:18 that is, the right-hanging label is positioned at this.getMeasuredWidth() - mDate.getMeasuredWidth() Nov 26 16:19:30 yay for decompiling :D (in this context its decompiling not disassembling) Nov 26 16:19:52 aha Nov 26 16:19:55 although this is a good argument to nudge them to release the real source soon Nov 26 16:20:04 and in onMeasure, you just call child.measure(getChildMeasureSpec(...), ...) then this.setMeasuredDimension(...) to something that makes sense. Nov 26 16:20:52 I could improve my implementation a lot for flexibility, but I don't really have to. Nov 26 16:21:02 anyone toyed with JNI yet? Nov 26 16:21:20 haavi: I'm not overriding ViewGroup for the view that the ListView is in, I'm overriding the row view for each row in the ListView. Nov 26 16:21:47 I've overridden dispatchDraw() as well, and drew a separate line underneath each listing, which is why i now am annoyed by the margin. Nov 26 16:21:50 aha ok Nov 26 16:21:56 because the line does not stretch as far as it should. Nov 26 16:22:30 but in that row view you're overriding for each row you could specify MarginLayoutParams too Nov 26 16:23:03 not really, since the margins have already been imposed. the list row view is being asked to draw precisely 10 pixels in from mWindowLeft. Nov 26 16:23:08 and i can't do anything about that. Nov 26 16:23:16 not at that layer, anyway. Nov 26 16:23:28 my custom view has to respect what my parent asks me to do. Nov 26 16:24:14 ok, yea I think you've got a different implementation than I do then Nov 26 16:24:24 perhaps. Nov 26 16:24:26 I could just do a this.setLayoutParams(groupParams); Nov 26 16:24:40 this? who is this in this context? Nov 26 16:25:03 I've made my own view extending LinearLayout Nov 26 16:25:47 see, what i have done is specify in the XML file, and I tried to apply your setLayoutParams hook after setContentView() Nov 26 16:25:51 which did not work. Nov 26 16:25:54 it in fact threw an exception. Nov 26 16:26:12 i wonder if you have to side-step the XML layout if you want a ListView without the implicit border. Nov 26 16:26:33 or perhaps I could extend ListView with a view that unsets the margins. Nov 26 16:26:47 brb Nov 26 16:26:49 that's what I did Nov 26 16:28:27 that custom view that extends LinearLayout and that I return from getView is setting the groupParams.. Nov 26 16:28:41 works like a charm Nov 26 16:31:03 oh, i thought you meant you extended the LinearLayout that contained the ListView Nov 26 16:31:18 not that your ListView's rows were your extended LinearLayout. that is much closer to my situation. Nov 26 16:32:02 it's just like in that List4.java example Nov 26 16:32:15 with some modifications Nov 26 16:32:34 i see, that very closely matches my usage then :) Nov 26 16:33:15 i override CursorAdapter#getView and #bindView, though, but yeah, all the same. Nov 26 16:33:28 I override BaseAdapter Nov 26 16:33:53 ok, lets try this then... Nov 26 16:35:19 that actually did not seem to do anything... Nov 26 16:36:59 hmm, i gotta run to work. i'll play with this when i get home tonight. Nov 26 17:23:36 I'm trying this code (http://anddev.org/viewtopic.php?t=22) but when compiling it says: ActivityManager: Error: Activity class {com.google.android/com.google.android.ListViewDemo} does not exist Nov 26 17:23:45 what's wrong with that? Nov 26 17:29:31 I didn't edit that code yet... :s Nov 26 17:31:54 it can't find an Activity class called ListViewDemo in com.google.android I think Nov 26 17:32:26 you probably need to use another package name for your application Nov 26 17:36:23 haavi, what package name for example? Nov 26 17:36:45 a unique one, com.google.android is google's Nov 26 17:37:37 the standard is to use your domain name in reverse Nov 26 17:40:32 haavi, ok, now it works. Why we shouldn't use the google's one? Nov 26 17:41:04 because it causes errors like the one you got :) Nov 26 17:43:25 instead using my own package name will exclude all those errors? Nov 26 17:44:09 yea it helps to prevent name conflicts Nov 26 17:44:36 ok ;) Nov 26 17:46:36 keeps your stuff in its wn little box where it can play without bumping in to google Nov 26 17:46:40 *own Nov 26 17:47:23 :) ok! Nov 26 18:17:34 haavi: I'm relatively new to Java expanding my familiarity primarily to pursue Android development, and even I'm annoyed by all the goons coming in here who know nothing about Java trying to write their Android hello worlds :) Nov 26 18:18:15 haha Nov 26 18:18:42 wait how do you write a hello world?! i only got the instructions on how to write Hello, Android! Nov 26 18:23:24 jasta, soon you'll be able to point them at Hecl as a simpler way of doing Android development:-> Nov 26 18:28:28 oh yeah... Nov 26 18:35:24 davidw: huh? Nov 26 18:35:57 www.hecl.org Nov 26 18:36:06 yeah i'm looking now. Nov 26 18:36:07 looks silly :) Nov 26 18:36:51 why? Nov 26 18:37:57 to me it looks silly to write shit like this: addView(mTitle, new LinearLayout.LayoutParams( LayoutParams.FILL_PARENT, LayoutParams.WRAP_CONTENT)); Nov 26 18:38:09 it's horribly verbose Nov 26 18:38:25 davidw: It looks silly to Google too, which is why they let you write :) Nov 26 18:38:48 Google obviously prefers that you not build layouts that way. Nov 26 18:39:08 yeah, that's a little better, still, though, Java is not a walk in the park for a lot of people Nov 26 18:39:32 that said, Hecl just looks very crude and undeveloped. Nov 26 18:39:59 Why not port Ruby, Python, or Perl and write hooks for the UI more appropriate to those languages? Nov 26 18:40:25 or actually, not even port, since you could just compile them for ARM and there you go. Nov 26 18:40:49 i wouldnt say java is so much harder than ruby or perl Nov 26 18:40:53 it's actually quite simple and powerful Nov 26 18:40:58 all 3 of those languages would natively compile efficient interprets to ARM. Nov 26 18:41:00 and, importantly, smaller Nov 26 18:41:10 jasta, you still have the GUI and all that stuff Nov 26 18:41:14 interpreters* Nov 26 18:41:25 well its open (or will be), do all 3 :D lol Nov 26 18:41:48 cybereagle2: i'm certain someone will, since all you'd have to do is run the ./configure script with your architecture and use a cross-compiler :) Nov 26 18:41:55 cybereagle2, yeah, we'll see, won't we... if the native stuff has enough hooks, I'm positive we'll see scripting languages there natively Nov 26 18:42:25 i doubt any scripting languages will really take off for this platform, though. Nov 26 18:44:19 someone should write an app that works like the XUL Editor in the Extension Developer plugin for FF Nov 26 18:44:48 it lets you edit the xml and instantly lets you see the result in the dialogs Nov 26 18:45:05 that would make things alot easier :) Nov 26 18:45:31 that would be nice, but not necessary :) Nov 26 18:45:47 Hecl can be edited on the phone Nov 26 18:45:59 actually, Android development is really quite easy from what I've seen so far. And the abstractions are appropriate for the device architecture that they've built. Nov 26 18:46:07 Although, I wonder why there is both an onStop and onFreeze. Nov 26 18:51:21 is an app that changes the pitch adds echo etc. of your voice as you talk possible with the current API? Nov 26 18:52:43 s/current API/java Nov 26 18:54:18 I would be surprised it it were possible Nov 26 18:56:23 me too Nov 26 19:14:13 why hello Nov 26 19:14:46 hello. Nov 26 19:15:57 so, there is some debate going on in my program as to whether or not there will be non-java-language dalvik compilers Nov 26 19:16:29 could anyone shed some light on this? Nov 26 19:18:06 i'm pretty sure you could roll your own Nov 26 19:19:31 yeah sure, roll your own.. Nov 26 19:19:41 yonkeltron: Google will likely not sponser something like that, but the beautiful thing about Android is that what Google wants doesn't much matter :) Nov 26 19:20:07 yeah, i get that. at the same time, i trust google Nov 26 19:21:02 Well, that is your prerogative to do, but the fact remains that you are not required to trust them, or to agree with them. Nov 26 19:21:32 indeed. Nov 26 19:22:29 Google will likely officially support only Java development on Android. I'm certain that it will not stop folks from doing something else. Nov 26 19:22:31 jasta: your prob right that google won't sponsor it considering what i hear about google's 4-language limit Nov 26 19:22:43 Google's 4 language limit? Nov 26 19:22:44 i wonder about python though Nov 26 19:23:06 jasta: i have heard that google only uses 4 platforms internally: c, c++, python and java Nov 26 19:23:12 jasta: might just be rumors though Nov 26 19:23:26 That is possibly true, but it is not applicable here. Nov 26 19:23:47 lies, google writes everything in visual basic 6.0 Nov 26 19:24:05 Lede: thanks for correcting me. it's good to know the truth :-P Nov 26 19:24:52 Hi, someone from google here? Nov 26 19:25:05 yonkeltron: You can already rest assured that the platform itself requires cooperation with a lower level in the stack, not written in Java. Nov 26 19:25:27 gotcha Nov 26 19:25:28 So it is not impluasible to assume that you will be able to develop at that layer, or even at one analogous to the Java layer. Nov 26 19:25:54 * yonkeltron should prob read the spec Nov 26 19:26:02 Yes, you should Nov 26 19:26:13 edu: yes, romainguy_ is Nov 26 19:30:40 romainguy: an Android service will continue running despite of the mobile state? I mean, to save battery the handset will be released with some kind of suspend more feature. Nov 26 19:34:56 Java, C/C++, Python and Javascript, actually Nov 26 19:35:02 from what I've heard at least Nov 26 19:35:56 there's definately javascript in there, they <3 the ajax Nov 26 19:37:09 yep Nov 26 19:40:32 fun stuff :) Nov 26 19:40:42 Good Afternoon All Nov 26 19:40:43 yes, fun Nov 26 19:41:03 yeah Nov 26 19:57:39 * joejaxx wish he could get his hands on a hdk ;) Nov 26 20:00:31 ha Nov 26 20:04:07 Zer0Her0: :) Nov 26 20:04:15 Zer0Her0: i would pay to get one now :D Nov 26 20:04:54 well you'll probably have to pay to get one later too ;) Nov 26 20:05:48 i seem to have ended up with a few Iterators :/ I thought the array maintenance costs would be too high so I went with a LinkedList, but now I've ended up with several I'm thinking I should go back to plain arrays... oh well, i'll see how it performs Nov 26 20:14:14 anyone knows why setAlignment(Layout.Alignment.ALIGN_CENTER) doesn't work for views that are added as childs of TableRows? Nov 26 20:14:45 *children Nov 26 20:14:59 'scuse my poor english Nov 26 20:18:34 hello, how can I associate a .java file with it's .xml file? Nov 26 20:23:46 anyone knows? Nov 26 20:32:00 solved:) Nov 26 20:32:21 ask guardian Nov 26 20:39:44 Anyone know why I can't set the textSize on a TextView? I get "Integer types not allowed Nov 26 20:39:45 ? Nov 26 20:40:58 nm Nov 26 20:43:08 works for me Nov 26 20:43:32 view.setTextSize(10); Nov 26 20:44:20 or android:textSize if you set it in xml Nov 26 20:48:25 it takes floats for its parameter Nov 26 21:15:38 i'm reading about android (google mobile api) and this faq has an interesting answer to "Will Android run on insert phone here?" it says, "no" Nov 26 21:15:52 i totally don't understand that... android doesn't work on phones? Nov 26 21:16:22 i think they mean it wont necessarily run on existing phones Nov 26 21:16:35 tieTYT: it's totally software right now Nov 26 21:16:37 (though i hear it actually may with a bit of work) Nov 26 21:16:49 ah i see Nov 26 21:17:07 tieTYT, no phones are currently sold that run it out of the box Nov 26 21:17:25 that was going to be my next question, i'm really surprised that one is not on the faq Nov 26 21:17:37 i think they just phrased it basly lol Nov 26 21:17:40 *badly Nov 26 21:17:49 yeah i agree Nov 26 21:18:33 the thing i don't like about the idea of cell phone development, is I get the sense that once you develop an app, you REALLY got to check on a ton of phones to make sure things don't look funky Nov 26 21:18:44 i've got the same complaint with GWT Nov 26 21:19:04 tieTYT: You don't. You check on a bunch of different emulator skins. Nov 26 21:19:19 jasta: and hopefully you can trust them Nov 26 21:19:27 jasta: but it's cool that that exists Nov 26 21:19:27 tieTYT: And you can. Nov 26 21:19:48 The only advantage having a physical handset offers is that you can conduct usability studies. Nov 26 21:19:51 jasta: since android isn't available on a single cell phone yet, how can you be sure? Nov 26 21:19:54 jasta: I disagree Nov 26 21:19:59 jasta: hardware testing is a must Nov 26 21:20:01 And that is unfortunate that you cannot at the moment. Nov 26 21:20:10 Stephmw: For what purpose, precisely? Nov 26 21:20:27 i'd like to think he's saying for the purpose i brought up Nov 26 21:20:30 jasta: implementations vary, they always do and they always will Nov 26 21:20:38 jasta: you can never depend on emulation Nov 26 21:20:44 Stephmw: Implementations of Android? In what sense, specifically? Nov 26 21:21:03 the fact that you test via emulation makes it that way Nov 26 21:21:04 jasta: each handset that ships android will contain a slightly different revision of the software Nov 26 21:21:09 jasta: that's life Nov 26 21:21:27 Stephmw: And you don't think we will have specific versioning rules that govern precisely what that means for your application and how you are supposed to handle it? Nov 26 21:21:37 jasta: you're thinking too big Nov 26 21:21:42 Stephmw: you're thinking too small. Nov 26 21:21:44 jasta: you're thinking 1.0 to 2.0 differences Nov 26 21:21:50 No, I'm not. Nov 26 21:21:54 jasta: 1.0.1 will have enough differences to 1.0.2 Nov 26 21:22:15 jasta: I'm basing this on industry experience Nov 26 21:22:20 I'm thinking the difference between Debian etch and sarge, the difference between Perl 5 and 5.001, the difference between Linux 2.4 and 2.6, 2.6.18 and 2.6.22. Nov 26 21:22:40 Any software correctly versioned will offer specific rules that developers may rely on. Nov 26 21:22:41 you're thinking the OS level, I'm thinking bugfixes in the Dalvik class implementationg Nov 26 21:22:45 *implementations Nov 26 21:22:49 This is not a new concept to development, and Google is not new to development. Nov 26 21:23:11 jasta: we're going to have to disagree. Nov 26 21:23:16 Stephmw: And how is that different than bug fixes in any of the software examples I previously gave? Nov 26 21:23:32 they've all got the same problem Nov 26 21:23:34 You must just be far too familiar with backward development habits that I am certain Google will not employ. Nov 26 21:23:41 but at least with them, you get to easily test the result directly Nov 26 21:23:55 jasta: you're painting me with a pretty broad stroke Nov 26 21:24:02 Now, I do believe there are critical reasons to have handsets for testing, but the reasons you've thrown up here are not among them. Nov 26 21:24:17 The largest and most important, of course, is usability testing. Nov 26 21:24:32 I'm saying that Google does not control what manufacturers stick on their devices. And the manufacturers will not change the way they operate Nov 26 21:24:35 Physical usability, that is. Nov 26 21:25:03 Stephmw: The manufacturers have been forced to sign non-fragmentation agreements. They are not permitted to employ their usual habits. Nov 26 21:25:10 perhaps android updates itself or is easy to update Nov 26 21:25:15 jasta: you're optimistic Nov 26 21:25:33 tieTYT: OTA updates are gonna blow with the current data charging regimes Nov 26 21:25:48 jasta: "woops, we included that bugfix" Nov 26 21:26:00 yep Nov 26 21:26:01 jasta: once it's in the wild, they rarely recall Nov 26 21:26:05 Stephmw: That behaviour will not fly on Android, I absolutely promise you that. Nov 26 21:26:28 jasta: it's worked for them for over 15 years, I'll wait to be convinced Nov 26 21:26:37 Stephmw: are you saying they won't do updates that way because of that? Nov 26 21:26:47 Google has consistently proven that their development habits carefully match ideal conditions. They are not new to this, and they have not ever conducted themselves as sloppily as you are suggesting. Nov 26 21:27:02 jasta: google != the cell phone companies Nov 26 21:27:05 And, once they turn it over to the open source community, you will find that it is only further buttoned up. Nov 26 21:27:11 tieTYT: I'm saying that manufacturers habitually give 3rdparty devs lip service when they do bugfixing Nov 26 21:27:31 tieTYT: Google has forced them to sign non-fragmentation agreements. Read up on what that meant specifically and you find that the manufacturers do not have the option to destroy Google' (and our) hard work. Nov 26 21:27:35 Google's* Nov 26 21:27:54 tieTYT: and jasta has the belief that manufacturers will leave their shipping handsets open for the 'open source community' to reflash. Nov 26 21:28:03 No, I do not. Nov 26 21:28:22 I believe that manufacturers will not be permitted to distribute handsets that fork any part of the android base. Nov 26 21:28:25 how, pray tell, will they ensure the OS isn't fragmented by bugfixes then? Nov 26 21:28:31 Which will guarantee that they do not control compatibility or development progress. Nov 26 21:28:38 jasta: according to this summary, http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/13/1348233&from=rss it says they can't fork Nov 26 21:28:39 if the OS is open sourced... Nov 26 21:28:42 And they do not control versioning. Nov 26 21:28:51 that doesn't mean they can't let their shit get out of date (of course i've only read the summary) Nov 26 21:29:12 or that later entrants even have to sign up Nov 26 21:29:20 Stephmw: If the OS is open sourced? Nov 26 21:29:23 jasta: right Nov 26 21:29:34 You suspect that Google will withdrawl their commitment? Nov 26 21:29:41 nope Nov 26 21:30:06 I suspect that next year, some additional manufacturers will download the source, build their crap and ship it with varying incompatible bugfixes Nov 26 21:30:23 What about the non-fragmentation agreement, then? Nov 26 21:30:33 only the OHA members had to sign that Nov 26 21:30:33 You don't believe that is legally enforcable? Nov 26 21:30:41 That is true, yes. Nov 26 21:30:51 you don't have to be an OHA member to download and use it once it's released next year Nov 26 21:30:58 Also true. Nov 26 21:31:14 did i hear its gonne be under the apache license? or did i make that up in my head... Nov 26 21:31:16 so what's preventing these fine entrants from fragmenting? Nov 26 21:31:23 cybereagle2: ASL2 iirc Nov 26 21:31:24 Stephmw: Nothing. Nov 26 21:31:32 cybereagle2: it says that in articles i've read Nov 26 21:31:50 anyway jasta: afaik, fragmentation has to do with forking/modifying the source, it doesn't have to do with letting stuff get out of date Nov 26 21:31:50 And that is certainly a weak point of the licensing, however remember the folks who *have* signed the OHA agreement. Nov 26 21:32:13 tieTYT: Letting stuff get out of date is not a problem, so long as the versioning is sensible. And it wil be. Nov 26 21:32:16 will* Nov 26 21:32:20 so unless android comes out pristine and complete, over time you're going to have to code for the lowest common denominator Nov 26 21:32:32 or the new stuff Nov 26 21:33:11 tieTYT: Yes, or deprecate the versions you don't want to support. Nov 26 21:33:17 Just like you do now when you write software. Nov 26 21:33:24 that comment just doesn't make sense to me. If version 1.0 has a bug in it and the next version fixes it, to make sure your app works on ALL phones you gotta code with the workaround instead of the newest stuff Nov 26 21:33:30 Are all of you new to writing software or something? Nov 26 21:34:05 tieTYT: So long as the versioning is not controlled by the manufacturers, there will be no problem, and nothing will be any different than writing good quality open source software right now. Nov 26 21:34:08 jasta: you appear to be new to mobile software development, however. Nov 26 21:34:14 well personally, I keep my cell phones for 3+ years until i get a new one. With my computer on the other hand, i can update to the latest version of the jdk easily Nov 26 21:34:59 Stephmw: Yes, thankfully. Google is clearly trying to wipe away the existing development chaos on mobile platforms and bring it back to the sanity that the PC market enjoys. Nov 26 21:35:11 jasta: I will rejoice when that happens Nov 26 21:35:12 PC and beyond, I mean. Nov 26 21:35:25 jasta: for now, bear my scepticism - it's well founded Nov 26 21:35:33 Stephmw: Give me an address and I'll have a bottle of champagne ready to ship :) Nov 26 21:35:40 ;) Nov 26 21:35:58 well if theres champagne i can find it my heart to be skeptical too ;) Nov 26 21:35:59 that's not the point, the point is that this is a cell phone. On a computer i can just say, "use the latest version, bitch" on a cell phone it's a big deal to say, "buy a new phone, bitch" Nov 26 21:36:12 I'm happy to digress now, though. Nov 26 21:36:53 yeah but even when users can update software in pc's they often don't, god knows why but they dont lol Nov 26 21:36:55 in the former, i meant the latest version of the jvm Nov 26 21:37:11 theres not many situations you arent coding for the lowest common denominator, or at least a lower denominator Nov 26 21:37:16 cybereagle2: but they can Nov 26 21:37:46 Anyone planning on going to FOSDEM? Nov 26 21:38:15 Stephmw: It would be a long trip for me :) Nov 26 21:38:18 and that's one of the reasons people usually don't make java desktop apps. Cause making people download the latest jdk totally cuts down on the number of people that will use your software Nov 26 21:38:30 if you ask me, android has the same problem Nov 26 21:38:43 jasta: yeah, that's a shame :) Nov 26 21:38:47 i'm a java developer and I don't even have the latest version of the jvm (I have the latest major version) Nov 26 21:38:52 jasta: just like all the US confs are for me Nov 26 21:38:57 ahh 23-24 feb, i'll be away for shmoocon then (well, with my friends in canada by that time actually) Nov 26 21:39:10 Stephmw: Where are you at BTW? What country? Nov 26 21:39:10 tieTYT: I'm also a Java dev, small world :) Nov 26 21:39:19 jasta: United Kingdom, London Nov 26 21:39:48 Cool. Nov 26 21:40:01 uk here too Nov 26 21:40:35 I actually am not as familiar with carrier MO in other countries. I assume it all must be pretty similar, though. Nov 26 21:40:50 However, in the US, data service is very reasonably priced. Nov 26 21:41:02 Just latching onto the comment you made about data usag.e Nov 26 21:41:23 Most US carriers offer $20/mo unlimited packages, and that has been standard for years. Nov 26 21:41:38 jasta: how about yourself? Nov 26 21:41:46 Many of them permit phone "tethering" as well to use your phone as a dial-up modem for your laptop or computer. Nov 26 21:41:57 Stephmw: Isn't it obvious? Seattle :) Nov 26 21:41:58 data in the UK is... variable, some places charge an arm and a leg Nov 26 21:42:12 jasta: I could tell US... harder to follow up cities :) Nov 26 21:42:30 This industry only cares about two, though :) Nov 26 21:42:53 the industry have their sights firmly aimed at ARPU Nov 26 21:43:20 (average revenue per user) Nov 26 21:43:30 I know, I looked it up. Nov 26 21:45:00 ;) I guessed some of the lurkers wouldn't Nov 26 21:45:17 Stephmw: is your carrier actually in the mobile arena? i've walked the line a bit but never took the pludge in :) Nov 26 21:45:33 I've been too afraid of all the evil up until now. Nov 26 21:46:02 carrier? Nov 26 21:46:19 career sorry, my mind is all over the place. Nov 26 21:46:19 sorry, cross-atalantic jargon sometimes doesn't quite translate Nov 26 21:46:24 ahh Nov 26 21:46:33 yes, it has been for the bast 6 years Nov 26 21:46:42 interesting, primarily in the UK or is that recent? Nov 26 21:46:58 with operators, manufacturers and 3rdparty devs (hence my somewhat blase attitudes) Nov 26 21:47:12 Europe primarily Nov 26 21:47:49 I could tell you've been jaded. My big question for Google is where their target market is. Are they focusing internationally or trying to start in the US and expand outward... Nov 26 21:47:59 not currently working with any of the players though, taking a break Nov 26 21:48:07 They might have the most success in the US and Japan, actually. Nov 26 21:48:29 jasta: Japan, yes... US I'm not sure Nov 26 21:48:35 the US market is very entrenched Nov 26 21:49:09 Stephmw: I don't know that I could agree. The US has struck an interesting balance with AT&T/Verizon leading the pack, and T-Mobile/Sprint just dying for a way to break through. Nov 26 21:49:19 It's no wonder that T-Mobile and Sprint will be the first to offer Android handsets. Nov 26 21:49:49 T-Mobile especially is just willing to throw everything they've got in the consumers favor. That could end up very compatible with the Android way of thinking. Nov 26 21:50:10 jasta: and to a European, that's a very small list of carriers Nov 26 21:50:10 And once you start turning the consumers in one direction, the whole thing could start changing. Nov 26 21:50:28 Stephmw: Which is why I said they will probably find the most success in the US and Japan :) Nov 26 21:50:33 I'd stay the hell away from Europe :) Nov 26 21:50:45 well they better not, i want my handset! lol Nov 26 21:50:48 and Canada, which tends to reflect the European carrier philosophy much more so than the US. Nov 26 21:52:33 I actually think Google mostly has its sights set on the US too, which seems like a pretty small market to target but also seems like the easiest one to break into. Nov 26 21:52:48 I hope not Nov 26 21:52:55 maybe at first though Nov 26 21:53:17 I think it would be silly to ignore the global market, but not necessarily silly to stay out of Europe for a while. Nov 26 21:53:27 Japan would be a great place to target, rattle up Nokia a bit :) Nov 26 21:53:42 maybe they could release it in new zealand first Nov 26 21:53:48 we never get new stuff first :( Nov 26 21:54:04 Japan's got crazy advanced phones already Nov 26 21:54:14 japan would be a very hard market Nov 26 21:54:47 duey: I actually don't know about that. Android can potentially offer a lot of fresh innovation that will do very well in that market. Nov 26 21:54:53 jasta: nokia? they aren't that big in japan, iirc foma is a bit more popular Nov 26 21:54:54 Not initially, I don't think. Nov 26 21:54:57 But down the line. Nov 26 21:55:06 toshiba Nov 26 21:55:07 nec ;p Nov 26 21:55:18 Toshiba and NEC make cell phones? Nov 26 21:55:28 yes Nov 26 21:55:29 I didn't know that. Nov 26 21:56:31 Either way, I think it'll be very interesting to see where Google tries to steer this monster. Nov 26 21:56:47 But my money's on a big push in the US first. Nov 26 21:58:28 jasta: there are also a large number of Asian ODMs (original device manufacturers) that'll build you just about any phone in volumes, they don't even mind not having their brand on it Nov 26 22:01:44 i know they will go and give android phones to apple employees Nov 26 22:01:46 That reminds me of a side-note. Does anyone know who made the Android phones that Google engineers are walking around withJ? Nov 26 22:01:49 with* Nov 26 22:02:03 misrosoft Nov 26 22:02:06 ahh dang Nov 26 22:02:07 My thought was HTC Nov 26 22:02:14 probably some custom job Nov 26 22:02:27 duey: Almost certainly, but you don't think it's one of the 3 in the OHA? Nov 26 22:02:37 i would say so Nov 26 22:02:42 or google made them Nov 26 22:02:54 I'm excited to see what Samsung comes up with. I love my BlackJack :) Nov 26 22:03:03 i dont like phones Nov 26 22:03:30 In general, or the basic function they are performing? :) Nov 26 22:03:36 in general Nov 26 22:03:37 HTC phones were probably the easiest to start with... Linux has already been hacked onto WinMobile devices Nov 26 22:03:43 mobile phones that is Nov 26 22:03:56 Stephmw: It's already been hacked onto the Treo's too. Nov 26 22:03:59 dont like being contactable Nov 26 22:04:16 phones make good watches though Nov 26 22:04:18 duey: ... why are you in this channel then? :) Nov 26 22:04:25 duey: aye Nov 26 22:04:33 doing an honours project on android :) Nov 26 22:05:05 i use my phone to tell the time! Nov 26 22:06:04 how honorable Nov 26 22:06:08 duey: so... you're working on a project on a platform that runs on a device you don't like... ok :) Nov 26 22:06:42 heh Nov 26 22:06:56 i probably don't like them because every phone i have ever had has sucked Nov 26 22:07:13 gphone's don't suck Nov 26 22:07:19 no they don't :) Nov 26 22:07:29 they would have to exist to suck Nov 26 22:07:38 indeed Nov 26 22:08:24 here here Nov 26 22:08:33 or is it hear hear Nov 26 22:08:35 hmm Nov 26 22:08:54 android is cool because its easy to develop for Nov 26 22:11:12 duey: you could replace all those lame features with a clock Nov 26 22:11:38 is there a clock in android? Nov 26 22:21:32 Is there a list of applications that Google is going to develop for android so that I can just ignore them? Nov 26 22:22:55 i.e. mail/news reader Nov 26 22:23:31 FunnyLookinHat: just assume everybody else will also do the obvious Nov 26 22:24:01 Hahaha, cool. Nov 26 22:56:24 Stephmw: Well, careful with that. Google is depending on us to fill in the gaps a bit with even obvious stuff. Nov 26 22:56:37 jasta: absolutely :) Nov 26 22:56:44 jasta: it's a recursive suggestion Nov 26 22:56:48 I can't remember exactly from the page but I'm sure they're counting on photo management, full scale media playback, camera, etc. Nov 26 22:57:00 depend? Pay! Nov 26 22:57:58 jasta: what's a shame is that all these nice apps won't be easily portable to any other Java systems (other than some superficial bits) Nov 26 23:00:03 Stephmw: Yes, that's true, unless of course the developer isn't a complete buffoon. Nov 26 23:00:44 jasta: :D Nov 26 23:00:56 jasta: Jaded, me? Nov 26 23:01:10 You have your world, I have mine. I hate mine just as much as you hate yours :) Nov 26 23:02:38 I have a pretty cool idea for an app that I will almost certainly design with a reusable substrate library on top of a not-so-reusable Android-specific GUI. Nov 26 23:03:02 Although whether or not I attempt to realize my idea depends heavily on what Google says in the coming months. Nov 26 23:03:16 Specifically, how they plan to award legitimate open source outfits. Nov 26 23:03:34 I have a feeling you could come up with a phrase along the lines of "x-platform layers: X, Y, and Z - pick any two" Nov 26 23:04:46 I want to know that if I create an open project with community members contributing that we won't be hosed by the android developer challenge and either not considered, or not awarded fair portions of the earnings. Nov 26 23:05:09 Because I refuse to start any project for Android that is to be closed source or secret in any way. That is rubbish. Nov 26 23:05:48 Hell I'll still probably start my ambitious project either way, but I'll be way more disgruntled if the developer challenge frowns on my strategy :) Nov 26 23:13:09 I hope that open source stuff is ok Nov 26 23:13:22 would be ironic if it weren't Nov 26 23:13:25 I think it will be Nov 26 23:14:27 i know that it will be "OK", but my concern is how it is considered in the challenge. Nov 26 23:14:42 for example, if i make an open project, and someone forked my work, how would contributions be judged? Nov 26 23:14:56 and who specifically in the project gets the award money and what portions? Nov 26 23:16:36 they would be a putz Nov 26 23:17:10 i think the fair way is that 1 individual registers the project and that individual who registers it should decide what contributors get what, and google should offer a dispute resolution process if any of the developers disagree. Nov 26 23:17:51 or if any related projects want to file a dispute that code was shared or forked. Nov 26 23:18:15 google probably doesn't want to play mediator, though. Nov 26 23:44:31 I just have to say it. The ProgressBar widget looks like arse. Nov 27 01:24:45 So, I'm fippling around with the Android SDK.. and the first line gives me an error saying "java.lang.Object cannot be resolved". What gives? I havn't changed any of eclipse's runtime settings or fiddled with anything in the background. Anyone know how I could resolve this? Nov 27 01:26:25 you need to set the location of your SDK in eclipse Nov 27 01:26:43 have a look at android preferences in eclipse Nov 27 01:27:49 Oh, I see. I'll look into that then :) Thanks Nov 27 01:32:14 D'oh, it's even in the friggin installnotes Nov 27 01:32:16 * ersi slaps self Nov 27 01:35:57 Hurr.. Well, I though by installing the Android-ADT, I'd get the SDK with me. But I'm realising this is not the case? :o Nov 27 01:41:26 There we go, now it's happier then ever! Nov 27 01:43:35 and another android dev joins the army! lol Nov 27 01:43:53 'tis a trap! ;p Nov 27 02:09:26 does anyone have any ideas on creating a layout that is a series of lists? Nov 27 02:09:51 i've tried a couple different approaches, but nothing seems to work :S Nov 27 02:29:29 how would a user tab through them? Nov 27 02:32:49 well, i was trying to do a list with sub lists Nov 27 02:33:22 so it would be just one long list with sub-lists inside Nov 27 02:35:01 how do you wish to separate "sublists"? Nov 27 02:35:15 you could implement separators that are not selectable and that draw some custom divider. Nov 27 02:36:53 well, wanted to be able to select the header to roll up the sub list Nov 27 02:37:05 that would be possible via a custom ListView. Nov 27 02:37:13 you are not looking for a list of lists, you are looking for a custom widget. Nov 27 02:37:14 but that gives me an idea, I forgot about list seperators Nov 27 02:37:26 that implements custom row widgets. Nov 27 02:38:00 yeah I was thinking I was going to end up there, just didn't want to if I didn't have to, heh Nov 27 02:38:18 you might not have to, but you should. it will be cleanier and simpler that way. Nov 27 02:41:13 * Luniv starts reading up on custom widgets Nov 27 02:41:37 just extend a list adapter, and the row views that it adapts. Nov 27 02:41:46 List*.java in the apidemos should be appropriate. Nov 27 02:54:53 ersi: lol its a trap **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Nov 27 02:59:57 2007