**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Dec 19 02:59:57 2007
Dec 19 06:52:21 * jasta scratches his head
Dec 19 06:52:28 <jasta> TimeZone.getDefault() is GMT?
Dec 19 08:59:00 <davidw> is the helloandroid dude here?
Dec 19 09:00:40 <Lede> morrildl?
Dec 19 09:00:57 <Lede> mo<tab><tab><tab><tab><tab>
Dec 19 09:00:58 <Lede> nope :)
Dec 19 09:04:04 <davidw> I don't think it's him... it seems to be 'hobbs' on the site
Dec 19 09:49:21 <cutmasta> hola
Dec 19 09:59:23 <novelo> hi
Dec 19 09:59:35 <novelo> is this a dev channel for google android?
Dec 19 10:02:53 <davidw> que pasa?/
Dec 19 10:03:42 <cutmasta> :)
Dec 19 10:04:03 <cutmasta> davidw, snowy weather in innsbruck? :)
Dec 19 10:04:25 <davidw> no snow, only cold as hell
Dec 19 10:06:24 <cutmasta> ah, here too.
Dec 19 10:06:34 <cutmasta> but just -10C
Dec 19 10:07:50 <davidw> that's "cold as hell"
Dec 19 10:13:11 <cutmasta> cold as hell is -20 :)
Dec 19 10:38:45 <davidw> novelo, yes, it is
Dec 19 10:39:11 <novelo> oh cool
Dec 19 10:39:40 <novelo> is there something in the sdk for displaying Tables like a jtable?
Dec 19 10:42:44 <novelo> i wanna Display more than one Value in one row
Dec 19 10:43:36 <novelo> and i want to have a little bit controll like clickable and scrollable
Dec 19 10:46:20 <davidw> maybe a tableview/layout
Dec 19 10:47:35 <novelo> but a table view layout gives me only the possibility to get controll on the positioning of view components not really a table
Dec 19 10:49:40 <novelo> hmm i think i have to workover my design of the application
Dec 19 13:30:00 <Argiris> What import must I do to hava a good getText like method for android?And how I use it...
Dec 19 14:07:20 <cutmasta> someone an idea how i can modify the /system/etc/favorites-default.xml  on the emulator?
Dec 19 14:07:34 <cutmasta> seems that it contains the entries for the home screen
Dec 19 14:16:12 <novelo> is it only me or is the android sdk documentation like Hindi for Zulus translatet by a martian?
Dec 19 14:17:58 <cutmasta> lol
Dec 19 14:18:07 <cutmasta> ok i found how to modify the files :))
Dec 19 14:18:23 <Lede> using `cat'
Dec 19 14:18:27 <Lede> ?
Dec 19 14:19:16 <Lede> `cat >>' to be more precise
Dec 19 14:19:40 <cutmasta> no, i pulled them via adb and modified and pushed them back
Dec 19 14:19:48 <cutmasta> did not know that i can pull any file from the emu
Dec 19 14:19:58 <Lede> oh oke.
Dec 19 14:20:31 <novelo> can someone post me a link for all of these view related xml tags
Dec 19 14:20:37 <novelo> PLEASE
Dec 19 14:21:30 <cutmasta> Lede, i wanted to use my own xmpp server instead of gmail one
Dec 19 14:23:16 <davidw> novelo, google.com
Dec 19 14:25:18 <novelo> davidw: lol
Dec 19 14:26:14 <novelo> ok found something
Dec 19 15:13:03 <cutmasta> somebody knows how to include/use 3rd party jars in my android app?
Dec 19 15:13:34 <cutmasta> i added the jar to the buildpath in eclipse
Dec 19 15:13:46 <cutmasta> but it doesnt find the needed resource at runtime
Dec 19 15:14:13 <cybereagle> someone was talking about this kinda thing last night. you need ot get the jar on the phone/emulator somehow
Dec 19 15:14:36 <davidw> you could unzip it and then rezip it
Dec 19 15:14:55 <davidw>     <unjar src="jars/jline-0.9.92.jar" dest="${j2se.build}" />
Dec 19 15:15:08 <davidw> then when it makes a jar from that... you have all the class files
Dec 19 15:15:47 <cutmasta> cybereagle, i could push it via adb on the device
Dec 19 15:16:01 <cutmasta> now the question is , which classpath the app is searching on the emu
Dec 19 15:16:31 <cybereagle> aha, the answer to which would help me in my quest to make nio work too
Dec 19 15:16:58 <davidw> it's not going to load a .jar on the emulator - it's not running a jvm, remember
Dec 19 15:17:04 <cybereagle> also though, how would you get the jar on the phone in the real world, like how would you distribute it ordinarily?
Dec 19 15:18:05 <cutmasta> davidw, what do you mean with unzip and rezip? is the a "build.xml" like file for the android project
Dec 19 15:18:20 <cutmasta> so that it just packs all jars in  the apk
Dec 19 15:18:42 <davidw> yeah, you stuff it all in that file, that's what I mean
Dec 19 15:18:54 <cutmasta> so you mean unzip the apk file?
Dec 19 15:18:54 <davidw> if you want it to be shared between different apps.... I don't know
Dec 19 15:19:02 <davidw> no, the .jar
Dec 19 15:19:16 <davidw> then when you build the apk, include the unzipped files
Dec 19 15:19:40 <cutmasta> you mean include all .class files from the jar my project
Dec 19 15:19:47 <cutmasta> you mean include all .class files from the jar in my project
Dec 19 15:21:05 <davidw> yes!
Dec 19 15:21:05 <dims> no, you can specify them when you run dx
Dec 19 15:21:07 <dims> usage:
Dec 19 15:21:07 <dims>   dx --dex [--debug] [--verbose] [--positions=<style>] [--locals=<style>]
Dec 19 15:21:07 <dims>   [--keep-classes] [--output=<file>] [--dump-to=<file>] [--dump-width=<n>]
Dec 19 15:21:07 <dims>   [--dump-method=<name>[*]] [--verbose-dump] [--no-files]
Dec 19 15:21:07 <dims>   [<file>.class | <file>.{zip,jar,apk} | <directory>] ...
Dec 19 15:21:08 <dims>     Convert a set of classfiles into a dex file, optionally embedded in a
Dec 19 15:21:10 <dims>     jar/zip. Output name must end with one of: .dex .jar .zip .apk. Positions
Dec 19 15:21:12 <dims>     options: none, important, lines. Locals options: none, full.
Dec 19 15:21:13 <davidw> even better
Dec 19 15:21:24 <Lede> dx?
Dec 19 15:21:36 <davidw> argh
Dec 19 15:21:50 <davidw> dims, what are you working on today?
Dec 19 15:23:01 <dims> still poking around, trying to find interesting tidbits :)
Dec 19 15:23:19 * absentia needs to do more android.
Dec 19 15:24:38 <dims> i just can't find a way to get hold of the damn GSMPhone instance !!
Dec 19 15:25:15 <dims> only one of those can be created and it is created by default inside Phone.apk
Dec 19 15:26:01 <davidw> new Highlander()
Dec 19 15:26:15 <cybereagle> dime, you wouldnt have any tips or pointers for me if i wanted to manually upgrade the bundled apache.harmony libs on the emulator would you?
Dec 19 15:26:18 <cybereagle> *dims
Dec 19 15:27:41 <dims> cybereagle, haven't looked at that yet.
Dec 19 15:27:49 <absentia> thereCanBeMoreThanOne = AdvancedUtils.copySingleton(GSMPhoneObj);
Dec 19 15:28:48 <cybereagle> ok, i'll carry on poking then lol
Dec 19 15:29:48 <dims> cybereagle: problem was that all the jni entry points is inside libnativehelper.so
Dec 19 15:30:08 <dims> they have not separated out the entry points needed by harmony
Dec 19 15:30:34 <dims> they did a separate libicui18n.so for the ICUI library
Dec 19 15:30:59 <dims> absentia: problem is the phone.apk runs inside a separate process
Dec 19 15:31:29 <dims> crossing process boundaries can be done only with the Binder stuff
Dec 19 15:31:31 <absentia> ah
Dec 19 15:31:33 <absentia> screwed.
Dec 19 15:32:00 <absentia> what? it doesn't advertise a global open permission service to allow access to its internal state?  :-)
Dec 19 15:32:01 <dims> yep :(
Dec 19 15:33:31 <cybereagle> hmm, maybe i'll just wait for the, to update it in the sdk officially, cos thats gonna be a pain without source
Dec 19 15:33:37 <cybereagle> a big fat pain
Dec 19 15:33:58 <cybereagle> still its christmas, what else am i gonna do lol
Dec 19 15:34:07 <dims> cybereagle: you need nio?
Dec 19 15:34:18 <cybereagle> well more of a want really
Dec 19 15:34:24 <cybereagle> but it does make my projecta lot nicer
Dec 19 15:34:31 <cybereagle> its the networking channels that arent imlemented
Dec 19 15:35:32 <dims> have you been able to isolate the nio stuff in harmony?
Dec 19 15:36:11 <cybereagle> yeah
Dec 19 15:36:21 <cybereagle> there's a patch to add support, or its in newer versions
Dec 19 15:36:29 <dims> if you can get bundle up harmony's c/C++ nio code into a separate so, you can use harmony specific classes for now instead of going thru java.*
Dec 19 15:36:46 <dims> no?
Dec 19 15:36:53 <cybereagle> ahhh yeah that would make sense
Dec 19 15:36:56 * absentia wants to use c++ on the gphone
Dec 19 15:37:09 <dims> then you don't have to worry about if/when the sdk gets updated
Dec 19 15:37:16 <dims> and we all have more toys to play with :)
Dec 19 15:37:38 <cybereagle> hehe
Dec 19 15:38:25 <dims> btw, benno and motz's blog's are indispensible dealing with c/c++ inside gphone (am sure you know this!)
Dec 19 15:39:12 <cybereagle> yeah, but i only started looking beyond the android api last night when i decided i needed to make nio work
Dec 19 15:39:37 <cybereagle> its even more fun under the hood :D
Dec 19 15:40:06 <dims> yep! :)
Dec 19 15:49:33 * Lede grins as he notices a file called RootKit.class in the SDK
Dec 19 15:58:56 <benley> heh
Dec 19 16:05:40 <TuXinator> hi ppl, i have big problems with adb server after updating to new version of sdk
Dec 19 16:06:31 <TuXinator> appl i wrote, cant be started anymore, each emaulator is doing something else
Dec 19 16:06:55 <Stephmw> sure there's no adb version running in the background?
Dec 19 16:07:04 <TuXinator> yeah
Dec 19 16:07:29 <TuXinator> adb kill-server is my favorite instruction :D
Dec 19 16:07:33 <cybereagle> depending what version you upgraded from, you might also need to reinstall the eclipse plugin (if you're using it)
Dec 19 16:07:42 <TuXinator> i have dont it
Dec 19 16:07:51 <TuXinator> done*
Dec 19 16:08:07 <TuXinator> than the appl started working well
Dec 19 16:08:32 <TuXinator> but after restart of emulator evrything changed
Dec 19 16:08:44 <cybereagle> unless there's data you need in it you might wanna try adding -wipe-data to the emulator startup options to get a fresh device image
Dec 19 16:08:57 <TuXinator> i tried it too
Dec 19 16:09:09 <TuXinator> that didnt help
Dec 19 16:09:59 <TuXinator> it happened that adb resources show the emulator that is runnig and
Dec 19 16:10:32 <TuXinator> i searched for the appl in /data/app
Dec 19 16:10:42 <TuXinator> and no appl was there
Dec 19 16:10:54 <TuXinator> but i can start an old version of the appl
Dec 19 16:11:00 <dims> folks, here's how to simulate key strokes - http://davanum.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/android-simulate-key-strokes/
Dec 19 16:11:51 <cybereagle> simulate keystrokes eh... i can think of a few uses for THAT mwaha
Dec 19 16:12:25 <cybereagle> thats really weird TuXinator, it sounds like you have old stuff laying around buf if you already tried killng and wiping everything i dunno what to suggest
Dec 19 16:12:26 <TuXinator> in another version of emulator if i click on the appl icon or somwhere else where no icon can be seen than the recent-calls activity  starts
Dec 19 16:14:21 <TuXinator> does anyone ever get message: "adb server didn't ACK" while executing adb start-server?
Dec 19 16:16:24 <TuXinator> im using eclipse as IDE and winXP prof. sp2....if anyone can help...
Dec 19 16:18:43 <davidw> ew
Dec 19 16:20:43 <dims> TuXinator: kill adb from task manager?
Dec 19 16:20:50 <dims> TuXinator: kill adb.exe from task manager?
Dec 19 16:21:27 <dims> kill emulator.exe as well if you find any
Dec 19 16:24:24 <TuXinator> i killed it from task manager and from console, also reinstalled the eclipse plugin and deleted all files i could find related to android and extracted it new...nothing helped
Dec 19 16:25:39 <TuXinator> problem returnes after some changes on code and a few restarts of appl.
Dec 19 16:26:04 <TuXinator> goin crazy slowly ....
Dec 19 16:28:29 <davidw> hrm
Dec 19 16:28:42 <davidw> this AutoCompleteText thing messes with newlines
Dec 19 16:45:39 <dragor43> tux: it seems like people who've had problems after upgrading from earlier sdk version got things working again by deleting the emulator.img and .cfg file in /Documents and Settings/<Your User>/Local Settings/Application Data/Android
Dec 19 16:47:31 <TuXinator> lol, thanks for your advice but i tried it too, that didnt help
Dec 19 16:49:03 <TuXinator> i created my own muck provider and my old appl. worked fine with that, but after upgrade ony old muck provider is working, although both are avaliable
Dec 19 16:49:44 <TuXinator> so i deleted the default android muck provider and started the appl from again with only my provider in database
Dec 19 16:50:40 <TuXinator> what happened? the old muck provider was sending his coordinates, although it is not present anymore in db ... :D
Dec 19 16:51:17 <TuXinator> yes i cleaned all, and pushed the new appl on emulator
Dec 19 16:51:35 <TuXinator> crazy behaviour
Dec 19 16:51:56 <TuXinator> dont know what to do anymore... :(
Dec 19 17:08:58 <davidw> sigh... I want source code:-/
Dec 19 17:16:18 * cybereagle wonders if he'll need dalvik to build this part of the harmony classlib or not
Dec 19 17:20:20 <Lede> oh great, suddenly nothing launches anymore
Dec 19 17:20:32 * Lede goes into facepalm mode
Dec 19 17:27:12 <jasta> yawn
Dec 19 18:37:03 <dragor43> hmm, is a possible for a subActivity to view the request code which was used to invoke it?
Dec 19 18:38:24 <jasonlee> wish i knew =)
Dec 19 18:39:53 <Lede> request code?
Dec 19 18:43:09 <Lede> as in startSubActivity(intent, <request code>) ?
Dec 19 19:01:27 <dragor43> yeah
Dec 19 19:01:44 <dragor43> i ended up not needing it for my purposes but.. would be a nice thing to have for more complex apps.
Dec 19 19:01:53 <dragor43> like say you're using an activity for multiple purposes
Dec 19 19:02:56 <dragor43> you could pass some flag in the 'extras' data to denote what purpose this 'multi-service' activity is being used for, or it could just access the request code by the calling activity.
Dec 19 20:37:13 <System123> If android is installed on a phone can u still run java apps?
Dec 19 20:38:05 <davidw> j2me apps? not right not, not out of the box
Dec 19 20:38:10 <davidw> someone will probably make an emulator
Dec 19 20:38:32 <davidw> anyone know why it wouldn't be able to create a new sqlite DB?
Dec 19 20:39:40 <davidw> I'm guessing it's a permissions thing... but on what
Dec 19 20:39:58 <cutmasta> re
Dec 19 20:40:50 <System123> Can it be installed on any phone or only specific phones?
Dec 19 20:41:10 <davidw> android can't be installed on any phones
Dec 19 20:42:26 <cybereagle> yet, eventually it will be specific phones. though some people will probably find some hacks to get it on others too
Dec 19 20:59:17 <Lede> davidw: did it work before?
Dec 19 20:59:41 <Lede> davidw: i also had a problem with making a new database in my program, for some reason it was thinking my program was not really the program it thought it was (some id was different?) (or did i dream that part?) i ended up making a new project and copying over all files and everything worked again o_o;
Dec 19 21:00:55 <davidw> no, I've never done it befoe
Dec 19 21:02:50 <Lede> anyway, Log.v() is your friend in these type of situations :p
Dec 19 21:03:13 <jasonlee> has anyone used the android.net.http.* stuff for anything? i've just been using the included apache httpclient..
Dec 19 21:03:19 <Lede> and SQLException
Dec 19 21:04:11 <TimRiker> file:// urls don't work in the browser. is there a way to see the filesystem? ie look at an sd card etc?
Dec 19 21:05:20 <Lede> TimRiker: you can use the adb program to get a shell into the OS by running "adb shell" on the command line
Dec 19 21:05:49 <TimRiker> k. thx
Dec 19 21:09:25 <TimRiker> hmm. toolbox != busybox?
Dec 19 21:10:16 <davidw> Lede, yeah, I'm reading the log... it's just complaining:-)
Dec 19 21:10:41 <davidw>  databases/hecl_script.db does not exist in SQLiteDatabase.open()
Dec 19 21:10:46 <TimRiker> does anyone know what the costs/licensing terms are for someone wanting to make an android device?
Dec 19 21:11:19 <TimRiker> I don't see that explicitly covered anywhere online.
Dec 19 21:16:52 <davidw> it's open source
Dec 19 21:16:55 <davidw> or will be
Dec 19 21:17:01 <jasonlee> i was reading about hecl, good luck with that, sounds neat
Dec 19 21:17:05 <davidw> thanks!
Dec 19 21:17:38 <davidw> dinner time
Dec 19 21:19:20 <TimRiker> davidw: so the partner that provides the video codecs is planning to open source them as well? and freely distribute them? which likely violates some license someplace? is that what you are saying?
Dec 19 21:23:48 <Lede> i'm not a java expert, but is there something like C++'s std::pair in Java?
Dec 19 21:24:55 <Lede> nevermind, ill use a Map
Dec 19 21:26:55 <jerkface03> does anyone know if the android emulator has the bytecode instruction execution rate capped?
Dec 19 21:27:21 <dims> hmm...android does DRM :(
Dec 19 21:28:45 <NumBeast> dims, not that I kno
Dec 19 21:28:47 <NumBeast> know
Dec 19 21:28:49 <dims> http://davanum.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/android-support-for-drm/
Dec 19 21:29:26 <NumBeast> ouch
Dec 19 21:29:37 <Lede> explains all the files named DRM and RootKit :p
Dec 19 21:29:46 <NumBeast> it's probably limited though
Dec 19 21:30:18 <NumBeast> instead of does drm, think "supports the drm minority" ;)
Dec 19 21:33:27 <jerkface03> does anyone know if android supports runtime classes
Dec 19 21:41:00 <TimRiker> heh: # pv ... File input c:\bitstream\foreman_q64_15.m4v   oh yeah, this is DOS^WLinux. yeah you heard right.
Dec 19 21:41:07 <jerkface03> what kind of data am i supposed to feed into it? since android doesn't use class files
Dec 19 21:43:59 <jasta> ugh, bored today
Dec 19 21:47:24 <cybereagle> jerkface03, from my limited understanding so far, .dex files, which are .class files converted for dalvik by the dx utility
Dec 19 21:53:08 <jasta> jerkface03: https://opensource.luminis.net/subversion/oss/projects/osgi-android/trunk/framework/src/main/java/org/apache/felix/moduleloader/JarContent.java
Dec 19 21:54:07 <jasta> it's undocumented, though.
Dec 19 21:54:56 <jerkface03> well all the classloader methods are there
Dec 19 21:55:05 <jerkface03> i just dont know wtf im supposed to feed into it
Dec 19 21:55:14 <jasta> well, look at the url i gave you.
Dec 19 21:55:32 <Stephmw> dims: re DRM, it's a must tbh
Dec 19 21:55:56 <Stephmw> dims: otherwise operators just won't be able to sell phones with the platform as they wouldn't be able to license content
Dec 19 21:56:09 <Stephmw> dims: content producers on mobile phones are unbelievably anal about forward locking
Dec 19 21:56:31 <jasta> morrildl: are you aware that TimeZone.getDefault() always yields GMT?
Dec 19 22:06:18 <jerkface03> jasta: i'm not too sure i follow exactly what that class is doing, you got an android example that uses it?
Dec 19 22:06:48 <jasta> You are looking to dynamically load a .dex file at runtime, right?
Dec 19 22:08:06 <jerkface03> ya pretty much, load it and grab a class out of it for use in the application that loaded it
Dec 19 22:08:22 <jasta> then read this: http://blog.luminis.nl/luminis/entry/osgi_on_google_android_using
Dec 19 22:08:30 <jasta> That is the article surrounding that source code I sent to you.
Dec 19 22:08:48 <jasta> showing precisely how you might do what you want.
Dec 19 22:14:50 <cutmasta> morrildl, do you know which KeyManagers are implemented in the android sdk?
Dec 19 22:15:32 <cutmasta> or where i can look which are implemented?
Dec 19 22:15:38 <jerkface03> im not too sure i follow, why do you need to use this hack rather than just using the classloader? its obviously included for a reason
Dec 19 22:16:44 <cybereagle> well android doesn't use class files, it uses dex files which are bytecode for dalvik rather than a normal jvm
Dec 19 22:17:19 <jerkface03> i understand that, but what i'm saying is rather than pumping in the contents of a class file, does it take in the contents of a dex file?
Dec 19 22:17:35 <jasta> jerkface03: No, it does not.  That's why that hack is required.
Dec 19 22:17:54 <jerkface03> so if it doesn't take in a class file, or a dex file, what does it take in?
Dec 19 22:18:00 <jerkface03> or did google just add it in there to keep things pretty?
Dec 19 22:19:14 <jasta> I suspect it is a stub implementation, which has yet to be appropriately completed.
Dec 19 22:32:20 <morrildl> cutmasta: which class specifically are you referring to?
Dec 19 22:32:58 <morrildl> cutmasta: javax.net.ssl.KeyManager?
Dec 19 22:33:43 <cutmasta> yes
Dec 19 22:33:44 <cutmasta> th
Dec 19 22:33:46 <cutmasta> http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/6442753505ab872/fe6ea426d761173c?hl=en&lnk=st&q=ssl+android+#fe6ea426d761173c
Dec 19 22:34:11 <cutmasta> import javax.net.ServerSocketFactory;
Dec 19 22:34:11 <cutmasta> import javax.net.ssl.KeyManagerFactory;
Dec 19 22:34:11 <cutmasta> import javax.net.ssl.SSLContext;
Dec 19 22:34:11 <cutmasta> import javax.net.ssl.SSLServerSocketFactory;
Dec 19 22:34:42 <cutmasta> morrildl, if i run the source locally on my system , it works, but on the emu i get the error i posted on the ML
Dec 19 22:35:14 <morrildl> cutmasta: can you run it in the emu again, let it crash, and then mail me the contents of 'adb logcat'?
Dec 19 22:35:33 <cutmasta> morrildl, sure
Dec 19 22:35:38 <morrildl> thanks
Dec 19 22:40:26 <jasta> so did anyone attend the Google event?
Dec 19 22:40:32 <rwhitby> morrildl: Re: Topic.  I'm located in Australia - want to bring the Android show this way?
Dec 19 22:41:13 <cutmasta> morrildl, the error i posted on the ML, i could see it via the eclipse debugger
Dec 19 22:46:56 <TimRiker> morrildl: what are android's plans re CES?
Dec 19 22:48:02 <TimRiker> hmm. /me switches to wireless...
Dec 19 22:53:19 <Stephmw> TimRiker: not missed anything
Dec 19 22:53:43 <TimRiker> thx
Dec 19 23:00:19 <morrildl> TimRiker: CES?
Dec 19 23:00:23 <morrildl> You mean the expo?
Dec 19 23:20:10 <Stephmw> morrildl: likely :)
Dec 19 23:23:38 <cutmasta> bye all
Dec 20 00:05:04 <morrildl> rwhitby: Australia is most definitely on our radar.  Looks like we may not be able to get to you guys in the first pass, though
Dec 20 00:06:02 <duey> :o
Dec 20 00:06:17 <duey> and aus is close to nz!
Dec 20 00:06:35 <Dralspire> Are you a bathtub explorer? :D
Dec 20 00:16:39 <TimRiker> morrildl: yes. I mean the CES show in vega in January.
Dec 20 00:16:57 <TimRiker> I presume HTC would have something android related there? at least in a back room.
Dec 20 00:17:23 <TimRiker> no idea how close others are to demoing android on a device.
Dec 20 00:17:49 <TimRiker> shame it's not open source, so others could be porting it.
Dec 20 00:18:40 <TimRiker> other have tried to get the binaries running. here's one example: http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/21/android-neo1973
Dec 20 00:18:40 * Stephmw nods, very big shame
Dec 20 00:19:09 <TimRiker> so it's nice that google talks the talk. unfortunately that won't actually cut the mustard.
Dec 20 00:20:46 <TimRiker> personally I'd much rather have a linux device with a unix style os and a gui on top than something where all the world is java.
Dec 20 00:21:21 <TimRiker> oh, except all _our_ libraries which are compiled natively. if you don't like our's, tuff. it's not open source, so go elsewhere.
Dec 20 00:21:34 * TimRiker stops ranting. well, for a while anyway.
Dec 20 00:22:10 <morrildl> TimRiker: it would generally be the hardware makers who would have a presence at CES, I think
Dec 20 00:22:25 <morrildl> I'm unaware of any official Android presence there, although I just do the developer side of things
Dec 20 00:23:02 <morrildl> TimRiker: the source will be opened as soon we can open it, basically
Dec 20 00:23:13 <TimRiker> morrildl: ok. but it would be nice if there was a central place to talk to the hardware folks that are actually doing something with android. I'm sure there are app developers that would be eager to hand out demo apps to them for example.
Dec 20 00:23:51 <morrildl> each of the Alliance members has contributed something, and herding 34 businesscats toward a single goal is always a slow process :)
Dec 20 00:24:16 <TimRiker> morrildl: in looking at the filesystem, I find it very hard to believe that all the open source bits that have gone in are actually being shipped under the terms of the licenses.
Dec 20 00:24:56 <TimRiker> ie: anything GPL or LGPL requires that the source used to create each and every binary shipped to anyone be available when the binary ships.
Dec 20 00:25:03 <TimRiker> not "when we get around to it"
Dec 20 00:25:04 <morrildl> TimRiker: well, the Eclipse Plugin, Linux patches, and WebKit (IIRC) patches are all available of course
Dec 20 00:25:17 <morrildl> everything else will be under Apache 2.0
Dec 20 00:25:18 <TimRiker> and the libs? and bins in the sdk emulator image?
Dec 20 00:25:28 <morrildl> that's all custom code
Dec 20 00:25:40 <Dralspire> Nice
Dec 20 00:25:46 <morrildl> libc is derived from the libc from OpenBSD and NetBSD
Dec 20 00:25:51 <morrildl> with a little FreeBSD too I think
Dec 20 00:25:54 <TimRiker> so none of the "toolkit" binary came from any other project? it's all be real implemented from scratch?
Dec 20 00:25:59 <morrildl> yup
Dec 20 00:26:10 <TimRiker> libc will not run on a linux kernel.
Dec 20 00:26:36 <morrildl> I forget what the internal name for the tools is ("toolbox" I think?) and it's similar in concept to busybox, but it does not share code with busybox
Dec 20 00:26:38 <TimRiker> the reverse is true using the *bsd emulation layer. ie: glibc will run on *bsd.
Dec 20 00:26:49 <morrildl> TimRiker: it's not libc
Dec 20 00:26:58 <morrildl> it's *derived from* the BSD libc
Dec 20 00:27:05 <TimRiker> however the kernel interfaces are quite different tween a *bsd kernel and a linux kernel.
Dec 20 00:28:10 <TimRiker> personally, as the kernel is GPL, I'd much rather see LGPL libs than *BSD (ie: I'll show you my source if and when I feel like it) userspace.
Dec 20 00:28:52 <morrildl> Android will use the Apache 2.0 license
Dec 20 00:28:58 <TimRiker> but then I'd like a ssh and web servers on my phone too.
Dec 20 00:29:10 <TimRiker> morrildl: yes. so you've said many times. thx.
Dec 20 00:31:00 * TimRiker notes that the apache license does NOT promise that source code will ever be available.
Dec 20 00:31:58 <morrildl> Well, if you think we're lying to you, there's not really a whole lot to discuss
Dec 20 00:32:07 * Stephmw shakes TimRiker's hand, welcome to the doubter's club... my doubt is the manufacturer's future behaviour
Dec 20 00:32:57 <Dralspire> Haha there is no doubt, assume the worst :P
Dec 20 00:33:00 <TimRiker> morrildl: I don't think you're lying. I think you're confused, and making some poor choises, and implying that the source will be release soon, when in fact it could be years.
Dec 20 00:33:24 <TimRiker> for you to be lying, you would actually have to state a release date, which has not happens.
Dec 20 00:33:33 <TimRiker> it's hard to lie without saying anything.
Dec 20 00:33:44 <morrildl> I believe we've said "in 2008"
Dec 20 00:33:54 <morrildl> which is, of course, an unfortunately broad period of time :)
Dec 20 00:33:58 <TimRiker> not anywhere I've read.
Dec 20 00:34:32 <TimRiker> other than you hope _devices_ will ship in 2008. note that no promise of source is implied by that.
Dec 20 00:34:58 <morrildl> http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/press_111207.html
Dec 20 00:35:09 <morrildl> "The entire platform will be made available under the very liberal, developer-friendly Apache v2 open-source license in 2008."
Dec 20 00:35:16 <cybereagle> no, though them promising the source is a pretty heavy promise of the source lol. sure its not legally binding, but google is too good at pr to screw up THAT bad
Dec 20 00:35:37 <TimRiker> "the entire platform"  not "the source to the platform"
Dec 20 00:35:54 <morrildl> TimRiker: the devices date is actually more specific, stating "second half of 2008"
Dec 20 00:35:57 <TimRiker> so this says that some google customer is entitled to ship whatever source they are given.
Dec 20 00:36:09 <morrildl> huh
Dec 20 00:36:16 <morrildl> Interesting interpretation
Dec 20 00:36:17 <TimRiker> but not that the "source to the entire platform"
Dec 20 00:36:23 <TimRiker> will be available.
Dec 20 00:36:31 <morrildl> I guess I can see how you can arrive at that :)
Dec 20 00:36:45 <TimRiker> I read licenses very literally.
Dec 20 00:36:57 <morrildl> Considering that Apache 2.0 is a source license, it doesn't have much meaning to release a binary under Apache 2.0
Dec 20 00:36:59 <TimRiker> that's how they were written, so I recommend the same to others.
Dec 20 00:37:08 <TimRiker> morrildl: exactly.
Dec 20 00:37:15 <morrildl> so, fine
Dec 20 00:37:16 <TimRiker> that's why it really says nothing.
Dec 20 00:37:41 <morrildl> I assure you that that was simply an overlooked nuance of the press release
Dec 20 00:37:46 <morrildl> (that's not a license BTW, it's a press release)
Dec 20 00:37:50 <TimRiker> if we decide we feel like shipping some source to some of our customers, then they will be able to ship that to someone else.
Dec 20 00:37:55 <TimRiker> that's all you've said.
Dec 20 00:38:10 <morrildl> I can definitely assure you that the intention there was to release the source under Apache 2.0
Dec 20 00:38:30 <TimRiker> oh. well, that statement on irc makes me feel much, much better.
Dec 20 00:38:39 <duey> ..
Dec 20 00:39:06 <TimRiker> sure helps me get it running on my device.
Dec 20 00:39:07 <cybereagle> well, obviously, they can choose to release it "if they want". and they want to. i cant see what more they can really do at this point...
Dec 20 00:39:18 <cybereagle> they can hardly sign some contract with the rest of the world
Dec 20 00:39:40 <morrildl> TimRiker: http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/e07c6296c2f8f925/ce848a736913e04b?lnk=gst&q=morrildl+apache#ce848a736913e04b
Dec 20 00:39:52 <morrildl> perhaps a public mailing list doesn't make you feel any better either
Dec 20 00:40:01 <Stephmw> TimRiker: one thing to note is that morrildl is alas not in a position to state more than what's he's allowed to (and god knows, upper management everywhere always seem to screw up). No sense taking it out on him really
Dec 20 00:40:11 <morrildl> I'm pretty sure Rich Miner and Andy Rubin have both said as much on the record as well
Dec 20 00:40:14 <TimRiker> cybereagle: oh, they have full rights to not release anything. and I expect somethings won't be released. that's all fine by me. it's the press making it look like it's all open _without_ there being any real promise that it will be, and when currently it's not at all open.
Dec 20 00:40:49 <morrildl> heh
Dec 20 00:41:21 <Stephmw> morrildl: concerns aside, thank you for being online
Dec 20 00:41:22 <cybereagle> i suppose.. but they do seem to have every intention of opening it, no one seems tight lipped with their comments about it
Dec 20 00:41:32 <morrildl> Stephmw: hey, it's what I do :)
Dec 20 00:41:49 <morrildl> cybereagle: Yup. I'll say it wherever you want me to :)
Dec 20 00:42:00 <cybereagle> cool, my own pet irc monkey ;)
Dec 20 00:42:04 <morrildl> hahahahahaha
Dec 20 00:42:07 <duey> lol
Dec 20 00:42:12 * Dralspire provides the bananas
Dec 20 00:42:12 <TimRiker> morrildl: actually, the email post does make me feel a bit better. thx.
Dec 20 00:42:42 <Stephmw> TimRiker: as a consolation, a number of manufacturers, software houses, operators and VCs I consult for have had these issues raised internally already
Dec 20 00:42:42 * morrildl is also pretty sure someone's (rwhitby?) got a bot running that's archiving this channel too, anyway
Dec 20 00:42:55 <Stephmw> ~logs
Dec 20 00:42:57 <Stephmw> ~log
Dec 20 00:43:09 <Stephmw> hmm, yeah, I remember them being somewhere
Dec 20 00:43:24 <TimRiker> Stephmw: heh. yes. I'm coming across as more antagonistic than I mean to be. just trying to get a real handle on things. looking for absolutes, when there aren't many yet.
Dec 20 00:43:24 <cybereagle> not for a more personal gripe, any idea when network nio will actually work in the sdk? i've been messing with building a custom portion of apache harmony to get those components in a different namespace in the mean time, but it became a pain in the butt and i gave up for tonight
Dec 20 00:43:56 <rwhitby> morrildl: http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/android/
Dec 20 00:44:00 <Stephmw> TimRiker: I was at the first 'public' show of Android in London for FOM, and the language used was just as slippery
Dec 20 00:44:04 <TimRiker> you're welcome to have my bot in here. apt/ibot/infobot/jbot/purl are on like 80 channels and log them all.
Dec 20 00:44:34 <cybereagle> TimRiker, are you in the mobile dev world already? cos i'm not, and i otice a lot more cinicism from people who are vs those who arent. i expect the mobile world is pretty tight with things
Dec 20 00:45:13 <TimRiker> Stephmw: yes. I consult with many similar companies. Right now I tell them more or less what you've heard here. "Google seems to be building an open platform. Only time will tell if it really will be open."
Dec 20 00:46:10 <TimRiker> cybereagle: I'm in the embedded Linux world. uclibc, busybox, tuxscreen, buildroot, etc projects, former cto of lineo, etc.
Dec 20 00:46:25 <Stephmw> TimRiker: I also add that "If you were of the lot that considered Symbian, WinCE but not Linux 'Open', then Android will be just fine"
Dec 20 00:47:01 <TimRiker> Stephmw: sure. and the iPhone is open too, right?
Dec 20 00:47:07 <Stephmw> TimRiker: believe it or not, those other OSs are considered open from mobile phone manufacturer's point of view. Their definition of 'Open' is somewhat different.
Dec 20 00:47:15 <Dralspire> lol Tim, it has 2 screws, right?
Dec 20 00:47:25 <cybereagle> if anything, i'd be more concerned with Sun trying to spoil the party, based on some of the issues talked about here: http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/110/
Dec 20 00:47:36 <duey> why would sun care
Dec 20 00:47:37 <TimRiker> Dralspire: well Jobs keeps saying it's open, so it must be.
Dec 20 00:47:44 * Dralspire giggles
Dec 20 00:47:56 <Stephmw> duey: J2ME is a cash cow
Dec 20 00:48:27 <Stephmw> duey: Android is stepping on toes
Dec 20 00:48:35 <duey> sure but isn't android using harmony/
Dec 20 00:48:53 <Stephmw> that isn't relevant :)
Dec 20 00:48:59 <duey> why?
Dec 20 00:49:24 <duey> not to mention java is open source now
Dec 20 00:49:26 <morrildl> cybereagle: nio is being checked into.  It should get better in probably the next SDK
Dec 20 00:49:42 <morrildl> cybereagle: (meaning I entered the bug about it yesterday)
Dec 20 00:49:44 <cybereagle> aha excellent :)
Dec 20 00:49:47 <duey> sun might be angry but I don't see what they can do about it
Dec 20 00:49:50 <Stephmw> because it really doesn't matter where it comes from, they're entering into direct competition with Sun - Sun will have to respond, if nothing else to stop more such branching of Java-like platforms
Dec 20 00:50:00 <jerkface03> morrildl: that's good news! what about the classloader?
Dec 20 00:50:06 <cybereagle> duey, read that blog i linked, it may clarify what i meant
Dec 20 00:50:12 <cybereagle> i'm no expert on these matters
Dec 20 00:50:27 <cybereagle> but based on that i can see them giving it a go if they felt annoyed enough
Dec 20 00:50:31 <Stephmw> duey: you were around for J#, right?
Dec 20 00:50:34 <morrildl> jerkface03: what isn't working?
Dec 20 00:50:50 <jerkface03> it's not that it isnt' working, its that i there's no documentation on how to get it to work
Dec 20 00:50:58 <jerkface03> you can't feed it normal class file information because class files aren't supproted
Dec 20 00:51:08 <jerkface03> so what exactly are you supposed to feed it to dynamically load up a class
Dec 20 00:51:11 <Stephmw> cybereagle: talking of patents on the standard classlib... they in fact do.
Dec 20 00:51:27 <TimRiker> duey: "java is open source now" ... there ya go drinking the koolaid again.
Dec 20 00:51:27 <morrildl> jerkface03: well, you should be able to load a class which exists in the .dex but has not been specifically imported
Dec 20 00:51:31 <Stephmw> cybereagle: they've got a number of (dubious IMO) software patents covering a number of basic design patterns
Dec 20 00:51:54 <morrildl> jerkface03: but as you point out, currently there is no way to do some of the fancier classloader stuff like generate them on the fly from bits downloaded over the network and so on
Dec 20 00:51:57 <jerkface03> what about runtime classes, lets say the class i want is contained in a dex files that i download off of the internet
Dec 20 00:52:10 <TimRiker> Stephmw: yeah, that post is full of half truths, and non-truths. :)
Dec 20 00:52:12 <morrildl> jerkface03: that's in the roadmap for Dalvik, but if I had to guess I'd say it probably won't make it into the 1.0 release
Dec 20 00:52:14 <cybereagle> figures. lets hope most are never tested. i remember reading when MS tried to assert a patent on "double-click". i'm all for protecting *real* IP, but thats just insane
Dec 20 00:52:30 <Stephmw> TimRiker: the patent bit I could backup, under NDA :)
Dec 20 00:52:32 <jerkface03> morrildl: ahh, so maybe in a couple of years it'll be added in?
Dec 20 00:52:32 <duey> im sure google has enough lawyers to consult on the issue
Dec 20 00:52:44 <TimRiker> Stephmw: no need.
Dec 20 00:52:57 <Stephmw> TimRiker: suffice to say that I had to do a search
Dec 20 00:53:01 <morrildl> jerkface03: well, I'd hope sooner than that :)  We aren't just going to stop and say "Welp, that's it -- Android is DONE." when the first device ships ;)
Dec 20 00:53:03 <cybereagle> yeah, big companies face off all the time, they all usually come out pretty much ok
Dec 20 00:53:24 <cybereagle> but my main point was i'd be more worried of sun kicking uop a stink than google
Dec 20 00:53:36 <jerkface03> morrildl: that's good to hear. thanks for the info.
Dec 20 00:53:37 * TimRiker has done a few too. alas, when you know a lot about licenses and patents, others seem to want to keep asking you questions.
Dec 20 00:53:52 <Stephmw> morrildl: I do have a 'future' question: What's to stop a non-OHA member from shipping a slightly-incompatible (through bugfixes for instance) version of Android?
Dec 20 00:54:26 <cybereagle> i was blissfully ignorant of licensing until a few months ago when i went on a research binge. as i decieed to release some stuff i wanted to do it "right"
Dec 20 00:54:46 <TimRiker> Stephmw: or perhaps by putting a normal embedded linux stack under it....
Dec 20 00:54:46 <Stephmw> TimRiker: aye - once you've warped your brain sufficiently to grok licenses, everything else stop making sense :)
Dec 20 00:55:13 <cybereagle> i started noticing loads of content on the web that it was technically illegal for anyone to really use lol
Dec 20 00:55:14 <Stephmw> TimRiker: or basically anything that affects any of the JNI-like interfaces to the Real World
Dec 20 00:55:23 <Stephmw> cybereagle: aye
Dec 20 00:55:40 <morrildl> Stephmw: legally, nothing.  However we wouldn't be doing this if we didn't think there was real (if hidden) demand for a true open platform
Dec 20 00:55:53 <morrildl> Stephmw: we think the value proposition of Android will be compelling enough that people won't be MOTIVATED to do that
Dec 20 00:55:54 <TimRiker> then Android will truly be java. "compile once, debug everywhere"
Dec 20 00:56:02 <Stephmw> :D
Dec 20 00:56:06 <Stephmw> TimRiker: Oi! I like Java
Dec 20 00:56:18 <morrildl> Stephmw: and if we are wrong, we will have failed, and you can all mock us ;)
Dec 20 00:56:42 <Stephmw> morrildl: no mocking from me, just "ah well, next!"
Dec 20 00:57:20 <TimRiker> I have nothing against the language. but I prefer my embedded applications pre-optimized. I don't like using my battery life converting p-code to binary code. let alone doing it more than once per run.
Dec 20 00:57:21 <cybereagle> even if it fails, just by having a go it will pave the way for an open platform
Dec 20 00:58:05 <Stephmw> TimRiker: it's not so bad with Jazelle ;)
Dec 20 00:59:09 <Stephmw> TimRiker: ... but specs for that aren't public either, so it's a dead end for FOSS
Dec 20 00:59:17 <cybereagle> you can cross compile c for it too, though thats not "part of android" per say heh
Dec 20 00:59:22 <TimRiker> it's too bad that google seems to think there are no capable system level developers in the world. they are happy to work with the kernel community. that's a start. but it sounds like they won't ship the system level sources till there are devices already shipping with the "finished" system space apps and libs. bugs and all.
Dec 20 00:59:50 <TimRiker> so the next folks who actually get to see the code and fix the bugs will end up with incompatible devices.
Dec 20 01:00:10 <TimRiker> nice picture of an "open" world. sounds more like CE to me.
Dec 20 01:00:56 <TimRiker> Stephmw: where "not so bad" == you waste less of my battery power, instead of wasting none at all?
Dec 20 01:01:53 <TimRiker> cybereagle: yes, but I don't see how a compiled app will be able to display on screen. it would have to call java code from C. that's butt ugly. where the reverse is easy.
Dec 20 01:02:06 <Stephmw> TimRiker: I didn't say it was great ;) I prefer Jazelle used as an assist technology
Dec 20 01:02:38 <cybereagle> TimRiker, true, i havent looked at it myself, but theres some peopole who have with sites out there
Dec 20 01:02:45 <TimRiker> so I suppose one could build a native app, with just a dalvik UI on top. that's not the point, the UI of most apps will burn up the cpu more than the back end.
Dec 20 01:02:47 <cybereagle> but i would think you're right
Dec 20 01:03:14 <cybereagle> i think i remember seeing someone use the frame buffer directly or something like that
Dec 20 01:03:26 <cybereagle> but yeah, its definately a "hack"
Dec 20 01:03:53 <Stephmw> cybereagle: I'll own up to the framebuffer
Dec 20 01:04:03 <Stephmw> cybereagle: or do you mean natively?
Dec 20 01:04:07 <TimRiker> cybereagle: yes. but you need to still get hide/restore events, and be in the app (read kill) stack, have java like save/restore features for that etc.
Dec 20 01:04:23 <TimRiker> not very C friendly apis I'm afraid.
Dec 20 01:05:09 <TimRiker> and it's not the normal framebuffer either. there's no /dev/fb0 for example, though device fingerprints do show a fb device driver loaded.
Dec 20 01:05:27 <TimRiker> I've not gotten to the details of it yet, that's just from poking around.
Dec 20 01:05:56 <TimRiker> there certainly not a lot of information on "here's how to build an app in C". heh
Dec 20 01:06:16 <cybereagle> none officially i dont think
Dec 20 01:06:22 <TimRiker> well, I hafta run..
Dec 20 01:07:00 <TimRiker> morrildl: don't take any of this too personally. I've been in the embedded Linux space for quite some time. I need to get out more. :)
Dec 20 01:08:04 <TimRiker> morrildl: oh, and the offer of a channel bot stands. my bot's quite popular. course the google interface is broken cause google won't give out api keys anymore. oh. there I go again, ranting. :)
Dec 20 01:08:16 <cybereagle> hehe
Dec 20 01:23:06 <morrildl> eh well
Dec 20 02:15:51 <jasta> Google has left the building?
Dec 20 02:15:51 <jasta> :)
Dec 20 02:16:21 <cybereagle> lol
Dec 20 02:20:05 <jasta> i personally plan to get a lot done during the holiday break :)
Dec 20 02:20:31 <cybereagle> same. but there's always a lot more family stuff around christmas than i expect lol
Dec 20 02:20:35 <jasta> i am not motivated to start my "big" ambitious project until Google gives a little.  i don't want to develop it on a closed source platform.
Dec 20 02:20:50 <cybereagle> did you see the conversation earlier about that?
Dec 20 02:20:54 <jasta> no?
Dec 20 02:21:06 <duey> sigh
Dec 20 02:21:10 <cybereagle> too big to paste
Dec 20 02:21:13 <jasta> paraphrase.
Dec 20 02:21:20 <duey> its not a closed platform
Dec 20 02:21:24 <duey> get the code from harmony
Dec 20 02:21:30 <duey> who cares about the android code
Dec 20 02:21:30 <cybereagle> well someone was expressing a lot of concerns, and morrildl was doing his best to reassure lol
Dec 20 02:21:35 <duey> its just a bunch of if statements
Dec 20 02:21:35 <jasta> duey: i'm not interested in Harmony, i'm interested in the android.* packages.
Dec 20 02:21:44 <duey> why though?
Dec 20 02:21:47 <cybereagle> to be honest its not a big issue for me personally
Dec 20 02:21:56 <duey> yeah neither
Dec 20 02:22:00 <cybereagle> but i really have no doubts they're gonna release that code
Dec 20 02:22:02 <duey> i wouldn't look at it if they gave the code
Dec 20 02:22:09 <jasta> duey: because it is useful to read to decipher implementation best practices and other magic.
Dec 20 02:22:14 <duey> lol
Dec 20 02:22:27 <duey> this pre-beta stuff anyway
Dec 20 02:22:33 <cybereagle> if i read it its not gonna be for that, its gonna be to find cool hacks lol
Dec 20 02:22:38 <duey> best practice is if it works well use it
Dec 20 02:22:49 <jasta> cybereagle: i am operating on the assumption that google will be releasing source code some time during the open registration (jan to march).  i wonder if that assumption is sensible
Dec 20 02:23:06 <duey> to be honest i think the competition should end  later
Dec 20 02:23:07 <cybereagle> source or no source, they fix bugs pretty promptly just from you mentioning them in here. i like that a LOT
Dec 20 02:23:23 <jasta> duey: if it works, it's best practice?
Dec 20 02:23:29 <duey> hah yeah
Dec 20 02:23:31 <jasta> if you're serious, you're stupid.
Dec 20 02:23:37 <duey> if it works well
Dec 20 02:23:50 <jasta> cybereagle: me too.
Dec 20 02:24:22 <jasta> i have found what i've needed by decompiling a few of the class files but i hope that does not need to continue much longer.
Dec 20 02:24:36 <jasta> specifically when implementing custom views and more advanced functionality in content providers.
Dec 20 02:25:08 <duey> i guess the need to do that illustrates a lack in docs
Dec 20 02:25:19 <cybereagle> ahh the android class files. the guy in here before wanted the native code stuffs too
Dec 20 02:25:37 <cybereagle> it'll come, but i think the java source will *definately* come
Dec 20 02:25:40 <jasta> cybereagle: that should be opened as well.  i wanted to supply my own patched freetype so that fonts don't render so ugly anymore.
Dec 20 02:25:58 <jasta> but i can't do that because freetype has been integrated into SGL.
Dec 20 02:27:01 <jasta> duey: in a sense, but that is also because in nearly every case you are pioneering something new and have no existing work from which to work.
Dec 20 02:27:37 <jasta> and that is when source is most useful, when it solves a problem not well understood.
Dec 20 02:27:49 <cybereagle> of course devs that come after us will have loads of examples and docs, and we'll be saying "why in my day...."
Dec 20 02:28:35 <jasta> cybereagle: yes, they will.  but i'm fine with that, especially if i'm enabled with the tools i need to work efficiently.  one such tool is source code.
Dec 20 02:29:23 <jasta> source code in this case is also very nice bceause it offers a convenient way to peek into the heads of the engineers who envisioned all the interesting pieces of the platform.
Dec 20 02:29:33 <cybereagle> well i think you just gotta see what we have now as a bonus. in a sense they havent released android, but we have it anyway
Dec 20 02:29:42 <cybereagle> which makes no sense, but its 2am, bear with me
Dec 20 02:29:43 <cybereagle> :P
Dec 20 02:29:59 <jasta> cybereagle: Google knows better.
Dec 20 02:30:31 <jasta> Part of the reason Google makes such a big splash in general is because it does not generally talk about its vaporware.  They usually follow the pattern of announce, then release in very short succession.
Dec 20 02:31:02 <jasta> Android was a bit back-handed to announce an open source platform and give us a closed source one :)
Dec 20 02:31:37 <duey> maybe its just not ready?
Dec 20 02:31:39 <cybereagle> i get the impression they never intended to release it yet, but decided they should, even though the codes not stable enough to release
Dec 20 02:31:47 <jasta> But, I'm happy to operate on the assumption that it is coming soon.  If it doesn't, well, I suppose they will be sabotaging their own master plan to have open source engineers give a shit about their platform.
Dec 20 02:32:15 <cybereagle> lack of source code makes my reverse engineer senses tingle anyway
Dec 20 02:32:17 <cybereagle> hehe
Dec 20 02:35:02 <jasta> I'm also excited to have a hacked phone running Android, which would be much easier to accomplish with source code.
Dec 20 02:35:19 <jasta> There are plenty of handsets that can run Linux which would be excellent targets for Android.
Dec 20 02:36:56 <jasta> anyway, i want to get back to work :)
Dec 20 02:56:09 <jasta> hmm
Dec 20 02:56:26 <jasta> i should come up with some heuristics to try to get around sites taht do not have full-text rss feeds, or do not have rss feeds with inlined links.
Dec 20 02:56:54 <jasta> i think it could be done easily, actually.  just load the URL pointed to and try to screen scrape the section that seems to apply based on fuzzy text matching
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Dec 20 02:59:57 2007