**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec 27 02:59:57 2007
Dec 27 04:28:14 <jasta> back from boarding and trying out my new contacts
Dec 27 04:28:19 <jasta> fun time :)
Dec 27 07:59:23 <gan1> anyone knows what Android's SGL is?
Dec 27 09:29:16 <Blastur> hello
Dec 27 09:30:01 <Blastur> im trying to understand android.. what freedom will you have? to me, it seems like Android is like J2ME, only with Dalvik VM and a more modern java lib backend
Dec 27 09:30:29 <Blastur> can you for example, reload the entire linux kernel on a Android device? add your own kernel modules etc?
Dec 27 09:52:21 <edcba> Blastur: i don't think so
Dec 27 09:52:40 <Blastur> :8
Dec 27 09:53:16 <edcba> but i don't see why you would need it
Dec 27 09:56:49 <Blastur> well, how will this really differ from J2ME?
Dec 27 09:57:03 <Blastur> imo, J2ME has been a big disappointment to mobile development
Dec 27 09:57:29 <Blastur> so many different versions, it takes forEVER to get a new JSR pushed to "standard" etc
Dec 27 14:05:17 <dmikulic> hello. Im new to Android. Could somene explain me something. Is android having a /home folder like other distros? If no  Where does he store the data like? example in future images that came from a camera...
Dec 27 18:53:44 <tulcod> hey
Dec 27 18:53:51 <tulcod> this is for the google android project, right?
Dec 27 18:53:57 <tulcod> it takes ages to boot in the emulator
Dec 27 18:54:21 <tulcod> it's been booting for like, 5 minutes already
Dec 27 18:54:32 <tulcod> gotta say, my pc is not the fastest
Dec 27 18:54:39 <tulcod> but if this is expected to run on a mobile phone...
Dec 27 18:56:34 <tulcod> is this just a first time thing?
Dec 27 18:58:25 <tulcod> oh, it booted
Dec 27 18:58:40 <tulcod> low fps tho. can THAT be my pc, then?
Dec 27 18:58:58 <tulcod> (I got like, athlon 1500+ with 128KB L2 or something like that)
Dec 27 18:59:45 <jasonlee> the emulator takes a fair amount of resources
Dec 27 19:02:53 <tulcod> jasonlee: hm, yeah, 20% of my 512MB ram + some swap here
Dec 27 19:03:12 <tulcod> o.0 9MB ram free, 150 MB swap used
Dec 27 19:03:13 <tulcod> lol
Dec 27 19:03:22 <tulcod> I guess I'll have to switch off openoffice :p
Dec 27 19:03:42 <tulcod> jasonlee: so that indeed will make a difference. will it be a bit slow anyhow?
Dec 27 19:04:24 <Lede> emulating a different system is slow, i doubt it will run slow on a real mobile phone
Dec 27 19:04:29 <jasonlee> tulcod: quite possilby.. there have been a lot of complaints about it on the mailing lists, i think you need about 2GB of ram for it to run smoothly with no swapping
Dec 27 19:04:48 <jasonlee> Lede: yeah, i expect the same..
Dec 27 19:04:48 <tulcod> /o/
Dec 27 19:05:05 <tulcod> Lede: well, yeah, but this is a PC, not a mobile phone emulating a mobile phone
Dec 27 19:05:15 <tulcod> cybereagle?
Dec 27 19:05:26 <tulcod> I know that guy lol
Dec 27 19:06:07 <tulcod> okay... also, any chance I can use dvorak instead of qwerty?
Dec 27 20:41:07 <jasta> got 2 hours without the girlfriend, time to start hacking :)
Dec 27 20:41:15 <billmeltsner> heh
Dec 27 20:41:36 <jasta> i did end up getting my vnc server working
Dec 27 20:42:02 <jasta> the performance is not good and there are a few bugs but i am confident they can be solved in a single day
Dec 27 20:42:38 <billmeltsner> Nice
Dec 27 20:42:48 <jasta> the biggest problem with performance is that the hextile encoding normally chosen in the protocol assumes that a large portion of the screen has the same single-pixel background color.
Dec 27 20:43:11 <jasta> android, however, uses a checkered background of two different, but similar colors.
Dec 27 20:43:30 <jasta> so the hextile algorithm has to send many different grids with no optimization of any kind
Dec 27 20:43:32 <billmeltsner> Ah. Yeah, that could cause issues.
Dec 27 20:44:05 <jasta> so, i'm going to hack it to detect the checkered background and difference the pixels.
Dec 27 20:44:31 <jasta> that should improve performance significantly
Dec 27 20:44:55 <jasta> did i tell you that i found that android already has a vnc server in libsurfaceflinger.so?
Dec 27 20:44:58 <jasta> and it works, too.
Dec 27 20:45:05 <billmeltsner> Really?
Dec 27 20:45:17 <jasta> yup.  check out my blog for info devtcg.org
Dec 27 20:45:21 <cybereagle> its such a small screen i wouldnt think performance would be a big issue, but the emu does run slow so perhaps thats why
Dec 27 20:45:40 <cybereagle> nice find on the lib too
Dec 27 20:45:40 <jasta> cybereagle: the performance problems aren't on the emulator or the server, actually.  they are on the client.
Dec 27 20:46:15 <jasta> the goal was to use my cell phone as a vnc client in full screen mode to simulate android.
Dec 27 20:46:31 <jasta> so the cell phone (real hardware, 250MHz or so) has to be able to process the servers encodings efficiently.
Dec 27 20:46:35 <cybereagle> need pics of it in action when you ironed the bugs out, i dont have a phone i could run it on myself
Dec 27 20:47:05 <jasta> the built-in android vnc server uses only the raw encoding, with no incremental updates.  it is essentially blasting the client with 320x240x2 bitmaps, which causes the cell phone processor to choke.
Dec 27 20:47:19 <jasta> cybereagle: i have a few pics, but theyre on my buddies camera and he's not here.  i'll get them soon :)
Dec 27 20:47:41 <jasta> anyway, so the hextile encoding i am using in my server improves things quite a bit, but it still suffers from the fact that the background-color optimization doesn't work at all.
Dec 27 20:47:57 <jasta> fixing that should be a big improvement, and might even make it usable :)
Dec 27 20:48:14 <cybereagle> perhaps there's a way to simply change the background on android?
Dec 27 20:48:39 <jasta> although i am having some issues just dealing with the framebuffer capture right now.  i found some reference code to assist me in constructing the server (libvncserver and an existing fbvncserver for the ipaq devices), but it seems to be wildly incorrect.
Dec 27 20:48:47 <jasta> so i'm having to gradually throw it aside and reinvent everything.
Dec 27 20:49:20 <jasta> cybereagle: i thought about that to test my assumption, and i think i am right.  i changed my program to use the white theme (which has a single pixel background), and the performance skyrocketed.
Dec 27 20:50:21 <cybereagle> aha, well looks like you pretty much got it nailed then :)
Dec 27 20:50:42 <jasta> btw, it's awesome looking ;)
Dec 27 20:50:58 <jasta> i was tinkering with it on my phone a couple of days ago and it looked very nice.
Dec 27 20:51:03 <cybereagle> :D
Dec 27 20:51:53 <jasta> the built-in vnc server is stupidly broken though.  i decided to abandon it completely.
Dec 27 20:51:55 <cybereagle> i haven't done any android dev since before christmas, i gave up on my custom harmony lib, they're gonna fix the issue soon (after holidays!) by the sounds of it anyway
Dec 27 20:52:02 <cybereagle> so i'm waiting for that to continue
Dec 27 20:52:13 <billmeltsner> I just want bluetooth so I can make my current project actually multiplayere
Dec 27 20:52:16 <billmeltsner> -e
Dec 27 20:52:39 <jasta> after i finish this vnc server thing i'm gonna move on to a card game suite.  my girlfriend loves solitaire games :)
Dec 27 20:52:56 <billmeltsner> I've always liked double solitaire
Dec 27 20:52:57 <jasta> my plan was to actually let her "play" the game using the VNC server i create :)
Dec 27 20:53:05 <cybereagle> nice
Dec 27 20:53:09 <billmeltsner> which isn't actually solitaire because it's two player
Dec 27 20:53:21 <jasta> the best part is that the vnc server performance is actually good enough to work over the cell phone data connection :)
Dec 27 20:53:24 <jasta> i tested it :)
Dec 27 20:53:26 <cybereagle> you could do multiplayer card games via xmpp or infrared or something
Dec 27 20:53:53 <billmeltsner> My game is set up to work over bluetooth... I just can't test it :P
Dec 27 20:53:56 <cybereagle> now i want to see pics of vnc chained over 3 phones in a row :P
Dec 27 20:54:42 <jasta> alright, i only have a few hours so i'd better make the most of them :)
Dec 27 20:55:11 <billmeltsner> I don't have a girlfriend to consume my programming time
Dec 27 20:55:16 <billmeltsner> I'm not sure if that makes me lucky or unlucky
Dec 27 20:55:51 <cybereagle> my girl is thousands of miles away in canada :(
Dec 27 20:58:56 <Stephmw> cybereagle: way to increase your productivity :)
Dec 27 20:59:38 <cybereagle> hehe
Dec 27 21:00:05 <Lede> we are code monkeys
Dec 27 21:00:12 <Lede> i mean androids
Dec 27 21:00:17 <Lede> .)
Dec 27 21:00:25 <billmeltsner> O
Dec 27 21:00:25 <billmeltsner> |-
Dec 27 21:00:25 <billmeltsner> __
Dec 27 21:00:32 <Lede> haha
Dec 27 21:00:52 <Lede> "It's alive!"
Dec 27 21:03:55 <cybereagle>    o   o
Dec 27 21:03:55 <cybereagle>     \-/
Dec 27 21:03:55 <cybereagle>   /     \
Dec 27 21:04:00 <cybereagle> oh damnit
Dec 27 21:04:13 <cybereagle> why didnt that paste right :(
Dec 27 21:04:20 <cybereagle> half the chars are missing lol
Dec 27 21:04:42 <cybereagle> it must be a sign: "stop wasting time" :P
Dec 27 21:04:42 <jasta> oh boy, none of this :)
Dec 27 21:17:55 <jasta> hehe oops
Dec 27 21:17:59 <jasta> i ran out of space on /data in the emulator ;)
Dec 27 21:24:31 <jasta> you know, in all this testing, i have crashed my real windows mobile smartphone more than i've crashed the android emulator.
Dec 27 21:28:04 <billmeltsner> amazing, innit?
Dec 27 21:29:08 <absentia> no
Dec 27 22:10:38 <Guest935> Anybody awake?
Dec 27 22:11:08 <jasta> yup
Dec 27 22:11:16 <Guest935> Cool.
Dec 27 22:11:37 <Guest935> I was wondering if anyone could give me some help with Eclipse and the Android SDK.
Dec 27 22:11:51 <jasta> that depends, have you bothered to help yourself yet?
Dec 27 22:12:01 <Guest935> Yes.
Dec 27 22:12:06 <jasta> are you sure?
Dec 27 22:12:24 <Guest935> I searched around google a bit.
Dec 27 22:12:42 <jasta> well, ask your question.
Dec 27 22:13:48 <Guest935> I've loaded the sample scripts into Eclipse, and try to run them. Whenver the emulator runs, the phone comes up, but nothing happens. All I see is "Android_" and then a red line.
Dec 27 22:13:52 <tulcod> how should I switch off the emulator? use the power off button at the side of the phone? or simply close the screen?
Dec 27 22:14:07 <tulcod> Guest935: it's booting, takes a long time
Dec 27 22:14:17 <tulcod> Guest935: takes like, 10-20 minutes here :p
Dec 27 22:14:22 <Guest935> Really?
Dec 27 22:14:23 <tulcod> well, maybe not 20
Dec 27 22:14:27 <jasta> tulcod: i close the screen.  are you concerned there will be a problem there?
Dec 27 22:14:43 <tulcod> jasta: well, it's not the way I shutdown my pc ;)
Dec 27 22:14:47 <Guest935> I've let it sit for a bit, but it just sits at a red line.
Dec 27 22:15:00 <jasta> Guest935: the red line is the kernel boot sequence.
Dec 27 22:15:06 <jasta> the android_ portion is the bootloader.
Dec 27 22:15:09 <Guest935> Hmmm. Nifty.
Dec 27 22:15:23 * Guest935 lets it sit.
Dec 27 22:15:43 <jasta> my machine, and i think most as well, can boot android in well under a minute.
Dec 27 22:16:20 <tulcod> jasta: lol, good for you then. I have an athlon 1500+ with 256KB of L2, at 1333MHz
Dec 27 22:16:28 <tulcod> seriously takes at least 5 minutes
Dec 27 22:16:32 <tulcod> haven't really timed it
Dec 27 22:16:50 <jasta> that may not have anything to do with the performance of your CPU, of course.
Dec 27 22:17:01 <jasta> there may be something else unusually wrong with your host os, for example.
Dec 27 22:17:30 <jasta> android uses qemu to simply boot an ARM linux kernel.  nothing unusual going on there.
Dec 27 22:17:55 <jasta> qemu may not be correctly optimized for your platform, or you may have something broken that you are not aware of which is causing extra delays.
Dec 27 22:18:01 <jasta> or, perhaps, your processor is just a slow piece of crap :)
Dec 27 22:20:12 <tulcod> jasta: well, I think the latter, cause I can't see what would be broken in such a way
Dec 27 22:20:20 <tulcod> jasta: and my pc's always been slow, I guess
Dec 27 22:20:44 <jasta> the performance of your memory could also be a factor.
Dec 27 22:21:49 <tulcod> jasta: hm, that's used intensively, huh? I don't think that this is ddr2...
Dec 27 22:24:15 <jasta> it's a possibility, yes.
Dec 27 22:25:38 <tulcod> well, then I guess I should get a new mobo+cpu+memory
Dec 27 22:33:36 <tulcod> is there like, an api?
Dec 27 22:33:59 <jasta> what?
Dec 27 22:34:27 <tulcod> an api of the sdk
Dec 27 22:34:36 <tulcod> online
Dec 27 22:34:51 <jasta> you aren't making any sense.
Dec 27 22:35:12 <tulcod> ah, found it, nvm
Dec 27 22:35:23 <tulcod> pretty much this: http://code.google.com/android/reference/packages.html
Dec 27 22:36:02 <jasta> you fond something other than what you requested, but sure.
Dec 27 22:37:17 <tulcod> jasta: why?
Dec 27 22:37:24 <tulcod> jasta: oh, api REFERENCE, lol
Dec 27 22:37:26 <tulcod> jasta: sry
Dec 27 22:37:28 <jasta> no.
Dec 27 22:37:40 <jasta> what does API stand for?
Dec 27 22:37:47 <tulcod> application programming interface?
Dec 27 22:37:53 <tulcod> or program
Dec 27 22:37:57 <jasta> and what does SDK stand for?
Dec 27 22:37:57 <tulcod> prog**
Dec 27 22:38:02 <tulcod> software development kit
Dec 27 22:38:06 <jasta> and what does of mean?
Dec 27 22:38:10 <tulcod> sdk?
Dec 27 22:38:17 <jasta> of means sdk?
Dec 27 22:38:25 <tulcod> an env to make apps for some bigger project?
Dec 27 22:38:51 <jasta> again, what does "of" mean?
Dec 27 22:39:05 <tulcod> you mean the english word?
Dec 27 22:39:09 * jasta nods
Dec 27 22:39:18 <tulcod> :-/
Dec 27 22:39:52 <jasta> by your definitions, you asked for an "application programming interface" of the "software development kit".
Dec 27 22:40:11 <jasta> does that sound like correct syntax and subject arrangement?
Dec 27 22:40:20 <tulcod> jasta: well, yeah
Dec 27 22:40:23 <tulcod> jasta: that's incorrect
Dec 27 22:40:29 <tulcod> jasta: sry
Dec 27 22:40:45 <jasta> because, to me, it sounds like you asked for a programming interface to the SDK, instead of one to Android.  the SDK facilitates using that API, but the API is not for it.
Dec 27 22:40:46 <tulcod> jasta: you're not linking to an sdk, are you?
Dec 27 22:40:55 <tulcod> exactly
Dec 27 22:41:03 <tulcod> but in this case, the sdk contains android
Dec 27 22:41:05 <jasta> so, what you asked for was nonsense.
Dec 27 22:41:35 <tulcod> jasta: but you knew what I meant :-/
Dec 27 22:41:44 <jasta> no, the SDK does not contain Android.  While the SDK is the only package necessary to develop on Android, the two terms are not symantically joined.
Dec 27 22:42:01 <jasta> If anything, Android contains the SDK, being that it is semantically superior.
Dec 27 22:42:11 <tulcod> :-/
Dec 27 22:42:31 <jasta> The correct use of syntax and prepositions is important to being well understood by your peers.  I encourage you to try it in the future.
Dec 27 22:42:39 <tulcod> done whining?
Dec 27 22:43:20 <jasta> Lecturing would be more appropriate.  Should we move into a lesson on the importance of semantics?
Dec 27 22:45:27 <jasta> Just trying to get you to think more precisely.  Computers are unflinchingly rigid, afterall.  They will not do any of the thinking for you.
Dec 27 22:46:18 <tulcod> jasta: I can think precise, it's just that it's kinda late here
Dec 27 22:46:30 <tulcod> jasta: and this is frikkin irc, be realistic
Dec 27 22:48:40 <jasta> well, i'm back to coding.  it was only advice.
Dec 27 22:49:43 <tulcod> gl
Dec 27 23:04:40 <billmeltsner> Wow, I didn't expect to see a grammar lecture in #android.
Dec 27 23:04:49 <billmeltsner> Thanks jasta, you made my day :D
Dec 27 23:05:19 <jasta> just a little game i like to play :)
Dec 27 23:31:23 <jasta> teehee, my kernel driver exploded the emulator :)
Dec 27 23:53:37 <jasta> sweet, keyboard emulation is fully integrated now
Dec 28 00:02:19 <jasta> wait, no it's not.  i got the scancodes wrong :\
Dec 28 00:22:33 <haavi> ehee
Dec 28 00:22:49 <jasta> well, only a few of them it seems.
Dec 28 00:22:58 <jasta> but 2 big ones are wrong: page up and escape :\
Dec 28 00:24:37 <haavi> ya
Dec 28 00:26:36 <haavi> fully emulated for US keyboard layout perhaps
Dec 28 00:26:47 <haavi> I need my едц =)
Dec 28 02:08:14 <Skfarek> hi
Dec 28 02:09:17 <Skfarek> is it androif from google, chanel?
Dec 28 02:09:21 <Skfarek> s/n/nn
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Dec 28 02:59:56 2007