**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jan 03 02:59:56 2008
Jan 03 03:04:06 <jerkface03> looks like it
Jan 03 03:21:21 <jasta> kind of embarrassing for google ;)
Jan 03 03:29:19 <jasta> i really don't care that much, personally.  but still, they should
Jan 03 03:29:21 <jasta> oops
Jan 03 03:29:34 <jasta> accidentally hit up enter, didnt mean to type that ;)
Jan 03 04:31:44 <zgold> Good evening
Jan 03 04:41:03 <jasta> hello
Jan 03 04:48:50 <dohtem> hi
Jan 03 04:56:03 <zgold> jasta: Just to confirm; theres no way (even expensively) to marshall a complicated (non-primitive) object from activity to activity?
Jan 03 04:57:09 <jasta> zgold: Well, there is *A* way.
Jan 03 04:57:18 <jasta> if the non-primitive is serializable, ...
Jan 03 04:58:21 <jasta> Although it is my sincere hope that this changes in the future.  You should be able to efficiently share resources from activity to activity within your own application.  Of course, you would have to understand that you tear down the idea of being able to replace parts of your application.
Jan 03 04:58:54 <zgold> heh
Jan 03 04:58:59 <zgold> Well its either that
Jan 03 04:59:03 <zgold> or bounce an intent a couple times
Jan 03 04:59:31 <zgold> Activity A is connected to service S.  Activity A launches Activity B.  B needs to talk S... has to go through A
Jan 03 05:01:15 <jasta> actually, i would hope that bindService() would not impose enough overhead to consider this problem.
Jan 03 05:01:49 <zgold> There was some reason i decided against rebinding
Jan 03 05:02:02 <zgold> I probably couldn't think of an easy way to get one of the arguements necessary to find the service
Jan 03 05:03:47 <zgold> a unique ID would be fantastic
Jan 03 05:39:06 <zgold> jasta: interested in viewing the results? :)
Jan 03 05:40:07 <jasta> yes but not atm.
Jan 03 05:41:04 <zgold> s'all good
Jan 03 16:12:01 <jasta> whoa, they still haven't posted the application yet?
Jan 03 16:24:37 <Zer0Her0> :(
Jan 03 16:25:11 * benley frowns
Jan 03 16:25:16 <Zer0Her0> hehe
Jan 03 17:17:54 <Lede> hey morrildl, how is the submission for coming allong?
Jan 03 17:18:01 <Lede> s/for/form
Jan 03 17:18:25 <Lede> not that im ready to submit anything :)
Jan 03 17:23:47 <jasta> hehe
Jan 03 17:35:08 <Lede> jasta: http://groups.google.com/group/android-challenge/browse_thread/thread/5fbad987d2b67145
Jan 03 17:35:32 <Lede> morrildl explained the problems there
Jan 03 17:42:08 <morrildl> We love all browsers like our children.
Jan 03 17:42:14 <morrildl> But sometimes children misbehave.
Jan 03 17:44:55 <jasta> how complicated is this stupid form that you are struggling with that?
Jan 03 17:48:12 <Stephmw> ajaxy?
Jan 03 17:51:14 <zgold> g'day
Jan 03 17:52:29 <jasta> so, i have a question.
Jan 03 17:52:39 <zgold> Go for it
Jan 03 17:52:45 <jasta> it's not about android :)
Jan 03 17:53:20 <zgold> Is it directed at somebody in particular or your just venting about why the sky is blue in #android? :)
Jan 03 17:53:26 <jasta> i am supposed to snail mail this check to BC, and they are asking for $79CAD.  my bank, and myself of course are located in the US, so normally it is implied that all my checks are in USD.
Jan 03 17:53:44 <jasta> can i actually just write in 79.00CAD on the check and let our banks figure it out?
Jan 03 17:53:55 <jasta> or should i perform conversion myself and specifically indicate USD?
Jan 03 17:54:05 <zgold> I personally would do the latter
Jan 03 17:54:09 <romainguy__> jasta: checks usually show the currency
Jan 03 17:54:18 <romainguy__> so you'd have to do the conversion
Jan 03 17:54:35 <jasta> well, they say "dollars", not CAD or USD.
Jan 03 17:54:54 <zgold> Given that CAD > USA now a days, you might be better off just leaving it as ud =P
Jan 03 17:56:51 <jasta> i will ask the person what htey would prefer i suppose.
Jan 03 17:57:05 <jasta> perhaps they know the rules better tahn i
Jan 03 19:28:53 <derka> hello guys
Jan 03 19:28:59 <derka> i've got a dumb question
Jan 03 19:29:18 <derka> android uses its own VM, Dalvec
Jan 03 19:29:26 <derka> so its own bycode compiler
Jan 03 19:29:42 <derka> what is the java version used then ?
Jan 03 19:29:45 <derka> 1.5 ?1.6 ?
Jan 03 19:29:54 <derka> the one of the JAva JDK installed on the PC?
Jan 03 19:30:10 <morrildl> derka: the Java version is less relevant than the bytecode version
Jan 03 19:30:26 <morrildl> not much changed between 1.4 and 1.5 except I believe for annotations
Jan 03 19:30:30 <derka> ok
Jan 03 19:30:35 <morrildl> IIRC even less changed between 1.5 and 1.6
Jan 03 19:31:06 <rzr> hi
Jan 03 19:31:08 <derka> so how is the bytecode versino relevant if it is a specific one, the dalvec
Jan 03 19:31:08 <morrildl> The dx tool (which does the translation from Java bytecode to Dalvic bytecode) supports at least 1.5 and I believe 1.6
Jan 03 19:31:20 <rzr> any works regarding debian integration of SDK ?
Jan 03 19:32:12 <derka> ok
Jan 03 19:32:23 <derka> thx morrildl
Jan 03 19:32:32 <morrildl> derka: np
Jan 03 19:32:35 <derka> ;)
Jan 03 19:38:33 <jasta> rzr: none that i know of, but i'm certain ubuntu and debian will pick it up soon.
Jan 03 19:39:04 <jasta> the SDK is packaged in such a way that would make it very easy to redistribute.
Jan 03 19:39:20 <jasta> no goofy installers or anything
Jan 03 19:40:14 <jasonlee> i wonder how the netbeans plugin is coming along
Jan 03 19:40:52 <jasta> ive never even used netbeans.
Jan 03 19:41:04 <rzr> jasta: i can help to do a such thing
Jan 03 19:41:09 <jasta> well, i've barely used eclipse too.  i'm kind of a minimalist.
Jan 03 19:41:19 <rzr> since I am about to start a project on Android..
Jan 03 19:41:27 <jasta> rzr: are you a debian upstream maintainer?
Jan 03 19:41:35 <rzr> yea
Jan 03 19:41:41 * jasta raises an eyebrow
Jan 03 19:41:47 <jasta> i would support such a project.
Jan 03 19:42:14 <jasta> of course, you should know that the SDK will probably be updated many more times in the next year, and the debian packages should not fall far behind.
Jan 03 19:42:51 <rzr> 1st I must grab the sources tarball :)
Jan 03 19:43:09 <jasta> there is no source.
Jan 03 19:43:21 <jasta> i mean, there is some, but not much.
Jan 03 19:43:25 <rzr> I feared that :)
Jan 03 19:43:35 <rzr> the SDK can not be recompiled ?
Jan 03 19:43:43 <jasta> Google has mysteriously released an open source platform without any of the accompanying source code.
Jan 03 19:43:45 <rzr> s/SDK/emulator ?
Jan 03 19:43:54 <jasta> So, currently, Google has a closed source platform.
Jan 03 19:43:57 <rzr> weird :)
Jan 03 19:44:05 <rzr> ok then I'll put this on hold
Jan 03 19:44:20 <jasta> Well, all the pieces based off GPL'd work have appeared to comply and released source.  For that, the emulator itself, the Linux kernel used, etc are open sourced.
Jan 03 19:44:20 <rzr> I must open a thread on the group
Jan 03 19:44:31 <jasta> But the specific Android platform stack is closed source.
Jan 03 19:44:38 <benley> for now
Jan 03 19:44:43 <rzr> :)
Jan 03 19:44:47 <jasta> For now, and from what I hear, for quite a long time.
Jan 03 19:45:00 <rzr> do you have some revelent url talking about that ?
Jan 03 19:45:01 <benley> how long is a long time?
Jan 03 19:45:07 <rzr> just long :)
Jan 03 19:45:20 <jasta> rzr: It is well known, but there is no official justification given.
Jan 03 19:45:44 <jasta> benley: I believe that Google's strategy is to release source code accompanying the first commercially available devices.
Jan 03 19:46:08 <rzr> then, I'll ask about this
Jan 03 19:46:10 <jasta> ADC I is certain to be over before the source is made available.
Jan 03 19:46:17 <benley> ah
Jan 03 19:46:47 <jasta> Google has actually remained awkwardly silent about the source code, which I think is a real slap in the face.
Jan 03 19:47:18 <benley> I suppose I should also remain awkwardly silent then
Jan 03 19:47:24 <jasta> The engineers here in #android have thrown us a bone here and there, but Google has not officially said a word.
Jan 03 19:48:22 <rzr> but anyone asked ?
Jan 03 19:48:34 <jasta> Yes, many folks have asked.
Jan 03 19:48:38 <rzr> online ?
Jan 03 19:48:41 <jasta> Yes.
Jan 03 19:49:57 <rzr> like this  http://code.google.com/android/kb/licensingandoss.html
Jan 03 19:50:30 <rzr> well I can start with the emulator then :)
Jan 03 19:51:21 <jasta> Right, like I said, the source is available for parts of it.
Jan 03 19:51:35 <jasta> all the parts based on existing GPL'd works, basically.
Jan 03 19:51:42 <jasta> that they are not legally permitted to release without the source
Jan 03 19:52:13 <rzr> and  nothing about apache licenced componants ..;
Jan 03 19:52:29 <jasta> well, apache licensed components do not require disclosure of source code.
Jan 03 19:53:55 <rzr> true
Jan 03 19:55:30 <jasta> it's frankly really frustrating, and i think they are making a mistake here.
Jan 03 19:56:04 <benley> I'm pretty sure they'd release the source sooner if they could
Jan 03 19:56:17 <rzr> or would ?
Jan 03 19:56:28 <jasta> i'm not sure.  i don't think google's hand is being forced.
Jan 03 19:56:33 <benley> consider the ridiculous number of companies involved in openhandsetalliance
Jan 03 19:56:46 <jasta> i think google is operating strategically here.  it's just that i disagree with their strategy.
Jan 03 19:57:16 <jasta> benley: yes, and each of those companies has agreed to disclose the software in full.  it's not like they are still trying to decide whether they will release it or not.
Jan 03 20:00:40 <jasta> but i digress, everything will be made right eventually.
Jan 03 20:00:57 <jasta> i'm anxious to get started on my ADC project now.  i just wish we had those terms and conditions posted :P
Jan 03 20:01:32 <rzr> btw my company  is about to take an internship to work on Android (in Rennes, France) , interessed contact me
Jan 03 20:01:37 <jasta> oh, and i still want to finish my silly little solitaire engine.
Jan 03 20:11:32 <romainguy__> rzr: Are you from France?
Jan 03 20:12:19 <derka> hello romain i am from france too
Jan 03 20:13:31 <rzr> romainguy: yes rennes
Jan 03 20:14:09 <romainguy__> rzr: I work on Android at Google and I just graduated from l'INSA de Lyon, if you're interested I could forward them your internship offer
Jan 03 20:14:27 <rzr> sure
Jan 03 20:14:49 <rzr> note my contact : http://rzr.online.fr/contact.htm
Jan 03 20:15:03 <rzr> i am about to leave my keyboard
Jan 03 20:15:06 <romainguy__> thanks
Jan 03 20:15:33 <derka> romain are you based in france
Jan 03 20:15:49 <romainguy__> I work in Mountain View, California
Jan 03 20:16:09 <rzr> as intership or real job ?
Jan 03 20:16:20 <romainguy__> Real job
Jan 03 20:16:24 <rzr> anyway it's Ze Big classe :)
Jan 03 20:16:30 <jasonlee> romainguy__: i just realized who you were, i hear them mention you on java posse all the time..haha
Jan 03 20:16:40 <romainguy__> ;-)
Jan 03 20:17:31 <derka> cool Romain ;-)
Jan 03 20:25:54 <derka> hello romain
Jan 03 20:25:58 <derka> i have sent you private message
Jan 03 20:26:02 <derka> i wonder if you have received it
Jan 03 20:26:07 <romainguy__> I did
Jan 03 20:26:09 <derka> ok
Jan 03 20:26:20 <romainguy__> might have problems though
Jan 03 20:26:22 <derka> i gues you speak french
Jan 03 20:26:28 <romainguy__> give me your email address in pv
Jan 03 20:26:31 <derka> ok
Jan 03 20:27:05 <romainguy__> I mailed you the log
Jan 03 20:27:10 <romainguy__> Apparently you don't get my replies
Jan 03 20:27:31 <derka> great thx a lot
Jan 03 20:27:57 <derka> I havent received your email yet :-)
Jan 03 20:28:11 <derka> you can add my gmail address to your google talk if you want
Jan 03 20:28:53 <derka> c bon j'ai recu
Jan 03 20:31:49 <jerkface03> developer challenge submission info up yet?
Jan 03 20:32:06 <jerkface03> doesn't look like it
Jan 03 20:39:22 <jasta> yeah, i'm blown away that they still don't have that up yet.
Jan 03 20:42:44 <jasta> at least they could publish the terms and conditions, assuming they even have that worked out yet
Jan 03 21:43:51 <jasta> teehee, my vnc server is fun to play with
Jan 03 21:44:35 <jerkface03> screenshot links
Jan 03 22:00:46 <jasta> devtcg.org
Jan 03 22:02:16 <cybereagle> ohh beautiful!
Jan 03 22:02:28 <jasta> yeah, it looks great
Jan 03 22:02:40 <cybereagle> ahh the confused newbies this image will produce hehehe
Jan 03 22:03:04 <jasta> yeah, there's actually a vnc server in android natively as well, in libsurfaceflinger.so (see the very next post)
Jan 03 22:03:07 <jasta> but it totally sucks
Jan 03 22:03:22 <jasta> i wrote my own, which sucks a lot less and actually works well enough to connect from a real smartphone
Jan 03 22:03:25 <cybereagle> yeah you were saying in here before
Jan 03 22:03:28 <absentia> helloandroid.com (.org?) has a link aboutit
Jan 03 22:03:33 <jasta> i even use the smartphone data connection (no wifi or anything) and it still "works"
Jan 03 22:03:36 <jasta> it's super slow, though :)
Jan 03 22:03:57 <jasta> tethering the smartphone via USB makes it much better :)
Jan 03 22:04:36 <absentia> isn't that called.... skype?
Jan 03 22:04:45 <jasta> hmm?
Jan 03 22:05:53 <jasta> i mean, windows mobile phones can use a computer's network connection by plugging them in with a USB sync cable.
Jan 03 22:06:14 <zgold> jasta: if you get a chance, head to bluesata.com really fast (my blog).  Got screenshots of the android project i've been working on
Jan 03 22:06:19 <jasta> then, you can connect to the android vnc server over the local network.
Jan 03 22:06:58 <jasta> you should really take screenshots with -skin hvga-p
Jan 03 22:07:14 <jasta> if you spell out the skin name in lowercase with -skin, it doesn't draw the stupid graphics surrounding the screen
Jan 03 22:07:50 <morrildl> If you take screenshots with DDMS, it captures only the framebuffer and doesn't include the skin, either
Jan 03 22:08:20 <Lede> zgold: nice :)
Jan 03 22:08:32 <jasta> zgold: is the source hosted somewhere?
Jan 03 22:08:57 <Lede> morrildl: by the way, will google supply a set of standard icon/graphics developers can use?
Jan 03 22:09:07 <morrildl> Lede: good question
Jan 03 22:09:14 <morrildl> Lede: icons for what?
Jan 03 22:09:35 <jasta> stock icons, like people, people with plus icons, trash cans, you know stupid shit like that.
Jan 03 22:09:38 <morrildl> (meaning -- what would you LIKE to have icons for)
Jan 03 22:09:39 <jasta> to put next to list entries and things.
Jan 03 22:09:47 <morrildl> hmm
Jan 03 22:09:47 <Lede> morrildl: for general stuff, like a alert sign or information icon
Jan 03 22:09:51 <jasta> i thought about that as well.
Jan 03 22:09:55 <morrildl> okay
Jan 03 22:10:10 <morrildl> I'll just enter that as a feature request
Jan 03 22:10:12 <jasta> GNOME, for example, provides a large library of stock icons that developers can incorporate into their menu items, place next to buttons, etc.
Jan 03 22:10:24 <jasta> btw, will you guys be opening your bug tracking database at some point?
Jan 03 22:10:25 <Lede> jasta: exactly
Jan 03 22:10:47 <morrildl> jasta: we intend to, as soon as we can make it work
Jan 03 22:10:59 <jasta> you custom engineered a bug tracker?
Jan 03 22:11:15 <morrildl> nah, I mean process more than tools
Jan 03 22:11:27 <jasta> oh
Jan 03 22:11:32 <morrildl> We have quite a few issues related to partners and security stuff that we can't make public
Jan 03 22:11:40 <cybereagle> talking to you on irc has worked quite well so far ;)
Jan 03 22:11:49 <morrildl> So there's a process problem of having our engineers work against two separate issue trackers
Jan 03 22:11:56 <jasta> business-to-business relationships are like stepping through tar man.
Jan 03 22:12:09 * morrildl does not disagree with jasta :)
Jan 03 22:12:27 <morrildl> Anyway we'll be working on it ASAP
Jan 03 22:12:38 <morrildl> probably as soon as the Challenge app is squared away
Jan 03 22:12:58 <jasta> i'm blown away that you guys don't have that out yet :)
Jan 03 22:13:08 <morrildl> So am I
Jan 03 22:13:20 <morrildl> The very annoying and boring reason is simply the holidays
Jan 03 22:13:21 <jasta> now i'm expecting it to be really flash and have all kinds of animations and stupid web tricks on it.
Jan 03 22:13:30 <jasta> flashy*
Jan 03 22:13:56 <Lede> you are distracting morrildl!
Jan 03 22:14:02 <jasta> like if i type too many words in the summary a group of ninjas will jump out and run amok on the page
Jan 03 22:14:21 <morrildl> hmm
Jan 03 22:14:28 * absentia likes that town in cali that has the annual ninja parade
Jan 03 22:14:36 <absentia> where the entire town comes out -- and all the ninjas are invisible.
Jan 03 22:14:38 <morrildl> that might be a cool feature for v2.0
Jan 03 22:15:09 <jasta> absentia: i feel like you're describing one of those flash banner ad "games".
Jan 03 22:17:51 <jasta> ok, i have to go do some work for the rest of the day.
Jan 03 22:18:02 <zgold> Source is in a blog post a bit down
Jan 03 22:18:03 <zgold> SVN
Jan 03 22:46:48 <morrildl> The pros of Chatzilla are that I don't have to install an IRC app as long as I have Firefox
Jan 03 22:47:06 <morrildl> The cons of Chatzilla are that whenever firefox flakes out, so does IRC
Jan 03 22:48:16 <romainguy__> The beauty of the web browser as a platform :)
Jan 03 22:48:37 * davidw is pretty happy with xchat, on linux
Jan 03 22:49:42 <cybereagle> xchat on linux, mirc on windows
Jan 03 22:50:54 <cybereagle> not too fussed byt chatzilla seems a bit too unstable, i like a dedicated irc app
Jan 03 23:24:50 <jasta> oh you guys :)
Jan 03 23:24:58 <jasta> who forgot about irssi and screen? :)
Jan 03 23:25:16 <romainguy__> not enough UI :)
Jan 03 23:25:25 <billmeltsner> bah, who needs a UI
Jan 03 23:25:25 <jasta> you need a lot of UI for text-based communication? :)
Jan 03 23:25:42 <romainguy__> I just like my apps to look nice :)
Jan 03 23:26:00 <jasta> mine too, that's why i don't use XChat or ChatZilla :)
Jan 03 23:26:02 <benley> I like my apps to work well
Jan 03 23:26:32 <jasta> btw, i love the android bootloader splash :)
Jan 03 23:26:42 <romainguy__> the cylon?
Jan 03 23:26:50 <jasta> no, the bootloader.
Jan 03 23:27:02 <romainguy__> hmm
Jan 03 23:27:03 <jasta> the cylon is the Linux framebuffer boot splash
Jan 03 23:27:12 <jasta> ...isn't it? ;)
Jan 03 23:27:15 <romainguy__> ah yes ok
Jan 03 23:27:32 <romainguy__> I guess I see it too often to even remember it :p
Jan 03 23:27:48 <benley> main screen turn on
Jan 03 23:28:05 <jasta> "Android_" :)
Jan 03 23:28:15 <jasta> in the DroidMono font
Jan 03 23:31:46 <jasta> i'm sure it's gonna change, but that's a shame :)
Jan 03 23:33:33 <billmeltsner> I like the cylon too
Jan 03 23:33:50 <billmeltsner> but yeah, the A N D R O I D_ is nicely done
Jan 03 23:38:48 <Yeggstry> does anyone know how to remove packages from the emulator?
Jan 04 00:05:30 <jasta> Yeggstry: i think you can just rm -f them
Jan 04 00:05:39 <Yeggstry> yeah I did that :)
Jan 04 00:05:50 <Yeggstry> I did the stupid thing of renaming my project
Jan 04 00:06:27 <jasta> morrildl: so, honestly...is the adc app coming even soon or are you guys way too far behind?
Jan 04 00:21:58 <morrildl> jasta: Yes.
Jan 04 00:25:29 <jasta> yes, it is coming soon?
Jan 04 00:28:43 <morrildl> Yes to your question
Jan 04 00:28:46 <morrildl> ;)
Jan 04 00:29:30 <cybereagle> do you have a lowyer sitting behind you, cos that was way to clever an answer :P
Jan 04 00:29:34 <cybereagle> *lawyer
Jan 04 00:32:57 * jasta throws up his arms and goes home
Jan 04 00:45:49 <morrildl> jasta: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/01/rising-to-challenge.html
Jan 04 00:45:53 <morrildl> phew
Jan 04 00:46:26 <romainguy__> morrildl: good job :)
Jan 04 00:47:41 <morrildl> romainguy__: thanks :)
Jan 04 00:54:19 <zgold> Anybody from google who knows anything about spinners here?
Jan 04 00:54:49 <zgold> The actual view which is inside the dropdown of a spinner appears to be private and we can't use it.  Am I correct?
Jan 04 00:57:33 * morrildl looks at romainguy__
Jan 04 00:57:43 <zgold> :)
Jan 04 00:57:58 <zgold> Its causing some minor issues heh.  I'm gunna post on AndroidDev's
Jan 04 01:00:38 <zgold> http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/b613c8746c53e046#cb6c19b9415de245 if anybody gets a chance
Jan 04 02:36:40 <jasta> yay, finally released it
Jan 04 02:37:58 <jasta> except that the terms and conditions totally suck.
Jan 04 02:38:16 <jasta> this does kind of bar an open source project.  you can't organically grow the size of your team.
Jan 04 02:38:28 <jasta> or accept lesser contributions from team members
Jan 04 02:38:35 <jasta> and still have a structure to pay them
Jan 04 02:42:36 <jasta> also, from now until march, it sort of sounds like a bad idea to make a public repository for my code.
Jan 04 02:43:03 <jasta> since there would be no way to show that you wrote the code.
Jan 04 02:49:02 <romainguy_> zgold: I don't clearly understand your issue with Spinner
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jan 04 02:59:56 2008