**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 25 02:59:57 2008 Jan 25 05:07:25 hey Jan 25 05:07:43 does anyone know how to save image from android to the sqlite database? Jan 25 05:11:50 SR71-Blackbird: Yes, you don't. Jan 25 05:12:44 You save it to the filesystem, and if you want to use a ContentProvider to expose it you must use a special convention which points a _data field to the path on disk. Jan 25 05:13:09 This is used, for example, by ImageView#setImageURI to lookup the _data field of the supplied URI, open the file, decode it, and then display it. Jan 25 05:13:36 See #5 here for more information: file:///usr/local/lib/android/docs/devel/data/contentproviders.html#creatingacontentprovider Jan 25 05:14:11 In the database, it is appropriate then to store the path to the file as well. Or, use some heuristic to determine what it would be based on the database fields. Jan 25 05:14:31 My application (http://android-rss.googlecode.com) does this. Jan 25 05:15:35 jasta, thanks a lot Jan 25 05:15:53 jasta, i'm just wondering why blob wasn't enabled.. Jan 25 05:16:43 I wondered the same thing, but it definitely is not ;) Jan 25 05:17:28 Hello all. I'm new to Android and am wondering if there are any current, serious efforts to write a full featured email client? Jan 25 05:17:52 jasta, i should believe that now... after a day of fruitless trials.. i was trying to do sth similar the first time around.. which worked.. going back to it.. Jan 25 05:18:17 ageless, not much that I know of! Jan 25 05:18:39 SR71-Blackbird: Thanks! :) Jan 25 05:18:40 Hmm? Jan 25 05:19:03 SR71-Blackbird: I'm considering writing one, but I don't want to waste my time if someone is already well into their own project. Jan 25 05:19:30 ageless: Well, it would not be far fetched to assume Google is going to develop an application or interface to at least every major Internet service they offer. Jan 25 05:19:33 ageless, if it's good enough, I don't think you need to doubt.. if it has some good idea.. i think so.. Jan 25 05:19:34 This would include Gmail, of course. Jan 25 05:19:51 jasta: Probably true, but if they haven't started yet perhaps they would like to consider mine :) Jan 25 05:20:11 I have some experience with mobile email applications so I think I could probably put something together quickly. Jan 25 05:20:15 ageless, heh.. if you make it good enough, maybe you might get a job at google Jan 25 05:20:16 That said, and as powerful and progressive as Android is, I believe Google will fail in that area. Jan 25 05:20:34 jasta: Interesting, how come? Jan 25 05:20:41 SR71-Blackbird: One can always dream :) Jan 25 05:21:04 jasta, I am just glad they brought the OS out... at least it's out in the open for development.. Jan 25 05:21:21 ageless: Because I believe they will simply translate their online services to mobile devices. This will work well for some users and some applications, but is insufficiently general to not be beaten out by an alternative. Jan 25 05:22:01 The e-mail application on a mobile device needs to support extensive integration with other services, protocols, etc. Google will ignore that reality. Jan 25 05:22:11 The community, however, will not. Jan 25 05:22:24 jasta, thing is because it has the backing of so many corporations and geeks alike(at least atm) there will be lots of apps in the air.. and services.. Jan 25 05:22:45 jasta, it won't be totally on google's control over all the feature imo Jan 25 05:22:59 SR71-Blackbird: Precisely, and I believe Google is counting on being beaten in some areas. Jan 25 05:23:23 jasta, I think they're content in changing the world in some field.. Jan 25 05:23:25 E-mail might not be one of them, but if Android is to succeed, there needs to be more than a simple translation of Gmail to a handset. Jan 25 05:23:59 jasta, they do have Microsoft's solution to follow anyways.. Jan 25 05:24:07 Google is unlikely to agree. Fortunately, as we near a release, what Google wants is of decreasing importance to anyone. Jan 25 05:24:10 I'd expect that if they intend to compete with current smart phones they recognize that they will need to provide tools that work across the board, and not just with their own services. Jan 25 05:25:09 jasta, keeping the development open has saved them a lot of development and training money.. and even advertisement to some extent.. Jan 25 05:25:16 Anyway, thanks for the information. Guess it's time to start learning the SDK :) Jan 25 05:25:30 SR71-Blackbird: Well, Google's advertising budget is pretty small. They are, afterall, an advertising company :) Jan 25 05:25:54 jasta, heh.. yeah.... and they're the media darling now anyways.. Jan 25 05:26:23 If they sneeze, it's news. :) Jan 25 05:27:15 jasta, which IDE are you using? Jan 25 05:27:21 ls Jan 25 05:27:23 oops ;) Jan 25 05:27:43 SR71-Blackbird: I primarily use Vim. Lately, I've wanted to get Eclim to work to try it out, but I haven't gotten around to it. Jan 25 05:27:54 jasta, Eclim? Jan 25 05:28:06 I am familiar with Eclipse, and it is a capable environment, but it is not my preference. Jan 25 05:28:42 jasta, heh.. eclipse is pretty good.. only thing is .. i started using emacs shortcuts on it.. planning to port my work to emacs.. confusing the hell out of me.. Jan 25 05:28:52 SR71-Blackbird: It's a plugin for both Vim and Eclipse that bridges the two. It exposes Vim script commands that utilize the Eclipse engine to perform all the usual features. Jan 25 05:29:13 jasta, vim is pretty good for most of the stuff.. Jan 25 05:55:47 ls Jan 25 05:55:50 Damnit! :) Jan 25 05:55:52 s Jan 25 05:55:56 Oh for crying out loud. Jan 25 07:51:47 can I pass a parameter to an xml layout? Jan 25 15:24:18 hello everyone Jan 25 15:24:47 anyone up? Jan 25 15:26:13 just wanted to make sure anyone is up because I have some Android problems with services communication Jan 25 15:28:22 * Melte2 looks around Jan 25 15:30:38 * Melte2 takes a sit Jan 25 15:36:55 well this Android channel certainly does seem to be dead =/ Jan 25 15:37:20 Melte2, the most people are in the us Jan 25 15:37:30 so perhaps they are sleepng :) Jan 25 15:37:57 eww Jan 25 15:38:52 Eurasia < US Jan 25 15:40:25 * Melte2 wakes everyone up Jan 25 15:41:04 it'll probably be another hour or so Jan 25 15:41:14 meh Jan 25 15:41:17 Melte2: there's a bugtracker btw Jan 25 15:41:22 7:40 on this front Jan 25 15:41:34 *19:40 that is Jan 25 15:41:59 no no it has nothing to do with bugs. Jan 25 15:42:21 I'm just having a problem understanding communication with a startService()ed service Jan 25 15:42:50 ah Jan 25 15:43:00 because after digging the whole web / usenet it turns out that most of the people use bindService() which is not acceptable in my situation Jan 25 15:43:06 you can have bugs against documentation too :) Jan 25 15:43:18 and I've been stuck on this for 2 days and finally I have decided to try the IRC Jan 25 15:43:33 heh Jan 25 15:43:45 the documentation is, well, sparse Jan 25 15:43:56 (I'm not a native english speaker, so I may have used the wrong word, meh) Jan 25 15:44:40 your meaning is coming across fine ;) Jan 25 15:45:18 :) Jan 25 15:45:31 so any of you guys used startService() and then communicated with the service you started? Jan 25 15:46:07 (of course no, the 'realtime irc help' concept is too good to be true) Jan 25 15:48:38 * Melte2 thought so Jan 25 15:49:23 it is helpful when you are here during normal hours in the US Jan 25 15:50:45 Melte2: yeah, sorry, no idea - and I was having a break ;) Jan 25 15:58:04 the normal hours I guess will start within an hour or two? Jan 25 15:58:25 give or take Jan 25 15:59:02 meaning? Jan 25 15:59:50 usually within an hour or two people are here Jan 25 16:00:01 its only 8am on the west coast Jan 25 16:02:08 I see Jan 25 16:02:18 thanks for assistance Jan 25 16:02:21 I'll stay on Jan 25 16:24:56 yawn Jan 25 16:54:11 hey all Jan 25 16:58:11 hello davidw and davidw_ Jan 25 16:58:18 >:3 Jan 25 16:58:27 hi Jan 25 16:58:51 better Jan 25 17:09:38 yawn again Jan 25 17:11:29 * Lede yawns back at jasta Jan 25 21:30:40 fuck google's worthless horrible documentation Jan 25 21:30:44 and hello all Jan 25 21:31:04 sounds like you are having fun Jan 25 21:31:06 it's not bad documentation, IMO, for a betaish product Jan 25 21:31:16 its also Java Doc Jan 25 21:31:19 but then again, I'm an open source dude where docs are often significantly worse.... Jan 25 21:31:37 indeed and amen to that davidw Jan 25 21:31:37 the JavaDoc form drives me nuts Jan 25 21:32:07 i'd rather see examples and be left guessing what parameters mean than to have no useful information on how to use and be given info on what all the parameters do Jan 25 21:32:22 aka java doc is a curse Jan 25 21:32:33 its the worst thing about java. :( Jan 25 21:32:51 i could think of a few worse things ;) Jan 25 21:32:55 sup myren_ :P Jan 25 21:33:16 they aren't javadocs though Jan 25 21:33:23 they're some google format Jan 25 21:33:27 thanks for teh channel reference my dark side friend Jan 25 21:33:29 davidw: it is javadocs Jan 25 21:33:42 oh...really? Jan 25 21:33:42 its just a "skin" on top of javadocs Jan 25 21:33:46 davidw, he would know ;) Jan 25 21:33:50 the javadoc tool lets you change how the result is produced Jan 25 21:33:58 michaelnovakjr, yeah, if he says so, I'm not going to argue:-) Jan 25 21:33:59 even if not actually, they're being used like javadocs Jan 25 21:34:03 haha Jan 25 21:34:38 its a nice quick way to see what a method/class/interface/etc is doing without too much work behind it Jan 25 21:34:40 can you guys think, offhand, of a standard java class that has a field that's not a constant? preferably something simple like an int or a string? Jan 25 21:35:01 java.awt.Rectangle? Jan 25 21:35:59 mmmm like...not a GUI thing? something really basic/simple? Jan 25 21:36:09 Rectangle is as basic as it gets :) Jan 25 21:36:19 hrm... yeah I guess it would actually work, I suppose Jan 25 21:36:22 see, my qualm is that javadocs dont show you at all what things are doing. they just provide some sentance about each individual function, without any context on the greater whole & interaction Jan 25 21:36:22 I offered this one because it has public fields Jan 25 21:36:40 myren_: which is the purpose of other kinds of documentation Jan 25 21:36:53 javadocs, being generated from the code, can not do much more than that Jan 25 21:36:59 exactly Jan 25 21:37:01 I always found it was a very valuable tool Jan 25 21:37:14 and I always found it a lot better than most other documentations out there Jan 25 21:37:18 they are very valuable, it makes some form of documentation relatively painless Jan 25 21:37:19 a good point, but it tends to cause those other things to not get written Jan 25 21:37:22 romainguy, actually it works just fine, thanks! Jan 25 21:37:23 but yeah, it does not teach you an API Jan 25 21:37:49 true, but its very helpful Jan 25 21:38:06 myren_: Google has provided quite a bit of documentation that is not in their javadoc form, actually. Jan 25 21:38:16 myren_: well that's why we provided a bunch of other documentations Jan 25 21:38:19 mostly in the form of the examples, from what i've seen Jan 25 21:38:19 Also, there are numerous source code samples to stare at. Jan 25 21:38:21 that present the system on a higher level Jan 25 21:38:32 unless i'm missing something its mostly examples, which cover the basic use cases. Jan 25 21:38:33 (not that it's perfect :) Jan 25 21:38:35 myren_: Then you haven't been looking very hard. Jan 25 21:38:48 or i've been staring hard at the wrong things Jan 25 21:39:00 from my point of view, if you're complaining about the android docs, you're spoiled/not usually an early adopter:-) Jan 25 21:39:05 perhaps. why don't you try looking at the left hand side. Jan 25 21:39:08 and following those links. Jan 25 21:39:51 * Lede complains about lack of bugfixex/updates/features Jan 25 21:40:39 with all the complaining you folks do, i wonder how you ever have time to write any code. Jan 25 21:40:51 HAHAHA Jan 25 21:41:00 jasta, maybe they work for nokia or something Jan 25 21:41:14 maybe. Jan 25 21:41:30 i don't work, i only do an internship without getting payed Jan 25 21:41:48 I've been programming C++ all day. Jan 25 21:41:54 this country invented free labor in the form of internships Jan 25 21:41:59 absentia, i am sorry Jan 25 21:42:00 absentia, time to go drinking then, I guess Jan 25 21:42:12 Lede, it's pretty common in europe, afaict Jan 25 21:42:15 thinkin'bout headin' to the apple store tonight. Jan 25 21:42:30 davidw: it's horrible Jan 25 21:42:33 which country? Jan 25 21:42:37 netherlands Jan 25 21:42:43 Italy's the same way Jan 25 21:42:49 Lede: France's the same Jan 25 21:42:54 show me where the docs are for implementing Cursors Jan 25 21:42:59 i've clicked everything "on the left side" Jan 25 21:43:00 lots of unpaid internship or with very low pay Jan 25 21:43:03 stupid guy I worked for didn't even buy our intern lunch on his last day (so I did) Jan 25 21:43:18 romainguy: i know, in france there are offices filled with interns running the company without pay .. Jan 25 21:43:20 there's 7 known subclasses to try and help me implement Cursors Jan 25 21:43:30 that is nuts Jan 25 21:43:38 but i'd be happy for a base case Jan 25 21:43:39 that can't be good for the product Jan 25 21:43:55 oh...that DB stuff? I didn't like it much either... it's like just let me at the SQL and get out of the way Jan 25 21:44:07 last time I worked in netherlands.. .I don't know how much I made... I think the conversion rate was 3gilders(sp?) to 1? so I think it was like 3900 a day or something. Jan 25 21:44:12 sql and urls and providers, oh my! Jan 25 21:44:53 davidw: yes but you need to go through ContentProvider to do inter-app work Jan 25 21:45:00 aka to do anything at all remotely in the least sense interesting Jan 25 21:45:05 myren_, yeah Jan 25 21:45:13 and its the least documented part of the api. :( Jan 25 21:45:24 accessing content providers good, building them bad. Jan 25 21:45:33 myren_, well, the example code is under a free license, so you can have at it Jan 25 21:45:52 the notepad app is a pretty good baseline SQL Jan 25 21:45:57 ::cheers to open source:: Jan 25 21:46:10 but it doesnt do any update notifications afaik Jan 25 21:46:21 its basically the spartan heres the base case Jan 25 21:46:55 i feel so taunted by there being 7 cursor subclasses and having no idea what i need to implement for them Jan 25 21:47:13 myren_: Remember that we are still busy writing the APIs and implementations Jan 25 21:47:54 (And we would love to get better docs and examples out there :) Jan 25 21:47:56 sorry i realize i'm not winning any sympathy by griping, i wish i could be more positive than just muck-raking. Jan 25 21:48:13 No worry :) Jan 25 21:48:23 * TimRiker pokes for the msging applet... Jan 25 21:48:26 I understand your reaction Jan 25 21:48:44 google has done a great job so far@ Jan 25 21:48:45 ! Jan 25 21:48:45 michaelnovakjr, yeah... I do have to admit that I'm more willing to accept less polished stuff if I can actually dive into the sources Jan 25 21:48:54 totally Jan 25 21:49:04 sources? we have those? Jan 25 21:49:11 TimRiker, no:-( Jan 25 21:49:11 * TimRiker ducks Jan 25 21:49:35 TimRiker, do you know what hardware I can buy to run Android on?;-) Jan 25 21:49:46 sharp zaurus models. Jan 25 21:49:53 but they are not phones. Jan 25 21:51:22 will the Xmpp client/service ever become a real Xmpp client or will it remain locked to @gmail.com ? Jan 25 21:52:57 or is there some AUTH scheme i'm missing and it should work now? Jan 25 22:05:21 evenin' Jan 25 22:05:44 TimRiker: yeah, although it's still a bit convoluted for Zaurus Jan 25 22:05:46 woo, morrildl responded to my "Issue" :) Jan 25 22:05:53 TimRiker: can't wait for a simple flashable image Jan 25 22:06:45 Stephmw: nod. not a ton of motivation for that though as the Zs are dead, so there will never be a phone version. Jan 25 22:07:09 gotten some interest in the maemo/nokia groups, but none of those are phones either. Jan 25 22:07:31 still no armv4 binaries, else openmoko/neo would be a choice. Jan 25 22:07:47 aye Jan 25 22:08:03 i believe the GP2X has an ARM5 Jan 25 22:08:08 thing is, even if the Zs aren't contenders for telephony, for games dev it'd be fine Jan 25 22:08:08 also useful for running L4 Jan 25 22:08:49 romainguy, you know offhand how ingrained the coupling of a class name to a unique application is? Jan 25 22:09:04 who is romainguy? Jan 25 22:10:10 davidw: are you entering hecl into the challenge? Jan 25 22:10:28 jasonlee, yes Jan 25 22:10:39 why? Jan 25 22:10:39 cool Jan 25 22:11:15 your putting so much work into it, i think it would do well in the competition.. Jan 25 22:11:25 ah... well I hope so Jan 25 22:11:37 it's way more sophisticated than what i'm doing =) Jan 25 22:12:21 I would actually find it cool if people utilized Hecl in their own entries in the competition Jan 25 22:12:23 do you have a hecl for android page? Jan 25 22:12:48 not really. I don't have quite the same resources that google does for documenting what I'm up to:-) Jan 25 22:12:49 i hadnt heard of it, but i'd consider. tell me more. :) Jan 25 22:12:52 there's an example script Jan 25 22:13:00 there's a helpful guy on irc Jan 25 22:13:13 and unlike google, I do provide the source code;-P Jan 25 22:14:46 basically if you're interested, get the sources from subversion, try it out, play with the example script, and ask me questions here or on the mailing list Jan 25 22:15:06 davidw: I have no idea :) Jan 25 22:15:08 * myren_ is a little boggled how much work going from J2ME to android is Jan 25 22:15:19 myren_, there totally unrelated Jan 25 22:15:23 they're Jan 25 22:15:33 is there a user interface side to HECL for android? Jan 25 22:15:57 myren_: Well, Android is a real platform, where J2ME is a sand box. I should hope that Android's scope is much, much larger. Jan 25 22:16:00 myren_, meaning...can you do guis with it? Jan 25 22:16:44 davidw: Can you access any Android API from HECL or do you have to add a layer for each of them?> Jan 25 22:16:50 you can do guis entirely in Hecl at this point, no need for XML Jan 25 22:17:17 romainguy, I added some reflection code, because I looked at the amount of APIs and decided I wasn't going to be able to craft a 'just right' interface for each one Jan 25 22:17:58 romainguy, so you can access anything at this point, and in some cases, I add Hecl script layers to make things 'nicer'. For instance: Jan 25 22:18:39 set lview [basiclist $context [list Apples Oranges Pears] -layoutparams $layoutparams] Jan 25 22:18:59 that language looks like puke :) Jan 25 22:19:11 the dash reminds of Tcl/Tk Jan 25 22:19:15 /o\ Jan 25 22:19:19 hides away all the array adapter stuff Jan 25 22:20:57 jasta, it takes some things from lisp, so no, it's not really your standard Algol syntax Jan 25 22:23:32 they covered it in some italian magazine recently: Jan 25 22:23:45 http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2008/01/24/hecl-in-italiano Jan 25 22:24:05 I didn't even have to write the article myself:-) Jan 25 22:26:20 Using Lisp would be better ;) Jan 25 22:27:48 I disagree. 50 years of not catching on has got to be indicative of something Jan 25 22:28:23 i think it indicates a rabbies epedemic in the ocmmunity personally Jan 25 22:28:48 i wish Rob Pike would've written a good rant on lisp Jan 25 22:30:38 I dunno, at first glance the language just looks like hell. Makes me questin the wisdom of some of the syntax. Jan 25 22:30:44 myren_, well, in that case, you have two options - you can obstinately continue to follow the one true way, and call everyone else morons, or you can figure out what's wrong and try and fix it Jan 25 22:31:00 hecl ? Jan 25 22:31:10 question* Jan 25 22:31:20 jasta, it's designed for maximum simplicity/flexibility Jan 25 22:31:52 I think it's bloated a bit, but it used to run ok in MIDP1.0 configurations, with a limit of 64K, plus the app/script itself Jan 25 22:32:38 since I wanted it to be interpreted, and not byte code compiled (which is a tradeoff), the parser and all that machinery has to be simple Jan 25 22:33:11 yay Jan 25 22:34:06 still though, since you have access to the stack, more or less, you can do some interesting things like write your own control structures Jan 25 22:35:38 davidw: you wanted it? did you design hecl? Jan 25 22:35:51 yes Jan 25 22:36:03 ahh, i didn't get that originally. Jan 25 22:36:22 well, of course I've borrowed from places... Jan 25 22:36:33 but I wrote the original code Jan 25 22:40:15 man, my ex colleague gave my wife a stack of 'desperate housewives' dvd's... I'm going to kick his ass the next time I see him:_( Jan 25 22:40:30 ching! camera works from hecl Jan 25 22:44:52 did you see any major success with this language anywhere with J2ME platforms? Jan 25 22:45:28 it's used here and there. not 'major' in the sense of millions of dollars, but I've gotten a few people who collaborate with me on it Jan 25 22:45:46 so far I'm happy Jan 25 22:45:52 nice Jan 25 22:45:58 I've been wanting to make my own language for quite some time now Jan 25 22:46:04 are there any examples of full featured applications or just these silly little do nothing scripts? Jan 25 22:46:06 it's fun:-) Jan 25 22:46:47 jasta, yeah, there's a j2me MS word editor Jan 25 22:47:04 ... what do you expect on j2me?! :-) besides pretty simple stuff Jan 25 22:48:29 absentia, it's entertaining enough that I was happy simply to have created something that works ok, let alone whether it's used by others or not... that's icing on the cake Jan 25 22:49:03 davidw: bingo! amen. Jan 25 22:49:04 ok, heading out. Jan 25 22:49:32 yeah, you can't really expect a lot from programming languages. It's not something you can sell for a lot of money;-) Jan 25 22:49:42 that's my plan Jan 25 22:54:20 davidw: you wrote an MS Word editor in HECL>? Jan 25 22:55:03 jasta, no, I'm pulling your leg... Jan 25 22:55:15 people have written real apps though Jan 25 22:55:19 such as? Jan 25 22:55:22 I haven't, as I spend more time on the language itself Jan 25 22:55:28 a stock market tracking system Jan 25 22:55:36 jasta: he controls a real MS editor via vnc and hecl over GPRS Jan 25 22:55:48 where is the source to that? Jan 25 22:56:04 the stock market thing? it's not public, it's sold for $$$ Jan 25 22:56:09 Stephmw: Well, not that an MS Word editor is that far-fetched for a mobile device. There are quite a few third party companies selling exactly that. Jan 25 22:56:38 morrildl: Nice that the issues are reviewed, but in case you didn't know one was missed, 49. Jan 25 22:56:55 yeah, three cheers for boring triage work:-) Jan 25 23:07:03 oops, I hope he didn't take that the wrong way Jan 25 23:07:16 I'm sincerely glad someone is doing that work Jan 25 23:17:16 * davidw -> sleep(now). Jan 26 01:51:48 teehee, i almost just typed my root password into irssi ;) Jan 26 02:23:52 smoke Jan 26 02:24:08 brb **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan 26 02:59:57 2008