**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 05 02:59:57 2008
Feb 05 08:23:45 <cutmasta> morning
Feb 05 11:43:05 <davidw> is it just me or does setEnabled false not really work for buttons?
Feb 05 12:12:08 <skicson> davidw:yeah it doesn't seem to work - i think i've seen it written up as a bug somewheres
Feb 05 14:18:14 <davidw> skicson, well bug romainguy when he comes on line
Feb 05 14:18:17 <davidw> we'll
Feb 05 15:49:31 <jasonlee> t
Feb 05 16:22:26 * davidw wonders what fires up the phone app
Feb 05 16:22:37 <davidw> even if you kill it, it comes back
Feb 05 16:47:32 <davidw> damn
Feb 05 16:49:39 <zhobbs> How can I "delete" parts of the canvas in a view's onDraw() function?
Feb 05 16:49:55 <zhobbs> I'm trying to do something like "canvas.drawColor(0, PorterDuff.Mode.CLEAR)", but that makes that part black
Feb 05 16:50:09 <zhobbs> I want to make it transparent
Feb 05 17:03:51 <zelip> i feel there should be 2 versions of android, touch screen and non-touch.  Is this like that?
Feb 05 17:04:35 <zelip> i have a non-touch screen phone, since i HATE how wm6 works..
Feb 05 17:05:17 <zelip> but with a nice interface it would be a my passion.  and with a not as ugly looking phone as the iphone.
Feb 05 17:05:43 <zhobbs> it's up to the developers to support both
Feb 05 17:06:23 <zelip> but there's a world of difference between the two.  One same OS idea will not work with both..
Feb 05 17:06:48 <zelip> at least not in a good way.. (wm6 is the live example)
Feb 05 17:37:47 <morrildl> home again, home again
Feb 05 17:37:50 <morrildl> jiggety jig
Feb 05 17:37:51 <mike1o> what is the screen size of the phone in pixels?
Feb 05 17:38:38 <morrildl> mike1o: it can vary
Feb 05 17:38:52 <mike1o> oh ok
Feb 05 17:39:04 <morrildl> The most common resolutions will be HVGA (480x320) and QVGA (320x240)
Feb 05 17:39:12 <morrildl> some will be landscape, some will portrait
Feb 05 17:40:36 <zhobbs> morrildl, you just get back from all those days of code?
Feb 05 17:40:55 <morrildl> zhobbs: yup
Feb 05 17:41:04 <morrildl> well, technically I was back Saturday
Feb 05 17:41:10 <morrildl> but I caught the flu in Tel Aviv :P
Feb 05 17:41:51 <mike1o> is there any practical advantage in submitting the project earlier than the expiration date?
Feb 05 17:42:02 <morrildl> mike1o: not really
Feb 05 17:42:23 <morrildl> judging won't begin until the deadline
Feb 05 17:42:33 <morrildl> ...and you can resubmit if you want or need to
Feb 05 17:42:36 <zhobbs> morrildl, you going to barcelona?
Feb 05 17:42:39 <mike1o> ok :)
Feb 05 17:44:02 <mike1o> I assume functionality is going to be considered more in important than looks right?
Feb 05 17:44:26 <morrildl> mike1o: yup
Feb 05 17:44:32 <morrildl> for the most part, at least
Feb 05 17:44:36 <mike1o> though so :)
Feb 05 17:44:49 <morrildl> obviously if it comes down to the judges deciding between two apps, the prettier one will probably win
Feb 05 17:45:11 <morrildl> but in general we will be favoring neat ideas over flashy UIs and so on
Feb 05 17:45:26 <mike1o> it's really an interesting project to be part of even if I don't actually win anything
Feb 05 17:47:04 <mike1o> the judges will be testing apps for harsh situations too?
Feb 05 17:48:22 <mike1o> I mean like traffic intensive cases...
Feb 05 17:52:11 <mike1o> morrildl, what about documentation and code readability? will you be considering this also?
Feb 05 17:52:51 <zhobbs> mike1o, you don't send the code
Feb 05 17:52:52 <morrildl> mike1o: you aren't required to submit source code, so readibility there doesn't matter :)
Feb 05 17:53:02 <mike1o> oh yeah... oops
Feb 05 17:53:04 <morrildl> well, unless you care about it yourself anyway :)
Feb 05 17:53:19 <morrildl> for documentation, your "README" file just needs to be "Adequate"
Feb 05 17:53:27 <zhobbs> morrildl, I see on the form the only upload is the package and documentation...what if I want to provide mock location providers, etc?
Feb 05 17:53:29 <mike1o> sorry Ill stop bugging you guys with all these questions :)
Feb 05 17:53:56 <morrildl> mike1o: no problem, that's what we're here for!
Feb 05 17:54:09 <morrildl> zhobbs: hmm
Feb 05 17:54:09 <mike1o> so it's not really opensource is it?
Feb 05 17:54:58 <morrildl> zhobbs: you can't include it in a single large .apk?
Feb 05 17:55:06 <morrildl> mike1o: what are you referring to?
Feb 05 17:55:35 <zhobbs> yeah, but then the judges would have to extract the apk and then move the kml/properties files to /data/misc/location
Feb 05 17:55:38 <mike1o> morrildl, I mean if we don't submit the source code... thus the source is not open
Feb 05 17:55:51 <zhobbs> hmm...unless /data/misc/location is writable by the apps...I'd have to check on that
Feb 05 17:56:01 <morrildl> mike1o: correct, your apps don't have to be open source
Feb 05 17:56:05 <zhobbs> mike1o, submissions don't have to be open source
Feb 05 17:56:43 <zhobbs> I have a feeling apps can't write to /data/misc/location
Feb 05 17:56:46 <morrildl> zhobbs: how big are these files?
Feb 05 17:56:57 <zhobbs> not very large at all
Feb 05 17:57:08 <davidw> morrildl, welcome back
Feb 05 17:57:13 <morrildl> davidw: thanks :)
Feb 05 17:57:26 <zhobbs> one I'm looking at is 100k
Feb 05 17:58:14 <morrildl> zhobbs: okay, I will bring this up and find out how we want to handle it.  It may be that you just create a .zip file with whatever files you want, including your .apk
Feb 05 17:58:23 <morrildl> and attach that instead of a single .apk
Feb 05 17:58:43 <zhobbs> morrildl, thanks
Feb 05 17:59:38 <zhobbs> morrildl, I want to make it as easy as possible for the judges...and for location based services you might need to provide specific paths to follow for the app to do anything
Feb 05 18:00:07 <morrildl> zhobbs: yeah, gotcha
Feb 05 18:00:31 <morrildl> I definitely hear what you're saying, and I bet you're not the only one in that situation
Feb 05 18:00:39 <morrildl> We'll figure out what we want folks to do
Feb 05 18:00:49 <morrildl> "easy for the judges" is indeed quite important :)
Feb 05 18:02:03 <zhobbs> yeah, wonder if judges can "adb push ..."
Feb 05 18:04:58 <mike1o> are the judges google only people? or are there gonna be delegates from the openhandsetalliance? when are the results coming out for the contest? who holds the legal ownership of the apps?
Feb 05 18:05:23 <mike1o> I know that's way too many questions... :)
Feb 05 18:05:48 <davidw> mike1o, IIRC, people from Italy can't participate:-/
Feb 05 18:05:59 <mike1o> no :(
Feb 05 18:06:12 <davidw> mike1o, they said there would be judges from the other companies
Feb 05 18:08:17 <mike1o> davidw, hey it's gonna be like italian soccer league :-)
Feb 05 18:09:22 <mike1o> or even worse... like italian politics :-(
Feb 05 18:11:18 <davidw> I don't think it'll be quite that bad;-)
Feb 05 18:11:38 <mike1o> eheh
Feb 05 18:11:56 <davidw> Berlusconi would have already declared himself the winner
Feb 05 18:12:29 <mike1o> can't get worse than that...
Feb 05 18:15:17 <mike1o> he would have made an app to watch TV eheh
Feb 05 18:16:19 <zhobbs> that would save me so much time
Feb 05 18:16:24 <zhobbs> j/k :)
Feb 05 19:59:02 <davidw> damn, I can't make it give me the caller's number
Feb 05 19:59:20 <zhobbs> yeah, I've heard that you can get it after the call is over :)
Feb 05 20:01:46 <davidw> I've been digging and digging to see if I can find another way
Feb 05 20:02:50 <davidw> it's been fun, but as far as I can tell, PhoneUtils is the only thing that is able to give you that information
Feb 05 20:02:57 <davidw> give you/access
Feb 05 22:27:32 <chomchom> If anyone from Google is reading
Feb 05 22:28:21 <chomchom> Coming from a web design background I've experienced a lot of old problems that I've experienced making web pages
Feb 05 22:29:48 <chomchom> CSS and HTML tables are a nightmare to debug without the webdesign tool bar or firebug plugin for firefox. Or alternatively applying borders to all your page elements (DIVS & Table Cells /rows )
Feb 05 22:29:56 <chomchom> A really
Feb 05 22:30:03 <chomchom> really helpful option
Feb 05 22:30:43 <chomchom> would be to include a debug option in the emulator that would outline all the page elements with a coloured border to quickly get an idea of the DOM
Feb 05 22:31:03 <chomchom> like -layout-borders
Feb 05 22:35:51 <chomchom> is there any official place to post suggestions for future emulator enhancements?
Feb 05 22:37:00 <davidw> chomchom, maybe there's something for webkit out there already?
Feb 05 22:37:06 <davidw> there's an issue tracker
Feb 05 22:37:35 <zhobbs> chomchom, you're not talking about web development right, just xml layout development?
Feb 05 22:39:14 <chomchom> yeah I'm talking about laying out the UI elements for androids LinearLayout/TableLayout, etc. Using the res/ etc.
Feb 05 22:39:22 <davidw> ah
Feb 05 22:39:49 <chomchom> Do you know what I mean though?
Feb 05 22:40:21 <chomchom> remember how much more efficient web designers became all of a sudden the minute we could see the bounds of our DIVs in the DOM?
Feb 05 22:41:28 <chomchom> even like an emulator feature that would place an overlay over the screen that you could hover over the individually drawn objects on the screen.
Feb 05 22:41:37 <chomchom> like the accessability toolbar for ie
Feb 05 23:10:08 <HalfShell> Is there a way to access a USB port on a phone (the one many use for charging) through the Android SDK?
Feb 05 23:13:13 <zhobbs> HalfShell, yeah, but I don't think it's implemented
Feb 05 23:13:46 <HalfShell> Im intereted in having Android interact with other electronics and use the cell phone as a base. So you're saying that its a possible feature or a known feature for a future release?
Feb 05 23:13:58 <HalfShell> And I guess the next question is whether bluetooth would be a viable option.
Feb 05 23:14:36 <zhobbs> Looks like you can have the phone be a mass storage device: http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/os/IUsb.html
Feb 05 23:15:31 <HalfShell> mmmm i Found that before zhobbs. My ultimae hope is they institute some kind of Serial class that uses the USB like a COM port.
Feb 05 23:16:41 <zhobbs> Hmm, I would think bluetooth would be better for something like that
Feb 05 23:18:08 <HalfShell> :-D well, not for my purposes. Long story short I'm thinking of using Android as a platform to turn cell phones into extremely capable robot controllers. I need to get the Android SDK to talk to a miro controller... I'll have to look into bluetooth if USB is not an option though
Feb 05 23:20:19 <HalfShell> It also raises a good question - does the Eclipse plugin and virtual phone emulator allow me to access USB ports and bluetooth on my computer as the phone's?
Feb 05 23:22:09 <chomchom> HalfShell: thats  a sweet idea
Feb 05 23:22:36 <chomchom> You know that that lego that you build robots out of?
Feb 05 23:22:47 <chomchom> they have rather complicated controllers
Feb 05 23:23:02 <chomchom> And already have a huge fanbase;
Feb 05 23:23:07 <chomchom> all of them geeks
Feb 05 23:23:43 <chomchom> I bet they'd be really greatful if you made a project that could control their robots
Feb 05 23:24:07 <chomchom> their the ones most likely to have an alpha geek phone like the gphone when it first comes out
Feb 05 23:24:16 <HalfShell> Well im planning a general use one
Feb 05 23:24:18 <HalfShell> but in theory
Feb 05 23:24:20 <HalfShell> yeah you could use it with that
Feb 05 23:25:09 <HalfShell> but the challenge is getting android to talk to a micro controller
Feb 05 23:25:09 <chomchom> How would you implement a general interface to robots?
Feb 05 23:25:13 <HalfShell> so i can control motors
Feb 05 23:25:36 <HalfShell> Most micro controllers can listen and talk via a serial port, be it an actual serial port or a USB to serial port interface
Feb 05 23:26:02 <HalfShell> if the micro controller and a general Android application for robotics talks to eachother changing messages that convey information back and forth
Feb 05 23:26:12 <HalfShell> Android could in theory take sensor input and then command the motors.
Feb 05 23:26:32 <chomchom> what I'm thinking of is the API implementation and interface must already be there and fleshed out for the lego robots.
Feb 05 23:26:35 <HalfShell> Which is good cause cell phones have bluetooth, wifi, GPS, and cellular conncetions and webcams in a cheap package
Feb 05 23:26:48 <HalfShell> hmmm
Feb 05 23:27:44 <HalfShell> really as soon as I can figure out how to create some kind of serial interface between the phone and a micro controller 90% of the work is done - ive done similar programs on laptops and PCs before :-p
Feb 05 23:28:05 <HalfShell> so hence the tackling of the USB/bluetooth questions now
Feb 05 23:28:20 <chomchom> thats really good, look forward to seeing something ilke that.
Feb 05 23:28:35 <morrildl> The main question is whether actual devices will have USB host controllers
Feb 05 23:28:41 <morrildl> that's still pretty uncommon
Feb 05 23:28:57 <HalfShell> mmmm
Feb 05 23:28:58 <morrildl> Bluetooth is probably more likely to be enabled on a handset
Feb 05 23:29:02 <HalfShell> or if i Could pull it off through blue tooth
Feb 05 23:29:12 <HalfShell> I was under the impression that USB was becoming common place on cell phones
Feb 05 23:29:20 <HalfShell> motorolas are coming out with them more and mroe
Feb 05 23:29:24 <morrildl> maybe, I don't follow cell phones quite that closely :)
Feb 05 23:29:24 <chomchom> one really far out option is...
Feb 05 23:29:42 <morrildl> not ALL devices will have them, certainly
Feb 05 23:29:50 <HalfShell> this is true
Feb 05 23:30:25 <HalfShell> Ive never written a program that uses bluetooth before... this should be... interesting.
Feb 05 23:30:43 <chomchom> that if you implemented both an interface and a controller on the Android platform then you could have one phone talk to another. The result being that you would have one android phone as a host. That phone would sit in the belly of the robot (since its running linux anyway).
Feb 05 23:30:46 <morrildl> assuming you're willing to make that compromise (your app will only work on devices that have a host controller) then it comes down to the APIs for it
Feb 05 23:31:00 <morrildl> I doubt we'll bother to expose an API for USB-serial
Feb 05 23:31:07 <chomchom> this way you could test it without an actual physical implementation
Feb 05 23:31:25 <HalfShell> so morrildl youre suggesting find a way to go through bluetooth
Feb 05 23:31:32 <HalfShell> since nearly all phones will have it
Feb 05 23:31:44 <morrildl> well, certainly far more than will have a USB host controller
Feb 05 23:32:01 <morrildl> I'm saying that would be the route for maximum compatibility :)
Feb 05 23:32:02 <chomchom> that way you could even phone your robot or communicate with it via xmpp
Feb 05 23:32:30 <morrildl> someone hacking on robots is likely to be something of an enthusiast anyway, so it may be just fine for you to limit yourself to USB-only
Feb 05 23:32:46 <HalfShell> well for the USB problem
Feb 05 23:32:56 <HalfShell> my original idea was to fine one android compatible cheap phone with the USB and use that as a base
Feb 05 23:33:01 <HalfShell> but bluetooth could also be a good option.
Feb 05 23:33:09 <morrildl> I'd say go with BT
Feb 05 23:33:15 <morrildl> if nothing else, then no wires :)
Feb 05 23:33:46 <HalfShell> is there a way to treat a bluetooth connection like a serial connection? the easiest way to do this is to just have hte micro controller and the phone send strings back and forth
Feb 05 23:37:55 <HalfShell> bbl, thank you for the help
Feb 05 23:43:24 <chomchom> Just found a work around for that render bug with the referenced style values on strings being copied to their neighbours
Feb 05 23:44:07 <chomchom> See if for instance you have a string <string name="me">text</string
Feb 05 23:44:55 <chomchom> in order to properly apply bold to it just wrap it in the bold tag twice like <string name="me"><b><b>text</b></b></string>
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Feb 06 02:59:57 2008