**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 18 02:59:57 2008 Feb 18 03:00:15 what prevents you from doing that in AlertDialog.Builder? Feb 18 03:00:28 AlertDialog.Builder.addItems() Feb 18 03:00:52 I see a setItems() Feb 18 03:00:53 public Builder setItems(CharSequence[] items, final OnClickListener listener) { Feb 18 03:01:07 M6? :) Feb 18 03:01:12 ah possibly Feb 18 03:01:19 http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/app/AlertDialog.Builder.html Feb 18 03:02:05 in case you missed it: http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/app/AlertDialog.Builder.html Feb 18 03:02:10 I guess you'll have to wait for the next SDK :) Feb 18 03:02:12 Yeah I saw it Feb 18 03:02:21 Well, so the answer is: "it's fixed in the next SDK" Feb 18 03:02:22 :) Feb 18 03:03:59 ok, already reported it at #293 Feb 18 03:04:05 let me close it them Feb 18 03:04:26 heh. Sneaky. Feb 18 03:05:40 wonder if a bugfix sdk will be coming out in the next couple weeks... Feb 18 03:06:28 romainguy_: you got any thoughts on my question about the obfuscator/optimizers? Feb 18 03:07:10 jerkface03: what question? Feb 18 03:10:51 romainguy_: is it possible to make the selected item show in touch mode for a list view? Feb 18 03:11:28 no Feb 18 03:11:56 romainguy_: would using proguard or another bytecode obfuscator/optimizer prevent conversion of javabytecode to dalvikvm bytecode? Feb 18 03:12:25 jerkface03: I don't think so Feb 18 03:12:25 and all the optimizations be beneficial in dalvik (inlining, peep-hole optimizations, stack operation optimization, etc..) Feb 18 03:12:39 but you would have to prevent obfuscation of Activity, Views, etc. Feb 18 03:12:42 and would rather Feb 18 03:12:52 as for the optimizations I doubt you would gain much Feb 18 03:13:00 romainguy_: whys that? Feb 18 03:13:11 Dalvik is not a stack-based VM so it basically rewrite the code when it compiles to .dex Feb 18 03:13:28 well thats just 1 optimization technique out of many Feb 18 03:13:50 You can always try Feb 18 03:14:04 yep gonna give it a go when i get home tonight Feb 18 03:14:12 hopefuly i'll see some performance improvements in my project Feb 18 03:14:15 but there's no guarantee that the optimizations will survive the dex conversion, that's all Feb 18 03:14:45 I'd rather optimize my code than try to rely on such a tool Feb 18 03:14:49 but that's my personal take on it :) Feb 18 03:15:52 romainguy_: well, theres only so much i can do AND keep the code semi-readable at the same time Feb 18 03:15:57 you know what i mean? Feb 18 03:16:20 if i tried to manually inline everythign i could then i'd just end up with a bunch of spagetti code Feb 18 03:16:31 yes I do know what you mean :) Feb 18 03:16:49 I spent lots of time these past three months optimizing the layout/drawing/invalidate code paths in the UI toolkit Feb 18 03:16:58 and the code looks more like C code than Java code now ^^ Feb 18 03:17:10 but it was worth it Feb 18 03:17:30 unfortunately, we're coding for small devices with limited capacities and we have to sacrifice niceties on the code side Feb 18 03:17:47 i know i know ;) Feb 18 03:17:54 ok, back to work i go Feb 18 03:17:56 thanks Feb 18 03:18:03 We'll let you away with it since its a platform. Feb 18 03:19:01 chomchom: ? Feb 18 03:20:26 I'm not a fan of obfuscated java code in open source projects. I really don't enjoy working with people who right unreadable fast java code. Feb 18 03:20:43 I agree Feb 18 03:20:51 unfortunately rules are different for Android Feb 18 03:21:05 that said, we try to keep our code clean and readable (we have peer reviews for every change) Feb 18 03:21:28 The human factor contributes ten fold to the productivity where otherwise the processing may be sacrificed Feb 18 03:21:47 I understand the need with such a project definetly Feb 18 03:22:06 and note that I'm talking about only performance critical code paths :) Feb 18 03:22:17 I just hope those who create their projects on the platform choose where they make the same choices wisely. Feb 18 03:22:18 and they represent a tiny fraction of the whole source code Feb 18 03:23:12 but yeah, you probably don't want to have to fix a bug in ViewGroup.dispatchDraw() :)) Feb 18 03:23:40 Projects may be open, but the term 'open' should entail that it is easily interpreted. Feb 18 03:23:44 :) Feb 18 03:23:49 :)) Feb 18 03:24:03 well, overall I find the source base rather easy to navigate through Feb 18 03:24:14 but the framework does do some complicated things and try to do them fast Feb 18 03:24:33 for instance, ListView and GridView do a lot of work for the applications Feb 18 03:24:43 it's not the easiest classes to understand Feb 18 03:24:47 even though the code is pretty readable Feb 18 03:25:37 I hope we'll be seeing a few more interfaces in the future. There are an awful lot of methods exposed to subclasses. Makes it quite scary. Feb 18 03:26:35 we agree Feb 18 03:26:42 unfortunately interfaces are expensive :( Feb 18 03:27:02 Ah is that why? Feb 18 03:27:10 never knew that. Feb 18 03:27:18 calling an interface method is a lot more expensive than calling a regular method Feb 18 03:27:28 because there are extra checks involved Feb 18 03:27:50 I can't figure out how to set the text color in a ProgressDialog, it's black for some reason...(Activity that launches it has black text) Feb 18 03:28:01 and while it's fine in most cases, it adds up pretty quickly in the critical code paths of the UI framework where we call some methods thousands and thousands of times Feb 18 03:29:03 chomchom: I can give you an example of an optimization I did not so long ago Feb 18 03:29:13 ViewGroup used to keep its children in a ArrayList Feb 18 03:29:18 which makes perfect sense right? Feb 18 03:29:29 yup Feb 18 03:29:33 semantically Feb 18 03:29:45 well using ArrayList implied two things: Feb 18 03:29:49 - lots of method calls to get() Feb 18 03:29:58 - lots of casts due to the generics usage Feb 18 03:30:08 Now ViewGroup uses a simple View[] array Feb 18 03:30:20 that means ViewGroup has to handle the growing of the array itself Feb 18 03:30:43 *but* this changed removed thousands of methods calls in the UI toolkit Feb 18 03:30:45 Ah, that will be why there is quite a lot of vanilla Array data available. Feb 18 03:30:59 which resulted, in the case of an animated list scrolling, in a few more frames per second on real hardware Feb 18 03:31:29 so we are constantly struggling between having clean APIs and implementations and going fast Feb 18 03:31:31 and it Feb 18 03:31:36 and it's not that easy :) Feb 18 03:31:55 (it's also why Animation is now a class and not an interface, it made it just a tad faster but it paid off) Feb 18 04:08:17 Hooray my project has came on leaps and bounds, its now 4am and I'm working in at 9. The 'zone' is an unforgiving place. Feb 18 04:08:32 ^^ Feb 18 06:59:41 Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will have to ram it down their throats. - Howard Aiken Feb 18 06:59:44 hehe Feb 18 07:00:07 applicable to all those idiots pretending trying to hide their ADC projects from the world ;) Feb 18 07:00:15 s/pretending // Feb 18 07:00:15 jasta meant: applicable to all those idiots trying to hide their ADC projects from the world ;) Feb 18 07:58:49 don't call me an idiot :( Feb 18 07:59:17 jerkface03: jasta likes to think highly of himself ;-) Feb 18 07:59:25 lol Feb 18 08:18:44 here's an idea: Feb 18 08:18:56 dating on your mobile Feb 18 08:19:11 i use to work for a company that did that ;x Feb 18 08:19:36 they're very profitable Feb 18 08:20:08 yeah.. agree Feb 18 08:20:43 hope google likes it Feb 18 08:21:03 and i'm sure there will be like a million submissions on this one Feb 18 08:21:37 shopping, dating and trading Feb 18 08:21:47 this is what i keep hearing in the androidsphere Feb 18 08:24:11 ? Feb 18 08:24:14 androidsphere? Feb 18 08:24:53 that's my word Feb 18 08:25:04 for everything related to android Feb 18 08:26:03 jerk: is that company still exists? Feb 18 08:27:24 yep Feb 18 08:27:40 http://www.airg.com/ Feb 18 08:27:55 thx..i'll check it out Feb 18 08:39:44 everything is a sphere these days... I guess it started with 'blogosphere', which is a wretched word Feb 18 08:40:23 wasn't that a word conjured up by cnn? Feb 18 08:46:31 how about 'planetandroid' ? Feb 18 09:08:05 *DANCE* Feb 18 09:28:39 java.io.FileNotFoundException: Database at /mismatched_uid/settings_10006/fs_10007/databases/webview.db could not be created Feb 18 09:28:41 that's odd Feb 18 09:54:09 damnit Feb 18 13:25:46 hi, I wonder if the previous (and much nicer) UI is included in the new SDK release and where are settings to restore it Feb 18 14:24:01 hey guys, can on start the Maps-Activity with >Driving Directions< from A to B just with an Intent ? Feb 18 15:34:51 ping? Feb 18 15:35:29 zomg, an update! Feb 18 15:35:57 figures they'd release it while i was busy at a conference Feb 18 15:35:57 lol Feb 18 15:36:16 sdk ? Feb 18 15:37:52 you mean that 5 days old update ? Feb 18 15:38:44 yeah, i been away though so i only just caught it Feb 18 15:38:57 so expect tne new and ugly gui :) Feb 18 15:39:07 I want the old one back ! Feb 18 15:49:49 changes were made for touch reasons .... **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 18 18:44:15 2008 **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Feb 18 18:47:08 2008 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 18 19:56:14 2008 Feb 18 20:02:49 ah we saw plusminus here :) Feb 18 20:57:12 f00f-: is he special? Feb 18 20:59:42 jasta, he's like an electron at rest in that he equals 0 Feb 18 21:02:08 i genuinely don't know how to interpret that analogy. Feb 18 21:02:25 does that mean he's not special, because he has equal mass to all others? :) Feb 18 21:05:46 I have no idea Feb 18 21:07:27 you said it. Feb 18 21:07:46 jasta: he's the anddev.org guy Feb 18 21:07:49 so yeah Feb 18 21:07:57 what's anddev.org? Feb 18 21:08:08 oh hehe, that thing? oh jeez. Feb 18 21:08:15 very helpful forums Feb 18 21:08:17 for newbs and clewbs alike Feb 18 21:08:21 and myself :) Feb 18 21:08:47 i hate that drop shadow effect Feb 18 21:11:03 why not just use the google group? Feb 18 21:12:26 f00f-: i don't generally regard those tutorials as special, but i suppose it is nice that they exist for everyone else. Feb 18 21:13:27 the bits of android I like to see discussed are the things that are particularly non-trivial. things like the XML layouts and drawables, since they really are so poorly documented by Google. Feb 18 21:16:52 xml drawables are not documented at all :( Feb 18 21:25:48 yeha their documentations absolutely sucks Feb 18 21:26:20 because the google group isn't a community feeling Feb 18 21:26:50 I think the docs are ok myself Feb 18 21:27:20 I think there is a big disconnect between people coming into Android expecting a polished commercial product, and those of us used to open source stuff, which usually has way less in terms of docs Feb 18 21:29:12 yea Feb 18 21:29:20 but expectations++ when it comes from google Feb 18 21:29:25 we want it to be pre-polished Feb 18 21:29:29 davidw: up to a point I'd agree Feb 18 21:29:29 in the emulator's browser im going to http://localhost with 'netcat -l -p 80' running locally but the browser says no connection. any ideas? Feb 18 21:29:31 but as we all know it's not there yet Feb 18 21:29:56 donomo: you trying to connect to your PC or to emulator? Feb 18 21:29:57 donomo: what is the EXACT ERROR given by the browser Feb 18 21:30:07 I think it's far likelier to get to a 'there' that more people like by having it at least semi-open as it is now Feb 18 21:30:08 zhobbs: yes, curl http://localhost works fine Feb 18 21:30:13 not even google is omniscient Feb 18 21:30:16 ...yet... Feb 18 21:30:17 donomo: on your pc? Feb 18 21:30:35 f00f-: 'Network error Failed to connect to server' Feb 18 21:30:38 zhobbs: ? Feb 18 21:30:45 so you can telnet to localhost on 80 Feb 18 21:30:47 try 127.0.0.1 Feb 18 21:30:50 donomo: localhost on the emulator refers to the emulator's system, not the PC...you need to use your PC's IP address Feb 18 21:30:52 might be thinking ipv6 (::1) Feb 18 21:30:57 f00f-: donomo> zhobbs: yes, curl http://localhost works fine Feb 18 21:31:01 in the browser Feb 18 21:31:14 zhobbs: oh i think i see Feb 18 21:31:38 yeah, use 192.168.1.x or however your network is setup Feb 18 21:32:00 netcat should listen on all interfaces Feb 18 21:32:08 so it shoulnd't matter Feb 18 21:32:10 zhobbs: that did it, thx. Feb 18 21:32:12 no google guys today....hrm. Maybe there off watching the bike race Feb 18 21:32:21 they got the day off Feb 18 21:32:23 unlike the rest of us Feb 18 21:32:38 im using my day off to play with android Feb 18 21:33:12 rubbing it in real good :) Feb 18 21:33:21 for the next couple months playing with android is my job Feb 18 21:33:32 zhobbs: nice Feb 18 21:33:40 im loving the new UI Feb 18 21:33:49 pretty buttons Feb 18 21:33:51 oh... it's president's day Feb 18 21:34:00 yeah, although all the widgets are too big now imho Feb 18 21:37:42 f00f-: they got the day off << yep no work for us ^^ Feb 18 21:37:51 f00f-: they're not too big on a real device, trust me Feb 18 21:38:24 * donomo needs a real device Feb 18 21:39:11 haha, no cafeteria food for you guys then :) Feb 18 21:40:39 unfortunately :) Feb 18 21:45:37 romainguy, looked a the gtakl stuff at all? E/Notification( 539): This constructor doesn't work correctly anymore Feb 18 21:45:45 E/Notification( 539): at android.app.Notification.(Notification.java:172) Feb 18 21:46:05 btw, nice picture for the m5 screen:-) Feb 18 21:50:43 thanks :) Feb 18 21:50:53 As for Gtalk I never used the API Feb 18 21:51:04 but android.app.Notification has nothing to do with Gtalk?! Feb 18 21:55:32 romainguy, well... http://code.google.com/android/reference/com/google/android/gtalkservice/IChatSession.html#addRemoteChatListener(com.google.android.gtalkservice.IChatListener) Feb 18 22:21:35 romainguy___: Speaking of GTalk, I am lost at what Google's masterplan is with this protocol. Feb 18 22:21:53 Are tehy intending to use GTalk/XMPP to replace the need for SMS for service implementations / device alerts? Feb 18 22:22:09 So that we can say a big "fuck you" to wireless carriers? Feb 18 22:22:38 I have no idea Feb 18 22:22:40 Or is this just a simple novelty to implement boring games? Feb 18 22:22:53 but I don't see why both couldn't coexist Feb 18 22:23:05 operators aren't keen on IM-style services Feb 18 22:23:10 some actively block them Feb 18 22:23:35 not to mention that if you're paying by the kb... any IM is going to cost more than SMS Feb 18 22:23:44 I'm not talking about IM-style service.s Feb 18 22:24:17 yeah, I know but it uses the same infrastructure really Feb 18 22:24:29 romainguy___: The former is only possible if Google organizes it as such. Feb 18 22:24:48 For example, GTalk would need to be built-in to the handset UI as a central feature for all applications to depend upon. Feb 18 22:24:55 Central configuration, "always-on" connection, etc. Feb 18 22:25:06 well right now GTalk is not in the android.* packages Feb 18 22:25:08 so... Feb 18 22:25:38 Right, I understand that. But it seems to be that Google might be sitting on a great idea here that will go nowhere if someone doesn't realize a greater vision. Feb 18 22:26:56 GTalk can be a stupid gimmick to implements games, or it can be a way to derail SMS as a means of machine-to-machine communication. Feb 18 22:28:00 jasta, even if that's their 'Cunning Plan' - they're not going to announce it on IRC Feb 18 22:28:16 SMS has a few technical hurdles, of course, but the biggest hurdle is the insane premiums imposed by the carriers. Feb 18 22:28:16 SMS == big bucks Feb 18 22:29:01 Stephmw, IM costs more than SMS? hrm.... actually the rise of IM services seems to indicate that in many cases that's not entirely true Feb 18 22:29:58 davidw: regionally? until recently O2 in the uk charged £0.20/100KB Feb 18 22:30:14 and how much did it charge per SMS? Feb 18 22:30:29 davidw: Perhaps I can influence their "cunning plan" by asking about it? :) Feb 18 22:30:47 less, obviously - the issue with IM is that most IM services carry a hefty overhead in traffic Feb 18 22:30:49 jasta, I think that one's obvious enough that they've already made their decisions Feb 18 22:31:02 I'm not saying that 1xIM > 1xSMS ;) Feb 18 22:31:44 Stephmw: Android clearly isn't interested in markets that have outrageous data tariffs ;) Feb 18 22:34:35 My ADC project would literally cost you a fortune to use at even 5c/100KB. Feb 18 22:35:21 This reminds me of the time I was snowed in at my girlfriend's house with my brand new laptop and no Internet connection. Feb 18 22:35:34 5c/100kb? sounds like a dream Feb 18 22:35:39 its 5c/kb here Feb 18 22:35:42 I hooked up my mobile and did a Debian netinstall with it. My usage that month was over a 1GB. Feb 18 22:35:47 -a Feb 18 22:35:55 jerkface03: no unlimited plans? Feb 18 22:36:14 romainguy___: well, they just started them at the end of last year Feb 18 22:36:18 but even those are a bit too expensive for me Feb 18 22:36:23 i think it runs at $500/month Feb 18 22:36:27 ouch Feb 18 22:36:28 500 or 300 Feb 18 22:36:29 i forget Feb 18 22:36:31 in the US, unlimited plans are $25/mo usually. it's great. Feb 18 22:36:47 $40/mo if you're a sucker ;) Feb 18 22:36:57 I love my unlimited plan ^^ Feb 18 22:37:06 jasta: with who? cingular at&t? Feb 18 22:37:11 jerkface03: AT&T, yes. Feb 18 22:37:20 Verizon is the same, Sprint is even better ($20/mo, I think). Feb 18 22:37:24 T-Mobile may be even cheaper still. Feb 18 22:37:50 The US is much more progressive on cellular data access than Europe. Feb 18 22:38:11 i have 384kbit 3g unlimited for 9e/month Feb 18 22:38:14 Which is surprising, considering our relative population densities. Feb 18 22:38:23 jasta: er... Feb 18 22:38:29 jasta: I wouldn't go as far as that Feb 18 22:38:37 jasta: I had much cheaper voice/sms plans in Europe Feb 18 22:38:42 jasta: with much better coverage Feb 18 22:38:48 That's not cellular data access, is it? Feb 18 22:38:55 argh Feb 18 22:39:02 didn't read the data part ^^ Feb 18 22:39:10 on that I agree Feb 18 22:39:14 data plans are better here Feb 18 22:39:26 although I don't know what they are now with the iPhone Feb 18 22:39:30 it's probably the same prices Feb 18 22:39:39 And I submit that Android is targetting regions with sane data plans. Android is certain to be very data heavy. Feb 18 22:39:46 and 2M/2M for 29,80e Feb 18 22:40:12 * davidw thinks google is a bit US centric in any case... Feb 18 22:40:25 I think Android is certainly focused on the US market, yes. Feb 18 22:40:40 But only because Japan is impenetrable :) Feb 18 22:41:03 And Europe is insane. Feb 18 22:41:05 * Hiisty thinks that US is one decade behind EU in wireless communications Feb 18 22:41:45 Hiisty: How would you benchmark that? Feb 18 22:42:06 jasta: well iphone is the best bechmark Feb 18 22:42:18 jasta: And Europe is insane. << how so? Feb 18 22:42:18 I think if we were to average all mobile innovation US/EU we'd come out somewhere around 1990 Feb 18 22:42:29 Hiisty: In what sense? Feb 18 22:42:37 romainguy___: Their data tariffs, as I said before. Feb 18 22:43:04 Canada also has per KB download rates I believe. Feb 18 22:43:26 can you get unlocked phones in the US? Feb 18 22:43:29 But really, I think all of this is changing rapidly. Android may make its mark here as well. Feb 18 22:43:34 jasta: well, we (ppl in EU) think that iphone is so old technology that nobody who isn't fanboy will buy it Feb 18 22:43:49 davidw: Sort of. It's not very institutionalized, but you can get them on eBay. Feb 18 22:43:59 hey, he's from Nokialand, no wonder:-) Feb 18 22:44:15 Hiisty, I think that, to be fair, the iPhone is innovative in some ways Feb 18 22:44:28 Hiisty: So you have visual voicemail? ;) Feb 18 22:44:55 davidw: innovative, yes. but it does have old technology Feb 18 22:44:56 davidw: buying a phone without a plan is annoying here :) Feb 18 22:45:16 jasta: no i dont;) Feb 18 22:45:19 jasta, it's pretty easy to buy them in europe. Also, caller pays is the rule, which is one more reason that lots of people have phones compared to the US (although maybe that's finally evening out?) Feb 18 22:46:02 romainguy___: What phone sits in your pocket currently, BTW? Feb 18 22:46:07 jasta: an iPhone Feb 18 22:46:11 Of course ;) Feb 18 22:46:14 what about before that? :) Feb 18 22:46:14 i have nokia e90 Feb 18 22:46:24 jasta: a Sony Ericsson W810i Feb 18 22:46:25 loved that one Feb 18 22:47:02 i am a bit disenchanted because i can't really use an iPhone, and so might not even be able to use the first Android phones released :) Feb 18 22:47:15 jasta: why is that? Feb 18 22:47:40 (the only thing is miss on my iPhone compared to my old Sony is the ability to install Salling Clicker) Feb 18 22:48:00 romainguy___: It's personal, I have medical problems :) Feb 18 22:48:01 romainguy___: and MMS, and video? Feb 18 22:48:33 Hiisty: I couldn't care less Feb 18 22:48:38 :) Feb 18 22:48:48 me neither Feb 18 22:49:02 * davidw smells checklist features Feb 18 22:49:08 ^^ Feb 18 22:49:11 but i must confess, that i hate everything with apple logo Feb 18 22:49:16 and fanboys Feb 18 22:49:26 Hiisty: you can use an iPhone without being a fanboy :) Feb 18 22:49:40 yes, but i have better phone in my pocket Feb 18 22:49:48 in your opinion sure :) Feb 18 22:49:54 I like my devices and apps to look good and be simple Feb 18 22:49:55 and i always will have Feb 18 22:49:58 apple is synonymous with douchebags and bums Feb 18 22:50:00 But you're also a Nokia fanboy, so. Feb 18 22:50:06 I don't care about features Feb 18 22:50:10 I'm a graphics whore ;-) Feb 18 22:50:26 jasta: true Feb 18 22:50:35 romainguy___: You're just not being very abstract is all, you care about features: the exact set of them you want. Feb 18 22:50:45 I think people get kicked out of .fi if they don't like Nokia Feb 18 22:51:05 jasta: you know what I mean Feb 18 22:51:08 but compare e90 and iphone and u will understand why i have this Feb 18 22:51:28 romainguy___: *grin* Feb 18 22:51:29 davidw: if they kicked too many out, there;d be nobody left Feb 18 22:51:29 Hiisty, well, first of all because you can't buy an iphone there, right? Feb 18 22:51:32 davidw: that is true :) Feb 18 22:51:47 romainguy___: I was being practical though, for example, Exchange synchronization is important to me, and the iphone doesn't offer it anyhow. Feb 18 22:51:58 jasta: that I understand Feb 18 22:51:59 So I don't really "care about features", but I'm pissed it doesn't have that one. Feb 18 22:52:04 davidw: well not at the moment, but u can buy one from germany and unlock it Feb 18 22:52:13 So it's quite obtuse to say something like that. Feb 18 22:52:44 * davidw is pretty enamored of things open... Feb 18 22:53:07 I understand that Android will probably ship without Exchange support, but I'm hoping that it will come. If not, maybe I'll do it :) Feb 18 22:53:09 jasta: sure, but I won't be pissed because it doesn't have *insert something* Feb 18 22:53:24 jasta: as I said, phone and email is all I need and pretty much all phones do that now Feb 18 22:55:59 romainguy___: I need only freecell, rss news, and Exchange synchronization. Feb 18 22:56:00 forget exchange Feb 18 22:56:03 you'll live better Feb 18 22:56:10 hehe Feb 18 22:56:19 jasta: I'm glad I don't need Exchange :) Feb 18 22:56:29 The Exchange protocol has been discovered by the Evolution folks, so perhaps I will make it work with Android some day :) Feb 18 22:56:40 I have an enormous amount of ambition in the mobile market hehe Feb 18 22:56:50 jasta: if it's half as bad as the outloook express file format, good luck Feb 18 22:57:02 I once wrote a phython library to extract emails from outlook express storage files Feb 18 22:57:09 romainguy___: I'm sure it is, but all of Microsoft's protocols are. Feb 18 22:57:16 I will never ever get close to a Microsoft format again Feb 18 22:57:48 I wrote a tool to create .lnk files once. Oh boy. Feb 18 22:59:59 hahahahah Feb 18 23:00:22 i remember the days when .lnk concept was visionary Feb 18 23:00:25 in the MS world at least Feb 18 23:04:36 Microsoft is so annoying hehe Feb 18 23:05:46 they have some good stuff though ^^ Feb 18 23:05:51 * romainguy___ is still jealous of WPF Feb 18 23:05:52 ^^ Feb 18 23:06:50 I've just stepped in, I'd just like to show some support for apple in amongst the haters. :) Feb 18 23:07:05 Sorry for catching up on that a bit late Feb 18 23:07:32 I like Apple as well, it's just not for me. I happily recommend their products to others, though. Feb 18 23:07:33 The iphone is a top notch device bar none. Feb 18 23:08:41 I doubt I'll ever be swayed away from primarily running open source code. Feb 18 23:09:19 yeah Feb 18 23:09:28 it's funny, every single line of code I ever wrote was released under an open source/free software license Feb 18 23:09:29 I hope history doesn't turn me into a crotchety weirdo as a result. Feb 18 23:09:38 and yet I don't care about running proprietary software Feb 18 23:09:44 Hiisty: I'm sure you hang in some l33t phone circles where people communicate through amazing UI experiences I as a newb could never imagine, but for my money I would wager that there has never been a device so well formed for the purpose of common mobile communication as the iphone. Feb 18 23:10:08 chomchom, the star trek things are pretty handy Feb 18 23:10:16 although they don't do MMS either Feb 18 23:10:30 romainguy___: I care because it is how I have learned to do anything at all. Feb 18 23:11:27 jasta: me too and that's why I write only open source code, but as a user, I just want the best apps/environments for my need and very often OSS is just not what I want Feb 18 23:11:31 yeah... I just love the feeling of being able to take stuff apart Feb 18 23:11:33 sorry david! Star trek? Feb 18 23:11:49 chomchom, yeah, the communicators Feb 18 23:11:50 I am certain that open source and the associated community is the only way I got away with not going to college, while still enjoying a successful career writing software. Feb 18 23:12:11 ah yeah Feb 18 23:12:13 * davidw 2 Feb 18 23:12:23 a lot of proprietary stuff is rock solid: WinAMP, Visual Basic, PowerBASIC, Opera, etc. to name a few Feb 18 23:12:28 So, I feel indebted, but in a positive way that I wish to give back. Feb 18 23:12:49 jasta: sure, and again that's why I write open source code; but that does not mean to me that I should force myself to use only OSS :) Feb 18 23:12:51 jasta: a lot of people have that same feeling, but they give back total crap so it clutters the FOSS landscape :X Feb 18 23:13:02 (I would be really pained without Photoshop and Lightroom when it comes to photograph :)) Feb 18 23:13:11 <3 lightroom Feb 18 23:13:19 God...don't get me started on the gimp Feb 18 23:13:27 romainguy___: I wouldn't say I force myself. It just happens to be right for me in every case ;) Feb 18 23:13:32 chomchom: I'm not pointing fingers :) Feb 18 23:13:34 there is an oper source effort in need of some guidance Feb 18 23:13:44 jasta: which is nice Feb 18 23:13:58 OS X, for example, is for 8 year old children :) Feb 18 23:14:04 lol thanks :) Feb 18 23:14:05 * jasta runs away screaming Feb 18 23:14:17 I'm just joking. OS X is a fine product for ages 8 - 14. Feb 18 23:14:47 How so jasta? Feb 18 23:14:54 Not so, I'm still just joking. Feb 18 23:14:59 chomchom: he means you don't have to fight X to use a big screen :) Feb 18 23:15:10 my first two weeks at Google I had a Linux box Feb 18 23:15:16 I really wanted to use Linux at work Feb 18 23:15:31 but it insisted on displaying X at 1280x900 on my 30" monitor Feb 18 23:15:46 :) Feb 18 23:15:57