**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 25 10:59:56 2008
Feb 25 15:26:52 <Lede> why is the content of an showalert message right below the title and icon, it looks really messy :/
Feb 25 15:41:56 <zhobbs> Lede: I agree
Feb 25 15:42:12 <zhobbs> should be some divider between title/content
Feb 25 15:42:19 <zhobbs> I just stopped using titles
Feb 25 15:43:52 <Lede> heh
Feb 25 15:45:36 <Lede> didnt think about that
Feb 25 15:46:03 * Lede flips the MUST_HAVE_TITLE bit in his brain to 0
Feb 25 15:48:00 <zhobbs> :)
Feb 25 16:47:50 <romainguy> re
Feb 25 16:48:57 <jasta> morning
Feb 25 16:49:12 <muthu> good night
Feb 25 16:49:30 <zhobbs> good morning
Feb 25 16:49:40 <aksyn> good afternoon
Feb 25 16:49:43 <zhobbs> :)
Feb 25 16:49:53 <aksyn> good 'morro!
Feb 25 16:49:54 <aksyn> :)
Feb 25 16:50:10 <jasta> why did this happen? :)
Feb 25 16:51:02 * romainguy is not sure when he is
Feb 25 16:51:11 <zhobbs> acsia: you were asking the other day about MapView click events...I got them to work by overriding dispatchTouchEvent()
Feb 25 16:51:26 <acsia> a nice
Feb 25 16:51:28 <zhobbs> my schedule has been really messed up
Feb 25 16:51:42 <acsia> I will give it a try soonish
Feb 25 16:51:57 <zhobbs> yeah, allows for interactive overlays :)
Feb 25 16:52:50 <muthu> what's the easiest way to connect to server and download stuff ?
Feb 25 16:53:11 <muthu> http, rest, xmpp, rss ?
Feb 25 16:53:22 <zhobbs> http works pretty easy
Feb 25 16:53:47 <muthu> i have media shows to download
Feb 25 16:54:02 <muthu> my partner designer needs to set it up
Feb 25 16:54:17 <muthu> i was thinking.. probably set up a blog
Feb 25 16:54:23 <muthu> and then download rss
Feb 25 16:55:06 <muthu> so quick server setup.. and the client is ready to go
Feb 25 16:55:06 <jasta> considering that only 2 you mentioned are event application-layer protocols, and that one of them is designed for message exchange, i'd say HTTP would be the obvious winner for content delivery.
Feb 25 16:55:44 <jasta> perhaps you should investigate these things before you just rattle off buzzwords ;)
Feb 25 16:55:56 <muthu> :)
Feb 25 16:55:59 <jasta> even*, not event
Feb 25 16:56:12 <muthu> that's ok
Feb 25 16:56:13 <zhobbs> muthu: http :)
Feb 25 16:56:39 <muthu> zhobbs: agreed
Feb 25 16:56:46 <muthu> you know just thinking lazy
Feb 25 16:56:58 <muthu> rss seems attractive
Feb 25 16:57:09 <zhobbs> but you can't download a video via rss
Feb 25 16:57:13 <jasta> rss isn't a protocol, it's a format, very commonly delivered over http
Feb 25 16:57:24 <zhobbs> you could make your application aware that a video exists somewhere via rss
Feb 25 16:57:29 <muthu> correct
Feb 25 16:58:00 <romainguy> zhobbs: which is basically how podcasts/videocasts work...
Feb 25 16:58:16 <jasta> it's precisely how it works :)
Feb 25 16:58:36 <muthu> ok.. videocasting it is!
Feb 25 16:59:05 <muthu> set up a blog.. connect to rss
Feb 25 16:59:20 <muthu> quick client / server thingamagik
Feb 25 16:59:28 <zhobbs> I would rss the video json over xmpp through http tunnel
Feb 25 16:59:29 <jasta> ugh, you don't connect to rss.
Feb 25 16:59:44 <muthu> jasta: take it easy
Feb 25 16:59:46 <jasta> i am gonna hurt you if you don't cut it out muthu :)
Feb 25 16:59:56 <muthu> :)
Feb 25 16:59:59 <muthu> i know
Feb 25 17:00:14 <zhobbs> don't get jasta started
Feb 25 17:00:27 <muthu> lazy != correct
Feb 25 17:00:31 <muthu> i'm being lazy here
Feb 25 17:00:40 <muthu> aren't we all?
Feb 25 17:00:49 <jasta> oh, and now he's brought in psuedomathemtical gibberish?  he's dead :)
Feb 25 17:01:04 <muthu> he he
Feb 25 17:01:20 <muthu> you all woke up.. that's the point ;)
Feb 25 17:02:43 * jasta wanders off to work
Feb 25 17:03:14 <muthu> why no tab examples? surprising
Feb 25 17:03:46 <muthu> getting the feeling, tabs are discouraged by the androids.. true?
Feb 25 17:03:57 <romainguy> we brought them back in M5
Feb 25 17:04:04 <muthu> yeah i'm using it
Feb 25 17:04:12 <morrildl> romainguy: they never went away, publicly :)
Feb 25 17:04:25 <morrildl> romainguy: they only went away in M4, which was never released
Feb 25 17:04:25 <romainguy> morrildl: they were deprecated :))
Feb 25 17:04:31 <romainguy> (which to me is same as gone :))
Feb 25 17:04:36 <morrildl> hehehehe
Feb 25 17:04:48 <muthu> you guys ok with tabs?
Feb 25 17:04:58 <romainguy> morrildl: I'm getting my revenge today, I'm about to change more APIs :p
Feb 25 17:05:14 <romainguy> muthu: we have nothing against tabs
Feb 25 17:05:25 <muthu> ok great
Feb 25 17:06:02 <morrildl> romainguy: which APIs?
Feb 25 17:06:22 <romainguy> morrildl: adapters
Feb 25 17:06:30 <romainguy> just renaming some methods for consistenc
Feb 25 17:06:32 <romainguy> +y
Feb 25 17:07:00 <zhobbs> just renaming them to keep us on our toes
Feb 25 17:07:09 <romainguy> exactly
Feb 25 17:07:50 <morrildl> zhobbs: it's for your own good, it builds character
Feb 25 17:50:38 <jasta> it just occurred to me that i could test my application with a "real" cell phone internet connection by just tethering the host computer with my cell phone :)
Feb 25 17:50:54 <jasta> wonder why i didnt think of that before
Feb 25 17:58:45 <plusminus> Hey guys, anyone knows how to retrieve the "strenght" of the incoming GPS-Signal (or the Sattellite count) ?
Feb 25 18:18:10 <acsia> yes
Feb 25 18:18:14 <acsia> give me a sec
Feb 25 18:19:35 <acsia> well actually I used the constant for locationProvider
Feb 25 18:19:47 <acsia> AVAILABLE that is or getAccuracy
Feb 25 18:20:02 <acsia> however with m3 I had some problem with AVAILABLE
Feb 25 18:20:32 <zhobbs> accuracy isn't really the same as signal strength
Feb 25 18:20:51 <plusminus> yes I think it is hardcoded
Feb 25 18:20:58 <plusminus> like: "gps --> 10 meters"
Feb 25 18:21:04 <zhobbs> it's defined in the properties file
Feb 25 18:21:10 <zhobbs> for the provider
Feb 25 18:22:22 <zhobbs> accuracy 100
Feb 25 18:22:30 <plusminus> gps o_O
Feb 25 18:22:51 <acsia> well AVAILABLE would mean you have enought satellite surely
Feb 25 18:23:18 <zhobbs> gps doesn't seem done
Feb 25 18:23:27 <plusminus> but I need more than "yes/no"
Feb 25 18:26:07 <acsia> not implemented yet I guess
Feb 25 18:33:12 <morrildl> http://arcanux.org/lambdacats.html
Feb 25 18:34:35 <plusminus> :(
Feb 25 18:36:24 <jasta> hehe, neat.  just did a mobile speed test on my phone (on 3G with good strength), got 377kbit/sec :)
Feb 25 18:37:13 <plusminus> nice
Feb 25 18:39:27 <plusminus> erm how to determine Data-Connection-Strength? (GSM-Signal Strength is easy to determine)
Feb 25 18:40:30 <plusminus> xD there is also a DataStateIntentReceiver^^
Feb 25 18:41:53 <jasta> jesus, looking at other peoples results:
Feb 25 18:42:11 <jasta> 797kbit/sec from Sprint with a PPC6800
Feb 25 18:42:22 <jasta> 385kbit/sec from sprint :\
Feb 25 18:42:27 <jasta> damn sprint is way better than everyone else ;)
Feb 25 18:42:47 <jasta> wow, 1609kbit/sec from a German ISP with a Nokia N95.
Feb 25 18:49:03 <plusminus> Damn, DataStateIntentReceiver also gives just information about CONNECTED / CONNECTION / DISOCNNECTED :(
Feb 25 19:54:24 <acsia> hey
Feb 25 19:54:29 <acsia> have you seen wifi army?
Feb 25 19:54:45 <acsia> well is any developers here?
Feb 25 20:58:04 <davidw> jasonchen, hi - know offhand if it's possible to capture audio while a call is ongoing?  Even just the 'local' (mic) audio would be ok
Feb 25 20:59:50 <jasonchen> davidw: i don't believe that it currently... (checking)
Feb 25 21:00:10 <jasonchen> davidw: err, that it is currently possible
Feb 25 21:01:02 <davidw> ok, thanks
Feb 25 21:02:45 <jasonchen> davidw: just got confirmation that this isn't possible.  TBD if/how it would be available
Feb 25 21:03:39 <davidw> I think there are some legal issues surrounding recording conversations
Feb 25 21:04:37 <davidw> but it would be nice to be able to record at least from the phone's microphone.  Thanks for checking though
Feb 25 21:07:45 <jasonchen> davidw: yw.  i'll ping the engineers responsible for that general area and let them know about your interest
Feb 25 21:09:11 <davidw> cool, thanks.  I have a use case for it, but it's for the contest, for a paying client, so IRC is not the best place to discuss it:-)
Feb 25 21:09:28 <jasonchen> :-)
Feb 25 21:17:22 <f00f-> we want Bluetooth L2CAP support! i guess i should file a defect.
Feb 25 21:21:41 <Stephmw> best way to make them aware of it
Feb 25 21:31:25 <edcba> there is no bluetooth support ?
Feb 25 21:39:17 <jerkface03> lolwat?
Feb 25 21:39:23 <jerkface03> the bluez apis don't support l2cap?
Feb 25 21:44:46 <Stephmw> jerkface03: or it's not been exposed
Feb 25 21:49:06 <f00f-> i don't see them exposed
Feb 25 21:49:11 <f00f-> all i see is RFCOMM
Feb 25 21:50:09 <jerkface03> why do you want to use l2cap? i'm not too sure how unreliable it is, they could have just set it to retry forever on a fail
Feb 25 21:53:04 <f00f-> i want some connectionless support
Feb 25 21:59:48 <jerkface03> i'm not too sure if l2cap is connectionless
Feb 25 22:00:00 <jerkface03> where are you getting your information from?
Feb 25 22:42:02 <f00f-> just picking my own brain :D
Feb 25 22:42:07 <f00f-> you're right, it's not
Feb 25 22:42:14 <f00f-> but it's close
Feb 25 22:42:34 <f00f-> i'd like something like UDP for Bluetooth
Feb 25 22:44:16 <zhobbs> f00f-: what you doing with bluetooth?
Feb 25 22:45:50 <f00f-> well ideally, i'd like to sniff packets off the air, but since that's not possible, i need some sort of lightweight (wrt RFCOMM/SPP) communications
Feb 26 01:29:51 <jasta> romainguy: i'm starting work now on my cursor adapter :)
Feb 26 01:30:01 <romainguy> good luck :)
Feb 26 01:30:07 <jasta> this is going to be tricky to do efficiently i think
Feb 26 01:30:22 <jasta> maybe i'm just being stupid about it
Feb 26 01:37:56 <f00f-> jasta: it doesn't work
Feb 26 01:37:56 <f00f-> i get an illegalstateexception
Feb 26 01:37:56 <f00f-> i do a .setViewBinder(bleh)
Feb 26 01:37:56 <f00f-> and it dies :(
Feb 26 01:39:14 <jasta> great?
Feb 26 02:17:57 <jasta> hmm.
Feb 26 02:18:30 <jasta> romainguy: What is the logic for attempting to re-use views?
Feb 26 02:18:37 <jasta> that is, in getView()
Feb 26 02:20:17 <f00f-> avoid excessive GC through new object creation
Feb 26 02:20:18 <f00f-> i guess
Feb 26 02:20:20 <jasta> since my custom adapter has views of two different types (separators and items), i think i need to intercept getView and decide if convert is of the right view type to try to re-use.  If it not, what are my options?  Just force a newView?
Feb 26 02:20:41 <f00f-> i'm doing a new view now cause i dont know how to restore the old one
Feb 26 02:20:48 <f00f-> but for performance you do want to reuse it
Feb 26 02:21:12 <jasta> romainguy: i know that it is very particular to you that views are re-used correctly, so i am curious to know how this case would be handled optimally.
Feb 26 02:21:15 <romainguy> jasta: check if convertView is != null
Feb 26 02:21:37 <romainguy> and yes, you need to check its type
Feb 26 02:21:45 <romainguy> if it's not the right type, you'll have to create a new one
Feb 26 02:22:00 <romainguy> however, we're working on something that will prevent you from being in that situation
Feb 26 02:22:20 <jasta> ok, good to know
Feb 26 02:25:39 <jasta> romainguy: is there any way i can listen for the layout/measure pass in the adapter or do i also have to extend my ListView?
Feb 26 02:26:01 <jasta> what i want to do is only scan the items that are being displayed on screen to decide which ones should be bound as separators and which ones as items.
Feb 26 02:26:35 <romainguy> I doubt it would work
Feb 26 02:26:41 <jasta> really?
Feb 26 02:26:42 <romainguy> getView/newView/bindView is called during a layout
Feb 26 02:26:51 <romainguy> so basically if getView is called, that means you are in the layout pass
Feb 26 02:27:45 <jasta> right, i was thinking of a different strategy that i now realize won't work for other reasons.
Feb 26 02:28:18 <jasta> i think i'm just going to have to maintain an ever-growing map of item positions to cursor labels...
Feb 26 02:28:52 <jasta> so that wich each call to getView(), i can check the map to see if the item at pos-1 is a different letter, and in that case, inject a separator.
Feb 26 02:29:30 <jasta> but the map will also need to help me map list rows to cursor rows (since they will be displaced by the separators)
Feb 26 02:29:42 <jasta> sorry, i'm mostly just thinking aloud.  no need to respond :)
Feb 26 02:34:10 <jasta> god damnit.  system_server segfaulted.
Feb 26 02:37:52 <jasta> romainguy: is setTag/getTag user-data?  am i safe to take advantage of that?
Feb 26 02:38:03 <romainguy> yes you can use it
Feb 26 02:38:33 <jasta> excellent
Feb 26 02:38:45 <jasta> saves me from having to make another map :)
Feb 26 02:39:35 <romainguy> depends on what y ou plan on doing with it
Feb 26 02:40:40 <jasta> damn :)
Feb 26 02:40:52 <jasta> i was hoping to use it to mark the type of the view
Feb 26 02:41:01 <romainguy> well that will work
Feb 26 02:41:01 <jasta> so i would know the type of the view passed in by convert
Feb 26 02:41:12 <romainguy> but you can simply do an instanceof too
Feb 26 02:42:28 <jasta> well, both are TextView's though.
Feb 26 02:42:37 <romainguy> ah ok
Feb 26 02:42:42 <romainguy> then use setTag
Feb 26 02:53:48 <jasta> god, i dont even know the alphabet.
Feb 26 03:00:43 <jasta> romainguy: what's the recommended way to make a list separator?  satisfying isSelectable() doesn't seem to be enough?
Feb 26 03:00:52 <jasta> do i also setClickable(false) on the view?
Feb 26 04:02:42 <jasta> yay, it works
Feb 26 04:02:42 <jasta> kinda
Feb 26 04:15:54 <jasta> it's so inefficient now ;)
Feb 26 04:38:21 <Dan_U> for purposes of the challenge, does anyone think it would be bad form to discuss business models for our apps in the docs we provide?
Feb 26 04:43:21 <muthu> we should proactively discuss the business model - imho
Feb 26 04:44:29 <muthu> if your application helps sell google services.. google happy :)
Feb 26 04:46:23 <Dan_U> I'm not sure how well it does that, but it does make use of google maps. I'd assume that makes google happy, but I don't know
Feb 26 04:47:18 <Dan_U> I just don't want to find that I've put something in my docs that negatively affects my chances
Feb 26 04:47:37 <Dan_U> and that's about the only possibly questionable thing I could see
Feb 26 04:48:55 <muthu> no got for it dan
Feb 26 04:49:12 <muthu> the more you talk about business model, the more people would listen
Feb 26 04:49:31 <muthu> i personally dont really worry about selling google services
Feb 26 04:49:56 <muthu> if my app uses them fine.. else no big deal
Feb 26 04:50:17 <muthu> i am putting up a website explaining the product
Feb 26 04:50:33 <Dan_U> yeah, I'm doing the same, a website
Feb 26 04:50:48 <Dan_U> I'm thinking the more I explain stuff like business models, the more polished it looks
Feb 26 04:50:55 <muthu> yes
Feb 26 04:51:07 <muthu> how would it make money?
Feb 26 04:51:09 <muthu> very important
Feb 26 04:51:29 <muthu> i think about indirectly hinting how my app would make money
Feb 26 04:51:35 <muthu> not directly spelling out, of course
Feb 26 04:51:43 <Dan_U> well, I discuss the obvious money making model: ads
Feb 26 04:51:49 <muthu> :)
Feb 26 04:52:03 <Dan_U> I'm actually working on 4 apps, and 2 of them have other business models
Feb 26 04:52:14 <Dan_U> well, other in terms of ads OR something else
Feb 26 04:52:14 <muthu> great
Feb 26 04:52:22 <muthu> ads is what google likes
Feb 26 04:52:28 <Dan_U> right
Feb 26 04:52:46 <Dan_U> but, I haven't seen much discussion on how/if they plan to put ads on the phone itself
Feb 26 04:52:58 <Dan_U> which might not matter too much to me. Website ads might be good enough
Feb 26 04:53:03 <muthu> that's not clear to anyone as of now
Feb 26 04:53:07 <muthu> no one knows
Feb 26 04:53:36 <muthu> what do you mean, dan?
Feb 26 04:53:42 <muthu> website ads?
Feb 26 04:54:21 <Dan_U> yeah, I think some of my apps will have a serious website presence to compliment the android app
Feb 26 04:54:27 <Dan_U> so I'm thinking the whole google adwords thing
Feb 26 04:54:31 <muthu> ok
Feb 26 04:54:38 <muthu> i want to stay away from web
Feb 26 04:54:56 <muthu> i'm thinking web must be the backend..
Feb 26 04:55:09 <muthu> the user need not necessarily visit the web
Feb 26 04:55:13 <Dan_U> well, some of my web stuff is backend
Feb 26 04:55:28 <Dan_U> the user wouldn't have to use my website though, other than creating an account and downloading the client package
Feb 26 04:55:39 <Dan_U> but they could, and likely would
Feb 26 04:55:49 <muthu> ok.. keeping the user away from the web and on to the mobile
Feb 26 04:55:59 <muthu> that's the key
Feb 26 04:56:05 <muthu> let him do everything on mobile
Feb 26 04:56:45 <Dan_U> true
Feb 26 04:56:55 <Dan_U> I think theres enough incentive to use the mobile with my apps
Feb 26 04:57:12 <Dan_U> but for the times when someone is charging their phone or want a bigger screen, they'd probably opt for the website
Feb 26 04:59:11 <muthu> looks like an hybrid
Feb 26 04:59:22 <muthu> appealing but am not sure
Feb 26 04:59:27 <Dan_U> yeah
Feb 26 04:59:28 <Dan_U> I think it will be
Feb 26 04:59:39 <muthu> great
Feb 26 04:59:42 <Dan_U> well, I don't think you'd ever want to use any of my apps just via the website
Feb 26 04:59:53 <Dan_U> so mobile usage is expected
Feb 26 05:00:07 <muthu> correct
Feb 26 05:00:14 <muthu> for ex: videocasting / podcasting
Feb 26 05:00:30 <muthu> or plain blogs
Feb 26 05:00:44 <muthu> you use your rss reader wherever you want.. on web, mobile etc.,
Feb 26 05:06:39 <jasta> Dan_U: re your business model approach, i would say it is irrelevant.  If Google is judging your application on the basis of its applicability to their own business model or yours, then they are in violation of the contests contract and official judging rules.
Feb 26 05:07:14 <muthu> jasta: how?
Feb 26 05:08:05 <muthu> who wins is entire upto google
Feb 26 05:08:18 <jasta> It would be a gross abuse of trust for Google to award applications based in any part on their direct ability to profit from it.  This is not expressed in the rules, nor is it implied by the nature of the challenge or even Android itself.
Feb 26 05:09:01 <muthu> i dont think so.. there's no place for trust in laws
Feb 26 05:09:10 <jasta> Google created the challenge and its rules as a means of encouraging their business model, further meddling is unnecessary and abusive.
Feb 26 05:09:36 <Dan_U> if they created it for encouraging their business model, how much more "meddling" could there be?
Feb 26 05:09:54 <Dan_U> are you referring to giving them new ideas for business models?
Feb 26 05:10:03 <jasta> Dan_U: That's my point; the challenge rules and judging criteria does not in any way suggest that applications are judged based on Google's profitability.
Feb 26 05:10:31 <jasta> Besides, Google isn't necessarily going to be judging anything.  They have specified that the OHA members will be responsible for judging, which may or may not include them.
Feb 26 05:10:38 <Dan_U> ok, then it should just be a "doesn't matter" thing
Feb 26 05:10:47 <jasta> Yes, which is what I said.  Irrelevant.
Feb 26 05:11:43 <Dan_U> I'm probably going to specify it in my docs anyway, in case I'm lucky enough to get some VC interest or something.
Feb 26 05:11:55 <Dan_U> which I doubt will happen, but who knows
Feb 26 05:12:22 <muthu> everyone is interested in how your app is going to finally make them money
Feb 26 05:12:26 <muthu> is this not relevant?
Feb 26 05:13:35 <Dan_U> it does seem relevant
Feb 26 05:13:38 <jasta> Your only motivation for doing so would be to solicit attention outside of the challenge itself.  But that is kind of like a waiter bundling a customer's check with a screenplay.  It probably won't help you any.
Feb 26 05:14:46 <jasta> muthu: Is that specified in the challenge rules?  If it were necessary to Google's overall strategy for the challenge, then it would have been included.
Feb 26 05:15:17 <jasta> I suspect, however, Google's overall strategy is to support their business model by simply attracting as many developers and users as they can.  They are, afterall, a marketing company.
Feb 26 05:15:46 <jasta> Therefore, the specific workings of your application are only interesting to them if they are interesting to a larger audience.  And that is clearly specified in the challenge rules.
Feb 26 05:16:00 <muthu> exactly my point
Feb 26 05:16:16 <jasta> The larger audience doesn't give a shit about your business model.
Feb 26 05:16:29 <muthu> that's your business model
Feb 26 05:16:36 <jasta> What?
Feb 26 05:16:50 <muthu> your business model must say how it would be interesting to a larger audience
Feb 26 05:17:10 <muthu> that's what i called indirectly hinting how it would make money
Feb 26 05:17:15 <jasta> That thought is too disjointed for me to follow
Feb 26 05:17:21 <muthu> ha ha
Feb 26 05:17:41 <muthu> it would take a while :)
Feb 26 05:17:44 <jasta> Yes, I find your foolishness laughable as well.
Feb 26 05:18:02 <Dan_U> I need to learn to stop opening cans of worms
Feb 26 05:18:13 <muthu> jasta: are you out of school yet?
Feb 26 05:27:47 <jasta> romainguy: the apidemo Views/List/5. Separators is really messed up.  the selector draws outside the boundary of the selection items
Feb 26 05:27:57 <jasta> and it demonstrates the goofy selectable logic i was referring to
Feb 26 05:28:03 <duey> well
Feb 26 05:28:21 <duey> #gsoc wins the size of channel competition
Feb 26 05:28:29 <jasta> whats #gsoc?
Feb 26 05:28:34 <duey> summer of code
Feb 26 05:28:49 <jasta> college students have more time to idle :)
Feb 26 05:28:54 <duey> true
Feb 26 05:28:56 * duey idles
Feb 26 05:29:24 * jasta digs into shape drawables
Feb 26 05:29:43 <jasta> i want a stylish green gradient separator and i think that a shape should do nicely
Feb 26 05:30:08 <jasta> i wish this stuff was better documented though
Feb 26 05:31:49 <duey> i wish the world was round
Feb 26 05:32:11 <jasta> i've got good news for you
Feb 26 05:32:25 <duey> oh?
Feb 26 05:32:44 <jasta> sure, something about your car insurance? :)
Feb 26 05:33:08 <duey> pitty i don't have a car
Feb 26 05:38:39 <jjt009> YEAAAH
Feb 26 05:38:39 <jjt009> yo
Feb 26 05:39:07 <jasta> hello
Feb 26 05:39:43 <jjt009> jasta: do you know how to convert an address into the name of the business located at the spot referenced by the address?
Feb 26 05:39:59 <jasta> no, sorry.
Feb 26 05:40:03 <jjt009> actually, everyone should feel free to answer the above question
Feb 26 05:40:08 <romainguy___> re
Feb 26 05:40:08 <jjt009> not just jasta
Feb 26 05:40:10 <jasta> haven't looked much into the maps facilities.
Feb 26 05:40:33 <jjt009> know any maps experts that are part of the channel?
Feb 26 05:40:36 <romainguy___> jasta: and it demonstrates the goofy selectable logic i was referring to <, this has been fixed since M5
Feb 26 05:40:45 <romainguy___> jasta: romainguy: the apidemo Views/List/5. Separators is really messed up.  the selector draws outside the boundary of the selection items << this has been fixed since M5
Feb 26 05:40:51 <jasta> romainguy___: cool.
Feb 26 05:40:59 <jjt009> lol
Feb 26 05:41:45 <romainguy___> jasta: see I did not say that it's fixed in the next SDK :)
Feb 26 05:42:06 <jasta> yeah, you really know how to spice it up :)
Feb 26 05:51:01 <jasta> romainguy___: My adapter scales O(n) but the performance is still quite good.  I'm a bit surprised.
Feb 26 05:51:19 <jasta> It even iterates the entire cursor on instantiation and requery.
Feb 26 05:51:41 <jasta> I was hoping to just visually get it right, then go back and implement it well.
Feb 26 05:51:49 <jasta> Oh well...
Feb 26 05:52:19 <duey> better make it exponential for that added bit of fun
Feb 26 05:52:26 <jasta> hehe, sure :)
Feb 26 05:52:44 <romainguy___> jasta: now on a real device...
Feb 26 05:53:14 <duey> it will feel exponential
Feb 26 05:53:40 <duey> i think im going to offload my processing to a webservice
Feb 26 05:53:56 <jasta> romainguy___: I'm not really sure how to work around this.  Android would make it possible if I had a few concessions in the UI.
Feb 26 05:54:10 <jasta> Like doing away with getCount and letting me signal the end of the list.
Feb 26 05:54:11 <romainguy___> like what?
Feb 26 05:54:23 <jasta> since i know that getCount() is just used a sentinel anyway
Feb 26 05:54:59 <jasta> you just keep pushing through layout/measure until either getCount() is reached, or the last item measures off the viewable screen, right?
Feb 26 05:55:54 <romainguy___> more or less yes
Feb 26 05:56:45 <jasta> not that I expect the UI will change here since it is more graceful to impose those restrictions.
Feb 26 05:57:14 <romainguy___> jasta: we rely on getCount() for a bunch of stuff
Feb 26 05:57:18 <romainguy___> most notably scrollbars
Feb 26 05:57:23 <jasta> still, the only alternative while still maintaining the semantics i want would be to pre-index a lot of this stuff in the database.
Feb 26 05:57:30 <romainguy___> jasta: how is getCount() annoying you btw?
Feb 26 05:58:04 <jasta> romainguy___: I decided not to show empty separators, so I don't know the size of the list until I compute it.  Presently since I am not altering the database, that requires a scan through each row.
Feb 26 05:58:34 <romainguy___> well if you choose the complicated way... :)
Feb 26 05:58:47 <jasta> I think it is ultimately better for the user.
Feb 26 05:58:56 <jasta> Plus, I realized something when I started developing ;)
Feb 26 05:59:18 <jasta> the user might have songs which begin with numbers or even symbols.
Feb 26 05:59:34 <romainguy___> the iPhone puts them under the letter "#" :)
Feb 26 06:00:22 <jasta> oh, that's a good idea, but still, it would be strange to have "#" be the first separator always present even if the user doesn't have any non-alpha items.
Feb 26 06:00:50 <jasta> and for users with small music collections, there is the potential for several labels in a row that are empty.  it would look very unusual.
Feb 26 06:02:06 <jasta> ultimately i will probably just optimize this by pre-calculating it in the database.
Feb 26 06:02:43 <jasta> it just sucks because it doesn't fit well with the contentprovider.  maybe i will implement it in a separate database entirely.
Feb 26 06:03:22 <jasta> anyway, i'm happy with it for now.  actually, it's just memory inefficient for scrolling around.  it builds a map of list position to cursor position (yikes, lots of memory)
Feb 26 06:04:22 <romainguy___> jasta: actually the # songs don't need a separator
Feb 26 06:04:31 <romainguy___> if you put them before the separator 'A' you're good to go :)
Feb 26 06:05:43 <jasta> that seems sloppy.  i've never been great with UI :)
Feb 26 06:05:50 <jasta> i create klunky messes, i think :)
Feb 26 06:06:01 <romainguy___> well, yes, you're a developper :))
Feb 26 06:07:03 <jasta> my separators are ugly.  it's a bright green rectangle hehe
Feb 26 06:07:36 <romainguy___> just like my unit tests
Feb 26 06:08:24 <jasta> i feel like i have to use green because its android's normal color scheme
Feb 26 06:08:36 <jasta> but i really want to use a baby blue or a light gray
Feb 26 06:09:51 <romainguy___> IwannaseenicelookingUIs!
Feb 26 06:10:04 * romainguy___ misses spending time in Photoshop designing UIs
Feb 26 06:10:27 <jasta> huh?
Feb 26 06:10:27 <f00f-> hahah dude
Feb 26 06:10:29 <f00f-> who does that
Feb 26 06:10:36 <f00f-> PS gui's
Feb 26 06:10:40 <romainguy___> f00f-: I do
Feb 26 06:10:40 <f00f-> total waste of time, no?
Feb 26 06:10:45 <jasta> i do it too
Feb 26 06:10:49 <romainguy___> f00f-: sure...
Feb 26 06:10:54 <jasta> i actually drew my ADC project's UI on fucking paper
Feb 26 06:10:54 <f00f-> my GUI guy does that, but how do you translate to code?
Feb 26 06:11:14 <jasta> i accidentally came up with this neat translucent purple fade.  it looks awesome.
Feb 26 06:11:17 <duey> ocr it obviously
Feb 26 06:11:18 <f00f-> ah good ole fashioned ink
Feb 26 06:11:22 <jerkface03> so much profanity
Feb 26 06:11:36 <f00f-> loo
Feb 26 06:11:37 <romainguy___> f00f-: ink is used before going to photoshop, to come up with workflow and layouts
Feb 26 06:12:09 <f00f-> yeah i usually rough stuff out on paper as well
Feb 26 06:12:14 <jasta> romain: RGBA or ARGB?  i can't remember
Feb 26 06:12:27 <romainguy___> jasta: in Android we use ARGB
Feb 26 06:12:27 <duey> lol
Feb 26 06:12:28 <f00f-> rgba
Feb 26 06:12:29 <jasta> it must be ARGB, because i don't see how i got a translucent black out of that ;)
Feb 26 06:12:35 <f00f-> really
Feb 26 06:12:37 <duey> i think its rgba
Feb 26 06:12:46 <duey> oh
Feb 26 06:12:47 <duey> lol
Feb 26 06:12:47 <jasta> it definitely seems to be ARGB
Feb 26 06:12:56 <duey> i thought the docs said rgba
Feb 26 06:13:02 <duey> maybe im thinking of bufferedimage
Feb 26 06:13:04 <f00f-> rgba makes more sense
Feb 26 06:13:23 <romainguy___> duey: BufferedImage uses ARGB as well
Feb 26 06:13:27 <romainguy___> f00f-: absolutely not
Feb 26 06:13:37 <jasta> romainguy___: I assume I can control whether or not Android draws separators as well?
Feb 26 06:13:45 <romainguy___> jasta: the dividers? yes
Feb 26 06:13:48 <jasta> in the next SDK of course.
Feb 26 06:13:54 <jasta> really, in the current one?
Feb 26 06:13:57 <romainguy___> sure
Feb 26 06:14:04 <jasta> you're pulling my leg?
Feb 26 06:14:06 <jasta> hehe
Feb 26 06:14:34 <duey> the Bitmap class
Feb 26 06:14:44 <jasta> romainguy___: how?  on a per item basis?
Feb 26 06:14:47 <romainguy___> duey: I believe it's still ARGB
Feb 26 06:14:47 <duey> sec makesure i got the name right
Feb 26 06:14:57 <romainguy___> jasta: it's all or nothing unfortunately
Feb 26 06:15:11 <romainguy___> jasta: but we have a RFE for what you want
Feb 26 06:15:31 <romainguy___> duey: Android's Bitmap use either ARGB 8888, ARGB 4444 or RGB 565
Feb 26 06:15:34 <duey> Can bitmap/canvas store images > 1.3MP
Feb 26 06:15:41 <romainguy___> duey: suer
Feb 26 06:15:42 <romainguy___> sure
Feb 26 06:15:55 <romainguy___> if you have enough memory available on your application's heap
Feb 26 06:16:18 <romainguy___> View's drawing cache bails out if you try to allocate 640x480x4 bytes though
Feb 26 06:16:22 <duey> will I be able to get images > 1.3MP out of cameradevice if the camera on the phone supports more than 1.3MP
Feb 26 06:16:27 <romainguy___> "allocate more than"
Feb 26 06:16:28 <jerkface03> does it matter which mode you use? in the end it'll all get redone to whatever is internally used
Feb 26 06:16:29 <jerkface03> right?
Feb 26 06:16:45 <romainguy___> jerkface03: it certainly does matter
Feb 26 06:16:47 <duey> would not be displaying said bitmap/canvas
Feb 26 06:17:07 <romainguy___> jerkface03: everything will end up in 565 on screen but the format you choose changes lots of thing before you reach the screen
Feb 26 06:17:23 <romainguy___> duey: yes you can allocate more than 1.3MP
Feb 26 06:17:34 <duey> on cameradevice?
Feb 26 06:17:37 <romainguy___> especially since camera pictures don't have an alpha channel
Feb 26 06:17:42 <jasta> hmm, <gradient android:angle.../> is behaving strangely.  romain, are their restrictions on the angle you can supply?
Feb 26 06:18:00 <duey> sec internet is slow
Feb 26 06:18:14 <romainguy___> jasta: I think it snaps to 45 degree
Feb 26 06:18:28 <duey> The CameraDevice class is used to open/release the camera driver, set image parameters and capture a preview frame (320*240 pixels) or a full-resolution image (1280*1024 pixels).
Feb 26 06:18:41 <romainguy___> no idea why since it can definitely draw at an arbitrary angle
Feb 26 06:18:57 <jasta> romainguy___: it throws an exception if you pass anything else :\
Feb 26 06:19:06 <duey> O.o
Feb 26 06:19:06 <romainguy___> hmm weird
Feb 26 06:19:19 <romainguy___> ah  yes
Feb 26 06:19:23 <romainguy___> you're supposed to pass this: http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/graphics/drawable/GradientDrawable.Orientation.html
Feb 26 06:20:27 <romainguy___> GradientDrawable definitely needs a lot of love
Feb 26 06:21:46 <romainguy___> jasta: ultimately we want to get rid of PaintDrawable and GradientDrawable and replace them with http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/graphics/drawable/ShapeDrawable.html
Feb 26 06:22:01 <romainguy___> which is much more flexible but cannot be loaded form XML yet
Feb 26 06:22:31 <jasta> i'm hopeless.  i can't pick a color that looks good to save my life
Feb 26 06:23:39 <duey> default colours!
Feb 26 06:23:52 <jasta> i made my own little widget thing.  i can't use default colors.
Feb 26 06:23:55 <duey> i serously hate application that skin away from the default ui
Feb 26 06:24:03 <duey> applications
Feb 26 06:24:08 <jasta> there is no default color for the thing i have created
Feb 26 06:24:15 <duey> bbl
Feb 26 06:34:51 <f00f-> why would i be getting an IllegalStateException: addView(View, LayoutParams)... it says it's not supported in AdapterView ?
Feb 26 06:36:24 <romainguy___> because it's not supported in adapterview
Feb 26 06:37:04 <f00f-> okay something is throwing an exception in my custom adapter
Feb 26 06:37:20 <marvinalone> so i have an activity that needs to maintain a permanent network connection in the background, and show stuff depending on the network
Feb 26 06:37:35 <marvinalone> i learned that the network connection should be maintained in a service
Feb 26 06:37:37 <romainguy___> f00f-: just don't call addView() on AdapterView and its subclasses
Feb 26 06:37:49 <marvinalone> in that service, it needs to be its own thread, because it might block
Feb 26 06:37:54 <f00f-> hmm ok, let me check it
Feb 26 06:38:30 <marvinalone> so now to show something in the activity after something has happened on the network, i need to send messages
Feb 26 06:38:40 <marvinalone> 1) from the network thread in the service to the main thread in the service
Feb 26 06:39:18 <marvinalone> 2) from the main thread to the activity, throug ha callback, where it pops up in a different thread than the main thread
Feb 26 06:39:29 <marvinalone> and 3) from that different thread into the activity's main thread
Feb 26 06:39:38 <marvinalone> is that going to be fast in any sense of the word?
Feb 26 06:40:22 <marvinalone> if i'm counting right, it involves 2 processes and 4 threads
Feb 26 06:44:54 <marvinalone> i guess that question is too long for irc
Feb 26 07:01:23 <jasta> ahh, finally home
Feb 26 07:02:36 <jasta> marvinalone: Android has heavily optimized IPC and threading, so yes, that will be efficient (provided that your portion is written efficiently as well)
Feb 26 07:05:46 <marvinalone> jasta: hmm, ok, then i'll implement it that way and hope for the best
Feb 26 07:05:59 <marvinalone> in the worst case i learned something, i guess
Feb 26 07:21:08 <f00f-> romainguy___: is simple_list_item1.xml missing from the sdk?
Feb 26 07:21:16 <f00f-> simple_list_item_1.xml
Feb 26 07:21:20 <f00f-> i mean under res/layout
Feb 26 07:21:28 <romainguy___> it's not missing
Feb 26 07:22:21 <f00f-> i don't see it at all in the sdk tree
Feb 26 07:22:32 <romainguy___> because you don't have the source code
Feb 26 07:23:12 <f00f-> ok... is there a way i could get this file?
Feb 26 07:23:25 <romainguy___> I believe we posted its contents on the mailing list a while ago
Feb 26 07:23:33 <f00f-> k let me check
Feb 26 07:33:13 <f00f-> ok i think i'm getting the hang of this cursor adapter stuff
Feb 26 07:33:13 <f00f-> i like
Feb 26 07:33:30 <f00f-> btw, i'm only getting 4 contacts from the Im.Contacts provider
Feb 26 07:33:34 <f00f-> is there a way to request more?
Feb 26 07:41:47 <muthu> what's the best way to play video?
Feb 26 07:41:54 <muthu> MediaPlayer or VideoView?
Feb 26 08:01:00 <f00f-> nice, the new SimpleCursorAdapter simplies everything
Feb 26 08:01:08 <f00f-> no need to extend BaseAdapter anymore
Feb 26 08:53:20 <jasta> f00f-: the viewbinder is a very nice convenience.
Feb 26 08:59:02 <f00f-> :)
Feb 26 09:05:05 <jasta> i wonder if Google fixed that CDATA crap yet.
Feb 26 09:08:29 <f00f-> heh
Feb 26 09:08:35 <f00f-> i'm sure they're aware of it
Feb 26 09:08:51 <f00f-> jasta: do you know how to union 2 cursors content uri's?
Feb 26 09:10:44 <jasta> yes, you don't.
Feb 26 09:11:20 <jasta> content URIs are designed to completely abstract SQL query logic.
Feb 26 09:11:21 <f00f-> all i want is (jid & presence)
Feb 26 09:11:34 <f00f-> so how do i combine two of them
Feb 26 09:11:45 <f00f-> a union, essentially
Feb 26 09:11:48 <jasta> are you referring to a union or a join?
Feb 26 09:11:53 <f00f-> join
Feb 26 09:11:53 <f00f-> sorry
Feb 26 09:12:06 <f00f-> too much math terminology heh
Feb 26 09:12:28 <jasta> unless a content uri exists that joins them together, you don't.  you would have to manage two separate cursors otherwise.
Feb 26 09:12:39 <f00f-> okay
Feb 26 09:12:42 <f00f-> then this sucks
Feb 26 09:13:07 <f00f-> Im.* is totally crappy
Feb 26 09:13:15 <f00f-> so to get a user's presence i need to use 2 cursors
Feb 26 09:13:23 <f00f-> one to get the list of JIDs
Feb 26 09:13:23 <jasta> perhaps.
Feb 26 09:13:27 <f00f-> another one to get their presence
Feb 26 09:14:12 <jasta> is that really so bad?
Feb 26 09:14:52 <f00f-> well it's more stuff to figure out
Feb 26 09:14:59 <jasta> what's Im.* btw?
Feb 26 09:15:00 <f00f-> i need to do this in a service now
Feb 26 09:15:06 <f00f-> the google talk service..
Feb 26 09:15:33 <f00f-> is there a way i can get notified when a cursor's data source becomes dirty?
Feb 26 09:15:36 <jasta> what package?  i don't know what you're referring to.
Feb 26 09:15:50 <jasta> f00f-: Yes, by registering the appropriate observer.
Feb 26 09:17:36 <f00f-> android.provider.Im
Feb 26 09:18:03 <f00f-> ok so the observer to a contentresolver
Feb 26 09:18:57 <jasta> f00f-: where's the documentation for android.provider.Im?  I must be blind
Feb 26 09:19:11 <f00f-> it's probably non-existent
Feb 26 09:19:17 <f00f-> i'm basing all this stuff from sample code
Feb 26 09:19:17 <jasta> then you shouldn't be using it.
Feb 26 09:19:30 <f00f-> then i should just give up now
Feb 26 09:19:36 <f00f-> it's undocumented
Feb 26 09:19:38 <jasta> yes, possibly.
Feb 26 09:19:46 <f00f-> how else is one supposed to use XMPP functionality?
Feb 26 09:19:57 <jasta> undocumented parts of Android are going to be nothing but trouble to implement, and will probably change substantially in future releases.
Feb 26 09:20:12 <jasta> f00f-: there is a GTalk service that is quite easy to work with.
Feb 26 09:20:21 <f00f-> well i dont care about that, i am submitting my app targeted for a particular version of the SDK anyway
Feb 26 09:20:29 <f00f-> i know i'm working with it
Feb 26 09:20:47 <f00f-> read up on it
Feb 26 09:21:03 <f00f-> you need to use Im.* to get roster list, presence, etc.
Feb 26 09:21:37 <jasta> f00f-: Uhm, you do?
Feb 26 09:22:25 <jasta> I doubt that very much, just looking at the documentation for the GTalk service.
Feb 26 09:23:51 <f00f-> can you telll me how you got to retreive a roster list with presence? m i see no other way of doing it...
Feb 26 09:23:59 <jasta> it seems quite obvious to me that to, for example, get the roster list you'd call addRemoteRosterListener() and requestRoster() on a IGTalkSession instance.
Feb 26 09:24:10 <f00f-> and requesRoster() is asynchronous
Feb 26 09:24:18 <f00f-> it wont return anything...
Feb 26 09:24:34 <f00f-> it'll merely request it :)
Feb 26 09:24:41 <f00f-> so then it comes into your listener
Feb 26 09:24:56 <f00f-> where you query the CONTENT_URI for the service
Feb 26 09:25:02 <f00f-> com.google.whatever
Feb 26 09:25:15 <jasta> Well, you seem to have looked at this enough.  I will only caution you that if you touch an undocumented part of Android, you will get burned.
Feb 26 09:25:16 <f00f-> i think it ends up being content://im/contacts or something
Feb 26 09:25:24 <jasta> And it will be very difficult to understand.
Feb 26 09:25:40 <f00f-> granted, i hope romainguy___ knows a better way to do it
Feb 26 09:25:47 <jasta> If Android doesn't currently support what you need, your best option would be to wait.
Feb 26 09:25:59 <jasta> romainguy works on the UI, nothing else.
Feb 26 09:26:00 <f00f-> they do support it, they say it in their docs
Feb 26 09:26:12 <f00f-> who works on the important back-end stuff?
Feb 26 09:26:23 <jasta> f00f-: It doesn't matter if they support it, if the interface you're supposed to use is undocumented it means they are discouraging you from using it.
Feb 26 09:26:39 <jasta> f00f-: Probably a large number of people.  Nobody that is in here that I know of.
Feb 26 09:27:00 <f00f-> there's nothing i can do about that then
Feb 26 09:27:07 <f00f-> as i said, i'm writing my app for one version of an sdk
Feb 26 09:27:13 <f00f-> that's all the ADC requires
Feb 26 09:27:14 <jasta> Yes, agreed.  So stop trying to do something when you can do nothing :)
Feb 26 09:27:19 <f00f-> so not really a problem
Feb 26 09:27:39 <jasta> Well, good luck wasting your time.
Feb 26 09:28:03 <f00f-> lol
Feb 26 09:28:14 <f00f-> android platform without gtalk/xmpp makes it entirely worthless
Feb 26 09:28:23 <jasta> I'm sorry to say it, but you will spend a lot of time trying to work with something that is not intended for use.
Feb 26 09:28:43 <jasta> f00f-: It is an entirely worthless platform right now, don't you know that?
Feb 26 09:28:57 <f00f-> seeing how much they're pushing it and to offset things like SMS
Feb 26 09:29:04 <jasta> If something isn't done yet, there's nothing you can do about that.
Feb 26 09:29:19 <jasta> I don't understand how that is not obvious to you.
Feb 26 09:29:32 <jasta> Google clearly intended it that way, else they would have released the source code already.
Feb 26 09:30:47 <f00f-> well, don't judge a platform by its current limitations
Feb 26 09:30:50 <f00f-> this argument is irrelevant
Feb 26 09:30:54 <jasta> That said, any code that already exists, documented or not, can be used to whatever degree of functionality it offers.  It has been speculated, and confirmed, that any Android functionality not documented is either horribly broken, soon to be deprecated, or is in need of improvements.
Feb 26 09:31:00 <f00f-> i just want to find out how to do it, in its current bastardized form
Feb 26 09:31:27 <jasta> f00f-: Then get out a decompiler, because that's the only thing that will help you.
Feb 26 09:32:01 <f00f-> best thing i've heard all day
Feb 26 09:32:19 <jasta> Except that what will you do if you find that major functionality you need is missing?
Feb 26 09:32:38 <f00f-> trust me, it's not missing
Feb 26 09:32:41 <jasta> And for that matter, why would you be so bold as to complain that something "sucks" when it isn't even recommended that you use it!
Feb 26 09:32:52 <f00f-> who says it'snot recommended?
Feb 26 09:32:54 <f00f-> lol dude
Feb 26 09:32:56 <f00f-> get your facts straight
Feb 26 09:33:02 <f00f-> look at the big picture oh GTalk on Android
Feb 26 09:33:08 <f00f-> you think they would really leave it out?
Feb 26 09:33:17 <jasta> As I said before, it has been speculated and confirmed that any undocumented portions of Android are not intended to be used at present.
Feb 26 09:33:18 <f00f-> come on, get your head out of the sand
Feb 26 09:34:13 <jasta> f00f-: No, I am telling you that literally ANYTHING that is not documented is not subject to use in its current form.  It doesn't matter what Android's long term plans are.
Feb 26 09:35:06 <jasta> I'm trying to save you the hassle of utilizing a system that is probably terribly designed or incomplete.
Feb 26 09:35:15 <jasta> And worse yet, not documented.
Feb 26 09:35:24 <jasta> It's just a nightmare, why bother?
Feb 26 09:36:11 <jasta> This is precisely the reason that Android split the ADC into two separate parts.  You are welcome to wait and participate when a larger portion of your requirements are actually implemented in Android.
Feb 26 09:36:45 <jasta> Many people, for example, need Bluetooth support for their project ideas but they're totally hosed.
Feb 26 09:37:02 <f00f-> oh do i really need to quote now...
Feb 26 09:37:41 <jasta> quote what?  My comments to you?
Feb 26 09:40:47 <f00f-> fact is, gtalk is documented
Feb 26 09:40:52 <f00f-> that's all that matters to me
Feb 26 09:41:29 <f00f-> i don't know about you, but i'm in this for the challenge, as long as i get it working with ONE VERSION of the sdk, i have zero worries.
Feb 26 09:41:40 <f00f-> thanks for your concerns/comments.
Feb 26 09:42:12 <jasta> Suit yourself.  You have been warned.
Feb 26 09:42:16 <muthu> f00f: google seems to be discouraging people working on xmpp/gtalk
Feb 26 09:44:37 <jasta> muthu: Not necessarily, that's just a major area of work right now, so a lot of things are changing inside of Google.
Feb 26 09:45:07 <jasta> I'm certain that the current API we have now has already changed.  Loads of stuff seems kludged together without being finished.
Feb 26 09:45:19 <jasta> which is fine, it just means they're not done yet.
Feb 26 09:45:38 <muthu> jasta: probably
Feb 26 09:45:46 <jasta> Too many folks are just concentrating on the prize money and totally ignoring the reality of how the platform is developing.
Feb 26 09:46:00 <jasta> Which is unfortunate for them, because they're wasting a lot of time producing an app that won't work well :)
Feb 26 09:46:24 <muthu> jasta: do you think google is looking at a fully working app?
Feb 26 09:46:36 <muthu> i mean for the challenge
Feb 26 09:46:59 <muthu> if the idea is good, may be they like it
Feb 26 09:47:08 <muthu> and don't care if its not fully working
Feb 26 09:47:13 <jasta> muthu: That depends how you mean.  I think Google is expecting an app they can drop onto a real handset and have it perform a meaningful function, and look nice doing it.
Feb 26 09:47:23 <jasta> Especially for the grand prize in June or whenever.
Feb 26 09:47:34 <muthu> oh.. correct
Feb 26 09:47:39 <muthu> may be for the grand prize
Feb 26 09:47:39 <jasta> Google is not shelling out cash for ideas, I promise you that.
Feb 26 09:47:46 <muthu> true
Feb 26 09:47:53 <muthu> ideas are cheap anyways :)
Feb 26 09:48:40 <jasta> That said, Google was smart to split the ADC into two parts.
Feb 26 09:48:59 <muthu> how so?
Feb 26 09:49:10 <jasta> One for early adopters, who are willing to accept the limitations of the developing platform, and another for pragmatic folks who want a solid, well-tested platform on which to launch their ideas.
Feb 26 09:49:44 <jasta> Things like lacking Bluetooth, camera emulation, crude GPS support, half-assed implementations of GTalk, etc...
Feb 26 09:49:55 <muthu> interesting.. so may be they'll go easy on the early adopters
Feb 26 09:50:30 <muthu> its a fine line.. i agree
Feb 26 09:50:35 <jasta> I doubt it.  You gotta think about how many people are thinking just like f00f- here.  They have $ in their eyes and are just trying to slop some polished app together to win money.
Feb 26 09:50:48 <jasta> Many of those apps will probably be quite good, and so there will be stiff competition I think.
Feb 26 09:50:49 <edcba> lol
Feb 26 09:50:59 <jasta> With competition means that all applications will get judged harshly :)
Feb 26 09:51:24 <edcba> but maybe there will be sufficient prizes :)
Feb 26 09:51:40 <muthu> 50 i guess
Feb 26 09:51:40 <jasta> 50 qualifying prizes is a lot, I agree.
Feb 26 09:51:52 <muthu> 1 for each state
Feb 26 09:51:57 <jasta> But still, there will be thousands of submissions, I'm sure.
Feb 26 09:52:13 <muthu> yes.. there'll be a lot of submissions
Feb 26 09:52:14 <jasta> And a lot of them will try very hard to seem worth $25K (or more).
Feb 26 09:53:04 <muthu> to win 25k you need to show atleast 100 times potential
Feb 26 09:53:26 <muthu> may be 10 times
Feb 26 09:53:40 <muthu> 25k * 100 = $$$$
Feb 26 09:53:49 <jasta> I wouldn't bother trying to quantify it like that.  Google will certainly award the qualifying prize to projects that both demonstrate a sound concept and the good sense to implement it well.
Feb 26 09:54:17 <muthu> jasta: what's the reason for your dislike of $$ :)
Feb 26 09:54:39 <jasta> muthu: I don't dislike money, I'm just not an idiot.
Feb 26 09:54:50 <muthu> fair enough
Feb 26 09:55:06 <jasta> Lots of folks are interpretting this channel very narrowly.  They just see the "chance" to win money and think somehow that they are entitled to it.
Feb 26 09:55:29 <muthu> that's life
Feb 26 09:55:50 <jasta> I intend to work very hard and produce an application that I personally have wanted, and that could be accessible to a large audience of users.  If Google agrees, they will compensate me.
Feb 26 09:55:56 <jasta> If not, I don't need their approval :)
Feb 26 09:56:15 <muthu> correct
Feb 26 09:56:36 <muthu> lot of failures in terms of challenge.. might make it big later
Feb 26 09:56:41 <jasta> I'm being practical about it.
Feb 26 09:58:51 <jasta> muthu: A lot of people aren't appreciating the scope of what Google is trying to do here.
Feb 26 09:59:16 <jasta> I think I get it, but maybe not ;)
Feb 26 10:00:02 <jasta> At any rate, I'm having fun with my project.  After the qualifying prizes are announced, I will be releasing my project under the GPL and continuing development regardless.
Feb 26 10:00:27 <jasta> I actually started to write a version of my app for Windows Mobile but quit because development on that platform is absolutely terrible.
Feb 26 10:01:13 <muthu> agree.. android is really fun to work with
Feb 26 10:01:22 <jasta> Yes, it's an exceptionally well designed platform.
Feb 26 10:01:50 <muthu> but the truth is nokia, windows, etc., are the majority
Feb 26 10:02:07 <jasta> Windows Mobile is hardly the majority.
Feb 26 10:02:18 <jasta> Windows Mobile runs on a relatively small set of handsets, and nearly everyone that has one hates it.
Feb 26 10:02:25 <muthu> true
Feb 26 10:02:42 <muthu> symbian, blackberry, palmos
Feb 26 10:02:43 <jasta> WM is a joke.  If Microsoft can't see that, Google will be happy to show them with Android.
Feb 26 10:02:54 <muthu> nokia is the big market
Feb 26 10:03:02 <jasta> PalmOS is basically defunct.  Blackberry, Nokia, and Symbian are the big competitors.
Feb 26 10:03:11 <muthu> if they adopt.. then android has a great chance
Feb 26 10:03:17 <jasta> Oh, and the elephant in the room :)
Feb 26 10:03:40 <jasta> Android doesn't stand a chance if it can win over at least a significant portion of iPhone users.
Feb 26 10:03:47 <jasta> can't*
Feb 26 10:03:49 <muthu> yeah iphone!
Feb 26 10:04:00 <muthu> i wonder how their sdk is?
Feb 26 10:04:12 <jasta> It's currently unreleased, so who knows.
Feb 26 10:04:18 <jasta> I'm sure it's terrible, though.
Feb 26 10:04:23 <muthu> why?
Feb 26 10:04:25 <jasta> Apple fails to recognize the beauty of software design ;)
Feb 26 10:04:56 <muthu> they come with great products though
Feb 26 10:05:00 <jasta> They focus on silly things like practical, intuitive products ;)
Feb 26 10:05:18 <muthu> yeah they do :O)
Feb 26 10:05:48 <jasta> it's 2am, i need to sleep.
Feb 26 10:05:52 <jasta> work in the morning is gonna kill me :(
Feb 26 10:06:16 <muthu> work in android
Feb 26 10:06:24 <jasta> no, i have a job
Feb 26 10:06:38 <muthu> where you work?
Feb 26 10:06:57 <muthu> you in australia?
Feb 26 10:06:59 <jasta> nowhere special, i just write custom business software.
Feb 26 10:07:07 <jasta> no, if i was in autralia it would be morning.
Feb 26 10:07:27 <jasta> it would be afternoon, actually
Feb 26 10:07:38 <muthu> it should be latenight
Feb 26 10:07:58 <muthu> 3:40pm in india
Feb 26 10:08:20 <jasta> i think it's like 7pm now that i think about it?
Feb 26 10:08:39 <jasta> still, who goes to bed at 7pm?
Feb 26 10:08:45 <muthu> right
Feb 26 10:08:50 <jasta> it's 2am in PST.
Feb 26 10:09:00 <muthu> yay guessed it
Feb 26 10:09:11 <muthu> good night then
Feb 26 10:09:29 <muthu> my android partner is also sleepless
Feb 26 10:09:34 <muthu> in SF
Feb 26 10:10:39 <muthu> android challenge is keeping a lot of folks excited and sleepless :-$
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Feb 26 10:59:56 2008