**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Mar 04 10:59:57 2008 Mar 04 12:25:59 ok, this is crazy... yesterday it was 15C out, today it's snowing Mar 04 13:17:25 oh man.. it must be the zoomslider Mar 04 15:56:24 hello Mar 04 16:06:42 bye ;) Mar 04 16:16:12 hmm Mar 04 16:16:16 i'm conflicted this morning Mar 04 16:16:30 on one hand, i have used up all my sick time until March Mar 04 16:16:33 err end of March Mar 04 16:16:46 on the other hand, Steven's Pass got 10" of new snow overnight. Mar 04 16:17:03 * zhobbs is jealous... Mar 04 16:17:37 Florida is nice, but I wish there was snowboarding Mar 04 16:18:46 it's snowing here too... Mar 04 16:21:02 it's raining here Mar 04 16:25:04 its not supposed to snow the rest of the day, so going after work is kind of a crappy plan Mar 04 16:52:48 hey romain Mar 04 16:55:35 yo Mar 04 17:01:30 i so want to ditch work and go boarding :( Mar 04 17:01:45 do it Mar 04 17:01:55 not like you're going to do anything at work right? Mar 04 17:02:00 my rationale is starting to move into the leap year argument Mar 04 17:02:08 i just worked feb 29th for free, so they owe me, right? Mar 04 17:02:24 hehe, interesting argument Mar 04 17:03:17 what will you remember most in 10 years? Mar 04 17:03:44 depends, did i get fired for taking too many sick days? beacuse i'd probably remember that more. Mar 04 17:03:50 yep Mar 04 17:04:07 can't figure out that one for you:-) Mar 04 17:04:39 i just wish the weather would cooperate and snow today as well. then i'd dodge work at 3 or 3:30 and get some refreshed tracks Mar 04 17:07:11 on another note, i don't understand the new RemoteCallbackList utility Mar 04 17:07:23 what is it doing different than us just maintaining our own list? Mar 04 17:07:46 that's how i had done it before m5 and it still seems to work fine, but i suspect that there is some magic in there Mar 04 17:16:02 and i suspect that because i tried decompiling it and there is stuff in there i don't understand ;) Mar 04 17:16:28 seems to be attempting thread-safety, which i wonder about. Mar 04 17:20:42 or maybe not, i don't know. i'll look later. Mar 04 17:54:13 Hey guys Mar 04 17:54:23 how to browse the /data folder using code. Mar 04 17:54:35 One needs administrator-privileges to do so right? Mar 04 17:54:57 or at least "more rights" to see the contents of /data Mar 04 17:57:26 plusminus_: yeah, probably need higher permissions Mar 04 17:57:55 if you install the apk into /system/app then it will run at a higher level Mar 04 18:02:56 didn't know that that is possible, thx Mar 04 18:07:34 well, haven't tried it with M5, but worked with M3 Mar 04 19:19:11 Cryptonimicon is, I think, one of the coolest books I've ever read Mar 04 19:20:18 hehe Mar 04 19:20:21 kind of random Mar 04 19:28:01 1168 pages Mar 04 19:28:08 pretty intense Mar 04 19:29:24 good evening fellow Androids Mar 04 19:29:32 howdy Mar 04 19:29:57 davidw: sounds like a good book though, might have to check it out Mar 04 19:30:14 Zer0Her0, so am I, so it's a good fit. Mar 04 19:30:19 it's weird, I never managed to like Neal Stephenson's book Mar 04 19:30:31 I read Cryptonomicon and Quicksilver and found them boring Mar 04 19:30:32 yea reminds me i still need to finish the baroque cycle or whatever that series was called Mar 04 19:30:32 zhobbs, I'm rereading it, which I rarely do... Mar 04 19:30:59 I would save the baroque cycle until after you've determined whether you like his writing or not Mar 04 19:31:14 if you don't, it would be a colossal waste of time Mar 04 19:31:21 I don't read a lot though, long and full of details is kinda scary Mar 04 19:31:39 davidw: not necessarily a waste of time Mar 04 19:31:41 ah... my problem is that short books last hours Mar 04 19:31:55 oh i'm already 500 pages into quicksilver Mar 04 19:31:59 romainguy, well, if it's not enjoyable, it's a *looong* read Mar 04 19:32:01 just got way busy Mar 04 19:32:10 davidw: I know, I didn't enjoy it :) Mar 04 19:32:46 the baroque cycle doesn't even pick up until the second huge, long book:-) Mar 04 19:33:18 Since I've just entered the room I may be completely off topic, But I just read "the tipping point" by malcolm gladwell. Nice and easy read. Mar 04 19:34:32 I was recommended it from a management perspective but its really just a nice sociological break down Mar 04 19:35:05 sounds motivational... Mar 04 19:35:35 sounds interesting though Mar 04 19:35:56 most of gladwell's stuff is "a nice and easy read" because he strings together a ton of anecdotes to flesh out his actual point Mar 04 19:36:16 actually - most business books are like that, which is why I put together www.squeezedbooks.com Mar 04 19:36:52 yeah it was certainly an easy read Mar 04 19:37:11 hello Mar 04 19:37:20 when's the deadline Mar 04 19:37:29 april 14 Mar 04 19:37:29 yesterday Mar 04 19:37:32 I always find you read these management books and you come away with one thing Mar 04 19:37:44 chomchom: why did i waste time reading this? Mar 04 19:37:46 ;) Mar 04 19:37:54 thanks Mar 04 19:38:02 The thing I came away with from that book was that sesame street rocked Mar 04 19:38:09 Zer0Her0, not entirely true. A lot of them have good points... it's just that they could be summed up in about 10 pages Mar 04 19:39:06 davidW: squeezedbooks.com is a nice idea Mar 04 19:39:08 i guess Mar 04 19:39:21 you can't learn management from books, lol Mar 04 19:39:38 most of them always come across as common sense about human nature, modern society, etc. Mar 04 19:40:05 There is a lot of valuable knowledge in business books, and you would be somewhat pig headed not to think you can learn from others experience. Mar 04 19:40:15 Generally it is true they waffle on though Mar 04 19:40:58 davidw: just FYI there is horizontal scrolling on that site if your browser isn't maximized :) Mar 04 19:41:52 perhaps i'm just surrounded by enough business people that i just look to those that hold higher positions around me and see how they fail/succeed. Mar 04 19:42:07 even look at people on my level Mar 04 19:43:26 zhobbs, hrm... Mar 04 19:45:12 http://www.amazon.com/review/R6J4ERKKP2AF2/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm Mar 04 19:51:15 I love it when these guys 'hack' a wiki... Mar 04 19:52:03 heh Mar 04 20:09:14 http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/03/announcing-apps-for-android.html Mar 04 20:11:25 that was last hour's news Mar 04 20:11:43 I know I'm slow Mar 04 20:33:56 hi Mar 04 20:34:09 you guys think it would be possbile to run android on the iphone? Mar 04 20:41:05 macosxgeek: not yet, the source isn't out yet Mar 04 20:44:10 and the iphone bootloader neither :) Mar 04 20:44:16 but it is ready Mar 04 20:44:53 well, forget android...first step is to get linux on the iPhone Mar 04 20:46:28 once linux works on there then when the source for android is released it shouldn't be too hard Mar 04 20:49:02 yeah right Mar 04 20:49:33 so linux on ARM Mar 04 21:02:39 here is something http://code.google.com/p/iphone-linux/ Mar 04 21:06:58 regarding to m5-rc15: "The update doesn't change any of the Android APIs or introduce any new ones." Mar 04 21:07:41 so nothing changed except the one image-handling bug? Mar 04 21:07:56 guess so...kinda strange Mar 04 21:08:29 I downloaded faster than i can unzip... strange world ^^ Mar 04 21:09:56 I'd love to see some bugs fixed :( Mar 04 21:12:01 but anyway nice to see fast cycles :) Mar 04 21:15:02 I agree... I make a point of watching lots of bike racing :-> Mar 04 21:15:51 nicely done Mar 04 21:16:15 :) Mar 04 21:38:27 textview doesnt support html? Mar 04 21:38:40 kurzum: no, supports and though Mar 04 21:39:01 kurzum: but must be a charsequence, can't be in a string Mar 04 21:39:25 aah i see, because isnt recognized either Mar 04 21:39:41 thx Mar 04 22:14:42 does anyone else keep on getting a null pointer exception on gtalk? Mar 04 22:15:10 or when trying to start browser or map? Mar 04 22:15:26 I've just upgraded to m5-rc15 from m3-rc37a Mar 04 22:19:05 did you run emulator -wipe-data like the instructions say? Mar 04 22:21:04 evidently not, thanks :) Mar 04 22:25:16 ah that's useful Mar 04 22:25:36 you can go back to a previous version of the sdk with that as well? Mar 04 22:26:07 yes. Mar 04 22:26:54 cool :) Mar 04 22:28:27 what's the opinion of the new skin? Mar 04 22:29:08 I'm mixed...looks so so, but I think it'll be much more usable for touchscreen Mar 04 22:29:27 yeah I agree Mar 04 22:30:10 it isn't their final design. Mar 04 22:33:12 besides, from what I've heard it can be skinned by whoever wants to change it :) Mar 04 22:33:26 kind of. Mar 04 22:33:28 not really. Mar 04 22:33:38 where'd you hear that? Mar 04 22:34:00 hopefully you will be able to easily create a new default theme Mar 04 22:36:35 I'm sure I heard them say you could change the home page when I was at the google hack in london before xmas Mar 04 22:36:50 yeah, you can override the home screen Mar 04 22:37:14 ok, so not really changing the skin Mar 04 22:37:45 it'll happen eventually Mar 04 22:49:34 What do americans like more, tabular or written out CVs ? Mar 04 23:13:29 neither Mar 04 23:13:37 we don't know how to read CV's Mar 04 23:13:44 but i guess tabular Mar 04 23:13:52 since it'd be more like a resume Mar 04 23:14:02 which itself is a bulleted list Mar 04 23:19:21 thanks resume=tabular, CV=fulltext :) Mar 04 23:20:31 more like =~ :) Mar 04 23:20:41 but i mean don't make it
style Mar 04 23:20:45 just tabular-looking Mar 04 23:22:43 plusminus: if you are looking for an american job I would recommend one and a half pages of A4, well laid out with job headings and dates, underneath each of them have bullet points of your skills and responsibilities achieved from the position. I would also recommend fleshing out your linked in profile and maybe even filling out a profile on some other sites like visualcv.com Mar 04 23:41:30 we don't use A4 Mar 04 23:41:32 we use letter size Mar 04 23:41:52 make sure you do NOT send A4 Mar 04 23:42:02 even a PDF you make shouldn't be A4 Mar 04 23:42:12 really? Is that a British thing? Mar 04 23:42:28 no just a stupid american thing since we don't follow international standards :) Mar 04 23:42:34 another mysterious measurement in the US :)) Mar 04 23:43:17 Thats surprising and challenging since Letter size is tiny. Mar 04 23:43:32 ? Mar 04 23:43:39 slightly wider and shorter than A4 :) Mar 04 23:43:46 it's a fatter version :D Mar 04 23:44:17 and by letter i do NOT mean the size of an envelope Mar 04 23:45:11 In Britain it's taken as a given al CVs are in A4. Is the american size A5? Or even a standard size? Mar 04 23:45:36 chomchom: it's called letter size Mar 04 23:45:38 and it's close to A4 Mar 04 23:46:40 standard paper size here is Letter Mar 04 23:46:47 most printers accept both, but not everyone has A4 paper Mar 04 23:47:04 i should say 'no one' Mar 04 23:47:24 crazy guys Mar 04 23:47:52 tell me about it Mar 04 23:48:01 actually i like Letter over A4 Mar 04 23:48:02 we have Legal Mar 04 23:48:05 which is short and skinny Mar 04 23:48:12 probably proprtional to A4 family of page sizes Mar 04 23:48:22 generally used by legal and financial community Mar 04 23:48:42 only place i've come in contact with is in contracts and maybe bank agreements Mar 04 23:49:02 bank statements, however, are in Letter, from what i remember Mar 04 23:49:05 i don't get them anymore Mar 04 23:52:00 Completely off topic (but no more than international paper sizes), I would just like to recommend inner ear head phones. Today because of the horrendous activity in my office I was driven to go out and buy some headphones. The inner ear phones are scarily effective at shielding outside noise. It's surprising how much bass you get out of them. Mar 04 23:53:27 chomchom: yep :) Mar 04 23:53:45 but they are also annoying to wear over long periods of time Mar 05 00:01:56 hmm im wondering, is there a way to set the cursor position to be after the text in an EditText? Mar 05 00:03:47 aapt package seems to fail if there is an android:icon that doesn't actually have a file Mar 05 00:09:29 it fails silently though Mar 05 00:10:23 * jasta has partially reverse engineering the Android binary XML format. Mar 05 00:10:35 engineered* Mar 05 00:11:04 haxor Mar 05 00:11:10 i thought someone has already done it Mar 05 00:11:15 have they? Mar 05 00:11:18 binary xml -- an oxymoron Mar 05 00:11:23 yeah Mar 05 00:11:31 someone pasted the site here yesterday Mar 05 00:11:31 duey: Where? Mar 05 00:11:36 That wasn't reverse engineered Mar 05 00:11:37 I just opted for the hack and generate fake ones then extract them Mar 05 00:12:09 ohok Mar 05 00:12:11 jasta: what exactly is the point of you reverse engineering opensource software? Mar 05 00:12:28 jerkface03: Because it isn't open source? Mar 05 00:12:30 it's not open source as of right now? Mar 05 00:12:51 it will be - but it's not, yet. Mar 05 00:13:11 It isn't open source, and it won't be open source by teh time the first round of the ADC has ended. Mar 05 00:13:20 So, there is a very important reason to reverse engineer it ;) Mar 05 00:13:46 plus, so far it has only taken me an hour and a half to figure out the string table and header stuff Mar 05 00:14:34 why dont you just decompile the source Mar 05 00:14:41 oh i guess its devoracked Mar 05 00:14:42 duey: Because the XML parser is written in C. Mar 05 00:14:53 right Mar 05 00:15:00 So decompiling the XML parser would be a nightmarish trek through ASM. Mar 05 00:15:10 i thought it would be java Mar 05 00:15:11 Much more work than just guessing at it. Mar 05 00:15:20 C++ it looks like, actually Mar 05 00:15:22 duey: I thought so too, until I saw that it is C. Mar 05 00:15:30 although I'm not positive Mar 05 00:15:35 right Mar 05 00:15:41 C++? I sort of doubt that, but I haven't looked. Mar 05 00:15:48 why not Mar 05 00:15:51 c++ > c!!! :D Mar 05 00:15:52 * duey runsw Mar 05 00:16:03 C++ > C evaluates to false in both C and C++. Mar 05 00:16:04 ;) Mar 05 00:16:18 hahaha Mar 05 00:16:20 links to libstdc++ Mar 05 00:16:38 davidw: That might not mean that it is all in C. Mar 05 00:16:45 the givaway though: has lots of symbols like this: _ZTVN7android18BufferedTextOutputE Mar 05 00:16:54 Oh yeah, that's obvious ;) Mar 05 00:17:05 * jasta scolds Google for using the most evil of all languages Mar 05 00:17:49 better than haskell Mar 05 00:17:58 the only things that tripped me up reverse engineering the binary format was that the offsets in the string table aren't sorted in the file Mar 05 00:19:13 duey, I don't think anyone actually *uses* that;-) Mar 05 00:20:06 so you get like a list of offsets like 0x12 0xfe 0xdc 0x4c... Mar 05 00:20:22 jasta: why do you bother? the tool that does it at runtime is not good enough? Mar 05 00:20:25 and then, there are entries in the string table for a blank space and a NUL character. Mar 05 00:21:35 is there a way to have text spans with different colors in a a TextView? Mar 05 00:21:39 romainguy_: yeah, it would, although then i'd have to adapt it to try to figure out how to extract a list of installed system packages, and then a list of that packages resources (drawables, layout), ... Mar 05 00:22:15 i'd much rather just write a tool that takes in a binary xml file and spits out a text one. that way i could extra the android image and plow through it :) Mar 05 00:22:18 damn Mar 05 00:22:31 s/that/those/ Mar 05 00:22:31 jasta meant: i'd much rather just write a tool those takes in a binary xml file and spits out a text one. that way i could extra the android image and plow through it :) Mar 05 00:22:37 jasta: you really like to go against licenses don't you? :) Mar 05 00:23:07 no, not normally Mar 05 00:24:05 romainguy, something that's cool, new, interesting, and will eventually be open source is *completely* "hacker" (in the good sense) bait Mar 05 00:24:12 frankly, I think Google has violated license ;) Mar 05 00:24:19 it says "look at me! see if you can figure out how I work!" Mar 05 00:24:24 for example, Google has violated freetype's license, though not freetype's copyright. Mar 05 00:24:55 you wouuld have to ask David Turner Mar 05 00:25:00 he works on Android after all :) Mar 05 00:25:17 that's what i meant. Mar 05 00:25:25 you don't violate his copyright, because he has given it to you. :) Mar 05 00:25:40 but you do violate his license, since you've not complied with his BSD license :) Mar 05 00:25:50 how so? Mar 05 00:26:43 Well I suppose not since Google does acknowledge it ;) Mar 05 00:27:34 Damn ;) Mar 05 00:27:49 I actually thought that Google wasn't acknowledging freetype for some reason, but here I find it on the what is page. Mar 05 00:28:18 I think Google has enough OS people and lawyers to not screw up very easily Mar 05 00:28:25 sleep time for me...later Mar 05 00:28:44 But anyway, davidw is right. Hacker bait :) Mar 05 00:29:19 But what does it matter with Android's source to be disclosed at some point? Mar 05 01:47:29 hmmm, was that image update related to this article? http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=921 Mar 05 01:47:48 says that there are remote vulnerabilities with android's image handling Mar 05 01:49:01 oh yeah, says it right in google's announcement Mar 05 02:40:23 Hmmm....the TimePickerDialog doesn't work with touchscreen? Mar 05 02:41:22 yes there's a bug Mar 05 02:41:46 hmm... Mar 05 02:42:10 just wonder if the judges apreciate that you're using a standard widget that will eventually work? Mar 05 02:42:24 prolly not Mar 05 02:42:28 don't worry about that Mar 05 02:43:02 ? Mar 05 02:43:21 your app will not be penalized because of a known bug in our framework Mar 05 02:43:46 ok **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 05 02:48:45 2008 Mar 05 03:28:38 why does Math.floor() return a double? Mar 05 03:29:05 because double numbers can be larger than ints Mar 05 03:29:25 can a double be larger than a long? Mar 05 03:32:45 long and double are both 64 bits...don't remember how floating point stuff works though Mar 05 03:34:03 i think they might be the same Mar 05 03:34:17 cant remember Mar 05 03:41:41 a double has a wider integral range than a long. Mar 05 03:41:56 much wider, actually Mar 05 03:43:13 by virtue of the way that doubles are stored as specified by IEEE 754 Mar 05 03:43:24 bbl, heading home Mar 05 03:55:36 yeah but if you floor it Mar 05 03:56:54 romainguy: when using android:visibility="invisible" with a view it's visible for a split second when the activity first starts up...is that normal? Mar 05 05:17:28 hey, what do you guys think is the most appropriate widget for a list that scrolls horizontally/ i've been looking through th docs and I think I just can't hit on the right phrase to search for Mar 05 05:17:57 i just want something with one row and many columns that will spill out of the side of the screen and can be scrolled left and right to reveal more items Mar 05 05:18:19 thedaniel`: no standard widget supports horizontal scrolling Mar 05 05:18:47 romainguy___: in other words, i'm out of luck? or does your use of 'standard' as a modifier imply i could roll my own or otherwise dig deep? Mar 05 05:18:59 thedaniel`: you could def make your own Mar 05 05:19:01 you can implement your own fairly easily Mar 05 05:19:09 ScrollView for instance is not that complicated Mar 05 05:19:16 View contains pretty much everything you need Mar 05 05:19:56 romainguy___: thanks, i'll have a go at it Mar 05 05:44:10 romainguy___: i'm a little new to this, so forgive me if this is obvious, but do you think i should extend ScrollView and add things like computeHorizontalScrollRange and extend pageScroll to support left and right, or should i extend ScrollView's superclass, FrameLayout, and build it up from there? Mar 05 05:52:00 Hmm, good question. I don't know about romainguy (or romainguy_, or romainguy__ :P), but as a rule of thumb, I try to extend from as close to the top of an object hierarchy as possible. Mar 05 05:52:44 Tends to lead to a more adaptable set of classes, and a shallower hierarchy. Mar 05 05:53:32 thedaniel`: if you want to support vertical and horizontal scroll, you might as well extend scrollview Mar 05 05:53:36 otherwise go with framelayout Mar 05 06:00:37 i'd caution against a horizontal scrolling design, as an aside. Mar 05 06:00:57 jasta: why do you think there's no horizontal scrolling widget in Android? :) Mar 05 06:01:03 hehe Mar 05 06:01:08 but eh, if you want to do it, you can Mar 05 06:01:22 gallery kind of scroll might be more appropriate Mar 05 06:01:43 jasta: that's a good point Mar 05 06:02:15 jasta: i ran into my friend that's been wireframing the app at a bar today and he was all about a horizontal scroll pane, so i told him i'd look into it Mar 05 06:02:16 i didn't tell you not to do it, just think carefully about whether you need to. Mar 05 06:02:36 daniel: what are you trying to scroll horizontal? Mar 05 06:02:38 jasta: so maybe tomorrow, when he's not drinking, he'll reconsider Mar 05 06:02:43 romainguy___: to create a custom dialog look do I just create a nine patch background and set that as the background? I guess I can't use the dialog theme if I do that right? Mar 05 06:02:54 muthu: something like a row of tabs Mar 05 06:03:04 muthu: to drill down into multidimensional data Mar 05 06:03:19 i'd caution against that program entirely :) Mar 05 06:03:24 hmmm... tabs Mar 05 06:03:32 zhobbs: I don't see why you couldn't use a theme? Mar 05 06:03:40 but yes, you can just style it Mar 05 06:03:46 er, just set the background Mar 05 06:04:19 it's funny... when I was working on Swing people wanted one thing: their apps to look like the system; now on Android, everybody just want to not look like the system Mar 05 06:04:23 setting the background manually mess ups the default scheme Mar 05 06:04:23 you guys are weird :p Mar 05 06:04:34 muthu: how so? Mar 05 06:04:38 romainguy___: so I can use the dialog theme and just override the background? Mar 05 06:04:42 like selection Mar 05 06:04:53 muthu: selection? in a dialog? Mar 05 06:05:00 in general Mar 05 06:05:04 Oo Mar 05 06:05:08 what are you talking about? Mar 05 06:05:20 in a list Mar 05 06:05:28 zhobbs: that should work yes Mar 05 06:05:41 muthu: if you change the background of the list? Mar 05 06:05:51 set alternating colors for rows Mar 05 06:06:16 muthu: there's an API to do striping Mar 05 06:06:26 yeah.. i saw it in the notepad example Mar 05 06:07:11 may be themes is the preferred way.. to style your components Mar 05 06:07:41 romainguy: why the zoomslider cannot be horizontal? Mar 05 06:08:08 because it was designed to be vertical Mar 05 06:08:25 ah.. such a short sightedness :( Mar 05 06:08:29 .. Mar 05 06:09:01 the framework cannot, unfortunately, offer all of the possible widgets and/or features that everybody needs :) Mar 05 06:09:14 comeon.. this is orientation Mar 05 06:09:29 every widget seems to support this, except zoomslider Mar 05 06:09:47 feel free to file a bug Mar 05 06:09:49 hehe Mar 05 06:09:51 romainguy: GUI 'consistency' on the platform is highly overrated, but WOW do people like to bitch about it. Like whitespace in Pythin. Mar 05 06:09:51 sure Mar 05 06:09:52 and he'll feel free to ignore it Mar 05 06:10:02 chaosvoyager: I totally agree Mar 05 06:10:15 chaosvoyager: it's even funnier when you see how different "native" apps actually are Mar 05 06:10:31 jasta: ZoomSlider's not my area :) Mar 05 06:10:55 chaosvoyager: I bitch about whitespace in python a lot :) Mar 05 06:11:20 if gui consistancy is important to the judges I'm in trouble Mar 05 06:11:47 Personally, I believe applications should look as different as possible. That way you can recognize them when they're zoomed out. Mar 05 06:11:59 zhobbs: stop worrying about that kind of stuff Mar 05 06:12:17 romainguy___: the judges? Mar 05 06:12:25 yes Mar 05 06:12:30 just make an app that rocks :) Mar 05 06:12:42 romainguy is the chief judge :) Mar 05 06:12:46 zhobbs: yeah, are you entering an app competition or a prediction judge psychology competition Mar 05 06:12:52 *predicting Mar 05 06:12:53 he has a list of winners already ;) Mar 05 06:12:54 hehe Mar 05 06:13:28 Um, it's ALWAYS a prediction judge psychology competition. Mar 05 06:14:34 Hmm, why the heck is there a specific zoomslider to begin with? Mar 05 06:14:38 my only hope is that the judges don't pick crud that doesn't catch on. that would be very disappointing. Mar 05 06:14:58 i doubt that will happen though. Mar 05 06:15:03 50 location based social networking apps :) Mar 05 06:15:12 zhobbs: lol, yeah ;) Mar 05 06:15:53 i wish my friend wasn't barred from competition. he did some really cool location-based projects at intel as far back as 5 years ago. Mar 05 06:16:47 but they couldn't launch because it was a major hack to get at the radio data back then. it only worked on 2 phones in the market at the time. Mar 05 06:17:09 it still is, actually. i'm still mystified how Google has access it with "My Location BETA" Mar 05 06:17:15 accessed* Mar 05 06:17:54 they don't support that many handsets, so perhaps they have just expanded upon the same old hack Intel did years ago Mar 05 06:18:40 I hate to say, but location based social networking apps are about the only thing I've found Android to be any good at. Mar 05 06:18:53 BTW, who runs Hello Android again? Mar 05 06:18:57 me Mar 05 06:19:23 chaosvoyager: That's not fair. Android is certainly good at making headlines ;) Mar 05 06:19:47 hey I can read you p Mar 05 06:19:48 Your PhoneFinder should win. Simple and useful. It should be a standard feature oon every cellphone. Mar 05 06:19:48 :p Mar 05 06:20:19 :) just don't let your girlfriend know your password Mar 05 06:20:22 My attraction to Android is largely motivated by its open source promise, corporate sponsorship, and what i would call a well-designed software stack and API. Mar 05 06:20:51 zhobbs: Speaking of... Mar 05 06:21:06 I just happened to having nothing to do when the announcement was made...so I made Hello Android Mar 05 06:21:07 I have a project I wanted to start working on after Android handsets are out in the wild and things have settled a bit... Mar 05 06:21:16 But I can't even tell my girlfriend *THAT* I'm working on it :) Mar 05 06:21:19 let alone give her the password :) Mar 05 06:21:33 *shudder* well...designed... Mar 05 06:21:34 haha, sounds interesting Mar 05 06:21:50 I had this idea a while ago to write an app that lets you place certain contacts in your phone in "stealth mode", so any phone calls, text messages, call logs, etc would not even show up under normal usage of the phone. Mar 05 06:22:01 An incoming call would be immediately ignored so that you wouldn't even know the call came in Mar 05 06:22:01 ahhh...nice Mar 05 06:22:04 things like that Mar 05 06:22:21 and then have a special gesture on the home screen that would open an activity showing you a sort of 'private dashboard' Mar 05 06:22:22 good idea...would just log the call to your secret log Mar 05 06:22:33 so you could put all your ex-girlfriends in the list Mar 05 06:22:41 and occassionally, if you're up to no good, pull up the dashboard :) Mar 05 06:22:48 then lock it back down again Mar 05 06:23:11 it is so sketchy, and my girlfriend would think the worst if she knew i was writing it Mar 05 06:23:23 But what if your ex keeps calling from different phones? Mar 05 06:23:24 yeah, that's a hard sell Mar 05 06:23:39 but the reality is, i have at least 2 people i need to put in there who go years without calling me then randomly i get a drunk dial Mar 05 06:23:44 and i don't recognize the number so i answer Mar 05 06:24:09 That's one way to do it. Mar 05 06:24:31 and occassionally i don't mind the humor, so i actually talk Mar 05 06:24:37 "Security Holes in Google's Android SDK" is the newest story on /. Mar 05 06:24:37 but then i quickly delete the call log and everything Mar 05 06:24:54 talking about the already patched security hole Mar 05 06:25:07 There's actually some guy who created a drunk dialing prevention application, but it needs to be installed on the drunk end to work. Mar 05 06:25:10 zhobbs: that's just because google probably got wind of the vulnerability from the same source :) Mar 05 06:25:35 zhobbs: anyway, i may actually implement that app when phones are available. Mar 05 06:25:42 it's one of those programs you NEED to test with real phones :) Mar 05 06:25:52 because it really can't have any "bugs" in it. that would be catastrophic :) Mar 05 06:26:27 The first application I had in mind for Android was a voice recognition app that blocked calls from specific callers, no matter where they came from. Mar 05 06:26:38 But Android can't do that. Mar 05 06:26:51 why? Mar 05 06:27:04 because you cannot intercept the call's audio Mar 05 06:27:12 No way to access the audio streams. Mar 05 06:27:24 btw, let's all hope that android isn't locked down to hell by the manufacturers. Mar 05 06:27:40 if it remains open and hackable, the project could be easily extended to do anything Google did not intend. Mar 05 06:27:52 or even that Google wanted to actively prevent, such as this. Mar 05 06:27:58 chaosvoyager: I will speak for myself here, but I'm kinda glad to know that apps cannot grab the audio :) Mar 05 06:28:08 I'm interesting in how the permissions is going to work, I assume lots of permissions dialogs when running apps Mar 05 06:28:09 that said I have no idea why it is so Mar 05 06:28:13 and what the plans are for this feature Mar 05 06:28:19 interested* Mar 05 06:28:40 romainguy___: I'm pretty sure there is a legal issue here. Something about recording someone's voice without their consent. Mar 05 06:28:55 That's why everytime you call tech support or customer service they tell you that the call is logged. It's the law. Mar 05 06:29:16 jasta: yeah, think it depends on the state in the US Mar 05 06:29:45 some states only require 1 party to know about audio recording Mar 05 06:29:45 but still, if the platform is hackable, who cares what Google left out ;) Mar 05 06:29:56 romainguy: It's that old Security vs. Safety issue. Mar 05 06:30:07 yeah, we're just waiting for the source so we can fork the crap out of it Mar 05 06:30:55 zhobbs: Amen brother. Mar 05 06:31:12 Didn't even need to hack some phones, they dialed me themselves accidentally when the user had an itch or something. Locking phones should be mandatory :) Mar 05 06:31:50 that's why I've always bought flip phones Mar 05 06:32:40 :) Mar 05 06:32:52 400 lines of perl later, i have reverse engineered the binary XML format Mar 05 06:32:56 ;) Mar 05 06:32:57 I prefer flip phones. Mar 05 06:33:04 jasta: isn't it just WbXML? Mar 05 06:33:06 you the man jasta Mar 05 06:33:11 romainguy___: no, it's not. Mar 05 06:33:14 ok Mar 05 06:33:37 zhobbs: i'll post my results when i get home. i just got the very first successful test run, so we'll see how it does when i mow it over all of the xml files in the system image :) Mar 05 06:33:50 great, lemme know Mar 05 06:34:01 romainguy___: In fact, it seems to be quite, quite different. Mar 05 06:34:15 There is a bunch of extra information I ignored because it seems not relevant to the output XML. Mar 05 06:34:48 Also I get some free assumptions because of its usage in Android. Mar 05 06:35:02 like that the only namespace is android Mar 05 06:35:03 I want a flip phone with an iPod like scroll wheel. Mar 05 06:35:29 jasta: that's not true in Home for instance :)) Mar 05 06:35:48 damnit, really? well, Home will be my first target then Mar 05 06:35:53 hehe Mar 05 06:36:00 i should be able to undo that assumption easily. i only didn't understand how a "list" of namespaces formed given the format. Mar 05 06:36:01 yeah Home contains a custom layout class Mar 05 06:36:03 because it seemed quite static Mar 05 06:36:08 and this class adds its own XML attributes Mar 05 06:36:12 with a different namespace Mar 05 06:36:48 it doesn't seem to be even approximately WbXML. if it was supposed to be like WbXML, it is VERY badly formed :) Mar 05 06:37:42 and there's redundancy everywhere, i doubt that would have made it into WbXML since it is trying to be space-efficient. Mar 05 06:38:33 for example, the size of the binary XML file is in the file itself. also, the string table is indexed very strangely, such that the size is repeated twice *AND* every string is NUL terminated. Mar 05 06:38:56 although the NUL termination was almost certainly done for parser efficiency, as the parser was written in C/C++ afterall :) Mar 05 06:39:04 how do I go about creating an activity that has a receiver so that for a certain intent broadcast it will launch the activity? Mar 05 06:39:28 jasta: was it not some sort of a db? Mar 05 06:39:58 muthu: no. Mar 05 06:40:04 at least, it didn't look to be. Mar 05 06:40:27 there is a large bit of header info that i ignored, which could be some sort of index. Mar 05 06:40:40 also, each tag seems to have 2 extra fields that look to maybe be indices as well. Mar 05 06:40:44 it says DBase 3 data file ?? Mar 05 06:40:52 muthu: file is just confused by the magic in the file. Mar 05 06:40:57 ok Mar 05 06:41:09 file uses a very crude scheme to look at the file, usually based on reading just some small header data. Mar 05 06:41:21 it sometimes happens that two file formats look similar in their headers Mar 05 06:41:31 right Mar 05 06:41:34 it's definitely not a dbase file :) Mar 05 06:41:43 yeah who uses dbase?? Mar 05 06:41:55 I was told that the format was specifically chosen for performance reasons. Mar 05 06:42:09 chaosvoyager: I'm certain that it was, which is why there's so much information I can happily ignore :) Mar 05 06:43:50 od -c is hard to read Mar 05 06:45:09 i can read some permissions that way Mar 05 06:46:45 The activities and services in an application are alive for the lifetime of the application, right? Mar 05 06:47:11 not guarenteed Mar 05 06:48:01 Even in the same app, where they have access to the same application object, and can share globals? Mar 05 06:48:04 not even likely, depending on how you mean "alive". Mar 05 06:50:32 chaosvoyager: if you hit "home" and get side tracked running other apps and stuff it will kill your app for it's resources Mar 05 06:50:41 and it's your job to recover nicely Mar 05 06:51:57 Yes, but it will kill all the processes in that app together. I can count on the processes being alive as long as the app is alive, right? Mar 05 06:52:21 The processes in that app. Mar 05 06:59:42 alright, heading home Mar 05 06:59:45 for real this time Mar 05 07:01:43 night then. Mar 05 07:01:57 so the 9-patch images get "compiled" so that in the jar they don't have the 1 pixel border right? Mar 05 07:04:30 * thedaniel` waits longingly for the day when he can write android apps in python Mar 05 07:04:40 thedaniel`: use jython Mar 05 07:04:52 Funny you should mention that :D Mar 05 07:05:12 Why? Mar 05 07:05:50 No, the Python mention, not Jython. Mar 05 07:06:02 Still, why? : Mar 05 07:06:03 :) Mar 05 07:06:49 romainguy___: will that work, even with the different VM? Mar 05 07:07:15 thedaniel`: I haven't tried so I cannot answer that question :) Mar 05 07:07:30 I would, however, say that I wouldn't expect the apps to run fast :p Mar 05 07:07:51 romainguy___: well then, i'll wait a year for some 800mhz xscale android phones and then go jython crazy ;) Mar 05 07:07:59 uhuh Mar 05 07:08:29 now, if Jython comes with a compiler, that's a different story Mar 05 07:09:04 romainguy___: yeah Mar 05 07:09:08 jythonc generates Java Mar 05 07:09:14 and then you can send that through javac Mar 05 07:09:15 that's what I thought Mar 05 07:09:33 I used Jython a lot in one of my Java apps but that was 8 years ago :) Mar 05 07:12:26 Well, <_< I'm working on a Stackless Python + OpenKODE based mobile platform, partly inspired by my frustration with Android. Mar 05 07:12:54 Mostly inspired though, with all the OTHER mobile platforms. Mar 05 07:13:09 frustration with that is. Mar 05 07:13:15 Except the iPhone. Mar 05 07:13:41 chaosvoyager: well, you'll get your SDK roadmap on thursday Mar 05 07:13:51 and then you can fire up XCode and be happy. Mar 05 07:13:55 ;_; Mar 05 07:14:05 Now all I need is a Mac... Mar 05 07:14:09 And then you can even maybe run your apps if apple will let you Mar 05 07:14:21 chaosvoyager: last week i saw refurb mac minis for like 479 Mar 05 07:14:36 chaosvoyager: if you really want one you could probably save some pennies and get one Mar 05 07:14:42 Euwww, Mac Mini. Mar 05 07:14:58 I'm honestly not sure it's a good dev platform. Mar 05 07:15:40 I'll probably bite the bullet and get a MacBook, even though they don't have the latest nVidia HW. Mar 05 07:16:02 which doesn't matter that much if you don't do games :) Mar 05 07:16:27 0_0 Mar 05 07:16:39 chaosvoyager: macbook is fine but the keyboard blows Mar 05 07:16:49 Yeah, that too -_- Mar 05 07:17:12 chaosvoyager: work computers i've used this year: macbook, macbook pro, thinkpad x series Mar 05 07:17:21 after the last 2 i don't think i can ever go back to the macbook Mar 05 07:17:22 I actually really like the MacBook's keyboard Mar 05 07:17:28 not as good as the MacBook Pro's though Mar 05 07:17:34 Umm...Thinkpad..... Mar 05 07:17:36 romainguy___: some people really get into the light tough and short throw Mar 05 07:17:46 chaosvoyager: yeah, you know, the best laptops ever ;) Mar 05 07:17:46 er, I meant MacBook Pro. Mar 05 07:17:53 *light touch Mar 05 07:18:09 romainguy___: i must hit the keys too ahrd or something tho, they made the backs of my hands hurt Mar 05 07:18:29 thedaniel`: The thing is I never used a desktop machine before I started at Google Mar 05 07:18:41 so after 15 years of laptop keyboards, I'm immune :)) Mar 05 07:18:44 romainguy___: nice Mar 05 07:19:02 romainguy___: i still use laptops for my main machines but i stay off the default kbs as much as possible Mar 05 07:19:20 i have a msft natural at work and a happy hacking for my linux machine at home, very happy with both Mar 05 07:19:57 romainguy: GPUs can be treated as a general DSPs. They're downright critical to running audio, video, and pattern recognition at a useful speeds. Mar 05 07:21:39 chaosvoyager: I know and I have a MacBook Pro because I wanted a good GPU for all the graphics works I do Mar 05 07:21:40 :) Mar 05 07:21:52 but for that kind of work, MacBook is still pretty good Mar 05 07:21:53 Now if I could find a TABLET with discrete graphics. Mar 05 07:22:20 but I'm thinking of finally moving to a desktop Mar 05 07:22:22 i prefer desktop Mar 05 07:22:23 i have a macbook Mar 05 07:22:23 but i hardly ever use it Mar 05 07:22:23 I prefer big screens. Mar 05 07:22:23 my MacBook Pros are struggling with my 30" monitor and Photoshop/Lightroom Mar 05 07:22:23 ^^ Mar 05 07:22:23 i bet Mar 05 07:22:24 id get a macpro Mar 05 07:22:24 but no deskspace left Mar 05 07:22:52 i'd get a macpro but i need to pay my rent and eat Mar 05 07:22:55 ;) Mar 05 07:24:47 I'm waiting until the Geforce 9 series is supported. Mar 05 07:24:47 lol Mar 05 07:24:48 is the geforce 8 supported yet? Mar 05 07:25:21 http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/03/05/0457214.shtml lolsigh Mar 05 07:25:27 Well, the great Werner Herzog stole a camera from his film school because he believed he had an artistic right to it. And Peter Jackson had to actually break into the studio he was using to finish a film he said was already complete. Mar 05 07:25:33 what a stupid article Mar 05 07:26:16 And I have ALL sorts of stories about Steve Jobs :) Mar 05 07:27:25 yeah most involving lsd right? Mar 05 07:27:26 jasta: you there? Mar 05 07:27:28 chaosvoyager: there's the classic tale of the Graphing Calculator team letting themselves into apple after layoffs to finish their products Mar 05 07:27:47 Hehe... Mar 05 07:28:33 Where the hell is that kind of passion today? Mar 05 07:28:33 i have that passion Mar 05 07:28:50 :) Mar 05 07:28:50 unfortinately i wish it would leave for a year so i can finish uni :) Mar 05 07:30:19 Heh. I just read a series of articles on 'why not to become a scientist'. Academia sounds horrible as a career choice. Mar 05 07:31:23 I have a friend working on his Chemistry PhD, he loves it though Mar 05 07:31:59 I'm sure it's the chemistry and not the pay or politics he loves however. Mar 05 07:32:04 uni is a drag Mar 05 07:32:21 academic process is the oppisite of real world Mar 05 07:32:25 yeah, I never liked school Mar 05 07:32:28 its all perfect scenario Mar 05 07:32:35 the world is a perfect circle stuff Mar 05 07:33:33 Programmers should actually study more chemistry for the way molecules communiucate without explicit synchronization and yet create consistent results. Mar 05 07:34:12 finally home Mar 05 07:35:41 duey: i disagree, i have a great deal of respect for what universities are trying to do. Mar 05 07:35:55 What frustrates me is that professional IT is a lot like academic IT, only without the rigorous discipline. Mar 05 07:36:01 i don't Mar 05 07:36:49 bubble wrap if you ask me Mar 05 07:36:49 duey: the idea is to create more precise thinking, so as to harden your ideas from contemporary limits. Mar 05 07:37:32 and that is very useful, but yes not well aligned with the "real world" as you called it. but to be fair, your definition of the "real world" is certain to be constantly in motion. Mar 05 07:37:48 But that's exactly the opposite of what universities seem to do, especially in computer science. Mar 05 07:38:23 chaosvoyager: perhaps it is, but it is not the opposite of what they're trying to do :) Mar 05 07:38:28 maybe it's you who missed the point? :) Mar 05 07:38:44 Hmm, Mar 05 07:38:48 university is what you make of it...I didn't make enough of it, some people do Mar 05 07:39:07 to be fair, i should confess that i have never attended a university. Mar 05 07:39:28 right Mar 05 07:39:40 but i have certainly been a part of the collegiate circle. Mar 05 07:40:03 Well, I can say for certain what their intents are, but they could certainly pay their professors more :) Mar 05 07:40:24 i am certain their professors make plenty :) Mar 05 07:40:36 yeah most profressors have outside interests Mar 05 07:40:40 professors* Mar 05 07:41:02 Well, http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science Mar 05 07:44:20 hehe, my wife has a PhD, but I didn't get a degree at all Mar 05 07:46:05 my girlfriend is pursuing hers ;) Mar 05 07:47:08 I was just frustrated with the whole system. I couldn't explore concepts in any way I found useful. People would ask me if I was studying to become a chemist or a programmer, and I'd answer "Both!". Mar 05 07:48:29 Computers and music was another 'cross discipline' (I HATE that term) subject I persued. Mar 05 07:48:43 er, 'were'. Mar 05 07:49:43 I just hated manditory homework assignments...that's for high school not college Mar 05 07:49:53 a chemist programmer? that's just crazy. Mar 05 07:50:09 that's like being a dogwalking accountant Mar 05 07:50:27 :P Mar 05 07:50:33 dogwalker even Mar 05 07:50:55 Well, at the very least, you need to know both if you want to write chemical simulation software. Mar 05 07:51:21 And that usually requires quite a bit of quantum physics too. Mar 05 07:51:41 damn, it's really snowing now Mar 05 07:53:02 Many medical applications are written by doctors, not programmers, and their design often suffers for it. Mar 05 07:53:42 And they usually use VB. Mar 05 07:54:58 chaosvoyager: so do you write chem simulations? Mar 05 07:55:23 Use to. Mar 05 07:55:47 I mostly apply what I learned in chemistry to computing. Mar 05 07:55:56 i was consideirng going that route Mar 05 07:55:59 gone ai instead Mar 05 07:56:26 Turns out its a little difficult to do with the way CPUs are currently designed. Mar 05 07:57:26 davidw: matt raible will be happy Mar 05 07:57:46 who's that? Mar 05 07:57:57 he is a java blogger Mar 05 07:58:01 hah, this slashdot article: Mar 05 07:58:03 OH, here's another one that sucks. A perfect use of dual processing would be to seperate the applications on one CPU, and the JIT/GC on the other. But modern implementations make this all but impossible to do. Mar 05 07:58:12 "Google's Android software development kit is using several outdated and vulnerable open-source image processing libraries, some of which can be exploited to take complete control of mobile devices running the Android platform Mar 05 07:58:34 davidw, yeah Mar 05 07:58:40 gee, I guess I'll have to get my devices updated.... Mar 05 07:58:40 its stupid Mar 05 07:59:17 I karma whored a link to the android-developers blog in the comments Mar 05 08:00:36 (* looks at /. *) So truly fucking useless. Mar 05 08:00:39 aw Mar 05 08:00:43 did another sdk get released Mar 05 08:00:45 stab Mar 05 08:01:01 r15 is the latest Mar 05 08:01:18 Hmm, '/.' is used as the 'lambda' symbol in some forms of LISP. Mar 05 08:02:15 duey: m5-r15 was released yesterday Mar 05 08:03:44 Heh, never realized how much it sounds like a real 'droid' designation :) Mar 05 08:04:18 yeah, or milestone and release. Mar 05 08:12:13 gah, the string table is aligned ;) Mar 05 08:12:16 didn't realize that before Mar 05 08:17:49 jasta: pv Mar 05 08:18:04 i'm not getting any? Mar 05 08:18:09 weird Mar 05 08:18:10 send me one? Mar 05 08:18:13 are you registered? Mar 05 08:18:31 yes I think so Mar 05 08:18:38 i just messaged you Mar 05 08:18:39 or maybe not on this computer Mar 05 08:18:42 hmm I replied Mar 05 08:18:43 prff Mar 05 08:18:46 didn't get it :) Mar 05 08:19:01 hwo do you register again? Mar 05 08:19:05 stupid freenode Mar 05 08:19:14 i dunno, i have it automated. /msg nickserv help register maybe? Mar 05 08:19:22 romainguy__: you probably registered "romainguy" Mar 05 08:19:56 ok done Mar 05 08:22:46 slashdot at least seems to have the dubious merit of having hit bottom and bounced back a bit, and is not actively on a downward trajectory Mar 05 08:24:41 slashdot's just like the mainstream media. you can't detect the obvious errors and omissions unless the post is regarding something you know a lot about, then it sounds like total gibberish. Mar 05 08:25:12 i still read it, though, just like i still read the news :) Mar 05 08:26:31 it's still more "valuable" than digg or reddit most of the time Mar 05 08:26:37 The thing I find interesting is how slashdot uses its readers to moderate. Mar 05 08:27:15 digg and reddit are good to glance over rss feeds, but slashdot is actually worth going to a lot of days Mar 05 08:30:31 Anyone familiar with Erlang? Mar 05 08:32:23 chaosvoyager, a bit, why? Mar 05 08:32:30 there's an #erlang that's pretty good... Mar 05 08:32:54 reddit started out pretty good and then took a nose dive Mar 05 08:33:11 wisdom of crowds indeed... more like the ignorance of mobs Mar 05 08:33:40 Just asking. I think it's useful to know for things like Android. Not necessarily to program in, but the philosophy behind it. Mar 05 08:34:10 chaosvoyager, ah, it's a cool language, definitely give it a look Mar 05 08:34:20 I don't know how much it really relates to android though Mar 05 08:34:45 to do concurrency like erlang, you pretty much have to set the whole system up that way, all the way down Mar 05 08:35:25 Has a lot to say about safe asynchronous processes communicating reliably. Mar 05 08:35:43 ..though. Mar 05 08:36:50 Heh, filtering group stupidity is THE problem in internet indexing today. Mar 05 08:37:30 The entity that solves that problem (if it can be solved sufficiently in the first place) is the next Google. Mar 05 08:43:46 may be its not indexing at all Mar 05 08:43:53 its something else Mar 05 08:44:45 chaos: i understand what you are saying though Mar 05 08:45:08 next Google is always an interesting and challenging thought :) Mar 05 08:46:30 how can i execute multiple SQL statements at once... separated by ; ? Mar 05 08:46:52 i thought it was possible with execSQL but i see it's not Mar 05 08:58:59 romainguy: i thought about what you said and realized that most of this data i don't understand is probably not data at all. might just be the result of writing a packed structure. *tsk tsk* :) Mar 05 08:59:30 Junk DNA :P Mar 05 08:59:58 romainguy: i'm noticing that what i thought was a sentinel before might not actually be. Mar 05 09:00:07 just seems that way entirely by accident Mar 05 09:02:39 because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's useless :p Mar 05 09:03:13 romainguy: No, I think that it is actually junk being put here by a packed C or C++ struct. Mar 05 09:04:17 specifically because it's not predictably set. the same flags can be found on a row and sometimes the field i thought was a sentinel will be ~0, or 0, or something entirely different. Mar 05 09:04:26 recently i've noticed it can be feff ffff Mar 05 09:05:24 Damnit, I have to select a OS license (but which one) >_< Mar 05 09:05:32 I hate the political shit. Mar 05 09:05:42 this makes sense now seeing that so much of this data format depends on alignment. Mar 05 09:06:16 jasta: "So most things are padded to integer boundaries" Mar 05 09:06:16 chaosvoyager: you could choose to waive all copyright, if you want. Mar 05 09:07:18 right, that's what i meant. the more i think about what you said the more i realize that this could just be a dirty memcpy trick that puts a bunch of irrelevant crud into the file Mar 05 09:07:51 chaosvoyager: http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/ Mar 05 09:10:24 license war! Mar 05 09:10:41 ohh actually, i think i have figured out how to use the flags to determine the length of each record Mar 05 09:10:44 hooray Mar 05 09:10:46 chaosvoyager, depends on your goals Mar 05 09:11:28 sadly that's not an option on Google code (though fits my style rater well). Mar 05 09:11:58 it also lacks a warranty clause :p Mar 05 09:12:39 My goal is fast adoption. Mar 05 09:13:14 chaosvoyager: BSD ? Mar 05 09:14:01 If you think that will lead to the fastest rate of adoption, then yes. Mar 05 09:14:17 yeah, bsd or apache means companies will use it as well Mar 05 09:14:17 it's also the closest to the WTFPL :) Mar 05 09:14:30 davidw: yes, that's why I'm quite fond of BSD Mar 05 09:14:44 depends on what kind of code it is too Mar 05 09:14:52 choose Apache license Mar 05 09:14:52 that is why i'm fond of the GPL :) Mar 05 09:14:55 makes it usable by all Mar 05 09:14:57 I thought MIT was. Mar 05 09:14:57 more or less self contained apps can be GPL and companies will still use them Mar 05 09:15:17 jasta: I dislike GPL very much Mar 05 09:15:18 the link clause. Mar 05 09:15:19 libraries that are GPL will be avoided by companies Mar 05 09:15:31 jasta: mostly because I got screwed by it on my own project a few years ago :)) Mar 05 09:15:41 davidw: so true... even LGPL ones :( Mar 05 09:15:42 romainguy: how can your own project screw you? Mar 05 09:15:46 companies will avoid stuff labeled 'public domain' and prefer Apache-style licenses even Mar 05 09:16:16 jasta: get contributions under GPL, contributors refuse license change or exemption and you lose a lot of flexibility :)) Mar 05 09:16:27 jasta: which is exactly what GPL is made for Mar 05 09:16:33 OTOH, with BSD stuff, there is always something of a risk that one company could hire up most of the developers and esentially take new development private Mar 05 09:16:34 it's just not what I want Mar 05 09:16:58 which is what happened with a lot of BSD stuff under Sun 20 something years ago Mar 05 09:17:10 it's probably less likely today, but it depends on the project Mar 05 09:17:16 I guess Mar 05 09:17:40 I just release my stuff under BSD :) Mar 05 09:17:41 the way to keep that from happening is to get a good, diverse community Mar 05 09:18:02 The only thing I like about the GPL is that it can keep a platform consistent. There's no forking just to make things incompatible. Mar 05 09:18:22 chaosvoyager: and it's great in the regard Mar 05 09:18:24 romainguy: I'm not following I guess. If contributors don't like your license choice, how is that the GPL's fault? I mean, if they don't want you switching away from the GPL, how is that idfferent than you never having chose it? Mar 05 09:18:31 chaosvoyager: that's also why Sun chose GPL for the JDK Mar 05 09:18:38 But you're better off doing that through trademarks like Sun did with Java. Mar 05 09:19:28 jasta: in this case it was to switch to LGPL to let companies use the stuff more easily, as per numerous requests Mar 05 09:19:55 and so your contributors protested? Mar 05 09:20:03 jasta: no, I just asked and they refused Mar 05 09:20:12 which is fine and understandable Mar 05 09:20:12 who did you attribute copyright to? Mar 05 09:20:32 copyright was per contributor basis Mar 05 09:20:40 anyway Mar 05 09:20:48 the copyright holder always has the right to change the licensing terms, without anyone's consent. Mar 05 09:21:07 of course it does not cover previous works. Mar 05 09:21:40 and if you have copyrighted GPL bits from other contributors, you quickly get a mess :) Mar 05 09:21:57 sounds like they were kind of lame to not go along with you if it was your project Mar 05 09:21:59 But I guess my real point is that if the contributors refused to switch to LGPL, what do you think would have been the case if it was LGPL from the start? Maybe those contributors would have never even been there for you? :) Mar 05 09:22:21 heh, that's part of the calculation as well... Mar 05 09:22:33 And so you rproject would have lost value in other ways. Mar 05 09:22:34 jasta: Maybe, maybe not. There's no way to know. Mar 05 09:22:38 some people get paranoid that they're doing free work for a commercial shop Mar 05 09:22:48 The real bottom line is that the GPL does not prevent business application, it merely forces them to Do The Right Thing. Mar 05 09:23:06 jasta: depends on what Do The Right Thing is Mar 05 09:23:22 The GPL is a guarantee that the project will remain in the author's original spirit. And that is especially important to me. Mar 05 09:23:57 jasta: and to me I find it a restriction; I feel that if I decide to release my code, it should be available and usable no matter (basically) what you want to do Mar 05 09:24:10 Ok...how the hell do I find my Google Code projects?!?! Mar 05 09:24:12 and I'm perfectly fine with companies using the code, working on it and not contributing back Mar 05 09:24:19 I have personally had to defend my works from scummy malware spreading companies; I am glad to have the GPL to help me. Mar 05 09:24:31 and that's why I like the BSD Mar 05 09:24:45 chaosvoyager, perhaps you could...uh...Google them?:-) Mar 05 09:24:51 Peanut butter////Chocolate! Mar 05 09:24:57 I DID! Mar 05 09:25:01 NOTHING! Mar 05 09:25:18 wow... maybe you should try ask.com or something;-) Mar 05 09:25:28 rather...I DID google them, and got NOTHING. Mar 05 09:25:32 or yahoo, for old time's sakes before it gets bought and Mar 05 09:25:35 dismembered Mar 05 09:26:29 jasta, in some cases, people in commercial settings want to use an open source library. There's no way that they can open source their whole app, but if they're smart, they'll contribute back to the one lib, because it's not really something that is a differentiator for their business Mar 05 09:26:49 but if it's GPL, they can't use it, and there is no possibility of getting anything back Mar 05 09:27:05 the GPL is not as poisonous as you believe. Mar 05 09:27:12 no it's not Mar 05 09:27:21 but scary enough to scare companies away Mar 05 09:27:27 if it's a library as in my example, it is Mar 05 09:27:29 unfortunately so Mar 05 09:27:31 But the FUD is enough, yes. Mar 05 09:27:39 if it's a standalone app, then of course it isn't Mar 05 09:27:42 Wow, found it. Mar 05 09:28:02 That's just bizzare. Mar 05 09:28:27 * davidw has a pretty good grasp of this stuff... I've been doing it for 10+ years with lots of people that get really excited about licenses Mar 05 09:28:38 (Debian and Apache) Mar 05 09:28:47 ^^ Mar 05 09:28:58 I'm happy Google chose Apache 2.0 for Android :) Mar 05 09:52:30 yay, my XML parser finally satisfies all the XML files I have personally created :) Mar 05 09:52:46 tomorrow I will write a script to use it on all of Google's :) Mar 05 09:53:36 Heh Mar 05 09:53:45 nice Mar 05 09:54:09 there is so much in that format i have just ignored hehe Mar 05 09:54:35 doesn't matter as long as output is complete Mar 05 09:54:41 i'm certain my parser is broken though. i need to further scrutinize what the tag flags mean so that i know how many bytes to read from the file. Mar 05 09:55:14 right now i just scan until i hit this ffff ffff block, but i am starting to see that this block is not really a sentinel at all :) Mar 05 09:55:31 but the length of each element is not constant. it varies based on the flags somehow. Mar 05 09:55:34 but there are a lot of flags ;) Mar 05 09:56:17 anyway, i will finish this tomorrow and post my results. Mar 05 09:56:36 You know what's going to happen, don't you? You'll finish your app right when Google releases the specification. Mar 05 09:57:02 i'm betting that google never really releases a specification, they will probably just dump the source code to the parser and writer. Mar 05 09:57:16 but that would still invalidate my code ;) Mar 05 09:57:26 and that's months away I bet Mar 05 09:57:29 to be honest, i just did it because i was looking for a little break from Java ;) Mar 05 09:57:48 and i got sick of hearing myself say "the format has got to be so easy to reverse." Mar 05 09:57:57 hehe Mar 05 09:58:03 There should be another category of open source called lazy source -_-. Mar 05 09:58:07 it was more difficult than i expected, though. lots of voodoo :P Mar 05 09:58:58 d'oh, all the strings are in UTF-16. i'd better convert it to UTF-6 for printing. Mar 05 09:59:02 You should try embedded programmimg. That's ALL black magic. Mar 05 09:59:27 UTF-8, i mean Mar 05 09:59:28 of course Mar 05 09:59:55 jeez...this poor bird outside is getting covered with snow Mar 05 10:00:15 i love the snow, i wish it would snow here more often Mar 05 10:00:39 it's pretty ridiculous - it hasn't snowed this much the whole winter Mar 05 10:00:58 I went for a bike ride on Monday and it was warmer than 15C Mar 05 10:01:13 http://www.flickr.com/photos/devjasta/sets/72157603498623623/ Mar 05 10:01:41 snow camping is so much fun :) Mar 05 10:02:17 * zhobbs has seen snow 1 time Mar 05 10:02:32 and it was barely snowing Mar 05 10:02:34 snow snow... hmmm Mar 05 10:02:41 damn California Mar 05 10:02:50 I've decided I don't mind it... it's the gray that I can't stand Mar 05 10:02:51 romainguy: i'm headed to Tahoe at the end of this month. Mar 05 10:02:56 nice Mar 05 10:03:09 I really need to bring my ski gear back from France Mar 05 10:03:16 I didn't go skiing this year @!# Mar 05 10:03:27 i've been up 12 times this season Mar 05 10:03:32 and i'm looking forward to great spring skiing ;) Mar 05 10:04:00 I need to go skiing before global warming makes it impossible. Mar 05 10:06:13 I haven't been able to make a snowman here on Long Island for two years. Mar 05 10:09:46 Global warming makes the artic an attractive holiday resort Mar 05 10:10:16 Yeah, what's left of it. Mar 05 10:10:37 let's skiing in greenland Mar 05 10:10:47 let's *go Mar 05 10:11:17 Google should sponser a trip :) Mar 05 10:11:35 or invest in desert skiing Mar 05 10:11:48 definitely Mar 05 10:11:50 ...yes, let's all burn up massive amounts of carbon to go elsewhere for skiiing.... Mar 05 10:12:02 I second that Mar 05 10:12:05 Well, water skiing at least. Mar 05 10:12:07 programmers are far more productive after an extended holiday Mar 05 10:12:26 Are they? Mar 05 10:13:26 sure Mar 05 10:14:13 I thought they were more productive with 16 hours of work, fast food, coke, coffee, low pay and the beleif that they are doing something useful Mar 05 10:14:45 I am suppose to go on holiday tonight and don t want to Mar 05 10:14:51 haha damn you android! Mar 05 10:15:12 OK, now I need to name my project, but should I use just [name], or [name]-xseed-us so it's consistent with the way I've named all my other projects on Google code? Mar 05 10:15:15 I wish I could go on holiday tonight :) Mar 05 10:16:10 chaosvoyager, how about 'Bob' ? Mar 05 10:16:16 consistency I recommend and Paris I will go to Mar 05 10:16:32 I'll be gone all next week, guess that's why I'm working this late... Mar 05 10:16:32 yea Bob is good, I changed my mind Mar 05 10:17:27 holy crap, it's past 2am Mar 05 10:17:49 have anyone used the sharedUserId? Mar 05 10:17:52 which means it's past 5 here ... Mar 05 10:17:55 I'd love to but 'Bob' appears to be.....(*search returns*)..damnit, it's available -_- Mar 05 10:18:09 11 am here and the sun is out :) Mar 05 10:18:27 10 here and no sun in sight Mar 05 10:18:28 night folks, it's definitely my bed time Mar 05 10:18:35 cya jasta Mar 05 10:18:45 nt Mar 05 10:18:50 sweet droid dreams Mar 05 10:19:04 may the droid be with you Mar 05 10:19:17 * jasta dreams about skateboarding androids Mar 05 10:19:24 Funny, I don't remember owning a Droid.... Mar 05 10:19:31 gn Mar 05 10:19:55 Androids Dream of Electric Sheep Mar 05 10:20:08 Do they? Mar 05 10:20:17 good question Mar 05 10:21:21 haven't read the book, so don't know Mar 05 10:21:30 I guess you can figure it out when you get the source code Mar 05 10:22:29 So, the Source controls my actions, but it also obeys my commands..... Mar 05 10:22:38 it's all in the source code Mar 05 10:24:12 does anybody know how the shareUserID works? willl it set the group permission of the application to the same group as the sharedUserId? Mar 05 10:26:21 I have no idea. Mar 05 10:27:16 oh this is odd... Mar 05 10:27:19 never even heard of this stuff Mar 05 10:28:31 fiddling with the apk makes me lose the reference to the icon....ARGH Mar 05 10:28:52 (*pat pat*) Mar 05 10:31:14 OK, it is lat....early. I better get going. Mar 05 10:33:09 cya all gotta go work a bit Mar 05 10:33:59 bye Mar 05 10:36:18 so... is there a way to do an update on a zip file and have the new entry added in the same slot it was before? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Mar 05 10:59:56 2008