**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Mar 06 10:59:56 2008
Mar 06 11:14:22 <chaosvoyager> How's everyone doing in their projects?
Mar 06 11:18:16 <muthu> doesn't look promising :(
Mar 06 11:19:11 <muthu> layouts and orientation.. killing me
Mar 06 11:20:58 <chaosvoyager> I just learned of a hack to use a single XML layout multiple places.
Mar 06 11:21:28 <chaosvoyager> Why is shit like that even necessary?
Mar 06 11:25:49 <mike1o> chaosvoyager, having a lot problems
Mar 06 11:26:47 <chaosvoyager> Technically, not any more, but I'm trying to help some people with theirs.
Mar 06 11:29:58 <chaosvoyager> The design philosophy seems to be to keep Android simple, but it seems so simple that people end up having to create some ugly hack to implement the features they want.
Mar 06 11:31:28 <muthu> i'm sure its evolving
Mar 06 11:34:36 <acsia> has anyone been able to use android.dalvik.dexfile?
Mar 06 11:34:46 <acsia> to load classes on the fly?
Mar 06 11:36:43 <chaosvoyager> muthu: To be honest, I'm concerned it isn't. I think most of the design decisions have already been made.
Mar 06 11:37:04 <davidw> I'm sure it'll get another kick when it's open sourced
Mar 06 11:37:16 <muthu> chaosvoyager: come on
Mar 06 11:37:20 <muthu> its not even alpha yet
Mar 06 11:37:27 <chaosvoyager> Oh pod...it will FORK like an SOB :P
Mar 06 11:37:48 <muthu> should landscape be the default?
Mar 06 11:38:12 <davidw> acsia, keep us posted if you fool around with that stuff
Mar 06 11:38:19 <muthu> right now the app is disfunctional from a landscape perspective
Mar 06 11:41:12 <davidw> acsia, why do you use /notice or whatever?
Mar 06 11:41:46 <chaosvoyager> muthu: To be fair, were this anyone else but Google, and were they NOT offering  money to develop ON it, I would be a lot more patient. Personally, I feel like a dirty trick has been played on me.
Mar 06 11:42:06 <chaosvoyager> It's not all bad however, as phone drivers will be open source.
Mar 06 11:42:14 <acsia>  I tend to do so when you direct a message, don t have to
Mar 06 11:42:27 <chaosvoyager> So because of Andriod, cell phones do end up becomming more open.
Mar 06 11:43:03 <acsia> I am suppose to be on vacation and the first thing I did when waking was to connect...
Mar 06 11:43:23 <davidw> chaosvoyager, http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2008/02/21/android-commercial-meets-open-source
Mar 06 11:45:23 <muthu> acsia: that's the spirit
Mar 06 11:45:48 <muthu> chaosvoyager: yeah lot of unanswered questions about android
Mar 06 11:51:19 <chaosvoyager> davidw: And that middle ground is the problem. All I care about is that it works (commercial PoV), or if it doesn't I can fix it (open source PoV). Currently, I cannot do either. It's the worst of both possible worlds.
Mar 06 11:52:17 <chaosvoyager> But I wouldn't be here if I thought it was a lost cause.
Mar 06 11:54:00 <muthu> hope google can make me the next google ;)
Mar 06 11:54:06 <muthu> ha ha
Mar 06 11:54:24 <chaosvoyager> sure :)
Mar 06 11:54:28 <muthu> s/me/us
Mar 06 11:57:22 <muthu> is that even possible? you build something big on android and then google is your competition.. take that google!
Mar 06 11:57:52 <chaosvoyager> Well, that's sorta what the iPhone did.
Mar 06 11:57:57 <chaosvoyager> In a way.
Mar 06 11:58:50 <muthu> interesting
Mar 06 11:59:04 <chaosvoyager> I don't even own one, but after just a brief test in the store, I actually prefer browsing the web on it. And if Apple controls the access point, they control...well...a lot.
Mar 06 11:59:34 <chaosvoyager> Coincidentally, neither Android nor iPhone will have Flash.
Mar 06 12:01:10 <muthu> is it good or bad?
Mar 06 12:01:59 <chaosvoyager> Hmm, not sure, just interesting. :)
Mar 06 12:02:55 <chaosvoyager> The only bad thing I can see is all that great Flash content such as games and animation goes to waste. On the other, I know people with an irrational hatred of Flash because of ads.
Mar 06 12:05:07 <muthu> if you let flash in.. they take over
Mar 06 12:05:50 <chaosvoyager> If only Adobe's compeditors knew why :)
Mar 06 12:06:31 <muthu> true
Mar 06 12:08:50 <chaosvoyager> iPhone has Javascript+SVG (or are they still stuck at HTML?), which is actually pretty similar in capability to Flash and Silverlight. There's not much in one you can't do in the other.
Mar 06 12:09:44 <chaosvoyager> It's going to end up being a war of cultures.
Mar 06 12:10:05 <muthu> iphone vs android
Mar 06 12:11:07 <chaosvoyager> If we're talking the cultural makeup of the people behind those platforms, then yes.
Mar 06 12:13:20 <chaosvoyager> That's really the main driver. Technical merit has little to do with it. Certain people use Blackberries, certain people use iPhones, and certain people use Boost Mobile (where you at?). Sidekick is also a culture unto itself, but not as much as those three.
Mar 06 12:14:45 <muthu> yes.. why developer
Mar 06 12:14:55 <muthu> why developer's are attracted to android?
Mar 06 12:15:24 <chaosvoyager> Exactly, the open source angle is a big one.
Mar 06 12:16:21 <muthu> correct
Mar 06 12:17:11 <muthu> funny view doesn't inherit attributes from parents by default
Mar 06 12:18:55 <chaosvoyager> However, the Android culture already exists. It's here, and it doesn't need a phone to grow and sustain itself :)
Mar 06 12:20:57 <chaosvoyager> Blackberry users tend to die when the service is cut :P
Mar 06 12:21:16 <muthu> yeah i heard stories of them
Mar 06 12:21:40 <muthu> addicts ;)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Mar 06 12:37:06 2008

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Mar 06 12:37:34 2008
Mar 06 12:46:01 <chaosvoyager> Innnnnnnteresting... http://www.hikerproject.org/
Mar 06 12:51:08 <chaosvoyager> Notification Manager, Alarm Manager, OpenBind, this all sounds a bit familiar.
Mar 06 12:52:19 <muthu> looks like android
Mar 06 12:52:29 <muthu> similar design
Mar 06 12:52:35 <chaosvoyager> Yes, yes it does :)
Mar 06 12:54:18 <chaosvoyager> Last news was in June 07, so I'm not precisely certain that it ISN'T a proto-android.
Mar 06 12:54:42 <mike1o> very suspicious
Mar 06 12:56:18 <chaosvoyager> Behold, ancient Neandroithal.
Mar 06 12:56:37 <chaosvoyager> Bah! that sounded better in my head.
Mar 06 12:57:48 <chaosvoyager> And making my search for further connections more difficult is the fact that the words 'android' and 'hiker' has a stron association with the works of a certain Douglas Adams.
Mar 06 13:00:10 <mike1o> how do I hack in to an apk file?
Mar 06 13:00:37 <muthu> mike: jasta had an perl script
Mar 06 13:01:08 <muthu> its in his blog
Mar 06 13:03:33 <mike1o> url?
Mar 06 13:03:59 <muthu> 1 sec
Mar 06 13:04:22 <mike1o> 1 sec has passed :)
Mar 06 13:04:48 <mike1o> just kidding
Mar 06 13:04:49 <muthu> http://devtcg.blogspot.com/2008/03/tool-to-read-android-binary-xml-files.html
Mar 06 13:04:58 <mike1o> tnx dude
Mar 06 13:05:05 <muthu> cool
Mar 06 13:07:16 <chaosvoyager> This may help too... http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/18/android-package
Mar 06 13:46:04 <chaosvoyager> Quick question: is it possible to repurpose the menu, home, and back buttons?
Mar 06 13:52:40 <muthu> chaosvoyager: that would be hijacking
Mar 06 13:54:10 <chaosvoyager> Yes. And yet there's a somewhat rude question about it on the dev boards. If it's possible, it would be a disaster. But IS it?
Mar 06 13:55:07 <muthu> currently its not possible
Mar 06 13:55:19 <chaosvoyager> Yae!
Mar 06 13:55:35 <muthu> we'll ask romainguy
Mar 06 14:31:58 <chaosvoyager> (* reads something *) bwuhahaHAHAHAHA!
Mar 06 15:44:19 <mike1o> I am inspecting system apk's now
Mar 06 15:45:00 <mike1o> where do system manifests get their stuff from?
Mar 06 15:45:34 <davidw> from Google, presumably
Mar 06 16:25:41 <jasta> zhobbs: i just lookedat your notification with sound code, it seems kind of obvious why this won't work
Mar 06 16:26:06 <jasta> android.net.Uri's do not specify file paths.
Mar 06 16:26:23 <jasta> unless of course file:///foo/ is supported, which i doubt that it is
Mar 06 16:26:26 <Aetmos> Does anybody happen to know how to increase or decrease the indent of a block of code in Eclipse?
Mar 06 16:26:37 <Aetmos> I'm not used to Eclipse...and can't find it anywhere...
Mar 06 16:26:50 <jasta> Aetmos: Source menu, Shift Left/Right
Mar 06 16:27:08 <Aetmos> Source Menu?
Mar 06 16:27:53 <Aetmos> I don't seem to have a source menu
Mar 06 16:28:48 <jasta> Yes you do
Mar 06 16:29:27 <Aetmos> jasta: any hints on where it might be?
Mar 06 16:30:46 * Aetmos scratches his head
Mar 06 16:33:40 <Aetmos> File | Edit | Navigate | Search | Project | Run | Window | Help
Mar 06 16:45:20 <davidw> his underscoreness has arrived
Mar 06 16:46:05 <romainguy__> oļ
Mar 06 16:55:03 <Lede> romainguy__: hey
Mar 06 16:55:16 <Lede> romainguy__: how many submissions did you guys get already
Mar 06 16:55:48 <romainguy__> I have no idea, you should ask jasonchen or morrilld
Mar 06 16:56:06 <Lede> jasonchen !!
Mar 06 16:56:13 <Lede> *highlight*
Mar 06 16:56:28 <Lede> romainguy__: how many do you expect?
Mar 06 16:56:37 <Lede> +500?
Mar 06 16:56:41 <romainguy__> I have no idea
Mar 06 16:56:47 <Lede> guess?
Mar 06 16:58:46 <davidw> one meeeeelion
Mar 06 16:58:56 <davidw> food shopping time
Mar 06 17:00:10 <Lede> oh me too
Mar 06 17:00:17 <Lede> i just want romainguy__ to say something :P
Mar 06 17:00:35 <romainguy__> Lede: but I won't :)
Mar 06 17:00:46 <muthu> there has been around 750k sdk downloads
Mar 06 17:01:01 <Lede> waoh
Mar 06 17:01:07 <Lede> so i guess more then 500
Mar 06 17:01:17 <muthu> way more
Mar 06 17:01:25 <zhobbs> how many good ones though?
Mar 06 17:01:31 <muthu> 50
Mar 06 17:01:40 <Lede> 50.5
Mar 06 17:01:47 <Lede> romainguy__: how will you test everything ._o
Mar 06 17:02:07 <romainguy__> I don't know, I will be busy writing the UI toolkit :)
Mar 06 17:02:21 <Lede> lucky
Mar 06 17:02:21 <romainguy__> again, the advocates may know the answers to these questions
Mar 06 17:02:26 <romainguy__>  I know nothing about the contest
Mar 06 17:02:36 <kurzum> ok lets ask em! :)
Mar 06 17:02:36 <Lede> i feel sorry for whoever needs to test everything
Mar 06 17:03:10 * Lede ->shop("food");
Mar 06 17:14:19 <zhobbs> jasta: how do I build a Uri to a specific path/file?
Mar 06 17:15:36 <zhobbs> jasta: I also tried sticking it in the app's /data/data/<package>/files and then using file://files/file.mp3 and file://file.mp3 and neither worked
Mar 06 17:21:38 <zhobbs> Ahhh, this works: Uri.fromFile(new File("/system/media/audio/ringtones/ringer.mp3"));
Mar 06 17:23:15 <mike1o> davidw, for example in the maps manifest there is a reference to  "string/perm_label" but I can't see where they take that
Mar 06 17:24:02 <romainguy__> mike1o: it's probably in res/values/strings.xml
Mar 06 17:24:41 <mike1o> romainguy, yeah but I can't find that anywhere
Mar 06 17:25:27 <mike1o> im in the adb shell now
Mar 06 17:25:47 <romainguy__> it must be inside the .apk
Mar 06 17:25:52 <romainguy__> in the binary XML
Mar 06 17:26:14 <jasta> zhobbs: I don't think you do: I think you would need a content provider serving up that file by implementing openFile for the URL requested.
Mar 06 17:26:34 <zhobbs> jasta: this works  Uri.fromFile(new File("/system/media/audio/ringtones/ringer.mp3"));
Mar 06 17:26:50 <jasta> ahh, then they must implement file://
Mar 06 17:26:59 <jasta> Uri.fromFile is probably just a simple convenience.
Mar 06 17:27:06 <zhobbs> yeah, for some reason when I debugged it wouldn't show me the value there
Mar 06 17:27:31 <jasta> but still, that means there is a content provider somewhere honoring that request.
Mar 06 17:30:32 <zhobbs> the underlaying Uri is file:///system/media/audio/ringtones/ringer.mp3
Mar 06 17:30:44 <jasta> i assumed as much :)
Mar 06 17:35:39 <mike1o> romainguy__, I thought that too... i just unzipped the apk file but it ain't there...
Mar 06 17:37:53 <muthu> zhobbs: can you store in raw and play
Mar 06 17:38:12 <jasta> mike1o: it's in res/values/strings.xml
Mar 06 17:38:39 <muthu> jasta: how do you play the media in the "raw" folder?
Mar 06 17:38:52 <zhobbs> muthu: dunno, you would have to be able to play it from it's resid
Mar 06 17:39:04 <jasta> a few ways...
Mar 06 17:39:32 <zhobbs> might have to implement a provider right?
Mar 06 17:40:35 <jasta> no, don't raw resources still have a resource id?  R.raw.something?
Mar 06 17:40:48 <jasta> with htat, you could use MediaPlayer.create(this, R.raw...) for example
Mar 06 17:40:51 <muthu> yeah R.raw
Mar 06 17:40:56 <muthu> that gives inputstream
Mar 06 17:41:00 <muthu> what's the filepath though?
Mar 06 17:41:19 <zhobbs> yeah, don't think you can get Uri from raw
Mar 06 17:41:31 <jasta> i dont think you can either, since they aren't really files
Mar 06 17:41:42 <muthu> right.. so need to get input stream
Mar 06 17:41:50 <muthu> then save in tmp, and play
Mar 06 17:41:51 <romainguy__> you can always put them in the assets/ directory
Mar 06 17:42:04 <muthu> then how do i refer?
Mar 06 17:42:09 <jasta> muthu: I think MediaPlayer.create from a raw resource should work.
Mar 06 17:42:23 <mike1o> jasta, romainguy http://paste.debian.net/50598
Mar 06 17:42:26 <romainguy__> muthu: using the AssetsManager
Mar 06 17:42:35 <muthu> oh ok
Mar 06 17:43:24 <muthu> jasta: i'm using the video view.. probably that method exists. i'll check
Mar 06 17:43:34 <zhobbs> yeah, you can prob play with MediaPlayer...but sometimes you want to play sounds via NotificationManager so they don't get outputted through the headphones, etc
Mar 06 17:43:50 <mike1o> jasta, no res/values/strings.xml there
Mar 06 17:52:22 <jasta> zhobbs: NotificationManager plays sounds different than MediaPlayer?
Mar 06 17:52:30 <mike1o> the unfolded mysteries of the android
Mar 06 17:52:57 <jasta> btw, i just want to say that i hope Android phones have standard headphone jacks.  I hate those silly adapters you have to buy for most smartphones :)
Mar 06 17:53:02 <zhobbs> jasta: I would assume so...I would think even if headphones are plugged in notification would alert out loud instead of through headphones
Mar 06 17:53:16 <zhobbs> used for alarm clocks, reminders, etc
Mar 06 17:53:28 <jasta> zhobbs: Are you sure?  Because then you wouldn't hear it while on the phone or listening to music?
Mar 06 17:53:50 <mike1o> jasta, totally agree with you on this one... very hard to dee jay with those
Mar 06 17:54:25 <zhobbs> jasta: def not sure, just an assumption
Mar 06 17:55:30 <zhobbs> I would think that's how the iphone works, if you have the headphones plugged in and the alarm clock goes off it doesn't alarm through the headphones right?
Mar 06 17:59:43 <mike1o> could it be in classes.dex? :)
Mar 06 18:01:46 <romainguy_> zhobbs: it does play sounds through the headphones
Mar 06 18:01:55 <romainguy_> zhobbs: I doubt I could hear the notifications otherwise
Mar 06 18:02:08 <zhobbs> romainguy_: does it play through both?
Mar 06 18:02:14 <romainguy_> just the headphones
Mar 06 18:03:25 <zhobbs> that would piss me off...I use my phone as my alarm clock and I slept through work cause I forgot to unplug headphones that would suck
Mar 06 18:03:46 <romainguy_> think about other situations
Mar 06 18:03:52 <romainguy_> for instance when I'm in the shuttle in the morning
Mar 06 18:04:14 <romainguy_> when there's someone sleeping next to me
Mar 06 18:04:21 <jasta> zhobbs: An alarm clock application could be programmed more pragmatically, however.
Mar 06 18:04:22 <romainguy_> I'm glad my notifications are played through my headphones
Mar 06 18:04:35 <zhobbs> true
Mar 06 18:04:50 <zhobbs> jasta: what you mean?
Mar 06 18:04:52 <jasta> That is, an alarm clock, if still going off 20 minutes later, could switch to become louder and start sending output to all speakers
Mar 06 18:05:11 <zhobbs> not sure if we'll have control over what speakers we output to
Mar 06 18:05:14 <jasta> Assuming the Android platform permits this level of flexibility
Mar 06 18:05:18 <zhobbs> yeah
Mar 06 18:05:32 <jasta> Well, perhaps we should mention that as a feature request.
Mar 06 18:05:43 <jasta> It does make a lot of sense for an alarm app to do everything it can to get more and more annoying.
Mar 06 18:05:49 <zhobbs> yep
Mar 06 18:05:50 <jasta> until it is shut off
Mar 06 18:06:30 <jasta> my cell phone alarm is basically unusably stupid.  it plays some annoying sound for about 20 seconds then shuts off indefinitely.
Mar 06 18:06:50 <jasta> but displays a stupid reminder on screen
Mar 06 18:07:15 <jasta> so if i knock it off my bed or something i basically miss work :)
Mar 06 18:07:31 <zhobbs> though the audio circuit might not allow software to determine if using speakers/headphone
Mar 06 18:07:31 <jasta> whereas if it just kept playing for minutes or hours, i would eventually notice and wake up
Mar 06 18:07:54 <jasta> zhobbs: Perhaps not, but that is a good thing to get someone thinking about now.
Mar 06 18:08:17 <jasta> i recommend posting a feature enhancement issue.
Mar 06 18:08:59 <zhobbs> jasta: I know on my laptop the headphone jack has a switch built into it to turn off the speaker when headphones present
Mar 06 18:09:24 <zhobbs> I know cause it's broken and it won't ever let my speakers work !! (dell sucks!)
Mar 06 18:10:06 <muthu> mostly when you switch on the headphones, the speakers shut off
Mar 06 18:20:33 <jasta> i hope someone at google is listening btw ;)
Mar 06 18:20:38 <jasta> alarm applications NEED TO BE ANNOYING :)
Mar 06 18:21:33 <jasta> i can't figure out why alarm applications for phones are not written like actual alarm clocks.  i've never tested it, but i'm pretty sure my old fashioned clock radio will shut off once it goes on.
Mar 06 18:21:39 <jasta> on its own, i mean.
Mar 06 18:22:02 <jasta> and will not*, damn, i munged that sentence :)
Mar 06 18:24:10 <muthu> is there a flowlayout?
Mar 06 18:24:39 <muthu> jasta: how do you deal with portrait/landscape neutral layouts?
Mar 06 18:25:36 <romainguy_> muthu: no flow layout
Mar 06 18:26:00 <muthu> you folks are making it difficult on us
Mar 06 18:26:14 <muthu> ;)
Mar 06 18:26:18 <romainguy_> ?
Mar 06 18:26:41 <muthu> flowlayout would have made our jobs easier
Mar 06 18:26:52 <romainguy_> I doubt it
Mar 06 18:27:14 <muthu> how do i do a neutral skin layout?
Mar 06 18:27:23 <romainguy_> with any layout
Mar 06 18:27:25 <romainguy_> or better
Mar 06 18:27:29 <romainguy_> you create two different layouts
Mar 06 18:27:44 <muthu> and how to switch?
Mar 06 18:28:42 <muthu> how to know which skin is running?
Mar 06 18:28:51 <romainguy_> muthu: it switches automatically if you put them in layout-port and layout-land
Mar 06 18:29:05 <jasta> muthu: the res/ directory structure will handle localization and layout orientations for you.
Mar 06 18:29:20 <muthu> ah ah
Mar 06 18:29:25 <muthu> hmm lot to learn
Mar 06 18:29:29 <jasta> just like you can do res/values-en/strings.xml res/values-es/strings.xml, etc.
Mar 06 18:29:50 <jasta> romainguy_: does "finger" mean that it's a touch screen?
Mar 06 18:30:23 <jasta> muthu: you can also ahve different images in res/drawable the same way.
Mar 06 18:30:34 <muthu> is it all backed up by theme?
Mar 06 18:30:46 <jasta> not by theme, but by screen properties.
Mar 06 18:30:57 <muthu> any examples?
Mar 06 18:31:01 <romainguy_> oh
Mar 06 18:31:05 <romainguy_> iPhone gets Exchange support
Mar 06 18:31:07 <jasta> your eally dont need an example.
Mar 06 18:31:19 <muthu> ok.. back to docs then
Mar 06 18:31:32 <jasta> muthu: just place your portrait layouts in layout-port and your landscape layouts in layout-land.  common layouts still in layout.
Mar 06 18:31:44 <muthu> ok great
Mar 06 18:31:57 <jasta> so you could have layout-land/some_list.xml layout-port/some_list.xml layout/some_list_item.xml
Mar 06 18:32:04 <muthu> got it
Mar 06 18:32:18 <jasta> romainguy_: really?  Will Android be licensing that? :)
Mar 06 18:32:59 <fcarvalho> romainguy, that's true ..  http://unlimitededition.wordpress.com/2008/03/06/iphone-enterprise-support-announced/
Mar 06 18:33:39 <muthu> that's a great move
Mar 06 18:34:17 * jasta points out that Microsoft is expected to release Exchange ActiveSync protocol documentation in June and has "promised" that it will not seek patent royalties from open source developers.
Mar 06 18:35:25 <jasta> but that commercial products using the code will have to pay royalties.  I wonder if we could introduce support to Android's PIM system and then get the OHA to foot the bill :)
Mar 06 18:47:18 <davidw> oh...finally.  I can't wait to finish this crap off.  Insurance company code written in 2001  :-(((
Mar 06 19:20:35 <zhobbs> iPhone SDK available today
Mar 06 19:21:15 <Bonkers> apps to users not until june though
Mar 06 19:22:03 <zhobbs> looks like you might have to have a mac to run the emulator?
Mar 06 19:22:28 * davidw waits to read the summary
Mar 06 19:23:11 <romainguy_> zhobbs: where do you see that?
Mar 06 19:24:12 <Bonkers> http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/06/live-from-apples-iphone-press-conference/
Mar 06 19:24:52 <zhobbs> Just like normal Mac applications, developers can use Xcode for their project -- a coding environment bundled with every copy of OS X. In addition to traditional Xcode tools there's a new feature called iPhone Simulator which acts as a full-on iPhone emulator for testing out apps without destroying your device.
Mar 06 19:25:08 <zhobbs> also, it costs $99 to be cool enough to download SDK
Mar 06 19:26:02 <Bonkers> well, that gets you app hosting also
Mar 06 19:26:31 <zhobbs> sourceforge or google code is free
Mar 06 19:26:40 <davidw> yeah, that's not a bad deal... they take care of all the 'store' crap for you
Mar 06 19:27:22 <Bonkers> right, for source hosting, this is app distribution with payment if you so choose to the masses with an icon right on their home screen
Mar 06 19:27:59 <zhobbs> yeah, but I can't even download the SDK without paying
Mar 06 19:28:27 <zhobbs> I'd understand pay to get listed in the store
Mar 06 19:28:44 <Bonkers> I bet it'll be free in the not so far future
Mar 06 19:29:15 <zhobbs> well...I don't have a mac so doesn't matter
Mar 06 19:30:21 <Bonkers> looks like the $99 is mostly for a certificate that you have to sign your apps with, that way they can revoke certs from malicious developers
Mar 06 19:30:49 <muthu> now android needs to step up
Mar 06 19:30:54 <muthu> it will be fun!
Mar 06 19:33:34 <Bonkers> SDK is free actually already
Mar 06 19:35:20 <Bonkers> all you need is a free apple dev account
Mar 06 19:35:48 <zhobbs> what is "ADC", it says $99 for ADC
Mar 06 19:41:09 <romainguy_> zhobbs: Apple Developer Connection
Mar 06 19:42:30 <zhobbs> There's $100E6 venture capital put aside for iPhone related companies
Mar 06 19:48:54 <Aetmos> are there any new apps in iTUnes yet?
Mar 06 19:50:09 <Aetmos> Well, developer.apple.com seems to be getting slammed
Mar 06 19:50:29 <Aetmos> http://developer.apple.com/iphone/program/ doesn't even come up...
Mar 06 19:52:56 <davidw> zhobbs, that sounds kind of empty to me
Mar 06 19:52:57 <Aetmos> Oh, nevermind. I guess we're not getting new software until "Late June" ;-(
Mar 06 19:53:10 <Aetmos> http://www.macworld.com/article/132402/2008/03/appstore.html
Mar 06 19:53:16 <Aetmos> The SDK is free, though
Mar 06 19:53:18 <davidw> no one just 'parks' that much money hoping companies materialize
Mar 06 19:55:05 <Aetmos> I wonder if it will run on my old iBook
Mar 06 19:57:44 * Lede slaps Aetmos with the android-sdk
Mar 06 19:58:09 <Aetmos> Well, I'm working with the Android SDK right now, but I have an iPod touch that I'd love some new apps/games for
Mar 06 19:58:29 <Lede> ipod touch is nice
Mar 06 19:58:47 <Aetmos> By the time they get anything out, iTouch will be old news...
Mar 06 20:10:02 <f00f-> Aetmos: install linux on it
Mar 06 20:10:27 <Aetmos> Yeah, I've considered jailbreaking it...but I figured I could wait until the February SDK
Mar 06 20:10:31 <Aetmos> Though now...
Mar 06 20:10:36 <Aetmos> Wait 'til June?
Mar 06 20:10:43 <Aetmos> Pfft
Mar 06 20:13:03 <Aetmos> Is there any way to securely send a password to a server in Android?
Mar 06 20:13:37 <davidw> Aetmos, https, if nothing else
Mar 06 20:13:58 <Aetmos> That's true. No hash algorithms built in, though? MD5 or SHA1?
Mar 06 20:17:35 <f00f-> even CRAM over unencrypted channels works
Mar 06 20:17:55 <f00f-> https is heavy for mobile
Mar 06 20:17:58 <jasta> Aetmos: I'm sure it has digest algorithms.
Mar 06 20:18:09 <zhobbs> It does
Mar 06 20:18:36 <zhobbs> jasta: what's the Unicode::String perl module called in ubuntu?
Mar 06 20:18:42 <jasta> libunicode-string-perl
Mar 06 20:18:55 <jasta> Aetmos: look at java.security.MessageDigest
Mar 06 20:19:05 <jasta> i'm pretty certain that is implemented in Android
Mar 06 20:19:07 <Aetmos> jasta: Will do. THanks
Mar 06 20:19:19 <zhobbs> transmitting MD5 password doesn't mean secure though
Mar 06 20:19:32 <Aetmos> True
Mar 06 20:20:17 <f00f-> that's why you need CRAM
Mar 06 20:20:20 <f00f-> with replay protection
Mar 06 20:20:43 <f00f-> CRAM-MD5 or CRAM-insert-your-favorite-digest-algo-here
Mar 06 20:20:56 <Aetmos> Got it. Thanks
Mar 06 20:21:11 <f00f-> if Android doesn't implement it, check out the Bouncy Castle crypto APi's
Mar 06 20:21:34 <f00f-> i've used them in a J2ME app
Mar 06 20:21:36 <zhobbs> jasta: what command you using to recursively parse those XML files with axml2xml?
Mar 06 20:21:46 <jasta> i did a combination of things
Mar 06 20:22:39 <jasta> adb shell ls /system/*.apk | while read a; do adb pull $a .; done
Mar 06 20:22:42 <jasta> to get all the apk files
Mar 06 20:22:47 <zhobbs> k
Mar 06 20:22:48 <jasta> then i unzipped them in their own folders with another script
Mar 06 20:23:35 <jasta> then i just did find -type f -name "*.xml" | while read a; do ./axml2xml.pl "$a" > "$a".out; done
Mar 06 20:23:39 <jasta> etc, you get the point :)
Mar 06 20:23:44 <zhobbs> k
Mar 06 20:25:27 <zhobbs> I never use that while read a; do [...], that's handy
Mar 06 20:26:08 <jasta> you could also do find -type f -name "*.xml" -print0 | xargs -l -i foo or find -type f -name "*.xml" -exec foo {} \;
Mar 06 20:26:31 <jasta> but neither of those is very nice for piping the output of each invocation somewhere.
Mar 06 20:27:22 <jasta> err i meant xargs -0 -l -i :)
Mar 06 20:28:03 * jasta has spent a lot of time in UNIX, as you can see :)
Mar 06 20:31:14 <f00f-> dont use print0 :)
Mar 06 20:36:49 <jasta> zhobbs: one very weird thing i encountreed while figuring out this binary XML format is that everything is in little endian, but aren't ARM processors big endian?
Mar 06 20:37:00 <jasta> So they claim it's all for efficiency and then they require a byte swap?
Mar 06 20:37:06 <jasta> That's stupid
Mar 06 20:37:20 <jasta> f00f-: Why not?
Mar 06 20:38:41 <f00f-> why use it
Mar 06 20:38:56 <jasta> because xargs doesn't operate on newlines, it operates on words
Mar 06 20:42:58 <f00f-> xargs cat will do it nicely
Mar 06 20:43:01 <f00f-> but i cant read anyone's mind
Mar 06 20:43:06 <f00f-> so i'll just be quiet
Mar 06 20:43:21 <jasta> what?  no it won't.
Mar 06 20:44:19 <jasta> f00f-: xargs operates on words, not lines.  it doesn't matter what command you specify.
Mar 06 20:44:43 <jasta> find ... | xargs ... without -print0 and -print will cause files with spaces to fail miserably.
Mar 06 20:44:52 <jasta> err -print0 and -0 :)
Mar 06 21:50:13 <jasta> i just had the most infuriating conversation of my entire life
Mar 06 21:50:37 <jasta> if i wasn't on a teleconference i probably would have reached across the table and choked the guy i was talking to
Mar 06 21:54:38 <jasta> some retard engineering director that probably hasn't written code since his hello world college days 15 years ago.
Mar 06 22:05:56 <davidw> "The social dynamics of the net are a direct consequence of the fact that nobody has yet developed a Remote Strangulation Protocol." - Larry Wall
Mar 06 22:08:11 <zhobbs> that's my idea for the ADC
Mar 06 22:08:55 <jasta> that reminds me of a bash.org quote
Mar 06 22:09:16 <Aetmos> Not true! http://search.cpan.org/~tstanley/Acme-Remote-Strangulation-Protocol-0.03/
Mar 06 22:10:26 <Aetmos> You can find anything in CPAN
Mar 06 22:12:16 <davidw> Aetmos, well, it probably requires hardware that most people don't install
Mar 06 22:13:13 <Aetmos> You don't have a plug-n-play remote strangulation device installed?
Mar 06 22:18:44 * Aetmos accidentally triggers remote strangulation device, falls off chair
Mar 06 22:22:16 <Aetmos> Does anybody happen to know what the transparent EditText states are used for/
Mar 06 22:22:48 <Aetmos> (imagine that ended with a "?" rather than a "/")
Mar 06 22:23:04 <romainguy_> a view shown as translucent is disabled
Mar 06 22:23:15 <Aetmos> ah
Mar 06 22:23:16 <Aetmos> thanks
Mar 06 23:10:12 <davidw> anyone tried to play .wav files from the resources?
Mar 06 23:23:30 <chaosvoyager> No, will it be painful to try?
Mar 07 00:12:39 <eighty> quick q: how does IntentReceiver connect to a Service after calling Context.startService()?
Mar 07 01:03:47 <jmhodges> hey, i saw a mention of this in the docs, but can't find it.  how do you set eclipse to run your project as an Android application by default, without having to select the application type/
Mar 07 01:04:01 <f00f-> i forgot, must be the run dialog
Mar 07 01:04:08 <zhobbs> jmhodges: I've been wondering the same thing...
Mar 07 01:04:20 <jmhodges> zhobbs: hah
Mar 07 01:04:25 <jmhodges> f00f-: i cant' find it in there
Mar 07 01:04:34 <jmhodges> just the list of the options. no option to set a default
Mar 07 01:13:48 <f00f-> just click the play button
Mar 07 01:13:49 <f00f-> and hit enter
Mar 07 01:14:07 <f00f-> this is an eclipse question
Mar 07 01:14:10 <f00f-> try #eclipse
Mar 07 01:51:19 <morrildl> heh heh heh
Mar 07 01:51:37 <zhobbs> you laughing at apple?
Mar 07 02:12:02 <morrildl> zhobbs: I am laughing.
Mar 07 02:12:28 <morrildl> "Do you bite your thumb at me, sir?" "No, sir, but I do bite my thumb!"
Mar 07 02:12:37 <morrildl> ;)
Mar 07 02:12:44 <zhobbs> :)
Mar 07 02:12:49 <morrildl> Actually I am just excited
Mar 07 02:12:54 <morrildl> Going to be a very very interesting year
Mar 07 02:13:02 <zhobbs> yes it will
Mar 07 05:48:22 <Aetmo1> Hey, just saw this binary XML file reader / dump: http://devtcg.blogspot.com/2008/03/tool-to-read-android-binary-xml-files.html
Mar 07 06:06:09 <jasta> Aetmos: i wrote thattttt.
Mar 07 06:06:11 <jasta> that* :)
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Mar 07 07:14:35 <duey> dirty perl hacker jas
Mar 07 07:14:38 <duey> jasta,
Mar 07 07:15:06 <duey> goto :|
Mar 07 07:34:10 <thedaniel`> anyone ever run into org.eclipse.core.runtime.CoreException: Plug-in com.android.ide.eclipse.editors was unable to load class com.android.ide.eclipse.editors.manifest.ManifestSourceViewerConfig.
Mar 07 07:34:15 <thedaniel`> ?
Mar 07 07:38:45 <thedaniel`> nvm, eclipse -clean solved it
Mar 07 07:39:27 <jasta> duey: meh.
Mar 07 07:39:50 <jasta> blame their weird format, i didn't see that part coming :)
Mar 07 07:39:54 <jasta> so, didn't design around it
Mar 07 07:40:06 <romainguy__> who cares
Mar 07 07:40:07 <romainguy__> it works
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