**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 08 10:59:56 2008
Mar 08 16:18:02 <chomchom> Woo yeah! Go Android! Hi Everybody!
Mar 08 16:20:44 <chomchom> I bet the Iphone SDK has featured in conversation quite a bit in the past few days. It's really good news! We're going to see a whole lot of attention on mobile apps in the next year or two. Pretty exciting stuff.
Mar 08 16:43:10 <davidw> hi chomchom
Mar 08 16:45:21 <chomchom> hello, Maybe the admins could set the IRC topic to be an Android blog post by someone in the community every day. That would be a bit more interesting, or even an interesting forum post.
Mar 08 16:56:58 <kurzum> discuss :D
Mar 08 16:59:28 <chomchom> It would also give people who might not be crawling blogs and rss feeds everyday some exposure to new sources of android info.
Mar 08 17:16:10 <davidw> chomchom, talk with morrildl about it
Mar 08 19:14:57 <chomchom> I'm trying to run the vanilla junit tests in m5, I see there is a bug listed in the tracker but is there a workaround?
Mar 08 19:15:47 <chomchom> via eclipse
Mar 08 20:05:52 <chaosvoyager> (* looks at topic *) 0_0
Mar 08 20:06:39 <chaosvoyager> Gaa...why even open that door?
Mar 08 20:59:29 <chaosvoyager> So... anyone play around with the iPhone SDK?
Mar 08 21:06:52 <Garett> any word on when the reverse geocoder will actually work?
Mar 08 21:27:20 <davidw> hrm
Mar 08 21:27:26 <davidw> hrm hrm hrm hrm hrm hrm hrm
Mar 08 21:27:56 <chaosvoyager> (* ponder *)
Mar 08 21:35:22 <davidw> I miss getResourceAsStream
Mar 08 21:35:54 <chaosvoyager> 0_o
Mar 08 21:36:39 <chaosvoyager> Android seems to want to keep Resource access to itsefl.
Mar 08 21:45:24 <davidw> yes... that's annoying
Mar 08 21:55:48 <chaosvoyager> Maybe they want to isolate access to it because they're not sure what the final format will be.
Mar 08 22:10:36 <davidw> *hah*
Mar 08 22:10:53 <davidw> ZipFile works with the apk file itself
Mar 08 22:11:05 <davidw> now... I need a way to be sure of the name
Mar 08 22:11:54 <chaosvoyager> Why are you delving into the apk file so intently?
Mar 08 22:13:35 <davidw> I want to be able to update it dynamically, without all the BS of going through compiling the resources
Mar 08 22:15:26 <chaosvoyager> :)
Mar 08 22:16:00 <chaosvoyager> Same here, but I don't think it's in the 'Android Plan'.
Mar 08 22:16:30 <chaosvoyager> I suspect you'll get lots of 'not recommend' comments.
Mar 08 22:16:50 <davidw> why do you need that?
Mar 08 22:17:13 <romainguy> chaosvoyager: Well, the implications of applications being able to modify .apk can be scary
Mar 08 22:17:14 <chaosvoyager> Eh, you mean for dynamically updating the resources and layout?
Mar 08 22:17:40 <davidw> romainguy, not modify, just read
Mar 08 22:17:49 <romainguy> ah ok
Mar 08 22:17:57 <romainguy> I suppose ZipFile should be enough then
Mar 08 22:18:01 <davidw> I can understand not modifying them just fine
Mar 08 22:18:02 <romainguy> an .apk is just a zip
Mar 08 22:18:28 <chomchom> is it?! like a jar. I never even knew that.
Mar 08 22:18:29 <davidw> romainguy, know how to get, say, /data/Foo.apk out of the Context or Activity or whatever?  argv[0] as it were...
Mar 08 22:18:34 <davidw> chomchom, yeah
Mar 08 22:18:41 <romainguy> davidw: ah ok I see
Mar 08 22:18:49 <romainguy> davidw: I guess you don't for know :))
Mar 08 22:18:52 <romainguy> now
Mar 08 22:18:57 <chaosvoyager> davidw: What did you mean by 'update it dynamically' then?
Mar 08 22:19:26 <davidw> I just mean that the user, on their computer, can add stuff to the .apk as if it were a .zip file without also doing the compile step
Mar 08 22:20:00 <chaosvoyager> Ah.
Mar 08 22:20:10 <davidw> I could put a .zip in the .zip and play with that, but that's ugly
Mar 08 22:20:18 <davidw> Imean a .zip in /res/raw
Mar 08 22:23:51 <chaosvoyager> I hate to be a party pooper, but you still need to compile the actual resources into a binary format, don't you?
Mar 08 22:25:45 <davidw> it doesn't touch the stuff in raw
Mar 08 22:26:00 <chaosvoyager> Ah.
Mar 08 22:28:53 <chaosvoyager> Are you doing this to speed up development, or to provide a runtime feature to the end user?
Mar 08 22:31:56 <davidw> ease of development for the end user
Mar 08 22:31:58 <davidw> it's for Hecl
Mar 08 22:32:13 <davidw> I already have a java thing that generates a new .apk more or less automatically
Mar 08 22:32:27 <chaosvoyager> :O
Mar 08 22:32:34 <chaosvoyager> Hecl? ROCK!
Mar 08 22:37:04 <chomchom> So have you aiming to have the equivalent of a CI android build?
Mar 08 22:38:08 <davidw> ?
Mar 08 22:41:36 <chomchom> davidw: Sorry maybe I didn't get you but if you have a script written in Hecl updating your deployed package you'll get instant feedback, I guess it will just be for raw stuff though.
Mar 08 22:42:28 <davidw> it can't updated the deployed package
Mar 08 22:42:28 <chomchom> I've never saw a Hecl app before, just wonder what you are up to with it.
Mar 08 22:42:44 <davidw> well, making it possible to write Android apps with it
Mar 08 22:43:48 <chomchom> What advantages would Hecl offer? Apart from a little independence from the android platform?
Mar 08 22:46:46 <davidw> quicker and easier to develop with compared to Java
Mar 08 22:46:52 <davidw> it's dynamic, too
Mar 08 22:47:06 <davidw> meaning you can download scripts or create new ones on the fly
Mar 08 22:47:52 <davidw> sort of the same reason people use ruby or python or php or whatever instead of Java
Mar 08 22:49:04 <zhobbs> hecl will be cool, write up little scripts on your phone
Mar 08 22:49:27 <davidw> well, or beforehand... actually writing them on the phone might be painful
Mar 08 22:49:34 <jasta> i bet someone will port Perl and Python :)
Mar 08 22:49:45 <jasta> and write robust bindings for them
Mar 08 22:49:50 <davidw> yeah, when the source comes out, all that stuff will too
Mar 08 22:55:56 <davidw> 	    String filename = this.getPackageManager().getApplicationInfo("org.hecl.android", 0).sourceDir;
Mar 08 22:56:01 <davidw> he shoots, he scores:-)
Mar 08 22:56:30 <chaosvoyager> How do I specify which intent listener takes precedence in responding to a broadcast?
Mar 08 22:56:51 <zhobbs> chaosvoyager: I think with broadcasted ones they all get it
Mar 08 22:57:25 <zhobbs> chaosvoyager: with startActivity(Intent) I think the user will be prompted if there are mutliple actions avalable
Mar 08 22:58:13 <chaosvoyager> Really?
Mar 08 22:58:19 <jasta> i sort of doubt that
Mar 08 22:58:29 <jasta> perhaps prompted at the time of install
Mar 08 22:58:44 <davidw> that would make sense
Mar 08 22:59:35 <zhobbs> jasta: I've seen the "Multiple actions available" dialog in a google demo video
Mar 08 22:59:55 <jasta> really? where?
Mar 08 23:00:20 <zhobbs> at that show in barcelona I think
Mar 08 23:00:23 <zhobbs> lemme look
Mar 08 23:01:48 <davidw> so... it's not possible to install new apps via the web yet is it
Mar 08 23:01:55 <davidw> hrm hrm hrm
Mar 08 23:01:56 <jasta> not yet
Mar 08 23:02:16 <zhobbs> yeah, webkit doesn't seem to want to handle any filetypes
Mar 08 23:06:15 <zhobbs> jasta: 3rd video about 30 secs there is a dialog "Intent availability..", can't tell if that's part of the app or standard: http://www.helloandroid.com/node/255
Mar 08 23:06:34 <davidw> how about PackageManager installPackage ?
Mar 08 23:06:37 <davidw> tried that guys?
Mar 08 23:06:45 <zhobbs> I did with M3, doesn't work very well
Mar 08 23:06:59 <zhobbs> doesn't work at all unless you install the app into /system/app
Mar 08 23:07:07 <davidw> oh... well that's useless
Mar 08 23:07:24 <jasta> new packages are installed by simply placing them in /data/app.  they're using inotify on that directory.
Mar 08 23:08:04 <davidw> I'm curious about doing it programmatically, giving, of course, the user the chance to say yes or no
Mar 08 23:08:12 <davidw> not really a necessity at this point... just curious
Mar 08 23:09:52 <zhobbs> I'm planning on creating a PackageManager app after the challenge
Mar 08 23:10:20 <zhobbs> one that will interface with hello android's applications section (going to have to totally rework that also)
Mar 08 23:11:02 <zhobbs> or maybe someone will make a good one for the challenge and I'll just use that
Mar 08 23:11:18 <jasta> i have that goal as well
Mar 08 23:11:36 <jasta> perhaps we should do it jointly?
Mar 08 23:11:45 <chaosvoyager> Google should have had that goal to begin with.
Mar 08 23:11:49 <zhobbs> yeah, definitely
Mar 08 23:12:06 <zhobbs> jasta: yeah we should collaborate
Mar 08 23:12:28 <davidw> the apple store thing for iphone apps isn't a bad thing
Mar 08 23:12:56 <davidw> for the end user, something like that is a lot less stressful than looking at some shoddy junky site for shoddy junky apps
Mar 08 23:13:14 <zhobbs> davidw: is that on the computer or on the phone?
Mar 08 23:13:53 <jasta> solves Android's security problem nicely as well.  if most folks get all their apps from a single set of mirrored repositories, there is no need to consider if you trust each app.
Mar 08 23:13:57 <jasta> you need only trust the repository.
Mar 08 23:15:55 <chaosvoyager> Is there a simple Android GTalk example somewhere?
Mar 08 23:16:05 <jasta> other than in the apidemos?
Mar 08 23:17:13 <dragor43> i think there's a gtalk program on davanum's blog
Mar 08 23:17:37 <dragor43> http://davanum.wordpress.com/2007/11/23/totally-unofficial-android-gtalk-client-sendreceive-xmpp-messages/
Mar 08 23:17:49 <dragor43> it's for M3 so you're need to change some stuff
Mar 08 23:17:53 <dragor43> you'll*
Mar 08 23:18:02 <davidw> Hecl has some gtalk stuff too:->
Mar 08 23:18:03 <chaosvoyager> Yeah, it was the first thing up on a search.
Mar 08 23:18:15 <chaosvoyager> er, the blog that is.
Mar 08 23:19:07 <davidw> http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2008/02/10/seathreepo-android-translator
Mar 08 23:19:24 <davidw> you could play with updating that if you feel like playing with the code:-)
Mar 08 23:19:45 <zhobbs> davidw: do you have a site with the hecl stuff?
Mar 08 23:20:00 <davidw> www.hecl.org - the code is all in subversion
Mar 08 23:21:15 <davidw> sleep time for me...later
Mar 08 23:21:27 <zhobbs> cya
Mar 08 23:21:32 <chomchom> goodnight
Mar 08 23:33:02 <jasta> davidw: that translator thing would be really great if you paired it with a powerful OCR tool
Mar 08 23:33:14 <jasta> so you could snap a picture of something you can't read and have it translate for you
Mar 08 23:41:21 <zhobbs> yeah, we need OCR for the camera
Mar 08 23:42:42 <zhobbs> looks like all the ocr java libs are commercial
Mar 08 23:42:56 <jasta> there's a GNU OCR tool but i do not know how good it is.
Mar 08 23:43:24 <jasta> it would be easy to use in Android
Mar 08 23:43:42 <jasta> zhobbs: Remember, we are not actually limited to native Java code :)
Mar 08 23:43:54 <zhobbs> that's true
Mar 08 23:44:00 <zhobbs> after april 14
Mar 08 23:44:36 <zhobbs> I'm tired of the emulator...I need a phone!
Mar 08 23:45:07 <jasta> and then you'll just get tired of your phone
Mar 08 23:45:08 <jasta> and want a real android
Mar 08 23:45:28 <zhobbs> that would be nice because I'm hungry
Mar 08 23:45:43 <zhobbs> it could whip something up in the kitchen
Mar 08 23:46:25 <jasta> i thought you wanted to eat it
Mar 08 23:46:48 <zhobbs> heh
Mar 08 23:48:33 <zhobbs> looks like tesseract is a pretty good open source ocr
Mar 08 23:49:07 <zhobbs> google looks like they contribute to it a lot
Mar 08 23:49:34 <jasta> interesting
Mar 08 23:56:26 <jasta> zhobbs: that would really be a very useful project.
Mar 08 23:56:34 <jasta> especially for folks traveling around Europ
Mar 08 23:56:34 <jasta> e
Mar 08 23:56:47 <jasta> combine it with babelfish
Mar 09 00:09:59 <romainguy> re'
Mar 09 00:37:36 <chaosvoyager> Isn't Google adding OCR to its image indexing?
Mar 09 00:48:17 <duey> <jasta> davidw: that translator thing would be really great if you paired it with a powerful OCR tool
Mar 09 00:48:17 <duey> <jasta> so you could snap a picture of something you can't read and have it translate for you
Mar 09 00:48:20 <duey> ^ thats my project
Mar 09 00:49:36 <duey> "Photo Based Optical Character Recognition and Translation on Mobile\ Devices"
Mar 09 00:50:47 <morrildl> What's up, folk?
Mar 09 00:51:06 <chomchom> nought but the rent
Mar 09 00:51:14 <morrildl> chomchom: Hmm, indeed.
Mar 09 00:52:18 <chomchom> morrildl: I was saying earlier maybe the admins could set the IRC topic to be an Android blog post by someone in the community every day. That would be a bit more interesting, or even an interesting forum post.
Mar 09 00:52:22 * duey is stabbing latex
Mar 09 00:52:35 <morrildl> chomchom: Hmm, very interesting idea
Mar 09 00:52:38 <chomchom> It would also give people who might not be crawling blogs and rss feeds everyday some exposure to new sources of android info.
Mar 09 00:53:07 <morrildl> As it happens, I was just reading my blog subscriptions
Mar 09 00:53:37 <morrildl> Let's start with...
Mar 09 00:54:14 <chomchom> lol
Mar 09 00:54:20 <duey> lol
Mar 09 00:54:34 <chomchom> inventive.
Mar 09 00:54:40 <morrildl> We'll start off "light" :)
Mar 09 00:54:51 <duey> first 3 posts on that are iphone
Mar 09 00:54:56 <morrildl> and I'll add some interesting specific posts in the future
Mar 09 00:55:07 <morrildl> duey: indeed.  But it's news, and it's relevant
Mar 09 00:55:12 <morrildl> we got nothing to hide :)
Mar 09 00:55:13 <duey> true
Mar 09 00:55:27 <morrildl> If iPhone kicks our ass, we have no one to blame but ourselves ;)
Mar 09 00:55:38 <chaosvoyager> well...
Mar 09 00:55:45 <chomchom> yeah, that will be pretty good. We've had the address of the SDK for months now.
Mar 09 00:56:12 <morrildl> chomchom: heh, yeah I'm guessing you guys can probably recite it by memory now
Mar 09 00:56:43 <morrildl> duey: I do have to ask:  latex?
Mar 09 00:56:55 <duey> honours proposals
Mar 09 00:57:12 <duey> trying to perform the basic task of centering text
Mar 09 00:57:21 <morrildl> ohhhh
Mar 09 00:57:21 <duey> yet it creates a new page
Mar 09 00:57:23 <morrildl> THAT latex
Mar 09 00:57:30 <morrildl> You have my condolences
Mar 09 00:57:51 <morrildl> latex is one of those things that is at once delightful and infuriating
Mar 09 00:58:34 <duey> yeah
Mar 09 00:58:55 <duey> totoally awesome and totally awful at the same time
Mar 09 00:59:00 <duey> very unique!
Mar 09 00:59:21 <morrildl> :)
Mar 09 01:01:36 * morrildl wishes planetandroid would syndicate HIS feed faster ;)
Mar 09 01:03:30 <morrildl> oh, there it is.  Yay! Now I get to be internet-famous for the next 170 nanoseconds
Mar 09 01:05:17 <duey> haha
Mar 09 01:12:18 <chaosvoyager> I've heard there are people who won't take you seriously if you don't use TeX.
Mar 09 01:12:31 <duey> we can use word/tex
Mar 09 01:12:47 <duey> but they said word slows down at 50 pages
Mar 09 01:13:01 <duey> titlepage is done :D
Mar 09 01:13:02 <chaosvoyager> I'm talking about other academics.
Mar 09 01:13:11 <duey> yeah
Mar 09 01:13:17 <chaosvoyager> Geesh, slows down at fifty :P
Mar 09 01:13:44 <duey> tex does a good job at formatting nicely
Mar 09 01:17:12 <chaosvoyager> duey: I think you should do the OCR and translation on a server if possible. It would be faster, have better libraries available, and wouldn't kill the battery as quickly. Not only that, but you'd have a service other devices besides Android could use.
Mar 09 01:17:27 <duey> doing both
Mar 09 01:17:51 <chaosvoyager> Cool.
Mar 09 01:18:09 <duey> there are a few technical issues to sort out
Mar 09 01:18:15 <duey> initial versions are server based
Mar 09 01:18:27 <duey> there is also an issue with camera quality
Mar 09 01:19:14 <duey> its my honours project - so ultimately I have to create my own ocr lib
Mar 09 01:19:21 <duey> which works better on photos
Mar 09 01:19:33 <duey> tesseract for example doesn't work on photos
Mar 09 01:19:47 <duey> and requires high dpi images (200+)
Mar 09 01:19:56 <chaosvoyager> 0_o
Mar 09 01:19:59 <chaosvoyager> geesh.
Mar 09 01:20:22 <duey> so you have to take a more generalised feature based approach
Mar 09 01:20:53 <morrildl> wow
Mar 09 01:20:56 <duey> and of cource pre processing on the images
Mar 09 01:21:01 <duey> to remove crap
Mar 09 01:21:08 <morrildl> are you saying that you are OCR-ing images and translating them to TeX?
Mar 09 01:21:16 <duey> no
Mar 09 01:21:28 <duey> Photo Based Optical Character Recognition and Translation on Mobile Devices
Mar 09 01:21:34 <morrildl> ahh
Mar 09 01:21:39 <morrildl> still, very cool :)
Mar 09 01:21:42 <morrildl> hmm
Mar 09 01:21:45 <duey> yeah
Mar 09 01:21:49 <morrildl> I want your library, then we could use it with WikiNotes
Mar 09 01:21:59 <duey> haha
Mar 09 01:22:04 <duey> we will see
Mar 09 01:22:07 <morrildl> I'm serious though
Mar 09 01:22:10 <morrildl> OCR in a doc
Mar 09 01:22:13 <morrildl> store it
Mar 09 01:22:14 <duey> yeah
Mar 09 01:22:17 <chaosvoyager> There's no reason it COULDN'T be applied to TeX eventually.
Mar 09 01:22:18 <morrildl> link to it
Mar 09 01:22:19 <morrildl> etc.
Mar 09 01:22:24 <morrildl> heh
Mar 09 01:22:35 <morrildl> wiki is like the retarded inbred fourth cousin of TeX
Mar 09 01:22:41 <duey> haha
Mar 09 01:23:00 <morrildl> at least, as publication standards go
Mar 09 01:23:14 <chaosvoyager> I envision a day when computers will replace TAs as our main source of college grading :P
Mar 09 01:23:23 <duey> im doing a course at uni where we have to write wiki articles
Mar 09 01:24:13 <duey> morrildl, depending on how good it is i will open source it
Mar 09 01:31:04 <morrildl> duey: very cool
Mar 09 01:31:28 <duey> got awhile to go
Mar 09 01:31:41 <duey> working project required in august so..
Mar 09 01:31:45 <duey> busy few months!
Mar 09 01:32:56 <chaosvoyager> (* throws some Salvador Dali paintings into a facial recognition engine *)
Mar 09 01:33:56 <duey> someone should make a "Smile" app whichs takes a pic when someone smiles
Mar 09 01:33:59 <duey> like those cameras
Mar 09 01:53:22 <morrildl> there are a lot of peeps on this challen who never seem to say anything :)
Mar 09 01:53:33 <morrildl> ^challen^channel
Mar 09 01:53:55 <jasta> that's not unlike other irc channels
Mar 09 01:54:04 <morrildl> Indeed not
Mar 09 01:54:14 <morrildl> But I do wonder what they are up to
Mar 09 01:54:15 <chaosvoyager> They're busy coding :)
Mar 09 01:54:26 <morrildl> chaosvoyager: haha, they must be
Mar 09 01:54:36 <jasta> whois some of them.  i bet theyre in LOTS of channels ;)
Mar 09 01:54:40 <morrildl> They are probably absorbing info like a sponge, judging the rest of us ;)
Mar 09 01:56:36 <chaosvoyager> It's like a submarine.
Mar 09 01:56:59 <morrildl> O RLY
Mar 09 01:57:05 <jasta> morrildl: is there some way to combine multiple apks into a single distributable package?
Mar 09 01:57:27 <morrildl> jasta: you may certainly have as many Services/Activities/ContentProviders/etc. in a single apk as you like
Mar 09 01:57:37 <jasta> morrildl: Yes, but I still want multiple apks.
Mar 09 01:57:46 <morrildl> if you are asking if there is a tool to physically merge 2 .apk files, I don't believe there is currently
Mar 09 01:58:02 <jasta> I am more interested in a way to install multiple in a series.
Mar 09 01:58:07 <morrildl> hmm
Mar 09 01:58:34 <morrildl> the package manager does not currently have a notion of dependencies, because we think it's too early to presume we know how that should work
Mar 09 01:58:36 <jasta> I have split my project into multiple apks because I intend to have an engine and user interface components that utilize the engine.  The relationship is such that the engine is generalized and can serve lots of different sorts of applications.
Mar 09 01:58:41 <jasta> Not unlike, for example, your gtalkservice apk.
Mar 09 01:58:48 <morrildl> fair enough
Mar 09 01:59:12 <morrildl> so, you can install 2 apks into the same user ID
Mar 09 01:59:22 <jasta> so the engine, for example, is just a simple Activity to manage stuff, and a robust ContentProvider and set of services.
Mar 09 01:59:33 <jasta> they don't need to be the same user ID, in fact, I don't want them to be.
Mar 09 01:59:47 <morrildl> okay
Mar 09 01:59:49 <jasta> i just want them to not have to be installed separately by the user for my distribution.
Mar 09 01:59:58 <morrildl> interesting point
Mar 09 02:00:08 <morrildl> anyway no, I don't think that's currently possible
Mar 09 02:00:16 <morrildl> that would make a great feature request tho
Mar 09 02:00:31 <jasta> This is not unlike the way Google manages their own stuff.  It is clear that you split logical services and content providers from the things that might use them.
Mar 09 02:00:36 <morrildl> yup
Mar 09 02:00:46 <morrildl> our advantage is that so far we can just include them all in the system image :)
Mar 09 02:00:59 <morrildl> I actually really like this idea
Mar 09 02:01:01 <jasta> The idea here is that someone might make a type of application using my engine that I have not.  In fact, I plan on it.  I am implementing only the music portion myself.
Mar 09 02:01:10 <morrildl> the lack of dependencies in the package manager has been bugging me
Mar 09 02:01:32 <morrildl> yeah
Mar 09 02:01:35 <morrildl> makes perfect sense
Mar 09 02:01:37 <jasta> However, for my music portion, I want to be able to optionally distribute it *with* the engine.  Since I wrote both.
Mar 09 02:01:45 <morrildl> that's exactly how we want people to use the system
Mar 09 02:02:40 <jasta> yes, i assumed as much and this is why i split them up early on.
Mar 09 02:03:34 <jasta> also, i wanted to enforce this strong separation in my code.  I can't "cheat" and use functionality not available to other developers using my engine.
Mar 09 02:03:48 <jasta> since they are two separate apks, with different user ids.
Mar 09 02:04:04 <chaosvoyager> That's the thing that bugs me the most about Android's current state: You can't seem to use it in the way it was intended.
Mar 09 02:04:27 <jasta> chaosvoyager: How so?  I have demonstrated precisely that.
Mar 09 02:04:47 <jasta> The only thing that is lacking is a sufficiently clever package manager to understand how to install this stuff and potentially resolve dependencies.
Mar 09 02:04:49 <chaosvoyager> You demonstrated that it wasn't possible and the feature is missing.
Mar 09 02:04:55 <jasta> chaosvoyager: No I didn't.
Mar 09 02:04:58 <chaosvoyager> Exactly.
Mar 09 02:05:11 <jasta> I demonstrated that it requires adb install to run twice, not once.  That's a pretty small deficiency in the grand scheme of this design.
Mar 09 02:05:12 <morrildl> well, there's a lack of dependencies, to be sure
Mar 09 02:05:38 <morrildl> you can still ship 2 apks, you just have to tell your users to install them both, which is a slight increase in your support burden
Mar 09 02:06:07 <jasta> morrildl: btw, this is how i will be doing it for the ADC.  so hopefully judges will not scoff at my correct utilization of the platform :)
Mar 09 02:06:51 <morrildl> hmm
Mar 09 02:07:06 <jasta> hmm is right ;)
Mar 09 02:07:13 <chaosvoyager> I cannot see how that can be considered a small deficiency.
Mar 09 02:07:30 <jasta> chaosvoyager: Because it is not built into the design.  It is simply a missing feature.
Mar 09 02:07:50 <jasta> If the deficiency were fundamental to the way Android is expected to work, then I would call it significant.
Mar 09 02:08:04 <morrildl> for the ADC you may want to merge them.  I'm not yet sure you want to
Mar 09 02:08:04 <morrildl> doh, sorry
Mar 09 02:08:06 <jasta> Instead of a small oversight that can be easily remedied with some careful consideration.
Mar 09 02:08:18 <jasta> morrildl: What?
Mar 09 02:08:19 <morrildl> I'm not yet sure that they will be able to "grok" a dependency in APKs
Mar 09 02:08:47 <jasta> I think my application sort of destroys a lot of simple assumptions the judges want to make.
Mar 09 02:08:54 <morrildl> So in other words:  in your supporting doc, explain what it is you've provided.  But for the apk itself, it's probably best to merge them
Mar 09 02:09:02 <jasta> Because it is not trivial, like Google assumed ;)
Mar 09 02:09:04 <morrildl> jasta: yeah -- so also email me directly about it once you have submitted it
Mar 09 02:09:35 <jasta> Noted.
Mar 09 02:09:39 <morrildl> and I will make sure we ourselves do what we can to make sure it gets reviewed correctly
Mar 09 02:09:46 <morrildl> (which, BTW, goes for anyone else listening to ;))
Mar 09 02:09:55 <morrildl> chaosvoyager: What specifically are you referring to?
Mar 09 02:10:14 <jasta> morrildl: I appreciate that attention.  I am making a note of it in my calendar ;)
Mar 09 02:10:16 <morrildl> chaosvoyager: is the deficiency that you can't merge APKs, or that there is no dependency-trakcing?
Mar 09 02:12:33 <morrildl> jasta: np
Mar 09 02:15:49 <chaosvoyager> Whatever allows you to deploy a complete application in the simplest manner possible. I don't know if merging APKs, traditional dependency checking, or even just an install script, are the right solutions, but some kind of whole application management is needed.
Mar 09 02:16:13 <morrildl> chaosvoyager: well, you can always just include everything in a single apk, too
Mar 09 02:16:35 <morrildl> also, we don't know which is the right solution either, yet :)
Mar 09 02:16:43 <jasta> hey romain
Mar 09 02:16:49 <chaosvoyager> Unless you don't have rights to distribute one of the dependents.
Mar 09 02:17:01 <morrildl> which is why we've chosen to start modestly, and figure out what the right thing is later once we see how people are using it
Mar 09 02:17:07 <chaosvoyager> morrildl: fair enough.
Mar 09 02:17:18 <morrildl> It's definitely a missing feature
Mar 09 02:17:28 <morrildl> we just aren't sure what the right solution is yet
Mar 09 02:17:51 <morrildl> what's up, romainguy_?
Mar 09 02:19:09 <chaosvoyager> But it would be far less frustrating if these portions of Android were open so these feature experiments could be tested as opposed to just proposed.
Mar 09 02:19:36 <chaosvoyager> Thats all.
Mar 09 02:21:38 <chaosvoyager> Hey, does anyone know if Android is in any way related to Hiker beyond them both being the results of Palm imploding?
Mar 09 02:22:12 <morrildl> what is Hiker?
Mar 09 02:22:48 <chaosvoyager> http://www.hikerproject.org/
Mar 09 02:23:13 <chaosvoyager> Happened upon it while searching for info on OpenBind.
Mar 09 02:23:23 <morrildl> huh
Mar 09 02:23:28 <morrildl> never seen that before
Mar 09 02:23:44 <duey> poor palm :o(
Mar 09 02:23:55 <jasta> palm is useless :)
Mar 09 02:24:28 <morrildl> They refer to ACCESS, so I'd say your hypothesis about the relationship to Palm is a reasonable one
Mar 09 02:24:30 <chaosvoyager> Schrew Palm, they mismanaged themselves inot oblivion, taking a lot of good code with them.
Mar 09 02:24:55 <chaosvoyager> It's the framework similarities that intrigue me.
Mar 09 02:27:11 <morrildl> A lot of proprietary blue in their layer cake though
Mar 09 02:27:34 <morrildl> heh, though I suppose right now all of the Android layer cake would be in that blue :)
Mar 09 02:30:11 <chaosvoyager> Eh, mostly application things so I.... (* squint *) WTF...HotSync is a trademark?!?
Mar 09 02:30:32 <chaosvoyager> That doesn't surprise me, but it makes talking about it a lot more difficult now.
Mar 09 02:30:39 <morrildl> wow
Mar 09 02:30:55 <morrildl> use a hyphen, I guess? :)
Mar 09 02:31:07 <morrildl> "I hot-synced this and that using HotSync(TM) Technology"
Mar 09 02:31:22 <chaosvoyager> *sigh*
Mar 09 02:35:46 <chaosvoyager> Trademarks are powerful little glyphs. It was a trademark suit that prevented MS from extending Java and netting Sun 2bil in damages. That's why I'm using trademarks to protect my code, not copyright. I'd use patents, but they're just too damn expensive, and I'm really just concerned about maintaining compatibility.
Mar 09 02:36:18 <morrildl> chaosvoyager: interesting
Mar 09 02:37:06 <chaosvoyager> Regrettably, I had to study this shit to safely develop software.
Mar 09 02:37:52 * morrildl once summarized open source licenses as "ALL YOUR BASE"
Mar 09 02:38:51 <morrildl> GNU General Public License: ALL YOUR SOURCE ARE BELONG TO EVERYONE
Mar 09 02:38:52 <chaosvoyager> What REALLY pisses me off is that you have to remain ignorant of certain source and patents if you're developing similar tech, because if you DO know of them, then the court can find you doubly liable, and even of willfully infringment. >_<
Mar 09 02:38:57 <jasta> So, when is the Seattle code day?
Mar 09 02:39:01 <jasta> I'm feeling left out :)
Mar 09 02:39:04 <chaosvoyager> morrildl: heh.
Mar 09 02:39:15 <morrildl> GNU Lesser General Public License:  ALL OUR SOURCE ARE BELONG TO EVERYONE
Mar 09 02:39:27 <morrildl> Mozilla PL: ALL OUR SOURCE ARE BELONG TO US
Mar 09 02:39:39 <morrildl> BSD/MIT: ALL OUR SOURCE ARE BELONG TO YOU
Mar 09 02:39:55 <morrildl> Microsoft End User License Agreement (EULA): YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO DECIDE MAKE YOUR PAYMENT
Mar 09 02:40:10 <morrildl> AT&T/SCO Unix license: ALL YOUR SOURCE ARE BELONG TO US
Mar 09 02:40:45 <jasta> my only question is: who set us up the bomb?
Mar 09 02:40:50 <morrildl> jasta: yeah I am sad we coudln't do Seattle in the last round :(
Mar 09 02:41:01 <jasta> morrildl: the "round" is already over?
Mar 09 02:41:05 <morrildl> Seattle is my third-favorite city after San Francisco and Boston
Mar 09 02:41:09 <chaosvoyager> Elua needs to be made a video game heroine or villianess :P
Mar 09 02:41:14 <morrildl> well, since we haven't done anything in a while, I'd say so :)
Mar 09 02:41:22 <jasta> morrildl: San Francisco is stupid.  Boston is stupid.  Come to Seattle :)
Mar 09 02:41:28 <morrildl> hahahaha
Mar 09 02:41:48 <chaosvoyager> Come to Seattle, we're closer to Canada.
Mar 09 02:41:52 <duey> seattle is stupid too
Mar 09 02:41:54 <duey> come to new zealand
Mar 09 02:41:57 <morrildl> I used to like the Seattle track in Gran Turismo
Mar 09 02:42:00 <duey> have a holiday
Mar 09 02:42:03 <morrildl> then I went there
Mar 09 02:42:16 <chaosvoyager> duey: Hell yes!
Mar 09 02:42:21 <morrildl> and I was like, "holy cow I can actually kind of find my way around the city from the Gran Turismo track"
Mar 09 02:42:51 <chaosvoyager> duey: I have a friend I lost touch with who was trying to gain citizenship there. It's really a pretty awesome place.
Mar 09 02:42:52 <jasta> Seattle is great.  We've got grit.
Mar 09 02:43:19 <duey> chaosvoyager, it has its downsides
Mar 09 02:43:31 <duey> like being in the middle of no where
Mar 09 02:43:32 <chaosvoyager> Sheep?
Mar 09 02:44:07 <duey> the sheep are gooood
Mar 09 02:44:07 <duey> :P
Mar 09 02:46:01 <chaosvoyager> ...hey, how is Google going to prevent a non-Android phone from using the Android logo? I can forsee some rather nasty companies doing just that.
Mar 09 02:46:05 <romainguy_> hey morrildl :)
Mar 09 02:46:34 <morrildl> chaosvoyager: well, Android is a trademark.  I haven't asked the lawyers about it but I assume we'll want to protect it
Mar 09 02:46:36 <duey> chaosvoyager, they would have to attribute the logo
Mar 09 02:46:50 <morrildl> the green bug droid is creative-commons-ed though
Mar 09 02:47:43 <morrildl> the official Android logo is the word "android" in the futuristic font
Mar 09 02:47:53 <duey> lol
Mar 09 02:47:56 <morrildl> ...and that is not CC-licensed
Mar 09 02:48:09 <morrildl> duey: ?
Mar 09 02:48:10 <jasta> that logo sucks too ;)
Mar 09 02:48:16 <jasta> it's all about the little green guy
Mar 09 02:48:26 <duey> the logo is awesome
Mar 09 02:48:31 <morrildl> the little green guy is definitely more fun than the text logo :)
Mar 09 02:48:36 <morrildl> that's why he's CC-ed
Mar 09 02:49:09 <romainguy_vs_Lis> damn
Mar 09 02:49:17 <chaosvoyager> Hmm, CC is copyright, which is treated very differently than trademarks. I'm not actually sure if you can release the art CC while protecting its value as a trademark.
Mar 09 02:49:46 <duey> chaosvoyager, they could just wipe said company of the internets
Mar 09 02:49:54 <duey> off
Mar 09 02:50:11 <chaosvoyager> and off the Google maps :P
Mar 09 02:50:14 <duey> ya
Mar 09 02:51:04 <duey> and then any phone calls on gphones to said company gets "disconnected"
Mar 09 02:51:21 <duey> who needs lawyers?
Mar 09 02:51:23 <duey> ;)
Mar 09 02:52:44 <chaosvoyager> Heh, on a more seriousness note though, I don't see how there's any way to avoid patent infringement when developing software. The only thing keeping me safe is that I'm not a big enough target.
Mar 09 02:54:08 <chaosvoyager> And that won't even matter if there's a larger company thats infringing as well, and the patent holder wants to target me first to set a precident.
Mar 09 02:56:18 <morrildl> chaosvoyager: yeah, the software patent situation is messy
Mar 09 02:56:55 <chaosvoyager> morrildl: beautifully understated.
Mar 09 02:57:23 <morrildl> :)
Mar 09 02:57:35 <morrildl> in that case then... my work here is finished :)
Mar 09 02:57:38 <morrildl> ...for today
Mar 09 02:57:43 <morrildl> see you guys later
Mar 09 02:57:47 <jasta> later
Mar 09 02:57:58 <chaosvoyager> ta.
Mar 09 02:59:05 <dragor43> yea speaking of patents, i noticed some Android app that can recognize and interpret bar codes using the phone's camera.  Did a search for patents and there's already one filed for that idea. sucks
Mar 09 03:00:42 <duey> lol
Mar 09 03:01:07 <chaosvoyager> There's probably one for the general pattern matching algorithm used for it, along with other forms of optical recognition, but I'll be damned if I search for that and open myself up to more liability.
Mar 09 03:01:44 <duey> well i guess it really depends on if the company that holds the patent is a patent troll
Mar 09 03:01:59 <chaosvoyager> Yes.
Mar 09 03:02:26 <chaosvoyager> Thank Ted SCO didn't have any applicable patents.
Mar 09 03:03:21 <duey> lol
Mar 09 03:04:40 <chaosvoyager> You can't embed Flash objects in HTML anymore because there is a patent. That's why you have to use Javascript or click once to activate.
Mar 09 03:06:57 <dragor43> sheesh
Mar 09 03:06:59 <chaosvoyager> You can do it if you don't call it HTML though. (* twitch *)
Mar 09 03:07:21 <chaosvoyager> Some shithead made 500mil from that.
Mar 09 03:08:33 <chaosvoyager> That's why I just ignore the laws and politics, damn the torpedos, and just code. I'd go mad if I didn't.
Mar 09 03:15:40 <jasta> doesn't seem to me that you ignore these things at all.
Mar 09 03:16:00 <jasta> seems like you read up on them diligently :)
Mar 09 03:26:12 <pyronik> patent laws are getting a bit ridiculous
Mar 09 03:26:35 <pyronik> im surprised i don't have to pay a royalty for my use of my legs to walk
Mar 09 03:26:43 <pyronik> im sure somebody would of patented that idea
Mar 09 03:26:45 <chaosvoyager> Yeah, I only started ignoring these things after I snapped.
Mar 09 03:53:02 <zhobbs> jasta: you figure out activitygroup?
Mar 09 03:58:55 <jasta> zhobbs: no, i gave up when i realized you'd have to manage your own activity history, which is super lame.
Mar 09 03:59:42 <pyronik> hey im just starting to read all the documentation on the android sdk
Mar 09 04:00:03 <pyronik> i had a quick question, is the android going to support built in gps
Mar 09 04:00:13 <zhobbs> pyronik: yeah
Mar 09 04:00:14 <pyronik> or should i say any of the phones coming out are they going to have it
Mar 09 04:00:19 <pyronik> ok awesome
Mar 09 04:00:23 <zhobbs> oh, no not all phones will have it
Mar 09 04:00:52 <pyronik> im thinking about making some kind of lojack service that would run as a background thing
Mar 09 04:00:52 <zhobbs> you'll be able to get a location either way, just not as accurate without gps
Mar 09 04:00:59 <jasta> zhobbs: I suspect every Android phone will support at least Google's My Location system.
Mar 09 04:01:22 <jasta> All that is required is that the manufacturers cooperate and produce chips that allow Android to read radio metrics.
Mar 09 04:01:34 <zhobbs> pyronik: http://www.helloandroid.com/node/159
Mar 09 04:01:53 <zhobbs> jasta: yeah, I assume there will be a location provider for the My Location thing
Mar 09 04:02:25 <pyronik> ohh ok thanks zhobbs
Mar 09 04:02:53 <pyronik> how big is it of a leap from a php devoloper to learn java and work with this SDK
Mar 09 04:03:24 <zhobbs> pyronik: probably not too bad if you understand OO principles
Mar 09 04:03:36 <pyronik> for the most part
Mar 09 04:03:39 <dragor43> Hmm, anyone use AlarmManager to launch an intent, and get it to pass values correctly in the Extras bundle?
Mar 09 04:03:48 <pyronik> i dont understand the concept of extending a class yet
Mar 09 04:03:50 <jasta> It depends on how competent you are as a developer in general.  pyronik, would you say you are a competent developer?
Mar 09 04:04:11 <pyronik> ive tried to develope 1 actual project, it worked so i guess so
Mar 09 04:04:20 <zhobbs> pyronik: yeah, you'll need to understand the concept of extending classes
Mar 09 04:04:20 <jasta> The answer is no.
Mar 09 04:04:32 <zhobbs> pick up a java book
Mar 09 04:04:44 <pyronik> will do
Mar 09 04:05:01 <pyronik> extending classes does that just add more functions to a class
Mar 09 04:05:13 <jasta> pyronik: Pick up a Java book.
Mar 09 04:05:17 <pyronik> ok
Mar 09 04:06:06 <pyronik> thanks guys
Mar 09 04:06:06 <zhobbs> but actually, java is pretty easy to program in...
Mar 09 04:06:18 <dragor43> pyronik: here's a nice link to get you started
Mar 09 04:06:19 <dragor43> http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/java/concepts/index.html
Mar 09 04:06:48 <jasta> Yes actually, Sun's online Java tutorial is quite good.
Mar 09 04:08:03 <pyronik> ~[ dragor43 ]~ thanks
Mar 09 04:08:25 <jasta> pyronik: I recommend reading instead of skimming.
Mar 09 04:09:29 <zhobbs> jasta: not sure how much you looked at activity group, but how do I know when a child activity is destroyed?
Mar 09 04:09:42 <jasta> zhobbs: as with finish()?
Mar 09 04:09:48 <zhobbs> yeah
Mar 09 04:10:53 <zhobbs> I see LocalActivityManager.dispatchDestroy()
Mar 09 04:11:03 <jasta> that's for you to destroy your activities though
Mar 09 04:11:55 <jasta> honestly i don't know.  the only handle you'd have to find that out is the Window?
Mar 09 04:12:22 <zhobbs> ok, I'll keep looking
Mar 09 04:14:46 <romainguy[> damn ListView @!#
Mar 09 04:14:53 <dragor43> yeah.. crap.. the data in the extras bundle must get lost when AlarmManager launches an intent
Mar 09 04:17:22 <jasta> romainguy[: why is this thing so damn complex? :)
Mar 09 04:17:34 <romainguy[> because it does a lot of things for you guys
Mar 09 04:17:51 <romainguy[> most importantly because it's efficient with very large sets of data
Mar 09 04:22:48 <jasta> well i certainly have noticed that
Mar 09 04:23:48 <romainguy[> and it gives you (almost) total freedom over what it contains
Mar 09 04:23:57 <romainguy[> so it makes no assumption about the nature and dimension of the items
Mar 09 04:24:24 <jasta> it makes some assumptions ;)
Mar 09 04:24:30 <romainguy[> like what?
Mar 09 04:25:05 <jasta> how does it calculate the position and size of the scroll bar without scanning every item in the list?
Mar 09 04:25:14 <romainguy[> well it does not scan the list
Mar 09 04:25:17 <jasta> i know.
Mar 09 04:25:38 <jasta> instead, it assumes that each item is approximately related to the size of items previously observed, right?
Mar 09 04:25:50 <romainguy[> depends on how you see it
Mar 09 04:26:02 <jasta> if you had 2 huge items and one very small one, the scroll bar would draw very strangely.
Mar 09 04:26:10 <romainguy[> yeah it changes size
Mar 09 04:26:12 <jasta> so, listview must be assuming something ;P
Mar 09 04:26:19 <romainguy[> no it does not
Mar 09 04:26:31 <romainguy[> it just reports scroll values based solely on the number of items
Mar 09 04:26:48 <romainguy[> contrary to scrollview for instance which bases these values on pixels
Mar 09 04:26:55 <jasta> really?
Mar 09 04:26:59 <romainguy[> yeah
Mar 09 04:27:34 <romainguy[> for a ListView: scrollExtent=number of children on screen, scrollOffset=firstVisiblePosition, scrollRange=number of items in adapter
Mar 09 04:27:48 <romainguy[> it's the first value that causes the scrollbars to act like a "snake" and change size from time to time
Mar 09 04:27:58 <romainguy[> it sucks but I hadn't have time to find a better solution y et
Mar 09 04:29:13 <jasta> i really enjoy working with android services :)
Mar 09 04:29:17 <jasta> this stuff is great
Mar 09 04:29:33 <romainguy[> glad to hear that :)
Mar 09 04:29:50 <jasta> the UI is pleasant too.
Mar 09 04:29:59 <jasta> the component that i despise is content providers.
Mar 09 04:30:18 <romainguy[> how come?
Mar 09 04:30:27 <romainguy[> (I never wrote one so I don't know how it is to use them)
Mar 09 04:30:34 <jasta> i can't say that it's a bad design, it's just lame to code for.  hard to gracefully factor your code, seems very redundant.
Mar 09 04:31:16 <zhobbs> what do I do to display a Window object?
Mar 09 04:31:32 <jasta> also, it's a strange model to have to create a separate content uri and handle it in 3 separate places for each type of adaptation your data can have.
Mar 09 04:31:46 <jasta> zhobbs: You just access it's view with getDecorView or something, and you display that View with a FrameLayout.
Mar 09 04:31:59 <zhobbs> Oh, I see
Mar 09 04:32:16 <romainguy[> zhobbs: what are you trying to do?
Mar 09 04:32:36 <zhobbs> romainguy[: use ActivityGroup as a hack to enable animations between activities
Mar 09 04:32:47 <romainguy[> ouch
Mar 09 04:32:58 <romainguy[> you're being impatient :)
Mar 09 04:33:02 <jasta> hackbod suggested it, actually
Mar 09 04:33:06 <romainguy[> I know
Mar 09 04:33:21 <zhobbs> she said activity animations will be supported though
Mar 09 04:33:24 <jasta> she said that they "hope" to get this done by 1.0.  that doesn't inspire me with confidence ;)
Mar 09 04:33:30 <romainguy[> yeah
Mar 09 04:33:33 <jasta> i assume 1.0 means phone release.
Mar 09 04:37:55 <zhobbs> hmmm...this seems like it might be a bad idea...I gotta manage all the menu and key stuff for the activities
Mar 09 04:39:06 <jasta> see :P
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Mar 09 04:41:09 2008
Mar 09 04:42:01 <zhobbs> great, now I get an error everytime I type a "."
Mar 09 04:42:20 <zhobbs> not just one error, 6 error windows
Mar 09 04:55:44 <zhobbs> hmm...I could just animate the views when the activity first starts...didn't think about that
Mar 09 04:56:07 <romainguy_> zhobbs: you can use a LayoutAnimation to do that easily
Mar 09 04:58:22 <zhobbs> kinda wanted to do that 3d animation in the apidemos, but couldn't really do that I guess
Mar 09 05:01:48 <romainguy___> zhobbs: why couldn't you?
Mar 09 05:02:25 <zhobbs> the new activity wouldn't know what the old activity looks like to use in the transition
Mar 09 05:03:37 <romainguy___> ah between activities
Mar 09 05:03:41 <romainguy___> sorry, tired tonight :))
Mar 09 05:04:06 <zhobbs> :)
Mar 09 05:32:23 <jasta> man i am just plowing through code tonight :)
Mar 09 05:32:37 <jasta> the girlfriend is visiting her dad ;)
Mar 09 05:35:37 <duey> :(
Mar 09 05:35:43 <duey> im writing stupid proposal
Mar 09 05:48:23 <jasta> i am unfortunately writing way too much code without testing :)
Mar 09 05:48:47 <jasta> haven't done a test run in hours and hours :)
Mar 09 06:06:38 <jasta> well...i suppose it's ready to test now ;P
Mar 09 06:08:47 <jasta> oh jeez
Mar 09 06:08:53 <jasta> svn diff | wc -l reports 1100 :)
Mar 09 06:09:25 <zhobbs> just tonight?
Mar 09 06:09:29 <jasta> yeah
Mar 09 06:09:40 <jasta> but svn diff is in unidiff mode of course
Mar 09 06:13:36 <jasta> i fully implemented the second major service that my engine provides
Mar 09 06:13:48 <jasta> the content delivery and cache management service
Mar 09 06:14:47 <jasta> it was all dummy code before
Mar 09 06:16:55 <jasta> my project broke 10K loc this weekend :)
Mar 09 07:16:32 <zhobbs> romainguy: where's the left padding come from when you're using android.R.layout.simple_list_item_1?  The TextView itself doesn't have any padding left
Mar 09 07:16:59 <romainguy> it does
Mar 09 07:17:04 <romainguy> from the XML file:
Mar 09 07:17:04 <romainguy>     android:paddingLeft="27dip"
Mar 09 07:18:08 <zhobbs> hmmm, the one in the jar doesn't seem to have that
Mar 09 07:18:16 <romainguy> well it does
Mar 09 07:18:45 <zhobbs> what's the paddingTop/Bottom?
Mar 09 07:18:49 <romainguy> none
Mar 09 07:20:33 <zhobbs> k, thanks...
Mar 09 07:21:26 <zhobbs> guess we're looking at the wrong xml files with this axml2xml
Mar 09 07:24:50 <zhobbs> If I use a simple built in adapter and say to use android.R.layout.simple_list_item_1 the list items look like they do in the api demos, etc
Mar 09 07:25:15 <zhobbs> but if I create a custom adapter to do "TextView txt = (TextView) vi.inflate(android.R.layout.simple_list_item_1, null, null);" I don't get the top/bottom padding
Mar 09 07:29:19 <thedaniel`> lol! i just looked around for the growl-notification and the class is called Toast!
Mar 09 07:29:22 <thedaniel`> because it pops up!
Mar 09 07:29:34 <thedaniel`> oh google, as long as you make silly jokes you'll have my heart
Mar 09 07:29:44 <zhobbs> thedaniel`: that's why they call it toast....I never realized
Mar 09 07:31:10 <thedaniel`> zhobbs: maybe you have a toaster oven instead of a pop up toaster
Mar 09 07:31:23 <zhobbs> ahhh, that's it
Mar 09 07:34:30 <zhobbs> romainguy: hmm...looks like that android.R.simple_list_item_1 will only render correctly when stuck in a ViewGroup (linearlayout in mine)
Mar 09 07:36:36 <romainguy____> uh?
Mar 09 07:36:45 <romainguy____> how could it be in something else than a ViewGroup>
Mar 09 07:36:45 <romainguy____> ?
Mar 09 07:36:55 <romainguy____> aaah
Mar 09 07:37:00 <romainguy____> I see your problem
Mar 09 07:37:01 <zhobbs> well, I was just returning the TextView itself
Mar 09 07:37:14 <romainguy____> vi.inflate(android.R.layout.simple_list_item_1, null, null); << you should pass the parent and false
Mar 09 07:37:21 <romainguy____> otherwise it won't create the layout params
Mar 09 07:37:38 <romainguy____> in particular the custom height
Mar 09 07:38:26 <zhobbs> Ahh, I see
Mar 09 08:29:39 <chaosvoyager> romainguy: I know you probably don't have a lot of spare dev time, but have you looked at the iPhone SDK at all?
Mar 09 08:33:22 <romainguy> chaosvoyager: I'd rather not try it until I know for sure I can
Mar 09 08:33:41 <romainguy> (be back in 1 minute)
Mar 09 08:35:54 <zhobbs> romainguy____: you mean you're not sure if apple allows you to or if google allows you to?
Mar 09 08:36:54 <romainguy_____> zhobbs: it's not a question of being allowed
Mar 09 08:36:56 <romainguy_____> zhobbs: it's about patents, etc.
Mar 09 08:38:08 <davidw> what's that... the two finger interface stuff?
Mar 09 08:38:54 <niket> Hi, I am new to android...
Mar 09 08:38:59 <zhobbs> hello
Mar 09 08:39:21 <niket> Can anyone help me in finding the way to get the boundary  (latitude min/max, longitude min/max) on google map running in android application?
Mar 09 08:39:39 <romainguy_____> davidw: or anything else they can have patents on :)
Mar 09 08:40:49 <zhobbs> niket: I think MapView.getLatitudeSpan()
Mar 09 08:41:06 <niket> ok...let me check that
Mar 09 08:42:39 <niket> so it returns int value....what would be value of max and min long/lat of map display area
Mar 09 08:42:59 <niket> I am looking for 4 values
Mar 09 08:43:28 <zhobbs> that is probably the whole span accross the screen, so mapCenter + span/2 would give you an edge of the screen right?
Mar 09 08:51:44 <niket> yeah I think so ....so what would be the exact call...min longitude= mapview.getCenterPoint()-mapview.getlongitudeSpan()/2, max longitude= mapview.getCenterPoint()+mapview.getlongitudeSpan()/2
Mar 09 08:51:49 <niket> can u conirm me?
Mar 09 08:52:34 <niket> min latitude= mapview.getCenterPoint()-mapview.getlatitudeSpan()/2, max latitude= mapview.getCenterPoint()+mapview.getlatitudeSpan()/2
Mar 09 08:52:53 <niket> zhobbs,can u confirm me this also?
Mar 09 08:53:13 <zhobbs> it makes sense to me, you'd just have to try it
Mar 09 08:53:24 <niket>  thanks zhobbs
Mar 09 09:23:29 <jasta> Does anyone know if INSERT OR REPLACE in SQLite3 will re-use the same PRIMARY KEY when the REPLACE occurs?
Mar 09 09:24:02 <jasta> The documentation simply says that it invokes a DELETE then INSERT on conflict, not that it tries to re-use the same value for the PRIMARY KEY.
Mar 09 10:01:31 <jasta> damn, just lost an hour
Mar 09 10:30:28 <jasta> romainguy: you can't still be up?
Mar 09 10:30:59 <romainguy_> I am actually
Mar 09 10:31:03 <jasta> wow :)
Mar 09 10:31:05 <jasta> just like me hehe
Mar 09 10:31:05 <romainguy_> I forgot about this @!# daylight saving
Mar 09 10:31:12 <jasta> bullshit
Mar 09 10:31:14 <romainguy_> just noticed it's 3:30
Mar 09 10:31:39 <jasta> i'm so tired but i just can't stop coding
Mar 09 10:31:47 <jasta> i feel like an f'n machine right now
Mar 09 10:31:59 <jasta> i've churned out almost 2000 lines today alone (Saturday)
Mar 09 10:32:10 <romainguy_> writing tons of code is pretty easy :)
Mar 09 10:32:27 <jasta> it's not that easy, i've been doing it all day :)
Mar 09 10:32:39 <romainguy_> it's still pretty easy to just crank out tons of code :p
Mar 09 10:32:44 <jasta> i fully implemented my content delivery and caching service both in Android and on the C server
Mar 09 10:32:51 <jasta> and implemented a robust test activity in the music player
Mar 09 10:33:11 <romainguy_> yeah well, tonight it took me several hours to write a few dozen lines of code
Mar 09 10:33:19 <romainguy_> but that saved 5 frames per second on several animations
Mar 09 10:33:23 <romainguy_> :p
Mar 09 10:33:42 <jasta> optimization is very unlike what i'm doing :)
Mar 09 10:34:09 <jasta> in fact, i will need to go back through at least two major parts of this system and partially redesign them at some point
Mar 09 10:34:20 <jasta> I'm still using XML for communication even, not WbXML yet :)
Mar 09 10:34:29 <romainguy_> also I now know how much time it takes for our view hierarchy between a call to invalidate() and the execution of onDraw()
Mar 09 10:35:09 <romainguy_> (on a specific piece of hardware)
Mar 09 10:35:11 <jasta> i am so flippin tired :\
Mar 09 10:35:19 <romainguy_> yeah me too
Mar 09 10:35:24 <romainguy_> that's why I'm going to bed
Mar 09 10:35:30 <jasta> not me yet :)
Mar 09 10:35:46 <jasta> i am waiting until i encounter one of those cases that makes me just sit back and say "Fuck." ;)
Mar 09 10:36:08 <jasta> you know, the type of gotcha that causes you to just give up for the night
Mar 09 10:36:39 <romainguy_> yep
Mar 09 10:36:46 <romainguy_> I had one of those tonight
Mar 09 10:37:05 <romainguy_> but it made me work on this optimization instead of giving up totally ^^
Mar 09 10:37:10 <jasta> heh
Mar 09 10:37:20 <romainguy_> I haven't done what I was set to do though :))
Mar 09 10:37:30 <jasta> i have barely tested large portions of this code i just wrote so i'm thinking i'll hit it soon :)
Mar 09 10:38:27 <jasta> hopefully this will help me test that my system degrades gracefully hehe
Mar 09 10:46:27 <jasta> romainguy: hmm, found something kind of weird
Mar 09 10:46:40 <romainguy_> what?
Mar 09 10:46:46 <jasta> if you specify a <Button> in XML, but do not set android:text, it doesn't draw at all.
Mar 09 10:47:25 <jasta> not a lot of helpful information about why it's not drawn either.  might be worth treating specially to show a blank button?
Mar 09 10:47:33 <jasta> just so folks aren't confused
Mar 09 10:48:05 <romainguy> what are your layoutparams?
Mar 09 10:48:07 <jasta> actually wait, i think something else might be problematic in my layout :)
Mar 09 10:48:21 <romainguy> because I'm pretty sure you can have an empty button on screen
Mar 09 10:48:31 <jasta> hehe osrry, i'm just tired :)
Mar 09 10:48:37 <romainguy> :p
Mar 09 10:48:39 <jasta> my outer linearlayout had the wrong orientation
Mar 09 10:49:18 <jasta> i'm quite pleased that i have this layout thing down finally.  it's easy for me to create layouts exactly as I imagine them first try.
Mar 09 10:49:50 <romainguy> they're not very hard once you get used to them
Mar 09 10:49:56 <jasta> no, not at all
Mar 09 10:50:12 <jasta> but it did take a bit of time to get accustomed.
Mar 09 10:55:04 <romainguy> like pretty much every UI toolkit
Mar 09 10:55:17 <jasta> of course, yes.
Mar 09 11:03:50 <romainguy__> gngngn
Mar 09 11:03:55 <romainguy__> some bug reports...
Mar 09 11:03:59 <jasta> ?
Mar 09 11:04:31 <romainguy__> somebody is complaining that our drawText API does not behave's like .NET C#'s
Mar 09 11:04:42 <jasta> lol
Mar 09 11:05:01 <romainguy__> apparently in C# the y coordinate in drawText is the upper left pixel of the text being drawn
Mar 09 11:05:02 <jasta> if that's the most ridiculous one you could find, consider yourself lucky.
Mar 09 11:05:16 <romainguy__> whereas in pretty much every 2D API I've ever used, it's the position of the text's baseline
Mar 09 11:05:49 <romainguy__> no it's not the most ridiculous
Mar 09 11:14:58 <jasta> i can't believe i'm still going man!
Mar 09 11:18:12 <jasta> damn, service doesn't work, but at least it reports errors correctly :)
Mar 09 11:28:49 <jasta> alright, i'm done.
Mar 09 11:28:55 <jasta> i'm satisfied the client works, but the server has issues ;)
Mar 09 11:28:58 <jasta> i'll work on it in the morning
Mar 09 11:29:06 <jasta> night romain if you're still up :)
Mar 09 16:30:39 <zhobbs> www.weather.com
Mar 09 16:44:47 <chomchom> are there any linux commands to just basically view a file in the adb shell? Like more ,vi or nano?
Mar 09 16:45:12 <muthu> chomchom: is 'cat' working?
Mar 09 16:46:16 <chomchom> ]yes
Mar 09 16:46:18 <chomchom> :)
Mar 09 16:46:55 <chomchom> are there any edit tools?
Mar 09 16:48:10 <muthu> does busybox have any tools?
Mar 09 16:51:56 <muthu> check system/bin
Mar 09 16:52:00 <muthu> there
Mar 09 16:52:11 <muthu> i see a monkey and a dog :)
Mar 09 16:52:18 <chomchom> yeah I looked in there but don't see anything
Mar 09 16:52:22 <chomchom> yeah!
Mar 09 16:52:24 <chomchom> what are they?
Mar 09 16:52:29 <muthu> no idea
Mar 09 16:53:01 <muthu> i read something about installing busybox.. google it
Mar 09 16:53:34 <chomchom> cool
Mar 09 16:53:36 <chomchom> thx
Mar 09 17:02:01 <chaosvoyager> [rhetorical] why is hell my project starting with 'G' under 'P' in Google Code?!? >_<
Mar 09 17:05:47 <chaosvoyager> Hmm, seems they're all under 'P', but what the hell does 'P' mean?!?!
Mar 09 17:24:14 <muthu> http://www.talkandroid.com/37-google-android-apps/
Mar 09 18:26:55 <Garett> anyone here?
Mar 09 18:36:54 <Garett> has anyone had any luck trying to install an apk file over the air through the default browser?
Mar 09 18:38:34 <davidw> don't think it's possible
Mar 09 18:38:55 <Garett> damn... do you know if it's in the master plan at least?
Mar 09 18:41:11 <inZane-> hey
Mar 09 18:42:00 <inZane-> does someone know what they mean with normalized phone number?
Mar 09 18:42:06 <inZane-> http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/provider/Contacts.PhonesColumns.html
Mar 09 18:42:18 <inZane-> NUMBER_KEY   The normalized phone number
Mar 09 20:43:57 <jasta> yawnnn :)
Mar 09 20:54:28 <jasta> anyone familiar with Eclipse here?  I having a hard time understanding how I can have project A create a jar that project B depends on to build.  I have configured project A to export a jar, and "linked to external jar" from project B, but this seems not like the Eclipse authors intended.
Mar 09 20:54:46 <jasta> sorry, I'm new to Eclipse :)
Mar 09 20:55:03 <romainguy_> instead of linking to an external jar you can just make a project depend on another project
Mar 09 20:55:11 <romainguy_> and it will automatically get the exported jar
Mar 09 20:55:14 <romainguy_> stupid Eclipse
Mar 09 20:56:03 <jasta> so if i just make a dependency then it will automatically get the jar i "exported" from project A?  and have it automatically built if it doesn't exist?
Mar 09 20:56:34 <romainguy_> yep
Mar 09 20:57:01 <jasta> i added a dep in the build path for project B, but the "native library location" parameter confused me.  why would i need to tell it where the jar file exports to?
Mar 09 20:57:07 <jasta> shouldn't it know?
Mar 09 20:57:23 <romainguy_> native library file has nothing to do with jars
Mar 09 20:57:23 <chaosvoyager> Hmm, suddenly I'm curious to try the Netbeans plugin...
Mar 09 20:57:34 <romainguy_> it's for .so or .dll
Mar 09 20:58:07 <jasta> oh.
Mar 09 20:58:17 <jasta> romainguy_: Excellent, thanks.  It's building now.
Mar 09 20:58:21 <romainguy_> sure
Mar 09 20:58:34 <romainguy_> chaosvoyager: I'd like to try it to, I really like NetBeans 6
Mar 09 20:58:58 <jasta> i needed project A to export it's provider constants and AIDL service stubs.
Mar 09 20:59:01 <jasta> ;)
Mar 09 21:01:49 <jasta> I am hoping to switch to Eclim soon, unfortunately it looks like the latest versions require Eclipse 3.3 for some reason
Mar 09 21:04:49 * jasta scratches his head
Mar 09 21:04:56 <jasta> that was weird.  i just launched my application from eclipse
Mar 09 21:05:35 <jasta> and the activity manager called onCreate, onResume, then onPause all before the UI appeared on scren
Mar 09 21:05:51 <jasta> E/AndroidRuntime(  991): ERROR: thread attach failed
Mar 09 21:05:54 <jasta> then i got that after onPause
Mar 09 21:10:46 <davidw> time to reboot your phone
Mar 09 21:10:53 <jasta> never.
Mar 09 21:11:03 <jasta> i intentionally leave android running on my desktop for weeks at a time
Mar 09 21:16:36 <f00f> why are downloads so slow on android?
Mar 09 21:16:44 <f00f> i'm using url.openStream();
Mar 09 21:16:50 <f00f> with a BufferedReader 8K
Mar 09 21:17:04 <f00f> takes like 5 seconds to download a 3 kb file
Mar 09 21:17:32 <f00f> network is set to UMTS
Mar 09 21:26:52 <jasta> f00f: what's netdelay set to?
Mar 09 21:27:51 <jasta> btw, that is somewhat consistent with how cell phone radios typically work.  from personal experience, it seems to take a few seconds to "get going" when i haven't used the data connection in a while.
Mar 09 21:50:26 <f00f> jasta: how do i check netdelay?
Mar 09 21:50:43 <f00f> jasta: i know, but it's doing 5 second wait for almost every single request. i do a bunch at a time.
Mar 09 21:50:44 <jasta> you can set it in the eclipse plugin or by passing -netdelay to the emulator
Mar 09 21:50:58 <f00f> ah Network Latency is set to none
Mar 09 21:51:19 <jasta> many small connections are very inefficient f00f.  TCP has a lot of handshake overhead.
Mar 09 21:51:48 <jasta> if you are using a protocol like HTTP, consider enabling pipelining.
Mar 09 21:51:53 <f00f> so you're telling me they have a stupid implementation and don't do persistent HTTP connections?
Mar 09 21:52:01 <f00f> i'm just using URL :)
Mar 09 21:52:23 <jasta> well, they might :)
Mar 09 21:52:45 <jasta> i would recommend using HttpClient to ensure that the behaviour is sensible and also so that you can have more robust error management.
Mar 09 21:53:17 <f00f> hmm, ok makes sense, let me look into it
Mar 09 21:53:41 <romainguy_> f00f: so you're telling me they have a stupid implementation and don't do persistent HTTP connections? << persistent connections on a cellphone is not necessarily the best idea :)
Mar 09 21:54:11 <f00f> romainguy_: well i mean if i make X number of requests within a Y-time window, it should be smart enough to pipeline it automatically? :D
Mar 09 21:54:33 <f00f> i'm using the most basic form of connectivity (URL)
Mar 09 21:54:39 <romainguy_> I doubt that's what the spec says for the URL class
Mar 09 21:54:41 <f00f> but i guess HttpClient might be better
Mar 09 21:55:01 <jasta> it will be
Mar 09 21:55:04 <f00f> yeah URL is probably the wrong thing to use in the first place
Mar 09 21:55:08 <romainguy_> URL being one of the low level access point to the network it would seem logical to me that it doesn't do taht kind of things
Mar 09 21:55:16 <romainguy_> as jasta said, it's more HttpClient's job
Mar 09 21:59:50 <f00f> i guess it'll take a few more lines of code
Mar 09 22:23:04 <chomchom> Guys, I've been using the gps dummy location Provider by just pushing new mock data to the adb shell every runtime, I'd really like to just make my own bespoke ones like testroute1, etc. The problem is although I technically now how to do, it where to put it etc and the permissions you need I still have had no luck at runtime collecting the new mock provider. every request to locationManager.getProviders() returns one the "gps"
Mar 09 22:23:04 <chomchom>  provider. Any suggestions or links to tutorials?
Mar 09 22:34:55 <chomchom> scub that, I had wipe-data as an argument to the emulator.
Mar 09 22:40:20 <f00f> jasta: if i want to download 5 files at aonce, should i just use RequestQueue ?
Mar 10 00:01:47 <jasta> weird, my service disappeared?
Mar 10 00:02:59 <jasta> reinstalling the package that provided it fixed it.  hmm.
Mar 10 00:12:09 <skicso1> hmnf.  what's an entrepreneur to do......android? iphone? blackberry?  this should be a very interesting year.
Mar 10 00:21:12 <jasta> hmm
Mar 10 00:21:19 <jasta> I think MediaPlayer.create() is completely broken
Mar 10 00:33:03 <f00f-> skicso1: i smell a JVM for the iPhone coming :)
Mar 10 00:33:46 <chomchom> phew, it'll make a quick converstion somewhat easier for us android app guys.
Mar 10 00:40:52 <jasta> ok, i'm kind of pissed here
Mar 10 00:41:13 <jasta> the MediaPlayer has so many problems.  i thought they were touting this as usable with M5?
Mar 10 00:41:51 <jasta> it doesn't seem that you can use it to play content accessed from a content provider even
Mar 10 00:42:13 <jasta> they want us to use the openFile() method now instead of the old "_data" column hack, and yet it seems like that's all the MediaPlayer supports
Mar 10 00:43:00 <jasta> and on top of that, if you use content.openFileDescriptor() manually and pass it as mp.setDataSource(pfd.getFileDescriptor(), ...); it throws an IO exception.
Mar 10 00:43:17 <jasta> So how the hell am I supposed to use this thing?
Mar 10 00:45:03 <jasta> it works perfectly fine if you call setDataSource() with a path, but that's not how ContentProvider's are supposed to work so what the hell?
Mar 10 00:46:30 <f00f-> wtf there is no documentation on RequestQueue
Mar 10 00:48:08 <jasta> hehe, i may have led you astray :)
Mar 10 00:48:14 <jasta> HttpClient 3.x does not support pipelining Z:)
Mar 10 00:48:16 <jasta> erm :)
Mar 10 00:48:24 <jasta> i just looked it up for you
Mar 10 00:48:59 <f00f-> well i'll probably just spawn a thread for each file and use URL
Mar 10 00:49:04 <jasta> HttpClient 4.x is expected to have it, but Android is unlikely to use that.
Mar 10 00:49:04 <f00f-> as i see there is zero docs
Mar 10 00:49:33 <jasta> i don't know what you mean by "zero docs".  i found this info in the first google result
Mar 10 00:49:56 <jasta> http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=38189#194930
Mar 10 00:50:18 <f00f-> no docs in android
Mar 10 00:50:21 <skicso1> f00f: that'd be nice - i saw one of the android bloggers reported that it currently uses objective -c
Mar 10 00:50:31 <jasta> f00f-: why would you need Android docs for HttpClient?  Just use HttpClient's docs.
Mar 10 00:50:44 <f00f-> yeah objective c sucks, some peculiar apple flavor
Mar 10 00:50:58 <f00f-> so i'm really hoping for a JVM :)
Mar 10 00:51:14 <f00f-> you can get one in 150KB so it shouldn't be a big issue
Mar 10 00:51:42 <jasta> f00f-: I will say that you will never get good performance out of this strategy though.  Since HttpClient 3.x seems to lack pipelining support, perhaps you should explore alternatives.
Mar 10 00:52:10 <f00f-> lol
Mar 10 00:52:17 <jasta> Opening many separate HTTP connections for small file downloads will be very slow.
Mar 10 00:52:28 <f00f-> i can't believe this android platform
Mar 10 00:52:36 <f00f-> so i have to bundle them as a big download
Mar 10 00:52:50 <jasta> Wouldn't that be more sensible anyway?
Mar 10 00:52:50 <f00f-> maybe there is a zip decoder
Mar 10 00:53:13 <f00f-> absolutely
Mar 10 00:53:17 <jasta> There is, but I would be careful about using compression.
Mar 10 00:53:23 <chomchom> I'd imagine they will really be taking great pains to think about how they approach the windowing system. I can't quite see apple letting traditional clunky swing apps on an iphone.
Mar 10 00:53:33 <f00f-> right, i'd just pack them
Mar 10 00:53:45 <f00f-> chomchom: not swing, either eSWT or native Cocoa mobile widgets
Mar 10 00:53:57 <f00f-> Swing is dead
Mar 10 00:54:05 <chomchom> certainly is.
Mar 10 00:54:05 <jasta> So what can't you believe about "this android platform"?
Mar 10 00:54:20 <f00f-> jasta: well these little things,.
Mar 10 00:54:26 <f00f-> it's probably my fault; i expected too much :)
Mar 10 00:54:42 <f00f-> i wonder how iPhone development feels like!
Mar 10 00:54:42 <jasta> It's your fault because you don't understand what you expect.
Mar 10 00:55:13 <jasta> The URL class doesn't typically implement HTTP pipelining either.  In this case, shame on Apache for going through 3 major releases and still not supporting this feature.
Mar 10 00:55:17 <jasta> And then shame on you for having a stupid design :)
Mar 10 00:55:43 <f00f-> well a small detail
Mar 10 00:55:46 <f00f-> URL is very convenient
Mar 10 00:56:11 <f00f-> i'll just make one request total :D
Mar 10 00:56:23 <jasta> Yes, it is convenient because it is "dumb".  It also isn't very flexible, and has poor error reporting.
Mar 10 00:56:53 <f00f-> it's dumb and cheap
Mar 10 00:56:56 <jasta> However that is very frustrating that HttpClient would not support pipelining.
Mar 10 00:56:59 <jasta> f00f-: Cheap?
Mar 10 00:57:05 <jasta> How is it cheap?
Mar 10 00:57:05 <skicso1> foof: i watched the video of the Apple SDK announcement where they showed the dev environment. - the "hello world" example reminded me of Motif.  They pasted in a chunk of code, hit the build/deploy button and said "see how easy that was"?
Mar 10 00:57:17 <f00f-> i'm building/submitting a prototype, not a product so i can afford to cut corners as long it works
Mar 10 00:57:40 <jasta> If that is how you define your deliverables then sure.
Mar 10 00:57:49 <f00f-> skicso1: so overall, were you impressed by it?
Mar 10 00:58:06 <skicso1> still, one idea that I think google should stea^H^H^H^H borrow is the the AppStore delivery/fulfillment package.
Mar 10 00:59:04 <skicso1> foof: dunno if I was impressed - I've never developed on a mac so I was bummed they didn't have an eclipse plug in :-P
Mar 10 00:59:43 <chomchom> I haven't tried it out yet, but I have a friend who is a mobile developer who is very impressed by it. Says it comes with a lot of helpful tools to get you running.
Mar 10 01:00:05 <skicso1> yeah, they have a nice set of instrumentation tools
Mar 10 01:00:25 <jasta> of course, you have to develop in ObjC on a Mac, so ... ;)
Mar 10 01:00:51 <skicso1> yeah, having to buy a mac just to get started is a bit of a downer
Mar 10 01:01:03 <chomchom> Yeah, thats awful. No platform support what so ever.
Mar 10 01:01:11 <jasta> lol, i can't even watch the stupid introduction videos because apparently they dont support linux
Mar 10 01:01:13 <f00f-> i'm sure they will make it simpler, otherwise it will be a complete failure
Mar 10 01:01:32 <jasta> f00f-: Why do you assume that developers are retarded?
Mar 10 01:01:58 <f00f-> jasta: i don't. i just assume not every developer does their work on apple platforms.
Mar 10 01:02:11 <jasta> Writing non-trivial, production quality software is never an easy task.  Not for any firm.  Nothing has to be "easy".
Mar 10 01:02:29 <f00f-> i never said it should be easy.
Mar 10 01:02:45 <jasta> Then how did you mean "simpler"?
Mar 10 01:02:53 <chomchom> Jasta, I think you're out for fight!
Mar 10 01:02:54 <f00f-> multi-platform support and tools
Mar 10 01:03:11 <f00f-> ie. not have to go out and buy a mac to write an app for the iphone
Mar 10 01:03:11 <jasta> f00f-: Apple will not release multi-platform tools, that is almost certain.
Mar 10 01:03:15 <chomchom> poor guy, hes been developing 24/7
Mar 10 01:03:21 <skicso1> i don't think they'll port it.  i think they are banking that the iphone target is attractive enough that a non-mac developer will suck it up.
Mar 10 01:03:40 <f00f-> they're becoming more like MS nowadays
Mar 10 01:03:44 <jasta> skicso1: Precisely, and frankly I think that bet will pay off commercially which is what they're hoping for.
Mar 10 01:04:04 <jasta> skicso1: It won't, however, attract much attention from the open source community.
Mar 10 01:04:11 <jasta> But Apple doesn't care about them :)
Mar 10 01:04:18 <jasta> at least not for this product
Mar 10 01:04:33 <chomchom> I don't think they'll really have to, it looks like they are aiming at quite a high end market. As opposed to google who could technically see themselves deployed on anything.
Mar 10 01:04:50 <jasta> exactly, which is why I think f00f- is completely wrong here.
Mar 10 01:07:05 <jasta> I think frankly Apple will see a lot of success with the iPhone SDK too.
Mar 10 01:07:32 <skicso1> I think the success will largely be a product of the AppStore.  Icon for the AppStore will be on every iphone starting in June
Mar 10 01:07:36 <jasta> It just won't be the same type of success Android is likely to see.  Android will probably have a much more robust set of niche applications.
Mar 10 01:09:26 <skicso1> I think the main downside for iphone is (currently) just one carrier
Mar 10 01:10:00 <skicso1> OHA is cool if the partner companies actually support/push android
Mar 10 01:10:47 <chomchom> It's really good that we've got two such widely diverse platforms. I can't see every poor kid in India owning an Iphone and I can't see apple striving to get them one. But I imagine that google will aim to branch to as many providers as possible. Meanwhile apple can afford to innovate in the luxury sector and put out new models that will benefit the sector at large.
Mar 10 01:11:27 <chomchom> luxury/high end
Mar 10 01:14:20 <skicso1> chomchom: mighty late/early in scotland isn't it?
Mar 10 01:14:45 <chomchom> it's not that bad yet, 1:14am
Mar 10 01:15:25 <chomchom> bed for 4 methinks. Prime hacking hours.
Mar 10 01:21:41 <skicso1> i usually regret the code i write at 1 am :-P
Mar 10 01:22:26 <chomchom> me too sadly it's the only time I really get :).
Mar 10 01:23:12 <jasta> Hmm, can we observe progress of a playing media file?
Mar 10 01:23:19 <jasta> to show or change the position in the file?
Mar 10 01:26:01 <jasta> AndroidPlayBackEngine?  Hmm....
Mar 10 01:29:54 <jasta> oh, duh, getCurrentPosition is available from MediaPlayer
Mar 10 01:30:03 <jasta> i'm sort of confused though.  do i have to just poll it every second?
Mar 10 03:58:18 <chomchom> thats it hitting the magic number of 4.00am. Night all.
Mar 10 05:18:43 * jasta gets pissed and throws MediaPlayer out the window
Mar 10 05:18:48 <jasta> this piece of shit is so fucking BROKEN
Mar 10 05:21:28 <zhobbs> jasta: what problems you having?
Mar 10 05:21:43 <jasta> trying to get it to play from a content URI
Mar 10 05:21:49 <jasta> it's so fucking screwed up you can't even believe it.
Mar 10 05:21:52 <zhobbs> Ahh
Mar 10 05:22:03 <jasta> first of all, it doesn't use ContentProvider#openFile(), it uses that lame old _data hack.
Mar 10 05:22:07 <jasta> So now I have provided it that
Mar 10 05:22:11 <jasta> and it still doesn't work.
Mar 10 05:22:21 <jasta> who knows why
Mar 10 05:22:32 <zhobbs> probably because no one has ever tried it before
Mar 10 05:22:47 <jasta> it's so broken though
Mar 10 05:22:54 <jasta> MediaPlayer.create(..., resId) doesn't work either.
Mar 10 05:23:15 <jasta> the same files pulled out of the resource package and placed on disk and loaded using setDataSource() works fine though
Mar 10 05:23:24 <jasta> also, setDataSource(fd, ...) doesn't work correctly either.
Mar 10 05:23:33 <jasta> the whole thing is just so fuckin broken
Mar 10 05:23:35 <zhobbs> glad I haven't gotten fancy with providers and such...I've just been scanning /sdcard and directly refering to the files :)
Mar 10 05:25:09 <jasta> it's clearly not my usage; this class is just really broken.
Mar 10 05:25:29 <zhobbs> yeah, I believe it
Mar 10 05:25:44 <zhobbs> has a ways to go
Mar 10 05:26:12 <jasta> yup sure enough
Mar 10 05:26:28 <jasta> if i break it out into new MediaPlayer() and do my own query on _data, then setDataSource with that path it works fine
Mar 10 05:26:56 <jasta> i am so pissed.  yesterday was highly productive and now i've wasted almost an entire day deciphering these horrible bugs
Mar 10 05:27:04 <jasta> MediaPlayer sucks ;P
Mar 10 05:28:17 <jasta> also, the streaming support is all fucked up
Mar 10 05:30:08 <zhobbs> yeah, that sucks also
Mar 10 05:32:45 <muthu> agreed, MediaPlayer is in a very bad shape
Mar 10 05:33:13 <muthu> and also the videoview
Mar 10 05:33:34 <muthu> no controls in videoview..
Mar 10 05:33:44 <jerkface03> lol yes i noticed problems with media player when m5 got dropped
Mar 10 05:34:06 <jerkface03> problems aka hardcrashes
Mar 10 05:37:58 <muthu> i am yet to see the value add that videoview provides over mediaplayer
Mar 10 05:45:54 <jasta> W/AudioTrack( 1327): *** SERIOUS WARNING *** obtainBuffer() timed out but didn't need to be locked. We recovered, but this shouldn't happen (user=00000100, server=00000001)
Mar 10 05:45:57 <jasta> ?
Mar 10 06:26:22 <niket> Hi, I am new to android app....I would like to know how to draw arrow in particular degree/direction. Mainly I want to display arrow in google map showing direction of my movement or anything like that
Mar 10 06:26:32 <niket> can anyone help me?
Mar 10 06:27:01 <zhobbs> you can just create an arrow, stick in in res/drawable and then rotate/draw it on screen
Mar 10 06:27:18 <niket> how to create arrow
Mar 10 06:27:27 <zhobbs> in photoshop or gimp, etc
Mar 10 06:27:32 <niket> is it like any png image
Mar 10 06:27:37 <zhobbs> yeah
Mar 10 06:28:21 <niket> oh good..what is api to rotate the image based on degree? any clue
Mar 10 06:28:35 <jerkface03> can't you just use ogl to do that?
Mar 10 06:28:50 <niket> ogl?
Mar 10 06:28:58 <jerkface03> opengl?
Mar 10 06:29:30 <romainguy> OpenGL?
Mar 10 06:29:34 <romainguy> that's a bit overkill
Mar 10 06:29:41 <zhobbs> I would just use Canvas.rotate()
Mar 10 06:29:46 <romainguy> or even simpler
Mar 10 06:29:51 <romainguy> you can use a RotateDrawable
Mar 10 06:29:58 <romainguy> you can even define the rotate drawable from XML
Mar 10 06:30:04 <niket> thanks again zhobbs for helping me
Mar 10 06:30:12 <romainguy> (the spinning progress indicator is just a rotate drawable for instance)
Mar 10 06:30:14 <niket> I will try that
Mar 10 06:37:20 <chaosvoyager> Oly crap, Meziu was pulled from CeBIT not because they have a product that works like the iPhone, but because they didn't have an MP3 license!
Mar 10 06:37:42 <zhobbs> doh
Mar 10 06:41:00 <romainguy__> that's pretty silly of them
Mar 10 06:41:17 <chaosvoyager> Thank Ted that wasn't me, because it would be bad enough I'd call them them Nazis, but CeBIT is in Germany this year too. It wouldn't go over well.
Mar 10 06:42:15 <chaosvoyager> Oh, and 'they' want 2% of any revenue I generate from music I distribute in the format.
Mar 10 06:43:11 <chaosvoyager> So, encoders, decoders, and even using the format to distribute work is taxed.
Mar 10 06:43:55 <chaosvoyager> THIS (media formats) is what's going to kill open source solutions for Joe Average.
Mar 10 06:44:08 <chaosvoyager> ...baah, I'm better now, back to coding.
Mar 10 09:02:58 <zhobbs> romainguy_: is there any significant performance improvement by not using ViewInflate in an adapter vs creating the view in code?
Mar 10 09:04:02 <romainguy> it is certainly faster not using ViewInflate
Mar 10 09:04:04 <romainguy> but
Mar 10 09:04:19 <romainguy> if you use the convert view correctly you should be using ViewInflate only a few times total
Mar 10 09:04:26 <romainguy> so I wouldn't bother about this
Mar 10 09:04:29 <zhobbs> k
Mar 10 09:05:23 <chaosvoyager> How muck faster?
Mar 10 09:05:34 <zhobbs> is this using it correctly?  TextView txt = (TextView) convertView.findViewById(R.id.text1);;
Mar 10 09:05:34 <zhobbs> 			txt.setText(value);
Mar 10 09:07:16 <romainguy> chaosvoyager: No XML parsing and no reflection
Mar 10 09:07:31 <romainguy> zhobbs: yes, if you first check that convertView is not null :))
Mar 10 09:07:46 <chaosvoyager> Ah.
Mar 10 09:07:47 <romainguy> the pattern is usually:
Mar 10 09:07:47 <jerkface03> romainguy: ?? reflection apis are not built yet in android?
Mar 10 09:07:57 <romainguy> if (convertView != null) {
Mar 10 09:08:03 <romainguy>   convertView = ViewInflate....;
Mar 10 09:08:04 <romainguy> }
Mar 10 09:08:10 <romainguy> convertView.setXXXX;
Mar 10 09:08:12 <romainguy> return convertView
Mar 10 09:08:14 <zhobbs> romainguy: yeah I check not null
Mar 10 09:08:18 <romainguy> jerkface03: they certainly are...
Mar 10 09:08:25 <jerkface03> romainguy: do you ever sleep?
Mar 10 09:08:33 <romainguy> jerkface03: the XML layout files are loaded through reflection
Mar 10 09:09:16 <jerkface03> romainguy: aye.
Mar 10 09:10:36 <chaosvoyager> Which means, in 'theory', that code could also be SAVED to XML layout files.
Mar 10 09:10:56 <romainguy> chaosvoyager: that you could dump a View hierarchy to XML files?
Mar 10 09:11:06 <romainguy> sure, why couldn't you?
Mar 10 09:11:23 <romainguy> I don't quite see the point of doing such a thing though :)
Mar 10 09:19:28 <chaosvoyager> romainguy: Really? Reflection allows any programatic change in the scene graph to be reflected in the layout XML, and visa versa. This is the core of every successful layout editor I know of, from WinForms to HTML. I can't think of one that doesn't have a code/view split.
Mar 10 09:22:43 <romainguy_> chaosvoyager: It can perfectly be achieved without reflection
Mar 10 09:23:13 <romainguy_> chaosvoyager: But makes it easier sure :)
Mar 10 09:23:41 <romainguy_> But if you are talking about a UI designer, the fact that the Android runtime supports reflection or not is irrelevant
Mar 10 09:23:51 <romainguy_> Since such a UI designer would run outside of the said runtime
Mar 10 09:26:37 <romainguy_> anyway
Mar 10 09:26:39 <romainguy_> time for bed
Mar 10 09:26:45 <zhobbs> good night
Mar 10 09:27:35 <chaosvoyager> Blah! I wasn't done with my reply 0_0 (nor did I have time to say goodnight).
Mar 10 09:27:49 <zhobbs> :)
Mar 10 09:28:43 <chaosvoyager> He's the vbisual interface guy for this project, right?
Mar 10 09:29:10 <zhobbs> yeah, coding not graphical design though
Mar 10 09:33:57 <chaosvoyager> *sigh* well, I guess enabling the user to configure the layout of an application (or Mr Potato Head game) is not in the Android plan.
Mar 10 09:34:18 <chaosvoyager> However, that bed suggestion sounds peachy.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Mar 10 09:59:57 2008