**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Mar 13 02:59:57 2008
Mar 13 03:03:55 <jasta> alright, hacking time :)
Mar 13 04:31:52 <muthu> Thu Mar 13 09:57:34 IST 2008
Mar 13 04:32:43 <muthu> morning (yaaawwwn)
Mar 13 04:33:39 <muthu> this is worse than zuckerberg ;)
Mar 13 04:33:52 <chaosvoyager> nani?
Mar 13 04:34:04 <muthu> morning chaos
Mar 13 04:34:18 <muthu> poor sarah.. i feel sorry for her
Mar 13 04:35:04 <jerkface03> what?
Mar 13 04:35:06 <chaosvoyager> Eh? I really haven't been following, is this related to that Spitzer tyhing?
Mar 13 04:36:13 <muthu> not the spitzer
Mar 13 04:36:33 <muthu> this is the sxsw interview - sarah lacy with mark zuckerberg
Mar 13 04:36:59 <muthu> and the blogosphere went witchhunting for sarah as someone put it
Mar 13 04:37:22 <muthu> allegedly she did a very *boring* and *self-indulgent* (flirty?) interview
Mar 13 04:38:19 <muthu> http://valleywag.com/tech/sarah-lacy/
Mar 13 04:39:54 <chaosvoyager> Where is Sacha Baron Cohen when you need him?
Mar 13 04:40:16 <romainguy__> wow
Mar 13 04:40:23 <romainguy__> I just wrote code for 2 hours straight
Mar 13 04:40:28 <romainguy__> it compiled on the first try
Mar 13 04:40:34 <romainguy__> and better yet, it ran correctly on the first try
Mar 13 04:40:38 <romainguy__> doesn't happen very often ^^
Mar 13 04:40:45 <jerkface03> kodak moment
Mar 13 04:40:57 <muthu> romain: how many lines?
Mar 13 04:41:18 <romainguy> a little less than 1,000
Mar 13 04:41:24 <muthu> woah
Mar 13 04:41:36 <muthu> hail the IDE's ;)
Mar 13 04:41:41 <romainguy> they help :))
Mar 13 04:41:49 <jasta> romainguy: i'm writing some code right now that i suspect might be eligible for that :)
Mar 13 04:41:54 <romainguy> uhuh
Mar 13 04:41:57 <jasta> i'm coding very, very slowly :)
Mar 13 04:42:14 <romainguy> yeah, I have to admit that code wasn't too complicated, it was some memory management, caches, etc.
Mar 13 04:42:37 <muthu> without an IDE it would be impossible
Mar 13 04:42:44 <jasta> muthu: it would?
Mar 13 04:42:56 <muthu> what do you think?
Mar 13 04:43:08 <romainguy> for the compile at first try, yeah they help a lot
Mar 13 04:43:17 <muthu> right
Mar 13 04:43:23 <muthu> i've heard stories though
Mar 13 04:43:42 <muthu> how someone compiled and ran like a 3000 liner in the first try
Mar 13 04:43:46 <jasta> muthu: i don't generally use an IDE to program, and in my 10 years of doing so, I have certainly written correct code on first try at least once ;)
Mar 13 04:44:02 <muthu> the story must be about jasta then ;)
Mar 13 04:44:40 <jasta> no, it's about stopping to understand everything you don't understand instead of ignoring all the details that are inconvenient.
Mar 13 04:45:18 <jasta> but even then, it's still a rare thing to do correctly :)
Mar 13 04:45:27 <muthu> yes, in the first try atleast
Mar 13 04:45:33 <jasta> an IDE has not much to do with it, is my point.
Mar 13 04:46:09 <muthu> my point is, the first try compilation has become trivial since IDE's came along
Mar 13 04:46:48 <jasta> not really.  a lot of IDEs compile on the fly, so if you ever see it show that red squiggly, you failed to write code correctly on first compile :)
Mar 13 04:46:56 <Aetmos> jasta: Eclipse shows errors as you type, how can it not have anything to do with it?
Mar 13 04:46:58 <jasta> i'd say, it's only possible with that feature off or missing ;)
Mar 13 04:47:25 <muthu> jasta: woah now you are raising the bar
Mar 13 04:47:32 <jasta> like i said, i use vim.
Mar 13 04:47:33 <jasta> ;)
Mar 13 04:47:41 <muthu> you want to type code correctly on the first try
Mar 13 04:47:52 <jasta> mere mortals have done it
Mar 13 04:48:11 <muthu> yes i know
Mar 13 04:49:04 <jasta> but still, having correct syntax and consistent nomenclature is not as impressive as having it work first try, which isn't up to the IDE :)
Mar 13 04:49:05 <Aetmos> getting 3000 lines of code right on the first try is easy if you pick the right code...
Mar 13 04:49:34 <Aetmos> printf("hi");
Mar 13 04:49:38 <Aetmos> printf("hi");
Mar 13 04:49:43 <Aetmos> printf("hi");
Mar 13 04:49:48 <Aetmos> thats' 3
Mar 13 04:49:52 <Aetmos> that's
Mar 13 04:49:56 <jasta> i couldn't type printf("hi"); so many hundreds of time without typoing ;)
Mar 13 04:50:00 <jasta> you can't even type 4 lines without it :)
Mar 13 04:50:05 <Aetmos> see, I can't even get English right on the first try
Mar 13 04:50:07 <muthu> aetmos: you win the challenge!
Mar 13 04:50:24 <Aetmos> sweet
Mar 13 04:50:28 <Aetmos> what do I win?
Mar 13 04:50:44 * Aetmos hopes for a porsche
Mar 13 04:50:51 * Aetmos crosses his fingers
Mar 13 04:51:00 <chaosvoyager> So is having it compile on the first try without an IDE due to skill or chance?
Mar 13 04:51:02 * Aetmos shakes with anticipation
Mar 13 04:51:30 <jasta> chaosvoyager: neither, familiarity :)
Mar 13 04:51:46 <jasta> well, and chance :)
Mar 13 04:51:51 <Aetmos> I'd say it's mostly luck...I mean, 95% of bugs I get are things I know immediately what I did wrong....
Mar 13 04:51:58 <muthu> aetmos: check your junk folder.. the prize is on the way
Mar 13 04:52:04 <Aetmos> yes!
Mar 13 04:52:18 <Aetmos> ew!
Mar 13 04:52:24 <jasta> you guys have now distracted me sufficiently that i am sure to not return to my code and have it work first try :)
Mar 13 04:52:38 <Aetmos> that was the idea
Mar 13 04:52:46 <muthu> yup.. that's the idea
Mar 13 04:52:53 <muthu> mission accomplished :)
Mar 13 04:53:07 <jasta> if you'll recall, romain hadn't done a lot of talking on #android ;P
Mar 13 04:53:32 <muthu> over the last few days is quiet
Mar 13 04:53:42 <romainguy> jasta: that's because you guys always talk about boring things like content providers, intent receivers, etc. :)
Mar 13 04:54:00 <jasta> muthu: must be getting ready for a new SDK release.  they always get REAL quiet right before a big deadline.
Mar 13 04:54:25 <muthu> i don't think they'll do it before the challenge
Mar 13 04:54:41 <jasta> Dan kinda spilled the beans that they plan to have 1 more release before the 15th.
Mar 13 04:54:45 <jasta> or, they hope to.
Mar 13 04:54:47 <jasta> but may not
Mar 13 04:54:53 <muthu> unlikely
Mar 13 04:55:06 <romainguy> It could just be a maintenance release
Mar 13 04:55:06 <jasta> what makes you so certain?
Mar 13 04:55:23 <jasta> maybe they'll fix the stupid MediaPlayer :)
Mar 13 04:55:47 <muthu> the mediaplayer is supposed to work in the earlier revisions
Mar 13 04:55:55 <muthu> m3 or so
Mar 13 04:56:06 <muthu> that's what i gathered from the groups
Mar 13 04:59:00 <jasta> speaking of rare, i just played a game of free cell that didn't require me to put a single card on a free cell
Mar 13 04:59:04 <jasta> that was really weird
Mar 13 04:59:21 <jasta> the only reason i had to was in order to shuffle cards around
Mar 13 04:59:38 <jasta> (which the card game does for me)
Mar 13 05:01:08 <muthu> jasta: did you try the earlier versions for mediaplayer?
Mar 13 05:01:10 * duey starts the project
Mar 13 05:01:14 <jasta> muthu: No.
Mar 13 05:01:15 <jasta> duey: ?
Mar 13 05:01:21 <muthu> try them
Mar 13 05:01:24 <duey> got to start some time right
Mar 13 05:01:36 <jasta> muthu: can't be bothered.  besides, what does that help me?
Mar 13 05:01:39 <jasta> duey: start what?
Mar 13 05:01:47 <duey> android prject
Mar 13 05:01:49 <duey> duh
Mar 13 05:02:04 <muthu> too early duey
Mar 13 05:02:10 <duey> yeah i was thinking the same thing
Mar 13 05:02:13 <jasta> duey: what's your project?
Mar 13 05:02:15 <duey> might wait another week
Mar 13 05:02:19 <duey> ocr..
Mar 13 05:02:22 <duey> translation
Mar 13 05:02:34 <duey> im just going to submit a basic prototype
Mar 13 05:02:39 <duey> dont care about winning that much
Mar 13 05:02:44 <muthu> all the preview iphone apps, games etc., built from 2 days to 2 weeks max
Mar 13 05:02:48 <duey> otherwise i would of started ages ago
Mar 13 05:03:10 <muthu> a working prototype should be good enough
Mar 13 05:03:12 <romainguy> damn I hate this wait
Mar 13 05:03:16 <romainguy> my Mac Pro still hasn't shipped
Mar 13 05:03:23 <romainguy> but I received the 8 GB of RAM
Mar 13 05:03:27 <duey> haha
Mar 13 05:03:27 <romainguy> they are taunting me on my desk
Mar 13 05:03:48 <muthu> 8GB??
Mar 13 05:03:56 <muthu> WOW!
Mar 13 05:03:58 <duey> big photos
Mar 13 05:04:05 <romainguy> muthu: the MacPro comes with 2 more :)
Mar 13 05:04:10 <muthu> woah
Mar 13 05:04:26 <duey> how big are RAW images usually?
Mar 13 05:04:28 <duey> (file size)
Mar 13 05:04:39 <romainguy> 8 to 12 MB I would say
Mar 13 05:04:43 <duey> oh ok
Mar 13 05:04:45 <romainguy> depending on the file format, camera, etc.
Mar 13 05:04:57 <romainguy> but the .psd I create from the RAW are much much bigger
Mar 13 05:05:02 <duey> right
Mar 13 05:05:10 <romainguy> for instance the one I did for the last photo I posted on Flickr was about 90 MB
Mar 13 05:05:17 <duey> O.o
Mar 13 05:05:32 <muthu> o.O
Mar 13 05:05:33 <romainguy> well, 8 Mpixels and as soon as you start using layers...
Mar 13 05:05:38 <duey> yeah
Mar 13 05:05:39 <romainguy> and it's 16 bits per color component
Mar 13 05:06:32 <duey> proposal proof reading time
Mar 13 05:07:30 <muthu> duey: have you tried the iphone sdk?
Mar 13 05:07:37 <duey> na
Mar 13 05:07:48 <muthu> why not?
Mar 13 05:07:55 <duey> can't be bothered downloading 2GB worth of sdk
Mar 13 05:08:10 <chaosvoyager> ...
Mar 13 05:08:21 <duey> internets are not fast here
Mar 13 05:08:22 <muthu> $100M iFund available
Mar 13 05:08:23 <f00f-> if it doesn't come in a tarball, forget it.
Mar 13 05:08:38 <duey> muthu, lol
Mar 13 05:08:42 <duey> read more about it
Mar 13 05:08:48 <muthu> what?
Mar 13 05:08:50 <duey> its not free money
Mar 13 05:09:00 <chaosvoyager> tarball?!? You're kidding me, right?
Mar 13 05:09:17 <f00f-> well i'll accept a zip, but that's it :)
Mar 13 05:09:28 <chaosvoyager> Oh, ok then :)
Mar 13 05:09:43 <f00f-> i mean, .dmg?? if you want to woo developers, at least give me an extension that i'm familiar with.
Mar 13 05:10:04 <chaosvoyager> ...
Mar 13 05:10:07 <f00f-> i was seriously wanting to check it out, but seems to discourage non-apple folks at this time
Mar 13 05:10:16 <romainguy> errr...
Mar 13 05:10:20 <muthu> yes.. the cater only to macs
Mar 13 05:10:55 <muthu> either you are on apple side.. or you are on the other side
Mar 13 05:11:14 <f00f-> well, grass is greener right :P
Mar 13 05:11:21 <f00f-> it'll always be tha way
Mar 13 05:11:25 <f00f-> we're humans
Mar 13 05:11:31 <muthu> agree
Mar 13 05:11:40 <muthu> sj has a vision
Mar 13 05:11:49 <muthu> and he does it his way
Mar 13 05:12:53 <romainguy> WOOOOOHOOO
Mar 13 05:12:55 <romainguy> finally
Mar 13 05:12:56 <romainguy> it's working
Mar 13 05:12:57 <romainguy> raah
Mar 13 05:13:00 <romainguy> I can stop now
Mar 13 05:13:12 <muthu> http://rummble.com is cool
Mar 13 05:13:35 <muthu> lot of exciting things happening in mobile space
Mar 13 05:13:41 <chaosvoyager> He's created an ecosystem where independent software developers can sell their applications through a trusted source. It's like Steam, but broader in scope.  And it's not going to be limited to the iPhone.
Mar 13 05:14:05 <chaosvoyager> Screw whatever else, this is huge.
Mar 13 05:14:06 <duey> s/he/army of advisors
Mar 13 05:14:24 <chaosvoyager> At least he takes advice :P
Mar 13 05:14:34 <muthu> apple has the device, the o's and the core apps
Mar 13 05:14:46 <muthu> now they have the apple store for the 3rd party apps
Mar 13 05:15:03 <duey> i like apple and all and im pretty fanboi
Mar 13 05:15:13 <duey> but i dont like sj all that much
Mar 13 05:15:36 <muthu> i heard sj is a tough guy
Mar 13 05:15:42 <chaosvoyager> Yes, he's an asshole.
Mar 13 05:15:49 <duey> ^^
Mar 13 05:15:50 <muthu> all geeks are!
Mar 13 05:15:54 <chaosvoyager> Maybe less so now, but just maybe.
Mar 13 05:16:06 <f00f-> my friend saw him in the apple cafeteria, and he was always scared to approach him.
Mar 13 05:16:26 <f00f-> he told me one, someone had said something to steve in an elevator, and was promptly fired th enext day. but he's an overall nice guy.
Mar 13 05:16:34 <duey> i hear you don't say hi if you work there and he walks past
Mar 13 05:16:58 <muthu> sj likes you to code
Mar 13 05:17:08 <chaosvoyager> I've heard similar things about George Lucas.
Mar 13 05:17:19 <romainguy> I met George Lucas briefly this summer ^^
Mar 13 05:17:33 <muthu> romain: where?
Mar 13 05:17:39 <romainguy> at the skywalker ranch
Mar 13 05:17:44 <romainguy> my girlfriend works at ILM
Mar 13 05:17:50 <muthu> great
Mar 13 05:18:12 <muthu> so now we can see your sunset photographs in his next movie then :)
Mar 13 05:18:23 <romainguy> lol
Mar 13 05:18:27 <romainguy> yeaaah... not quite :))
Mar 13 05:18:38 <chaosvoyager> Has she heard the 'don't make eye contact with Lucas' stories?
Mar 13 05:18:47 <muthu> everyone has some movie aspirations!
Mar 13 05:19:10 <romainguy> muthu: I am actually waiting for a National Geographic book with 2 of my pictures inside :))
Mar 13 05:19:18 <muthu> cool
Mar 13 05:19:39 <muthu> the sunset snaps looked professional
Mar 13 05:19:43 <romainguy> thanks :)
Mar 13 05:20:38 <muthu> is the android team the focus of google, now?
Mar 13 05:20:52 <romainguy> I don't really know :)
Mar 13 05:21:01 <romainguy> It's hard to say since I've only been in the Android team
Mar 13 05:21:10 <romainguy> and it feels like being in a startup within Google
Mar 13 05:21:11 <muthu> no special weekend parties yet?
Mar 13 05:21:36 <muthu> android is a big major step for google, imho
Mar 13 05:21:38 <duey> at least your not scanning books all day
Mar 13 05:21:42 <duey> zzz that would be
Mar 13 05:22:10 <muthu> google wants to be the microsoft of mobile devices
Mar 13 05:22:18 <romainguy> duey: funnyyou say that
Mar 13 05:22:33 <romainguy> my first 2 weeks at Google I was actually in the Google books projects
Mar 13 05:22:37 <duey> haha
Mar 13 05:23:02 <romainguy> I got the hell out of there as fast as I could :)
Mar 13 05:23:11 <chaosvoyager> Hey, how do I get my book on Google Books?
Mar 13 05:23:12 <duey> I would hope so
Mar 13 05:23:26 <duey> chaosvoyager, they have a link on books.google.com
Mar 13 05:23:41 <muthu> chaos: what's your book?
Mar 13 05:23:51 <chaosvoyager> I know, but I was wondering if there was ahn inside track :)
Mar 13 05:24:00 <romainguy> chaosvoyager: If I knew I would add mine :)
Mar 13 05:24:24 <duey> sneak it into the pile
Mar 13 05:24:41 <muthu> romain: is there android team in india?
Mar 13 05:24:57 <romainguy> Can't answer that question
Mar 13 05:25:06 <muthu> arggh
Mar 13 05:25:35 <muthu> you really think people are watching here ;)
Mar 13 05:25:49 <duey> ...
Mar 13 05:26:10 <f00f-> muthu: of course, everyone is in india these days?
Mar 13 05:26:11 <romainguy> muthu: :)
Mar 13 05:26:26 <f00f-> i had an ethernet problem today, and who did i get to talk to? a support lady in india!
Mar 13 05:26:31 <duey> lol
Mar 13 05:26:38 <f00f-> i doubt she understood me when i said i was having problems obtaining a 'dhcp lease'...
Mar 13 05:28:33 <muthu> yeah lot of bpo's here..
Mar 13 05:28:54 <muthu> google for example is only in bangalore and hyderabad down south
Mar 13 05:29:09 <muthu> i don't why they ignored chennai
Mar 13 05:30:25 <muthu> cheap mundane work comes here.. bright innovative minds goes there.. that's the way india works for now
Mar 13 05:31:21 <duey> lots of people in india
Mar 13 05:31:31 <muthu> 1.4 billion or so
Mar 13 05:31:43 <duey> surely an internal market IT will get larger
Mar 13 05:31:48 <muthu> the first thing any foreigner coming to india will notice is.. the people!
Mar 13 05:32:03 <duey> s/an/the
Mar 13 05:32:11 <duey> internal it market
Mar 13 05:32:19 <duey> screwed that sentance up
Mar 13 05:32:24 <muthu> its people everywhere.. crowds.. and of course the cows ;)
Mar 13 05:32:51 <muthu> and the first thing i notice when i land in US is.. silence
Mar 13 05:33:01 <duey> heh
Mar 13 05:33:07 <duey> i think US is hugely populated
Mar 13 05:33:11 <duey> NZ only has 4mill..
Mar 13 05:33:42 <muthu> you should also look at the area.. NZ is small
Mar 13 05:33:43 <chaosvoyager> We just like collecting in cities to more effeciently annoy each other :P
Mar 13 05:33:51 <duey> muthu, its not though
Mar 13 05:33:57 <duey> in terms of area its fairly large
Mar 13 05:34:01 <duey> not large like usa
Mar 13 05:34:08 <duey> but compared to other countries
Mar 13 05:34:14 <muthu> right
Mar 13 05:35:06 <muthu> i love the way people or connected now
Mar 13 05:35:12 <muthu> /or/are
Mar 13 05:36:00 <muthu> and able to share ideas
Mar 13 05:36:16 <muthu> and mobile would do it more
Mar 13 05:49:03 <f00f-> bah, hecl is ugly
Mar 13 05:49:12 <f00f-> while { < $i 10 } {
Mar 13 05:49:14 <f00f-> wtf?
Mar 13 05:49:23 <f00f-> http://www.hecl.org/examples/
Mar 13 05:49:32 <f00f-> please tell me that is a typo
Mar 13 05:50:52 <chaosvoyager> Heh.
Mar 13 05:52:57 <chaosvoyager> What about "While $i < 10"?
Mar 13 05:53:33 <f00f-> that would make more sense to me.
Mar 13 05:53:48 <f00f-> i guess "< $i 10" is much faster/easier for the lexer
Mar 13 05:53:59 <f00f-> but come on, don't sacrifice readability for performance like that
Mar 13 05:54:26 <chaosvoyager> Hell yes. Computers are our tools, not the other way around.
Mar 13 05:54:32 <Hyphenex> Are there any phones that run android now? (and all well and stable) for those of us who can't wait?
Mar 13 05:55:43 <f00f-> Hyphenex:  learn to wait buddy, or talk to some of the cutting edge hardware folks that have android running on atari's and my wristwatches
Mar 13 05:55:59 <f00f-> chaosvoyager: i would much rather have liked to see a Lua implementation
Mar 13 05:56:04 <f00f-> as it's very well suited for scripting
Mar 13 05:56:33 <f00f-> there's already a Lua VM implementation for J2ME CLDC 1.1
Mar 13 05:57:05 <f00f-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_programming_language
Mar 13 05:57:17 <f00f-> even romainguy_ 's Lightroom uses Lua
Mar 13 05:58:04 <f00f-> wow
Mar 13 05:58:07 <f00f-> even wireshark uses it
Mar 13 05:59:06 <chaosvoyager> f00f: Lua's cool. My current fave though is Stackless Python. Not that that's better than Lua. Quite frankly I'm unsatisfied with most of the available languages, but I find that I'm less pissed off when using it.
Mar 13 05:59:44 <f00f-> i agree that python's syntax makes it and its type of languages well-suited for scripting
Mar 13 06:00:27 <f00f-> there's so much stuff out there, one can barely keep up
Mar 13 06:00:58 <chaosvoyager> EVE Online uses Stackless.
Mar 13 06:01:59 <chaosvoyager> Though Second Life uses Mono?!? Granted, that's language independent, but I'm still not sure that decision.
Mar 13 06:02:10 <chaosvoyager> Ironically, WebSphere uses Jython.
Mar 13 06:02:44 <f00f-> heh
Mar 13 06:03:11 <f00f-> i didn't know offical python was known as CPython
Mar 13 06:03:31 <Kraln> I like tcl
Mar 13 06:04:23 <chaosvoyager> Yep. CPython, Stackless Python, IronPython, and Jython. And all slightly different, but not that bqadly so.
Mar 13 06:05:03 <chaosvoyager> WebSpere's other language is jacl (Java tcl).
Mar 13 06:06:05 <muthu> how about groovy?
Mar 13 06:07:53 <chaosvoyager> Groovy annoys me, but I can't for the life of me remember why. Had something to do with how very subtile syntax differences led to much different behavior, might have changed and be worth checking out again though.
Mar 13 06:09:56 <muthu> lately groovy has picked up
Mar 13 06:10:30 <chaosvoyager> Sun's new pet is JavaFX, or rather JavaFXScript. Not to be confused wityh JavaScript, which was renamed from ActiveScript back when Netscape still owned it in an attempt to co-brand.
Mar 13 06:11:51 <muthu> JavaFX is it browser based?
Mar 13 06:12:54 <chaosvoyager> Not really, just similar names. It still runs in a JVM or as an applet.
Mar 13 06:13:21 <chaosvoyager> And it's got this mobile component also called JavaFX.
Mar 13 06:13:36 <muthu> right
Mar 13 06:13:43 <chaosvoyager> So JavaFX is like a set of related technologies.
Mar 13 06:14:01 <muthu> android supports javafx?
Mar 13 06:14:16 <chaosvoyager> No.........t yet.
Mar 13 06:14:39 <chaosvoyager> I have no doubt that once Android is open, it will support everything.
Mar 13 06:14:53 <muthu> yes
Mar 13 06:15:15 <chaosvoyager> But it's also one of the things that concerns me. Consistency is really important on mobile dervices.
Mar 13 06:15:21 <muthu> i have this query
Mar 13 06:15:33 <muthu> if flash is going to be in all mobiles
Mar 13 06:15:44 <muthu> why are we worried about mobile o/s?
Mar 13 06:16:06 <chaosvoyager> Good question.
Mar 13 06:16:11 <muthu> why can't we just program flash, and expect it to run in every mobile?
Mar 13 06:17:27 <muthu> flash will become the defacto mobile o/s then
Mar 13 06:17:27 <duey> flash isn't exactly lightweight
Mar 13 06:17:41 <chaosvoyager> Not currently at least.
Mar 13 06:18:06 <muthu> i have this nagging feeling that adobe is going to take over
Mar 13 06:18:19 <muthu> just like they won the browser wars
Mar 13 06:18:30 <duey> flash stills needs a platform to run on
Mar 13 06:18:49 <muthu> yeah.. they'll make it run on all mobile o/s
Mar 13 06:18:56 <muthu> just like flash now runs in all browsers
Mar 13 06:19:03 <muthu> smart and effective!
Mar 13 06:19:13 <duey> well apple have said no
Mar 13 06:19:23 <muthu> hmm.. that's for now
Mar 13 06:19:50 <duey> and i have seen flash choke on desktops..
Mar 13 06:19:52 <muthu> and apple can't stop flash or java coming in from an iphone store
Mar 13 06:21:06 <muthu> just like the browser incompatabilities, we now have mobile o/s incompatabilities
Mar 13 06:21:52 <muthu> adobe was smart on the Internet wave.. may be they'll be the same on the mobile wave
Mar 13 06:21:53 <duey> im sure apple have talked to adobe about this
Mar 13 06:22:01 <duey> and im sure apple and adobe are on the same step
Mar 13 06:22:20 <muthu> yes, there are reports adobe is already working on the iphone version
Mar 13 06:22:37 <chaosvoyager> If there's one thing I really like about mobile platforms, it's that programmers and compilers can't be as lazy as they are when writing for desktops :P
Mar 13 06:23:12 <duey> yeah but with internet enabled devices they can just offload all the hard stuff onto a web service ;)
Mar 13 06:23:26 <muthu> note to self: i need to closely watch the adobe thing
Mar 13 06:23:40 <chaosvoyager> duey: Yeah, that too.
Mar 13 06:23:53 <chaosvoyager> duey: which works in Google's favor.
Mar 13 06:23:57 <duey> indeed
Mar 13 06:24:47 <muthu> right now if someone said, program me and you'll run in every mobile - i'll take it anyday
Mar 13 06:25:02 <duey> ?
Mar 13 06:25:26 <muthu> is it there?
Mar 13 06:25:31 <duey> java
Mar 13 06:25:50 <muthu> i heard horror stories about javame
Mar 13 06:26:05 <duey> its what most use
Mar 13 06:26:11 <muthu> how incompatible they are between devices
Mar 13 06:26:53 <muthu> and i guess windows mobile does not have java
Mar 13 06:27:02 <duey> most devices run symbian
Mar 13 06:27:09 <duey> at least a large number of them
Mar 13 06:27:29 <muthu> iphone does not
Mar 13 06:27:44 <muthu> so adobe seems to be the common factor again
Mar 13 06:36:43 <muthu> i understand android wants to be that single o/s which is running in every mobile
Mar 13 06:50:04 <jasta> lol i suck.  i had no idea GLib offers a thread pool API :)
Mar 13 06:50:08 <jasta> i basically implemented this :(
Mar 13 06:50:30 <jasta> although mine was buggy and crappy
Mar 13 06:51:36 <muthu> jasta: is adobe the mobile savior?
Mar 13 06:51:47 <muthu> give me your opinion
Mar 13 06:51:58 <jasta> what?
Mar 13 06:52:07 <muthu> i have a requirement to build an app, which is targeted for all mobiles that exist now
Mar 13 06:52:13 <muthu> what should i program?
Mar 13 06:52:27 <jasta> uhh.
Mar 13 06:52:42 <muthu> android is future
Mar 13 06:52:48 <muthu> i'm asking for the present
Mar 13 06:53:00 <jasta> that is a very pointed question.
Mar 13 06:53:08 <muthu> i'm just confused
Mar 13 06:53:30 <muthu> i'm in talks with this client, and he basically says he needs to run this everywhere
Mar 13 06:53:33 <jasta> if you truly mean all platforms, then you should use WAP if possible.
Mar 13 06:53:37 <chaosvoyager> The trick is not to write once, but to write simply enough that it becomes easy to rewrite.
Mar 13 06:54:00 <muthu> the client is also saying WAP
Mar 13 06:54:12 <jasta> if WAP is not appropriate, then you should get ready to spend the next 10 years of your life doing this :)
Mar 13 06:54:26 <muthu> true :)
Mar 13 06:54:41 <jasta> there are a lot of mobile platforms out there, many of which HIGHLY incompatible.  Even J2ME is not a good bet.  It is widely incompatible from handset to handset.
Mar 13 06:54:52 <jasta> WAP is really the only one that is potentially portable.
Mar 13 06:54:57 <jasta> But it is bad :)
Mar 13 06:55:27 <muthu> yeah i hate WAP as of now, and i also feel adobe might have a few tricks.. i haven't checked them out completely
Mar 13 06:55:39 <jasta> What does Adobe have to do with anything?
Mar 13 06:55:58 <muthu> don't they have a player or something which runs in all mobile?
Mar 13 06:56:09 <jasta> huh?
Mar 13 06:56:38 <muthu> i checked their site, and am lost in the flash xxx products they have
Mar 13 06:56:56 <muthu> flash lite, flash cast, flash reader ...
Mar 13 06:57:04 <jasta> FLASH is not well supported on any phone, let alone all.
Mar 13 06:57:27 <muthu> ok
Mar 13 06:57:39 <muthu> so its WAP and J2ME as of now.. right?
Mar 13 06:58:25 <jasta> I guess, but J2ME is not very portable either.
Mar 13 06:58:38 <muthu> even WAP has its quirks
Mar 13 06:59:15 <muthu> nokia supports flash lite
Mar 13 07:00:02 <jasta> Adobe is a curious creature.  They seem to be very confused by what the mobile industry wants.
Mar 13 07:00:38 <muthu> right.. their website shows that atleast from a mobile pov
Mar 13 07:00:49 <muthu> can't seem to get any valuable info
Mar 13 07:00:56 <jasta> They aren't outright ignoring the mobile industry, they just seem to be misunderstanding it.
Mar 13 07:01:00 <jerkface03> flash lite is a joke
Mar 13 07:01:16 <jerkface03> it has major major bugs
Mar 13 07:01:23 <muthu> hmmm
Mar 13 07:01:36 <muthu> i guess WAP it is
Mar 13 07:01:37 <jerkface03> such as ignoring an operation
Mar 13 07:01:54 <chaosvoyager> muthu: Just make sure your client understands the scope of the work involved, otherwise they may become unnecessarily frustrated with you.
Mar 13 07:02:14 <muthu> true.. thanks for the suggestion chaos
Mar 13 07:03:01 <muthu> on the plus side.. they also want it on android
Mar 13 07:03:16 <muthu> they just want ALL device :)
Mar 13 07:03:31 <jasta> they really need to understand what "ALL" devices means.
Mar 13 07:03:35 <chaosvoyager> Maybe, just write it for Android, then wait for it to be ported :)
Mar 13 07:03:57 <muthu> ha come on
Mar 13 07:04:08 <jasta> muthu: You should be firm that their wishes are not consistent with reality.  If all they want is some stupid WAP set of pages, then fine, give it to them.
Mar 13 07:04:13 <muthu> hobbyists can wait, not real business
Mar 13 07:04:23 <jasta> If they think they are getting a robust application framework, tell them to look elsewhere.
Mar 13 07:04:38 <muthu> jasta: that's where i'm torn
Mar 13 07:04:41 <chaosvoyager> Heh. I know.
Mar 13 07:05:11 <muthu> building a native application for all devices, might be a little to much to undertake
Mar 13 07:06:01 <muthu> for iphone, for blackberry, for nokia, for windows mobile, for android
Mar 13 07:06:35 <jasta> the only company that has come close to that level of portability is Google at present.
Mar 13 07:06:41 <muthu> chaos: you had an interesting though about rewrites
Mar 13 07:06:46 <jasta> and they have done it painstakingly, i assure you.
Mar 13 07:07:18 <muthu> jasta: that's why people take the easy, yet crappy WAP route
Mar 13 07:07:35 <muthu> you can target ALL device, even though its ugly
Mar 13 07:07:38 <jasta> or none at all.  you must appreciate that doing nothing is an option.
Mar 13 07:07:49 <jasta> if your idea isn't practical in today's market, it should not be attempted.
Mar 13 07:08:13 <muthu> it is practical, the solution might not be nice
Mar 13 07:08:34 <muthu> imagine a media company, who want to provide service to mobile users
Mar 13 07:08:43 <jasta> well implementing a native app for most major platforms would not be practical.  a crappy wap application would be, i suppose.
Mar 13 07:08:46 <muthu> they don't want to choose, they want all
Mar 13 07:08:59 <jasta> muthu: Don't you understand the difference between wanting something and being able to have it?
Mar 13 07:09:25 <muthu> jasta: yes, i'm looking at my options
Mar 13 07:09:33 <jasta> What is desired is irrelevant to this argument.  We all understand what would be an ideal climate.  We all know that it doesn't exist.
Mar 13 07:09:57 <jasta> Be practical and tell this client of yours that their head is up their ass.
Mar 13 07:10:03 <muthu> lol
Mar 13 07:10:30 <muthu> if only i had a million in my bank backing me
Mar 13 07:12:18 <muthu> having a few different teams might also be not that bad
Mar 13 07:12:35 <muthu> a symbian team, a iphone team et al
Mar 13 07:12:53 <chaosvoyager> Keep an eye on OpenKODE. It's the Khronous open API stack: Open GL ES, OpenVG, OpenSL, etc. Incomplete reference libs are currently available for OSX and Windows, and nVidia supports it on their mobile devices.
Mar 13 07:13:17 <muthu> sure
Mar 13 07:14:35 <muthu> looks promising at first glance
Mar 13 07:15:00 <muthu> nice to see all platforms group together in openkode
Mar 13 07:18:28 <chaosvoyager> If they can get a consistent media stack on mobile devices, then a lot of my development problems go away. And it seems likely that nVidia will make sure OpenKODE runs under Windows Mobile. That just leaves the iPhone.
Mar 13 07:18:50 <chaosvoyager> But that has OpenGL ES anyway.
Mar 13 07:45:54 <chaosvoyager> romainguy: Oh hey, congrats on your coding bullseye :)
Mar 13 07:47:10 <chaosvoyager> I meant to say that much sooner, but got distracted :?
Mar 13 08:21:03 <sandesh> hey guys can anyone help me here????????????????????????????????
Mar 13 08:21:20 <sandesh> does android support WMS??
Mar 13 08:22:50 <sandesh> load WMS server in android
Mar 13 08:22:51 <sandesh> ?
Mar 13 08:25:17 <chaosvoyager> WMS?
Mar 13 08:28:20 <sandesh> WebMappingService
Mar 13 08:37:55 <chaosvoyager> sandesh: Hmm, very interesting, and sadly I have no idea. If I had to guess however, I'd say support will be part of the Android release. Currently there are quite a few missing, incomplete, or buggy features in Android.
Mar 13 08:38:35 <sandesh> ok
Mar 13 08:38:46 <chaosvoyager> sandesh: It's a good question to ask on the Android Developers group.
Mar 13 08:38:54 <sandesh> already asked
Mar 13 08:39:03 <sandesh> thanks for ur reply
Mar 13 08:39:25 <chaosvoyager> Heh, no response there, eh?
Mar 13 08:39:44 <sandesh> any other map other than google how to use functionality provided in android mapview
Mar 13 08:39:55 <sandesh> do u know this
Mar 13 08:40:03 <sandesh> is it possible
Mar 13 08:40:10 <sandesh> chaosvoyager
Mar 13 08:43:21 <chaosvoyager> I'm actually looking into this but don't know yet. I'd like to treat MapView as a general tiled image viewer, which would make it usable with any data that could be segmented into images. If I figure it out, you'll be the second to know.
Mar 13 08:45:20 <davidw> chaosvoyager, cool
Mar 13 08:52:54 <chaosvoyager> davidw: Heh, hopefully romainguy thinks so too, as I have this horrible feeling that this functionality will need to be exposed on their end. It's frustrating too because class based languages are supposed to facilitate this kind of architecting.
Mar 13 08:56:06 <sandesh> thanks chaosvoyager let me know on my gmail catchsandesh@gmail.com
Mar 13 08:56:36 <sandesh> thanks a lot for taking me into consideration thanks
Mar 13 08:58:00 <chaosvoyager> sandesh: You're welcome and I'll do what I can.
Mar 13 08:58:15 <sandesh> thanks
Mar 13 08:58:38 <chaosvoyager> And with that, the fact it's 5:00am here, and what looks like a bot is spamming our channel, it is time to call it a, er day. Night all.
Mar 13 14:43:44 <hans2k> hi, to play a sound file from the file system I need only to create a new media player, setSource("C:\\test.wav") an then mp.prepare(); mp.start() like google says....but I cant hear the sound?
Mar 13 14:52:18 <Aetmos> I haven't used MediaPlayer, but I would imagine it can't access your computer's c:\ drive
Mar 13 14:53:17 <Aetmos> And it would appear that it's supposed to be setDataSource, not setSource
Mar 13 14:58:56 <hans2k> ... I use setDataSource
Mar 13 15:00:52 <hans2k> I just used the 4 commands which I found on the google site to play audio...hm
Mar 13 15:01:10 <Aetmos> Still, I'm reasonably certain it's not able to access your C:\ drive like that
Mar 13 15:02:14 <hans2k> hm why not? ok I will try a file from the web, maybe this works...
Mar 13 15:02:51 <Aetmos> because it's an emulator, and it has its own file system.
Mar 13 15:03:02 <Aetmos> And it doesn't have a c:\ drive
Mar 13 15:03:59 <Aetmos> I would imagine you'd want to embed the .wav file as a resource in your project
Mar 13 15:12:35 <davidw> there are problems with that
Mar 13 15:23:14 <hans2k> i tried this also as raw resource, but then I need to MediaPlayer.create(context, R.raw.on) but I dont know what to use as context?  btw the sound from the internet isnt working, I guess network problem... because if I use the browser I get network error, unknown host...
Mar 13 15:23:51 <mike1o> any more sdk's coming out before the deadline?
Mar 13 15:24:07 <Aetmos> I just learned that one came out early march
Mar 13 15:24:13 <Aetmos> Downloading now
Mar 13 15:24:18 <Aetmos> m5-rc15 instead of m5-rc14
Mar 13 15:24:24 <mike1o> no way
Mar 13 15:24:25 <Aetmos> I hope it's a small change
Mar 13 15:24:48 <mike1o> I didn't notice at all
Mar 13 15:24:53 <Aetmos> yeah, me either
Mar 13 15:24:57 <Aetmos> there was a note posted on the blog
Mar 13 15:26:03 <mike1o> it came out on march 3rd?
Mar 13 15:26:09 <Aetmos> Yup
Mar 13 15:26:33 <darkbalder> hi everyone
Mar 13 15:26:37 <Aetmos> hi
Mar 13 15:26:41 <mike1o> was the eclipse plugin modified?
Mar 13 15:26:46 <mike1o> as well?
Mar 13 15:26:48 <Aetmos> the blog says no
Mar 13 15:27:10 <mike1o> thanks Aetmos
Mar 13 15:27:14 <Aetmos> np
Mar 13 15:27:24 <mike1o> I probably would have NEVER noticed that in a million years
Mar 13 15:29:31 <darkbalder> android is part of openmoko projects??
Mar 13 15:34:04 <acsia> the new SDK is just a bug fix regarding a security flaw
Mar 13 15:34:34 <Aetmos> Yeah, and a documentation update
Mar 13 15:34:42 <Aetmos> I'm still a bit afraid here that it will break my app
Mar 13 15:34:50 <Aetmos> =-O
Mar 13 15:34:57 <Aetmos> But I'll know in a minute
Mar 13 15:35:06 <acsia> :]
Mar 13 15:43:57 <Aetmos> This stupid Visual Studio 2005 updater has been running for well over an hour...I have no idea what the hell it's doing... >:o
Mar 13 15:45:19 <Aetmos> Not that that has anything to do with Android
Mar 13 15:45:28 <Aetmos> This is just the chat window I have open
Mar 13 15:46:09 <darkbalder> haha
Mar 13 15:47:43 <morrildl> Aetmos: as long as it's not the Eclipse update that's taking that long ;)
Mar 13 15:48:05 <Aetmos> Nope, I just finished the Eclipse update...although this VS2005 update is slowing my computer to a crawl
Mar 13 15:48:20 <Aetmos> Running my app now
Mar 13 15:52:56 <Aetmos> Yay! it runs ;-)
Mar 13 16:23:26 <acsia> is there any issue with   mCursor.deleteRow();?
Mar 13 16:23:57 <acsia> it does not seem to work
Mar 13 16:24:05 <acsia> following the notepad exemple
Mar 13 16:40:57 <jasta> morrildl: have you heard anything about the MediaPlayer?  is there any hope of having a bug fix release before the round 1 deadline?
Mar 13 16:42:17 <muthu> i'm having trouble playing a 10M mp4 video
Mar 13 16:42:28 <muthu> the smaller 3gp files were ok
Mar 13 17:00:28 <darkbalder> My university will do a Congress of Mobile technology, I'm looking for people to present android projects
Mar 13 17:01:02 <jasta> darkbalder: what is your university?
Mar 13 17:01:36 <darkbalder> Univesity o f Cuenca, in Ecuador
Mar 13 17:02:20 <darkbalder> it will be in April or May
Mar 13 17:03:32 <darkbalder> jasta, are you interested to participate?
Mar 13 17:03:36 <jasta> darkbalder: that doesn't seem like an especially attractive destination :)
Mar 13 17:03:41 <jasta> darkbalder: no, not at all.
Mar 13 17:03:52 <darkbalder> hahaha, why?
Mar 13 17:04:31 <darkbalder> in my country there is a campaign for use opensource project
Mar 13 17:05:09 <acsia> darkbalder, I am coming if your university pays the ticket
Mar 13 17:05:18 <jasta> lol
Mar 13 17:05:47 <acsia> :)
Mar 13 17:06:03 <darkbalder> yes, the tickets and other things about the travel we can pay
Mar 13 17:07:36 <acsia> then it is settle :)
Mar 13 17:09:10 <darkbalder> the point is expose full android framework
Mar 13 17:09:29 <jasta> darkbalder: that could be difficult, since Android is closed source.
Mar 13 17:09:46 <acsia> I heard they will completely open it
Mar 13 17:10:05 <jasta> Yes, they will, but how might you "expose full android framework" until then?
Mar 13 17:10:39 <acsia> reverse engineering?
Mar 13 17:10:54 <acsia> I kid
Mar 13 17:13:06 <darkbalder> well, andriod as a new framework for mobile tech
Mar 13 17:13:57 <jasta> ya'll haven't watched the 3 part overview on YouTube that google produced?
Mar 13 17:14:22 <davidw> darkbalder, you're paying people to go there?
Mar 13 17:15:22 <darkbalder> davidw, yes, We can coordinated with people interested
Mar 13 17:15:31 <davidw> wow, cool
Mar 13 17:15:44 <davidw> I'd go, but my wife is due in early May
Mar 13 17:16:24 * davidw thinks his idea of 'interesting destinations' is quite different from 'watch the waves' jasta
Mar 13 17:16:42 <davidw> ehhe, de gustibust non est disputandum... as they say
Mar 13 17:16:50 <davidw> gustibus
Mar 13 17:17:18 <darkbalder> the schedule is not defined yet
Mar 13 17:17:19 <jasta> davidw: I of course meant academically.  If you'e like to vacation in Ecuador on their time, sure.
Mar 13 17:17:31 <jasta> you'd*
Mar 13 17:17:48 <davidw> that's what being paid to go to conferences is all about:-)
Mar 13 17:17:53 <jasta> and dime*.  the d is impossible for me this morning apparently :)
Mar 13 17:18:06 <davidw> plus you get to meet a bunch of people from the place to show you around and hang out with
Mar 13 17:18:56 <darkbalder> interested please email me diego.ochoat@gmail.com
Mar 13 17:23:57 <darkbalder> acsia, davidw please email me if you are interested
Mar 13 17:24:50 <davidw> darkbalder, like I said - we have a baby in arrival in early May, so I can't.  Sounds like a lot of fun though!  It would be a *long* and expensive flight too
Mar 13 17:25:23 <darkbalder> haha, grettings!
Mar 13 17:26:00 <darkbalder> often the congress is in 3 days or 4
Mar 13 17:27:30 <acsia> will do
Mar 13 17:28:17 <darkbalder> thnx
Mar 13 17:28:25 <davidw> that's like a solid day of travel from here...wow... most flights are through the US....
Mar 13 17:28:44 <mike1o> miami
Mar 13 17:28:59 <darkbalder> davidw, where are you from?
Mar 13 17:29:33 <davidw> wow.... Cuenca isn't even near Quito, so that's another flight...
Mar 13 17:29:49 * davidw is sort of international... from the US, married to an Italian, live in Austria
Mar 13 17:30:02 <darkbalder> haha
Mar 13 17:30:15 <darkbalder> Quito - Cuenca, 30 min
Mar 13 17:30:57 <dims> davidw: congrats!
Mar 13 17:31:46 <davidw> thanks:-)
Mar 13 17:33:33 <darkbalder> OH, there is posibility for video conference
Mar 13 17:34:31 <muthu> when's the congress, darkbalder?
Mar 13 17:35:28 <darkbalder> schedule is still not defined, but the idea is do in April or May
Mar 13 17:35:30 <davidw> well in that case I'll write:-)
Mar 13 17:36:01 <davidw> the address is ochoa*t*@gmail.com ? or without the t?
Mar 13 17:36:01 <muthu> ok.. who are you looking from android?
Mar 13 17:36:43 <darkbalder> diego.ochoat@gmail.com
Mar 13 17:37:38 <muthu> if you wait until may, you can invite the challenge winners
Mar 13 17:39:33 <darkbalder> muthu, explain android as a mobile tech
Mar 13 17:39:53 <darkbalder> muthu, what is challenge winners?
Mar 13 17:40:29 <muthu> apr 14, there's an android challenge
Mar 13 17:40:36 <muthu> 50 winners will be selected
Mar 13 17:40:40 <muthu> by google
Mar 13 17:41:48 <davidw> kind of depends what he's looking for I guess
Mar 13 17:41:55 <davidw> and what audience he's got
Mar 13 17:43:12 <darkbalder> this info , I can send you the next week please
Mar 13 17:44:51 <muthu> darkbalder: what are you in the university?
Mar 13 17:45:54 <muthu> or rather who are you? sorry.
Mar 13 17:46:24 <darkbalder> student, doing my tesis, 	Informatics Engineering
Mar 13 17:46:45 <muthu> ok
Mar 13 17:47:46 <darkbalder> people who will come to congress are engineers: electronic, informatics
Mar 13 17:48:20 <muthu> great
Mar 13 17:50:14 <muthu> here's a gem from the docs:
Mar 13 17:50:26 <muthu>     MediaPlayer mp = new MediaPlayer();     mp.setDataSource(PATH_TO_FILE);     mp.prepare();     mp.start();
Mar 13 17:50:40 <muthu> Note: It is possible that mp could be   null, so good code should null check after the new.
Mar 13 17:50:44 <muthu> what??
Mar 13 17:51:17 <raidfive> if(mp == null) doSomethingElse()
Mar 13 17:51:38 <muthu> why would mp be null?
Mar 13 17:51:53 <raidfive> who knows :)
Mar 13 17:51:56 <raidfive> ask google
Mar 13 17:52:01 <muthu> ha ha
Mar 13 17:52:03 <romainguy> muthu: a RuntimeException thrown by the constructor?
Mar 13 17:52:14 <davidw> muthu, they mention to check for null in the docs, IIRC
Mar 13 17:52:28 <raidfive> you should always check for null anyways :)
Mar 13 17:52:30 <muthu> yeah.. but its weird
Mar 13 17:52:49 <raidfive> prevent those nasty NPEs :)
Mar 13 17:53:14 <acsia> maybe the file can not be opened
Mar 13 17:53:41 <muthu> raidfive: if we are going to check for NPE after every new.. then i guess
Mar 13 17:53:57 <muthu> acsia: its not about the file
Mar 13 17:54:24 <muthu> you need to check right after the 'new'
Mar 13 17:55:50 <muthu> romainguy: is this normal?
Mar 13 17:56:23 <muthu> davidw: what do you think?
Mar 13 17:57:05 <davidw> http://code.google.com/android/toolbox/apis/media.html
Mar 13 17:57:15 <davidw> Note: It is possible that mp could be null, so good code should null check after the new. Also IllegalArgumentException and IOException either need to be caught or passed on when using setDataSource(), since the file you are referencing may not exist.
Mar 13 17:57:50 <raidfive> sounds like typical java programming to me :)
Mar 13 18:14:18 <Aetmos> Am I doing something wrong, or does Geocoder.getFromLocation() always throw an IOException nomatter what I do?
Mar 13 18:15:02 <Aetmos> Seems straightforward enough...
Mar 13 18:15:03 <Aetmos> Geocoder myGeocoder = new Geocoder(Locale.getDefault());
Mar 13 18:15:03 <Aetmos> 		Address[] addresses = myGeocoder.getFromLocation(lat,lng);
Mar 13 19:12:32 <chaosvoyager> What does it mean when an activity 'leaked'?
Mar 13 19:13:18 <Aetmos> diaper was too full
Mar 13 19:13:33 <acsia> it is when the phone drips lithium
Mar 13 19:14:00 <chaosvoyager> both metaphors are too close for comfort -_-
Mar 13 19:14:39 <chaosvoyager> (* goes and changes Firefox's diaper *)
Mar 13 19:14:48 <Aetmos> lol
Mar 13 19:15:00 <Aetmos> Indeed, Firefox needs a big diaper
Mar 13 19:15:30 <Kraln> I dropped firefox in a portajohn and got opera
Mar 13 19:15:48 <chaosvoyager> Now from what I gather, an Activity can leak some sort of resources if it's not properly unbound...
Mar 13 19:15:56 <Aetmos> I have opera, but I'm not quite happy with it
Mar 13 19:16:38 <chaosvoyager> kraln: I'm all about WebKit, though n9ot necessarily the browsers made with it.
Mar 13 19:16:39 <Aetmos> So I keep using FF3, and hoping each new RC will fix the memory leaks
Mar 13 19:17:03 <Kraln> chaosvoyager: safari is prett hawt
Mar 13 19:17:17 <Aetmos> I guess I could use that. I do have it installed
Mar 13 19:17:31 <Kraln> Aetmos: with firefox, it's not so much leaks as it is fragmentation
Mar 13 19:18:05 <chaosvoyager> I have Firefox because they promised better SVG support, and because I've had to use the DOM inspector more than once to hack through a page's markup just so I could read it.
Mar 13 19:18:07 <Aetmos> FF3b3 had some sort of CPU bug as well
Mar 13 19:18:21 <Aetmos> If you left it open for a few days it would peak your CPU
Mar 13 19:18:27 <Aetmos> I haven't had that problem with FF3b4 yet
Mar 13 19:19:18 <acsia> which platform?
Mar 13 19:19:35 <Aetmos> Windows
Mar 13 19:19:39 <Aetmos> XP
Mar 13 19:19:44 <chaosvoyager> they're upto 4?
Mar 13 19:19:48 <Aetmos> yes
Mar 13 19:19:49 <chaosvoyager> huh.
Mar 13 19:19:58 <Aetmos> came out yesterday or the day before
Mar 13 19:19:59 <Aetmos> I forget
Mar 13 19:20:44 <chaosvoyager> I moved back to b2. b3 was not able to see or save to the Unified Bookmarks folder for some reason.
Mar 13 19:20:52 <Kraln> chaosvoyager: safari has the same tools, and better svg support
Mar 13 19:24:22 <chaosvoyager> Kraln: I know about the SVG, but didn't know about the DOM editor. Does 8it allow live editing of webpages viewed? Sadly though I can't get past the font rendering.
Mar 13 19:24:40 <Kraln> live editing? haven't tried it
Mar 13 19:25:35 <Kraln> no live editing, but it's gorgeous, let me take a screenshot
Mar 13 19:26:54 <chaosvoyager> For example, say I'm viewing this webpage, and they decide to put code in this tiny, tiny DIV. Snip, snip, snip, now it's presented on a full page.
Mar 13 19:27:13 <Kraln> http://i31.tinypic.com/zwcpht.png
Mar 13 19:27:40 <chaosvoyager> Kralin: There was no need, I agree about the looks :) but thanks.
Mar 13 19:28:05 <Kraln> if you enable the debug menu, there's a 'snippet editor'
Mar 13 19:28:08 <chaosvoyager> Tell you a secret though, I actually prefer browsing the web on an iPhone.
Mar 13 19:28:18 <chaosvoyager> Now if only it had cut and paste.
Mar 13 19:28:22 <Kraln> the iphone has a huge DPS
Mar 13 19:29:12 <Kraln> what's worng with the text rendering, anyway?
Mar 13 19:30:15 <chaosvoyager> That's partly it, but more importantly I think is that the designers understood how most people browse the internet and appropriately anticipated those actions.
Mar 13 19:30:55 <Kraln> also, you paid $500+ for a phone, amirite? =p
Mar 13 19:31:10 <chaosvoyager> Not yet :)
Mar 13 19:32:25 <chaosvoyager> Nearly sold though. Needs GPS still.
Mar 13 19:32:42 <Kraln> needs gps, 3g data, etc
Mar 13 19:34:10 <chaosvoyager> As to the fonts, the anti-aliasing used on OS X makes small fonts blurry. It's like using an LCD on a VGA connection.
Mar 13 19:34:30 <Kraln> OSX doesn't anti-alias fonts smaller than 9px.
Mar 13 19:34:49 <Kraln> in fact, it doesn't anti-alias any fonts. it uses subpixel rendering and kerning.
Mar 13 19:34:56 <romainguy> Kraln: only by default
Mar 13 19:35:06 <romainguy> (for the 9px limit)
Mar 13 19:35:19 <jasta> Kraln: subpixel rendering is considered a type of antialiasing.
Mar 13 19:35:34 <Kraln> if you turn it on for smaller fonts you deserve whatever you get
Mar 13 19:35:36 <Kraln> http://i25.tinypic.com/11alnjq.png <- here's a good picture
Mar 13 19:36:12 <romainguy> Mac OS X's antialiasing is tuned so there's as little difference as possible with printed text
Mar 13 19:36:32 <jasta> Doesn
Mar 13 19:36:38 <jasta> Doesn't OS X just use freetype?
Mar 13 19:37:00 <romainguy> I'd be surprised if it did
Mar 13 19:37:03 <romainguy> I should ask digit
Mar 13 19:37:10 <Kraln> apple owns several patents on text rendering, unfortunately
Mar 13 19:37:12 <chaosvoyager> Right, I consider subpixel rendering one possible step in the process of anti-aliasing, which is the objective.
Mar 13 19:37:32 <chaosvoyager> romainguy: Heh, ironic considering SJ statement that people don't read anymore :P
Mar 13 19:37:41 <romainguy> :)
Mar 13 19:38:18 <Kraln> anyway, in that screenshot I posted, you can see various bits of text with varying amounts of AA applied
Mar 13 19:39:18 <chaosvoyager> patents... (* everything turns red and the siren from Kill Bill starts playing *)
Mar 13 19:40:05 <jasta> freetype has a way to avoid the applicable patents, actually.
Mar 13 19:40:35 <romainguy> jasta: yes, it disables features :)
Mar 13 19:41:12 <Kraln> apple owns a good bit of patents on the ttf format and kerning and hinting
Mar 13 19:41:32 <jasta> romainguy: As I undrestand it, freetype has a byte code interpretor which uses the font hints for anti-aliasing and subpixel rendering that does not violate the applicable patents.
Mar 13 19:41:57 <romainguy> jasta: I remember digit telling me that there's a patent on this
Mar 13 19:42:02 <romainguy> and that it's disabled by default
Mar 13 19:42:09 <romainguy> but you can recompile freetype to enable it
Mar 13 19:42:13 <jasta> yes, there is.  and that is why freetype has a patent-free bytecode interpretor they wrote
Mar 13 19:42:17 <jasta> to replace the non-free one.
Mar 13 19:42:26 <jasta> hang on, let me pull up the source
Mar 13 19:42:30 <romainguy> I'll ask David
Mar 13 19:43:10 * davidw doesn't know:-)
Mar 13 19:44:10 <Kraln> it has it's own autohinter that ignores the bytecode
Mar 13 19:44:16 <Kraln> or you can turn it on and violate the patent =)
Mar 13 19:44:16 <jasta> romainguy: I'm referring to TT_CONFIG_OPTION_UNPATENTED_HINTING
Mar 13 19:44:27 <chaosvoyager> hee..hee.. United States Patent Application #20040230959, filed on May 14, 2003....
Mar 13 19:44:28 <jasta> Kraln: yes, i believe you are right.
Mar 13 19:44:29 <Kraln> jasta: http://www.freetype.org/patents.html
Mar 13 19:44:34 <romainguy> I thought that this was doing what Kraln said, that it just uses autohinting
Mar 13 19:44:41 <chaosvoyager> ... the IS NOT operator.
Mar 13 19:44:50 <jasta> looks like, very strangely, Debian enables the patent-encumbered bytecode interpretor.
Mar 13 19:45:05 <jasta> i wonder how that works
Mar 13 19:46:15 <Kraln> many linux distros do
Mar 13 19:46:22 <Kraln> they don't expect to get sued by apple
Mar 13 19:46:57 <chaosvoyager> Technically, sourcecode itself CANNOT violate a patent. It's only when it is run, and then it is the user that is responsible for possible patent violation.
Mar 13 19:47:04 <jasta> that's very interesting, i had assumed that Debian would not permit this in their main distribution.  non-free, perhaps.
Mar 13 19:47:36 <jasta> chaosvoyager: right, which is why debian has a non-free channel.
Mar 13 19:47:39 <davidw> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=debian-legal+freetype+patent&btnG=Google+Search
Mar 13 19:47:41 <jasta> but freetype, AFAICT, is not in it.
Mar 13 19:48:10 <davidw> however, since
Mar 13 19:48:10 <davidw> Apple Computer is not actively enforcing its patent, we are not going to
Mar 13 19:48:10 <davidw> force the issue. The debian-legal stance on patents is to ignore those
Mar 13 19:48:10 <davidw> that are not being actively enforced
Mar 13 19:48:28 <davidw> of course most of the guys on debian-legal are just talking out their asses, but that's a different matter
Mar 13 19:48:36 <jasta> ahh yes, i see.  debian's stance is to ignore patents that are not enforced :)
Mar 13 19:48:50 <chaosvoyager> Good policy actually.
Mar 13 19:48:54 <jasta> that is very interesting to me.  Debian usually isn't very practical :)
Mar 13 19:49:18 <chaosvoyager> Perhaps their association with Ubuntu has changed them.
Mar 13 19:49:24 <jasta> now, the question arises, did Microsoft license this for ClearType?
Mar 13 19:51:06 <chaosvoyager> Didn't they have a patent sharing agreement with Apple for some time?
Mar 13 19:51:19 <jasta> i don't know?
Mar 13 19:51:41 <jasta> i am sort of pleased to learn that Debian has simply ignored this patent because it is stupid :)
Mar 13 19:51:57 <jasta> even if their official reasoning is that it is not enforced :)
Mar 13 19:52:00 <davidw> hehe..some squawky individual asking for a -legal mailing list to get the license discussions off of the devel list: http://marc.info/?l=debian-devel&m=91207652128913&w=2 :-)
Mar 13 19:53:29 <chaosvoyager> *sigh*
Mar 13 19:55:35 <chaosvoyager> davidw: Oh, did you ever find out what exactly was meant by a leaky ServiceConnection?
Mar 13 19:55:52 <davidw> chaosvoyager, well, a few people answerd on the list
Mar 13 19:56:10 <chaosvoyager> Yes, two, but I still don't know what it is.
Mar 13 19:56:45 <davidw> well apparently if it's not unbound... it leaks:-)
Mar 13 19:58:32 <chaosvoyager> But what precisely does it leak? Is it memory, is it threads in a pool (leaky pool makes sense)? And who's responsible for cleaning up when things go horribly wrong? These things know I must.
Mar 13 19:59:24 <chaosvoyager> In short, who gets wet when there's a leak?
Mar 13 20:03:20 <davidw> chaosvoyager, ask on the list then:-)
Mar 13 20:03:32 <davidw> maybe they'll take pity and explain things
Mar 13 20:08:29 <davidw> I wish there were a way to just look up resources by their name within the .apk
Mar 13 20:12:17 <Aetmos> there is
Mar 13 20:12:51 <davidw> well, and have it actually be a resource
Mar 13 21:11:04 <davidw> hrm hrm hrm hrm
Mar 13 21:17:45 <jasta> indeed
Mar 13 21:17:58 <jasta> i am ditching work tomorrow to go snowboarding ;)
Mar 13 21:18:21 <chaosvoyager> Rock!
Mar 13 21:18:50 <chaosvoyager> After all, with global warming, you may have fewer chances to do so in the future.
Mar 13 21:19:16 <davidw> unless you live in one of those places that's getting extraordinary amounts of snow and blaming *that* on global warming
Mar 13 21:19:46 <chaosvoyager> Well, for a while weird things like that happen :P
Mar 13 21:22:04 <jasta> we nearly broke records for snowfall in Western WA this year.
Mar 13 21:22:11 <jasta> and we've had a great past 4 years.
Mar 13 21:22:28 <chaosvoyager> So THAT'S where all the snow is going -_-
Mar 13 21:22:47 <jasta> our record was in 1996, there was so much snow at Mt. Baker that they had to open late one day to dig the chairlifts out.
Mar 13 21:22:58 <Bonkers> wow, that's awesome
Mar 13 21:22:58 <davidw> *wow*
Mar 13 21:22:59 <jasta> it was like riding the rope tow sitting on the chair lift.
Mar 13 21:23:19 <davidw> I hate those f(&(&(*& rope tow things
Mar 13 21:23:33 <davidw> my wife got a good laugh at my expense.... she was trying to teach me to ski
Mar 13 21:23:35 <Bonkers> don't they only exist on the tiny hills?
Mar 13 21:23:52 <davidw> and I fell over on the rope tow... but I didn't let go... I paid my money, dammit, and I wanted to go up the hill
Mar 13 21:24:58 <Bonkers> now that's using your head
Mar 13 21:28:12 <dcordes> can somebody tell me when there will be SD driver in msm linux?
Mar 13 21:33:10 <jasta> Bonkers: yes, they're only on the learner hills.
Mar 13 21:33:18 <jasta> And they're literally hills, like 50 feet at best usually :)
Mar 13 21:33:40 <dcordes> swetland, ping
Mar 13 21:34:24 <davidw> this one was a bit bigger than that... it was sort of a half rate ski area... but it certainly wasn't a big mountain either
Mar 13 21:34:31 <jasta> davidw: This year, we had a 6 day streak of over a foot per day of new snow at one of our popular mountains.
Mar 13 21:34:57 <jasta> They had to close down for 3 days because they had several avalanches cover the pass roadway, the largest of which created a wall in the street over 30 feet high
Mar 13 21:35:07 <jasta> so global warming?  i don't know. ;)
Mar 13 21:37:22 <chaosvoyager> Dude, I'm trying to give you reasonable justification for ditching work :)
Mar 13 21:40:46 <jasta> i don't need one, manager already approved :)
Mar 13 21:40:54 <jasta> and i'm going to Tahoe for 4 days at the end of Mar
Mar 13 21:40:56 <jasta> and that's already approved :)
Mar 13 21:41:33 <jasta> My buddy worked out a deal with his boss to ditch work on as little as 2 hours notice to go boarding, so long as there are no meetings or anything.
Mar 13 21:41:34 <chaosvoyager> Damn you.
Mar 13 21:47:04 * proq wonders how wireless support for android + zaurus is coming along
Mar 13 21:47:42 <proq> is there a way to get a terminal on android yet?
Mar 13 21:48:38 <chaosvoyager> No idea.
Mar 13 21:49:34 <chaosvoyager> (* another idea sparks and sets his head on fire *)
Mar 13 21:49:45 <chaosvoyager> ow.
Mar 13 21:51:27 <davidw> proq, in what way?
Mar 13 21:52:06 <proq> davidw: huh?
Mar 13 21:52:14 <davidw> what do you want to do?
Mar 13 21:52:29 <proq> I have trouble using computers anymore unless I have a CLI
Mar 13 21:52:56 <davidw> well... you could put something together with Hecl
Mar 13 21:53:03 <davidw> that lets you access whatever android can do
Mar 13 21:53:07 <davidw> more or less
Mar 13 22:19:19 <jasta> proq: adb shell
Mar 13 22:19:27 <jasta> but thats just for development
Mar 13 22:19:34 <jasta> you certainly wouldn't want to use such a thing with a real phone.
Mar 13 22:21:57 * dcordes wonders what a _real_ phone is
Mar 13 22:23:20 <proq> oh, cool
Mar 13 22:24:00 <proq> jasta: my zaurus doesn't even have X running on it, not enough room for both X and emacs 22 :)
Mar 13 22:27:27 <donomo> your choices were a windowing environement, or an operating system :)
Mar 13 22:27:36 <jasta> dcordes: in this case, a device which is commonly used to make and receive wireless telephone calls, instead of a computer running an emulator which is not capable of making such calls.
Mar 13 22:29:02 <proq> heh. wait until skype can run on it  :)
Mar 13 22:30:57 <jasta> i could be more specific if you want me to, but i suspect that you knew what i meant by "real phone".
Mar 13 22:32:23 <dcordes> jasta, ok and I suspect you to know what I try to imply by the question
Mar 13 22:35:11 <jasta> No, I don't.  On a small form factor wireless handset, it would not be convenient to use a terminal.
Mar 13 22:35:19 <jasta> What did you mean to the contrary?
Mar 13 22:37:15 <davidw> ooooh... hrm.... light goes on....
Mar 13 22:37:54 <dcordes> that I want to at least have the opportunity to use my device to the fullest possible extent
Mar 13 22:43:34 <jasta> dcordes: A shell on Android would very certainly not do that.
Mar 13 22:43:38 <proq> jasta: erm.  I certainly *do* want to use a terminal on my small devices, and already do for that matter
Mar 13 22:44:00 <proq> as I mentioned a few minutes ago
Mar 13 22:44:03 <dcordes> proq, ack
Mar 13 22:44:07 <jasta> proq: Then prepare for Android to disappoint you.
Mar 13 22:44:20 * dcordes is also zaurus user and knows the big pros of CLI on small devices.
Mar 13 22:44:32 <jasta> The shell is likely to be extremely limited, and it is unlikely that any major distribution effort will come under way to improve it.
Mar 13 22:45:01 <proq> jasta: if it has ssh, the only limitations will be resolution and small keyboard size
Mar 13 22:45:19 * proq notes palm phones running ssh is pretty popular
Mar 13 22:45:31 <dcordes> it's feeling odd to discuss the point of CLI usage in a linux channel to me
Mar 13 22:46:23 <proq> indeed
Mar 13 22:46:43 <dcordes> jasta, are you involved in msm kernel development?
Mar 13 22:47:17 <jasta> does this seem like a linux channel to you?
Mar 13 22:48:03 <proq> android is a linux distro
Mar 13 22:48:16 <jasta> Is it?
Mar 13 22:49:05 <jasta> ...are you aure? :)
Mar 13 22:49:06 <jasta> sure*
Mar 13 22:49:28 <proq> yes, and it will remain so until it stops using the linux kernel
Mar 13 22:50:27 <jasta> What makes you so confident that it is appropriate to define Android so narrowly?
Mar 13 22:51:09 <dcordes> haha what?
Mar 13 22:51:20 <jasta> Allow me to assist you.
Mar 13 22:51:23 <proq> "linux distro" is very broad actually
Mar 13 22:51:25 <dcordes> pleease
Mar 13 22:52:02 <proq> would you prefer embedded linux distro?
Mar 13 22:52:14 <jasta> Android is a software stack, including not an insignificant volume of specialized software contributing toward an application framework and runtime environment.
Mar 13 22:53:06 <dcordes> ==android is linux with an own/new backend?
Mar 13 22:53:11 <jasta> To define it narrowly as a Linux distro would be a much less fitting description.  For example, I could define it as a Dalvik runtime environment.  But it is not simply that.
Mar 13 22:53:23 <jasta> dcordes: Is?  It *is* that?
Mar 13 22:54:18 <dcordes> come on. you have the dalvik vms on top of the linux kernel
Mar 13 22:54:38 <dcordes> I don't get what sort of black magic you are talking about
Mar 13 22:55:00 <jasta> There is no "magic" here.  I am talking about an application framework, which you are ignoring.
Mar 13 22:55:08 <jasta> I don't know why, but you are.
Mar 13 22:55:09 <dcordes> what's so specialized instead of the userland?
Mar 13 22:55:48 <jasta> dcordes: What's so significant about the kernel that is used?  Is the most significant, defining piece of Android the Linux kernel?
Mar 13 22:55:53 <jasta> Is that what makes it unique and interesting?
Mar 13 22:56:29 <jasta> Is that it distributes the Linux kernel and some software built against Linux what defines it best?  Does that help you understand how it differs from, say, OpenWRT?
Mar 13 22:56:31 <dcordes> to get back to the gist: we were talking about the requirement of a shell in android
Mar 13 22:58:01 <davidw> so anyway
Mar 13 22:58:16 <davidw> dcordes, I don't think there's a shell widget right now
Mar 13 22:58:19 <jasta> dcordes: Yes, and you won't find a robust one with Android, since the software stack doesn't include it.
Mar 13 22:58:20 <davidw> maybe you can write one:-)
Mar 13 22:58:36 <davidw> I think it ought to be possible
Mar 13 22:58:43 <jasta> The software stack includes a shell, but very limited command-line utility.  There is no reason to suspect it will ever include those tools.
Mar 13 22:58:53 <dcordes> I can't and I don't have the interest in making one
Mar 13 22:59:03 <davidw> I mean, people have made ssh clients for java me....
Mar 13 22:59:42 <jasta> davidw: Writing a shell would be harmful to your health :)
Mar 13 22:59:58 <chaosvoyager> 0_o
Mar 13 23:00:02 <jasta> Besides, you're talking about a terminal, not a shell.
Mar 13 23:00:04 <davidw> I wouldn't mind have something a littel bit nicer for interactive hecl usage
Mar 13 23:00:17 <davidw> well, for ssh he wants a terminal, sure
Mar 13 23:00:24 <proq> I wouldn't bother reinventing the wheel. rather, just port one
Mar 13 23:00:28 <davidw> he can use Hecl as a shell:-)
Mar 13 23:01:09 <proq> I will probably end up just tweaking some makefiles
Mar 13 23:01:50 <chaosvoyager> proq: Do you want CLI access because it allows typed commands, or because it provides access to Linux utils?
Mar 13 23:01:50 <jasta> proq: My greatest complaint with the way you are approaching this topic is that you believe Android will or does contain a significant set of command line tools.  It does not, and likely will not.  It is unlikely to ever, since most of Android's application framework is at a layer that would not be easily compatible with command-line interaction.
Mar 13 23:02:00 <jasta> proq: Which is why your assertions that it is simply a distro are so flawed.
Mar 13 23:02:30 <dcordes> jasonchen, huh? who set there will be a set of command line tools in android. maybe he just want to be able to get under the hood
Mar 13 23:02:33 <jasta> Android's application framework is its significant piece, and that piece is very custom, and mostly written in Java.  The construction of command-line utilities to interact with it would be a very significant endeavour.
Mar 13 23:02:38 <dcordes> even if there is nothing in it haha
Mar 13 23:02:54 <jasta> dcordes: Why would you want to do that?
Mar 13 23:03:21 <dcordes> hey people aren't we talking about the world's first entirely free and open mobile phone platform??
Mar 13 23:03:27 <jasta> proq suggested that he wanted to access the full "power" of his device, and that a command line would do that.  I am telling you that with Android, it would not.
Mar 13 23:03:45 <jasta> dcordes: No, because there have already been quite a few entirely free and open mobile phone platforms.
Mar 13 23:03:53 <jasta> We are talking about Android, one of them, and far from the first.
Mar 13 23:04:16 <dcordes> jasta, how's that? what if I want to attach additional hardware to my usb host and need to install and load an additional module?
Mar 13 23:04:24 <dcordes> how do I want to do this w/o a terminal?
Mar 13 23:04:34 <jasta> dcordes: Well, you'd be SOL because Android's kernel is not modular.
Mar 13 23:04:44 <dcordes> jasta, I don't care.
Mar 13 23:04:53 <jasta> How would a terminal help you then?
Mar 13 23:04:57 <dcordes> I will configure it modular
Mar 13 23:05:01 <chaosvoyager> dcordes: hikerproject.org might be closer to what you're looking for.
Mar 13 23:05:06 <jasta> A terminal is not going to install a kernel for you.
Mar 13 23:05:43 <proq> jasta: sorry, but the ignorance here is deafening, and I have better things to do than explain linux history.
Mar 13 23:05:46 * proq vanishes
Mar 13 23:06:05 <dcordes> given that android is the world's first free and open phone platform and rooted on free and open source software, my humble self will configure compile and install the kernel that it runs on!°
Mar 13 23:06:06 <jasta> dcordes: Regardless, you're setting yourself up for a great deal of disappointment.  It is still unclear if Android will even be all that hackable.  The phone manufacturers have every ability to very thoroughly lock it down.
Mar 13 23:07:07 <jasta> The manufacturer could make it impossibly difficult for you to manipulate the system in any way not supported by the Android framework, and I think there's a good chance that they will.  As they have always done.
Mar 13 23:07:23 <jasta> And please quit referring to it as the first.  That is simply not true.
Mar 13 23:07:46 <dcordes> jasta, isn't it all about the software, not about the machines?
Mar 13 23:08:13 <jasta> what, specifically, is all about the software?
Mar 13 23:08:14 <dcordes> I remember your boss saying exactly this in the videos that appeared among with the android website
Mar 13 23:08:20 <dcordes> jasta, android.
Mar 13 23:08:26 <dcordes> it's not about the gphone
Mar 13 23:08:32 <dcordes> there will be no gphone
Mar 13 23:08:34 <jasta> Android is a software stack, so yes.
Mar 13 23:08:37 <dcordes> all lies?
Mar 13 23:08:47 <jasta> dcordes: You do realize that someone will of course need to make a phone, right?
Mar 13 23:08:56 <dcordes> ah ok so why are you talking about some manufacturers preventing me from compilling my own kernel?
Mar 13 23:09:02 <jasta> HTC, for example, will make a phone, put Android on it, and they may just as well lock it all down so that you could not install your own kernel, access a shell, etc.
Mar 13 23:09:05 <jasta> Nothing stops them.
Mar 13 23:09:14 <dcordes> jasta, I'm pretty aware.
Mar 13 23:09:32 <jasta> They can make it impossibly difficult for you to do anything.  And they might, even.
Mar 13 23:09:40 <chaosvoyager> dcordes: and the OpenMoko project might also be a closer fit to your interests.
Mar 13 23:09:50 <jasta> I think what you should be most excited about is what Android is doing to *linux*, not for itself or for the mobile industry.
Mar 13 23:10:17 <chaosvoyager> bastards sold out becore I could get one too ;_;
Mar 13 23:10:18 <jasta> Android is promoting a clear focus on stable, robust drivers for Linux for mobile technology.  That will ultimately yield more hackable devices than Android itself.
Mar 13 23:11:00 <dcordes> jasta, excitement?
Mar 13 23:11:05 <dcordes> what excitement?
Mar 13 23:11:07 <davidw> I saw an openmoko phone at the android meeting in Munich
Mar 13 23:11:11 <davidw> took forever to boot
Mar 13 23:11:14 <davidw> it was neat though
Mar 13 23:11:18 <benley> I played with an openmoko phone last week
Mar 13 23:11:19 <benley> it was pretty
Mar 13 23:11:22 <benley> but the UI was _ass_
Mar 13 23:11:28 <davidw> heeh
Mar 13 23:11:42 <jasta> dcordes: You seemed to be excited by Android.  My apologies.
Mar 13 23:12:15 * davidw thinks Android is something to be excited about.... you get a ton of software for free under a super liberal license
Mar 13 23:12:18 <chaosvoyager> If the whole point of Android is to get vendors to provide open drivers, then I will consider it a win regardless of whatever else happens.
Mar 13 23:12:28 <davidw> of course, it may amount to nothing, but it seems like a good thing to me
Mar 13 23:12:35 <jasta> benley: Google did a very smart thing forming the OHA.  That was smart :)
Mar 13 23:12:45 <dcordes> jasta, I am not excited about android, rather about you as a person not understanding the terms free and open in free and open source software.
Mar 13 23:12:46 <jasta> err remove that second sentence :)
Mar 13 23:12:47 <davidw> and Google has a lot more money and clout than openmoko
Mar 13 23:13:08 <jasta> dcordes: You must be right.  What do I know about free and open source software?
Mar 13 23:13:13 <davidw> dcordes, what's he not getting?
Mar 13 23:14:04 <dcordes> jasta, he is explaining how nice and beautiful htc is going to disable access to essential functionallities
Mar 13 23:14:18 <davidw> dcordes, well, they might
Mar 13 23:14:23 <romainguy> dcordes: What essential functionalities?
Mar 13 23:14:26 <jasta> davidw: Yeah, but Google's prestige was just a tool to form and sustain the OHA.
Mar 13 23:14:38 <jasonchen> so, how about that local sports team?
Mar 13 23:14:45 <davidw> it's open source, so the handset people or operators might hack it so that it's crippled
Mar 13 23:14:53 <dcordes> I cinsearly doubt how jasta is going to prevent me from running my own kernel on a machine that is based on linux w/o violating GPL
Mar 13 23:15:13 <jasta> Do you doubt how HTC, Samsung, Motorola, and LG might?
Mar 13 23:15:19 <dcordes> romainguy, in the given example, running a custom kernel.
Mar 13 23:15:21 <davidw> jasonchen, mmmm this is usually better: "do you guys think emacs or vim is better for _______ ?"
Mar 13 23:15:27 <jasta> Or Sprint, T-Mobile, Vodaphone?
Mar 13 23:15:29 <dcordes> jasta, yes.
Mar 13 23:15:30 <dcordes> yes
Mar 13 23:15:38 <romainguy> dcordes: I don't see how it is essential on a phone
Mar 13 23:15:47 <jasta> dcordes: You don't see how a hardware manufacturer could make it very hard for you to upload your own kernel?  How do you not see that?
Mar 13 23:15:57 <davidw> dcordes, TIvo
Mar 13 23:15:58 <jasonchen> davidw: that's always a good one. :-)
Mar 13 23:16:22 <davidw> jasonchen, the theory being sort of like using dynamite to extinguish oil well fires...
Mar 13 23:16:25 <dcordes> romainguy,  on the world's first free and open software platform for mobile phone devices based on a gpl kernel I think it is essential to do so
Mar 13 23:16:36 <sayao> is there a list of submitted android apps, so i don't code a duplicate one?
Mar 13 23:16:59 <proq> jasta: you should read about how hackers got linux running on xbox and xbox360
Mar 13 23:17:02 <chaosvoyager> A rebel alliance... androids... phones named after letters... This is all starting to sound very familiar...
Mar 13 23:17:08 <jasta> sayao: Not really, but the community is certainly very lively.  Would be easy to kind of explore around or ask questions to find out.
Mar 13 23:17:41 <jasta> proq: I know how, in fact I have Linux running on an XBox in my house.
Mar 13 23:18:13 <sayao> jasta, if i code a msn client, could it be legally used (since it's a microsoft trademark)?
Mar 13 23:19:12 <jasta> sayao: That depends on how you have discovered the protocol, and on your and your user's country of residence :)
Mar 13 23:19:28 <davidw> sayao, maybe a multi-protocol chat thing? you could write an  whatever protocol over gtalk thing and then distribute messages/connections on a server
Mar 13 23:19:52 <jasta> sayao: In general, yes, you could do that legally.
Mar 13 23:19:57 <sayao> i know the msn protocol by reverse engineering it :)
Mar 13 23:20:12 <sayao> mostly using wireshark hehe
Mar 13 23:20:18 <jasta> well then check your country's legal code :)
Mar 13 23:20:26 <chaosvoyager> sayao: Um, Miranda is an open source IM client that supports MSN, as well as, er, almost everything else.
Mar 13 23:20:44 <jasta> In the US, reverse engineering is still generally upheld as legal, so long as you did it with wire sniffing.
Mar 13 23:20:52 <dcordes> jasta, may I ask what's your function in android?
Mar 13 23:20:54 <proq> sayao: you don't need to use the MSN trademark to use the msn chat protocol
Mar 13 23:21:22 <jasta> dcordes: I don't know if it's appropriate for me to define myself.  Perhaps someone else could do it.
Mar 13 23:21:43 <dcordes> jasta, you are an extremely philosophical person
Mar 13 23:21:47 <chaosvoyager> Well, I don't know about jasta, but my finction in Android is the ass. Most... important... part.
Mar 13 23:21:51 <dcordes> big in your words
Mar 13 23:22:40 <chaosvoyager> Come to think of it, I'm shiny and metal too...
Mar 13 23:24:01 <chaosvoyager> (* looks to see where he's heard "world's first free and open" before *)
Mar 13 23:24:52 <chaosvoyager> Hmm, OpenMoko: The World\rquote s First Integrated Open Source Mobile Communications Platform...(* inhale *). You'd think they could shorten it a bit.
Mar 13 23:25:05 <benley> I'm sure Sun has called things "world's first free and open" a few hundred times
Mar 13 23:26:08 <dcordes> chaosvoyager, well how about "A commitment to openness..."
Mar 13 23:26:30 <dcordes> this accordingly to android is required to create a better mobile phone
Mar 13 23:26:53 <chaosvoyager> dcordes: actually, that's much better.
Mar 13 23:26:53 <dcordes> jasta, is propagating the opposite
Mar 13 23:27:34 <dcordes> what he descriped is from my point of view a missuse of the word oppenness
Mar 13 23:28:35 <romainguy> \o/
Mar 13 23:28:39 <romainguy> my MacPro has just shipped
Mar 13 23:28:49 <benley> woot
Mar 13 23:28:59 <benley> I like mine.  I'd like it better if it was smaller, though.
Mar 13 23:29:00 <jasonchen> romainguy: nice.  how did you have it configured?
Mar 13 23:29:10 <chaosvoyager> ... and there was much rejoicing.
Mar 13 23:29:35 <romainguy> jasonchen: 8-cores, 2 GB of RAM (+ 6 GB I bought elsewhere), 1 TB of HDD
Mar 13 23:29:42 <romainguy> jasonchen: and the Nvidia 8800 GT
Mar 13 23:29:43 <dcordes> I don't see any point in this. Enjoy your not-so-fucking-open-path of victory
Mar 13 23:30:20 <jasonchen> romainguy: niiice.  i've been contemplating getting one for my photography
Mar 13 23:30:20 <davidw> jasonchen, so... is recording definitely not working ?  there's a -mic option for the emulator...
Mar 13 23:30:28 <romainguy> jasonchen: that's actually why I bought this one
Mar 13 23:30:34 <sayao> romainguy: i would have to work 3 months to pay this machine heheh
Mar 13 23:30:42 <jasonchen> davidw: i don't know the latest, but i'm fairly certain that it isn't totally working yet
Mar 13 23:30:44 <romainguy> jasonchen: LightRoom and PS CS3 were just killing  my MBP 1st gen
Mar 13 23:30:52 <davidw> ok, thanks
Mar 13 23:31:05 <jasonchen> romainguy: ah, same here.  i want one for Aperture 2.0.
Mar 13 23:31:06 <chaosvoyager> But where's the nVidia 9XXX support?
Mar 13 23:31:11 <benley> romainguy: I use lightroom on my mbp and it seems to do OK
Mar 13 23:31:27 <benley> romainguy: (one of the 2.33ghz ones with 2gb ram and a 7200rpm drive)
Mar 13 23:31:34 <romainguy> benley: it does OK, but after a couple of hours of use it starts sucking
Mar 13 23:31:34 <benley> need more ram though :(
Mar 13 23:31:35 <jasonchen> benley: how big are the RAW files that you're working with?
Mar 13 23:31:47 <romainguy> benley: and with CS3 opened on the side...
Mar 13 23:31:52 <benley> jasonchen: 10mp off of a d80
Mar 13 23:31:57 <benley> yeah I don't run photoshop at the same time :)
Mar 13 23:32:06 <romainguy> benley: and the MBP also doesn't really like driving the 30" screen :))
Mar 13 23:32:22 <benley> romainguy: yeah, I have noticed that too :-P
Mar 13 23:32:32 <benley> romainguy: it's better if it doesn't drive the internal lcd at the same time
Mar 13 23:33:02 <romainguy> benley: it doesn't
Mar 13 23:33:11 <romainguy> but still... exposé is sometimes atrocious :)
Mar 13 23:37:06 <davidw> sleep time...driving back to Italy tomorrow... yay! :-)
Mar 13 23:37:14 <benley> romainguy: does your mbp just not drive a 30" screen at all?
Mar 13 23:37:32 <romainguy> benley: it does, it just gets slow when things start to animate on screen
Mar 13 23:37:38 <romainguy> like Lightroom's fades
Mar 13 23:38:21 <benley> ah
Mar 13 23:38:47 <benley> anyway, I use a 24" with mine most of the time when I'm doing photo stuff
Mar 13 23:38:57 <benley> and it's able to keep up with that fairly well
Mar 13 23:39:00 <chaosvoyager> <lament> why oh why didn't they upgrade the GPU on the MBP, why </lament>
Mar 13 23:39:05 <benley> but again, I don't run photoshop much.
Mar 13 23:39:18 <romainguy> benley: it's definitely usable, it just grinds my patience after a couple hours
Mar 13 23:39:25 <benley> understandable :)
Mar 13 23:40:15 <benley> I kinda wish I had a macpro at home.
Mar 13 23:40:49 <chaosvoyager> resulting in a fine patience powder highly sought after in traditional holistic medicine.
Mar 13 23:41:33 <jasta> so, i think it's come time for me to preparea bunch of patches to the libsyncml guys :)
Mar 13 23:41:43 <romainguy> benley: it's using the MacPro from work which helped me decide :)
Mar 13 23:43:21 <jasta> i'm holding out for a new machine for when StarCraft II is released hehe
Mar 13 23:43:56 <chaosvoyager> I need to decide on either a Mac or PC for Z-Brush, but I can't get hard performance numbers.
Mar 14 00:05:15 <jasta> what's z-brush?
Mar 14 00:06:11 <chaosvoyager> Hard to explain effectively, but it's like a 3d paint and sculpting program.
Mar 14 00:07:58 <chaosvoyager> I hate to sound like a marketing goofball, but the video demos do it far more justice.
Mar 14 00:08:21 <chaosvoyager> 0_0
Mar 14 00:09:35 <chaosvoyager> (* browsing Android Developers *) Now all the sponsered links are in Hebrew.
Mar 14 00:11:13 <chaosvoyager> Does the Googletron get confused as to which ads to put when there's a lot of sourcecode running about?
Mar 14 00:20:59 <proq> chaosvoyager: the blender performance numbers could give you some idea maybe
Mar 14 00:30:48 <proq> the results were a bit silly though, as a dual quad-core MacPro ($4000) was getting 12 second render times, and a quad-core intel q6600 ($500) was getting 24 second render times
Mar 14 00:32:06 <chaosvoyager> proq: hmm...
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