**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 21 02:59:56 2008 Mar 21 04:13:38 is there a calendar app? Mar 21 05:25:26 is there? Mar 21 05:25:39 eh? Mar 21 07:02:07 hey, anyone up? Mar 21 07:02:12 yup Mar 21 07:10:19 hey jasta ok, i'm going whole hog on this android app now, got about 3 weeks for the prize :) Mar 21 07:10:44 do you happen to know anything about calendars or charts? Mar 21 07:11:00 well, i know *something*. Mar 21 07:11:02 i know there are google web calendars and charts already Mar 21 07:11:16 i mean, are there any widgets for the android platform yet, or conventions? Mar 21 07:11:28 man, this skypop youtube video looks pretty neat Mar 21 07:11:48 not that i know of. Mar 21 07:12:04 there is the calendar widget that comes in the apidemo Mar 21 07:12:13 yeah, but it's nothing special Mar 21 07:22:15 hmm i tuses java.util.Calendar Mar 21 07:24:01 oh ok, and the android.app.DatePickerDialog Mar 21 07:54:23 hmm, i just realized this won't work because android's DOM parser still doesn't support CDATASection. Mar 21 07:54:57 so, i'm gonna have to finally do the hard job of converting my entire SyncML implementation to WBXML. Mar 21 08:15:37 why does Location not provide for input in long's such as megadegrees? Mar 21 09:05:18 seems inefficient since map ovelrays require integers Mar 21 09:05:29 so there is an unnecessary conversion from double/float Mar 21 09:05:41 especially when calculation distance between 2 Location objects Mar 21 09:06:05 basically i need a WGS84 (or equivalent, i dont care too much about accuracy) method for calculating distance Mar 21 09:06:19 i was thinking cartesian distance formula Mar 21 09:06:32 assume the earth is flat Mar 21 09:06:39 the only distances i care about are: Mar 21 09:06:46 1) if you're cloes it should be within 10 meters Mar 21 09:06:56 2) if you're far, it can be within +/- 10km or so Mar 21 09:07:12 close as in 0 to 100 km Mar 21 09:07:20 far as in > 100 km Mar 21 09:07:21 ideas? Mar 21 10:28:15 anyone know about using charts in android? Like jfreechart? Mar 21 12:33:36 hey, anyone around? Mar 21 15:07:39 hmm, interesting. my app ran out of memory. Mar 21 15:12:54 alzeimer? :) Mar 21 16:21:45 mike1o: i'm not sure at all how this happened. there should not be the possibility of a persistent reference in this code Mar 21 16:21:48 maybe a dalvik bug? Mar 21 18:19:19 http://www.newsvisual.com/newsvisual/2008/03/personal-conn-2.html Mar 21 18:31:37 that would be evil. Mar 21 18:32:25 muthu: the first paragraph of this article suggests to me that these people don't have any idea what they're talking about. Mar 21 18:32:55 yeah, appears to be nonsense to me too Mar 21 18:33:21 we all know that Google doesn't want to be bed partners with any wireless carrier. That's in direct opposition to their plan. Mar 21 18:34:03 Google clearly doesn't want to launch Android ruthlessly tethered to a particular carrier like Apple did (whethery they wanted to or not). Mar 21 18:35:43 whether* Mar 21 18:40:23 whoa, i just plugged in this new laptop and the connection to the socket sparked like nothing i'd ever seen before Mar 21 18:40:32 it was alarming Mar 21 18:45:43 hey jasta Mar 21 19:32:43 muthu: hi :) Mar 21 19:34:33 enjoying your weekend? Mar 21 19:34:37 sure, it's ok Mar 21 19:34:40 just got off work Mar 21 19:34:50 for good friday Mar 21 19:34:56 cool Mar 21 19:35:16 now i have the unfortunate task of debugging what appears to be a very large memory leak. Mar 21 19:35:26 oops Mar 21 19:35:39 and, i have to finally implement my stupid SyncML library using WBXML Mar 21 19:35:42 have fun! Mar 21 19:35:59 then its time for me to go to bed, i guess.. Mar 21 19:36:04 good night buddy Mar 21 19:55:21 * jasta wonders if the sqlite3 format is portable Mar 21 20:00:14 What do you mean by portable? Mar 21 20:00:25 It's LGPL, if I remember correctly Mar 21 20:02:47 jasta: I've used a local sqlite3 db and loaded it up in android Mar 21 20:02:55 jasta: haven't tried the other way though Mar 21 20:03:30 ph Mar 21 20:03:32 oh Mar 21 20:05:43 hi guys i need some sample code to test in android any help? but not in beginners level Mar 21 20:06:05 please be more specific Mar 21 20:07:27 im just a beginner in android still im learning android api but i need to see its power so i need a sample code to test it Mar 21 20:07:31 something in pro level Mar 21 20:07:45 Not really sure what's out there yet Mar 21 20:09:01 cancer: uhh, so you want to see "professional" code written against Android? do you suppose that any commercially developed code for Android is open source at the moment? Mar 21 20:09:30 Also, what does "pro" really mean to you? Commercial or simply non-trivial? If the latter, you can find quite a bit of it. Mar 21 20:09:30 not sure Mar 21 20:09:59 'pro' i mean something far from hello world Mar 21 20:10:02 cancer: don't think there's anything yet, your best bet might be some of the svn repos of the projects at code.google.com or helloandroid.com/apps Mar 21 20:10:13 cancer: That isn't what "pro" means; please adjust your vocabulary. That said, it exists. Mar 21 20:10:54 But none of it is released for mass consumption. Development of non-trivial applications takes much more time than that. Mar 21 20:11:15 Also, you won't find the source code to many folks' Android Developer Challenge projects yet, as they are keeping them closed source until at least round 1 has ended. Mar 21 20:11:39 oh thats ok Mar 21 20:13:09 Why are you interested in this anyway? Mar 21 20:13:20 If you are attempting to learn Android, starting with well established code will not get you very far. Mar 21 20:15:08 no just to see wats android is capable of Mar 21 20:15:31 cancer: keep an eye out after april 14 Mar 21 20:15:46 Android is one of the most flexible mobile platforms that has ever been released. Trust us, it can do a lot. Mar 21 20:16:30 What code is available for it now, while it is not even commercially launched, is not a good example of what it can do. Mar 21 20:16:36 y after 14th??? Mar 21 20:16:44 cancer: The android developer challenge first round deadline is Apr 14. Mar 21 20:17:37 many folks will be releasing their applications publicly then, and google will be choosing winners after that. Mar 21 20:17:57 oh for the round challenge eh Mar 21 20:18:35 For example, I am working on an application which will permit you to seamlessly access your home media collection (music, for example) through your phone and integrate social services like last.fm to enhance the player experience further. Mar 21 20:21:35 Android, for the most part, has not gotten in my way at all. However, it still has bugs and quirks currently, which are being actively fixed. Mar 21 20:30:28 whoa... it exists Mar 21 20:30:43 what exists? Mar 21 20:30:46 it! Mar 21 20:30:54 the segway? :) Mar 21 20:31:00 or segue Mar 21 20:31:04 the IT :) Mar 21 20:31:26 yeah.. anyway Mar 21 20:31:51 does this room discuss google android? Mar 21 20:31:59 yep Mar 21 20:32:09 or is it some kind of c3po chat or something Mar 21 20:32:18 beep boop boop Mar 21 20:32:19 racarter: no, this is androi fanboi. discussion is elsewhere Mar 21 20:32:37 *android Mar 21 20:32:43 racarter: Android is a mobile operating system being developed by Google and partners. Mar 21 20:33:04 android is also fluent in more than five million forms of communication. oh dear oh dear Mar 21 20:33:30 ok good then my question is can i install android on my iphone? Mar 21 20:33:37 and have it work Mar 21 20:33:49 no, you cannot. Mar 21 20:34:00 Android is not an application for an existing platform, it is a platform. Mar 21 20:34:27 racarter: you can install android on some zauruses, and a very limited set of other hardware Mar 21 20:35:03 And even then, you will not like the experience you find. Much work would be required to develop it into a useful device. Mar 21 20:35:13 no phones though :( Mar 21 20:36:26 racarter: Android's current target audience is exclusively developers. All others can happily ignore it until commercial handsets are launched at the end of 2008 and into 2009. Mar 21 20:36:32 is the problem just lack of drivers? Mar 21 20:36:45 lack of source Mar 21 20:36:48 commercial handsets produced by whom? Mar 21 20:37:01 racarter: HTC, Samsung, Motorola, and LG. Mar 21 20:37:24 racarter: Refer to the Open Handset Alliance web site for more details on Android's commercial interest. Mar 21 20:37:30 android is using a linux kernel, is it possible to install android on a pc? Mar 21 20:37:46 racarter: No, because Android is built for a particular ARM processor, of which your PC does not have. Mar 21 20:37:50 only arm binaries are available Mar 21 20:38:31 hmm.. the source is available right? can it be compiled for another processor? say intel? Mar 21 20:38:32 Of course, the emulator is how we all interact with the platform, which can run on many platforms. Mar 21 20:38:41 which ARM ? Mar 21 20:38:53 racarter: No, Android is marketed as open source, but that code is being reserved for the official launch. Mar 21 20:39:02 5 I think Mar 21 20:39:04 Currently only the kernel and webkit are open sourced. Mar 21 20:39:06 wtf Mar 21 20:39:27 that's nonsense the source should be available Mar 21 20:39:38 I agree, it wouldn't hurt anything Mar 21 20:40:05 hmm.. is google a friend of open source? Mar 21 20:40:11 why is google making an os anyway? Mar 21 20:40:23 racarter: The reason they have withheld the source seems sensible, at least to me. Mar 21 20:40:28 isn't it obvious? Mar 21 20:40:32 I disagree with it, and I don't like it, but I can see where they are coming from. Mar 21 20:40:57 They don't want to deal with the marketing fiasco that would ensue. Lots of folks would have Android running on commercially available devices and would be "showing off" a very incomplete, embarrassingly buggy product. Mar 21 20:41:06 webkit.. is there a different rendering engine for mozilla? Mar 21 20:41:11 racarter: Yes. Mar 21 20:41:45 jasta, i don't think i agree with that logic Mar 21 20:41:58 racarter: I don't agree with it either, but I do understand it. Mar 21 20:42:05 and I can appreciate their reasoning. Mar 21 20:42:56 ever since Android was announced, Google has been struggling with the public relations aspect as news media is perpetually misunderstanding what exactly they mean by a "release". Mar 21 20:43:17 jasta: never thought about people runnning the current buggy platofrm on their phones and Android getting a bad wrap Mar 21 20:43:33 Like I said, Google's intentions are clear: they want developers paying attention, and end users going the hell away :) Mar 21 20:45:03 zhobbs: And they would. I, for one, would not want to use an Android phone in its current state. Mar 21 20:45:08 why do they want developers? they have plenty of their own im sure Mar 21 20:45:36 what does iphone use, just a normal mac os x / bsd kernel Mar 21 20:45:38 ? Mar 21 20:45:53 racarter: more or less, I think Mar 21 20:45:55 racarter: Because Google is hoping to spur innovation through Android in what is currently a very dim and bleek mobile industry. Mar 21 20:46:23 And to do that, developers must be enticed to experiment, learn, and develop for the platform. Mar 21 20:46:27 racarter: porting osx applications to it seems to be fairly tribial Mar 21 20:46:38 s/tribial/trivial/ Mar 21 20:46:38 B0jangles meant: racarter: porting osx applications to it seems to be fairly trivial Mar 21 20:46:52 why android? why not develop for another platform? Mar 21 20:46:54 woh Mar 21 20:47:05 racarter: This is the reasoning they have created the Android Developer Challenge. They are hoping to throw some money behind the problem and ensure that developers pay attention. Mar 21 20:47:33 blah blah blah typa blah blah Mar 21 20:47:39 s/typa/typo/ Mar 21 20:47:40 B0jangles meant: blah blah blah typo blah blah Mar 21 20:47:45 racarter: I can only answer for myself personally, but other mobile platforms are notoriously restricted, clumsy, poorly developed, etc. Developer is hard and slow. Mar 21 20:47:47 That's friggin' amazing Mar 21 20:48:04 jasta: J2ME is a PITA Mar 21 20:48:04 Development* Mar 21 20:48:32 what else can infobot do? Mar 21 20:48:40 racarter: Specifically comparing Android to Palm's ACCESS platform, Nokia s60, Windows Mobile, etc. Android is a dream by contrast. Mar 21 20:48:50 B0jangles: Other than a simple perl one-liner? Probably little else. Mar 21 20:49:23 ok.. i can ssh into my iphone.. i think you can run python and ruby scripts etc Mar 21 20:49:37 s/[a-z]/[A-Z]/ Mar 21 20:49:43 the android platform is nice but can it be bypassed to run normal apps Mar 21 20:49:45 racarter: and perl :) Mar 21 20:49:46 racarter: I doubt that very much. Apple has placed in their licensing of the SDK that you can't develop a scripting language. Mar 21 20:50:25 racarter: Android is not unlike other smart phone platforms in that sense. Mar 21 20:50:58 For example, I could go install Windows, buy Visual Studio, and develop, release and even sell my Windows Mobile applications as much as I wish. Mar 21 20:51:20 The difference here is that Android is well-designed, sensible, and powerful. Windows Mobile is a kludgey piece of shit. Mar 21 20:51:33 i think i want a linux os on my phone Mar 21 20:52:15 racarter: Well, that's fine, but that is not at the forefront of what Android is attempting to accomplish. Mar 21 20:52:40 Linux was surely chosen simply because it was the most sensible place to start building a new mobile OS. It's free, can be stripped down, reasonably efficient, easy to develop against, etc. Mar 21 20:52:49 but, if android is installed on my phone, can i still ssh into it and do linux stuff? Mar 21 20:52:55 don't forget the fun penguin Mar 21 20:53:06 racarter: That depends entirely. We've been having this discussion quite a bit lately. Mar 21 20:53:24 we? Mar 21 20:53:35 For example, what if there is no shell on Android? And no command-line tools installed? Mar 21 20:53:40 you can ssh into an iPhone, it would seem reasonable that you could ssh into an Android phone if somebody writes/ports an sshd Mar 21 20:53:55 So you could port one, and port busybox and some other tools. And then you could write an SSH server in Java or whatever. Mar 21 20:54:03 And then you could install that stuff painstakingly. Mar 21 20:54:08 And then what? Has that helped you do anything? Mar 21 20:54:23 I like having sshd on my iTouch Mar 21 20:54:32 So, yes, it would be a good thing to have Mar 21 20:54:41 Right, but aside from being a tinkering geek, what does it really provide? Mar 21 20:55:03 I suppose you've got me there Mar 21 20:55:32 Well, if somebody wrote a user-friendly application, one could wirelessly sync their MP3 collection Mar 21 20:55:52 I, for example, run OpenWRT on all my routers because I adore the flexibility of iptables, tcpdump/tshark, etc. They are powerful, elegant tools that help me run my network the way that I want and with little fuss. Mar 21 20:56:17 And I think OpenWRT is a nicely developed mini distribution, with a good package management utility, etc. Mar 21 20:56:39 Like, you could have an aTunes application that wirelessly synced your songs over ssh Mar 21 20:56:51 Assuming your phone is also a media player Mar 21 20:57:06 But do I think that there is similar value in hacking my cell phone? Well, no. I am excited to see what other hackers come up with, but until then, I can imagine no useful reason to hack an Android phone. Mar 21 20:57:22 B0jangles: I am developing an application natively for Android that wirelessly syncs your songs. Mar 21 20:57:36 cool Mar 21 20:57:53 It will be a lot better than a kludgy rsync/ssh mix (which wouldn't work for shit anyway because you only have as much space as your storage card provides) Mar 21 20:58:11 That's I suppose my point. Mobile phones are very much so about the direct human interface. Mar 21 20:58:20 how would your solution get around storage? Mar 21 20:58:39 B0jangles: It uses the card as a cache only, and downloads actual content on demand (but synchronizes meta data passively) Mar 21 20:58:46 ah Mar 21 20:58:59 My point is, Android is sure to be very flexible and people will do lots of cool hacking on it. Mar 21 20:59:11 Will much of that be interesting at the kernel level? Highly unlikely. Mar 21 20:59:27 That said, Google's decision to use Linux excites me very much in another way. Mar 21 20:59:36 sexually? Mar 21 20:59:52 oh dear Mar 21 20:59:53 With the OHA, Google has ensured that we will see a new era of stable, robust Linux kernel drivers for advanced, modern cell phone chips. Mar 21 21:00:11 aye Mar 21 21:00:42 With this, I could imagine hobbyist folks doing all sorts of exciting things by purchasing an OEM chip from say TI or Intel, putting it on a small board and installing it in their car or something to have an Internet jukebox type thing. Mar 21 21:00:56 They could buy a family plan or whatever, and get unlimited data, then go to down :) Mar 21 21:01:00 go to town* Mar 21 21:01:30 and you wouldn't need to mess with hacking an Android phone at all, which would be sort of stupid. You'd take the much smaller chip, the wealth of available Linux drivers, combine them to create your own very cool set up. Mar 21 21:02:28 Currently, Linux has very poor support for wireless devices. Android is going to be a very strong force to change that, and is quite probably entirely unintentional. Mar 21 21:03:11 That said, do I care if I have ssh running on my phone? No, not at all. Do I like that Android uses Linux, is open source, and is very flexible to develop against? Yes, very much so. Mar 21 21:03:37 so if there was an installer application that had 'sshd listed, you Mar 21 21:03:42 wouldn't click on it? Mar 21 21:04:17 Probably not for any other reason than to debug some broken thing I wrote. Mar 21 21:05:00 for that reason alone it would be worth having Mar 21 21:05:20 I suppose, but I would say it is very unlikely that I will ever want to debug an actual phone. Mar 21 21:05:27 shit, just to run 'top' to see that the IRC application you installed is the thing that's draining your battery... Mar 21 21:05:29 is this an acurate statement.. google android is an development framework that wraps an underlying linux kernel? Mar 21 21:05:40 There is a reason why emulators exist for nearly every mobile platform. Developing on real hardware is frustrating. Mar 21 21:06:08 jasta: yeah, but before you release something, you have to test it on hardware first Mar 21 21:06:29 racarter: More or less, yes. Instead, I would call it an application stack, which suggests the layering of the Linux kernel, other open source components, and the Android framework as written by Google and friends. Mar 21 21:06:53 B0jangles: Yeah, and if the emulator is worth a damn, it will work perfectly when I do. Mar 21 21:07:02 good luck with that ;-) Mar 21 21:07:14 The emulator isn't just some silly trick. It emulates an ARMv5 processor and boots Android precisely as it is to be on a real phone. Mar 21 21:07:34 Any difference between the two would be attributes to a bug in QEMU. Mar 21 21:07:45 attributed* Mar 21 21:07:47 Yeah, the Sun J2ME emulator is supposed to work too, but then you test your app on a phone, and it doesn't work... Mar 21 21:08:14 That said, if I was a retarded monkey, I might find lots of race conditions and other concurrency nasties when moving to real hardware. Mar 21 21:08:43 But I am not a retarded monkey, and I can manage the complexity of concurrency just fine. Mar 21 21:08:52 Carmack said it best "Write once, run anywhere? Ha! Ha ha ha ha h ah ah a!" Mar 21 21:09:03 B0jangles: That is because the J2ME emulator is not worth a damn. And also because J2ME is a miserable platform. Mar 21 21:09:14 B0jangles: Yes, and that is how good developers actually work in practice. Mar 21 21:09:27 Instead of retarded monkeys, as I previously mentioned. Mar 21 21:09:28 jasta: agreed. but we have yet to see if the the Android emulator is any better Mar 21 21:10:02 B0jangles: That's not true. The Android emulator is simply QEMU. We know that QEMU is quite good. Mar 21 21:10:20 I hope so Mar 21 21:11:45 Well, I have used QEMU quite a lot for many other projects. I applaud Android for using it for the basis of their SDK. Mar 21 21:12:21 It would be stupid for them to have written something custom for Android. Mar 21 21:38:58 jasta: google didn't write android per se. google acquired android from two very smart developers Mar 21 21:39:22 racarter: yeah, I feel your pain. I asked the same question here a few days ago Mar 21 21:40:16 racarter: the thing is, there are many many tools on android already. and if the phones on which android exists are geeky enough, people will port more tools to android Mar 21 21:41:03 proq: Will you be one such person porting tools? Mar 21 21:41:08 racarter: or the opposite will happen. they will port their tools to java or ajax applications Mar 21 21:41:23 jasta: I have written an emacs client in ajax, yes Mar 21 21:41:52 Huh? Why? Mar 21 21:42:03 because emacs is my OS of choice Mar 21 21:42:22 but why write a web frontend to it? Mar 21 21:42:43 google has a similar approach. one of their summer of code projects is to write a javascript implementation over elisp Mar 21 21:42:55 jasta: well that's top sekrit Mar 21 21:43:32 it isn't a frontend either. the entire app is in ajax Mar 21 21:43:51 with the exception of persisting data Mar 21 21:43:56 what is Mar 21 21:43:57 ? Mar 21 21:44:03 That doesn't make any sense to me. Mar 21 21:44:06 an emacs client I'm working on Mar 21 21:44:10 What does such a thing help you do? Mar 21 21:44:17 you're writing an emacs client in AJAX? Mar 21 21:44:32 wrote, actually. it's on the shelf atm Mar 21 21:44:38 huh Mar 21 21:44:56 proq: jasta: google didn't write android per se. google acquired android from two very smart developers << ah :) Mar 21 21:45:22 romainguy_: ? Mar 21 21:46:00 jasta: assertions about what's going on are just interesting :) Mar 21 21:46:08 proq is right about that, though. i should adjust my comments :) Mar 21 21:47:32 romainguy_: So, does Dalvik have any pointy GC anomalies I should know about? Because my program's heap size keeps growing and growing... Mar 21 21:47:44 but iam certain that there are no persistent references to the objects causing it to grow so fast Mar 21 21:47:48 if your heap is growing, you're leaking Mar 21 21:48:02 anyway Mar 21 21:48:07 I'm away for a few days Mar 21 21:48:08 Yes, but where? :) Mar 21 21:49:12 in your code :) Mar 21 21:49:25 I actually don't think so. Mar 21 21:49:51 I'm churning a lot of data, but it is tightly controlled in a scope that should be easily erasable. Mar 21 21:50:04 or you could be exploiting a memory leak in dalvik Mar 21 21:50:11 That's more like what I'm thinking :) Mar 21 21:51:04 kaboom, it finally exploded again Mar 21 21:53:01 * jasta fires up ddms Mar 21 21:53:10 i ahven't explored this tool much; perhaps it can help me isolate the problem. Mar 21 21:58:47 hmm, looks like it's triggered by a not so graceful allocation attempt of 115874 bytes :) Mar 21 21:59:02 or at least, the oom killer was triggered by that Mar 21 21:59:37 does anyone know of a charting library for android? Mar 21 21:59:48 has anyone gotten jfreechart ported? Mar 21 22:00:18 This is interesting, but I dont' think it's released yet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZLueEEtoJ8 Mar 21 22:02:24 proq, an emacs client in ajax? Mar 21 22:02:38 rhett: yep Mar 21 22:02:53 is that available? Mar 21 22:03:08 rhett: no, it's not finished Mar 21 22:03:10 what exactly is an "emacs client" compared to just emacs Mar 21 22:03:51 rhett: emacs can exist as a server or client Mar 21 22:03:59 rhett: for example, M-x server-start Mar 21 22:04:11 what does that do? Mar 21 22:04:25 will make your emacs act as a server that handles all emacs sessions Mar 21 22:04:34 werid Mar 21 22:04:55 ugh Mar 21 22:04:58 so if you svn commit, for example, it will switch to your running emacs instead of starting another instance of emacs Mar 21 22:08:34 hmm, busybox top on android does not seem to accurately reflect process memory usage. Mar 21 22:08:44 it shows all of the com.google.* processes for me as using 75% each Mar 21 22:09:02 jasta, it's probably sharing resources Mar 21 22:09:45 oh, of course Mar 21 22:10:06 so does anyone have luck porting things like Jfreechart? It would be good if that was open Mar 21 22:10:33 i suspose I can draw my own charts from scratch with the 2d library Mar 21 22:10:58 why Mar 21 22:11:11 why, what f00f- ? Mar 21 23:42:29 Hmm, I think the leak is in Base64Utils.decodeBase64..... **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Mar 22 02:59:56 2008