**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Apr 18 02:59:56 2008
Apr 18 03:08:12 <Kraln> romainguy: ota is broken in m15.
Apr 18 03:08:39 <Kraln> the permission or something doesn't work, or so I read
Apr 18 03:39:47 <jasta> hmmm
Apr 18 03:41:03 <Kraln> mmm?
Apr 18 03:43:51 <Kraln> tell you what jasta; phase two of the androidchat plan was creating communication streams between users on the network
Apr 18 03:43:56 <Kraln> that could be utilized by other applications
Apr 18 03:44:31 <jasta> not quite the generalization i had in mind
Apr 18 03:44:33 <Kraln> sort of like a generalized networking layer. games could use it for match ups, stuff of th elike
Apr 18 03:44:33 <jasta> but sure ;)
Apr 18 03:44:56 <Kraln> and yes, having people get buzzed when they walk near enough to a chat channel or another person
Apr 18 03:45:25 <Kraln> honestly these are things I wanted in the original release, but I didnt touch it for three months. c'est la vie
Apr 18 04:17:53 <umdk1d4> yay!  i jsut got an android irc lient written  :D
Apr 18 04:17:57 * umdk1d4 goes to bring it onto freenode
Apr 18 04:22:12 <michaelnovakjr> haha umdk1d4 so have like 5 other people
Apr 18 04:22:59 <jasta> can anyone speculate as to why someone would use a ByteArrayOutputStream to in a loop like while (true) { int i = in.read(); ... byteout.write(i); } String foo = new String(byteout.toByteArray());
Apr 18 04:23:01 <umdk1d4> michaelnovakjr: true but do they have working source code posted somewhere?  i looked around but didnt find any
Apr 18 04:23:09 <michaelnovakjr> yea they do
Apr 18 04:23:13 <umdk1d4> orly?  where
Apr 18 04:23:15 <jasta> why wouldn't you use a StringBuilder in that case?  StringBuilder would presumably be more efficient as it would not need to copy the array twice
Apr 18 04:23:27 <michaelnovakjr> yea, wow where's that code?
Apr 18 04:23:35 <jasta> it's in kxml2.
Apr 18 04:23:39 <michaelnovakjr> geez
Apr 18 04:23:42 <jasta> WbxmlParser.java, readStrI
Apr 18 04:24:09 <michaelnovakjr> unless they were getting garbage using the terrible String objects in java :)
Apr 18 04:24:14 <jasta> seems really unusual?  the ByteArrayOutputStream is created and destroyed in that same function, with no external interfaces that would demand an OutputStream
Apr 18 04:24:17 <michaelnovakjr> i've seen it happen
Apr 18 04:24:21 <jasta> I figured I must be missing something.  That perhaps the ByteArrayOutputStream approach has some advantage I can't see?
Apr 18 04:24:50 <michaelnovakjr> the only thing that comes to mind is that the java String classes suck
Apr 18 04:25:05 <jasta> Surely they are not deficient in this way?
Apr 18 04:25:26 <michaelnovakjr> i have had problems with xml data in String objects
Apr 18 04:25:35 <michaelnovakjr> not every time though :)
Apr 18 04:25:40 <jasta> My only thought is that the author is unsure of how to translate the integer returned by in.read() into a char or byte to supply to StringBuilder
Apr 18 04:25:55 <jasta> not realizing that (char)(i & 0xff) would do it.
Apr 18 04:26:02 <michaelnovakjr> could be, i mean i used all strings in my xml code for android
Apr 18 04:26:07 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Apr 18 04:26:12 <michaelnovakjr> could very well be
Apr 18 04:26:27 <jasta> this seems like a strange library to have such nonsense.  considering it's designed to be efficient.
Apr 18 04:26:35 <jasta> that's why i suspect the author knows something i do not?
Apr 18 04:26:42 <jasta> but i really can't fathom what
Apr 18 04:26:55 <michaelnovakjr> is the guys name in the source file
Apr 18 04:27:15 <jasta> no, but i suppose i could just contact them if i am that curious
Apr 18 04:27:22 <michaelnovakjr> indeed
Apr 18 04:27:47 <michaelnovakjr> my server is being a pain
Apr 18 04:28:01 <michaelnovakjr> stupid crons aren't kicking off
Apr 18 04:28:42 <michaelnovakjr> wait..... isn't  while(true)  infinite?
Apr 18 04:28:55 <michaelnovakjr> isn't it the same as while(1) ?
Apr 18 04:29:01 <michaelnovakjr> or not in java?
Apr 18 04:29:10 <jasta> there's a break in there obviously :)
Apr 18 04:29:18 <michaelnovakjr> i would hope so :)
Apr 18 04:29:35 <jasta> also, that brings me to another question
Apr 18 04:29:35 <michaelnovakjr> is that even efficient?
Apr 18 04:29:48 <raidfive> it depends on the situation michaelnovakjr
Apr 18 04:29:52 <jasta> why does ByteArrayOutputStream.toByteArray yield a copy?
Apr 18 04:30:17 <jasta> i noticed that the buffer internally is protected, so you could extend the class to offer a non-copied version, but it seems strange to me.
Apr 18 04:30:29 <jasta> like, why would the interface be implemented such that you can access the byte array once .close() has been called?
Apr 18 04:30:46 <jasta> ByteArrayOutputStream foo = ...; foo.write(stuff); foo.close(); byte[] bar = foo.toByteArray()
Apr 18 04:31:01 <jasta> why would this scenario necessitate an array copy?
Apr 18 04:31:06 <michaelnovakjr> what do they do with bar?
Apr 18 04:31:32 <jasta> I'm not referring to the kxml2 code anymore, but to this particular Java class.
Apr 18 04:31:47 <jasta> toByteArray() on ByteArrayOutputStream is a copy by definition.  But why?
Apr 18 04:32:06 <jasta> I figure that this must not be a simple omission?
Apr 18 04:32:22 <jasta> i suppose i should ask #java
Apr 18 04:33:32 <michaelnovakjr> yes, it is definitely a copy
Apr 18 04:33:46 <michaelnovakjr> why is a good question
Apr 18 04:36:56 <androidirc> D
Apr 18 04:37:06 <androidirc> D rather
Apr 18 04:37:22 <androidirc> hmm
Apr 18 04:37:31 <michaelnovakjr> go away
Apr 18 04:37:40 <umdk1d4> ...
Apr 18 04:42:18 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: hehe, the newer version of kxml2 changed to StringBuffer ;)
Apr 18 04:43:39 <michaelnovakjr> hah
Apr 18 04:43:49 <michaelnovakjr> still while(true)?
Apr 18 04:43:54 <jasta> yeah
Apr 18 04:44:30 <michaelnovakjr> we were trying to use the new version right?
Apr 18 04:44:36 <michaelnovakjr> you * not we haha
Apr 18 04:44:37 <jasta> what?
Apr 18 04:44:46 <jasta> oh yeah, i was, but i ended up not
Apr 18 04:44:56 <michaelnovakjr> issues?
Apr 18 04:45:05 <jasta> im just reading the source to figure out why it is not parsing my data correctly
Apr 18 04:45:07 * Kraln stabs androidirc
Apr 18 04:45:20 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Apr 18 04:45:31 <umdk1d4> hey be nice
Apr 18 04:45:37 <umdk1d4> why is everyone so attacking in here tonight?  :P
Apr 18 04:46:00 <umdk1d4> the one client i found was ircell, but they only had gui mockups
Apr 18 04:46:02 <michaelnovakjr> unreleased anger from the challenge
Apr 18 04:46:06 <umdk1d4> lol
Apr 18 04:46:13 <michaelnovakjr> Kraln didn't you do an irc client?
Apr 18 04:46:23 <Kraln> yeah, four months ago
Apr 18 04:46:33 <umdk1d4> Kraln: does it have a site?  ;)
Apr 18 04:46:37 <Kraln> mine evolved into www.androidchat.net
Apr 18 04:46:50 <michaelnovakjr> i dig t
Apr 18 04:47:09 <Kraln> its no longer general purpose, but if you wanted to make it general purpose it'd take three seconds.
Apr 18 04:47:21 <Kraln> strip out the location stuff, add a text box to the option menu for server selection
Apr 18 04:47:21 <umdk1d4> okay so why is it so hard to find these apps >:(
Apr 18 04:47:35 <umdk1d4> my client i just wrote has coloring  ;)
Apr 18 04:47:47 <umdk1d4> and autosizes correctly for multiple screen sizes
Apr 18 04:47:56 <Kraln> mine autosizes, of course.
Apr 18 04:48:07 <Kraln> as far as coloring and other decoration
Apr 18 04:48:13 <michaelnovakjr> ew colors
Apr 18 04:48:15 <Kraln> we're planning on having themes a-la adium
Apr 18 04:48:30 <Kraln> so... colors aren't as important to us as having a stable, hard to break client
Apr 18 04:48:44 <michaelnovakjr> vi for life!!
Apr 18 04:48:51 <michaelnovakjr> keep it simple stupid!
Apr 18 04:48:55 <michaelnovakjr> that's my motto
Apr 18 04:48:57 <jasta> a stable irc client?  lol
Apr 18 04:49:00 <jasta> is that hard to write? :)
Apr 18 04:49:03 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Apr 18 04:49:16 <umdk1d4> bah joe ftw over vi  ;)
Apr 18 04:49:37 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: This channel is completely full of insane people.
Apr 18 04:49:44 <umdk1d4> on-console code highlighting
Apr 18 04:49:56 <muthu> mornin
Apr 18 04:50:00 <Kraln> jasta: you'd be amazed what some irc servers throw at clients. keeping state can be tough
Apr 18 04:50:07 <michaelnovakjr> good evening
Apr 18 04:50:09 <umdk1d4> how many people in here actuall are doing all their android work on linux?
Apr 18 04:50:17 <umdk1d4> i know i am--gentoo all the way  :D
Apr 18 04:50:26 <michaelnovakjr> i work on mac, windows and linux
Apr 18 04:50:30 <jasta> umdk1d4: I am, probably lots of folks.
Apr 18 04:50:32 <Kraln> umdk1d4: I'm working on a mac
Apr 18 04:50:45 <muthu> fedora core 8
Apr 18 04:50:48 <michaelnovakjr> i found the emulator works better on mac
Apr 18 04:50:54 <romainguy> it definitely does
Apr 18 04:50:57 <jasta> Linux and Mac users almost certainly outnumber Windows.
Apr 18 04:50:58 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Apr 18 04:51:12 <romainguy> jasta: on this chan, sure, overall, yeah right
Apr 18 04:51:28 <jasta> I meant on this chan
Apr 18 04:51:29 <muthu> how about google?
Apr 18 04:51:30 <Kraln> romainguy: apparently my documentation exudes cupertino. *shrug*
Apr 18 04:51:44 <michaelnovakjr> romainguy uses a nifty mac
Apr 18 04:52:13 <umdk1d4> lol do windows users even know what irc is?  :P
Apr 18 04:52:22 <michaelnovakjr> haha i am on windows and using irc
Apr 18 04:52:23 <romainguy> michaelnovakjr: several even :)
Apr 18 04:52:27 <Kraln> umdk1d4: it's called mIRC. yes, they know
Apr 18 04:52:27 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Apr 18 04:52:32 <michaelnovakjr> no
Apr 18 04:52:34 <umdk1d4> shudder @ mirc
Apr 18 04:52:35 <michaelnovakjr> pidgin all the way
Apr 18 04:52:52 <michaelnovakjr> pidgin is a way better chat client than mIRC
Apr 18 04:52:58 <umdk1d4> or hydrairc at least
Apr 18 04:52:58 <muthu> kopete
Apr 18 04:53:04 * Kraln uses Snak
Apr 18 04:53:10 <muthu> got tired of pidgin crashes
Apr 18 04:53:18 <umdk1d4> <3 irssi
Apr 18 04:53:49 <umdk1d4> ssh+irssi+rtorrent+screen is all i need to live  ;)
Apr 18 04:53:58 <umdk1d4> so that begs the question, has anyone written ssh for android yet?
Apr 18 04:54:01 <Kraln> umdk1d4: irssi sucks on osx for no good reason
Apr 18 04:54:04 <Kraln> umdk1d4: yes
Apr 18 04:54:20 <umdk1d4> so why is it so hard to dig around and find these apps?  >:/
Apr 18 04:54:27 <Kraln> helloandroid.com
Apr 18 04:54:53 <umdk1d4> true, but they didnt have your irc client, do they?
Apr 18 04:55:02 <muthu> there's a couple of android portals
Apr 18 04:55:07 <umdk1d4> or maybe i passed over it because it didnt say "irc" in it
Apr 18 04:55:08 <muthu> helloandroid, anddev
Apr 18 04:55:08 <Kraln> this one is good, too: http://www.anddev.org/must_see_android_challenge_submissions-t1746.html
Apr 18 04:55:20 <umdk1d4> yea ive looked through there too
Apr 18 04:55:33 <umdk1d4> (my submission is in that list  ;)
Apr 18 04:55:40 <muthu> umdk1d4: what's that?
Apr 18 04:55:48 <michaelnovakjr> hey i am on that list :)
Apr 18 04:56:09 <umdk1d4> one of em, i like keeping my irl ident away from my irc nick
Apr 18 04:57:14 <muthu> you folks checked out AndNav?
Apr 18 04:57:47 <muthu> HeyTaxi is on my list.. need to review that soon
Apr 18 04:58:34 <muthu> michaelnovakjr__: which one yours?
Apr 18 04:58:37 <poffy> jk
Apr 18 04:58:39 <poffy> woops
Apr 18 04:58:43 <poffy> Wrong window
Apr 18 04:58:43 <poffy> Bah
Apr 18 04:58:57 <michaelnovakjr> WeatherPhone muthu
Apr 18 04:59:10 <muthu> cool.. will check
Apr 18 05:02:47 <michaelnovakjr> i need to get rid of win mobile
Apr 18 05:02:54 <michaelnovakjr> trying to send a txt message the phone freezes
Apr 18 05:06:28 <michaelnovakjr> muthu: what do you think? have you seen my app before?
Apr 18 05:10:35 <muthu> michaelnovakjr__: yet to check out, will do today
Apr 18 05:11:39 <michaelnovakjr> cool
Apr 18 05:11:49 <michaelnovakjr> working on 0.2 already :)
Apr 18 05:11:54 <muthu> great
Apr 18 05:12:14 <michaelnovakjr> more location based abilities and allowing for push services
Apr 18 05:12:25 <muthu> that would be wonderful
Apr 18 05:12:40 <muthu> these real utilities are always helpful
Apr 18 05:13:03 <michaelnovakjr> totally, the phone has to be practical to be successful
Apr 18 05:13:11 <muthu> right
Apr 18 05:13:34 <michaelnovakjr> after talking with average users..... its not the flashy stuff that is attractive.... it is a question of whether it is useful for them
Apr 18 05:13:41 <muthu> exactly
Apr 18 05:13:46 <michaelnovakjr> does the phone provide a function that works for them
Apr 18 05:13:59 <muthu> oh, yes
Apr 18 05:14:03 <michaelnovakjr> it can look really cool but if it doesn't work people will steer very clear of it
Apr 18 05:14:11 <muthu> in fact a few mentioned to me the weather apps were really useful
Apr 18 05:14:20 <muthu> i'm not sure if they were mentioning your weather app
Apr 18 05:14:37 <muthu> but people like em
Apr 18 05:15:02 <michaelnovakjr> mine was created in the wake of the Tennesse tornados here in America
Apr 18 05:15:02 <jasta> damn, looks like i need to include kxml2 2.3.0 :\
Apr 18 05:15:08 <jasta> 2.2.2 is deficient when WAP extension are used
Apr 18 05:15:15 <muthu> oh oh
Apr 18 05:15:21 <michaelnovakjr> some 53 people were killed when it hit in the middle of the night
Apr 18 05:15:40 <muthu> yeah, and apps addressing those kinds of needs will be a big hit
Apr 18 05:16:01 <michaelnovakjr> i am hoping... i was trying to figure out the best way to warn people early enough to protect themselves
Apr 18 05:16:22 <michaelnovakjr> we can't predict them earlier..... so getting the info out there is such an important task
Apr 18 05:16:23 <muthu> hats off to you
Apr 18 05:16:40 <muthu> its a life saver!
Apr 18 05:17:05 <michaelnovakjr> thanks.... the real challenge is supporting as many phones as possible and keeping it completely free
Apr 18 05:17:13 <michaelnovakjr> i don't want to charge users for it
Apr 18 05:17:51 <muthu> great
Apr 18 05:18:22 <muthu> i'm going to include yours as my pick
Apr 18 05:18:37 <michaelnovakjr> wow, thanks
Apr 18 05:19:25 <muthu> welcome.. is it opensource?
Apr 18 05:19:53 <michaelnovakjr> when the product is ready for production release i plan to make it open source
Apr 18 05:19:59 <muthu> cool
Apr 18 05:20:14 <michaelnovakjr> lots of server side work being done to keep the phone side optimized
Apr 18 05:21:00 <muthu> romainguy_: there's a "client mail" in french claiming some urgency in "android-discuss" forums - what does it say?
Apr 18 05:23:16 <michaelnovakjr> any reason android doesn't have the latest kxml2?
Apr 18 05:28:14 <Kraln> hmm
Apr 18 05:28:20 <Kraln> jasta: anyone from india hit your application?
Apr 18 05:29:38 <michaelnovakjr> Kraln: Dan Morril said judges are worldwide....
Apr 18 05:29:44 <michaelnovakjr> could be google......
Apr 18 05:30:59 <muthu> has the judging started?
Apr 18 05:31:25 <michaelnovakjr> i think jasta's server were it already
Apr 18 05:31:42 <umdk1d4> bah this is annoying
Apr 18 05:31:46 <muthu> no, that was testing
Apr 18 05:32:02 <michaelnovakjr> ah to make sure they work?
Apr 18 05:32:10 <muthu> yeah
Apr 18 05:32:12 <michaelnovakjr> cool
Apr 18 05:35:05 <jasta> actually, i talked to morrildl again and he said judging has not begun
Apr 18 05:35:19 <muthu> when it begins?
Apr 18 05:35:20 <jasta> but that my application is specifically part of their deployment systems test case because of my use of multiple apks
Apr 18 05:35:43 <jasta> muthu: i assume when they are ready.  they probably have a lot of internal process they gotta get going
Apr 18 05:35:51 <michaelnovakjr> oh that's right you had more than one apk
Apr 18 05:36:03 <muthu> probably next week
Apr 18 05:36:08 <muthu> and it would be over
Apr 18 05:36:23 <michaelnovakjr> if they want to be ready by the 5th next week could be right
Apr 18 05:36:27 <jasta> i don't suspect it will take long to judge.  but i wish they would release the number of submissions.
Apr 18 05:36:42 <muthu> yes, makes no sense to hide the numbers
Apr 18 05:37:04 <michaelnovakjr> even though they didn't exactly settle on the 5th, the submission success page that results will be released some time soon
Apr 18 05:37:26 <muthu> it has to be 5th
Apr 18 05:37:36 <jasta> no it deosnt
Apr 18 05:37:39 <muthu> coz you need some time for phase II
Apr 18 05:37:52 <jasta> it doesn't have to be the 5th, nowhere does it say they will commit to that date.
Apr 18 05:37:59 <michaelnovakjr> true
Apr 18 05:38:07 <michaelnovakjr> it says 'soon'
Apr 18 05:38:07 <muthu> it doesn't say, but it better be 5th
Apr 18 05:38:13 <muthu> or before
Apr 18 05:38:13 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Apr 18 05:38:19 <muthu> :)
Apr 18 05:38:39 <jasta> i plan to develop regardless.  even if i dont want to win, i want my app to be ready when handsets are
Apr 18 05:38:54 <michaelnovakjr> same here :)
Apr 18 05:39:03 <jasta> so when the judging comes out really doesn't affect my process at all
Apr 18 05:39:06 <michaelnovakjr> which is why i have already started on the next feature set
Apr 18 05:39:09 <jasta> i am anxious to find out, of course
Apr 18 05:39:12 <jasta> me too
Apr 18 05:39:17 <jasta> i'm about to deploy my new and improved sync engine
Apr 18 05:39:17 <muthu> true
Apr 18 05:39:22 <jasta> just finished unit testing
Apr 18 05:39:30 <michaelnovakjr> i just got my servers all up and running in sync with each other
Apr 18 05:39:39 <michaelnovakjr> so they are pulling live data and test data
Apr 18 05:39:47 <muthu> jasta: are you taking a risk?
Apr 18 05:40:01 <jasta> a risk how?
Apr 18 05:40:02 <muthu> by updating the servers, now?
Apr 18 05:40:11 <jasta> uhm, i'm not updating the servers
Apr 18 05:40:16 <michaelnovakjr> i did :)
Apr 18 05:40:20 <muthu> oh oh
Apr 18 05:40:23 <michaelnovakjr> but left the test data alone
Apr 18 05:40:41 <muthu> michaelnovakjr__: you must have some guts!
Apr 18 05:40:49 <michaelnovakjr> haha...
Apr 18 05:40:57 <jasta> i am not going to touch the server until they judge.  i don't want to risk getting caught with my pants down
Apr 18 05:41:04 <muthu> hehe
Apr 18 05:41:09 <michaelnovakjr> i am so paranoid i have my servers hooked up to 5 monitoring services
Apr 18 05:41:12 <muthu> true, once you know it works.. leave it alone
Apr 18 05:41:28 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: my server runs on a production box at my work on our T-1.  I'm not so concerned that it will go down ;)
Apr 18 05:41:49 <michaelnovakjr> same here, i have them on a t-1 but you never know if the machine has failures or what not
Apr 18 05:42:01 <muthu> jasta: your company knows?
Apr 18 05:42:07 <jasta> yeah
Apr 18 05:42:11 <muthu> cool
Apr 18 05:42:18 <muthu> got to love those guys who can get it
Apr 18 05:42:20 <jasta> in a way :)
Apr 18 05:42:20 <michaelnovakjr> what do you develop at work jasta?
Apr 18 05:42:23 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Apr 18 05:42:32 <jasta> my immediate supervisor knows.
Apr 18 05:42:37 <jasta> ;0
Apr 18 05:42:40 <muthu> oh oh
Apr 18 05:42:55 <jasta> i am otherwise tight-lipped about the project
Apr 18 05:43:00 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Apr 18 05:43:04 <jasta> i have only told the folks i like, and who wouldn't rat me out
Apr 18 05:43:17 <michaelnovakjr> what do you develop at work? software?
Apr 18 05:43:24 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: Yes
Apr 18 05:43:29 <michaelnovakjr> cool
Apr 18 05:43:31 <muthu> would hate to see headlines that jasta got fired !!!
Apr 18 05:43:36 <jasta> I write custom sales instruments and automation tools.
Apr 18 05:43:46 <michaelnovakjr> cool, in java?
Apr 18 05:43:52 <jasta> Yeah right ;)
Apr 18 05:43:54 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Apr 18 05:44:08 <jasta> Mostly in Perl, esp for the automation.
Apr 18 05:44:13 <michaelnovakjr> lucky
Apr 18 05:44:16 <michaelnovakjr> i am stuck with java
Apr 18 05:44:22 <jasta> I like Java
Apr 18 05:44:33 <michaelnovakjr> re-phrase...
Apr 18 05:44:39 <michaelnovakjr> java services with jsp frontend
Apr 18 05:44:41 <jasta> I cannot say that I have much to say about it negatively.
Apr 18 05:44:56 <michaelnovakjr> i mostly dislike the jsp and tomcat side of th software
Apr 18 05:45:10 <muthu> the enterprise side is hell
Apr 18 05:45:13 <jasta> My biggest criticism of Java is that it has not been well optimized relative to other languages.  But that's a function of it not being as long-lived.
Apr 18 05:45:13 <michaelnovakjr> i wrote my weather application servers in java, so i don't hate it
Apr 18 05:45:23 <michaelnovakjr> i am a fan of C
Apr 18 05:45:36 <jasta> Although my lesser criticism is that software distribution in Java is not what it should be.
Apr 18 05:45:53 <jasta> Debian and Ubuntu have tried to get ahold of it, and have done a reasonable job.
Apr 18 05:46:02 <jasta> But a larger movement needs to exist to better distribute Java software.
Apr 18 05:46:15 <michaelnovakjr> i am running a full Sun stack here
Apr 18 05:46:20 <michaelnovakjr> software stack that is
Apr 18 05:46:47 <michaelnovakjr> solaris, glassfish, java ee, mysql
Apr 18 05:46:50 <muthu> i'm glad android is in java
Apr 18 05:46:56 <muthu> not in python!!
Apr 18 05:47:04 <michaelnovakjr> it makes sense its in java
Apr 18 05:47:08 <jasta> bbl, doing stuff
Apr 18 05:47:14 <michaelnovakjr> enjoy!
Apr 18 05:47:43 <michaelnovakjr> i have become a supporter of SUn
Apr 18 05:47:50 <michaelnovakjr> the systems are running nice
Apr 18 05:47:59 <muthu> SUN has decent hardware
Apr 18 05:48:10 <muthu> the servers are good
Apr 18 05:48:19 <michaelnovakjr> indeed, although I am running all of it on IBM blade servers
Apr 18 05:48:25 <michaelnovakjr> Sun hardware isn't cheap :)
Apr 18 05:48:31 <muthu> right
Apr 18 05:48:44 <muthu> they have some smb programs, where you can get it cheap
Apr 18 05:49:14 <michaelnovakjr> When researching the server infrastructure it was obvious when deciding on MySQL to use Solairs
Apr 18 05:49:25 <michaelnovakjr> its the most scalable platform for MySQL
Apr 18 05:49:41 <muthu> michaelnovakjr__: you have any suggestion on where to host?
Apr 18 05:49:51 <muthu> the server code..
Apr 18 05:49:52 <michaelnovakjr> hosting for what?
Apr 18 05:50:00 <michaelnovakjr> i have all mine in house
Apr 18 05:50:06 <michaelnovakjr> for the application
Apr 18 05:50:10 <muthu> yeah, but i don't want to
Apr 18 05:50:15 <michaelnovakjr> i use dreamhost for all my other stuff
Apr 18 05:50:23 <muthu> how about amazon?
Apr 18 05:50:23 <michaelnovakjr> websites, subversion, etc
Apr 18 05:50:35 <muthu> or GAE
Apr 18 05:50:42 <michaelnovakjr> i haven't researched amazon much, but i hear good things
Apr 18 05:50:54 <muthu> yeah, i'm going to look into amazon
Apr 18 05:51:04 <muthu> and put all the server code there
Apr 18 05:51:09 <muthu> heard its cheap and best
Apr 18 05:51:17 <michaelnovakjr> server code in java too?
Apr 18 05:51:21 <muthu> no, PHP
Apr 18 05:51:24 <jasta> well, there's google app engine
Apr 18 05:51:32 <muthu> went against java for server side
Apr 18 05:51:32 <michaelnovakjr> i like PHP
Apr 18 05:51:33 <jasta> :P
Apr 18 05:51:38 <jasta> oh lord
Apr 18 05:51:39 <jasta> don't like PHP
Apr 18 05:51:44 <jasta> it rots your brain, like watching MTV
Apr 18 05:51:48 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Apr 18 05:51:55 <muthu> i had to make a choice - java or php
Apr 18 05:51:58 <muthu> went with php
Apr 18 05:52:02 <jasta> that language is pathetic.  miserably designed.
Apr 18 05:52:07 <jasta> if you can even call it that
Apr 18 05:52:12 <jasta> it's like it congealed in a gutter or something
Apr 18 05:52:23 <michaelnovakjr> it does run fast though
Apr 18 05:52:29 <muthu> i took the decision based on the team i had
Apr 18 05:52:29 <jasta> oh whatever
Apr 18 05:52:30 <michaelnovakjr> not the fastest, but its fast
Apr 18 05:52:42 <muthu> facebook is build on php
Apr 18 05:52:43 <jasta> my server, btw, is written in C :)
Apr 18 05:52:50 <michaelnovakjr> YES!!!! C
Apr 18 05:53:23 <Kraln> nice.
Apr 18 05:53:25 <Kraln> fastcgi? or
Apr 18 05:53:30 <jasta> it's not a web service
Apr 18 05:53:30 <Kraln> custom sockets
Apr 18 05:53:33 <Kraln> kay.
Apr 18 05:53:38 <Kraln> and yes, php congealed in a gutter
Apr 18 05:53:45 <jasta> i chose C largely because the libsyncml library was written in C, and is generally the best open source syncml implementation
Apr 18 05:53:57 <jasta> though C is also my strongest language
Apr 18 05:54:00 <michaelnovakjr> C is good for a lot of things
Apr 18 05:54:19 <muthu> haven't touched C since my college days
Apr 18 05:54:23 <Kraln> C is good for.. C
Apr 18 05:54:23 <michaelnovakjr> I use a lot of C for the logic in my Obj-C apps
Apr 18 05:54:24 <jasta> i also used C for its portability.
Apr 18 05:55:06 <muthu> if you can compile on all platforms
Apr 18 05:55:11 <jasta> i envision some day running my Five server on my OpenWRT router connected to the storage server.  That way, my home PC can be shut down or whatever and it still work
Apr 18 05:55:47 <muthu> C is niCe for embedded
Apr 18 05:56:00 <michaelnovakjr> yes, and assembly is good for embedded :)
Apr 18 05:56:02 <Kraln> agreed
Apr 18 05:56:07 <jasta> well, C is by far the most portable computer language ever designed.
Apr 18 05:56:10 <Kraln> green hills is not
Apr 18 05:56:13 <jasta> if you argue that fact, you're an idiot ;)
Apr 18 05:56:22 <michaelnovakjr> of course
Apr 18 05:56:31 <Kraln> jasta: try handling the differences between memory representations ...
Apr 18 05:56:42 <jasta> Kraln: that isn't part of C
Apr 18 05:56:46 <jasta> and therefore i won't.
Apr 18 05:56:50 <Kraln> :-)
Apr 18 05:57:27 <jasta> C does not enforce its sanity on the programmer, which is why it is able to use it for various non-portable things.
Apr 18 05:57:54 <michaelnovakjr> C in my opinion is the best designed language
Apr 18 05:57:55 <jasta> But the language does specify, quite clearly, what will be permitted on all platforms.
Apr 18 05:58:03 <michaelnovakjr> yes
Apr 18 05:58:10 <Kraln> the c language spec
Apr 18 05:58:13 <Kraln> is like a page in a half, iirc
Apr 18 05:58:17 <Kraln> (the original one, at any rate)
Apr 18 05:58:22 <muthu> love the C programming guide
Apr 18 05:58:31 <jasta> Kraln: Uhm, the ANSI C standard is anything but short.
Apr 18 05:58:47 <jasta> and the original C language specification is part of K&R's publication, which is not short either.
Apr 18 05:59:04 <michaelnovakjr> certainly not short....
Apr 18 05:59:10 <muthu> what's K&R doing nowadays?
Apr 18 05:59:16 <jasta> probably being old
Apr 18 05:59:27 <jasta> aren't they like in their 60s?
Apr 18 05:59:28 <Kraln> I was talking about k&r
Apr 18 05:59:38 <muthu> must be
Apr 18 06:00:04 <jasta> bbl, gotta finish programming
Apr 18 06:02:47 <muthu> 1788!!!!
Apr 18 06:02:55 <michaelnovakjr> 1788??
Apr 18 06:02:56 <muthu> that's the number of submissions
Apr 18 06:03:03 <michaelnovakjr> how do you know?
Apr 18 06:03:11 <jasta> wow, i was way off :)
Apr 18 06:03:17 <Kraln> whoah
Apr 18 06:03:21 <Kraln> where'd you get that
Apr 18 06:03:22 <michaelnovakjr> where is that documented
Apr 18 06:03:24 <Kraln> also, that's awesome.
Apr 18 06:03:24 <muthu> developers blog
Apr 18 06:03:27 <umdk1d4> official count from the blog  :)
Apr 18 06:03:32 <umdk1d4> http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/04/android-developers-have-risen-to.html
Apr 18 06:03:40 <muthu> yippy!
Apr 18 06:03:45 <muthu> finally.. they listened
Apr 18 06:03:51 <umdk1d4> just hit my rss  ;)
Apr 18 06:04:01 <umdk1d4> say, anybody gonna be down at google io?
Apr 18 06:04:24 <michaelnovakjr> i wish
Apr 18 06:04:29 <muthu> lot of folks are planning
Apr 18 06:04:47 <michaelnovakjr> i might decide closer to the event
Apr 18 06:04:55 <umdk1d4> michaelnovakjr: you a student?
Apr 18 06:05:06 <michaelnovakjr> not any more
Apr 18 06:05:09 <michaelnovakjr> i work full time
Apr 18 06:05:09 <jasta> 1788, oh jeez.
Apr 18 06:05:19 <michaelnovakjr> that is less than i expected
Apr 18 06:05:20 <jasta> i really thought it'd be just shy of 1000 :)
Apr 18 06:05:34 <jasta> well this just got interesting.
Apr 18 06:05:38 <jasta> also, i like that there are 100 judges
Apr 18 06:05:38 <umdk1d4> well how many of those wont boot on the emulator
Apr 18 06:05:39 <michaelnovakjr> its definitely interesting
Apr 18 06:05:43 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Apr 18 06:05:57 <umdk1d4> and how many are just hacks on hello world
Apr 18 06:05:57 <jasta> umdk1d4: probably none of them; they presumably have already weeded those out
Apr 18 06:05:58 <michaelnovakjr> there are probably 1588 map and chat apps though :)
Apr 18 06:06:01 <muthu> way off my 10k prediction
Apr 18 06:06:04 <umdk1d4> lol
Apr 18 06:06:38 <michaelnovakjr> i would say half of the submissions are probably dups
Apr 18 06:06:49 <umdk1d4> jasta: hmm if i were azhar, i would try maximizing that number to impress ppl
Apr 18 06:06:55 <umdk1d4> which means it is prolly pre-filtering
Apr 18 06:07:08 <michaelnovakjr> definitely
Apr 18 06:07:15 <umdk1d4> still a truthful number, but maximized
Apr 18 06:07:16 <michaelnovakjr> we had 1788 submissions and.....
Apr 18 06:07:20 <michaelnovakjr> 150 worked!
Apr 18 06:07:22 <umdk1d4> to impress the media
Apr 18 06:07:25 <umdk1d4> michaelnovakjr: LOL
Apr 18 06:08:15 <muthu> glad they came up with the numbers
Apr 18 06:08:19 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Apr 18 06:08:24 <muthu> transperency is a good thing
Apr 18 06:08:26 <michaelnovakjr> i thought for sure they weren't
Apr 18 06:08:44 <michaelnovakjr> i wonder if the bigger media outlets will start talking.... combing the android sites
Apr 18 06:09:07 <umdk1d4> there was a forbes article a few days ago
Apr 18 06:09:23 <michaelnovakjr> anything good umdk1d4
Apr 18 06:09:34 <umdk1d4> they interviewed androidgusy.com
Apr 18 06:09:36 <umdk1d4> *guys
Apr 18 06:10:01 <umdk1d4> http://www.forbes.com/technology/2008/04/14/android-developers-challenge-tech-wire-cx_ew_0415android.html
Apr 18 06:11:24 <umdk1d4> " Results 1 - 10 of about 18 for android developer-challenge"  -- from google news
Apr 18 06:12:11 <umdk1d4> *searched over last week
Apr 18 06:14:17 <jasta> seriously, what the hell
Apr 18 06:14:35 <jasta> why doesn't including kxml2 2.3.0 in my build path for Eclipse work when i deploy this thing?
Apr 18 06:14:43 <jasta> it keeps trying to use kxml2 2.2.2 as installed in android.
Apr 18 06:15:07 <michaelnovakjr> weird
Apr 18 06:15:24 <michaelnovakjr> did you try moving the precedence in the list
Apr 18 06:15:28 <jasta> has anyone had success replacing something provided in android.jar with a new version?
Apr 18 06:15:50 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: it already is above android library
Apr 18 06:16:08 <umdk1d4> btw does anyone have the ssh client working?  http://code.google.com/p/connectbot/
Apr 18 06:16:12 <jasta> and actually, it builds right.  i am using a method that android.jar does not provide
Apr 18 06:16:17 <jasta> from the new version
Apr 18 06:16:26 <jasta> but when i deploy it, i get NoSuchMethodError
Apr 18 06:16:28 <umdk1d4> im having trouble with the simplist of things--getting the create a new host intent to work
Apr 18 06:18:01 <michaelnovakjr> does the emulator have the .class files on the device?
Apr 18 06:18:12 <michaelnovakjr> for the runtime
Apr 18 06:23:53 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: they are part of my apk because i have included the kxml2 jar
Apr 18 06:23:58 <jasta> but it seems not to care
Apr 18 06:24:04 <jasta> i suspect this is a dalvik deficiency somehow
Apr 18 06:24:56 <michaelnovakjr> that would make sense...... does the log show anything when loading your apk?
Apr 18 06:29:29 <jasta> lets see, hang on
Apr 18 06:30:15 <jasta> D/dalvikvm(  758): Exception Ljava/lang/ClassNotFoundException; from PathClassLoader.java:205 not caught locally
Apr 18 06:30:19 <jasta> but that happens all the time anyway
Apr 18 06:30:24 <michaelnovakjr> yea i get that too
Apr 18 06:32:15 <jasta> so i don't really know what i can do here.
Apr 18 06:34:11 <michaelnovakjr> the one android includes and the one you have.... are they the same package name?
Apr 18 06:34:25 <jasta> yes
Apr 18 06:34:50 <michaelnovakjr> makes sense... that sucks....
Apr 18 06:34:56 <jasta> yeah, what can i do?
Apr 18 06:34:57 <michaelnovakjr> do you know where you import them in eclipse?
Apr 18 06:35:03 <jasta> kxml2 2.2.2 doesn't implement the functionality i need
Apr 18 06:35:24 <jasta> i used build path -> add external archive
Apr 18 06:35:32 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Apr 18 06:35:58 <jasta> this is lame
Apr 18 06:36:24 <michaelnovakjr> in the properties > java build path > order and export do you have your library at the top?
Apr 18 06:37:16 <jasta> kxml2 2.3.0?  not at the top, but it's above Android Library
Apr 18 06:37:34 <michaelnovakjr> the src is at the top right?
Apr 18 06:37:39 <jasta> yeah
Apr 18 06:37:47 <jasta> and libsyncml (my library) is above that
Apr 18 06:37:48 <michaelnovakjr> underneath that is kxml2?
Apr 18 06:37:53 <michaelnovakjr> ah
Apr 18 06:38:06 <michaelnovakjr> it should work if it is above android
Apr 18 06:38:14 <jasta> right, but it doesn't.
Apr 18 06:40:01 <muthu> BIG thanks for the droids in revealing the numbers :)
Apr 18 06:40:31 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, what about in the source tab under native lib location....
Apr 18 06:40:53 <jasta> none?
Apr 18 06:40:57 <michaelnovakjr> ah ha
Apr 18 06:41:07 <jasta> does that matter?
Apr 18 06:41:10 <michaelnovakjr> try adding an access rule to the android jar
Apr 18 06:41:15 <michaelnovakjr> in the libraries tab
Apr 18 06:41:32 <jasta> how?
Apr 18 06:41:44 <michaelnovakjr> click the arrow next to the jar
Apr 18 06:41:51 <jasta> oh
Apr 18 06:41:52 <michaelnovakjr> and you'll see access rules
Apr 18 06:42:21 <michaelnovakjr> type in a rule for the kxml2 package
Apr 18 06:42:38 <jasta> to forbid it?
Apr 18 06:42:44 <michaelnovakjr> not sure how it will work.... but if it ignores it there maybe it'll pick yours up
Apr 18 06:43:01 <michaelnovakjr> either forbid or discourage
Apr 18 06:43:07 <michaelnovakjr> i would try forbid first though
Apr 18 06:43:26 <jasta> you gave me another thing to try
Apr 18 06:44:01 <michaelnovakjr> its worth a shot.... at most you'll see what jar is exactly getting called
Apr 18 06:44:07 <michaelnovakjr> at least *
Apr 18 06:44:21 <jjt001> does anyone know when the judges will begin judging the apps
Apr 18 06:44:33 <michaelnovakjr> soon
Apr 18 06:44:42 <jjt001> more specific?
Apr 18 06:44:52 <michaelnovakjr> there aren't any specifics
Apr 18 06:44:53 <jjt001> i wanted to make some changes to my server
Apr 18 06:45:06 <jjt001> but don't want to do so during the judging period
Apr 18 06:45:08 <michaelnovakjr> its not recommended
Apr 18 06:45:25 <michaelnovakjr> unless you are ok with panicking if it doesn't come back up
Apr 18 06:45:33 <jjt001> o no
Apr 18 06:45:39 <jjt001> these won't be major changes
Apr 18 06:45:45 <jjt001> small things
Apr 18 06:45:53 <jjt001> nothing that could bring down the server
Apr 18 06:45:57 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: i tried just a simple test to utilize the WbxmlParser methods added in 2.3.0 and they do not come up in Eclipse
Apr 18 06:46:06 <jasta> so at least this is an eclipse issue at the moment
Apr 18 06:46:09 <jasta> not android
Apr 18 06:46:28 <michaelnovakjr> they show an eclipse error in the editor?
Apr 18 06:46:39 <jasta> well, no, it just says that's not a method :)
Apr 18 06:46:49 <jasta> even though in kxml2 2.3.0 it is
Apr 18 06:47:12 <jasta> actually you know what though...
Apr 18 06:47:38 <jasta> parseWapExtension is public, i could just extend WbxmlParser in 2.2.2 and get the functionality I need by force
Apr 18 06:48:42 <jjt001> so i estimate soon will be in a few days
Apr 18 06:48:49 <jjt001> maybe after this weekend?
Apr 18 06:49:03 <jasta> youre playing with fire buddy :)
Apr 18 06:49:07 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Apr 18 06:49:17 <jjt001> that's what i like to do
Apr 18 06:49:24 <michaelnovakjr> hot hot fire
Apr 18 06:49:30 <jasta> then knock yourself out
Apr 18 06:49:47 <jasta> but if you'r elooking for us to call it a good idea, you won't find it
Apr 18 06:49:54 <jjt001> hmmm
Apr 18 06:50:01 <michaelnovakjr> not at all
Apr 18 06:50:10 <michaelnovakjr> do you run your own servers?
Apr 18 06:50:13 <jjt001> yep
Apr 18 06:50:19 <michaelnovakjr> even more reason not to
Apr 18 06:50:32 <michaelnovakjr> there's no oh shit button when you are the oh shit dude
Apr 18 06:50:51 <jjt001> the problem is that comcast freaking drops my connection all the time
Apr 18 06:51:07 <jasta> you should not have hosted your server on your cable modem :)
Apr 18 06:51:07 <michaelnovakjr> how can you stop that?
Apr 18 06:51:13 <michaelnovakjr> exactly
Apr 18 06:51:22 <michaelnovakjr> dynamic ip alone is not a good idea
Apr 18 06:51:24 <jasta> that was just reckless of you.
Apr 18 06:51:36 <jjt001> i don't have dynamic ips
Apr 18 06:51:38 <michaelnovakjr> not to mention speed and connection loss
Apr 18 06:51:38 <jjt001> static
Apr 18 06:52:06 <jjt001> i hate comcast
Apr 18 06:52:10 <muthu> jjt001: is it in your home?
Apr 18 06:52:16 <jjt001> i should have switched to peoplepc
Apr 18 06:52:20 <jjt001> muthu: yeah
Apr 18 06:52:30 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: i'm just gonna do the extra leg work to get kxml2 2.2.2 to work
Apr 18 06:52:31 <michaelnovakjr> and you have static ip?
Apr 18 06:52:34 <jasta> i didn't realize this method was public at first
Apr 18 06:52:40 <jjt001> yep static
Apr 18 06:52:48 <michaelnovakjr> going to subclass and add the functionality?
Apr 18 06:53:22 <muthu> jjt001: make sure its running all the time
Apr 18 06:53:39 <michaelnovakjr> are they actual servers ..... or is it an old pc?
Apr 18 06:53:40 <jjt001> muthu: i'm doing that, but comcast frequently drops my connection
Apr 18 06:53:44 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: Yeah, it won't be hard, really
Apr 18 06:53:54 <jjt001> the latter
Apr 18 06:54:01 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, good luck.... sounds like the less stressful way
Apr 18 06:54:02 <muthu> jjt001: what's your app?
Apr 18 06:54:15 <jjt001> muthu: business search and rate
Apr 18 06:54:28 <michaelnovakjr> running your app off an old pc can't be helpful
Apr 18 06:54:29 <jjt001> muthu: coordinated with local.yahoo.com and maps.google.com
Apr 18 06:54:46 <muthu> you have apk?
Apr 18 06:54:50 <jjt001> yep
Apr 18 06:54:57 <jjt001> you want it?
Apr 18 06:54:57 <muthu> where?
Apr 18 06:55:04 <muthu> yeah.. let me check it out
Apr 18 06:55:06 <jjt001> no, it's not public
Apr 18 06:55:13 <jjt001> i can email it to
Apr 18 06:55:14 <jjt001> you
Apr 18 06:55:22 <muthu> see whether your cable mode holds up
Apr 18 06:55:33 <muthu> muthu@intellibitz.com
Apr 18 06:55:38 <jjt001> muthu: yeah that'd be great
Apr 18 06:55:42 <michaelnovakjr> the pc might buckle
Apr 18 06:55:46 <jjt001> i've had a few friends test it
Apr 18 06:55:48 <michaelnovakjr> what OS is it running?
Apr 18 06:55:53 <jjt001> Ubuntu
Apr 18 06:56:04 <jjt001> muthu: you based in india
Apr 18 06:56:07 <michaelnovakjr> eh
Apr 18 06:56:09 <muthu> yes, chennai
Apr 18 06:56:17 <jjt001> muthu: i'm from kerela
Apr 18 06:56:23 <muthu> cool
Apr 18 06:56:38 <muthu> http://linkedin.com/in/tellibitz
Apr 18 06:56:52 <jjt001> you have your own company
Apr 18 06:56:55 <jjt001> cool
Apr 18 06:56:59 <muthu> yes
Apr 18 06:57:04 <michaelnovakjr> ubuntu on a server..?
Apr 18 06:57:11 <jjt001> yeah
Apr 18 06:57:12 <michaelnovakjr> CentOS all te way
Apr 18 06:57:19 <jjt001> i'm kind of a noob
Apr 18 06:57:36 <jjt001> by round 2, though, my app should be in competitive shape
Apr 18 06:57:43 <jjt001> hopefully
Apr 18 06:57:48 <muthu> send me apk, let me test
Apr 18 06:57:55 <jjt001> muthu: one sec
Apr 18 06:58:37 <muthu> recently in kerela.. great place
Apr 18 06:58:49 <muthu> folks come to kerela.. gods own country
Apr 18 06:58:51 <Kraln> ubuntu server distro isn't bad
Apr 18 06:58:55 <Kraln> but real people use real server distros
Apr 18 06:59:07 <jjt001> muthu: yep
Apr 18 06:59:17 <michaelnovakjr> i am running solaris on my servers
Apr 18 06:59:21 <jjt001> muthu: i'm thinking of coming to chennai
Apr 18 06:59:37 <jjt001> Kraln: yeah, i'm getting a new machine
Apr 18 06:59:53 <muthu> great.. give me a call
Apr 18 06:59:53 <jjt001> muthu: ok sent
Apr 18 07:00:02 <muthu> ok.. will check out
Apr 18 07:00:15 <muthu> jjt001: don't switch off your pc at night ;)
Apr 18 07:00:32 <jjt001> i have on all the time
Apr 18 07:03:29 <jjt001> michaelnovakjr: you in america?
Apr 18 07:03:53 <michaelnovakjr> yep
Apr 18 07:05:11 <muthu> jjt001: rate business works?
Apr 18 07:05:24 <jjt001> muthu: yeah, it should
Apr 18 07:05:28 <jjt001> it's not?
Apr 18 07:05:33 <muthu> ok.. it came back
Apr 18 07:05:39 <jjt001> great
Apr 18 07:06:57 <muthu> cool, nice app
Apr 18 07:07:06 <jjt001> thanks
Apr 18 07:07:16 <jjt001> i've got to go
Apr 18 07:07:21 <muthu> bye
Apr 18 07:07:25 <jjt001> send me an email if you find any problem
Apr 18 07:07:30 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 07:07:32 <jjt001> or if you want to send me your apk
Apr 18 07:07:34 <jjt001> thanks again
Apr 18 07:08:05 <Kraln> jjt001: I sell vps hosting, if you want
Apr 18 07:08:09 * Kraln snaps fingers
Apr 18 07:08:47 <muthu> his app rates business on a scale of 1 to 5
Apr 18 07:09:26 <muthu> and you can search for business with top ratings in your locality
Apr 18 07:25:35 <romainguy> so you guys finally got your answers
Apr 18 07:25:42 <muthu> oh yeah
Apr 18 07:25:58 <muthu> 1788.. not bad
Apr 18 07:26:01 <Kraln> romainguy: we got *some* answers =)
Apr 18 07:26:08 <romainguy> don't be too greedy :)
Apr 18 07:26:09 <Kraln> I still don't know if I'm going to get a 'report card' or not
Apr 18 07:26:22 <Kraln> I'm anonymous. I can be as greedy as I want =p
Apr 18 07:26:42 <muthu> Kraln: we can track you from your androidchat ;)
Apr 18 07:26:53 <Kraln> actually google has all my info
Apr 18 07:27:06 <Kraln> I would be VERY creeped out if romainguy grabbed my cellphone and called me and told me to shut up
Apr 18 07:27:15 <muthu> lol
Apr 18 07:27:34 * romainguy hangs up
Apr 18 07:27:42 <Kraln> o.o
Apr 18 07:27:48 <romainguy> :p
Apr 18 07:28:33 <muthu> romainguy_: need to write an Android beginner guide, can i wait until next sdk?
Apr 18 07:28:55 <romainguy> I don't understand your question
Apr 18 07:29:20 <muthu> are there major api changes?
Apr 18 07:29:36 <romainguy> it will be kinda like the change from m3 to m5
Apr 18 07:29:44 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 07:29:54 <muthu> hope the core is stabilized
Apr 18 07:30:15 <romainguy> what do you call the core?
Apr 18 07:30:23 <muthu> 2. when the next sdk? ;)
Apr 18 07:30:38 <romainguy> when we release it
Apr 18 07:30:39 <romainguy> :)
Apr 18 07:30:46 <muthu> the core - intent, content, service
Apr 18 07:30:58 <muthu> activity
Apr 18 07:31:33 <muthu> i understand new feature will be added
Apr 18 07:32:34 <muthu> guess, i'll start writing the guys
Apr 18 07:32:40 <muthu> * guide
Apr 18 07:32:52 <muthu> its my laziness putting it off though
Apr 18 07:33:01 <romainguy> we add new features, we change APIs...
Apr 18 07:33:20 <muthu> true, its early anyways
Apr 18 07:35:01 <muthu> romainguy_: are you speaking in Google I/O?
Apr 18 07:36:50 <romainguy___> Unfortunately I will be on vacation in France at that time
Apr 18 07:37:05 <muthu> cool
Apr 18 07:37:55 <romainguy___> wish I was at Google I/O
Apr 18 07:38:05 <romainguy___> but I'm speaking at JavaOne early May :)
Apr 18 07:38:06 <muthu> yeah, that should be interesting
Apr 18 07:38:23 <muthu> right, about your filthy stuff ;)
Apr 18 07:38:28 <romainguy___> exactly :)
Apr 18 08:52:22 <varjag> re
Apr 18 09:30:35 <varjag> so nearly 1800 entries mm :)
Apr 18 09:30:59 <muthu> 1788 to be exact
Apr 18 09:31:07 <varjag> yea
Apr 18 09:54:14 <mihoshi> Do they count reposts as separate entries?
Apr 18 09:55:14 <muthu> don't think so
Apr 18 09:59:56 <davidw> wow
Apr 18 09:59:58 <davidw> that's a lot
Apr 18 10:00:02 <davidw> I was thinking about 1000
Apr 18 10:01:09 <davidw> so they got a lot for their money
Apr 18 10:05:54 <muthu> mornin david
Apr 18 10:06:15 <muthu> i was thinking 5000 the least
Apr 18 10:09:07 <Lede> i was hoping around 30
Apr 18 10:09:15 <muthu> hehe
Apr 18 10:09:33 <Lede> :o)
Apr 18 10:09:42 <muthu> Lede: the world is a little bigger than your imagination ;)
Apr 18 10:12:56 <davidw> hopefully lots of them are like the ice cream borat guy;-)
Apr 18 10:13:05 <muthu> haha
Apr 18 10:13:33 <muthu> how many got filtered, is the question
Apr 18 10:16:21 <muthu> anyone hosted at amazon?
Apr 18 10:26:59 <davidw> muthu, I've used ec2 in the past
Apr 18 10:27:04 <davidw> no disk was a dealbreaker
Apr 18 10:27:18 <muthu> need to host my php-mysql thing
Apr 18 10:27:24 <muthu> is ec2 a good option
Apr 18 10:27:46 <muthu> mobeegal runs on lamp
Apr 18 10:28:55 <davidw> you might lose all your data unless you think about it from the very start
Apr 18 10:29:52 <muthu> really, why?
Apr 18 10:35:09 <davidw> muthu, because the disk isn't permanent
Apr 18 10:35:13 <davidw> they're working on that
Apr 18 10:35:20 <muthu> they why many use that
Apr 18 10:35:42 <muthu> how come everyone uses ec2?
Apr 18 10:38:00 <davidw> good question - maybe they have adopted strategies to mitigate the risk, such as very frequent backups
Apr 18 10:38:06 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 10:38:30 <muthu> checking it out
Apr 18 10:38:47 <davidw> they're supposed to be fixing the disk thing though
Apr 18 10:38:54 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 10:39:04 <davidw> but i think a conventional hosting provider is still better at the moment unless you need the scaling ability
Apr 18 10:39:23 <muthu> i'm torn there.. couldn't make a decision
Apr 18 10:39:41 <muthu> definitely scaling not required for now.. but ec2 pay for what you use is attractive
Apr 18 10:40:11 <dueynz> does ec2 let you run php?
Apr 18 10:40:26 <muthu> finding out.. no answer yet
Apr 18 10:40:33 <dueynz> dont think so...
Apr 18 10:40:39 <muthu> what they have?
Apr 18 10:41:14 <dueynz> oh maybe it does
Apr 18 10:41:26 <dueynz> is it just a vps sort of thing?
Apr 18 10:43:44 <muthu> they say AMI
Apr 18 10:44:07 <muthu> you can bundle up the things you need, and install
Apr 18 10:44:13 <dueynz> ah
Apr 18 10:45:35 <davidw> muthu, if you're just going to leave the server on all the time, it's more expensive than a normal hosting situation
Apr 18 10:45:48 <muthu> oh!
Apr 18 10:46:06 <muthu> guess then dreamhost may be the solution
Apr 18 10:47:48 <davidw> I use layered tech myself
Apr 18 10:47:57 <muthu> are they good?
Apr 18 10:48:10 <muthu> is it shared hosting?
Apr 18 10:48:57 <muthu> dueynz:  http://docs.amazonwebservices.com/AWSEC2/2008-02-01/GettingStartedGuide/
Apr 18 10:49:18 <dueynz> i use layered tech as well
Apr 18 10:49:23 <muthu> woah
Apr 18 10:49:25 <dueynz> its not shared
Apr 18 10:49:33 <muthu> what's the plan?
Apr 18 10:49:35 <dueynz> costs me $100/m
Apr 18 10:49:42 <muthu> package?
Apr 18 10:49:47 <dueynz> dedicated server
Apr 18 10:49:52 <dueynz> www.layeredtech.com
Apr 18 10:49:56 <muthu> great
Apr 18 10:50:08 <dueynz> they have cheaper ones
Apr 18 10:50:10 <dueynz> like $60
Apr 18 10:50:14 <dueynz> get your own server
Apr 18 10:50:25 <muthu> right
Apr 18 10:50:55 <davidw> dueynz, right now they don't
Apr 18 10:51:03 <davidw> I am wondering if that's permanent or what
Apr 18 10:51:10 <davidw> they used to have a lot of cheaper options
Apr 18 10:51:53 <ligi> hi
Apr 18 10:51:58 <dueynz> hmm true
Apr 18 10:52:01 <dueynz> they seem to be gone
Apr 18 10:52:11 <davidw> that worries me... those were really good prices
Apr 18 10:52:15 <muthu> private racks costs $250 minimum
Apr 18 10:52:23 <dueynz> the company is run by retards
Apr 18 10:52:29 <dueynz> my server died
Apr 18 10:52:30 <muthu> haha
Apr 18 10:52:32 <dueynz> took a week to fix
Apr 18 10:52:37 <muthu> what?
Apr 18 10:52:42 <dueynz> they exploded in size
Apr 18 10:52:50 <dueynz> and coundnt find good staff
Apr 18 10:52:50 <muthu> ok.. need to look at other options
Apr 18 10:52:54 <dueynz> at least thats what i got told
Apr 18 10:53:03 <muthu> heard dreamhost is good
Apr 18 10:53:09 <dueynz> lol
Apr 18 10:53:11 <dueynz> no
Apr 18 10:53:24 <dueynz> how much do you want to speed
Apr 18 10:53:35 <muthu> mobile search engine runs on lamp
Apr 18 10:53:42 <muthu> initially doesn't need too much of anything
Apr 18 10:53:48 <muthu> since the usage will be low
Apr 18 10:53:50 <dueynz> dreamhost is cheap
Apr 18 10:53:55 <dueynz> but you get waht you pay for
Apr 18 10:54:02 <muthu> hmm right
Apr 18 10:54:22 <davidw> dueynz, LT? huh...I've always had good luck
Apr 18 10:54:22 <muthu> probably i'll start with something cheap
Apr 18 10:54:27 <davidw> I think hosting is a market for lemons though
Apr 18 10:54:31 <dueynz> davidw, thos was pver a year ago
Apr 18 10:54:38 <dueynz> they should of hopefully imrpoved
Apr 18 10:54:56 <dueynz> my server has an uptime of... 390 days
Apr 18 10:54:57 <dueynz> so
Apr 18 10:54:59 <davidw> you only notice the difference in quality when something goes rong
Apr 18 10:55:00 <davidw> wrong
Apr 18 10:55:02 <dueynz> they are decent
Apr 18 10:55:05 <dueynz> yep
Apr 18 10:55:13 <dueynz> but 1 week to fix it
Apr 18 10:55:17 <dueynz> not exactly great..
Apr 18 10:55:18 <davidw> that's lame
Apr 18 10:55:34 <dueynz> i cant understand things going wrong
Apr 18 10:55:35 <muthu> 1 week is terrible
Apr 18 10:55:39 <davidw> I had a company like that a while ago... server went down on friday and they said "well, we'll take a look on monday"
Apr 18 10:55:40 <dueynz> but it was a dead harddrive
Apr 18 10:55:45 <dueynz> they could of just replaced it
Apr 18 10:55:52 <muthu> users will run away
Apr 18 10:56:07 <davidw> where to though
Apr 18 10:56:09 <davidw> they all suck
Apr 18 10:56:11 <muthu> imagine twitter off for a week!
Apr 18 10:56:19 <davidw> or they cost a shitload
Apr 18 10:56:27 <muthu> correct
Apr 18 10:56:36 <dueynz> LT are pretty good for the price
Apr 18 10:57:05 <muthu> Lt offers a $49 option
Apr 18 10:57:12 <dueynz> oh?
Apr 18 10:57:21 <dueynz> i think its a vps
Apr 18 10:57:40 <dueynz> i was going to say go with a vps
Apr 18 10:57:53 <muthu> solaris virtual - 20% cpu
Apr 18 10:58:04 <davidw> VPS's suck though
Apr 18 10:58:29 <dueynz> davidw, no less suck that shared hosting
Apr 18 10:58:37 <dueynz> and they are more secure and you get gurenteed resources
Apr 18 10:59:05 <muthu> right.. virtual should be ok
Apr 18 10:59:08 <muthu> if the cost is right
Apr 18 10:59:10 <dueynz> http://rimuhosting.com
Apr 18 10:59:43 <dueynz> those guys are good
Apr 18 11:00:02 <muthu> how you know?
Apr 18 11:00:29 <dueynz> used them before
Apr 18 11:00:30 <muthu> wow.. $19.95/month
Apr 18 11:00:35 <dueynz> dont get that option
Apr 18 11:00:46 <muthu> hehe, which one is good?
Apr 18 11:01:07 <dueynz> try the $29 and you can upgrade later if you need more
Apr 18 11:01:13 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 11:01:29 <muthu> why you not using rimu now?
Apr 18 11:01:46 <dueynz> old workplace
Apr 18 11:01:50 <dueynz> used them
Apr 18 11:01:54 <muthu> okkkk
Apr 18 11:01:58 <muthu> then they must be good
Apr 18 11:02:14 <muthu> i'm going with rimu then
Apr 18 11:02:54 <dueynz> im not sure what you are doing -- you may need more ram or something
Apr 18 11:03:07 <davidw> NZ seems like it might actually have some issues in terms of latency
Apr 18 11:03:11 <muthu> i'm planning to host my search engine
Apr 18 11:03:18 <muthu> which uses lamp
Apr 18 11:03:27 <dueynz> davidw, they are not hosted in nz
Apr 18 11:03:32 <davidw> ah no
Apr 18 11:03:34 <davidw> hrm
Apr 18 11:03:38 <dueynz> you can select from different dcs
Apr 18 11:03:40 <muthu> 100,000 users will be a big deal
Apr 18 11:03:53 <muthu> its on android
Apr 18 11:04:06 <muthu> so not expecting much users atleast initially
Apr 18 11:04:27 <dueynz> muthu, do you need ssh etc?
Apr 18 11:04:37 <muthu> no
Apr 18 11:04:50 <muthu> planning to use json/http, xmpp
Apr 18 11:04:52 <varjag> muthu, "Dont worry, the winners will be announced when the dollar trades high"
Apr 18 11:04:55 <dueynz> maybe just go with a shared hosting service
Apr 18 11:04:56 <davidw> yeesh...couldn't handle a system without root access
Apr 18 11:05:01 <varjag> you mean not next few years :)
Apr 18 11:05:06 <muthu> lol
Apr 18 11:05:13 <muthu> may be
Apr 18 11:05:17 <dueynz> ya i want prizes in gold!
Apr 18 11:05:32 <muthu> i just need the prize, give me something ;)
Apr 18 11:05:36 <varjag> android gold prize heh
Apr 18 11:05:37 <ligi> i want the prizes in mobiles ^^
Apr 18 11:05:39 <varjag> is it olympics or what
Apr 18 11:05:45 <dueynz> lol
Apr 18 11:05:56 <dueynz> winners will get the prize
Apr 18 11:06:01 <dueynz> and by the time the cheque arrives
Apr 18 11:06:06 <dueynz> its worth significantly less
Apr 18 11:06:15 <varjag> well that's life
Apr 18 11:06:23 <muthu> will attend Google I/O if i win
Apr 18 11:06:38 <varjag> but you can buy a ticket, fly to the land of cheap, and buy all you need there :)
Apr 18 11:06:45 <davidw> there you go
Apr 18 11:07:02 <dueynz> going to a techtalk nextweek
Apr 18 11:07:03 <davidw> you definitely want to be buying hosting in the US right now
Apr 18 11:07:12 <varjag> hehe
Apr 18 11:07:28 <muthu> yup before the $$ rises
Apr 18 11:08:04 <muthu> planning to use jabber on the server
Apr 18 11:08:07 <muthu> for the chat
Apr 18 11:09:09 <muthu> they'll let you install whatever you need, for vps right?
Apr 18 11:09:36 <dueynz> in a vps yeah
Apr 18 11:09:51 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 11:10:11 <muthu> very low usage, is what i'm looking at - to start with
Apr 18 11:11:52 <dueynz> might be able to get the cheaper one then
Apr 18 11:11:53 <dueynz> $19
Apr 18 11:11:59 <dueynz> as i said you can upgrade whenever
Apr 18 11:12:10 <muthu> but need to install lamp, jabber etc.,
Apr 18 11:13:32 <muthu> ok, i can install anything
Apr 18 11:13:37 <muthu> thats what the plans say
Apr 18 11:14:59 <dueynz> muthu, you get your own linux install
Apr 18 11:15:03 <dueynz> its like a normal server
Apr 18 11:15:09 <dueynz> its just less powerful
Apr 18 11:15:46 <muthu> correct
Apr 18 11:15:47 <muthu> thanks
Apr 18 11:16:07 <muthu> rimuhosting - very very attractive - start with $19.95
Apr 18 11:16:46 <muthu> scaling can be done, after finding out the real usage
Apr 18 11:17:21 <dueynz> yep
Apr 18 11:41:17 <mihoshi> What is a primary method for sending files directly to other phone? IChatSession.sendDataMessage? Or there are better ways?
Apr 18 11:43:44 <muthu> chatting with other phone is done with xmpp
Apr 18 11:43:52 <muthu> so probably you got the right method
Apr 18 11:49:53 <mihoshi> Let's say, I have an apk file, that I received from somewhere. It's supposed to be just content provider for some other apk. Is it possible to safely install it on Android and make sure it doesn't do anything malicious?
Apr 18 11:50:43 <dueynz> no?
Apr 18 11:50:57 <mihoshi> If it helps, it is a game logic "plug-in" apk, that works as a content provider for a game gui apk
Apr 18 11:51:52 <mihoshi> I thought that Android has thought out protection from malicios apks...
Apr 18 12:31:09 <Kraln> muthu: as I said before, I sell vps and it starts at $10/mo
Apr 18 12:31:19 <muthu> really?
Apr 18 12:31:22 <Kraln> yes
Apr 18 12:31:23 <muthu> website?
Apr 18 12:31:32 <Kraln> is terrible, but www.digitaldomainmd.com
Apr 18 12:31:39 <muthu> great.. checking out
Apr 18 12:32:19 <muthu> wow, 9.95$
Apr 18 12:33:41 <muthu> no credit cards?
Apr 18 12:33:49 <Kraln> credit cards through paypal or google checkout
Apr 18 12:33:55 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 12:34:03 <Kraln> and techincally, I can accept them over the phone, but that's creepy.
Apr 18 12:34:15 <muthu> right
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Apr 18 12:37:07 2008
Apr 18 12:37:41 <muthu> wow, $2/mo ;)
Apr 18 12:37:58 <Kraln> and, as I said, the site kind of sucks. my email is jeff@digitaldomainmd.com, you let me know what you need, and we can work something out
Apr 18 12:38:19 <muthu> sure
Apr 18 12:38:33 <muthu> noting down
Apr 18 12:46:06 <Kraln> muthu: essentially I can scale up to quad core, any bandwidth you need, etc etc
Apr 18 12:46:14 <Kraln> its $12/mbit/sec
Apr 18 12:46:29 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 12:46:42 <Kraln> (per mo)
Apr 18 12:46:43 <poffy_> Pretty snazzy
Apr 18 12:47:35 <muthu> Kraln: you don't have dedicated server?
Apr 18 12:48:06 <Kraln> That's something I prefer to negotiate via email.
Apr 18 12:48:11 <Kraln> I can do dedicated and colo, yes
Apr 18 12:48:19 <muthu> oh great
Apr 18 12:49:08 * davidw applied to be a LT reseller
Apr 18 12:49:17 <davidw> basically you want to go as far up the food chain as you can:-)
Apr 18 12:49:22 <Kraln> that's the thing, I don't resell =)
Apr 18 12:49:25 <davidw> no?
Apr 18 12:49:33 * Kraln has a thing with the guys who run the datacenter
Apr 18 12:49:45 <Kraln> its all my hardware, my rack, my everything
Apr 18 12:49:49 <Kraln> built by me
Apr 18 12:49:55 <muthu> wonderful
Apr 18 12:50:06 <davidw> aha, cool
Apr 18 12:50:44 <muthu> Kraln: if a million users hit my site, will you be able to scale
Apr 18 12:51:18 <Kraln> yes, the vps machines have gigabit uplinks to the bgp pool
Apr 18 12:51:56 <muthu> ok.. not that a million users are lined up.. just checking
Apr 18 12:51:59 <Kraln> and there's enough processing power behind the machines to saturate gigabit eth (I did it while installing updates accidentally, hehehe)
Apr 18 12:52:12 <muthu> great
Apr 18 12:52:29 <Kraln> but now, I have to run. I will be back in a few hours, irl is calling
Apr 18 12:52:40 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 13:28:25 <lordms12> hi
Apr 18 13:28:33 <muthu> hello
Apr 18 13:46:21 <ligi> 1788 submissions - not bad
Apr 18 13:46:59 <ligi> >> 50/1788.0
Apr 18 13:46:59 <ligi> => 0.0279642058165548
Apr 18 13:47:03 <ligi> ;-)
Apr 18 13:47:34 <muthu> 0.03% winning chance
Apr 18 13:47:58 <muthu> is it?
Apr 18 13:48:00 <ligi> no
Apr 18 13:48:02 <ligi> ^^
Apr 18 13:48:14 <muthu> what does it say?
Apr 18 13:48:29 <ligi> nothing at al
Apr 18 13:48:30 <ligi> l
Apr 18 13:48:35 <muthu> hehe
Apr 18 13:48:59 <muthu> 1788/50 = 35 something
Apr 18 13:49:15 <muthu> 1 in 35
Apr 18 13:49:29 <ligi> w35 iss not that bad
Apr 18 13:49:35 <muthu> right
Apr 18 13:49:55 <ligi> muthu: seen my little video?
Apr 18 13:50:14 <muthu> mikrokopter
Apr 18 13:50:33 <ligi> with the android ui in bg
Apr 18 13:50:51 <muthu> link?
Apr 18 13:50:59 <ligi> muthu: http://www.vimeo.com/905980
Apr 18 13:51:05 <muthu> checking..
Apr 18 13:54:39 <ligi> >> (50*25000)/1788.0
Apr 18 13:54:39 <ligi> => 699.10514541387
Apr 18 13:54:53 <ligi> ---> one goood phone for every entry ;-=
Apr 18 13:55:06 <muthu> oh yes
Apr 18 13:56:26 <muthu> vimeo is slow
Apr 18 13:56:45 <ligi> can't confirm this
Apr 18 13:56:49 <ligi> pretty fast here
Apr 18 13:57:11 <muthu> it has played 12 seconds so far..
Apr 18 13:57:43 <ligi> that not good -so you cant see the fading ;-)
Apr 18 13:57:50 <ligi> muthu: faster: http://ligi-tec.blogspot.com/
Apr 18 13:57:51 <ligi> ?
Apr 18 13:57:54 <ligi> second post
Apr 18 13:58:04 <ligi> its smaller and another service
Apr 18 13:58:14 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 13:59:57 <muthu> that's cool ligi
Apr 18 14:00:11 <ligi> muthu: thanx
Apr 18 14:00:27 <muthu> you control kopter with android
Apr 18 14:00:34 <ligi> right
Apr 18 14:00:45 <muthu> so this replace the remote?
Apr 18 14:00:58 <ligi> in later versions yes
Apr 18 14:01:07 <ligi> need a real device for that
Apr 18 14:01:12 <ligi> but its prooven to work
Apr 18 14:01:24 <muthu> what's the real usecase?
Apr 18 14:02:11 <ligi> supporting this: http://www.mikrokopter.de/ucwiki/en/SeriousUseCases
Apr 18 14:02:46 <muthu> no what i'm askin is, what's the problem with remote?
Apr 18 14:03:13 <ligi> 1. its not cool enough ;-)
Apr 18 14:03:18 <ligi> 2. its to big
Apr 18 14:03:25 <ligi> 3. old 35Mhz
Apr 18 14:03:25 <muthu> right
Apr 18 14:03:34 <muthu> mikrokopter seems to be the innovation
Apr 18 14:03:37 <ligi> 4. no displaying of camera in background
Apr 18 14:04:11 <ligi> i think the combination is a inovation too
Apr 18 14:04:21 <ligi> many things possible that way
Apr 18 14:04:22 <muthu> you build mikrokopter?
Apr 18 14:04:43 <ligi> i build one - but not constructed it
Apr 18 14:04:53 <ligi> its an Community Project
Apr 18 14:04:59 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 14:05:04 <ligi> build as soldered
Apr 18 14:05:16 <muthu> got it
Apr 18 14:05:28 <muthu> so you are saying, use your gphone to fly your mikrokopter
Apr 18 14:05:40 <ligi> and do service
Apr 18 14:05:50 <ligi> as i do it atm with my J2me phone
Apr 18 14:07:02 <muthu> there are 2 things here
Apr 18 14:07:21 <muthu> controlling a device using android is also cool
Apr 18 14:09:05 <ligi> i like to test multiple ways to control this device - this is also my Project: http://www.mikrokopter.de/ucwiki/en/Riddim
Apr 18 14:09:20 <muthu> checking..
Apr 18 14:09:24 <ligi> controlling with PC-flight sticks
Apr 18 14:10:03 <muthu> is that you in the photo?
Apr 18 14:10:10 <ligi> yes
Apr 18 14:10:25 <muthu> why blacked out?
Apr 18 14:11:49 <ligi>  rings under the eyes
Apr 18 14:12:00 <ligi> 10cm
Apr 18 14:12:25 <muthu> hard work huh ;)
Apr 18 14:13:27 <muthu> cool job
Apr 18 14:13:31 <muthu> like it ligi
Apr 18 14:13:47 <ligi> thanx
Apr 18 14:14:01 <muthu> leaving now.. catch you later
Apr 18 14:14:09 <ligi> muthu: cya
Apr 18 15:33:35 <jasta> yawn
Apr 18 15:33:59 <jasta> hehe, so less than 3% of us will win the qualifying round
Apr 18 15:35:42 <ligi> :-(
Apr 18 15:36:06 <living_sword> ?
Apr 18 15:36:26 <jasta> i'm not too worried.  i'm sure there's 97% crap ;)
Apr 18 15:36:44 <ligi> jasta: 96,99
Apr 18 15:37:09 <jasta> actually 97 and some change.
Apr 18 15:38:11 <living_sword> do u think we should have been told the config of the sd card on the judges' emulator ?
Apr 18 15:38:19 <jasta> well anyway, 1738 people will be very disappointed :)
Apr 18 15:38:39 <jasta> living_sword: In my documentation I specified that the judges should provision a 1GB or more SD card.
Apr 18 15:39:38 <living_sword> i didnt know if the sd card would have media files. so i included some. now it seems i stand disqualified.
Apr 18 15:40:02 <living_sword> wtf
Apr 18 15:40:09 <jasta> you included some copyright protected media!?
Apr 18 15:40:36 <ligi> living_sword: how did u get noticed?
Apr 18 15:40:59 <jasta> it states in the rules that your submission can't violate US copyright :)
Apr 18 15:41:03 <living_sword> just a demo mp3
Apr 18 15:41:16 <Lede> i find it quite disturbing if you think other developers wrote "crap"
Apr 18 15:41:17 <living_sword> one tiny file
Apr 18 15:41:36 <ligi> living_sword: free or not?
Apr 18 15:41:39 <Lede> talk about high self esteem
Apr 18 15:42:29 <living_sword> its a game music. i dont know
Apr 18 15:42:41 <living_sword> small piece
Apr 18 15:42:51 <ligi> living_sword: how do you get noticed
Apr 18 15:42:52 <ligi> ?
Apr 18 15:43:09 <ligi> email?
Apr 18 15:43:09 <living_sword> get noticed ?
Apr 18 15:43:18 <ligi>  now it seems i stand
Apr 18 15:43:18 <ligi>                       disqualified.
Apr 18 15:43:31 <ligi> why do u think so
Apr 18 15:43:35 <ligi> got an email?
Apr 18 15:43:37 <living_sword> ahh... dan said it in the group
Apr 18 15:44:06 <ligi> link?
Apr 18 15:44:06 <morrildl> living_sword: the question is whether you had rights to distribute it
Apr 18 15:44:32 <living_sword> it was for private demo. not mass distribution
Apr 18 15:44:51 <living_sword> if i had known there would be mp3 files for judges, i wouldnt have cared
Apr 18 15:45:16 <ligi> sorry to hear that
Apr 18 15:45:43 <muthu> any bad news? what happened?
Apr 18 15:45:59 <ligi> living_sword: http://www.freeplaymusic.com/
Apr 18 15:46:18 <ligi> had the same problems with videos - no free mp3's
Apr 18 15:46:40 <ligi> muthu: non free mp3s in a submission seems to disqualify
Apr 18 15:46:48 <muthu> woah
Apr 18 15:47:11 <muthu> is it confirmed?
Apr 18 15:47:16 <living_sword> yes
Apr 18 15:48:15 <mihoshi> I used only gpl and original art...
Apr 18 15:48:33 <ligi> muthu: sources free?
Apr 18 15:48:40 <jasta> living_sword: this seems very obvious to me.
Apr 18 15:48:42 <ligi> mihoshi: i meant
Apr 18 15:48:55 <mihoshi> Original art was a chessboard, made from scaled 8*8 picture:)
Apr 18 15:48:57 <jasta> you cannot put Google in a position to facilitate copyright violation, even if for private demo.
Apr 18 15:49:09 <ligi> i have just some mp3 voice samples by a friend of mine in the apk
Apr 18 15:49:18 <jasta> and as i said, they specified this in the challenge rules.
Apr 18 15:49:32 <mihoshi> And that is specifically wrote in the ADC rules, btw. So, no surprise here.
Apr 18 15:49:43 <mihoshi> :)
Apr 18 15:49:57 <jasta> my application pretends as though it contains quite a large volume of copyright protected media, but it does not.  when you attempt to play any of it, you get a festival text-to-speech recording saying "You are now listening to {Song} by {Artist} from {Album}
Apr 18 15:50:01 <jasta> "
Apr 18 15:50:17 <jasta> mihoshi: a lot of folks did not read the challenge rules.  it's amazing.
Apr 18 15:50:23 <ligi> is the number 1788 with the so dropped submissions?
Apr 18 15:50:39 <jasta> why you would submit your app to something like this and not read it in full is crazy to me.  lots of people were surprised to learn the criteria for judging!
Apr 18 15:50:39 <muthu> not many people read the rules
Apr 18 15:51:03 <jasta> muthu: frankly those people deserve to lose just for being idiots ;)
Apr 18 15:51:43 <jasta> who here takes tests without reading the questions? :)
Apr 18 15:52:09 <ligi> jasta: ^^
Apr 18 15:53:14 <mihoshi> Well, actually, it is possible sometimes to guess right answer just by set of answer choice...
Apr 18 15:53:17 <muthu> yeah, but you know people would have been buys
Apr 18 15:53:27 <muthu> *budy
Apr 18 15:53:33 <muthu> **busy
Apr 18 15:53:51 <jasta> too busy participating in the challenge to read the rules?  how the hell can you be too busy for that!?
Apr 18 15:54:03 <ligi> and used to clicking away long texts
Apr 18 15:54:08 <jasta> they were, as you recall, posted back in January!
Apr 18 15:54:25 <jasta> well, i maintain, if you didn't read the rules and are disqualified as a result, shame on you.
Apr 18 15:55:02 <Lede> can you get disqualified for being a prick?
Apr 18 15:55:10 * Lede looks at jasta 
Apr 18 15:55:27 <jasta> excuse me?
Apr 18 15:55:57 <Lede> you can't blame someone for making a mistake
Apr 18 15:56:19 <mihoshi> It's "I don't like losers" situation
Apr 18 15:56:27 <jasta> making a mistake includes misunderstanding text, accidentally leaving out features, or forgetting to test something.
Apr 18 15:57:06 <jasta> IGNORING THE RULES doesn't qualify.
Apr 18 15:57:17 <mihoshi> Like, when you have a really big set to choose from, you don't hesitate to throw out some variants for any reason.
Apr 18 15:57:46 <jasta> there were folks in here that right up until the deadline were making claims that were clearly contradicted by the challenge rules themselves.  they simply didn't read it.  how can you hope to win a challenge you don't understand?
Apr 18 15:58:17 <jasta> it would be amazing if you just happened to accidentally guess precisely what you were required to do (and not do) without reading it.
Apr 18 15:59:23 <jasta> it'd be like taking a job before you read the description, then being upset when you're fired for failing to perform your duties.
Apr 18 16:01:12 * Kraln yawns
Apr 18 16:01:36 <mihoshi> Hmm, like that AllBinary guy. He is so nice! http://allbinary.axspace.com/ "If get the 100k prize then I will open most of the game development library. If get the 275k prize then I will open all of the game development library with liberal licensing."
Apr 18 16:01:40 <pawalls|away> Hmm, anyone know if ADC-II is open to new contestants?
Apr 18 16:01:58 <jasta> mihoshi: what about me, who will open all of my code regardless? :)
Apr 18 16:02:16 <pawalls|away> Verbiage on the judging process doc mentions that the top 50 ADC-I get pushed into the second round, but makes no mention of new submissions.
Apr 18 16:02:25 <ligi> pawalls|away: would be great - but i think not
Apr 18 16:02:39 <jasta> pawalls|away: do you mean ADC I round 1?
Apr 18 16:02:45 <Kraln> muthu: had some time to think? =)
Apr 18 16:03:10 <Stephmw> jasta: it's like we were saying a few weeks ago, archive.org has freely usable music
Apr 18 16:03:12 <pawalls|away> jasta, Nope. ADC II
Apr 18 16:03:34 <pawalls|away> jasta, As far as I can tell, it's ADC-I (phase1, phase 2), and then ADC-II
Apr 18 16:03:40 <muthu> Kraln: not so fast buddy
Apr 18 16:03:41 <mihoshi> I work under GPL, but I'm not sure about releasing BSD as well...
Apr 18 16:03:43 <jasta> Stephmw: which the guy who was disqualified should have used :)
Apr 18 16:03:52 <jasta> Stephmw: i avoided copyright a different way
Apr 18 16:04:01 <pawalls|away> ADC-II is 2nd half '08 according to the ADC page.
Apr 18 16:04:03 <jasta> pawalls|away: yes, but nothing specific has been published regarding ADC II
Apr 18 16:04:16 <jasta> not even the prize structure.  we know it's $5mil total, but that's it
Apr 18 16:04:33 <jasta> i would like to see qualifying entries in ADC-I implicitly qualify for ADC-II, though :)
Apr 18 16:04:38 <zhobbs`> I was surprised about the 1788 submissions!
Apr 18 16:04:40 <mihoshi> I though ADC II will be the same...
Apr 18 16:04:51 <jasta> mihoshi: i don't think it says that anywhere
Apr 18 16:05:28 <jasta> http://tassl.com/android.html -- this is a pretty neat app :)
Apr 18 16:05:28 <pawalls|away> "The 50 entries with the highest scores in Phase 2 judging will move on to Round 2 of the Challenge where they could potentially win awards of up to $275,000 USD."
Apr 18 16:05:45 <jasta> pawalls|away: that is for ADC-I round 2
Apr 18 16:05:49 <pawalls|away> I see.
Apr 18 16:06:09 <jasta> what they mean by phase 2 judging is that they didn't get disqualified for their app simply not running ;)
Apr 18 16:06:11 <Kraln> no pressure, muthu =p
Apr 18 16:06:16 <pawalls|away> Right.
Apr 18 16:07:37 <jasta> whoa, i gotta hurry up and get to work
Apr 18 16:07:45 * jasta rushes out the door
Apr 18 16:09:41 <mihoshi> zhobbs`: Well, may be, half of that 1788 are  repeated submissions. Half of remaining 900 are just not starting or runtimes fast. Half of 450 wa just a quick hacks in hope of low number of submissions. Half of remaining 225 are nice, but unfinished(like mine :/ ). Half of ~100 are just a clones. So, that leaves just about 50 fully ADC rules-compatible, debugged, non-quickie, finished, original
Apr 18 16:09:48 <mihoshi> .. submissions:)
Apr 18 16:10:15 <Kraln> 1788 are after dupes and nonworking and disqualified...
Apr 18 16:10:34 <ligi> ah k
Apr 18 16:11:16 <ligi> can a submission which failed phase1 ADC-I be modifyed and be resubmitted for ADC-II ?
Apr 18 16:11:28 <zhobbs`> I think there will be a lot of corporate submissions
Apr 18 16:12:02 <mihoshi> Well, then substrat 75% of ports from another platforms. Or not, not sure about how ports will be judged.
Apr 18 16:12:17 <Kraln> The number is de-duplicated, unique submissions, and does not include a
Apr 18 16:12:17 <Kraln> handful that were disqualified according to the rules in the Terms &
Apr 18 16:12:17 <Kraln> Conditions.
Apr 18 16:14:53 <mihoshi> Anyway, that's just about a little more than 1K$ of prize money per submissions. I think Google hasn't wasted that money:)
Apr 18 16:15:50 <ligi> i dont think that too
Apr 18 16:16:05 <ligi> great thing anyway
Apr 18 16:16:15 <Kraln> people quoting statistics assume applications have even chances
Apr 18 16:18:09 <mihoshi> Not equal. Normally distributed:)
Apr 18 16:18:21 <Kraln> that's a bad assumption, too
Apr 18 16:18:24 <Kraln> it's not random
Apr 18 16:19:33 <mihoshi> Normally distributed is not random:)
Apr 18 16:20:18 <Kraln> wrong
Apr 18 16:20:26 <Kraln> normal distribution assumes randomness with an attractor
Apr 18 16:20:27 <mihoshi> Like, height of people in some city is not random, but it is normally distributed.
Apr 18 16:20:35 <Kraln> go back and re-read the central limit theorem
Apr 18 16:20:45 <Kraln> wrong.
Apr 18 16:20:58 <Kraln> height of people in some city /is/ random, with an attractor
Apr 18 16:21:23 <Kraln> seriously, learn 2 statistics =p
Apr 18 16:21:49 <mihoshi> How is it random, if it is fixed?
Apr 18 16:22:07 <Kraln> mihoshi: I'm not going to explain the central limit theorem or normal distributions to you
Apr 18 16:22:14 <Kraln> go open any entry level statistics book.
Apr 18 16:22:47 <morrildl> Kraln dupes and "non-conforming" I'd phrase it
Apr 18 16:23:06 <morrildl> if the APK blows up on installation or there's an exception on startup, we dind't filter those
Apr 18 16:23:15 <morrildl> (there were too many, and I couldn't run them all :))
Apr 18 16:23:19 <Kraln> if the apk blows up will you give them a chance to fix?
Apr 18 16:23:26 <Kraln> might have been a http hiccup =/
Apr 18 16:24:06 <ligi> morrildl: source?
Apr 18 16:25:47 <mazzen> hi! does anyone, if it's possible to extract 'dio' files?
Apr 18 16:26:01 <ligi> morrildl: ah k you are the source
Apr 18 16:26:49 <mihoshi> Kraln: Well, I don't see any reason why submission scores won't be normally distributed... Attractor may be below zero, though:)
Apr 18 16:27:36 <Kraln> mihoshi: because scores are not driven by random, they are driven by a set of criteria
Apr 18 16:27:59 <Kraln> if anything, it'd be chi squared with 6 df...
Apr 18 16:28:29 <ligi> morrildl: whats with submissions wich dont have much functionality without a special "periphery"
Apr 18 16:29:59 <mihoshi> Kraln: Yes, but process of submission designing, and process of judgin has enough random factors to make distribution notmal. That can not be issue for any given application, but it is for full set. So, unless your app definitely suck, or definitely shines, then it's chances depend depends on number of other submissions.
Apr 18 16:31:17 <Kraln> you're assuming lots of things, like judging is independant or judging is perfectly fair
Apr 18 16:31:28 <Kraln> just because it may appear normal does not mean that it /is/ normal
Apr 18 16:32:00 <Kraln> this seriously isn't #math though =p
Apr 18 16:32:34 <mihoshi> Sorry :p
Apr 18 16:35:50 <jasta> i actually bet that applications which rely on things like the camera, geo-coding, etc will be more successful submissions in the ADC II
Apr 18 16:35:58 <jasta> since there is real data to be used
Apr 18 16:36:13 <jasta> likewise with the accelerometer
Apr 18 16:36:18 <ligi> right
Apr 18 16:36:34 <jasta> and i don't mean because the judges will be able to test them better, but more that the developers will be able to as they design them
Apr 18 16:36:45 <jasta> so the applications will be built more completely
Apr 18 16:36:56 <ligi> and more bugs ^^
Apr 18 16:37:10 <Kraln> stuff like bluetooth, too
Apr 18 16:37:10 <jasta> but a more hardened design ;)
Apr 18 16:37:41 <ligi> i'm really interested in how the apps work on real phones - this is always a big difference to emus in J2ME
Apr 18 16:38:00 <ligi> and a big pain often
Apr 18 16:38:09 <jasta> right.  i was really pleased that the app i wanted to build did not need any non-trivial simulated data.  part of the reason i decided to pursue it for ADC I actually
Apr 18 16:38:41 <jasta> ligi: My bet is that the only big difference will be fault tolerance and UI
Apr 18 16:38:54 <jasta> that is, if buttons aren't big engouh here and there, etc.
Apr 18 16:39:10 <ligi> jasta: i'm hoping so
Apr 18 16:39:16 <ligi> *hoping*
Apr 18 16:39:27 <jasta> why would you suspect it would be any different?  the emulator is an actual device emulator, not just a simulation.
Apr 18 16:39:38 <jasta> it boots the real stack, i mean.
Apr 18 16:40:00 <Kraln> I am concerned. 160dpi is 60% the size of 96dpi
Apr 18 16:40:05 <jasta> unless there are low-level bugs in the hardware or android stack, i suspect everything will function exactly the same.
Apr 18 16:40:15 <jasta> yes, folks need to realize that their UI should seem big on screen ;)
Apr 18 16:40:22 <Kraln> I hope everything is legible, I think it is for me
Apr 18 16:40:30 <jasta> that's why i was irritated at all the people complaining when the new UI was unveiled
Apr 18 16:40:30 <Kraln> some of these applications that have tons of ui elements I can't help but shake my head
Apr 18 16:40:33 <jasta> and it was much bigger
Apr 18 16:40:59 <ligi> jasta: bugs here and there - im a full time J2ME coder -so i know some pain
Apr 18 16:41:01 <jasta> Kraln: yeah, i made sure to choose large fonts and images everywhere.
Apr 18 16:41:14 <jasta> ligi: J2ME is very unlike Android, though.  Surely you must appreciate that.
Apr 18 16:41:27 <ligi> could be better with Android - but always suspect the worst
Apr 18 16:41:57 <jasta> I would be very disappointed in their SDK if it turns out that deploying to real phones is a pain and requires a lot of rethinking of your app.
Apr 18 16:42:44 <ligi> i won't - but i would be lucky if it's not so
Apr 18 16:42:50 <jasta> though i do suspect that folks who ignore errors and anomalies will be very surprised when they deploy :)
Apr 18 16:43:18 <ligi> jasta: 8-)
Apr 18 16:44:01 <Kraln> luckily
Apr 18 16:44:03 <jasta> fortunately only terrible programmers assume success :)
Apr 18 16:44:12 <Kraln> we are developing on the same platform that we are being tested on
Apr 18 16:44:15 <jasta> especially on a bloody mobile phone :)
Apr 18 16:44:36 <jasta> hey, this is interesting...
Apr 18 16:44:48 <jasta> my web server got hit with a google spider
Apr 18 16:44:57 <jasta> crawl-66-249-65-133.googlebot.com.
Apr 18 16:45:13 <jasta> but it's not a real web server, so that's odd.  it doesn't run on port 80, and it doesn't serve any pages.
Apr 18 16:45:31 <jasta> just a SyncML host and content delivery system (which requires special URLs to access)
Apr 18 16:46:07 <muthu> which port, jasta?
Apr 18 16:46:11 <jasta> 5545
Apr 18 16:46:17 <muthu> hmm
Apr 18 16:46:21 <muthu> how the spidy know?
Apr 18 16:46:24 <jasta> no idea
Apr 18 16:46:38 <jasta> it shouldn't be pointed to anywhere?  the only place it exists is in the source of my app
Apr 18 16:46:47 <Kraln> interesting
Apr 18 16:47:34 <muthu> the spidey also scan ports??
Apr 18 16:47:37 <jasta> the server in fact didn't even produce log lines, which meant that they didn't hit any of the URLs that would be required to make it work
Apr 18 16:47:57 <jasta> probably just tried to get robots.txt
Apr 18 16:48:03 <Kraln> at 1 AM I had some people hit my service
Apr 18 16:48:21 <muthu> which host?
Apr 18 16:49:02 <Kraln> I dont have capacity to log hosts =/=
Apr 18 16:49:54 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 16:51:18 <Kraln> I mean, if I'm online at the same time I can check them
Apr 18 16:51:32 <Kraln> I'm pretty big on user privacy
Apr 18 16:51:45 <Kraln> everything's encrypted. in fact, in the next version, stuff will route through tls.
Apr 18 16:53:16 <muthu> how many accounts you have kraln?
Apr 18 16:55:03 <muthu> zhobbs got your message
Apr 18 16:55:06 <muthu> but can't reply
Apr 18 16:55:52 <Kraln> accounts? with my hosting company?
Apr 18 16:56:04 <Kraln> more than ten vps, around fourty shared hosting. I have more than one machine
Apr 18 16:56:22 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 17:05:26 <jasta> Kraln: you run a hosting company?
Apr 18 17:08:13 <muthu> jasta: yes
Apr 18 17:08:42 <jasta> that's neat
Apr 18 17:09:03 <jasta> i like doing systems work like that
Apr 18 17:09:08 <jasta> even though i am primarily a programmer
Apr 18 17:09:09 <muthu> i plan to host my server
Apr 18 17:09:18 <muthu> with kraln
Apr 18 17:09:33 <muthu> damn cheap!
Apr 18 17:09:47 <muthu> $9.95 - can you believe it?
Apr 18 17:33:26 <jasta> i may actually go through my server and delete albums that don't have high quality album artwork :)
Apr 18 17:33:59 <jasta> i don't really consider this modifying my server since it is already designed to do this :)
Apr 18 17:34:47 <muthu> cool, that's the benefit for server side apps
Apr 18 17:35:32 <jasta> i mean, it watches directories for changes and tracks changes meaningfully.  that's it's job ;)
Apr 18 17:35:40 <jasta> if i just rm -rf the file it'll figure it out
Apr 18 17:36:20 <muthu> who's watching?
Apr 18 17:39:45 <jasta> what do you mena?
Apr 18 17:40:52 <muthu> i mean the files
Apr 18 17:41:10 <muthu> the files in the server can change, right?
Apr 18 17:44:02 <jasta> you mean the music files?
Apr 18 17:44:09 <jasta> yes, the server monitors them for changes and adjusts itself
Apr 18 17:44:33 <jasta> specifically, it tracks changes so the next time the client connects it can report only what has changed
Apr 18 17:45:12 <muthu> cool
Apr 18 17:45:24 <muthu> what happens on the client?
Apr 18 17:47:14 <jasta> nothing automatically right now
Apr 18 17:47:33 <jasta> the next time the client goes to sync (on a schedule or manually), it will get the newest meta data from the server as simply changes to the database
Apr 18 17:47:41 <jasta> so, added this album, renamed this track, whatever
Apr 18 17:48:39 <jasta> this is the part that is so essential to making sure the experience works efficiently
Apr 18 17:49:11 <jasta> i'm hoping to extend this to use GTalk to alert the phone when new meta data is available, and schedule a sync
Apr 18 17:49:23 <jasta> so that as soon as you get a new album into your collection it could be ready on your phone
Apr 18 17:49:28 <jasta> without pressing sync
Apr 18 17:49:33 <muthu> no the one already on the client
Apr 18 17:49:37 <muthu> will it be deleted?
Apr 18 17:49:43 <jasta> if necessary, yes
Apr 18 17:49:48 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 17:49:51 <jasta> i'm not sure i understand your question though?
Apr 18 17:50:02 <muthu> no you got it
Apr 18 17:50:04 <jasta> if the file is deleted on the server, the next time the phone syncs, the meta data about that content will go away
Apr 18 17:50:10 <jasta> including any cached versions of the songs
Apr 18 17:50:24 <muthu> right , the cache
Apr 18 17:50:52 <muthu> is it 2way sync
Apr 18 17:51:04 <jasta> not right now, though SyncML would make that effortless to support
Apr 18 17:51:12 <muthu> great
Apr 18 17:51:33 <jasta> instead, the client is just hardcoded to always report that there is nothing new, and the server is hardcoded to ignore it even if there was.
Apr 18 17:51:40 <jasta> so adding the support would just need to go straight into those two places and voila
Apr 18 17:51:54 <jasta> i intend to allow users to delete content, mainly.
Apr 18 17:52:02 <jasta> so if they hear a song on the go they don't like they can just nuke it
Apr 18 17:52:07 <jasta> and it'll disappear from their main collection
Apr 18 17:52:22 <muthu> right
Apr 18 17:52:35 <jasta> but it seemed unnecessary to support this feature at such an early stage
Apr 18 17:53:48 <jasta> i'm excited to release a bunch of this code soon
Apr 18 17:54:01 <jasta> i've been working feverishly to get it ready for mainstream consumption
Apr 18 17:54:10 <jasta> that is, for the community
Apr 18 17:54:24 <muthu> that'll make it popular
Apr 18 17:54:27 <jasta> right now the server is very crude, though functional.
Apr 18 17:54:33 <muthu> get it out
Apr 18 17:54:38 <jasta> and so i want to improve that a lot, add a graphical configuration UI to it, etc
Apr 18 17:54:49 <jasta> and also i want the phone to synchronize much more efficiently
Apr 18 17:54:59 <jasta> the first time sync is being optimized at this stage
Apr 18 17:55:08 <muthu> get an early version out
Apr 18 17:55:12 <muthu> so people can use them
Apr 18 17:55:15 <jasta> i've got it down to about 20 minutes on my personal collection (from 35), but there's still more to go.
Apr 18 17:55:24 <Hai-Fai> evening ppl
Apr 18 17:55:37 <muthu> 20 min  for how many files?
Apr 18 17:55:44 <jasta> i want to support a special first-time sync mode where the server will simply generate the database and deliver it to the phone
Apr 18 17:55:57 <jasta> muthu: 85GB worth of music, 9400 syncable items (artists + albums + songs)
Apr 18 17:56:05 <jasta> or actually, 9400 is my trimmed version
Apr 18 17:56:13 <jasta> it's actually like 15000 i think
Apr 18 17:56:17 <jasta> but i dont work with that set :)
Apr 18 17:56:29 <muthu> that's too big
Apr 18 17:56:41 <jasta> not for me it isn't.
Apr 18 17:56:41 <muthu> can you break it and sync
Apr 18 17:57:02 <jasta> the demo collection is 10GB, with like 1400 syncable items.
Apr 18 17:57:14 <jasta> but when i release, i am not going to host a demo server for that.
Apr 18 17:57:18 <jasta> i'm going to just release the real server
Apr 18 17:57:24 <jasta> and let people get at their own music to tinker
Apr 18 17:57:34 <muthu> can you reduce the sync time?
Apr 18 17:57:47 <jasta> that's what i was just talking about
Apr 18 17:58:01 <jasta> "i want to support a special first-time sync..." -- read up :)
Apr 18 17:58:07 <muthu> i mean it should be like 30 sec
Apr 18 17:58:15 <jasta> it'll never be 30 seconds for that volume of content.
Apr 18 17:58:23 <jasta> e-mail doesn't even first-time sync in 30 seconds
Apr 18 17:58:49 <muthu> you make it work
Apr 18 17:58:54 <jasta> i'm trying to get the process down to about 2 minutes for a collection of about 15GB.
Apr 18 17:59:04 <jasta> muthu: so i magically invent a faster cell phone network?
Apr 18 17:59:20 <muthu> may be there's some option
Apr 18 17:59:33 <jasta> to magically invent a faster cell phone network?
Apr 18 17:59:39 <jasta> i dunno, let me check
Apr 18 17:59:41 <jasta> ...nope :)
Apr 18 18:01:38 <jasta> how could you possibly sync something like 15MB worth of data in 30 seconds?  even at 500kbps which is generally a fast mobile connection it would take 4 minutes or so.
Apr 18 18:02:48 <jasta> like i said, i plan to get a moderate collection to about 2 minutes.  Maybe more realistically like 3 - 5.
Apr 18 18:02:54 <jasta> But that's the best that is going to happen :)
Apr 18 18:03:29 <jasta> There is a lot of data here.  300x300 album artwork, full list of tracks, artists, albums, etc including discovery dates, genre, track length/number, etc.
Apr 18 18:04:01 <jasta> but like i said, when users sync up their e-mail does it take 30 seconds?  no.
Apr 18 18:04:09 <jasta> do they wait anyway?  yes.
Apr 18 18:04:18 <muthu> there'll be some way
Apr 18 18:04:27 <jasta> my e-mail takes i dunno, maybe 10 minutes to first-time sync.  i don't mind that.
Apr 18 18:04:39 <jasta> muthu: no, there isn't.  what is wrong with you?
Apr 18 18:04:42 <muthu> see, if i download stuff
Apr 18 18:04:56 <jasta> computing is a finite operating space.  it cannot be made faster arbitrarily.
Apr 18 18:05:51 <muthu> why can't you sync it in smaller bits
Apr 18 18:06:14 <muthu> so i can listen to my music right away
Apr 18 18:07:09 <jasta> why would that be useful?  so you could listen to all your albums that start with the letter "A"?
Apr 18 18:07:17 <jasta> does that seem like a sensible way to present this information to you?
Apr 18 18:07:41 <jasta> also, while it is synchronizing, you certainly don't want to go around downloading sidebar content.  that would slow both processes down.
Apr 18 18:08:25 <jasta> i have designed this sensibly, even if you disagree :)
Apr 18 18:08:33 <muthu> listening to my music while syncing might be good for me
Apr 18 18:09:28 <zod> jasta: well you could sync the artwork afterwards
Apr 18 18:09:37 <jasta> muthu: this is the first time sync, you realize that right?
Apr 18 18:09:47 <muthu> yes
Apr 18 18:10:00 <muthu> and that's when you rock!
Apr 18 18:10:07 <jasta> zod: then what would you display if the user thinks everything is done and ready to use?  nothing?  so they get a different UI the first time they use it versus the rest of the time?
Apr 18 18:10:14 <jasta> that would be ridiculous
Apr 18 18:11:08 <jasta> or you could show some ugly "please wait" placeholder for all the albums?  that would be an awful UI
Apr 18 18:11:52 <jasta> also, it would never work in 30 seconds anyway.  there is a lot of data even without the artwork, since you'd be downloading the database structure itself.
Apr 18 18:12:09 <romainguy___> you could download the artwork later :)
Apr 18 18:12:10 <jasta> if instead you download only the data, then the phone processor has to generate the database structure which is actually slower
Apr 18 18:12:43 <jasta> romainguy___: like i said, that would be a terrible UI.  Now, you presume to let the user interact with your program but the first timey they open it they see a different experience than subsequent uses.
Apr 18 18:12:57 <romainguy___> I heartily disagree
Apr 18 18:13:06 <jasta> time*
Apr 18 18:13:06 <romainguy___> First because I've seen so many music collections without artworks
Apr 18 18:13:23 <romainguy___> And second of all because the artwork doesn't change much to the UI
Apr 18 18:13:29 <romainguy___> especially if you have an explicit placeholder
Apr 18 18:13:44 <jasta> plus, depending on how Android progresses, it may even be more sensible to promote a first-time sync by plugging the phone in to your machine
Apr 18 18:13:49 <jasta> to install the entire thing at once.
Apr 18 18:13:57 <jasta> including configuration
Apr 18 18:15:07 <jasta> so, hey, put this CD into your computer, plug your phone in, boom boom boom, you're ready to use it!
Apr 18 18:15:15 <jasta> that would be a much better set up anyway
Apr 18 18:15:18 <muthu> yes.. waiting for sync is not a good idea
Apr 18 18:15:51 <muthu> you are thinking like all the other existing stuff
Apr 18 18:15:58 <jasta> but i maintain that forcing the user to wait is better than presenting a sloppy interface that magically changes while you use it
Apr 18 18:16:16 <muthu> only the first time right.. the users will appreciate that
Apr 18 18:16:24 <muthu> they'll love your app
Apr 18 18:16:34 <jasta> yes, all subsequent syncs are not only passive, but they only have to download the changes.
Apr 18 18:16:41 <romainguy___> jasta: again, how is the UI changing if the only difference is the artwork vs a placeholder
Apr 18 18:16:47 <romainguy___> what do you show for songs with no artwork?
Apr 18 18:17:07 <jasta> romainguy___: for albums with no artwork, i show last.fm's default CD cover image.
Apr 18 18:17:18 <jasta> for my entire collection, 3% of albums have that default.
Apr 18 18:17:24 <jasta> soooo ;)
Apr 18 18:17:32 <romainguy___> then why don't you show that default until the artwork are downloaded?
Apr 18 18:17:44 <jasta> though, i suppose there is a compromise here.
Apr 18 18:18:02 <jasta> most of the UI shows a 64x64 version of the artwork in the list and the rest of the UI
Apr 18 18:18:04 <muthu> the only compromise is not waiting
Apr 18 18:18:32 <jasta> so, the first-time sync could download that version, then move on to the 300x300 version to display in the now playing screen later
Apr 18 18:19:03 <jasta> which would reduce the sync time some.  probably not much, though.
Apr 18 18:20:10 <muthu> i'm not sure why 15gb must be sync in one shot
Apr 18 18:20:18 <jasta> this would introduce some lame heuristics in the content delivery system though.  it would then need the ability to pause an artwork download when the user requests to play a song
Apr 18 18:20:21 <jasta> so as not to bog down the radio
Apr 18 18:20:41 <jasta> muthu: 15gb isn't synced.  the meta data describing the 15gb is.
Apr 18 18:21:16 <jasta> for my demo repository of 10GB, that meta data is only 11MB.  even 11MB takes a while to download to a mobile.  a few minutes, at least.
Apr 18 18:22:09 <jasta> but i suppose a fair compromise would be to download the 64x64 scaled (reduced quality) version artwork first, then move on to the 300x300 album artwork later.
Apr 18 18:22:30 <muthu> right
Apr 18 18:22:33 <muthu> see we have solutions
Apr 18 18:22:36 <muthu> great
Apr 18 18:22:38 <jasta> i just can't think of how that would work with the UI.  should it just report that the sync is finished and keep downloading stuff without informing the user?
Apr 18 18:22:46 <jasta> muthu: it would still take a few mnutes, even with this.
Apr 18 18:22:56 <jasta> you said 30 seconds, which is insane.
Apr 18 18:22:57 <muthu> you can inform the user jasta
Apr 18 18:23:01 <muthu> do it in background
Apr 18 18:23:05 <muthu> let the user know
Apr 18 18:23:08 <jasta> the entire sync process is in the background.
Apr 18 18:23:23 <muthu> right, then let him play songs
Apr 18 18:23:26 <jasta> but obviously they can't use the music until at least enough data is downloaded to display a UI to them.
Apr 18 18:23:36 <muthu> then UI must be first thing
Apr 18 18:23:40 <muthu> then meta
Apr 18 18:23:46 <muthu> seperate the bundle
Apr 18 18:23:47 <jasta> the UI is the meta data, what is wrong with you!?
Apr 18 18:24:03 <jasta> how can you display a listing of music before you know what it is?
Apr 18 18:24:13 <Kraln> jasta: yeah, I do all sorts of web services
Apr 18 18:24:15 <Kraln> anyway, gotta run
Apr 18 18:24:45 <muthu> do it incremental
Apr 18 18:26:30 <jasta> romainguy___: i am willing to explore the idea of downloading only the 300x300 artwork afterward, but do you have any suggestion for the UI of this?  the music player would become accessible once the lower quality versions and all the other meta data is available, but then should i just not report to the user that more is still being downloaded?
Apr 18 18:27:05 <romainguy___> jasta: hence the idea of a placeholder artwork with an icon suggesting a download in progress
Apr 18 18:27:17 <muthu> thats a great idea
Apr 18 18:27:37 <jasta> romainguy___: but i mean my UI is separated so that there is actually a sync manager type screen.
Apr 18 18:27:45 <jasta> that lets you visualize the progress of, basically, the first-time sync.
Apr 18 18:27:57 <jasta> it's also the screen that lets you configure the server set up, etc.
Apr 18 18:28:15 <jasta> so should that screen report to the user that everything is done and synchronized, even though it now has moved on to downloading the larger artwork?
Apr 18 18:28:47 <jasta> i imagine then you would just display the low quality version scaled large in place of the 300x300 version until it is downloaded?
Apr 18 18:29:32 <jasta> i guess you could do this pretty well, too.  you could implement the large artwork download service in such a way that it can be scheduled dynamically
Apr 18 18:29:53 <jasta> so it's just walking all the artwork downloading it, but if the user starts playing a track it could download that album's artwork right away
Apr 18 18:30:03 <jasta> then proceed to downloading the rest
Apr 18 18:30:17 <jasta> that's kind of a lot of complexity on my part, though :)
Apr 18 18:31:39 <jasta> ok, i will concede that this could work though, and would ultimately provide a better experience.
Apr 18 18:31:52 <mihoshi> I think more right would be to show "Album  artwork is loading" progress bar, and a small icon in original size...
Apr 18 18:32:34 <jasta> mihoshi: http://android-five.googlecode.com/files/play-screen2.png -- that is the screen i'm referring to
Apr 18 18:32:47 <jasta> showing the small version would look odd, i'd think ;)
Apr 18 18:32:58 <jasta> the image being displayed there is a 300x300 full quality version
Apr 18 18:33:06 <jasta> the low quality versions are 64x64, so the size difference would be dramatic
Apr 18 18:33:28 <jasta> you know what could look nice actually
Apr 18 18:34:06 <jasta> if i scale the 64x64 up, but kind of grayscale it a bit and add an animating progress bar in the center
Apr 18 18:34:27 <jasta> then when it's done just pop in the high quality version
Apr 18 18:35:46 <jasta> i wonder if it would really save that much time in the long run though.  this would only speed up album artwork, and how many albums do most users have anyway?
Apr 18 18:35:59 <jasta> the 300x300 version is usually around 100k, where the 64x64 lower quality one is about 4k
Apr 18 18:36:07 <mihoshi> jasta: Yes, it will fit better. I imagined it a little different
Apr 18 18:36:11 <jasta> for example, my demo collection has only 140 albums
Apr 18 18:36:36 <jasta> oh, wait, that's 14MB :P
Apr 18 18:36:47 <jasta> i must be wrong about the average size of the artwork then :)
Apr 18 18:36:52 <jasta> let me compute realistically
Apr 18 18:37:59 <jasta> there are 162 albums, averaging 40k album artwork sizes.
Apr 18 18:38:12 <jasta> so that's i guess 2/3 the size of the database ;P
Apr 18 18:38:25 <jasta> maybe eliminating that would improve things dramatically
Apr 18 18:40:33 <mihoshi> Or you can just show other info about album instead. List of songs, etc.
Apr 18 18:40:49 <mihoshi> Or advertising:)
Apr 18 18:41:58 <muthu> google ads!
Apr 18 18:42:04 <mihoshi> Advertising of operators with faster bandwith will fit that place perfectly ;)
Apr 18 18:47:34 <jasta> well ok, here's a compromise i can live with ;)
Apr 18 18:47:47 <jasta> thanks for forcing me to explore this muthu, even if i still think you're insane :)
Apr 18 18:48:36 <mihoshi> What have you decided?
Apr 18 18:49:47 <jasta> i have decided that i'll separate the album artwork server-side into the original and thumbnail versions.  the sync process will download only the thumbnail versions, then without reporting to the user, proceed to downloading the full size images.
Apr 18 18:50:10 <jasta> if the user enters a screen where they would expect the full size image, the background process will be asked to download that image next, display it when its ready, then go back to crawing
Apr 18 18:50:14 <jasta> crawing*
Apr 18 18:50:16 <jasta> crawling*
Apr 18 18:50:17 <jasta> ;)
Apr 18 18:50:29 <muthu> welcome jasta ;)
Apr 18 18:51:09 <jasta> this would be the policy for any sync, first-time or otherwise, though it should only be apparent during the first sync
Apr 18 18:51:32 <jasta> so the UI is released to the user early, without waiting for all the high quality images.
Apr 18 18:51:37 <muthu> i'll force you to explore again, when you are ready
Apr 18 18:51:45 <mihoshi> But what will you show in meantime?
Apr 18 18:51:47 <jasta> i did some maths and determined that, actually, the images represent easiy 2/3 of the total download.
Apr 18 18:52:04 <jasta> mihoshi: Well, see android-five.googlecode.com.  My UI shows mostly the thumbnail versions, which will be required for the sync to finish.
Apr 18 18:52:41 <jasta> the UI only displays the large image on one screen.  on that screen, the thumbnail version will be shown scaled, and partially grayscaled, with a progress widget drawn on top indicating that the large version is downloading
Apr 18 18:53:49 <mihoshi> Btw, I'm now rewriting resource loading to asynchronous in my app too... Even though they will not be loaded from wireless mostly.
Apr 18 18:54:54 <muthu> mihoshi: what's your app?
Apr 18 18:55:18 <mihoshi> Generic tabletop game engine.
Apr 18 18:55:54 <mihoshi> http://code.google.com/p/android-tabletop/
Apr 18 18:56:36 <jasta> bbl
Apr 18 18:56:40 <muthu> cool
Apr 18 18:57:47 <mihoshi> muthu: Thanks for flattery:)
Apr 18 18:59:30 <mihoshi> I'm very confident in idea, but implementation is still very ragged and incomplete. May be it will have chances in ADC II :)
Apr 18 19:00:04 <muthu> good luck
Apr 18 19:00:31 <muthu> phase 1 is more like prototype, so
Apr 18 19:01:07 <mihoshi> muthu: Thanks.
Apr 18 19:08:27 <jasta> i sure hope we have the chance to retry for the second challenge if we compete in the first
Apr 18 19:08:37 <jasta> because in 8 months, my app will have come a long way :)
Apr 18 19:08:57 <muthu> anyone is free to enter challenge II
Apr 18 19:09:43 <mihoshi> But there will be at least 5k submissions then:)
Apr 18 19:09:58 <mihoshi> Good for Android
Apr 18 19:11:26 <jasta> muthu: do you know that for sure?
Apr 18 19:11:38 <jasta> you make a lot of assumptions buddy :)
Apr 18 19:11:46 <muthu> lol
Apr 18 19:11:53 <muthu> yeah that's my assumption
Apr 18 19:12:17 <muthu> did anyone say otherwise/
Apr 18 19:12:32 <jasta> see, by your logic, the ADC I round 2 winners could re-enter their apps in ADC II and clean up some extra money
Apr 18 19:12:35 <jasta> which wouldn't seem fair
Apr 18 19:13:22 <muthu> hmm
Apr 18 19:13:55 <muthu> it makes sense for people who've lost it
Apr 18 19:13:55 <jasta> man, this song always gives me goose bumps (Minus The Bear - Part 2)
Apr 18 19:14:11 <muthu> you have a link?
Apr 18 19:14:33 <jasta> i'm sure hypemachine.com has it
Apr 18 19:14:37 <jasta> or songza.com
Apr 18 19:14:51 <muthu> ok
Apr 18 19:15:39 <jasta> o/~ Tokyo, between warm sake, and street light caught in...the falling snow o/~
Apr 18 19:15:52 <jasta> ahhh, i love these guys
Apr 18 19:19:06 <jasta> their best song, IMO, is called I'm Totally Not Down With Rob's Alien.
Apr 18 19:19:11 <jasta> you should check it out :)
Apr 18 19:19:22 <muthu> sure
Apr 18 19:19:41 <muthu> good night jasta
Apr 18 19:19:44 <jasta> night :)
Apr 18 19:42:14 <mazzen> hi! i expected to find the android.jar inside the emulator console, but did not succeed. so obviously is my view of the architecture wrong. can anyone tell me why this jar is not there, although the images, which are inside the jar are used?
Apr 18 19:50:19 <mihoshi> mazzen: Probably they are in Dalvik bytecode...
Apr 18 19:50:49 <mihoshi> If I ubderstood the question right...
Apr 18 19:51:07 <mazzen> hm...
Apr 18 19:51:44 <romainguy___> there's no jar on the device
Apr 18 19:51:47 <romainguy___> only the dex files
Apr 18 19:52:57 <mazzen> i thought that android.jar is *the* android library, where all the classes are stored, i use, when i write an android app
Apr 18 19:53:33 <mazzen> / sorry for my poor english, but i'm sitting a *few* hours in front of my computer and i'm getting tired. :-)
Apr 18 19:53:47 <mazzen> but i really would like to understand this architecture
Apr 18 19:53:55 <Ix-Xitan> does anyone knows where i can fine a progressive streamable converter for mp4 ?
Apr 18 19:54:35 <romainguy___> mazzen: that is correct, android.jar contains the framework
Apr 18 19:55:25 <mazzen> hm... so i thought, this jar should be on the device
Apr 18 19:56:16 <mazzen> in fact, i would expected to find *a* jar
Apr 18 19:57:14 <mihoshi> Probably that jar is used only for cimpiling into a java bytecode, then is is cimpiled into a Dalvik bytecode, that is linked to Dalvik android liv on device
Apr 18 19:57:54 <mihoshi> Right?
Apr 18 19:58:39 <romainguy___> mazzen: I told you, there's no jar on the device
Apr 18 19:58:48 <mazzen> there are jars:
Apr 18 19:58:52 <romainguy___> Everything is compiled into Dalvik bytecode
Apr 18 19:58:54 <mazzen> if i may:
Apr 18 19:58:57 <mazzen> ./system/framework/core.jar
Apr 18 19:58:57 <mazzen> ./system/framework/ext.jar
Apr 18 19:58:57 <mazzen> ./system/framework/framework.jar
Apr 18 19:58:57 <mazzen> ./system/framework/am.jar
Apr 18 19:58:57 <mazzen> ./system/framework/input.jar
Apr 18 19:58:58 <mazzen> ./system/framework/monkey.jar
Apr 18 19:59:00 <mazzen> ./system/framework/ssltest.jar
Apr 18 19:59:02 <mazzen> ./system/framework/framework-tests.jar
Apr 18 19:59:04 <mazzen> ./system/framework/pm.jar
Apr 18 20:00:15 <romainguy___> mazzen: but they don't contain .class files :)
Apr 18 20:00:34 <romainguy___> they're not jar files in the Java sense
Apr 18 20:00:39 <mazzen> romainguy___: what?
Apr 18 20:01:03 <mazzen> hey, that's cheating! :)
Apr 18 20:01:06 <romainguy___> they contain the classes compiled into Dalvik bytecode
Apr 18 20:04:21 <mazzen> so, are dalvik and java so different? i'mean: i don't want to be fussy, but now it seems for me that dalvik uses java as a kind of "meta-level"... and i thought that sun is very sensitive about java(tm)
Apr 18 20:05:14 <mazzen> nevermind, i guess  i have to go now, romainguy___, mihoshi thank you both for the info. maybe we can chat about it again tomorrow or in the next days.
Apr 18 20:21:43 <jasta> romainguy___: would you know how i could i link an external jar that overrides functionality provided by android.jar?
Apr 18 20:22:02 <jasta> in this case, kxml2 2.3.0 provides features i would like to include, but an earlier version is in android.jar
Apr 18 20:25:40 <jasta> i guess i'm struggling to understand at what layer this problem exists: eclipse, ADT, and/or dalvik?
Apr 18 20:26:08 <jasta> i could rule out Eclipse relatively easily, though i was hoping you'd just know ;)
Apr 18 21:28:10 <mihoshi> "Only the original thread that created a view ierarchy can touch it views" O_o
Apr 18 21:29:10 <mihoshi> That's Android exception. Then how can show in view actual info about process in other thread?
Apr 18 21:30:51 <mihoshi> Like, write in title what file is currently loaded/downloaded/parsed in a thread that is made for that things?
Apr 18 21:32:31 <mihoshi> jasta: You do something like that, right?
Apr 18 21:34:10 <romainguy> mihoshi: use View.post()
Apr 18 21:35:09 <mihoshi> romainguy: Oh, thanks:)
Apr 18 21:47:05 <Kraln> oh wow, allergies o.o
Apr 18 21:52:58 <mihoshi> romainguy: Cool, worked. I actually used runOnUIThread, but I guess it does same thing...
Apr 18 21:53:18 <romainguy> there's no point in calling runOnUiThread since you know you're not on the UI thread
Apr 18 21:58:15 <mihoshi> romainguy: Hmm, probably that's why it runtimes sometimes... Actually, I want to update Activity's title bar. Do I need to do that via View object?
Apr 18 21:59:31 <mihoshi> And, what's the point of calling runOnUiThread, if you know you ARE in the UI thread?
Apr 18 21:59:38 * mihoshi is scared and disoriented
Apr 18 22:01:08 <romainguy___> mihoshi: this method is meant for API writers, when they don't know from what thread the method will be invoked
Apr 18 22:01:18 <jasta> the only reason you'd use runOnUIThread is if you don't know.
Apr 18 22:01:30 <romainguy___> ProgressDialog uses it for instance
Apr 18 22:02:43 <mihoshi> I know that it is not UI's thread that invokes it.
Apr 18 22:02:50 <romainguy___> then call post()
Apr 18 22:03:09 <mihoshi> From Activity's view?
Apr 18 22:06:41 <ackstorm> though the activities context
Apr 18 22:18:43 * davidw missed something... runOnUiThread ?
Apr 18 22:31:48 <mihoshi> I'm using View.post() after all:)
Apr 18 22:32:39 <mihoshi> davidw: We were discussing how to update view from other thread.
Apr 18 22:42:21 <jerkface03> god damn
Apr 18 22:42:24 <jerkface03> 1788 submissions
Apr 18 22:46:36 <jasta> yeah, < 3% will win the qualifying prize :)
Apr 18 22:48:46 <Dougie187> Still hoping your one of them though. huh?
Apr 18 22:49:07 <Dougie187> I wonder how many of the 1788 were actually good though.
Apr 18 22:49:24 <jerkface03> I wonder how many of them were about social networking
Apr 18 22:49:29 <Dougie187> Heh
Apr 18 22:49:30 <jerkface03> or rather involved social networking
Apr 18 22:49:32 <Dougie187> 300 Facebook.
Apr 18 22:49:35 <jerkface03> probably > 80%
Apr 18 22:49:36 <Dougie187> 500 Myspace
Apr 18 22:49:41 <jerkface03> ya no doubt
Apr 18 22:49:59 <jerkface03> I'm anti-social ;)
Apr 18 22:50:04 <Dougie187> lol
Apr 18 22:50:30 <Dougie187> Thats why you hang out in the android IRC room huh?
Apr 18 22:50:58 <jerkface03> I hang out on IRC because I'm a troll, not because I like to socialize!
Apr 18 22:51:10 <Dougie187> no because you don't like to socialize.
Apr 18 22:51:10 <Dougie187> lol
Apr 18 22:51:20 <Dougie187> if you liked to socialize you would be out with real people instead of in a chat room.
Apr 18 22:51:29 <mihoshi> Interesting site - http://www.android-freeware.org/
Apr 18 22:51:59 <Dougie187> Lol two sudokus on the main page
Apr 18 22:53:03 <mihoshi> Wonder how many calculators are submitted.
Apr 18 22:53:23 <jasta> i really wanted someone to write a good graphing calculator application for college and high school students
Apr 18 22:53:28 <Dougie187> well hopefully one is like a ti89
Apr 18 22:53:36 <jasta> that would be excellent if folks didn't have to buy those stupid TI graphing calculators
Apr 18 22:53:38 <Dougie187> I bet it wouldnt be too bad to do it.
Apr 18 22:53:48 <Dougie187> You could probably do 3d graphics too
Apr 18 22:53:55 <jasta> actually, it would be easier than writing a TI89 at least ;)
Apr 18 22:54:07 <jasta> the processor, memory, and screen quality are all so much higher on android
Apr 18 22:54:09 <Dougie187> you could even make modules for like Geometry, Trig, Calc
Apr 18 22:54:11 <Dougie187> stuff like that
Apr 18 22:54:19 <jerkface03> i still carry my ti-83+ with me
Apr 18 22:54:24 <jasta> the touch screen offers a nicer interface to exploring graphs
Apr 18 22:54:29 <Dougie187> i lost my 89.. that thing was amazing
Apr 18 22:54:32 <Dougie187> yeah.
Apr 18 22:54:35 <jasta> it would be a very practical app.  i really hope someone attepted it.
Apr 18 22:54:38 <jasta> attempted*
Apr 18 22:54:39 <Dougie187> esp 3d graphs.
Apr 18 22:55:54 <Dougie187> If they didn't i might consider it after android comes out
Apr 18 22:55:59 <jasta> that is the type of stuff i want to see for android.  really making practical use of modern hardware.
Apr 18 22:56:18 <jasta> though, i bet the calculator could not win because TI is part of the OHA, and possibly one of the judges ;)
Apr 18 22:56:42 <Dougie187> lol yeah
Apr 18 22:56:52 <Dougie187> i bet they have some software they intend to charge for though
Apr 18 22:58:29 <mihoshi> Not all judges judge all applications:) And it is average score that matters.
Apr 18 22:59:20 <Dougie187> that is a good point.
Apr 18 22:59:26 <mihoshi> And may be next TI will be with Android installed:)
Apr 18 23:00:45 <Dougie187> Heh
Apr 18 23:00:58 <Dougie187> Didn't they make the first hardware that had android on it for a demo?
Apr 18 23:01:03 <mihoshi> Btw, with tis system there may be a lot nearly-identical apps in finals...
Apr 18 23:01:41 <mihoshi> There are phones with Unix, and som people has installed Android there already...
Apr 18 23:02:06 <zhobbs> I hate moving...
Apr 18 23:02:26 <zhobbs> I like having stuff until I have to move
Apr 18 23:02:29 <Dougie187> yeah
Apr 18 23:02:40 <Dougie187> lol moving does suck.
Apr 18 23:02:50 <Dougie187> though its easier when you move short distances.
Apr 18 23:03:02 <zhobbs> yeah, only moving an hour away, so not too bad
Apr 18 23:03:27 <zhobbs> still wears you down
Apr 18 23:04:05 <Dougie187> going to school?
Apr 18 23:04:28 <zhobbs> graduated in dec, finally got a job
Apr 18 23:04:35 <Dougie187> Nice
Apr 18 23:04:41 <Dougie187> thats even better then going to school
Apr 18 23:04:41 <Dougie187> lol
Apr 18 23:05:13 <zhobbs> yeah, nice to have a little $$ finally
Apr 18 23:05:18 <Dougie187> totally
Apr 18 23:08:41 <Dougie187> I wish i could just finish my degrees and start working
Apr 18 23:09:16 <zhobbs> yep, how much longer?
Apr 18 23:10:10 <Dougie187> 4 more years, maybe 5.
Apr 18 23:10:12 <Dougie187> depends
Apr 18 23:10:21 <zhobbs> wow, for undergrad?
Apr 18 23:10:26 <Dougie187> No Ph.D.
Apr 18 23:10:31 <Dougie187> Already got my Bachelors.
Apr 18 23:10:37 <zhobbs> ahh
Apr 18 23:10:40 <zhobbs> what field?
Apr 18 23:10:46 <Dougie187> Computational Science.
Apr 18 23:16:34 <Dougie187> its pretty fun stuff.
Apr 18 23:16:35 <jasta> oh boy, what a waste ;)
Apr 18 23:16:38 <Dougie187> lol
Apr 18 23:17:09 <Dougie187> whats your degree?
Apr 18 23:17:12 <jasta> computer science is an insufficiently deep and improperly managed field to necessitate a Ph.D.  you know, IMHO.
Apr 18 23:17:28 <Dougie187> I agree. thats why its Computational Science.
Apr 18 23:17:31 <jasta> i'm just saying you should stop at a BS :)
Apr 18 23:17:31 <Dougie187> Not computer science
Apr 18 23:17:47 <jasta> ahh, i actually missed that distinction.
Apr 18 23:17:56 <f00f-> i agree with you jasta, i get a lot of friction when i say that though
Apr 18 23:17:56 <jasta> now i'm curious though, what is computational science?
Apr 18 23:17:57 <Dougie187> yeah
Apr 18 23:18:01 <Dougie187> a lot of people dont get the difference.
Apr 18 23:18:22 <Dougie187> Computational Science is also know as Scientific Computing, or Computational Science and Engineering.
Apr 18 23:18:40 <Dougie187> Basically, its writing programs that implement different scientific models to do simulations of lab experiments.
Apr 18 23:19:18 <jasta> hmm.
Apr 18 23:19:30 <jasta> that doesn't sound like it deserves a 4 year program either :)
Apr 18 23:19:31 <Dougie187> like i will be working on climate modeling of england soon.
Apr 18 23:19:34 <Dougie187> Lol
Apr 18 23:19:45 <jasta> considering you don't come up with the scientific models, you just implement them.
Apr 18 23:19:54 <Dougie187> No, we also come up with them.
Apr 18 23:20:08 <jasta> you just said it's writing programs that implement them
Apr 18 23:20:20 <Dougie187> Yeah, but we have to come up with them sometimes as well.
Apr 18 23:20:33 <jasta> Can you give me an example, then?
Apr 18 23:21:01 <jasta> f00f-: Does the friction bother you? :)
Apr 18 23:21:01 <Dougie187> Somethings they might be too complex and we might have to talk to an expert in the field, but the hope is that the people who come out of the program can be experts in the computational aspects, as well as the scientific aspects of at least one area.
Apr 18 23:21:16 <Dougie187> but get concepts that can be applied to other areas too.
Apr 18 23:21:31 <jasta> Dougie187: But is that what happens in reality?  Are you required to specialize in a particular scientific area?
Apr 18 23:22:20 <f00f-> jasta: no, but most people think/believe you can't rise in an organization without masters/phd.
Apr 18 23:22:56 <jasta> Well then what an interesting challenge to dissuade them from their belief :)
Apr 18 23:22:59 <Dougie187> Yeah like my undergrad was in Computational Physics
Apr 18 23:23:39 <Dougie187> and here we have people who specialize in biophysics, geology, physics, chemistry, biology... and so on.
Apr 18 23:23:52 <jasta> Dougie187: But is that required as part of the program?
Apr 18 23:23:58 <jasta> Is it necessary that you leave with a specialty?
Apr 18 23:24:12 <Dougie187> theres an entire group of people dedicated to computational evolutionary biology.
Apr 18 23:24:57 <Dougie187> I guess not necessarily, but the hope is that it would happen. You probably wouldn't be very successful if you didnt have a specialty. As you would probably not do much research and then not get your Ph.D.
Apr 18 23:25:24 <Dougie187> but that can also happen in any field. the people getting degrees might not understand what they are doing.
Apr 18 23:25:56 <jasta> The field does sound interesting, I'm just endeavouring to find out if it's worthy of a 4 year post graduate program.
Apr 18 23:26:30 <Dougie187> well i dont think there is any way for a bachelor to get the training needed to do a lot of the intensive problems.
Apr 18 23:26:40 <Dougie187> i guess it depends what you would want to do with it though.
Apr 18 23:27:04 <Dougie187> If you want to do research, then definitely.
Apr 18 23:27:21 <jasta> But I suppose my point is, wouldn't it be better to specialize in a scientific field instead?  That would certainly give you a better understanding of that field and then how you could apply your undergrad CS degree to it.
Apr 18 23:27:52 <Dougie187> And undergrad CS degree is not going to teach you the techniques you need to do computational science though.
Apr 18 23:28:00 <Dougie187> an*
Apr 18 23:28:06 <jasta> And would be an equal length in term of the program, but you'd get more out of it.
Apr 18 23:28:15 <jasta> Dougie187: It isn't?  Are you sure?
Apr 18 23:28:23 <Dougie187> Yeah. i dont think so.
Apr 18 23:28:41 <Dougie187> A lot of the faculty here have Ph.D.'s in CS and they are talking about how they dont like how CS has moved in the last 20 years.
Apr 18 23:28:49 <jasta> Can you give me an example of something particular to CS that you would not have known if not for this program?
Apr 18 23:28:50 <Dougie187> They say we are doing what CS should be doing.
Apr 18 23:29:14 <jasta> Well, that's certainly fair, since CS is a miserable degree.
Apr 18 23:29:14 <Dougie187> The basis of Markov Chain Monte Carlo simulations.
Apr 18 23:29:19 <Dougie187> Or Finite Elements Methods.
Apr 18 23:29:22 <Dougie187> Or Grid Generation
Apr 18 23:30:08 <Dougie187> Numerical Analysis (though a lot of math dept teach these courses)
Apr 18 23:30:14 <Dougie187> Numerical Solutions of PDEs
Apr 18 23:30:16 <Dougie187> and ODEs
Apr 18 23:30:35 <duey> those theories are all specializations
Apr 18 23:30:42 <duey> you learn them depending on what you are doing
Apr 18 23:30:48 <duey> i have done markov chains in my 3rd year
Apr 18 23:31:02 <duey> (on my 4th now
Apr 18 23:31:26 <duey> there is no point learning markov chains if you are doing information systems for example
Apr 18 23:31:45 <Dougie187> Yeah i know.
Apr 18 23:31:46 <Dougie187> totally.
Apr 18 23:31:50 <f00f-> i love markov chains. used lots in security/malware engines.
Apr 18 23:31:53 <Dougie187> thats why a lot of CS programs wouldnt teach them.
Apr 18 23:32:02 <Dougie187> Monte Carlo has a lot of different applications though
Apr 18 23:32:06 <duey> yeah it does
Apr 18 23:32:30 <duey> all the ones i have come accross relate to data mining - but i am sure there are more uses for it
Apr 18 23:32:49 <Dougie187> You can simulate ferromagnets with it.
Apr 18 23:32:55 <Dougie187> and do integration in multi dimensions.
Apr 18 23:33:02 <Dougie187> or do global minimizations.
Apr 18 23:33:28 <Dougie187> there are tons.
Apr 18 23:33:35 <Dougie187> Study genetics.
Apr 18 23:34:02 <duey> at the university i attend, we pick different streams at the beginning ai,information systems,networking etc and that dictates what papers we take
Apr 18 23:34:07 <Dougie187> but also, a lot of those might not include markov chains.
Apr 18 23:34:23 <Dougie187> you are in a CS degree?
Apr 18 23:34:26 <duey> yeah
Apr 18 23:34:34 <Dougie187> What level?
Apr 18 23:34:40 <duey> I am in my 4th year
Apr 18 23:34:44 <Dougie187> undergrad/
Apr 18 23:34:45 <Dougie187> ?
Apr 18 23:34:46 <duey> yeah
Apr 18 23:34:50 <duey> doing honours too
Apr 18 23:34:54 <Dougie187> Thats cool
Apr 18 23:35:09 <Dougie187> What do you hope to do with it when you get out?
Apr 18 23:35:22 <romainguy___> I'm so glad I got a Ms in CS
Apr 18 23:35:27 <romainguy___> totally useless in my day job ^^
Apr 18 23:35:32 <Dougie187> lol
Apr 18 23:35:32 <duey> lol
Apr 18 23:35:42 <Dougie187> I know a couple of people like that.
Apr 18 23:35:45 <duey> Dougie187, work
Apr 18 23:35:57 <Dougie187> yes, but what kind of work?
Apr 18 23:36:00 <Dougie187> Research?
Apr 18 23:36:02 <duey> no
Apr 18 23:36:02 <Dougie187> or anything?
Apr 18 23:36:06 <duey> not research haha
Apr 18 23:36:10 <Dougie187> heh
Apr 18 23:36:34 <jasta> bbl, sorry
Apr 18 23:36:38 <Dougie187> np.
Apr 18 23:36:41 <jasta> my boss is harrassing me
Apr 18 23:36:43 <Dougie187> heh
Apr 18 23:36:46 <Dougie187> it happens.
Apr 18 23:36:47 <duey> get off irc jasta
Apr 18 23:36:48 <duey> back to work!
Apr 18 23:36:50 <jasta> harassing*
Apr 18 23:37:06 <jasta> duey: but now that i've spent all day on it, it's time to go home in 20 minutes
Apr 18 23:37:12 <duey> hahaa
Apr 18 23:37:27 <duey> its the weekend here :)
Apr 18 23:37:32 <Dougie187> here as well.
Apr 18 23:37:35 <Dougie187> end of the term too
Apr 18 23:37:42 <duey> you in aus or nz?
Apr 18 23:37:47 <Dougie187> nope
Apr 18 23:37:50 <Dougie187> Florida
Apr 18 23:37:56 <duey> weird
Apr 18 23:38:04 <duey> I am on mid term break
Apr 18 23:38:09 <Dougie187> spring break?
Apr 18 23:38:13 <duey> hmm
Apr 18 23:38:17 <Dougie187> its summer here now.
Apr 18 23:38:35 <duey> not summer here
Apr 18 23:38:39 <duey> not winter either!
Apr 18 23:38:43 <Dougie187> heh
Apr 18 23:38:51 <Dougie187> you in Australia?
Apr 18 23:38:54 <duey> na nz
Apr 18 23:38:58 <Dougie187> thats cool
Apr 18 23:39:07 <Dougie187> you go to the lord of the rings place a lot?
Apr 18 23:39:12 <duey> lol
Apr 18 23:39:30 <duey> matamata ?
Apr 18 23:39:41 <duey> its not far from here
Apr 18 23:39:44 <duey> but no I do not go there
Apr 18 23:39:56 <duey> LoTR was filmed all over nz
Apr 18 23:39:57 <Dougie187> I would go there all the time.
Apr 18 23:40:03 <Dougie187> yeah but i mean where they had Bag End
Apr 18 23:40:13 <duey> bag end?
Apr 18 23:40:26 <Dougie187> Hobbiton. (sp?)
Apr 18 23:40:30 <duey> ah
Apr 18 23:40:30 <Dougie187> did you watch the movies?
Apr 18 23:40:33 <duey> yeah thats matamata
Apr 18 23:40:39 <duey> it was a long time ago!
Apr 18 23:40:44 <Dougie187> heh
Apr 19 00:25:54 <jtoy> there are 1788 submissions??!!? holy shit
Apr 19 00:27:31 <duey> ya
Apr 19 00:27:48 <jtoy> where is that informatino from? is there an online page that talks about this?
Apr 19 00:27:55 <jtoy> i guess im not winning, haha
Apr 19 00:27:59 <duey> ya on the android blog
Apr 19 00:28:42 <duey> i sure would not like to be a judge
Apr 19 00:29:04 <jtoy> oh ok, ii have to go through a proxy since blogger is blocked here
Apr 19 00:29:19 <duey> ?
Apr 19 00:40:36 <jtoy> china
Apr 19 00:42:17 <jtoy> is  there a plave to see a  bunch of submitted apps ?
Apr 19 00:46:36 <f00f-> www.helloandroid.com jtoy
Apr 19 00:46:39 <f00f-> is one place
Apr 19 00:46:48 <f00f-> 15% of submissions are there or so
Apr 19 00:54:10 <jtoy> i should probably put mine up there
Apr 19 00:54:58 <jtoy> how do yo utell if the app there was submitted to the contest
Apr 19 00:55:00 <jtoy> its just a bunch of random apps
Apr 19 00:57:26 <jasta> yawn
Apr 19 00:59:54 <jasta> hehe, china
Apr 19 00:59:57 <jasta> oh boy :)
Apr 19 01:03:33 <f00f-> jtoy: i don't know why someone would not submit an app to ADC
Apr 19 01:04:48 <Dougie187> Did i help you understand earlier jasta?
Apr 19 01:17:46 <jasta> I suppose ;)
Apr 19 01:18:33 * jasta goes back to coding on his Android project
Apr 19 01:18:36 <jasta> so much to do ....
Apr 19 01:18:49 <Dougie187> lol
Apr 19 01:20:00 <Dougie187> what are you working on now for it?
Apr 19 01:22:36 <jasta> Dougie187: I'm implementing a much faster sync process
Apr 19 01:22:44 <Dougie187> Cool
Apr 19 01:23:03 <jasta> A lot of the code that I submitted to the ADC was just placeholder so it would work.  Now I want it to work efficiently.
Apr 19 01:23:08 <f00f-> romainguy___: what does this mean: W/SurfaceFlinger(  509): executeScheduledBroadcasts() skipped, contention on the client. We'll try again later...
Apr 19 01:24:43 <f00f-> ok looks like i shouldn't send too many intents
Apr 19 01:24:58 <f00f-> 100 intents for percentage completion is a bad idea :)
Apr 19 01:28:07 <jasta> you'll fight with your design a lot less if you implement a service.
Apr 19 01:28:36 <f00f-> well i'm not really fighting
Apr 19 01:28:40 <f00f-> i do have a service that does the grunt work
Apr 19 01:28:44 <f00f-> it just needs to report progress
Apr 19 01:28:59 <f00f-> today i'm using intents, but i'd like to use a handler
Apr 19 01:29:00 <jasta> then use aidl
Apr 19 01:29:13 <jasta> that's what it's for
Apr 19 01:34:27 <f00f-> as per your observer paradigm
Apr 19 01:34:27 <f00f-> i didn't get Handler to work over AIDL, but maybe i need to revisit it
Apr 19 01:35:05 <raboof> how hackable will a typical android phone be? suppose a vcard arrives though bluetooth, can I configure what application(s) get notified about this?
Apr 19 01:35:41 <raboof> would it be possible to remove the applications that came with the phone and replace them with (potentially hacked) open-source alternatives?
Apr 19 01:37:01 <jasta> yes
Apr 19 01:37:14 <jasta> this is all generally anticipated behaviour of the platform
Apr 19 01:37:25 <jasta> though please realize that as it stands now, none of the details are finalized.
Apr 19 01:38:56 * raboof will probably get an openmoko or android-based phone once those start to become generally available
Apr 19 01:40:00 <raboof> generally it seems the openmoko will be less 'fancy', but on the other hand it remains to be seen to what extent the android offerings will be 'tivoized' or otherwise closed
Apr 19 01:40:16 <raboof> time will have to tell I guess
Apr 19 01:41:08 <jasta> it would not be unreasonable to assume that Android will be a very hackable, open platform.
Apr 19 01:41:23 <jasta> though if you are interested in what specifically it will be capable of, you must wait :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Apr 19 02:59:57 2008