**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Apr 23 02:59:56 2008 Apr 23 02:59:59 one with a bit touch screen and a slide-out qwerty? Apr 23 03:00:03 big* Apr 23 03:00:06 not a fan of slide out keyboard Apr 23 03:00:10 have you seen the leaked photo of what is very probably the HTC Dream? Apr 23 03:00:15 no :-( Apr 23 03:00:29 Kraln: hang on then Apr 23 03:00:46 http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/04/20/htc-spy-shot-reveals-handful-of-new-phones/ Apr 23 03:01:14 the bottom row contains 3 of the same phone. that phone is believed to be the HTC Dream, the first handset to run Android. Apr 23 03:01:18 or at least, a prototype of it. Apr 23 03:01:40 wow, that's like exactly what I wanted Apr 23 03:02:11 this is based on speculation stemming from designs submitted to the FTC which originally specified WinMo, but then later retracted that and did not replace it with anything Apr 23 03:02:23 and those handsets in the photo look very, very similar to those design specs. Apr 23 03:02:32 so, the rumor mill is pegging it as the HTC Dream, the Android phone. Apr 23 03:02:41 I hope I can get it on sprint =) Apr 23 03:05:22 if true, i have a complaint about the keyboard already :) Apr 23 03:05:38 the purely rectangular design just doesnt work well. it should be angled. Apr 23 03:06:00 so that your thumb doesn't need to bend so much while using it Apr 23 03:06:46 hmm, true Apr 23 03:07:32 i admit though i like the idea of a fully keyboard and touch screen Apr 23 03:07:45 i suspect that will work well if applications are designed to take advantage of it. Apr 23 03:08:04 most apps could be designed to work nicely with just the touch screen, with just a few requiring you pull the keyboard out Apr 23 03:08:41 anyway, enough speculation. i want to take this ride in one step at a time; first up, who wins the ADC? :) Apr 23 03:42:07 :) wireless music to my xbox 360 on ubuntu.... eat that microsoft! Apr 23 04:23:32 yawn Apr 23 04:33:16 ditto Apr 23 04:33:22 just about to wrap up coding for the night Apr 23 04:33:31 almost got a successful test of my shiny new inotify support Apr 23 04:35:24 nice :) Apr 23 04:36:07 yeah, it's a big part of the puzzle, but relatively easy to do now that all my framework is in place Apr 23 04:36:18 the next big part is the GNOME, Windows, and OS X UI. Apr 23 04:36:32 :) Apr 23 04:36:34 i'm really praying that someone will write the Windows and OS X parts for me :\ Apr 23 04:36:42 i am an OS X programmer Apr 23 04:37:04 and a windows programmer.... although i don't advertise that often :) Apr 23 04:37:04 ...i'm listening ;) Apr 23 04:37:49 the UI portion of the server would be very small. basically just some basic configuration for UPnP, choosing a username/password, and some type of wizard or whatever to let you pick where your music is. Apr 23 04:38:06 s/basically// Apr 23 04:38:06 jasta meant: the UI portion of the server would be very small. just some basic configuration for UPnP, choosing a username/password, and some type of wizard or whatever to let you pick where your music is. Apr 23 04:38:12 haha Apr 23 04:38:15 stupid bot Apr 23 04:38:18 that doesn't sound so bad Apr 23 04:38:35 yeah, the UI portion of the server is very light. there's just not that much for it to configure. Apr 23 04:38:44 you already wrote logic for scanning the desired directory? Apr 23 04:38:50 duh :) Apr 23 04:38:50 or is that included Apr 23 04:39:02 haha, i wasn't sure if you had some demo setup for the challenege Apr 23 04:39:07 the engine itself is portable, written using GLib. Apr 23 04:39:12 sweet Apr 23 04:39:19 you said it was C right? Apr 23 04:39:20 and it works. it could be released now. Apr 23 04:39:22 yeah. Apr 23 04:39:24 :) Apr 23 04:39:40 it doesn't have a UI and prior to 2 days ago, no inotify support which made it kind of pointless Apr 23 04:39:50 but the latter at least is coming together now hehe Apr 23 04:40:09 previously i had to stop and start it to get it to sense changes. though it does that correctly. Apr 23 04:40:16 is capable of determing if files have been moved, deleted, etc. Apr 23 04:40:33 and it tracks those changes. it doesn't just force the phone to refresh its entire database each time a change occurs. Apr 23 04:40:42 nice Apr 23 04:40:49 so its otherwise very functional already Apr 23 04:40:53 i can help you with the server ui wizards for win and mac if you need it Apr 23 04:41:03 which is why i was a bit disappointed i couldn't really show it off the judges Apr 23 04:41:06 for the judges* Apr 23 04:41:23 I'm hoping that if I make it to round 2, they will be more open to letting me provide a real server. Apr 23 04:41:35 since there will only be 50 people competing Apr 23 04:41:49 yea Apr 23 04:41:57 i would also need a windows UI at that point, sigh Apr 23 04:42:11 i could do that as well.... i program C# Apr 23 04:42:15 i plan to do the GNOME UI myself, but I just have no experience at all writing code on Windows Apr 23 04:42:36 i do have experience writing projects that port very gracefully to Windows, however. Apr 23 04:43:23 gracefully is good :) Apr 23 04:44:28 well if you're interested, i'll approach you when the project is ready to expand to other platforms Apr 23 04:44:46 i'd really appreciate the help :) Apr 23 04:45:18 no problem, let me know when you'd like to do the Mac UI and Win UI and i'll gladly help out Apr 23 04:45:40 cool, thanks Apr 23 04:45:47 no problem Apr 23 04:46:07 hopefully i will have some prize money to share hehe Apr 23 04:46:16 but if not, i'll still need it ;P Apr 23 04:46:23 of course :) Apr 23 04:48:10 * jasta crosses his fingers and runs another inotify test Apr 23 04:49:09 segfault, woo :) Apr 23 04:49:42 fun Apr 23 04:50:04 simple omission, moving on ;) Apr 23 04:55:07 i'm excited i can stream music to my xbox from my linux computer! Apr 23 04:55:23 hooray, the inotify code works! Apr 23 04:55:29 nice! Apr 23 04:55:33 time to pay attention to my girlfriend :) Apr 23 04:55:39 haha Apr 23 05:50:56 http://kara.allthingsd.com/20080422/twitter-down-scobles-knickers-in-knots/ Apr 23 08:33:51 anyone know a linux tool to draw architecture diagrams, screenshots etc., Apr 23 08:33:56 i'm on FC8 Apr 23 08:34:28 neat someone tested my app Apr 23 08:34:37 really? Apr 23 08:34:55 ok, so the results will be out soon Apr 23 08:47:15 did you guys see this thing: Apr 23 08:47:38 http://www.enkin.net/ Apr 23 08:47:53 * davidw is so screwed Apr 23 08:48:20 ? Apr 23 08:48:21 oh yes Apr 23 08:48:23 why? Apr 23 11:20:28 re Apr 23 11:21:19 hi varjag Apr 23 12:41:24 heh, i love that topic. Apr 23 13:11:12 morning Apr 23 13:19:22 morning Apr 23 13:48:44 evening Apr 23 13:55:15 How is everyone doing on this fine morning? Apr 23 13:55:52 just dandy, yourself? Apr 23 13:55:58 * AstainHellbring is waiting for a server to be delivered Apr 23 13:56:20 Pretty good Apr 23 15:32:50 hello davidw Apr 23 15:33:00 hi Apr 23 15:33:15 ah... hi, I got your email... Apr 23 15:33:42 what do you think man? Apr 23 15:34:41 I can talk via skype, no problem... it might be tough finding a time of day that works though Apr 23 15:35:52 do you speak spanish? Apr 23 15:36:11 nope, I'm answering your email with my information Apr 23 15:36:26 thanks I shal read up Apr 23 15:36:57 there Apr 23 15:37:00 sent Apr 23 15:38:29 XD Apr 23 15:40:08 if you can send me the hours that you have "free" for your conference Apr 23 15:40:19 is for our schedule Apr 23 15:40:36 Ecuador is GMT -5 Apr 23 15:42:05 ah that's not that bad Apr 23 15:42:24 so it's 11:42 there Apr 23 15:44:15 where are you working? Apr 23 15:45:43 I have my own company Apr 23 15:47:15 www.dedasys.com - which is just me Apr 23 15:51:59 you are in living in austria?? Apr 23 15:52:10 now here is 10:52 Apr 23 15:56:45 darkbalder, ah... ok so no daylight savings, which makes since, being on the 'ecuador':-) Apr 23 15:56:53 yeah I live in Austria Apr 23 15:57:04 so that's 7 hours difference Apr 23 16:02:29 7 hours! wow Apr 23 16:03:28 well, it's not a problem - I can do a presentation in the morning your time Apr 23 16:17:03 Is there a way to vary the touch screen pressure using the emu? Apr 23 16:19:54 davidw, the conferences begin at 8h00 am Apr 23 16:20:56 we can adapt to your schedule, is better do yo think so? Apr 23 16:21:48 say me what time you prefer please Apr 23 16:35:35 i'll back Apr 23 17:29:28 so, about the enkin thing. Apr 23 17:29:45 what about it? Apr 23 17:29:50 am i missing something or does this app not seem as great as everyone is saying? i mean, how would you use this crud? Apr 23 17:30:07 its pure innovation Apr 23 17:30:10 you pull up your phone's camera and pan around to find where things are instead of just looking at a map? Apr 23 17:30:27 a map isn't more intuitive, but it sure is easier to use. Apr 23 17:30:37 it just cool Apr 23 17:30:40 and people like it Apr 23 17:30:45 right, but it's *just* cool, right? Apr 23 17:30:57 yeah Apr 23 17:31:09 i mean, does anyone actually think that they would ever practically take advantage of this for any reason? Apr 23 17:31:33 especially considering it will require GPS in order to work. so if you have a map and GPS and still can't figure out where you're going...what the hell is wrong with you? Apr 23 17:31:47 its a great shortcut Apr 23 17:31:57 i dont have to type or feed anything Apr 23 17:32:01 but is it though? to me, it seems clumsy to use. Apr 23 17:32:16 tourists would love them Apr 23 17:32:24 intuitive, but awkward. it's obvious how you would use it, but it would be lame to have to hold your camera up and walk around with it in front of you Apr 23 17:33:05 muthu: Why would they though? tourists would love GPS and a map. but why is this extra piece necessary? Apr 23 17:33:26 i really just don't get it i guess. it's very innovative and looks like it was quite challenging to do. but that alone is insufficient to make it useful. Apr 23 17:33:48 in fact i think it is a classic example of overengineering. it's *less* useful than a simpler tool: a map. Apr 23 17:33:59 think about the current alternates Apr 23 17:34:07 jasta, ah, but is it sufficient to *win the contest* ? Apr 23 17:34:23 the current alternatives are google maps with GPS, which are amazing together. Apr 23 17:34:27 enkin WILL win Apr 23 17:34:35 no doubt Apr 23 17:34:48 davidw: Well that isn't what I'm talking about. It can win, I don't care. But what the hell is the point of the tool outside of the challenge? Apr 23 17:35:17 jasta, it's pretty cool, I think... the fact that they got this thing working that marries the camera to the map in real time is pretty neat Apr 23 17:35:36 Again, I'm sure it represents an impressive challenge that the developers had to solve. But why did they solve it? Apr 23 17:35:58 Can anyone say it is something they'd like to practically use to find a destination? Apr 23 17:35:58 yes Apr 23 17:36:13 everyone with a camera and gps will use it Apr 23 17:37:03 So you're saying folks would find it easier to open google maps, search for their destination, then turn on the camera and pan occassionally to navigate to their destination? Apr 23 17:37:04 every tourist atleast Apr 23 17:37:27 what? Apr 23 17:37:47 you just open your camera and shoot Apr 23 17:37:56 No, you have to pin a location on a map first. Apr 23 17:38:02 Otherwise it does nothing. Apr 23 17:38:07 I could totally see using something like that, in, say, Rome Apr 23 17:38:14 it has tons of stuff to see and go to Apr 23 17:38:22 So you already would have to do the labor of opening the map, which at that point you have your GPS position and the location of your destination. You have already solved your problem! Apr 23 17:38:24 jasta, in the current version Apr 23 17:38:42 you could presumably load up a file with a list of things to see Apr 23 17:38:45 oh the extra steps Apr 23 17:38:55 probably will be eliminated Apr 23 17:39:15 how could it be eliminated? how would you pick a destination? Apr 23 17:39:34 crowdsource it! Apr 23 17:39:50 i suppose, but then why couldn't you just load that information in to google maps? Apr 23 17:40:34 let me just go out on a limb and say i will be very surprised if this idea takes off with anyone, anywhere. it's a great, novel innovation, and seemingly a solid implementation, but i say that it is entirely unnecessary. Apr 23 17:40:45 its really useful to see the map info overlayed with the real thing Apr 23 17:40:52 it doesn't introduce a better solution. it introduces merely a different one. Apr 23 17:41:12 jasta, you might be right that as a general purpose app it never takes off, but I'm sure there are niches where it would be great Apr 23 17:41:14 tourism for instance Apr 23 17:41:17 muthu: Useful how? The only thing it does for you is help you determine which way is north, which you can do by simply moving around in one direction and watching GPS Apr 23 17:41:19 self guided outdoor tour Apr 23 17:41:27 and you know what you're looking at Apr 23 17:41:52 right Apr 23 17:41:53 And for that matter, how does it know which way is North while you're standing still? Apr 23 17:42:03 It must be faking it Apr 23 17:42:47 Which already makes me feel like the app would suck to use. It would ask you to wander aimlessly for a moment before it can show you where things are, even if you might otherwise be able to read a map. Apr 23 17:42:47 no Apr 23 17:43:01 i don't think they're faking it Apr 23 17:43:15 then how would it know which way is North? GPS doesn't tell you your orientation. Apr 23 17:43:31 its coupled with accelerometer Apr 23 17:43:33 the only way it can be used to determine cardinality is if you walk around for a minute. Apr 23 17:43:40 muthu: the accelerometer doesn't tell you north either. Apr 23 17:44:06 the only thing that would tell you which way is north is a fucking compass :) Apr 23 17:44:45 i'm looking for an article Apr 23 17:45:03 let me find it for yo Apr 23 17:45:17 ok, but it seems pretty obvious to me. there is no utility inside of android for determining cardinal direction other than observing your GPS coordinates changing over time. Apr 23 17:45:25 http://androidguys.com/2008/04/19/developer-spotlight-series-9/ Apr 23 17:45:59 what other people did and how we could be different in some way. So I think we’ve pretty much succeeded. Enkin uses GPS, 3D graphics via OpenGL ES, video from the camera, the orientation sensors, and several web services taking advantage of always-on internet. Apr 23 17:46:17 muthu: how does that answer my question? Apr 23 17:46:33 when you first open the application and you pick a destination. it simply can't work until you walk around for a minute. Apr 23 17:46:50 unless it has been tracking your location all along, prior to its use. Apr 23 17:47:11 which would be awfully wasteful on the battery, just to determine which way is North :) Apr 23 17:48:59 well, call me a skeptic anyway. i'm predicting this application will go nowhere past the ADC. Apr 23 17:49:10 come on jasta Apr 23 17:49:13 that's a sure winner Apr 23 17:49:17 in top 5 Apr 23 17:49:23 not even to a niche market. nobody will find this better than a map and gps. Apr 23 17:49:38 muthu: and maybe it is, but it will go nowhere past the ADC, like i said. Apr 23 17:49:56 and especially if they try to put a business model on top of it they will kill the whole thing. even free it's a hard sell. Apr 23 17:50:27 they'll be bought by google Apr 23 17:50:41 extremely unlikely Apr 23 17:51:27 or one of the OHA members Apr 23 17:51:38 even less likely from the OHA members. Apr 23 17:51:48 the mobile carriers will love them Apr 23 17:52:00 http://www.pehub.com/article/articledetail.php?articlepostid=11638 Apr 23 17:52:07 Btw, what is relation between OHA and Open Mobile Alliance? Apr 23 17:52:13 not a chance. the carriers will only like applications that make people feel like they need to buy a data connection. Apr 23 17:52:20 because that's their next big market to attack. Apr 23 17:52:36 yeah with enkin, i want a onways on gps Apr 23 17:53:09 that doesn't require a data connection. but again, google maps is an application that makes people want a data connection. Apr 23 17:53:13 e-mail is an app that does this. Apr 23 17:53:34 some gimmicky tourist app that frankly has no advantage over traditional maps? not a chance. Apr 23 17:53:54 nobody is going to think that is so compelling that they must rush out and buy an android phone with GPS. ask any joe blow off the street you'd like. they won't get it. Apr 23 17:54:09 err, android phone with a data connection, i meant :) Apr 23 17:54:31 lol Apr 23 17:54:38 man you are in a mood today Apr 23 17:54:43 remember, data connections in most of the tarket markets for Android are $30/mo USD or more. So if you want a killer app that speaks to the customer it has to be worth that amount of money for the carriers to care about it. Apr 23 17:55:30 but, i'm happy to digress and patiently wait for the fallout of all this android business. Apr 23 17:55:55 i'll eat my words if Enkin is the next big marketting push and everyone is drooling at the mouth to get it. but it just ain't gonna happen :) Apr 23 17:56:18 hmm that no one knows Apr 23 17:56:21 it's a great demonstration of a great idea that has absolutely no use to anyone. Apr 23 17:57:09 even my girlfriend can finally manage to navigate using my cell phone now that i have GPS. and she can barely (and i mean barely) read a map. Apr 23 17:57:57 maps is not enough Apr 23 17:58:50 innovation doesn't care what people are comfortable with today Apr 23 17:59:20 it will find you a new comfort for tomorrw Apr 23 18:00:36 sure, but do you actually suppose that enkin is that? is it actually more comfortable to use? Apr 23 18:00:43 does it work better? easier? more sensibly? Apr 23 18:00:50 or is it just more novel? Apr 23 18:01:20 put it this way, its a new way of using maps Apr 23 18:01:50 yes, it is. Apr 23 18:02:00 and that was just my argument if you were paying attention. Apr 23 18:02:15 is it anything *more* than a new way? is it better, easier, more sensible? or just new? Apr 23 18:03:11 you have to hop your device up in the air to look at things. Apr 23 18:03:20 hop=hold Apr 23 18:03:24 i say not. this is a classic example of overengineering. the simpler tool (a map) works best. Apr 23 18:05:08 * benley demands a shrubbery Apr 23 18:08:45 jasta: suggest me a tool for drawing design diagrams Apr 23 18:09:33 muthu: OmniGraffle Apr 23 18:09:52 is it linux? Apr 23 18:09:57 no Apr 23 18:10:01 oh oh Apr 23 18:10:06 know you guys use mac Apr 23 18:10:17 i'm running FC8 Apr 23 18:10:25 dia? Apr 23 18:10:34 muthu: ArgoUML? Apr 23 18:10:43 OpenOffice Draw? Apr 23 18:11:05 yeah Apr 23 18:11:12 On linux: Sketch.. ? Apr 23 18:11:21 http://linuxfocus.org/English/November1999/article120.html Apr 23 18:11:38 wanted to know which one is widely used Apr 23 18:11:58 umbrello is in my system Apr 23 18:12:05 OO draw is available Apr 23 18:13:24 dia, poseidon Apr 23 18:13:29 argo Apr 23 18:15:16 arghhh.. design diagrams Apr 23 18:15:24 i thought poseidon was based off of argo? Apr 23 18:15:27 just use oo Apr 23 18:15:32 ok Apr 23 18:15:35 oo rules! Apr 23 18:15:52 yep, i use it for everything other than docx Apr 23 18:16:03 but i'm sure it'll be able to read it soon Apr 23 18:16:44 yes OO keeps me happy in linux Apr 23 18:16:58 and can send it in .doc for those paranoids Apr 23 18:38:34 documents should be transmitted in PDF if you ask me :) Apr 23 18:40:07 right, that's what people ask for thankfully Apr 23 18:40:12 Can someone recommend a good resource about Java optimization? Apr 23 18:40:25 why specifically about Java? Apr 23 18:41:11 http://code.google.com/android/toolbox/performance.html Apr 23 18:41:13 jasta: Because I know enough about language-unspecific optimization:) Apr 23 18:41:48 jasta: Well, not enough, but at least significiantly more than about Java-specific optimization Apr 23 18:42:03 romainguy__: Woo, thanks! Apr 23 18:42:11 well, the resource romain pointed to is a good baseline for Android development specifically Apr 23 18:42:29 although many of the important points there can be taken generically and applied to any language. Apr 23 18:43:06 jasta: except that in Java it can depend on the VM itself Apr 23 18:44:01 yes, can and does, but even in the introduction it mentions two very general strategies ;) Apr 23 18:44:20 and i'd say those are the most significant :) Apr 23 18:44:42 the most important thing is to avoid unnecessary memory allocations Apr 23 18:44:46 that helps a lot Apr 23 18:45:14 also a very good strategy for most languages and runtime systems. allocations and copies are _usually_ expensive :) Apr 23 18:45:47 actually allocations in Java SE are not expensive at all Apr 23 18:46:11 what's costly is to run the GC Apr 23 18:46:20 especially since it stops the world Apr 23 18:46:57 well, the most generally efficient GC strategies still suffer from excessive allocations, even though the damage is deferred to another time. Apr 23 18:47:50 regardless, it's never a bad idea to avoid _unnecessary_ allocations and copies. Apr 23 18:48:12 Java GC is terrible Apr 23 18:48:36 michaelnovakj1: no, it's not Apr 23 18:48:38 in certain situations it can even improve readability of your code as it is no longer moving in directions not ultimately useful to the task at hand. Apr 23 18:49:51 which one of the android apps for ADC you guys really love - pick one. Apr 23 18:49:59 michaelnovakjr__: actually it's been shown that in some circumstances an efficient GC engine can outperform humans. Humans tend to be too lazy :) Apr 23 18:52:22 jasta, that is true, but sometimes it also can cause slight delays in execution and therefore hinder performance of an app Apr 23 18:52:30 romainguy__: i do have a few specific concerns about the android-specific guide. specifically, some of this looks like a glaring deficiency of the Dalvik VM and should presumably be fixed at some point. Apr 23 18:52:33 nasdaq had that sort of issue with trading software Apr 23 18:52:42 jasta: like what? Apr 23 18:52:44 like, why would it be advantageous to cache field lookups? Apr 23 18:52:53 i think if GC was opt in then it would be better Apr 23 18:53:48 michaelnovakjr__: there are many different GC strategies, you know. sometimes it is a good idea to choose one explicitly. Apr 23 18:54:18 What Java lacks is constructing objects on stack. In C++ you can cut a lot of memory allocation with that. Apr 23 19:00:46 romainguy__: do you know? Apr 23 19:01:11 because local variables are on the stack? Apr 23 19:01:45 IIRC, Erlang has per-process GC Apr 23 19:01:52 but the lookup performance should be the same either way. Apr 23 19:01:55 Erlang is super cool for that kind of thing, but sucks at a lot of other stuff Apr 23 19:02:54 the location of the variable should be determined using O(1) whether on a local stack or as a class member. i am not certain if that is true in other VMs, but it seems intuitive that it should be? Apr 23 19:08:55 jasta: seen any hits to your server yet? Apr 23 19:12:13 romainguy__: Ah, yes, because a lot of temp data can be used ob stack instead of in heap. Apr 23 19:20:42 * mihoshi mourns absent of javax.naming in Android. So cute classess... Apr 23 19:23:22 Luckily it is not hard to include them manually... javax.naming.Name is great for uri-s Apr 23 19:26:29 f00f-: no, not since the devs were playing Apr 23 19:26:47 Btw, should only code in a product be a GPL, if it uses some GPL source, or all artwork/music/etc too? Apr 23 19:27:28 mihoshi: what? Apr 23 19:28:37 if you've been tainted by the GPL, then only the derivatives must be released under the GPL. If that doesn't include your atwork, you need not release it. Apr 23 19:29:07 However in the spirit of openness, I would still encourage you to release the artwork under an open license such as the CC. Apr 23 19:31:13 jasta: But how can I make money from it then? :) Apr 23 19:34:20 And what if artwork/etc is distributed as a separate apk? Apr 23 19:34:59 Well consider this: can you profit from it? :) Apr 23 19:35:32 Hope so:0 Apr 23 19:35:34 :) Apr 23 19:35:43 Like I said, the artwork is not implicitly tainted by the GPL just because your code is. It may be tainted for other reasons, but not that. Apr 23 19:36:10 But it makes little sense to distribute the functional part of your project under the GPL and not the artwork associated with it unless that artwork is in some way significant to the application's usability. Apr 23 19:36:17 If it is, then perhaps you can derive a business model from it. Apr 23 19:36:31 But you'll look like a douchebag if you're wrong ;) Apr 23 19:37:23 btw, profiting from mobile software and services is currently very difficult. it is certainly black magic to succeed. Apr 23 19:38:02 according to DHH, it's easy: you just have to set a price Apr 23 19:38:07 DHH? Apr 23 19:38:45 the rails dude Apr 23 19:38:58 Rails? Apr 23 19:39:15 http://www.justin.tv/hackertv/97862/DHH_Talk__Startup_School_2008 Apr 23 19:39:23 davidw: well, he's probably wrong anyway, not knowing specifically what he's talking about. Apr 23 19:39:33 mihoshi, live under a rock, or what?:-) Apr 23 19:39:37 most companies have thus far drastically overestimated consumer spending in this market and have closed shop as a result. Apr 23 19:40:06 I was being a bit sarcastic... he's prone to hand waving about how simple things are Apr 23 19:40:15 the quality of the software has traditionally been very low and the prices, in the consumer mind, too high. Apr 23 19:40:34 so mihoshi, unless you are actually different, don't bother; you'll fail :) Apr 23 19:40:59 Then what's the point of making mobile apps? Apr 23 19:41:02 instead, make users happy and just release your software open. first let's build consumers confidence that mobile software can be good, then you can worry about how to capitalize from that. Apr 23 19:41:47 I plan to release it free anyway, but I hope to profit from add-ons Apr 23 20:29:52 mihoshi: what's your idea? Apr 23 20:30:59 i just got back to my desk, and am troubled by your previous comment Apr 23 20:31:13 "then what's the point...?" -- do you regard profit as the only reason to produce? Apr 23 20:31:25 jasta: Tabletop game engine. Apr 23 20:32:17 jasta: No, but it is a way to get more time for it. Instead of wating time on getting money elsewhere. Apr 23 20:32:20 i believe that given Android's climate, any simple game or game engine is unlikely to be profitable anyway. the market will be flooded by quality, though simple, free games. Apr 23 20:34:28 jasta: Sure it will:) Apr 23 20:34:53 do you have any logic to explain your position? Apr 23 20:35:55 right now the mobile game industry is highly profitable. simple games can fetch sometimes up to $20 and are very easy to install on phones through bundled carrier services. but do you see that trend continuing in the wake of increasingly open platforms such as Android? Apr 23 20:37:19 god i hope not? Apr 23 20:37:27 jasta: There will be always people with money to spend, if you give them good excuse enough for that. Apr 23 20:37:58 mihoshi: Yes, but that fact alone doesn't mean your application will be profitable. You're describing that profitability is possible, not that you will be profitable. Apr 23 20:38:32 And right here you already have one individual not engaged in this dialog who doesn't want to see the current market continue as-is. Apr 23 20:39:13 I think you'd be hard pressed to find consumers who would. So platforms like Android are bringing a lot of pressure to change the market quite radically, sucking away all that low-hanging fruit that used to exist before. Apr 23 20:39:59 jasta: There always will be people that will not pay for something they don't really need. And there is a lot things that people don't need. Apr 23 20:40:04 not that i was ever going to spend 20 bucks on a simple game anyway Apr 23 20:40:40 that and my current phone is just a phone and i cant install games on it Apr 23 20:40:40 mihoshi: Yes, but again, you are not describing your profitability. Merely profitability in general. Apr 23 20:40:53 Perhaps you'd like to pair your own ideas with the current and future market trends and see how you fair? Not well, I'd say. Apr 23 20:41:05 hi! Apr 23 20:41:28 hello Apr 23 20:41:31 hello Apr 23 20:43:05 can emu generate call events? Apr 23 20:43:11 yes Apr 23 20:43:19 you can telnet into the emulator Apr 23 20:43:21 mihoshi: I personally intend to create a small collection of games that I have always wanted to see on my mobile. I assume many people are also thinking like me: what's a few days worth of my time to have something simple I've always wanted? Apr 23 20:43:26 what other kind of events can it generate? Apr 23 20:43:27 convivial: you can also use DDMS to do this. Apr 23 20:43:37 coolies Apr 23 20:43:57 convivial: changing data and voice connectivity, sending sms messages, that's about it. there are other third party tools that can do more, like simulate camera, accelerometer, etc. Apr 23 20:44:08 i assume that functionality is coming to ddms as well. Apr 23 20:44:11 jasta: Well, idea is like that - simple tabletop games will be free (and easily constructed by players themselves), complex ones with a lot of artwork and AI will be sold for money. Apr 23 20:44:16 jasta what are they called? Apr 23 20:44:35 convivial: i don't know, google it. Apr 23 20:44:44 mihoshi: Well, good luck. You'll fail, but good luck anyway :) Apr 23 20:44:54 Perhaps you could hope to fail slowly or something. Apr 23 20:46:00 jasta: Right now I'm concentrating on making quality product. What I will do with that afterwards - we'll see:) Apr 23 20:46:32 jasta: Btw, do you have ideas how not to fail? Apr 23 20:46:42 mihoshi: don't do it :) Apr 23 20:46:53 then you are guaranteed not to fail :) Apr 23 20:46:54 Well, you could not try. That would certaily eliminate the possibility :) Apr 23 20:47:11 you will all fail unless you paypal me $1,000,000 Apr 23 20:49:09 More seriously, just assume that there's no low-hanging fruit in the emerging market. Your app sounds very simple, and it would be difficult to fetch a profit from it. Unless you're willing to discuss in greater detail what extensions you will provide to make money, I can't offer any concrete suggsetions. Apr 23 20:49:41 Also it's important to remember that failure is an option, and does happen. Just because you're ambitious doesn't mean you will succeed :) Apr 23 20:50:13 werd Apr 23 20:50:14 Well, extension like turn-based strategy game, or collectible-like card game. Apr 23 20:50:20