**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Apr 25 02:59:57 2008 Apr 25 03:30:29 Fri Apr 25 08:50:30 IST 2008 Apr 25 07:07:25 bloody quiet in here tonight Apr 25 07:19:21 well it's early morning so don't expect too much =) Apr 25 07:36:11 good afternoon, folksy Apr 25 07:40:59 yawn Apr 25 07:43:15 have done almost no android work past week Apr 25 07:43:23 i've done a ton :) Apr 25 07:43:33 but almost none directly in android Apr 25 07:43:38 mostly server and library work Apr 25 13:05:59 I'm having some trouble understanding intents Apr 25 13:06:34 From what I understand, I can request an intent if I have a mime type, or a content type for data, or a classname Apr 25 13:07:03 This is probably a dumb question, but how would I go about writing an intent saying "Launch the default map activity" Apr 25 13:30:20 re Apr 25 14:09:50 I've just started coding on the android and I am slowly bloggin useful stuff I find out at http://blog.droidapps.co.uk if anyone has time please feel free to comment if I have mis-understood something. Apr 25 14:10:11 * android platform Apr 25 14:10:24 ok, will check it out Apr 25 14:10:51 thanks. Apr 25 14:11:43 The docs can be rather confusing at times..... especially until you get some of the basic concepts sorted in your mind... Apr 25 14:12:15 i'm adding your feed to my reader Apr 25 14:12:24 keep blogging nice stuff.. thx Apr 25 14:14:02 davidw: hi Apr 25 14:14:09 hi Apr 25 14:14:14 its not fair Apr 25 14:14:21 http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2008/04/25/sometimes-im-reminded-just-how-cool-the-internet-is Apr 25 14:14:24 is this yours? Apr 25 14:14:26 yeah Apr 25 14:14:33 then where's the link? Apr 25 14:14:37 conversation? Apr 25 14:14:55 ok Apr 25 14:15:54 i don't see the back and forth conversation.. you have the exact link? Apr 25 14:16:00 Good morning everyone Apr 25 14:16:11 Dougie187: GM Apr 25 14:16:18 How are you today. Apr 25 14:16:28 wonderful Apr 25 14:16:33 Wow, the internet. He's talking to someone in italy, after entering an italy channel Apr 25 14:16:35 getting ready to go home Apr 25 14:16:42 vol_: haha Apr 25 14:16:43 Nice Apr 25 14:16:48 I bet if I called a phone number with an italian area code, I could talk to someone in italy too Apr 25 14:16:54 lol Apr 25 14:16:56 s/area/country Apr 25 14:17:21 davidw: got it. Apr 25 14:17:54 vol_, what were you doing on the 'net in 1993? Apr 25 14:18:05 brb Apr 25 14:18:09 the local bbs scene and sending an email :\ Apr 25 14:18:29 in all fairness, I could probably have still dialed italy in 1993. Apr 25 14:18:33 I thought it was pretty cool to be able to talk with people on the other side of the world Apr 25 14:18:45 yes, its cool Apr 25 14:18:53 just like here Apr 25 14:18:59 yeah, but now we're used to it Apr 25 14:19:03 You think thats was good, you should have been there when we used to dial up to bbs's in hull, uk and leave messages for people all over the hull area :) Apr 25 14:19:18 Them were the days Apr 25 14:20:04 bbs were the first internet .....:p Apr 25 14:20:08 So, anyway, I have questions about intents if anyone can answer them Apr 25 14:20:14 arpanet was the first internet : ( Apr 25 14:20:30 it could survive a nuclear war, but not spammers Apr 25 14:21:50 vol_: did you read the docs? Apr 25 14:22:07 or my intent article :) Apr 25 14:22:10 he's too busy reading my fascinating online journal Apr 25 14:22:24 I've been reading them Apr 25 14:22:31 * lummie does a gratuitous plug Apr 25 14:22:32 I still have stupid questions Apr 25 14:22:46 I'm actually looking at http://blog.droidapps.co.uk/background-intents-non-visual/ right now Apr 25 14:22:54 cool Apr 25 14:23:36 It's at points like this I think "isn't the net great" Apr 25 14:23:37 basically, from what I understand, you can pass a URI, a mime type, or a classname for your intent Apr 25 14:24:38 my stupid question is "how do I make an intent that says 'launch the map application'" Apr 25 14:24:50 preferably without hardcoding it for gmaps, for example Apr 25 14:25:11 app.map.whatever.MAIN Apr 25 14:25:19 as the action Apr 25 14:25:23 category default. Apr 25 14:25:37 basically what would be in the main activity in the manifest Apr 25 14:25:53 * I think (new to this as well) Apr 25 14:27:54 well Apr 25 14:27:58 app.map.whatever.main Apr 25 14:28:00 what is that? Apr 25 14:28:08 hmmm... for it not to be hard coded all the maps apps must register to support a protocol e.g. maps:// or smoething like that and ten you can launch a url Apr 25 14:28:41 the package/classname of the activity to run Apr 25 14:28:51 I understand Apr 25 14:29:07 I guess I'm just looking for the magic bullet that says "launch maps!" Apr 25 14:29:58 I'm sure in the docs somewhere someone has worked out what the maps apps, actions are. you can launch that. Apr 25 14:30:21 Or unpack the apk off the emulator and see what's in them manifest ? Apr 25 14:30:51 I suppose Apr 25 14:31:05 to spill the beans a bit, I'm working on a map api that won't be extending the MapActivity stuff Apr 25 14:31:22 I'm trying to make a maps replacement, and want to know if it's possible for it to be in a list of "alternates" for the user to launch Apr 25 14:32:22 I'm concerned that basically everyone is going to hardcode gmaps into their activities Apr 25 14:32:53 meaning that unless people cooperated you wouldn't be able to launch us outside of the launcher bar Apr 25 14:34:44 hmm, there's a geo: content type it seems? Apr 25 14:34:46 Yeah there needs to be a "registry" of protocol schemes for android somewhere..... google should provide it really centralized. Apr 25 14:34:59 sounds good Apr 25 14:35:23 and for navigating round reality instead use neo:// Apr 25 14:47:49 Intent i = new Intent("android.intent.action.VIEW", Uri.parse("geo:40.428917,-74.416580")); Apr 25 14:47:53 that launches gmaps Apr 25 14:48:09 now to see if I can register something for the geo scheme Apr 25 15:10:11 evening, and have a nice weekend everyone Apr 25 15:10:30 you too Apr 25 15:16:07 muthu: have you tried hardy yet? Apr 25 15:16:18 Dougie187: no, am using FC8 Apr 25 15:16:39 recently upgraded from FC6 Apr 25 15:16:43 cool Apr 25 15:16:46 skipped fc7? Apr 25 15:16:49 yup Apr 25 15:16:58 and the upgrade was soo seamless Apr 25 15:17:04 impressed! Apr 25 15:17:12 heh thats good Apr 25 15:17:24 yeah afaik lost no data Apr 25 15:19:30 i did, in my upgrade yesterday. but it was my own fault Apr 25 15:19:44 so I cant really complain Apr 25 15:19:51 i forgot to commit some stuff to my svn for homework Apr 25 15:19:56 oh oh Apr 25 15:20:00 not a big deal though, since i did it again today Apr 25 15:20:20 but you shouldn't lose data Apr 25 15:20:22 (i mean re-did the stuff i forgot to commit) Apr 25 15:20:28 well i reinstalled. Apr 25 15:20:31 dont forget. Apr 25 15:20:35 ok Apr 25 15:20:44 why reinstall, instead of upgrade? Apr 25 15:20:54 so i guess you could say i 'chose' to loose my data. Apr 25 15:20:55 lol Apr 25 15:20:58 lose. Apr 25 15:21:06 hehe Apr 25 15:21:09 to get rid of some program i dont use. Apr 25 15:21:12 that i forget that i have installed. Apr 25 15:21:20 and because i totally f'ed up my opengl installtion Apr 25 15:21:25 ok, so you were having fun Apr 25 15:21:31 yup. Apr 25 15:21:32 heh Apr 25 15:21:43 now i have to figure out how to get opengl 2.0 installed. Apr 25 15:21:45 since i have 1.3 Apr 25 15:22:08 use the package manager Apr 25 15:22:18 thats how i got 1.3 Apr 25 15:22:24 now update Apr 25 15:23:02 http://www.themechanicalzoo.com/ Apr 25 15:25:51 what is this. Apr 25 15:27:10 its the mechanical zoo Apr 25 15:28:11 but it doesnt have anything on it right now. Apr 25 15:28:20 right Apr 25 15:28:57 its in stealth Apr 25 15:29:08 in other words, they've produced nothing :) Apr 25 15:29:19 exactly Apr 25 15:29:46 like we are currently ;) Apr 25 15:30:02 who's we? Apr 25 15:30:13 http://mobeegal.in Apr 25 15:31:32 your launch is coming up Apr 25 15:31:42 hi Apr 25 15:31:57 jun 30 - v1.0 Apr 25 15:32:12 is it working good? Apr 25 15:32:28 yes Apr 25 15:33:41 thats cool Apr 25 15:33:48 sounds pretty neat. Apr 25 15:34:05 its HUGE! Apr 25 15:35:03 Dougie187: I've been running hardy for about a month, had no real problems in that time apart from firefox3 related..... is it out of beta yet? Apr 25 15:35:23 yeah Apr 25 15:35:25 yesterday Apr 25 15:35:37 my problems were all with firefox3 as well. Apr 25 15:35:48 yeah, with flash sites. Apr 25 15:36:58 well flash sites were an issue with firefox 2 as well. Apr 25 15:37:19 you are talking about flash being always on top right? Apr 25 15:38:06 no, I had problems after browsing a flash site, navigating away then suddenly firefox would terminate for no reason at random intervals Apr 25 15:38:51 thats weird. Apr 25 15:38:55 lol, never seen that problem. Apr 25 15:39:12 My problem was that I couldnt install the google toolbar in FF3 Apr 25 15:48:15 anyone know where to download opengl 2.0 libraries? Apr 25 15:48:16 lol Apr 25 15:48:43 its best to go with package manager Apr 25 15:49:02 its giving me 1.3. Apr 25 15:49:06 and i need at least 1.5 Apr 25 15:49:46 hardy supports only 1.3 Apr 25 15:49:48 ? Apr 25 15:49:55 ionno Apr 25 15:49:59 thats all i can find in the repos Apr 25 16:00:51 according to this ....http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=316332 opengl 2.0 is just the spec number of open gl, you need to loog for graphics card drivers that support 2.0, e.g ati / nvidia drivers. Apr 25 16:01:03 loog=look Apr 25 16:20:40 working from home today Apr 25 16:20:44 aka, totally screwing off, woo! :) Apr 25 16:22:19 jasta: it'd be easier to tell when you do go to work and acutally do some work :p Apr 25 16:22:58 not really, since it never happens :) Apr 25 16:27:09 jasta: you got any hits Apr 25 16:27:23 i'm not looking now, but i didnt have any yesterday Apr 25 16:27:50 just looked, nope :) Apr 25 16:30:48 the other day i was at work and googled for String as i normally do to look up javadocs on J2SE classes Apr 25 16:31:12 but apparently googling for String shows you pictures of girls in string bikinis, despite the J2SE documentation being the first hit web hit :) Apr 25 16:34:15 any1 mods motorola phones here ? Apr 25 16:36:33 jasta: you gotten any hits yet? Apr 25 16:37:54 no, i just answered that :) Apr 25 16:39:32 sorry, just came on the channel Apr 25 16:40:00 ah, didn't realize i asked before Apr 25 16:40:03 sorry Apr 25 16:40:35 are you running your server from home? Apr 25 16:44:39 no :) Apr 25 16:45:12 what service are you using? i'm running from home, and i'm experiencing a lot of problems (comcast drops my connection, etc.) Apr 25 16:45:53 that happens to me as well. Apr 25 16:46:15 Dougie187: you running your server from home as well? Apr 25 16:46:43 I dont have a server. but i have comcast. and i get my connection dropped a lot Apr 25 16:46:55 i guess comcast recently starting blocking outgoing smtp though Apr 25 16:47:06 not that it affects me, but a friend mentioned it to me Apr 25 16:47:31 ya, my friend was telling me that comcast doesn't like users running programs on any nonstandard port Apr 25 16:47:42 that may be my problem Apr 25 16:47:50 so what's your app? Apr 25 16:48:38 i didnt get to write one. Apr 25 16:48:47 couldnt think of any ideas i got excited about. Apr 25 16:48:54 started too late? Apr 25 16:49:17 I would have loved to have worked on one, but i just didnt have any good ideas for it Apr 25 16:49:42 you can try joining an open source project (openintents, for example) Apr 25 16:50:14 there's actually a few open source projects i think have high chances of winning Apr 25 16:50:57 true. Apr 25 16:51:13 Can you give a list? :) Apr 25 16:51:17 lol Apr 25 16:51:23 ya sure Apr 25 16:51:43 openintents, kudostar Apr 25 16:51:48 let me look at google code again Apr 25 16:51:51 one sec Apr 25 16:52:18 I remember there was a site with a list, but can't find it now... Apr 25 16:53:04 http://code.google.com/hosting/search?q=android&btn=Search+Projects Apr 25 16:53:22 look through this list Apr 25 16:53:28 android-geocast is goodd Apr 25 16:53:30 mine is to be released open source, though is not currently Apr 25 16:53:49 yours is a weather app/ Apr 25 16:53:50 ? Apr 25 16:53:59 his is music Apr 25 16:54:15 oh, ok Apr 25 16:54:41 I just thought it would be fun to write something for android. Apr 25 16:54:55 and a benefit of it would be once I got an android phone, I could write software for it easier. Apr 25 16:55:00 because I would already know some about it Apr 25 16:55:43 i wrote a weather app :) Apr 25 16:55:50 if you have no idea of something that would be useful but doesn't already exist, you haven't opened your eyes :) Apr 25 16:55:52 that's right Apr 25 16:55:54 it was you Apr 25 16:56:02 yep Apr 25 16:56:06 weatherphone Apr 25 16:56:32 there are a lot of useful things i can think of, but most of them would be incredibly hard to implement Apr 25 16:57:00 michaelnovakjr_1: was that the one with the great interface? Apr 25 16:57:19 most of the things i could think of were things that I would expect would be in android already Apr 25 16:57:51 mine is the warning system Apr 25 16:58:01 its on androidguys.com Apr 25 16:58:13 ok, i'll check it out Apr 25 16:58:25 Man I hate androidguys btw. They are wayyyyyy too chatty :) Apr 25 16:58:33 michaelnovakjr_1: you have any hits on your server yet? Apr 25 16:58:45 it seems like the judges haven't done much Apr 25 16:58:47 jasta: i agree Apr 25 17:00:12 even go to their page. it's like, what is this, yahoo.com? jeez. Apr 25 17:00:24 i wish they get some good writers Apr 25 17:00:42 Dougie187: True that. Putting tags on map and filtering by them can be done with one relatively simple app, and that will cover funstionality of half map-based apps likely:) Apr 25 17:01:45 jjt009: What thinks are you tlking about? Apr 25 17:02:32 their news coverage is good, but their opinions articles arent that good. Apr 25 17:03:55 things like image recognization, super-accurate gps coordinates, etc. Apr 25 17:03:56 living_sword: well like these " weeks of OHA". they're miserable Apr 25 17:04:25 yeah, like we dont know what motorola is , duh. Apr 25 17:04:37 hehe, exactly Apr 25 17:04:44 one of the apps i was thinking about writing was one that could detect the store you go into and prompt you to rate it Apr 25 17:04:46 they think they are being clever but they're anything but. Apr 25 17:04:57 but gps coordinating hasn't reached that kind of precision Apr 25 17:05:16 I liked the idea of a fully functional graphing calculator. Apr 25 17:05:23 jasta brought that one up afaik Apr 25 17:05:29 Dougie187: that was my idea. I really want someone to write that :) Apr 25 17:05:35 but I have already committed to a very ambitious project. I can't :) Apr 25 17:05:44 look at the user-base though... Apr 25 17:05:53 not many people are going to be using something like that Apr 25 17:06:06 an app like that, if open sourced, would see a lot of community attention too. Apr 25 17:06:11 i dont think any1 of the androidguys is a developer Apr 25 17:06:29 living_sword: I would actually think they were lying if they claimed otherwise :) Apr 25 17:06:40 maybe, but think about the majority of cell phone users Apr 25 17:06:54 What is expected precision of GPS on androphones? Apr 25 17:07:08 it's not really about getting attention from the open-source community, but from the general cell phone user community Apr 25 17:07:20 I had a cell phone in high school. and a ti 89. Apr 25 17:07:31 mihoshi: i'm not sure, but definitely not precise enough for my purposes Apr 25 17:07:32 if my cell phone could have been a ti 89 as well, i wouldnt have spent 150 on the 89 Apr 25 17:07:32 lol Apr 25 17:07:37 I had a cellphone before high school.. Apr 25 17:07:49 jeez, how old are you Hai-Fai Apr 25 17:07:49 Dougie187: how old are you now? Apr 25 17:07:55 the ti89 is pretty recent Apr 25 17:07:58 23 Apr 25 17:07:58 GPS is quite accurate these days, provided you are out of doors ;) Apr 25 17:08:02 25 Apr 25 17:08:02 ah, ok Apr 25 17:08:35 no but such an app would be very expensive Apr 25 17:08:36 i would use it today too. Apr 25 17:08:42 true. Apr 25 17:08:44 cost of the ti-89 minus hardware cost Apr 25 17:08:50 you would have to do symbolic algebra Apr 25 17:08:56 and calculus. Apr 25 17:08:58 think about the development cost of mathematica Apr 25 17:09:00 it would be fairly intense. Apr 25 17:09:04 yeah Apr 25 17:09:08 i paid 150 bucks for that thing Apr 25 17:09:12 maple + mathematica for your phone. Apr 25 17:09:15 and it's just a piece of software Apr 25 17:09:22 you could start small though. Apr 25 17:09:28 i guess Apr 25 17:09:41 like i said, projects like that would catch on fire with the open source community. Apr 25 17:09:46 you'd get a lot of support, i'm very certain of that. Apr 25 17:09:56 mathematica is incredibly powerful...i can't see some on a cell phone equaling it anytime soon Apr 25 17:09:58 it wouldn't be something you'd end up writing alone Apr 25 17:10:32 and since you would write it in java you could probably take advantage of a lot of the ploting libs they have for java. Apr 25 17:10:33 i even imagine having a modular layer in which you can abstract the source of data off to a [set of] servers somewhere. Apr 25 17:10:34 even with five committed developers, something like that would take me at least two years Apr 25 17:10:47 jjt009: Well, anyone can just open googlemap, find this shop's tag on it and comment/leave a message about it. I'm not sure that phone's nagging to do something not immediately useful for phone's owner is a high-demanded function. Apr 25 17:10:47 so you could do heavy number crunching and graph/manipulate the output externally Apr 25 17:11:44 mihoshi: browsers are pretty slow, and a lot of users don't want to take the time to fill in comments and things like that Apr 25 17:11:47 jasta: Serverside? Apr 25 17:11:52 it's got to be extremely quick Apr 25 17:12:02 mihoshi: optionally, yes. just thinking of how the project could expand. Apr 25 17:12:15 i imagine it would be an extremely valuable tool Apr 25 17:12:21 and a worthy project to spend your time on Apr 25 17:12:22 jasta: serverside crunching could be doable Apr 25 17:12:40 but with the current network speed, i'm not so sure Apr 25 17:12:55 jjt009: I'm sure map around GPS will be cached in android phones. Apr 25 17:13:48 that's true Apr 25 17:14:12 but the thing is, that cached map around GPS could be made by one of us Apr 25 17:14:32 it's not necessarily google that will be doing all the basic development Apr 25 17:15:49 Can map area be saved to bitmap? Apr 25 17:16:06 i'm not sure Apr 25 17:16:12 i haven't done a lot of work with maps Apr 25 17:16:43 With copyWindowBitmap(), may be... Apr 25 17:17:12 jasta: what's the coolest app you've seen so far Apr 25 17:17:47 would you guys ride this? http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/25/uno-electric-unicycle-gets-spiffy-new-body-still-terrifying/ Apr 25 17:18:22 wow, yes Apr 25 17:18:38 only in the parking lot though Apr 25 17:18:52 lol Apr 25 17:19:01 i wonder what the gas milage is like. Apr 25 17:19:43 should be higher Apr 25 17:20:29 that's tight Apr 25 17:20:42 ya man, my garage will contain that and a smartcar Apr 25 17:20:48 heh Apr 25 17:20:57 i guess its electric. Apr 25 17:21:02 so the gas milage doesnt matter. Apr 25 17:21:20 muthu: can you put out another test to my app? Apr 25 17:21:24 how much wattage then? Apr 25 17:21:38 doesnt say Apr 25 17:21:52 jjt009: what app? Apr 25 17:21:57 the BusinessRate Apr 25 17:22:03 oh come on Apr 25 17:22:14 why you testing like crazy? Apr 25 17:22:21 i'm unsure whether comcast has dropped the connection Apr 25 17:22:35 the judges have not hit yet? Apr 25 17:22:39 nope Apr 25 17:22:42 you? Apr 25 17:22:51 mine is a cooking app Apr 25 17:22:55 runs on the emulator Apr 25 17:23:08 they did hit our server yesterday [or day before it, can't remember], but results will "arrive" on May Apr 25 17:23:09 doesn't connect to a server to receive info Apr 25 17:23:19 muthu: i was just kidding about the test Apr 25 17:23:50 jjt009: cool, i've tested enough buddy Apr 25 17:23:55 lol Apr 25 17:24:11 i feel your pain Apr 25 17:24:23 i know you are anxious Apr 25 17:24:59 don't worry comcast will be like a rock Apr 25 17:25:07 i hope so Apr 25 17:25:15 it generally works well Apr 25 17:25:15 a cheap rock that breaks easily. Apr 25 17:25:18 sandstone Apr 25 17:25:25 until i start websurfing on my server Apr 25 17:25:47 that' why i'm trying to use my other machine Apr 25 17:25:48 lol Apr 25 17:26:08 Dougie187: that's a perfect description Apr 25 17:26:20 my demo server for the judges runs on a production server connected with a T-1 Apr 25 17:26:26 it's not going anywhere :) Apr 25 17:26:43 jasta: got hit? Apr 25 17:26:45 i would have used 56k if i were you guys. Apr 25 17:26:49 nope, he hasn't Apr 25 17:26:52 not since the very early stages when it was morrildl and friends :) Apr 25 17:27:13 jasta: you got dan to test your app... Apr 25 17:27:21 i'm excited to show off my actual server, though. if i win, i won't be submitting with a demo server setup. Apr 25 17:27:22 wow Apr 25 17:27:54 jasta: how in the bloody world did you reach morrill? Apr 25 17:27:57 kind of. my app is part of the test case for their automagic judging tool Apr 25 17:28:07 ah, ok Apr 25 17:28:31 he hasn't replied to my email or my private message Apr 25 17:29:01 jjt009: what did you ask? Apr 25 17:29:04 well, what were you contacting him about? :) Apr 25 17:29:37 well, i lost power to my server when one of the judges connected Apr 25 17:29:48 that is very unfortunate ;) Apr 25 17:29:53 yep Apr 25 17:29:59 when did this happen? Apr 25 17:30:05 but there are four judges, so hopefully i'll be oi Apr 25 17:30:06 because last week at least the judging had not begun Apr 25 17:30:08 ~ok Apr 25 17:30:09 fine Apr 25 17:30:17 tuesday, i believe Apr 25 17:30:26 oh, that was probably a judge then :) Apr 25 17:30:37 btw, the server hosting my project is on battery backup. Apr 25 17:30:40 it could have been one of my friends, but i doubt it Apr 25 17:30:41 hehe Apr 25 17:30:49 who are you with? Apr 25 17:31:05 no one, i just have a lot of resources like that ;) Apr 25 17:31:18 by resources he means money,. Apr 25 17:31:19 no i mean, what company is hosting your server? Apr 25 17:31:19 jasta runs his own grid Apr 25 17:31:19 ...at my, erm, disposal. Apr 25 17:31:30 jjt009: I know what you meant. Apr 25 17:31:33 wtf Apr 25 17:31:36 hehe Apr 25 17:31:38 how? Apr 25 17:31:43 friends in high places, you know. Apr 25 17:31:54 wait, wait Apr 25 17:31:55 actually i'm just pulling your leg Apr 25 17:32:03 it's hosted at my work. where i am the sole admin. Apr 25 17:32:09 ahhhh Apr 25 17:32:23 what company are you working at? Apr 25 17:32:25 we have 5 production Linux servers, two of which connected via our T-1, and one of which hosts my project for the time being :) Apr 25 17:32:43 nowhere special, actually just a lighting company, though a very large one. Apr 25 17:32:56 awesome, so you got paid for building an android app? Apr 25 17:33:00 or you worked at home? Apr 25 17:33:03 not at all Apr 25 17:33:08 i worked in my spare time Apr 25 17:33:14 ok Apr 25 17:33:31 that's great Apr 25 17:33:31 but i abused their resources to host the app for the challenge. my immediate supervisor is aware of this, and has no problem with it. Apr 25 17:33:56 ya, my machine is connected via a normal comcast line, which always drops on me Apr 25 17:34:16 if not for these resources available to me, i would have purchased short-term hosting. Apr 25 17:34:34 ya, i should have made that investment Apr 25 17:34:43 it wouldn't have been more than like $50 i bet. Apr 25 17:34:54 especially since your traffic and storage requirements are probably very low. Apr 25 17:34:57 $9.95 Apr 25 17:35:03 actually, i do have friends that would have hosted this system for free as wlel Apr 25 17:35:21 devtcg.org, for example, is hosted by one of them. some debian maintainer, i dunno :) Apr 25 17:35:43 ya, someone told me about apache axis Apr 25 17:36:05 bluelinux.co.uk, that's it. if anyone's curious :) Apr 25 17:36:20 morrildl: hello Apr 25 17:36:41 morrildl is referring to his taxes. safely disregard :) Apr 25 17:36:52 cool Apr 25 17:36:56 haha Apr 25 17:37:19 jasta: can you explain what your app does? Apr 25 17:37:33 sure Apr 25 17:38:22 the abstract is that it's a media distribution system, which is efficiently implemented with an awareness of your local media, it's meta data, and how best to organize it. Apr 25 17:38:44 concretely, it's a music player on android that accessing your music on the go using your wireless data connection. Apr 25 17:38:53 accesses* Apr 25 17:39:06 the devil is in the details, though. it's very efficient by design. Apr 25 17:39:20 nice Apr 25 17:39:29 from your home computer? Apr 25 17:39:44 for example, it synchronizes all the meta data about your media passively so that the experience for the user appears just like it had been physically synchronized like with an ipod Apr 25 17:40:07 similarly, content is cached, downloads are preemptive, etc so it tries very hard to get the data for you and get out of your way. Apr 25 17:40:51 additionally, the music player attempts (poorly for now) to utilize last.fm services to enhance the playback experience. there are lots of directions i want to take this support moving forward. Apr 25 17:40:54 do you have a public release yet? Apr 25 17:40:57 no Apr 25 17:41:15 you said you're going to open source it? Apr 25 17:41:25 since the challenge, i have drastically improved performance of the sync process, and am introducing a GNOME UI to the server component Apr 25 17:41:29 yes, i will Apr 25 17:41:54 because of the nature of the ADC, the project evolved strangely. not like a normal open source project would. as a result, the release of source is delayed some. Apr 25 17:42:35 specially, there is no documentation and certain small pieces hardcoded for the challenge. as such, it is unlikely that in its present state anyone would actually figure out how to make it work for themselves :) Apr 25 17:42:43 a normal project would not have been designed that way Apr 25 17:43:16 right Apr 25 17:43:26 that definitely sounds like an app i would use Apr 25 17:43:29 so, these are the things being worked on now, in this sort of limbo period before we find out the results of the challenge. Apr 25 17:43:52 ultimately, i would like to extend it to support video, images, and perhaps even generalized content. Apr 25 17:44:11 the separation of meta data from content is an important piece for this system, and it could work for lots of other media forms. Apr 25 17:44:49 for example, a photo album system could be implemented quite efficiently to transmit only meta data about when photos were taken, thumbnails, etc. but then when you click them they could be downloaded live to show the full sized versions. making the user experience otherwise very responsive for browsing, searching, etc. Apr 25 17:45:07 though photo albums aren't really something i'd like to concretrate on since online services do it well anyway Apr 25 17:45:12 you can sure talk a lot about your app. Apr 25 17:45:28 it's not like i just spent the last 4 1/2 months of my life working on it or anything :) Apr 25 17:45:39 lol Apr 25 17:45:48 it'll be like my thesis when i finish it Apr 25 17:45:58 if i didn't at least think the system was awesome then would all this have been for? Apr 25 17:46:06 man, i need to come up with a good idea soon Apr 25 17:46:19 for what? Apr 25 17:46:24 i'm probably going to make a fresh app for challenge II Apr 25 17:46:37 Dougie187: what college are you going to? Apr 25 17:46:41 FSU Apr 25 17:46:45 (florida state) Apr 25 17:46:49 jjt009: go buy a windows mobile phone, use it for a week, and you should have plenty of ideas what's wrong with the current state of mobile software. Apr 25 17:46:54 cool, my cousin went there Apr 25 17:47:02 thats cool Apr 25 17:47:04 whatd they study? Apr 25 17:47:15 i believe business Apr 25 17:47:22 thats what my brother is studying. Apr 25 17:47:23 you? Apr 25 17:47:35 jasta: ya, my dad has a blackberry Apr 25 17:47:37 im in the masters program for Computational Science (Not Computer Science) Apr 25 17:47:40 i've been looking at that Apr 25 17:47:49 nice Apr 25 17:47:59 im going to try to get a Ph.D. after my masters too Apr 25 17:48:05 good move Apr 25 17:48:10 should get my masters after this next year Apr 25 17:48:25 got my bachelors from OSU, Oregon State Apr 25 17:49:17 jjt009: i encourage you to think practically about what the industry needs, though. Apr 25 17:49:31 too many of the ADC submissions are just simply too far ahead of themselves. Apr 25 17:49:36 the industry isn't prepared to support them Apr 25 17:50:00 jasta: like what? Apr 25 17:50:19 weatherphone is one of them Apr 25 17:50:26 well, like Enkin for example. it's all the rage apparently, but it's just not practical. Apr 25 17:50:42 so, will such apps will the contest? Apr 25 17:50:44 it solves no problem real users have. Apr 25 17:50:49 what is the point of weatherphone? Apr 25 17:50:52 jjt009: oh yeah, probably. Apr 25 17:51:02 so when are the judges going to finish their judging? Apr 25 17:51:04 weatherphone is a severe weather warning system Apr 25 17:51:06 this week? Apr 25 17:51:15 jerkface03: prob Apr 25 17:51:17 jerkface03: apparently Apr 25 17:51:29 and winners will also be announced this week? Apr 25 17:51:36 jasta: but why would nonpractical apps win? Apr 25 17:51:44 jerkface03: no may 5 Apr 25 17:51:57 jjt009: honestly, because it looks like the ADC is saturated with poor quality apps. Apr 25 17:52:04 Dougie187: weatherphone communicates with backend servers to show users severe weather warnings in their area, its great for at night when you are sleeping and there's nothing to alert you Apr 25 17:52:13 they have ot pick 50, and i bet they will come up short picking 50 that are actually going to be in people's pockets. Apr 25 17:52:44 i suspect you will find a strong disconnect between the ADC winners and the usage trend users will follow with Android. the second challenge will likely be much more practical. Apr 25 17:52:59 since there will be real phones and a practical experience to be delivered immediately. Apr 25 17:53:00 jasta: ah Apr 25 17:53:06 definitely Apr 25 17:53:30 so what major problems are you seeing in today's phones Apr 25 17:53:38 with my project, at least, i have attempted throughout development to test the parallels i can with real hardware. Apr 25 17:53:45 what i'm seeing are not major problems, but instead lack of functionality Apr 25 17:53:56 so i'm not seeing exactly where you're coming from Apr 25 17:54:03 for example, i have setup a simple streaming media server and have tested the performance of it from my windows mobile phone in various places i find myself on a daily basis Apr 25 17:54:19 i took a road trip up to bellingham, went hiking, etc. tested it at a bunch of spots there to see how it would work in practical settings Apr 25 17:54:28 i test it at work like once a week to see how the networks fluctuate Apr 25 17:55:19 jjt009: open your eyes. until recently, voicemail exclusively had a tone pulse interface! Apr 25 17:55:39 michaelnovakjr: sounds like a good idea. Apr 25 17:55:49 but those are low level things that google will probably take care of Apr 25 17:56:02 or at least the devs working on android itself Apr 25 17:56:13 yes, but it's just one small example of how the industry has ignored everything around them. Apr 25 17:56:31 Dougie187: i think it is, just need support because i want to make it free Apr 25 17:56:45 yeah Apr 25 17:56:55 i could see how it would be pretty expensive too Apr 25 17:57:00 but it would replace a weather alarm too Apr 25 17:57:07 and if the power was out, it would still work. Apr 25 17:57:08 what about the state of integration with existing social tools that are explosively popular right now? Facebook and MySpace, for example. Apr 25 17:57:27 They each have simple WAP versions of their pages available, and that's the extent of support we see on almost every phone in the market. Apr 25 17:57:59 but the social tools dont have a significant benefit to them. Apr 25 17:58:06 Dougie187: that is the idea. I run the servers that organize the warnings based on data for the phones, it makes it less intensive for the phone Apr 25 17:58:14 yeah Apr 25 17:58:52 Dougie187: the project page is at http://code.google.com/p/weatherphone, there are screenshots there Apr 25 17:58:52 jasta: very true Apr 25 17:58:52 you could probably even charge a small amount for it. Apr 25 17:58:57 Dougie187: Right, which is why it should be painfully clear how to come up with ideas for Android. Apr 25 17:58:58 and it would help a decent amount Apr 25 17:59:23 socials tools are a waste of time Apr 25 17:59:24 jjt009: I promise you, there is a significant disconnect between what people use and need on a daily basis and what cell phones provide. Apr 25 17:59:28 I mean i am sure people would be willing to pay like ~$5 a month for a service for it. Apr 25 17:59:31 did anyone see the Office last night? Apr 25 17:59:35 yeah Apr 25 17:59:35 lol Apr 25 17:59:39 it was pretty funny. Apr 25 17:59:39 Cell phones are impressively powerful, and are on your person at all times of the day. Apr 25 17:59:46 perfect example of over usage of social networking Apr 25 17:59:46 And yet, all they do for most people is make phone calls. Apr 25 18:00:06 so you think relatively simple apps could win the competition? Apr 25 18:00:12 Heh, I like how the screen shots from most android apps that i have seen are impressive in them self. Apr 25 18:00:14 jjt009: yes Apr 25 18:00:23 It would be like the Internet supporting only amazon.com. Useful, yes. Robust, no? Apr 25 18:00:25 jjt009: why not? Apr 25 18:00:43 I could see simple apps winning the comp. Apr 25 18:00:45 well, it seems like most of the apps i've seen so far are incredibly complex Apr 25 18:00:52 jjt009: I think anything that is actually going to find use in any significant area will win. Apr 25 18:00:54 enkin is a prime example Apr 25 18:01:04 what is enkin? Apr 25 18:01:07 i haven't heard of it. Apr 25 18:01:08 enkin is fucking stupid. nobody is going to use that thing. Apr 25 18:01:13 enkin.com Apr 25 18:01:17 enkin.net Apr 25 18:01:18 enkin is extremely useless Apr 25 18:01:24 it will probably win just to pad up to the 50 winners that are required for the challenge. Apr 25 18:01:42 enkin doesn't even look like it would work :) Apr 25 18:01:48 oh yeah. Apr 25 18:01:50 i saw that before. Apr 25 18:01:52 jasta: so you think there are 1720 or so apps that suck even worse than enkin Apr 25 18:01:52 it was on engadget. Apr 25 18:02:04 I think duey's app, if developed, will also be a good candidate for the win. It's "simple" in terms of UI (WHICH IS GOOD), but very powerful. Apr 25 18:02:24 michaelnovakjr: no offense, but i think your app is going to be crazy difficult to make free. Apr 25 18:02:27 It's just a simple tool that combines OCR, the camera, and online translating services so that non-native speakers can take a photo of something they don't understand and have it translated for them Apr 25 18:02:37 Dougie187: i definitely understand that Apr 25 18:02:47 i am trying, didn't say it would be successful Apr 25 18:02:51 heh yeah. Apr 25 18:02:53 jasta: that's freaking complex Apr 25 18:02:55 it would be awesome if it was. Apr 25 18:02:56 image parsing? Apr 25 18:03:01 Even though I can't see myself using this app living in the US and speaking fluent English, I can still see how this thing could be really great. Apr 25 18:03:04 billions of lines of code Apr 25 18:03:05 ? Apr 25 18:03:14 jjt009: He didn't write the OCR engine or the transaltion system. he just combined them in a way that's new and useful. Apr 25 18:03:23 ah, ok Apr 25 18:03:36 and a completely useless implementation Apr 25 18:03:38 and his UI is very simple. the idea is very simple. users can grasp this. Apr 25 18:03:39 but accuracy? Apr 25 18:03:47 image parsing is still in its early stages Apr 25 18:04:04 you can do it fairly easy with a decent computer. Apr 25 18:04:11 and the accuracy is pretty good too Apr 25 18:04:16 but on a cell? Apr 25 18:04:19 jjt009: i'm certain it is very accurate for printed, typed text, which is what you're most likely to encounter when translation is an issue. Apr 25 18:04:23 no, you would upload it to a server. Apr 25 18:04:30 have the server do it. and then tell the phone was it was Apr 25 18:04:32 right Apr 25 18:04:37 yeah, that's how it works. Apr 25 18:04:38 what* Apr 25 18:04:59 the reality is, a lot of useless apps are going to win because they've clearly saturated the challenge. Apr 25 18:05:00 where the hell did he get all the parsing and translation libs? Apr 25 18:05:07 like i said, completely useless Apr 25 18:05:10 but they are still useless, and will not find much use after the challenge. Apr 25 18:05:13 i would never use something like that Apr 25 18:05:28 michaelnovakjr_1: i wouldn't either, but that does not make it useless. Apr 25 18:05:45 just to you its useless. Apr 25 18:05:50 someone might have a use for it. Apr 25 18:05:51 things like enkin are useless, because there is no segment of people who would prefer to hold up their camera and walk around the city staring at a screen than simply glancing at a map and going. Apr 25 18:05:52 jasta, agreed.... but i can't see many people using something like that Apr 25 18:06:07 michaelnovakjr_1: Are you serious? Even in the US there is a huge population of people who speak very poor English Apr 25 18:06:25 jasta: where the **** will they get an android phone Apr 25 18:06:25 can it translate from a different language? Apr 25 18:06:30 haha Apr 25 18:06:35 not to mention if the OCR engine was trained for european langauges. Travelers to europe would find this immensely useful. Apr 25 18:06:43 totally. Apr 25 18:06:47 jasta: i hate to be blunt... but most people in the u.s who can't speak english can't afford an android phone Apr 25 18:06:48 thats what i was just going to say. Apr 25 18:07:10 what about visitors. Apr 25 18:07:13 jjt009: In case you haven't been paying attention, Android is a platform not a phone. And it's a completely free one. Apr 25 18:07:15 or internation students. Apr 25 18:07:24 it just doesn't practical .... Apr 25 18:07:25 or foreign graduate students. Apr 25 18:07:31 It would not be a stretch to find Android ported to much lighter hardware platforms. Apr 25 18:07:44 jasta: no, no, what i mean is that android will only run on smartphone devices Apr 25 18:07:45 jasta, with limited power Apr 25 18:07:46 like MIDs Apr 25 18:07:49 You can go out right now and buy a $50 phone with GPRS data and a 1.3MP camera. That's all you'd need. Apr 25 18:07:57 jjt009: No, that isn't true either. Apr 25 18:07:59 if you make android for lighter platforms OCR is going to suck on it Apr 25 18:08:07 ok, then i see your point Apr 25 18:08:12 michaelnovakjr_1: the OCR runs on the server. Apr 25 18:08:21 the phone just sends an image, and gets back text. very light. Apr 25 18:08:38 i personally would have trouble affording an android phone costing over 200 bucks Apr 25 18:08:45 I could imagine taking Android *right now* and porting it to a phone that only costs $100, and duey's app would still work. Apr 25 18:08:52 cost* Apr 25 18:09:11 i could actually see that being pretty useful. Apr 25 18:09:16 though I would not personally use it. Apr 25 18:09:25 maybe if I were traveling. Apr 25 18:09:28 Dougie187: definitely, but in time only Apr 25 18:09:29 can anyone even imagine using apps like Enkin on the most advanced smartphone on the market: an iPhone? Why the hell would you want it!? Apr 25 18:09:42 I cant imagine using enkin. Apr 25 18:09:54 that's my point. these things are the ones generating the buzz, but no one will pick it up and use it. Apr 25 18:10:08 there are *TONS* of apps like this. Apr 25 18:10:15 but you have to wonder, if it is creating buzz with the judges. Apr 25 18:10:18 search the android-challenge mailing list. 95% of them you can't imagine a single practical use. Apr 25 18:10:25 its creating buzz in the community, but that might not be what the judges care about Apr 25 18:10:27 but the judges are only human Apr 25 18:10:47 they are just like the people that are getting excited about enkin Apr 25 18:10:53 they can't help seeing how cool it is Apr 25 18:10:54 i don't think the judges will go for 50 useless apps just because they look cool Apr 25 18:11:00 i would be willing to say that Google is disappointed with the quality of submissions into the ADC. As a result, i'm sure some apps they wouldn't want to win still will. Apr 25 18:11:02 no, they should be at least slightly more intelligent. Apr 25 18:11:18 and i'd be willing to say that because at least one Google employee has said this to me :) Apr 25 18:11:21 if android is going to be popular it should do the basics and do them awesome..... Apr 25 18:11:37 jasta: man, you've got some good connections.. Apr 25 18:11:40 haha Apr 25 18:11:52 turns out i do, but i didn't know that going into this :) Apr 25 18:11:59 lol Apr 25 18:12:10 and thats back to the point of people who are in it for the money jasta. Apr 25 18:12:14 another one of my buddies just got hired on and is moving to mountain view next month too hehe Apr 25 18:12:21 nice Apr 25 18:12:29 though he's not the one i'm referring to Apr 25 18:12:43 i think it would be fun to work for google. Apr 25 18:12:44 anyway, that's not important. we can all plainly see that most of the apps are useless. Apr 25 18:12:46 Hundreds of that apps (at least) are ports of successful porjects from another platforms. So, they are not suck entirely:) Apr 25 18:12:50 we don't need anyone at google to validate that. Apr 25 18:12:52 i'm thinking about working on gwt to attract google's attention Apr 25 18:12:56 maybe i'll be hired Apr 25 18:12:58 who knows Apr 25 18:12:59 jasta agreed Apr 25 18:13:15 i think the community is going to need to step up after the results Apr 25 18:13:32 just because a project is successful doesnt mean it doesnt suck. Apr 25 18:13:32 so, as i said, i'm sure lots of impractical apps will win just because the ADC is so flooded with them. it's better than well done but eccentric app win over a practical one which is poorly implemented and broken Apr 25 18:13:33 we need to fill in the gaps that were caused by people developing useless apps Apr 25 18:13:38 but ports don't seem to be what google is looking for Apr 25 18:13:49 you can write a hugely successful facebook app, that completely sucks. Apr 25 18:13:56 screw facebook! Apr 25 18:14:06 lol i agree. Apr 25 18:14:08 it's better trhat* Apr 25 18:14:09 but still. Apr 25 18:14:10 i mean Apr 25 18:14:23 michaelnovakjr_1: you don't understand how many people use facebook Apr 25 18:14:29 now that's a big market Apr 25 18:14:35 i do, i just think its a phase Apr 25 18:14:44 its just a time waster. Apr 25 18:14:50 nothing that is productive. Apr 25 18:14:52 i'm in high school, and literally every kid i know uses facebok and/or myspace Apr 25 18:14:57 and myspace is even worse. Apr 25 18:14:58 exactly Apr 25 18:15:01 high school Apr 25 18:15:05 yep Apr 25 18:15:12 it trickles down. Apr 25 18:15:17 2 years ago it was college. Apr 25 18:15:23 now its high school and middle school Apr 25 18:15:31 and its saturated. Apr 25 18:15:31 if you haven't seen last nights Office.. totally watch it Apr 25 18:15:34 heh Apr 25 18:15:41 it cracks jokes at social networking Apr 25 18:15:45 Wonder what will be the app, that has high scores in all categories - Android specific, Polish, Originality and Indispensability Apr 25 18:15:50 its the most ridiculous thing in the whole world. Apr 25 18:16:04 not everyone is looking to be productive all the time Apr 25 18:16:32 but use other things to not be productive. Apr 25 18:16:32 i actually use facebook all the time Apr 25 18:16:34 i love it :) Apr 25 18:16:40 i hate facebook. Apr 25 18:16:47 i used to use myspace a lot too Apr 25 18:16:51 I don't even know it's url Apr 25 18:16:52 but left it because facebook was less annoying Apr 25 18:16:55 I dont get anything out of it. Apr 25 18:17:06 i get to communicate with my friends hehe Apr 25 18:17:07 facebook is better than myspace. Apr 25 18:17:11 but it is getting worse and worse Apr 25 18:17:11 jasta, but do you atleast see the facebook push for business is impractical? Apr 25 18:17:13 myspace is completely static Apr 25 18:17:17 it's a piece of ... Apr 25 18:17:20 the minute they let anyone sign up for it it went down hill Apr 25 18:17:23 michaelnovakjr_1: totally. facebook is a toy. Apr 25 18:17:31 but that doesn't invalidate it. toys are also useful. Apr 25 18:17:45 dude, michael, that's linkedin Apr 25 18:17:52 jasta: agreed Apr 25 18:18:16 there's software for every niche Apr 25 18:18:18 jjt009: facebook is also trying to get in the business world Apr 25 18:18:24 bbl Apr 25 18:18:28 k Apr 25 18:18:29 good example is Alfresco Apr 25 18:18:34 until sex predators saturate the community. Apr 25 18:18:35 lol Apr 25 18:18:48 yeah, i agree, it's kind of a stupid effort Apr 25 18:19:00 facebook's made a lot of foolish moves recently Apr 25 18:19:05 just wait for 2.0 Apr 25 18:19:09 it will fix everything Apr 25 18:19:09 ad campaign, etc. Apr 25 18:19:22 What about livejournal? Apr 25 18:19:23 alright, i got to go guys Apr 25 18:19:28 nice talking to you Apr 25 18:19:28 see ya Apr 25 18:19:32 bye Apr 25 18:19:32 haha Dougie187 Apr 25 18:19:34 heh Apr 25 18:19:41 its coming out at a time TBD Apr 25 18:19:46 haha Apr 25 18:19:54 TBD dude,.... get excited Apr 25 18:20:00 lol Apr 25 18:20:01 lets clap Apr 25 18:20:03 its amazing Apr 25 18:20:06 TBD Apr 25 18:20:12 considering that exactly 5 Googlers besides me currently have access to the judging stuff and are in a position to say whether we are disappointed or not, and I know none of them have said we are, I am dubious ;) Apr 25 18:20:37 have you gone through all of the apps? Apr 25 18:20:39 It is definitely true that there are a lot of.... "hastily".... constructed apps Apr 25 18:20:40 nope Apr 25 18:20:48 which is why I don't even have an opinion :) Apr 25 18:20:51 heh Apr 25 18:20:52 we are waiting for the scores like everyone else Apr 25 18:21:03 I have seen a bunch, and there are some gems and there are some junk Apr 25 18:21:09 is judgement week going to turn into judgement month? Apr 25 18:21:22 Dougie187: hopefully not, judging is progressing Apr 25 18:21:28 thats good. Apr 25 18:21:30 it takes some time. Apr 25 18:21:32 not as quickly as we'd like, but about as quickly as we'd expect Apr 25 18:21:40 obviously we expect a WHOLE lot of judging to get done over the weekend Apr 25 18:21:49 more so than during the week Apr 25 18:21:54 i would have been surprised if it got done in a day. Apr 25 18:22:50 morrildl: hopefully weatherphone hits a judge sweetspot Apr 25 18:22:55 heh Apr 25 18:23:01 then you can try to get some funding for it. Apr 25 18:23:04 and make it free Apr 25 18:23:05 exactly Apr 25 18:23:06 michaelnovakjr_1: unfortunately I can't comment publicly on specific entries Apr 25 18:23:09 haha Apr 25 18:23:10 here is an idea. Apr 25 18:23:15 you, of course, can :) Apr 25 18:23:26 i really want to make it free Apr 25 18:23:33 try to sell some advertising at the end of your posts. Apr 25 18:23:37 i would hate to charge for something that should be a public service Apr 25 18:23:50 michaelnovakjr_1: what's your main cost? Apr 25 18:23:59 paying for data, or hosting services? Apr 25 18:24:00 server back end morrildl Apr 25 18:24:14 Have you checked out Google App Engine or Amazon Web Services? Apr 25 18:24:21 the key to the app is to have the server organize location and warning data so the phone doesn't have to Apr 25 18:24:23 I know GAE will have a free tier, and IIRC AWS does Apr 25 18:24:40 morrildl: does that include database Apr 25 18:24:47 GAE does, not sure about AWS Apr 25 18:24:48 do you need database? Apr 25 18:24:59 the info has to come from somewhere :) Apr 25 18:25:00 GAE does not, however, really allow for extensive batch/cron-style processing Apr 25 18:25:04 couldnt you just pull it from a site though. Apr 25 18:25:12 Dougie187: everytime it needs to check? Apr 25 18:25:18 yeah. Apr 25 18:25:31 i would kill the other sites with the load Apr 25 18:25:38 heh, well if you dont have a database. Apr 25 18:25:42 haha Apr 25 18:25:53 michaelnovakjr_1: you should definitely be able to fetch-and-cache on demand in GAE, at least Apr 25 18:25:56 the way its running now is super fast for the phones Apr 25 18:26:08 the phone is basically just a display engine Apr 25 18:26:13 yeah Apr 25 18:26:17 the server does all the heavy lifting Apr 25 18:26:26 but its mainly your database right? Apr 25 18:26:31 AWS is more like a virtualization play, so I think you might be able to do more batch-processing with their compute cloud stuff Apr 25 18:26:36 that and web services Apr 25 18:26:45 morrildl: i am going to look into that Apr 25 18:26:49 yeah check them out Apr 25 18:27:03 morrildl: my number one goal is to keep it free, so I am trying hard to achieve that Apr 25 18:27:25 personally i think it would be really useful. Apr 25 18:27:27 someone who lives in a tornado area that isn't all that rich shouldn't have to pay for something that could save them for a storm Apr 25 18:27:37 michaelnovakjr_1: Word. Apr 25 18:27:41 and a lot of people wouldnt mind paying for it (if it was a slight fee) if they had to. Apr 25 18:27:54 Dougie187: true Apr 25 18:28:00 a majority probably would Apr 25 18:28:09 heh, just send an occasional ad as an alert ;) Apr 25 18:28:13 yeah Apr 25 18:28:15 but I am primarily focued on helping low income areas of the US Apr 25 18:28:17 or include ads in the alerts Apr 25 18:28:24 at the bottom Apr 25 18:28:43 and pad it with ----- ADS BEGIN ----- Apr 25 18:28:47 ----- ADS END ----- Apr 25 18:29:03 Dougie187: perhaps not: "WARNING: TORNADO HEADING YOUR WAY YOUR HOUSE IS IN DANGER! Sponsored Link: Home Depot has everything you need for home repair and improvement!" Apr 25 18:29:13 haha, true Apr 25 18:29:18 Heh. Apr 25 18:29:25 Im sure a lot of companies would help though. Apr 25 18:29:28 when you see tornado coming... i don't think you care about home depot at that moment Apr 25 18:29:48 michaelnovakjr_1: hmm, maybe try getting in touch with the Red Cross? Apr 25 18:29:52 but like in tennessee earlier this year, some 53 people were killed overnight Apr 25 18:30:00 they might be interested in collaborating on something that, maybe? Apr 25 18:30:05 maybe. Apr 25 18:30:07 or hosting it. Apr 25 18:30:08 its sad that in america something like that can happen Apr 25 18:30:23 or the national weather service. Apr 25 18:30:32 thats where you would get the data from anyways. Apr 25 18:30:49 noaa and the fcc are trying something with text messages, but as I have always said .... i hate relying on text messages Apr 25 18:31:00 but they are still far off as far as i know Apr 25 18:31:03 text messages are flaky Apr 25 18:31:15 we have a text messaging system in place for emergencies on campus here. Apr 25 18:31:21 there's a different way of handling it that is supposed to be better, but i am not sure Apr 25 18:31:50 about 3 week ago there was a suspicious package in the building next to me that they thought was a bomb ( a lot of people might have read about it) and i didnt get the text telling me about it for 5 hours, after the scare had ended. Apr 25 18:31:50 also, my application will have GPS abilites, so if you are travelling you don't have to update your location Apr 25 18:32:16 Blackbird is here ssssshhh Apr 25 18:33:02 NOAA might be interested in picking up your app though. Apr 25 18:33:13 since they have the data already it might not be a huge cost for them to run it Apr 25 18:33:34 at the end of the year I think some 200 million people will have cellphones in the US Apr 25 18:33:49 if you get even a 50% turn out on the app that is a ton Apr 25 18:33:57 yeah Apr 25 18:34:12 but i dont know if you can do that, since the app is specific to android. Apr 25 18:34:23 this version is :0 Apr 25 18:34:24 what % of those 200 mil are going to have android phones by the end of the year? Apr 25 18:34:28 heh Apr 25 18:34:28 true Apr 25 18:34:51 right now i have only heard of 2 android phones that are "rumored" to be out by the end of the year Apr 25 18:34:58 which is why I plan to expand it, but android is my first target because .... as you might have seen on androidguys, is my favorite platform! Apr 25 18:34:58 so thats going to be a small % Apr 25 18:35:09 heh Apr 25 18:35:12 [21:28:15 ] < michaelnovakjr_1>but I am primarily focued on helping low income areas of the US <-- but do they have enough money to buy a (cell)phone? =) Apr 25 18:35:26 Hai-Fai: usually yes Apr 25 18:35:30 not Apr 25 18:35:33 for android case Apr 25 18:35:46 it won't be $50 phone when it apperas Apr 25 18:35:47 how do you know? Apr 25 18:35:47 ok, maybe not android.... but this application will be built for other system Apr 25 18:35:49 appears Apr 25 18:36:00 android phones are not supposed to cost a whole hell of a lot as far as i know. Apr 25 18:36:05 and i mean we havent even seen them Apr 25 18:36:06 android is the first platform to see the app Apr 25 18:36:35 i am hoping android turns out to be the phone for the people..... something cost effective and efficient to use Apr 25 18:36:45 android could easily top the iPhone Apr 25 18:36:50 thats what i heard part of the point was though. Apr 25 18:37:02 iPhone costs you both arms and a leg Apr 25 18:37:06 heh Apr 25 18:37:06 yeah Apr 25 18:37:11 and your first born Apr 25 18:37:14 yep Apr 25 18:37:19 and their first born too Apr 25 18:37:24 and 3/4 of your soul Apr 25 18:37:34 apple lets your keep 1/4 Apr 25 18:37:36 to be nice Apr 25 18:37:40 i am prepared to write as many android apps as needed.... all free and open source! Apr 25 18:38:02 you should see how google implemented their gmail app for multiple phones Apr 25 18:38:18 it would really well. Apr 25 18:38:31 even on my old crappy phone Apr 25 18:38:33 if we get enough applications that perform tasks people actually need, android will without a doubt be a huge hit Apr 25 18:39:08 How efficient is your app as far as power consumption? Apr 25 18:39:12 i'll write anything for android, then go ahead and make it open source and free, just to keep it nice and open Apr 25 18:39:24 Dougie187: i expect it to be great on power Apr 25 18:39:33 i wrote it with power a top priority Apr 25 18:39:41 Here is an idea. Apr 25 18:39:49 i dont know if you have thought about this or not. Apr 25 18:39:57 but make the pull sections like a timer. Apr 25 18:40:08 so you can say for the next 6 hours or so pull warnings every 5 minutes. Apr 25 18:40:11 or every minute. Apr 25 18:40:16 then after that go to a default Apr 25 18:40:20 that's built in alreday Apr 25 18:40:20 like once every hour or so Apr 25 18:40:32 you know, a system like that would be best if you didn't have to interact with it much Apr 25 18:40:35 it should automatically do things like that :) Apr 25 18:40:53 jasta, i was thinking of making it pull more when connected to a power source Apr 25 18:40:54 well you could do that too Apr 25 18:41:03 and also pull more in the middle of the night Apr 25 18:41:09 you could parse the things, and set it to when the alert is supposed to end Apr 25 18:41:14 when you aren't alert about what is going on around you Apr 25 18:41:15 have it pull more until an alert ends. Apr 25 18:41:34 also, why pull at all? why not utilize an email to SMS gateway so the service part can simply deliver SMS messages to the phone? Apr 25 18:41:50 at the very least you could use SMS to alert the phone to pull from the server Apr 25 18:41:55 so that it gets status updates as they happen Apr 25 18:41:59 SMS is not always reliable.... but jasta i am looking into a push service Apr 25 18:42:06 thats what i was going to say. Apr 25 18:42:08 SMS is more reliable than a data connection Apr 25 18:42:26 i would disagree. Apr 25 18:42:29 personally. Apr 25 18:42:41 also, you could then use GTalk as well. you could use lots of different techniques to ENSURE the messages make it to target. Apr 25 18:42:58 Dougie187: you'd be wrong, of course. they operate on the same network. Apr 25 18:43:08 it's just that the data portion has more that can fail Apr 25 18:43:24 jasta, i see your point... i was actually looking into GTalk Apr 25 18:43:37 sms has never been very responsive in respect to situations with me. Apr 25 18:43:44 same here Apr 25 18:43:59 i can usually get online with my phone before I can get an sms message Apr 25 18:44:27 well, opinions and speculation aside, you can and should support both SMS and GTalk. this is a system that should be very redundant. Apr 25 18:44:50 true it should be redundant. i just dont think he should solely use sms. Apr 25 18:44:59 it would probably be a good idea to send alerts via sms Apr 25 18:45:04 but still have the phone pull alerts. Apr 25 18:45:22 it should be awoken with SMS or GTalk, and pull when neither has responded in an amount of time. Apr 25 18:45:38 i mean that's the big problem to solve here. Apr 25 18:45:48 is making a system that's very redundant and efficient Apr 25 18:45:53 is gtalk reasonably reliable? Apr 25 18:46:12 I wouldnt want to rely on SMS to awake my notification system Apr 25 18:46:17 you guys are claiming that the data connection is reliable, and so to whatever degree you couple that with Google's ability to maintain a service like GTalk :) Apr 25 18:46:47 well i havent messed with gtalk on android yet. Apr 25 18:47:00 i mean gtalk as far as on pidgin and gmail has worked great so far. Apr 25 18:47:56 i just thought it would be a good idea to have pulls increase for a certain time frame. Apr 25 18:48:09 my experience is that SMS is far more reliable than data. judging by what other people have said this obviously doesn't hold true across all carriers, locations and networks but...I think the key is to be flexible Apr 25 18:48:11 ideally until an alert is ended. Apr 25 18:48:52 at any rate, the critical problem here is reliability. this should be the big thing you need to solve. Apr 25 18:48:54 flexibility is the key. Apr 25 18:48:56 nothing else matters Apr 25 18:49:00 until that works :P Apr 25 18:49:01 yup Apr 25 18:49:03 heh Apr 25 18:49:31 anyway, i'm back to coding. Apr 25 18:49:35 have fun! Apr 25 18:50:17 at any rate. i think it is a good idea. Apr 25 18:50:22 and i wish you luck with your goal of making it free Apr 25 18:51:30 flexibility is a good idea though. because some people might not have a data connection on their phone. Apr 25 18:51:35 maybe they dont want to pay for it. Apr 25 18:51:43 so sms might be a good alternative. Apr 25 18:52:35 you might allow users to set the default means of communication. or something like that Apr 25 18:52:59 definitely! Apr 25 18:53:07 sms will be an option Apr 25 18:53:10 server is ready for it Apr 25 18:53:26 maybe, do some tests and see which is the most reliable. Apr 25 18:53:38 then set them in order of preference and allow the user to turn off certain means if they want to Apr 25 18:53:53 another idea would be to allow the user to limit how many sms messages they want to get a month. Apr 25 18:54:01 for people who only subscribe for a certain amount Apr 25 18:55:27 you know what would be a neat thing for google to push? Apr 25 18:55:35 a way to discover plan features abstractly Apr 25 18:55:43 totally. Apr 25 18:55:50 and automatically populate quota information Apr 25 18:55:59 so the phone itself could be aware of its boundaries and know how close it is to them Apr 25 18:56:06 yup Apr 25 18:56:21 an app like that would be very cool too. that's the sort of practical stuff i'm talking about Apr 25 18:56:37 you could implement parental controls too which people would LOVE YOU for. Apr 25 18:56:39 but i dont think a lot of people would go looking for that sort of thing. Apr 25 18:56:42 thats though...seeing as how so many carriers are setup to allow you to use services without necessarily explaining that you're paying extra (or maybe this is simply a limitation of the phone?) Apr 25 18:56:52 so when it gets close to sms or voice overage, it could alert the parents via e-mail Apr 25 18:57:02 yeah Apr 25 18:57:22 you wouldn't even need it to get the info from the carrier. you could just program the thing with number of sms messages, minutes, etc per month Apr 25 18:57:31 then hook into all that android good-ness to keep running totals and react to them Apr 25 18:57:52 yeah Apr 25 18:58:00 see, why don't people think of shit like this? ugh :) Apr 25 18:58:02 i was thinking with his weather thing. Apr 25 18:58:13 you could like average the number of sms messages over a month. Apr 25 18:58:16 it's so easy to write, yet people waste their time with less useful, more complex apps Apr 25 18:58:26 to try to make sure you have enough left at the end of the month if an alert happens Apr 25 18:59:31 it would be awesome to have an app that right before you make a phone call says like "you have exhausted your minutes for the next 5 days. press ok to proceed." Apr 25 18:59:34 jasta, that is why i said i would write the useful apps for android if no one else does Apr 25 18:59:43 then when the call ends insert an entry in a log that is like "that call cost your broke ass $8." Apr 25 18:59:52 haha Apr 25 18:59:58 lol Apr 25 19:00:22 that would be a useful app, Apr 25 19:00:32 but it would probably be better to have it built into android in the first place. Apr 25 19:00:40 ie in parental controls. Apr 25 19:00:41 like i said, couple it with parental controls and bam, you've got a huge, important product that people will ACTUALLY USE Apr 25 19:00:49 the could be like, you get 200 minutes and you cant override the limit. Apr 25 19:00:54 jasta, i agree Apr 25 19:01:07 and is so simple to write, especially since android exposes so much data Apr 25 19:01:22 that's the type of thinking i want android to embrace Apr 25 19:01:29 yeah Apr 25 19:01:38 but this stupid community so far has completely missed the point Apr 25 19:01:43 * jasta sneers Apr 25 19:01:54 totally Apr 25 19:02:12 that would be a really cool app though Apr 25 19:02:25 Dougie187: and you could write it in like a couple of weeks Apr 25 19:02:37 yeah Apr 25 19:02:52 really polished UI, cover all your bases. it'd be simple for any of us that have a lot of experience with the platform Apr 25 19:03:06 Dougie187: i should reveal my ace in the hole now too Apr 25 19:03:21 oh yeah? Apr 25 19:03:22 i plan to write a small utility app when the challenge is over that will let you mark certain contacts as "secret" Apr 25 19:03:40 and it would collect text messages, call history, etc separate from the main interfaces, hiding it away. Apr 25 19:03:52 for the extra girlfriends? Apr 25 19:03:53 when you produce a gesture on the home screen it will open the secret app to reveal all this data for your secret contacts Apr 25 19:04:05 hehe, for ex-girlfirends and the like that you just can't bring yourself to ignore Apr 25 19:04:11 haha Apr 25 19:04:26 the contact itself would be nowhere in the entire phone. none of this data would be visible to the normal interfaes. Apr 25 19:04:29 interfaces* Apr 25 19:04:40 but a definable gesture on the home screen and bam Apr 25 19:04:59 lol Apr 25 19:05:13 an app for all the sleezeballs? Apr 25 19:05:14 lol Apr 25 19:05:17 i only can't do this app for the challenge because in the unlikely even tthat i won, how would i ever explain what i had done to my girlfriend? :) Apr 25 19:05:18 you should make it so if that person calls you it doesn't ring but displays like a pop up window saying hello Apr 25 19:05:29 michaelnovakjr_1: no, it would do _NOTHING_. Apr 25 19:05:33 haha Apr 25 19:05:43 but how would you know they tried to reach you? Apr 25 19:05:43 the UI would be preempted entirely. no response from a text message or call, expect to log and move on Apr 25 19:05:53 you wouldn't passively. you'd have to periodically check up on them. Apr 25 19:05:59 lol Apr 25 19:06:01 interesting Apr 25 19:06:10 so any decent SO would just ignore it completely? Apr 25 19:06:11 lol Apr 25 19:06:13 so when you have a free moment with the lady not around, you pull it up and think "oh, missed call from Brittany. sweet" Apr 25 19:06:27 haha Apr 25 19:06:39 it would be *awesome* ;) Apr 25 19:06:48 it could even work for e-mails and stuff Apr 25 19:06:56 i still like bluetooth dating Apr 25 19:06:58 haha :) Apr 25 19:07:01 lol Apr 25 19:07:05 fyi, my ex-girlfriend tries to contact me like once every year or so and has done so ever since we stopped dating 5 years ago Apr 25 19:07:17 you could call it your bluetooth wingman Apr 25 19:07:19 and is super flirty and fun about it. very inconvenient ;) Apr 25 19:07:42 haa Apr 25 19:07:46 i like your idea, but i dont like the use. Apr 25 19:07:47 lol Apr 25 19:08:01 i'm just saying, there is a huge market of guys who would use this ;) Apr 25 19:08:02 i think it would be cool in the sense that you could use it to block communications from certain people Apr 25 19:08:21 well right, i have never and would never cheat on my girlfriend Apr 25 19:08:30 and i'd love to have the willpower to just put her number on my block list Apr 25 19:08:42 but i just can't bring myself to. curiousity is the problem. Apr 25 19:08:42 it would be like an easy to manage blocklist Apr 25 19:08:56 yea Apr 25 19:09:02 it's exactly like a high school reunion. you so wish you had the willpower to just shrug it off, but part of you is just too curious how all those retards you grew up with are doing. Apr 25 19:09:14 heh yeah Apr 25 19:09:21 luckily i dont have to go to my 5 year. Apr 25 19:09:24 i have better things to do this year. Apr 25 19:09:45 the point is, it's very useful and satisfies the requirements of even generally upstanding boyfriends :) Apr 25 19:09:59 i'm not gonna cheat on my girlfriend with my ex, hell no. my ex is a train wreck Apr 25 19:10:02 heh Apr 25 19:10:04 true,. Apr 25 19:10:09 but i love it when she texts me every now and then and says all this ridiculous crap Apr 25 19:10:12 i just like it from the standpoint of blacklisting people Apr 25 19:10:13 strokes my ego a bunch, then goes back to her life Apr 25 19:10:33 but i absolutely never, *EVER* want her to call or text or anything while my gf is watching. oh my god that would be disasterous! Apr 25 19:10:39 even if it's really just innoncent curiousity Apr 25 19:10:55 So, here's a question. The android intent api says that we shouldn't register for battery life intents, because we'd get a cubic fuckton of them. Apr 25 19:11:03 How else do we find the battery state? Apr 25 19:12:28 ... the channel goes silent Apr 25 19:12:34 i dont get contacted by any of my ex-girlfriends. Apr 25 19:12:37 but my wife would hate it Apr 25 19:12:37 lol Apr 25 19:12:42 sorry vol_ Apr 25 19:12:46 i dont know much about the android api Apr 25 19:12:49 otherwise i would help. Apr 25 19:15:09 jasta: i might try to write that parental controls app though Apr 25 19:18:58 please do :) Apr 25 19:19:47 keep track of data usage, making sure it doesn't exceed "unlimited" or [insert carriers real cut-off number here] Apr 25 19:20:01 yeah Apr 25 19:20:16 i will have to figure out a lot about the android api though Apr 25 19:20:21 since i know.... nothing... Apr 25 19:20:26 but thats where you all started huh. Apr 25 19:22:27 I'm just hanging out, absorbing info when I glance at the chan every so often. I decided Android is too cool to pass up but I don't know any java, and it is of course not at all similar to my Ruby-only background. I decided I'd better stay up to date though, until I have time to dive in and start learning it. Apr 25 19:23:42 java isnt hard at all Apr 25 19:23:59 yeah Apr 25 19:24:09 http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/index.html Apr 25 19:24:12 start learning :P Apr 25 19:24:39 is ruby OO? Apr 25 19:24:40 It doesn't appear to be, just different. I went through a couple of the android tutorials and spent time playing with code and figured it out alright. Apr 25 19:24:41 yes Apr 25 19:24:48 then you should be good. Apr 25 19:25:19 Yeah, honestly, go grab Eclipse, breeze through the sun java tutorials, and you should pick it right up. Apr 25 19:25:27 yup Apr 25 19:25:32 Eclipse would make it super easy for you Apr 25 19:25:39 of course, i prefer vim. Apr 25 19:25:41 yeah I got eclipse and the android sdk Apr 25 19:25:47 but Eclipse is good for java Apr 25 19:25:53 I use Textmate for ruby but yeah eclipse looks nice for java. Apr 25 19:25:59 really helped me figure out what I was doing Apr 25 19:26:02 yeah Apr 25 19:26:09 it has a lot of useful features. Apr 25 19:26:09 with all the popup documentation and stuff Apr 25 19:26:12 yup Apr 25 19:27:54 I just have a bunch to do at my job right now (where it isn't really appropriate for me to be spending time on learning a lot of unrelated material), and it is of course, cycling season. Its hard to come home and learn new stuff when I'm tuckered out and I have 2 hours until bedtime. Apr 25 19:28:20 heh Apr 25 19:28:25 tou'che Apr 25 19:29:39 A plan I've been considering is to make Android related to work. I'm just not ready yet ;) Apr 25 19:35:22 anyway, i believe it is time to go pick up my wife from work. Apr 25 19:35:25 so i will talk to you all later. Apr 25 19:35:29 Cool. cya. Apr 25 19:35:31 have a good afternoon for now. Apr 25 19:35:32 see ya Apr 25 19:37:52 vol_: one thing I am concerned about is that I have no formal education in programming, which Ruby's hackety-ness allows me to get away with. Whats a good way to build myself a foundation of proper structure, technique, etc? Apr 25 19:38:34 With my style of programming, Eclipse's refactoring tools are a must :) Apr 25 19:40:47 man glib is nice Apr 25 19:41:18 yakischloba: experience is better in that regard than formal education anyway. there is, as far as i can tell, no formal program to teach people how to write sensible, efficient, and maintainable code. Apr 25 19:41:25 that's probably why no one does it ;) Apr 25 19:41:45 but you'll need _lots_ of experience to get it right ;) Apr 25 19:42:35 haha. ok. Apr 25 19:42:42 While that's true, formal education helps you understand certain patterns, understand the importance of writing efficient algorithms ( such as o(nlogn) vs o(n^2) time ) Apr 25 19:43:11 You can probably pick up a bunch from just reading the tutorials though, and wikipedia Apr 25 19:44:13 vol is right. this discipline is well divided along the lines of art and science :) Apr 25 19:47:43 yeah. Sometimes I feel like being taught would be more efficient vs scraping pages. Apr 25 19:48:16 I don't know where I'd start though if I wanted formal education. I dropped out of HS and then dropped out of community college as well. Apr 25 19:48:47 in the absence of college, i would recommend extensive reading. start with the classic bibles, such as those from Knuth and K&R. Apr 25 19:49:31 The Art of Computer Science is nice to read if you feel like devoting a few months Apr 25 19:49:39 do not presume that you can "teach yourself" by just reading examples or wikipedia. that will give you a swiss cheese education. Apr 25 19:49:48 er, the art of computer programming Apr 25 19:50:07 yeah. thats a realization that I came to a long time ago ;) Apr 25 19:50:17 vol_ is referring to one of the bibles I mentioned :) Apr 25 19:50:31 yeah I already googled & bookmarked Apr 25 19:51:55 back to coding Apr 25 19:52:06 thanks for your help. Apr 25 19:52:08 i'm introducing thread safety and thoughtful locking to my server Apr 25 19:52:38 defining behaviours for dealing with an inherently unstable concurrency model: the filesystem ;) Apr 25 20:29:57 anyone here? Apr 25 20:30:11 +o Apr 25 20:32:12 -o Apr 25 20:32:52 ligi: are you from india? Apr 25 20:33:11 jjt001: no old europe Apr 25 20:33:19 ah Apr 25 20:37:14 I'm here too Apr 25 20:46:05 * jasta says a holy prayer and begins implementing gconf support Apr 25 20:46:17 may god forgive me :) Apr 25 20:48:45 RAH PUTAIN Apr 25 20:48:48 un eisenbug @!# Apr 25 20:49:00 oops ^^ Apr 25 20:49:09 did you become german for a second? Apr 25 20:49:24 French :) Apr 25 20:49:28 I forgot an h too Apr 25 20:49:55 oh, heisenbug Apr 25 20:50:07 yes Apr 25 20:50:58 yeah, concurrency's a bitch, huh? :) Apr 25 20:51:08 i enjoy concurrent programming :) Apr 25 20:51:20 i am also extremely crazy Apr 25 20:51:21 jasta: yeah, especially when it happens in a single-threaded piece of code Apr 25 20:51:27 me too, but mostly because it's job security ;P Apr 25 20:51:48 romainguy_: lol. heisenbugs are very rare in single threaded code Apr 25 20:52:20 there are two kinds of heisenbugs Apr 25 20:52:25 the kind that involves a race condition Apr 25 20:52:34 and the other kind, that doesn't happen in debug mode Apr 25 20:52:41 yeah, i know Apr 25 20:52:45 that's the second kind I'm dealing with right now Apr 25 20:52:53 but that type of stuff usually only happens these days when you are working in weird environments that implement their own VMs :) Apr 25 20:53:03 * jasta darts his eyes Apr 25 20:53:05 or in C :) Apr 25 20:53:19 c :) Apr 25 20:54:08 usually you can use code to sniff them out, though. Apr 25 20:54:24 printf debugging sucks, yeah, but it can help you get an idea of where you should be auditing Apr 25 20:54:27 yeah well that's the thing Apr 25 20:54:41 adding the print debugging code makes the bug go away too :)) Apr 25 20:54:50 wow that's a hell of a bug you have ;) Apr 25 20:55:04 i'll go back to my simple coding and leave you to concentrate Apr 25 20:55:24 i'm introducing synchronization in my server so that syncing while it is scanning doesn't explode ;) Apr 25 21:05:27 printf debugging is the best :D Apr 25 21:05:30 i don't really use debuggers Apr 25 21:06:05 debuggers can be very helpful in more complicated situations Apr 25 21:06:58 only place i've used one (and it's been helpful) is debugging a multi-threaded database engine Apr 25 21:08:08 are you freaking kidding me? Apr 25 21:08:29 though you won't agree since you don't know better, you've been wasting a lot of time buddy :) Apr 25 21:09:26 does android have a convenient debugger? Apr 25 21:09:52 in eclipse Apr 25 21:10:18 you can debug android apps in eclipse Apr 25 21:10:23 perhaps i should learn how to use it Apr 25 21:10:31 might save you some time Apr 25 21:10:45 so it's just in the debug perspective huh Apr 25 21:10:47 why add print lines when you don't have to Apr 25 21:10:59 messy code Apr 25 21:11:08 google needs to release google talk for linux. Apr 25 21:13:16 f00f-: you can use any java remote debugger with android using the ddms tool as well Apr 25 21:13:45 i am really floored that you don't know how to use debuggers though. Apr 25 21:14:00 that's literally the firs tthing i explored after hello world in android to make sure that debugging was sensible Apr 25 21:14:32 usually i haven't had a need for them. 95% of the time a few print statements here and there have uncovered lots of bugs,. Apr 25 21:14:41 gdb man. Apr 25 21:14:49 though i dont know if you can use that with java Apr 25 21:15:14 generally i'm a perl/php guy, where i've never needed to debug anything without one or two print's Apr 25 21:15:20 debuggers are usually easier than adding print statements Apr 25 21:15:38 well, hardest part for my is invoking one, since i dont know how :P Apr 25 21:15:40 that tells me one of two things: you've never worked on a big and/or complex project, or you've simply been wasting your time and not realizing it. Apr 25 21:15:57 lol Apr 25 21:16:00 they are pretty easy Apr 25 21:16:03 f00f-: uhm, you've never used perl's debugger either. Apr 25 21:16:04 my god man! Apr 25 21:16:05 i think eclipse has one built in too Apr 25 21:16:15 what can i say, i write nearly bug-free code :X Apr 25 21:16:19 and eclipse's is nice Apr 25 21:16:23 haha Apr 25 21:16:24 bs Apr 25 21:16:31 f00f-: more likely, you just write trivial code. Apr 25 21:16:39 you just write code that has easy to catch bugs in it Apr 25 21:16:46 and you've clearly never been hired to maintain existing code Apr 25 21:17:01 yeah, i try to avoid maintin existing code Apr 25 21:17:04 either that or you were promptly fired for being so damn slow :) Apr 25 21:17:10 hah Apr 25 21:17:13 i'm a big fan of rewrites. Apr 25 21:17:23 but in perl and php? Apr 25 21:17:26 rewriting code that you don't understand how to debug. excellent strategy. Apr 25 21:17:48 :) Apr 25 21:17:52 i'm downright offended. Apr 25 21:18:04 convert some legacy fortran code to c++ and don't use a debugger. Apr 25 21:18:05 lol Apr 25 21:21:15 or dont. Apr 25 21:21:17 thats fine. Apr 25 21:29:24 im out. Apr 25 21:29:28 for now Apr 25 21:29:36 but i will come back and kill another conversation at another time. Apr 25 21:30:34 yea, how can any developer say they write bug free code ? Apr 25 21:30:42 that is just stupid Apr 25 21:41:10 michaelnovakjr_1: because they have an over-elevated opinion of themselves? :) Apr 25 21:41:17 it might be easier to say when all you've written is lame-o web apps :) Apr 25 21:42:14 seriously, i've never met any web developers (we're talking perl or php here) that use debuggers! Apr 25 21:42:49 real men don't Apr 25 21:43:03 I read this article about the early days of the internet... Apr 25 21:43:27 some of the guys were pretty good at listening to the traffic going over phone lines and figuring out problems Apr 25 21:43:38 so they got one of these guys to listen in on a problem line Apr 25 21:44:20 and the call starts...ring ring... "Hello? Hey Ethel, it's that jackass with the whistle again!" Apr 25 21:47:58 i met that jackass with the whistle. Apr 25 21:48:31 John Draper Apr 25 21:48:45 he's a kooky old man. Apr 25 21:53:26 i mean *really* kooky ;) Apr 25 22:14:20 he sure looks like it these days. Apr 25 23:57:39 jtoy: hola Apr 25 23:58:19 hi jjt001 Apr 26 00:03:10 have you gotten any hits yet? Apr 26 00:03:13 judges? Apr 26 00:03:21 you're paranoid dude :) Apr 26 00:03:35 i know. i wish i wasn't Apr 26 00:03:49 jasta: still none? Apr 26 00:04:49 nope Apr 26 00:04:54 weird Apr 26 00:04:56 they each have 80 apps to go through Apr 26 00:05:01 that's quite a lot, really Apr 26 00:05:13 more than a day's work :) Apr 26 00:05:24 but if a lot of those apps clearly suck... Apr 26 00:05:30 and i'm sure lots of them are hard to figure out :) Apr 26 00:05:45 if that's the case, then they're bad apps Apr 26 00:05:49 jjt001: they have to judge them all fairly though. they'll read the README, etc. Apr 26 00:05:59 good mobile apps are intuitive Apr 26 00:06:02 agreed Apr 26 00:06:09 yes, and that is one judging criteria. Apr 26 00:06:11 not the only one. Apr 26 00:07:00 ya, i guess apps which aren't so intuitive but have great ideas can be easily fixed Apr 26 00:07:06 so they probably will win anyway Apr 26 00:07:22 morrildl: hello Apr 26 00:08:26 jasta: i'm trying to work on gwt Apr 26 00:08:30 think it's a good project? Apr 26 00:12:20 what does my opinion matter? Apr 26 00:17:12 jasta: you might have some experience? Apr 26 00:19:20 yes, and therefore an opinion, but why does it matter? :) Apr 26 00:19:33 what if i didn't like it but you did? Apr 26 00:19:47 lol Apr 26 00:20:38 heh Apr 26 00:20:46 but seriuos Apr 26 00:20:53 i am being serious Apr 26 00:20:59 i'm looking for your opinion Apr 26 00:21:04 or anyone else's opinion Apr 26 00:21:17 more importantly, what's *your* opinion? Apr 26 00:21:31 i think it's interesting Apr 26 00:21:39 then it seems like a good project for you to work on Apr 26 00:21:43 right? :) Apr 26 00:21:47 true? Apr 26 00:22:19 * jasta rolls his eyes Apr 26 00:22:19 true* Apr 26 00:33:01 jjt001: but if a lot of those apps clearly suck... << and if a lot don't... :)) Apr 26 00:35:19 i'd think a lot of apps are of high-caliber Apr 26 00:35:27 i believe the judges will have a tough time deciding Apr 26 00:37:35 So how is everyone doing tonight? Apr 26 00:41:49 f00f-: i don't think there are many good ones Apr 26 00:42:10 i have seen around 200 or so submissions Apr 26 00:42:18 or am aware of them Apr 26 00:42:20 what about the rest? Apr 26 00:42:29 they could be anything! Apr 26 00:42:35 i believe i heard from someone at google they aren't that impressed Apr 26 00:44:10 oh really... Apr 26 00:44:15 i guess that's good news, in a way Apr 26 00:44:26 but it depends on how many submissions they have looked at :) Apr 26 00:44:54 michaelnovakjr: you're just quoting jasta earlier on Apr 26 00:46:58 caught red handed! Apr 26 00:49:20 lol Apr 26 00:50:00 michaelnovakjr: i dont know if you read but after jasta said that morrildl said that he has never heard that, from any of the 5 people who have seen all the submissions Apr 26 00:53:31 haha Apr 26 01:24:15 romainguy: hello Apr 26 01:24:23 how's your development a google doing? Apr 26 01:24:29 yo Apr 26 01:24:32 great Apr 26 01:24:39 keeps me very busy :) Apr 26 01:25:00 you at the hq right now? Apr 26 01:25:03 or do you work from home? Apr 26 01:25:07 neither Apr 26 01:25:09 I am in the shuttle Apr 26 01:25:25 what? how are you connecting to the internet Apr 26 01:25:34 with wifi Apr 26 01:25:41 there's wifi in the shuttle Apr 26 01:25:51 oh, this is an internal shuttle Apr 26 01:25:58 The public transportation here has wifi on it. Apr 26 01:26:06 so do the McDonalds Apr 26 01:26:09 ah right Apr 26 01:26:09 jjt001: yes, it's a google shuttle Apr 26 01:26:14 I'm going back to San Francisco Apr 26 01:26:17 the shuttles in india Apr 26 01:26:35 interesting Apr 26 01:27:00 ok, i see, the bus connects to cell phone network, connection distributed over wifi Apr 26 01:27:09 it's free? Apr 26 01:27:20 paid by GOOG :D Apr 26 01:27:22 the Google shuttle? yes, for Google employee Apr 26 01:27:31 maybe we should tailgate the shuttle, and get free wifi Apr 26 01:27:34 unless it's encrypted :X Apr 26 01:27:37 lol Apr 26 01:27:38 it is :) Apr 26 01:27:40 dude, GOOG has been plummeting lately Apr 26 01:27:54 along with the rest of the market Apr 26 01:28:06 solar power Apr 26 01:28:06 jjt001: it's a lot higher than when I joined a year Apr 26 01:28:07 nope Apr 26 01:28:09 +ago Apr 26 01:28:16 agreed Apr 26 01:28:25 yeah, i pulled out before 07 Apr 26 01:28:25 there's just been a spike at the end of 2007 Apr 26 01:28:31 i might buy again Apr 26 01:28:54 romainguy: you know anything about gwt? Apr 26 01:29:03 just a little Apr 26 01:29:11 it's web stuff, so I'm not very interested :) Apr 26 01:29:22 what's your field of interest? Apr 26 01:29:26 i'm a gwt guy... not with google though Apr 26 01:29:26 gui design? Apr 26 01:29:36 yes, GUI design Apr 26 01:29:41 and programming Apr 26 01:29:58 i personally find gui design tedious Apr 26 01:30:08 well i guess you mean the design of the actual widgets... Apr 26 01:30:13 not necessarily Apr 26 01:30:19 also design of applications Apr 26 01:30:38 so far my jobs have been either to write GUI toolkits Apr 26 01:30:38 you working on stuff other than android? Apr 26 01:30:42 or mak applications look great Apr 26 01:30:45 or both Apr 26 01:30:48 not at the moment Apr 26 01:31:01 although I should come up with demos for my presentation at JavaOne in two weeks Apr 26 01:31:14 so you're working on the actual libraries (like swing, for instance) Apr 26 01:31:36 or on applications Apr 26 01:31:39 I've done both Apr 26 01:31:49 that's cool Apr 26 01:31:53 right now I just work on Android's UI toolkit, not the apps Apr 26 01:31:58 (well except Home) Apr 26 01:32:06 do you have a prototype device? Apr 26 01:32:18 I do Apr 26 01:32:26 awesome Apr 26 01:32:35 you know when they're coming out? Apr 26 01:32:39 .... Apr 26 01:32:51 :) Apr 26 01:33:12 i see Apr 26 01:33:18 how it is Apr 26 01:33:33 so do you know how i could reach morrill? Apr 26 01:33:40 lol Apr 26 01:33:45 i been trying to communicate with him here Apr 26 01:33:48 on the mailing list Apr 26 01:33:49 yes, right here Apr 26 01:33:57 what do you want to know? Apr 26 01:34:15 my server lost power during the time that a judge connected to my machine Apr 26 01:34:50 i was going to ask him about that Apr 26 01:34:59 to see if he could contact the judge Apr 26 01:36:12 do people at google have nerf gun wars? Apr 26 01:37:00 romainguy: you still here? Apr 26 01:37:03 yes Apr 26 01:38:00 do you know what times morrill is free to talk? Apr 26 01:38:09 it depends Apr 26 01:38:14 he's here during the day Apr 26 01:38:17 sometimes in the evening Apr 26 01:38:43 yeah, i've tried almost all of those times Apr 26 01:38:49 i tried sending him a pm as well Apr 26 01:40:30 i guess he is unhappy Apr 26 01:42:57 seems so :) Apr 26 01:44:37 Hey Romainguy. do you talk with the people who make google talk? Apr 26 01:45:11 I don't know them, why? Apr 26 01:45:23 i was going to say. You need to tell them to port it to linux. Apr 26 01:45:34 i think i wrote them an email a while back. but they havent said anything. Apr 26 01:45:35 google talk isn't open source? Apr 26 01:45:41 i dont think so? Apr 26 01:45:48 i know there isnt a linux version though Apr 26 01:46:03 it works through pidgin, but you dont get the VOIP-ish feature. Apr 26 01:46:42 there is a gaim port Apr 26 01:46:44 that enables this Apr 26 01:46:55 ohhh Apr 26 01:46:58 gaimvoip or something Apr 26 01:47:02 is there a plugin for pidgin? Apr 26 01:47:08 since pidgin and gaim are like the same thing. Apr 26 01:47:13 apparently there was talk of merging it back to pidgin, but i havent really followed up Apr 26 01:47:31 i think it might have been for gaim 1.x ? not sure... Apr 26 01:47:44 gaim with libjingle or something Apr 26 01:50:20 got another hit on my app Apr 26 01:50:30 oh! Apr 26 01:50:36 let's see Apr 26 01:50:58 i wonder how maemo does it. Apr 26 01:51:08 google talk is just jabber i thought Apr 26 01:51:12 it is Apr 26 01:51:14 plus jingle Apr 26 01:51:19 for A/V signaling Apr 26 01:51:29 'negotiation' rather Apr 26 01:52:05 it's even published as an XEP Apr 26 01:52:09 at www.xmpp.org Apr 26 01:54:24 i can't wait to see my first access_log hit Apr 26 01:55:06 had two so far Apr 26 02:00:44 xmpp.org doesnt seem to have anything that helps. Apr 26 02:03:20 yeah, just the specs Apr 26 02:03:30 heh Apr 26 02:09:37 http://code.google.com/apis/talk/jep_extensions/extensions.html Apr 26 02:26:19 It seems like its not going to happen until the extensions become part of XMPP Apr 26 02:26:57 i thought they were a draft? Apr 26 02:27:54 it says they are trying to get them added into XMPP. Apr 26 02:27:57 but ionno Apr 26 02:28:10 it's been a year Apr 26 02:28:14 or more Apr 26 02:28:19 not much demand as far as i can see Apr 26 02:28:25 or no takers Apr 26 02:28:28 for pidgin, at least Apr 26 02:28:29 i demand it. Apr 26 02:28:29 lol **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Apr 26 02:59:57 2008