**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon May 19 02:59:57 2008 May 19 10:47:56 this place is quiet May 19 11:30:46 no u8 May 19 12:30:09 Whats todays smack down? May 19 12:30:41 your mom May 19 12:34:16 ohh May 19 12:34:21 nice one volmarias May 19 12:34:31 you been working on that since friday night? May 19 12:39:35 yes :( May 19 12:50:06 its alright May 19 12:50:08 dont worry about it. May 19 12:50:20 im sure some people in here had more depressing weekends. May 19 12:50:21 heh May 19 12:56:35 yeah, my weekend was pretty nice on the whole May 19 12:56:58 nice May 19 12:57:21 were you here for the smack down on friday? May 19 12:59:43 no May 19 12:59:50 I went home and had sex May 19 12:59:55 it was a more productive friday night May 19 13:01:29 lol May 19 14:53:47 volmarias: more reproductive amirite May 19 15:52:22 yawn May 19 15:54:03 yawn back May 19 15:54:07 hows it going jasta? May 19 15:55:26 good May 19 15:55:33 it was a beautiful weekend in Seattle May 19 15:55:41 85 degrees every day May 19 15:56:10 went for a hike on sunday May 19 15:56:58 nice May 19 15:59:43 they finally finished fixing my laptop May 19 15:59:51 they shipped it on saturday. so im expecting it soon May 19 16:01:57 the weather man predicted it would rain on sunday and all through this week, but so far, it is still gorgeous May 19 16:02:30 tyipcally you should plan for the opposite of what weathermen predict May 19 16:02:48 only job where you can be right only half the time and be considered great at what you do hehe May 19 16:06:15 yo May 19 16:06:29 morning May 19 16:28:10 * cutmasta is away (away) May 19 17:17:55 tomgibara: you're english yeah? You should attend the Android meetup on meetup.com May 19 17:21:51 tomgibara: I should say, As you are English and I presume you are in England, I'd like to inform you of the regular Android meetup in London. That makes more grammatical sense. May 19 17:22:53 chomchom: Actually, Kevin had already taken the time to let me know about it. May 19 17:23:04 It's just a case of finding the time :-( May 19 17:23:17 do you attend? May 19 17:29:30 yawn May 19 17:36:26 how come your always tired jasta? May 19 17:43:19 Kraln: u r rite May 19 17:45:08 Dougie187: i don't know. May 19 18:21:04 sleepless in seattle... May 19 18:21:07 suicidal in seattle? May 19 18:21:53 i've always thought of seattle as sf bay area 1.5 May 19 18:21:58 and vancouver as bay area 2.0 May 19 18:22:04 but never had a chance to confirm :/ May 19 18:24:34 vancouver is great May 19 18:25:04 but yes, both are much better than the bay area ;) May 19 18:25:42 except for the weather May 19 18:26:31 random components on my goddamn pc keep crashing May 19 18:26:48 it's starting to get annoying May 19 18:27:12 you know what else bugs me about washington, is that it's *all* trees. going up the Willamette valley, it's still nice and open: flat areas are free of trees. Going on up 5 into washington, it starts to feel like everything is trees and it makes me a bit "claustrophobic" May 19 18:27:25 (ok, talking about the western half, but still) May 19 18:28:56 well they cut down half of oregon already May 19 18:29:00 and it's pretty ugly May 19 18:29:07 you dont want the land bare naked May 19 18:29:19 that's what nevada is for. May 19 18:29:26 exactly May 19 18:29:38 hi all a quick Q is there or will there be a way of installing android on an SPV M2000 May 19 18:31:05 I have one handy and am telling my customer to wait with there upgrade for android to come out but would be kewl to have somthing to show them May 19 18:34:36 officially, there is no support for anything and no promises May 19 18:34:47 don't put any money down on future supported devices May 19 18:55:55 <[sol]> f00f-: with nicolas cage in bed? :) May 19 18:56:19 <[sol]> [20:21:04] sleepless in seattle... May 19 18:56:22 oh haha May 19 18:56:26 i dont know if i've seen that one May 19 18:56:36 but if i would have, that's not how i would remember it ;) May 19 18:59:07 <[sol]> f00f-: ;) sorry, i have crazy humor\ ;) May 19 18:59:17 :D May 19 19:12:18 yawn May 19 19:12:22 err, hiccup May 19 19:22:30 lol May 19 19:25:31 On the SDK releases: http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/msg/a0fc9ad2489513f2 May 19 19:25:37 if anyone's curious May 19 19:25:42 just my ranting May 19 19:27:40 i am beginning to get extremely frustrated with this. the list of questions against this platform is mounting and google's silence is beginning to concern me. May 19 19:28:02 i can no longer commit to an unjustified belief that Google will just do the right thing and make it work. May 19 19:29:01 I fucking hope they make it work, or it's back to j2me for me. May 19 19:29:57 I suppose what concerns me most of all is that we are in it half way here. The platform has been out for 6 months, and we have only seen 2 significant releases of the SDK, followed up with almost no concrete details of long term plans or strategy. May 19 19:30:24 The crop of ADC apps was not sufficiently impressive to carry the platform, and so it all falls on the OHA. May 19 19:30:54 There are still so many unknowns as to what we, the developers, have to work with and the lack of SDK releases is very troubling. May 19 19:30:56 I saw several that were very impressive. May 19 19:31:28 volmarias: sufficient to carry the platform? Surely not. May 19 19:31:38 and you think google isn't making anything themselves? May 19 19:31:47 you think the half-assed version of gmaps they've put in the sdk is it? May 19 19:32:12 volmarias: Of course I know they are making apps themselves. My concern is the faith that they are demanding. May 19 19:32:13 they're putting out the obvious, they're looking for the innovative, clever, and unthought of via adc May 19 19:32:30 Google should be showing us what they're doing, demonstrating it for us, giving us long term details, a simple road map. May 19 19:32:37 why? May 19 19:32:43 what do they owe you May 19 19:32:53 Because they are asking for a big commitment from us without yielding to the demands we would have. May 19 19:33:11 and this makes them different from any other company... how? May 19 19:33:38 Even Apple has made more progress with their SDK than Google :) May 19 19:34:00 yeah, hope you like objective C and the inability to do anything useful lest you be sued May 19 19:34:41 Please stay focused on my point. May 19 19:34:50 fine. May 19 19:34:55 Google is beginning to cross into an unreasonable territory. May 19 19:35:07 your complaint is that google hasn't come out with another sdk in a while, and won't explicitly create a timeline. May 19 19:35:14 ok. May 19 19:35:21 They have gotten a lot of work out of this community based on the faithful assumption that Google will be able to carry the platform in the direction we all imagine it should be. May 19 19:35:26 if you need to put food on the table, I guess you'd better find another job May 19 19:35:42 But as the deadlines are approaching, and details, code updates, etc remain scarce, it might be time to start questioning their long term plan. May 19 19:36:22 so, actually, since I'm a newcomer May 19 19:36:28 how many versions of the sdk have they put out May 19 19:36:37 aside from "oh shit typo there" hotfixes released a day after an rc May 19 19:36:48 I for one have not worked on the Android component of my project since just shortly after the round 1 deadline in April. May 19 19:36:55 volmarias: 2 significant releases, including the very first one in November. May 19 19:37:01 ok. May 19 19:37:05 so they put out m3, and m5. May 19 19:37:16 this doesn't sound a lot like "release early and often" May 19 19:37:18 Yes, and M5 has a laundry list of critical bugs filed against it. May 19 19:37:45 and I doubt they've been ignored. May 19 19:37:51 For example, my application crashes inside the emulator if I try to investigate lcoal variables in certain contexts. The bug was confirmed, and scheduled to be fixed in the next SDK. May 19 19:38:33 The MediaPlayer crashes, does not correctly support Ogg Vorbis as indicated, streaming support is very broken, etc. May 19 19:38:45 There is no Bluetooth support, no decent simulation of the camera, GPS, etc. May 19 19:38:55 i put in a few bluetooth reqs May 19 19:39:06 And we are less than 7 months from commercial launch? "Uh-oh" is my complaint. May 19 19:39:27 "oh by the way" May 19 19:39:29 With no official statement out of Google, I am left assumin they are scrambling, way off schedule, etc. May 19 19:39:36 assuming* May 19 19:40:01 I dunno. May 19 19:40:03 It is very difficult to me to trust that they have everything in order at this point. 6 months ago it was much easier to assume that. May 19 19:40:17 I guess you'll have to wait and see May 19 19:40:26 but if you want a safe platform, well, the iphone sdk is there as you mentioned May 19 19:40:53 volmarias: I want what I hoped Android to be. May 19 19:41:08 That's why I picked it and slaved for 5 months on a project for it. May 19 19:41:14 But I must admit, I am concerned. May 19 19:42:13 I am currently feeling like moving away from the Android component of my project until more details are revealed, an SDK update which fixes the critical bugs that my project faces, etc. May 19 19:42:36 it'll be done, lots of stuff coming up May 19 19:42:40 Because as I said, I can no longer move on this platform based on faith alone. May 19 19:43:22 please continue to do so. faith is all you have. May 19 19:43:49 Well, except that I have a pile of functional code, an emulator, etc. Faith is not all I have. May 19 19:45:44 I especially find writing code against the current SDK pointless as we have been promised that breakage is in store for us. May 19 19:45:58 My basic architecture has to be reowrked once the MediaPlayer becomes functional and as it should be. May 19 19:46:27 My layouts need to be reworked and encapsulated, activity history and flow needs to be redone, etc. These are things that seem pointless to try now. May 19 19:46:29 price you pay for early adoption :( May 19 19:46:43 I had assumed that early adoption would not be met with stagnated releases. May 19 19:46:54 That is what I am saying: Google is not doing their part, and it's frankly starting to piss me off. May 19 19:47:06 They want early adopters, then they should release more than once every 3 months. May 19 19:47:41 yeah i guess May 19 19:47:46 let's bring it up at google i/o May 19 19:47:57 There is a bug right now that requires a maintainer edit a file in their SDK installation before the build can work. That is ridiculous. May 19 19:48:12 Has anyone at Google heard of branching? Why not branch and release bug fixes like that? May 19 19:48:29 that way we don't have to be quite so frustrated. May 19 19:49:54 i think they release once every 3 months just because of the adc. May 19 19:51:53 Yeah, which is why we all expected a release Apr 14th or thereabouts. May 19 19:52:13 It is more than a month later than most of us thought it would be and still nothing. No comment on it coming soon? So, what, June 30th or thereabouts? May 19 19:52:37 So, almost 5 months past the last significant release for a platform that is "right around the corner"? May 19 19:52:48 None of these scenarios look very good. May 19 19:53:19 thats what i would guess. May 19 19:53:22 june 30th May 19 19:55:15 well, ask away at i/o May 19 19:55:22 I wish I could go, but we're not really committed to android yet May 19 19:56:49 i'm going to kidnap Dan May 19 19:57:24 lol May 19 19:57:37 kidnap him and hold him for ransom, random being release of the SDK May 19 19:59:14 hopefully they want him back May 19 20:05:02 I'm guessing a few weeks after the contest May 19 20:09:59 hey, have you guy's seen the psychological damage that ADC 1 caused developers all over the world? May 19 20:28:44 ha May 19 20:28:54 my friend sent in an awful app that was barely functional May 19 20:29:00 he was ranked 50-75% in completeness May 19 20:29:09 and by "barely functional" I mean "really not at all" May 19 20:29:19 I don't think it's going to bust too many egos May 19 20:39:26 yeah, I think that 75-100 meant "doesn't work" or "actively harmful, such as a virus" May 19 20:40:03 * cutmasta is away (away) May 19 20:47:33 http://www.helloandroid.com/node/572 May 19 20:49:15 volmarias: completeness wasn't a category? May 19 20:51:02 zhobbs_: oh my god are you freaking kidding me? May 19 20:51:21 that is appalling behaviour. May 19 20:51:56 the next version is coming in the "next several months"? May 19 20:52:05 yuck! May 19 20:52:21 If I can get positive confirmation of that at Google I/O, I am officially discontinuining my Android component until such time. May 19 20:53:00 dims: did you read the whole thing? Google is offereing special releases to the winners and not the general public? That is perhaps the worst possible decision they could make. May 19 20:53:12 Due to "instability and bugs". Uhm, hello, M3 and M5 are full of fucking bugs. May 19 20:53:30 this is totally sad! May 19 20:55:27 if it's because it's not stable then why the NDA? May 19 20:55:31 Does Google assume that if you didn't win the ADC that you won't want to still compete for market share on a real phone!? May 19 20:56:21 I just got fired up to go to I/O next week and harrass these idiots. May 19 20:56:43 well May 19 20:56:46 there will be a release May 19 20:56:49 harass*, I'm so mad I can't spell May 19 20:56:50 for general developers May 19 20:57:05 but from my understanding it's for the best May 19 20:57:07 it'll be bug ridden May 19 20:57:12 and i am not looking forward to sdk migrations May 19 20:57:12 f00f-: According to Zach and his source, in the "next several months". May 19 20:57:22 all of their releases have been bug ridden. May 19 20:57:30 well ADC I.2 is due end july May 19 21:01:37 I actually think that they don't want people to see the new SDK until they unveal the phone May 19 21:01:42 f00f-: This is actively penalizing applications which did not win. Putting us at a great disadvantage to continue to develop our applications in preparation for the official launch of the platform. May 19 21:05:40 jasta: I'm guessing that Google's android team have made the decision to divert all manpower away from anything that is not necessary for completing the platform to sufficient degree that they can hand it over to the phone manufactures. May 19 21:06:38 They probably judge the injury to developer community sentiment is less damaging to the success of the platform than any delays they might accrue in supporting more releases. May 19 21:07:49 In other words, they are rushing a product which will not be as well tested or feature rich? Cute. Do I even want an Android phone, then? May 19 21:08:57 I am wishing that 5 months ago someone from Google came out and said "If you aren't in it for the money, and genuinely like the open source process, Android is not for you." May 19 21:09:09 I don't think its fair to necessarily characterize it as rushing, the 50 winning teams will presumably continue to provide feedback on the SDK (or perhaps not if they can't use the public issue tracker). May 19 21:09:11 I would not have wasted my fucking time May 19 21:10:45 Also, don't forget that Google may have many internal teams and teams in the OHA developing on newer versions of the SDK and providing feedback. May 19 21:10:56 I can understand the frusration. May 19 21:12:28 The lack of public statements providing any sense of a pre-release roadmap is aggravating to professionally minded software developers, and doesn't really seem necessary. May 19 21:13:01 It's aggravating to everyone. There is no reason to narrow the group. May 19 21:13:24 Open source developers, such as myself, are used to "open source" projects such as this one not being quite so mysterious and back-handed. May 19 21:13:59 By professionally minded I basically meant programmers who have high standards. May 19 21:14:45 If that post turns out to be entirely true, and that the next public release may be much closer to handset launch, I will just give up on this platform. May 19 21:14:52 Not the sort of programmers who knock out a quick app just to make some quick cash. May 19 21:14:57 But you're right, it's probably aggravating to everyone. May 19 21:15:34 What if the choice was that you had monthly releases, but the launch was so badly delayed that the platform sank? May 19 21:15:41 We have no choice but to give up. We can't continue to develop on a platform that has so many bugs and features taht we know to be substantially different in another "secret" branch of the code. May 19 21:16:12 tomgibara: The launch could be delayed by well over a year and it would not be unusual for this industry. May 19 21:16:59 jasta: I just think that decisions always look very simple on the outside. May 19 21:17:27 Still, all this would boil down to miserably poor planning. Either they intended it ot be this way, and shame on them, or they are way behind schedule. May 19 21:17:50 Again, what I most agree with is that the silence is very irritating for those of us who are genuinely interested in developing for the platform. May 19 21:18:10 tomgibara: The bottom line is, developers who lost the ADC will be forced to significantly delay their applications. We are no long early adopters. May 19 21:18:15 We are left by the wayside. May 19 21:18:18 ...or Apple wrong footed them with the iPhone, or something else? May 19 21:18:43 jasta May 19 21:18:44 dude May 19 21:18:51 1.5 month delay May 19 21:18:55 is that going to hurt that much? May 19 21:19:19 f00f-: 1.5 month? According to Zach and his source, the next public release is to be "several months away" May 19 21:19:25 1.5 months* May 19 21:19:41 it's wrong May 19 21:19:49 Even if it was released the day after the challenge, now that it has been extended, that's 2 1/2 months. May 19 21:20:01 f00f: The problem as I see it is that Google aren't giving any timeframes. How can we develop for a platform that we cannot plan our time for? May 19 21:20:06 f00f-: How do you know that it's wrong? May 19 21:20:27 yeah, dude, just trust them, they're opening an early access official SDK May 19 21:20:36 they can't afford to make rapid release anymore May 19 21:20:40 now that launch time is close May 19 21:21:01 not that they ever did early&often releases May 19 21:21:03 you mean, ever? they have never made rapid releases. May 19 21:21:19 They have fucked the release cycle for this entire project, and now we're supposed to accept it getting even worse? May 19 21:21:39 tomgibara: i guess the only thing all of us have going for is T-Mobile's eagerness by 4Q 2008 May 19 21:21:40 lol, my girlfriend just sent me an e-mail and said not to get too drunk at I/O and try to start a fight with a Google engineer May 19 21:21:53 jasta: au contraire.... :P May 19 21:23:09 you have a girlfriend? is she imaginary? May 19 21:24:08 f00f: To plan properly to develop apps for release we need much more information than the expected date of a first device May 19 21:27:12 jasta: things will get better when all the code is out there and we can just grab the latest from svn... May 19 21:27:51 zhobbs: I think that's irrelevant when the devices have already shipped with a different version of the code May 19 21:28:32 zhobbs: I had hoped to have my application ready by the launch of the platform onto real handsets. May 19 21:28:37 It sounds like Google had something else in mind. May 19 21:28:53 That somehow being an early adopter means nothing. I wish they would have cautioned us. May 19 21:29:09 I'm just saying, it's not a reason to give up...it's a reason to get pissed sure, but in the long term I have hopes of Android actually being an open platform May 19 21:29:24 How is it not a reason? May 19 21:29:45 How can I possibly continue with an SDK that deviates substantially from what will be available at the end of the year? May 19 21:30:24 I wonder if Google can actually require that the participants sign an NDA to continue on to the next round of the challenge. Do the official terms provide for this case? May 19 21:30:41 If not, then you could reasonably refuse and you would still be eligible to participate according to the original rules. May 19 21:30:48 And you could just unravel Google's pathetic plan May 19 21:31:03 jasta: you may be to able to refuse and just submit for M5 May 19 21:31:41 Essentially, you entered a contract with Google by entering your app. The contract terms are publicly available, and may or may not provid ethem with the right to enforce you to sign an NDA. May 19 21:33:19 Well, whatever. I will try to confirm all of this at I/O. May 19 21:34:48 No point getting upset if it's either false, or they change their mind quickly May 19 21:35:09 well, it's not false May 19 21:35:33 How would I know that? May 19 21:35:51 you don't May 19 21:35:53 So far, I'm basing my rant on information from a source you have, as reported through you. May 19 21:36:04 That type of information I generally try not to regard as authoritative, if that's OK with you. May 19 21:37:35 you saying helloandroid isn't a credible news source? :) May 19 21:52:26 jasta: i believe the terms dont provide for this May 19 21:52:35 so hence a lawsuit could be lodged with the proper motivation May 19 21:54:23 I do hope that someone challenges them on this May 19 21:54:53 Though I doubt any of the 50 will, since they are in a position to benefit from it. May 19 21:54:58 no one will...all 50 are happy they're getting a new SDK May 19 21:55:01 At the expense of their competition May 19 21:56:16 What a mess. I am so conflicted... May 19 22:17:05 sleep time May 19 22:24:12 wow... that was a nice little rant and read May 19 22:24:24 :) May 19 22:24:55 that news will probably piss a lot of people off May 19 22:28:35 zhobbs: i can't imagine anyone outside of the top 50 finding this an acceptable decision from Google May 19 22:28:48 especially since they haven't said anything officially May 19 22:30:59 jasta: yeah, I wouldn't be happy about it May 19 22:40:12 jasta: what's going on? May 19 22:40:30 Kraln: Google is giving the ADC winners updates to the SDK, but the rest of us have to wait "several months". May 19 22:40:46 probably until the platform launches, and source is opened. May 19 22:41:17 well May 19 22:41:24 all that makes me want to do is develop for blackberry May 19 22:41:28 and I suggest you do the same. May 19 22:41:52 what? May 19 22:41:53 well one thing is for sure, it makes me want to give a big "FUCK YOU" to Google and drop Android. May 19 22:42:10 funny thing about blackberry is that all of their handsets already support everything that android does May 19 22:42:10 where is this top 50 annoucement? May 19 22:42:14 i spent a lot of fucking time on this ADC thing. May 19 22:42:18 rhett: see helloandroid.com May 19 22:42:45 rhett: i'm just waiting on official confirmation of this from Dan or whomever May 19 22:42:56 and if i don't get it here, i am going to hound them at I/O May 19 22:43:43 what makes absolutely no sense is why they can't at least maintain two separate branches, and just send down the critical changes we need to keep moving May 19 22:43:47 bug fixes, API changes, etc. May 19 22:43:51 yeah, that sucks May 19 22:44:28 their official reasoning is bullshit too. they are protecting us from unstable code? yeah fucking right, they have so far fed us nothing but unstable code. May 19 22:44:53 they just dont' want to release it to everyone, because it isn't ready, and they don't want to deal with the unwashed masses bitching about it May 19 22:45:05 i mean, have you seen the forum? it's full of whiners May 19 22:45:29 android-challenge has always been drivel May 19 22:45:42 android-developers has always been much better. May 19 22:45:59 regardless, if this all turns out to be true, they just simply duped us. May 19 22:46:11 got us together to develop against a platform they were just going to take away if we lost May 19 22:46:21 it's unbelievably May 19 22:46:23 unbelievable* May 19 22:46:41 i don't recall reading in the terms of teh challenge that failure to qualify means you get to take a hike May 19 22:47:15 i read something in the terms that basically said google can do whatever it wants May 19 22:47:39 well of course they can do whatever they want. May 19 22:47:47 They could drop Android tomorrow. May 19 22:48:29 We have the right to be upset if they make decisions which we feel are beneficial to no one. May 19 22:48:55 i think it benefits google for sure May 19 22:48:59 this decision May 19 22:49:17 this experience makes me wonder what Google plans to do when the platform is open sourced too. what sort of insane things will they be pulling with the OHA to keep it in their control still? May 19 22:49:30 rhett: how? it substantially restricts the software that will be available at launch May 19 22:50:22 have you seen the whiners on the forum? Developers of the 50 winning apps are much better than the average android developer for sure May 19 22:50:43 and there are about 50x total developers compared to the number of winners May 19 22:51:05 so google doesn't have to spend all the mainpower dealing with bug reports from shitty whiney programmers if they do it this way May 19 22:51:59 it gives the developers something to do too, I mean, they're going to pay out a lot of money to the top 20 May 19 22:52:38 rhett: Google has no direct obligation to respond to either the general public, or the ADC winners. May 19 22:52:41 They're also saying, we want to get our money's worth, so we're extending the deadline May 19 22:53:00 That said, they could just as easily have set up a special issue list for the ADC winners. May 19 22:53:13 None of this requires not only separate releases, but *NO* releases to the general public. May 19 22:53:22 Which means we can't get bug fixes, API changes, etc. May 19 22:53:27 We essentially can't write Android software. May 19 22:53:53 google has made a choice to support the top 50 developers for sure May 19 22:54:03 they get free tickets to the conference etc. May 19 22:54:13 Uhh, I got a free ticket to the conference too. May 19 22:54:17 They gave those out ages ago. May 19 22:54:18 really, how? May 19 22:54:20 haha May 19 22:54:24 oh i saw it was like $400 May 19 22:54:29 Seriously, I had mine 3 months ago. May 19 22:54:35 where did you see that? May 19 22:54:51 I was e-mailed, along with many other active developers on the forums, and in this channel. May 19 22:54:52 oh that sucks, when is that confrence? May 19 22:54:56 was it last weekend? May 19 22:54:57 next week May 19 22:55:01 hmm May 19 22:55:05 I'm going, primarily because I was invited for free. May 19 22:55:07 maybe we could still ask May 19 23:45:35 rhett: ask? no no no, i am going to kidnap Dan at I/O. May 19 23:46:09 i just sent a polite request to google-io, no hard feelings if they don't want to let me in for free May 20 01:42:10 hey, i have 1 question, how possible would it be to port existing linux apps in c++ or c to android? May 20 01:42:50 well, that depends on how they were written May 20 01:43:04 if you can easily separate the UI from the portable parts, you could just compile the C straight onto Android May 20 01:43:12 then bind the UI parts with Java and JNI May 20 01:43:16 what about command line stuff May 20 01:43:33 command-line stuff you could just build now, but of course Android currently has no shell available on the phone interface. May 20 01:43:34 would adding a bash shell of busybox bloat it too much>=? May 20 01:44:00 i doubt something like that would be put onto a real handset as distributed by one of the major manufacturers, but sure, you could do that yourself. May 20 01:44:32 oo goody, mabi, when the real thing comes out I will do this May 20 01:44:48 I really want something that I could do that w/, thanks May 20 01:44:50 bibi May 20 01:47:06 http://www.helloandroid.com/node/572 May 20 02:27:04 so that for real? May 20 02:27:16 if so that really @%$#@$#% sucks. May 20 02:51:18 yo May 20 02:52:01 sup May 20 02:57:09 tired :) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue May 20 02:59:56 2008