**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue May 20 02:59:56 2008
May 20 03:45:30 <michaelnovakjr> this sdk business is bull
May 20 03:51:02 <dmoffett_> Is sdk rumour true?
May 20 03:51:40 <michaelnovakjr> seems like it
May 20 03:51:48 <michaelnovakjr> if so my development stops shere
May 20 03:52:04 <michaelnovakjr> back to my linux projects, until july
May 20 03:52:18 <dmoffett_> Sure makes me angry if it is true.
May 20 03:52:37 <dmoffett_> My motivation would go way down and I would consider dropping Android completely.
May 20 03:53:57 <michaelnovakjr> same here
May 20 03:55:07 <michaelnovakjr> very disappointing
May 20 03:55:24 <dmoffett_> Hopefully it is not true.
May 20 03:57:36 <michaelnovakjr> its been too long since the last sdk
May 20 04:00:09 <dmoffett_> A mail arrived added today from a bug I submitted to the Android bug list  a month or two ago.
May 20 04:01:18 <michaelnovakjr> damn
May 20 04:01:19 <dmoffett_> The bug was accepted so maybe they are cranking for the next sdk release.
May 20 04:17:08 <romainguy__>  dmoffett_ we're just taking the bugs in order :)
May 20 04:19:32 <romainguy> re
May 20 04:20:29 <dmoffett_> romainguy: Thank you,  I guess you can't comment on the sdk rumor?
May 20 04:22:13 <romainguy> no I can't
May 20 04:45:21 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: i can't believe that all this is happening...
May 20 04:48:36 <muthu> jasta: what's happening?
May 20 04:49:48 <jasta> muthu: that Google might not be making an SDK release to the general public for "several months".
May 20 04:50:06 <muthu> hmm.. yeah that sucks
May 20 04:50:16 <jasta> effectively denying ADC losers from launching their applications with Android handsets.
May 20 04:50:29 <muthu> right, i'm a bit surprised too
May 20 04:50:52 <jasta> i am going to cry foul at I/O.  what is the point of this ruse?  why are they even having Android sessions at I/O?
May 20 04:52:02 <jasta> it's as though they revoked their release of Android in the first place.
May 20 04:52:02 <muthu> i know
May 20 04:52:17 <muthu> it should be released to the public
May 20 04:52:22 <muthu> not sure what goog plan is
May 20 04:52:23 <jasta> "oops, nevermind, sorry"
May 20 04:53:39 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, this is crap
May 20 04:53:48 <michaelnovakjr> i am extremely fed up with this process
May 20 04:54:28 <jasta> Agreed.
May 20 04:56:37 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: what a waste of our time.
May 20 04:56:41 <michaelnovakjr> yep
May 20 04:56:50 <jasta> I wish I'd never even touched this shit.
May 20 04:57:16 <michaelnovakjr> i starting on the linux projects i suspended before working with android
May 20 04:57:19 <michaelnovakjr> i am *
May 20 04:57:53 <jasta> this is way more disappointment than i can handle.
May 20 04:58:08 <michaelnovakjr> so much for the O in OHA
May 20 04:59:16 <muthu> this is pad publicity for goog
May 20 04:59:30 <jasta> I'm very glad I'm going to I/O now.  I feel like I have a mission to explain to developers just now getting a taste for Android that Google has effectively canceled their release of the platform.
May 20 05:00:00 <jasta> The current SDK is irrelevant, and with no hope of updates it should be ignored completely.
May 20 05:00:28 <muthu> guess there will be a lot of talk about this in IO
May 20 05:00:36 <michaelnovakjr> emphasis on completely ignored
May 20 05:02:16 <jasta> what seems odd to me is that they have now fused the ADC with the development of the platform in general
May 20 05:04:30 <michaelnovakjr> like giving winners funding wasn't enough
May 20 05:04:55 <jasta> yeah, now they are actively penalizing the losers.
May 20 05:04:56 <muthu> what's goog take on this?
May 20 05:04:58 <jasta> not what i'd expect.
May 20 05:05:04 <jasta> muthu: So far we have seen nothing official from Google.
May 20 05:05:09 <muthu> ok
May 20 05:05:23 <jasta> So their take is probably that they are generally embarrassed to make an announcement explaining the reality of this situation.
May 20 05:05:41 <michaelnovakjr> :) not surprised
May 20 05:06:04 <jasta> It would obviously be hard to spin this as a positive.
May 20 05:06:31 <michaelnovakjr> yep
May 20 05:06:42 <jasta> What's especially stupid is that the apps who otherwise were close to the win now cannot launch their apps to promote the platform?  Who does that serve!?
May 20 05:06:50 <michaelnovakjr> too many bugs for a public release??
May 20 05:07:02 <jasta> "The winners are the consumers."  Uhh, ?
May 20 05:07:19 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: oh please, that is just a cover up.  their current SDK has tons of bugs.
May 20 05:07:26 <michaelnovakjr> yep
May 20 05:07:26 <jasta> and they won't even so much as release bug fixes to us?
May 20 05:07:42 <jasta> it's like the Google engineers have not explained to their marketing dept that there is such a thing as branching.
May 20 05:07:45 <michaelnovakjr> something strange is going on
May 20 05:08:16 <jasta> they could, instead, just fix bugs in the public branch and demonstrate the new APIs without releasing otherwise sensitive previews of the platform
May 20 05:08:34 <jasta> i really wish 1 of the 50 winners would be wise enough to cry foul and refuse to sign the NDA.
May 20 05:08:35 <michaelnovakjr> could the project be failing a slow and painful death?
May 20 05:09:18 <jasta> assuming that the platform will ever be released fully open source, i can't wait for the community to steal the project from Google.
May 20 05:09:22 <jasta> they do not deserve to be at the helm.
May 20 05:10:15 <michaelnovakjr> the community should just branch
May 20 05:10:34 <jasta> that's what i am talking about.  that's how you take control of a project that is run by monkeys
May 20 05:10:53 <michaelnovakjr> we've already got the kernel
May 20 05:11:00 <jasta> the kernel isn't much ;)
May 20 05:11:06 <jasta> most of the code is in the Java middleware
May 20 05:11:17 <michaelnovakjr> true, but the kernel is a starting point
May 20 05:11:30 <michaelnovakjr> plus why use java? c is what i am talking about!
May 20 05:11:44 <michaelnovakjr> programming in c, loose the java overhead
May 20 05:12:07 <jasta> i'm pretty sure someone will eventually bind all these so that native C developmernt is possible and well supported
May 20 05:12:18 <jasta> though i do like writing in Java ;)
May 20 05:12:38 <michaelnovakjr> i dont mind java either, but if i had the choice i wouldn't mind C
May 20 05:14:00 <jasta> i really don't know what to do with myself
May 20 05:14:12 <jasta> i am so disillusioned
May 20 05:14:28 <romainguy___> jasta: that's what i am talking about.  that's how you take control of a project that is run by monkeys << thanks, I guess
May 20 05:14:39 <jasta> it isn't run by you, silly.
May 20 05:15:09 <jasta> but please do appreciate that i feel like i have wasted the last 5 months of my life.
May 20 05:15:32 <romainguy___> you haven't wasted anything
May 20 05:15:43 <romainguy___> the current SDK is far from irrelevant
May 20 05:16:09 <jasta> except that it contains numerous bugs that prevent my project from gracefully moving forward?
May 20 05:16:21 <jasta> and the promise of massive API disruptions.
May 20 05:16:55 <jasta> with that gap to likely only widen to a canyon by the time we actually get something released to the public.
May 20 05:17:14 <jasta> my app has now also been put at a great disadvantage to compete with any ADC winners.
May 20 05:20:59 <jasta> i do not see this situation as a minor setback.  i see it as a reason to reject the platform and my project until such time that Google has proven their good faith to the community.
May 20 05:22:13 <jasta> i have renewed suspicion that we will see other curve balls coming, though.  such as only partially revealed source code, massive delays of the product launch, crippling carrier restrictions, etc.
May 20 05:23:04 <romainguy___> don't you think that we don't want any of these things to happen?
May 20 05:24:56 <jasta> i actually am unsure what Google's long term strategy is.  that's a big part of the problem here.
May 20 05:25:29 <jasta> i, as a member of the community supporting Android, feel as though i have been strung along to further only the OHA's long term interests, at direct opposition to my own.
May 20 05:25:51 <jasta> i cannot continue with the faith that my reasonable assumptions will be supported from the other side of the table.
May 20 05:26:31 <jasta> especially with the inexcusable lack of communication the OHA and Google has demonstrated thus far.
May 20 05:29:17 <muthu> hope goog gets it right
May 20 05:29:22 <muthu> and keep the developers happy
May 20 07:22:21 <cutmasta> mornini
May 20 07:22:24 <cutmasta> ;)
May 20 09:00:09 <jasta> yawn
May 20 09:28:04 <jasta> man, May really sucked :)
May 20 09:49:33 <trigatch4> jasta: you the only one up?
May 20 10:17:38 <davidw> jasta, no it didn't
May 20 11:35:15 <volmarias> jasta: completeness was a category. I don't remember what he got in that.
May 20 12:23:01 <Dougie187> Good Morning
May 20 12:53:48 <jasta> volmarias: Polish And Appeal, you mean?  Completeness was most certainly not a category.
May 20 12:59:58 <Dougie187> you guys talking about judging criteria again?
May 20 13:01:17 <jasta> man, what a clusterfuck
May 20 13:01:23 <Dougie187> ?
May 20 13:02:05 <jasta> hopefully i can get dan to confirm all these rumors
May 20 13:02:18 <Dougie187> what rumors?
May 20 13:02:20 <jasta> unbelievable that Google has not officially said anything
May 20 13:02:50 <jasta> Dougie187: you haven't heard?  Google is giving SDK updates only to ADC winners.
May 20 13:02:59 <Dougie187> no i didnt hear that.
May 20 13:03:02 <jasta> with the promise of a public SDK release "in several months"
May 20 13:03:05 <Dougie187> why the hell would they do that?
May 20 13:03:17 <jasta> my guess is that "in several months" means "when handsets are available".
May 20 13:03:29 <Dougie187> thats gay
May 20 13:03:38 <jasta> so, basically, if you didn't win the ADC: get lost.
May 20 13:04:27 <jasta> and now Google I/O is coming up next week, with all these "developer sessions" on Android.  what a joke, right?  why would anyone pick up Android now.
May 20 13:04:49 <volmarias> jasta: I don't remember, honestly.
May 20 13:04:57 <volmarias> He pasted the email to me in an im window a while back.
May 20 13:05:10 <volmarias> he scored surprisingly high considering what he submitted, in my opinion
May 20 13:05:40 <volmarias> this either means that the judges were lenient, or 1/3 of the submissions were hideous
May 20 13:05:51 <jasta> i bet 1/3 of them were hideous
May 20 13:05:54 <Dougie187> have any of the adc winners confirmed they got SDK updates?
May 20 13:06:06 <jasta> Dougie187: See helloandroid.com for at least Zach's take on it.
May 20 13:06:29 <jasta> I so far have not been able t oconfirm this, so I am not quite sure what to think yet.
May 20 13:06:48 <jasta> None of the other winners have seemed to deny it, though
May 20 13:07:25 <jasta> most unbelievable of all is that Google has remained silent about this.  this must have been part of their plan all along.
May 20 13:07:35 <Dougie187> yeah
May 20 13:07:39 <Dougie187> its totally gay if they do that
May 20 13:07:51 <volmarias> totally gaaaay
May 20 13:09:51 <jasta> I can't imagine what sort of retard they have running this show that would make this decision without realizing what a huge impact this would have on reception
May 20 13:10:35 <jasta> I was downright depressed last night that I have spent so much time trying to support this platform.
May 20 13:10:39 <volmarias> the same retards that don't want buggy/incomplete features to be the public image of android.
May 20 13:11:07 <volmarias> android isn't for F/OSS developers, it's for selling handsets
May 20 13:11:09 <jasta> volmarias: you actually believe that line?  lol.  take a look around, all of the SDK releases have been buggy and incomplete.
May 20 13:11:15 <volmarias> and for selling google apps
May 20 13:11:26 <volmarias> yes, but with stated known limitations.
May 20 13:11:27 <davidw> jasta, maybe they don't want to get a reputation for it
May 20 13:11:37 <jasta> in fact, that's exactly why this is so bad.  they need to fucking fix the bugs in the current SDK.
May 20 13:11:38 <volmarias> i.e. "if there's no documentatino, don't expect it to work"
May 20 13:11:50 <davidw> sooner or later they're going to have to start running it like an open source project, but that won't be until the phones come out
May 20 13:11:54 <volmarias> compared to some other platforms, this isn't that bad.
May 20 13:11:56 <davidw> I'll wait to slam them until then:-)
May 20 13:12:32 <jasta> volmarias: How can you even say that?  They have dangled this in front of us to encourage aggressive development leading up to the ADC and have now revoked our ability to continue.
May 20 13:12:51 <volmarias> jasta: not to be cruel, but from their point of view they already have all the good people they need.
May 20 13:13:06 <jasta> You mean none?
May 20 13:13:09 <volmarias> I'm sure they're going to alienate some developers
May 20 13:13:27 <volmarias> but they also have a large group of people who have shown very clear commitment to the platform to pour over their code aggressively and secretly
May 20 13:14:02 <jasta> Up until now, it seems that Google's overall strategy was to alienate no one.  They released a cross platform SDK with lots of code samples, documnetation, etc.  An active community where engineers and dev advocates would respond meaningfully, a public issue tracker, etc.
May 20 13:14:07 <Dougie187> so... winners have to sign a NDA to get the new SDK?
May 20 13:14:10 <jasta> It seemed like they were very much so trying to embrace developers.
May 20 13:14:18 <Dougie187> And if they dont sign they dont get the new SDK but can they still win?
May 20 13:14:31 <jasta> Dougie187: According to that e-mail: no.
May 20 13:14:46 <jasta> Which, to me, seems like a conflict of the original terms of the challenge, but I have not read over them with those glasses on just yet.
May 20 13:15:09 <Dougie187> well you might try to save them just so you get a chance.
May 20 13:15:15 <Dougie187> unless you got a copy from before the first round
May 20 13:15:17 <jasta> The bottom line is that this entire process since November has seemed like an elaborate trick.
May 20 13:15:30 <jasta> Or, it seems like that now I should say.
May 20 13:15:53 <Dougie187> well you have about 2-3 hours until they get in
May 20 13:16:09 <volmarias> yes
May 20 13:16:11 <volmarias> google has tricked you
May 20 13:17:54 <davidw> http://mediacenter.corriere.it/MediaCenter/action/player?uuid=075a177c-264c-11dd-8ccd-00144f02aabc
May 20 13:17:55 <Dougie187> that would be totally gay if they did that though.
May 20 13:17:59 <jasta> Android already has a lot of bad press, most of it I thought was undeserved, but I'll be happy to smear the platform if this turns out to be true.  The platform deserves to fail if this is really how they are going to run it.
May 20 13:18:04 <davidw> some guy eggs ballmer
May 20 13:18:11 <Dougie187> heh yeah
May 20 13:18:14 <Dougie187> its pretty funny
May 20 13:18:16 <Dougie187> i saw that earlier
May 20 13:18:31 <jasta> Bill Gates had a pie thrown at him once
May 20 13:18:33 <Dougie187> true that
May 20 13:18:58 <Dougie187> they still dont have the list of judges up
May 20 13:19:21 <davidw> jasta, that was actually a lot funnier
May 20 13:19:28 <davidw> the pie guys got a lot of people
May 20 13:20:06 <jasta> Dougie187: they don't?  I saw one...
May 20 13:20:29 <Dougie187> " Judges
May 20 13:20:29 <Dougie187>  
May 20 13:20:29 <Dougie187> Once we have the list of participating judges finalized, we will post it here. Keep watching this space! "
May 20 13:21:21 <jasta> oh, they jus tposted it elsewhere
May 20 13:21:40 <jasta> on some android-developers blogpost they mention the list
May 20 13:21:42 <jasta> and point to it
May 20 13:24:26 <Dougie187> ask muthu
May 20 13:24:28 <Dougie187> he might confirm
May 20 13:24:30 <jasta> muthu: Can you confirm that you received an e-mail asking you to sign an NDA to get access to the new SDK?
May 20 13:24:40 <muthu> yes
May 20 13:25:00 <volmarias> muthu, I hear you flew the penis that assaulted kasperov in russia. confirm/deny
May 20 13:25:11 <muthu> negative
May 20 13:25:18 <jasta> Have you received any additional clarification suggesting that a public release will not be made even after the ADC is over?
May 20 13:25:20 <volmarias> that is not deny, I will take that to mean "confirm"
May 20 13:25:36 <muthu> haha
May 20 13:25:45 <muthu> jasta: that i don't know
May 20 13:26:15 <volmarias> muthu: can you confirm that birds suddenly appear whenever you are near?
May 20 13:26:34 <muthu> +1
May 20 13:27:01 <jasta> lol
May 20 13:27:13 <muthu> haha
May 20 13:27:15 <jasta> "[...] But NDAs and open source go togehter like oil and flamethrowers."
May 20 13:27:16 <muthu> cheer up dudes
May 20 13:27:47 <jasta> i don't know that that's a good analogy, because oil and flamethrowers sounds like a recipe for good fun.
May 20 13:27:56 <Dougie187> too late muthu
May 20 13:28:03 <volmarias> and one hell of a great sexual encounter
May 20 13:31:18 <jasta> well anyway
May 20 13:31:24 <jasta> time to get ready for work
May 20 13:31:28 <Dougie187> just wait for morrildl and romain to come in
May 20 13:31:36 <jasta> romain won't confirm anything.  he's french.
May 20 13:31:43 <jasta> and morrildl might just avoid us all today ;)
May 20 13:31:58 <Dougie187> when did they get the email?
May 20 13:32:30 <jasta> Dougie187: yesterday afternoon, PST.
May 20 13:32:45 <jasta> Dan was here when we were all starting to figure it out
May 20 13:32:48 <jasta> and he disappeared :)
May 20 13:32:55 <Dougie187> lol
May 20 13:33:07 <Dougie187> i should get my laptop today.
May 20 13:33:09 <Dougie187> im pumped
May 20 13:33:27 <Dougie187> dan should get on in about 2 hours though
May 20 13:44:54 <Dougie187> hey jasta, i would assume since they have to sign and NDA we wont get the SDK.
May 20 13:45:01 <Dougie187> an*
May 20 13:47:26 <jasta> zach claims a source at google confirmed exactly that
May 20 13:47:32 <jasta> that we get squat for "several months'
May 20 13:47:47 <jasta> which basically means we all get to pack up and go home
May 20 13:47:56 <jasta> fuck this whole stupid thing
May 20 13:48:36 <davidw> anyone know how to get OpenOffice to display the slide number on all slides?
May 20 13:49:31 <davidw> got it, never mind
May 20 13:55:07 <ligi> WTF?
May 20 13:55:23 <davidw> ligi, what?
May 20 13:55:28 <davidw> god damn am I tired
May 20 13:55:41 <davidw> I wish I had better design skills too
May 20 13:55:53 <ligi> just read the history of this chan and noticed the closed SDK thing for the !50
May 20 13:55:58 <ligi> that suxx
May 20 13:56:18 <ligi> and makes no sense at all
May 20 13:56:28 <davidw> well... we'll wait and see what they say
May 20 13:56:54 <davidw> the best approach is to act as if they aren't doing somethings stupid until we're sure, since we don't really actually know much at all yet
May 20 13:57:15 <dmoffett_> Most of the things Google has done has not bothered me that much, however this SDK deal really pisses me off.
May 20 13:57:37 <ligi> dmoffett_: same here
May 20 13:57:51 <ligi> this is so fuckin stupid
May 20 14:00:07 <dmoffett_> Does not make sense.  If they want a NDA to keep it under wraps for a few months I will sign but don't handicap 1733 sincere efforts.
May 20 14:00:21 <jasta> davidw is right though, it is unwise to trust Zach and Muthu with this type of thing ;)
May 20 14:00:33 <dmoffett_> Cool
May 20 14:00:45 <ligi> ;-)
May 20 14:01:02 <dmoffett_> So nothing has been confirmed.
May 20 14:01:02 <davidw> I think 'davidw is right' would make a good topic, and a good rule to live by
May 20 14:01:06 <jasta> i'd be fine with the ADC winners getting special SDK updates, with applications produced by Google being revealed so that they can integrate with e-mail, etc.  But just taking away simple bug fixes, new APIs, etc is so crazy.
May 20 14:01:07 <ligi> hope these are just bad rumours
May 20 14:01:39 <ligi> i want working bluetooth !!!!-)
May 20 14:03:26 <dmoffett_> Oh well I hope they are not holding up the latest SDK for any reason.
May 20 14:03:33 <jasta> man, i am so going to make a scene at I/O :)
May 20 14:03:49 <jasta> i hope i get really drunk and get kicked out.  those are my favorite stories of all ;)
May 20 14:04:03 <davidw> ahahhah
May 20 14:04:05 <ligi> jasta: ^^-)
May 20 14:04:37 <ligi> jasta: i want to see this but not enter America - plz make videos
May 20 14:05:24 <muthu> Google IO party.. man that would be cool
May 20 14:05:43 <muthu> i'm joining you jasta
May 20 14:06:13 <ligi> muthu: namaskar & MAKE VIDEOS !!-)
May 20 14:06:41 <muthu> ligi: you bet
May 20 14:07:03 <jasta> you can't come
May 20 14:07:17 <muthu> jasta: hey buddy
May 20 14:07:18 <[jarek]> jasta: bite sergey brin also ;>
May 20 14:07:33 <jasta> hehe, that made me actually laugh aloud
May 20 14:07:57 <[jarek]> jasta: you will be famous ;)
May 20 14:30:06 <Dougie187> any news jasta?
May 20 14:34:52 <trigatch4> What wants to write for an Android blog? :) hahha
May 20 15:04:37 <Dougie187> i didnt know about this one.
May 20 15:04:37 <Dougie187> http://moblin.org/contest_india.php
May 20 15:11:24 <Hai-Fai> Dougie187:  Am I eligible to enter?
May 20 15:11:24 <Hai-Fai> If you are 18 years or older, you are eligible to enter the contest. This is a local contest for India and only residents of India or those authorized to live or work in India are eligible to participate, with some restrictions.
May 20 15:11:36 <Hai-Fai> so I hope you're from India :)
May 20 15:12:11 <Dougie187> thats disappointing.
May 20 15:12:15 <Dougie187> i am not from india
May 20 15:12:18 <Dougie187> maybe muthu can hop on that one
May 20 15:12:23 <Dougie187> though the prizes are not very good
May 20 15:13:15 <muthu> Dougie187: that's interesting
May 20 15:23:54 <jasta> *jasta smash*
May 20 15:23:54 <jasta> YARGH
May 20 15:29:38 * cutmasta is away (away)
May 20 15:40:18 <poffy_> heh
May 20 15:40:19 <poffy_> jasta
May 20 15:40:28 <poffy_>  <jasta> *jasta smash*
May 20 15:40:30 <poffy_> I chuckled
May 20 15:51:36 <jasta> i am genuinely depressed by this recent development
May 20 15:51:41 <jasta> this has really upset my mood
May 20 15:53:38 <Hai-Fai> https://loopt.com/loopt/sess/index.aspx <-- did someone create some app similiar to that on android? seems pretty familiar to me.. would be cool if it were free of charge and on android
May 20 15:53:50 <Dougie187> jasta im bummed too
May 20 15:53:53 <Dougie187> and they should be around now.
May 20 15:54:03 <Dougie187> maybe about 10 more minutes thoug
May 20 15:54:04 <Dougie187> though.
May 20 15:54:12 <Dougie187> if they go in at 9am and not 8am
May 20 15:54:26 <ligi> http://www.helloandroid.com/node/572
May 20 15:54:28 <ligi> argh
May 20 15:55:14 * ligi bangs his head against the wall
May 20 15:55:20 <Dougie187> yeah
May 20 15:55:25 <Dougie187> thats what we ware all astounded by
May 20 15:56:41 <davidw> Hai-Fai, there were about 10 of them
May 20 15:57:01 <Dougie187> lol yeah
May 20 15:57:07 <Dougie187> i would say 25 actually
May 20 15:57:09 <Dougie187> maybe a bit more.
May 20 15:58:38 <Hai-Fai> no-one noticed sarcasm?
May 20 15:58:50 <Dougie187> nope.
May 20 15:58:51 <Dougie187> lol
May 20 15:58:58 <Hai-Fai> k, g2 try better next time
May 20 15:59:00 <muthu> Hai-Fai: which app similar to loopt?
May 20 15:59:22 <Hai-Fai> dunno? most of 'em?
May 20 15:59:39 <jasta> Hai-Fai: i've used Loopt, the interface is actually kind of goofy
May 20 15:59:50 <jasta> great concept, but i don't know that it will take off because of that
May 20 16:00:02 <muthu> jasta: its a paid service
May 20 16:00:06 <Dougie187> he was joking too
May 20 16:00:16 <Dougie187> he was trying to say there were tons in the ADC
May 20 16:00:21 <jasta> i know it is, my friend works for loopt, and in fact he sent me a phone to use it on.
May 20 16:00:33 <Hai-Fai> yep, but wouldn't it be great that all of us who didn't get to top 50 started to create such an app as opensource :)
May 20 16:00:42 <Dougie187> lol yeah
May 20 16:01:02 <jasta> Hai-Fai: yeah, too bad none of us can create any app until the handsets launch now
May 20 16:01:10 <Hai-Fai> basics we already have, 'cause android does include google maps =)
May 20 16:01:19 <Hai-Fai> well yeah..
May 20 16:01:49 <Dougie187> hopefully they dont do that.
May 20 16:01:52 <Dougie187> because its retarded
May 20 16:02:42 <Hai-Fai> I'm not counting on that "hopefully" 'cause it seems pretty obvious
May 20 16:02:58 <jasta> i bet they do, honestly.  this thing has actually been very poorly managed from the start.
May 20 16:03:34 <muthu> marvin & commandro looks a lot more functional
May 20 16:03:37 <jasta> we've all just put up with it because we've been enchanted by the hope of prize money and a better phone down the road.
May 20 16:04:03 <jasta> at this point in the game, i have my doubts that Android will even work well.
May 20 16:04:20 <jasta> and i don't see how it is going to wrestle market share away from the iPhone
May 20 16:04:29 <Hai-Fai> and symbians
May 20 16:04:59 <Dougie187> I really dont understand the purpose of not releasing due to bugs and crap.
May 20 16:05:04 <muthu> jasta: i'm sure there will be an sdk release soon
May 20 16:05:07 <Dougie187> i would think they would release so people could help find bugs
May 20 16:05:12 <Dougie187> lol for you
May 20 16:05:13 <Dougie187> not for us
May 20 16:06:01 <muthu> i bet there'll be a public one
May 20 16:06:09 <Dougie187> not for "a couple months"
May 20 16:06:22 <Dougie187> so people assume after ADC is over.
May 20 16:06:37 <davidw> dougie: http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2008/02/21/android-commercial-meets-open-source
May 20 16:06:57 <davidw> There are a ton of 'commercial' type people playing with Android too
May 20 16:07:10 <Dougie187> jasta. jump him
May 20 16:07:11 <Dougie187> lol
May 20 16:07:18 <davidw> who probably would never dream of submitting bugs, and will just complain that it's broken
May 20 16:07:50 <Dougie187> but the whole open source community who is commited to developing working apps would submit bugs and possibly even fix some of them if they could.
May 20 16:08:04 <Dougie187> especially if a bug is relavent to their app working correctly
May 20 16:08:38 <davidw> well
May 20 16:08:43 <davidw> except that Android isn't open source, either
May 20 16:08:47 <Dougie187> true.
May 20 16:08:51 <Dougie187> thats why i said if they could
May 20 16:08:55 <davidw> Dougie187, that's the point of my article.... it's sort of in a no-man's land
May 20 16:09:07 <Dougie187> yeah
May 20 16:09:45 <Dougie187>  wonder if ADC2 is going to be smaller as a result of this new development
May 20 16:11:01 <muthu> ADC2 will be bigger
May 20 16:11:15 <Dougie187> what makes you say that?
May 20 16:13:28 <muthu> just the challenge and the prize money will motivate people again
May 20 16:14:02 <Dougie187> i dont know if it would be bigger though
May 20 16:14:09 <Dougie187> especially if google pisses off alot of developers.
May 20 16:14:26 <Dougie187> not the commercial people as davidw was pointing out.
May 20 16:14:35 <dmoffett_> there will always be a long list of people who will step up.
May 20 16:15:03 <muthu> yeah, there will be numbers
May 20 16:15:47 <dmoffett_> If everyone of us bailed Android would still be fine if Google stands behind Android.
May 20 16:19:14 <Dougie187> its disappointing if thats their standpoint
May 20 16:19:21 <Dougie187> seems a little microsoftish
May 20 16:19:29 <Dougie187> fix things by throwing money at them
May 20 16:20:26 <davidw> man, I'm tired
May 20 16:20:54 <dmoffett_> Not saying that is their standpoint.  Just a fact that as a small developer has to deal with.
May 20 16:21:13 <Hai-Fai> that's what they tried with XP and noticed it works, so they keep on getting money from ppl with Vista [luckily it isn't working that great as it did with XP]..
May 20 16:21:24 <Dougie187> Its what they did with the Xbox too
May 20 16:24:01 <jasta> i bet the Google Apps that have been developing quietly (e-mail, calendar, etc) are all shit ;)
May 20 16:24:37 <dmoffett_> yeah just like all their other apps.  :-)
May 20 16:26:13 <jasta> i bet they're ridiculously ajaxy for no good reason ;)
May 20 16:26:16 <Hai-Fai> but their (g)mail isn't that shitty =P
May 20 16:29:15 <jasta> they're just embarrassed to show it, so they lock the devs into an NDA :)
May 20 16:32:43 <jasta> gah, i'm just upset
May 20 16:32:45 <jasta> i bet they're awesome :(
May 20 16:32:54 <Dougie187> what do you bet is awesome?
May 20 16:33:00 <Dougie187> i wonder when they get access to the new SDK
May 20 16:33:51 <dmoffett_> the sdk will probably fall into the wrong hands anywa.  :-)
May 20 16:33:58 <Dougie187> heh
May 20 16:34:27 <Dougie187> i was thinking, maybe you can "become" part of another group. like muthu's, just to get access to the SDK and sign an NDA but not get any money or contribute to their project.
May 20 16:35:18 <jasta> i actually don't think this one will get leaked.
May 20 16:35:29 <Dougie187> why not?
May 20 16:41:40 <jasta> i just don't think so.  the ADC winners will be too scared to get screwed out of their prize money
May 20 16:41:58 <jasta> and the OHA members are insane mobile companies who have a long history of keeping information locked down
May 20 16:42:08 <jasta> and Google, well, maybe :)
May 20 16:42:47 <jasta> btw, $20 says Dan does not show up today
May 20 16:43:13 <muthu> $40 says he's not showing up tomorrow too
May 20 16:43:15 <muthu> hehe
May 20 16:43:52 <muthu> jasta: 20 please
May 20 16:43:57 <jasta> wow
May 20 16:43:59 <jasta> that was weird :)
May 20 16:44:09 <jasta> $20 says a beautiful woman won't walk by topless
May 20 16:44:14 <muthu> lol
May 20 16:44:16 <jasta> *crosses fingers*
May 20 16:44:31 <topless> hey jasta
May 20 16:44:32 <jasta> i said beautiful woman
May 20 16:44:36 <topless> haha
May 20 16:44:41 <ligi> lol
May 20 16:44:56 <jasta> morrildl: so, now that you're here: *WHAT THE FUCK!?!?*
May 20 16:44:59 <ligi> jasta: he can cook
May 20 16:45:14 <muthu> yo ligi
May 20 16:45:17 <jasta> ligi: utility does not equate to beauty.   hmm, or does it? :)
May 20 16:45:33 <morrildl> jasta: hmm?
May 20 16:45:37 <ligi> morrildl: why no new SDK for us loosers?
May 20 16:45:54 <ligi> morrildl: thats the context: http://www.helloandroid.com/node/572
May 20 16:46:23 <morrildl> jasta: it wasn't that weird
May 20 16:46:30 * morrildl points at romainguy 
May 20 16:46:37 <romainguy> I'm totally innocent
May 20 16:46:45 <morrildl> ;)
May 20 16:46:47 <morrildl> ahh yes, that
May 20 16:46:55 <morrildl> ligi: yeah we aren't happy about that
May 20 16:47:10 <ligi> morrildl: then why do you do it?
May 20 16:47:29 <ligi> morrildl: Love it ; Change it or Leave it
May 20 16:47:47 <dmoffett_> The question is are they going to do it?
May 20 16:47:56 <morrildl> ligi: the problem is that there are a lot of factors pushing the decision around
May 20 16:48:09 <jasta>  like being ass hats?
May 20 16:48:22 <ligi> ^^
May 20 16:48:38 <morrildl> as David said in the post, a big one is API stability and so on -- there's not much point in replacing a non-final set of APIs with a different non-final set of APIs
May 20 16:48:58 <jasta> there is nothing that makes this decision acceptable, dan.  it isn't unfortunate, it's downright absurd.  you assholes got a lot of hard work out of us, and are not permitting us to prepare for the handset launch.
May 20 16:49:04 <morrildl> another big influencer is various IP considerations that I am actually not even that well informed on
May 20 16:49:29 <jasta> morrildl: oh shove it.  we haven't seen anything resembling stable APIs, bug free code, etc.  the whole platform has been a mess to work with and you know it.
May 20 16:50:35 <ligi> ;-)
May 20 16:51:05 <jasta> you guys need to open your eyes and realize that 1800 people worked HARD for your platform, trying to make it a success with consumers.
May 20 16:51:51 <jasta> penalizing us because we didn't write a stupid fucking social app is appalling.
May 20 16:53:09 <volmarias> You wrote apps, for a potential prize.
May 20 16:53:12 <jasta> we at least deserve an official statement for crying out loud.  "thanks for all your hard work, now get lost."
May 20 16:53:24 <dmoffett_> Jasta: carrying on like that is not going to get us anywhere.  I appreciate your sentiment and I aggree on a lot of points but the guys here can carry our case or get pissed at us.
May 20 16:53:29 <morrildl> jasta: indeed, it's definitely a problem for people who want to keep developing, and it also isn't a very open-source-y thing to do
May 20 16:53:51 <ligi> morrildl: thats the point
May 20 16:54:05 <morrildl> the problem is, as I said, that there are more considerations than just the open-source part of it
May 20 16:54:15 <jasta> morrildl: and what about these developer sessions at I/O?  why on earth would anyone want to attend that?
May 20 16:54:42 <volmarias> why, I demand you immediately place android under the GPL! Let the foss community work with it! Let it become a resounding success, like GNU/Hurd!
May 20 16:54:46 <dmoffett_> We can all sign NDAs.
May 20 16:55:04 <morrildl> One thing that I guess it would make sense to ask is:  would anybody be willing/interested to the same level of access that hte top-50 have?
May 20 16:55:18 <volmarias> I think you can guess the answer to that.
May 20 16:55:24 <dmoffett_> We have been on board for many months and should not be cut out at this point.
May 20 16:55:27 <volmarias> at least based on jasta's bile
May 20 16:55:27 <jasta> yeah, gee, i wonder.
May 20 16:55:28 <morrildl> meaning, is the primary concern the principled concern about it being restricted access, or is the principle concern simply access?
May 20 16:56:06 <ligi> morrildl: access
May 20 16:56:06 <jasta> morrildl: why do we have to pick?  there are plenty of things that are not sensitive changes to the SDK that would keep people moving
May 20 16:56:08 <dmoffett_> I would sign an NDA to move my program forward.
May 20 16:56:13 <jasta> for example, a MediaPlayer class that isn't horribly broken.
May 20 16:56:27 <ligi> or Bluetooth API that is there
May 20 16:56:31 <jasta> access to perhaps certain critical API changes, like the improvements to the XML layouts.
May 20 16:56:35 <jasta> yes, exactly
May 20 16:56:46 <jasta> the things which have nothing to do with sensitive material should be branched and released to the general public.
May 20 16:56:54 <jasta> and surely that's most of it that we need to keep going!
May 20 16:57:24 <jasta> it's not like any of us have seen any of sensitive details of the platform up to this point, but we've had enough to develop.
May 20 16:57:29 <jasta> well, some of us ;)
May 20 16:58:22 <morrildl> jasta: so I assume that for your part that's a 'no'?
May 20 16:58:38 <jasta> what's a no?
May 20 16:58:52 <jasta> about signing an NDA.  i would certainly prefer not to, though if that is my only option to keep moving i would.
May 20 16:58:54 <ligi> morrildl: i don't linke NDA's  but if i _must_ sign to continue - I would
May 20 16:59:03 <jasta> but my big question is: WHY the NDA?  What the hell is in there!?!?
May 20 16:59:27 <dmoffett_> you have to sign one to find out.  :-)
May 20 16:59:30 <ligi> jasta: i think details about upcoming Hardware they want to hide e.g.
May 20 16:59:31 <jasta> i mean we're screaming about huge missing features that are found on other platform SDKs.  things need to work like they are supposed to, bluetooth needs to be there, etc.
May 20 16:59:58 <morrildl> ligi: indeed that is a big concern
May 20 17:00:11 <ligi> they dont want the roumor to leak that Atom iss supported by Android
May 20 17:00:12 <jasta> we need to know what some of the new APIs look like to keep our designs current, etc.
May 20 17:00:12 <ligi> ^^
May 20 17:00:34 <morrildl> probably the nastiest problem we are dealing with is that we are keeping other companies' secrets right now
May 20 17:00:55 <jasta> i am not filled with confidence that android is ever going to be open source, btw.
May 20 17:01:12 <morrildl> jasta: sure, I can understand where that comes from
May 20 17:01:16 <ligi> and that would suck ..
May 20 17:01:18 <jasta> maybe some parts, but if google is currently demonstrating that they can't even separate bug fixes from all this proprietary mess, then what can we expect down the road?
May 20 17:01:24 <ligi> then i wasted my time
May 20 17:01:38 <morrildl> That plan has not changed though, the source will still be released once handsets ship
May 20 17:02:04 <jasta> i mean is this just one giant monolithic mess?  why can't we have our API updates, bug fixes etc, separated from the parts that must be covered under an NDA?
May 20 17:02:08 <jasta> makes no sense!
May 20 17:02:22 <ligi> morrildl: cant u somehow accidently leak the infos so that this is no more problem ?-)
May 20 17:02:35 <jasta> that said, i will reiterate that if i must, i will sign an NDA to keep going.
May 20 17:02:57 <muthu> morrildl: people are confused with NDA
May 20 17:03:10 <morrildl> muthu: yes, taht's a good point too
May 20 17:03:11 <volmarias> jasta will sign it with blood.
May 20 17:03:15 <volmarias> not his blood, mind.
May 20 17:03:41 <muthu> there's a lot of discussion going on everywhere about this whole NDA thing
May 20 17:03:47 <ligi> morrildl: btw.: are the ADC I winners blocked for ADC II? If not they have a big advantage ...
May 20 17:03:51 <muthu> and why rules are changing
May 20 17:05:40 <dmoffett_> It seems pretty simple to me.  Are you willing to sign an NDA to get access to the latest SDK?  If not then wait.
May 20 17:06:01 <dmoffett_> Far better than falling a few months behind.
May 20 17:06:10 <jasta> it seems even simpler to me: branch the code and release bug fixes and certain new APIs/features separately from sensitive changes.
May 20 17:06:47 <dmoffett_> I have no idea what is going on inside Google, they are the best judge of that.  I just want access to the sdk.
May 20 17:07:51 <jasta> dmoffett_: or maybe they aren't?  maybe the team just didn't think of that as an option at first.
May 20 17:08:57 <jasta> i've met quite a few engineers who don't even know how to maintain branches :)
May 20 17:09:04 <jasta> (despite it being very easy to do)
May 20 17:09:27 <morrildl> the issue isn't branching, it's the process overhead in figuring out what needs to get branched
May 20 17:10:01 <jasta> you don't think you can trust the engineers to make that call when its obvious, and clarify when it's not?
May 20 17:10:09 <morrildl> ligi: are you asking if ADC 1 winners are eligible for ADC 2?
May 20 17:10:11 <dmoffett_> Frankly I would like to see the entire sdk even if under a NDA.
May 20 17:10:51 <ligi> morrildl: right
May 20 17:11:07 <ligi> morrildl: those who recieve the new SDK
May 20 17:11:31 <morrildl> ligi: good question.  The rules for ADC 2 are written yet, so that isn't an answerable question, per se
May 20 17:12:07 <morrildl> but that is definitely a good point, that people who have early access to the SDK have an advantage in ADC2
May 20 17:12:12 <morrildl> at least, depending on the timing of ADC 2
May 20 17:12:35 <morrildl> relative to the eventual public SDK release, I mean
May 20 17:12:42 <dmoffett_> Can I give you my email for the NDA, we do want to be fair.
May 20 17:12:42 <ligi> morrildl: dont see the dependency on timing
May 20 17:13:02 <Dougie187> damn i gotta catch up
May 20 17:13:09 <morrildl> ligi: I mean that if the public SDK is out for 6 months before ADC 2 starts, then an extra 1 month might not matter much
May 20 17:13:21 <muthu> /nickserv register muthu
May 20 17:13:23 <morrildl> ligi: but if it's only been public for like 1 month, that's a clear advantage
May 20 17:13:42 <ligi> morrildl: no its always +X => so an advantage
May 20 17:14:18 <morrildl> ligi: yes, but the value of +X diminishes over time, so that eventually it will drop into the general noise
May 20 17:14:25 <morrildl> ligi: anyway I don't mean to get into lawyer arguments :)
May 20 17:14:37 <morrildl> I'll make sure that point gets considered when the ADC2 rules get written
May 20 17:15:31 <ligi> morrildl: ok - but this was just a side note
May 20 17:16:20 <ligi> I thought i get an SDK with working Bluetooth earlier
May 20 17:16:33 <ligi> sorry but that all suxx
May 20 17:20:37 <morrildl_> stupid mac
May 20 17:20:48 <morrildl_> I think I missed some private messages
May 20 17:21:14 <muthu> morrildl: i'm not registered, so couldn't reply private
May 20 17:24:27 <Dougie187> so morrildl, are you then allowing anyone who signs an NDA access to the SDK?
May 20 17:24:33 <romainguy_> jasta: We do know how to maintain branches :)
May 20 17:29:40 <Dougie187> and.. i missed the discussion.
May 20 17:29:50 <morrildl_> Dougie187: since there is (clearly) substantial interest, I will see if we can do that
May 20 17:30:03 <Dougie187> ok
May 20 17:30:06 <dmoffett_> Sweet
May 20 17:30:19 <Dougie187> at least your not out to screw everyone over like we all throught this morning.
May 20 17:30:20 <Dougie187> lol
May 20 17:31:38 <dmoffett_> Now I can stop beating the wife and kids to relieve all this stress.  :-)
May 20 17:31:46 <Dougie187> lol
May 20 17:32:42 <ligi> morrildl: are there news about this gallery thing?
May 20 17:33:26 <dmoffett_> Just trying to give Google and idea on the gravity of the situation.  Women and children suffer if the SDK is not available to all.  :-)
May 20 17:33:49 <Dougie187> here its my wife and pets.
May 20 17:34:06 <Dougie187> though i havent written anything for the SDK yet.
May 20 17:34:11 <Dougie187> but i will once i get my laptop back later today
May 20 17:34:15 <Dougie187> Also, muthu owes me a laptop soon
May 20 17:34:15 <Dougie187> lol
May 20 17:34:27 <dmoffett_> I read that as well.
May 20 17:35:41 <muthu> Dougie187: oh yeah
May 20 17:36:12 <muthu> dmoffett_: and they suffer more if its available ;)
May 20 17:36:37 <Dougie187> lol
May 20 17:36:42 <Dougie187> they choose from beating or isolation
May 20 17:36:55 <dmoffett_> It is two edged sword.
May 20 17:38:13 <Dougie187> nice. new lenovo coupons are out.
May 20 17:38:17 <Dougie187> lets price my laptop now.
May 20 17:39:55 <Dougie187> looks like ~650
May 20 17:40:37 <jasta> that's a nice deal :)
May 20 17:40:41 <jasta> what one are you getting?
May 20 17:40:46 <Dougie187> i want to get an R61
May 20 17:40:49 <jasta> I have a Lenovo 3000 N200, and mine was like $840
May 20 17:40:52 <Dougie187> with a discrete graphics card
May 20 17:40:56 <jasta> the R series is thick.
May 20 17:40:58 <Dougie187> yeah
May 20 17:41:00 <Dougie187> but i dont care
May 20 17:41:04 <Dougie187> it sits on a desk all the time anways
May 20 17:41:11 <Dougie187> i would get a T if I wanted to pay a bit more.
May 20 17:41:15 <jasta> yeah, mine's pretty bulky too.  i prefer the large screen.
May 20 17:41:22 <Dougie187> i want the 14.1 screen
May 20 17:41:24 <Dougie187> not the 15.4
May 20 17:41:32 <Dougie187> i care more about the graphics card though
May 20 17:41:40 <Dougie187> i could probably go for the 15.4 to make it a bit cheaper too
May 20 17:41:55 <Dougie187> but i price it with vista basic so i can save some money on that crap
May 20 17:41:58 <Dougie187> since its getting ubuntu
May 20 17:42:13 <Dougie187> since they dont have linux + discrete graphics card
May 20 17:42:19 <Dougie187> which is really disappointing
May 20 17:42:28 <jasta> my mom works for IBM and gets a pretty significant lenovo discount
May 20 17:42:32 <Dougie187> dell does but their ubuntu laptops are more than their windows ones.
May 20 17:42:41 <Dougie187> yeah i have a friend who has the IBM EPP
May 20 17:42:42 <jasta> mine was normally $1080, discounted to $840.
May 20 17:42:46 <Dougie187> its about 15%
May 20 17:42:50 <Dougie187> but you cant use coupons
May 20 17:42:52 <jasta> (above the normal discounts they advertise on their page)
May 20 17:42:59 <Dougie187> and right now for R series they have 30% with coupons.
May 20 17:43:10 <Dougie187> T series has ~25%
May 20 17:43:20 <Dougie187> (on top of advertised discounts too)
May 20 17:43:38 <Dougie187> the R that i prices was like 980 before the coupons
May 20 17:43:41 <Dougie187> and 650 after
May 20 17:43:56 <Dougie187> priced*
May 20 17:44:18 <Dougie187> of course half of the savings is from fatwallet's cash back program
May 20 17:44:23 <Dougie187> so you have to pay like 750 to start
May 20 17:44:27 <Dougie187> and then you get 15% off
May 20 17:44:36 <Dougie187> or back i should say
May 20 17:45:00 <Dougie187> pretty cool though
May 20 17:45:17 <jasta> i wish lenovo would cut out the windows tax
May 20 17:45:22 <jasta> let you buy it with nothing preinstalled
May 20 17:45:23 <Dougie187> me too
May 20 17:45:27 <Dougie187> true dat.
May 20 17:45:31 <jasta> i just dont see why they don't have that option
May 20 17:45:35 <Dougie187> i know
May 20 17:45:42 <jasta> the only difference is whether they run their automated build or not.  who cares, right?
May 20 17:45:44 <Dougie187> i want a discrete graphics card with no os
May 20 17:45:55 <Dougie187> i dont even care if it comes with SUSE
May 20 17:46:00 <Dougie187> since SUSE is free from them.
May 20 17:47:03 <Dougie187> damn, with coupons and their advertised sale prices this laptop is about 50% of what it should be
May 20 17:47:40 <Dougie187> it starts at 1191, then they ahve 25% off so its 893.25, then i put another 15% off so its 759.26 and then theres another 15% cash back and that makes it about 650.
May 20 17:47:47 <Dougie187> 645 i think was the final price.
May 20 17:48:34 <Dougie187> have you ever used fatwallet jasta?
May 20 17:49:35 <jasta> no, what is it?
May 20 17:49:45 <Dougie187> its like a "deal" forums site.
May 20 17:49:48 <Dougie187> they get coupons
May 20 17:49:56 <Dougie187> and have a cash back program with a lot of online retailers.
May 20 17:50:00 <Dougie187> www.fatwallet.com
May 20 17:50:50 <jasta> hmm, interesting
May 20 17:50:58 <Dougie187> its cool
May 20 17:51:03 <Dougie187> ive been a member for like 3 years now.
May 20 17:52:21 <jasta> i dunno if this site is for me
May 20 17:52:27 <jasta> i still buy my shampoo at the grocery store
May 20 17:52:31 <Dougie187> hah
May 20 17:52:46 <Dougie187> they have like tricky deals to get nice discounts on different things
May 20 17:53:04 <Dougie187> or just cool price match things to get sweet prices on tvs and stuff
May 20 17:53:57 <ligi> Dougie187: do they have coupons for Android SDK's ?-)
May 20 17:54:05 <Dougie187> not yet
May 20 17:54:05 <Dougie187> lol
May 20 17:54:13 <Dougie187> maybe with an NDA
May 20 17:56:59 <Dougie187> man, matt_c must have a messed up comp
May 20 17:57:03 <Dougie187> or IRC client
May 20 17:59:02 <matt_c> Dougie187: sorry, I've been bouncing between locations and networks.
May 20 17:59:10 <Dougie187> heh
May 20 17:59:15 <Dougie187> i dont have an issue with it
May 20 17:59:18 <matt_c> :)
May 20 17:59:22 <Dougie187> i just saw you leave and join 4 times really quick
May 20 17:59:37 <matt_c> Yeah, I think my IRC client was being a bit over-zealous.
May 20 17:59:55 <Dougie187> heh
May 20 17:59:58 <Dougie187> it happens
May 20 18:01:03 <jasta> hehe, i am reminded of http://xkcd.com/416/
May 20 18:01:48 <Dougie187> what irc clients do you guys use?
May 20 18:01:59 <jasta> irssi
May 20 18:02:29 <Dougie187> haha
May 20 18:02:32 <Dougie187> that is funny
May 20 18:03:05 <Dougie187> i use pidgin when im on ubuntu
May 20 18:03:09 <Dougie187> right now im using trillian though
May 20 18:03:24 <muthu> kopete
May 20 18:04:02 <muthu> any wifi network manager for fedora?
May 20 18:04:15 <muthu> basically just want to browse the list of wifi networks and connect
May 20 18:04:18 <Dougie187> who uses fedora?
May 20 18:04:22 <muthu> me
May 20 18:04:24 <Dougie187> WifiRadar maybe/
May 20 18:04:25 <Dougie187> ?
May 20 18:04:29 <Dougie187> i know thats one in ubuntu
May 20 18:04:38 <muthu> yeah, ubuntu is good on that
May 20 18:04:39 <Dougie187> dont know if they have an RPM for it
May 20 18:04:53 <muthu> ok, i'll check
May 20 18:05:12 <Dougie187> http://wifi-radar.systemimager.org/
May 20 18:05:29 <muthu> cool, thx
May 20 18:05:33 <Dougie187> np
May 20 18:07:30 <muthu> what?
May 20 18:07:34 <muthu> no fedora?
May 20 18:07:39 <Dougie187> build from source
May 20 18:07:50 <muthu> arghhh
May 20 18:07:58 <muthu> there should be something for fedora
May 20 18:08:06 <Dougie187> lol
May 20 18:08:11 <Dougie187> noone likes fedora.
May 20 18:08:26 <Dougie187> cant you use the nmapplet?
May 20 18:08:28 <jasta> ubuntu just uses networkmanager
May 20 18:08:41 <Dougie187> doesnt fedora have that too?
May 20 18:08:48 <Dougie187> i thought that was gnome specific, not ubuntu specific.
May 20 18:08:49 <muthu> there's a networkmanager
May 20 18:08:57 <muthu> not sure if its working right
May 20 18:08:59 <Dougie187> and theres Madwifi?
May 20 18:09:20 <jasta> Dougie187: it's not really gnome specific either, KDE has a frontend for it as well
May 20 18:09:24 <jasta> it's primarily a DBus service
May 20 18:10:07 <isaac> Dougie187: madwifi is a driver
May 20 18:10:12 <isaac> for a given type of wireless cards
May 20 18:10:14 <Dougie187> yeah i see that now.
May 20 18:10:26 <Dougie187> i was just googling fedora wifi something.
May 20 18:10:30 <muthu> isaac: any wifi client for fedora
May 20 18:10:36 <isaac> and networkmanager is not really "gnome-specific"
May 20 18:10:50 <isaac> kde also has a networkmanager frontend
May 20 18:10:59 <isaac> muthu: dunno, debian user here
May 20 18:11:09 <Dougie187> "[14:09] jasta: Dougie187: it's not really gnome specific either, KDE has a frontend for it as well"
May 20 18:11:32 <muthu> ok
May 20 18:11:34 <isaac> ops, right, I didn't see that :P
May 20 18:11:36 <Dougie187> heh
May 20 18:11:53 <Dougie187> muthu, you might as well convert
May 20 18:12:02 <Dougie187> you will get a lot more help. lol
May 20 18:12:11 <muthu> ubuntu seems to be the common sense
May 20 18:12:19 <Dougie187> yup
May 20 18:12:34 <Dougie187> i hear mint is good too
May 20 18:13:34 <Dougie187> damn. ubuntu.com gets twice as many hits and the next highest linux distro
May 20 18:13:45 <Dougie187> well ~twice
May 20 18:14:05 <Dougie187> more like 1.6
May 20 18:14:41 <isaac> Dougie187: yep, it's the popular kid now
May 20 18:14:52 <Dougie187> that it is.
May 20 18:15:01 <Dougie187> im even getting my mom to switch from windows.
May 20 18:15:01 <Dougie187> lol
May 20 18:15:29 <isaac> my mum has been using debian for a couple of years
May 20 18:15:35 <Dougie187> nice
May 20 18:15:39 <Dougie187> but is she computer savy?
May 20 18:17:37 <raboof> so if I understand correctly, Google promised the android source will be released under ASF, but right now it's an ARMv5 binary?
May 20 18:18:16 <raboof> or has that changed?
May 20 18:18:18 <Dougie187> its not being released until handsets come out and probably the ADCs are over.
May 20 18:19:53 <raboof> ok - presumably that's to give android-endorsing phone makers a head-start over hardware that's available right now and could technically run android?
May 20 18:19:57 <raboof> or?
May 20 18:20:26 <Dougie187> i would say thats probably a good assumption
May 20 18:20:31 <Dougie187> sicne they are partnered with the OHA
May 20 18:20:47 <Dougie187> they want the OHA to be able to develop handsets and release them before people dump it on their own phones.
May 20 18:21:49 <raboof> right. can't say I like it, but I guess to make friends in industry one has to make compromises :)
May 20 18:22:05 <Dougie187> yeah, and at least its going to get released at some point.
May 20 18:22:19 <morrildl_> Dougie187: no, the ADCs are not a gate on the source drop
May 20 18:22:30 <Dougie187> just handsets then?
May 20 18:22:40 <morrildl_> Dougie187: that's the plan
May 20 18:22:42 <Dougie187> k
May 20 18:22:51 <Dougie187> i knew handsets, but i thought i had heard ADC at some point.
May 20 18:22:58 <Dougie187> so then the source will be available for ADC2.
May 20 18:23:05 <morrildl_> ADC 2 is also planned to begin when handsets are available
May 20 18:23:09 <Dougie187> yeah
May 20 18:23:15 <morrildl_> so both are related to handset launch in some way
May 20 18:23:20 <morrildl_> which may be what you were thinking of
May 20 18:23:41 <Dougie187> by ADC2 starting, do you mean submissions will be due? or rules and what not are released?
May 20 18:23:47 <morrildl_> the latter
May 20 18:23:49 <Dougie187> ok
May 20 18:23:53 * raboof doesn't see how anyone could be inconvenienced by the sources being available before ADC ends
May 20 18:24:11 <Dougie187> heh too bad you werent here about an hour ago
May 20 18:24:12 <raboof> so that makes sense
May 20 18:24:17 <Dougie187> you probably would have an idea.
May 20 18:24:25 <raboof> o :)
May 20 18:24:30 <morrildl_> basically the mail goal of ADC1 is to get a few apps ready for launch, and the goal of ADC2 is to get a few more ready once there are devices to work with
May 20 18:24:31 <raboof> care to fill me in? :)
May 20 18:24:34 <morrildl_> that's the high-level goal
May 20 18:24:47 <Dougie187> hey morrildl_ are the same judges going to be judging adc2?
May 20 18:24:53 <morrildl_> Dougie187: no idea
May 20 18:25:02 <morrildl_> We don't even know if it will have the same structure
May 20 18:25:02 <Dougie187> raboof i guess it could have some "secrets" that OHA members don't want the public to know about
May 20 18:25:17 <Dougie187> potentially support for hardware and what not that they dont want released.
May 20 18:25:34 <Dougie187> morrildl_: oh ok. heh hopefully not so many social networking apps will win.
May 20 18:25:44 <Dougie187> morrildl_: but i have an idea why that happened.
May 20 18:26:03 <morrildl_> *shrug* it happened because social networking is hot these days, and because the judges are human
May 20 18:26:25 <Dougie187> did every judge see every app?
May 20 18:26:37 <tale_> Dougie187, no
May 20 18:26:38 <morrildl_> no, every judge saw around 65 or so apps, IIRC
May 20 18:26:47 <Dougie187> thats what i think caused it.
May 20 18:26:50 <Dougie187> presonally
May 20 18:26:50 <tale_> there is a good write up on the blog that has the details
May 20 18:26:54 <Dougie187> yeah
May 20 18:26:58 <Dougie187> i dont read a lot of blogs.
May 20 18:27:01 <Dougie187> either way.
May 20 18:27:05 <tale_> it's not a simple problem
May 20 18:27:24 <tale_> lots of submissions and they wanted to have at least 4 judges per app
May 20 18:27:24 <Dougie187> true.
May 20 18:27:29 <Dougie187> yeah.
May 20 18:27:37 <tale_> it's worth the read
May 20 18:27:45 <tale_> just a sec and I'll grab the link
May 20 18:27:56 <morrildl_> Dougie187: well, the apps were randomly distributed.  There were a high percentage of social-app submissions, and that appears in the results
May 20 18:28:04 <Dougie187> yeah
May 20 18:28:11 <morrildl_> http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/05/challenge-in-more-than-one-way.html
May 20 18:28:16 <tale_> thanks
May 20 18:28:23 * morrildl_ has it pretty handy ;)
May 20 18:28:43 <Dougie187> i also think that a lot of judges might have been looking for specific apps, and every group of judges picked a similar app
May 20 18:28:46 <convivial> Hi!
May 20 18:28:48 <Dougie187> that was different.
May 20 18:28:51 <convivial> ummmm
May 20 18:28:52 <convivial> is there a standard for package names for "individual developers"?
May 20 18:28:55 <Dougie187> i dont know if that makes sense or not.
May 20 18:30:27 <raboof> that's funny - if there were a lot of similar (=> social networking) apps of the same quality, you'd expect votes to spread evenly among them, giving them less votes on average
May 20 18:31:04 <Dougie187> what if ever judge only saw one of them
May 20 18:31:13 <Dougie187> but liked the idea so much they gave them 40 points.
May 20 18:31:23 <Dougie187> then those apps are like the highest rated automatically
May 20 18:31:27 <Dougie187> every*
May 20 18:39:33 <Dougie187> morrildl: that was a good post
May 20 18:39:57 <morrildl> Dougie187: thx
May 20 18:40:06 <Dougie187> i like how you handled outliers.
May 20 18:40:52 <Dougie187> the prizes in ADC2 are the same as in ADC1 right?
May 20 18:41:43 <tale_> no, more money
May 20 18:42:11 <tale_> however, I was under the impression that they were limited to the 50 adc1 winners.  I may be wrong
May 20 18:42:36 <tale_> well, what I meant to say was that only the 50 adc1 winners could compete in adc2
May 20 18:42:43 <tale_> but I'm not sure
May 20 18:43:27 <Dougie187> wrong.
May 20 18:43:28 <Dougie187> i know that
May 20 18:43:32 <Dougie187> your thinking Phase two of ADC1
May 20 18:43:40 <tale_> ok
May 20 18:43:43 <Dougie187> they have ADC2 as well. and i believe the prizes for that are the same as in ADC1
May 20 18:43:51 <Dougie187> they just dont know how it will be set up yet.
May 20 18:44:05 <Dougie187> ADC2 doesnt start until handsets are released though
May 20 19:41:21 <jasta> a thought occurs
May 20 19:41:36 <jasta> AndroidScan, and probably several others, have made public announcements that they would like to go open source
May 20 19:41:47 <jasta> i assume with this NDA development that Google has denied them that option?
May 20 19:42:01 <jasta> at what point will they be free from the NDA to open their application?
May 20 19:47:48 <zhobbs_> that's true...can't be open source in phase 2
May 20 19:48:17 <raboof> wow, that sucks. how come?
May 20 19:48:51 <Dougie187> i would assume they would be ok after the adc is over.
May 20 19:49:55 <jasta> Dougie187: uhh, really?  you assume that the NDA expires after the ADC?
May 20 19:50:12 <jasta> i assume it would expire when handsets launch
May 20 19:50:31 <jasta> could be several months under the gun, with no option to move your app into the community
May 20 19:51:31 <zhobbs_> you are allowed to have as many members sign the NDA as you want
May 20 19:51:32 <Dougie187> true
May 20 19:51:40 <zhobbs_> but still can't make it "open"
May 20 19:52:33 <Dougie187> you could get the world to sign your nda
May 20 19:52:39 <Dougie187> then its "open"
May 20 19:52:50 <jasta> zhobbs_: except that with an open source app, you'd have to negotiate with the developer that you want to contribute before you can even see source
May 20 19:53:23 <zhobbs_> yep
May 20 19:55:18 <f00f-> the NDA doesn't expire from my quick glance over it
May 20 19:55:22 <jasta> so, what would then prevent that developer from allowing anyone who e-mails them to get the NDA?
May 20 19:55:31 <jasta> prevents*
May 20 19:56:04 <zhobbs_> can the project be penalized for one of it's developer's leaking the sdk?
May 20 19:56:45 <jasta> right, exactly.  so what level of trust must the original author have with any contributors?
May 20 19:56:53 <zhobbs_> a lot
May 20 19:56:59 <jasta> so, how then is that an open source project?
May 20 19:57:17 <zhobbs_> it's not
May 20 19:57:32 <zhobbs_> which sucks
May 20 19:57:37 <jasta> then what's the point in countering my claim that open source projects cannot be such anymore.
May 20 19:57:40 <zhobbs_> as far as I can tell though, none of the 50 are open source
May 20 19:57:43 <jasta> whereas previously there was nothing to indicate that would be a problem
May 20 19:57:49 <jasta> in fact, i had planned to make my app open source regardless of outcome
May 20 19:57:52 <jasta> apparently that was impossible
May 20 19:58:08 <jasta> zhobbs_: AndroidScan claims that it is to be GPLv3.
May 20 19:58:14 <jasta> but is not currently
May 20 19:58:40 <zhobbs_> yeah, i bet they have to wait until after adc...then port to latest public sdk and release
May 20 19:58:56 <jasta> which will be m5-rc15.
May 20 19:59:04 <Dougie187> or wait til handset release
May 20 19:59:12 <jasta> (or maybe even longer!?)
May 20 19:59:16 <jasta> who knows with an NDA
May 20 20:01:10 <jasta> this is so fucking stupid
May 20 20:01:49 <raboof> if someone releases something as GPLv3, every recipient must be able to use the code unencumbered by NDA's or whatnot, unless I'm mistaken
May 20 20:02:25 <raboof> so if this NDA is really permanent, AndroidScan or whoever won't be able to release it to anyone under GPLv3, whether he/she wants it or not, afaics
May 20 20:03:20 <jasta> raboof: right, we know that.
May 20 20:03:35 <zhobbs_> raboof: yeah, it's bs
May 20 20:04:02 <raboof> jasta: i was just checking whether my interpretation was right, not neccessarily trying to tell you something new :)
May 20 20:04:14 <jasta> which means Google has suddenly imposed new rules requiring every winner (who wishes to still compete) be closed source.  *INTERESTING*
May 20 20:05:59 <zhobbs_> I'm inquiring about what GPL projects should do for phase II
May 20 20:11:08 <davidw> so
May 20 20:11:12 <davidw> what did you all figure out?
May 20 20:11:28 <Dougie187> NDAs cause fights
May 20 20:31:06 <hap> war i d say
May 20 20:47:21 <jasta> we should put on a demonstration at I/O.  "flag burning" with NDAs :)
May 20 20:47:42 <volmarias> enjoy being escorted out
May 20 20:49:25 <jasta> perhaps i'm used to it :)
May 20 20:50:59 <dmoffett_>   Just like Google has to cooperate with us they have to cooperate with the cell networks.    There are probably some features that they want to keep under wraps to gain a competitive advantage.  Imo you really can't hold that against Google or the networks.
May 20 20:51:31 <jasta> The worst offense here is that Google has led us along.
May 20 20:51:52 <davidw> jasta, mmmmm that implies conscious thought
May 20 20:51:55 <jasta> We've been begging for the new SDK for over a month now.  And even then, why no announcement early on that this might be a pretty bumpy legal ride?
May 20 20:52:16 <davidw> generally, when corporations fuck up, it's because of bureaucratic blundering and left and right hands not being coordinated
May 20 20:52:29 <dmoffett_> If they don't allow us access to the sdk then I agree we have have been had.
May 20 20:54:40 <jasta> Also, I will reiterate that this has raised concerns that the SDK will ever be fully open source.
May 20 20:55:02 <dmoffett_> Yet they have not broken their word yet.
May 20 20:55:19 <jasta> I appreciate that relevant source is better than the nooks and crannies of all the proprietary weirdness, but I still find that underhanded to not discuss this publicly.
May 20 20:55:22 <davidw> jasta, we knew that won't happen for a while in any case
May 20 20:55:23 <zhobbs_> jasta: dan assures me everything above the kernel will be open
May 20 20:55:41 <davidw> that's what I've heard too
May 20 20:56:17 <jasta> Dan also assured me in January that Google would not do something stupid like bar open source projects from competing in the ADC.
May 20 20:56:37 <Dougie187> well dont know they will
May 20 20:56:42 <jasta> Despite my concerns that the rules would otherwise prevent or discourage that.
May 20 20:57:15 <jasta> Dougie187: Don't we?  Has anyone read the NDA yet?  What does it say about releasing your source code written against the new SD?
May 20 20:57:18 <jasta> SDK*
May 20 21:00:56 <jasonchen> jasta: are you still coming to Google I/O?
May 20 21:01:39 <jasta> Yeah, to kick some ass now ;)
May 20 21:01:48 <dmoffett_> It's like Churchill said:  Google is the worse form of government, except for all the others.  Or was that democracy.? :-)
May 20 21:02:32 <jasonchen> good.  let's talk when you're there.  i don't expect that we'll change your mind, but i think i can address some of the concerns that you've been expressing.
May 20 21:05:30 <jasta> Well I look forward to it.
May 20 21:05:48 <jasonchen> in the meantime, i'm hoping that we'll alsobe able address some of the questions/concerns that everyone's been expressing here in the channel via a blog post as well.
May 20 21:06:28 <jasta> Though I am most upset because I feel that the community as a whole has been somewhat misled by Google's silence.  I don't think that can be reconciled fully.
May 20 21:07:02 <davidw> jasta, they've a big behemoth corp - give them a few days:-)
May 20 21:07:02 <jasonchen> i completely understand.  we can do better communicating with the community and i'm working with morrildl and others to improve that.
May 20 21:07:15 <davidw> they've -> they're
May 20 21:07:28 <jasonchen> it's going to take time and it won't be perfect right away, but we do _want_ to be better
May 20 21:07:34 <jasta> davidw: The length of time that they knew an NDA would be requird should be approximately how long we knew.  We're not just the mindless press here; we slaved for them.
May 20 21:08:03 <davidw> I'm still confused as to what's what, and what's confirmed
May 20 21:08:16 <davidw> and what might still be open for discussion
May 20 21:08:29 <jasonchen> davidw: i'm hoping that a blog post will help clarify
May 20 21:08:52 <davidw> yeah, that would help
May 20 21:10:51 <dmoffett_> jasonchen: As long as we can all have fair access to the sdk.
May 20 21:12:41 <dmoffett_> Maybe we were not selected for the 50 but that should not mean we get our hands tied.  My blood pressure goes up when I even think about it.
May 20 21:15:41 <jasonchen> dmoffett_: dan and i are seeing what we can do. there are concerns (some that you've heard, some that aren't public) that the team is trying to balance.
May 20 21:21:36 <jasta> dmoffett_: Agreed, Google needs to consider our health and well-being ;)
May 20 21:21:53 <dmoffett_> At the risk of repeating myself.  I am willing to sign a NDA.  My guess there are others as well.
May 20 21:22:35 <jasta> What was your project btw?  I can't recall :)
May 20 21:22:45 <dmoffett_> VizzVox Player.
May 20 21:23:31 <jasta> what is it?
May 20 21:24:28 <dmoffett_> The part we submitted was a location based Real Estate Application.
May 20 21:24:41 <dmoffett_> Online Real Estate tours.
May 20 21:24:57 <dmoffett_> The player is more general than that though.
May 20 21:25:34 <dmoffett_> http://www.vizzvox.com/en-US/info/android_player
May 20 21:26:09 <dmoffett_> After the contest we added an intent to allow other to use the player.
May 20 21:26:25 <zhobbs> jasonchen: thanks for helping calm the situation, hopefully you guys can come up with a fair solution
May 20 21:27:33 <davidw> yeah
May 20 21:32:49 <jasonchen> zhobbs: yw.  not sure i've done anything yet, but i'm hopeful that we'll be able to figure something out.
May 20 21:39:07 <dmoffett_> If you need help figuring it out just give me a call.  I have some ideas.  :-)
May 20 21:40:07 <jasonchen> dmoffett: i'll have sergey give you a call ;-)
May 20 21:42:11 <dmoffett_> who is that?
May 20 21:42:21 <dmoffett_> :-)
May 20 21:43:27 <Hai-Fai> some unnecessary guy that invented something plenty of years ago, you don't wanna hear more..
May 20 21:43:37 <Hai-Fai> surname was Brin or something like that
May 20 21:44:10 <Hai-Fai> but now it's time to get some sleep, nn fellas
May 20 21:44:13 <dmoffett_> Ask him if he is landing his jet at Moffett field yet?
May 20 21:47:54 <davidw> sleep time for me...
May 20 21:48:35 <davidw> jasonchen, have sergey give me a call too - but have him send me an Android phone to receive it on first
May 20 21:49:00 * cutmasta is away (away)
May 20 22:08:07 <jasta> davanum: hehe
May 20 22:08:10 <jasta> err, davidw
May 20 22:41:01 <Dougie187> nice. got my laptop back
May 20 22:41:08 <dmoffett_> nice
May 20 22:41:50 <f00f-> nice
May 20 22:57:26 <Dougie187> hell yeah.
May 20 22:57:26 <Dougie187> heh
May 20 22:57:36 <Dougie187> well time to clean up some crap.
May 20 22:57:37 <Dougie187> bbl
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed May 21 02:59:56 2008