**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu May 22 02:59:57 2008 May 22 03:00:18 michaelnovakjr__: yeah, google's still scarce on details ;) May 22 03:00:34 hey jasta May 22 03:00:42 sup May 22 03:06:53 uhh May 22 04:46:38 yep, been quiet in here as of late May 22 04:47:20 cooking & jamming to music May 22 04:47:23 no coding tonight, i hope :P May 22 04:47:38 i haven't coded specifically on android in over a month now May 22 04:47:51 i was waiting for the next SDK hehe May 22 06:08:32 SOOOO May 22 06:11:03 yooooooooo May 22 06:11:30 how is progress coming muthu? May 22 06:11:44 f00f-: nothing much May 22 06:11:52 still taking it easy May 22 06:11:53 due date soon muthu May 22 06:11:57 better move it May 22 06:12:10 dueynz: no, we have some months left May 22 06:12:18 maybe i read it wrong May 22 06:12:20 june or july May 22 06:12:26 july May 22 06:12:28 ha May 22 06:12:29 ah May 22 06:13:09 SUSaiyan: bring back the light ;) May 22 06:13:56 cool May 22 06:14:11 f00f-: how's yours? May 22 06:14:29 muthu: conference call right now, making a game plan May 22 06:14:34 still working on a TODO list! May 22 06:14:42 how many in your team? May 22 06:14:47 three May 22 06:14:52 cool May 22 06:15:04 have you joined that adc winners group? May 22 06:15:48 no, i wasn't aware there was one May 22 06:16:05 http://groups.google.com/group/adc-round-i-winners May 22 06:16:52 any reason to join? May 22 06:17:16 how many members currently? May 22 06:17:21 20 May 22 06:17:43 would be useful, yes May 22 06:17:49 to clarify a few things May 22 06:17:56 like nda etc., May 22 06:18:07 uhm May 22 06:18:13 it would be best to clarify the NDA directly with Google. May 22 06:18:20 heh, i already mailed my NDA May 22 06:18:21 :( May 22 06:18:23 jasta: right May 22 06:18:26 it is very important that if you have questions you have them clearly answered. May 22 06:18:31 f00f-: everyone did May 22 06:18:52 jasta: right, its more like passing on information May 22 06:19:09 like what? you all had access to the same information. May 22 06:19:35 right, but if you need to discuss about any issues May 22 06:19:39 concerns etc., May 22 06:20:18 again, that definitely needs to be taken up with Google, the company which initiated the contract you have agreed to. May 22 06:20:37 jasta: agree, google needs to clarify May 22 06:20:49 how your peers interpret the NDA is likely to wildly differ from how google's legal department interprets it, and as such, they alone should be contacted. May 22 06:20:49 dont you usually clarify before you sign? May 22 06:21:07 sensible people do, yes ;) May 22 06:21:16 n/a for me May 22 06:21:18 haha May 22 06:25:17 hey, who need to share room for google io? May 22 06:25:32 just that one day.. may 28 night May 22 06:25:52 lol are you serious? :) May 22 06:26:20 jasta: yeah May 22 06:26:27 come on man May 22 06:26:32 or let me into your room May 22 06:26:38 haha May 22 06:26:44 you don't find that kind of strange? May 22 06:26:49 nope May 22 06:26:59 i keep it simple and straight May 22 06:27:02 sharing a hotel room with a stranger? May 22 06:27:28 i consider you folks, buddies May 22 06:27:32 since we know each other here May 22 06:28:08 well here, sure people we trust May 22 06:28:13 well not really May 22 06:28:17 only those that talk May 22 06:28:20 f00f-: i know May 22 06:28:24 even those, could be putting on a good play May 22 06:28:42 i dunno, that seems strange to me. knowing someone on irc is insufficient to let them sleep 6 feet from me. May 22 06:28:50 that's one big difference between india and us May 22 06:29:01 jasta: lol May 22 06:29:11 well, you certainly won't be able to hold f00f's hand :) May 22 06:29:17 haha May 22 06:29:26 i doubt it, anyway :) May 22 06:29:52 i will readily welcome any of you folks if you are in chennai May 22 06:29:56 its all a cultural thing May 22 06:30:47 jasta: how many of you staying together? May 22 06:31:03 just 1, my friend and former roommate. May 22 06:31:09 i have another 6 hrs for my flight May 22 06:31:19 should be fun May 22 06:31:28 jasta: i'll share man May 22 06:31:32 no, you won't. May 22 06:32:38 i'm a plenty social guy, but no, you can't sleep either on the floor in my room or, god forbid, in my bed. May 22 06:32:41 that is too weird for me man May 22 06:32:50 haha May 22 06:32:56 cool, i understand May 22 06:33:39 jasta: how many parties you are planning to attend? May 22 06:33:46 bar hopping? May 22 06:33:58 "none", i'm just gonna bounce and drink with Fred May 22 06:34:05 ha! May 22 06:34:29 it looks like i might be with pawalls too, but maybe he's got some bigger plans May 22 06:34:45 who's pawalls? May 22 06:34:53 he's in this channel ;) May 22 06:35:00 pawalls: hi May 22 06:35:15 i've never seen pawalls talk :) May 22 06:35:38 he lurks, like most of the Google folks. May 22 06:35:46 Google should have arranged some accomodation for atleast foreigners May 22 06:36:15 they did secure a rate at nearby hotels May 22 06:36:19 what more could they do? May 22 06:36:23 its the same jasta May 22 06:36:31 what's the same? May 22 06:36:35 they said discounts, but its like 200$ May 22 06:36:40 where's the discount there? May 22 06:36:43 that may well be a discount. May 22 06:36:51 muthu: in San Francisco it is a discount May 22 06:36:55 San Francisco is an absurdly expensive city. May 22 06:36:58 it's a very expensive city May 22 06:37:05 oh ok May 22 06:37:11 I pay $2,600 of rent every month May 22 06:37:18 oh man!! May 22 06:37:20 oh my god, are you serious? May 22 06:37:35 romainguy__: you are out of your mind! May 22 06:37:50 just you? or split with roommates/wife? May 22 06:37:58 I split with my girlfriend May 22 06:38:02 damn, i believe that though May 22 06:38:05 the house i rent costs $2160/mo for all 4 of us! May 22 06:38:07 where in SF romain? May 22 06:38:13 we used to pay $1,100 each in a house in the presidio May 22 06:38:16 with 2 other roommates May 22 06:38:16 splitting with 4 makes some sense May 22 06:38:17 and i live within Seattle city limits, about 4 minutes from downtown. May 22 06:38:21 f00f-: amrket & powell :)) May 22 06:38:27 hahaha, nice May 22 06:38:27 marjet May 22 06:38:27 market May 22 06:38:28 no wonder lol May 22 06:38:31 but even so May 22 06:38:34 the area is expensive May 22 06:38:46 a 1 bedroom in Mountain View easily costs $1,500/mo May 22 06:38:47 San Francisco is crazy. Totally unjustified. May 22 06:39:02 wonder who lives in SF? May 22 06:39:23 so i hope google has some after hours stuff planned for us May 22 06:39:36 is it not on may 28? May 22 06:39:42 i know we always have a good time when nokia or ctia folks are in town May 22 06:40:04 f00f-: yes, its on may 28 May 22 06:40:19 hope goog lives up to its standard :) May 22 06:40:23 last november, there was ctia and nokia s60 night happening, ruby skye was open bar all night May 22 06:40:36 all night? May 22 06:40:39 wow May 22 06:40:41 this upscale overprice-cover-usually club May 22 06:40:50 BUT May 22 06:40:59 it was only for ctia attendees May 22 06:41:04 and their exhibitors May 22 06:41:04 i actually would prefer to split and do my own thing, unless something unusually cool is going on May 22 06:41:08 and hookups :P May 22 06:41:18 yeah it was packed, so not too great May 22 06:41:22 free drinks... so what May 22 06:41:49 the goog after hours will not be crowded i guess May 22 06:41:50 these geek-sponsored deals are usually so lame. nerds don't know how to roll, and there will be lots of them. May 22 06:42:05 jasta: then you should be there May 22 06:42:12 well, i wouldnt underestimate the industry :P May 22 06:42:30 jasta: funny, cause I always have quite the contrary experience at every conference I attend May 22 06:43:04 i guess it depends on the crowd. most of my friends are engineers May 22 06:43:18 but that's not to say that there aren't plenty of people in the industry that are super lame :) May 22 06:43:32 and plenty that are not May 22 06:43:39 it shoule be good, if we get a mix May 22 06:43:49 only time will tell May 22 06:43:52 but i am not just going down there for I/O, trying to visit some with my friend that i haven't seen in a while May 22 06:44:21 i don't blame you jasta May 22 06:44:26 i would hide from these guys too May 22 06:44:29 ;) May 22 06:44:59 in fact, with these recent developments on Android's immediate future, I cannot say that I/O will offer me any value (at least on the Android front) May 22 06:45:45 you should go along and stand on a chair and let it all out May 22 06:45:50 haha May 22 06:45:57 have that unconference thing May 22 06:46:42 i did previously mention getting drunk and kicked out. but i was only joking. May 22 06:47:00 about getting kicked out. ;) May 22 06:47:03 haha May 22 06:47:45 has anyone been to Thirsty Bear in SF? May 22 06:47:55 raidfive: is that good? May 22 06:47:58 I heard it is a pretty good pub May 22 06:48:00 never been there May 22 06:48:20 pawalls has promised me there is a bar nearby to the convention center that will let you buy 40's in a brown paper bag. May 22 06:48:21 i keep hearing about it from Matt Raible May 22 06:48:25 few blocks from the conference May 22 06:48:27 that is my scene when i'm out drinking ;) May 22 06:49:26 40's.. you mean 40 beers? May 22 06:50:05 allright, getting ready May 22 06:50:09 see you all in SF May 22 06:50:11 bye May 22 06:50:40 muthu, must like to get ready extra early May 22 06:52:57 the Thirsty Bear has good beer indeed May 22 06:53:04 and it's across the street from the Moscone center May 22 06:53:22 so I've heard ... I plan on going there for sure May 22 13:19:25 hola! May 22 13:30:09 oh hello May 22 13:30:38 I discovered something interesting today: Float.MIN_VALUE is not negative, but the smallest possible positive float value. May 22 13:33:50 do u expected -Float.MAX_VALUE ? May 22 13:39:04 pretty much. May 22 13:39:19 I was getting rather annoyed that my test case was failing for no apparent reason until I looked it up. May 22 14:15:43 hello May 22 14:17:41 I have some questions about adb, do you think adb is usable with external devices ? May 22 14:45:52 hows everyone doing today? May 22 14:52:22 alright May 22 14:52:39 NiZoX: it probably will be. May 22 14:57:52 ...still nothing out of google :\ May 22 14:58:46 lol May 22 14:59:37 thus begins jasta's long descent into depression May 22 15:14:45 * cutmasta is away (away) May 22 15:28:40 morrildl: *poke* May 22 15:29:10 can we expect an announcement clarifying the situation before I/O? May 22 15:45:16 volmarias: adb allows only local emulator May 22 15:46:38 I try to forward port 5555 May 22 16:10:14 NiZoX: then I guess you know more than me. I know that it's technically possible to remote debug a device, since I can do it w/ a blackberry. May 22 16:34:43 is everyone having a good thursday? May 22 16:35:33 yes! May 22 16:35:37 vacation \o/ May 22 16:36:03 you're on vacation? May 22 16:36:07 yes May 22 16:36:11 and here? :) May 22 16:36:11 leaving today for France May 22 16:36:17 just woke up May 22 16:36:32 i just found out taht friend i mentioned yesterday, who is fluent in French, is moving to France next month. May 22 16:36:36 what are you doing in france? May 22 16:36:37 permanently May 22 16:36:52 Dougie187: going home May 22 16:37:06 ohh May 22 16:37:07 for how long? May 22 16:37:43 till June 3rd May 22 16:37:48 that sounds like fun May 22 16:38:06 at least I won't get yelled at by jasta at Google I/O ;-) May 22 16:38:22 that is always a plus. May 22 16:40:05 lol May 22 16:40:11 you mean kidnapped. May 22 16:40:15 and potentially killed. May 22 16:40:39 they will have to change the term from going postal to going android May 22 17:45:32 argh May 22 17:48:37 i wish they'd just make an announcement already, sheesh May 22 17:51:46 That interview was delayed until tomorrow (now with someone else) but is there something I can ask them that they might have an answer for Jasta? May 22 17:53:42 Really I don't know nothing from nothing but No from Google seems like it would not take much time and Yes would take a bit of time. May 22 17:54:19 Only if "Yes" is not really "Yes" at all. May 22 17:54:29 Only if it's more like "Maybe" :) May 22 17:55:31 not much to do other than wait. :-( May 22 17:58:14 my patience runs out by I/O, because i don't think it's fair to let anyone believe android is this great open platform worth pursuing until after this issue is made clear. May 22 17:58:30 and i'm sure they'll talk it up with all this propaganda there. May 22 18:02:49 jasta: I like the platform enough to give them the benefit of the doubt but I certainly sympathize with your frustration. May 22 18:11:44 ask morrildl jasta. May 22 18:11:46 he just came in May 22 18:20:20 or not. May 22 18:29:16 i dont even know if i should work on getting any apps to work. May 22 18:50:29 hey jasta are you still working on five? May 22 18:50:37 or are you at a standstill until the new SDK? May 22 19:08:09 i am still working on Five, but i have paused all the Android pieces. May 22 19:08:24 my system, remember, is generalized. i'm working on a Rhythmbox proof of concept plugin. May 22 19:08:30 so i can listen to my music while i'm at work May 22 19:14:51 actually, the Android piece has been paused since just shortly after the 14th. I was waiting on the next SDK so that i could start redesigning certain things like my MediaPlayer usage May 22 19:20:56 well bust. May 22 19:21:04 lol i just watched the android application video. May 22 19:21:07 and realised it was morrildl May 22 19:21:21 and then. my dog peed on the floor May 22 19:21:23 and i broke a cup May 22 19:22:07 and broke your leg May 22 19:24:47 just about May 22 19:24:49 and my computer again May 22 19:24:49 almost May 22 19:41:22 i wonder when SC2 is going to come out. May 22 20:36:05 wow, that new photos feature of google maps is gangster. May 22 20:36:08 i love it May 22 20:36:23 too bad like half of the photos in washington or of freaking mount rainier :) May 22 20:41:14 jasta, well, it was too rainy to take pictures of anything else, maybe May 22 21:13:18 anyone from malaysia? May 22 21:28:46 muthu May 22 21:28:48 where you at May 22 21:28:57 in transit? May 22 21:29:11 whoops May 22 23:33:28 yargggh May 22 23:33:34 still nothing. *jasta smash* May 22 23:59:46 I wonder what the power of the jasta smash is like May 23 00:00:26 whats a jasta smash? May 23 00:00:31 oh May 23 00:00:32 nm May 23 00:09:09 Hello Jason. May 23 00:09:15 How are you this evening? May 23 00:09:31 * jasta grins awkwardly May 23 00:09:34 lol May 23 00:09:53 when are you planning on getting a rhythmbox plugin for five done? May 23 00:09:54 lol May 23 00:10:07 i dunno, the plugin framework for Rhythmbox is really fantastic May 23 00:10:11 so honestly, it could be pretty quick. May 23 00:10:19 that would be sweet May 23 00:10:22 i would totally use it May 23 00:10:25 like a month, realistically May 23 00:10:31 then i wouldnt need to waste disk space on my laptop for music May 23 00:10:53 ff2 rc1 is out. May 23 00:10:59 yeah, that's an awesome advantage of the Five client on a laptop or desktop machine. You can just wipe the cache to save space. May 23 00:11:25 yeah May 23 00:11:41 it only caches the music you want to play right? May 23 00:12:01 yeah May 23 00:12:07 well, the music you have played, more precisely May 23 00:12:22 yeah May 23 00:12:25 true. May 23 00:12:32 i more meant that it doesnt cache everything. May 23 00:13:31 it will try, eventually May 23 00:13:35 i mean, if you play everything :) May 23 00:13:38 and have the sapce for it May 23 00:13:38 ... May 23 00:13:48 what does it do if you run out of space? May 23 00:14:05 the clients are configured to preserve a minumum free on the hosting disk. May 23 00:14:16 so, you could say that you want to always make sure there are 10GB free, or 20% free, or whatever. May 23 00:14:30 and the client, when it reaches that boundary, will start deleting from the cache based on an LRU policy May 23 00:14:31 can you also specify a max for the cache? May 23 00:14:43 never, such a feature would be impossible to implement May 23 00:14:49 why? May 23 00:14:51 i'm joking May 23 00:14:53 of course you can ;) May 23 00:14:58 ... May 23 00:15:10 your name should be jerkface03 May 23 00:15:12 i plan to provide sensible controls, though the default will be some portion of the disk free. May 23 00:15:22 ok May 23 00:15:47 i would love to use it at some point. May 23 00:15:50 i think it looks sweet May 23 00:15:55 first i have to work on installing the server. May 23 00:16:34 http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9949793-39.html -- btw, I am mad again today. May 23 00:16:51 lol when are you not mad? May 23 00:17:03 this platform is fubar'd. if not all the source is released, then only "official" OHA handsets will even be possible in the wild. May 23 00:17:28 because if you can't compile it all for the necessary target architecture, then hobbyists are screwed. May 23 00:17:48 this is exactly why nobody has been able to successfully hack it onto an existing phone already. May 23 00:18:02 yeah May 23 00:18:11 the set of hardware that can support it is very narrow with a binary-only release. May 23 00:18:22 and so, even if 99.9% of it was released open source, that last .1% will kill you. May 23 00:18:47 you either won't be able to use it on the port, which may be critical if any of it deals with the proprietary carrier-specific GSM stuff May 23 00:18:51 which it ALMOST CERTAINLY WILL May 23 00:19:04 ...or, you simply won't be able to port it. May 23 00:19:23 which confirms my suspicion that android will not be the hobbyists dream that has many people excited. May 23 00:20:35 one sec lemme read this. May 23 00:25:24 most of the article is fine, and what many of us know already May 23 00:25:31 yeah May 23 00:25:38 its really long. May 23 00:25:39 it's just that little bit about 8 of 11 million lines will be open sourced. May 23 00:25:42 what part makes you mad? May 23 00:25:54 not having the ENTIRE project open sourced means that hobbyists will be crippled. May 23 00:25:57 the portability will be ruined May 23 00:26:23 that blows. May 23 00:26:25 you can reasonably assume the parts to always remain closed will be the big, important, mysterious pieces of cell phone software. May 23 00:26:51 why would they not open source everything. May 23 00:26:54 that seems pointless May 23 00:27:12 i hope an effort is started to reverse engineer and bust those portions of the code. May 23 00:27:24 just to give the finger to the OHA :) May 23 00:27:56 i bet someone would May 23 00:28:03 thats really stupid if they dont open source the whole thing. May 23 00:28:10 because the kinda defeats the purpose of being open source May 23 00:28:13 Android may well serve as a useful platform for reverse engineering. With fine control of the platform stack's behaviour, and custom hardware, it may make it very easy to figure out what that code is doing May 23 00:28:21 Dougie187: Yes, precisely. May 23 00:28:49 Especially, again, if those closed pieces are critical to actually using a phone. May 23 00:28:58 Since that's obviously the important part. May 23 00:29:32 Google has screwed up everything. They should have never even claimed this project ot be open source. May 23 00:29:56 they should marked it as semi-open source. May 23 00:30:51 jasta: re http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9949793-39.html, why did you expect it to be any different with Google - they are a company solely concerned with increasing advertising revenue, they are not an altruistic open source community project. May 23 00:30:53 market* May 23 00:31:07 My biggest complaint about all of this is that they have outright deceived us now on two very important aspects of this platform. May 23 00:31:18 a) that if you lose the ADC, you are barred from being an early adopter. May 23 00:31:35 b) the platform will spend all its early life as closed source, only to be partially opened. May 23 00:31:55 b) was clearly stated from the start by morrildl May 23 00:32:09 rwhitby: False. May 23 00:32:27 what does a) mean? are they not doing further SDK public releases? May 23 00:32:35 In fact, I have expressed concerns numerous times to specifically Dan that the platform may not be fully open sourced, and also on the timeline of the source release. May 23 00:32:45 His answers have changed drastically, especially in the last 3 months. May 23 00:33:07 rwhitby: Nope, the ADC winners had to sign an NDA in order to get access to new SDK updates. The rest of us are out in the cold with a 3 month old, buggy release from now until launch. May 23 00:33:29 jasta: ok, fully agree with a) then. May 23 00:33:52 jasonchen and morrildl have claimed they will be making an announcement to clarify, but so far all week it has not come. May 23 00:34:06 despite those e-mails going out Monday afternoon. May 23 00:34:24 I suspect their clarification will be just as infuriating as their silence, though. May 23 00:34:32 lol May 23 00:34:40 On b), I think the problem is that the media took a very carefully worded license and commitment by Google (which was never to open all source, onlt that specific bits would be under the Apache license and GPL'd bits would comply with the GPL) and turned that into an expectation that the whole thing would be open source. May 23 00:34:42 The e-mail sent to the ADC winners claims this was done because the SDK releases will be unstable and with bugs. CHOKE ON YOUR LIES GOOGLE! May 23 00:34:43 i agree with you about morrildl's answers changing too May 23 00:35:28 rwhitby: There was no reason to believe the source would be only partially released based on Google's official comments, and clarifications from morrildl and others. May 23 00:35:44 They have mutated their responses as the process moved along, so as to seem that they were always consistent May 23 00:35:55 rwhitby: even from what you say, you would expect that all the source would be open. just some would be Apache License and the rest would be GPL May 23 00:35:56 but they never have been. Initially, it was reasonable to expect full disclosure. May 23 00:36:05 jasta: depends on the definition of what exactly was to be open sourced. May 23 00:36:25 rwhitby: The definition was that Google never specified, but did not confirm or deny anyones suspicions regarding a partially closed platform. May 23 00:36:34 Which I would call a lie by omission. May 23 00:36:34 just the kernel, the VM, the Java SDK, the google apps, the oha member apps, the codecs, all these things are separate things. May 23 00:37:05 ah, omission of things that people want to hear but google doesn't want to say is clear May 23 00:37:06 I bet that not even elements of the kernel will be open sourced. May 23 00:37:27 isnt the kernel linux? May 23 00:37:28 The kernel itself, yes, but nothing protects the modules. May 23 00:37:30 but that's called "strategic marketing", and you should always expect nothing more from a company with shareholders. May 23 00:37:54 rwhitby: Well believe me, I had assumed that partial source was in store for this platform. May 23 00:38:04 But despite my best efforts, that was not confirmed until just now. May 23 00:38:07 jasta: so did I. May 23 00:38:11 from the beginning. May 23 00:38:47 people who drank the cool-aid hype didn't want to believe it though, and google wasn't about to clarify cause that would not be in line with the marketing machine's message May 23 00:38:57 However, to have it confirmed on the wake of my earlier point a) has just further infuriated me :) May 23 00:39:09 i would have expected that everything google developed be open sources. May 23 00:39:20 Dougie187: well, that probably will be true May 23 00:39:27 Dougie187: wow - that's a *really* unjustified expectation May 23 00:39:34 hardly anything that google does is open sourced. May 23 00:39:45 and then manufacturers can make features for use by them not open sourced. May 23 00:39:47 it's just that the things they do open source are really well marketed May 23 00:39:52 i suspect that the OHA members, in particular, are driving more of the proprietary aspect of the platform. May 23 00:40:00 Though it does not excuse Google for getting in bed with them. May 23 00:40:34 jasta: Google is one of them. google is a company just like the others - you should not expect any different behaviour May 23 00:40:54 For the record, I suspect that the ignorance of the OHA will be their undoing. This code is going to be ripped to pieces and many secrets they wanted to protect will become known. May 23 00:41:04 jasta: fully agree May 23 00:41:21 Not releasing source is insufficient to protect trade secrets. May 23 00:41:26 as has happened with every other consumer device that companies wanted to keep secret. May 23 00:41:58 rwhitby: But the degree here will be different, I think. Because the puzzle has so many pieces already in place, it will be much easier to complete. May 23 00:42:18 but that doesn't stop them wanting to do it to reap the financial rewards of that strategy in the short term. shareholders expect returns each quarter, and companies respond to that demand. May 23 00:42:19 And, the reward is great for such a task. Porting a robust software stack to other GSM-based technology would be incredible. May 23 00:43:00 Anyway, I am still mostly pissed about the recent development that the SDK will be protected by an NDA. May 23 00:43:06 that only 50 freaking people can access May 23 00:43:09 yeah, that's just not right. May 23 00:43:18 yeah the NDA thing blows. May 23 00:43:20 rwhitby: Especially given how much energy has been spent by the community already. May 23 00:43:26 although I havent heard anything new about it. May 23 00:43:31 We worked hard to produce apps for the ADC and ultimately for Android. May 23 00:43:37 and then they just slap us down for not winning. May 23 00:43:44 jasta: fully agree with that May 23 00:44:02 my reason for being an early adopter of Android was because I was excited to launch my application on a real handset. May 23 00:44:12 but... May 23 00:44:13 now you cant May 23 00:44:14 I wanted to be fully ready to go when the launch happened. May 23 00:44:25 of course, you could have expected this behaviour, cause the OHA members will want to have better first releases than the community May 23 00:44:38 true. May 23 00:44:41 i never thought of that. May 23 00:44:49 although OHA members are in the ADC May 23 00:44:51 rwhitby: Actually, I did not expect this behaviour. I had expected, all along, that there were two separate trees. May 23 00:44:54 so it's not really a surprise once you realise that google is a company in the OHA, not an altruistic entity for the global good. May 23 00:44:56 one with all this proprietary weirdness May 23 00:45:01 and another which the community could access May 23 00:45:05 i figured that was always so. May 23 00:45:08 apparently i was wrong. May 23 00:45:38 bug fixes and new UI and database APIs are not secret. the community should not be barred from them. May 23 00:45:44 it makes no f'n sense. May 23 00:45:49 the motto is "Do No Evil", not "Always Do Good" ;-) May 23 00:46:09 rwhitby: This upset in particular could not have been predicted, I think. May 23 00:46:46 I was truly surprised to learn that they are discontinuing public releases. This, btw, was never hinted to despite our countless attempts to inquire as to when the next SDK would be available. May 23 00:47:35 The greatest pain is feeling lead on. This greatly damages the communities trust, which is essential to uphold if you intend for them to do any work for you. May 23 00:47:36 jasta: increasing closedness just before OHA member handset releases was always predicted May 23 00:47:57 it's normal market pressures. May 23 00:48:00 rwhitby: Sure, to some degree. Not eliminating releases. May 23 00:48:09 Google as a company will respond just like any other company., May 23 00:48:18 i really dont see the benefit of discontinuing public releases. May 23 00:48:28 There are a lot of things broken in the current SDK, and presumably many new improvements otherwise not secret coming between now and launch May 23 00:48:31 cant they keep proprietary features out of the SDK all together. May 23 00:49:24 It just seems like some retard couldn't figure out branching :) May 23 00:49:57 lol May 23 00:50:07 Though, as sad as it may seem, this is the best we've got in the mobile industry :( May 23 00:50:31 i think the thing that is kinda frustrating about reading that it will be open source, is that dan said earlier this week "We will fully release the source at a later time" or something similar to that May 23 00:50:45 yeah, i recall hearing that as well. May 23 00:51:24 I feel like Google has done a miserable job interfacing with the community on this project. May 23 00:51:51 Which undermines all their attempts to otherwise encourage us to care. May 23 00:52:38 jasta: we can branch plenty; the problem is overhead in maintaining them May 23 00:52:49 jasta: that's why the prize money was required May 23 00:53:07 this is not a normal open source project May 23 00:53:19 jasonchen: if it was open source though, couldnt you adopt some community developers to help in that aspect? May 23 00:53:41 if you need prize money to encourage developers to work on an exciting new platform, then you just know something is going to turn fishy ... May 23 00:54:02 Dougie187: we could if it was open source, but it's not been released as open source yet. May 23 00:54:27 and to be clear, the source will be released, but not until we get the first devices out the door. May 23 00:54:42 100% of the source? May 23 00:54:56 we want the first devices to really set the bar high for anyone else who might take it and ship phones with it. May 23 00:55:10 100% of the source that is required to be released by the licensing at least. You can't expect a company to promise to do more than that. May 23 00:55:23 i understand that. personally i didnt expect the source to be released until handsets came out. May 23 00:55:27 rwhitby: true. May 23 00:55:42 Dougie187: yep. everything that we can release under Apache 2.0, we will. May 23 00:55:53 jasonchen: what about your NDAs? what if someone who signed an NDA wanted to help maintain Branches? May 23 00:55:58 we've released patches already where required under GPL, EPL, and for Webkit. May 23 00:56:10 Remember the OHA is not just Google, so even if Google did want to release source for everything, it's not possible to get all the companies in the OHA to agree to that. May 23 00:56:32 but google could release all the source they develop. May 23 00:56:40 and leave the stuff the other members dont want to release to them to deal with May 23 00:56:43 As far as I can see, Google has been *very* careful to comply with all licensing, and I would expect that to continue. May 23 00:56:46 NDAs are for SDK drops; getting source access is much higher. May 23 00:57:02 Dougie187: since they are part of an alliance, that may not even be possible May 23 00:57:21 (since there is probably conditions about release timing as part of the alliance agreement) May 23 00:57:24 any plan when you are going to release what you idea is for the community as far as the NDA with SDK for non-winners of the ADC will go? May 23 00:58:05 rwhitby's right. as the News.com article mentioned, we'll be opening up things like PacketVideo's codecs, all of which require legal work between multiple companies to clear up May 23 00:58:58 So you can expect Google to push to open up anything which they consider will be beneficial to the company goals on Google. You can't automatically assume a company will do anything else for more altruistic goals. May 23 00:59:02 rwhitby: thanks for the compliment. Chris DiBona from our open source team has been making sure that we're diligent in meeting all of our open source obligations. May 23 00:59:43 jasonchen: the google team is smart. they know that even a hint of non-complaince would be fatal to the project :-) May 23 01:00:01 (since there are so many people watching so closely) May 23 01:00:23 Dougie187: not sure i can parse your last question. can you re-state? May 23 01:00:27 heh May 23 01:00:28 yeah May 23 01:00:35 sorry after reading it again it confused me as well. May 23 01:00:55 Well, so you guys have the whole "NDA for SDK releases for ADC winners" May 23 01:01:13 and i heard that you guys were going to release a statement about what the rest of the community can do. May 23 01:01:22 just curious if you had any idea on that yet. May 23 01:01:53 Dougie187: the rationale behind that may be to ensure that no-one else from the community can create an app which is better than the ADC winners, to remove the risk of the marketing thunder being stolen. May 23 01:02:21 no, morrildl said earlier this week it was to protect the other OHA members who want proprietary features added into the SDK May 23 01:02:33 and the ADC winners were the people thought to need the SDK releases the most. May 23 01:02:39 Dougie187: yep, that too. May 23 01:03:10 (that would be the valid public reason - the other one I gave may well be an internal reason) May 23 01:04:07 You really have to look at all these decisions from the viewpoint of a corporate decision making machine, involving legal, marketing, sales, OHA alliance relations, etc - you can't look at them from the point of view of an open source developer and expect to understand them) May 23 01:04:25 Dougie187: we're working on that statement. it's been a little crazy trying to figure out everything around SDK release and also prep for Google I/O :-) May 23 01:04:47 rwhitby: how ever did you get to be so sanguine about how companies work? :-) May 23 01:05:42 jasonchen: I've worked at some big ones and some small ones :-) May 23 01:05:56 and am also an open source developer. May 23 01:06:15 So I get to see things from both sides, I presume just like you do. May 23 01:06:30 indeed. glad you can bring that to the channel. May 23 01:07:13 The only difference is that since I don't work for Google I can make these statements publicly ;-) May 23 01:12:49 grrr, USB is being wonky on this macbook pro. i'll be right back. May 23 01:15:15 jasonchen: how long do you guys expect until you give a statement? May 23 01:15:22 not that i care if you give it now. May 23 01:15:25 lol May 23 01:16:36 jasonchen: it could be very sticky if nothing comes out before I/O. i for one will not have many things positive to say about Android until this is cleared up. May 23 01:17:09 especially since the timing for I/O is all wrong: Google has thus far sent a clear message that they are not interested in early adopters anymore. May 23 01:17:44 i would hope by EoD tomorrow, but this being before a long weekend and I/O, it might take until Tuesday EoD (PST) May 23 01:17:59 jasta: why is the timing of Google I/O wrong? May 23 01:18:25 why expose Android to developers now when you don't expect that any of them will be able to produce software for the platform until much later this year? May 23 01:18:32 son of a gun... my computer is about to overhead but i don't want to miss any of this conversation... what to do! :) May 23 01:19:15 well, how would it look at I/O if there wasn't anything there about Android? May 23 01:19:23 better. May 23 01:19:32 much better. May 23 01:19:46 it would look less like Google is trying to deceive the development community. May 23 01:20:21 i would disagree. it's one of the biggest developer efforts that Google's engaged in and no mention at _the_ Google developer conference? that would seem odd at the very least, wouldn't it? May 23 01:20:44 well then you have a conflict to resolve. May 23 01:21:02 either make a pitch to developers, or don't. you can't have both. May 23 01:21:21 jasta: that's not true since you're the one asserting that it would be better if we weren't there. May 23 01:21:58 Given the situation, I believe that. I would choose to hide the platform and just try to play damage control until it is launched. May 23 01:22:24 However, if it were up to me, I would not have created this disaster. Google has actually "unreleased" a technology. May 23 01:22:39 jasta: the environment of a google developers conference, which is made up of a very receptive audience by definition, will not be a disaster that you think May 23 01:22:49 I can understand and appreciate the "not completely open source" thing, given the size and quantity of companies involved. Not to mention we're coming from a notoriously closed mobile infrastructure. May 23 01:23:03 We're not talking about the open source nature rwhitby. May 23 01:23:19 We're talking about the fact that you can't introduce developers to an SDK that is already stale and won't see any updates. May 23 01:23:33 But the unwillingness to release SDK's that are known improvements, to empower the folks embracing android and that will ultimately further the platform, I completely don't understand' May 23 01:23:36 It makes no sense. Developers can't meaningfully develop against it, and will quickly see through this deception. May 23 01:23:56 jasta: there will be many google developers there who haven't even seen the first SDK, and will lap up the current stale one. May 23 01:24:25 Well, if that's the case, I will be happy to talk to anyone I can and caution them away from the platform. May 23 01:24:50 Explaining that Google has simply lost control for the time being. May 23 01:24:57 yes, every developer should robustly put forward their opinions on the platform. May 23 01:25:04 jasta: isn't that just out of spite? Android still is, regardless of short comings in handling SDK releases, a very promising platform May 23 01:25:33 trigatch4: I didn't mean to imply that I think developers should avoid it permanently. May 23 01:25:49 he is just understandably upset that he cant work on his android app anymore. May 23 01:25:55 Just that the timing of I/O was very unfortunate for Android enthusiasts, since they are being introduced to something already old and which will not be updated. May 23 01:26:00 And so, should not embrace it now. May 23 01:26:02 at least until he hears the statement. May 23 01:27:02 Again, I would like to make it clear that Google has effectively unreleased Android. Taken it back into their compound and away from the community. They can't then pretend to not have done so at I/O. That is doing a great disservice to enthusiasts. May 23 01:27:18 jasta: the conference will likely be bullet points about future features anyway, rather than looking at fine details of SDK. May 23 01:27:27 And I think ultimately will hurt their marketing attempt significantly. May 23 01:28:05 My position would be different if the current SDK was anything resembling stable. May 23 01:28:23 The fact that they won't even toss us a bone with maintenance releases of a buggy release is just pathetic. May 23 01:29:11 jasta: part of the reason why we haven't yet released another SDK is b/c if we did, it would be buggy as well May 23 01:29:12 My project's design is compromised working around the bugs already. I had suspended my work waiting for the next version so that I need not further perturb my design. May 23 01:29:17 jasta: so your main concern is that those who did not win ADC Round 1 makeup the vast majority of current Android developers. By not releasing the SDK to them they are crippling development and removing any advantage they had for their initial faith and development in Android buy allowing others to "catch up" May 23 01:29:35 jasta: time to take a holiday away from development until the first handsets come out? or is android development part of your financial base and therefore one can understand your frustration? May 23 01:29:50 we want to get to a place where we'll have less bugs and you won't have to work around them (hopefully) May 23 01:30:06 trigatch4: That is my main personal concern, yes. May 23 01:30:24 * rwhitby has no financial link to android, so can take a very impartial and dispassionate viewpoint. others may not be in the same position. May 23 01:30:35 rwhitby: You seem to have missed something. My frustration should not need a professional or financial justification. May 23 01:30:47 And if all these developers bail on their Android Apps for this reason, there will be a much, much smaller selection of apps when handsets are released May 23 01:30:49 I invested large amounts of my personal time here, and I feel wronged. May 23 01:31:01 jasta: trust me when i say that we'll release an SDK w/ enough time for people for everyone to be ready before handsets are on the market. May 23 01:31:14 jasta: yep, time investment is the same as a financial basis, since it's oppotunity cost. May 23 01:31:33 (you could have been doing something else to make money with that time) May 23 01:31:34 remember, there are lots of things involved in getting widgets out to stores. May 23 01:31:48 jasonchecn: thats a start... but are there any timetables you'll release or is it going to be a very general, open ended "when we feel like it" kind of thing May 23 01:32:04 jasonchen: I do not accept that argument. Why then would it be necessary to offer those unstable enhancements to the participants in a challenge? May 23 01:32:10 In fact, the only acceptable reasoning would be the opposite. May 23 01:32:14 jasta: i'm sorry that you feel wronged, but i'm hoping that you'll see that this is only a temporary hold. i'm hopeful that you'll restart your development when we release the next SDK. May 23 01:32:18 trigatch4: I expect Google has learnt a lesson from Openmoko about giving dates for hardare release :-) May 23 01:32:23 That the ADC members must continue to develop on the existing "stable" platform, while the rest of us can play around in the unstable hell. May 23 01:33:05 he's got a point... May 23 01:33:20 if it's available, why force people to use somehting thats crappier than what you have available? May 23 01:33:30 jasonchen: Do release that my project is far from "done". I would have needed to be developing from this point until launch to be ready. I don't see the need to continue knowing that there are massive disruptions to my basic design and approach that are coming in the "next SDK". May 23 01:33:51 err, realize* May 23 01:34:06 trigatch4: there can be many non-technical reasons why something can't be released publicly. May 23 01:34:20 it's usually not a technical decision. May 23 01:34:44 jasta, trigatch4: take into account what rwhitby is suggesting. May 23 01:34:45 rwhitby: it doesnt make sense to allow the winners access but not the public though. May 23 01:35:13 jasonchen: I understand his reasoning. May 23 01:35:16 it does seem vastly unfair to the development community. May 23 01:35:24 I can still feel wronged for not having this information when I started 6 months ago. May 23 01:35:32 rwhitby: but to knowingly penalize the same people who are the first EVER to push your concept forward May 23 01:35:33 Dougie187: it doesn't make sense from a technical or open source point of view. From a marketing release timeline and OHA member alliance competitive advantage point of view it may do May 23 01:35:38 there are many forces (that we can't publicly discuss) that also influence releases May 23 01:35:40 I can assure you, I would never have embraced Android knowing any of this initially. May 23 01:35:49 rwhitby: i dont think it make sense period. May 23 01:36:09 Dougie187: the people making the decisions have very different drivers than you or I May 23 01:36:17 rwhitby: i understand the need for the NDA from that standpoint, but i think they should at least offer the same "option" to everyone involved. May 23 01:36:18 More precisley, I would not have embraced it early. I would have much prefered to dismiss it and wait for handset launch and all these hideous details to pass me by. May 23 01:36:25 jasta: you definitely are entitled to feel that way. however, i'd ask you to consider if the OHA knew 6 months ago that things would happen this way. May 23 01:37:00 i assure you that we had no masterplan when we started to have things play out like this. things literally evolve both technically and politically on a week-to-week basis. May 23 01:37:35 herding so many traditionally fully-closed companies in the OHA alliance would be an interesting task ... May 23 01:37:39 Excuse me for being blunt, but who designed that mess? May 23 01:37:47 what mess? May 23 01:38:03 jasta: a committee? ;-) May 23 01:38:05 How can you have as large a project as this truly changing fundamental direction on a weekly basis? May 23 01:38:35 * jasonchen hopes that some day he'll be able to tell great stories about the birth of Android a la the Mac May 23 01:38:43 Anyway, I must digress. I understnad where Google is coming from. May 23 01:38:45 oh man. the SDK is just the *tiniest* piece of the whole Android project from a market point of view. May 23 01:39:15 And I understand that they will feign sympathy at every attempt to complain. I remain unconvinced that Google has done the right thing. May 23 01:39:31 imagine the negotiations that are going on behind closed doors between Google and all the OHA members and all the cellular network operators. May 23 01:39:41 I think Google is just in the precarious position of managing EVERYBODY'S interests. And sometimes they have to compromise because simply put, everyone can't have their way all the time. May 23 01:39:53 you think the people making the decisions really care about what individual developers think about SDK releases? May 23 01:39:54 carreirs, manufacturer's, suppliers, consumers May 23 01:40:00 they all have different priorities May 23 01:40:05 and google has to find the balance May 23 01:40:15 jasta: you have every right to be a skeptic; i just hope you'll give us a fair shake when things are to your satisfaction. May 23 01:40:32 rwhitby: no, but the individual developers care. and i would think that the individual developers would be a big portion of the target market for android. May 23 01:40:45 its tough though, looking at it from an enthusiastic developer who didn't win round 1 May 23 01:41:05 i just wanna hear the statement. May 23 01:41:11 to see what will end up being done about the SDK thing. May 23 01:41:23 I would think that if jasta got access he might cheer up. May 23 01:41:25 at little. May 23 01:41:29 until he had to sign the NDA May 23 01:41:36 and then he would forget while he was working on five. May 23 01:42:08 trigatch4: i completely understand how that could color your view of things. May 23 01:42:37 jasonchen: I have to go, but I will leave you with my central conclusion: We all can appreciate Google's reasons here, what we cannot accept is the lack of communication on these important topics. May 23 01:43:26 So make your statement soon and let us chew on that :) May 23 01:43:44 Dougie187: developers are only a small part of the equation for Google May 23 01:44:28 rwhitby: but i would think they would be a key one as well, even if a small one. May 23 01:44:36 granted there are many more parts. May 23 01:44:54 jasta: read you loud and clear. May 23 01:45:10 Dougie187: I assume it's #1 priority when talking to developers, but far from that when making the high-level decisions May 23 01:45:25 heh. well. assuming they are the ones making the highlevel decisions. May 23 01:45:44 if its other OHA members, then I could easily see the "Screw individual developers" idea. May 23 01:45:50 Dougie187: you can be sure that the people involved with the developers are probably *not* the ones making the decisions :-) May 23 01:46:12 well, i feel bad for them, as they get the short end of the stick with that aspect. May 23 01:46:36 absolutely - the google staff in this channel would have a very hard life May 23 01:47:10 they are PR, Crowd Control, and Developers at the same time. May 23 01:47:11 lol May 23 01:47:16 but it's their job, so you can't feel too sorry for them. And they get free food. May 23 01:47:22 hah May 23 01:47:41 well. i feel sorry for them if their idea of the way things should go doesnt click with the way things end up going May 23 01:47:48 jasonchen: you guys still get free food, right? May 23 01:47:49 i dont like delivering news i dont agree with May 23 01:48:29 rwhitby: of course! May 23 01:48:47 there ya go - you can't feel sorry for people who get free food. May 23 01:49:03 Dougie187: communicating w/ the developer community on good or bad news is how we earn our keep May 23 01:49:22 im just anxious to see the statement. May 23 01:49:39 lol hey jasonchen let me picth an idea at you. May 23 01:49:41 pitch* May 23 01:49:50 i pitched this the other day, but got mixed feed back. May 23 01:49:57 first off, do you use faxes? May 23 01:50:31 well, we have fax numbers May 23 01:50:40 and they're virtual (i.e. they get turned into PDF) May 23 01:50:43 lol, i mean do you ever have to send or receive faxes (not by choice) May 23 01:50:44 ok May 23 01:50:45 well May 23 01:50:49 this is similar to that then. May 23 01:50:55 and i think we have copiers around that can send faxes. May 23 01:51:00 ok, let's hear it. May 23 01:51:32 my idea, was to make an app, that would allow your android phone to accept faxes and save them as PDF then email them to yourself (to free up space). and Potentially send a fax from a PDF. Using JTAPI (but i dont know if android will support it) May 23 01:52:18 it would work by specific phone numbers in your phone book as fax machines so when they called your phone the app would automatically know to answer it as a fax. May 23 01:52:56 sounds interesting. do many people use faxes now, though? (other than lawyers and construction folk?) May 23 01:53:19 Lol, i have to with student loans, and mortgage documents. May 23 01:53:35 and i know there are web services to do the same thing, but those cost money. and this would only cost you minutes on your phone May 23 01:53:57 this is true; minutes or KB consumed from your data plan. May 23 01:54:13 i would think, though, that the long term trend is away from paper. May 23 01:54:39 i just thought it would add a useful feature (that would be potentially indispensable to the right audience). and could improve the aspect of android for business men May 23 01:55:03 definitely true. there'd be a niche that would really use that sort of thing. May 23 01:55:03 I agree the long term trend is away from paper. but it would give a free alternative to buying a fax machine and paying for a phone service, or paying for a web fax service. May 23 01:55:33 but i dont know if JTAPI would be supported by android either. May 23 01:55:35 especially if you could take pictures of docs and turn them into PDF (thereby turning your camera into a doc scanner as well) May 23 01:55:46 that would be cool as well. May 23 01:55:52 heh make your phone a PDF sender. May 23 01:56:25 now there's a way to change things May 23 01:56:35 whats that May 23 01:56:39 make every android phone also a fax machine, copier, and scanner May 23 01:56:58 copier would be difficult. May 23 01:56:59 lol May 23 01:57:06 unless you can attach a printer to your android phone May 23 01:57:40 bluetooth printer, perhaps? May 23 01:57:45 ohh perhaps. May 23 01:58:01 Do you have any idea about JTAPI? May 23 01:58:07 honestly, i don't. May 23 01:58:10 ok. May 23 01:58:18 i had heard that android wouldnt support and JSR's May 23 01:58:23 but im not sure about that. May 23 01:58:31 granted JTAPI doesnt support faxes yet. May 23 01:58:45 but its supposed to in the future. May 23 01:59:55 yeah, remember that Android apps are written in the Java language, but the platform is *not* a "Java(tm) Technology Platform) May 23 02:00:02 this is basically jut in the idea phase right now. May 23 02:00:09 yeah. May 23 02:00:13 it's an idea w/ potential. May 23 02:00:17 you should explore it May 23 02:00:24 i may in the future. May 23 02:00:34 i have two ideas i want to work on. May 23 02:00:45 that and the electric fence idea, but that idea is a lot more simple. May 23 02:01:08 indeed May 23 02:01:18 anyway, i have to get out of the office May 23 02:01:21 heh May 23 02:01:21 ok May 23 02:01:24 have fun. May 23 02:01:25 and go see the S.O. May 23 02:01:27 will do May 23 02:06:16 nice... now i can finally copy/paste this whole thing and restart my computer hehe May 23 02:07:50 back in a bit! May 23 02:13:02 lol May 23 02:25:54 From http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9949793-39.html: "The recent version 2.6.24 of the Linux kernel has about 8 million lines of code, but about 8.6 million lines of Android's 11 million are open-source, Rubin said." May 23 02:26:15 thats what jasta was upset about May 23 02:26:20 Does that mean that only 600K lines of non-kernel google code out of 3 million are open source? May 23 02:26:44 i think that would be the assumption? May 23 02:27:23 If so, it's a great marketing achievement. May 23 02:28:36 I guess that's the figure today, rather than what it will be when handsets are released. That makes sense. May 23 02:28:46 yeah May 23 02:29:00 i.e. the SDK is not open souce today, and has never been promised to be open source before handsets are shipped. May 23 02:29:00 the idea is, when handsets are release so will the other 2.4 million May 23 02:29:15 Dougie187: I highly doubt it will be the full 2.4 million May 23 02:29:32 well, morrildl said it would be completely open source after handsets release. May 23 02:29:43 The SDK (which I believe is the only thing that has been promised to be open sourced) is not the whole thing May 23 02:30:10 i may have misunderstood, but i understood it to be the platform that was going to be open source. May 23 02:30:14 e.g. the codecs that were mentioned before are not part of the SDK source May 23 02:30:23 depends on your definition of "platform", doesn't it? May 23 02:30:28 true. May 23 02:30:34 but i think you understand what i mean by platform. May 23 02:30:38 for my understanding. May 23 02:30:55 not really. it could mean the kernel, or the kernel plus dalvik, or the kernel plus dalvik plus sdk. May 23 02:31:19 http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20080521/android_stack_540x387.jpg has four different levels which could be referred to as a "platform" May 23 02:31:22 i would assume everything that would be required to put android on a handset and develop software for it May 23 02:31:41 ah, but what software? hello-world.java ? May 23 02:32:01 well i wouldnt aspect the same things to be open source that OHA members would get. May 23 02:32:05 see this is the grey area that marketing can play with. May 23 02:32:10 i would think some aspects have to be proprietary for their points. May 23 02:32:26 true. but i wouldnt think those "modules" would be included in the definition of the android platform. May 23 02:33:06 I wonder how big the SDK is in lines of source May 23 02:33:56 Whenever I've seen morridl mention it, he's always been careful to word his statements to only refer to the SDK. But of course I haven't seen everything he's said, and haven't seen much recently. May 23 02:34:38 And BTW, when Google says "Open Platform", be aware that that specifically does not mean "Open-Source Platform" May 23 02:35:06 they are talking from the viewpoint of the cellular application ecosystem, not from the developer source code viewpoint. May 23 02:35:15 well what he said the other day, at least if i recall correctly, didnt include anything that referred to the SDK specifically, but i do agree they tend to carefully word things. May 23 02:35:37 they are well trained to carefully work things. it's their job ;-) May 23 02:35:40 i understand. May 23 02:35:43 s/work/word/ May 23 02:35:43 rwhitby meant: they are well trained to carefully word things. it's their job ;-) May 23 02:35:51 lol May 23 02:36:20 and it's clear that the reporting by the media never understands the specificity of Google's statements. May 23 02:36:47 and so you get people thinking the whole source code for everything on the phone will be released. which is certainly never going to happen. May 23 02:36:59 (IMHO) May 23 02:37:23 i agree, but personally, i would think the things that wont be release will be the proprietary aspects that are specific to different vendors. May 23 02:37:38 on what basis do you make that assumption? May 23 02:37:59 i guess the different articles i have read, and the conversations i have over heard. May 23 02:38:04 I would it would be whatever benefits the revenue-raising corporate mandate of Google. May 23 02:38:10 would expect ... May 23 02:39:07 and there's nothing wrong with that - companies are companies purely to make money. otherwise they would be non-profit spinoffs or charities. May 23 02:39:18 i understand. May 23 02:39:35 i guess i would expect a bit different from google though. May 23 02:39:39 but thats a personal stand point. May 23 02:39:56 ah, that just shows how good Google's recruitment marketing arm is :-) May 23 02:40:06 yeah May 23 02:41:07 and that's as it should be too - a company needs to hire the best to make the most money. May 23 02:41:19 yup May 23 02:42:35 either way. May 23 02:42:43 i wont end up giving up on android. May 23 02:42:50 i think the SDK issue is a bit disappointing. May 23 02:43:44 the small number of developers that this disenfranchises will be minimal compared to the number of new developers when the handsets are released. May 23 02:43:53 exactly. May 23 02:43:56 but. May 23 02:44:17 so whilst I agree it's disappointing, I can see why Google may make that hard decision if other factors are pushing it. May 23 02:44:47 i think it wont end up disenfranchising many developers at all. because this is a promising platform. May 23 02:45:01 and can have a lot of benefits as far as the mobile industry is concerned period. May 23 02:45:08 There are only 68 people in this channel. Google's marketing deparment can easily send geeky toys to all of them to make up for it. May 23 02:45:22 haha, i dont think that will happen though. May 23 02:45:32 theres usually like 80 some people in this room too. May 23 02:45:53 well I'm expecting a free handset from Google - they just don't know about it yet ;-) May 23 02:45:54 but what about that 1738 "teams" who lost ADC1 phase 1? May 23 02:45:59 haha May 23 02:46:13 i think a lot of developers are expecting free handsets from google. May 23 02:46:31 they may be disappointed, cause Google doesn't make handsets :-) May 23 02:46:31 and have made it blatantly clear. May 23 02:47:13 heh yeah May 23 02:47:21 but i think they tried to make that clear from the get go May 23 02:49:23 but im not going to even consider starting to develop until the next SDK is out, May 23 02:49:32 (im not actively a developer yet) May 23 02:49:37 (and didnt participate in ADC1) May 23 02:50:49 either way. May 23 02:50:52 im out for tonight May 23 02:50:53 peace May 23 02:54:06 * rwhitby goes for lunch **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri May 23 02:59:57 2008