**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jun 02 02:59:56 2008
Jun 02 12:39:32 <Dougie187> Good morning everyone.
Jun 02 12:40:27 <volmaria1> oxymoron
Jun 02 12:40:29 <volmaria1> mornings are not good
Jun 02 12:40:35 <Dougie187> mine are most days.
Jun 02 12:40:45 <Dougie187> i guess it depends on what you do in the morning
Jun 02 12:43:48 <Dougie187> what makes your mornings not good?
Jun 02 12:44:59 <volmaria1> waking up >_<
Jun 02 12:45:06 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 12:45:11 <Dougie187> well waking up isnt all that great.
Jun 02 12:45:53 <Dougie187> but after i take a shower im fine.
Jun 02 13:14:54 <Dougie187> could this also be referring to the first android devices?
Jun 02 13:14:55 <Dougie187> http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/nvidia-launches-tegra-hopes-to-change-the-smartphone-mid-game/
Jun 02 13:15:09 <Dougie187> products planned Q4 2008.
Jun 02 13:18:26 <volmaria1> Any idea on whether the initial android devices will have 3d acceleration?
Jun 02 13:18:49 <Dougie187> you could ask the ADC1 winners, but they will get sued after they answer.
Jun 02 13:18:58 <Dougie187> also you have to find a way into their private IRC room
Jun 02 13:19:29 <volmaria1> eh.
Jun 02 13:19:46 <mazzen> private irc room?
Jun 02 13:19:47 <mazzen> hm..
Jun 02 13:19:51 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 02 13:19:58 <Dougie187> they made one last week, so they could get help.
Jun 02 13:20:05 <Dougie187> becuase they cant talk about the SDK in here.
Jun 02 13:20:26 <mazzen> is there a "hacking-android-on-hardware" channel also? ;-)
Jun 02 13:20:34 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 13:20:35 <vol> ha
Jun 02 13:20:39 <Dougie187> not that i know of.
Jun 02 13:20:51 <mazzen> args :-|
Jun 02 13:21:01 <Dougie187> just wait for the source to come out.
Jun 02 13:21:09 <Dougie187> then you can probably find out how to do that fairly easy.
Jun 02 13:21:22 <mazzen> hm...
Jun 02 13:21:44 <mazzen> in fact i would love to do it right now.
Jun 02 13:21:56 <Dougie187> some people have done it with an N810
Jun 02 13:22:01 <Dougie187> possibly an N800 as well
Jun 02 13:22:22 <mazzen> yes, but they did not build an "image" file, which you can flash to a cell phone
Jun 02 13:22:45 <mazzen> for the n8xx stuff, you copy the android file system on a card
Jun 02 13:22:58 <Dougie187> nope. as far as i know, noone (except google maybe, or other OHA members) has a copy of android working on a cell phone
Jun 02 13:23:30 <mazzen> and what's with the videos on youtube?
Jun 02 13:23:40 <Dougie187> which ones?
Jun 02 13:23:52 <Dougie187> ive only seen ones from google.
Jun 02 13:24:23 <mazzen> http://youtube.com/watch?v=muIqc7TP1bs
Jun 02 13:24:31 <mazzen> this one is a real old video
Jun 02 13:24:59 <mazzen> and these are not google staff, or?
Jun 02 13:25:20 <Dougie187> i dont think these are google employees, but ionno. write them an email.
Jun 02 13:26:02 <mazzen> hehe
Jun 02 13:26:15 <mazzen> i fear, they got *a lot* of mails, because of this
Jun 02 13:26:31 <Dougie187> probably.
Jun 02 13:26:51 <Dougie187> i dont know how they would actually be running android.
Jun 02 13:27:23 <Dougie187> unless it was just the SDK, and they were running the emulator.
Jun 02 13:27:25 <Dougie187> but ionno.
Jun 02 13:28:30 <mazzen> hm... i think, they did it the same way like the nokia nxx people
Jun 02 13:28:46 <Dougie187> well, they say they can make calls with it.
Jun 02 13:28:49 <Dougie187> though they never demo that.
Jun 02 13:28:51 <Dougie187> ionno
Jun 02 13:28:58 <mazzen> yes, that's strange...
Jun 02 13:29:07 <Dougie187> and they dont talk about a service provider
Jun 02 13:29:24 <Dougie187> personally, id be skeptical.
Jun 02 13:29:33 <mazzen> anyway, i would really chat about this
Jun 02 13:29:48 <Dougie187> my bet is its the same as what they did on the nokias, but thats not really running android if i understand it right.
Jun 02 13:31:12 <zhobbs_> http://www.thestreet.com/s/source-gphone-delayed-to-2009/newsanalysis/techtelecom/10419263.html?puc=googlen&cm_ven=GOOGLEN&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA
Jun 02 13:32:21 <Dougie187> hows it going zhobbs_
Jun 02 13:32:47 <zhobbs_> it's good
Jun 02 13:32:50 <zhobbs_> worn out form IO
Jun 02 13:32:54 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 13:33:00 <Dougie187> you are in ADC1 R2 right?
Jun 02 13:33:31 <zhobbs_> yea
Jun 02 13:33:42 <Dougie187> hows that IRC room going?
Jun 02 13:34:08 <zhobbs_> that IRC room?
Jun 02 13:34:15 <mazzen> zhobbs_, thanks, that's interesting. but it's from february... so is this still true? i have heard, that the first google phones should be released at the end of 2008
Jun 02 13:34:16 <Dougie187> the ADC1 R2 one
Jun 02 13:34:39 <zhobbs_> mazzen: didn't notice it was that old
Jun 02 13:34:40 <Dougie187> google even states that it should be released 2nd half of 08
Jun 02 13:34:56 <mazzen> ah, ok
Jun 02 13:34:57 <Dougie187> its not old, it says 6/02/08 on it.
Jun 02 13:35:03 <vol> it's from today
Jun 02 13:35:07 <zhobbs_> oh
Jun 02 13:35:09 <vol> june 2, not feb 6
Jun 02 13:35:12 <mazzen> ah :-)
Jun 02 13:35:14 <zhobbs_> I think it's bs
Jun 02 13:35:16 <vol> us wacky americans and our dating system
Jun 02 13:35:28 <mazzen> typicall mistake for a german :)
Jun 02 13:35:31 <zhobbs_> Dougie187: didn't know there was a R2 irc room
Jun 02 13:35:50 <vol> Also, what the heck is round 2 going to be, anyway
Jun 02 13:35:52 <Dougie187> yeah you will have to ask f00f- or muthu
Jun 02 13:36:05 <Dougie187> they know the detials.
Jun 02 13:36:11 <Dougie187> i think f00f- set it up.
Jun 02 13:36:22 <Dougie187> they did it cuz of the NDA so they can't ask questions in here about the SDK
Jun 02 13:36:27 <zhobbs_> yeah
Jun 02 13:36:31 <mazzen> but anyway. does anyone know, what dio or m0 files are or even better: how they are created?
Jun 02 13:37:03 <vol> how they're created is easy: when a developer and an IDE love each other very much...
Jun 02 13:37:11 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 13:37:22 <mazzen> rofl
Jun 02 13:37:24 <mazzen> heeh
Jun 02 13:37:37 <Dougie187> whyd you choose IDE?
Jun 02 13:38:23 * mazzen thinks about finding this IDE and start to love it
Jun 02 13:39:00 <mazzen> so vol, please tell me where i can find *her* ;)
Jun 02 13:39:01 <vol> because I love eclipse with all of my body (including my peepee)
Jun 02 13:39:12 <vol> on an unrelated note....
Jun 02 13:39:18 <Dougie187> that  is interested.
Jun 02 13:39:22 <Dougie187> i mean interesting.
Jun 02 13:39:22 <vol> i'm trying to introduce unit testing to my project.
Jun 02 13:39:29 <vol> So, I have a service that I start
Jun 02 13:39:34 <Dougie187> what is your project again?
Jun 02 13:39:36 <vol> but I want to have a mock version that acts slightly differently
Jun 02 13:39:42 <vol> driving directions
Jun 02 13:39:47 <Dougie187> oh yes.
Jun 02 13:39:51 <Dougie187> didnt you have to do that proposal?
Jun 02 13:40:02 <vol> I did, I'm sure I'll hear back in a week
Jun 02 13:40:05 <Dougie187> cool
Jun 02 13:40:06 <vol> till then, I have nothing else to do
Jun 02 13:40:08 <vol> so!
Jun 02 13:40:10 <vol> I have a service
Jun 02 13:40:15 <vol> part of what it does is use a location provider
Jun 02 13:40:23 <vol> I want to extend the service to use a different location provider that I can control
Jun 02 13:40:27 <vol> for the sake of unit testing
Jun 02 13:40:32 <Dougie187> ok
Jun 02 13:40:34 <vol> so, extending the service isn't hard
Jun 02 13:40:43 <vol> what I'm curious about is how I modify the AIDL interface
Jun 02 13:40:49 <vol> so that I can bind to that interface
Jun 02 13:40:53 <vol> but get the mock service
Jun 02 13:41:09 <vol> aidl doesn't seem to define "extends" for interfaces
Jun 02 13:41:17 <Dougie187> yeah i dont know.
Jun 02 13:41:26 <Dougie187> i havent messed with it enough. plus i dont have the SDK around.
Jun 02 13:41:32 <Dougie187> not till i get my laptop back
Jun 02 13:41:38 <vol> I'm really hoping the answer isn't "keep different manifest files for release and testing"
Jun 02 13:42:22 <Dougie187> too bad google isnt awake yet
Jun 02 13:42:22 <vol> I remember something about setting prefrred activities
Jun 02 13:52:35 <vol> Excellent!
Jun 02 13:52:42 <vol> All I have to do is add a seperate category in the manifest
Jun 02 13:52:48 <Dougie187> nice
Jun 02 13:52:52 <vol> for something like Intent.FRAMEWORK_INSTRUMENTATION_TEST_CATEGORY
Jun 02 13:53:00 <vol> and then add that category to my intent
Jun 02 13:53:52 <Dougie187> well thats cool.
Jun 02 13:53:57 <Dougie187> so your going to be testing your app soon?
Jun 02 13:55:16 <vol> well
Jun 02 13:55:19 <vol> unit testing, yes.
Jun 02 13:55:26 <vol> testing for general consumption, no.
Jun 02 13:55:35 <vol> expect that to happen a year from now
Jun 02 13:55:40 <vol> assuming that this project gets the goahead at all
Jun 02 13:55:51 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 02 13:55:58 <Dougie187> but you are hoping you get the goahead.
Jun 02 13:56:33 <vol> yes, but I'm not sure that'll happen
Jun 02 13:57:08 <vol> for business reasons I won't disclose, it'd probably be smarter for me to work on other things
Jun 02 13:57:15 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 13:57:16 <Dougie187> ok
Jun 02 13:57:33 <vol> even if I really would like to do this, and my boss would love it to happen too
Jun 02 14:25:13 <jasta> yawn
Jun 02 14:25:21 <Dougie187> good morning jasta
Jun 02 14:29:04 <jasta> mornin
Jun 02 14:29:19 <Dougie187> hey are you writing your rhythmbox plugin in python?
Jun 02 14:29:25 <jasta> no
Jun 02 14:30:25 <Dougie187> what are you writing it in?
Jun 02 14:30:43 <jasta> C
Jun 02 14:30:47 <Dougie187> oh ok
Jun 02 14:30:56 <Dougie187> only the best.
Jun 02 14:30:57 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 14:31:14 <jasta> the code will be most reusable as C.
Jun 02 14:31:29 <jasta> also, i will be using libsyncml as the client library
Jun 02 14:31:45 <Dougie187> cool
Jun 02 14:33:40 <jasta> and there are no python bindings, afaik.
Jun 02 14:38:57 <Dougie187> i just read something that talked about making plugins in python.
Jun 02 14:39:17 <Dougie187> isnt this python?
Jun 02 14:39:17 <Dougie187> http://live.gnome.org/RhythmboxPlugins/WritingGuide#head-107f4ab8e7fc1bf19226417bbb3ef55daf09d3db
Jun 02 14:40:26 <jasta> yes, but i meant for libsyncml
Jun 02 14:40:33 <Dougie187> oh
Jun 02 14:40:33 <Dougie187> ok
Jun 02 14:40:48 <jasta> SyncML, as it turns out, is not a very well supported protocol :)
Jun 02 14:41:03 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 14:41:06 <Dougie187> that happens.
Jun 02 14:41:14 <jasta> Basically, libsyncml is it.  There's sync4j but it's frankly shite.  To the point that I rolled my own Java client library for Android.
Jun 02 14:41:48 <jasta> And even libsyncml has major problems.  Seems to have lots of leaks that need to be plugged, an incomplete API, and the client support is very new and does not work right.
Jun 02 14:41:54 <jasta> I will need to dig in and extend it substantially
Jun 02 14:42:05 <Dougie187> thats too bad.
Jun 02 14:42:32 <wastrel> dbm/win 23
Jun 02 14:44:18 <jasta> Yeah, but at least it's less work than doing it all from scratch.
Jun 02 14:44:37 <jasta> and ultimately i think lots of other Android projects could end up taking advantage of this work.
Jun 02 14:44:45 <Dougie187> true
Jun 02 14:44:53 <Dougie187> i need to figure out if there is a way to use JTAPI with it
Jun 02 14:56:07 * cutmasta is away (away)
Jun 02 15:34:14 <Dougie187> heh.
Jun 02 15:34:18 <Dougie187> hey zhobbs_
Jun 02 15:34:18 <Dougie187> http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/krakow-says-gphone-is-delayed-to-2009-wait-what/
Jun 02 15:34:34 <jasta> hey f00f
Jun 02 15:36:07 <zhobbs_> Dougie187: saw that...I'd be surprised if we didn't see any phones this year
Jun 02 15:37:37 <Dougie187> i think id be more disappointed then surprised. heh
Jun 02 15:37:50 <Dougie187> especially after everything thats happened so far.
Jun 02 15:41:25 <Dougie187> i like how jasonchen sneaks out after he sees that post.
Jun 02 15:41:26 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 15:41:48 <jasta> i was not real happy with him when i was at I/O.
Jun 02 15:41:59 <Dougie187> i remember hearing that.
Jun 02 15:42:09 <Dougie187> he didnt have the responses planned out as he told you he would.
Jun 02 15:42:12 <Dougie187> right?
Jun 02 15:42:27 <zhobbs_> I think he might not be real happy with me
Jun 02 15:42:33 <Dougie187> how come?
Jun 02 15:42:40 <zhobbs_> for posting about the sdk thing
Jun 02 15:42:48 <Dougie187> where?
Jun 02 15:42:51 <jasta> yeah, he clearly just tried to placate.
Jun 02 15:42:54 <Dougie187> or do you mean the NDA thing?
Jun 02 15:43:01 <jasta> zhobbs_: You were not otherwise required to keep silent.
Jun 02 15:43:07 <zhobbs_> Dougie187: just the story on helloandroid.com
Jun 02 15:43:11 <Dougie187> oh ok
Jun 02 15:43:11 <jasta> Afterall, the NDA can't preclude you from mentioning the NDA.
Jun 02 15:43:14 <Dougie187> i didnt notice that was you.
Jun 02 15:43:24 <zhobbs_> jasta: I actually got an ok to post it beforehand
Jun 02 15:43:40 <jasta> Well, you didn't need the OK ;)
Jun 02 15:43:42 <zhobbs_> yeah
Jun 02 15:43:51 <Dougie187> heh i think hes not happy about it because we keep hassling him.
Jun 02 15:44:00 <Dougie187> he was supposed to give us an announcement two weeks ago.
Jun 02 15:44:24 <Dougie187> Still nothing.
Jun 02 15:44:33 <jasta> Dougie187: if my impression is anything to go on, Google clearly does not appreciate the gravity of this situation.
Jun 02 15:44:59 <Dougie187> nor do a lot of other people though.
Jun 02 15:45:04 <zhobbs_> they're just going to wait it out...the issue will be gone in 2 months
Jun 02 15:45:25 <Dougie187> heh hopefully.
Jun 02 15:45:28 <jasta> i doubt very much that the NDA will be that well aligned with the ADC.
Jun 02 15:45:36 <Dougie187> though i heard the SDK wont go public until handsets are out.
Jun 02 15:45:49 <jasta> afterall, their words explain that the next release will be in several months.
Jun 02 15:45:50 <Dougie187> i heard SDK + Source + ADC2 will all happen at about the same time.
Jun 02 15:46:27 <Dougie187> watch, only the 20 winners of ADC1 R2 get the next SDK release
Jun 02 15:49:09 <muthu> Dougie187: what?
Jun 02 15:49:29 <Dougie187> im extending the current SDK issue to the future of ADC
Jun 02 15:49:59 <muthu> oh ok
Jun 02 15:50:24 <Dougie187> to say they will do the same thing with the current round winners and the next SDK release
Jun 02 15:50:54 <michaelnovakjr__> so when was the 'big' announcement
Jun 02 15:51:02 <Dougie187> hah,
Jun 02 15:51:04 <Dougie187> a while ago
Jun 02 15:51:09 <Dougie187> well
Jun 02 15:51:10 <michaelnovakjr__> what did it say?
Jun 02 15:51:12 <Dougie187> supposed to be a while ago
Jun 02 15:51:17 <Dougie187> but it hasnt come out still
Jun 02 15:51:20 <michaelnovakjr__> hah
Jun 02 15:52:58 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: i talked to Dan and Jason at I/O...
Jun 02 15:53:03 <jasta> neither one of them had anything more to say
Jun 02 15:53:09 <Dougie187> yeah i know.
Jun 02 15:53:10 <michaelnovakjr__> that's great
Jun 02 15:53:21 <Dougie187> they havent had anything to say in a while.
Jun 02 15:53:39 <Dougie187> but jason said they were waiting for... Andy? (i dont remember if thats his name) to let them know what they could do.
Jun 02 15:54:21 <jasta> the bottom line is that this is going nowhere, and for now, it makes sense to ignore android.
Jun 02 15:54:39 <michaelnovakjr__> i haven't spent anytime looking at it
Jun 02 15:54:45 <Dougie187> me either.
Jun 02 15:54:56 <jasta> btw, the I/O sessions on Android were mostly ridiculous :)
Jun 02 15:54:59 <Dougie187> especially since we cant use the new SDK
Jun 02 15:55:03 <jasta> even the Dalvik talk was kind of "yeah?  so what."
Jun 02 15:55:08 <Dougie187> heh, i thought some of the keynote stuff was cool.
Jun 02 15:55:12 <muthu> mostly basic
Jun 02 15:55:14 <Dougie187> with the new sdk stuff.
Jun 02 15:55:28 <Dougie187> i thought the locking thing was cool
Jun 02 15:55:32 <muthu> the firechat was good
Jun 02 15:55:42 <zhobbs_> dalvik one was interesting
Jun 02 15:55:50 <zhobbs_> first keynote was good
Jun 02 15:55:53 <muthu> where you got some ideas about future of android
Jun 02 15:56:00 <zhobbs_> fireside was pretty good
Jun 02 15:56:10 <zhobbs_> otherwise not much going on
Jun 02 15:56:17 <michaelnovakjr__> i'm going to join the LinMo bandwagon
Jun 02 15:56:34 <Dougie187> are you leaving android then?
Jun 02 15:56:40 <wastrel> linmo what now?
Jun 02 15:57:03 <michaelnovakjr__> i'm going to pay android no attention till i actually see it on a phone and being used by people
Jun 02 15:57:15 <muthu> i know a few people got excited and pumped up
Jun 02 15:57:19 <muthu> after the fire chat
Jun 02 15:57:21 <zhobbs_> it's probably closer than limo right?
Jun 02 15:57:35 <muthu> and are jumping back into android again
Jun 02 15:57:46 <Dougie187> how can they jump back into android?
Jun 02 15:57:51 <zhobbs_> muthu: yeah, fireside was good...though they "beat around the bush" too much on a couple of topics
Jun 02 15:57:53 <michaelnovakjr__> haha
Jun 02 15:58:05 <Dougie187> zhobbs_ thats what i heard.
Jun 02 15:58:08 <michaelnovakjr__> its a waste man, the sdk is totally useless
Jun 02 15:58:10 <jasta> maybe i didn't attend the same conference you guys did :)
Jun 02 15:58:13 <Dougie187> i heard they were good at dodgin questions.
Jun 02 15:58:18 <muthu> i'm surprised even andy doesn't have direct answers
Jun 02 15:58:33 <michaelnovakjr__> i'm not
Jun 02 15:59:01 <Dougie187> lol even from the QA session on day one, the video i saw he didnt really answer questions right.
Jun 02 15:59:12 <jasta> i do appreciate the precarious position they are in with respect to the OHA, but i don't agree with their "lead by good example" mantra.
Jun 02 15:59:21 <jasta> basically, because they are not setting a good example of openness so far.
Jun 02 15:59:42 <Dougie187> yeah, and i dont like their attitude towards the development community.
Jun 02 15:59:44 <jasta> they can't have their cake and eat it too.
Jun 02 16:00:42 <zhobbs_> jasta: I'm glad they aren't using a license that dictates exactly what you can do with android though
Jun 02 16:01:14 <michaelnovakjr__> their attitude sucks
Jun 02 16:01:37 <jasta> zhobbs_: agreed, any other license would have been a mistake
Jun 02 16:01:51 <jasta> but that doesn't excuse the fact that they are hiding behind a strategy they haven't adopted.
Jun 02 16:01:57 <Dougie187> i dont appreciate how in their mind the development community consists of the OHA members, and the top 50 ADC teams.
Jun 02 16:02:20 <zhobbs_> I think they should have had OHA members represented at the fireside chat
Jun 02 16:02:30 <jasta> zhobbs_: repeated claims of openness in a community that could only be described as closed and privatized.
Jun 02 16:02:31 <zhobbs_> at least a couple
Jun 02 16:02:52 <Dougie187> what would you have wanted to get from them though?
Jun 02 16:02:55 <jasta> you know i was talking to some folks from Motorola just before I left on Wed and was on my soap box about all this mess
Jun 02 16:02:57 <muthu> i'll be happy when its opensourced
Jun 02 16:03:03 <jasta> they seemed VERY alarmed.
Jun 02 16:03:30 <zhobbs_> Dougie187: ask the carriers if they plan on crippling android, or limiting package deployment in any way, etc
Jun 02 16:03:33 <jasta> as in, they wanted to go back to their boss and re-evaluate their teams interest in Android.
Jun 02 16:03:47 <Dougie187> that would be interesting to hear, from carriers at least.
Jun 02 16:03:54 <michaelnovakjr__> muthu dont hold your breath
Jun 02 16:03:57 <jasta> zhobbs_: let's just reasonably assume that they will :)
Jun 02 16:04:00 <Dougie187> i have been thinking for a little while they would probably cripple it somewhat.
Jun 02 16:04:09 <Dougie187> though, one thing i was thinking.
Jun 02 16:04:17 <Dougie187> is that if they do put android on a handset, and cripple it.
Jun 02 16:04:27 <Dougie187> couldnt you just "reinstall" a non-crippled version on it?
Jun 02 16:04:33 <zhobbs_> Dougie187: yeah
Jun 02 16:04:40 <jasta> i wouldn't be so quick to assume that
Jun 02 16:04:44 <michaelnovakjr__> yea me too
Jun 02 16:04:52 <michaelnovakjr__> hardware drivers fellas
Jun 02 16:05:04 <zhobbs_> jasta: jason chen made it seem so in the "intro" session
Jun 02 16:05:05 <jasta> if the interface between PC and device was proprietary and unusual, then how would you?
Jun 02 16:05:05 <Dougie187> true. i guess jasonchen did say not all the hardware drivers would be opensourced.
Jun 02 16:05:06 <michaelnovakjr__> wifi, radio....
Jun 02 16:05:28 <jasta> zhobbs_: what jason made it seem to be is not what it is.
Jun 02 16:05:38 <zhobbs_> well, he said anyone can create images...I guess getting them on the phone is different
Jun 02 16:05:45 <michaelnovakjr__> maybe we will see a reverse engineered open source version of some of the radio drivers
Jun 02 16:06:05 <jasta> zhobbs_: of course.  like i said, if the interface between the PC and phone is proprietary and unusual, how would you get around it?  you'd end up going through a major hack fest just to get your image uploaded.
Jun 02 16:06:14 <Dougie187> i thought this video was funny.
Jun 02 16:06:14 <Dougie187> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ffsjp0D1ZE
Jun 02 16:06:17 <jasta> then comes the interesting part of how does your image differ from the one that was on there in the first place?  will it even work!?
Jun 02 16:06:24 <jasta> bbl, gotta run to work
Jun 02 16:06:26 <michaelnovakjr__> exactly!
Jun 02 16:07:45 <muthu> hey, anyone unit tested android code?
Jun 02 16:07:49 <muthu> how do you do them?
Jun 02 16:07:58 <Dougie187> vol was talking about that earlier.
Jun 02 16:08:01 <michaelnovakjr__> didn't waste any time doing thatj
Jun 02 16:08:06 <muthu> haha
Jun 02 16:08:17 <Dougie187> muthu gets to waste time doing that
Jun 02 16:08:18 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 16:08:21 <Dougie187> hes one of the lucky 50
Jun 02 16:08:33 <muthu> agree
Jun 02 16:08:40 <muthu> glad to be there
Jun 02 16:08:42 <Dougie187> hows the secret IRC room muthu?
Jun 02 16:08:47 <muthu> oh oh
Jun 02 16:09:08 <Dougie187> did dan end up joining you guys?
Jun 02 16:09:20 <muthu> Dougie187: no, not many participants now
Jun 02 16:09:28 <Dougie187> just you and f00f?
Jun 02 16:09:36 <muthu> and a few more
Jun 02 16:10:09 <Dougie187> sounds like fun.
Jun 02 16:10:14 <Dougie187> your still in San Fran, right?
Jun 02 16:10:16 <zhobbs_> there's a seperate nda for the irc room
Jun 02 16:10:19 <zhobbs_> :)
Jun 02 16:10:21 <Dougie187> hah
Jun 02 16:10:23 <muthu> haha
Jun 02 16:10:24 <michaelnovakjr__> muthu... you wouldn't be pissed if the platform tanked?
Jun 02 16:10:38 <muthu> i'll be pissed a lot
Jun 02 16:10:40 <Dougie187> he would have already won the money by that point michaelnovakjr__
Jun 02 16:10:59 <muthu> android is something i'm betting on
Jun 02 16:11:12 <muthu> hope it gets mainstream
Jun 02 16:11:17 <zhobbs_> muthu: I think it's a good bet
Jun 02 16:11:27 <Dougie187> so did 1738 teams.
Jun 02 16:11:56 <muthu> yeah, if goog cannot do it.. then who can?
Jun 02 16:12:53 <wastrel> what's 1738?
Jun 02 16:13:02 <Dougie187> the number of losers from ADC1 R1
Jun 02 16:14:44 <zhobbs_> open source projects don't just die unless they deserve to
Jun 02 16:14:59 <zhobbs_> I know it's a little different for an embedded system, but still
Jun 02 16:15:04 <Dougie187> im just saying im sure there are a good portion of the 1738 who believe they deserve to now.
Jun 02 16:15:18 <Dougie187> or believe it deserves to
Jun 02 16:15:46 <zhobbs_> if it's any good, but mfgs don't buy into it for some reason we can still get it onto something like openmoko or something
Jun 02 16:16:23 <Dougie187> well see. i just think a good portion of the community is frustrated with googles attitude towards them.
Jun 02 16:16:30 <zhobbs_> or onto some of these maybe:
Jun 02 16:16:30 <zhobbs_> http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT9423084269.html
Jun 02 16:16:40 <michaelnovakjr__> its not that easy
Jun 02 16:16:41 <Dougie187> granted, you probably arnt one of them.
Jun 02 16:16:46 <Dougie187> and muthu isnt either.
Jun 02 16:16:50 <michaelnovakjr__> and i have a feeling android will disappoint more than it pleases
Jun 02 16:17:14 <Dougie187> are you sure it will be android that disappoints? rather then the carriers implementation of android?
Jun 02 16:17:25 <zhobbs_> well, after it's open sourced you can just say "F google" and fork and run
Jun 02 16:17:36 <michaelnovakjr__> zhobbs_: to a point
Jun 02 16:17:42 <Dougie187> if anything disappoints, i would think it would be how carriers would adapt it to their hardware.
Jun 02 16:17:52 <michaelnovakjr__> all that carrier stuff will be missing
Jun 02 16:18:48 <Dougie187> can a carrier selectively remove features from android under the current license scheme?
Jun 02 16:19:07 <michaelnovakjr__> i would think so
Jun 02 16:19:10 <zhobbs_> yes
Jun 02 16:19:12 <zhobbs_> for sure
Jun 02 16:19:16 <Dougie187> i dont know a lot about licenses.
Jun 02 16:19:50 <zhobbs_> why release a less desirable product though?
Jun 02 16:20:02 <Dougie187> because it benefits them.
Jun 02 16:20:13 <Dougie187> carriers arn't worried about the consumers.
Jun 02 16:20:17 <zhobbs_> free market usually works
Jun 02 16:20:21 <Dougie187> they are worried about the $$
Jun 02 16:20:34 <zhobbs_> niches get filled
Jun 02 16:21:18 <Dougie187> well. one thing i know for instanced, is i have a sanyo katana phone right now (this thing blows) and its through sprint. and sprint made sanyo lock this thing down so you cant do almost anything to it.
Jun 02 16:21:39 <muthu> that's a real problem
Jun 02 16:21:40 <Dougie187> s/instanced/instance/g
Jun 02 16:21:41 <infobot> Dougie187 meant: well. one thing i know for instance, is i have a sanyo katana phone right now (this thing blows) and its through sprint. and sprint made sanyo lock this thing down so you cant do almost anything to it.
Jun 02 16:21:42 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 02 16:22:13 <muthu> the carriers and the oem combination can do anything
Jun 02 16:22:18 <muthu> to benefit their agendas
Jun 02 16:22:25 <Dougie187> so i would assume, if carriers go that far to do that for this phone (its not even a smartphone) they would probably do that to android as well.
Jun 02 16:22:31 <Dougie187> exactly muthu
Jun 02 16:22:32 <michaelnovakjr__> its all a joke if you ask me
Jun 02 16:22:43 <michaelnovakjr__> media coverage hasn't been that great either
Jun 02 16:22:47 <Dougie187> yup.
Jun 02 16:22:56 <Dougie187> it just seems like in the end, its going to be another OS on a phone.
Jun 02 16:23:04 <michaelnovakjr__> zdnet told them to shut up and show me something
Jun 02 16:23:14 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 16:23:24 <michaelnovakjr__> enough talking about open source... do it!
Jun 02 16:23:32 <Dougie187> thats jasta's stance too
Jun 02 16:23:54 <michaelnovakjr__> no one is talking about the top 50 either
Jun 02 16:24:04 <michaelnovakjr__> that went by completely unnoticed
Jun 02 16:24:07 <Dougie187> i saw one other thing about the top 50 a bit a go.
Jun 02 16:24:13 <Dougie187> maybe last week
Jun 02 16:24:20 <Dougie187> it was just another thing on one of the apps.
Jun 02 16:24:24 <Dougie187> like enkin
Jun 02 16:24:29 <michaelnovakjr__> stupid enkin
Jun 02 16:24:30 <Dougie187> but something else.
Jun 02 16:24:39 <Dougie187> enkin lost didnt it?
Jun 02 16:24:46 <michaelnovakjr__> yep
Jun 02 16:24:49 <muthu> may be the top 20 will get promoted
Jun 02 16:24:58 <michaelnovakjr__> doubt it
Jun 02 16:25:06 <michaelnovakjr__> nothing will without a platform
Jun 02 16:25:18 <Dougie187> well earlier my point i guess was, i bet after ADC1 R2 Google will screw another 30 people.
Jun 02 16:25:21 <michaelnovakjr__> i expect to see more losing apps get promoted
Jun 02 16:25:25 <Dougie187> just like they screwed 1738 people so far.
Jun 02 16:38:47 <jasta> Dougie187: actually, Dan confirmed just that.  That this will be "just another OS".
Jun 02 16:39:10 <jasta> in particular, he said that Google is not in the business of changing anyone's overall strategy.
Jun 02 16:47:42 <jasta> Dougie187: it was stated many times that Google is trying to lead the industry by example.  showing that openness and a supporting community is the right way to go.
Jun 02 16:47:55 <jasta> unfortunately, given their example so far, i hope that the rest of the industry does not follow ;)
Jun 02 16:49:37 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 16:49:40 <Dougie187> true that
Jun 02 17:00:13 <jasta> Dougie187: the real problem is that i think Google is buying into their own hype
Jun 02 17:00:41 <Kraln> jasta: would you be interested in an iphone version of your client? :-D
Jun 02 17:00:53 <jasta> i don't want to write it.
Jun 02 17:01:00 <Kraln> well, duh
Jun 02 17:01:15 <jasta> but otherwise, yes :)
Jun 02 17:01:26 <jasta> although i don't know how wise that would be, given Apple's evil license
Jun 02 17:01:41 <zhobbs_> gotta go the unofficial route
Jun 02 17:01:41 <Kraln> eh?
Jun 02 17:01:51 <zhobbs_> toolchain
Jun 02 17:01:57 <michaelnovakjr__> how about a damn device that supports FLAC
Jun 02 17:02:08 <Kraln> FLAC that spells free, credit report dot com baby
Jun 02 17:02:16 <Kraln> ...
Jun 02 17:02:24 <zhobbs_> I met the dude that developed a lot of the iphone toolchain stuff at IO...craziest dude I've ever met
Jun 02 17:02:45 <zhobbs_> he's so weird that you you can tell he's really smart
Jun 02 17:03:20 <zhobbs_> he printed his own iPhone sign for the conference for some reason
Jun 02 17:04:50 <jasta> Kraln: right now, i'm working on a Rhythmbox plugin for the desktop
Jun 02 17:06:36 <jasta> i probably personally will only ever do the Linux stuff :)
Jun 02 17:06:38 <zhobbs_> jasta: you thought about real-time transcoding options on the server for less buffer time?
Jun 02 17:07:00 <jasta> zhobbs_: Yes, it's in the planned core set of features.
Jun 02 17:07:06 <jasta> specifically, to support FLAC, WMA, etc.
Jun 02 17:07:45 <jasta> and then to re-encode other formats that are unreasonable sizes (probably anything greater than 192 makes sense to re-encode when the target is a mobile)
Jun 02 17:07:51 <michaelnovakjr__> hell yea FLAC!!
Jun 02 17:07:52 <jasta> 192kbps, that is
Jun 02 17:11:15 <jasta> i will probably get that support in place when i get ready to officially launch the Rhythmbox plugin
Jun 02 17:11:24 <jasta> which i expect to be in the next few months
Jun 02 17:11:35 <jasta> then i will move on to the generalized FUSE approach
Jun 02 17:11:46 <jasta> and then, hopefully, refocus on the Android client.
Jun 02 17:19:05 <Dougie187> im still waiting for the announcement.
Jun 02 17:19:05 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 17:19:26 <jasta> honestly, i wouldn't.
Jun 02 17:19:34 <jasta> i talked to them at I/O.  they don't have any clue what's going on.
Jun 02 17:19:39 <Dougie187> yeah i know
Jun 02 17:20:32 <jasta> dan claims he's still looking into whether or not they could extend the NDA to certain individuals as well
Jun 02 17:20:35 <jasta> but i think that's a lie
Jun 02 17:20:56 <Dougie187> yeah i think they would have heard by now.
Jun 02 17:21:12 <Dougie187> plus, i doubt the "certain individuals" would extend to me.
Jun 02 17:21:12 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 17:21:35 <jasta> i would imagine it would extend to me simply because i think they were interested in silencing me.
Jun 02 17:21:49 <Dougie187> heh yeah
Jun 02 17:22:06 <zhobbs_> maybe they should have a beta program
Jun 02 17:22:25 <zhobbs_> you apply and then they chose who to give it to
Jun 02 17:22:27 <jasta> yeah, which is what they do with all their other technologies
Jun 02 17:22:49 <zhobbs_> yeah, they can then give it to many prominent community members
Jun 02 17:22:50 <jasta> however their beta programs usually don't require an NDA :)
Jun 02 17:23:24 <jasta> that's actually not a bad idea.  it at least fits better with traditional google behaviour.
Jun 02 17:24:05 <jasta> though i have spoken out largely against this move politically, i ultimately am upset personally because i can't continue my project and as such would be interested in the offer.
Jun 02 17:24:38 <muthu> its a shame so many talented people are sidelined
Jun 02 17:25:04 <Dougie187> muthu thats how we feel
Jun 02 17:25:11 <muthu> i know
Jun 02 17:25:17 <muthu> i support a public release
Jun 02 17:25:35 <Dougie187> id go with a beta program.
Jun 02 17:26:37 <michaelnovakjr__> i think its stupid even to be having this conversation, when we are speaking of an open source project
Jun 02 17:26:46 <michaelnovakjr__> its like an oxy moron
Jun 02 17:26:55 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 17:26:57 <michaelnovakjr__> complete contradiction
Jun 02 17:27:39 <jasta> agreed.  Google is very confused as to how openness works.  It's not something you get to pick only when it's convenient.
Jun 02 17:27:51 <michaelnovakjr__> it seems google wasn't completely not prepared for releasing any sdk when they did
Jun 02 17:27:51 <Dougie187> i also like how we are all speculating this, but noone from google is even in this room
Jun 02 17:28:03 <michaelnovakjr__> wasnt completely prepared **
Jun 02 17:28:35 <michaelnovakjr__> i think that the early push of android will eventually lead to its fall between the cracks of the mobile industry
Jun 02 17:29:00 <jasta> Dougie187: let's be reasonable, the folks from Google that frequent this channel are not in a good position to make changes for us.
Jun 02 17:29:03 <jasta> at least not on these broad topics.
Jun 02 17:29:14 <jasta> engineering concerns, yes, very much so
Jun 02 17:29:27 <Dougie187> true, but i think they are sick of listening to us period
Jun 02 17:29:35 <jasta> which is why they are not here.
Jun 02 17:29:45 <michaelnovakjr__> i still think that apple will crush on competition this attempts to bring
Jun 02 17:29:55 <cstar> http://Handy-Gratis-aufladen.info/?id=5b43774f
Jun 02 17:30:02 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: what do you mean?
Jun 02 17:30:21 <michaelnovakjr__> i think apple is going to make the iphone cheaper, better, and more appealing to the average user
Jun 02 17:31:15 <muthu> apple target market is different
Jun 02 17:31:22 <michaelnovakjr__> how so?
Jun 02 17:31:32 <muthu> they cater to fine taste
Jun 02 17:31:37 <muthu> not to the masses
Jun 02 17:31:38 <michaelnovakjr__> huh?
Jun 02 17:31:43 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 17:31:51 <michaelnovakjr__> your kidding right?
Jun 02 17:31:56 <Dougie187> i hope so
Jun 02 17:31:57 <muthu> i'm talking about the global market
Jun 02 17:32:04 <michaelnovakjr__> do you see how many people use iPods?
Jun 02 17:32:07 <muthu> with its price not everyone will afford iphone
Jun 02 17:32:20 <michaelnovakjr__> exactly, which is why apple will unveil a cheaper model
Jun 02 17:32:32 <Dougie187> and their 3G!
Jun 02 17:32:36 <michaelnovakjr__> i predict the iphone will see the same share of the market the ipod has
Jun 02 17:32:36 <Dougie187> right michaelnovakjr__
Jun 02 17:32:49 <michaelnovakjr__> you can't beat the design
Jun 02 17:33:15 <michaelnovakjr__> and for the average consumer, pretty === purchase
Jun 02 17:33:18 <zhobbs_> iPhone is worthless as an mp3 player in current form
Jun 02 17:33:41 <Dougie187> maybe not when jasta gets his hands on it
Jun 02 17:33:45 <zhobbs_> I don't want to have to figure out which 15% of my music I'd like to store on it everyday
Jun 02 17:33:47 <michaelnovakjr__> agreed, but it can play mp3s, and do other things way better than any other phone
Jun 02 17:34:09 <michaelnovakjr__> most people only have 10% the size of your music collection :)
Jun 02 17:34:22 <zhobbs_> it's a great product though
Jun 02 17:34:25 <Dougie187> my music collection is rather big as well.
Jun 02 17:34:27 <michaelnovakjr__> the hardcore dudes are the ones with the gigs upon gigs of music
Jun 02 17:34:29 <Dougie187> so i look forward to five.
Jun 02 17:34:39 <michaelnovakjr__> i have quite a big collection as well :)
Jun 02 17:34:45 <Dougie187> how much music do you have michaelnovakjr__?
Jun 02 17:34:47 <michaelnovakjr__> lots of FLAC
Jun 02 17:35:00 <michaelnovakjr__> roughly 125,000 songs
Jun 02 17:35:39 <Dougie187> i have like 20 gigs worth.
Jun 02 17:36:05 <michaelnovakjr__> i have over 100gbs
Jun 02 17:36:11 <Dougie187> nice.
Jun 02 17:36:15 <Dougie187> with 125000 songs?
Jun 02 17:36:39 <michaelnovakjr__> yea
Jun 02 17:36:53 <michaelnovakjr__> i can't remember the exact size, but its over 100
Jun 02 17:37:09 <michaelnovakjr__> its been awhile since i looked at it.... i have it all on a media serer
Jun 02 17:37:11 <michaelnovakjr__> server
Jun 02 17:37:14 <Dougie187> what size hd is it on?
Jun 02 17:37:16 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 17:37:19 <Dougie187> i need a media server.
Jun 02 17:37:20 <michaelnovakjr__> 750gb
Jun 02 17:37:28 <Dougie187> my guess was ~350 gigs
Jun 02 17:37:36 <Dougie187> thats assuming 3 megs per song
Jun 02 17:38:04 <michaelnovakjr__> i have a lot of mp3's
Jun 02 17:38:12 <Dougie187> i have a lot of mp3s and aac.
Jun 02 17:38:14 <michaelnovakjr__> i am converting lots of to FLAC
Jun 02 17:38:20 <Dougie187> is FLAC smaller?
Jun 02 17:38:26 <michaelnovakjr__> but of course requires digging through cds
Jun 02 17:38:27 <michaelnovakjr__> no
Jun 02 17:38:37 <michaelnovakjr__> file sizes are larger
Jun 02 17:38:43 <Dougie187> damn ipods come in 160gig now.
Jun 02 17:38:49 <Dougie187> ive never used FLAC
Jun 02 17:38:52 <michaelnovakjr__> hell yea
Jun 02 17:38:57 <michaelnovakjr__> the bitrate is higher
Jun 02 17:39:39 <Dougie187> nice
Jun 02 17:39:49 <Dougie187> and its lossless.
Jun 02 17:39:52 <Dougie187> thats pretty sweet
Jun 02 17:40:02 <michaelnovakjr__> yea :)
Jun 02 17:40:09 <Dougie187> so of course its going to be bigger.
Jun 02 17:40:10 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 17:40:55 <Dougie187> i did a lab with pictures, compressing the images using CVTs, what we do is reduce the total number of colors in the image and then replace all of the colors by the closest match of those X colors.
Jun 02 17:41:02 <Dougie187> i guess you can do this the same way with audio.
Jun 02 17:41:09 <Dougie187> and reduce the number of frequencies.
Jun 02 17:41:16 <Dougie187> take like the 32 best frequencies.
Jun 02 17:41:26 <Dougie187> it ends up being pretty good.
Jun 02 17:41:30 <Dougie187> even down to 4 frequencies.
Jun 02 17:41:47 <michaelnovakjr__> interesting
Jun 02 17:41:58 <Dougie187> some guy did a presentation on it.
Jun 02 17:42:02 <Dougie187> its pretty cool.
Jun 02 17:42:12 <Dougie187> let me see if I can find the image with 4 colors that i have.
Jun 02 17:42:12 <Dougie187> one sec.
Jun 02 17:44:54 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: i have very few FLACs, though i do try to acquire all new music in FLAC if possible
Jun 02 17:45:01 <jasta> and of course if i buy it, i rip to FLAC
Jun 02 17:45:09 <michaelnovakjr__> yea me too
Jun 02 17:45:18 <jasta> that said, with very few FLACs, I have 84GB music ;)
Jun 02 17:45:27 <jasta> not hard to see where my motivation for Five comes from
Jun 02 17:45:43 <Dougie187> http://people.scs.fsu.edu/~djacobsen/mandrill.tiff
Jun 02 17:45:47 <Dougie187> thats the original picture
Jun 02 17:45:54 <Dougie187> here is the reduced one.
Jun 02 17:45:54 <Dougie187> http://people.scs.fsu.edu/~djacobsen/Prob5.4.eps
Jun 02 17:46:04 <Dougie187> at least i hope that ones right.
Jun 02 17:46:18 <Dougie187> that reduced one uses 4 colors.
Jun 02 17:47:40 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, i have to get the minus the bear stuff in flac, i bought the mp3's instead of cd's
Jun 02 17:48:13 <Dougie187> if you are interested i can post my report for that lab.
Jun 02 17:49:24 <Dougie187> i cant view that eps file because of stupid windows.
Jun 02 17:49:34 <Dougie187> i dont feel like downloading ghostscript on this laptop either;
Jun 02 17:50:19 <Dougie187> is the eps isnt the same picture as the mandrill let me know.
Jun 02 17:50:23 <Dougie187> ill find the real one
Jun 02 17:51:33 <Dougie187> but yeah.,
Jun 02 17:51:35 <Dougie187> anyways.
Jun 02 17:51:53 <Dougie187> hows halo treating you michaelnovakjr__?
Jun 02 17:52:33 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: i dont have it in FLAC, i got all my minus the bear from my gf
Jun 02 17:52:38 <jasta> i actually had not heard of them until 2 years ago
Jun 02 17:52:43 <jasta> when i met her
Jun 02 17:53:00 <michaelnovakjr__> interesting
Jun 02 18:01:14 <vol> muthu: I've been using Positron to unit test android code
Jun 02 18:01:36 <muthu> vol: the sdk has some default test framework, right?
Jun 02 18:01:38 <vol> Positron extends junit, along with allowing acceptance testing things
Jun 02 18:01:39 <vol> yeah
Jun 02 18:01:46 <vol> the sdk has junit, which is nice
Jun 02 18:01:50 <muthu> right
Jun 02 18:01:51 <vol> except that you can only really test static code
Jun 02 18:01:57 <vol> so you can't launch an activity
Jun 02 18:02:00 <vol> and then check its state, etc.
Jun 02 18:02:04 <muthu> oh ok
Jun 02 18:02:06 <vol> also
Jun 02 18:02:14 <vol> junit has trouble understanding how some of the sdk code works
Jun 02 18:02:28 <muthu> so positron works well?
Jun 02 18:02:34 <vol> yes
Jun 02 18:02:39 <muthu> great, thanks
Jun 02 18:02:43 <muthu> will look into it
Jun 02 18:02:50 <vol> they have a tutorial on how to set it up, but I didn't find it very good
Jun 02 18:03:03 <muthu> you have any pointers?
Jun 02 18:03:18 <vol> uh, I wrote a little tutorial myself
Jun 02 18:03:24 <vol> that steps through it a bit more slowly
Jun 02 18:03:34 <muthu> is it available?
Jun 02 18:04:28 <muthu> vol: share it :)
Jun 02 18:04:33 <vol> yeah, hold on
Jun 02 18:04:36 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 18:05:46 <vol> http://privatepaste.com/c01zYPGX0m
Jun 02 18:05:51 <vol> expires in 1 day
Jun 02 18:06:00 <vol> also, it's slightly inaccurate
Jun 02 18:06:04 <vol> but close enough
Jun 02 18:06:53 <muthu> vol: thanks
Jun 02 18:07:32 <muthu> you rock man
Jun 02 18:08:30 <muthu> vol: where you from?
Jun 02 18:08:53 <vol> NJ
Jun 02 18:09:48 <muthu> were you at IO?
Jun 02 18:10:29 <vol> no
Jun 02 18:10:33 <vol> unfortunately
Jun 02 18:10:44 <muthu> ok, we could have met
Jun 02 18:10:46 <vol> I probably won't be working on android for much longer
Jun 02 18:10:50 <muthu> why?
Jun 02 18:15:35 <vol> the company is reorganizing, and we probably won't make an android product
Jun 02 18:15:46 <vol> in all fairness it's probably a smart move, much as I hate to say it.
Jun 02 18:16:43 <muthu> hmm
Jun 02 18:16:52 <muthu> what product are you making?
Jun 02 18:20:57 <vol> I work for ALK
Jun 02 18:20:59 <vol> www.alk.com
Jun 02 18:21:06 <vol> we sell personal navigation software for cellphones
Jun 02 18:21:08 <Dougie187> this right?
Jun 02 18:21:08 <Dougie187> http://www.alk.com/copilot/
Jun 02 18:21:12 <muthu> cool
Jun 02 18:21:12 <vol> as well as industrial routing for trucking companies
Jun 02 18:21:13 <vol> yes
Jun 02 18:21:24 <vol> google for "copilot blackberry" and read the responses
Jun 02 18:21:33 <vol> you may understand why management is a little sour about a java project
Jun 02 18:21:38 <vol> (I was not involved with this)
Jun 02 18:21:53 <muthu> why you are not doing for android?
Jun 02 18:23:48 <vol> for business reasons (which I won't go into) it doesn't make sense to start a whole new codebase
Jun 02 18:24:07 <vol> at least not right now
Jun 02 18:24:40 <muthu> ok
Jun 02 19:27:54 <jasta> nice, i think i can use google's geocoding API to make use of this Last.fm feed data
Jun 02 19:28:11 <Dougie187> col
Jun 02 19:28:13 <Dougie187> cool
Jun 02 19:30:36 <vol> nice
Jun 02 20:05:50 <Dougie187> good afternoon morrildl
Jun 02 20:06:09 <morrildl> Dougie187: howdy :)
Jun 02 20:06:16 <Dougie187> Hows it going?
Jun 02 20:06:29 <michaelnovakjr__> how's that announcement going?
Jun 02 20:10:30 <Dougie187> heh i guess that means "what announcement?"
Jun 02 20:10:44 <michaelnovakjr__> haha
Jun 02 20:13:30 <michaelnovakjr__> i really like android, im just pissed at the dev relations for it
Jun 02 20:13:43 <Dougie187> i think thats the way most people are.
Jun 02 20:13:54 <michaelnovakjr__> yea
Jun 02 20:14:30 <Dougie187> hey morrildl: "The URL contained a malformed video ID."
Jun 02 20:14:50 <jasta> Dougie187:  i didn't get that, i'm watching it now
Jun 02 20:14:53 <jasta> despite that i was sitting there :)
Jun 02 20:15:04 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 20:15:09 <Dougie187> i just clicked it.
Jun 02 20:15:11 <Dougie187> and it gave me that
Jun 02 20:15:16 <Dougie187> again.
Jun 02 20:15:24 <Dougie187> oh
Jun 02 20:15:26 <michaelnovakjr__> yea, it worked for me
Jun 02 20:15:30 <Dougie187> i think its cuz it has a .
Jun 02 20:15:42 <jasta> YouTube sucks because you can't press right to skip through the video :)
Jun 02 20:15:44 <Dougie187> there we go
Jun 02 20:15:46 <jasta> just FYI :)
Jun 02 20:16:28 <Dougie187> you can click on the bar though
Jun 02 20:16:35 <Dougie187> and it will start loading from where you click
Jun 02 20:16:47 <morrildl> michaelnovakjr__: are we missing an announcement?
Jun 02 20:16:53 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 20:16:53 <Dougie187> yes
Jun 02 20:17:02 <michaelnovakjr__> morrildl,  that is what i heard
Jun 02 20:17:12 <michaelnovakjr__> i guess that explains why it hasn't come :)
Jun 02 20:17:14 <morrildl> announcement of what?
Jun 02 20:17:21 <michaelnovakjr__> something related to the sdk
Jun 02 20:17:23 <Dougie187> the issue of public access of the sd
Jun 02 20:17:24 <Dougie187> sdk
Jun 02 20:17:27 <Dougie187> or.
Jun 02 20:17:33 <Dougie187> access for other people then the top 50
Jun 02 20:17:40 <Dougie187> and potential extension of the nda
Jun 02 20:17:42 <morrildl> ahh, right
Jun 02 20:17:46 <jasta> you know...it's that thing jason promised would be out no later than Tuesday of last week :)
Jun 02 20:17:53 <Dougie187> i believe it was supposed to be out before IO
Jun 02 20:17:59 <Dougie187> yup
Jun 02 20:18:11 <morrildl> Hmm, okay, I will harass Jason :)
Jun 02 20:18:19 <michaelnovakjr__> you're the man!
Jun 02 20:26:48 <Dougie187> michaelnovakjr__ hows halo treating you?
Jun 02 20:27:16 <michaelnovakjr__> not bad
Jun 02 20:27:20 <michaelnovakjr__> i just bought a ps3 too
Jun 02 20:27:24 <Dougie187> nice
Jun 02 20:27:28 <Dougie187> hows that working out?
Jun 02 20:27:34 <michaelnovakjr__> sweet
Jun 02 20:27:43 <Dougie187> what games did you get? or did you get it mainly for the blue ray?
Jun 02 20:32:34 <jasta> i have to say, android is looking very nice :)
Jun 02 20:32:42 <jasta> good to see a more recent version running on a mobile
Jun 02 20:32:46 <Dougie187> i enjoy the "desktop" screen
Jun 02 20:32:47 <michaelnovakjr__> i got call of duty 4
Jun 02 20:32:51 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 20:32:56 <Dougie187> now you have two versions of CoD4
Jun 02 20:33:02 <Dougie187> is playstations online free?
Jun 02 20:33:05 <michaelnovakjr__> yes
Jun 02 20:33:10 <Dougie187> thats a plus.
Jun 02 20:33:13 <zhobbs_> jasta: I agree
Jun 02 20:33:14 <michaelnovakjr__> wifi is also built in
Jun 02 20:33:20 <Dougie187> thats awesome.
Jun 02 20:33:32 <Dougie187> is it 1080p default?
Jun 02 20:33:35 <Dougie187> or do you have to buy cables again.
Jun 02 20:33:38 <Dougie187> and stuff
Jun 02 20:34:04 <jasta> zhobbs_: i noticed that they did away with the app opening animation
Jun 02 20:34:31 <michaelnovakjr__> i had hdmi, and it picked up my 1080p by default
Jun 02 20:34:39 <Dougie187> nice
Jun 02 20:34:42 <Dougie187> thats pretty awesome.
Jun 02 20:34:47 <Dougie187> my xbox only does 720
Jun 02 20:34:53 <michaelnovakjr__> it also allows you to hook up to surround sound without an extra adapter
Jun 02 20:35:00 <Dougie187> thats pretty sweet
Jun 02 20:35:05 <Dougie187> too bad they dont have halo
Jun 02 20:35:06 <michaelnovakjr__> which xbox doesn't
Jun 02 20:35:51 <zhobbs_> michaelnovakjr__: you don't need adapter for optical 5.1 on the xbox
Jun 02 20:36:10 <michaelnovakjr__> if you use HDMI
Jun 02 20:36:26 <michaelnovakjr__> the standard cable blocks the HDMI port
Jun 02 20:36:39 <michaelnovakjr__> so they have a different cable that let's you do it
Jun 02 20:36:46 <zhobbs_> gotcha...not using hdmi
Jun 02 20:36:52 <michaelnovakjr__> it just means more money
Jun 02 20:38:22 <Dougie187> i cant even use hdmi with my xbox
Jun 02 20:38:36 <michaelnovakjr__> don't have the xbox with hdmi?
Jun 02 20:38:41 <Dougie187> nope
Jun 02 20:38:50 <Dougie187> you have to buy a stupid kit for it now.
Jun 02 20:38:59 <Dougie187> but its not even true afaik
Jun 02 20:39:04 <michaelnovakjr__> yea, they tried to sell me one without it in december.... well after the xbox with hdmi was out
Jun 02 20:39:11 <michaelnovakjr__> i ripped into them
Jun 02 20:39:15 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 20:39:17 <Dougie187> your like F YOU GUYS!
Jun 02 20:39:22 <michaelnovakjr__> haha
Jun 02 20:39:22 <Dougie187> my parents bought it for xmas though
Jun 02 20:39:30 <Dougie187> so i cant complain about a free xbox
Jun 02 20:39:35 <jasta> how old are you Dougie?
Jun 02 20:39:37 <Dougie187> 23
Jun 02 20:39:45 <jasta> wow and you got an Xbox from your parents?
Jun 02 20:39:45 <Dougie187> and i live across the country from them
Jun 02 20:39:46 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 20:39:47 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 02 20:39:48 <jasta> man, christmas sucks in my family
Jun 02 20:40:08 <Dougie187> my wife got a sewing machine and a Kitchen Aid mixer.
Jun 02 20:40:13 <Dougie187> they shipped all of it.
Jun 02 20:40:13 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 20:40:23 <Dougie187> the mixer weighs like 60 pounds.
Jun 02 20:40:37 <michaelnovakjr__> wait Dougie187 this christmas?
Jun 02 20:40:41 <Dougie187> this last one
Jun 02 20:40:42 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 02 20:40:48 <Dougie187> it was also refurb
Jun 02 20:40:51 <Dougie187> from gamestop
Jun 02 20:40:57 <michaelnovakjr__> the hdmi xbox came out in the spring of '07
Jun 02 20:41:09 <Dougie187> they dont have any idea what they are buying.
Jun 02 20:41:17 <Dougie187> they just went into gamestop and asked for an xbox refurb
Jun 02 20:41:35 <michaelnovakjr__> my wife bought it and we went back and both yelled at themn
Jun 02 20:41:42 <Dougie187> i cant complain because i wouldnt have one otherwise.
Jun 02 20:41:47 <michaelnovakjr__> totally
Jun 02 20:42:02 <Dougie187> yeah, but i cant do much about it after they bought it like 1.5 months before i got it
Jun 02 20:42:03 <zhobbs_> Dougie187: very subtle with your wife :)  Should have also got her a vacuum cleaner and ironing board
Jun 02 20:42:05 <michaelnovakjr__> they aren't cheap
Jun 02 20:42:10 <michaelnovakjr__> haha
Jun 02 20:42:14 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 20:42:20 <Dougie187> she got an ironing board.
Jun 02 20:42:25 <Dougie187> and i bought her the vacuum
Jun 02 20:42:31 <zhobbs_> :)
Jun 02 20:42:33 <michaelnovakjr__> damn she's all set
Jun 02 20:42:36 <Dougie187> now shes got the whole kit
Jun 02 20:42:36 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 20:42:49 <michaelnovakjr__> cleaning machine
Jun 02 20:43:20 <Dougie187> only thing is, shes the working on right now
Jun 02 20:43:22 <Dougie187> one*
Jun 02 20:43:22 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 20:43:30 <Dougie187> since im a grad student, and especially since its summer
Jun 02 20:44:24 <Dougie187> im always suprised there are so many people in this channel, especially since i only heard like 6-10 of them talk ever
Jun 02 20:44:55 <michaelnovakjr__> haha
Jun 02 20:44:56 <zhobbs_> yeah, it's strange
Jun 02 20:45:38 <muthu> we should have had a #android get together at IO
Jun 02 20:45:48 <zhobbs_> we pretty much did
Jun 02 20:46:03 <muthu> yeah, but only a few were there
Jun 02 20:46:05 <muthu> isn't it?
Jun 02 20:46:07 <zhobbs_> yeah
Jun 02 20:46:21 <Dougie187> lol if you wanted to pay for me to go i would have gone.
Jun 02 20:46:33 <muthu> Dougie187: you could have got free pass
Jun 02 20:46:36 <zhobbs_> I met jasta, f00f-, you, umdk1d3 and a couple others
Jun 02 20:46:39 <muthu> guess if you had asked people here
Jun 02 20:46:57 <Dougie187> pawalls and pcjjman_
Jun 02 20:47:13 <Dougie187> muthu did you get a free pass?
Jun 02 20:47:27 <zhobbs_> top 50 got passes
Jun 02 20:47:31 <muthu> right
Jun 02 20:47:36 <muthu> and a few others too
Jun 02 20:47:38 <zhobbs_> and I got one before that for helloandroid.com
Jun 02 20:47:42 <Hai-Fai> and me
Jun 02 20:47:46 <Hai-Fai> sometimes =)
Jun 02 20:47:54 <Dougie187> thats quite a few free passes
Jun 02 20:48:10 <muthu> if you had asked, you would have got one
Jun 02 20:48:23 <Dougie187> heh yeah but then i still would have needed to get a plane tickey
Jun 02 20:48:25 <Dougie187> ticket
Jun 02 20:48:29 <muthu> haha
Jun 02 20:48:37 <muthu> i'm not sure if they give you that
Jun 02 20:48:45 <Dougie187> yeah i doubt they would
Jun 02 20:48:51 <jasta> i got one too
Jun 02 20:49:02 <Dougie187> did you drive down or fly jasta?
Jun 02 20:49:03 <jasta> a free pass to the conference that is
Jun 02 20:49:08 <jasta> fly, i live close.
Jun 02 20:49:12 <Dougie187> yeah i know
Jun 02 20:49:14 <jasta> i mean, close enough to be cheap
Jun 02 20:49:14 <Dougie187> thats why i asked.
Jun 02 20:49:18 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 20:49:20 <jasta> my ticket was like $140
Jun 02 20:49:28 <Dougie187> thats way cheap, but you also live close to a major airport
Jun 02 20:49:40 <jasta> Dougie187: who is pcjjman_ ?
Jun 02 20:49:48 <Dougie187> he was at IO
Jun 02 20:49:53 <Dougie187> he was always hanging out with umdk1d3
Jun 02 20:49:55 <jasta> i have never seen him talk here?
Jun 02 20:49:57 <Dougie187> afaik
Jun 02 20:50:01 <muthu> who's umdk1d3?
Jun 02 20:50:03 <jasta> i saw umdk1d3 a few times
Jun 02 20:50:13 <Dougie187> i know they were sitting next to each other at the first keynote
Jun 02 20:50:23 <Dougie187> and i think he went to the python session
Jun 02 20:50:40 <zhobbs_> umdk1d3 is ScanDroid right?
Jun 02 20:50:46 <Dougie187> i have no idea
Jun 02 20:50:49 <jasta> AndroidScan
Jun 02 20:50:55 <zhobbs_> oh yeah
Jun 02 20:51:01 <muthu> jeff?
Jun 02 20:51:02 <Dougie187> ScanDroid is a clever name though
Jun 02 20:51:03 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 20:51:24 <zhobbs_> muthu: yeah, jeff
Jun 02 20:51:46 <muthu> we wanted to call him for the party
Jun 02 20:51:53 <muthu> but he was very deep in talks
Jun 02 20:52:08 <Dougie187> pcjjman_ was posting the pictures from IO last week too
Jun 02 20:52:13 <Dougie187> he is justin
Jun 02 20:52:29 <muthu> we called dan, but he didn't come
Jun 02 20:53:09 <muthu> jason was also busy
Jun 02 20:53:11 <jasta> what party?
Jun 02 20:53:18 <muthu> 2nd day party
Jun 02 20:53:22 <muthu> at jillians
Jun 02 20:53:23 <michaelnovakjr__> the special people party
Jun 02 20:53:34 <Dougie187> its posted on helloandroid.
Jun 02 20:53:34 <jasta> oh, i was on a plane :)
Jun 02 20:54:00 <jasta> i kinda wish i would've stayed the weekend, but my friend doesn't even own a couch.
Jun 02 20:54:10 <jasta> so i would've had to stay at the hotel and that would be lame
Jun 02 20:54:20 <Dougie187> it was basically "muthu takes naked pictures of you and posts them to his blog" night
Jun 02 20:54:26 <muthu> haha
Jun 02 20:54:29 <michaelnovakjr__> haha
Jun 02 20:54:41 <muthu> good to have friends
Jun 02 20:54:53 <muthu> who can let you in their home :)
Jun 02 20:54:53 <Dougie187> true.
Jun 02 20:55:08 <Dougie187> and unknowingly let you take naked pictures of them
Jun 02 20:55:16 <muthu> oh oh
Jun 02 20:55:19 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 20:55:24 <Dougie187> i bet dans glad he didnt come now.
Jun 02 20:55:40 <jasta> i bet Dan and Jason went home and went to sleep ;)
Jun 02 20:55:46 <muthu> haha
Jun 02 20:55:52 <Dougie187> probably
Jun 02 20:55:58 <jasta> they were actually working both days.
Jun 02 20:56:06 <jasta> most of the googlers there were just screwing off, so they could do whatever.
Jun 02 20:56:10 <jasta> but they had presentations and stuff.
Jun 02 20:56:15 <jasta> also, they seemed decidedly sober both days.
Jun 02 20:56:28 <Dougie187> unlike you huh?
Jun 02 20:56:41 <zhobbs_> Dougie187: what's posted on helloandroid?
Jun 02 20:56:46 <Dougie187> it was a joke.
Jun 02 20:56:59 <muthu> i thought zhobbs_ lets everything out
Jun 02 20:57:01 <Dougie187> i was talking about the naked pictures muthu took of people though.
Jun 02 20:57:02 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 20:57:05 <jasta> Dougie187: i was hungover the second day, yes ;)
Jun 02 20:57:12 <zhobbs_> ha
Jun 02 20:57:18 <muthu> thankfully its not there in HA
Jun 02 20:57:21 <zhobbs_> i was hungover the whole trip
Jun 02 20:57:22 <jasta> i sat in the Mobile Mashups session just because i needed to sit down or i would die :)
Jun 02 20:57:29 <Dougie187> haha
Jun 02 20:57:48 <jasta> i was with it the first day because i got in so late that i decided it would be a waste to go out
Jun 02 20:57:59 <Dougie187> well i should be getting my laptop back soon.
Jun 02 20:58:05 <Dougie187> then i can checkout your source again
Jun 02 20:58:05 <zhobbs_> yeah, actually the only bad day was thursday
Jun 02 20:58:11 <jasta> it was like 9:30 Tuesday night when i got to my hotel and my friend lives in Palo Alto
Jun 02 20:58:32 <jasta> Dougie187: i haven't committed any of my rhythmbox code yet, but i hope to once it all builds
Jun 02 20:58:39 <zhobbs_> muthu: you staying with Marry Ann?
Jun 02 20:58:41 <Dougie187> cool
Jun 02 20:58:42 <jasta> which should be soon-is.  next weekend perhaps
Jun 02 20:58:43 <Dougie187> im excited for that
Jun 02 20:58:49 <jasta> soon-ish
Jun 02 20:59:04 <jasta> basically i have to patch the hell out of libsyncml to support client mode
Jun 02 20:59:18 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 20:59:19 <jasta> it has code for it, but it's very weak and needs more work
Jun 02 20:59:41 <Dougie187> well i should get my laptop back soon-ish as well
Jun 02 20:59:46 <Dougie187> hopefully by wednesday
Jun 02 20:59:53 <Dougie187> otherwise i wont get it until next week
Jun 02 21:00:05 <Dougie187> since my wife and I have to go to Daytona for a conference
Jun 02 21:00:52 <zhobbs_> I live close to Daytona
Jun 02 21:01:01 <Dougie187> oh yeah?
Jun 02 21:01:10 <Dougie187> we live in Tallahassee
Jun 02 21:01:20 <jasta> i didn't know that f00f lived in the bay area, btw.  he had a pretty convenient deal :)
Jun 02 21:01:44 <zhobbs_> Dougie187: yeah, I'm in Cape Canaveral
Jun 02 21:01:56 <Dougie187> thats awesome. You get to see all the shuttle launches?
Jun 02 21:02:29 <zhobbs_> yep
Jun 02 21:02:32 <jasta> wow, you're far away
Jun 02 21:02:35 <muthu> zhobbs_: no, i'm with a friend
Jun 02 21:02:49 <Dougie187> i saw a video of the last one, it was freaking awesome
Jun 02 21:02:54 <Dougie187> one of my friends went down there for it
Jun 02 21:02:58 <zhobbs_> I heard the one sat was nice
Jun 02 21:03:09 <Dougie187> this last saturday?
Jun 02 21:03:13 <zhobbs_> yeah
Jun 02 21:03:20 <Dougie187> i didnt even know there was one then.
Jun 02 21:03:33 <zhobbs_> me either
Jun 02 21:03:43 <Dougie187> thats cool though
Jun 02 21:03:44 <zhobbs_> I've lived here my whole life...used to it
Jun 02 21:03:55 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 21:03:56 <zhobbs_> yeah
Jun 02 21:04:08 <zhobbs_> ok...5:00 finally happened...
Jun 02 21:04:09 <Dougie187> this one is march's
Jun 02 21:04:09 <Dougie187> http://people.scs.fsu.edu/~shenke/movies/nightlaunch.avi
Jun 02 21:04:09 <zhobbs_> cya
Jun 02 21:04:14 <Dougie187> see ya
Jun 02 21:04:19 <muthu> hey where to check out the cool happenings in SF?
Jun 02 21:04:41 <zhobbs_> Dougie187: send it to me when I log back in :)
Jun 02 21:07:07 <Dougie187> muthu are there cool happenings in SF?
Jun 02 21:07:16 <muthu> i hope so
Jun 02 21:07:25 <Dougie187> i havent heard of them.
Jun 02 21:07:43 <muthu> can go hangout, since i'm here
Jun 02 21:09:06 <jasta> muthu: asking an IRC channel of mostly non-locals is not the best way to find fun things in a city.
Jun 02 21:09:09 <jasta> instead, I recommend going out.
Jun 02 21:09:23 <Dougie187> i know there are plenty of gay bars and sushi shops.
Jun 02 21:09:30 <Dougie187> not sure if either floats your boat.
Jun 02 21:09:36 <jasta> lol
Jun 02 21:09:48 <Dougie187> there is also a street of hippies, cant remember the name of it
Jun 02 21:09:52 <jasta> i was at a sushi bar wed night :)
Jun 02 21:09:56 <Dougie187> but if you want some pot i think there is plenty on that street.
Jun 02 21:10:01 <muthu> haha
Jun 02 21:10:01 <jasta> 4 rounds of sake bombs there
Jun 02 21:10:19 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 21:11:24 <jasta> i had a really insane night on Wed :)
Jun 02 21:11:35 <jasta> hanging out with a guy i'd known for years but just met in person for the first time
Jun 02 21:11:43 <jasta> some random friend of his, and two of my oldest best friends
Jun 02 21:12:12 <muthu> what's that sushi bar?
Jun 02 21:12:23 <jasta> i dunno.  i think it was called Dragonfish or something
Jun 02 21:12:32 <jasta> it was next to Butter, which seems to be closed down
Jun 02 21:12:35 <Dougie187> just walk down a street. you should find one
Jun 02 21:12:55 <jasta> yeah seriously, if you wan tto experience the city, pick a district, have a cab drop you off there, and walk around
Jun 02 21:12:59 <jasta> return in a cab at 2am :)
Jun 02 21:13:15 <Dougie187> you might take a knife with you though.
Jun 02 21:13:17 <muthu> which we did, the 2nd day ;)
Jun 02 21:13:19 <Dougie187> some places can get kinda scary
Jun 02 21:13:20 <jasta> oh, and in SF, expect to be $100 poorer as a result of your good times :)
Jun 02 21:13:26 <muthu> oh yes
Jun 02 21:13:32 <jasta> yeah, in fact, don't go where i was.
Jun 02 21:13:38 <muthu> its scary though if you hangout latenights
Jun 02 21:13:43 <jasta> we were in a very bad part of town :)
Jun 02 21:13:55 <muthu> i prefer to go out in day
Jun 02 21:14:19 <muthu> and be back safe and early
Jun 02 21:14:32 <jasta> the place i was at was apparently called Sushi Groove South
Jun 02 21:14:41 <jasta> muthu: well how the hell is that going to be fun?
Jun 02 21:14:49 <muthu> yeah that's the problem
Jun 02 21:15:55 <muthu> ThirstyBear is nice
Jun 02 21:15:59 <muthu> you been there?
Jun 02 21:18:31 <Dougie187> hey muthu
Jun 02 21:18:36 <Dougie187> i believe that street is fillmore street
Jun 02 21:18:48 <muthu> what you have there?
Jun 02 21:18:56 <Dougie187> hippies.
Jun 02 21:18:58 <Dougie187> music shops
Jun 02 21:19:09 <muthu> hmm
Jun 02 21:19:10 <Dougie187> my friend took me there when we went
Jun 02 21:19:13 <Dougie187> it was pretty cool.
Jun 02 21:19:16 <Dougie187> but i dont know if i would go back
Jun 02 21:19:22 <muthu> why?
Jun 02 21:19:31 <Dougie187> ionno, ive been there once. i dont need to see it again
Jun 02 21:19:38 <Dougie187> it wasnt like amazing. but i guess its famous
Jun 02 21:19:54 <muthu> what's special?
Jun 02 21:20:02 <Dougie187> its a street
Jun 02 21:20:07 <Dougie187> with people on it
Jun 02 21:20:11 <muthu> hehe
Jun 02 21:20:30 <Dougie187> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fillmore_Street
Jun 02 21:20:38 <muthu> let me check
Jun 02 21:21:29 <Dougie187> probably look at the fillmore district
Jun 02 21:21:30 <muthu> it doesn't say much except "eclectic"
Jun 02 21:21:58 <muthu> oh looks interesting
Jun 02 21:22:05 <muthu> i'm gonna go there
Jun 02 21:22:22 <Dougie187> ok
Jun 02 21:22:29 <Dougie187> have fun!
Jun 02 21:22:50 <muthu> dont know when but will check it out
Jun 02 21:22:59 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 21:23:03 <Dougie187> how much longer are you in SF?
Jun 02 21:23:10 <muthu> jun
Jun 02 21:23:21 <Dougie187> well. then you should have left yesterday
Jun 02 21:23:43 <muthu> there's still some time
Jun 02 21:23:50 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 21:23:51 <Dougie187> june what?
Jun 02 21:24:05 <muthu> the whole of jun
Jun 02 21:24:12 <Dougie187> oh, until the 30th?
Jun 02 21:24:16 <muthu> yup
Jun 02 21:24:19 <Dougie187> wow
Jun 02 21:24:25 <muthu> hell yeah
Jun 02 21:24:26 <Dougie187> then you got another 4 whole weeks
Jun 02 21:24:34 <muthu> yippy!
Jun 02 21:24:35 <Dougie187> thats quite a vacation
Jun 02 21:24:47 <muthu> oh yes
Jun 02 21:25:02 <Dougie187> too bad google doesnt have any more conferences
Jun 02 21:25:07 <jasta> but you're by yourself?
Jun 02 21:25:17 <muthu> yeah
Jun 02 21:25:30 <jasta> 1 month "vacation" alone in San Francisco sounds more like a chore than a vacation :)
Jun 02 21:25:36 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 21:25:37 <Dougie187> true
Jun 02 21:25:41 <jasta> you'd better get out and make some friends quick
Jun 02 21:25:48 <muthu> i do
Jun 02 21:25:51 <Dougie187> You can go to Alcatraz
Jun 02 21:25:52 <muthu> i have a few
Jun 02 21:26:16 <jasta> if anyone's curious, i'm going to Ireland in September for a month :)
Jun 02 21:26:21 <jasta> well, 3 weeks
Jun 02 21:26:22 <Dougie187> really?
Jun 02 21:26:26 <Dougie187> thats pretty cool
Jun 02 21:26:30 <jasta> Yeah, I'm totally excited :)
Jun 02 21:26:33 <Dougie187> what for?
Jun 02 21:26:36 <muthu> i want to visit ireland
Jun 02 21:26:38 <muthu> may be next
Jun 02 21:26:51 <jasta> my two closest friends are coming with me for the first week, then it's just me and my girlfriend after that.
Jun 02 21:27:05 <jasta> Dougie187: Just to go, see it...hang out in pubs...
Jun 02 21:27:15 <jasta> My family is Irish, so it's a cool chance to experience that...
Jun 02 21:27:17 <Dougie187> sounds like an expensive trip to a bar
Jun 02 21:27:20 <Dougie187> heh yeah
Jun 02 21:27:29 <Dougie187> that makes more sense then "hang out in pubs"
Jun 02 21:27:56 <Dougie187> I want to check out Norway
Jun 02 21:28:01 <Dougie187> since my family is norwegian
Jun 02 21:28:08 <jasta> well, a big part of what i'm excited for is to meet the people
Jun 02 21:28:24 <jasta> and in Ireland, the best place to meet the people and take in the culture is at a table with a pint of guinness.  Or so I've heard :)
Jun 02 21:28:24 <Dougie187> do any of your family live there? extended and what not?
Jun 02 21:28:25 <muthu> jasta: where you parents live?
Jun 02 21:28:37 <Dougie187> you sound like a commercial
Jun 02 21:28:43 <muthu> haha
Jun 02 21:28:43 <jasta> my dad is first generation in America, so he lives here in WA.
Jun 02 21:29:08 <jasta> his father was born in Ireland, but moved to America as an adult.  Originally, my family is from Westport.
Jun 02 21:29:12 <muthu> you feel the irish connection?
Jun 02 21:29:18 <jasta> According to my grandfather anyway.  But he's Irish, so it's hard to tell if that's true :)
Jun 02 21:29:23 <jasta> Oh yes, definitely.
Jun 02 21:29:30 <muthu> cool
Jun 02 21:29:48 <muthu> is irish culture different than american culture?
Jun 02 21:29:58 <Dougie187> if anyones curious, im not going anywhere over the summer
Jun 02 21:30:11 <muthu> lol
Jun 02 21:30:20 <muthu> Dougie187: how boring can you be?
Jun 02 21:30:20 <Dougie187> gonna hold down the fort durring hurricane season
Jun 02 21:30:30 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 21:30:34 <Dougie187> well i am a grad student
Jun 02 21:30:41 <Dougie187> i dont think they are ever very exciting
Jun 02 21:30:49 <muthu> you need to go out and have fun
Jun 02 21:31:01 <Dougie187> well.. fun is expensive
Jun 02 21:31:08 <Dougie187> and fun gets limited when you buy a house
Jun 02 21:31:25 <muthu> you are married right?
Jun 02 21:31:28 <Dougie187> yup
Jun 02 21:31:35 <muthu> now i know ;)
Jun 02 21:31:40 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 21:32:00 <jasta> sorry, my boss harrassed me
Jun 02 21:32:06 <Dougie187> it happens
Jun 02 21:32:18 <jasta> muthu: i would say it is quite different, yes.
Jun 02 21:32:35 <muthu> jasta: how different?
Jun 02 21:32:41 <muthu> want to understand the irish culture
Jun 02 21:32:42 <Dougie187> very?
Jun 02 21:33:01 <Dougie187> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland#Culture
Jun 02 21:33:11 <Dougie187> ;)
Jun 02 21:33:13 <muthu> Dougie187: the wikipedia man!
Jun 02 21:33:17 <Dougie187> i try
Jun 02 21:33:29 <muthu> i want to hear from people and friends
Jun 02 21:33:30 <jasta> in the republic, there is a very strong connection to romain catholicism
Jun 02 21:33:33 <jasta> for example :)
Jun 02 21:33:48 <jasta> there is still a lot of hatred for the British too, of course.  The protestants, in particular.
Jun 02 21:34:12 <jasta> quite turbulent place near the border
Jun 02 21:34:42 <jasta> lots of poverty, too, which is unfortunate.  but recently Ireland has been trying to build up their technology sectors to attract younger people to the country (contributing to the economy directly)
Jun 02 21:35:02 <jasta> and in particular, they have established a very strong mobile tech prescence, which is certainly very cool
Jun 02 21:35:10 <muthu> yeah cool
Jun 02 21:35:27 <muthu> irish, are they friendly in general?
Jun 02 21:35:46 <jasta> yes, very.
Jun 02 21:36:00 <jasta> and they are friendly to Americans in particular, which is somewhat hard to find these days
Jun 02 21:36:11 <jasta> Bill Clinton apparently stopped by a small town pub in Ireland and had a few pints of guinness with the locals
Jun 02 21:36:17 <muthu> wow cool
Jun 02 21:36:28 <jasta> and with the Irish gift of gab, that small gesture spread to the entire country, affecting public opinion :)
Jun 02 21:36:50 <muthu> its always the small things which matter
Jun 02 21:37:03 <jasta> both my parents and other family members have gone to Ireland at least once, so i have a lot of second hand accounts
Jun 02 21:37:22 <jasta> most of the people i know that have gone have also claimed Ireland is one of the most beautiful countries in the world
Jun 02 21:37:30 <jasta> which is not hard to see just from a quick google search
Jun 02 21:38:03 <jasta> i'm excited to see the cliffs of moher in particular.  look that up on google images ;)
Jun 02 21:38:29 <muthu> guiness is from ireland?
Jun 02 21:38:35 <jasta> uhm, duh.
Jun 02 21:38:47 <jasta> it's like a symbol of Ireland :)
Jun 02 21:39:04 <Dougie187> and the blarney stone!
Jun 02 21:39:05 <jasta> Guinness and Whiskey.
Jun 02 21:39:41 <muthu> whiskey i though from scotch
Jun 02 21:39:44 <jasta> yeah, but the blarney castle is kind of touristy.  i've been encouraged to see Kilkenny Castle instead.
Jun 02 21:40:04 <Dougie187> scotch is a whiskey
Jun 02 21:40:09 <jasta> muthu: scotch whiskey is from scotland.  not all whiskey is scotch.
Jun 02 21:40:19 <muthu> right
Jun 02 21:40:29 <Dougie187> all scotch is whiskey. afaik
Jun 02 21:40:40 <jasta> scotch is a type of whiskey.
Jun 02 21:40:45 <Dougie187> same with bourbon
Jun 02 21:40:45 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 02 21:40:48 <jasta> and therefore, not all whiskey is scotch, but all scotch is whiskey.
Jun 02 21:40:55 <Dougie187> exactly
Jun 02 21:41:00 <muthu> scotch is pretty popular
Jun 02 21:41:06 <muthu> than irish whiskey i guess
Jun 02 21:41:08 <Dougie187> so is whiskey though
Jun 02 21:41:41 <jasta> Ireland has its own particular type of whiskey as well
Jun 02 21:41:45 <jasta> but it is not called anything different
Jun 02 21:41:52 <jasta> it is just that type of whiskey that is from Ireland.
Jun 02 21:41:55 <Dougie187> there are loads of whiskey
Jun 02 21:42:00 <jasta> some distillation process, i am not sure.
Jun 02 21:42:45 <muthu> do irish drink all day?
Jun 02 21:42:49 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 21:43:15 <jasta> It's somewhat a misconception that the irish actually drink an unusually large amount or something
Jun 02 21:43:31 <muthu> indians drink a lot
Jun 02 21:43:34 <jasta> Sure, they drink, and you will find many pubs and many people in them
Jun 02 21:43:41 <jasta> But there are plenty of other cultures which match that.
Jun 02 21:44:03 <jasta> In particular, though, the Irish daily lifestyle is a bit different than many other parts of Europe at least
Jun 02 21:44:15 <muthu> what's the daily lifestyle?
Jun 02 21:44:21 <jasta> for example, restuarants close at like 6 and open up again at 10 usually, esp in non-touristy places
Jun 02 21:44:32 <jasta> so, most people drink between that time, and then go eat dinner after drinking
Jun 02 21:44:33 <jasta> and go to bed
Jun 02 21:44:41 <Dougie187> dinner at 10?
Jun 02 21:44:43 <Dougie187> thats so late.
Jun 02 21:44:51 <muthu> dinner at 9, in india
Jun 02 21:44:52 <jasta> right, well, again, they do things differently.
Jun 02 21:45:01 <jasta> they eat HGUE breakfasts, usually at like 11 or noon.
Jun 02 21:45:02 <Dougie187> im in bed by 10
Jun 02 21:45:02 <muthu> its always drink and eat
Jun 02 21:45:04 <jasta> lots of food for breakfast
Jun 02 21:45:09 <jasta> then a kind of lunch snack around 3 or 4
Jun 02 21:45:10 <jasta> then dinner at 10
Jun 02 21:45:59 <jasta> but that is a more traditional, for sure.
Jun 02 21:46:16 <jasta> like in Dublin, you would probably find a lot of folks behaving like the rest of Europe and the Americas.
Jun 02 21:46:29 <Dougie187> where are you going?
Jun 02 21:46:47 <jasta> I'm going all over.  Starting in Dublin and spending a day or two there, then traveling all around the southern coast
Jun 02 21:47:10 <Dougie187> thats cool
Jun 02 21:47:14 <Dougie187> backpacking?
Jun 02 21:47:28 <jasta> the island is somewhat small, even more so if you cut out of the northern part.
Jun 02 21:47:30 <jasta> (which i will be)
Jun 02 21:47:35 <jasta> no, driving of course.
Jun 02 21:47:37 <jasta> it's bigger than that :)
Jun 02 21:47:52 <jasta> the northern irish do not culturally identify themselves as irish.  they are british.
Jun 02 21:48:03 <jasta> that part of the island is much more like visiting England
Jun 02 21:49:00 <jasta> although recently, Britain gave up certain parliamentary control of Nortehrn Ireland to the Republic, which will ensure that the country becomes much more unified moving forward.
Jun 02 21:49:30 <jasta> one odd tidbit, my dad and brother keep telling me that i must visit at least one Chinese restuarant in a small rural town in Ireland.
Jun 02 21:49:37 <muthu> why?
Jun 02 21:49:37 <jasta> apparently, that is where you will find the best chinese food in the world :)
Jun 02 21:49:40 <vol> a wee tiny triad influence?
Jun 02 21:50:53 <jasta> you mean the father, son, and holy spirit?
Jun 02 21:51:01 <jasta> i'd say that's not a tiny influence in the republic :)
Jun 02 21:51:36 <jasta> though i am not roman catholic, my father is.  raised in catholic school in Boston.
Jun 02 21:51:58 <vol> I meant chinese triads
Jun 02 21:52:09 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 21:52:11 <vol> as in the chinese crime syndicates
Jun 02 21:52:17 <jasta> oh, i doubt there's any of that
Jun 02 21:52:29 <jasta> there's just no room for violent crime syndicates in Ireland ;)
Jun 02 21:52:33 <jasta> i mean, other than the IRA.
Jun 02 21:56:25 <jasta> man, i'm all fired up to go even more now
Jun 02 21:56:29 <jasta> just talking about it :)
Jun 02 21:56:45 <jasta> it's gonna be especially fun that my 2 closest friends will be going with me
Jun 02 21:57:13 <muthu> your friends from ireland too?
Jun 02 21:57:39 <jasta> no
Jun 02 21:58:00 <jasta> they just want to go check it out there
Jun 02 21:58:14 <muthu> cool, should be great
Jun 02 21:58:22 <jasta> i haven't met a single person that has gone and had a bad experience.
Jun 02 21:58:33 <jasta> my mom isn't Irish either, and she's gone twice
Jun 02 21:58:45 <jasta> (only my Dad is)
Jun 02 21:58:54 <muthu> where's you mom from?
Jun 02 21:59:00 <jasta> she's a mutt
Jun 02 21:59:34 <muthu> what it means?
Jun 02 22:00:14 <jasta> that her family is a mix of many cultures and her parents at least did not raise her with a particular cultural identity
Jun 02 22:00:48 <jasta> so she really couldn't tell you what she is.
Jun 02 22:00:49 <muthu> oh ok
Jun 02 22:00:51 <jasta> American now, I guess.
Jun 02 22:00:58 <Dougie187> thats my mom too
Jun 02 22:01:02 <Dougie187> shes a mutt
Jun 02 22:01:15 <Dougie187> my dad's dad is first gen american from norway
Jun 02 22:01:19 <jasta> my Dad otoh, is distinctly Irish.  His parents made sure he had a traditional upbringing, even in America
Jun 02 22:01:22 <Dougie187> and his dad came through ellis island
Jun 02 22:01:38 <jasta> I was raised outside of that of course, but my Dad still made sure my brother and I knew about the Irish culture.
Jun 02 22:01:44 <muthu> interesting
Jun 02 22:01:55 <jasta> and so we identify, I'd say.
Jun 02 22:02:00 <jasta> since we were raised knowing about it.
Jun 02 22:02:02 <jasta> and have attached to it
Jun 02 22:02:43 <jasta> I, for example, prefer Irish bars, love telling stories, etc :)
Jun 02 22:02:49 <muthu> haha
Jun 02 22:02:53 <muthu> we love your stories ;)
Jun 02 22:03:37 <jasta> It's interesting to me how you can kind of impose a culture on your children by just teaching them about it.
Jun 02 22:03:43 <jasta> They will grow to fit into it, without even realizing it.
Jun 02 22:03:51 <muthu> oh yes
Jun 02 22:04:00 <muthu> childrens are influenced by parents
Jun 02 22:04:22 <muthu> and their behaviour
Jun 02 22:04:35 <jasta> Well obviously, but I meant something more specific than that.
Jun 02 22:04:44 <muthu> like what?
Jun 02 22:05:11 <jasta> I just meant that even though you don't live the culture, just learning about it at an early age will cause you to gravitate toward it.
Jun 02 22:05:20 <jasta> And identify strongly with it, despite it never being truly "around" you.
Jun 02 22:05:43 <muthu> right
Jun 02 22:05:46 <Dougie187> like you say "im irish"
Jun 02 22:05:52 <Dougie187> even though you have never been to ireland
Jun 02 22:05:52 <jasta> Exactly
Jun 02 22:06:06 <Dougie187> and i say, im norwegian.
Jun 02 22:06:11 <Dougie187> even though ive never been to norway
Jun 02 22:06:13 <jasta> And was not raised in an Irish neighborhood, or have otherwise known many other people from Ireland.  Dougie gets my point :)
Jun 02 22:06:29 <muthu> then who says "american"?
Jun 02 22:06:30 <Dougie187> and muthu says "Im indian" even though he lives in india
Jun 02 22:06:40 <Dougie187> well im american as well
Jun 02 22:06:50 <jasta> muthu: I am distinctly American, and would not be ashamed to say I identify with that culture as well.
Jun 02 22:07:05 <muthu> i understand
Jun 02 22:07:07 <Dougie187> personally i think American is more of an ideal.
Jun 02 22:07:18 <Dougie187> its the idea that all these cultures can come together.
Jun 02 22:07:28 <jasta> It has it's own very discernable culture as well, Dougie.
Jun 02 22:07:52 <Dougie187> i guess.
Jun 02 22:07:57 <Dougie187> i guess like humour.
Jun 02 22:07:57 <jasta> That's the point of the Latin inscribed on our pennies :)
Jun 02 22:08:14 <Dougie187> i always hear american humour is a lot different then other kinds of humour
Jun 02 22:08:18 <jasta> E Pluribus Unum means "Out of many, One"
Jun 02 22:08:24 <jasta> ;)
Jun 02 22:08:30 <Dougie187> similar to how biritish humour is crazy as hell
Jun 02 22:08:32 <jasta> American humor is much better than the rest of the world :)
Jun 02 22:08:37 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 22:08:58 <jasta> I am fine to say that objectively and not just as an American.  There are plenty of things about American culture I find inferior to other parts of the world
Jun 02 22:09:01 <jasta> But not humor :)
Jun 02 22:09:07 <davanum> don't get me started about spellings :)
Jun 02 22:09:25 <Dougie187> do you mean grammer in general?
Jun 02 22:09:25 <jasta> For example, Europe clearly dominates the music scene, in particular Britain.
Jun 02 22:09:46 <Dougie187> jasta do you mean modern music?
Jun 02 22:09:52 <Dougie187> or historically?
Jun 02 22:10:15 <muthu> america has something common with india
Jun 02 22:10:26 <muthu> which is how  many people with distinct culture come together
Jun 02 22:10:41 <Dougie187> speaking of india.
Jun 02 22:10:50 <Dougie187> i just watched Indiana Jones and the temple of doom last night
Jun 02 22:10:57 <muthu> haha
Jun 02 22:11:05 <davanum> yeah right! accurate depication :)
Jun 02 22:11:14 <muthu> that's not india
Jun 02 22:11:17 <davanum> monkey brains :)
Jun 02 22:11:22 <Dougie187> that Maharasa (not sure if i spelled that correctly, so sue me davanum) is a dick
Jun 02 22:11:29 <muthu> lol
Jun 02 22:11:36 <davanum> muthu: kidding :)
Jun 02 22:11:46 <muthu> i know
Jun 02 22:11:47 <davanum> Dougie187: i am from india
Jun 02 22:11:48 <Dougie187> chilled monkey brains.
Jun 02 22:11:49 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 22:11:52 <Dougie187> cool
Jun 02 22:11:59 <jasta> muthu: are you serious?  i would have thought India to be generally much more isolated culturally than America.
Jun 02 22:12:02 <Dougie187> well i am sayign that because you said you didnt like spelling
Jun 02 22:12:18 <davanum> Dougie187: i know 6 languages, i bet muthu does too
Jun 02 22:12:21 <jasta> Can you really say that's not true?  Look around you while you're in SF.
Jun 02 22:12:29 <davanum> it's so diverse
Jun 02 22:12:35 <muthu> india is a land of many cultures
Jun 02 22:12:36 <davanum> languages, religion
Jun 02 22:12:36 <Dougie187> I know 1.1 languages
Jun 02 22:12:56 <muthu> each state has its own identitiy
Jun 02 22:13:10 <muthu> south, north, east, west
Jun 02 22:13:12 <Dougie187> Does india have states?
Jun 02 22:13:15 <davanum> it's amazing to me how india is still sticking together as one country
Jun 02 22:13:16 <Dougie187> or are you talking about america?
Jun 02 22:13:17 <muthu> and its all bound together by some miracle
Jun 02 22:13:21 <davanum> :)
Jun 02 22:13:21 <jasta> that could be said on some scale about every country with provinces or states in the world.
Jun 02 22:13:49 <davanum> jasta: true
Jun 02 22:13:49 <jasta> I'm not sure I can generally believe that India represents similar cultural diversity as does America.
Jun 02 22:13:50 <muthu> right, in india we don't speak the same language
Jun 02 22:13:54 <jasta> That genuinely seems absurd to me.
Jun 02 22:13:59 <muthu> it differs in every state
Jun 02 22:14:06 <Dougie187> Lol go down to New Mexico.
Jun 02 22:14:09 <vol> The english don't speak welsh
Jun 02 22:14:14 <Dougie187> There are towns there that only speak Spanish
Jun 02 22:14:28 <jasta> Yeah, or LA. :)
Jun 02 22:14:31 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 22:14:36 <muthu> forget about dialects
Jun 02 22:14:40 <Dougie187> there are "Burbs" there that speak spanish
Jun 02 22:14:46 <muthu> we have different languages
Jun 02 22:15:01 <muthu> in tamilnadu, we speak tamil
Jun 02 22:15:16 <muthu> and then there's many dialects across tamilnadu
Jun 02 22:15:27 <jasta> For example, at the university of washington, which is very near my house, caucasians are about 2 years away from becoming a minority.
Jun 02 22:15:43 <muthu> i go to kerala - they speak malayalam, andhra - telegu, karnataka - kannada
Jun 02 22:15:46 <jasta> Like 35% of the people who live there are Asian, many from Japan.
Jun 02 22:15:50 <davanum> scripts are different too
Jun 02 22:16:18 <muthu> yeah
Jun 02 22:16:24 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 22:16:35 <Dougie187> That happens in a lot of places.
Jun 02 22:16:58 <Dougie187> im not trying to argue that america is more diverse then india though
Jun 02 22:17:13 <Dougie187> ive never been to india
Jun 02 22:17:16 <muthu> there's nothing diverse than india
Jun 02 22:17:21 <muthu> its huge
Jun 02 22:17:23 <Dougie187> ...
Jun 02 22:17:29 <Dougie187> i would probably argue that
Jun 02 22:17:32 <muthu> as said, its a miracle
Jun 02 22:17:39 <muthu> its called india, and we all love together
Jun 02 22:17:39 <Dougie187> everywhere is a miracle
Jun 02 22:17:50 <muthu> s/love/live/g
Jun 02 22:17:51 <infobot> muthu meant: its called india, and we all live together
Jun 02 22:17:52 <davanum> Dougie187: i agree
Jun 02 22:18:01 <Dougie187> every country is a miracle
Jun 02 22:18:06 <jasta> muthu: Realize that this is hard for us to appreciate.
Jun 02 22:18:17 <muthu> jasta: why so?
Jun 02 22:18:20 <muthu> its very similar here
Jun 02 22:18:22 <jasta> We, at least, were raised to believe that our culture is one of the most distinctly diverse in the world.
Jun 02 22:18:29 <muthu> you have people from all around the world
Jun 02 22:18:33 <jasta> By a wide margin, in particular.
Jun 02 22:18:38 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 02 22:18:50 <Dougie187> so there are a lot more people then just indian people who live in india?
Jun 02 22:18:54 <muthu> and americans include "indian - americans" too :)
Jun 02 22:19:00 <muthu> so your's should be diverse!
Jun 02 22:19:00 <Dougie187> lets see what wikipedia has to say on the issue
Jun 02 22:19:11 <jasta> muthu: Realize that what we were just talking about was that we have many people in America who culturally identify with other places.
Jun 02 22:19:14 <jasta> such as myself with Ireland
Jun 02 22:19:19 <jasta> Dougie187 with Norway
Jun 02 22:19:26 <muthu> right
Jun 02 22:19:43 <jasta> Do you find that in India?  A large population who lives in India, identifies with Indian culture, but also with another, totally distinct one?
Jun 02 22:20:00 <davanum> jasta: yep
Jun 02 22:20:10 <davanum> i am a kannadiga
Jun 02 22:20:15 <jasta> I suppose that is the best measure of how diverse culturally a region is.  How many people are importing an existing culture in and truly merging it with another.
Jun 02 22:20:17 <davanum> from bagalore
Jun 02 22:20:20 <davanum> from bangalore
Jun 02 22:20:33 <jasta> Yeah?  And? :)
Jun 02 22:20:54 <Dougie187> but bangalore is in india.
Jun 02 22:21:06 <davanum> i dont feel at home in say the north of india
Jun 02 22:21:17 <davanum> dont like the food :)
Jun 02 22:21:19 <jasta> But do you culturally identify with something OUTSIDE of india?
Jun 02 22:21:26 <Dougie187> thats like me saying Im a New Jersian, Illonian, Indiana, Oregonian, and Floridian
Jun 02 22:21:32 <muthu> we identify with other states
Jun 02 22:21:46 <jasta> But don't you appreciate that the scope is way different?
Jun 02 22:21:51 <jasta> We have different states and subregions all over the US too
Jun 02 22:21:53 <Dougie187> i didnt think Indianian was right...
Jun 02 22:21:56 <jasta> but we also identify well outside of the US.
Jun 02 22:22:02 <jasta> to places across the ocean, even.
Jun 02 22:22:06 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 02 22:22:18 <jasta> Does India?  Is that same diversity a large part of your culture?
Jun 02 22:22:20 <jasta> Because in America, it is.
Jun 02 22:22:23 <Dougie187> like if muthu were to live here, like he did for college i believe. He was america but indian too
Jun 02 22:22:36 <muthu> agree
Jun 02 22:22:42 <jasta> There are Mexican, Spanish, Italian, British, German, Russian, Irish, Japanese, Indian, ...Who all say they are these things.
Jun 02 22:22:58 <davanum> yep, me as well...american/indian/kannadiga
Jun 02 22:22:59 <jasta> And who say they are American too.
Jun 02 22:23:17 <jasta> But you just said Kannadiga is in India.  That doesn't really count.
Jun 02 22:23:23 <davanum> ok
Jun 02 22:23:35 <muthu> "indian"
Jun 02 22:23:36 <muthu> is like
Jun 02 22:23:39 <muthu> "american:
Jun 02 22:23:44 <jasta> I don't say I'm diverse because I was born in Washington but have lived in Oregon.  That would make no sense in the American context since we see diversity on an entirely differents cope.
Jun 02 22:24:05 <muthu> because you just can't say "indian"
Jun 02 22:24:13 <jasta> Judging from your argument, I am having a hard time believing that you appreciate the scope that I am talking about.
Jun 02 22:24:14 <muthu> because they'll ask, then where from?
Jun 02 22:24:22 <jasta> muthu: Well they will ask that of the US too silly.
Jun 02 22:24:30 <davanum> yep true
Jun 02 22:24:32 <muthu> right
Jun 02 22:24:34 <jasta> If I say "The US", anyone familiar with it would say "Well that's a pretty big country."
Jun 02 22:24:44 <muthu> you say "american:"
Jun 02 22:24:46 <jasta> That is not the scope of cultural diversity that Dougie187 and I are referring to.
Jun 02 22:24:54 <jasta> Not even near it.
Jun 02 22:25:12 <Dougie187> I mean if you go around in the country here, you get asked where are you from.
Jun 02 22:25:14 <jasta> So, I have to assume you do not truly understand what America's sense of the word really means.
Jun 02 22:25:19 <Dougie187> and thats referring to where in the US did you come from.
Jun 02 22:25:20 <muthu> "american" and "indian"
Jun 02 22:25:21 <davanum> one thing is we can identify those rom the north from folks who are from the south. not sure if that matters
Jun 02 22:25:28 <Dougie187> or if you are from outside of the country, what country did you come from.
Jun 02 22:25:41 <Dougie187> but that isnt diverse if you go to one state and find people from all the other states.
Jun 02 22:25:46 <jasta> Dougie187: I think they just simply don't get it :)
Jun 02 22:25:51 <Dougie187> yeah.
Jun 02 22:25:55 <muthu> jasta: we get it
Jun 02 22:26:00 <muthu> i'm saying its almost the same
Jun 02 22:26:01 <jasta> Is Japan diverse too? :)
Jun 02 22:26:05 <Dougie187> i think they are thinking of diversity in a different sense
Jun 02 22:26:16 <jasta> Dougie187: Yes, much different.
Jun 02 22:26:33 <davanum> i guess :)
Jun 02 22:26:33 <jasta> muthu: Let's bring this to a simpler discovery process:
Jun 02 22:27:06 <jasta> How many people in India, who live there and say "I'm Mexican" or Italian, or German, or Russian, or American, or...?
Jun 02 22:27:19 <jasta> Do you have a little italy, a china town, etc in nearly every Indian city?
Jun 02 22:27:33 <jasta> Do you have those things that refer to cultures entirely outside of India.  Nowhere near it, even.
Jun 02 22:27:42 <jasta> Do they hit you everywhere you go in all of India?
Jun 02 22:27:42 <Dougie187> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism
Jun 02 22:27:53 <jasta> Because that is what WE mean.  We think it is not what you mean :)
Jun 02 22:27:58 <tomgibara> jasta: I've just noticed this conversation, I think you and muthu are definitely talking about different types of diversity
Jun 02 22:28:02 <davanum> tibetian nepalese..yes
Jun 02 22:28:12 <jasta> tomgibara: Right, despite our repeated attempts to clarify.
Jun 02 22:28:40 <muthu> india is the most diverse country in the world
Jun 02 22:28:44 <tomgibara> India has a remarkable level of diversity 'within' it's indidgenous(sp) culture
Jun 02 22:28:44 <Dougie187> no
Jun 02 22:28:50 <Dougie187> it says here Second most muthu
Jun 02 22:28:57 <jasta> davanum: America is made up of hundreds of very strong cultural ties to outside of our national boundary.  And it is not a subtle concept here.
Jun 02 22:28:58 <muthu> in terms of land, people, culture, language etc.,
Jun 02 22:29:04 <Dougie187> India is the second most culturally, linguistically and genetically diverse geographical entity after the African continent.
Jun 02 22:29:09 <tomgibara> America is extraordinarily diverse due to the importation of varying cultures
Jun 02 22:29:43 <jasta> I can appreciate that there are two different scopes here, which is what I said.
Jun 02 22:29:49 <muthu> agree, america is more diverse in terms of people
Jun 02 22:29:56 <jasta> But that the American sense of cultural diversity is not common.  It is not found in many other places in the world.
Jun 02 22:30:01 <jasta> And that is exactly what I said to start all this :)
Jun 02 22:30:05 <tomgibara> London?
Jun 02 22:30:27 <muthu> heard london is diverse too
Jun 02 22:30:47 <jasta> tomgibara: I said many, not none.  Europe is of course very diverse in general.  Though it still falls short by contrast.
Jun 02 22:31:16 <muthu> india is the only country where people look very similar, but they are culturally different in a lot of ways
Jun 02 22:31:21 <jasta> Of course I realize I'm contrasting a country with a continent, but the United State is quite huge, and most of those regions in Europe which are so diverse represnt a small land mass :)
Jun 02 22:32:03 <tomgibara> jasta: I wasn't necessarily disagreeing
Jun 02 22:32:10 <davanum> i see the distinctions :)
Jun 02 22:32:16 <jasta> In fact, the US is bigger than India ;)
Jun 02 22:32:27 <tomgibara> by land only :)
Jun 02 22:32:33 <muthu> 3 times bigger by land
Jun 02 22:32:37 <jasta> If my memory serves me right, by quite a wide margin :)
Jun 02 22:32:41 <Dougie187> Thank you alaska
Jun 02 22:32:42 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 22:32:45 <muthu> lol
Jun 02 22:32:58 <jasta> Well the spread of the population is what fuels differences more than the population density :)
Jun 02 22:33:20 <jasta> Dougie187: Even without Alaska.  I think the US is quite a lot bigger, though I don't have any hard numbers.
Jun 02 22:33:28 <jasta> Or have looked at a map recently.  Does anyone know if I'm wrong? :)
Jun 02 22:33:36 <Dougie187> true. im just asying that because Alaska is the biggest state.
Jun 02 22:33:54 <Dougie187> Us: Total      9,826,630 kmē [1](3rd/4th3)
Jun 02 22:33:54 <Dougie187> 3,794,066 sq mi
Jun 02 22:34:03 <Dougie187> india
Jun 02 22:34:03 <Dougie187>  -       Total      3,287,590‡ kmē (7th)
Jun 02 22:34:03 <Dougie187> 1,269,346 sq mi
Jun 02 22:34:10 <jasta> Yes, so, wide margin then :)
Jun 02 22:34:35 <Dougie187> And alaska is 663,267 sq mi
Jun 02 22:34:46 <muthu> yeah 3 times bigger
Jun 02 22:34:53 <Dougie187> Alaska is half of India alone
Jun 02 22:35:00 <muthu> india is a mystery even to indians!
Jun 02 22:35:28 <muthu> if i travel  anywhere outside my state, i'm a foreigner
Jun 02 22:35:32 <muthu> just like here
Jun 02 22:35:46 <jasta> muthu: You need this 1 month vacation in the states apparently.  To educate you :)
Jun 02 22:35:55 <muthu> oh yes
Jun 02 22:36:01 <muthu> i'm all for learning :)
Jun 02 22:36:08 <jasta> I'll give you a project.  Go out and meet some folks.  Ask them where they're from originally, what cultural identity they have.
Jun 02 22:36:11 <jasta> You tally it up :0
Jun 02 22:36:19 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 22:36:29 <muthu> i've met a lot of irish americans ;)
Jun 02 22:36:42 <muthu> ok, let me do that
Jun 02 22:36:45 <muthu> i'll ask everyone
Jun 02 22:36:54 <jasta> but don't be weird about it.
Jun 02 22:36:59 <muthu> haha
Jun 02 22:37:01 <jasta> some Mexican gangster might beat you up
Jun 02 22:37:02 <jasta> ;)
Jun 02 22:37:05 <muthu> lol
Jun 02 22:37:23 <Dougie187> and dont ask for nude pictures.
Jun 02 22:37:23 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 22:37:33 <Dougie187> some Mexican Gangster will shoot you.
Jun 02 22:37:33 <muthu> haha
Jun 02 22:37:38 <muthu> i know
Jun 02 22:37:44 <muthu> this country is scary with guns
Jun 02 22:37:50 <tomgibara> I think it's hard for those of us who are from populations which are largely culturally homogenous to understand what muthu is saying about being a foreigner in your own land.
Jun 02 22:38:04 <muthu> tomgibara: right
Jun 02 22:38:13 <tomgibara> Imagine travelling just a short way out of your state and not speaking the same language?
Jun 02 22:38:19 <muthu> correct
Jun 02 22:38:30 <muthu> and all different culture
Jun 02 22:38:33 <jasta> tomgibara: Right, but most of Europe can easily appreciate that contrast.
Jun 02 22:39:02 <muthu> its like the european union i guess
Jun 02 22:39:15 <jasta> Yeah, and Europe frankly probably has it worse than you guys ;)
Jun 02 22:39:23 <jasta> There are what, 37 languages in the EU in an area smaller than the US?
Jun 02 22:39:30 <jasta> As large as India, I bet ;)
Jun 02 22:39:34 <tomgibara> a little, but the nation states of the EU are still nations.
Jun 02 22:39:56 <jasta> Sure, you need a passport ;)
Jun 02 22:40:31 <davanum> yep. as i mentioned. not sure whats holding india together :)
Jun 02 22:40:51 <tomgibara> I certainly consider myself "a world citizen", probably due to my mixed heritage.
Jun 02 22:41:04 <muthu> tomgibara: what's that?
Jun 02 22:42:42 <tomgibara> Paternal GPs: Italian, Greek, colonials in Egypt. Maternal GPs: Welsh, English. Father: Lebanese, Mother born in England. Parents met in France, Married in America. Me born Paris, Live in England
Jun 02 22:43:00 <muthu> wow!
Jun 02 22:43:10 <davanum> wow!
Jun 02 22:43:39 <muthu> you are definitely a world citizen
Jun 02 22:44:02 <tomgibara> In more multicultural (american sense) counties, mixes like that are more common I guess.
Jun 02 22:44:09 <tomgibara> *countries
Jun 02 22:44:18 <muthu> yeah think so
Jun 02 22:47:01 <tomgibara> davanum: what's holding india together? A shared belief in nationhood.
Jun 02 22:47:15 <tomgibara> I think that's mostly what it takes
Jun 02 22:50:16 <muthu> and india is not economically developed to consider other options
Jun 02 22:51:48 <tomgibara> never having lived in a huge country like the US or India, I marvel that they are governable
Jun 02 22:52:15 <muthu> very difficult
Jun 02 22:52:31 <muthu> especially if its corrupt
Jun 02 22:53:44 <tomgibara> is the level of corruption in India diminishing in those states that are seeing economic growth?
Jun 02 22:54:15 <muthu> i think so, probably yes
Jun 02 22:54:59 <muthu> the rate of development is painfully slow
Jun 02 22:55:16 <muthu> and india to develop it'll take atleast a century i guess
Jun 02 22:58:07 <Dougie187> looks like morrildl snuck out under the radar
Jun 02 22:58:21 <tomgibara> muthu: Incidentally, I heard on the World Service that the Chennai Super Kings narrowly lost. Your team?
Jun 02 22:59:20 <muthu> oh yes
Jun 02 22:59:25 <muthu> they lost last ball, right?
Jun 02 22:59:31 <muthu> sucks!
Jun 02 22:59:45 <muthu> IPL is huge in india
Jun 02 23:00:02 <tomgibara> The first season they said - did I understand that correctly?
Jun 02 23:00:08 <muthu> yes, the first
Jun 02 23:00:49 <tomgibara> Cricket - there's a game that divides the nations of the world...
Jun 02 23:01:14 <muthu> haha
Jun 02 23:01:48 <Dougie187> i like soccer personally
Jun 02 23:02:02 * jasta doesn't like watching team sports, generally
Jun 02 23:02:07 <jasta> i like freestyle athletics
Jun 02 23:02:16 <Dougie187> im just impressed by the endurance it takes to play pro soccer
Jun 02 23:02:17 <jasta> like snowboarding and skateboarding
Jun 02 23:02:42 <muthu> http://wiki.workatjelly.com/Jelly+San+Francisco+June+6th
Jun 02 23:02:42 <tomgibara> Absolutely, the players are so extremely fit
Jun 02 23:02:47 <muthu> that looks cool
Jun 02 23:02:50 <Dougie187> in soccer?
Jun 02 23:02:53 <tomgibara> yes
Jun 02 23:02:57 <Dougie187> its crazy.
Jun 02 23:03:00 <Dougie187> the field is so huge.
Jun 02 23:03:06 <Dougie187> and they have to run up and down it so many times
Jun 02 23:03:25 <tomgibara> I think cricket is on the other end of the spectrum
Jun 02 23:03:28 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 02 23:03:37 <Dougie187> the least physically draining activity?
Jun 02 23:03:40 <tomgibara> Is it the only sport that includes scheduled tea breaks?
Jun 02 23:04:02 <Dougie187> hah
Jun 02 23:04:05 <Dougie187> i dont know but probably
Jun 02 23:04:08 <Dougie187> does Rugby?
Jun 02 23:04:14 <tomgibara> Well, of course professional players of any sport benefit from being fit.
Jun 02 23:04:26 <muthu> Dougie187: yeah tea breaks, lunch etc.,
Jun 02 23:04:34 <muthu> and you play 5 days
Jun 02 23:05:05 <tomgibara> No, rugby is... well a tough, tough sport
Jun 02 23:05:27 <Dougie187> no i mean does it have tea breaks
Jun 02 23:05:29 <Dougie187> i know its tough
Jun 02 23:05:38 <Dougie187> its like football with death thrown in
Jun 02 23:05:38 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 23:05:53 <tomgibara> :-)
Jun 02 23:06:26 <tomgibara> No tea breaks in Rugby.
Jun 02 23:06:38 <Dougie187> isnt that an english sport too though?
Jun 02 23:07:15 <tomgibara> yes, came from Rugby School in England
Jun 02 23:07:28 <tomgibara> Warwickshire I think
Jun 02 23:07:37 <Dougie187> lol its like that Quiddick!
Jun 02 23:07:41 <Dougie187> dich
Jun 02 23:07:43 <Dougie187> not dick.
Jun 02 23:07:51 <Dougie187> i dont know if thats how you spell it
Jun 02 23:07:56 <Dougie187> or even if you know what im saying
Jun 02 23:08:57 <tomgibara> Hogwarts game, except the bludgers are bloody huge men who just slam you into the ground.
Jun 02 23:09:15 <Dougie187> exactly
Jun 02 23:09:23 <Dougie187> thus the death
Jun 02 23:11:30 <Dougie187> hey tomgibara did you make the top 50?
Jun 02 23:11:57 <tomgibara> haha, no
Jun 02 23:12:04 <Dougie187> what was your app?
Jun 02 23:12:29 <tomgibara> Moseycode
Jun 02 23:12:38 <Dougie187> i have heard of that before
Jun 02 23:12:45 <tomgibara> there's a video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D364ReDaZ3o
Jun 02 23:12:55 <Dougie187> are you still working on it?
Jun 02 23:13:19 <tomgibara> Yes, a great deal
Jun 02 23:13:34 <Dougie187> so its like image tracking?
Jun 02 23:13:58 <tomgibara> Its a process called augmented reality, which uses image recognition/tracking yes
Jun 02 23:14:10 <Dougie187> thats cool
Jun 02 23:14:22 <tomgibara> I'm not actually that interested in AR in a desktop setting
Jun 02 23:14:32 <Dougie187> what are you going to do with it?
Jun 02 23:14:37 <tomgibara> but I think it's quite exciting in a mobile context
Jun 02 23:15:40 <tomgibara> Well, moseycode is many things. It's a: 2D barcode symbology, it's a set of publishing webservices and its a set of unifying semantics for barcode content
Jun 02 23:15:49 <tomgibara> (and its an AR system too)
Jun 02 23:16:03 <Dougie187> but i mean. what is the practical use that you see in it?
Jun 02 23:16:15 <Dougie187> like what would you like to see people do with it
Jun 02 23:16:19 <tomgibara> A few companies are looking to build systems that layer on top of various elements in that stack
Jun 02 23:16:25 <tomgibara> Some are very advanced
Jun 02 23:16:39 <Dougie187> thats cool.
Jun 02 23:16:43 <Dougie187> Its pretty neat.
Jun 02 23:16:53 <tomgibara> Well, advertising and marketing are obvious applications
Jun 02 23:16:57 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 02 23:16:59 <duey> obvious?
Jun 02 23:17:11 <duey> i dont see advertising as viable for that sort of thing
Jun 02 23:17:34 <duey> unless people run around looking at barcodes on walls with there phones..?
Jun 02 23:17:35 <tomgibara> Several people have come to me with great ideas that I don't want to disclose out of respect for their possible business plans
Jun 02 23:17:54 <tomgibara> duey: it's quite popular in Japan
Jun 02 23:18:15 <Dougie187> i thought the business card thing was cool
Jun 02 23:18:19 <duey> hmm but Japan is a totally different market compared to the west
Jun 02 23:18:26 <duey> yeah i like thebusiness card thing
Jun 02 23:18:30 <Dougie187> maybe hes marketing it to japan though.
Jun 02 23:18:33 <tomgibara> The ability to get, say, a 3D interactive model of a product 'pop-out' of an advert could be quite compelling
Jun 02 23:19:02 <tomgibara> I think there could be scope for interactive games too.
Jun 02 23:19:10 <duey> tomgibara, hmm that might be ok, I guess if you had fliers or something
Jun 02 23:19:12 <Dougie187> that was my first guess.
Jun 02 23:19:20 <Dougie187> i was thinking something like Eye of Judgement
Jun 02 23:19:33 <Dougie187> or like a 3d Pokemon type game
Jun 02 23:20:22 <Dougie187> but it would drain the battery like crazy
Jun 02 23:20:41 <duey> ya
Jun 02 23:20:53 <Dougie187> hows your app coming duey?
Jun 02 23:20:55 <Dougie187> or did you stop it?
Jun 02 23:20:58 <duey> stopped
Jun 02 23:21:01 <duey> to busy
Jun 02 23:21:04 <tomgibara> After I had started work on Moseycode I came across this:
Jun 02 23:21:05 <tomgibara> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3313097407471526965&q=augmented+reality+game&ei=EIBESIDqG4PeigLN5aXtCQ
Jun 02 23:21:08 <Dougie187> are you gonna pick it back up for ADC2?
Jun 02 23:21:18 <duey> depends when adc2 is
Jun 02 23:21:21 <duey> if its this year, then no
Jun 02 23:22:02 <Dougie187> thats too bad
Jun 02 23:22:11 <Dougie187> i thought you app would have a lot of uses.
Jun 02 23:22:13 <duey> yep
Jun 02 23:22:14 <tomgibara> I'm thinking that combined with network play, there could be some really interesting opportunities
Jun 02 23:22:24 <duey> tomgibara, whats the performance like?
Jun 02 23:22:36 <tomgibara> duey: hmmm
Jun 02 23:23:29 <duey> do you use the circles to locate the bounding box?
Jun 02 23:23:30 <Dougie187> here tomgibara
Jun 02 23:23:30 <Dougie187> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3313097407471526965&q=augmented+reality+game&ei=EIBESIDqG4PeigLN5aXtCQ
Jun 02 23:23:43 <tomgibara> I developed Moseycode to be fast - and it is very fast, in the sense that it lends itself to extremely fast image detection (which is the bottleneck)
Jun 02 23:23:56 <duey> (and consequently do you look at every pixel?)
Jun 02 23:24:19 <tomgibara> A company has implemented an iphone version and get 20fps I think
Jun 02 23:25:00 <Dougie187> how about power consumption
Jun 02 23:25:08 <Dougie187> is the image detection done on the phone?
Jun 02 23:25:19 <tomgibara> Yes you need to look at each pixel. But you can strongly downsample the image
Jun 02 23:25:26 <duey> hmmm
Jun 02 23:25:46 <duey> have you considered changing to something other than circles and not looking at every pixel?
Jun 02 23:26:51 <tomgibara> Power consumption will be high, I'm sure. But I think the system will either be used like a game, or very intermittently and briefly (eg, to scan an advert)
Jun 02 23:27:11 <Dougie187> but can you scan it and then get it without scanning it?
Jun 02 23:27:16 <Dougie187> i dont know if that makes sense.
Jun 02 23:27:26 <Dougie187> but can you scan it once, and then get the whole advert until you close it?
Jun 02 23:28:06 <muthu> why can't we barcode for locations?
Jun 02 23:28:15 <tomgibara> Dougie187: yes, it maintains a barcode (portal) history that can be reviewed and previous portals can be revisited
Jun 02 23:28:24 <Dougie187> cool
Jun 02 23:28:31 <Dougie187> where are the portal data stored?
Jun 02 23:28:32 <tomgibara> they can be manipulated by stroking the screen instead of moving around the barcode
Jun 02 23:28:53 <tomgibara> There is a central barcode repository held on a server
Jun 02 23:29:15 <Dougie187> so when ever you see a new barcode you have to ping the repo and download the new portal?
Jun 02 23:29:21 <tomgibara> The contents of barcoded portals are defined in "chamber documents" stored on that server
Jun 02 23:29:32 <tomgibara> yes
Jun 02 23:30:03 <Dougie187> although its not quite like AR, but you could do that portion similarly to Duey to help with power consumption for the advery portion.
Jun 02 23:30:19 <Dougie187> you could just take an image, and send it to the server. then have the server return the correct portal
Jun 02 23:30:46 <duey> hnm probably not nessesary
Jun 02 23:30:58 <tomgibara> Yes not necessary
Jun 02 23:31:01 <duey> I imagine some optimsiation just so you dont need to look at every pixel would be good
Jun 02 23:31:26 <tomgibara> If you aren't looking at each pixel then that's generally equivalent to downsampling it
Jun 02 23:31:43 <duey> yes but downsampling itself looks at every pixel
Jun 02 23:32:12 <tomgibara> But using the image processing pipeline of the phone, that's very very fast
Jun 02 23:32:18 <duey> yeah true
Jun 02 23:32:35 <duey> but not all of the phones will have a gpu
Jun 02 23:32:52 <Dougie187> heh, some might not even have a screen!
Jun 02 23:34:10 <tomgibara> If you're interested, it does a scaling, then an adaptive thresholding pass, binarizes the image into a boolean array, uses marching-squares to do blob detection, uses heuristics to identify ellipses, combines ellipses into rings, combines rings into quadrilaterals, scans each quadrilateral for a barcode pattern, computes its position in 3D space, then renders
Jun 02 23:34:56 <Dougie187> thats pretty intense
Jun 02 23:35:03 <tomgibara> The main image detection function, does no memory allocation, no function calls, no FP arithmetic and no integer divides.
Jun 02 23:36:02 <tomgibara> Image detection is the slowest part, very little comes close for overall runtime.
Jun 02 23:37:20 <tomgibara> The trick, as with optimizing rendering, is to focus on hitting the image pixels the least number of times you can; since they are always the most numerous elements.
Jun 02 23:38:55 <tomgibara> Anyway, the lack of a JIT/AOT compiler prior to launch, probably makes this slightly academic ATM
Jun 02 23:39:37 <duey> there wont be a JIT compiler
Jun 02 23:39:42 <Dougie187> you should make an android ray tracer
Jun 02 23:39:48 <duey> lol
Jun 02 23:39:54 <duey> i have one in javascript :)
Jun 02 23:39:56 <romainguy> Dougie187: I did one :)
Jun 02 23:40:01 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 23:40:02 <tomgibara> Too easy :-P
Jun 02 23:40:13 <Dougie187> all the graphic nerds step forward on that one.
Jun 02 23:40:15 <jasta> wow, i just saw something so ridiculous
Jun 02 23:40:26 <Dougie187> whats that jasta?
Jun 02 23:40:29 <jasta> a woman was breastfeeding her baby as she walked down a crowded city street in Seattle
Jun 02 23:40:34 <tomgibara> romainguy: does it render anything more than a sphere and a checkered plane?
Jun 02 23:40:36 <duey> lol
Jun 02 23:40:41 <jasta> that really floored me
Jun 02 23:40:41 <romainguy> tomgibara: cubes :))
Jun 02 23:40:54 <Dougie187> arbitrarily rotated cubes?
Jun 02 23:42:24 <romainguy> but the raytracer I wrote was heavily object oriented and thus allocates tons and tons of objects
Jun 02 23:42:33 <duey> <3
Jun 02 23:43:19 <tomgibara> I'm thinking of implementing Moseycode in actionscript, I've never done any significant Flash development before, but I think it's viable
Jun 02 23:43:32 <romainguy> probably
Jun 02 23:43:37 <romainguy> Flash's VM is good
Jun 02 23:43:43 <romainguy> it's rendering pipeline is pure software though
Jun 02 23:43:51 <romainguy> -it's+its
Jun 02 23:43:57 <tomgibara> Yes, I was taking a look, those were my conclusions
Jun 02 23:45:22 <tomgibara> Incidentally, on the Android emulator: creating an ArrayList of Integer and adding 10,000 boxed ints to it is slower than creating an array in JS and adding 10,000 numbers to it within the Webkit browser
Jun 02 23:45:39 <duey> ....
Jun 02 23:46:30 <tomgibara> Disclaimer: that's a _very_ rough benchmark I'm stating there
Jun 02 23:49:36 <romainguy> and it depends on so many things :)
Jun 02 23:51:10 <tomgibara> Naturally, the statement's not worthy of being called a fact, but I thought I'd throw it out there, since I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who's tried to gauge the relative performance of Webkit's ECMAScript implementation and the Dalvik VM
Jun 02 23:53:10 <duey> well im currently using js for distributed ray tracing and its working well :)
Jun 02 23:55:12 <Dougie187> i tried to write a ray tracer in c and it didnt work so well
Jun 02 23:55:12 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 02 23:55:16 <tomgibara> duey: surely the memory contraints prevent it from being, I don't know how to phrase this politely... competitive?
Jun 02 23:55:37 <duey> ray tracing doesn't require much memory?
Jun 02 23:55:54 <duey> when you are only computing a few pixels at a time its nothing
Jun 02 23:56:19 <duey> obviously you would need a lot of computers for it to become comeptitive, but its just academic atm
Jun 02 23:57:24 <Dougie187> i took a scientific visualization class, and it ended up being a computer graphics class.
Jun 02 23:57:28 <tomgibara> Most of the scenes (those that can't be mathematically modelled simplistically) that benefit from distribution are sufficiently complex that their geometry and textures are huge
Jun 02 23:57:32 <Dougie187> we did ray tracing and polygon clipping
Jun 02 23:57:57 <duey> tomgibara, yes but ray tracing is just an example implementation
Jun 02 23:58:12 <tomgibara> oh I see
Jun 02 23:58:20 <duey> just so i can talk about something visual in a presentation
Jun 02 23:58:32 <duey> people can see the result rather than some number
Jun 02 23:58:37 <jasta> ever since I/O, my right arm has hurt pretty bad
Jun 02 23:58:48 <duey> maybe they injected it with something while you were not looking
Jun 02 23:58:52 <jasta> and i can't lift much weight without it hurting more
Jun 02 23:59:09 <jasta> maybe i got drunk and gave dan a right hook :)
Jun 02 23:59:13 <Dougie187> ever since disney my right knee has hurt pretty bad jasta
Jun 02 23:59:14 <duey> lol
Jun 02 23:59:19 <Dougie187> i cant walk on it right.
Jun 02 23:59:33 <jasta> i might go to the doctor tomorrow if it doesnt feel better
Jun 02 23:59:36 <jasta> its a very strange feeling
Jun 02 23:59:56 <Dougie187> i also think i got a sinus infection from my wife.
Jun 03 00:00:01 <Dougie187> so im going to go to the doctor tomorrow
Jun 03 00:00:24 <muthu> you can get sinus infection?
Jun 03 00:00:41 <Dougie187> do you mean in general? or from someone else?
Jun 03 00:00:50 <muthu> from someone else?
Jun 03 00:01:18 <Dougie187> i would assume so, being that its just a bacterial infection
Jun 03 00:01:21 <duey> general comment: i do not like the new google favicon
Jun 03 00:01:41 <jasta> me neither
Jun 03 00:01:45 <jasta> it looks too artsy
Jun 03 00:01:48 <Dougie187> the lower case g?
Jun 03 00:02:00 <duey> yeah i dont assosciate google with a lowercase g
Jun 03 00:02:14 <Dougie187> i know. i saw it a couple days ago and was like WTF is that garbage?
Jun 03 00:02:24 <duey> its like not even blue
Jun 03 00:02:24 <jasta> i think, just for a week, it should be the android logo
Jun 03 00:02:26 <duey> its like purple
Jun 03 00:03:02 <Dougie187> i wonder why they chose that one.
Jun 03 00:03:07 <Dougie187> instead of the capital g
Jun 03 00:03:20 <duey> yeah its a bit strange
Jun 03 00:03:25 <duey> sure they needed to update it
Jun 03 00:03:29 <duey> but to that?
Jun 03 00:03:46 <tomgibara> Dougie187: capriciousness
Jun 03 00:03:49 <tomgibara> ?
Jun 03 00:04:10 * jasta can not figure out how servers go from $700 to $7000 with the addition of dual power supplies, hot-swappable bays, and twice the RAM.
Jun 03 00:04:17 <jasta> does that make sense to anyone else?
Jun 03 00:04:26 <duey> no
Jun 03 00:04:32 <duey> its usually the RAm
Jun 03 00:04:38 <Dougie187> tomgibara?
Jun 03 00:04:47 <jasta> ive found that basically any server with a hot swappable bay is instantly $1000 more expensive
Jun 03 00:04:52 <jasta> despite the bays being less than $200.
Jun 03 00:04:54 <Dougie187> are you refering to google?
Jun 03 00:05:01 <duey> $$profit$$
Jun 03 00:05:08 <jasta> and the dual power supplies is another $2K, despite them being just basically $150 a piece.
Jun 03 00:05:17 <duey> buy a dell?
Jun 03 00:05:20 <jasta> and the RAM?  really? that's like $150.
Jun 03 00:05:22 <jasta> duey: this is a Dell.
Jun 03 00:05:25 <duey> oh lol
Jun 03 00:05:28 <duey> go ibm then!
Jun 03 00:05:34 <jasta> Dell PowerEdge 2900, we just had shipped to us.  We didn't buy it, but I'm wondering why anyone would.
Jun 03 00:05:53 <jasta> We bought a Dell T105 for our Idaho office, and it was $700.  A good little server too.
Jun 03 00:06:09 <jasta> Opteron 2GHz, 2GB RAM, 2 250GB SATA drives, and dual gigabit ethernet.
Jun 03 00:06:31 <jasta> it just floors me how it can grow from $700 to $7000 with not even a doubling of actual power.
Jun 03 00:06:55 <duey> i guess it needs a new case for the dual power supplies?
Jun 03 00:06:57 <tomgibara> Dougie187: you asked why Google chose the new favicon, I was suggesting they have a slightly mercurial nature :)
Jun 03 00:07:04 <Dougie187> oh ok
Jun 03 00:07:05 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 03 00:07:12 <duey> (probably a rarely sold case)
Jun 03 00:07:12 <Dougie187> i thought you were referring to something that i did
Jun 03 00:07:25 <jasta> duey: i think it's just profit margin.
Jun 03 00:07:39 <jasta> like, a $7000 server really is worth about $2000.
Jun 03 00:08:30 <tomgibara> Dougie187: I don't know why, but that misunderstanding suddenly reminded my of a story about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Not at all related, but amusing.
Jun 03 00:08:44 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 03 00:09:56 <tomgibara> As a prank, he wrote a letter to five close friends saying nothing but "The conspiracy has been discovered, we must flee" (or something like that).
Jun 03 00:10:01 <tomgibara> One of them disappeared and was never seen again.
Jun 03 00:10:08 <muthu> lol
Jun 03 00:10:21 <muthu> now Dougie187 will disappear
Jun 03 00:10:24 <muthu> haha
Jun 03 00:10:32 <tomgibara> I have no idea why that story just came into my head.
Jun 03 00:11:04 <tomgibara> Perhaps, you could pull a similar stunt globally with the power of spam email.
Jun 03 00:11:04 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 03 00:11:05 <Dougie187> that is crazy
Jun 03 00:13:57 <Dougie187> have you guys ever seen the show "A Haunting"?
Jun 03 00:14:09 <tomgibara> Not me
Jun 03 00:14:18 <Dougie187> i think its on Discovery
Jun 03 00:14:25 <Dougie187> i watched it earlier.
Jun 03 00:14:27 <Dougie187> its pretty crazy
Jun 03 00:15:27 <Dougie187> it is a creepy ass show.
Jun 03 00:16:00 <tomgibara> I can't bring myself to watch television programmes anymore. I get nothing from them.
Jun 03 00:16:09 <Dougie187> i dont usually
Jun 03 00:16:12 <Dougie187> only CSI
Jun 03 00:16:14 <Dougie187> and The Office
Jun 03 00:17:01 <tomgibara> Just out of curiosity, is that the US remake of The Office or the UK version?
Jun 03 00:17:12 <Dougie187> The Remake
Jun 03 00:17:21 <Dougie187> the UK one is too quick for me. and i dont get the jokes 90% of the time
Jun 03 00:18:00 <tomgibara> too quick? do you mean verbally, or in terms of humour?
Jun 03 00:18:08 <Dougie187> verbally
Jun 03 00:18:12 <Dougie187> they talk really fast.
Jun 03 00:18:21 <Dougie187> and usually by the time they make a joke its pasted me
Jun 03 00:18:56 <tomgibara> I guess you just need to be familiar with the English dialect
Jun 03 00:19:03 <Dougie187> yes, which i am not
Jun 03 00:19:09 <Dougie187> have you seen the UK one?
Jun 03 00:19:13 <zhobbs> missed it, what movie?
Jun 03 00:19:14 <tomgibara> yes
Jun 03 00:19:23 <Dougie187> and the US one?
Jun 03 00:19:28 <tomgibara> The Office tv programme
Jun 03 00:19:30 <Dougie187> zhobbs we are talking about the office
Jun 03 00:19:42 <zhobbs> ahh, never seen the uk version
Jun 03 00:19:57 <Dougie187> i have the UK one on a dvd from a friend.
Jun 03 00:20:03 <Dougie187> but ive only seen a couple of the episodes.
Jun 03 00:20:20 <duey> jasta, if you can get two servers for less than the price of one (without the additional powersupply etc) why not just get two and have one as failover
Jun 03 00:21:05 <tomgibara> The UK one is quite black humour, I wondered if they had sweetened it a little for a US audience - but I'm sure that's just prejudice that I think they might.
Jun 03 00:21:25 <Dougie187> So you have not seen the US version?
Jun 03 00:21:30 <tomgibara> no
Jun 03 00:21:43 <Dougie187> its worth a watch
Jun 03 00:21:43 <duey> US version isnt funny
Jun 03 00:21:47 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 03 00:21:49 <Dougie187> i enjoy it
Jun 03 00:21:53 <duey> just boring american humour
Jun 03 00:22:02 <Dougie187> Boring American Humour?!
Jun 03 00:22:02 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 03 00:22:09 <Dougie187> I enjoy american humour.
Jun 03 00:22:11 <tomgibara> duey: have you seen the UK one?
Jun 03 00:22:14 <duey> yes
Jun 03 00:22:24 <Dougie187> i take it you enjoy the UK versiou?
Jun 03 00:22:27 <Dougie187> version?
Jun 03 00:22:28 <duey> ya
Jun 03 00:22:31 <tomgibara> duey: are you American?
Jun 03 00:22:33 <duey> no
Jun 03 00:22:39 <Dougie187> are you english?
Jun 03 00:22:51 <duey> ~~~ new zealand
Jun 03 00:23:31 <tomgibara> well, that's commonwealth :-)
Jun 03 00:23:34 <duey> yeah
Jun 03 00:23:46 <Dougie187> tomgibara are you american?
Jun 03 00:24:26 <tomgibara> No, there's a message above where I describe myself, but I'm a UK national
Jun 03 00:24:29 <duey> I find american comedy programs not funny at all
Jun 03 00:24:56 <duey> american funniest home videos is a perfect example of something 100% not funny
Jun 03 00:25:13 <tomgibara> the UK ones aren't funny either
Jun 03 00:25:16 <Dougie187> some of it is fairly funny. but for the most part its not funny
Jun 03 00:25:35 <tomgibara> Maybe the NZ one's are just really good?
Jun 03 00:25:57 <duey> na we don't have NZ ones
Jun 03 00:26:07 <duey> some of american funniest home videos is ok
Jun 03 00:26:08 <duey> but rarely
Jun 03 00:26:17 <Dougie187> i agree
Jun 03 00:26:18 <duey> UK comedy shows ftw
Jun 03 00:26:25 <Dougie187> have you seen the movie The 40 year old virgin?
Jun 03 00:26:30 <tomgibara> no one does anything funny? or they just don't film it and send it in to a television show?
Jun 03 00:26:38 <Dougie187> well its all the same.
Jun 03 00:26:43 <Dougie187> hit someone in the balls
Jun 03 00:26:46 <Dougie187> fall off something
Jun 03 00:26:47 <Dougie187> thats it really
Jun 03 00:26:53 <duey> yeah
Jun 03 00:27:09 <Dougie187> everyonce in a while you get something you dont expect.
Jun 03 00:27:11 <Dougie187> and then its funny
Jun 03 00:27:25 <duey> yep
Jun 03 00:27:37 <Dougie187> duey: have you see The 40 year old virgin?
Jun 03 00:27:39 <duey> yes
Jun 03 00:27:45 <Dougie187> did you enjoy that?
Jun 03 00:27:49 <duey> yeah it was ok
Jun 03 00:28:02 <Dougie187> oh man. i thought that was one of the funniest movies i have ever seen
Jun 03 00:28:10 <Dougie187> i laughed all the way through that when i saw it in the theater.
Jun 03 00:28:16 <Dougie187> have you seen Blades of Glory?
Jun 03 00:28:46 <duey> na
Jun 03 00:28:52 <tomgibara> The US has scrubs, but the UK has Greenwing
Jun 03 00:28:56 <Dougie187> i think that move is really funny too
Jun 03 00:29:04 <duey> I like scrubs
Jun 03 00:29:13 <tomgibara> I saw the first couple of series of scrubs, but it doesn't really tell you much about the human condition
Jun 03 00:29:25 <Dougie187> human condition?
Jun 03 00:29:27 <tomgibara> Greenwing is much darker
Jun 03 00:29:30 <Dougie187> you mean like the illnesses?
Jun 03 00:29:53 <Dougie187> Scrubs isnt a show about the act of being a doctor.
Jun 03 00:29:54 <tomgibara> human condition = the nature of our existence as people
Jun 03 00:30:01 <Dougie187> watch house.
Jun 03 00:30:04 <Dougie187> you might enjoy that more
Jun 03 00:30:09 <duey> lol i dont think scrubs is about that
Jun 03 00:30:19 <Dougie187> me either.
Jun 03 00:30:22 <Dougie187> but i enjoy scrubs.
Jun 03 00:30:35 <Dougie187> my favorite show is CSI though
Jun 03 00:30:36 <tomgibara> Alll drama depends on the human condition
Jun 03 00:30:37 <Dougie187> i love CSI
Jun 03 00:30:41 <Dougie187> Its not a Drama
Jun 03 00:30:45 <Dougie187> Scrubs is a comedy
Jun 03 00:30:48 <tomgibara> The best drama teaches you about it too
Jun 03 00:31:02 <tomgibara> Well, I'm using the word drama more broadly here
Jun 03 00:31:07 <Dougie187> Lol i guess so.
Jun 03 00:31:16 <Dougie187> because Scrubs is not at all a drama
Jun 03 00:31:23 <tomgibara> Almost all comedy requires dramatic situations for humour
Jun 03 00:31:39 <tomgibara> That's why hospitals are such a good place to set one
Jun 03 00:31:45 <Dougie187> sure, but just because there are dramatic situations doesnt make them dramas.
Jun 03 00:31:50 <Dougie187> A Drama is Grey's Anatomy
Jun 03 00:31:52 <Dougie187> or ER
Jun 03 00:32:46 <tomgibara> Drama, in the Greek sense from which we derive our meaning, had three modes(?)
Jun 03 00:32:52 <Dougie187> Here is that show i was talking about tomgibara http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/series.html?paid=1.13056.25048.31742.3
Jun 03 00:33:20 <tomgibara> Comedy was one of them
Jun 03 00:33:32 <tomgibara>  (but not quite in the sense we use it)
Jun 03 00:36:00 <tomgibara> Many people in the UK are really snooty about US television
Jun 03 00:36:35 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 03 00:37:34 <tomgibara> I think the US produces a lot of very good TV. I really enjoyed House for example.
Jun 03 00:38:14 <Dougie187> i thought you might like that one
Jun 03 00:38:16 <Dougie187> its a bit darker
Jun 03 00:38:48 <duey> I prefer UK tv because t he culture in it similar to nz i guess
Jun 03 00:39:03 <tomgibara> I like my humour black
Jun 03 00:39:10 <duey> yep
Jun 03 00:41:25 <tomgibara> Something like the last series of Blackadder comes to mind.
Jun 03 00:47:13 <Dougie187> have you ever seen CSI?
Jun 03 00:48:01 <tomgibara> I have, and I really enjoyed it :-)
Jun 03 00:48:20 <tomgibara> My wife used to laugh because it was literally the only thing I watched on TV
Jun 03 00:48:21 <Dougie187> that is by far my favorite show
Jun 03 00:48:34 <Dougie187> that is literally the only thing i want to watch on tv.
Jun 03 00:48:36 <Dougie187> seriously.
Jun 03 00:48:46 <muthu> is it that good?
Jun 03 00:48:46 <Dougie187> i only watch the office for the most part because my wife likes it
Jun 03 00:48:57 <Dougie187> if i had a choice i would watch CSI over the office
Jun 03 00:48:58 <tomgibara> No that I don't watch that, I don't watch television. We don't even have one now.
Jun 03 00:49:11 <tomgibara> (except to play console games)
Jun 03 00:49:15 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 03 00:49:22 <Dougie187> you should download some episodes.
Jun 03 00:49:55 <tomgibara> I'll buy them on DVD or borrow them.
Jun 03 00:50:06 <Dougie187> they are really good
Jun 03 00:50:13 <Dougie187> i enjoy the serial killer sprees
Jun 03 00:51:05 <tomgibara> I was intrigued by the way they were able to 'franchise' the show into different cities
Jun 03 00:51:12 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 03 00:51:14 <tomgibara> We don't get that in UK TV
Jun 03 00:51:17 <Dougie187> Miami, and NY
Jun 03 00:51:29 <Dougie187> my favorite (the only one i watch) is Las Vegas
Jun 03 01:27:48 <Dougie187> well im out.
Jun 03 01:27:55 <Dougie187> have a good evening everyone
Jun 03 02:07:43 <zhobbs> so weird...I'm calling TextView.setText(String) and it's not working!  It works the first time I call it and then doesn't work again
Jun 03 02:08:16 <vol> repaint?
Jun 03 02:08:27 <zhobbs> doesn't fix it
Jun 03 02:10:56 <zhobbs> seems like a threading problem
Jun 03 02:11:22 <zhobbs> or a bug
Jun 03 02:12:25 <vol> yeah
Jun 03 02:12:31 <vol> are you calling this in the UI thread?
Jun 03 02:14:22 <zhobbs> yeah
Jun 03 02:14:29 <zhobbs> it's a bug
Jun 03 02:14:31 <zhobbs> gotta be
Jun 03 02:15:14 <duey> would it not be breaking everything if it was a bug?
Jun 03 02:15:22 <duey> (do you use more than one textview?)
Jun 03 02:15:25 <duey> are they all breaking
Jun 03 02:15:34 <zhobbs> no
Jun 03 02:15:59 <zhobbs> but it's being called, not giving errors
Jun 03 02:16:16 <vol> yeah, are you sure it's happening in the UI thread?
Jun 03 02:16:30 <zhobbs> even if I change it to tv.setText("HELLLLLO!!!") it doesn't do it
Jun 03 02:16:32 <duey> vol, you get an exception if it isnt
Jun 03 02:16:33 <zhobbs> vol: it's in a handler
Jun 03 02:16:37 <vol> argh!
Jun 03 02:16:45 <vol> both barrels
Jun 03 02:16:47 <zhobbs> and handlers give exception if not created in UI thread
Jun 03 02:16:57 <zhobbs> oh well
Jun 03 02:19:22 <zhobbs> I can break there and Log.v() there to make sure it gets there...so it's def getting executed
Jun 03 02:19:50 <duey> it hates you
Jun 03 02:20:11 <zhobbs> well, it's mutual then! :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jun 03 02:59:57 2008