**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jun 06 02:59:56 2008
Jun 06 04:16:24 <jasta> romainguy: do you know how the debugging tools interface with a running handset?  i mean, if you wanted to invoke a shell on a real handset, what mechanism is used?
Jun 06 04:16:50 <romainguy> jasta: adb
Jun 06 04:16:55 <jasta> i mean physically
Jun 06 04:17:20 <jasta> via USB?
Jun 06 04:19:13 <jasta> how does this mechanism actually get established?  usbnet and a TCP connection or something proprietary?
Jun 06 04:27:21 <romainguy> USB
Jun 06 04:28:22 <jasta> do you know how adb knows how to attach to the device via USB?
Jun 06 04:33:22 <jasta> teehee
Jun 06 04:33:31 <jasta> i apparently know another Android team member that i didn't even realize
Jun 06 04:33:50 <jasta> San "NeTTwerk" Mehat ;)
Jun 06 04:33:57 <jasta> i still have the Sounds of Slashdot CD he made, lol
Jun 06 04:49:19 <jasta> he was at the android Q&A
Jun 06 04:49:45 <jasta> that is so weird.  i haven't talked to him in ages
Jun 06 04:51:43 <muthu> jasta: your friend?
Jun 06 04:52:00 <jasta> well not really, since i haven't talked to him in like 6 years
Jun 06 04:52:31 <jasta> we knew each other mostly on IRC, but i did meet him once at a Linux World Expo conference years ago
Jun 06 04:53:06 <jasta> such a weird coincidence.  i must not have heard him introduce himself because i definitely recognize his name
Jun 06 05:02:43 <jasta> i honestly don't even remember if he's significantly older than me or not
Jun 06 05:02:56 <jasta> i didn't think so, but i was 16 when i met him so i probably remember everything wrong :)
Jun 06 05:07:13 <jasta> judging from this picture of him at the Q&A, i think he's maybe just a few years older than me
Jun 06 05:09:52 <muthu> jasta: you have a lot of friends in google
Jun 06 05:09:57 <jasta> apparently :)
Jun 06 05:10:03 <jasta> all coincidence, i assure you
Jun 06 05:10:23 <muthu> haha
Jun 06 05:10:35 <muthu> i have serious doubts :)
Jun 06 05:13:28 <jasta> it's probably just my long open source carrier catching up to me ;)
Jun 06 05:13:44 <muthu> good for you
Jun 06 05:15:07 <jasta> or i suppose i should say, catching up to *them* and not me, aww :)
Jun 06 08:57:57 <NiZoX> hi
Jun 06 09:02:53 <davidw> hi
Jun 06 13:20:36 <zhobbs_> I need sleep
Jun 06 13:22:22 <zhobbs_> I'm nodding off at my desk
Jun 06 16:00:45 <dcordes_> hi :)
Jun 06 16:15:40 <dcordes_> not much going on here
Jun 06 16:15:57 <dcordes_> shoragan: hi :D
Jun 06 16:16:16 <jasta> yay, i have an HTC Vogue today to play with
Jun 06 16:17:42 <dcordes_> haha nooo don't do this. You can probably harm somebody
Jun 06 16:18:07 <dcordes_> I remember you telling me it's not good if you can access the kernel image
Jun 06 16:20:03 <dcordes_> jasta: wasn't that you?
Jun 06 16:20:33 <jasta> huh?
Jun 06 16:21:20 <dcordes_> of course I remember the conversation exactly
Jun 06 16:21:39 <dcordes_> anyway don't dare playing with the vogue you will brick it
Jun 06 16:22:45 <jasta> why would haret brick it?
Jun 06 16:22:48 <jasta> oh, he left anyway
Jun 06 16:48:22 <jasta> hey romain
Jun 06 16:50:48 <romainguy__> hey
Jun 06 17:02:31 <tethridge> damn that vogue is ugly
Jun 06 17:08:47 <jasta> tethridge: sure is ;)
Jun 06 17:09:06 <tethridge> I hope they put android on a diamond
Jun 06 17:09:32 <tethridge> I'm sure they are thinking the same.  That would be a good competitor to the iphone
Jun 06 17:13:30 <dmoffett> Diamond still has a ways to go to beat an iPhone but I think one thing that will beat the iPhone is a keyboard.  I think a lot of people are addicted to a real keyboard.
Jun 06 17:20:10 <tethridge> dmoffett, what is lacking on the diamond as far as the hardware specs?
Jun 06 17:21:20 <dmoffett> to make sure we are talking about the same thing
Jun 06 17:21:22 <dmoffett> http://news.cnet.com/2300-1039_3-6239059-1.html
Jun 06 17:26:53 <dmoffett> Not sure about the hardware diffs just looking at the form factor and screen size.  Diamond looks a lot like an old  Zune, which cleary has not kept up with even the old iPods.
Jun 06 17:27:11 <tethridge> yeah, that is the same one I'm talking about
Jun 06 17:27:24 <tethridge> I would hope that they remove most of the buttons, since they really aren't needed
Jun 06 17:27:33 <tethridge> but the specs on the hardware look nice
Jun 06 17:27:48 <dmoffett> do you have a better link?
Jun 06 17:27:50 <tethridge> http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/05/06/htc-touch-diamond-hands-on/
Jun 06 17:28:37 <tethridge> of course the product page really has a lot of details
Jun 06 17:28:38 <tethridge> http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=46278
Jun 06 17:28:45 <dmoffett> personally I hope someone ports android to the iPhone.
Jun 06 17:29:00 <tethridge> here are the specs http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=46286
Jun 06 17:29:42 <tethridge> gps, 3.2 megapixel camera, fm radio with rds, all features I want
Jun 06 17:29:58 <dmoffett> Cool
Jun 06 17:30:21 <tethridge> htc can make it happen since they are on the OHA
Jun 06 17:31:07 <tethridge> it looks like it has two cameras according to the specs
Jun 06 17:31:14 <tethridge> I didn't see the second one though
Jun 06 17:31:35 <dmoffett> One on the front and one on the back I would imaging.
Jun 06 17:31:44 <dmoffett> imagine.
Jun 06 17:32:56 <tethridge> yeah, looks like it is near the hole where you listen
Jun 06 17:34:51 <dmoffett> agps seems interesting.
Jun 06 17:53:53 <shingen> the problem with htc devices on qualcomm chipsets is the lack of graphics driver support from qualcomm
Jun 06 17:54:14 <shingen> does anyone know if Google has any ways to get around that?
Jun 06 18:00:30 <tethridge> I thought I heard that google was coding a driver for the qualcomm chipset
Jun 06 18:00:39 <tethridge> first time it had been done
Jun 06 18:00:50 <tethridge> I assume it was going to be open source
Jun 06 18:01:15 <tethridge> of course that may be a bad assumption considering the recent turn of events with the sdk
Jun 06 18:01:41 <tethridge> I wish google could make a little announcement about the android phones
Jun 06 18:01:59 <tethridge> it's hard not to go grab an iPhone next week when they come out
Jun 06 18:02:13 <tethridge> I've been waiting since the beginning of the year for the android phone
Jun 06 18:02:16 <dmoffett> maybe they are waiting until after Apple does thier thing.
Jun 06 18:02:31 <dmoffett> It would not be good to be trumped in a week.
Jun 06 18:02:59 <tethridge> true
Jun 06 18:03:13 <tethridge> they got time to incorporate whatever has added
Jun 06 18:05:12 <dmoffett> After working on both platforms my preference is Android assuming the system is open and I can actually get the sdk.  :-(  At least with Apple I already know I am second class going in.
Jun 06 18:05:56 <romainguy__> the system will be open source
Jun 06 18:05:59 <romainguy__> and you will get access to the SDK
Jun 06 18:06:05 <romainguy__> just be patient :)
Jun 06 18:06:44 <dmoffett> Cool, sorry just can't help but whine.  :-(
Jun 06 18:06:54 <romainguy__> no problem, I understand
Jun 06 18:07:59 <dmoffett> romainguy: Are you back from France?
Jun 06 18:08:06 <romainguy__> yes indeed
Jun 06 18:08:07 <shingen> The typical reverse engineering scenario cannot be applied, e.g., reversed engineered, speced out, fire the consultants who did the specing and then hire 'virgins'
Jun 06 18:08:21 <dmoffett> Did you have a good vacation?
Jun 06 18:08:25 <shingen> to convert spec to code
Jun 06 18:08:26 <romainguy__> it was nice
Jun 06 18:08:29 <romainguy__> I want more now :)
Jun 06 18:08:38 <shingen> because there is no 100% working version of qualcomm drivers for htc :(
Jun 06 18:08:57 <tethridge> romainguy, do you work for google?
Jun 06 18:08:57 <dmoffett> I am really siked about the tour de France this year.
Jun 06 18:09:01 <romainguy__> tethridge: yes I do
Jun 06 18:09:06 <dmoffett> Should be really good.
Jun 06 18:09:20 <tethridge> can you clarify what I heard about the qualcomm driver?  (assuming you can talk about it)
Jun 06 18:09:25 <tethridge> dmoffett, why?
Jun 06 18:09:33 <romainguy__> tethridge: what did you hear about the qualcomm drivers?
Jun 06 18:09:52 <tethridge> all the competition can't attend
Jun 06 18:09:59 <dmoffett> There are like 6 GC contenders.
Jun 06 18:10:09 <tethridge> I heard that google was helping to write a driver for it
Jun 06 18:10:23 <tethridge> dmoffett, contator and levi won't be there
Jun 06 18:10:25 <dmoffett> and some guys from Boulder, CO racing.
Jun 06 18:10:33 <romainguy__> tethridge: I can't answer that question :)
Jun 06 18:10:37 <tethridge> ok
Jun 06 18:11:17 <tethridge> to me the Tour just smacks of politics when you don't let the previous years winner defend his title because of something he didn't even do
Jun 06 18:11:43 <shingen> fwiw, I heard reports that the latest nightly build works on Kaiser (HTC device), so the drivers are at least compatible
Jun 06 18:11:52 <shingen> but optimized is another thing...
Jun 06 18:12:31 <dmoffett> Not much I can do about the sdk or politics in the tour.  Just have to make the best of it.
Jun 06 18:12:50 <morrildl> davidw: langpop has made a little stir, internally :)
Jun 06 18:13:39 <tethridge> well, if enough of us tour watchers don't tune in, it will hurt their ratings and they may think, maybe we shouldn't do stupid things.
Jun 06 18:14:23 <tethridge> as for the sdk, we can bitch so that dmoffett and friends squirm a little.  :-)
Jun 06 18:14:39 <tethridge> I know they are listening
Jun 06 18:14:46 <tethridge> whether they say something or not
Jun 06 18:14:53 <dmoffett> Why would I squirm?
Jun 06 18:15:08 <dmoffett> I don't work for Google.
Jun 06 18:15:17 <dmoffett> They don't allow old farts in.
Jun 06 18:15:19 <tethridge> I mean romainguy
Jun 06 18:15:22 <tethridge> sorry
Jun 06 18:15:55 <romainguy__> tethridge: you can bitch all you want :)
Jun 06 18:16:21 <tethridge> jasta has done enough for me today
Jun 06 18:17:05 <davidw> morrildl, oh, cool!
Jun 06 18:17:21 <davidw> morrildl, how so?
Jun 06 18:17:43 <morrildl> davidw: we have an internal list for general developer-related discussion
Jun 06 18:17:45 <AttractiveApe> jasta: get ahold of that Touch yet?
Jun 06 18:18:06 <morrildl> someone found langpop and posted it to that list, and it started a discussion
Jun 06 18:18:10 <AttractiveApe> I was able to get part of Jasta's app working on my phone last night
Jun 06 18:18:21 <romainguy__> morrildl: what's langpop?
Jun 06 18:18:23 <AttractiveApe> Pretty exciting :D
Jun 06 18:18:26 <davidw> romainguy, langpop.com
Jun 06 18:18:42 <davidw> morrildl, well, encourage them to write me, too:-)
Jun 06 18:18:45 <zhobbs_> davidw: you create that?
Jun 06 18:18:49 <davidw> yeah
Jun 06 18:18:57 <zhobbs_> nice, I've seen that before
Jun 06 18:19:02 <zhobbs_> good job
Jun 06 18:19:30 <davidw> it's quite unscientific, but it would be difficult/expensive to get really precise about it
Jun 06 18:19:36 <davidw> thanks
Jun 06 18:19:50 <romainguy__> davidw: the notes you make about queries for C are interesting :)
Jun 06 18:20:09 <davidw> C is a bitch:-/
Jun 06 18:20:26 <davidw> D is bad too
Jun 06 18:22:00 <zhobbs_> yeah, I was thinking that the popularity of C might be overrepresented there
Jun 06 18:22:05 <zhobbs_> maybe not
Jun 06 18:23:13 <zhobbs_> would a page that has like a "click on a letter to view items that start with that letter: A B C D" show up on the search for C?
Jun 06 18:24:35 <davidw> zhobbs_, I attach 'programming' to it
Jun 06 18:25:53 <zhobbs_> ah
Jun 06 18:26:10 <davidw> that means the results are completely and totally accurate;-)
Jun 06 18:26:29 <davidw> actually I don't think they're too bad, all things considered
Jun 06 18:26:35 <davidw> throwing lots of sources at it helps, IMO
Jun 06 18:27:52 <dmoffett> davidw: Does Objective C fall under C?
Jun 06 18:28:02 <zhobbs_> I think the reddit results are interesting
Jun 06 18:28:12 <zhobbs_> python is trendy
Jun 06 18:28:25 <dmoffett> or are there so few using Objective C?
Jun 06 18:29:09 <davidw> dmoffett, mmmm that might be a good one to add
Jun 06 18:29:58 <davidw> dmoffett, but it's also an example of things that will probably get confused
Jun 06 18:30:38 <davidw> ok, back to cooking dinner
Jun 06 18:31:06 <dmoffett> zhobbs: why do you say Python is trendy?  Python was being used in the 90s quite a bit?
Jun 06 18:32:02 <dmoffett> We started using Python on some DARPA projects in 1995 I think.
Jun 06 18:32:37 <zhobbs_> dunno, just seems like it's the "cool" language
Jun 06 18:32:40 <zhobbs_> that and ruby
Jun 06 18:33:58 <dmoffett> What is really sad is Visual Basic, I mean damn.
Jun 06 18:35:05 <dmoffett> I would flip burgers before programming in VB.
Jun 06 18:35:18 <zhobbs_> VB prolly pays 3x
Jun 06 18:35:21 <zhobbs_> :)
Jun 06 18:35:41 <zhobbs_> though most VB programmers I've worked with should really be flipping burgers
Jun 06 18:35:51 <dmoffett> lol
Jun 06 19:09:09 <jasta> yawn
Jun 06 19:23:50 <michaelnovakjr__> dude flight of the conchords at io?
Jun 06 19:23:59 <jasta> yeah
Jun 06 19:24:00 <jasta> they were there
Jun 06 19:24:05 <michaelnovakjr__> sweet
Jun 06 19:24:09 <michaelnovakjr__> you see it?
Jun 06 19:26:45 <zhobbs_> michaelnovakjr__: yeah, it was awesome
Jun 06 19:27:00 <michaelnovakjr__> yea they are funny dudes
Jun 06 19:28:19 <zhobbs_> yeah
Jun 06 19:28:48 <zhobbs_> My favorite line of the night  "we're very popular in new zealand, we play all the big search engine  gigs out there"
Jun 06 19:30:44 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: nah, i skipped it.  had other things goin on
Jun 06 19:31:01 <michaelnovakjr__> zhobbs_: haha
Jun 06 19:31:16 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, still staying away from android?
Jun 06 19:31:49 <jasta> actually, right now i'm hacking the Vogue to get SD card support going
Jun 06 19:31:50 <jasta> ;)
Jun 06 19:32:05 <michaelnovakjr__> :)
Jun 06 19:32:07 <jasta> turns out i have one of these
Jun 06 19:32:10 <jasta> got android running on it today
Jun 06 19:32:13 <jasta> impressively fast :)
Jun 06 19:32:20 <michaelnovakjr__> nic
Jun 06 19:32:21 <michaelnovakjr__> e
Jun 06 19:32:23 <jasta> very smooth animations and what not
Jun 06 19:32:26 <michaelnovakjr__> how'd you get it going?
Jun 06 19:32:32 <michaelnovakjr__> emulated?
Jun 06 19:32:54 <zhobbs_> jasta: it runs fast, or got it on there fast?
Jun 06 19:33:35 <michaelnovakjr__> i've got a Touch i want to try installing it on
Jun 06 19:33:51 <jasta> zhobbs_: it runs fast
Jun 06 19:33:56 <jasta> i am trying to make my app work
Jun 06 19:33:59 <jasta> for some reason, the sync process works
Jun 06 19:34:07 <jasta> but the music player hangs instantly when you open it (app not responding)
Jun 06 19:34:19 <jasta> doesnt make a lot of sense.  maybe some IPC issues
Jun 06 19:34:26 <zhobbs_> it's not being emulated right?  it runs natively?
Jun 06 19:34:33 <jasta> yes, it runs natively
Jun 06 19:34:40 <jasta> it also has access to the data radio, and can send sms
Jun 06 19:34:42 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta how's the network work then?
Jun 06 19:34:55 <zhobbs_> is it 3g?
Jun 06 19:35:05 <jasta> that i don't know.
Jun 06 19:35:12 <jasta> sure is slick though
Jun 06 19:35:19 <michaelnovakjr__> ?
Jun 06 19:35:24 <michaelnovakjr__> how does the network work?
Jun 06 19:35:27 <jasta> the form factor on the vogue is not great though, so only apps which were written with a portable layout work
Jun 06 19:35:39 <zhobbs_> you know the res?
Jun 06 19:35:57 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: you can either dial the radio directly (the guy wrote a ril driver for the device), or it can hijack the existing data connection from the phone before you booted linux
Jun 06 19:36:08 <jasta> zhobbs_: 240x320 i think (portrait)
Jun 06 19:36:34 <jasta> anyway, i'm loading my app in the initrd right now.  anyone want me to test their ap too? :)
Jun 06 19:37:57 <zhobbs_> jasta: where'd you get it?  I'm tempted
Jun 06 19:38:10 <jasta> the phone itself?
Jun 06 19:38:18 <michaelnovakjr__> the rom
Jun 06 19:38:21 <jasta> the guy that hacked it has info here: http://it029000.massey.ac.nz/vogue/
Jun 06 19:38:34 <jasta> i'm working on getting the SD card working.  he gave me a few pointers last night.
Jun 06 19:39:02 <jasta> it allegedly can make calls too.
Jun 06 19:39:19 <michaelnovakjr__> yea?
Jun 06 19:39:26 <jasta> i only tested sms, which did work
Jun 06 19:39:28 <zhobbs_> jasta: where'd you get the phone?
Jun 06 19:39:36 <michaelnovakjr__> keeps the windows stuff for that jasta?
Jun 06 19:39:38 <jasta> my co-worker actually has one of these.  with service on sprint.
Jun 06 19:39:45 <michaelnovakjr__> i have sprint too
Jun 06 19:39:51 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: no, haret is like loadlin of old
Jun 06 19:40:02 <jasta> it boots linux natively, it just uses WinCE as a launching point to do that, rather than the HTC bootloader.
Jun 06 19:40:07 <jasta> otherwise, it is not emulation.
Jun 06 19:40:42 <michaelnovakjr__> i meant for phone functionality
Jun 06 19:40:47 <michaelnovakjr__> carrier stuff
Jun 06 19:40:48 <romainguy__> jasta: zhobbs_: it runs fast << told you :))
Jun 06 19:40:57 <michaelnovakjr__> haha
Jun 06 19:41:10 <zhobbs_> gotta write a cron job for a cell tower location provider
Jun 06 19:41:15 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: i dont know what you mean then?  Windows Mobile is not involved once it boots.
Jun 06 19:41:23 <jasta> the guy wrote a ril driver to make this work
Jun 06 19:41:24 <jasta> for linux
Jun 06 19:41:29 <michaelnovakjr__> ah cool
Jun 06 19:41:52 <jasta> and its even capable of dialing the data connection itself.
Jun 06 19:42:12 <jasta> but there's some voodoo username/password that i do not know
Jun 06 19:42:19 <jasta> that your carrier programs into your phone
Jun 06 19:42:35 <michaelnovakjr__> interesting
Jun 06 19:42:42 <zhobbs_> hmmm, yeah we need data
Jun 06 19:42:42 <michaelnovakjr__> if you get calling working on it let me know
Jun 06 19:42:45 <jasta> anyway, i'm about to repackage the initrd, anyone want their apk dropped in?
Jun 06 19:42:54 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: it does allegedly work, i just simply didn't try it
Jun 06 19:43:07 <jasta> from the guy doing all this work:
Jun 06 19:43:09 <jasta> Update(23/5/08): You can now make and receive audio calls. The phone should vibrate when a call is received. Press the red button twice to hangup
Jun 06 19:43:25 <jasta> Update(29/5/08): SMS text send and receive now works.
Jun 06 19:43:36 <michaelnovakjr__> interesting
Jun 06 19:43:52 <jasta> i guess thats a no on apks...ill just load it with my app then :)
Jun 06 19:44:27 <michaelnovakjr__> i don't have a decent app to try :)
Jun 06 19:45:35 <michaelnovakjr__> i'm going to try running it on my Touch
Jun 06 19:45:53 <jasta> it actually worked fine first try
Jun 06 19:45:59 <jasta> this guy has done all the hard work
Jun 06 19:46:50 <michaelnovakjr__> i thought radio drivers were the shady part of android?  I guess this guy got around the carrier stuff?
Jun 06 19:47:02 <jasta> he didnt get around it
Jun 06 19:47:07 <jasta> i'm telling you, he wrote the radio interface library.
Jun 06 19:47:10 <jasta> for this hardware.
Jun 06 19:47:18 <jasta> check out his kernel diff.
Jun 06 19:47:29 <michaelnovakjr__> ok
Jun 06 19:48:02 <jasta> just because android doesnt release them doesn't mean they can't exist.  that just means they can't exist without lots of work
Jun 06 19:48:07 <jasta> check out the size of his patch.  he did a lot of work :)
Jun 06 19:48:18 <zhobbs_> and that's just one person
Jun 06 19:48:18 <michaelnovakjr__> yea, i'm looking at it now
Jun 06 19:48:44 <zhobbs_> that's why if we get fed up with carriers/google we can continue without them (after source is out)
Jun 06 19:48:56 <michaelnovakjr__> :)
Jun 06 19:49:54 <AttractiveApe> heh, did you buy the phone off of him jasta?
Jun 06 19:53:12 <michaelnovakjr__> are the vogue and the touch similar hardware wise?
Jun 06 19:53:46 <AttractiveApe> michaelnovakjr__: the Vogue is the CDMA version of the Touch
Jun 06 19:53:55 <AttractiveApe> The elf is the GSM version, and is very different.
Jun 06 19:54:07 <michaelnovakjr__> there's a Touch CDMA
Jun 06 19:54:10 <michaelnovakjr__> i have one
Jun 06 19:54:13 <michaelnovakjr__> for sprint
Jun 06 19:54:19 <AttractiveApe> Touch is the rebranding name
Jun 06 19:54:22 <AttractiveApe> Vogue is the HTC model name.
Jun 06 19:54:23 <michaelnovakjr__> ah
Jun 06 19:54:49 <michaelnovakjr__> definitely going to go for the android install tonight
Jun 06 19:55:01 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta have you tried the web browser?
Jun 06 19:55:07 <AttractiveApe> I have, it works fine.
Jun 06 19:55:10 <michaelnovakjr__> nice
Jun 06 19:55:12 <AttractiveApe> as does google maps.
Jun 06 19:55:21 <zhobbs_> so data does work?
Jun 06 19:55:23 <AttractiveApe> No GPS support in Linux yet, thought :(
Jun 06 19:55:26 <AttractiveApe> zhobbs_: data works.
Jun 06 19:55:31 <zhobbs_> oh cool
Jun 06 19:55:32 <AttractiveApe> though*
Jun 06 19:55:33 <michaelnovakjr__> any real buggy stuff in it that you have seen?
Jun 06 19:55:58 <AttractiveApe> I don't use it very much -- the lack of persistent writable storage makes it a drag to use.
Jun 06 19:56:42 <michaelnovakjr__> what do you mean?
Jun 06 19:57:02 <AttractiveApe> the way you boot android is via a gzipped initrd and a kernel
Jun 06 19:57:20 <AttractiveApe> and it doesn't have support for the sdcard yet, so there's nowhere to store contact info, or anything useful like that.
Jun 06 19:57:30 <jasta> this is so cool :)
Jun 06 19:57:31 <AttractiveApe> I think that's what jasta is working on right now
Jun 06 19:57:32 <michaelnovakjr__> can't store it on the phone itself?
Jun 06 19:57:33 <jasta> watching Five sync :)
Jun 06 19:57:40 <AttractiveApe> jasta: I know, right :)
Jun 06 19:57:52 <AttractiveApe> jasta: can you get access to the android debugger?
Jun 06 19:58:02 <jasta> i need to figure out how /data is being mounted
Jun 06 19:58:03 <dmoffett> Jasta: to late to get an apk on there?
Jun 06 19:58:07 <jasta> or where things are written to
Jun 06 19:58:14 <jasta> dmoffett: yeah, for now
Jun 06 19:58:27 <jasta> AttractiveApe: well, i talked to Martin last night and I think that usbnet would be required to get adb to work
Jun 06 19:58:35 <jasta> because the USB support isnt there/working/enabled right now
Jun 06 19:58:40 <AttractiveApe> Ah, okay
Jun 06 19:58:42 <jasta> and thats how adb connects to the device
Jun 06 19:58:46 <AttractiveApe> *nods*
Jun 06 19:58:53 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, are you loading apk's by dropping them in the system directory?
Jun 06 19:58:53 <dmoffett> Jasta: In case I am not around.
Jun 06 19:58:55 <jasta> i'm really curious how it's storing this data.  i bet it's a ramdisk
Jun 06 19:58:55 <dmoffett> http://www.vizzvox.com/en-US/info/android_player
Jun 06 19:58:59 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: in /data
Jun 06 19:59:03 <jasta> err, /data/app of course
Jun 06 19:59:07 <michaelnovakjr__> cool
Jun 06 20:00:02 <jasta> the cool thing is that a.sh looks like you could hack it easily to replace /data with the sd card :)
Jun 06 20:00:10 <jasta> so if you got that working, you'd have /data as writable storage
Jun 06 20:00:36 <jasta> i think the first mission here is to get an interactive shell via adb.  that would go a long way toward making this workable.
Jun 06 20:01:07 <AttractiveApe> did you buy the phone, jasta?
Jun 06 20:01:08 <michaelnovakjr__> i'm going to play around with it when i get home tonight
Jun 06 20:01:22 <jasta> AttractiveApe: no, a co-worker has it
Jun 06 20:01:33 <jasta> but i may buy it actually.  this is very promising indeed.
Jun 06 20:01:38 <michaelnovakjr__> was the phone activated before you started the process?
Jun 06 20:01:39 <AttractiveApe> You're just going to steal it on a regular basis :P
Jun 06 20:01:41 <AttractiveApe> heh
Jun 06 20:01:59 <AttractiveApe> michaelnovakjr__: well, if you want data / voice to work, yes.  Otherwise that wouldn't be needed.
Jun 06 20:02:26 <jasta> sigh, five music doesn't respond :(
Jun 06 20:02:36 <michaelnovakjr__> basically is it possible to activate the phone after android is installed or no?
Jun 06 20:02:53 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: android is not installed, it is booted to from Linux
Jun 06 20:02:56 <jasta> err from WinCE
Jun 06 20:03:09 <jasta> so, if you restart, the phone goes happily back to its win mobile stack
Jun 06 20:03:16 <michaelnovakjr__> i see
Jun 06 20:04:24 <AttractiveApe> I doubt android will boot natively on the Vogue, ever.
Jun 06 20:04:28 <jasta> its very impressive to play with
Jun 06 20:04:44 <AttractiveApe> haha, I'm happy I brought it up :p
Jun 06 20:05:06 <AttractiveApe> I thought for sure that people in here would have demo phones.
Jun 06 20:06:44 <jasta> i knew that there was some success getting it to run on real hardware, i just had no idea the radio was working
Jun 06 20:07:04 <michaelnovakjr__> yea
Jun 06 20:07:09 <michaelnovakjr__> that makes it really interesting
Jun 06 20:08:25 <jasta> haha, phone works
Jun 06 20:08:43 <jasta> yup, totally works
Jun 06 20:08:46 <AttractiveApe> jasta: ?
Jun 06 20:08:57 <jasta> i just called my real phone with this
Jun 06 20:08:59 <jasta> it worked
Jun 06 20:09:02 <AttractiveApe> yeah
Jun 06 20:09:05 <AttractiveApe> Cool isn't it :P
Jun 06 20:09:11 <AttractiveApe> haven't tried SMSing
Jun 06 20:09:11 <jasta> but...
Jun 06 20:09:16 <jasta> i did, sms works too
Jun 06 20:09:27 <jasta> if i'm going to try this more seriously, however, i will need to get a debug shell set up.
Jun 06 20:10:36 <AttractiveApe> does the stock kernel usbclient work, or does their need to be probing in that area?
Jun 06 20:10:58 <jasta> i dunno, i haven't experimented at all
Jun 06 20:11:02 <AttractiveApe> damn, need a shell on the phone to find out :/
Jun 06 20:11:14 <jasta> yeah, i'm thinking tho...
Jun 06 20:11:27 <jasta> the best way todo this might just be to write an android app which patches through to sh :)
Jun 06 20:11:44 <jasta> this guy did all the work to get a soft keyboard
Jun 06 20:11:55 <jasta> and that type of android app should be simple to hack up.
Jun 06 20:12:39 <AttractiveApe> hmm, good idea.
Jun 06 20:12:55 <AttractiveApe> since the phone already has sh, can't be that hard.
Jun 06 20:13:19 <jasta> lol, incoming calls work too
Jun 06 20:13:20 <jasta> neat
Jun 06 20:13:24 <jasta> phone even vibrates
Jun 06 20:13:24 <AttractiveApe> ah, it has busybox.
Jun 06 20:13:35 <jasta> well, you can put busybox on there
Jun 06 20:13:36 <jasta> he probably did
Jun 06 20:13:44 <jasta> the SDK initrd does not have it tho
Jun 06 20:14:09 <jasta> in order to make this workable, though, we will definitely need to get adb working
Jun 06 20:14:14 <jasta> and the SD card
Jun 06 20:14:24 <jasta> USB is important also to get network access
Jun 06 20:14:32 <AttractiveApe> hmm, are there any terminal apps for android yet?
Jun 06 20:14:34 <jasta> so that you can more reliably hook up the internet
Jun 06 20:14:42 <jasta> i don't know, but i could probably write one in an hour
Jun 06 20:15:42 <jasta> it seems that the ppp connection does fall out if you don't use it.
Jun 06 20:16:50 <jasta> i'm gonna look into this :)
Jun 06 20:16:55 <jasta> i really want to buy one now hehe
Jun 06 20:17:44 <AttractiveApe> can't seem to find anything completely relevant...
Jun 06 20:17:49 <AttractiveApe> there is this though"
Jun 06 20:17:49 <AttractiveApe> http://www.anddev.org/viewtopic.php?p=195
Jun 06 20:18:26 <dmoffett> and this but I dont think it will help
Jun 06 20:18:27 <dmoffett> http://www.anddev.org/viewtopic.php?p=1016
Jun 06 20:28:11 <tomgibara> I've spent 2 days trying to efficiently combine JMF and JOGL
Jun 06 20:28:15 <tomgibara> I can safely say that I am missing Android already
Jun 06 20:30:23 <jasta> i am strongly considering buying one
Jun 06 20:30:55 <jasta> buying a handset, and just programming it on our company plan for a month or two
Jun 06 20:31:37 <jasta> it would be a lot more fun to play with this than sit and wait on the sidelines for the next SDK :)
Jun 06 20:31:51 <michaelnovakjr__> hell yea!
Jun 06 20:32:03 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, just write an sdk
Jun 06 20:32:05 <jasta> first challenge is to get a shell working in the Android UI
Jun 06 20:32:09 <michaelnovakjr__> :)
Jun 06 20:33:04 * romainguy__ looks at his Term.apk :))
Jun 06 20:33:13 <jasta> you have a Term.apk!?
Jun 06 20:33:18 <romainguy__> yes
Jun 06 20:33:19 <jasta> gah!
Jun 06 20:33:28 <jasta> is that something you can release?
Jun 06 20:33:35 <romainguy__> I didn't write it
Jun 06 20:33:46 <romainguy__> and it doesn't work on M5 anyway after all the changes we've made to the APIs
Jun 06 20:33:56 <jasta> boo.
Jun 06 20:34:03 <dmoffett> second that
Jun 06 20:34:04 <jasta> is it a true emulated terminal?
Jun 06 20:34:16 <romainguy__> yes
Jun 06 20:34:26 <michaelnovakjr__> ooo
Jun 06 20:34:30 <jasta> i might take zaTelnet as a base and just implement a local terminal
Jun 06 20:35:50 <morrildl> back in the Before Time, in the Long Long Ago, legends say that that's how Larry & Sergey knew Android was awesome:  any OS that lets them run a terminal on your phone is okay with them ;)
Jun 06 20:36:16 <michaelnovakjr__> indeed
Jun 06 20:36:29 <morrildl> wait, I guess the way I said that it sounds like they personally want to run a terminal on your phone
Jun 06 20:36:30 <jasta> actually, emulating a VT100 terminal should be very simple with those two links that you guys just pasted
Jun 06 20:36:40 <morrildl> No, larry & sergey are not 1337 h@x0rs :)
Jun 06 20:37:10 <davidw> maybe they want to be able to do shutdown -h now, just like Jeff Bezos did a few hours ago
Jun 06 20:37:46 <michaelnovakjr__> :)
Jun 06 20:37:53 * jasta whips up a terminal
Jun 06 20:42:35 <jasta> i am conflicted though, because this soft keyboard is really hard to use on the vogue
Jun 06 20:42:39 <jasta> so a terminal could be nightmarish
Jun 06 20:42:46 <jasta> usbnet really seems like the way to do it :)
Jun 06 20:42:57 <jasta> but i don't have any information on how a real device connects through adb
Jun 06 20:43:14 <jasta> usbnet would be sensible, then it's just like the emulator
Jun 06 20:43:17 <jasta> but who knows
Jun 06 20:43:51 <jasta> i am all kinds of excited to get this working.
Jun 06 21:08:46 <jasta> AttractiveApe: hmm, the phone loses its data connection a lot
Jun 06 21:08:51 <Smoke_Screen> Hi all
Jun 06 21:08:53 <jasta> i haven't been able to complete a sync of my app becauseit disappears.
Jun 06 21:16:21 <dmoffett> memory issues?
Jun 06 21:16:38 <dmoffett> does your app grow?
Jun 06 21:16:52 <jasta> i can't tell, but the entire network disappears, so that is the more likely culprit :)
Jun 06 21:17:05 <dmoffett> I see.
Jun 06 21:17:16 <jasta> but really, i can't make much progress without a shell.
Jun 06 21:17:43 <dmoffett> I searched the android-internals list for some adb help but could not find any relevant info.
Jun 06 21:27:34 * davidw created a sort-of shell with Hecl
Jun 06 21:36:06 <jasta> actually creating a shell is the easy part
Jun 06 21:36:17 <jasta> lots of people have done work to put a VT100 term emulator on Android
Jun 06 21:36:28 <jasta> in the form of telnet and ssh, which is trivial to modify to work with a local shell
Jun 06 21:36:37 <muthu> jasta: you have an android device?
Jun 06 21:36:37 <jasta> the real trick is going to be real communication with the device via adb
Jun 06 21:36:41 <jasta> that would help immensely
Jun 06 21:36:47 <jasta> well, i have a device that can run it ;0
Jun 06 21:36:53 <muthu> cool
Jun 06 21:37:08 <jasta> i really want to get enough working to run my app successfully
Jun 06 21:37:12 <jasta> but i fear i am a ways off of that :)
Jun 06 21:37:21 <muthu> you should get there
Jun 06 21:37:36 <jasta> for some reason my music player hangs when you open it
Jun 06 21:37:58 <jasta> the sync process works sort of, but there's no persistent storage so that sucks
Jun 06 21:38:20 <jasta> a few things need to happen to make it workable, though.  i need adb connected and working
Jun 06 21:38:28 <jasta> and i need the SD card working
Jun 06 21:38:50 <morrildl> jasta: if you write to SD card and there is no SD card present, strange things happen in M5
Jun 06 21:38:58 <jasta> neither of which seem terribly difficult, considering that the chipset being used here has quite a lot of support in linux already
Jun 06 21:39:13 <jasta> morrildl: with this approach, none of the disk is writable
Jun 06 21:39:19 <morrildl> *nod*
Jun 06 21:39:39 <jasta> but getting the SD card up and modifying a.sh would make it possible to just mount /sdcard merged into /data
Jun 06 21:39:42 <jasta> which would be perfect
Jun 06 21:41:41 <jasta> i just wish i had more info on connecting adb to a real device
Jun 06 21:41:51 <jasta> specifically, if usbnet and a TCP connection from the client is how its done
Jun 06 21:43:20 <romainguy__> jasta: plug a USB cable in the device, run adb and see what happens :p
Jun 06 21:43:56 <muthu> jasta: have you tried the usb thing?
Jun 06 21:44:10 <jasta> romainguy__: that obviously won't work, the basic USB functionality doesn't even exist on the device at this point.
Jun 06 21:44:39 <muthu> what point are you in?
Jun 06 21:44:44 <jasta> what point?
Jun 06 21:45:10 <muthu> why usb doesn't work?
Jun 06 21:45:34 <jasta> i have no idea: i need a shell and some more debug to figure that out.
Jun 06 21:47:15 <muthu> you have android installed on device?
Jun 06 21:48:17 <jasta> lol, well, my first thought is that the kernel's .config does not have CONFIG_USB=y :)
Jun 06 21:48:25 <jasta> but i'd still prefer an interactive shell before i dive into this
Jun 06 21:52:25 <jasta> romainguy__: does M5 support connecting to the internet through USB?
Jun 06 21:52:30 <jasta> from the host computer
Jun 06 21:52:36 <romainguy__> I have no idea
Jun 06 21:52:40 <romainguy__> I doubt it
Jun 06 21:52:53 <jasta> i doubt it too.  i bet that would not be too hard to set up, though.
Jun 06 21:52:56 <jasta> if USB was working correctly
Jun 06 21:53:20 <muthu> why would it be hard?
Jun 06 21:53:47 <muthu> if usb is working, then you connect through that
Jun 06 21:53:54 <jasta> i said i would not be hard.
Jun 06 21:53:56 <jasta> it*
Jun 06 21:54:05 <muthu> oh ok
Jun 06 21:55:11 <dmoffett> Jasta: Does the web browser work?
Jun 06 21:55:28 <jasta> yeah
Jun 06 21:55:43 <jasta> but the data connection is strange.  it disappears and won't return after some length of time
Jun 06 21:55:54 <jasta> i suspect the fix is to get the magic PPP username/password that the carrier requires for connection
Jun 06 21:57:16 <dmoffett> If you can get ssh on there then start up a ssh tunnel back to some linux system if the connection will stay up long enough.
Jun 06 21:57:52 <jasta> it would be much easier to just put a terminal on Android.
Jun 06 21:58:10 <dmoffett> I see.
Jun 06 22:01:20 <morrildl> poor amazon
Jun 06 22:01:53 <morrildl> this cloud stuff is hard.  an extended outage is every Amazonian's and Googler's nightmare :)
Jun 06 22:03:13 <romainguy__> morrildl: URL?
Jun 06 22:03:48 <morrildl> romainguy__: http://consumerist.com/tag/breaking/?i=5013994&t=amazoncom-is-was-down
Jun 06 22:03:53 <davidw> morrildl, I put everything in perspective by thinking about an embedded systems journal article I read once about a life support  monitoring system where error codes included things like "respiratory failure", "cardiac arrest", "low pressure", and so on
Jun 06 22:04:10 <morrildl> romainguy__: http://gigaom.com/2008/06/06/why-amazon-went-down-and-what-it-means-to-you/
Jun 06 22:04:22 <davidw> that is something I would *not* want to program
Jun 06 22:04:24 <morrildl> davidw: indeed
Jun 06 22:04:29 * morrildl used to work for GE
Jun 06 22:04:48 <morrildl> believe it or not, the FDA reviews every line of source code that goes into a medical device before approving it for use on humans
Jun 06 22:06:07 <morrildl> One guy told me a story about how one of his jobs was to attempt to kill rabbits by breaking an X-Ray machine and bypassing its safeguards
Jun 06 22:07:08 <davidw> "Daddy, what do you do at work?  Uh.... well..."
Jun 06 22:10:26 <dmoffett> The Navy's AEGIS system was the same way.  Extensive reviews prior to sending a release to the ship.  It was a nightmare when the AEGIS cruiser shot down the Iranian airline.
Jun 06 22:12:01 <jasta> msm: sdcc: Add support for Qualcomm MSM 7k SD Card Controller
Jun 06 22:12:02 <jasta> Signed-off-by: San Mehat <san@android.com>
Jun 06 22:12:05 <jasta> hehe, that's lucky ;)
Jun 06 22:12:16 <jasta> strange.  that was committed by that guy i know ;)
Jun 06 22:14:41 <davidw> aaaaaaaah, I know that dude, or of him at least
Jun 06 22:14:50 <davidw> he was involved in that Netwinder computer thing
Jun 06 22:15:02 <davidw> I had one of those.... it was cool
Jun 06 22:15:35 <Hai-Fai> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iyUi_amu38
Jun 06 22:15:45 <Hai-Fai> and then it's time to go to bed, nn fellas
Jun 06 22:18:53 <muthu> the alien is funny
Jun 06 22:21:34 <jasta> davidw: i knew him from #e, way back in the day
Jun 06 22:21:43 <jasta> back when he worked at VALinux hehe
Jun 06 22:24:11 <jasta> blast.  i wonder what the difference is between qualcomm msm 7x00a and 7x00
Jun 06 22:24:38 <jasta> the HTC Vogue is MSM7X00, but most of the Android kernel work is targeting the 7X00A
Jun 06 22:38:37 <jasta> lol, this git commit log is telling me a *LOT* about how this all works in android :)
Jun 06 22:38:41 <jasta> it does use usbnet as i thought
Jun 06 22:40:54 <jasta> this is gonna be a fun project over the weekend :)
Jun 06 22:51:18 <AttractiveApe> jasta: does that new kernel patch give SD-level support?
Jun 06 22:51:21 <AttractiveApe> Have you tested that?
Jun 06 22:51:41 <jasta> which new patch?  you mean the last one that martin has on his page?
Jun 06 22:52:29 <AttractiveApe> no, I mean the sd-card patch you just posted above.
Jun 06 22:52:49 <jasta> oh, well, it certainly added support for MSM7X00A w/o DMA which is important.
Jun 06 22:52:57 <jasta> so all that is necessary is porting that down to MSM7X00
Jun 06 22:53:04 <jasta> actually, even if thats necessary :)
Jun 06 22:53:12 <jasta> they might be similar enough that it is not necessary.  HaRET will tell me that.
Jun 06 22:53:26 <AttractiveApe> You sound very happy, jasta
Jun 06 22:53:30 <jasta> i also learned that usbnet (specifically the CBC subset) is used to interact with the phone through adb.
Jun 06 22:55:01 <jasta> martin's patch doesn't apply cleanly against current Git HEAD, so i'm working on that now
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jun 07 02:59:56 2008