**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jun 09 02:59:56 2008
Jun 09 03:26:53 <duey> can someone at google pls do something about the spam in android-*
Jun 09 03:27:06 <duey> its getting really bad
Jun 09 04:07:20 <zhobbs> duey: wow, spam is getting crazy in there
Jun 09 04:09:28 <romainguy> hopefully somebody will get on it tomorrow morning
Jun 09 04:09:31 <romainguy> (weekend and stuff)
Jun 09 09:42:15 * cutmasta is away (away)
Jun 09 14:06:22 <Dougie187> Good Morning!
Jun 09 14:17:20 <cutmasta> mornin Dougie187
Jun 09 14:17:31 <Dougie187> Hows it going cutmasta?
Jun 09 14:18:17 <cutmasta> hmm, good, a bit hot today here in germany
Jun 09 14:18:28 <buster_> hot? im melting
Jun 09 14:18:41 <cutmasta> buster_, yap hot
Jun 09 14:18:45 <buster_> im sooo tired (thx to football!) and its so hot in this room
Jun 09 14:18:46 <buster_> :(
Jun 09 14:18:59 <buster_> schlaaaand!
Jun 09 14:19:01 <buster_> ;D
Jun 09 14:19:04 <cutmasta> haha
Jun 09 14:19:07 <cutmasta> yeah!
Jun 09 14:19:19 <cutmasta> was a great game yesterday with toooo much beer
Jun 09 14:19:22 <cutmasta> hehe
Jun 09 15:21:49 * cutmasta is away (away)
Jun 09 15:36:49 <jasta> re the spam, does Google Groups not use spamassassin or somethin?
Jun 09 15:37:06 <Dougie187> you get spam from google groups?
Jun 09 15:37:21 <jasta> there are spammy posts all over the groups
Jun 09 15:37:58 <Dougie187> thats odd.
Jun 09 15:38:11 <Dougie187> i would think it would be similar to their spam filter for gmail. which is awesome by the way
Jun 09 15:40:42 <Dougie187> hows your rhythmbox plugin going?
Jun 09 15:43:17 <Dougie187> hey romainguy do you know what the package name is in apt for Apache Maven 2.0.8?
Jun 09 15:43:39 <jasta> mvn2
Jun 09 15:43:44 <Dougie187> oh ok.
Jun 09 15:44:03 <Dougie187> btw, im trying to build your project now jasta.
Jun 09 15:45:12 <jasta> off to work
Jun 09 15:46:05 <tethridge> I don't know if you guys have been following the iPhone rumors, but I personally hope that android doesn't include a webcam!
Jun 09 15:46:37 <tethridge> I can see the trouble that us guys will have trying to talk our way out of why we wouldn't accept a video chat with the wife/girlfriend
Jun 09 15:54:48 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 09 15:54:57 <Dougie187> well, android isnt hardware.
Jun 09 15:55:01 <Dougie187> so i dont think you have to worry about it.
Jun 09 15:55:29 <tethridge> yeah, by android I was referring to implementation of a phone
Jun 09 15:55:39 <tethridge> technically incorrect, but you know what I mean
Jun 09 15:55:41 <Dougie187> oohh.
Jun 09 15:56:00 <Dougie187> im sure the same thing will be implemented then.
Jun 09 15:56:07 <tethridge> I know,
Jun 09 15:56:26 <tethridge> I can see it now, out with the guys drinking in a bar and some hot chick just happens to walk by
Jun 09 15:56:41 <tethridge> the girlfriend would be like who's that?
Jun 09 15:56:49 <tethridge> baby, I don't know her
Jun 09 15:56:51 <tethridge> sure
Jun 09 15:57:33 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 09 15:57:42 <Dougie187> just dont pick a phone like that.
Jun 09 15:57:49 <Dougie187> though, it will be hard.
Jun 09 15:57:53 <Dougie187> since almost every phone has a camera now.
Jun 09 15:58:15 <dmoffett> Need the green screen app with the jewelry store back ground.  Of course that could cost you more.  :-)
Jun 09 15:58:33 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 09 16:21:34 <Dougie187> good morning muthu
Jun 09 16:21:38 <Dougie187> hows san fran going?
Jun 09 16:23:25 <muthu> Dougie187: mornin
Jun 09 16:23:27 <muthu> SF is great
Jun 09 16:23:37 <Dougie187> nice
Jun 09 16:23:39 <muthu> went biking across the golden gate bridge
Jun 09 16:23:42 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 09 16:23:46 <Dougie187> i bet that was tiring
Jun 09 16:23:49 <romainguy_> muthu: lucky you
Jun 09 16:23:55 <romainguy_> the weather is so nice these days
Jun 09 16:24:00 <romainguy_> really hot for San Francisco
Jun 09 16:24:05 <muthu> the weather is getting hot
Jun 09 16:24:09 <muthu> much like chennai!
Jun 09 16:24:21 <romainguy_> muthu: sumemr in SF is usually cooler
Jun 09 16:24:22 <muthu> saturday - perfect weather to bike
Jun 09 16:24:36 <muthu> romainguy_: yeah people say that
Jun 09 16:24:51 <muthu> everywhere its getting hotter - global warming
Jun 09 16:24:53 <muthu> i guess
Jun 09 16:25:03 <muthu> we took the entire 40kms for biking
Jun 09 16:25:06 <romainguy_> muthu: France was colder :)
Jun 09 16:25:25 <muthu> romainguy_: you should have had a longer vacation :0
Jun 09 16:25:27 <muthu> :)
Jun 09 16:25:59 <muthu> the bike was a bit smaller, but i made it anyways
Jun 09 16:25:59 <Dougie187> you make it down to fillmore street yet?
Jun 09 16:26:19 <muthu> Dougie187: went through fillmore, made a comment about it
Jun 09 16:26:23 <muthu> but not yet
Jun 09 16:26:28 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 09 16:26:36 <muthu> we went to magnolia
Jun 09 16:26:52 <muthu> a pub/restaurant
Jun 09 16:27:00 <muthu> then to a belgian pub called tornado
Jun 09 16:27:58 <muthu> pretty nice weekend, overall :)
Jun 09 16:28:57 <trigatch4> yo whats up?
Jun 09 16:30:33 <jasta> hello
Jun 09 16:31:02 <jasta> muthu: everywhere?  it snowed in the mountains here this weekend.
Jun 09 16:31:10 <muthu> wow cool
Jun 09 16:31:25 <muthu> i like snow
Jun 09 16:31:29 <muthu> atleast for sometime
Jun 09 16:31:36 <muthu> jasta: went somewhere?
Jun 09 16:31:55 <jasta> i had to do family stuff all weekend
Jun 09 16:31:58 <jasta> totally sucked
Jun 09 16:32:04 <jasta> my family is so racist and ignorant hehe
Jun 09 16:32:24 <Dougie187> jasta: isnt that how most families are?
Jun 09 16:32:30 <jasta> yeah, basically.
Jun 09 16:32:37 <muthu> lol
Jun 09 16:32:49 <muthu> everyone is racist in their own way.. so...
Jun 09 16:32:59 <jasta> everytime i say anything, my uncle tells me how i'm wrong and that god this and that.
Jun 09 16:33:29 <muthu> looks like you had a great time ;)
Jun 09 16:33:45 <jasta> i was telling my mom about the Phoenix mission and he used that opportunity to tell me about how i'm going to hell
Jun 09 16:34:00 <jasta> apparently he thinks that NASA is one big lie, run by the anti-christ.
Jun 09 16:34:10 <jasta> sent from the devil to destroy christianity
Jun 09 16:34:37 <Dougie187> yeah. there are a lot of people like that.
Jun 09 16:34:55 <Dougie187> completely ignorant. and the sad part, is the ignorant people think they know everything.
Jun 09 16:35:11 <jasta> it's easy to dismiss though.  any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Jun 09 16:35:21 <jasta> and for them, it doesn't take much to qualify as sufficiently advanced :)
Jun 09 16:35:52 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 09 16:35:58 <Dougie187> anything they cant build with legos
Jun 09 16:36:44 <jasta> i was talking about Gallileo's house arrest once at Thanksgiving to my mom
Jun 09 16:36:55 <jasta> after i watched some thing on the discovery channel that i thought was interesting
Jun 09 16:37:07 <jasta> and he went on his high horse about how he should have burned in hell
Jun 09 16:37:14 <Dougie187> hah
Jun 09 16:37:23 <Dougie187> Did you watch that Discovery thing about nasa?
Jun 09 16:37:28 <jasta> when i told him that the vatican recently apologised for what they did to him, he complained that they were weak.
Jun 09 16:37:29 <Dougie187> something like "We Came from Earth?
Jun 09 16:37:30 <Dougie187> or something.
Jun 09 16:37:35 <jasta> Dougie187: no, but i hope to.
Jun 09 16:37:46 <Dougie187> wasnt it on yesterday?
Jun 09 16:38:01 <jasta> i dont have cable, but i can still watch it.
Jun 09 16:38:07 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 09 16:38:29 <jasta> space is something that really fascinates me.  i enjoy the idea of applied physics on the order that humans can't even approach.
Jun 09 16:38:50 <jasta> that all just happens naturally
Jun 09 16:39:48 <jasta> for a while after high school i was taking community college courses just for fun and pursued their astrophysics program as far as they went before you had to go to a major university
Jun 09 16:40:42 <jasta> went up through calculus and differential equations as well, then quit.  not interested in applying that sort of thing directly in my career, i just enjoy being familiar with it on some level.
Jun 09 16:41:26 * jasta is one of those stargazing dorks too
Jun 09 16:41:48 <muthu> space is amazing
Jun 09 16:42:33 <trigatch4> you all paying attention to WWDC?
Jun 09 16:42:48 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 09 16:42:52 <Dougie187> you should get a telescope.
Jun 09 16:43:57 <Dougie187> jasta: you have a degree in CS?
Jun 09 16:44:03 <jasta> no
Jun 09 16:44:16 <Dougie187> no degrees?
Jun 09 16:44:19 <jasta> no
Jun 09 16:44:28 <Dougie187> any plans to get one in the future?
Jun 09 16:44:44 <jasta> yes, but only if i can get sponsorship through a company
Jun 09 16:45:10 <muthu> how much it cost?
Jun 09 16:45:15 <jasta> a lot
Jun 09 16:45:15 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 09 16:45:16 <Dougie187> a lot.
Jun 09 16:45:19 <Dougie187> like 40k
Jun 09 16:45:23 <Dougie187> for a state school
Jun 09 16:45:36 <Dougie187> an "alright" state school.
Jun 09 16:45:37 <jasta> and let's be honest about most undergrad CS programs: they aren't great.
Jun 09 16:45:43 <muthu> hmm, thought it was cheaper for americans
Jun 09 16:45:44 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 09 16:46:02 <jasta> so $40k for a mediocre education would give me buyers remorse :)
Jun 09 16:46:03 <Dougie187> undergrad CS programs are not what they use to be.
Jun 09 16:46:19 <Dougie187> you could always get something that interested you but wasnt quite CD
Jun 09 16:46:22 <Dougie187> CS
Jun 09 16:46:28 <jasta> but i like the idea of having access to all those resources and the ability to study topics i just couldn't on my own
Jun 09 16:46:29 <Dougie187> but had the Computer aspect.
Jun 09 16:46:33 <jasta> just not for $40k.
Jun 09 16:46:44 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 09 16:46:49 <Dougie187> do you have an AA?
Jun 09 16:47:07 <Dougie187> since you went to community college for a while?
Jun 09 16:47:11 <jasta> no, i wasn't pursuing one.
Jun 09 16:47:22 <jasta> i didn't take any English/Lit or Histroy courses.
Jun 09 16:47:39 <Dougie187> english/lit courses suck.
Jun 09 16:47:45 <Dougie187> i think they are completely pointless.
Jun 09 16:47:52 <Dougie187> History courses are quite fun though.
Jun 09 16:47:59 <jasta> although i did take sociology up to the 300 level.  not that i am otherwise interested in that, but we had a great opportunity.  a former harvard professor taught there "for fun".
Jun 09 16:48:01 <Dougie187> I took one on Mythology.
Jun 09 16:48:16 <Dougie187> thats pretty cool.
Jun 09 16:48:27 <Dougie187> Classical Mythology was that course. that was awesome.
Jun 09 16:48:29 <jasta> basically, his wife wanted to move closer to her family, and he got bored in retirement so he took a job at the local community college
Jun 09 16:48:44 <jasta> so it was an awesome opportunity to get to hear him lecture for just $200 a class :)
Jun 09 16:48:50 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 09 16:49:19 <jasta> he was a very interesting guy
Jun 09 16:49:41 <jasta> worked at Harvard for 12 years, 8 of which studying under some other really interesting guy.
Jun 09 16:50:28 <Dougie187> so you have been working out in industry for a while then?
Jun 09 16:50:36 <jasta> yes, a long while.
Jun 09 16:50:37 <Dougie187> since ~18-19?
Jun 09 16:50:40 <jasta> since 16.
Jun 09 16:50:45 <Dougie187> ohh.
Jun 09 16:50:45 <Dougie187> cool
Jun 09 16:50:50 <Dougie187> Where all have you worked?
Jun 09 16:51:10 <jasta> my first job was as an intern at a text analysis company contracted by the navy.
Jun 09 16:51:17 <jasta> then i was hired full-time after high school.
Jun 09 16:51:55 <jasta> after that i worked for Franciscan and helped build kiosk machines for their occupational health division so they could do their patient admission and tracking electronically
Jun 09 16:52:44 <jasta> and i worked for a while on collegegear.com, doing their back-end administrative console to track sales, growth, etc.
Jun 09 16:53:58 <jasta> and now i work in a hybrid engineer/sysadmin capacity at a lighting manufacturers rep in the greater pacific northwest.
Jun 09 16:54:13 <Dougie187> sweet
Jun 09 16:54:19 <Dougie187> sounds pretty fun.
Jun 09 16:54:20 <jasta> i have built quite a few interesting things here.
Jun 09 16:54:27 <Dougie187> you have a lot more technical work experience then i do
Jun 09 16:54:42 <Dougie187> i have a lot of food service.
Jun 09 16:54:47 <jasta> i wrote a tool to augment the main sales instrument we use here, to provide sophisticated reporting, job tracking, etc per salesmen and department.
Jun 09 16:54:52 <Dougie187> +1 year being a lab consultant in a computer lab.
Jun 09 16:54:59 <Dougie187> and 2 years being a windows sys admin
Jun 09 16:55:00 <jasta> and i also ported parts of that to a mobile app that hte salesmen can use out in the field
Jun 09 16:55:37 <Dougie187> i think i enjoy Scientific Computing more then technical computing though.
Jun 09 16:56:02 <jasta> in my personal time, i prefer solving more difficult problems than i get to at this company, of course ;)
Jun 09 16:56:41 <jasta> distributed scalability in particular is an interesting problem space for me.
Jun 09 16:57:27 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 09 16:57:36 <Dougie187> do you do a lot of HPC stuff?
Jun 09 16:58:13 <jasta> no, the type of distribution i have applied myself is something of the opposite problem :)
Jun 09 16:58:25 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 09 17:00:12 <jasta> my favorite part of programming, though, is ultimately in applied CS.  not necessarly solving new problems, but organizing solutions functionally.
Jun 09 17:00:14 <Dougie187> I got my wife a new HDD camcorder this past week.
Jun 09 17:00:16 <Dougie187> its so cool.
Jun 09 17:00:22 <jasta> it's more the architectural side of programming.
Jun 09 17:00:38 <jasta> less glamorous, but more gratifying ;)
Jun 09 17:00:43 <Dougie187> yeah. I like the idea of doing science with programming.
Jun 09 17:01:01 <Dougie187> i think its really fun. and gives you a real life thing to look at.
Jun 09 17:01:07 <Dougie187> or situation you want to model.
Jun 09 17:01:41 <muthu> jasta: what's your goal?
Jun 09 17:01:49 <jasta> professionally?
Jun 09 17:02:57 <muthu> yes
Jun 09 17:03:49 <jasta> i'd like to go back to working on projects that the general public interacts with.
Jun 09 17:04:01 <jasta> i enjoy that type of work the best.
Jun 09 17:04:11 <muthu> like what?
Jun 09 17:04:14 <muthu> be specific
Jun 09 17:04:37 <jasta> well it's not hard to see that a specific interest of mine is in the mobile space, specifically Android.
Jun 09 17:04:39 <muthu> give me a single goal
Jun 09 17:05:10 <muthu> so you want to be an Android expert?
Jun 09 17:05:45 <jasta> why would i want to limit myself to a specific, single goal?
Jun 09 17:06:06 <muthu> so you don't have goals?
Jun 09 17:06:46 <jasta> that's one conclusion, even if not the correct one.
Jun 09 17:07:04 <muthu> haha
Jun 09 17:07:15 <jasta> but you and i are not engaging in a semantic discussion again.
Jun 09 17:07:27 <muthu> i am asking you a question
Jun 09 17:07:33 <muthu> and you are not able to answer
Jun 09 17:07:42 <dmoffett> muthu: What is your goal?
Jun 09 17:07:47 <jasta> your appreciation of words does not match mine sufficient enough to actually meaningfully interact on this topic.
Jun 09 17:07:52 <jasta> so, we won't.
Jun 09 17:07:55 <muthu> dmoffett: good question
Jun 09 17:08:07 <muthu> my goal in life is:
Jun 09 17:08:27 <muthu> to buy an house in SF city
Jun 09 17:08:32 <muthu> that's it
Jun 09 17:08:35 <dmoffett> Nice
Jun 09 17:08:41 <jasta> what if you visit a city that you'd prefer to live in?
Jun 09 17:08:59 <muthu> jasta: that's my current goal
Jun 09 17:09:08 <jasta> right, well, i don't think as concretely as you.
Jun 09 17:09:12 <muthu> the goals keep changing, which is ok
Jun 09 17:09:21 <muthu> which is natural
Jun 09 17:09:27 <jasta> i know how i want to feel, and how i want my life to be.  there is no concrete instance of anything that can guarantee i reach that goal.
Jun 09 17:09:31 <dmoffett> Cool then I will have a place to stay when I visit.  :-)
Jun 09 17:09:40 <muthu> dmoffett: welcome :)
Jun 09 17:09:44 <jasta> i don't presume to think if i get a job at a specific ocmpany and move to a specific city that i will be happy.  i may be miserable.
Jun 09 17:10:17 <muthu> jasta: how you'll feel after you reach your goal is something no one can define
Jun 09 17:10:25 <muthu> it depends
Jun 09 17:10:33 <jasta> i would not, for example, choose a goal to marry a tall, blonde-haired woman.  i don't know that it would make me as happy as, say, a short brunette.
Jun 09 17:10:47 <muthu> see again you are confusing yourself
Jun 09 17:10:50 <jasta> instead, my goal is to marry someone that makes me sustainably happy.
Jun 09 17:11:01 <muthu> jasta: ha!
Jun 09 17:11:09 <muthu> which is exactly not attainable
Jun 09 17:11:14 <dmoffett> Good luck with that.
Jun 09 17:11:59 <jasta> i do not agree.  can you prove to me how you are correct?
Jun 09 17:11:59 <muthu> instead you have specific goals, you can more likely get it
Jun 09 17:12:02 <Dougie187> i think its attainable muthu
Jun 09 17:12:20 <Dougie187> lol jasta this is like that nationality discussion.
Jun 09 17:12:39 <f00f-> philosophical discusssions again :)
Jun 09 17:12:46 <jasta> Dougie187: Right, my point is that muthu does not appreciate semantics.
Jun 09 17:13:16 <Dougie187> specific goals are setting yourself up for disappointment.
Jun 09 17:13:18 <jasta> So, communicating with him is, generally, pointless.
Jun 09 17:13:32 <muthu> a goal has to be concrete
Jun 09 17:13:38 <Dougie187> no it doesnt.
Jun 09 17:13:53 <jasta> See, that is precisely what I mean.  Muthu does not understand this very simple idea ;)
Jun 09 17:14:04 <muthu> if it doesn't then you'll never get i t
Jun 09 17:14:18 <muthu> s/i t/it/g
Jun 09 17:14:18 <infobot> muthu meant: if it doesn't then you'll never get it
Jun 09 17:14:25 <f00f-> goal has to be specific, else you won't know if you fulfill it
Jun 09 17:14:33 <f00f-> vagueness helps nobody
Jun 09 17:14:43 <muthu> f00f-: exactly
Jun 09 17:14:45 <Dougie187> lol. muthu, if your goal is too concrete or specific, you dont wont get it.
Jun 09 17:14:51 <Dougie187> Your goal can be to be happy.
Jun 09 17:14:54 <Dougie187> thats all you need.
Jun 09 17:15:02 <Dougie187> a goal is a goal. its all relative.
Jun 09 17:15:06 <muthu> Dougie187: then you are fooling yourself
Jun 09 17:15:09 <jasta> muthu: Do you know what semantics means?  I use the word a lot, and I wonder if you even know what it means.
Jun 09 17:15:26 <muthu> jasta: what's that? tell me
Jun 09 17:15:28 <jasta> If a word is not defined to mean something, then it doesn't.  You can't pretend that it does to you based on your current whim.
Jun 09 17:15:39 <Dougie187> muthu: you can buy your house in SF, but what if you dont have a job in SF. or if your family doesnt like the idea of moving to SF?
Jun 09 17:15:52 <jasta> If goal, as it is defined, does not specifically mean that it is a concrete purpose, then it ISNT a concrete purpose.
Jun 09 17:15:53 <muthu> Dougie187: how does that matter?
Jun 09 17:15:57 <muthu> i just stated my goal
Jun 09 17:16:04 <jasta> You presuming that it is makes you incomprehensible.
Jun 09 17:16:39 <muthu> once you know what you want, then you can get it
Jun 09 17:16:45 <Dougie187> also, him stating that he wanted to work with mobile application is a pretty  specific thing.
Jun 09 17:16:55 <muthu> looks like Dougie187 and jasta are not thinking that way
Jun 09 17:17:33 <Dougie187> he doesnt need to say, i want to work with motorola's mobile application division in SF on 35th Ave. and i want my office to be the 3rd one in the first hall on the right.
Jun 09 17:17:43 <Dougie187> he said what he would like to be doing, and thats a goal.
Jun 09 17:18:06 <Dougie187> My goal, is to get a Ph.D. in Computational Science in the next 4 years. and possibly move to Los Alamos, and work at that National Lab.
Jun 09 17:18:09 <Dougie187> something like that.
Jun 09 17:18:28 <jasta> muthu: what i'm telling you is that you don't get to define words however you please.  if you do, no one will be able to communicate with you meaningfully.
Jun 09 17:18:34 <muthu> Dougie187:  a good goal
Jun 09 17:18:46 <Dougie187> The word goal is relative.
Jun 09 17:18:54 <muthu> jasta: i just asked you about your goal
Jun 09 17:19:03 <muthu> you can tell me however you want
Jun 09 17:19:11 <Dougie187> lol, thats fine muthu, but then you basically told him his goal wasnt good enough for you.
Jun 09 17:19:11 <jasta> muthu: yes, and i gave you one.  you have this idea that goal means concrete, but the word does not mean this.
Jun 09 17:19:32 <jasta> and as i said, you can't make up the word's meaning to fit what you believe.  that will remove you from any meaningful conversation.
Jun 09 17:20:02 <muthu> (22:16:21)  jasta:  i'd like to go back to working on projects that the general public interacts with
Jun 09 17:20:08 <muthu> that's what you said is your goal
Jun 09 17:20:13 <jasta> so, before you start talking, open a dictionary and read it.  if you find that your idea was wrong about the word, then revise your argument accordingly.
Jun 09 17:20:24 <jasta> muthu: yes, and that is a goal, by definition.
Jun 09 17:20:25 <Dougie187> then he specified it more.
Jun 09 17:20:27 <Dougie187> when you asked him.
Jun 09 17:20:38 <cybereagle> i'd ay a goal is concrete, but does NOT haver to be highly specific. there is such a thing as a general goal. plus, the small irrelevant details may not form part of your goal, making it less specific and narrowly defines. this is not necessarily vagueness. in one sense, you could even argue it is more specific, as its target is a smaller aspect that could be achieved in many ways
Jun 09 17:20:45 <Dougie187> "(01:04:38 PM) jasta: well it's not hard to see that a specific interest of mine is in the mobile space, specifically Android."
Jun 09 17:20:48 <cybereagle> depending how things in the external world that you dont directly control affect it
Jun 09 17:20:57 <cybereagle> fluidity in a goal doesnt make it unconcrete necessarily
Jun 09 17:20:59 <cybereagle> or vague
Jun 09 17:21:19 <muthu> cybereagle: agree, a goal has to be concrete not necessarily higly specific
Jun 09 17:21:38 <cybereagle> which would imply that you and jasta dont disagree as much as you both think
Jun 09 17:21:39 <cybereagle> lol
Jun 09 17:21:44 <Dougie187> i disagree, and say a goal doesnt even have to be concrete.
Jun 09 17:21:57 <Dougie187> basically a goal is just an idea.
Jun 09 17:22:06 <Dougie187> its an idea of what you think at this moment would make you happy in the future.
Jun 09 17:22:09 <cybereagle> well give an example of what you mean by a non-concrete goal
Jun 09 17:22:10 <jasta> cybereagle: we can disagree to any arbitrary extent that he wishes, since he does not appreciate that words have meanings which he is not free to invent.
Jun 09 17:22:11 <Dougie187> something you would like to attian.
Jun 09 17:22:19 <Dougie187> so your goals can never be concrete, as they are just ideas.
Jun 09 17:22:41 <cybereagle> something can be general, loosely defined, and unspecific and still be concretye
Jun 09 17:23:03 <Dougie187> well goals are not concrete by definition.
Jun 09 17:23:07 <Dougie187> just think about it.
Jun 09 17:23:08 <muthu> Dougie187: you seem to state your goal well
Jun 09 17:23:11 <cybereagle> but thats just a definitions argument, in spirit i'd agree more with Dougie187 on this one
Jun 09 17:23:13 <Dougie187> if it was, your goals would never change.
Jun 09 17:23:22 <Dougie187> my goals have changed so many times in my life.
Jun 09 17:23:29 <muthu> but then looks like you really didn't think about it as a goal
Jun 09 17:23:36 <cybereagle> goals can change and still be concrete lol
Jun 09 17:23:42 <muthu> goals can change, always!
Jun 09 17:23:50 <Dougie187> lol, no they cant. that defeats the purpose of calling them concrete.
Jun 09 17:23:59 <cybereagle> what makes it concrete is that its an idea that exists
Jun 09 17:24:06 <cybereagle> it doesnt matter what the nature of the idea is
Jun 09 17:24:11 <cybereagle> its still something
Jun 09 17:24:27 <muthu> Dougie187: if your goal doesn't change.. you'll be doing your phd all your life
Jun 09 17:24:34 <jasta> i at least like to see cybereagle appreciating that this argument is, again, semantic.
Jun 09 17:24:44 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 09 17:25:00 <Dougie187> muthu: true. but if it changes before I attain it, i think it is not concrete
Jun 09 17:25:02 <cybereagle> concrete doesnt mean "hard and fixed", it just means "a real instance"
Jun 09 17:25:03 <jasta> muthu is going to fail to realize that time and time again as he argues.  here, or elsewhere.
Jun 09 17:25:24 <cybereagle> yeah its 99% semantic
Jun 09 17:25:27 <muthu> jasta: again, what's your goal?
Jun 09 17:25:32 <cybereagle> we all almost agree entirely lol
Jun 09 17:26:57 <Dougie187> well. all except on the goals needing to be specific. i would say
Jun 09 17:27:30 <cybereagle> yes, thats the real debate. the impresice semantics have lead us to discussing concreteness which isnt the point of contension i'd say
Jun 09 17:27:41 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 09 17:28:01 <cybereagle> the question seems to be, does a goal need to encompas everything about a real state of affairs in life, or can it just be aimed at some aspects and not others
Jun 09 17:28:09 <cybereagle> like, i want to be a pentester, but i dont mind where
Jun 09 17:28:19 <cybereagle> or, i want to be a pentester to company x in 3 months
Jun 09 17:28:29 <Dougie187> or even, you want to work with pens
Jun 09 17:28:37 <cybereagle> and i think both are "goals", just that some of us think one isnt a "good goal"
Jun 09 17:28:46 <jasta> ...arbitrarily
Jun 09 17:28:47 <jasta> ;)
Jun 09 17:28:49 <cybereagle> i meant penetration tester, not writing pens, but yeah :P
Jun 09 17:28:57 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 09 17:29:16 <jasta> it must be convenient for muthu to argue any point when he gets to arbitrarily invent what he and others mean.
Jun 09 17:29:43 <muthu> i think majority of us have agree here on what a goal is
Jun 09 17:29:49 <muthu> nore sure about jasta ;)
Jun 09 17:29:52 <cybereagle> well maybe, but maybe its just his way of trying to determine what everyone means, and what the best definition to use is
Jun 09 17:30:01 <Dougie187> lol i think im with jasta. personally
Jun 09 17:30:01 <cybereagle> its just a matter of debating style in many ways
Jun 09 17:30:28 <cybereagle> but i only just got here so i'll reserve judgement on that
Jun 09 17:30:29 <cybereagle> lol
Jun 09 17:30:35 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 09 17:30:38 <zhobbs_> my goal is to stay away from this conversation
Jun 09 17:30:46 <muthu> cybereagle: where were you until today?
Jun 09 17:30:51 <Dougie187> zhobbs you dont want to jump in?
Jun 09 17:31:01 <cybereagle> its still a lot better than the debates you might end up getting into in youtube comments or something lol
Jun 09 17:31:14 <cybereagle> "no wai i r totally right omg!!!"
Jun 09 17:31:18 <zhobbs_> hah
Jun 09 17:31:25 <Dougie187> we had another debate last week that didnt end up getting finished as far as i know.
Jun 09 17:31:26 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 09 17:31:36 <cybereagle> they rarely do on irc lol
Jun 09 17:31:51 <muthu> we are having some lively debates here
Jun 09 17:32:02 <Dougie187> it because we cant talk about android anymore
Jun 09 17:32:08 <jasta> basically :)
Jun 09 17:32:13 <jasta> although, i do still have my HTC Vogue
Jun 09 17:32:17 <jasta> i was gonna get USB working on it today
Jun 09 17:32:21 <jasta> and also install my crappy terminal
Jun 09 17:32:31 <cybereagle> my andriod project got stopped totaly in its racks by The Rest Of Life(tm)
Jun 09 17:32:35 <jasta> with USB, i believe i could make adb work easily
Jun 09 17:33:00 <Dougie187> i wish we would get our f'ing announcement.
Jun 09 17:33:04 <Dougie187> its like 2 weeks late now.
Jun 09 17:33:06 <zhobbs_> anyone else watching http://www.macrumorslive.com/ ?
Jun 09 17:33:13 <jasta> though the google folks are being decidedly vague on how adb connects to the device.  i believe i have figured it out by reading through the android-msm commit log :)
Jun 09 17:33:39 <jasta> i did not realize that android-msm is active, independent of releases.
Jun 09 17:33:51 <jasta> there is new code going in there every day
Jun 09 17:35:18 <dmoffett> zhobbs: Jobs keynote started?
Jun 09 17:35:41 <zhobbs_> dmoffett: yeah
Jun 09 17:35:50 <jasta> AttractiveApe: hey :)
Jun 09 17:35:56 <tethridge> listen live: http://www.iphonealley.com/news/wwdc-2008-keynote-live-audio-stream
Jun 09 17:36:24 <jasta> AttractiveApe: i'm going to try to load up the device with USB support at least, and hopefully tweak the SD controller driver to get it working on the MSM7X00
Jun 09 17:36:55 <AttractiveApe> morning all.
Jun 09 17:37:13 <jasta> AttractiveApe: http://git.android.com/?p=kernel.git;a=commit;h=383dacbcca52eb2b305e60170e85304cd8a76c55 -- i believe that commit can be trivially modified to work with the HTC Vogue
Jun 09 17:37:15 <AttractiveApe> hey jasta, did you work on it at all over the weekend?
Jun 09 17:37:20 <AttractiveApe> ah, nice.
Jun 09 17:37:24 <jasta> no, i only have a phone to test with when i'm at work hehe
Jun 09 17:38:25 <AttractiveApe> Oh, that makes a good amount of sense
Jun 09 17:38:44 <AttractiveApe> arg, sound is broken in ubuntu again, need a reboot.
Jun 09 17:38:44 <AttractiveApe> brb.
Jun 09 17:43:17 <AttractiveApe> yay sounds.
Jun 09 18:01:57 <zhobbs_> seems like the iphone apps that are being demoed are better than the best android apps I've seen
Jun 09 18:02:19 <zhobbs_> guess there's less motivation without the hardware (and without opengl)
Jun 09 18:03:02 <romainguy_> there's OpenGLon Android :)
Jun 09 18:03:14 <zhobbs_> not for us
Jun 09 18:03:25 <zhobbs_> opengl apps run very poorly
Jun 09 18:03:29 <zhobbs_> on emulator
Jun 09 18:03:48 <Dougie187> hey romainguy can you see if jasonchen has our announcement yet?
Jun 09 18:05:02 <dmoffett> Apple now has some kind of background processing.
Jun 09 18:05:06 <zhobbs_> interesting, "The wrong solution would be to allow for background processes -- bad for battery life and performance. Apple has come up with a far better solution -- a push notification service available for all developers."
Jun 09 18:05:49 <zhobbs_> what XMPP should have been
Jun 09 18:11:14 <romainguy_> Dougie187: what announcement?
Jun 09 18:11:29 <romainguy_> zhobbs: again, it depends on your machine, Quake runes just fine on my emulator
Jun 09 18:11:29 <Dougie187> about the sdk for everyone other then the adc winners.
Jun 09 18:11:33 <Dougie187> we wre supposed to get it two weeks ago
Jun 09 18:11:50 <romainguy_> Dougie187: It was never said you would get the SDK :)
Jun 09 18:11:59 <Dougie187> no. but he said we would get an announcement
Jun 09 18:12:03 <romainguy_> As long as there's no announcement on the Android blog, then there's no announcement
Jun 09 18:12:09 <Dougie187> stating what would happen and stuff like that.
Jun 09 18:12:20 <Dougie187> he said he was going to let us know what was going on, two weeks ago. before IO
Jun 09 18:12:20 <zhobbs_> romainguy_: quake runs on yours??  I can barely scroll a list on mine :)
Jun 09 18:12:24 <Dougie187> and he hasnt said anything
Jun 09 18:12:42 <romainguy_> zhobbs_: I told you, the emulator speed depends on your machine :))
Jun 09 18:12:44 <zhobbs_> I need to upgrade my PC I guess
Jun 09 18:14:32 <zhobbs_> Dougie187: don't hold your breath for the "announcement"
Jun 09 18:14:53 <Dougie187> im just frustrated, because he hasnt said anything about it.
Jun 09 18:39:33 <zhobbs_> 11:38 am	GPS support now integrated into the iPhone.
Jun 09 18:40:15 <Dougie187> cool
Jun 09 18:42:10 <AstainHellbring> about time is all I have to say
Jun 09 18:42:23 <zhobbs_> yep
Jun 09 18:42:34 <zhobbs_> android has a lot of catching up to do...
Jun 09 18:42:58 <AstainHellbring> not really
Jun 09 18:43:02 <dmoffett> GPS as well, about time.
Jun 09 18:43:11 <AstainHellbring> android will kick iphones ass
Jun 09 18:43:20 <tethridge> one day maybe
Jun 09 18:43:33 <tethridge> first you need an actual shipping phone
Jun 09 18:43:46 <AstainHellbring> lol yah that would help
Jun 09 18:43:53 <romainguy_> let us finish the software :p
Jun 09 18:43:58 <zhobbs_> I think it'll take android a little while to catch up
Jun 09 18:44:29 <tethridge> the exchange support will keep it ahead of android in the enterprise
Jun 09 18:44:36 <dmoffett> They are adding to the time to catch up by not releasing the sdk.
Jun 09 18:44:43 <zhobbs_> yeah, exchange support will probably take a while in android
Jun 09 18:44:49 <AstainHellbring> eh ppl like android enough they are already hacking it into real world phones
Jun 09 18:44:59 <jasta> tethridge: maybe not.  Microsoft just released all that documentation, promising Exchange ActiveSync docs this month
Jun 09 18:45:03 <AstainHellbring> I bet someone will have exchange support on android
Jun 09 18:45:17 <jasta> and also a license agreement that agrees to fully disclose patents and not sue open source projects
Jun 09 18:45:27 <AstainHellbring> very nice jasta
Jun 09 18:45:31 <jasta> so, implementing ActiveSync would be quite trivial with all that information
Jun 09 18:45:32 <tethridge> iphone now $199
Jun 09 18:45:44 <dmoffett> nice
Jun 09 18:45:53 <tethridge> 8gb model
Jun 09 18:45:58 <tethridge> $299 for 16
Jun 09 18:46:01 <AstainHellbring> I wonder if thats though apple or through carriers?
Jun 09 18:46:03 <zhobbs_> nice
Jun 09 18:46:14 <zhobbs_> AstainHellbring: with contract I would assume
Jun 09 18:46:47 <AstainHellbring> me as well
Jun 09 18:46:57 <tethridge> steve hasn't said yet
Jun 09 18:47:05 <AstainHellbring> but all will be seen when its for sale on apple store I guess
Jun 09 18:47:19 <zhobbs_> is it usually $200 more for no contract or something?
Jun 09 18:47:23 <dmoffett> aapl down -5.84
Jun 09 18:47:33 <AstainHellbring> july 11th release date for 3g iphone
Jun 09 18:47:34 <dmoffett> Guess investors want more.  :-)
Jun 09 18:47:58 <tethridge> his speech isn't over
Jun 09 18:48:16 <tethridge> he usually does the "one more thing"
Jun 09 18:48:39 <AstainHellbring> yep there always is the one more thing
Jun 09 18:48:49 <zhobbs_> hopefully 32 GB model...
Jun 09 18:49:31 <tethridge> there has to be a contract for the $199 or they won't be selling many ipod nanos
Jun 09 18:49:47 <AstainHellbring> itd be interesting if they do a upgrade path for current iphone users
Jun 09 18:50:12 <zhobbs_> AstainHellbring: free firmware upgrade for iPhone owners
Jun 09 18:50:40 <dmoffett> might be a tablet pc based on touch interface.
Jun 09 18:50:46 <tethridge> nope
Jun 09 18:50:49 <tethridge> it's over
Jun 09 18:50:54 <tethridge> no "one more thing"
Jun 09 18:51:00 <dmoffett> wow
Jun 09 18:51:08 <dmoffett> stock is goiing to taek a hit I thinkg.
Jun 09 18:51:35 <zhobbs_>  stock market is crazy...I think $199 is going to mean lots and lots and lots of phones being sold
Jun 09 18:52:00 <dmoffett> yep
Jun 09 18:52:26 <dmoffett> At that price I will replace my current one.
Jun 09 18:52:33 <dmoffett> Just for the GPS.
Jun 09 18:52:35 <zhobbs_> I might have to get one
Jun 09 18:52:53 <zhobbs_> will pay extra for no contract though
Jun 09 18:53:40 <AstainHellbring> wow no and one more thing
Jun 09 18:54:59 <zhobbs_> I'm kinda surprised about the GPS support, that's pretty cool
Jun 09 18:55:25 <dmoffett> I think Apple has left the door open for Android.  Nothing really "big" announced.  Now Google can announce the new kick ass GPHone.
Jun 09 18:56:40 <zhobbs_> dmoffett: would be nice if we knew something (mfg, carrier)
Jun 09 18:57:05 <dmoffett> yep
Jun 09 18:57:12 <dmoffett> Looking forward to some news.
Jun 09 18:57:17 <AstainHellbring> yah that was lame
Jun 09 18:57:20 <Dougie187> well you have two carriers.
Jun 09 18:57:20 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 09 18:57:33 <Dougie187> take you pick
Jun 09 19:05:30 <jasta> i am hoping i dont have to change carriers for Android.  i'd like to be able to unlock the t-mobile phone
Jun 09 19:06:08 <Dougie187> what carrier do you have?
Jun 09 19:06:11 <jasta> AT&T
Jun 09 19:07:21 <Dougie187> we shall see.
Jun 09 19:07:38 <Dougie187> you could always switch to sprint
Jun 09 19:07:38 <jasta> i would be willing to switch for Android, though
Jun 09 19:08:35 <trigatch4> jasta: t-mobile already said they would have an android phone by the end of 2008
Jun 09 19:08:39 <f00f-> oh, renewed interest in anrdoid jasta? ;)
Jun 09 19:08:39 <Dougie187> but would you go with sprint or tmobile?
Jun 09 19:08:52 <trigatch4> iphone 3g gayness just wrapped up
Jun 09 19:08:55 <Dougie187> lol his interest never left.
Jun 09 19:09:49 <jasta> f00f-: no, i never said i was going to avoid Android now.
Jun 09 19:10:02 <jasta> when it comes out, i still intend to embrace it.  i'm just pissed that they are being asshats about it.
Jun 09 19:18:03 <AttractiveApe> any luck jasta?
Jun 09 19:19:33 <jasta> i'm getting the toolchain up to compile the kernel on this machine
Jun 09 19:19:40 <jasta> it's a big download and my link is not that great
Jun 09 19:21:41 <AttractiveApe> ah, k
Jun 09 19:36:30 <jasta> hmm, neat, adb.c
Jun 09 19:39:44 <jasta> alright, building this crap
Jun 09 19:41:23 <romainguy_> adb.c?
Jun 09 19:42:00 <jasta> the USB function driver for adb
Jun 09 19:42:12 <jasta> exploring the git repository to get USB support up on the htc vogue board
Jun 09 19:42:56 <Dougie187> hey romainguy_ how come your like the only google guy who hangs out in here for the most part?
Jun 09 19:43:08 <romainguy_> Dougie187: because we're busy? :)
Jun 09 21:29:33 <AttractiveApe> anymore progress jasta?
Jun 09 21:35:33 <jasta> lame, kernel panic'd with this code on
Jun 09 21:35:41 <jasta> i'm not surprised, since martin commented it out :)
Jun 09 21:37:38 <AttractiveApe> did martin allude to what he was working on for the next 'release'?
Jun 09 21:50:11 <jasta> AttractiveApe: yeah, he said he would be focusing on the SD controller support
Jun 09 21:50:17 <jasta> but that wouldnt be for a few weeks
Jun 09 21:50:45 <jasta> the amount of work he has done so far is staggering.  i am curious what his dev set up looks like to have figured all this out
Jun 09 21:51:33 <AttractiveApe> jasta: not saying what he has done is minor :p
Jun 09 21:53:05 <jasta> i was just commenting that i'd like to know how he figured all this out
Jun 09 21:53:18 <jasta> i know that haret can be very useful here, i just dont know how to use it effectively i guess
Jun 09 21:53:48 <jasta> i'd like to pick his brain on what to do to get USB working
Jun 09 22:09:45 <romainguy_> zhobbs: check out the adc2 mailing list
Jun 09 22:30:44 <tomgibara> Does anyone think that server-push is an effective substitute for application defined background tasks?
Jun 09 22:31:43 <zhobbs> in some cases it's more useful...but there are times you need background tasks
Jun 09 22:32:10 <zhobbs> I wish android had a better way to push
Jun 09 22:33:28 <tomgibara> Assuming the system provides OS level support for background downloading/alarms/location (ie. system provided services). What application would need background tasks, and what for?
Jun 09 22:34:16 <zhobbs> hmm, maybe an rss app?
Jun 09 22:34:57 <tomgibara> An RSS app could use an alarm service, or push from an aggregating web service.
Jun 09 22:35:34 <zhobbs> yeah.  does iphone have alarm services?
Jun 09 22:35:46 <tomgibara> I don't know
Jun 09 22:35:52 <tomgibara> I would expect so
Jun 09 22:36:27 <zhobbs> well an alarm service would have to launch a background task or else it would be pretty annoying
Jun 09 22:37:23 <tomgibara> Yes, good point.
Jun 09 22:38:28 <zhobbs> but I see what you mean, alarm service + push covers mostly everything
Jun 09 22:38:51 <tomgibara> Though, the alarm service on the iPhone (which I understand from what I read does not support background application processes) could invoke an application, and that application could choose not to 'launch'
Jun 09 22:39:35 <zhobbs> can that application stay in that state forever?
Jun 09 22:39:57 <tomgibara> There is certainly value (in terms of providing smooth operation) in applications not being shutdown on each application transition.
Jun 09 22:40:51 <tomgibara> No, I was thinking that the application would launch (eg. in response to an RSS update), update its state, and then just close, without interrupting the user.
Jun 09 22:42:11 <tomgibara> Anyway, I'm talking from a position of almost total ignorance regarding the iPhone.
Jun 09 22:42:16 <zhobbs> well, I use a service to play media...which makes sense because you want your songs to continue to play when you're doing other stuff
Jun 09 22:43:16 <tomgibara> That could be provided by the application framework too, but its a good example
Jun 09 22:43:20 <zhobbs> but I am not looking forward to apps with services sitting around polling websites, etc
Jun 09 22:44:04 <tomgibara> Any app you wanted to write that (eg) varied the playback based on time/location/motion etc. would be impossible
Jun 09 22:44:20 <tomgibara> - impossible without background processing
Jun 09 22:45:05 <zhobbs> yeah, something like PocketJourney could use a service to automatically play narration based on location
Jun 09 22:45:56 <tomgibara> Unless, an event framework is available to launch applications when location changes.
Jun 09 22:46:18 <zhobbs> there is I think...
Jun 09 22:47:08 <zhobbs> http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/location/LocationManager.html#addProximityAlert(double, double, float, long, android.content.Intent)
Jun 09 22:47:32 <tomgibara> I was thinking of the iPhone not neededing background app processes
Jun 09 22:47:53 <zhobbs> yeah, I actually think not having them isn't all bad
Jun 09 22:48:16 <dmoffett> I am pretty sure you can't have back ground tasks on iPhone but I am still learning the api.
Jun 09 22:48:20 <zhobbs> it's better for the "dummy" user who can't figure out why their battery last 2 hours
Jun 09 22:48:48 <tomgibara> As ever, it's a trade-off - I suppose the iPhone is ensuring that the common cases are covered, rarer cases become more costly (in terms of development and power etc.)
Jun 09 22:49:08 <tomgibara> The danger is always that you misjudge the "common case"
Jun 09 22:49:52 <tomgibara> It is something that has struck me as something that is distinctly missing in the Android APIs...
Jun 09 22:50:09 <zhobbs> tomgibara: push api?
Jun 09 22:50:27 <tomgibara> ...a service that allows you to download data from a URL at 'approximate' intervals or after an 'approximate' delay
Jun 09 22:50:56 <zhobbs> just use an alarm?
Jun 09 22:51:12 <dmoffett> A constant on feature with out running the battery down is a tough problem.
Jun 09 22:51:43 <tomgibara> I'm not knowledgable about mobile development, but it seems to me that switching on the radio to perform intermittent downloads is something that is best aggregated
Jun 09 22:52:17 <dmoffett> http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/06/09/iphone.push.notification/
Jun 09 22:52:37 <zhobbs> Ahh, I see what you mean
Jun 09 22:52:48 <tomgibara> eg. an RSS feed wants to download the latest news items, a calendar app wants to monitor for new appointments. They should be able to 'share' the radio for network polling
Jun 09 22:53:07 <zhobbs> hmm, you mean just because you have to wake the phone up?
Jun 09 22:53:13 <dmoffett> If the app can maintain a connection without killing the battery will solve a lot of these cases.
Jun 09 22:53:38 <tomgibara> because you need to wake-up the radio and the processor
Jun 09 22:54:01 <zhobbs> I would only think that would affect battery if the phone was in a sleep mode
Jun 09 22:54:11 <zhobbs> which I guess it might go into very quickly
Jun 09 22:54:33 <tomgibara> I am assuming (in ignorance) that the radio chipsets and subsystems are most efficient when used continuously for periods of time, and not switched-on/off all the time
Jun 09 22:54:59 <zhobbs> hmm, I would think it wouldn't matter...but I'm also ignorant :)
Jun 09 22:55:30 <dmoffett> How does sms perform that functionality?
Jun 09 22:55:50 <zhobbs> it's gotta be "push"
Jun 09 22:56:08 <tomgibara> I think that the phone periodically communicates with the nearby base stations
Jun 09 22:56:25 <tomgibara> It needs to do this because the phone may have moved
Jun 09 22:56:30 <zhobbs> riht
Jun 09 22:56:35 <zhobbs> right
Jun 09 22:56:45 <tomgibara> I think SMS piggybacks onto this network management traffic
Jun 09 22:57:45 <tomgibara> Accessing the 3G network (again I assume) would use a different chipset and different frequencies etc.
Jun 09 22:58:29 <zhobbs> tomgibara: are you working on any phase 2 apps?  I thought I heard you were working on cooking capsules some?
Jun 09 22:59:08 <tomgibara> zhobbs: yes some, not much yet
Jun 09 23:01:19 <dmoffett> So xmpp will not provide some kind of push functionality?
Jun 09 23:01:27 <zhobbs> gtalk can
Jun 09 23:01:39 <zhobbs> sounds like they may bring xmpp back
Jun 09 23:01:49 <zhobbs> but not for version 1
Jun 09 23:01:59 <AttractiveApe> I thought the chat part of gtalk was xmpp?
Jun 09 23:02:04 <AttractiveApe> Or are they moving to a new system?
Jun 09 23:02:46 <AttractiveApe> jasta: did you write that terminal app, by the way?
Jun 09 23:02:46 <dmoffett> Didn't know xmpp went away.
Jun 09 23:02:57 <zhobbs> dmoffett: yeah, xmpp is gone, it's gtalk now
Jun 09 23:03:13 <zhobbs> in the fireside chat they said they wanted xmpp but couldn't get the security issues worked out
Jun 09 23:03:27 <f00f-> what security issues?
Jun 09 23:03:32 <tomgibara> zhobbs: did they elaborate?
Jun 09 23:03:44 <zhobbs> f00f-: don't know
Jun 09 23:03:45 <f00f-> xmpp.net has certification for federated xmpp
Jun 09 23:04:03 <f00f-> okay, well xmpp is bulky over the phone
Jun 09 23:04:13 <f00f-> i'm looking forward to an open binary protocol
Jun 09 23:04:46 <zhobbs> yeah, I don't want to be dependent on gtalk
Jun 09 23:04:52 <tomgibara> f00f: an open binary protocol for what?
Jun 09 23:04:58 <f00f-> xmpp
Jun 09 23:05:19 <dmoffett> json is much smaller than xml and not freaking binary.
Jun 09 23:05:50 <f00f-> binary would be best for performance
Jun 09 23:06:09 <f00f-> it needs to be structured so that you can send arbitrary xml stanzas and not need a huge parser
Jun 09 23:06:09 <dmoffett> foof: I think you like pain.  :-)
Jun 09 23:06:25 <f00f-> i like speed, but sometimes it cames at a pain :)
Jun 09 23:06:38 <tomgibara> If you have the toolchain, binary is just as human readable as ASCII
Jun 09 23:06:50 <tomgibara> What's plain text after all?
Jun 09 23:07:52 <f00f-> 7 or 8 bits, depending who you ask, of hell :P
Jun 09 23:07:53 <dmoffett> Guess f00f is bringing back nightmares of mainframe binary formats I had to deal with at MCI.  Sorry I was having flashbacks.
Jun 09 23:08:01 <f00f-> hahaha
Jun 09 23:08:21 <f00f-> well, i'm just saying XMPP is pretty verbose over the wire
Jun 09 23:08:31 <f00f-> JSON is better, but we can go a bit further too :P
Jun 09 23:08:35 <tomgibara> I designed and implemented a binary XML format for a system once
Jun 09 23:08:58 <dmoffett> fixed field formats with endian conversions.  Very painful.
Jun 09 23:09:02 <f00f-> tomgibara: me too. you can really optimize binary XML by storing a lot of semantics in the binary stream, making it easier to serialize and deserialize
Jun 09 23:09:17 <tomgibara> It was for unstructured XML, it put the work on the delivery side, so the stream was small and fast to parse
Jun 09 23:09:54 <tomgibara> Eg. on writing, it maintained a lookup table of element/attr names to compress the stream
Jun 09 23:10:12 <f00f-> yup, and likewise on receiving side
Jun 09 23:10:16 <f00f-> it built up a LUT
Jun 09 23:10:24 <tomgibara> the name was sent the first time and had a code appended, then was referred to by the code thereafter
Jun 09 23:10:40 <f00f-> yeah, maybe we worked on something similar ;)
Jun 09 23:11:03 <tomgibara> String lengths were prepended to the stream Pascal style, so that the receiver could allocate memory efficiently
Jun 09 23:11:18 <dmoffett> f00f could you use compression to achieve the efficiency?
Jun 09 23:11:42 <f00f-> dmoffett: yes definitely, but for mobile it adds some CPU overhead, not sure how much
Jun 09 23:11:52 <tomgibara> f00f: Yep, nice to someone else has validated your design :-)
Jun 09 23:12:00 <f00f-> :D
Jun 09 23:12:42 <tomgibara> dmoffett: the key thing about the approach is that you are taking advantage of redundant structure present in the XML format itself
Jun 09 23:13:02 <tomgibara> It means that you get very "cheap" compression
Jun 09 23:13:07 <dmoffett> I see.
Jun 09 23:13:10 <dmoffett> Cool
Jun 09 23:13:32 <tomgibara> It's not optimal, but fast, and leaves the client with very little parsing to do.
Jun 09 23:14:27 <dmoffett> I will have to revisit binary messaging.
Jun 09 23:15:46 <dmoffett> Mobile development is a whole different beast.
Jun 09 23:16:12 <tomgibara> This is a wire protocol that I haven't completed the first implementation of: http://www.tomgibara.com/projects/fledge/fledge-serial.pdf
Jun 09 23:16:26 <tomgibara> mostly because of moseycode :-/
Jun 09 23:26:12 <dmoffett> Can't say I understand completely but if it works then cool.
Jun 09 23:27:22 <tomgibara> I didn't even expect anyone to read it :-)
Jun 09 23:27:39 <tomgibara> Basically, it provides a very compact encoding
Jun 09 23:27:53 <dmoffett> I read bits but I specifically looking for how you handly endian issues.
Jun 09 23:28:19 <tomgibara> And it's flexible about how much of the structure of the message is sent
Jun 09 23:28:36 <dmoffett> Java to java I guess endian is not a problem?
Jun 09 23:29:49 <tomgibara> haha - A silly ommission: it's big endian
Jun 09 23:30:32 <tomgibara> Java's the target, but the serialization is language agnostic
Jun 09 23:34:27 <dmoffett> Cool
Jun 10 02:25:06 <alex211> hi there
Jun 10 02:25:20 <alex211> anyone knows how to port a javaeME app to Android ?
Jun 10 02:25:40 <alex211> I know there is this app called ME4Android, but theres no way I can find some help
Jun 10 02:31:41 <dmoffett> you might ask during the working day US time when more people are active.
Jun 10 02:32:13 <dmoffett> I have seen some j2me developers contribute to the conversation.
Jun 10 02:32:32 <dmoffett> Meanwhile "
Jun 10 02:33:06 <dmoffett> Meanwhile "if 6 were 9"
Jun 10 02:36:45 <alex211> allright thx
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jun 10 02:59:56 2008