**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jun 10 02:59:56 2008
Jun 10 05:06:44 <gambler> where are the bouncy castle classes in android
Jun 10 05:14:37 <blaked> any developers extremely familiar with the android sdk PM me
Jun 10 05:14:55 <blaked> im looking for developers for a rather simple but large scale project
Jun 10 05:15:35 <AttractiveApe> Why not just tell people what you're wanting here?
Jun 10 05:15:56 <blaked> without going into specifics
Jun 10 05:16:02 <AttractiveApe> Seeing that android isn't released, and that this is probably a dev channel, that would seem like the best course of action.
Jun 10 05:16:33 <blaked> gps would be a main aspect of the application
Jun 10 05:17:04 <blaked> i can't go into specifics right now
Jun 10 05:17:16 <AttractiveApe> The current public elease of the android sdk doesn't have the gps api implemented.
Jun 10 06:33:12 <foo> markf: ping
Jun 10 07:32:33 <jscinoz> hmm
Jun 10 07:32:43 <jscinoz> just wondering
Jun 10 07:33:07 <jscinoz> with this Dalvik VM, does android basically need apps to be made specially for it?
Jun 10 07:33:25 <jscinoz> unlike openmoko where its a standard X server and most things *should* work with a recompile (hardware permitting)
Jun 10 07:33:58 <jasta> jscinoz: yes, it requires apps specifically compiled to the bytecode.
Jun 10 07:34:07 <jscinoz> >_<
Jun 10 07:34:12 <jasta> provided tools translate java bytecote to it
Jun 10 07:34:19 <jscinoz> hmm
Jun 10 07:34:27 <jasta> given the platform, though, it would be possible to add support for other languages later
Jun 10 07:34:30 <jasta> not now, since source is unavailable
Jun 10 07:34:39 <jscinoz> i'm gonna get me a htc touch pro when it comes out and put either android or openmoko on it
Jun 10 07:34:55 <jasta> why do you think you will be able to put either on it?  do you know that it is fully supported under linux?
Jun 10 07:34:59 <jscinoz> I realise
Jun 10 07:35:27 <jscinoz> i don't mind so much about things not working I use an n95 as my main phone it'll probably just be for testing
Jun 10 07:35:35 <alex133> Does anyone know how to port a J2ME app to the Android platform ?
Jun 10 07:35:43 <jasta> what if nothing works?  like the touch screen?
Jun 10 07:35:48 <jscinoz> and there's a linux distro for HTC phones already existing called xanadux so it cant be too hard to get openmoko working
Jun 10 07:35:53 <jasta> alex133: yes, by porting a J2ME app to the android platform.
Jun 10 07:36:08 <jscinoz> jasta I'll figure something out, I've fair experience in driver development
Jun 10 07:36:14 <jasta> jscinoz: You should research this furtehr.  You are confusing a distro with drivers.
Jun 10 07:36:14 <alex133> hehe thx, I meant not to have to change any line of code
Jun 10 07:36:24 <alex133> like an emulator or something
Jun 10 07:36:25 <jasta> alex133: that's not porting.
Jun 10 07:36:40 <jscinoz> jasta, Agreed, its purely hypothetical at the moment, since neither the hardware nor software is out right now :P
Jun 10 07:36:45 <alex133> whats the real definition of porting then ?
Jun 10 07:37:29 <jscinoz> alex133, recoding something so its native to a platform
Jun 10 07:37:43 <jscinoz> ie what icculous did with quake 3
Jun 10 07:37:53 <jscinoz> or however the hell he spells that tag
Jun 10 07:38:01 <alex133> allright so it means rewriting some of the application (at least the user interface) right ?
Jun 10 07:38:12 <jscinoz> most likely
Jun 10 07:38:15 <jasta> bed time
Jun 10 07:38:21 <jasta> night folks
Jun 10 07:38:23 <jscinoz> night jasta
Jun 10 07:39:02 <alex133> k, so lets say I dont wanna port but just emulate a J2ME app on Android, how would u guys do ?
Jun 10 07:39:24 <alex133> cuz my boss is asking to port a J2ME app on Android but I have to keep the same interfq
Jun 10 07:39:29 <jscinoz> Not sure, i've never really played around much with android yet
Jun 10 07:39:34 <alex133> the same interfaces that the J2ME app, its so twisted
Jun 10 07:39:43 <jscinoz> there could be something useful in the SDK documentation
Jun 10 07:39:46 <jscinoz> not sure though
Jun 10 07:40:27 <jscinoz> sorry i couldn't be of more help
Jun 10 07:40:52 <alex133> its okay thank you !
Jun 10 07:40:58 <jscinoz> :)
Jun 10 07:41:22 <alex133> by any chance do u know any company that does porting for a business ?
Jun 10 07:42:02 <jscinoz> unfortunately no :(
Jun 10 07:42:55 <jasta> alex133: if the interface is trivial, just fork the code and reimplement it on Android.
Jun 10 07:43:05 <jasta> you don't want to copy the interface semantics exactly anyway, since J2ME is crippled.
Jun 10 07:43:34 <jasta> i didn't fork as in copy it.  rather, just branch off those parts of the code.
Jun 10 07:44:48 <jasta> ok, night for real now
Jun 10 07:45:31 <alex133> ok thx fot the advice, thats what I told to my boss....
Jun 10 08:39:47 <alex133> any j2me developer here ?
Jun 10 09:38:59 <gambler> what is the status of debugging on android...can eclipse be used for breakpoints etc
Jun 10 09:39:22 <gambler> <--- newbie eclipse/android person
Jun 10 09:45:34 <gambler> amazing that the first program ive written seems to have killed everything
Jun 10 12:27:05 <Dvyjones> I get the error "the import android cannot be resolved" when trying to create a android project (or rather, when trying to run it)
Jun 10 12:47:48 <Dougie187> Good Morning
Jun 10 12:53:58 <buster_> Dvyjones: did you configure the sdk in the prefernces?
Jun 10 16:22:13 <jasta> yawn
Jun 10 16:22:25 <muthu> big yawn
Jun 10 16:22:37 <romainguy__> ><
Jun 10 16:22:51 <muthu> 0_o
Jun 10 16:23:55 <muthu> jasta: any major iphone news?
Jun 10 16:24:04 <jasta> why wouldi have iphone news?
Jun 10 16:24:20 <muthu> you are the mobile guru!
Jun 10 16:24:33 <jasta> i am?
Jun 10 16:24:36 <muthu> haha
Jun 10 16:24:41 <muthu> i thought so
Jun 10 16:25:21 <jasta> i dont know anything about the iphone, so...
Jun 10 16:25:29 <michaelnovakjr__> iphone sucks!
Jun 10 16:25:33 <muthu> there's this wwdc going on
Jun 10 16:25:44 <muthu> SJ might have pulled some stunts
Jun 10 16:25:57 <michaelnovakjr__> apple sucks
Jun 10 16:25:57 <jasta> right now i'm trying to figure out a way to debug the code i wrote over the past couple of days without actually owning the phone :)
Jun 10 16:26:02 <jasta> i might just have to buy one.
Jun 10 16:26:13 <jasta> well, my friend was on stage at WWDC, that was neat.
Jun 10 16:26:53 <muthu> jasta: who?
Jun 10 16:27:17 <muthu> jasta has high profile friends in google and apple ;)
Jun 10 16:27:25 <jasta> James Howard, demoing Loopt
Jun 10 16:27:49 <michaelnovakjr__> why do we care about apple again?  have they done something special?
Jun 10 16:28:01 <muthu> oh yeah, loopt
Jun 10 16:28:18 <muthu> michaelnovakjr__: that's what i'm trying to figure out
Jun 10 16:28:26 <jasta> i personally don't care what apple does.
Jun 10 16:28:36 <michaelnovakjr__> they annoy me now
Jun 10 16:28:47 <muthu> good they are feeling the heat
Jun 10 16:29:08 <muthu> from android, and now are adding some much needed functionalities like GPS
Jun 10 16:29:31 <michaelnovakjr__> i dont think its android specifically
Jun 10 16:29:45 <muthu> what else?
Jun 10 16:29:47 <michaelnovakjr__> gps is in blackberries and they have devices already :)
Jun 10 16:29:55 <michaelnovakjr__> and that is what apple is after
Jun 10 16:30:04 <michaelnovakjr__> i really don't think they care about android
Jun 10 16:30:11 <michaelnovakjr__> they want enterprise
Jun 10 16:30:17 <michaelnovakjr__> and that is blackberry
Jun 10 16:30:29 <muthu> they would want consumers too
Jun 10 16:30:36 <michaelnovakjr__> consumers are easy
Jun 10 16:30:42 <michaelnovakjr__> flashy gets you that
Jun 10 16:30:47 <michaelnovakjr__> enterprise is a different beast
Jun 10 16:30:57 <muthu> android would be perfect for enterprise
Jun 10 16:31:10 <michaelnovakjr__> in what sense?
Jun 10 16:31:18 <muthu> gmail + gdocs
Jun 10 16:31:29 <michaelnovakjr__> ::outlook::
Jun 10 16:31:34 <michaelnovakjr__> ::exchange server::
Jun 10 16:32:11 <michaelnovakjr__> i am not disagreeing
Jun 10 16:32:34 <michaelnovakjr__> just providing some not some high up in the cloud responses to the android platform
Jun 10 16:32:35 <jasta> once the activesync protocol is documented, i will personally look into implementing it on android.
Jun 10 16:33:14 <michaelnovakjr__> zimbra is where it is at
Jun 10 16:33:33 <michaelnovakjr__> zimbra on android would be killer for enterprise
Jun 10 16:33:35 <muthu> so no major feature steve jobs announced?
Jun 10 16:34:02 <michaelnovakjr__> dude.... 3G iPhone??
Jun 10 16:34:54 <muthu> so that's it?
Jun 10 16:35:02 <michaelnovakjr__> that is a big deal
Jun 10 16:35:23 <michaelnovakjr__> whatever snow leopard is
Jun 10 16:35:33 <dmoffett> This is worth paying attention to:
Jun 10 16:35:34 <dmoffett> http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/06/09/iphone.push.notification/
Jun 10 16:35:54 <michaelnovakjr__> that is a bullshit workaround
Jun 10 16:36:14 <dmoffett> Not sure if it is a good idea but they are not standing still.
Jun 10 16:36:21 <dmoffett> Could be.
Jun 10 16:36:24 <dmoffett> Not sure yet.
Jun 10 16:36:35 <muthu> sj is bullshitting on this one
Jun 10 16:36:45 <dmoffett> How so?
Jun 10 16:36:59 <michaelnovakjr__> forstall actually presented
Jun 10 16:37:11 <muthu> that's one way of covering up why iphone don't do background services so far
Jun 10 16:37:30 <michaelnovakjr__> apparently they don't have a kernel worth using if it can't handle cpu cycles and battery life
Jun 10 16:37:57 <muthu> how's the application maintaining internet connection?
Jun 10 16:38:05 <michaelnovakjr__> magic pixie dusty
Jun 10 16:38:08 <michaelnovakjr__> dust*
Jun 10 16:38:45 <michaelnovakjr__> hey jasta
Jun 10 16:38:49 <dmoffett> " technology will be seeded to developers in July"
Jun 10 16:39:09 <dmoffett> from the article.
Jun 10 16:39:14 <michaelnovakjr__> i used to be an apple developer member, realized what a waste it was
Jun 10 16:40:15 <dmoffett> I much prefer the open source Android to the iPhone.
Jun 10 16:40:40 <michaelnovakjr__> just as i prefer linux to mac os x
Jun 10 16:40:59 <dmoffett> However the iPhone is not a joke and worth watching for a number of reason.
Jun 10 16:41:20 <dmoffett> linux is better than OSX in some respects.
Jun 10 16:41:41 <michaelnovakjr__> apple === microsoft
Jun 10 16:42:10 <michaelnovakjr__> DRM iTunes must die!!
Jun 10 16:43:00 <dmoffett> I think you are preaching to the choir.
Jun 10 16:43:06 <michaelnovakjr__> :)
Jun 10 16:43:28 <dmoffett> Fights can be had on Apple lists.
Jun 10 16:43:44 <michaelnovakjr__> anyone other than jasta running android on an htc phone?
Jun 10 16:44:31 <donomo> i will if someone mails me an HTC phone :)
Jun 10 16:44:37 <dmoffett> anyone have a good solution to pushing to Android.  I could sure use a solution.  I thought xmpp would do it for me.
Jun 10 16:45:35 <dmoffett> Apparently xmpp has been dropped from Android.
Jun 10 16:47:27 <Dvyjones1> I get the error "the import android cannot be resolved" when trying to run an android project
Jun 10 16:48:32 <Dvyjones1> Anyone here that has run android on HTC P3470 / Pharos (same chipset as Touch / Elf I think)?
Jun 10 16:48:43 <jasta> dmoffett: gtalk is how.
Jun 10 16:49:07 <dmoffett> I thought gtalk was xmpp?
Jun 10 16:50:08 <dmoffett> What are the implications of having a gtalk connection always on?
Jun 10 16:50:31 <Dvyjones1> battery power?
Jun 10 16:50:46 <jasta> unknown.  perhaps not much if they implement it with particular care for the mobile data network.
Jun 10 16:50:51 <dmoffett> Trying to avoid polling since that would seem evil.
Jun 10 16:51:11 <jasta> google is clearly setting GTalk up to be used for signaling and device-to-device communication.
Jun 10 16:51:38 <jasta> unfortunately, they haven't revealed this strategy officially, and i don't think it's even workable until they do.
Jun 10 16:52:05 <dmoffett> Could Google build it or would it be up the carriers?
Jun 10 16:52:19 <jasta> google would and has built this.
Jun 10 16:53:01 <jasta> if you tinker in the dev settings, you will find that XMPP configuration is global, and can be toggled to connect at boot.
Jun 10 16:53:23 <dmoffett> Cool, another item I guess will come in time.
Jun 10 16:53:28 <jasta> but what they mean by xmpp is GTalk, which they have said will later be a compact, efficient binary protocol particular to android devices.
Jun 10 16:53:56 <jasta> (probably just a compacted XML document)
Jun 10 16:54:12 <AttractiveApe> jasta: any luck with that terminal apk?
Jun 10 16:54:24 <michaelnovakjr__> i setup the HTC with android
Jun 10 16:54:38 <jasta> AttractiveApe: no, i haven't been working in that area yet.
Jun 10 16:54:44 <jasta> i'm working on getting USB up instead.
Jun 10 16:55:06 <jasta> USB would be the most useful thing to make work, as i could conceivably run adb shell.
Jun 10 16:55:07 <michaelnovakjr__> any reason windows mobile is the bootloader?
Jun 10 16:55:24 <AttractiveApe> michaelnovakjr__: because it's shipped as a windows mobile phone?
Jun 10 16:55:59 <AttractiveApe> jasta: okay, cool :)
Jun 10 16:56:08 <michaelnovakjr__> obviously... but windows mobile sucks battery life!
Jun 10 17:01:30 <Dvyjones> Is it normal that the first run on the emulator is really slow?
Jun 10 17:01:52 <michaelnovakjr__> ?
Jun 10 17:02:02 <Dvyjones> the red bar bounces forth and back
Jun 10 17:02:08 <romainguy__> yes it's normal
Jun 10 17:02:13 <Dvyjones> k
Jun 10 17:03:55 <jasta> AttractiveApe: but it's being a bitch.  the kernel won't even boot with USB enabled :)
Jun 10 17:04:08 <jasta> i am trying to get a better dev env set up to debug this stuff
Jun 10 17:04:12 <jasta> setting up haretconsole and stuff
Jun 10 17:13:02 <Dougie187> Good Afternoon
Jun 10 17:38:46 <Dvyjones> Good afternoon Dougie187
Jun 10 17:41:37 * borism is on android n810 now, thanks to http://www.alextreme.org/drupal//?q=android_on_n810
Jun 10 17:42:04 <borism> now what? where do I get those wonderful apps?
Jun 10 17:45:27 <jasta> you mean all the wonderful apps that nobody released source code or binaries for?
Jun 10 17:45:36 <borism> :)
Jun 10 17:45:58 <jasta> you can build mine if you'd like: http://five.googlecode.com
Jun 10 17:46:28 <jasta> borism: if you're curious, the HTC Vogue can also run Android currently and has a working telephony layer up too
Jun 10 17:46:42 <jasta> i'm working on adding USB support, though i didn't do any of the original work
Jun 10 17:46:44 <jasta> just building from that
Jun 10 17:46:54 <jasta> with USB, i could meaningfully debug apps and explore the phone
Jun 10 17:54:51 <davidw> heh, Innsbruck is soccer-crazy
Jun 10 17:55:01 <borism> this userspace I've got isn't of much use besides browsing the web
Jun 10 17:55:08 <squeakypants> hey
Jun 10 17:55:41 <borism> google should provide prebuilt images for few devices that are more or less supported now
Jun 10 17:55:42 <squeakypants> if i want to use eclipse for android, which should i download?
Jun 10 17:55:53 <Dougie187> what are your choices?
Jun 10 17:56:00 <squeakypants> http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/
Jun 10 17:56:08 <squeakypants> java, java ee, c/c++, classic
Jun 10 17:56:09 <Dougie187> on windows?
Jun 10 17:56:12 <squeakypants> yeah
Jun 10 17:56:36 <Dougie187> i think you just need java
Jun 10 17:56:42 <borism> any will do, you'll just have to download extensions
Jun 10 17:56:56 <squeakypants> well can the java version do c++ and vice versa?
Jun 10 17:57:03 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 10 17:57:05 <Dougie187> they are all plugins
Jun 10 17:57:09 <jasta> squeakypants: Only Java development is supported officially on Android.
Jun 10 17:57:10 <squeakypants> borism: yeah, i also plan on using python with it :)
Jun 10 17:57:18 <Dougie187> you will have to install the c++ into eclipse
Jun 10 17:57:18 <squeakypants> jasta: yeah.. i've read :(
Jun 10 17:57:29 <squeakypants> mmk, i'll get the java version then
Jun 10 17:57:30 <squeakypants> thx
Jun 10 17:59:23 <squeakypants> heh, so why did they choose to use dalvik?
Jun 10 18:03:16 <jasta> squeakypants: a number of reasons.  performance and licensing mostly.
Jun 10 18:12:05 <squeakypants> jasta: why not allow c++ though?
Jun 10 18:12:32 <zhobbs_> squeakypants: not as portable
Jun 10 18:12:50 <squeakypants> what do you mean?
Jun 10 18:13:15 <zhobbs_> some phones might be arm, some intel, etc etc
Jun 10 18:13:29 <squeakypants> ah
Jun 10 18:13:29 <zhobbs_> one apk needs to work on every android phone
Jun 10 18:13:38 <squeakypants> gotcha
Jun 10 18:14:09 <zhobbs_> that's the problem with javame...different versions for different phones
Jun 10 18:14:22 <squeakypants> mmm
Jun 10 18:14:29 <squeakypants> i haven't done much with java
Jun 10 18:14:41 * squeakypants is a python guy
Jun 10 18:15:44 <zhobbs_> there will probably be python bindings one day
Jun 10 18:15:50 <zhobbs_> if you make them :)
Jun 10 18:15:54 <squeakypants> well i looked into a bit
Jun 10 18:16:12 <squeakypants> jython doesn't work on dalvik...
Jun 10 18:16:14 <romainguy__> or you could just use Java :))
Jun 10 18:16:19 <romainguy__> Java is just a language
Jun 10 18:16:29 <squeakypants> yeah
Jun 10 18:16:36 <squeakypants> but python is so.... pythonic!
Jun 10 18:16:43 <romainguy__> but it's also just a language
Jun 10 18:16:51 <squeakypants> yeah
Jun 10 18:17:23 <cybereagle> i actually quite like both python and java in different situations lol
Jun 10 18:17:43 <dmoffett> Once you have been spoiled by Ruby or Python C based languages leave a bit to be desired.  :-)
Jun 10 18:18:00 <romainguy__> I disagree
Jun 10 18:18:05 <cybereagle> c was my first language, i'll always love it deep down hehe
Jun 10 18:18:08 <romainguy__> Python has its annoyances too :)
Jun 10 18:18:15 <dmoffett> Which is your right.
Jun 10 18:18:18 <squeakypants> romainguy__: yeah
Jun 10 18:18:18 <dmoffett> of course.
Jun 10 18:18:25 <dmoffett> Don't leave Ruby out.
Jun 10 18:18:31 <dmoffett> It can be annoying.
Jun 10 18:18:33 <romainguy__> I hate Ruby :))
Jun 10 18:18:37 <romainguy__> But that's purely personal
Jun 10 18:18:43 <dmoffett> yep
Jun 10 18:19:07 <f00f-> i like assembly
Jun 10 18:19:13 <f00f-> push & pop
Jun 10 18:19:25 <AttractiveApe> I'm pretty surprised that Google would choose java for android
Jun 10 18:19:27 <f00f-> (if you have the luxury of having a stack)
Jun 10 18:19:32 <dmoffett> f00f: again with a painful perspective.  :-)
Jun 10 18:19:35 <AttractiveApe> They're generally python fanatics I thought :p
Jun 10 18:19:39 <cybereagle> java seems the popular choice for phones
Jun 10 18:19:43 <f00f-> haha dmoffett
Jun 10 18:19:56 <romainguy__> AttractiveApe: we use Python, Java and C++
Jun 10 18:20:14 <AttractiveApe> ah
Jun 10 18:20:21 <squeakypants> cybereagle: yeah... i guess just cause they can port em
Jun 10 18:20:41 <cybereagle> i like to have a lower level "system" kind of a language, and a higher level more conceptual language laying around my brain
Jun 10 18:20:47 <dmoffett> C++ is an abomination imo.  :-)
Jun 10 18:20:51 <romainguy__> Java is a well known language, it has excellent freely available tools, it's easy to learn... :)
Jun 10 18:21:03 <dmoffett> Java is decent.
Jun 10 18:21:04 <romainguy__> but sure, it's not perfect and not everybody like it
Jun 10 18:21:37 <cybereagle> no language is *waits to get flamed* ;)
Jun 10 18:22:15 <dmoffett> Languages are like skiing.  10% equipment anyway.
Jun 10 18:22:19 <squeakypants> romainguy__: besides cross-compatibility, what does java offer vs c++?
Jun 10 18:22:38 <michaelnovakjr__> java has some flaws in terms of objects that shouldn't be objects!
Jun 10 18:22:43 <romainguy__> michaelnovakjr: ??
Jun 10 18:22:56 <romainguy__> michaelnovakjr: if Java has one flaw is that it has primitive types :)
Jun 10 18:22:59 <cybereagle> this is very debatable, but in some ways java is probably easier for people to pick up fast and not have stuff totally bomb out on them
Jun 10 18:23:10 <romainguy__> squeakypants: in a way it's safer
Jun 10 18:23:28 <cybereagle> yeah, java will baby you more lol
Jun 10 18:23:31 <michaelnovakjr__> why do i need to instantiate a SimpleCalendar just to format a Date object as a String?
Jun 10 18:23:36 <romainguy__> it also has cleaner syntax
Jun 10 18:23:43 <romainguy__> michaelnovakjr: that's an API problem, not a language issue
Jun 10 18:24:04 <michaelnovakjr__> that is something to me that is greatly annoying
Jun 10 18:24:25 <michaelnovakjr__> there should be a method you can call statically to return the result for you
Jun 10 18:24:51 <romainguy__> again, it's an API issue
Jun 10 18:24:58 <romainguy__> nothing to do with the language
Jun 10 18:25:09 <romainguy__> file a bug, join a JSR, etc. if you want to fix it
Jun 10 18:25:20 <romainguy__> (there's actually a JSR to improve data/calendar/time APIs)
Jun 10 18:25:26 <cybereagle> true, but api's for a large part of day to day usage of languages like java. if they were consistently annoying, it could be said to be a java problem
Jun 10 18:25:32 <cybereagle> i wouldnt say it was all that bad though
Jun 10 18:25:47 <romainguy__> Java has some bad APIs, but it also has some great APIs
Jun 10 18:25:56 <cybereagle> i'll agree with that
Jun 10 18:26:00 <romainguy__> the concurrent APIs are awesome for instance
Jun 10 18:30:24 <squeakypants> hmm
Jun 10 18:30:27 <squeakypants> i'm trying to run a sample
Jun 10 18:31:11 <squeakypants> all i see is a red dot going left and right...
Jun 10 18:31:20 <michaelnovakjr__> yes the emulator is booting
Jun 10 18:31:30 <squeakypants> ...it's taking a long time
Jun 10 18:31:36 <michaelnovakjr__> it does
Jun 10 18:31:39 <squeakypants> there it goes
Jun 10 18:31:42 <michaelnovakjr__> :)
Jun 10 18:32:11 <romainguy__> get a faster machine :)
Jun 10 18:32:31 <squeakypants> working on it
Jun 10 18:32:44 <squeakypants> wow i didn't realize this emu had all the software on it too
Jun 10 18:32:55 <squeakypants> psh, only 2 bars? :-P
Jun 10 18:35:06 <AttractiveApe> yeah, Google phones have bad reception ;)
Jun 10 18:36:06 <squeakypants> hehe
Jun 10 18:36:26 <squeakypants> so that HTC prototype... how expensive do you think it'll be?
Jun 10 18:36:31 <squeakypants> iphone is only $199 now so...
Jun 10 18:36:47 <romainguy__> but they raised the monthly fee :(
Jun 10 18:37:01 <tethridge> can somebody tell me the name of the service that has lyrics for songs.  I saw an android plugin somewhere that would fetch the lyrics and move them along karaoke style with the music.  If there weren't there, you could tap the lyrics.  Anybody know the name of that site?
Jun 10 18:37:11 <f00f-> tunewiki
Jun 10 18:37:18 <tethridge> thanks
Jun 10 18:37:35 <squeakypants> romainguy__: yeah and no more jailbreaking
Jun 10 18:37:56 <AttractiveApe> romainguy__: google didn't, AT&T did.
Jun 10 18:37:57 <squeakypants> if you don't activate with at&t within a month of buying the iphone, they can charge you
Jun 10 18:38:10 <squeakypants> attractiveape: you mean apple
Jun 10 18:38:10 <donomo> squeakypants: do you think the iphone 3g will be extra-hard to jailbreak?
Jun 10 18:38:27 <AttractiveApe> squeakypants: ah, yes.
Jun 10 18:38:36 <squeakypants> donomo: well, i've heard the sim card won't be as easily accessible. still, i doubt it will be too hard
Jun 10 18:38:48 <AttractiveApe> apple wants to drop the price now so it can take over the phone market.  AT&T just wants more money :p
Jun 10 18:38:53 <squeakypants> lol
Jun 10 18:39:10 <squeakypants> whaaa
Jun 10 18:39:13 <donomo> im just glad non of this crap affects me and my non-apple phone :)
Jun 10 18:39:14 <squeakypants> i can't give my contact a picture?
Jun 10 18:39:14 <f00f-> it'll be a looong time before the operators see profit from iPhone
Jun 10 18:39:38 <AttractiveApe> squeakypants: one what phone?
Jun 10 18:39:47 <AttractiveApe> on
Jun 10 18:40:22 <squeakypants> attractiveape: in the emu
Jun 10 18:40:45 <donomo> also, the FIC FreeRunner phone (hardware for the openmoko project) is in mass-production. should be for sale about the same time as the iphone 3g
Jun 10 18:40:45 <squeakypants> lol i have to say
Jun 10 18:40:53 <squeakypants> this emu is pretty rough ;)
Jun 10 18:41:07 <squeakypants> donomo: is openmoko any good?
Jun 10 18:41:08 <romainguy_> what do you mean rough?
Jun 10 18:41:20 <squeakypants> romainguy_: besides slow, the interface is messy
Jun 10 18:41:26 <donomo> squeakypants: i havent used it beyond the emulator, so i cant say really.
Jun 10 18:41:35 <squeakypants> of course the interface shown at google io was awesome
Jun 10 18:42:00 <michaelnovakjr__> its a beta emulator for building apps
Jun 10 18:42:00 <squeakypants> wow the webkit browser is in the emu
Jun 10 18:42:13 <michaelnovakjr__> not a consumer test of what the phone will really be like
Jun 10 18:42:14 <squeakypants> michaelnovakjr__: yeah i know, i'm just messing around ;)
Jun 10 18:43:17 <squeakypants> aww the mirror thing isn't in the emu... that was awesome
Jun 10 18:44:30 <romainguy_> the mirror ?
Jun 10 18:45:13 <jasta> squeakypants: it's not the emulator which is missing it.
Jun 10 18:45:28 <jasta> squeakypants: the public SDK release is quite old (released in early February)
Jun 10 18:45:40 <jasta> with no expected updates in the near future.  the version that Google is operating on is much newer.
Jun 10 18:46:30 <jasta> romainguy_: so, do you have your h1b?
Jun 10 18:47:29 <squeakypants> jasta: ah gotcha
Jun 10 18:47:38 <squeakypants> romainguy_: my bad, meant magnifying glass :-P
Jun 10 18:51:39 <jasta> squeakypants: i wouldn't expect an SDK release containing the features you saw at the I/O keynote until handset launch later this year.
Jun 10 18:52:12 <jasta> despite the unconvincing assurances google employees are giving to the contrary.
Jun 10 19:16:40 <Dougie187> yeah, the google employees tend to get your hopes up and squash your dreams.
Jun 10 19:16:41 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 10 19:25:10 <borism> can I just upgrade userspace without upgrading the kernel?
Jun 10 19:35:36 <jasta> borism: upgrade what userspace?
Jun 10 19:35:38 <jasta> to what?
Jun 10 19:49:13 * jasta grins
Jun 10 19:49:15 <jasta> Android has /dev/ptmx :)
Jun 10 19:49:30 <jasta> (moving on to the terminal emulator app, for those that are curious)
Jun 10 19:50:06 <michaelnovakjr__> have you been using android jasta?
Jun 10 19:55:11 <jasta> using, as in like it's a working phone?
Jun 10 19:59:27 <michaelnovakjr__> yea
Jun 10 20:01:18 <jasta> hell no :)
Jun 10 20:01:29 <jasta> Android, as it is released, would make a terrible phone.
Jun 10 20:01:35 <jasta> it has basically nothing but a web browser.
Jun 10 20:02:12 <michaelnovakjr__> have you installed apps on it yet?
Jun 10 20:03:21 <jasta> what apps?  nothing exists.
Jun 10 20:06:54 <jasta> it is occurring to me that allocating a pty in Java may not be natively possible.  i will have to glue this with JNI
Jun 10 20:06:59 <jasta> but that sucks :(
Jun 10 20:07:24 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta i meant anything you've created
Jun 10 20:07:32 <michaelnovakjr__> you wrote five and an rss reader that i know of
Jun 10 20:07:47 <jasta> oh yeah, i loaded those
Jun 10 20:07:52 <jasta> Five breaks horribly
Jun 10 20:08:06 <jasta> the app hangs the UI thread on invocation, for some reason.
Jun 10 20:08:32 <jasta> i dont know why, but rather than guess and check, i'd rather get USB support working and just do logcat ;)
Jun 10 20:08:43 <AttractiveApe> probably due to lack of writable memory.
Jun 10 20:09:01 <jasta> also, Five ultimately won't work since there is no main speaker support, and no writable memory
Jun 10 20:09:09 <jasta> AttractiveApe: no, because the app does not attempt to write anywhere on startup.
Jun 10 20:10:14 <tomgibara> jasta: how do you think performance compares to the emulator?
Jun 10 20:10:29 <jasta> performance was frankly amazing.
Jun 10 20:11:16 <jasta> the base platform certainly felt nice, and that it was certainly attainable to meet iPhone standards
Jun 10 20:11:51 <tomgibara> I strongly suspect that moseycode's performance will suffer very badly from the Dalvik interpreter
Jun 10 20:12:07 <jasta> as opposed to?  why?
Jun 10 20:12:12 <tomgibara> But that any apps using all of the native goodness (graphics APIs etc) will perfom well
Jun 10 20:13:06 <jasta> well the native APIs are likely to have better performance not because they are not interpreted with Dalvik, but rather because they are not generating as bloated a bytecode at all :)
Jun 10 20:13:13 <tomgibara> Simply that the interpreter overhead is (I believe) very great on the hotspot in Moseycode - the image processing
Jun 10 20:13:45 <tomgibara> The more efficiently you write your code, the greater the overhead of the interpreter as a percentage of execution time
Jun 10 20:14:03 <tomgibara> Moseycode's image processing code is very very efficient
Jun 10 20:14:08 <jasta> i doubt that very much, but in your case it makes sense in either case to implement image processing natively and use JNI
Jun 10 20:14:23 <tomgibara> What do you doubt?
Jun 10 20:14:57 <jasta> that your engine will see a drastic improvement in performance simply by translating the algorithm to C.
Jun 10 20:15:36 <jasta> though i think that, beyond translation, C will offer you some significant opportunities to optimize your code furtehr that will make the greatest difference.
Jun 10 20:16:23 <tomgibara> vs JIT/AOT compiled Java, no. But the Dalvik interpreter will carry a significant overhead for my code - I'm sure of it
Jun 10 20:16:51 <jasta> as i said, there is an argument in either case to implement your image processing natively and i would recommend that route.
Jun 10 20:18:13 <jasta> though it is yet to be seen how applications written that way will be distributed.
Jun 10 20:18:24 <tomgibara> Casting the code into C would be fairly easy work - it's one complex method with just integer arithmetic. But I've seen no indication that anything other than Dalvik bytecode will be permited for applications
Jun 10 20:19:01 <jasta> tomgibara: permitted in what sense?  technically, JNI is functional now.
Jun 10 20:19:32 <tomgibara> permitted in the sense of installable via an APK or other application deployment bundle
Jun 10 20:19:33 <jasta> the distribution model that Google has come up with so far doesn't support it, but that is not to say it cannot be changed or replaced.
Jun 10 20:20:22 <jasta> and i think that it certainly will be.  apks should be extended to allow installation hooks and other functionality which would permit you to do also distribute extra pieces in your bundle and install them appropriatley.
Jun 10 20:21:16 <jasta> likewise, /data/lib should be created and honored, in addition to /system/lib, but perhaps with specail care taken to enforce linker precedence.
Jun 10 20:22:46 <tomgibara> We will see, but I wouldn't expect that sort of extension to happen unless there is a real and evident demand for it.
Jun 10 20:24:41 <chaosvoyager> I highly suspect that Dalvik will have JIT in the future. It's gonna need something like that or native exe distribution to keep up with the competition.
Jun 10 20:25:25 <tomgibara> jasta: If you get an opportunity, I'd be interested in knowing if Moseycode runs on your phone - or if it dies like five :-(
Jun 10 20:26:09 <tomgibara> I don't think it needs a JIT, better would be a selective AOT compiler that is targetted using annotations
Jun 10 20:26:58 <zhobbs_> does it have a camera?
Jun 10 20:27:38 <tomgibara> I think a JIT would have very poor performance characteristics within the context of Android
Jun 10 20:27:40 <jasta> the camera stuff is very strange on the HTC Vogue.  it is that same dummy image we see with the emulator
Jun 10 20:27:52 <jasta> except with lots of drawing bugs, and ultimately freezing the phone
Jun 10 20:28:31 <tomgibara> jasta: Oh well, nevermind - one day some device somewhere will run my app :-/
Jun 10 20:35:09 <jasta> being patient is very frustrating :)
Jun 10 20:35:25 <chaosvoyager> tomgibaba: Since the biggest cost of JIT is memory, it's not useful on memory limited phones. Hmm, perhaps something between a JIT and an annotation targeted AOT, where only the annotated code gets JITted.
Jun 10 20:38:02 <tomgibara> chaosvoyager: JITs also have a performance overhead - they need to profile before compiling - and then they need to do the compilation. That's fine on a desktop where an application might run for at least several minutes. On android applications may be starting/stopping very frequently
Jun 10 20:43:21 <chaosvoyager> tomgibara: So? If the app is used frequently, then Android can used the compiled version generated by the JIT. Again, mostly memory related. And the performance hit is usually quite small. Heck, even WebKit uses JIT for it's Javascript engine now, and the same concernes as you mentioned were brought up. So far, it doesn't seem to be t bad, and that's with running cde that's typically run ONCE.
Jun 10 20:44:14 <chaosvoyager> say This POS keyboard is dropping letters >_<
Jun 10 20:46:20 <chaosvoyager> eh, and I meant "its", not "it's". The heat must be getting to me.
Jun 10 20:47:27 <tomgibara> That's a good point, but what needs to be remembered is that it's the relative trade-off that's important. I anticipate that a JS JIT in Webkit will 'earn its keep' much more quickly than a JVM/Dalvik JIT because the performance of the latter is already so much better.
Jun 10 20:48:03 <tomgibara> ie. A JS JIT can make very quick wins in a way that a Java JIT can't
Jun 10 20:48:29 <tomgibara> I'm no expert on JITing, but that's my intuition
Jun 10 20:50:47 <chaosvoyager> You're right about those quick JS wins. Much of its slowness was due to lazy design :) However, I'm not so sure that Dalvik would not see similar quick wins.
Jun 10 20:52:15 <dmoffett> jasta:  When adbd starts up it opens a socket on port 5037.  Is this port available on the  device you testing?  No problem if you don;t have time to check.
Jun 10 20:53:00 <romainguy_> chaosvoyager: have you even tried Dalvik on a real device? :)
Jun 10 20:54:11 <f00f-> hey tomgibara, did we meet at i/o ?
Jun 10 20:54:54 <tomgibara> f00f-: I can be certain that we didn't because I was stuck in Birmingham UK :-)
Jun 10 20:55:08 <f00f-> ah, hehe
Jun 10 20:55:28 <tomgibara> f00f-: Why, have I mastered Astral projection and not realized it? I was there in spirit
Jun 10 20:56:03 <f00f-> i thought so
Jun 10 20:56:07 <f00f-> are you a big fan of Astral Projection ?
Jun 10 20:56:12 <chaosvoyager> romainguy: No, but as a rule of thumb, memory optimized VMs tend to suffer in comparison with performance optimized JIT VMs when it comes to performance. And I was under the impression that Dalvik was designed *specifically* for memory constrained devices.
Jun 10 20:56:37 <tomgibara> f00f-: It's useful for escaping boring meetings
Jun 10 20:57:25 <f00f-> aye.
Jun 10 20:59:50 <zhobbs_> tomgibara:  I heard someone talking about you, called you "tom the brain" or "tom the genius" or something
Jun 10 21:00:29 <zhobbs_> Mary Ann is impressed
Jun 10 21:00:37 <tomgibara> zhobbs_: ha - I have no idea where these epithets come from
Jun 10 21:01:07 <chaosvoyager> romainguy: On the other hand, if you know where I can get an actual Android device, I'll be glad to make an empirical comparison ;)
Jun 10 21:01:20 <f00f-> zhobbs_: you still in SF?
Jun 10 21:01:21 <tomgibara> Only one person out of me and Mary Ann produced a winning application and it wasn't me :-)
Jun 10 21:01:26 <romainguy_> chaosvoyager: there's a couple on my desk :)
Jun 10 21:01:44 <f00f-> tomgibara: how do you know each other, are you on muthu's team?
Jun 10 21:02:01 <zhobbs_> well, I agreed with her...projects like moseycode are beyond my ability
Jun 10 21:02:17 <tomgibara> f00f-: Yeah, I'm just helping out.
Jun 10 21:02:20 <zhobbs_> f00f-: nope, but I'll be back in 2 weeks for work
Jun 10 21:02:34 <f00f-> sweet, we should try to organize a meetup
Jun 10 21:02:51 <f00f-> the metosphere guy was talking about it, but looks like he hasnt
Jun 10 21:03:13 <zhobbs_> well, I'll be in Napa Valley, not sure how far that is
Jun 10 21:03:52 <f00f-> drinking/making wine, i see
Jun 10 21:03:58 <f00f-> it's not exactly a tear drop away
Jun 10 21:04:01 <dmoffett> tomgibara: I don't think losing the ADC shows a lack of intelligence.  At least I hope not.  :-)
Jun 10 21:05:57 <zhobbs_> f00f-: yeah, on a tight schedule too...I'll let you know if I do find some time in SF
Jun 10 21:06:38 <tomgibara> dmoffett: :-)
Jun 10 21:07:08 <f00f-> all right
Jun 10 21:07:57 <chaosvoyager> romainguy: Are you offering me one, or just teasing?
Jun 10 21:08:07 <romainguy_> I'm just teasing you
Jun 10 21:08:29 <chaosvoyager> Bah
Jun 10 21:09:38 <f00f-> romainguy_: pics of the devices or it's not true
Jun 10 21:09:47 <romainguy_> ha :)
Jun 10 21:10:41 <chaosvoyager> I believe him because I can find no reason NOT to believe him.
Jun 10 21:13:01 <romainguy_> jasta: yes I do have my H1B, but I've had it for quite a while now
Jun 10 21:13:54 <romainguy_> (sorry I'm answering so late, I didn't see the question :)
Jun 10 21:14:13 <chaosvoyager> Does anyone know if Android's WebKit supports plugins?
Jun 10 21:16:08 <jasta> romainguy_: my friend just got denied for the 4th time.  he has only 1 more shot and then he'll have to leave the country.
Jun 10 21:16:24 <romainguy_> what visa does he have right now?
Jun 10 21:16:39 <romainguy_> (and yeah, H1Bs are hard to obtain nowadays with the quotas)
Jun 10 21:17:09 <romainguy_> I actually got my H1B in 2005 when I was working for Sun
Jun 10 21:17:56 <jasta> he just has a student visa now, i believe.
Jun 10 21:18:07 <jasta> he went to grad school to stay in the country, but is about to graduate.
Jun 10 21:18:14 <romainguy_> ah yes
Jun 10 21:18:37 <romainguy_> another easy way to get a work visa is to work abroad for a US company for one yearr
Jun 10 21:18:38 <romainguy_> -r
Jun 10 21:18:42 <romainguy_> then you can get the L1 visa
Jun 10 21:18:48 <romainguy_> which is more or less like the H1
Jun 10 21:18:52 <romainguy_> H1B
Jun 10 21:19:43 <jasta> none of our female friends will participate in a green card wedding either ;)
Jun 10 21:20:12 <chaosvoyager> Try Craigslist.
Jun 10 21:20:27 <romainguy_> jasta: :))
Jun 10 21:20:49 <jasta> now that gay marriage is legal in CA, there is a strong possibility that my friend Fred will do it ;)
Jun 10 21:22:37 <jasta> everyone says that green card weddings are hard to fake, but i doubt that very much.
Jun 10 21:22:57 <romainguy_> hmm I wouldn't be surprised if the US gov was very rigorous about it
Jun 10 21:23:02 <jasta> given the intelligence demonstrated by any other segment of this government... :)
Jun 10 21:23:13 <romainguy_> (given how painful it can be to just get a stupid student or H1B visa)
Jun 10 21:23:18 <jasta> i'm sure they would be rigorous, but filling out paperwork and showing up to meetings is not hard.
Jun 10 21:31:09 <blaked> Women can't drive.
Jun 10 21:31:30 <blaked> Women should not be allowed to drive anything but 3-wheeled cars.
Jun 10 21:32:13 <jasta> romainguy_: i might be wrong.  looks like they do require a lot of crazy things ;)
Jun 10 21:32:21 <romainguy_> :)
Jun 10 21:32:33 <romainguy_> I can't wait to ask for my green card... it will be so much fun...
Jun 10 21:32:35 <jasta> wedding photos and love letters
Jun 10 21:32:52 <f00f-> postcards, etc.
Jun 10 21:33:02 <jasta> though i don't know who writes love letters anymore :)
Jun 10 21:33:12 <jasta> they want hotel and plane receipts to show you visited each other
Jun 10 21:33:33 <jasta> though all of this would be easily fakeable if you were friends with the person.
Jun 10 21:33:52 <jasta> the only tricky part would be wedding photos.  but you could just dress up nice and take pictures of you and your family and stuff
Jun 10 21:34:04 <romainguy_> and hope the govt doesn't find out :)
Jun 10 21:34:20 <f00f-> well
Jun 10 21:34:31 <f00f-> the kiss and stuff
Jun 10 21:34:33 <jasta> certainly better than going back to mother rusia ;)
Jun 10 21:34:51 <f00f-> they'll ask for the pope
Jun 10 21:34:52 <f00f-> err
Jun 10 21:34:54 <f00f-> the ...
Jun 10 21:34:56 <blaked> nigger!!!
Jun 10 21:35:00 <blaked> NIGGER GO AWAY
Jun 10 21:35:12 <f00f-> the preacher i guess?
Jun 10 21:35:15 <f00f-> the guy who marries you
Jun 10 21:35:18 <f00f-> to prove it
Jun 10 21:35:21 <jasta> that would be easy to fake.
Jun 10 21:35:34 <jasta> you dont need a preacher to marry you.
Jun 10 21:35:44 <f00f-> just some fat lady in an office can sign off on it
Jun 10 21:35:47 <f00f-> true
Jun 10 21:36:03 <f00f-> best thing is juts go to vegas and do it
Jun 10 21:36:31 <jasta> yeah
Jun 10 21:37:01 <jasta> the reality is, he has less than a year to stay here, and he isn't going to meet someone and get married for real in that time.
Jun 10 21:37:12 <jasta> he's been here for 6 years and that hasn't happened, so :)
Jun 10 21:37:23 <jasta> so it's time to start thinking of crazy plans hehe
Jun 10 21:38:03 <f00f-> why would he want to move to the US anyway?
Jun 10 21:38:13 <f00f-> must be the money!!!!!!!!
Jun 10 21:38:21 <jasta> he's lived in the US for the last 6 years
Jun 10 21:40:22 <jasta> also, he'd be forced to serve 12 months of military service in Russia if he went back
Jun 10 21:42:38 <davidw> I knew a guy who got married to stay in the US
Jun 10 21:42:47 <davidw> apparently they are pretty detailed in their questioning:-/
Jun 10 21:43:47 <jasta> yeah i was just reading some stuff that seems pretty tough.
Jun 10 21:43:54 <jasta> although, our friend Carolyn could totally do it.
Jun 10 21:43:59 <jasta> but she refuses
Jun 10 21:44:08 <davidw> what a bunch of horse shit, though
Jun 10 21:44:23 <davidw> if someone's not mooching or in trouble with the law, they should be able to stay
Jun 10 21:44:24 <jasta> she knows a lot about dmitri, they talk and hang out just the two of them.  there's lots of basic stuff taken care of already.
Jun 10 21:44:32 <chaosvoyager> Hmm, the Newlywed Game as run by the federal government. That would make fine TV.
Jun 10 21:44:54 <davidw> yoooooooou just won a fabulous trip to ..... prison!
Jun 10 21:45:07 <jasta> that would be sucky if he had to go back to Russia.
Jun 10 21:45:08 <f00f-> :D
Jun 10 21:45:22 <jasta> davidw: you think visa fraud would wind the US citizen in prison?
Jun 10 21:45:29 <jasta> i would be surprised, honestly.
Jun 10 21:45:39 <dmoffett> If you want some very crazy stories related to just this subject check out "This American Life" episode: #353
Jun 10 21:46:17 <davidw> jasta, who knows
Jun 10 21:46:39 <davidw> the people that run that crap are a bunch of bozos
Jun 10 21:46:52 <dmoffett> Be sure to do it after Bush is out of office.
Jun 10 21:47:07 <jasta> i imagine the steepest penalty the US govt would be willing to levy against a citizen would be annulment of the fake wedding.
Jun 10 21:48:02 <jasta> since there could be a massive political backlash putting a US citizen in jail or anything that extreme simply because they failed to cough up lough letters and "sufficient" wedding photos.
Jun 10 21:48:17 <jasta> err, love*
Jun 10 21:48:21 <jasta> not lough ;)
Jun 10 21:53:20 <dmoffett> the govt does not give a crap about love letters.  They check to see if you are doing things like buying a house in both names, filing taxes in both names, Sharing checking and saving accounts.  Making the spouse a beneficiary of your life insurance, having kids.  Stuff a typical married couple does.
Jun 10 21:55:54 <jasta> well, having kids certainly isn't a necessity.
Jun 10 21:56:02 <jasta> or shouldnt be
Jun 10 21:56:14 <jasta> lots of people dont have kids until their 30s.
Jun 10 21:56:38 <dmoffett> of course not, it is the whole picture.  Does it add of to a married couple.  Of course all that can be faked and probably has been many times.
Jun 10 21:57:20 <jasta> i suppose.  it seems like one of the overarching themes here is that you have to trust the person you do this with.
Jun 10 21:57:26 <dmoffett> But if doctor up a bunch of pictures and lover letters I think your case will be difficult.
Jun 10 21:58:15 <jasta> well hmm.  this is gonna be a real problem in the next year or so.
Jun 10 21:58:41 <dmoffett> As dumb as you might think these guys are this is thier job and they have probably seen a gambit of schemes.  Just like any police type officer.
Jun 10 22:00:03 <jasta> i think the scheme can only work if the person involved has an existing relatiosnhip
Jun 10 22:00:14 <jasta> as in, there was some reasonable way that they could have fallen in love and wanted to be married
Jun 10 22:00:26 <jasta> which is why i'm kind of pissed that my friend Carolyn won't do it.
Jun 10 22:00:37 <jasta> she hangs out with him all the time.  hell, we all think they slept together too
Jun 10 22:00:40 <jasta> :)
Jun 10 22:00:42 <f00f-> lol
Jun 10 22:00:54 <dmoffett> The trick is get the rules they follow from some govt site and follow the rules and you will probably not have a problem.  Assume they are dumb and just wing and I think there might be deportment.  :-)
Jun 10 22:00:58 <f00f-> afraid of getting caught by the feds
Jun 10 22:01:05 <f00f-> it's all public law, too
Jun 10 22:01:16 <f00f-> maybe not "law" but you know what i mean
Jun 10 22:01:28 <davidw> jasta, can't he go to canada or someplace with less screwed up laws?
Jun 10 22:01:33 <jasta> like i said, i dont think the penalty for US citizens could be too steep.
Jun 10 22:01:39 <jasta> but it would be worth investigating.
Jun 10 22:02:00 <jasta> davidw: apparently Canada is more screwed up.  it will require that he return to Russia first, which will begin his mandatory service.
Jun 10 22:02:06 <jasta> after which, he will be free to move to Canada.
Jun 10 22:02:07 <dmoffett> I think they just deport the illegal alien.
Jun 10 22:02:34 <jasta> dmoffett: right, so that's why i can't figure her motivation for refusing to try this.
Jun 10 22:03:07 <dmoffett> At least that is what happened to the spouses of the people on "This American Life".
Jun 10 22:03:10 <jasta> i would do it, if it was legal and did not involve kissing him.
Jun 10 22:03:19 <davidw> I went through all that shit in Italy... wasn't legal until we got married (which was, however, for real:-)
Jun 10 22:03:40 <davidw> jasta, maybe she wants to be able to get married to someone else
Jun 10 22:03:43 <f00f-> move to cali jasta ;p
Jun 10 22:03:53 <jasta> Fred already lives there.  I'll make him do it :)
Jun 10 22:04:19 <jasta> davidw: of course, but what is the term requirement of this fake marriage?
Jun 10 22:04:49 <jasta> surely there must be a route to pursue permanent residency while in the fake marriage.
Jun 10 22:04:59 <f00f-> have an affair
Jun 10 22:05:04 <f00f-> have kids
Jun 10 22:05:23 <jasta> carolyn is 22, so it's not like marriage should be right around the corner.
Jun 10 22:05:43 <jasta> anyway, i have a doctor appt to check out why my arm has hurt ever since I/O
Jun 10 22:05:46 <jasta> (what the hell did i do!?!)
Jun 10 22:05:54 <f00f-> LOL
Jun 10 22:05:54 <jasta> later guys
Jun 10 22:05:57 <f00f-> ciao
Jun 11 01:29:03 <Hyphenex> Any idea on when the Android is going to come out of beta and into production (I was kind of hoping it'd be up there competing with the iPhone around this time of year)
Jun 11 01:29:38 <VooDooGuy> Hyphenex: From what i've read, sprint is talking about a released phone later this year
Jun 11 01:29:52 <Hyphenex> VooDooGuy: around november then?
Jun 11 01:29:55 <VooDooGuy> But the SDK i've played with is pretty incomplete I think.
Jun 11 01:29:56 <Hyphenex> December?
Jun 11 01:30:03 <VooDooGuy> I would imagine it will be this year
Jun 11 01:30:12 <VooDooGuy> that's just my best guess though
Jun 11 01:30:30 <Hyphenex> that'd be cool, what do you mean by sprint was releasing...?  Can't we just buy phones outright with Android on them?
Jun 11 01:30:32 <VooDooGuy> I'm chompin at the bit to start my android compatible game...so hopefully soon :-)
Jun 11 01:30:51 <VooDooGuy> well, sprint is rumored to be the first to release a phone running android
Jun 11 01:31:13 <Hyphenex> Ahhkay (I suppose AT&T in the US have iPhone, it makes sense)
Jun 11 01:31:39 <VooDooGuy> but i'm sure verizon and att will be one of the last, since they have the most to lose :-)
Jun 11 01:34:41 <Hyphenex> I'm actually an iPhone fan, but I can't get one unless I change phone providers here in Aus and go on a big expensive plan, so I plan on jumping ship :P
Jun 11 01:35:14 <Dougie187> VooDooGuy: some people dont even know if verizon and att will carry them, since they are not OHA members.
Jun 11 01:35:28 <Dougie187> and, kinda opposed to the whole "open" idea
Jun 11 01:35:46 <Dougie187> i have heard rumors though, both that Tmobile and Sprint will have android handsets out by the end of the year
Jun 11 01:36:05 <Hyphenex> what about Australia!? :P
Jun 11 01:36:16 <Dougie187> i heard september and december, but i dont know if those are accurate anymore.
Jun 11 01:36:34 <Dougie187> lol does Australia have any carriers in the OHA?
Jun 11 01:36:38 <AttractiveApe> Hyphenex: why not get an unlocked ifone then, and have it shipped in?
Jun 11 01:37:00 <Hyphenex> AttractiveApe: from what I've read, there not going to sell the unlocked ones
Jun 11 01:37:14 <Dougie187> i believe there is a program to unlock them
Jun 11 01:37:22 <Dougie187> but you can't buy a 3g one without a plan
Jun 11 01:37:28 <Hyphenex> That's the thing
Jun 11 01:38:36 <AttractiveApe> The apple store isn't going to sell them unlocked?
Jun 11 01:38:40 <AttractiveApe> That seems silly.
Jun 11 01:38:41 <Dougie187> no
Jun 11 01:38:50 <Hyphenex> and that's why I'm here in #android :P
Jun 11 01:40:56 <VooDooGuy> and, if you read slashdot, there was an article today talking about punishing people who unlock the iphone
Jun 11 01:40:58 <VooDooGuy> :-)
Jun 11 01:41:16 <Hyphenex> is that the entire remote-wipe thing?
Jun 11 01:46:18 <VooDooGuy> yeah, I think so
Jun 11 01:52:44 <romainguy_> no
Jun 11 01:52:49 <romainguy_> the remote-wipe is for enterprise
Jun 11 01:52:55 <romainguy_> for instance if your phone gets stolen
Jun 11 02:26:11 * Hyphenex is away: Lunchies
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jun 11 02:59:56 2008