**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jun 12 02:59:57 2008 Jun 12 09:15:19 anyone here? Jun 12 09:44:42 So I have a working version of Android for my Vouge and diffs for the code from back in January. For me this means Data, Voice, and TouchScreen work, but no audio or bluetooth and very few apps. Anything I can do to get/build a newer version? Jun 12 09:47:47 rainabba, wait until it's open source Jun 12 10:01:44 Thought the project was and that's the big deal? Jun 12 11:57:44 rainabba, it's not open source yet Jun 12 14:44:06 hey does anyone in here use pitivi? Jun 12 15:00:32 hi - just posted demo on sleepydroid.blogspot.com would appreciate comments/critiques/tips for speeding up this particular demo (TwitterDemo) Jun 12 15:27:08 k , this is my question , Will android work on a java based phone ( samsung instinct with Sprint) i believe they come with 2GB SDcards Jun 12 15:27:34 i know for sure Sprint is a partner Jun 12 15:30:10 tmobile is a partner too Jun 12 15:30:26 and to answer your question, noone knows yet Jun 12 15:31:45 since it is open source, theoretically it should work. but the main issue is some of the hardware drivers will not be open sourced, so you might have a hell of a time porting android to a non-native device. Jun 12 15:35:01 I'm hoping that there are android phones that allow you to add SD memory in one form or another Jun 12 15:35:08 I'm sure there will be Jun 12 15:35:40 there will be because it a point of difference over the iPhone (which as of v2 has no SD slot) Jun 12 15:36:23 even my free $30 phone from sprint has a micro SD slot Jun 12 15:38:14 question: are all developer events essentially the same format? Jun 12 15:40:48 sleepydroid: do you mean in general? Jun 12 15:41:02 I guess I'd say that JavaOne is somewhat different from WWDC :) Jun 12 15:41:12 or did you mean in some context? Jun 12 15:41:18 * morrildl jumps into the middle of a conversation... Jun 12 15:41:40 hmm I mean google developer events ;) natch Jun 12 15:41:44 ah Jun 12 15:41:47 thank you guys Jun 12 15:41:54 Well, I didn't want to assume ;) Jun 12 15:42:17 sleepydroid: if you mean the "Developer Day" events going on in various cities around the world -- yes they are the same format Jun 12 15:42:27 i think when they realease the OS cellphone providers will also have or release new phones with preinstalled android Jun 12 15:42:29 hey dan. have you heard anything from jason yet? Jun 12 15:42:33 cool - then I need only go as far as London Jun 12 15:42:43 not that I'm against travel Jun 12 15:42:54 sleepydroid: yeah Jun 12 15:43:32 *thinks Jun 12 15:44:18 morrildl: have you heard anything from jason yet? Jun 12 15:46:54 Dougie187: dude, give it up :) Jun 12 15:47:00 lol Jun 12 15:47:04 but i cant jasta Jun 12 15:47:09 btw, im installing wc3 Jun 12 15:47:21 they have already given you your answer. Jun 12 15:50:10 who else here is based in UK? Jun 12 15:53:53 jasta: when do you guys play dota? Jun 12 16:08:18 Dougie187: usually around 10pm PST on weekdays Jun 12 16:08:24 tue/thu usually Jun 12 16:08:31 10 pm? Jun 12 16:08:32 lol Jun 12 16:08:36 well im not gonna be playing with you guys Jun 12 16:08:42 what time zone are you in? Jun 12 16:09:13 EST Jun 12 16:09:16 or EDT Jun 12 16:13:18 cya guys - its the end of my working day here Jun 12 16:36:15 hey jasta, does cedega automatically patch warcraft for you? Jun 12 16:48:40 Dougie187: no, you just download the patch from blizzard and add a shortcut to it and run Jun 12 16:48:49 Dougie187: we occassionally play around 8pm PST Jun 12 16:48:57 depending on your bed time, that could work Jun 12 16:50:29 heh, not durring the week it wouldnt Jun 12 16:50:32 on the weekends it could Jun 12 16:51:17 weenie :) Jun 12 16:51:21 what time do you go to bed? Jun 12 16:51:29 9:30-10 Jun 12 16:51:35 lol are you serious? Jun 12 16:51:38 how old are you!? Jun 12 16:51:43 23 Jun 12 16:51:44 lol Jun 12 16:51:49 my wife has to go to work earluy Jun 12 16:51:49 jeez dude :) Jun 12 16:51:51 early Jun 12 16:52:03 so does my gf, i just sleep through her getting ready :) Jun 12 16:53:22 on the weekends we stay up till like 1 Jun 12 16:53:59 plus, im an early morning kinda guy. Jun 12 16:56:10 we don't usually play on weekends :) Jun 12 16:56:15 thats too bad. Jun 12 16:56:33 i have to spend time with my gf on weekends hehe Jun 12 16:56:36 she hates dota ;) Jun 12 16:56:36 hah Jun 12 16:56:43 not during the week though? Jun 12 16:56:50 i play on "geek nights" Jun 12 16:56:52 thats when you get to ignore her. Jun 12 16:56:53 lol Jun 12 16:57:12 we established this system where i get to pick days during the week to work on coding projects, play video games, etc Jun 12 16:57:20 basically, so she can prepare to be ignored :) Jun 12 16:57:25 thats cool Jun 12 16:57:30 she comes over usually, makes dinner, and reads a book Jun 12 16:57:57 you guys live in different apts? Jun 12 16:58:01 \houses Jun 12 16:58:15 yeah, but its a sham. she's at my house every day of the week Jun 12 16:58:23 heh Jun 12 16:58:31 well, 2 more years and you guys can get married! Jun 12 16:58:35 we just basically pay $500/mo to store her stuff somewhere :( Jun 12 16:58:58 i'd like to move in with her, but i don't want to give up my bachelor pad ;) Jun 12 16:58:59 wow $500 Jun 12 16:59:02 that's cheap Jun 12 16:59:23 not really Jun 12 16:59:32 how big is the app? Jun 12 16:59:39 apt* Jun 12 16:59:42 it's a house she shares with 2 other girls Jun 12 16:59:49 i'm comparing to the NYC market Jun 12 16:59:55 lol Jun 12 16:59:58 i have a 2 bedroom apt for $1200 Jun 12 17:00:01 NYC market is bad Jun 12 17:00:03 well yeah, Seattle is totally more awesome Jun 12 17:00:06 yeah i have a friend who has the same thing. Jun 12 17:00:12 well, maybe its a 1 bedroom apt for 1200 Jun 12 17:00:14 but stuff Jun 12 17:00:15 still Jun 12 17:00:18 they pay 1200 Jun 12 17:00:22 way expensive Jun 12 17:00:26 yeah Jun 12 17:00:32 you should compare to San Fran. Jun 12 17:00:35 or LA Jun 12 17:00:46 SF is not unusual to pay thousands of dollars for just 2 people. Jun 12 17:01:09 my house is 3000 sq ft and we pay $2160 total, for 4 people. Jun 12 17:01:26 we have a rec area upstairs with a pool table, wet bar, ... Jun 12 17:02:23 so you can see why i dont want to move in with my girl :) Jun 12 17:02:30 my rent would go up, and the size of my house would go way down Jun 12 17:02:54 i like how the weather on weather.com is always for the previous hour. Jun 12 17:03:15 it is easier to predict that way Jun 12 17:03:21 lol Jun 12 17:03:28 but it shouldnt be predicting anymore. Jun 12 17:03:36 it should be, stating what happened. Jun 12 17:03:47 they haven't gotten the memo Jun 12 17:03:58 well thats too bad then. Jun 12 17:05:54 lunch time Jun 12 17:05:54 brb Jun 12 17:35:42 irish coffee at irish bank Jun 12 17:36:04 seems to be a good way to start the day Jun 12 17:39:04 Doubts raised over Android fragmentation - http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communications/0,1000000085,39433603,00.htm Jun 12 17:39:57 i bet you look really out of place at that pub :) Jun 12 17:40:06 jasta: haha Jun 12 17:40:12 nothing strange to me Jun 12 17:41:20 muthu: is that the bar next to chinatown? Jun 12 17:41:22 well you won't think you look strange there Jun 12 17:41:29 but i think you would :) Jun 12 17:41:54 is SF known for a large irish population? Jun 12 17:41:57 romainguy_: yeah, that's the one Jun 12 17:41:58 at a pub in the morning ordering a drink you just learned about on IRC the day before. yeah, i bet you look out of plac e;) Jun 12 17:42:06 lol Jun 12 17:42:20 the pub has wifi? Jun 12 17:42:21 Dougie187: looks like it Jun 12 17:42:29 there's a lot of irish folks here in SF Jun 12 17:43:15 so muthu you went to the irish bank? Jun 12 17:43:17 Dougie187: went to fillmore Jun 12 17:43:23 you like it? Jun 12 17:43:25 and the japanese town next to it Jun 12 17:43:32 yeah, nice place Jun 12 17:43:40 did you go into the record shop? Jun 12 17:43:53 not the record shop Jun 12 17:44:03 went to one of the pubs Jun 12 17:44:09 lol Jun 12 17:44:15 is your SF trip now just a tour of pubs? Jun 12 17:44:26 its a mix of everything Jun 12 17:44:28 what else is there in SF? Jun 12 17:44:34 yeah right Jun 12 17:44:54 if you live in SF, i'm not sure how you cannot walk into the pubs Jun 12 17:45:11 with all the happy hours in the evenings Jun 12 17:45:33 there's only a few place i haven't visited now Jun 12 17:45:36 like the russian hills Jun 12 17:45:41 muthu: there are not that many pubs in San Francisco I found Jun 12 17:45:47 compared to France for instance Jun 12 17:45:59 romainguy_: rest my case, if you are comparing to europse Jun 12 17:46:11 s/europse/europe/g Jun 12 17:46:12 muthu meant: romainguy_: rest my case, if you are comparing to europe Jun 12 17:46:32 heard a lot of good stories about europe in general Jun 12 17:46:47 lol Jun 12 17:47:01 netherlands/france/belgium/switzerland Jun 12 17:47:11 pub_count(EU) >>> pub_count(US) Jun 12 17:47:18 haha Jun 12 17:47:25 nice theres crazy thunder outside and no rain Jun 12 17:47:25 lol Jun 12 17:47:29 all i can say is: terrace cafe's & bars Jun 12 17:47:34 those are for the win, period. Jun 12 17:48:08 I really miss terraces :(( Jun 12 17:48:16 It's hard to find bars with terraces in SF Jun 12 17:48:21 have any of you ever been to whistler? Jun 12 17:48:23 yeah, i've been looking for one Jun 12 17:48:25 which sucks because the weather is just so perfect for beers outside Jun 12 17:48:35 is there any in SF? Jun 12 17:48:35 jasta: sounds familiar Jun 12 17:48:37 that's a weird scene. lots of outside bars and restuarants, in the freezing fucking cold :) Jun 12 17:48:42 i really want to go to an open terrace bar Jun 12 17:48:49 they make fires outside and use those expensive outdoor heaters all over Jun 12 17:48:53 yup romain, i'm surprised why there aren't any terracebars here Jun 12 17:48:56 must be the political climate Jun 12 17:49:18 f00f-: you have any? Jun 12 17:49:18 and there are lots of clubs, so you see girls in their skanked out club gear freezing cold and walking to a club :) Jun 12 17:49:27 you should make a terrace bar Jun 12 17:49:35 muthu: no, sorry, i dont own one.... yet :P Jun 12 17:49:35 jasta: sounds like england to me :)) Jun 12 17:49:50 romainguy: no, not quite. it's literally freezing cold :) Jun 12 17:50:03 whistler is a skiing community, at the base of blackcomb and whistler mountain. Jun 12 17:50:14 f00f-: anything in SF? Jun 12 17:50:21 but its hilarious seeing girls wearing practically nothing walking around in 30 degree weather. Jun 12 17:50:34 jasta: i don't know how they manage that Jun 12 17:50:47 me neither. the guys are sensibly dressed, wearing coats and layers ;) Jun 12 17:51:13 haha Jun 12 17:51:15 another thing about SF is Jun 12 17:51:20 there's no allnight club/bar Jun 12 17:51:26 everything closes at 2 Jun 12 17:51:40 muthu: it's that way nearly everywhere in the US Jun 12 17:51:55 i'm really surprise about this Jun 12 17:51:57 except for Vegas and Miami, basically. Jun 12 17:52:11 NY Jun 12 17:52:16 2? there are some that are open past that Jun 12 17:52:19 iirc they stop serving at 2 Jun 12 17:52:34 muthu: NY doesn't have any places that can serve alcohol past 2, AFAIK. Jun 12 17:53:08 hmm.. is this a recent trend or what? Jun 12 17:53:18 muthu: as i said, most of the US is this way. it's been that way forever. Jun 12 17:53:23 f00f-: some of them are open till 4, on some days Jun 12 17:53:34 like frid, sat Jun 12 17:53:40 yes Jun 12 17:53:45 oh so you're looking for something mid-week :) Jun 12 17:53:50 hehe Jun 12 17:54:03 f00f-: you know my problem right Jun 12 17:54:08 i cannot be taking bart at 2 Jun 12 17:54:15 that's a bit scary Jun 12 17:54:18 right Jun 12 17:54:21 it won't even run at that time Jun 12 17:54:25 it doesnt even run Jun 12 17:54:28 last train from the city is like 12:55am Jun 12 17:54:33 correct Jun 12 17:54:33 from embarcadero or so Jun 12 17:54:43 so if i stay, then i want to stay allnight Jun 12 17:54:44 jasta: muthu: NY doesn't have any places that can serve alcohol past 2, AFAIK. << that's another disappointing thing about the US, the bars close so early :(( Jun 12 17:54:58 romainguy: except for Vegas hhehe Jun 12 17:55:04 but yeah, it's sort of lame. Jun 12 17:55:07 but Vegas is in a different realm Jun 12 17:55:11 i have gotten used to it, being that i grew up here, so it doesn't bother me. Jun 12 17:55:24 i mean, it seems sensible ;) Jun 12 17:55:36 but i've always heard, that people party allnight in US Jun 12 17:55:49 in India, everything closes at 11 btw Jun 12 17:55:50 muthu: of course, most nights me and my friends go out we head back to someone's house and hit the bottle :) Jun 12 17:55:59 ha! Jun 12 17:56:22 house parties don't die down usually until about 4 or 5am Jun 12 17:57:02 Nevada - There is no closing time; bars may stay open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Jun 12 17:57:10 Alaska - 5 a.m.; while most cities restrict this further, some do not (primarily smaller Matanuska-Susitna Valley towns), and some villages are dry. Jun 12 17:57:15 nevada is the place to be in Jun 12 17:57:21 New York - Last call is 4 a.m. Jun 12 17:57:24 like i said muthu, vegas. Jun 12 17:57:30 jasta: right Jun 12 17:57:32 yeah pretty much Jun 12 17:57:33 oh NY is 4 Jun 12 17:57:54 muthu: it's not a federal law, so states are free to do what they want. it's just that most choose 2am. Jun 12 17:58:06 most as in, > 90% of them :) Jun 12 17:58:07 cities can override the law, too Jun 12 17:58:12 i don't understand why in US? Jun 12 17:58:14 can they? Jun 12 17:58:27 muthu: the US is not what you think it is, apparently ;) Jun 12 17:58:45 i guess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_call_(bar_term) Jun 12 17:59:20 jasta: hmm, right Jun 12 17:59:22 yeah anyone can override the laws. Jun 12 17:59:26 you know, in Utah, they don't serve beers >3% alcohol anywhere :) Jun 12 17:59:27 only to make it more strict though Jun 12 17:59:30 they cant make it any looser Jun 12 17:59:48 Utah, WHAT? Jun 12 17:59:57 like i said, Miami is also really late. like 4 or 5am i think Jun 12 17:59:59 just cross Utah off your itinerary completely muthu Jun 12 18:00:12 i'll never visit utah Jun 12 18:00:21 Utah is the worst state we have :) Jun 12 18:00:28 iirc, in utah you are only allowed *one* drink with your meal, no more Jun 12 18:00:28 pfft. Jun 12 18:00:29 Worse than ohio, if you can believe it. Jun 12 18:00:30 utah isnt bad. Jun 12 18:00:30 i like SF now Jun 12 18:00:37 Ohio is cool too Jun 12 18:00:39 i like ohio Jun 12 18:00:52 yeah, but you go to bed at 9:30, so of course you like Utah and Ohio :) Jun 12 18:00:57 haha Jun 12 18:00:58 yeah but where else have you been muthu? Jun 12 18:01:04 not on the weekends jasta. Jun 12 18:01:15 Ohio has kings island. Jun 12 18:01:16 NY, Atlanta, Houston, Chicago Jun 12 18:01:24 ATL Jun 12 18:01:30 i've been to atlanta recently Jun 12 18:01:34 god i hate that place Jun 12 18:01:40 2 of the 4 suck Jun 12 18:01:45 so you have SF NY and Chicago Jun 12 18:01:51 unless you like waffles and fried chicken at 4am. Jun 12 18:01:53 its more like SF and NY Jun 12 18:01:55 hah Jun 12 18:02:01 these are the 2 places i'll consider Jun 12 18:02:02 Chicago is pretty sweet Jun 12 18:02:12 *cough* Seattle *cough* Jun 12 18:02:14 i use to live close to there Jun 12 18:02:15 NY is so fast Jun 12 18:02:17 Seattle is nice too Jun 12 18:02:19 SF seems to have the balance Jun 12 18:02:31 i'm going to NYC soon-ish. Jun 12 18:02:34 SF - work & fun Jun 12 18:02:39 i enjoy visiting NYX Jun 12 18:02:39 NY - work, work, work Jun 12 18:02:40 NYC Jun 12 18:02:46 lol i cant live in SF or NYC Jun 12 18:02:48 too much for me. Jun 12 18:03:11 i would consider living in like Boston or Chicago Jun 12 18:03:11 i can live in both though Jun 12 18:03:38 i think id take chicago out of those choices. Jun 12 18:03:43 im not a big fan of boston Jun 12 18:03:54 but i dont like living in big cities that much Jun 12 18:04:23 i may end up in SF just because it's where all the cool jobs are :) Jun 12 18:04:33 jasta: exactly Jun 12 18:04:37 i wouldnt mind living in Boulder Jun 12 18:04:37 but of all the places i've visited, i definitely like Seattle the best :) Jun 12 18:06:02 i didn't even grow up here. i have always lived pretty far outside of Seattle, rarely visiting even. Jun 12 18:34:21 jasta: about your tokyo police club question yesterday Jun 12 18:34:30 they sound a lot like the arcade fire. Jun 12 18:34:42 but as for that song, I haven't heard that anywhere :p Jun 12 18:57:27 lame Jun 12 18:57:36 im listening to cloud cult now Jun 12 18:57:46 i love thse guys. especially their new album. really great stuff. Jun 12 18:58:45 http://xkcd.org/435/ -- teehee Jun 12 19:30:28 hmm, management just went into a 4 hour long meeting Jun 12 19:30:34 which means i could leave basically any time i want today :) Jun 12 19:30:49 except, for some reason, i feel like i can't choose now. Jun 12 19:56:04 i cant figure out how to patch war3 Jun 12 19:56:16 in wine that is Jun 12 19:58:17 just run the patch exe. Jun 12 19:58:22 what's it doing wrong? Jun 12 19:59:55 im not registered. Jun 12 19:59:59 so i dont have pm stuff Jun 12 20:00:23 you just sent me a msg. Jun 12 20:00:27 you got it? Jun 12 20:00:48 "lol" Jun 12 20:17:11 /MSG NickServ VERIFY REGISTER Dougie187 mfheiaxazmkj Jun 12 20:17:14 lol Jun 12 20:17:21 stupid space. Jun 12 20:19:54 time to change it:-) Jun 12 20:20:18 eh, it didnt have my password in it. Jun 12 20:20:21 thats just the confirmation code Jun 12 20:21:28 Dougie187, do you listen to rap a lot? Jun 12 20:21:37 hell no Jun 12 20:21:37 lol Jun 12 20:21:40 what's 187 mean in your username Jun 12 20:21:55 homicide. Jun 12 20:21:56 187 on the mutha f*&^% block Jun 12 20:22:00 yeah Jun 12 20:22:08 a friend in highschool gave me this screen name. Jun 12 20:22:11 so i kept it. Jun 12 20:22:16 not creative enough to change it Jun 12 20:22:45 all the short creative ones are taken Jun 12 20:22:57 like tethridge Jun 12 20:23:09 my normal username is tale Jun 12 20:23:21 it's been taken for something like 6 years Jun 12 20:23:47 thats too bad Jun 12 20:23:50 so you had to think up a new one Jun 12 20:24:05 it's just my name Jun 12 20:24:08 Trey Ethridge Jun 12 20:24:16 heh Jun 12 20:24:16 I'm really creative Jun 12 20:24:22 thats like my school username Jun 12 20:24:25 djacobsen Jun 12 20:24:31 or Jacobsed Jun 12 20:24:34 depending on which college. Jun 12 20:24:55 I thought you were tridge when you first joined :) Jun 12 20:25:31 I was tale_ for a while and then I figured I'd register Jun 12 21:59:59 Google IO sessions have been posted: http://www.helloandroid.com/node/585 Jun 12 22:06:19 thats cool that they did that Jun 12 22:06:51 yeah, now we know we don't have to pay for next year Jun 12 22:07:02 they didn't post keynote or fireside chats Jun 12 22:07:06 i would still go next year. i live close enough and it's good to meet folks Jun 12 22:07:26 i filled out the survey for I/O, my big complaint was that there were no engineers idling around the relevant booths to talk to Jun 12 22:07:36 all those fools from the Q&A session should have been mingling. Jun 12 22:07:41 yeah, I enjoyed it...to be honest the sessions weren't the highlights of the trip Jun 12 22:07:53 not for me either, but i fully expected that. Jun 12 22:07:59 yeah me too Jun 12 22:08:03 zhobbs: what were the highlight? Jun 12 22:08:24 meeting everyone, seeing sf Jun 12 22:09:04 yeah Jun 12 22:09:13 flight of the conchords Jun 12 22:10:17 someone familiar with ipod touch, where are movies located on filesystem Jun 12 22:10:28 http://sites.google.com/site/io/google-gears-for-mobile-power-up-your-mobile-web-app -- this session i missed but really wanted to see Jun 12 22:10:49 glad to have this way to watch it :) Jun 12 22:12:11 the sessions in those things are usually lame - the cool thing is to meet people and talk Jun 12 22:12:23 yeah Jun 12 22:12:25 exactly Jun 12 22:12:34 I only went to 2 sessions :) Jun 12 22:12:43 sooner or later someone's going to figure out a way to organize a conference to capitalize on that Jun 12 22:12:45 the highlight for me was meeting #android folks and also my "online" friends at Google i've never met in person before Jun 12 22:13:35 the sessions could have been more user chat friendly Jun 12 22:13:50 i mean the arrangement Jun 12 22:14:02 the Q&A at the end of them was torture Jun 12 22:14:14 oh yeah :) Jun 12 22:14:20 impossible to sit through Jun 12 22:14:23 people asked terrible questions ;) Jun 12 22:14:24 Q&A is nice Jun 12 22:14:27 they need to invite fewer non-devs Jun 12 22:14:30 it lets people interact Jun 12 22:14:50 my favorite was this old italian guy who was basically yelling at people who asked stupid questions :) Jun 12 22:14:53 he was great Jun 12 22:15:01 haha Jun 12 22:15:02 some hardcore python dev Jun 12 22:15:02 nice Jun 12 22:16:44 Alex Martelli? Jun 12 22:17:40 probably.yueah, thats definitely him :) Jun 12 22:17:51 sleep time for me...ciao Jun 12 22:17:52 err Jun 12 22:17:55 yeah*, :) Jun 12 22:19:12 There is a week long traning course for android in sept...I wonder how many people are actually going to be there: http://www.bignerdranch.com/classes/android.shtml Jun 12 22:19:27 $3500 including food/lodging Jun 12 22:20:12 seems weird to me Jun 12 22:20:52 that's for beginners, i guess Jun 12 22:21:26 yeah, I guess if you're boss says "we're going to have to port to android" and you don't know anything it' Jun 12 22:21:34 it would get you up to speed quick Jun 12 22:21:37 correct Jun 12 22:21:49 zhobbs: you can do that too - take some classes Jun 12 22:21:56 big money Jun 12 22:21:56 i just don't know what group of engineers can't follow the material online to learn the platform and use it effectively. Jun 12 22:22:15 if you have a full time job and that's what you do for 8 hours, it should not take very long at all. Jun 12 22:22:16 there's a big group which needs training Jun 12 22:22:24 within a month i was feeling very confident with android, and that was all part time. Jun 12 22:22:30 jasta: I agree...when I was in college I would only show up for class during tests Jun 12 22:22:36 i doubt anyone else was much different Jun 12 22:22:47 right, training will help you pick up faster Jun 12 22:22:53 learning from others Jun 12 22:23:09 sitting there having someone give me an overview of the subject is nothing compared to just reading the material Jun 12 22:23:23 i don't know that i agree, muthu. the android-dev group early on was certainly very active and helpful Jun 12 22:23:54 so paying someone to perform that function for you seemed entirely unnecessary. Jun 12 22:23:55 people just learn differently...I prefer reading to learn it Jun 12 22:24:06 right.. that's what experts do Jun 12 22:24:08 i think those types of classes are just for a certain group of people who are unfamiliar with all the other resources available. Jun 12 22:24:23 also for beginning programmers Jun 12 22:24:32 people are used to working in the Microsoft bubble, where documentation doesn't exist or is bad. Jun 12 22:24:38 people who are* Jun 12 22:24:43 I love that Jun 12 22:24:52 I have never heard anyone say the Android docs are mediocre Jun 12 22:25:08 either our docs are awesome, or they suck Jun 12 22:25:10 hehehehe Jun 12 22:25:19 i think they are quite good, though if they do not improve by launch i wil say that they suck :) Jun 12 22:25:54 the android docs are good Jun 12 22:26:01 said another way, they are very well done given the maturity of Android itself. they do have a long way to go, just like the platform itself. Jun 12 22:26:09 almost everyone were able to get up and running quickly Jun 12 22:26:35 yeah Jun 12 22:26:37 they are good when present...but some stuff is/was undocumented Jun 12 22:26:49 my biggest complaint with the documentation is that it starts out very strong on the core concepts, but becomes weak on the outset. also, worse still, it is wrong in some areas :) Jun 12 22:26:50 (ui customization) Jun 12 22:27:05 zhobbs: yeah that needs to get improved Jun 12 22:27:13 the worst documentated area is certainly the XML magic. Jun 12 22:27:19 the only thing i missed is the resources/id part Jun 12 22:27:19 that too Jun 12 22:27:21 if it wasn't for romain we'd have never figured out how to do selectors and all kinds of UI stuff Jun 12 22:27:27 all of us here understand it well at this point, but that understanding came despite the docs :) Jun 12 22:27:29 yeah the XML magic was a bit too much Jun 12 22:27:43 zhobbs: Romain and my reverse engineering the binary XML format :P Jun 12 22:27:49 yeah that's pretty much where we already knew we needed work :) Jun 12 22:27:58 jasta: you were a great help with your reverse engg thingy Jun 12 22:28:30 if the source code was available, it would have been perfect Jun 12 22:28:44 but in the end I guess it's good romain is spending endless hours getting an extra fps on listview instead of endless hours of docs Jun 12 22:29:28 zhobbs: most companies do not have their main engineers producing the lion's share of documentation btw :) Jun 12 22:29:41 the APIs and systems are usually designed at the level of the documentation first, then implemented to that spec. Jun 12 22:30:26 jasta: actually they're just waiting for their summer interns to show up and start documenting :) Jun 12 22:30:33 hehe ;) Jun 12 22:30:50 exactly Jun 12 22:31:24 but still, as I said originally Dan, the API docs are as mature and sophisticated as the platform itself. hopefully both improve simultaneously :) Jun 12 22:31:57 jasta: the worst documentated area is certainly the XML magic. << I'm sure some features have never been even seen by most Android developers Jun 12 22:32:00 to give credit, the docs were outstanding Jun 12 22:32:10 like how to draw a circular gradient in a donut shape from XML Jun 12 22:32:36 and to imagine the tabs were deprecated! Jun 12 22:32:44 almost all the apps were using tabs Jun 12 22:32:56 we have interactive XML documentation in the form of "hey romain, how do I..." Jun 12 22:33:13 romainguy: i'm certain of that as well, but that's just reinforcing my point :) Jun 12 22:33:20 I know Jun 12 22:33:31 well the problem is that we engineers need to sleep from time to time :) Jun 12 22:34:09 and you should be happy, a couple of weeks before M3, the View class didn't have any documentation for instance :) Jun 12 22:34:23 haha Jun 12 22:34:35 hah Jun 12 22:34:39 so, to segue for a minute, i am curious if Google intends to shift their team focus on Android after initial launch Jun 12 22:34:59 specifically, will the team restructure at this point in some way when it transfers to the open source community? Jun 12 22:35:46 I've been wondering about how the "direction" will be controlled Jun 12 22:36:13 the open source community will certainly feel entitled to "drive" the project, and until now the project has not had a structure that could support that. Jun 12 22:36:29 for example, there are few engineers interacting with the community. Jun 12 22:37:38 i hope that Google does not presume the community to be there just to submit patches for work Google wants done... Jun 12 22:38:24 jboss was very successful in that Jun 12 22:38:32 zhobbs: i'm betting this is one of those areas they can't discuss, which should have us preparing for disappointment. Jun 12 22:38:38 jasta: I think you are over estimating the input open source communities have Jun 12 22:38:53 android can take the jboss approach Jun 12 22:39:16 I highly doubt that will be any svn committing power to the public Jun 12 22:39:16 duey: in more conventional open source projects, the input is governed by your willingness and ability to work. Jun 12 22:39:18 for example Jun 12 22:39:29 duey: that would warrant forking. Jun 12 22:40:13 you can fork it all you want, 99% of the customers won't see your fork Jun 12 22:40:23 99. Jun 12 22:40:25 unless i am misunderstanding you. few projects have *general* SVN commit access. contributors are granted access as is necessary/appropriate. Jun 12 22:40:26 99.999% Jun 12 22:40:46 duey: perhaps i over-estimate the open source community, but you underestimate it. Jun 12 22:40:48 ok im just going on what ive heard on previous google techtalks about making things open source Jun 12 22:41:24 not many people really contribute in opensource projects Jun 12 22:41:31 there is nothing to preclude OHA members and other parties to adopt a forked version if it demonstrates great improvement in flexibility and power. Jun 12 22:41:33 ^ 100% correct Jun 12 22:41:39 er muthu is correct* Jun 12 22:41:50 yes, but muthu's statement has no bearing on what we are talking about. Jun 12 22:42:21 even if just 1 person contributes all of the open source code, that person should be given commit access and a place of similar standing among the Google engineers. Jun 12 22:42:24 google having some control over android would be good on the long run Jun 12 22:42:29 otherwise, the project is not in any way open. Jun 12 22:42:43 muthu: Having control is not the same as Having total control. Jun 12 22:43:03 right, so that's why they are open sourcing Jun 12 22:43:03 jasta: you have a very hostile stance Jun 12 22:43:08 Linus, for example, has control over Linux. But not total control. He does, afterall, have to grant others commit access. Jun 12 22:43:37 romainguy: Open source is not about asking others to do your work for free. Jun 12 22:43:58 jasta: it's also not about asking a company that invested a lot in a project to surrender it in the wild Jun 12 22:44:05 both approaches are extreme at best Jun 12 22:44:57 romainguy: The point is that the community will not be interested in some bastard version of what they are used to. Openness is about sharing control and privilege Jun 12 22:45:14 Not granting it wildly to the point that you destroy your IP, but sharing it regardless. Jun 12 22:46:06 It is not acceptable or beneficial to do less. If that is Google's intent, I think we can safely predict the failure of the project's openness. Few public contributors, and little outside innovation. Jun 12 22:46:22 ... Jun 12 22:46:35 I think you need to take a look at many open source projects around today Jun 12 22:46:41 agreed Jun 12 22:46:41 because most of them are private Jun 12 22:46:58 And even amongst big, popular Open Source projects, contributors are not that numerous Jun 12 22:47:05 yeah, you can't just gain committ access without really contributing Jun 12 22:47:08 Now I'm not defending either approach Jun 12 22:47:14 very few projects get a decent contributer base Jun 12 22:47:31 Please do not insult me by feeding me a lecture on what open source is. Jun 12 22:47:37 i for example have contributed to solr-lucene once Jun 12 22:47:47 the change i submitted was wanted by heaps of people Jun 12 22:48:02 but im not contributing anything else.. Jun 12 22:48:12 I am familiar with both administration of, and contribution toward, open source projects. Jun 12 22:48:25 jasta: And you're not the only one Jun 12 22:48:38 Most projects ultimately structure around few, but frequent, committers, and those committers expect the same level of privilege and opportunity as the others. Jun 12 22:48:51 Right Jun 12 22:49:01 So did Google announce they would not do that? No. Jun 12 22:49:05 Nothing was announced, at all Jun 12 22:49:11 Favoritism, privatization, and blind refusal to cooperate lead to forks. Jun 12 22:50:44 romainguy: Forgive me then for scaring easily, but the trust in this relationship as it stands has already been broken. Jun 12 22:51:03 It's no reason to spread FUD :) Jun 12 22:51:17 jasta: I think open-source projects are too varied to make many simple useful generalizations Jun 12 22:51:27 in the end, manufacturers will have the final say, so you won't have any control anyway, open or closed. Jun 12 22:51:39 The only one I can think of is that most of the work in any project is done by the few Jun 12 22:51:56 f00f-: That depends how you interpret control. Ubuntu is a fork of Debian, and is sponsored by Dell. Jun 12 22:52:21 Ubuntu had no ability to force that choice, but they encouraged it by being better :) Jun 12 22:52:36 well, having your 'patches' accepted into the main code stream, which would hit devices one day Jun 12 22:52:38 In general, I think that most people involved in an open source project are happy to tag along, so long as they feel that those in control are doing whats good by the project Jun 12 22:53:00 I don't think that most developers care beyond that Jun 12 22:53:18 Of course, the people on this channel aren't 'most developers' Jun 12 22:53:27 tomgibara: Perhaps, but do appreciate that there are certain hot-buttons that will quickly tear a project apart. Jun 12 22:53:37 like you jasta? :P Jun 12 22:53:39 I imagine the best approach would be to allow people to submit patches, have those patches reviewed by googlers and then get accepted/denied Jun 12 22:53:46 Arbitrarily refusing patches, for one. Jun 12 22:54:07 every projects needs a patch approval/rejection policy stated upfront, before people waste their time Jun 12 22:54:15 right Jun 12 22:54:30 f00f-: Of course, but every project also must ultimately appreciate that the status of patchers can eventually raise to committers. Jun 12 22:54:51 jasta: what about security reviews? code reviews? Jun 12 22:54:54 Just because you have commit access doesn't mean you can go around destroying the code. You can still have your work reviewed. Jun 12 22:55:28 duey: I personally reviewed code that was submitted to both of my major projects, specifically looking for security implications. Jun 12 22:55:44 I imagine that Google also has that same level of monitoring even for their engineers. Jun 12 22:55:54 If Romain commits a fix to adb that opens a local root exploit, SOMEONE will find it. Jun 12 22:56:23 Code reviews are very important at Google Jun 12 22:56:24 thus romain has no business in non-GUI code :) Jun 12 22:56:28 yes but its probably a lot easier to manage Jun 12 22:56:43 f00f-: I did checked in code in adb ;-) Jun 12 22:56:49 -ed Jun 12 22:56:49 duey: Neither situation is easy to manage. Companies and open source projects both have huge challenges. Jun 12 22:56:54 hehe Jun 12 22:56:58 Challenges that both overcome, if they are to be successful. Jun 12 22:57:15 f00f-: I said that because I knew that he was out of his element working in C/C++ code at one point :P Jun 12 22:57:26 ah heh Jun 12 22:57:35 I also spent the last 2 hours debugging C++ and ASM :p Jun 12 22:57:41 So screw you guys :) Jun 12 22:57:48 suck :( Jun 12 22:57:50 You see, Romain is probably a greater security risk than any of us would be :) Jun 12 22:57:56 oh my, you are beating all of our expectations! Jun 12 22:57:57 hahaha Jun 12 22:59:10 maybe I should stop fixing your bugs :) Jun 12 23:00:09 romainguy_: you should be like a android evangelist Jun 12 23:00:22 Anyway, I am getting to the point where I think it starts making sense for this community to demand some information about what's going on with Android. Jun 12 23:00:37 I phrased that very strangely, but still :) Jun 12 23:01:32 This BS that Jason pulled a couple of weeks ago was really bad, and I'm slightly annoyed with myself for dismissing it. Jun 12 23:02:12 jasta: what's the BS? Jun 12 23:02:39 Promising clarification and answers regarding the SDK situation, and delivering none. And then implicitly canceling that an announcement would be made at all, ever. Jun 12 23:03:14 He was placating, and I don't think I got as pissed off about it as I should have. Jun 12 23:03:57 jasta: or he wanted to give an announcement, and then was prevented from doing so? Jun 12 23:04:12 tomgibara: What he wants should be different from what he says, then. Jun 12 23:04:21 android support UMA? Jun 12 23:05:00 tomgibara: It is not his job to overcommit the company he represents. Jun 12 23:05:16 jasta: I totally agree Jun 12 23:05:29 my feeling is goog would have a lot of control over android.. may be that's not too bad Jun 12 23:05:36 But making mistakes happens doesn't it? Jun 12 23:05:37 matt444: If by UMA you mean bluetooth and wi-fi, then yes, but not in the current SDK. Jun 12 23:05:53 tomgibara: Sure, but don't be naive. That was no simple mistake. Jun 12 23:06:20 They have both been peddling the same shit that they need to be better at addressing the community, and that they will get information out from now on. Jun 12 23:06:22 jasta: I just try not to be judgemental Jun 12 23:06:23 And that there will be a road map. Jun 12 23:06:27 jasta: UMA is the carry over from gsm to wi-fi. don't think it has anything to do with bluetooth Jun 12 23:06:38 It should be obvious to everyone, including them, that it is not going to happen. Jun 12 23:07:04 (I always try to assume that I'm reasoning from a position of almost complete ignorance) Jun 12 23:07:04 matt444: we don't know yet. if you're not a developer, ew have no answers. consumer devices are months away. Jun 12 23:07:37 f00f-: ok, so this is a hardware issue then. thank you Jun 12 23:08:11 tomgibara: if you were going to assume that, why reason at all? Jun 12 23:08:49 jasta: I certainly have no idea what is happening inside the Android team, so judging the actions of individuals in that team is rather difficult Jun 12 23:08:54 anyway, if i'm being realistic, i should appreciate that Google doesn't care what I think :) Jun 12 23:09:04 It's easy to think that you know more than you do Jun 12 23:10:22 matt444: both: hardware support for 802.11 for example, plus software support for 3GPP GAN standard Jun 12 23:10:52 tomgibara: Sure, but there is a penalty to being too naive :) Jun 12 23:11:19 jasta: in my experience, fewer assumptions always improves the quality of my reasoning :-) Jun 12 23:11:55 I suppose my mistake here is not looking at Google's history :) Jun 12 23:12:02 jasta: I'm not being naive, I'm not saying that everyone's motives are good. I'm just saying we don't know. Jun 12 23:12:03 They have existing open source projects, I wonder how they are being managed. Jun 12 23:12:35 Perhaps that will tell us something about the direction Android takes. Jun 12 23:12:49 jasta: correct Jun 12 23:12:53 Or maybe I should just sit here on my lazy butt for 6 months. Jun 12 23:13:52 anyway, work day is over for me. later folks. Jun 12 23:14:43 wow, jasta gets off at 4 Jun 12 23:37:47 what a slacker Jun 12 23:40:44 total slacker :) Jun 12 23:41:09 http://picasaweb.google.com/developerday/GoogleIO200802/photo#5208556379229328258 Jun 12 23:42:41 Damn who is that ugly guy and he must be extremely lucky. :-0 Jun 12 23:43:38 HAHAHA Jun 12 23:46:37 that's a great snap Jun 12 23:47:23 maybe they will use it on the cover of next's years event. :-) Jun 12 23:47:56 i wonder where that picture of me that jason took went Jun 12 23:48:03 he snapped a photo right in the middle of me yelling at them Jun 12 23:48:07 so i must look really pissed off Jun 12 23:49:55 these are the favorites Jun 12 23:50:05 may be they have a full collection somewhere Jun 12 23:50:22 hahah yeah Jun 13 02:24:40 StreetView hit up my old neighborhood....it's weird having your house and your cars on the internet for everyone to see Jun 13 02:26:20 zhobbs: streetview is great Jun 13 02:26:51 its really useful Jun 13 02:31:01 Street view will never make it to Motrose. Jun 13 02:31:07 Montrose. Jun 13 02:32:24 Montrose Street view: Jun 13 02:34:19 dmoffett: where's montrose? Jun 13 02:34:41 Montrose, CO, USA Jun 13 02:35:03 why streetview will not make it there? Jun 13 02:35:16 Middle of no where. Jun 13 02:36:04 you never know... Jun 13 02:36:10 true Jun 13 02:37:08 haha, this is old but I just ran across it again and it cracks me up everytime: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fow7iUaKrq4 Jun 13 02:39:30 Have you ever seen IT Crowd from the UK? Jun 13 02:39:37 don't think so Jun 13 02:39:43 Comedy show that is pretty damn funny. Jun 13 02:39:51 oh yeah, I've heard of that Jun 13 02:45:38 If you like this clip it might be worth tracking down the rest. Jun 13 02:45:49 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHrxBuFCtWE Jun 13 02:46:07 i want to go to a comedy show in SF Jun 13 02:46:20 yeah, was watching some clips on youtube...looks pretty funny :) Jun 13 02:46:47 They subtitled one with unix command and internet acronyms. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jun 13 02:59:57 2008