**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jun 18 02:59:56 2008
Jun 18 07:22:49 <sleepydroid> good morning
Jun 18 12:37:00 <Dougie187> Good Morning Everyone
Jun 18 13:30:20 <michaelnovakjr> howdy
Jun 18 13:36:45 <Dougie187> hows it going?
Jun 18 13:41:57 <Dougie187> brb
Jun 18 13:55:07 <zhobbs_> http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/18/android-on-a-nokia-n95-captured-on-video/
Jun 18 13:57:23 <Zba_Phy> m3 :/
Jun 18 13:58:34 <Dougie187> that has to be the worst video in the whole world.
Jun 18 13:58:43 <Dougie187> it looks like he took it with a cell phone
Jun 18 13:58:48 <Dougie187> or a web cam
Jun 18 14:03:52 <michaelnovakjr> any news on an SDK?
Jun 18 14:05:46 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 18 14:05:49 <Dougie187> SDK?
Jun 18 14:05:56 <Dougie187> i dont even know what that is anymore
Jun 18 14:06:26 <Dougie187> (aka, no)
Jun 18 14:12:00 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jun 18 14:12:34 <michaelnovakjr> i am working on another software project while waiting for the new sdk
Jun 18 14:14:04 <Dougie187> oh yeah?
Jun 18 14:14:08 <Dougie187> for android?
Jun 18 14:14:12 <michaelnovakjr> nope
Jun 18 14:14:22 <Dougie187> whats it for?
Jun 18 14:14:26 <michaelnovakjr> i have put android on hold while waiting for the new sdk
Jun 18 15:59:49 <michaelnovakjr> yo dougie187
Jun 18 16:12:26 <jasta> hey
Jun 18 16:21:18 <michaelnovakjr> howdy jasta
Jun 18 16:53:12 <michaelnovakjr> http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2567
Jun 18 16:53:24 <michaelnovakjr> ^^ Fennec
Jun 18 16:58:53 <michaelnovakjr> very quiet in here
Jun 18 16:59:14 * eido sneezes.
Jun 18 16:59:57 <michaelnovakjr> howdy
Jun 18 17:01:11 <yonkeltron> michaelnovakjr: interesting post
Jun 18 17:04:33 <michaelnovakjr> yea, i hate the iphone
Jun 18 17:07:45 <yonkeltron> michaelnovakjr: so do i....i dislike apple in general though
Jun 18 17:08:29 <michaelnovakjr> for anyone who is interested, i am creating androidnerds.com to host android development projects.
Jun 18 17:08:32 <jasta> trendy crap :P
Jun 18 17:08:45 <michaelnovakjr> there will be a choice of svn, git, and have Trac integration.
Jun 18 17:09:17 <michaelnovakjr> and a project email address @androidnerds.com
Jun 18 17:09:56 <yonkeltron> michaelnovakjr: fascinating...
Jun 18 17:10:02 <jasta> what's wrong w/ Google code? :)
Jun 18 17:10:11 * yonkeltron is waiting on the integration of non-java languages
Jun 18 17:10:32 <jasta> yonkeltron: you will be waiting for quite a long time.  someone will have to do quite a lot of work to make that possible
Jun 18 17:10:39 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, its not Trac :)
Jun 18 17:10:59 <muthu> google code has poor project management integration
Jun 18 17:11:10 <michaelnovakjr> Trac is excellent
Jun 18 17:11:10 <jasta> that's actually true
Jun 18 17:11:18 <jasta> though i have not used Trac before
Jun 18 17:11:30 <michaelnovakjr> you should check it out
Jun 18 17:12:04 <michaelnovakjr> it has great integration of your svn and tickets, milestones, roadmap, change history page, and a wiki
Jun 18 17:12:22 <muthu> michaelnovakjr:  androidnerds, cool name
Jun 18 17:12:33 <michaelnovakjr> gracias
Jun 18 17:12:45 <yonkeltron> jasta: i've heard that the jruby folks are mulling it over...
Jun 18 17:12:55 * Guest20107 hops in and hugs trac
Jun 18 17:13:16 <jasta> yonkeltron: sure, but without a proper release with source, no serious porting effort can go anywhere.
Jun 18 17:13:21 <michaelnovakjr> i'll offer hosting services free for open source projects
Jun 18 17:13:45 <michaelnovakjr> ruby is a terrible language
Jun 18 17:14:13 <jasta> yonkeltron: the Android platform is tightly dependant on Java code paths, so a porting effort of another language will require extensive bindings to access that functionality
Jun 18 17:14:25 <jasta> and as i said, without a proper release, that project can't happen
Jun 18 17:14:57 <romainguy> jasta: you can always port one of the many interpreters written in Java
Jun 18 17:15:11 <romainguy> there's also a bunch of compilers that output bytecode from other languages
Jun 18 17:15:47 <michaelnovakjr> romainguy, i just don't see the need for something like that.
Jun 18 17:15:58 <romainguy> michaelnovakjr: I'm not saying I agree
Jun 18 17:16:03 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 18 17:16:17 <romainguy> I'm just saying that if you really really really don't want to use the Java programming language, there are alternatives that may work
Jun 18 17:16:20 <jasta> romainguy: i would imagine that the best approach would be to create a dalvik compiler for other languages, and that in particular would be troublesome without better documentation and/or source code.
Jun 18 17:16:29 <romainguy> now to me a language is just a tool, so I really don't care
Jun 18 17:16:49 <romainguy> jasta: there's no need to if there's already a Java bytecode compiler for the said language
Jun 18 17:17:05 <romainguy> JRuby, Jython and Groovy know how to output Java bytecode for instance
Jun 18 17:17:08 <romainguy> you can just dex that
Jun 18 17:17:17 <jasta> oh, i was unaware that such a thing existed.
Jun 18 17:17:41 <romainguy> here is a nice list of interpreters/compilers for the JVM: http://www.is-research.de/info/vmlanguages/
Jun 18 17:18:19 <michaelnovakjr> i don't see something like JRuby being widely used..... those ruby creators are morons
Jun 18 17:18:38 <michaelnovakjr> java is not hard to use
Jun 18 17:18:41 <zhobbs_> I think down the road we'll see C apps, probably mostly UI'less ones
Jun 18 17:18:46 <jasta> i agree with romain in general, that preference alone is an insufficient reason to need such a porting effort.
Jun 18 17:18:52 <michaelnovakjr> yes
Jun 18 17:19:00 <romainguy> I mean, if Java was a terrible language I'd understand
Jun 18 17:19:09 <michaelnovakjr> what gain would JRuby give you?
Jun 18 17:19:11 <romainguy> but it's a good language, not perfect or not the best, but still a good language
Jun 18 17:19:15 <jasta> however, preference isn't always the reason that ports are desirable.  sometimes, for example, large existing code bases are simply not available in a certain language.
Jun 18 17:19:26 <zhobbs_> I could see some useful C/C++ demons coming out
Jun 18 17:19:34 <romainguy> jasta: if you need to port a "large" code base on a phone you're in trouble already :))
Jun 18 17:19:48 <jasta> also, the ability to micro-optimize is sometimes necessary, requiring moving back to a language that has a more subtle expressive power.
Jun 18 17:20:32 <michaelnovakjr> there's a lot of important stuff running on Java
Jun 18 17:21:27 <jasta> i personally see no immediate need for any of this, but i can appreciate that there are some folks who are not simply insane when wanting other options.
Jun 18 17:22:01 <michaelnovakjr> no need at all, we should just work on a new sdk for now
Jun 18 17:22:04 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 18 17:22:29 <jasta> hehe
Jun 18 17:26:53 <jasta> man, GWT is so neat :)
Jun 18 17:27:07 <michaelnovakjr> totally, i am using it at work
Jun 18 17:27:07 <zhobbs_> jasta: you been using it for real? or just playing?
Jun 18 17:27:12 <jasta> for real
Jun 18 17:27:19 <michaelnovakjr> setup external registration process for us using it
Jun 18 17:27:23 <zhobbs_> cool, just was wondering if it breaks down at some point
Jun 18 17:27:39 <jasta> using it for a project at work, basically just whipping up some simple interface to an internal process our customer service dept goes through
Jun 18 17:27:45 <michaelnovakjr> zhobbs_ been running here for a few months
Jun 18 17:27:52 <michaelnovakjr> in production
Jun 18 17:27:57 <jasta> zhobbs_: well, it certainly has limitations that are not obvious at first
Jun 18 17:28:18 <michaelnovakjr> yea, i actually modified the source for a few parts
Jun 18 17:28:19 <jasta> but one of the coolest things it has is a native GWT-specific RPC interface that lets you implement server-side RPC services and invoke them intuitively from the client.
Jun 18 17:28:24 <zhobbs_> I was just wondering if browser compatibility issues for more complex apps or other limitations, etc
Jun 18 17:28:36 <jasta> that makes it very easy to develop some stupid throw away app in record time
Jun 18 17:29:00 <zhobbs_> cool, I'll have to check it out next time I need something like that
Jun 18 17:29:04 <jasta> it doesn't feel like it's a good fit for "any web app"
Jun 18 17:29:12 <zhobbs_> that was the only thing I learned from the IO keynote
Jun 18 17:29:21 <jasta> but there seems to be a certain class of apps, especially intranet type stuff, that can benefit tremendously from it
Jun 18 17:29:29 <zhobbs_> I had never heard of it and I was impressed during the keynote
Jun 18 17:29:39 <michaelnovakjr> its impressive
Jun 18 17:29:59 <jasta> again, i think the most compelling feature is the native RPC stuff.
Jun 18 17:30:11 <michaelnovakjr> indeed
Jun 18 17:30:16 <zhobbs_> jasta: and that's all client javascript to java backend?
Jun 18 17:30:17 <jasta> makes communicating between client and server very rich and intuitive, much unlike the current way that AJAX works.
Jun 18 17:30:39 <jasta> zhobbs_: well, to the programmer it's all Java, but yes the client code is translated, where the server code remains as-is.
Jun 18 17:31:01 <zhobbs_> yeah, I'll check it out
Jun 18 17:31:10 <jasta> any translated code has to be written carefully, most of the Java library is unavailable to you on the client side.
Jun 18 17:31:33 <zhobbs_> I'll have to get java support on my server though..guess that's not a big deal
Jun 18 17:33:21 <jasta> nah, just toss in tomcat
Jun 18 17:33:39 <jasta> the GWT dev environment bundles tomcat for debug/testing, and your server environment can deploy it very easily that way
Jun 18 17:33:51 <michaelnovakjr> ew tomact
Jun 18 17:33:54 <michaelnovakjr> tomcat
Jun 18 17:33:59 <jasta> like i said, i dont think its a good fit for any or possibly even most current web apps
Jun 18 17:34:09 <jasta> well, it does not require tomcat.
Jun 18 17:34:15 <michaelnovakjr> nope
Jun 18 17:34:27 <michaelnovakjr> i dropped it on a server that wasn't running tomcat
Jun 18 17:34:37 <jasta> but there certainly is a class of applications that GWT can support very well
Jun 18 17:34:51 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: well then you didn't have the RPC stuff in use ;)
Jun 18 17:34:57 <michaelnovakjr> no
Jun 18 17:35:09 <zhobbs_> can you do the ajax stuff without the rpc?
Jun 18 17:35:29 <jasta> zhobbs_: yeah, you just need to use some other, more traditional method for communication
Jun 18 17:35:35 <jasta> like JSON, XML, whatever.
Jun 18 17:35:40 <zhobbs_> oh ok
Jun 18 17:35:43 <michaelnovakjr> the json support is cool
Jun 18 17:35:58 <michaelnovakjr> the dom class was a big help as well
Jun 18 17:36:02 <zhobbs_> I asumed rpc meant xml rpc
Jun 18 17:36:16 <michaelnovakjr> although for the version i was running i did modify the dom class
Jun 18 17:36:24 <jasta> zhobbs_: No, their RPC approach is something they support atop all the traditional methods
Jun 18 17:36:58 <jasta> Particular to GWT, that is able to serialize and communicate native Java objects, with function call semantics and proxy stubs.
Jun 18 17:37:21 <jasta> so that from either side, client or server, it appears as though you are just invoking native Java calls to a class you've defined.
Jun 18 17:38:10 <jasta> given that GWT is open source, i suspect other platforms will create compatible clients as well
Jun 18 17:38:16 <jasta> so that your HTTP service can be reused even outside of GWT
Jun 18 17:48:02 <michaelnovakjr> zimbra is awesome
Jun 18 18:01:28 <jasta> how well does it integrate with Outlook?
Jun 18 18:09:17 <jasta> oh that's the professional version ;)
Jun 18 18:09:22 <jasta> i looked at buying that a while ago actually
Jun 18 18:09:25 <jasta> i hate Exchange so much :)
Jun 18 18:28:40 <f00f-> zimbra is bloated and takes over your entire system
Jun 18 18:28:45 <f00f-> but it looks good :)
Jun 18 18:28:57 <f00f-> it's free, too
Jun 18 18:29:26 <f00f-> and i can't believe jasta just admitted he uses outlook
Jun 18 18:32:05 <Dougie187> sounds like a party in here
Jun 18 18:32:59 <f00f-> it's about to get bumpin
Jun 18 18:33:24 <Dougie187> well im glad i didnt miss that.
Jun 18 18:33:44 <f00f-> ... indeed
Jun 18 18:47:17 <jasta> f00f-: of course i do, Outlook is a necessity in a lot of business environments.
Jun 18 18:48:03 <jasta> however, i use vmware to access it :)
Jun 18 18:48:30 <jasta> but it's not hard to see why Outlook and Exchange are important, even if sucky and terrible.
Jun 18 18:49:44 <michaelnovakjr> i run my own zimbra server and it is fantastic
Jun 18 18:49:48 <michaelnovakjr> the web interface is nice
Jun 18 18:50:02 <michaelnovakjr> and the server is really easy to setup
Jun 18 18:52:34 <michaelnovakjr> jasta what do you do in Outlook that you can't in thunderbird
Jun 18 19:04:20 <jasta> calendar integration (specifically, with groupware software)
Jun 18 19:04:46 <jasta> also, Thunderbird e-mail searches really suck, and Google Desktop for Linux is lame and irritating.
Jun 18 19:05:31 <zhobbs_> kmail ftw
Jun 18 19:05:32 <Dougie187> cant you use sunbird for the calender?
Jun 18 19:05:57 <Dougie187> lol can you can use gmail with imap for searching
Jun 18 19:06:06 <michaelnovakjr> outlook mail searches suck
Jun 18 19:06:27 <jasta> yeah, but Google Desktop is great :)
Jun 18 19:06:34 <jasta> anyway, i'm looking through the GWT blog...
Jun 18 19:06:48 <jasta> and i'm noticing that they post a lot, spotlighting projects or interesting things that the community is doing
Jun 18 19:07:04 <jasta> that seems like a good format to copy for Android.
Jun 18 19:07:42 <michaelnovakjr> sure, once there is an android
Jun 18 19:08:05 <jasta> true enough, it's really like Android doesn't exist anymore :)
Jun 18 19:08:09 <zhobbs_> yeah, they didn't even update teh blog with the IO videos
Jun 18 19:08:20 <zhobbs_> and the advocates disapeared
Jun 18 19:08:28 <michaelnovakjr> and this channel proves it too
Jun 18 19:08:39 <jasta> the forums also are very quiet and not especially helpfulto anyone
Jun 18 19:08:43 <michaelnovakjr> no one here discusses technical android stuff any more
Jun 18 19:08:50 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 18 19:08:56 <Dougie187> none of the google people are around except romainguy
Jun 18 19:09:03 <Dougie187> i havent seen dan in like 2 weeks
Jun 18 19:09:05 <Dougie187> and jason since before that
Jun 18 19:09:50 <zhobbs_> there's only 50 active projects
Jun 18 19:10:11 <michaelnovakjr> i can say i am certainly not active at the moment
Jun 18 19:15:03 <Dougie187> i tried out invoker jasta
Jun 18 19:15:05 <zhobbs_> round 1 was so much better, it was my only job then...now I have to work all day and then android at night
Jun 18 19:15:23 <muthu> zhobbs_: wonder how you manage it
Jun 18 19:15:37 <zhobbs_> zhobbs_: you didn't have a day job?
Jun 18 19:15:45 <michaelnovakjr> hmmm, that sounds like my android round 1
Jun 18 19:15:46 <Dougie187> i have to play games all day and cook and play games all night.
Jun 18 19:15:49 <Dougie187> its very tiring.
Jun 18 19:15:56 <michaelnovakjr> work all day then go home to work on android
Jun 18 19:16:17 <zhobbs_> michaelnovakjr: wears you down
Jun 18 19:16:27 <zhobbs_> I'm sure that's how it was for most people though
Jun 18 19:17:34 <zhobbs_> muthu: you still in SF?
Jun 18 19:18:07 <muthu> yeah
Jun 18 19:18:23 <Dougie187> till june 30th right?
Jun 18 19:18:53 <zhobbs_> muthu: better get back and see the family
Jun 18 19:19:03 <Dougie187> lol, he doesnt care about his family
Jun 18 19:19:06 <muthu> can't wait
Jun 18 19:19:08 <Dougie187> all he cares about is buying a house in SF
Jun 18 19:19:15 <muthu> now i really want to go back
Jun 18 19:19:20 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 18 19:19:31 <muthu> and be with the family
Jun 18 19:19:49 <michaelnovakjr> haha, muthu why are you in SF so long?
Jun 18 19:20:07 <zhobbs_> family will understand...as long as you make $275k
Jun 18 19:20:11 <Dougie187> he wanted to be gay for a month.
Jun 18 19:20:16 <muthu> haha
Jun 18 19:20:24 <Dougie187> no better place the SF to do that.
Jun 18 19:20:29 <muthu> i must agree, it's too long
Jun 18 19:20:29 <Dougie187> then*
Jun 18 19:20:39 <michaelnovakjr> muthu, but why there so long?
Jun 18 19:20:47 <muthu> mostly because of the airline screwup
Jun 18 19:21:05 <muthu> these were the dates available, when i booked
Jun 18 19:21:06 <Dougie187> ?
Jun 18 19:21:12 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 18 19:21:15 <Dougie187> a month apart?
Jun 18 19:21:23 <muthu> zhobbs_: oh yeah, 275 will set it right ;)
Jun 18 19:21:37 <muthu> Dougie187: yeah, india is screwed up in  a lot of ways
Jun 18 19:21:46 <Dougie187> tell me about it.
Jun 18 19:21:49 <muthu> and the airlines are one of them
Jun 18 19:21:58 <Dougie187> what are the other ways?
Jun 18 19:22:19 <zhobbs_> muthu: you going to move to the states?
Jun 18 19:22:30 <muthu> zhobbs_: its all open
Jun 18 19:22:49 <muthu> it depends
Jun 18 19:23:11 <muthu> i can't come back and work for a company
Jun 18 19:23:39 <muthu> love startups
Jun 18 19:24:51 <michaelnovakjr> muthu so what have you been doing all month? io was only a few days?
Jun 18 19:24:55 <zhobbs_> I'll be trying very hard to work for myself as soon as possible...don't have any motivation to earn money for others
Jun 18 19:24:57 <michaelnovakjr> hanging with the sailors?
Jun 18 19:25:28 <muthu> hehe
Jun 18 19:25:33 <muthu> there's p2 work michaelnovakjr
Jun 18 19:26:12 <michaelnovakjr> damn, i would have said... maybe next year IO :) thats a long time for such a short conference
Jun 18 19:26:16 <Dougie187> all the submissions are due soon right?
Jun 18 19:26:18 <muthu> michaelnovakjr:  what do you think p1 winners are doing? hanging with sailors ;)
Jun 18 19:26:38 <Dougie187> june 30th?
Jun 18 19:26:40 <muthu> yeah due soon
Jun 18 19:26:44 <michaelnovakjr> muthu not all of them are hanging in sf
Jun 18 19:26:57 <zhobbs_> Dougie187: july 28
Jun 18 19:26:58 <Dougie187> yeah half way around the world for a month?
Jun 18 19:26:59 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 18 19:27:00 <Dougie187> oh
Jun 18 19:27:04 <Dougie187> thats a lot longer then i though
Jun 18 19:30:07 <michaelnovakjr> muthu, should have at least went to wwdc and made a trip out of it
Jun 18 19:30:45 <muthu> not interested in apple
Jun 18 19:30:47 <muthu> for some reason
Jun 18 19:31:22 <muthu> i like sergey better than steve :)
Jun 18 19:31:29 <michaelnovakjr> would have been something to do
Jun 18 19:32:00 <muthu> honestly now i'm bored with sf
Jun 18 19:32:15 <michaelnovakjr> i would be too!
Jun 18 19:32:26 <muthu> 15 days is the right timeframe
Jun 18 19:32:29 <zhobbs_> muthu: you been working a lot though?
Jun 18 19:32:54 <muthu> zhobbs_: its a mix yeah
Jun 18 19:33:16 <jasta> muthu: i told you, a month is a chore, a week or two is a vacation.
Jun 18 19:33:22 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jun 18 19:33:26 <muthu> jasta: you were right
Jun 18 19:33:59 <muthu> zhobbs_: you need to do a startup
Jun 18 19:34:09 <jasta> it's like you're living there, without all the luxuries of family, friends, and stuff to keep you busy :)
Jun 18 19:34:19 <muthu> jasta: exactly
Jun 18 19:34:29 <zhobbs_> muthu: I will
Jun 18 19:34:34 <muthu> there's no place like home :)
Jun 18 19:34:42 <muthu> zhobbs_: you can do it
Jun 18 19:34:57 <muthu> and let me know when you do it
Jun 18 19:35:07 <michaelnovakjr> muthu, why'd you go with this in mind?
Jun 18 19:35:25 <jasta> muthu: what level of education do you have?  that matters a lot if you intend to come to the states and get sponsored for a work visa :)
Jun 18 19:35:39 <muthu> jasta: i have a masters here
Jun 18 19:35:42 <zhobbs_> muthu: after android I'll be focusing on designing niche electronic devices
Jun 18 19:35:46 <muthu> i don't have a problem getting work here
Jun 18 19:36:09 <muthu> zhobbs_: cool, sounds fun
Jun 18 19:36:15 <jasta> muthu: that's only a start if you're trying to live here permanently :)
Jun 18 19:36:24 <jasta> the US, apparently, really sucks about this.
Jun 18 19:36:30 <michaelnovakjr> yes it does
Jun 18 19:36:34 <muthu> jasta: i was here 10yrs then left
Jun 18 19:36:43 <muthu> so thinking about it now, will suck bigtime for me
Jun 18 19:36:59 <jasta> my friend Dmitri has been denied a work visa twice now, and is 6 months away from getting his masters.
Jun 18 19:37:11 <muthu> i know, i went through all
Jun 18 19:37:15 <jasta> the only reason he's getting it is because he was denied and had no choice.
Jun 18 19:37:19 <jasta> muthu: you've had a work visa here?
Jun 18 19:37:21 <muthu> i was here when there were pretty much no rules
Jun 18 19:37:51 <muthu> i had F1 (students), H1B (work) and B1 (business)
Jun 18 19:38:00 <muthu> you can get all kinds of visas
Jun 18 19:38:16 <muthu> all my friends are US citizens now
Jun 18 19:38:53 <muthu> zhobbs_: you excited about tunewiki?
Jun 18 19:39:17 <zhobbs_> yep
Jun 18 19:39:29 <muthu> great
Jun 18 19:39:34 <muthu> adding new stuff, huh ;)
Jun 18 19:40:20 <zhobbs_> yeah, it's coming along pretty good
Jun 18 19:40:35 <muthu> cool
Jun 18 19:41:49 <michaelnovakjr> are you guys working with an NDA SDK?
Jun 18 19:41:55 <muthu> yeah
Jun 18 19:42:19 <zhobbs_> yeah, all top 50 are
Jun 18 19:42:29 <zhobbs_> don't think they have a choice
Jun 18 19:42:38 <michaelnovakjr> i still can't get over how stupid that is
Jun 18 19:42:47 <muthu> what?
Jun 18 19:42:55 <michaelnovakjr> for at least two months all other developers have to wait
Jun 18 19:43:11 <muthu> oh yeah
Jun 18 19:43:25 <michaelnovakjr> i can't see this having a good effect on the platform
Jun 18 19:44:01 <zhobbs_> hopefully there will be a public one out soon
Jun 18 19:44:54 <michaelnovakjr> yea, i've so much interest that it would take some pretty cool new features to draw me back in
Jun 18 19:45:02 <michaelnovakjr> i've lost so much interest*
Jun 18 19:45:47 <zhobbs_> like what?
Jun 18 19:46:10 <michaelnovakjr> a more feature complete sdk that isn't restricting
Jun 18 19:46:26 <muthu> brb
Jun 18 19:52:38 <jasta> much better emulation would be a big win for me.
Jun 18 19:52:53 <jasta> bluetooth, wi-fi, camera, etc.
Jun 18 19:55:46 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jun 18 19:55:49 <Dougie187> i want an SDK that will make my car fly
Jun 18 19:56:01 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 18 19:56:03 <genericprodigy> iPointlessSDK?
Jun 18 19:56:14 <Dougie187> ohh, whos this newcomer?
Jun 18 19:56:38 <genericprodigy> Geek with opinions and sarcasm.
Jun 18 19:56:43 <Dougie187> cool.
Jun 18 19:56:45 <michaelnovakjr> developer?
Jun 18 19:57:00 <genericprodigy> Yep.
Jun 18 19:57:11 <michaelnovakjr> good
Jun 18 19:57:22 <michaelnovakjr> because we aren't talking about developing at the moment
Jun 18 19:57:23 <Dougie187> are you in the top 50?
Jun 18 19:57:25 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 18 19:57:36 <Dougie187> ohh michaelnovakjr do you play warcraft 3 at all?
Jun 18 19:57:57 <michaelnovakjr> i've played world of warcraft... but that is about it.
Jun 18 19:58:02 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 18 19:58:04 <Dougie187> WoW is boring.
Jun 18 19:58:12 <Dougie187> i get bored with it after about 10 days
Jun 18 19:58:23 <Dougie187> the trial versions usually work for me.
Jun 18 19:58:26 <Dougie187> then i dont want to play it anymore
Jun 18 19:58:27 <zhobbs_> 10 days non-stop play?
Jun 18 19:58:33 <zhobbs_> that's how most people play it
Jun 18 19:58:44 <michaelnovakjr> ye
Jun 18 19:58:45 <michaelnovakjr> a
Jun 18 19:58:59 <Dougie187> lol no.
Jun 18 19:59:02 <Dougie187> 10 days, period.
Jun 18 19:59:21 <michaelnovakjr> i changed my paypal account and then realized i still had a wow account :)
Jun 18 19:59:27 <michaelnovakjr> when they couldn't bill me
Jun 18 19:59:39 <Dougie187> hah
Jun 18 20:00:16 <michaelnovakjr> if anyone is looking to buy a MacBook Pro let me know.... i'm selling mine!
Jun 18 20:00:32 <Dougie187> becauase it sucks?
Jun 18 20:00:40 <michaelnovakjr> nah
Jun 18 20:00:47 <Dougie187> thats why i would be selling it
Jun 18 20:00:49 <michaelnovakjr> because i want a linux friendly laptop now
Jun 18 20:01:42 <Dougie187> what are you looking at?
Jun 18 20:02:05 <michaelnovakjr> probably an xps
Jun 18 20:02:09 <genericprodigy> Eee 901 :)
Jun 18 20:02:35 <Dougie187> hey michaelnovakjr if you like WoW http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/tournament/index.xml
Jun 18 20:03:01 <michaelnovakjr> cool!
Jun 18 20:03:13 <michaelnovakjr> i'm looking at a 13 inch laptop
Jun 18 20:03:16 <michaelnovakjr> not a 15 anymore
Jun 18 20:03:44 <Dougie187> i want to get a Thinkpad r61 14.1'
Jun 18 20:04:05 <michaelnovakjr> i had a thinkpad for a while. they aren't so bad
Jun 18 20:04:28 <Dougie187> i have a toshiba r10 right now
Jun 18 20:04:30 <Dougie187> its pretty cool
Jun 18 20:04:41 <michaelnovakjr> what are you running on it
Jun 18 20:05:12 <Dougie187> ubuntu
Jun 18 20:05:24 <michaelnovakjr> ah, i switched
Jun 18 20:05:26 <Dougie187> i have a dual boot though, like 8 gigs for XP.
Jun 18 20:05:30 <Dougie187> thats just for games though
Jun 18 20:05:38 <michaelnovakjr> i am running mandriva now
Jun 18 20:05:43 <michaelnovakjr> much more pleasant
Jun 18 20:05:46 <Dougie187> ive heard good things about mandriva
Jun 18 20:05:54 <michaelnovakjr> its nice
Jun 18 20:05:59 <michaelnovakjr> i am using it with xfce4
Jun 18 20:06:33 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 18 20:06:36 <Dougie187> im using gnome.
Jun 18 20:06:43 <Dougie187> not really for any reason.
Jun 18 20:06:46 <Dougie187> sometimes i turn on compiz
Jun 18 20:07:00 <michaelnovakjr> i use compiz and an emerald theme that i like alot
Jun 18 20:07:08 <Dougie187> thats cool.
Jun 18 20:07:14 <Dougie187> im trying to talk my mom and brother into using ubuntu
Jun 18 20:07:15 <Dougie187> from xp
Jun 18 20:07:15 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 18 20:07:24 <Dougie187> im trying to convert them
Jun 18 20:07:25 <michaelnovakjr> haha, good luck!
Jun 18 20:07:35 <Dougie187> and my big brother is being a douche and trying to get them to stay with xp
Jun 18 20:07:36 <michaelnovakjr> its a bit buggy for my tastes
Jun 18 20:07:41 <Dougie187> he just complains about OOo
Jun 18 20:07:46 <Dougie187> ive never had any issues.
Jun 18 20:07:56 <Dougie187> and compared to fedora it's a dream
Jun 18 20:07:58 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 18 20:08:18 <michaelnovakjr> if i leave my ubuntu box on for a certain time period stuff stops working
Jun 18 20:08:24 <michaelnovakjr> like audio, web browser, terminal
Jun 18 20:08:26 <Dougie187> thats weird.
Jun 18 20:08:46 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jun 18 20:08:59 <michaelnovakjr> so i switched to mandriva and i haven't had any problems at all
Jun 18 20:09:30 <Dougie187> thats cool.
Jun 18 20:09:50 <michaelnovakjr> totally
Jun 18 20:09:59 <michaelnovakjr> it picked up my nvidia right off the bat
Jun 18 20:10:01 <Dougie187> i was looking into mandriva a while ago.
Jun 18 20:10:04 <michaelnovakjr> when booting the live cd
Jun 18 20:10:08 <Dougie187> but i just stayed with ubuntu
Jun 18 20:15:04 <f00f-> jasta: yeah i am stuck with lotus notes. sometimes there is no choice :)
Jun 18 20:15:53 <f00f-> muthu when are you going back
Jun 18 20:32:19 <f00f-> interesting poll on LinkedIn front page
Jun 18 20:32:31 <f00f-> so little confidence for android
Jun 18 20:32:41 <michaelnovakjr> can you blame them
Jun 18 20:32:55 <f00f-> wtf, i am being owned by some smell
Jun 18 20:32:57 <f00f-> it stinks
Jun 18 20:33:22 <f00f-> i seriously hate AC systems
Jun 18 20:33:25 <f00f-> circulates everything
Jun 18 20:33:34 <f00f-> yeah i was at a mobile thing last week
Jun 18 20:33:41 <f00f-> one of the founders of linkedin was there
Jun 18 20:33:47 <f00f-> i forget what he was talking about though
Jun 18 20:34:09 <michaelnovakjr> i'm losing confidence in android
Jun 18 20:34:17 <muthu> michaelnovakjr: why?
Jun 18 20:34:25 <muthu> android is already changing the mobile world
Jun 18 20:34:40 <michaelnovakjr> how muthu?
Jun 18 20:34:55 <muthu> look at iphone prices now
Jun 18 20:35:07 <muthu> this i'm sure would not happen if android is not looming over apple
Jun 18 20:35:47 <michaelnovakjr> i don't think android is the thing apple is worried about
Jun 18 20:36:02 <michaelnovakjr> blackberry is the reason not android
Jun 18 20:36:48 <michaelnovakjr> i have not heard apple acknowledge android existed
Jun 18 20:38:23 <michaelnovakjr> hey Dougie187, this is my desktop..... http://penguinsoftware.org/mydesktop.png
Jun 18 20:39:23 <f00f-> blackberry is an untapped market
Jun 18 20:39:33 <f00f-> definitely need to unleash something for those devices
Jun 18 20:39:51 <f00f-> net.rim.*
Jun 18 20:39:51 <michaelnovakjr> blackberry is the iphone competitor not android
Jun 18 20:40:09 <jerkface03> what?
Jun 18 20:40:20 <michaelnovakjr> i don't think there's money to be made in android
Jun 18 20:40:50 <michaelnovakjr> open source, free software will be the biggest selling point for android
Jun 18 20:40:58 <muthu> michaelnovakjr: just because we hate some things that goog is doing right now, doesn't mean android had lost its value
Jun 18 20:41:28 <michaelnovakjr> i'm not saying its lost value..... there's a lot of people that are saying that
Jun 18 20:56:43 <jasta> muthu: i would argue directly that the actions of late have lost value for Android.
Jun 18 20:57:11 <muthu> among the developers, maybe
Jun 18 20:57:14 <jasta> in particular, it has lost third party applications that were originally likely to come to market along with the device itself, populating their "market" store for day 1.
Jun 18 20:57:40 <michaelnovakjr> yea, i mean i wouldn't buy a phone based on the top 50
Jun 18 20:57:51 <michaelnovakjr> i'd wait until more apps are out
Jun 18 20:58:08 <muthu> probably more apps are getting built by oem's and carriers
Jun 18 20:58:12 <donomo> it feels like android is in a lull right now
Jun 18 20:58:12 <f00f-> lots of companies working in stealth, who couldn't be arsed to enter the ADC, fyi
Jun 18 20:58:32 <michaelnovakjr> yes, but without the new sdk they are doing much :)
Jun 18 20:58:32 <jasta> the argument wasn't whether value would remain, it was whether value was lost.
Jun 18 20:58:33 <jasta> It was.
Jun 18 20:58:50 <f00f-> whatever, it'll come back
Jun 18 20:58:53 <donomo> goog has gone more stealthy with development, and the wait for handsets is wearing down the 'outsider' devs
Jun 18 20:59:17 <michaelnovakjr> the 'outsider' devs are a large base of people you don't want to piss off
Jun 18 20:59:26 <donomo> indeed
Jun 18 20:59:38 <michaelnovakjr> and i think its safe to say they have
Jun 18 21:00:17 <f00f-> the only devs they have pissed off are the folks who submitted to ADC
Jun 18 21:00:21 <f00f-> that's a very small minority
Jun 18 21:00:21 <muthu> another public sdk release, things would be back to normal
Jun 18 21:00:28 <jasta> f00f-: minority in terms of wha?
Jun 18 21:00:29 <jasta> what*
Jun 18 21:00:43 <f00f-> in terms of the number of developers they will have once an actual phone is out
Jun 18 21:00:55 <f00f-> many good devs are not even thinking about android now
Jun 18 21:01:06 <f00f-> it's too much in its infancy to be nothing but a blip on the radar
Jun 18 21:01:09 <michaelnovakjr> of course, because its a waste of time
Jun 18 21:01:24 <f00f-> exactly, so if you piss off people now, it doesn't really matter
Jun 18 21:01:28 <f00f-> the real people will come in once the phone is out
Jun 18 21:01:34 <jasta> f00f-: yeah, but again, the argument here was whether google's actions of late have lost value for the platform.
Jun 18 21:01:50 <jasta> and they have.  the initial launch will suffer, i don't think you could reasonably argue otherwise.
Jun 18 21:01:59 <f00f-> it's irrelevant. there was no value to begin with.
Jun 18 21:02:04 <michaelnovakjr> open source projects that are stealth, that's annoying
Jun 18 21:02:51 <jasta> f00f-: I don't think I would agree.  Value doesn't have to be a realized utility.
Jun 18 21:03:01 <jasta> Hype, for example, is valuable.
Jun 18 21:03:32 <muthu> the value can be regained by doing a public release
Jun 18 21:03:40 <f00f-> maybe perceived value was created by the community. i don't believe google realized how much response they got to android initially.
Jun 18 21:03:42 <michaelnovakjr> i dont think its that easy
Jun 18 21:04:07 <zhobbs_> jasta: will the initial launch suffer more now than if R2 participants didn't get an SDK snapshot and just had to develop for M5?
Jun 18 21:04:48 <jasta> zhobbs_: so far, i don't think that the ADC had much to do with Google's overall marketing strategy.  For example, have they done anything other than create a PDF of the winners?
Jun 18 21:05:04 <romainguy> jasta: they haven't won yet
Jun 18 21:05:04 <michaelnovakjr> nope
Jun 18 21:05:19 <jasta> That's true, of course.
Jun 18 21:05:28 <muthu> we'll know after p2
Jun 18 21:05:42 <jasta> When is judging supposed to be completed, anyway?
Jun 18 21:05:52 <zhobbs_> I agree though, why didn't theys how off more of the apps?
Jun 18 21:05:55 <jasta> some time in August?
Jun 18 21:06:05 <zhobbs_> yeah, august
Jun 18 21:06:12 <muthu> zhobbs_: really?
Jun 18 21:06:14 <michaelnovakjr> a lot of them weren't that great
Jun 18 21:06:37 <jasta> zhobbs_: Perhaps they are waiting until the grand prize winners are crowned, but my guess is actually that they don't see it as a useful marketing vehicle.
Jun 18 21:06:46 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jun 18 21:07:04 <michaelnovakjr> it'll be the apps that are actually used by people that get marketed with the platform
Jun 18 21:07:17 <jasta> Thus far, they have done a very poor job hyping the phone.  Not that they have not tried, it seems like they are trying, and failing.
Jun 18 21:07:25 <zhobbs_> if they don't utilize the top 20 winners better than they did with top 50 then they wasted $5m
Jun 18 21:07:32 <jasta> The demonstration at the I/O keynote, for example, did not impress me.
Jun 18 21:07:34 <muthu> i don't think they are marketing yet
Jun 18 21:07:44 <Dougie187> michaelnovakjr: i love your background.
Jun 18 21:07:46 <Dougie187> its really cool
Jun 18 21:07:51 <michaelnovakjr> thanks :)
Jun 18 21:07:55 <jasta> what background?
Jun 18 21:08:02 <michaelnovakjr> my desktop background
Jun 18 21:08:05 <jasta> where?
Jun 18 21:08:13 <Dougie187> http://penguinsoftware.org/mydesktop.png
Jun 18 21:08:20 <michaelnovakjr> ^ yea that's it
Jun 18 21:08:21 <f00f-> your name is sergey?
Jun 18 21:08:27 <michaelnovakjr> nope
Jun 18 21:08:31 <michaelnovakjr> that is a status message
Jun 18 21:08:31 <Dougie187> i think your theme is really cool too
Jun 18 21:08:35 <jasta> that hurts my brain
Jun 18 21:08:39 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jun 18 21:08:40 <jasta> is that an illusion or a real photograph?
Jun 18 21:08:42 <f00f-> ugh, you are rolling up your windows like blinds
Jun 18 21:08:57 <Dougie187> my bet is illusion
Jun 18 21:09:00 <michaelnovakjr> i actually did that to show the background
Jun 18 21:09:19 <jasta> it looks like an illusion based on the lighting, but then if you look at the clouds it's harder to tell
Jun 18 21:09:21 <romainguy> looks like a real photograph taken as a panorama
Jun 18 21:09:32 <michaelnovakjr> my understanding is its a real photo
Jun 18 21:09:37 <f00f-> yeah
Jun 18 21:09:52 <michaelnovakjr> i've seen shots of New York that make me think i live in a city that doesn't exist
Jun 18 21:09:56 <Dougie187> i thought it was an illusion based on the cars and lighting.
Jun 18 21:10:10 <f00f-> romainguy: one of your shots in the m3 or m5 backgrtound... was it shot from mt. hamilton?
Jun 18 21:10:23 <romainguy> hmm no
Jun 18 21:10:24 <Dougie187> I guess it could be a panorama though.
Jun 18 21:10:32 <muthu> its not real
Jun 18 21:10:34 <romainguy> the backgrounds in Android came from Sequoia Park
Jun 18 21:10:38 <romainguy> and China
Jun 18 21:10:39 <f00f-> okay
Jun 18 21:11:03 <Dougie187> why muthu?
Jun 18 21:11:05 <romainguy> and to be more precise, from a small mountain village in south China
Jun 18 21:11:14 <f00f-> ah :D
Jun 18 21:11:15 <muthu> Dougie187: the streets are going nowhere
Jun 18 21:11:24 <Dougie187> have you ever heard of a dead end?
Jun 18 21:11:33 <michaelnovakjr> what are you talking about muthu?
Jun 18 21:11:38 <romainguy> muthu: it's just a panorama
Jun 18 21:11:40 <Dougie187> on the right.
Jun 18 21:11:44 <Dougie187> there are two streets that just end.
Jun 18 21:11:45 <michaelnovakjr> the one in the middle stretches the whole way
Jun 18 21:11:54 <Dougie187> but theres still city behind it.
Jun 18 21:11:58 <muthu> which city is that?
Jun 18 21:12:04 <michaelnovakjr> not sure exactly
Jun 18 21:12:13 <Dougie187> all speculation
Jun 18 21:12:17 <romainguy> the one on the far right splits into two other streets
Jun 18 21:12:24 <michaelnovakjr> i stumbled across the graphic and it was nuts
Jun 18 21:12:36 <muthu> its all superimposed
Jun 18 21:12:47 <michaelnovakjr> now that is just silly talk
Jun 18 21:12:49 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 18 21:13:05 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 18 21:13:08 <Dougie187> maybe its texas.
Jun 18 21:13:17 <Dougie187> its flat enough.
Jun 18 21:13:33 <michaelnovakjr> if that's texas, i think i'll move there :)
Jun 18 21:13:47 <Dougie187> lol. it doesnt look like that all the time...
Jun 18 21:13:51 <Dougie187> i hate texas actually.
Jun 18 21:14:02 <muthu> no way close to texas
Jun 18 21:14:12 <jasta> texas is a good guess, actually.
Jun 18 21:14:26 <muthu> its europse
Jun 18 21:14:27 <romainguy> this photo?
Jun 18 21:14:30 <romainguy> Texas?
Jun 18 21:14:31 <muthu> europe*
Jun 18 21:14:33 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jun 18 21:14:34 <romainguy> with these buildings??
Jun 18 21:14:37 <f00f-> heh
Jun 18 21:14:38 <romainguy> seriously guys...
Jun 18 21:14:46 <Dougie187> what city romainguy?
Jun 18 21:14:52 <Dougie187> i mean muthu
Jun 18 21:14:53 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 18 21:14:53 <Dougie187> ...
Jun 18 21:14:54 <jasta> romainguy: where would you guess?
Jun 18 21:15:01 <romainguy> it looks a lot like Europe
Jun 18 21:15:20 <Dougie187> where in europe?
Jun 18 21:15:21 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jun 18 21:15:26 <Dougie187> thats a rather broad guess.
Jun 18 21:15:27 <romainguy> that I don't know
Jun 18 21:15:29 <jasta> yeah, but everyone is driving on the right side.
Jun 18 21:15:32 <Dougie187> im gonna say Australia
Jun 18 21:15:44 <Dougie187> maybe Asia
Jun 18 21:15:49 <romainguy> jasta: so?
Jun 18 21:16:03 <michaelnovakjr> there are places in europe that don't drive on the left
Jun 18 21:16:14 <romainguy> omg
Jun 18 21:16:16 <Dougie187> any that have buildings like this?
Jun 18 21:16:24 <jasta> i dont think any that would look like this
Jun 18 21:16:24 <romainguy> Dougie187: certainly not Asia
Jun 18 21:16:28 <Dougie187> lol i know
Jun 18 21:16:29 <michaelnovakjr> omg.?
Jun 18 21:16:30 <Dougie187> it was a joke.
Jun 18 21:16:32 <jasta> in particular guys, look to the far left.
Jun 18 21:16:41 <Dougie187> because Europe is a ridiculous guess.
Jun 18 21:16:42 <jasta> on the railing
Jun 18 21:16:48 <romainguy> jasta: people drive on the right in Europe... except in England
Jun 18 21:16:50 <Dougie187> yeah i saw the railing thing.
Jun 18 21:17:12 <jasta> well, i suppose this is a riddle for the channel
Jun 18 21:17:28 <Dougie187> heh michaelnovakjr did you think your background would invoke such conversation?
Jun 18 21:17:32 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jun 18 21:18:01 <romainguy> ah dog
Jun 18 21:18:02 <romainguy> doh
Jun 18 21:18:04 <romainguy> I feel stupid
Jun 18 21:18:07 <romainguy> it's fucking Paris
Jun 18 21:18:10 <muthu> haha
Jun 18 21:18:14 <f00f-> that's what i was thinking
Jun 18 21:18:14 <muthu> that's what i thought
Jun 18 21:18:18 <Dougie187> hey romainguy, how do the roads work going from england to other countries?
Jun 18 21:18:20 <f00f-> arrondisement style streets
Jun 18 21:18:22 <muthu> somewhere in france
Jun 18 21:18:31 <romainguy> Dougie187: England is an island
Jun 18 21:18:36 <muthu> romainguy_: how can you miss this?
Jun 18 21:18:48 <f00f-> loo
Jun 18 21:18:56 <romainguy> there's teh freaking arche de la défense in the background
Jun 18 21:19:04 <romainguy> the picture is just taken on place de l'étoile
Jun 18 21:19:06 <Dougie187> touche.
Jun 18 21:19:14 <romainguy> muthu: cause I hate Paris :))
Jun 18 21:19:17 <f00f-> yeah
Jun 18 21:19:44 <Kraln> nothing wrong with paris
Jun 18 21:19:48 <Kraln> except the people who inhabit it
Jun 18 21:19:55 <Dougie187> either way, after a rather strong whiskey sour i think its time to play some dota.
Jun 18 21:19:55 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jun 18 21:19:56 <Kraln> I much prefer Lyons
Jun 18 21:20:02 <f00f-> romainguy: have you been down on 880 a bit south of SJC... there's a structure (i call it the Dolby Noise Reduction building since it looks like the NR logo), and it looks a lot like the l'arc de la defense
Jun 18 21:20:07 <michaelnovakjr> i love that Dougie187
Jun 18 21:20:13 <Dougie187> dota?
Jun 18 21:20:17 <Dougie187> or whikey sours?
Jun 18 21:20:27 <michaelnovakjr> how do the roads in england connect to other countries?
Jun 18 21:20:31 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 18 21:20:36 <Dougie187> its the whiskey sour talking.
Jun 18 21:20:46 <f00f-> michaelnovakjr: they dont...
Jun 18 21:20:48 <romainguy> f00f-: I don't remember seeing this building
Jun 18 21:20:50 <Dougie187> heh
Jun 18 21:20:59 <Dougie187> f00f-: he was quoting me
Jun 18 21:21:03 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jun 18 21:21:14 <Dougie187> (05:18:19 PM) Dougie187: hey romainguy, how do the roads work going from england to other countries?
Jun 18 21:21:52 <Dougie187> romainguy has all the answers.
Jun 18 21:22:29 <Dougie187> well, you can tell its a panoramic too, just because of the station wagon in the right side.
Jun 18 21:22:34 <Dougie187> its "ghosted"
Jun 18 21:22:46 <Dougie187> like a poorly put together panoramin
Jun 18 21:22:55 <michaelnovakjr> Arc de Triomphe
Jun 18 21:23:07 <Dougie187> now thats just jibberish.
Jun 18 21:23:16 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jun 18 21:23:19 <michaelnovakjr> that is where it is
Jun 18 21:23:22 <Dougie187> heh, brb
Jun 18 21:24:49 <michaelnovakjr> From the top there is a panoramic view of Paris
Jun 18 21:24:58 <michaelnovakjr> straight out of wikipedi
Jun 18 21:24:59 <michaelnovakjr> a
Jun 18 21:26:14 <Dougie187> now its time for dota
Jun 18 21:27:04 <Dougie187> lol a noobs only game.
Jun 18 21:28:40 <Dougie187> jasta: im invoker just for you.
Jun 18 21:28:41 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 18 21:28:50 <muthu> hey, walmart cheaper than target?
Jun 18 21:28:56 <muthu> need to get some shopping done
Jun 18 21:28:59 <muthu> for family
Jun 18 21:29:01 <michaelnovakjr> walmart === cheap
Jun 18 21:29:11 <muthu> walmart, costco, target
Jun 18 21:29:15 <muthu> that's what we have here
Jun 18 21:29:28 <michaelnovakjr> costco is membership
Jun 18 21:29:47 <muthu> but is it cheaper than walmart?
Jun 18 21:30:06 <michaelnovakjr> no
Jun 18 21:30:08 <Dougie187> depends. but you need a membership to get in.
Jun 18 21:30:10 <muthu> heard generally you can buy in walmart blindly
Jun 18 21:30:12 <michaelnovakjr> at least not by me
Jun 18 21:30:18 <michaelnovakjr> yes muthu
Jun 18 21:30:23 <muthu> cool
Jun 18 21:30:28 <michaelnovakjr> walmart is the cheapest i've found
Jun 18 21:30:33 <muthu> great
Jun 18 21:30:48 <michaelnovakjr> http://penguinsoftware.org/chicago.jpg
Jun 18 21:30:56 <michaelnovakjr> that is also a pretty nutty photo
Jun 18 21:31:00 <Kraln> muthu: walmart is cheaper than target
Jun 18 21:31:10 <Kraln> but shopping at walmart is basically soulless
Jun 18 21:31:29 <muthu> Kraln: yeah, but i don't want to be comparing prices
Jun 18 21:31:38 <Kraln> walmart isn't the cheapest
Jun 18 21:31:44 <muthu> which one then?
Jun 18 21:31:50 <Kraln> they did market research to figure out what are the 8 items that most people will remember the price on
Jun 18 21:32:06 <Kraln> young men, young women, middle aged men, middle aged women, old men, old women
Jun 18 21:32:11 <Kraln> and they made those 48 items loss leaders
Jun 18 21:32:19 <Kraln> and everything else is pretty expensive by comparison
Jun 18 21:32:24 <muthu> oh
Jun 18 21:32:37 <Kraln> what are you shopping /for/
Jun 18 21:32:49 <muthu> let me pull out the list
Jun 18 21:32:52 <muthu> mostly kids items
Jun 18 21:33:17 <muthu> coloring set, school bag, educational toys
Jun 18 21:33:33 <Kraln> sounds like toys 'r us to me
Jun 18 21:33:38 <muthu> right
Jun 18 21:33:47 <muthu> hand bag, perfume, makeup
Jun 18 21:33:53 <Kraln> plus I don't have any ethical problems with toys r us.
Jun 18 21:34:02 <Kraln> I think you need to find a mall with a toys 'r us near by
Jun 18 21:34:10 <muthu> there's one very close
Jun 18 21:34:17 <muthu> and i'm buying all toys there
Jun 18 21:34:29 <muthu> what about diamond jewellery?
Jun 18 21:34:31 <muthu> where to get that?
Jun 18 21:34:51 <Kraln> honestly? the internet. =p
Jun 18 21:35:02 <muthu> yeah, but i don't have time to order and wait
Jun 18 21:35:15 <Kraln> well you're going to get gouged on convienience
Jun 18 21:35:24 <muthu> right
Jun 18 21:35:45 <muthu> internet might not be bad
Jun 18 21:35:50 <muthu> may be that's what i should do
Jun 18 21:35:59 <muthu> still time left
Jun 18 21:36:09 <muthu> Kraln: any website for diamond jewellery?
Jun 18 21:36:19 <Kraln> off the top of my head? no
Jun 18 21:36:26 <Kraln> shop around though. you can definitely save some $$$
Jun 18 21:36:32 <muthu> ok
Jun 18 21:36:33 <Kraln> amazon sometimes has good deals
Jun 18 21:36:42 <muthu> ok, i'll google
Jun 18 21:39:26 <muthu> wow, 50% off
Jun 18 21:42:20 <Kraln> I'm not suprised =)
Jun 18 21:42:45 <muthu> online is the best place
Jun 18 21:42:54 <muthu> Kraln: thanks
Jun 18 21:45:03 <Dougie187> jasta: your right about exort.
Jun 18 21:45:07 <Dougie187> :(
Jun 18 21:48:51 <jasta> privmsg
Jun 18 22:18:54 <jasta> playing with all this google stuff is really interesting.
Jun 18 22:18:57 <jasta> gears, gwt, etc
Jun 18 22:19:08 <jasta> i think gears especially is very cool
Jun 18 22:19:18 <jasta> i'm excited to see what people do with web apps on Gears.
Jun 18 22:19:25 <jasta> err, mobile web apps i mean
Jun 18 22:21:45 <zhobbs> wonder if they will release gears for mobile for other platforms?
Jun 18 22:22:06 <jasta> they already released windows mobile, i assume they have plans to support every platform that can be supported.
Jun 18 22:22:15 <zhobbs> oh, cool
Jun 18 22:35:31 <muthu> mobile web apps + gears will be interesting
Jun 18 22:35:59 <jasta> still inferior to native apps, i think, but at least a big step up from current web apps on mobile phones
Jun 18 22:41:42 <muthu> jasta: you can't compare with native apps
Jun 18 22:42:14 <muthu> but the gap might be bridged just like desktop/webapps
Jun 18 22:44:20 <jasta> the next big step would be to optimize the language itself.  HTML and JavaScript are all wrong for mobile devices.
Jun 18 22:45:29 <jasta> efficiently compressed HTML and a JavaScript bytecode are both necessary to improve the situation.
Jun 18 22:45:36 <jasta> as in, not just gzipped HTML :)
Jun 18 22:45:42 <muthu> it depends on browser
Jun 18 22:45:43 <jasta> similar to Android's binary XML format
Jun 18 22:45:50 <muthu> the mobile browsers must get smart
Jun 18 22:46:23 <jasta> the efficiency of HTML and JS are big bottlenecks that the browser, however efficient, cannot overcome.
Jun 18 22:46:56 <muthu> need to think different for mobile
Jun 18 22:47:02 <jasta> neither lend themselves well to poor network connections, slow processors, and limited memory.
Jun 18 22:47:30 <muthu> isn't there some mobile web standard
Jun 18 22:47:41 <jasta> yes, WAP and WbXML
Jun 18 22:48:08 <jasta> the former is a miserable failure, the latter is only just a failure :)
Jun 18 22:48:44 <jasta> the basic problem with both is that they are not generalized encodings of what the desktop is used to processing.
Jun 18 22:49:07 <jasta> a javascript bytecode and formalized efficient encodings for HTML and XHTML would go a long way.
Jun 18 22:50:52 <muthu> its again because of browser wars i guess
Jun 18 22:51:07 <Kraln> not really
Jun 18 22:51:15 <Kraln> the browers represent the page differently internally
Jun 18 22:51:32 <muthu> every browser has it own thing
Jun 18 22:52:20 <muthu> is webkit / webview going to be the mobile browser standard
Jun 18 22:53:03 <Kraln> no
Jun 18 22:53:08 <Kraln> opera and firefox both have mobile browsers
Jun 18 22:53:47 <muthu> that's the problem
Jun 18 22:53:57 <muthu> again browser wars and developers caught in between
Jun 18 22:57:36 <jasta> really, that's not the biggest problem.
Jun 18 22:57:41 <jasta> Gears solved one of the big problems.
Jun 18 22:57:50 <jasta> But still, the bigger one is the efficiency of HTML and JS.
Jun 18 22:57:58 <jasta> the bigger one remaining, i should say.
Jun 18 22:58:00 <muthu> gears solved only the storage problem
Jun 18 22:58:08 <jasta> Gears solved more than that.
Jun 18 22:58:10 <muthu> not the view problem that webapps face
Jun 18 22:58:21 <muthu> is gwt available for mobile?
Jun 18 22:58:40 <jasta> Gears also offers a fork analog, which can be used to do background caching and all sorts of other goodies.
Jun 18 22:58:46 <jasta> windows mobile only
Jun 18 22:59:00 <jasta> web apps being rendered correctly on mobile phones is an easy problem space.
Jun 18 22:59:03 <muthu> if we can use gwt + gears
Jun 18 22:59:44 <jasta> you're not listening, GWT imposes pretty heavy JavaScript overhead, a language which is quite slow to interpret or JIT compile.
Jun 18 22:59:55 <jasta> and HTML is bad as well.
Jun 18 23:00:01 <muthu> brb
Jun 18 23:00:39 <jasta> given the limited real-estate of mobile phones, it's very simple to create a good user interface with almost no significant layout or markup.  Single column designs work *great*.
Jun 18 23:01:08 <jasta> but HTML and JS are inefficient bottlenecks.
Jun 18 23:01:58 <Kraln> jasta: the opera web browser proxies everything so it gets pre-rendered.
Jun 18 23:03:11 <rosh11821> how pervasive is copy+paste in Android?
Jun 18 23:05:52 <jasta> rosh11821: uhh?
Jun 18 23:06:16 <jasta> Kraln: i'm not sure eactly what you mean, but the problem space isn't any different based on the time you render or compile.
Jun 18 23:06:29 <jasta> it still is an expensive operation when it doesnt have to be.
Jun 18 23:06:35 <Kraln> -1this is true
Jun 18 23:06:56 <Kraln> I agree. but they simplify the on-device browser to essentially a vector viewer iirc
Jun 18 23:22:02 <jasta> ultimately, web apps could become very neatly integrated with mobile devices, but it will require a lot of standards work to get there
Jun 18 23:22:12 <jasta> and that is traditionally something that happens very slowly
Jun 18 23:22:44 <jasta> Gears, I think, is an excellent first step, practically demonstrating the benefit of this type of integration.
Jun 18 23:23:19 <muthu> jasta: gears has nothing to do with mobile
Jun 18 23:23:29 <jasta> you're quite wrong, muthu.
Jun 18 23:23:54 <muthu> gears is for developing ria
Jun 18 23:24:02 <muthu> RIA
Jun 18 23:24:38 <jasta> Gears is for cooperating with the client's native resources.
Jun 18 23:25:02 <jasta> Including the natural extension to contacts, location, etc.
Jun 18 23:25:03 <muthu> you always give the longer explanation, that no one reads
Jun 18 23:26:21 <jasta> If you're interested in what could be possible, see: http://code.google.com/p/gears/wiki/GeolocationAPI as an example
Jun 18 23:27:29 <jasta> The idea is that native applications have certain advantages at the edges, like access to local resources and platform-specific APIs.
Jun 18 23:27:52 <jasta> Gears ultimately is trying to even the playing field so that web apps, enabled with Gears, can have the same level of access on the device that is hosting the app.
Jun 18 23:28:09 <muthu> RIA
Jun 18 23:28:42 <muthu> similar to flash/silverlight etc.,
Jun 18 23:29:09 <muthu> gears is only focussed on the client storage though
Jun 18 23:29:34 <f00f-> we dont know enough about gears to really talk about it
Jun 18 23:29:57 <jasta> Well, considering I have been looking at it for the past several days, I'd say I can :)
Jun 18 23:30:57 <muthu> f00f-: are you saying you don't know enough?
Jun 18 23:31:10 <muthu> or jasta doesn't know ;)
Jun 18 23:31:55 <jasta> muthu, what gives you the confidence that you understand Gears so well?  Have you, for example, used it on a project?  Explored the documentation?  Scoured the forums?
Jun 18 23:32:34 <muthu> http://www.slideshare.net/intellibitz/gears-user-guide/
Jun 18 23:32:40 <muthu> that was done 1 year ago
Jun 18 23:32:50 <muthu> when gears came out
Jun 18 23:32:51 <jasta> And is that your basis for education?
Jun 18 23:33:20 <jasta> Because I'm seeing a lot of things that, right now, could be possible.  And have read about where some of the engineers are trying to take the project in the future.
Jun 18 23:33:56 <jasta> And specifically, how they want it to integrate with the mobile space to create applications that feel native to the user, with access to local resources like location awareness.
Jun 18 23:34:48 <muthu> i've worked with gears, gwt
Jun 18 23:34:54 <muthu> etc., as soon as they have come
Jun 18 23:35:01 <muthu> just like android ;)
Jun 18 23:35:29 <f00f-> well none of us have developed anything using gears
Jun 18 23:35:31 <muthu> now i just focus on android more, since its on the mobile space and seems to fit my interest like a "glove"
Jun 18 23:35:33 <muthu> :0
Jun 18 23:35:43 <muthu> s/0/)/g
Jun 18 23:35:44 <infobot> muthu meant: :)
Jun 18 23:36:03 <muthu> f00f-: haha
Jun 18 23:36:04 <f00f-> s/infobot//g
Jun 18 23:36:10 <muthu> you have become more like me these days ;)
Jun 18 23:36:36 <f00f-> hehe
Jun 18 23:36:48 <muthu> wanted to create some sort of userguide for android
Jun 18 23:36:53 <muthu> but now i don't think i can
Jun 18 23:37:38 <f00f-> how come?
Jun 18 23:37:45 <f00f-> (apart from the obvious reasons)
Jun 18 23:38:27 <muthu> oh yeah the obvious ones
Jun 18 23:38:45 <muthu> m5 is old
Jun 18 23:41:50 <f00f-> yea
Jun 19 00:15:23 <jasta> if Dougie comes by looking for me, tell him ill be back in about20m
Jun 19 00:27:13 <muthu> http://www.montana.edu/cpa/news/nwview.php?article=6005
Jun 19 00:27:23 <muthu> wow, 150 job offers
Jun 19 01:24:38 <Razec> hi all
Jun 19 01:50:56 <jasta> hello
Jun 19 01:56:27 <Razec> jasta..whats up
Jun 19 01:59:46 <jasta> not much
Jun 19 02:05:31 <Razec> =(
Jun 19 02:09:57 <jasta> ?
Jun 19 02:14:51 <Razec> jasta Whats use to design menu and fields to android? droid draw?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jun 19 02:59:57 2008