**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jun 22 02:59:57 2008 Jun 22 04:54:40 holler Jun 22 05:39:46 yo Jun 22 06:16:11 yo Jun 22 07:21:01 yawn Jun 22 08:26:19 anyone alive? Jun 22 08:48:09 knock knock Jun 22 08:48:15 yes? Jun 22 08:51:07 whattup man Jun 22 08:51:28 i thought i was the only one alive... its almost 5am here and i havent gone to bed yet. debating just staying awake. hmmmmm Jun 22 08:52:04 1:51am here Jun 22 08:52:07 and i think you should go to bed Jun 22 08:52:40 haha probably a good idea Jun 22 08:52:43 quick question... Jun 22 08:53:14 people from G have said they're coming out with a way for all the developers who submitted apps to showcase their stuff with some type of online portal Jun 22 08:53:26 have developers been contacted about something like this yet? Jun 22 08:54:16 trigatch4: no. Jun 22 08:54:22 might have just been an empty claim Jun 22 08:54:28 cool Jun 22 08:54:34 because i'm coming out with something Jun 22 08:55:21 hopefully i'll have a basic version running by monday and be able to start contacting developers Jun 22 08:55:49 it sucks that something doesn't already exist, its fun to look at all the different apps Jun 22 08:55:55 but there isnt one place to see them Jun 22 08:56:58 jasta: might have just been an empty claim << could you stop with the FUD? Jun 22 08:57:22 i didn't start the FUD, romain. Jun 22 08:57:48 you certainly keep spreading it to whoever sets foot (bits?) here :) Jun 22 08:58:04 if i recall correctly, it comes from the extremely unpredictable behaviour of Google. Jun 22 08:58:22 only because Google has not felt it necessary to make their decision public. Jun 22 08:58:39 I feel like other community members have the right to know what we know, as a result of our privileged contact with ADC winners. Jun 22 09:01:02 well, i don't think it was an empty claim... Jun 22 09:01:26 it seems like Google has just decided not to release anything until it is PERFECT in their eyes Jun 22 09:01:39 but while everyone is waiting, people are growing restless Jun 22 09:01:43 at least, thats how i see it Jun 22 09:03:10 trigatch4: That's one interpretation, although it fails to appreciate that winners were asked to sign an NDA, specifically barring them from posting screenshots, discussing new features, or posting performance benchmarks for 3 years. Jun 22 09:04:44 3 years? is that an exaggeration? Jun 22 09:04:52 trigatch4: No, it is in the NDA that they signed. Jun 22 09:05:14 There is no clause which ammends the term, either. Not, "until it is released", but rather, 3 years. Jun 22 09:05:16 that makes no sense. if android is out by the end of 2008, there should be no need to have the NDA last any longer. Jun 22 09:05:24 It has been said, outside of the contract, that they intended to include "until the public release" but of course, that was not added. Jun 22 09:05:45 I suspect it is a glaring omission of their legal dept, but who knows. Jun 22 09:06:05 Surprisingly, people actually signed that crud. Jun 22 09:06:07 is there a copy of the NDA floating around anywhere do you know? Jun 22 09:06:12 then complained about that clause after the fact. Jun 22 09:06:22 if you were a winner, i don't think many felt they had a choice Jun 22 09:06:25 trigatch4: No, although I witnessed an interchange between several of the winners and Dan Morrill at I/O. Jun 22 09:06:27 25,000 bucks or go away Jun 22 09:06:39 in which this 3 year term was discused. Jun 22 09:06:47 thats we tall did Jun 22 09:06:49 Of course you have a choice. Contact their legal department and have your contract ammended. Jun 22 09:07:02 What? Jun 22 09:07:07 retarded Jun 22 09:07:58 Lol, and Romain left. Jun 22 09:08:08 Take a look around trigatch4, where did all the Google employees go? Jun 22 09:08:18 Jason and Dan haven't been here for weeks. Jun 22 09:08:23 Romain is barely saying anything. Jun 22 09:08:47 You don't think that perhaps there's just a little bit of shame over at Google over what happened here? :) Jun 22 09:09:08 shame? Jun 22 09:09:16 depends on what level Jun 22 09:09:20 That maybe it's not just "we want it to be perfect", but rather "we mismanaged the crap out of this." Jun 22 09:09:26 i dont think anyone at google is ashamed of android in the least Jun 22 09:10:09 I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of, technically speaking. Jun 22 09:10:25 However, the politics that they are not involved in are certainly something to be ashamed of. Jun 22 09:10:42 there should be more communication, i agree Jun 22 09:10:50 This project has been mismanaged with regard to the community. There is no doubt about it. Jun 22 09:11:18 And I think, rightfully so, the Google engineers at the bottom are sick of the community complaining. Jun 22 09:11:21 yeah, thats understandable. i wouldn't know that as much since i'm not a developer seeking answers and such. Jun 22 09:11:47 But that their annoyance is only an echo of our extreme frustration. Jun 22 09:12:45 Their behaviour of late has led me to have serious doubts over the trust I would place in Google's ability to manage this project. To date, they have done nothing like it, and there is nothing credible about the organization in general which tells me they should be able to handle something like this. Jun 22 09:13:30 From what I've been told, all there effort is going into completing and polishing the product. Everything else has taken a backseat. Jun 22 09:13:41 trigatch4: What else is there? Jun 22 09:14:12 Do realize we are talking about two different groups within Google. Jun 22 09:14:26 There are the engineers, who simply do their job and crank out code as they would regardless of these politics. Jun 22 09:14:28 The communication you are talking about. Jun 22 09:14:54 trigatch4: Again, two different groups. Jun 22 09:15:22 The other group, which should be responsible for project management, is free to spend their energies interacting with the community Jun 22 09:15:32 For example, Dan Morrill's job description is developer advocate. He is to interact with the communities outside of Google, and relate that internally. Jun 22 09:15:58 so where is he is your question? Jun 22 09:15:59 He has not posted or revealed information to date not because he is busy working on getting Android out the door, but because politically he was told not to. Jun 22 09:16:00 haha Jun 22 09:16:10 No, I know where he is. Jun 22 09:16:19 wheres that Jun 22 09:16:34 He's avoiding a community which has questions he can't answer. Jun 22 09:17:19 I don't think for any moment that Romain, Dan, Jason, ...anyone engineer at Google, is actively being malicious withholding privileged information from a community hungry for it. Jun 22 09:17:46 What is Romain's title? Also a developer advocate? Jun 22 09:18:14 No, Romain is an engineer, specifically working on the UI framework's implementation within Android. Jun 22 09:18:29 Romain is, actually, the only engineer which even gives the community the time of day. Jun 22 09:18:49 Though he has been extremely helpful, he has done so on his own accord, without instruction from Google. Jun 22 09:19:43 Google has demonstrated that their short-term strategy for Android has not been to cater to general open source developer community, despite the conflicting message their marketing department has put out. Jun 22 09:19:53 yeah, you'd figure it should be someone's FT job to be responding to the community 24/7 Jun 22 09:20:05 And there is. Jun 22 09:20:21 they are overpaid Jun 22 09:20:21 Take a look through the android-developers blog. There are only like 4 posters. Jun 22 09:20:25 Many of those posts are from Dan. Jun 22 09:20:43 His job is to respond to the community and interact with them. As he does on other projects than just Android. Jun 22 09:20:58 That said, he has been told that he is not at liberty to make announcements. Jun 22 09:21:02 He cannot create a road map. Jun 22 09:21:07 He cannot explain the NDA. Jun 22 09:21:29 He cannot clarify any of the troubling issues that have been generated from this community. Jun 22 09:21:47 And not because he is unable to, of course these should all be simple tasks. Jun 22 09:22:12 He is not permitted to. Jun 22 09:22:13 We have come back to my generalization: this project is being mismanaged with regard to the community. Jun 22 09:22:27 Perhaps the OHA priorities have been well taken care of, but those do not concern us so directly. Jun 22 09:23:16 Yeah... well... wish there was something that could be done but everyone is really just at the mercy of the G. Jun 22 09:23:38 Thats part of the reason I'm putting together this application directory... in addition to feeding my own interest/addiction... Jun 22 09:23:48 They said there were WELL more than 50 that deserved to win... Jun 22 09:23:58 but only those 50 have really gotten any credit or attention by google Jun 22 09:24:31 so hopefully i'll be able to at least give some of these people with kick ass apps a unified platform to speak from Jun 22 09:25:02 but, as you have said in the past, if they cannot continue to develop their app because of SDK restrictions it may make that somewhat pointless Jun 22 09:26:47 And I think it is being mismanaged not due to malice, but inexperience. Google is not a major open source player, and they have never had to deal with the mobile industry. Jun 22 09:26:48 trigatch4: Right, which is why I express that, perhaps not everything they claim should be taken for face value. Jun 22 09:26:48 Instead, I encourage members of this community to realize that being at the mercy of a major American corporation is not perhaps the wisest position to place yourself. Jun 22 09:26:48 Perhaps taking a step back for now is a wiser plan. Let's see where this platform goes, let's see where management lets us go with it. Jun 22 09:26:51 Even as an open project, for example, we may not have nearly the level of flexibility we hope or expect. Ultimately, the carriers and manufacturers are free to do as they wish. The politics "behind the scenes" of why patch A was rejected might never be well explained to the public. Jun 22 09:26:55 And this is a precarious position for any open source developer to be in. Jun 22 09:27:35 I have decided not to directly develop my Android components moving forward simply because I cannot predict what Google will come up with next. Jun 22 09:27:46 I am unwilling to be at the mercy of a machine that I do not understand. Jun 22 09:27:59 And, most importantly, cannot predict. Jun 22 09:28:22 Technically speaking, how do I know if feature A I depend on gets changed so much I have to redesign my app? Or feature B improves things so much I *should* redesign my app. Jun 22 09:28:31 Engineers can't work in that environment! Jun 22 09:28:32 this seems like a catch 22: "Perhaps taking a step back for now is a wiser plan. Let's see where this platform goes, let's see where management lets us go with it." Jun 22 09:28:49 I don't mean for years. Jun 22 09:28:59 because without the developers, the platform won't go anywhere to begin with Jun 22 09:29:15 I mean until they start interacting with us again. Until we have the dialog and trust that we started with restored. Jun 22 09:29:33 trigatch4: Right, but why should it go anywhere if they won't trust us? Jun 22 09:30:01 i think they are just being overly careful Jun 22 09:30:09 i think a lot of it is probably proprietary stuff Jun 22 09:30:37 I'm sure that it is, but do you realize that they already had proprietary stuff in their tree up until now? Jun 22 09:30:40 they don't want apple, limo, etc... to have their complete blueprint Jun 22 09:30:55 You don't think it's beyond a company like Google to maintain their branch in such a way that they can easily separate public versus private? Jun 22 09:31:12 but with this there are SO many different levels Jun 22 09:31:16 its not so black/white Jun 22 09:31:21 i'm not disagreeing with you Jun 22 09:31:41 i'm just saying... it sucks from every angle Jun 22 09:32:19 I can't speak for the community, but I personally am just pissed that we don't get simple bug fixes and new APIs. Jun 22 09:32:19 As I said, I do not believe (though I could be wrong) that there is any malace behind the scenes. Jun 22 09:32:19 Merely that Google is a company way outside of its element here. Jun 22 09:32:41 They are contending with the open source world and the mobile world at each end. Jun 22 09:33:57 It might be more frustrating if they kept updating the APIs and bugs during the process but they fixed one bug which created another then added a feature which created another bug, etc... Jun 22 09:34:04 And, as a result, perhaps they've mismanaged some elements on one (or both) sides of the table. Jun 22 09:34:07 neverending process of putting out fires for your app Jun 22 09:34:19 as opposed to getting one huge update Jun 22 09:34:26 trigatch4: Except that, to date, they have only done that. Jun 22 09:34:28 and just developing for the comxpletely updated version Jun 22 09:34:30 Let's look at the time line shall we: Jun 22 09:34:39 M3 was released, shortly after a bug fix release as made. Jun 22 09:34:44 Then another, with some new features. Jun 22 09:35:02 Then M5, changing the UI, many APIs, and introducing lots of new features. Jun 22 09:35:06 Seemingly changing the direction of the whole project. Jun 22 09:35:18 that severe? Jun 22 09:35:25 changing the direction of the whole project? Jun 22 09:35:28 So, what track record do they have of protecting our sanity? Jun 22 09:36:21 btw what does FUD mean Jun 22 09:36:24 which romain said Jun 22 09:36:33 trigatch4: I can say honestly that I had a different idea for where Android was going from M3 to M5. Perhaps that clarity was more the result of immersing myself in the community, but still, many changes surprised me greatly. Jun 22 09:36:40 For example, the formal transition to GTalk led me to believe they had some "big picture" idea of how GTalk would fit, perhaps replacing SMS for a messaging and alert mechanism within Android. Jun 22 09:36:52 trigatch4: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Jun 22 09:37:01 ah Jun 22 09:37:22 But to my GTalk example, they have obviously not explained that idea. They just toss out some code leaving developers scratching their heads. Jun 22 09:37:51 couldn't you attribute it to the dynamic nature of what they're trying to do at the moment as well? Jun 22 09:37:52 They change the UI so that it's all touch screen sensitive, but there's no soft keyboard? So again, the developers are thinking "Ok, so we assume the device has a keyboard, but also a large touch screen?" Jun 22 09:38:10 i mean... friendconnect, opensocial Jun 22 09:38:13 trigatch4: I could, only if the project is being mismanaged. There is that theme again. Jun 22 09:38:20 Dan told us once that their requirements "change on a weekly basis" Jun 22 09:38:35 which means, someone REALLY FUCKING SCREWED UP! Jun 22 09:39:03 healthy projects at healthy companies do not change their general marketing strategy or technical direction so suddenly. Jun 22 09:39:36 So, it is more likely instead that the engineers are simply not "in the loop", but these decisions were made months before by management and only handed down when they felt it necessary to do so. Jun 22 09:39:44 are others as vocal/opinionated about this as you? Jun 22 09:40:01 Do you mean are there others, or are most this way? Jun 22 09:40:07 are most Jun 22 09:40:11 i know there are others Jun 22 09:40:24 No, I don't think most developers in the community either feel this way, or are as loud about it. Jun 22 09:40:52 However, my purpose for being so vocal is because I think a large segment of the community is not aware of a lot of these issues. Jun 22 09:40:53 obviously you've expressed this to romain, dan and jason... what do they say? Jun 22 09:40:57 just that they can't say anything? Jun 22 09:41:07 Yes, repeatedly. Jun 22 09:41:27 Google has made no announcement about any of this. In fact, it was hard even to get Dan to *confirm* any of it. Jun 22 09:41:39 The NDA issue, the release schedule, the reason why there's no road map, the lack of direction, none of it. Jun 22 09:41:58 They are tightlipped to the point where developers, such as myself, feel adrift. Jun 22 09:42:44 what are the chances i could get you to do a guest post on phandroid about this? Jun 22 09:42:54 kind of like, "an open letter to google" Jun 22 09:43:11 No idea what's happening, no idea what's coming next. We've been totally isolated from their process. Which is fine, had they not advertised this platform as being something of the opposite. Jun 22 09:43:38 your POV kind of amazes me Jun 22 09:43:46 Well, I've already posted on my own blog, which appeared syndicated on planetandroid.com Jun 22 09:43:53 How so? Jun 22 09:44:42 For the record, I don't see myself as spreading the FUD nearly as much as I see that I am advertising it. Jun 22 09:45:11 just because I'm not in a position to have strong feelings one way or the other. It's like looking at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict... you can understand each sides' reasoning to why they "deserve" the land and both sides seem right and neither wrong. Jun 22 09:45:26 It's not my message, I'm just carrying it along. It's Google's message. Jun 22 09:45:34 And to a degree it is because both have a claim to what they demand and a right to it... and when you hear it from their mouth it makes sense. Jun 22 09:45:55 i don't know if that made any sense Jun 22 09:46:02 Well, I can say proudly that I am speaking as a developer who fully embraced the platform, and built something quite significant for it. Jun 22 09:46:07 I didn't know you had a blog Jun 22 09:46:09 what is it? Jun 22 09:46:12 And I feel cheated for it. Jun 22 09:46:21 http://www.devtcg.org Jun 22 09:49:11 I naively entered this community believing I could predict the project's evolution. That we would see regular releases as the platform neared maturity, and given increasingly sophisticated tools to really mark the platform with our quality applications. Jun 22 09:49:11 nice Jun 22 09:49:15 And that, for our work, we'd see some level of momentum being early adopters ready to launch with the platform itself. Jun 22 09:49:47 As a result of this recent short-sightedness, I think at least my short-term goal will not be met. Jun 22 09:50:36 Android will launch with minimal community support, and very few quality applications. Jun 22 09:50:38 Other than those produced by Google and the OHA partners. Jun 22 09:52:17 although that'll still be better than the 0 applications people have access to now Jun 22 09:52:32 Well, will it? Jun 22 09:52:42 I mean, what about Android's initial launch will be so significantly better than the iPhone? Jun 22 09:52:57 Developers can create apps for the iPhone now, afterall. Of course you are subject to Apple's whim, but how is Google behaving differently now? Jun 22 09:53:23 They aren't even in a position to guarantee that our apps won't be rejected for political reasons. Jun 22 09:53:34 They aren't even in that game. The carriers could just as well lay on their usual crap and reject apps that compete with their services. Jun 22 09:54:23 While I believe we are dealing with two different evils here, the practical point still remains valid. How is Android's initial launch going to be much different than the iPhone?> Jun 22 09:54:38 I bet, in fact, the iPhone will have far more community-generated apps at that point. Jun 22 09:54:42 With it's SDK being out for a shorter length of time even. Jun 22 09:55:15 I had assumed Google was doing a smart thing with the ADC: to get a bunch of niche apps built, with only having to pay for a few of them. Jun 22 09:55:54 But then they turned around and penalized the vast majority of apps that were built. Jun 22 09:56:34 Anyway, I have to go. My girlfriend is really upset with me now :) Jun 22 10:06:00 haha thanks for the talk Jun 22 10:06:07 i disagree with you on iphone vs. android Jun 22 10:06:11 but we can talk about that later Jun 22 10:06:15 have a good night Jun 22 10:11:09 wow i just read all that Jun 22 10:22:43 and? Jun 22 10:35:09 a little whiny Jun 22 10:36:02 however a few reasonable comments Jun 22 10:38:31 ill give it a 6/10 for effort Jun 22 17:47:15 good morning Jun 22 17:56:37 Is it normal in the US that you write about market share per Quarter and not about the overall market share? e.g. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jKGYITouKPZvIoFA4nmTsIG9flXQD91076E83 Jun 22 18:22:55 gambler: a few? ;) Jun 22 18:45:44 jasta: A few! Jun 22 23:51:39 quiet before the storm? Jun 22 23:52:29 ? Jun 22 23:52:32 what do you mean? Jun 22 23:52:41 is there a storm abrewin? Jun 23 02:34:50 hi **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jun 23 02:59:56 2008