**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jun 30 02:59:56 2008
Jun 30 13:10:22 <trigatch4> whattup people
Jun 30 14:08:00 <michaelnovakjr> howdy
Jun 30 14:29:44 <jasta> yawn
Jun 30 14:29:46 <jasta> that was a cool trip :)
Jun 30 14:29:53 <Dougie187> you had fun?
Jun 30 14:30:00 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 30 14:31:09 <jasta> oh yeah, there was one point i was at about 20 feet above the water where you could see more than 180 degree panoramic view of the water, lights from bellingham, wa, the coast of sidney island in bc, the olympics in the distnace, and mt baker
Jun 30 14:31:46 <jasta> seals, bald eagles, and porpuses were so common that toward the end of the trip everyone was like "ohh, what's that!?  oh nevermind, it's just a bald eagle again."
Jun 30 14:31:55 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jun 30 14:32:06 <jasta> several times while we were paddling seals would come right up to the boats
Jun 30 14:32:21 <jasta> when we landed on the beach for lunch the second day, a dear walked right by and paid no attention to us as we were docking our kayaks
Jun 30 14:32:30 <jasta> less than 10 feet from everyone
Jun 30 14:32:37 <jasta> just strolled through
Jun 30 14:32:57 <jasta> and a bald eagle was on the beach the first day...we had to sit and wait for him to fly away before we could go in and eat hehe
Jun 30 14:33:33 <jasta> didnt see any orca whales though, unfortunately.  i guess the reports were that they were all spotted up in vancouver this weekend
Jun 30 14:35:54 <tethridge> jasta, what kind of kayak were you using?
Jun 30 14:36:09 <tethridge> I'm in the market, I'm looking for opinions.  I've never owned one before
Jun 30 14:36:14 <jasta> not sure, i dont know anything about kayaks.  they were very easy to control, tandem kayaks though
Jun 30 14:36:28 <jasta> didnt ever feel like we were going to flip and we were in pretty massive open waters
Jun 30 14:36:33 <jasta> here, let me show you on a map where i ended up
Jun 30 14:36:37 <tethridge> do you remember the brand?  Sit on top?
Jun 30 14:37:40 <jasta> no i dont, sorry.  what do you mean by sit on top?
Jun 30 14:38:00 <tethridge> it's just a style of kayak
Jun 30 14:38:16 <tethridge> usually either sit on top or sit in
Jun 30 14:38:28 <tethridge> sit in has the big oval hole
Jun 30 14:38:29 <jasta> we sat in
Jun 30 14:39:01 <tethridge> did you carry your gear with you in the kayak?
Jun 30 14:39:29 <jasta> yes, there were 3 compartments for that (they were tandem kayaks)
Jun 30 14:39:55 <jasta> http://tinyurl.com/4osyr8
Jun 30 14:40:14 <jasta> so, you see that point on the island in the center way off to the upper-left?
Jun 30 14:40:39 <jasta> in the green state park area?  we were standing at that point right on the edge of the water
Jun 30 14:41:05 <tethridge> cool
Jun 30 14:41:26 <jasta> and we launched from roche harbor, which is down below on san juan island and we paddled all over the place
Jun 30 14:42:15 <jasta> paddled probably 4 miles each day, and hiked 6 miles to that lighthouse on stuart island
Jun 30 14:43:54 <jasta> we watched the sunset out there
Jun 30 14:44:26 <jasta> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4356051 -- thats a perfect photo showing the cliff we were on, watching all this stuff
Jun 30 14:44:45 <tethridge> beautiful
Jun 30 14:44:55 <tethridge> I bet the water is still pretty cold
Jun 30 14:45:02 <jasta> i cant find any pictures there of the view tho.  seems everyone just took photos of structures :)
Jun 30 14:45:12 <jasta> oh yeah, it was like 42 deg F
Jun 30 14:45:42 <jasta> but man it was an awesome deal
Jun 30 14:45:47 <jasta> im so tired tho
Jun 30 14:45:56 <jasta> between hiking and kayaking for 2 days straight, sheesh :)
Jun 30 14:46:20 <jasta> and im feeling pretty crispy after all that direct exposure to the sun :)
Jun 30 14:46:56 <jasta> it was my birthday yesterday, so that was a pretty cool experience to celebrate
Jun 30 14:49:14 <Dougie187> hey michaelnovakjr: did you get that thing i sent you in here?
Jun 30 14:49:33 <Dougie187> thats good you had fun jasta
Jun 30 14:49:35 <michaelnovakjr> ?
Jun 30 14:49:58 <tethridge> well, happy belated birthday
Jun 30 14:50:06 <jasta> thanks
Jun 30 14:50:07 <Dougie187> it was about the M1530 i think.
Jun 30 14:50:20 <Dougie187> lemme look one sec
Jun 30 14:50:25 <Dougie187> i sent it like 2 days ago
Jun 30 14:50:28 <michaelnovakjr> ok what was it?
Jun 30 14:51:23 <Dougie187> http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/bogo_deals?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&dgc=CJ&cid=24471&lid=755922
Jun 30 14:51:37 <Dougie187> buy one get one 1/2 off.
Jun 30 14:52:12 <Dougie187> also,
Jun 30 14:52:19 <Dougie187> oh, nm its expired.
Jun 30 14:52:32 <Dougie187> on the 28th they had a M1330 at staples for 800
Jun 30 14:52:33 <michaelnovakjr> damn!
Jun 30 14:52:48 <michaelnovakjr> i would have snatched that
Jun 30 14:53:00 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 30 14:53:06 <Dougie187> here is a review of it.
Jun 30 14:53:08 <Dougie187> http://bensbargains.net/deal/68909/
Jun 30 14:54:53 <michaelnovakjr> i like the look of it
Jun 30 14:57:40 <Dougie187> seems like the review is good.
Jun 30 14:57:53 <Dougie187> ill let you know if i see any more deals for it though
Jun 30 14:59:40 <michaelnovakjr> thanks!
Jun 30 14:59:52 <michaelnovakjr> staples doesn't have it for $800 anymore?
Jun 30 15:01:52 <Dougie187> not afaik
Jun 30 15:01:55 <Dougie187> it says expired.
Jun 30 15:01:59 <Dougie187> and it was posted on the 28th
Jun 30 15:02:03 <michaelnovakjr> damn
Jun 30 15:02:06 <Dougie187> you can always call though
Jun 30 15:02:12 <michaelnovakjr> true
Jun 30 15:02:13 <tethridge> I saw those at sams club
Jun 30 15:02:39 <tethridge> I compared the built in web cam with the hp laptops, and the hp web cams were much better
Jun 30 15:02:47 <tethridge> I do like the new look of the dells though
Jun 30 15:02:57 <michaelnovakjr> yea, im not really much of a webcam user
Jun 30 15:03:09 <jasta> who uses webcams anyway?
Jun 30 15:03:10 <tethridge> I'm not either, but it was a huge difference
Jun 30 15:03:23 <michaelnovakjr> i have a macbook pro and i have never used it
Jun 30 15:03:37 <tethridge> I know I'm looking at having them to let the grandparents talk with my kids
Jun 30 15:03:38 <Dougie187> yeah, who cares about webcames?
Jun 30 15:03:38 <jasta> the webcam in my lenovo doesnt work in linux and i couldnt care less
Jun 30 15:03:39 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 30 15:04:00 <Dougie187> if thats what your looking for in a laptop its not that hard to find a cheap one and then get a decent webcam added on.
Jun 30 15:04:08 <michaelnovakjr> haha yea i
Jun 30 15:04:16 <tethridge> yeah, but most laptops come with web cams today
Jun 30 15:04:24 <tethridge> gotta copy apple, ya know
Jun 30 15:04:28 <Dougie187> lol
Jun 30 15:04:36 <Dougie187> that doesnt mean they are any good though, or that people want them.
Jun 30 15:04:42 <michaelnovakjr> tethridge: of course :)
Jun 30 15:04:50 <Dougie187> if i could save money by not getting a webcam in a laptop i wouldnt get one.
Jun 30 15:05:53 <michaelnovakjr> me too
Jun 30 15:06:36 <tethridge> hopefully they will get to be so cheap that it won't even matter
Jun 30 15:06:49 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jun 30 15:07:19 <Dougie187> i mean, its not like they are any better then cell phone cameras.
Jun 30 15:08:02 <michaelnovakjr> what do you mean? my camera phone replaced my digital camera?
Jun 30 15:08:55 <Dougie187> lol, no replaced your laptops webcam
Jun 30 15:09:20 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 30 15:09:33 <Dougie187> man, now i have to get addicted to diablo 2 again...
Jun 30 15:09:33 <michaelnovakjr> netgear released an open source router today
Jun 30 15:09:36 <Dougie187> :(
Jun 30 15:10:02 <Dougie187> thats cool.
Jun 30 15:10:10 <michaelnovakjr> 70 bucks
Jun 30 15:10:20 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: really? which one?
Jun 30 15:10:37 <michaelnovakjr> its based on the white wireless one they have now
Jun 30 15:10:52 <michaelnovakjr> they actually look the same, but its the firmware that makes it special
Jun 30 15:11:15 <michaelnovakjr> http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=9185
Jun 30 15:11:15 <jasta> openwrt supported?
Jun 30 15:11:29 <michaelnovakjr> ^ that's the link to an article about it ^
Jun 30 15:11:33 <tethridge> yeah
Jun 30 15:12:48 <michaelnovakjr> i hope it sticks... there should be routers available that you can customize more
Jun 30 15:13:08 <Dougie187> i use to own that router.
Jun 30 15:13:11 <Dougie187> and it melted on me.
Jun 30 15:13:16 <Dougie187> it over heated, and melted.
Jun 30 15:13:19 <Dougie187> literally.
Jun 30 15:13:41 <Dougie187> btw, jasta. I got War3 running in linux.
Jun 30 15:13:58 <michaelnovakjr> i have that router now.... hasn't given me any trouble
Jun 30 15:14:05 <Dougie187> well.
Jun 30 15:14:06 <Dougie187> it melted on me.
Jun 30 15:14:08 <michaelnovakjr> did better than the linksys one i had
Jun 30 15:14:11 <Dougie187> only router that has done that.
Jun 30 15:14:30 <Dougie187> i think it still works.
Jun 30 15:14:36 <Dougie187> but it has a hole in the top of it.
Jun 30 15:14:40 <Dougie187> and its all brown now.
Jun 30 15:15:51 <michaelnovakjr> damn
Jun 30 15:15:56 <Dougie187> yeah
Jun 30 15:16:06 <Dougie187> i bought a linksys one after that.
Jun 30 15:16:26 <michaelnovakjr> i have had bad luck with linksys
Jun 30 15:16:36 <trigatch4> anybody here good with photoshop?
Jun 30 15:17:00 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jun 30 15:17:02 <trigatch4> http://phandroid.com/2008/06/30/android-robot-photoshop-contest-win-50/
Jun 30 15:17:41 <michaelnovakjr> we are really reaching for headlines huh
Jun 30 15:19:54 <trigatch4> hahaha
Jun 30 15:19:58 <trigatch4> thats the point
Jun 30 15:20:06 <trigatch4> there is nothing newsworthy going on at the moment
Jun 30 15:23:25 <michaelnovakjr> because you are running a news site about a product that isn't available :)
Jun 30 15:24:27 <trigatch4> this is true
Jun 30 15:24:53 <trigatch4> we're all guilty of following a highly anticipated product launch... sue me! ;)
Jun 30 15:25:46 <michaelnovakjr> i'm actually trying to develop for it :)
Jun 30 15:35:40 <trigatch4> oh stop being such a nerd
Jun 30 15:35:43 <trigatch4> you're guilty, you know it
Jun 30 15:35:48 <trigatch4> ;)
Jun 30 15:36:16 <michaelnovakjr> guilty of what?
Jun 30 15:37:20 <trigatch4> loving phandroid ;) hehe jk
Jun 30 15:37:24 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jun 30 15:37:35 <trigatch4> gobbling up every bit of android info you can
Jun 30 15:37:57 <michaelnovakjr> if you haven't noticed i absolutely hate unfounded hype and speculation
Jun 30 15:38:21 <trigatch4> unfounded hype i agree
Jun 30 15:38:27 <trigatch4> what about founded hype
Jun 30 15:38:33 <trigatch4> or would you consider that an oxymoron
Jun 30 15:38:58 <michaelnovakjr> well, there could be founded hype :)
Jun 30 15:39:01 <trigatch4> and if "unfounded hype" is an oxymoron than the word "unfounded" would be redundant, meaning you hate hype in general
Jun 30 15:39:04 <trigatch4> gotchya
Jun 30 16:24:44 <jasta> morrildl: check out where i was: http://tinyurl.com/4osyr8
Jun 30 16:24:57 <jasta> follow the island all the way to the state park in the upper left...i stood at the tip there :)
Jun 30 16:25:13 <jasta> >180deg panoramic view of the water, canadian islands, etc.
Jun 30 16:25:27 <jasta> the only thing that's there is a light house
Jun 30 16:28:10 <jasta> anyway, off to work
Jun 30 16:28:16 <morrildl> nice, you can see the lighthouse :)
Jun 30 16:28:25 <morrildl> (in satellite view)
Jun 30 16:28:34 <jasta> kayaked from roche harbor, which is at the big island below it
Jun 30 16:28:40 <morrildl> cool
Jun 30 16:30:31 <jasta> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4356051 -- we were standing on that cliff watching the sunset...
Jun 30 16:31:04 <jasta> what you dont see from that picture is that everything to the right is a stunning landscape of mountains, islands, and open water
Jun 30 16:31:13 <jasta> ill post my geotagged pictures tomorrow :)
Jun 30 16:32:52 <morrildl> jasta: nice :)
Jun 30 18:45:07 <jasta> morrildl: *poke*, check pm
Jun 30 18:47:01 * jasta raises an eyebrow at mxcl
Jun 30 18:47:09 <jasta> @last.fm, eh?
Jun 30 18:48:56 <morrildl> jasta: thanks, got it
Jun 30 18:49:01 <morrildl> gotta run to a meeting, will digest in a bit
Jun 30 19:08:21 * jasta stumbles upon something interesting
Jun 30 19:08:26 <jasta> Android code appearing in the Gears source tree ;)
Jun 30 19:08:43 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 30 19:09:19 <jasta> looks like its on accident tho
Jun 30 19:09:38 <michaelnovakjr> what makes you think that?
Jun 30 19:09:50 <jasta> well, the source code would not build of course
Jun 30 19:09:54 <jasta> its missing all sorts of stuff
Jun 30 19:10:09 <jasta> like one module implements the android message queue, using some interface none of us could have seen
Jun 30 19:10:18 <jasta> and it is missing the header(s) necessary to make that code work
Jun 30 19:10:33 <jasta> in fact, it's entirely missing the directory that the headers are alleged to be in, gears/base/android
Jun 30 19:10:37 <michaelnovakjr> interesting
Jun 30 19:10:49 <jasta> other places where android is mentioned, its just a TODO stub :
Jun 30 19:11:01 <jasta> )#include "gears/base/android/java_jni.h"
Jun 30 19:11:08 <jasta> i'd like to see that file ;)
Jun 30 19:12:04 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 30 19:12:15 <jasta> apparently we know that John Ripley is the guy implementing the support :)
Jun 30 19:12:25 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jun 30 19:12:27 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 30 19:12:34 <michaelnovakjr> harass him :)
Jun 30 19:17:09 <jasta> as of late, ive been exploring around other open source projects of googles
Jun 30 19:17:15 <jasta> getting a sense for how they will handle this, structure the code, etc
Jun 30 19:24:58 <michaelnovakjr> i've played around with the web toolkit
Jun 30 19:45:16 <morrildl> I wouldn't take Gears, GWT, etc. as particularly representative of how Android's source will be structured
Jun 30 19:47:17 <jasta> morrildl: perhaps you wouldn't, but you also have privileged information where we have none.
Jun 30 19:48:13 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 30 19:48:17 <morrildl> well
Jun 30 19:48:22 <michaelnovakjr> not that there's anything wrong with those projects :)
Jun 30 19:48:39 <morrildl> I'm just referring to the fact that Android will be quite a bit larger than Gears and GWT :)
Jun 30 19:48:48 <morrildl> the build system will look radically different, etc.
Jun 30 19:48:49 <michaelnovakjr> absolutely
Jun 30 19:49:05 <morrildl> I'm just saying that there's no internal best practice or standard way of structuring code or setting up a build system
Jun 30 19:49:16 <morrildl> ...for the open source projects, I mean
Jun 30 19:49:22 <morrildl> internal-only code has various standards
Jun 30 19:49:43 <michaelnovakjr> i still want to work for google
Jun 30 19:54:25 <morrildl> Today's fun Android fact:
Jun 30 19:54:38 <jasta> hey you guys see that Diablo3 was announced? :)
Jun 30 19:55:34 <jasta> and it looks really gory :)
Jun 30 19:55:41 <morrildl> A full Android rebuild takes around 25 minutes (excluding the kernel, which is pre-built in the tree), on a quad-core box
Jun 30 19:56:20 <jasta> well, g++ is really inefficient
Jun 30 19:56:26 <romainguy_> morrildl: and one hour on a MacBook Pro Core2Duo :)
Jun 30 19:56:28 <jasta> and probably so is javac :)
Jun 30 19:56:45 <morrildl> The GWT guys discovered that one of the hugest time sinks is jar
Jun 30 19:56:45 <michaelnovakjr> jeez that is a long time
Jun 30 19:56:54 <morrildl> they do some really dumb N^2 things in jar
Jun 30 19:56:57 <romainguy_> actually javac is probably one of the fastest part of our build :)
Jun 30 19:56:58 <jasta> also, is the build system taking advantage of multiple cores?
Jun 30 19:57:04 <morrildl> jasta: yes
Jun 30 19:57:06 <romainguy_> jasta: yes
Jun 30 19:57:21 <romainguy_> 25 minutes it with make -j 8
Jun 30 19:57:25 <romainguy_> -it+is
Jun 30 19:57:26 <morrildl> I remember building a Linux kernel that took an hour and a half
Jun 30 19:57:37 <morrildl> (back in the day I mean)
Jun 30 19:57:40 <michaelnovakjr> ah
Jun 30 19:57:40 <jasta> make -j greatly exceeding the number of cores available is less than optimal
Jun 30 19:57:51 <michaelnovakjr> i was going to say, i did that yesterday and it was pretty fast
Jun 30 19:57:52 <morrildl> so an entire OS in 25 minutes is pretty fast all things considered :)
Jun 30 19:57:57 <morrildl> jasta: depends on what your build is doing
Jun 30 19:58:02 <romainguy_> jasta: not true, -j 8 is faster than -j 4
Jun 30 19:58:06 <morrildl> if you have a lot of things blocking on I/O -- which we do -- then it can help
Jun 30 19:58:07 <romainguy_> on our 4-core boxes
Jun 30 19:58:34 <jasta> romainguy_: the make team actually recommends you marginally exceed the number of cares available, but not greatly exceeding it.  as their job management overhead is great.
Jun 30 19:58:44 <jasta> cores*
Jun 30 19:59:02 <morrildl> yeah I haven't seen much difference between -j6 and -j8
Jun 30 19:59:03 <romainguy_> I don't care what they say, for this build on this machine, -j 8 seems to be the sweet spot
Jun 30 19:59:12 <jasta> romainguy_: well, -j6 is what theyd recommend
Jun 30 19:59:22 <jasta> and as morrildl just confirmed, that is consistent with what the make team says.
Jun 30 19:59:31 <romainguy_> again I don't care
Jun 30 19:59:37 <romainguy_> I'm the one doing these builds every day
Jun 30 19:59:41 <jasta> all it means is that you don't care that they are correct ;)
Jun 30 19:59:41 <morrildl> heh :)
Jun 30 20:00:04 <morrildl> i do a build maybe a couple times a week
Jun 30 20:00:17 <cutmasta> hy
Jun 30 20:00:18 <morrildl> so to me 25 vs. 35 minutes isn't that much
Jun 30 20:00:23 <morrildl> I defer to romainguy_ :)
Jun 30 20:00:49 <romainguy_> morrildl: I do at least half a dozen full builds a day, at least one of them being a clean build :)
Jun 30 20:00:59 <jasta> still, i'd imagine a great majority of your code is in C++, and g++ is miserably slow ;)
Jun 30 20:01:08 <morrildl> eh
Jun 30 20:01:20 <morrildl> of the native code, a huge portion of it is WebKit
Jun 30 20:01:27 <morrildl> the majority is probably in Java source
Jun 30 20:01:39 <morrildl> although I've never done the math
Jun 30 20:01:51 <morrildl> but there's less native code than you might think
Jun 30 20:01:53 <jasta> morrildl: well, you'd be in a better position to know that than i
Jun 30 20:01:59 <jasta> i'm just speculating, after all
Jun 30 20:02:20 <jasta> but also, isn't webkit written in C++?
Jun 30 20:02:23 <morrildl> is it?
Jun 30 20:02:26 <romainguy_> dex is taking a lot of time to
Jun 30 20:02:27 <jasta> i don't know
Jun 30 20:02:28 <jasta> never looked
Jun 30 20:02:33 <morrildl> I know very nearly jack about WebKit
Jun 30 20:03:17 <jasta> looks like it is C++, yes.
Jun 30 20:03:35 <jasta> tried to google it and happened upon a coding style guide, which gives examples using C++
Jun 30 20:03:39 <romainguy_> WebKit is C++
Jun 30 20:03:58 <jasta> right, and how much of that 25 minutes is webkit?  a lot, i bet ;)
Jun 30 20:04:47 <jasta> i have observed comparably sized projects taking an order of magnitude longer to build as a result of C++ (and g++) features being utilized.
Jun 30 20:04:58 <jasta> C projects, using gcc, tend to compile much faster :)
Jun 30 20:39:19 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, do you use a lot of c++?
Jun 30 20:39:50 <jasta> no, not at all
Jun 30 20:39:57 <michaelnovakjr> yea, same here
Jun 30 20:40:03 <michaelnovakjr> rarely do i use
Jun 30 20:40:05 <jasta> i really wouldn't consider it fair to say i even know C++
Jun 30 20:40:13 <jasta> since ive never written anything significant using it
Jun 30 20:40:50 <michaelnovakjr> i'm half way through a diff tool using c++ (qt)
Jun 30 20:40:54 <jasta> it has not appealed to me.  until very recently, it was no where i wanted to be :)
Jun 30 20:41:33 <michaelnovakjr> i'm writing a diff tool in qt that can be used on windows and linux/unix to read diffs with a gui
Jun 30 20:41:45 <michaelnovakjr> the key point of the whole thing is the windows
Jun 30 20:41:53 <michaelnovakjr> trying to read linux diffs on windows sucks!
Jun 30 20:42:10 <tethridge> michaelnovakjr, have you seen meld?
Jun 30 20:42:13 <tethridge> it's gtk
Jun 30 20:42:18 <tethridge> so it should run on windows
Jun 30 20:42:29 <michaelnovakjr> nope... it didn't come up in my numerous searches
Jun 30 20:42:55 <tethridge> check it out. http://meld.sourceforge.net/
Jun 30 20:43:42 <tethridge> I use it with hardy.  Those screen shots use an old theme, but it works fine.
Jun 30 20:44:04 <tethridge> when I see screen shots with old themes I usually think "unmaintained code"
Jun 30 20:44:37 <michaelnovakjr> it uses gnome
Jun 30 20:44:45 <michaelnovakjr> or i should say requires gnome2
Jun 30 20:44:45 <tethridge> gtk
Jun 30 20:44:57 <tethridge> ?
Jun 30 20:44:59 <michaelnovakjr> It is assumed that you have gnome2 and python2.2 development packages installed.
Jun 30 20:45:21 <tethridge> oh well
Jun 30 20:45:42 <tethridge> what are you using windows for anyway?  :-)
Jun 30 20:45:55 <michaelnovakjr> i'm not :)... other people are
Jun 30 20:45:59 <tethridge> there are plenty of image viewers you can use for porn
Jun 30 20:46:00 <michaelnovakjr> they can't open my diffs
Jun 30 20:46:02 <tethridge> on linux
Jun 30 20:46:06 <tethridge> :-)
Jun 30 20:46:13 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 30 20:46:35 <tethridge> are you just doing a diff using the unified format?
Jun 30 20:46:50 <michaelnovakjr> i'm basically porting Kompare to windows
Jun 30 20:46:57 <michaelnovakjr> but making it cross-platform
Jun 30 20:47:11 <michaelnovakjr> Kompare has some KDE stuff in it which would make it fail on windows
Jun 30 20:47:33 <tethridge> can they not use the diff tool that comes with visual studio?
Jun 30 20:47:41 <tethridge> I assume that they are developers too
Jun 30 20:47:58 <michaelnovakjr> it doesn't like linux diffs
Jun 30 20:48:09 <tethridge> what format is your diff?
Jun 30 20:48:23 <michaelnovakjr> its generated from svn
Jun 30 20:48:48 <tethridge> I believe that is just a diff using unified diff format
Jun 30 20:48:56 <tethridge> according to the diff man page
Jun 30 20:50:32 <f00f-> diff -u
Jun 30 20:50:45 <jasta> svn diff, by default, produces unidiff.
Jun 30 20:50:49 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jun 30 20:50:56 <michaelnovakjr> but it doesn't open propertly
Jun 30 20:51:04 <jasta> you should work to support all the formats that diff can output, though :)
Jun 30 20:51:15 <michaelnovakjr> that is the plan
Jun 30 20:51:21 <tethridge> jasta, is unidiff the same as the unified diff format?
Jun 30 20:51:26 <jasta> yes
Jun 30 20:51:29 <michaelnovakjr> yes
Jun 30 20:51:39 <michaelnovakjr> its been a big pain dealing with windows
Jun 30 20:52:02 <tethridge> can I use patch to apply any diff file that uses the unified diff format?
Jun 30 20:52:30 <michaelnovakjr> yes
Jun 30 20:52:36 <michaelnovakjr> unified diff it understands
Jun 30 20:52:59 <tethridge> we use clearcase at work and it can't create a single file with all of the changes
Jun 30 20:53:11 <michaelnovakjr> ?
Jun 30 20:53:15 <michaelnovakjr> clearcase on what?
Jun 30 20:53:19 <tethridge> I've been using diff -ur for generating a patch for code reviews
Jun 30 20:53:32 <tethridge> clearcase is IBM's source control system
Jun 30 20:53:44 <tethridge> I hate it with a passion
Jun 30 20:53:46 <michaelnovakjr> oo
Jun 30 20:54:02 <michaelnovakjr> does clearcase output unified diffs?
Jun 30 20:54:24 <tethridge> unfortunately, the people that get to decide what source control system we use love it and have customized the hell out of it.
Jun 30 20:54:26 <tethridge> no
Jun 30 20:55:22 <tethridge> they basically have modified it to give us the ability to have private views, similar to how bazaar and git allow for devs to create a bunch of branches locally
Jun 30 20:55:39 <tethridge> the only problem is that we have to merge views all the time
Jun 30 20:55:49 <michaelnovakjr> stupid
Jun 30 20:55:55 <michaelnovakjr> why not just use git
Jun 30 20:56:00 <tethridge> so you pretty much can't look at a file and go back in history and see when something has changed.
Jun 30 20:56:05 <michaelnovakjr> it would be a hell of alot easier
Jun 30 20:56:08 <tethridge> I know
Jun 30 20:56:19 <michaelnovakjr> oh lets fake git instead of using it
Jun 30 20:56:48 <tethridge> there is just too much noise.  Tons of merges that make it impossible to see when the change occurred without a lot of work.
Jun 30 20:57:18 <tethridge> plus, let's spend a assload of money on the solution.  :-)
Jun 30 20:57:22 <michaelnovakjr> ye
Jun 30 20:57:23 <michaelnovakjr> a
Jun 30 20:57:39 <michaelnovakjr> i have been using git a bit more and i really like it
Jun 30 20:57:48 <michaelnovakjr> its very cool
Jun 30 20:58:04 <michaelnovakjr> my only closed sourced scm i used was sourcesafe
Jun 30 20:58:13 <michaelnovakjr> i will never use another :)
Jun 30 20:58:18 <tethridge> so you say
Jun 30 20:58:47 <tethridge> just wait until an employer offers you a large salary with great benefits
Jun 30 20:59:05 <tethridge> the last thing you'll be thinking of is, "wonder what source control system they use?"
Jun 30 20:59:37 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 30 20:59:48 <michaelnovakjr> we switched to svn :)
Jun 30 21:00:13 <tethridge> It seems that a lot of projects are now switching to bzr or git from svn
Jun 30 21:01:14 <michaelnovakjr> git is nice in that you don't have to have network access to gain functionalities of the repository system
Jun 30 21:01:22 <tethridge> yeah
Jun 30 21:01:34 <tethridge> which is why I think a lot of open source projects are switching
Jun 30 21:01:39 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jun 30 21:01:52 <tethridge> it makes it easier for devs that don't have access to checkin too
Jun 30 21:02:07 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jun 30 21:02:23 <michaelnovakjr> your remote repo really only has to be the public one
Jun 30 21:02:27 <tethridge> that always was a pain trying to create new patches when you didn't have commit permission when using svn
Jun 30 21:02:34 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jun 30 21:03:02 <michaelnovakjr> essentially each developer has their own repository.
Jun 30 21:03:53 <michaelnovakjr> as far as i know there's no native windows git
Jun 30 21:06:03 <tethridge> I believe that bzr should work
Jun 30 21:06:06 <tethridge> it's just python
Jun 30 21:06:11 <michaelnovakjr> but that's not git
Jun 30 21:06:30 <tethridge> I prefer it because it seems to be more user friendly
Jun 30 21:06:42 <tethridge> basically the same feature set
Jun 30 21:06:57 <tethridge> git is faster, but at the expense of some data
Jun 30 21:07:13 <michaelnovakjr> true, but if your using git, it won't recognize bazaar repos
Jun 30 21:07:33 <michaelnovakjr> it could discourage some people from using git because of the lack of support
Jun 30 21:07:38 <f00f-> just quit and use RCS
Jun 30 21:07:49 <tethridge> rcs, right
Jun 30 21:08:07 <tethridge> my company used a bastardized version of rcs before we used clear case
Jun 30 21:08:23 <tethridge> they don't make good choices when it comes to source control
Jun 30 21:08:24 <f00f-> yeah
Jun 30 21:08:31 <f00f-> we;re gonna have to use CC soon
Jun 30 21:08:41 <tethridge> I feel sorry for you
Jun 30 21:08:46 <michaelnovakjr> is rcs distributed?
Jun 30 21:08:49 <tethridge> no
Jun 30 21:08:59 <tethridge> cvs was built on top of rcs
Jun 30 21:09:03 <tethridge> rcs is old
Jun 30 21:09:08 <michaelnovakjr> damn
Jun 30 21:09:13 <f00f-> ever used CMVC?
Jun 30 21:09:23 <tethridge> no
Jun 30 21:09:44 <michaelnovakjr> another ibm product? what's with the proprietary stuff?
Jun 30 21:10:02 <f00f-> apparently very popular on mainframes for SCM
Jun 30 21:10:20 <michaelnovakjr> its not supported anymore though?
Jun 30 21:10:25 <tethridge> what really sucks about cc is that it uses a custom file system
Jun 30 21:10:28 <michaelnovakjr> that was before they bought clearcase
Jun 30 21:10:43 <tethridge> so you have to much with kernel drivers just to use it
Jun 30 21:10:48 <tethridge> assuming you're using linux
Jun 30 21:10:56 <f00f-> that's true
Jun 30 21:11:28 <michaelnovakjr> i was playing around with the idea of making git run natively on windows, much like svn does
Jun 30 21:11:50 <tethridge> bzr has lots of plugins
Jun 30 21:11:56 <tethridge> one of them is a connector for svn
Jun 30 21:12:09 <tethridge> so you can create a bzr repo that uses svn in the background
Jun 30 21:12:20 <michaelnovakjr> i don't get that
Jun 30 21:12:20 <tethridge> you use the bzr commands and it translates it to svn
Jun 30 21:12:28 <michaelnovakjr> why not just use svn then?
Jun 30 21:12:36 <tethridge> say you don't have commit access
Jun 30 21:12:46 <tethridge> create a bzr repo and have all of the commits you want
Jun 30 21:12:52 <tethridge> create branches, etc
Jun 30 21:13:14 <tethridge> or like me, don't like svn and prefer bzr, then use bzr
Jun 30 21:13:15 <michaelnovakjr> interesting
Jun 30 21:13:24 <tethridge> I wish there was a clear case plugin
Jun 30 21:13:40 <michaelnovakjr> i think svn is very easy and not difficult to use
Jun 30 21:13:56 <michaelnovakjr> its pretty powerful for what it does
Jun 30 21:14:01 <tethridge> there are problems with svn that bzr was designed to solve
Jun 30 21:14:12 <michaelnovakjr> but the distributed model brings more power to the management
Jun 30 21:14:17 <tethridge> I imagine that git solves the same problems
Jun 30 21:14:35 <tethridge> you mean devs
Jun 30 21:14:37 <tethridge> ?
Jun 30 21:14:37 <michaelnovakjr> the distributed model took care of the central repository concept
Jun 30 21:14:57 <michaelnovakjr> mercurial is a scm similar to git
Jun 30 21:15:40 <tethridge> or bitkeeper
Jun 30 21:15:51 <tethridge> mysql just switched from bitkeeper to bzr
Jun 30 21:16:00 <tethridge> that's a pretty big endorsement
Jun 30 21:16:08 <f00f-> that sux
Jun 30 21:16:10 <michaelnovakjr> bitkeeper was the 'inspiration' behind git
Jun 30 21:16:10 <f00f-> bitkeeper owns
Jun 30 21:16:21 <tethridge> yep
Jun 30 21:16:25 <f00f-> they raped BK to create git
Jun 30 21:16:31 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jun 30 21:16:36 <tethridge> bitkeeper brought it own themselves
Jun 30 21:16:57 <f00f-> yeah i guess LKML has a lot of discussion about that
Jun 30 21:17:10 <michaelnovakjr> the concept is bitkeeper but i don't know about raped
Jun 30 21:17:12 <tethridge> they should know better than try to keep bearded linux devs from using the product the way they wanted.
Jun 30 21:17:47 <tethridge> they will go off and create something better, if they have to, and they forced them to do that
Jun 30 21:25:22 <jasta> i have been getting a lot of bizarre messages lately
Jun 30 21:25:39 <jasta> maybe its because its my birthday and everyone like feels bad or something
Jun 30 21:25:49 <jasta> my ex gf messaged me and told me i was the shit
Jun 30 21:26:16 <jasta> and some girl i'd classify as "it's complicated" just messaged me saying she was thinking of me as she was leaving France today
Jun 30 21:27:02 <jasta> some girl, btw, i'd also never expected to hear from ...*EVER* again :)
Jun 30 21:33:56 <tethridge> jasta, quit bragging.  :-)
Jun 30 21:34:28 <tethridge> or did I read that wrong.  Your ex said you were shit or were "tha" shit?
Jun 30 21:35:11 <jasta> im not bragging, my ex is insane and i dont want to talk to her
Jun 30 21:35:16 <jasta> and so is that other chick
Jun 30 21:35:27 <jasta> im just reflecting on how odd that both of them should message me this week
Jun 30 21:37:37 <tethridge> sounds like fun
Jun 30 21:44:27 <jasta> actually, my ex isn't really insane, she's just suffering from the small town syndrome
Jun 30 22:38:05 <Dougie187> good evening everyone.
Jun 30 22:46:25 <AttractiveApe> good evenink.
Jun 30 22:49:37 <jasta> hehe, the example in this windows xp set up for Computer Description is:
Jun 30 22:49:47 <jasta> "For example, you could use 'The Chavez Family Computer'"
Jun 30 22:50:07 <f00f-> HAHA
Jun 30 22:50:10 <jasta> Chavez?  For a Seattle-based software company?  Hehe.
Jun 30 22:55:55 <romainguy_> f00f-: check your email :p
Jun 30 22:57:31 <jasta> man, i love when i get a brand new Windows laptop shipped in the mail and within the first minute of using it something goes horribly wrong
Jun 30 22:57:34 <jasta> explorer just crashed
Jun 30 23:01:52 <jasta> oh well, restart and run unattended hehe
Jun 30 23:04:56 <f00f-> very nice romainguy_ can't wait :)
Jun 30 23:08:42 <jasta> hmm, ?
Jun 30 23:08:55 <duey> jasta: they are sharing pics
Jun 30 23:11:28 <f00f-> duey: you into fencing?
Jun 30 23:11:31 <jasta> im hoping to get the pics from my trip up tonight or tomorrow
Jun 30 23:11:36 <jasta> anxious to show those :)
Jun 30 23:11:47 <f00f-> oh yeah, can't wait. since you're a photog or something? :)
Jun 30 23:12:03 <duey> f00f-: of course ;)
Jun 30 23:12:25 <f00f-> thus duey likes duels, ok thought so
Jun 30 23:23:15 * jasta jams around to Minus The Bear
Jun 30 23:23:32 <jasta> kept listening to The Pig War when I was in the San Juans hehe.  that song is about that place ;)
Jun 30 23:23:32 <dcordes_> hi
Jun 30 23:23:40 <dcordes_> is  somebody aware of a simple console application with root access?
Jun 30 23:23:56 <f00f-> dude
Jun 30 23:24:06 <jasta> dcordes_: hmm?  on Android?
Jun 30 23:24:07 <f00f-> is Minus The Bear the type of group that played at I/O ?
Jun 30 23:24:15 <jasta> f00f-: i dont know, but i doubt it VERY much
Jun 30 23:24:29 <f00f-> cause they sucked, good for one time comedy, not for listening or enjoying imho
Jun 30 23:24:49 <jasta> minus the bear isn't a "comedy" band
Jun 30 23:25:04 <jasta> it's a bad ass rock band
Jun 30 23:25:18 <f00f-> like metallica etc.
Jun 30 23:25:26 <jasta> lol, no
Jun 30 23:25:36 <dcordes_> jasta: yep
Jun 30 23:25:39 <dcordes_> on android
Jun 30 23:26:03 <jasta> it's an indie rock band, some people call the style "math rock" just because it's very elaborate, well composed music
Jun 30 23:26:12 <dcordes_> math rock :)
Jun 30 23:26:17 * dcordes_ hates math
Jun 30 23:26:41 <jasta> the members have played in these arms are snakes, kill sadie, and botch
Jun 30 23:26:47 <jasta> but minus the bear, i think, is nothing like that
Jun 30 23:26:52 <f00f-> hmm k
Jun 30 23:27:01 <dcordes_> there is a man bear pig in southpark
Jun 30 23:27:33 <dcordes_> it has the legs of a human, the upper part of a bear and the left ear of a pig
Jun 30 23:27:44 <jasta> f00f-: one of their more popular songs, if you are into popular, is The Drilling.
Jun 30 23:27:58 <jasta> im sure you can find it on songza or hypem
Jun 30 23:28:25 <f00f-> heh, i'm so out of date, i dont even know what those are
Jun 30 23:28:30 <dcordes_> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 24.236/25.413/29.678/0.424 ms, pipe 3, ipg/ewma 37.746/25.480 ms
Jun 30 23:28:34 <dcordes_> oops
Jun 30 23:28:50 <jasta> f00f-: they're robot sites that make music easy to find and stream from a web browser
Jun 30 23:28:56 <dcordes_> can somebody help me with my question?
Jun 30 23:29:14 <f00f-> ah ok
Jun 30 23:29:15 <jasta> dcordes_: can you explain it better?
Jun 30 23:29:25 <dcordes_> no
Jun 30 23:29:32 <jasta> then no
Jun 30 23:29:53 <dcordes_> what part of the question don't you understand?
Jun 30 23:30:07 <dcordes_> inside the graphical user interface of the android root filesystem
Jun 30 23:30:10 <dcordes_> the usual one
Jun 30 23:30:21 <jasta> dcordes_: are you asking if someone has compiled a C program interacting with stdin/stdout on the android image and kernal?
Jun 30 23:30:23 <dcordes_> availbale from the current sdk. is it possiblet here to have a program
Jun 30 23:30:24 <jasta> kernel*
Jun 30 23:30:30 <dcordes_> which provides acces to a rootshell?
Jun 30 23:30:54 <jasta> dcordes_: you mean can you make a terminal application which runs as root in Java on Android?
Jun 30 23:31:08 <jasta> the short answer is yes, and Google has already made one (which is not availabel to the public)
Jun 30 23:31:12 <jasta> you would install it into /system to give it root access
Jun 30 23:31:16 <jasta> instead of /data
Jun 30 23:31:46 <jasta> the long answer is no, because the terminal device is not available from Java.
Jun 30 23:31:54 <dcordes_> ok cool so android determines the rights of a binary by its path?
Jun 30 23:31:57 <jasta> so the terminal will be sucky as you can imagine :)
Jun 30 23:32:08 <dcordes_> oh
Jun 30 23:32:09 <dcordes_> ok
Jun 30 23:32:10 <jasta> dcordes_: currently, though i doubt very much that will be so forever.
Jun 30 23:32:10 <f00f-> dcordes_: unix permissions are used to segregate apps, among other things
Jun 30 23:32:23 <dcordes_> well we don't need it but it would be useful
Jun 30 23:32:31 <jasta> currently, apps installed to /system get setuid to some privileged user, probably root
Jun 30 23:32:40 <dcordes_> ok
Jun 30 23:32:41 <jasta> but again, i doubt very much that is their permanent strategy
Jun 30 23:33:26 <jasta> they would be wise to remove that ability entirely: if you need root, then you ought to know how to make it happen without their UI shell :)
Jun 30 23:33:26 <dcordes_> I wanted to enable poeple to set their gprs APN from their androids on kaiser/polaris but we already have a different way
Jun 30 23:33:41 <dcordes_> yea bootup angstrom
Jun 30 23:33:47 <dcordes_> or something like that
Jun 30 23:33:48 <dcordes_> well
Jun 30 23:33:52 <dcordes_> thanks for the insight guys
Jun 30 23:33:53 <jasta> dcordes_: i recommend getting USB functioning on those devices, so that you can use adb shell
Jun 30 23:33:57 <jasta> as the engineers themselves do
Jun 30 23:34:04 <dcordes_> yes that's a long term goal anyway
Jun 30 23:34:15 <dcordes_> also mmc
Jun 30 23:34:16 <jasta> that said, i looked into creating a good termianl app for the kaiser
Jun 30 23:34:39 <jasta> but stopped because i would need to create a JNI layer to access the terminal device
Jun 30 23:34:48 <jasta> which would be lame, and more work than i wanted to put into the project
Jun 30 23:34:53 <dcordes_> jasta: do you have one kaiser?
Jun 30 23:34:58 <jasta> Google's terminal is basically just an interactive shell script
Jun 30 23:35:04 <jasta> dcordes_: I did, for a time.
Jun 30 23:35:24 <dcordes_> do you have other htcs?
Jun 30 23:35:29 <jasta> no
Jun 30 23:36:57 <dcordes_> are you going to get priviledged access to upcoming 'google' hardware?
Jun 30 23:37:14 <jasta> am i?  no, i don't think any community members are.
Jun 30 23:37:48 <dcordes_> I wonder if it will have a keyboard
Jun 30 23:37:56 <dcordes_> will it be cdma or gsm?
Jun 30 23:38:12 <jasta> dcordes_: Lots of speculation, no official word.
Jun 30 23:38:19 <zhobbs> my guess: gsm and keyboard
Jun 30 23:38:31 <zhobbs> but that's just my guess
Jun 30 23:38:32 <dcordes_> 'they' know how to create good gossip advertisement :)
Jun 30 23:38:33 <zhobbs> t-mobile
Jun 30 23:38:36 <jasta> My guess is it will have a keyboard, just simply because Romain said "what soft keyboard?" confusingly.
Jun 30 23:39:14 <dcordes_> is romainguy one of the google's techies?
Jun 30 23:39:55 <jasta> yeah, he's one of the UI guys
Jun 30 23:40:11 <jasta> although he's French, so you can't deduce anything from his behaviour alone :)
Jun 30 23:40:12 <dcordes_> I bet google pays well
Jun 30 23:40:28 <dcordes_> haha wtf
Jun 30 23:40:45 <dcordes_> I'm from germany, can't you deduce things from my behaviour?
Jun 30 23:40:52 <jasta> it was just a joke
Jun 30 23:40:57 <dcordes_> ^^ sorry
Jun 30 23:41:23 <jasta> anyway, the Android project is kind of sucky at the moment :)
Jun 30 23:41:24 <dcordes_> for not getting the joke. I'm german and can't understand us irony
Jun 30 23:41:31 <jasta> at least, it's not very interesting
Jun 30 23:41:50 <zhobbs> dcordes_: in this case it's easy...poke fun at france any chance you get
Jun 30 23:41:53 <zhobbs> :)
Jun 30 23:41:59 <f00f-> french fries ftw
Jun 30 23:42:02 <f00f-> sup hobbs
Jun 30 23:42:04 <f00f-> done traveling?
Jun 30 23:42:08 <zhobbs> hey f00f-
Jun 30 23:42:11 <zhobbs> yeah, back from napa
Jun 30 23:42:28 <f00f-> nice, got lots of wine downed?
Jun 30 23:42:43 <zhobbs> heh, actually ended up hitting some breweries instead
Jun 30 23:42:46 <f00f-> nice
Jun 30 23:42:49 <f00f-> i love breweries
Jun 30 23:42:51 <zhobbs> yeah
Jun 30 23:43:22 <zhobbs> but would have been down to go to some vineyards, just didn't have the time
Jun 30 23:43:34 <dcordes_> I find android interesting because ofthe fast GUI and for having some grip (something they heard about) when I try to tell people about what I am doing with my cellphone
Jun 30 23:43:47 <dcordes_> I don't like it because it is merely pseudo open software
Jun 30 23:43:53 <f00f-> yeah it's a plus dcordes_
Jun 30 23:43:56 <f00f-> people understand it
Jun 30 23:43:59 <jasta> dcordes_: right, but it's not interesting for us because they privatized the SDK.  only the ADC winners have access to updates.
Jun 30 23:44:18 <dcordes_> and especially dislike the fact of making marketing with the term open when it not really is
Jun 30 23:44:27 <jasta> the rest of us haven't seen a new version since early Feb.  and we arent likely to see one soon.
Jun 30 23:45:01 <dcordes_> that's what I mean by pseudo
Jun 30 23:45:14 <dcordes_> and it's a bit cheap doing ads with this..
Jun 30 23:45:44 <jasta> right, but it's not psuedo for the winners ;)
Jun 30 23:45:53 <dcordes_> also many people think google reinvented the wheel with android
Jun 30 23:46:11 <dcordes_> as if it was the first kernel that runs on a cell phone
Jun 30 23:46:23 <jasta> well, they also did some very cool things with this
Jun 30 23:46:26 <dcordes_> that's my opinnion on the whole thing ;)
Jun 30 23:46:31 <jasta> like utilizing and bolstering the OpenBinder
Jun 30 23:48:12 <jasta> dcordes_: i'm sure it'll be interesting again at some point, when it nears reality
Jun 30 23:48:17 <jasta> but it seems very far from that right now
Jun 30 23:48:22 <jasta> and so i sboring again
Jun 30 23:49:15 <f00f-> nah, just a few months :)
Jun 30 23:49:16 <zhobbs> romainguy_: I have an activity with a lot of views...and there is a view that will show up on it every once in a while in the hierarchy, should I just have it in there and show/hide or add it / remove it via code when necessary?
Jun 30 23:50:43 <dcordes_> jasta: I don't think it's far from reality when I can make calls from it and go only very smoothly on my device :D
Jun 30 23:52:02 <dcordes_> and it's even fun to play with the ui and doesn't feel too bad since at least I have the kernel source
Jun 30 23:53:21 <dcordes_> if google would throw the gui sourcode know I'd say it's THE embedded os
Jun 30 23:54:13 <zhobbs> dcordes_: they will
Jun 30 23:54:56 <krosaen> zhobbs: for a single view, setVisibility(View.GONE) and setVisibility(View.VISIBLE) should be fine
Jun 30 23:55:20 <zhobbs> hmm, does a view that's GONE take memory?
Jun 30 23:55:29 <krosaen> yes
Jun 30 23:55:30 <dcordes_> zhobbs: somebody on this channel told me there will remain some binary blobs
Jun 30 23:55:42 <zhobbs> dcordes_: not the ui toolkit
Jun 30 23:55:55 <dcordes_> but?
Jun 30 23:56:11 <zhobbs> morrildl said everything above the kernel will be open if I recall correctly
Jun 30 23:56:21 <jasta> dcordes_: but it is though, because you have almost none of the applications layered onto it ;)
Jun 30 23:56:23 <krosaen> but a single icon that you show in some cases, it probably won't hurt, but if you have a larger more complicated view, you could use removeView and addView
Jun 30 23:56:25 <dcordes_> so since the kernel is open
Jun 30 23:56:46 <jasta> and its not real for us developers because they are withholding all the new features and bug fixes
Jun 30 23:57:03 <dcordes_> did you try the on screen keyboard?
Jun 30 23:57:03 <zhobbs> krosaen: ok
Jun 30 23:57:07 <krosaen> it certainly wouldn't be good to have a substantial layout that is hidden and shown (like a frame layout that switches between a entire screens, in that case, probably better to use sep activities)
Jun 30 23:57:16 <jasta> dcordes_: ?
Jun 30 23:57:19 <zhobbs> krosaen: you an android developer?  I see you're inside google :)
Jun 30 23:57:37 <jasta> probably an intern hehe
Jun 30 23:57:39 <krosaen> yes
Jun 30 23:58:06 <krosaen> romain's my intern
Jun 30 23:58:10 <krosaen> j/k :)
Jun 30 23:58:13 <zhobbs> ok...maybe I can simplify the view
Jun 30 23:58:14 <zhobbs> hehe
Jun 30 23:59:59 <zhobbs> krosaen: what part you work on?
Jul 01 00:00:52 <dcordes_> marketing
Jul 01 00:01:03 <f00f-> anti-marketing
Jul 01 00:01:27 <jasta> f00f-: his dept is doing a great job :)
Jul 01 00:01:41 <f00f-> :D
Jul 01 00:02:21 <krosaen> my official title is, "deputy senior vp of strategic synergy"
Jul 01 00:02:31 <krosaen> :)
Jul 01 00:02:39 <jasta> god i honestly cant tell if he's joking
Jul 01 00:02:40 <krosaen> actually i just work on the view system and other parts of the framework
Jul 01 00:02:45 <zhobbs> cool
Jul 01 00:02:47 <jasta> the type of person who would have a title that ridiculous are likely to tell it to you
Jul 01 00:03:16 <jasta> alright, heading home
Jul 01 00:03:17 <krosaen> heh, seriously
Jul 01 00:03:21 <dcordes_> cya jasta
Jul 01 00:03:37 <dcordes_> and others
Jul 01 00:03:41 <jasta> i have some exciting e-mails from the libsyncml folks that have given me a bunch of work to do :)
Jul 01 00:03:52 <zhobbs> nicew
Jul 01 00:03:54 <zhobbs> nice
Jul 01 00:04:15 <jasta> one of the main guys finally recognized that there is a real problem and started doing significant work to fix my issues, and is expanding the API some for me as well
Jul 01 00:07:49 <zhobbs> things are changing so rapidly in my android project I need to tool to prune unused files in /res/
Jul 01 00:40:32 <yakischloba> jasta: how was it?
Jul 01 00:45:39 <jasta> my trip?
Jul 01 00:45:40 <jasta> awesome
Jul 01 00:45:47 <yakischloba> cool. gorgeous weekend for it.
Jul 01 00:46:17 <jasta> yeah, no kidding
Jul 01 00:46:21 <jasta> ill get some geotagged pictures up soon
Jul 01 00:46:31 <yakischloba> its a little too hot for me right now though. I probably could've wrung a liter out of my shirt after my bike ride home a few minutes ago.
Jul 01 00:47:33 <jasta> it was nice being on the cold water
Jul 01 00:47:37 <yakischloba> yeah
Jul 01 00:47:39 <jasta> you could reach your hand down any time you wanted
Jul 01 00:48:01 <yakischloba> I was on Bainbridge on saturday, its always cooler away from the city.
Jul 01 00:48:46 <yakischloba> i guess its time to stop procrastinating and buy some more pairs of shorts
Jul 01 00:49:07 <wastrel> more shorts yes
Jul 01 00:50:00 <yakischloba> the top of my feet are sunburnt from poolside lounging yesterday. I knew i was forgetting a spot with the sunscreen
Jul 01 01:05:04 <jasta> yakischloba: we're starting to get enough seattle folks that we could have an android meetup and got tossed downtown or something ;)
Jul 01 01:05:49 <yakischloba> jasta: as uninvolved as I am with android, it'd probably be fun.
Jul 01 01:15:55 <zhobbs> anyone know how to edit a ListView's separator?
Jul 01 01:16:24 <zhobbs> or set I should say
Jul 01 01:16:25 <jasta> edit it?
Jul 01 01:17:09 <zhobbs> jasta: how to specify what separator to use
Jul 01 01:17:42 <zhobbs> that's not part of the adapter is it?
Jul 01 01:17:52 <jasta> no, its in the listview interface
Jul 01 01:17:52 <jasta> hang on
Jul 01 01:18:04 <zhobbs> yeah, I've seen it...but can't find it
Jul 01 01:18:19 <jasta> oh wait, or maybe not
Jul 01 01:18:36 <jasta> setDivider
Jul 01 01:18:54 <jasta> but when i used this (in M3), it was buggy and broken like you wouldn't believe.
Jul 01 01:18:58 <zhobbs> hm
Jul 01 01:19:00 <jasta> i should hope its improved, but i dont know
Jul 01 01:19:08 <zhobbs> I was looking for setSeparator
Jul 01 01:19:20 <jasta> right, they call it a divider, but they should call it a separator i think
Jul 01 01:19:22 <zhobbs> cause they call it a separator in the desc of some of the methods
Jul 01 01:19:29 <zhobbs> k, thanks
Jul 01 01:19:31 <jasta> especially since other functions call them separators
Jul 01 01:19:36 <zhobbs> yeah
Jul 01 01:20:09 <krosaen> a divider is an optimization to make it easy to have the same drawable between every item
Jul 01 01:20:24 <krosaen> a separator is a view at a position for which ListAdapter#isEnabled returns false
Jul 01 01:20:40 <krosaen> it won't be selectable
Jul 01 01:20:44 <zhobbs> oh ok
Jul 01 01:21:05 <jasta> krosaen: you should note this distinction in the docs, because i didnt get that either.
Jul 01 01:21:26 <krosaen> yeah, it's not an obvious point, i'll make sure we improve the docs on that
Jul 01 01:22:00 <zhobbs> I guess that makes sense now that I re-read this method's desc: http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/widget/ListView.html#lookForSelectablePosition(int, boolean)
Jul 01 02:18:15 <michaelnovakjr_> howdy
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