**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jul 01 02:59:56 2008
Jul 01 12:44:13 <Dougie187> Good Morning Everyone
Jul 01 12:45:52 <cutmasta> hi Dougie187
Jul 01 12:46:03 <Dougie187> Hows it going?
Jul 01 12:46:16 <cutmasta> good
Jul 01 12:46:22 <Dougie187> nice
Jul 01 12:46:23 <cutmasta> sun is shining :)
Jul 01 12:46:31 <Dougie187> that it is
Jul 01 12:46:33 <Dougie187> but not for long!
Jul 01 12:46:36 <Dougie187> it is hurricane season.
Jul 01 12:46:40 <Dougie187> so it will probably rain soon
Jul 01 12:46:55 <cutmasta> i think here in germany not
Jul 01 12:46:57 <cutmasta> :)
Jul 01 12:47:08 <Dougie187> well you are lucky then.
Jul 01 12:47:08 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 12:47:10 <cutmasta> and hopefully not at all in the us
Jul 01 12:47:28 <cutmasta> you have enough hurricanes and rain for years
Jul 01 12:47:41 <Dougie187> yeah not in all of the us.
Jul 01 12:48:29 <Dougie187> but, there is hurricane boris coming in from the west.
Jul 01 12:49:25 <cutmasta> Dougie187, sounds not good
Jul 01 12:49:37 <cutmasta> Dougie187, i will go to US this month
Jul 01 12:49:42 <Dougie187> cool
Jul 01 12:49:46 <cutmasta> hopefully no hurricanes then
Jul 01 12:49:47 <cutmasta> :)
Jul 01 12:49:47 <Dougie187> where at?
Jul 01 12:49:51 <cutmasta> chicago
Jul 01 12:49:55 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 12:49:58 <cutmasta> :)
Jul 01 12:50:02 <Dougie187> you wont have any there
Jul 01 12:50:07 <cutmasta> ok, dont know
Jul 01 12:50:35 <Dougie187> hurricanes don't go that far inland.
Jul 01 12:51:15 <cutmasta> ahhh
Jul 01 12:51:16 <cutmasta> i see
Jul 01 12:51:24 <cutmasta> shame on my knowledge
Jul 01 12:51:26 <cutmasta> ;)
Jul 01 12:52:19 <Dougie187> heh
Jul 01 12:52:26 <Dougie187> here is a good picture of boris
Jul 01 12:52:27 <Dougie187> http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gtwo_epac.shtml
Jul 01 12:53:20 <cutmasta> looks bad
Jul 01 12:55:07 <cutmasta> so all the best from here
Jul 01 12:55:12 <cutmasta> :)
Jul 01 12:55:42 <Dougie187> heh
Jul 01 12:55:46 <Dougie187> its not gonna hit here.
Jul 01 12:56:06 <Dougie187> i dont even know where those hurricanes go most of the time, but i don't remember hearing anything bad about pacific hurricanes.
Jul 01 12:57:34 <cutmasta> hmm
Jul 01 13:17:47 <anno^da> Does someone know which role the library layers (in the framework) plays in reference to the Power Management. I know what we have the Power Management class in the APIs and the Power Management implementation in the kernel. Whats the role of the libs in this context ?
Jul 01 13:21:12 <michaelnovakjr> anno^da: it deals with power related properties like whether it is awake or not and the screen brightness
Jul 01 13:21:42 <michaelnovakjr> its a high level power management implementation in the sdk
Jul 01 13:23:29 <anno^da> Yeah I know that I can access the power management using the APIs. But there have to be libraries in the library layer that encapsulate the power management implementation in the kernel. Right?
Jul 01 13:25:48 <michaelnovakjr> are you looking for something in particular?
Jul 01 13:27:25 <anno^da> No I'm just looking at the framework at the moment. http://code.google.com/android/what-is-android.html  And tried to explain for myself how the implemenation of Power Management works through the different layers of the framework. (sorry for my bad english :) )
Jul 01 13:28:23 <anno^da> Application -> PM API -> PW Libraries -> PM implementation in the kernel
Jul 01 13:28:42 <michaelnovakjr> my guess is that its either in the runtime or libc library
Jul 01 13:30:07 <anno^da> Yeah ok libc would make the most sense
Jul 01 13:30:30 <michaelnovakjr> yea or the runtime core libraries
Jul 01 13:30:38 <michaelnovakjr> not sure how much of that is going to get released
Jul 01 13:30:46 <michaelnovakjr> as in source code :)
Jul 01 13:30:58 <anno^da> The VM will be
Jul 01 13:31:21 <anno^da> Otherwise the coder of the VM wouldnt have said that at the IO
Jul 01 13:31:56 <michaelnovakjr> yea, but not sure about all the libraries... especially if they contain proprietary code from network providers or manufacturers
Jul 01 13:33:16 <anno^da> yeah
Jul 01 13:33:52 <anno^da> from my point of view most of the telephony, gps and 3G related stuff will be closed
Jul 01 13:34:14 <anno^da> but the whole media implementation (open Core ) will be open
Jul 01 13:34:14 <michaelnovakjr> gps might not be, but certainly 3G related code will be
Jul 01 13:34:52 <anno^da> Yeah GPS could be as well. At the Openmoko project it took one year to find an open implemenation
Jul 01 13:35:14 <michaelnovakjr> i haven't paid much attention at all to android related code recently because i haven't been working with it :)
Jul 01 13:35:32 <anno^da> :)
Jul 01 13:35:34 <michaelnovakjr> tackling a few other projects while waiting for a new sdk
Jul 01 13:35:48 <anno^da> yeah
Jul 01 13:49:58 <Dougie187> hows it going michaelnovakjr?
Jul 01 13:50:32 <Kraln> anyone else get contacted by a reporter from business week?
Jul 01 13:51:05 <Dougie187> no.
Jul 01 13:51:10 <Dougie187> but are you in the top 50?
Jul 01 13:51:39 <Kraln> no
Jul 01 13:53:59 <michaelnovakjr> hey Dougie187
Jul 01 13:56:02 <Dougie187> you find any sweet deals on your laptop yet/
Jul 01 13:56:18 <michaelnovakjr> not yet
Jul 01 13:56:40 <Dougie187> bust.
Jul 01 13:56:52 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jul 01 13:57:10 <michaelnovakjr> i did start the native git for windows project though!
Jul 01 13:57:41 <Dougie187> git?
Jul 01 13:57:44 <michaelnovakjr> in order to use git you had to install the linux like packages
Jul 01 13:57:54 <michaelnovakjr> the scm, git
Jul 01 13:58:17 <michaelnovakjr> http://git.or.cz/
Jul 01 13:58:23 <Dougie187> oh ok
Jul 01 13:58:41 <Dougie187> is git better then svn?
Jul 01 13:58:52 <michaelnovakjr> depends on what you're looking for
Jul 01 13:58:54 <michaelnovakjr> i think it is
Jul 01 13:59:03 <Dougie187> why?
Jul 01 13:59:10 <michaelnovakjr> it uses a distributed model to source control
Jul 01 13:59:17 <michaelnovakjr> everyone has their own repository
Jul 01 13:59:35 <michaelnovakjr> and you can have a remote repository that contains all the contributions for each person
Jul 01 14:00:13 <Dougie187> but the remote repository doesnt contain all of the files?
Jul 01 14:00:42 <michaelnovakjr> it doe
Jul 01 14:00:43 <michaelnovakjr> s
Jul 01 14:00:49 <Dougie187> ok.
Jul 01 14:00:59 <Dougie187> but it just contains all of the contributions as well?
Jul 01 14:01:14 <michaelnovakjr> svn is a central source control system
Jul 01 14:01:17 <Dougie187> i guess from your description i dont see how its different from svn.
Jul 01 14:01:25 <michaelnovakjr> 1 repository and numerous working copies
Jul 01 14:01:29 <Dougie187> yeah but you can do work on your own pull.
Jul 01 14:01:38 <michaelnovakjr> yes git is the same way
Jul 01 14:01:44 <michaelnovakjr> except you can track commits locally
Jul 01 14:01:54 <Dougie187> and remotely?
Jul 01 14:02:01 <michaelnovakjr> make patches and then if you have permission push remotely
Jul 01 14:02:07 <Dougie187> ok.
Jul 01 14:02:10 <michaelnovakjr> push is like a remote commit
Jul 01 14:02:19 <Dougie187> so its like an svn server pushed to a different svn server.
Jul 01 14:02:34 <michaelnovakjr> essentially
Jul 01 14:02:39 <michaelnovakjr> its a great model
Jul 01 14:02:45 <Dougie187> ok, i get it.
Jul 01 14:02:56 <Dougie187> is it more efficient?
Jul 01 14:03:04 <michaelnovakjr> yea, its fast
Jul 01 14:03:12 <michaelnovakjr> they have good docs on git for svn users
Jul 01 14:03:34 <michaelnovakjr> breaks it down and compares the usual daily tasks of git in reference to svn
Jul 01 14:03:57 <Dougie187> thats cool.
Jul 01 14:04:18 <Dougie187> lol is there something like webgit?
Jul 01 14:04:20 <Dougie187> like websvn/
Jul 01 14:04:25 <michaelnovakjr> yep
Jul 01 14:04:31 <michaelnovakjr> comes with git
Jul 01 14:04:50 <Dougie187> is it as cool as websvn?
Jul 01 14:04:52 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 14:05:05 <michaelnovakjr> haha i think so
Jul 01 14:05:09 <michaelnovakjr> there's also trac
Jul 01 14:05:30 <Dougie187> are there examples online somewhere?
Jul 01 14:06:22 <Dougie187> and it works with svn too?
Jul 01 14:06:43 <michaelnovakjr> what do you mean by works with svn?
Jul 01 14:06:50 <Dougie187> git-svn - fast, scalable, distributed revision control system (svn interoperability)
Jul 01 14:06:59 <Dougie187> like you could have a local git server backed up to an svn server?
Jul 01 14:07:02 <michaelnovakjr> i don't use git-svn
Jul 01 14:07:11 <michaelnovakjr> i think git is awesome enough on its own
Jul 01 14:07:14 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 01 14:07:19 <Dougie187> well i already have a remote svn server.
Jul 01 14:07:24 <michaelnovakjr> i have git and svn running on my server
Jul 01 14:07:25 <Dougie187> but i was thinking git would be cool for the local thing.
Jul 01 14:07:46 <Dougie187> do you have to commit it all the time?
Jul 01 14:07:47 <michaelnovakjr> my single trac installation handles svn and git projects
Jul 01 14:08:04 <michaelnovakjr> only if someone needs what i'm working on
Jul 01 14:08:12 <Dougie187> well i mean for your local one?
Jul 01 14:08:30 <Dougie187> to keep the versioning going, do you have to commit to your local git repo all the time?
Jul 01 14:08:35 <michaelnovakjr> yea, i usually commit when i've completed something that works :)
Jul 01 14:08:48 <Dougie187> heh, i want something that commits when i save
Jul 01 14:08:53 <michaelnovakjr> well, when you push it takes your local commits and puts them on the remote
Jul 01 14:09:03 <michaelnovakjr> preserving the author, id, and timestamp
Jul 01 14:09:08 <Dougie187> yeah
Jul 01 14:09:40 <michaelnovakjr> do you use trac?
Jul 01 14:10:17 <Dougie187> nope
Jul 01 14:10:29 <michaelnovakjr> ever checked it out?
Jul 01 14:10:42 <Dougie187> i have svn on my school acct for my homeworks and stuff
Jul 01 14:10:53 <Dougie187> then websvn to look at it online
Jul 01 14:10:53 <michaelnovakjr> trac is like google code
Jul 01 14:11:15 <Dougie187> ive never used google code
Jul 01 14:11:16 <michaelnovakjr> trac has a wiki, ticket management, web source code tool
Jul 01 14:11:28 <michaelnovakjr> roadmap, milestones....
Jul 01 14:11:31 <Dougie187> do you have to pay for google code?
Jul 01 14:11:43 <michaelnovakjr> nope
Jul 01 14:11:49 <michaelnovakjr> nor do you have to pay for trac :)
Jul 01 14:12:00 <Dougie187> yeah but trac is something you have to manage right?
Jul 01 14:12:04 <Dougie187> google code is on their servers.
Jul 01 14:12:07 <michaelnovakjr> trac has slightly more features than google code
Jul 01 14:12:10 <michaelnovakjr> yes
Jul 01 14:12:12 <Dougie187> so its like extra storage.
Jul 01 14:12:21 <michaelnovakjr> but there really isn't much managing
Jul 01 14:12:27 <Dougie187> true, but if you have limited space.
Jul 01 14:12:33 <michaelnovakjr> i have a hot swap for my source code server
Jul 01 14:12:38 <Dougie187> heh, I dont.
Jul 01 14:12:46 <Dougie187> i have like 11 gigs total storage on my school acct
Jul 01 14:12:54 <michaelnovakjr> and after each commit it tars up the repo and sends it over to the back up server
Jul 01 14:12:58 <Dougie187> do they ever deny google code accounts?
Jul 01 14:13:07 <michaelnovakjr> not that i have seen
Jul 01 14:13:20 <michaelnovakjr> its implied that you are an open source project thoug
Jul 01 14:13:26 <michaelnovakjr> and its public
Jul 01 14:13:34 <Dougie187> hmm.
Jul 01 14:13:58 <Dougie187> because i started gpging my homework.tar.gz files because of this lazy ass student who likes to steal homeworks.
Jul 01 14:14:16 <Dougie187> do you know how much storage they give you?
Jul 01 14:14:18 <michaelnovakjr> well, if you ever need any svn or git with trac i have the setup
Jul 01 14:14:22 <michaelnovakjr> i don't charge :)
Jul 01 14:14:39 <Dougie187> heh
Jul 01 14:14:49 <Dougie187> ill have to look at trac.
Jul 01 14:15:05 <Dougie187> i think i actually need to get a new desktop and make it a backup server.
Jul 01 14:15:14 <michaelnovakjr> its hands down the best web based scm tool i have ever used
Jul 01 14:15:34 <Dougie187> what does scm stand for?
Jul 01 14:15:50 <michaelnovakjr> source code management
Jul 01 14:15:52 <Dougie187> ok
Jul 01 14:16:04 <Dougie187> because i have heard other acronyms, never scm though
Jul 01 14:16:07 <Dougie187> mainly cvs.
Jul 01 14:16:44 <michaelnovakjr> cvs is a tool
Jul 01 14:17:03 <Dougie187> yeah but ive heard cvs used as an acronym to describe SVN for example.
Jul 01 14:17:09 <Dougie187> since CVS isnt used much anymore.
Jul 01 14:17:43 <michaelnovakjr> that would be wrong
Jul 01 14:17:53 <michaelnovakjr> svn is based on cvs but its not a type of cvs
Jul 01 14:18:07 <michaelnovakjr> cvs stands for concurrent versioning system
Jul 01 14:18:24 <Dougie187> well ive heard cvs meaning content versioning system.
Jul 01 14:18:41 <Dougie187> so thats just how i think of most of these things.
Jul 01 14:19:06 <michaelnovakjr> hm, i don't think i've heard that one before
Jul 01 14:19:37 <Dougie187> well thats cool.
Jul 01 14:19:41 <Dougie187> ill have to look into git and trac.
Jul 01 14:19:54 <michaelnovakjr> definitely, excellent tools
Jul 01 14:20:05 <Dougie187> hows your ps3 going?
Jul 01 14:20:15 <michaelnovakjr> not bad... haven't played too much
Jul 01 14:20:22 <michaelnovakjr> been playing euro2008 on xbox
Jul 01 14:20:43 <Dougie187> yeah i remember you telling me that.
Jul 01 14:20:57 <Dougie187> then a day later that guy was like "Who wanted to know about the European Cup?"
Jul 01 14:21:15 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 01 14:21:21 <michaelnovakjr> its a cool game on xbox
Jul 01 14:22:09 <Dougie187> thats cool
Jul 01 14:22:13 <Dougie187> i havent played halo much lately.
Jul 01 14:22:25 <Dougie187> i think im going to destroy my own life.
Jul 01 14:22:30 <Dougie187> becuase im going to get back into diablo 2.
Jul 01 14:22:31 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 14:22:53 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 01 14:23:10 <Dougie187> have you heard of time vault?
Jul 01 14:23:24 <michaelnovakjr> i might have
Jul 01 14:23:38 <Dougie187> its like a backup system for linux.
Jul 01 14:23:40 <michaelnovakjr> it sounds familiar but i dont remember anything past that :)
Jul 01 14:23:43 <Dougie187> heh
Jul 01 14:23:51 <Dougie187> basically a linux answer for timecapsule for max.
Jul 01 14:23:54 <Dougie187> mac*
Jul 01 14:23:55 <michaelnovakjr> ah yes...
Jul 01 14:24:00 <michaelnovakjr> do you use it?
Jul 01 14:24:04 <Dougie187> no, i had a friend use it.
Jul 01 14:24:09 <Dougie187> and i thought it would be cool.
Jul 01 14:24:11 <michaelnovakjr> good?
Jul 01 14:24:16 <Dougie187> but i think its still in beta.
Jul 01 14:24:18 <Dougie187> im not sure though.
Jul 01 14:24:21 <Dougie187> it was pretty good.
Jul 01 14:24:32 <Dougie187> he said it wasnt really useful because his backups weren't backed up.
Jul 01 14:24:32 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 14:24:38 <Dougie187> it was just on his laptop.
Jul 01 14:24:39 <michaelnovakjr> yea, i haven't used it.... but then again i've never used time machine either :)
Jul 01 14:24:43 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 01 14:25:08 <Dougie187> do you like mandriva more then OSX?
Jul 01 14:25:12 <michaelnovakjr> for my scm server(s) i created a backing up system tied in with hooks
Jul 01 14:25:15 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jul 01 14:25:46 <michaelnovakjr> after commit the file is sent to the other server where the update is applied
Jul 01 14:26:07 <Dougie187> thats cool
Jul 01 14:26:19 <michaelnovakjr> that way if the one goes under nothing is lost
Jul 01 14:27:12 <Dougie187> thats always good.
Jul 01 14:27:28 <Dougie187> lol i was in this meeting a while ago, with my wife's boss, and their database company.
Jul 01 14:27:43 <Dougie187> and he was like our data is backed up to two remote locations, so if one of them goes down you are still fine.
Jul 01 14:27:52 <Dougie187> and i go yeah, but if both go down, your completely screwed.
Jul 01 14:28:00 <Dougie187> and hes like hahaha..... yeah.....
Jul 01 14:28:01 <Dougie187> :(
Jul 01 14:28:05 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 01 14:28:12 <Dougie187> it was funny.
Jul 01 14:28:20 <michaelnovakjr> my second machine backs up to tape :)
Jul 01 14:28:26 <michaelnovakjr> but not on every commit
Jul 01 14:28:27 <Dougie187> tape is always good.
Jul 01 14:28:33 <michaelnovakjr> so there's a slight hole
Jul 01 14:28:45 <michaelnovakjr> once a day it backs up to tape
Jul 01 14:29:34 <Dougie187> tape is pretty slow isnt it?
Jul 01 14:30:17 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 01 14:30:24 <michaelnovakjr> hence why it does it once a day
Jul 01 14:30:27 <Dougie187> heh
Jul 01 14:30:33 <Dougie187> thats the only bad part about it.
Jul 01 14:30:38 <Dougie187> if you need something right now
Jul 01 14:30:43 <Dougie187> you have to wait a while
Jul 01 14:30:44 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 14:30:50 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jul 01 14:31:16 <michaelnovakjr> my file server is another story
Jul 01 14:31:20 <michaelnovakjr> that has lots of data.
Jul 01 14:31:33 <michaelnovakjr> backups are not as often or as automatic
Jul 01 14:31:52 <Dougie187> yeah
Jul 01 14:32:02 <michaelnovakjr> and its not raided
Jul 01 14:32:14 <michaelnovakjr> its also my domain controller for the network
Jul 01 14:32:22 <michaelnovakjr> (windows 2003 server)
Jul 01 14:32:48 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 14:32:54 <Dougie187> your fileserver is your domain controller?
Jul 01 14:33:01 <michaelnovakjr> yea :)
Jul 01 14:33:08 <michaelnovakjr> it is a multi tasking machine
Jul 01 14:33:08 <Dougie187> isnt that... not a great idea?
Jul 01 14:33:35 <michaelnovakjr> maybe, but it doesn't control that many windows machines and its not mission critical
Jul 01 14:33:51 <Dougie187> ok.
Jul 01 14:34:35 <Dougie187> man. freaking cedega doesnt work at all.
Jul 01 14:35:12 <Dougie187> here is that timevault thing.
Jul 01 14:35:13 <Dougie187> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeVault
Jul 01 14:35:36 <michaelnovakjr> nie
Jul 01 14:35:37 <michaelnovakjr> nice
Jul 01 14:59:32 <michaelnovakjr> trust me when i say subversion has its issues
Jul 01 15:03:56 <Dougie187> heh
Jul 01 15:03:56 <Dougie187> ok
Jul 01 15:04:00 <Dougie187> i dont use it very often.
Jul 01 15:04:03 <Dougie187> just to backup my homework.
Jul 01 15:04:13 <michaelnovakjr> we use it at my office
Jul 01 15:04:21 <michaelnovakjr> i can go weeks without a commit
Jul 01 15:04:44 <michaelnovakjr> just to not flood the repo with non-working versions
Jul 01 15:07:11 <Dougie187> http://youtube.com/watch?v=fdIFy46z4Kk
Jul 01 15:07:12 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 15:08:23 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: that's a pretty bad policy, actually
Jul 01 15:08:29 <michaelnovakjr> i know
Jul 01 15:08:36 <michaelnovakjr> that's what they want
Jul 01 15:08:45 <michaelnovakjr> which is why i said git would be better in that case
Jul 01 15:08:52 <jasta> i commit very atomically :)
Jul 01 15:08:56 <michaelnovakjr> because i can keep my local commits if i need to revert
Jul 01 15:10:20 <michaelnovakjr> Dougie187, that is weird
Jul 01 15:10:29 <Dougie187> yeah. that kid is crazy
Jul 01 15:11:13 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, the more i use git the more i become a fan of it
Jul 01 15:11:20 <michaelnovakjr> it has its clear advantages
Jul 01 15:11:41 <gambler> have u tried the git eclipse plugin
Jul 01 15:11:52 <michaelnovakjr> nope
Jul 01 15:11:58 <michaelnovakjr> i don't use eclipse
Jul 01 15:12:54 <michaelnovakjr> i don't usually go for scm pluginss
Jul 01 15:12:55 <gambler> lucky you
Jul 01 15:13:23 <michaelnovakjr> i like the command line utilities.... they are straight forward
Jul 01 15:16:50 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 15:17:08 <Dougie187> that is ridiculous.
Jul 01 15:17:13 <Dougie187> did you watch that video michaelnovakjr?
Jul 01 15:17:19 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jul 01 15:17:28 <michaelnovakjr> you find some weird shit
Jul 01 15:18:18 <Dougie187> its on msnbc
Jul 01 15:18:29 <cutmasta> Dougie187, lol
Jul 01 15:18:34 <cutmasta> guitar hero is soo cool
Jul 01 15:18:35 <cutmasta> :)
Jul 01 15:19:02 <Dougie187> yeah
Jul 01 15:19:07 <Dougie187> and that kid is insane.
Jul 01 15:19:10 <michaelnovakjr> i have it and never have played it
Jul 01 15:19:14 <Dougie187> i cant even play that song on hard.
Jul 01 15:19:14 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 15:19:17 <Dougie187> i like it.
Jul 01 15:19:31 <Dougie187> i have it for the wii though
Jul 01 16:56:22 <michaelnovakjr> i wanted to kill myself just now
Jul 01 16:56:29 <michaelnovakjr> someone at work quoted phandroid
Jul 01 16:56:34 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 01 16:56:56 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 16:57:08 <michaelnovakjr> it was about the photoshop contest
Jul 01 16:57:23 <michaelnovakjr> he sent me the link and everything !
Jul 01 16:57:27 <Dougie187> hah
Jul 01 16:57:31 <Dougie187> what do you win with the contest?
Jul 01 16:57:40 <michaelnovakjr> another beer!
Jul 01 16:57:52 <michaelnovakjr> haha, sorry... couldn't help it
Jul 01 16:57:57 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 16:57:58 <michaelnovakjr> i don't think you win anything
Jul 01 16:58:13 <Dougie187> $50
Jul 01 16:58:31 <michaelnovakjr> oh yea, it says it right in the title :)
Jul 01 16:58:50 <michaelnovakjr> long day
Jul 01 16:58:57 <michaelnovakjr> and its only half over
Jul 01 17:00:24 <jasta> lol
Jul 01 17:00:45 <jasta> my family sends me things they read about Android, and i wish they'd stop
Jul 01 17:00:50 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 01 17:00:52 <jasta> it's always stuff i already know, or it's stuff i know to be wrong
Jul 01 17:01:12 <michaelnovakjr> and always from fanboy sites
Jul 01 17:01:54 <Dougie187> lol the ones they go to
Jul 01 17:02:03 <morrildl_> you guys have it easy
Jul 01 17:02:20 <morrildl_> my family always sends me the negative articles and asks if they're true ;)
Jul 01 17:03:04 <Dougie187> and you are like "afraid so!"
Jul 01 17:03:05 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 17:03:23 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 01 17:03:25 <michaelnovakjr> na
Jul 01 17:03:42 <michaelnovakjr> my only beef with google is with the new sdk
Jul 01 17:03:57 <michaelnovakjr> other than that its business as usual... can't expect any more than that
Jul 01 17:04:12 <michaelnovakjr> did i just say beef
Jul 01 17:04:18 <michaelnovakjr> i need a nap
Jul 01 17:05:06 <Dougie187> true
Jul 01 17:05:07 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 17:13:03 <jasta> i just wish we could get this moving again :)
Jul 01 17:18:12 <jasta> morrildl_: did you read all that backlog i sent you yesterday?
Jul 01 17:18:33 <morrildl_> jasta: I did read it, yes
Jul 01 17:18:37 <morrildl_> very good points, thanks
Jul 01 17:19:07 <morrildl_> I'm told that the current thinking is closer to ASF than to Ubuntu or Debian
Jul 01 17:19:35 <morrildl_> ...and of course we have lots of ASF expats in the Google open source office, and Google's preferred license is ASL 2.0, so that probably says a lot too :)
Jul 01 17:23:07 <jasta> well, the license and the organization are two different things ;)
Jul 01 17:23:27 <morrildl_> True.
Jul 01 17:24:23 <muthu> hey morrildl_
Jul 01 17:25:06 <jasta> morrildl_: so do i understand this correctly that a big roadblock at present is just figuring out how to manage the project?
Jul 01 17:25:06 <muthu> for adc2 next year, can the adc 1 winners participate with a different app?
Jul 01 17:25:17 <morrildl_> jasta: roadblock for what/
Jul 01 17:25:18 <morrildl_> ?
Jul 01 17:25:39 <michaelnovakjr>  NDA === roadblock
Jul 01 17:25:42 <jasta> morrildl_: for releasing the source and/or next sdk?  you made it seem yesterday that the launch of source and the next SDK were not actually logically related to handset launch
Jul 01 17:25:56 <morrildl_> muthu: rules for ADC2 are not yet written, but I hope that should be the case
Jul 01 17:26:03 <jasta> and i was skeptical, if you recall :)
Jul 01 17:26:09 <muthu> morrildl_: cool, thanks
Jul 01 17:26:20 <morrildl_> jasta: the source release and the SDK release are two separate efforts, with mostly-separate teams
Jul 01 17:26:40 <morrildl_> the source release is more or less gated on handset availability, yes
Jul 01 17:26:48 <morrildl_> the SDK release has other unrelated blockers
Jul 01 17:27:01 <michaelnovakjr> gr
Jul 01 17:27:03 <morrildl_> I am involved in the SDK team, and I lurk on the open-source team
Jul 01 17:27:24 <Dougie187> lol any idea when the sdk is coming out?
Jul 01 17:27:39 <morrildl_> Dougie187: no :(
Jul 01 17:28:01 <michaelnovakjr> it would be nice to know if it will be before devices are available
Jul 01 17:28:19 <jasta> it would be nice to know what "unrelated blockers" means too ;)
Jul 01 17:28:23 <morrildl_> michaelnovakjr: as far as I know, yes
Jul 01 17:28:38 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 01 17:28:45 <michaelnovakjr> hopefully not a week ;)
Jul 01 17:28:57 <morrildl_> michaelnovakjr: the point being that we ideally want the 1.0-final SDK out far enough in advance of 1.0-final devices to be useful
Jul 01 17:29:02 <jasta> that would be the most absurdly stressful week ever ;0
Jul 01 17:29:18 <michaelnovakjr> haha morrildl_ that seems fair enough
Jul 01 17:29:31 <jasta> morrildl_: far enough in advance would mean at least a month for most of us.
Jul 01 17:30:09 <morrildl_> jasta: I do know now what the "unrelated blockers" are, but they are one of those things I can't talk about
Jul 01 17:30:51 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 17:30:55 <morrildl_> hopefully we'll get more than a month
Jul 01 17:30:57 <Dougie187> disappoint.
Jul 01 17:31:20 <michaelnovakjr> morrildl_ that's cool..... but if you see those "unrelated blockers" do me a favor and kick them in the shins :)
Jul 01 17:31:24 <morrildl_> the 1.0 final might not be out, but the current SDKs are relatively stable now
Jul 01 17:31:28 <morrildl_> michaelnovakjr: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Jul 01 17:31:40 <morrildl_> michaelnovakjr: you have. *No.* *Idea.*
Jul 01 17:31:45 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 01 17:31:48 <jasta> morrildl_: by current you mean internally?
Jul 01 17:32:03 <jasta> surely not m5, right?
Jul 01 17:32:04 <morrildl_> jasta: basically yes
Jul 01 17:32:09 <morrildl_> certainly not M5
Jul 01 17:32:14 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, i'd hope he doesn't mean the one from march :)
Jul 01 17:32:23 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: *February*.
Jul 01 17:32:31 <morrildl_> The delta from M5 to current is pretty significant
Jul 01 17:32:31 <michaelnovakjr> ah yes
Jul 01 17:32:47 <jasta> morrildl_: which is what we'd all assumed.
Jul 01 17:32:48 <michaelnovakjr> hence the hault on development :)
Jul 01 17:32:54 <morrildl_> conceptually not that much has changed (meaning we aren't going to change how Activities work out from under you or something), but there are a lot of tweaks
Jul 01 17:33:00 <jasta> yeah, as michaelnovakjr said, we assumed that to be true, and stopped development in response.
Jul 01 17:33:10 <morrildl_> jasta, michaelnovakjr: indeed, perfectly reasonable.
Jul 01 17:33:21 <morrildl_> I would do the same in your shoes
Jul 01 17:33:27 <michaelnovakjr> i figured less headaches later on
Jul 01 17:33:48 <michaelnovakjr> figuring out a solution is never fun with broken code :)
Jul 01 17:34:04 <morrildl_> hehehehe
Jul 01 17:34:11 <jasta> teehee, just looking at a calendar now
Jul 01 17:34:19 <morrildl_> gaaah!
Jul 01 17:34:20 <morrildl_> no!
Jul 01 17:34:21 <jasta> it's been 5 months since the last significant public release
Jul 01 17:34:22 <morrildl_> don't do that!
Jul 01 17:34:25 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 01 17:34:34 * morrildl_ has become afraid of calendars
Jul 01 17:34:34 <morrildl_> ;)
Jul 01 17:34:35 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 17:34:45 <jasta> almost half a year
Jul 01 17:34:46 <Dougie187> id like to see morrildl's calendar
Jul 01 17:34:48 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 01 17:34:53 <michaelnovakjr> i wouldn't :)
Jul 01 17:34:54 <morrildl_> Dougie187: you can have it, if you want it :P
Jul 01 17:35:06 <morrildl_> jasta: yup
Jul 01 17:35:08 <Dougie187> hah
Jul 01 17:35:35 <michaelnovakjr> well jasta when you put it like that.... damn
Jul 01 17:35:39 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 01 17:35:41 <morrildl_> I think back on the conversations we had back in the day when we were planning on bimonthly releases
Jul 01 17:35:47 <morrildl_> ahhhh, youth.
Jul 01 17:35:49 <morrildl_> :P
Jul 01 17:35:50 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 01 17:36:09 <michaelnovakjr> that's a crankin' release schedule
Jul 01 17:36:17 <michaelnovakjr> some real optimistic developers huh?
Jul 01 17:36:25 <morrildl_> well, the SDKs are generated as part of the build
Jul 01 17:36:26 <jasta> yeah, or like how you said you guys would definitely get a bug fix release out a month before the Apr 14th deadline
Jul 01 17:36:38 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 17:36:47 <morrildl_> that's what RC37 was
Jul 01 17:36:49 <Dougie187> i think we can go on and on about things they have said.
Jul 01 17:37:00 <morrildl_> or whatever the most recent one was
Jul 01 17:37:06 <morrildl_> I mean it's WHY we extended the deadline :)
Jul 01 17:37:18 <michaelnovakjr> which was a good thing :)
Jul 01 17:37:22 <morrildl_> hehehe
Jul 01 17:37:33 <michaelnovakjr> i wasn't very proactive
Jul 01 17:37:37 <morrildl_> heh
Jul 01 17:38:02 <michaelnovakjr> well i was, but wrote the whole back end first so the client was starved a bit
Jul 01 17:38:52 <jasta> morrildl_: rc37?  that's m3.  m5 had only 1 significant release, and it was early Feb.
Jul 01 17:39:15 <jasta> there was some trivial security bug fix release after that in Mar or something, but it contained no functional changes.
Jul 01 17:40:29 <morrildl_> hmm
Jul 01 17:40:49 <morrildl_> okay that must be what I was thinking of :)
Jul 01 17:41:13 <muthu> morrildl_: get the devices out fast ;)
Jul 01 17:41:34 <yakischloba> jasta: give em hell ;)
Jul 01 17:42:17 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 01 17:42:30 <Dougie187> and the flood gates are open.
Jul 01 17:42:55 <morrildl_> yeah I guess you're right, rc15 had docs changes
Jul 01 17:43:04 <morrildl_> I thought there were a couple emulator fixes in there too, but I guess I was wrong
Jul 01 17:43:34 <Dougie187> lol trust jasta. he has obsessed over this for a while
Jul 01 17:43:50 <morrildl_> this is why I don't need to remember anything, I have people to keep me honest
Jul 01 17:44:19 <morrildl_> I'm taking the open-source "many eyes" thing and turning it into a distributed memcache ;)
Jul 01 17:44:34 <yakischloba> jasta has the world in check.
Jul 01 17:46:39 <jasta> you people have a funny opinion of me
Jul 01 17:46:57 <Dougie187> ;)
Jul 01 18:20:51 <jasta> mmmm, new last.fm APIs :)
Jul 01 18:21:01 <michaelnovakjr> last.fm is awesome
Jul 01 18:22:57 <jasta> yeah, and their new APIs look to simplify a lot of things i was trying to do
Jul 01 18:24:47 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 01 18:25:05 <michaelnovakjr> last.fm integration was genius
Jul 01 21:09:54 <jasta> mmmm, this is like the most brilliant lyric ever
Jul 01 21:10:06 <michaelnovakjr> ...
Jul 01 21:10:24 <jasta> o/~ That night he found the key / to decode you, Tokyo / Between warm sake / And street lights caught in the falling snow o/~
Jul 01 21:12:31 <jasta> Minus The Bear, naturally. ;)
Jul 01 21:14:38 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 01 21:16:47 <f00f-> yes, quite naturally.
Jul 01 21:20:14 <jasta> man im excited by these new Last.fm APIs
Jul 01 21:20:22 <jasta> they geocode the venues now
Jul 01 21:21:20 <michaelnovakjr> nice!
Jul 01 21:26:50 <jasta> romainguy_: are there long term plans to change the way this notification system works on Android?
Jul 01 21:27:34 <jasta> as in, before handset launch?
Jul 01 21:27:52 <jasta> i think its one of the weaker parts of the Android UX...
Jul 01 21:28:16 <jasta> its very awkward to have to "drag it down", it should just be able to pop up on its own from a press in the status bar
Jul 01 21:28:28 <zhobbs> jasta: you can fling it
Jul 01 21:28:31 <jasta> and it should be a little less generalized
Jul 01 21:28:32 <zhobbs> it's kinda cool
Jul 01 21:28:46 <jasta> so that the information can be specialized, such as posting a generic View to it
Jul 01 21:29:25 <jasta> and it should maybe not even exist when there is only one notification.  for example, if you get a calendar reminder, why not just make pressing the bar go right to the calendar event?
Jul 01 21:30:15 <jasta> zhobbs: even at the keynote you saw Andy struggling with it.  he had to press twice to get it to slid eright.
Jul 01 21:30:23 <jasta> it's an awkward and unintuitive interface
Jul 01 21:32:26 <jasta> even if you change nothing else, it should not be necessary that you "slide" it down.
Jul 01 21:32:31 <jasta> pressing the title bar should open it
Jul 01 21:33:52 <jasta> perhaps it could still "slide out" visually, but without requiring that gesture
Jul 01 21:33:52 <michaelnovakjr> yea, i've tried it and don't really like that
Jul 01 21:34:02 <jasta> ive even tried it on a physical handset
Jul 01 21:34:08 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 01 21:34:09 <jasta> and it felt even more awkward there than on the emulator
Jul 01 21:34:31 <michaelnovakjr> the other thing was deactivated touch screen while call was in progress
Jul 01 21:34:37 <michaelnovakjr> don't like that
Jul 01 21:34:52 <jasta> yeah but that has to be the case
Jul 01 21:35:03 <michaelnovakjr> it should at least be a preference
Jul 01 21:35:04 <jasta> otherwise people will hang up on each other all the time
Jul 01 21:35:21 <jasta> i think the strategy there is to just have physical buttons to end call
Jul 01 21:35:24 <michaelnovakjr> not when your screen turns off
Jul 01 21:35:36 <jasta> well thats true
Jul 01 21:35:56 <jasta> or perhaps they could implement a proximity sensor ;0
Jul 01 21:36:07 <jasta> to determine when the phone is near your head
Jul 01 21:36:13 <jasta> that would be slick as hell hehe
Jul 01 21:39:19 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 01 21:39:23 <michaelnovakjr> i like that idea
Jul 01 21:44:01 <jasta> probably not good for costs :)
Jul 01 21:44:52 <jasta> actually, you could probably do it with a simple light sensor
Jul 01 21:45:09 <jasta> when the surface of the phone becomes very dark while in a call, its probably against their face
Jul 01 21:45:10 <f00f-> well
Jul 01 21:45:15 <f00f-> N95 has a proximity sensor
Jul 01 21:45:20 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 01 21:45:20 <f00f-> to adjust screen backlight
Jul 01 21:45:33 <jasta> f00f-: are you sure that's not an ambient light sensor?  my phone has one of those.
Jul 01 21:45:54 <f00f-> ok maybe it is
Jul 01 21:47:45 <tethridge> the proximity sensor is a big deal for me.
Jul 01 21:47:55 <jasta> ?
Jul 01 21:48:11 <tethridge> if I can't perform the use case that stevo did while on a call, then I'm not getting an android phone
Jul 01 21:48:31 <tethridge> you know, on a call, check for movie times, send email with picture, etc
Jul 01 21:48:54 <tethridge> if I have a touch screen phone, I expect it to be just as fancy as the iPhone.
Jul 01 21:49:01 <tethridge> I'm sure most users will feel the same way
Jul 01 21:49:35 <tethridge> if android is just the software, then it should allow manufacturers to add the sensor if they want
Jul 01 21:49:43 <jasta> tethridge: doesn't the iphone also disable the touch screen while in a call though?
Jul 01 21:49:47 <michaelnovakjr> and mod the os
Jul 01 21:49:53 <michaelnovakjr> not sure
Jul 01 21:50:01 <michaelnovakjr> win mobile doesn't :}
Jul 01 21:50:06 <tethridge> jasta, no
Jul 01 21:50:17 <jasta> oh, it looks like thy have a sensor for this as well
Jul 01 21:50:23 <tethridge> if you pull it away from your face you can continue talking on speaker phone while you surf
Jul 01 21:50:38 <tethridge> check email, etc
Jul 01 21:50:40 <jasta> yup sure enough, it has a proximity sensor
Jul 01 21:50:44 <romainguy_> the iPhone turns off the touch screen with a proximity sensor
Jul 01 21:50:46 <jasta> weird, i just made up that solution :)
Jul 01 21:50:58 <jasta> i had no idea real hardware ever used something like that
Jul 01 21:50:58 <tethridge> I thought you were joking
Jul 01 21:51:10 <romainguy_> jasta: even digital cameras use that now
Jul 01 21:51:44 <jasta> the iphone also seems to have an ambient light sensor
Jul 01 21:52:00 <jasta> i didnt know any of this when i was talking just a minute ago hehe
Jul 01 21:52:27 <romainguy_> you must be a genius then
Jul 01 21:55:10 <jasta> im not usually very good at sensible user experience design, so i just surprised myself by guessing at the design the iphone has ;)
Jul 01 21:55:38 <jasta> romainguy_: do you know if visual voicemail is planned for any android devices?  is there a patent problem here?
Jul 01 21:56:09 <tethridge> I think that there is patent issues, but I've heard of other companies rolling it out already
Jul 01 21:56:26 <jasta> hmm, looks like apple was sued over patent infringement for the feature
Jul 01 21:56:32 <tethridge> I can't remember what company it was, but I remember it being a big one, like sprint or verizon
Jul 01 21:57:33 <jasta> it seems as though you could do it third party though
Jul 01 21:57:50 <jasta> i used to use YouMail, for example, and it seems like using that service you could hack something very nice together
Jul 01 21:57:55 <jasta> or even cooperate with them to natively support it
Jul 01 21:58:26 <romainguy_> jasta: unfortunately I can't answer that kind of question until the answer is public :)
Jul 01 21:58:36 <jasta> that means yes
Jul 01 21:58:41 <yakischloba> duh
Jul 01 21:59:01 <romainguy_> jasta: no, that means I cannot answer the question, no matter what the answer is
Jul 01 21:59:28 <jasta> i'm taking it to mean yes, whether you want to clarify or not ;)
Jul 01 21:59:51 * jasta glances over at his phone with 65 "new" voicemails
Jul 01 21:59:56 <romainguy_> you speculate and guess way too much based on way too little information
Jul 01 22:00:06 <romainguy_> it's a very bad habit that you have :p
Jul 01 22:00:33 <jasta> that's a matter of opinion
Jul 01 22:00:38 <jasta> if i did not, then i would not have adopted Android.
Jul 01 22:00:40 <jasta> nor would anyone have.
Jul 01 22:01:03 <jasta> Sometimes, people refer to this bizarre, unhealthy habit as "faith".
Jul 01 22:01:30 <jasta> And I think you might find a crushing wave of people who don't think it's such a bad habit at all.
Jul 01 22:02:34 <romainguy_> there's a huge difference between having faith in Android and deciding whether Android will have visual voicemail based on the fact that I cannot answer the question
Jul 01 22:03:03 <jasta> romainguy_: right, but you assumed i wasn't joking
Jul 01 22:03:25 <romainguy_> aah... the joke argument :)
Jul 01 22:03:39 <jasta> it isn't an argument, i was joking.  you just didn't know that.
Jul 01 22:04:04 <jasta> that said, there's not such a huge difference between faith and speculating way too much based on way too little information.
Jul 01 22:04:35 <duey> i won adc
Jul 01 22:04:44 <jasta> the danger, of course, is that you can misplace your faith, as I have likely done so.
Jul 01 22:05:19 <tethridge> congrats duey
Jul 01 22:05:23 <jasta> duey: ?
Jul 01 22:05:23 <duey> i was joking
Jul 01 22:05:39 <tethridge> so, care to share something with the group?
Jul 01 22:05:41 * duey runs away
Jul 01 22:05:47 <jasta> that was odd
Jul 01 22:05:48 <tethridge> say an updated sdk?
Jul 01 22:06:02 <duey> needed some stress relief
Jul 01 22:09:38 <tethridge> duey, which project?
Jul 01 22:23:26 * jasta squashes yet another libsyncml bug
Jul 01 22:23:39 <jasta> *tsk tsk*, using g_strndup on binary data ;)
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