**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jul 02 02:59:56 2008 Jul 02 12:17:17 Good Morning Everyone Jul 02 12:17:25 huhu Dougie187 Jul 02 12:17:36 you survived the hurricane Jul 02 12:17:37 great Jul 02 12:17:38 hows it going in germany? Jul 02 12:17:39 ;) Jul 02 12:17:44 lol Jul 02 12:17:49 Dougie187, even hotter than last day Jul 02 12:18:07 thats no good. Jul 02 12:18:27 88.0 °F Jul 02 12:18:49 thats not very hot. Jul 02 12:20:11 sure, 100 is more Jul 02 12:20:19 yup Jul 02 12:20:21 but 88 in shadow Jul 02 12:20:23 is hot Jul 02 12:20:28 thats how hot it is where my brother lives. Jul 02 12:20:29 without any breeze Jul 02 12:20:30 like 110 Jul 02 12:20:37 where does he live? Jul 02 12:20:41 Vegas Jul 02 12:20:46 ok Jul 02 12:21:05 the highest temp i felt was in brazil Jul 02 12:21:07 its probably going to be about 95 here. Jul 02 12:21:08 some years ago Jul 02 12:21:08 lol Jul 02 12:21:11 i could see that Jul 02 12:21:50 :) Jul 02 12:21:58 for those who want one, you can get an N810 for $360 now on buy.com Jul 02 12:22:48 i think thats one that people have run android on. Jul 02 12:23:07 cool Jul 02 12:23:24 360$ is not much euro :) Jul 02 12:24:35 true. Jul 02 13:56:16 look what zdnet is running today Jul 02 13:56:18 http://blogs.zdnet.com/careers/?p=108 Jul 02 13:56:29 is there truth behind that googlers? Jul 02 14:56:20 hello world Jul 02 14:58:06 jola Jul 02 15:02:45 yola Jul 02 15:04:14 what's up Dougie187 Jul 02 15:04:43 not too much Jul 02 15:04:44 you? Jul 02 15:06:38 eh, working with visual studio for the first time in quite a few years Jul 02 15:07:09 heh Jul 02 15:07:14 why not just use eclipse? Jul 02 15:07:25 i hate eclipse Jul 02 15:07:59 but you like visual studio? Jul 02 15:08:13 its not the worst thing in the world Jul 02 15:08:24 i'm just having a pain in the ass linker error Jul 02 15:09:15 an undefined symbol that is defined just a few lines up :) Jul 02 15:09:43 lol. Jul 02 15:10:44 i start my job on monday. Jul 02 15:10:48 the only thing i can think of is that its used in a #define, but declared as an extern unsigned char Jul 02 15:10:50 nice Jul 02 15:11:09 but then i remember ::linker:: which means its been compiled :) Jul 02 15:11:21 lol Jul 02 15:11:40 i take it your using c? Jul 02 15:11:43 yep Jul 02 15:11:57 are you trying to use visual studio's debugger? Jul 02 15:12:24 uhm Jul 02 15:12:34 you talking about VS and C in here? Jul 02 15:12:40 right now yes. Jul 02 15:12:41 i thought android is eclipse/java Jul 02 15:12:57 later we will be discussion various cheeses, and their applications on toast as crackers. Jul 02 15:13:09 android rarely gets discussed in here now-a-days Jul 02 15:13:09 alex2308: if you haven't noticed android has nothing going on right no Jul 02 15:13:11 printf("nm. i dont care"); Jul 02 15:13:27 without a new sdk no one is writing software for android Jul 02 15:13:30 im working on my first android app :) Jul 02 15:13:35 just look out. Jul 02 15:13:41 its going to be out dated in a little while Jul 02 15:13:45 you will have to re-write it. Jul 02 15:13:49 because when the new sdk comes you'll be rewriting it :) Jul 02 15:13:51 i hope not too much Jul 02 15:14:02 significantly out-dated Jul 02 15:14:11 well, we dont actually know how much, but according to what we have read it will be quite a bit. Jul 02 15:14:13 if not all of it. Jul 02 15:14:17 yawn Jul 02 15:14:19 hence why i am working on C code :) Jul 02 15:14:25 they are changing it from java to c++ Jul 02 15:14:27 and then for F90 Jul 02 15:14:31 haha Jul 02 15:14:31 then to* Jul 02 15:14:43 i bet jasta would enjoy that. Jul 02 15:14:43 na, but really... its going to be quite out-dated Jul 02 15:14:46 if they did F90 Jul 02 15:14:52 what's F90? Jul 02 15:14:58 android? Jul 02 15:15:03 huh? Jul 02 15:15:06 or do you mean literally what is f90? Jul 02 15:15:08 i'd do iphone apps, if i'd like apple Jul 02 15:15:15 oh Fortran Jul 02 15:15:17 yeah Jul 02 15:15:19 fortran 90. Jul 02 15:15:20 dude, that was way before my time ;) Jul 02 15:15:23 lol Jul 02 15:15:29 what about F2003? Jul 02 15:15:31 or F77/. Jul 02 15:15:35 dont you know either of those? Jul 02 15:15:40 of course not Jul 02 15:15:42 hah Jul 02 15:15:46 i know F77 Jul 02 15:15:53 and F90, though i know F77 better then F90 Jul 02 15:15:58 stupid modules. Jul 02 15:16:01 C was basically my first language Jul 02 15:16:06 that was mine too. Jul 02 15:16:08 and then Java Jul 02 15:16:09 and then C++ Jul 02 15:16:12 and then F77 Jul 02 15:16:14 and then F90 Jul 02 15:16:15 lol Jul 02 15:16:27 pascal was mine Jul 02 15:16:29 no, wait Jul 02 15:16:30 i learned BASIC first, but that was just a phase ;) Jul 02 15:16:32 qbasic! Jul 02 15:16:41 i didn't bother with basic Jul 02 15:17:12 http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mal6XbN5cEg Jul 02 15:17:14 we took this class on OOP. and we had to read these articles on the languages and their benefits, then we got to the section of doing OOP with F90, and it basically said "Don't Do it, this language is complete garbage" Jul 02 15:17:21 pretty qbasic song Jul 02 15:17:30 Dougie187: why go through fortran after learning C++? Jul 02 15:17:44 because a lot of scientists have legacy code in F77 Jul 02 15:17:48 ah Jul 02 15:17:49 so we have to learn it so we can read it. Jul 02 15:17:51 good point Jul 02 15:18:22 i'm going to kill this linker error if its the last thing i do Jul 02 15:18:27 lol Jul 02 15:18:27 (probably will be) Jul 02 15:20:05 you should... not use visual studio. Jul 02 15:20:30 i got irritated with it when it wasnt compatible with gcc. Jul 02 15:21:50 its a windows project Jul 02 15:21:59 i guess, when i found out that it wasnt compatible with gcc. Jul 02 15:22:00 lol Jul 02 15:22:04 it doesn't use GNU C Jul 02 15:22:08 wlel. Jul 02 15:22:09 well. Jul 02 15:22:11 windows sucks. Jul 02 15:22:13 so ha. Jul 02 15:22:15 yeah, isnt that obvious to you? :) Jul 02 15:22:22 nope. Jul 02 15:22:37 not having GNU C isn't too much of a hurdle Jul 02 15:23:07 it still has standard c ::cough:: ::cough:: Jul 02 15:23:21 actually, it doesn't. Jul 02 15:23:27 it violates the standard heavily Jul 02 15:23:34 hence the coughing Jul 02 15:23:51 lol your coughing to the wrong group of people michaelnovakjr. Jul 02 15:23:53 especially, it is incompatible with C99, implementing functionality that it has but with different semantics Jul 02 15:23:55 haha Jul 02 15:23:56 we can hear right through your cough. Jul 02 15:23:58 and microsoft doesnt intend to ever fix it Jul 02 15:24:08 yea, i love that Jul 02 15:24:22 i have to sign an NDA for my work. Jul 02 15:24:22 lol Jul 02 15:24:31 i was having this conversation just the other day... Jul 02 15:24:34 i have an extern unsigned char that is used in a compiler define and the linker is throwing an unresolved symbol error Jul 02 15:24:52 i think we're entering an age here where folks can imagine a world without Microsoft. Jul 02 15:25:00 haha android got ported to the n810 now easier to install Jul 02 15:25:04 <----- this guy can. Jul 02 15:25:13 <---------- this guy too Jul 02 15:25:21 you can buy an N810 for $360 on buy.com right now. Jul 02 15:25:25 i mean truly, not just for yourself personally. Jul 02 15:25:42 Dougie187: and send it to germany :D Jul 02 15:25:49 people are starting to see how Microsoft's offerings are not as compelling and necessary as they once were Jul 02 15:26:01 the last big hurdle, i think, is Outlook and Exchange. Jul 02 15:26:03 because people have better alternatives now Jul 02 15:26:10 jasta, zimbra!! Jul 02 15:26:11 No it has no gsm hardware so it is not really interesting Jul 02 15:26:14 i wish we would get better thing like one note. Jul 02 15:26:28 not that i need it anymore. Jul 02 15:26:41 but onenote is seriously like the coolest thing they have ever made... Jul 02 15:26:55 i thought internet explorer was? Jul 02 15:26:59 ... Jul 02 15:27:04 i should shoot you. Jul 02 15:27:04 =) Jul 02 15:27:13 you sound like my dad. Jul 02 15:27:20 i saw the opportunity and took it Jul 02 15:27:23 :) Jul 02 15:27:27 i hate IE with a passion Jul 02 15:27:32 hah, i was thinking the other day about technology, and how it changes over the years. Jul 02 15:27:47 and how when i was little i use to think my dad and granddad knew everything about computers. Jul 02 15:27:54 i love the concept of "super standards mode" when its really just the standards they have chosen to ignore Jul 02 15:27:59 and then maybe a month ago my dad was looking for backup software like ghost. and so he went shopping. Jul 02 15:28:21 and he chose the software based on which one had the highest version, and which one had a sticker saying "Best of..." on it. Jul 02 15:28:30 then hes like, you know it has to be good, they have gone through 10 versions! Jul 02 15:29:11 that was when i knew he didnt know anything about computers. Jul 02 15:29:25 and when he had to ask my mom (computer moron) to set the jumpers right on his harddrive. Jul 02 15:29:37 haha Jul 02 15:30:19 brb Jul 02 15:30:19 anyone see this? Jul 02 15:30:20 http://blogs.zdnet.com/careers/?p=108 Jul 02 15:31:08 Yeah but thats nothing new Jul 02 15:31:42 Every big company has thousands and thousands of little, less paid, not very interesting jobs Jul 02 15:32:48 they also mention programmers at the bottom Jul 02 15:34:06 and the lack of carreer developement depends on what goals you have for the future. Jul 02 15:34:19 not necessarily Jul 02 15:34:25 The job is not everything I would say but thats just my point. Jul 02 15:35:44 if its a dead end job it doesn't matter how good you are at it Jul 02 15:37:03 Yeah ok thats an argument. Jul 02 15:40:16 i have returned. Jul 02 15:40:31 so michaelnovakjr did you have a moment when you found out your parents knew nothing about technology? Jul 02 15:40:50 when they bought a compaq Jul 02 15:40:54 hah Jul 02 15:41:12 i like when they try to advise me what laptop to buy Jul 02 15:41:28 and they are like, "you shouldn't spend $1000 on a laptop when you can get one for $400!" Jul 02 15:41:38 but they dont know the difference in the laptops, or what i need with a laptop. Jul 02 15:41:39 I disagree :) Jul 02 15:41:51 lol to what? Jul 02 15:41:58 or with what i should say. Jul 02 15:42:00 the article probable Jul 02 15:42:02 $1000 to $400 Jul 02 15:42:03 y Jul 02 15:42:05 ah Jul 02 15:42:10 oh yeah, i disagree with that too. Jul 02 15:42:13 in my experience, expensive laptops are much better :) Jul 02 15:42:15 i'd say spend a thousand Jul 02 15:42:30 I'd rather buy an expensive laptop every three years than change a cheap one every year :p Jul 02 15:42:44 the $400 laptop has little to no L2 cache, the processor is probably a single core 2 ghz. hdd is probably 4200rpm with like 60 gigs. Jul 02 15:43:02 it depends on your use though. Jul 02 15:43:04 i killed the damn error!!!!! Jul 02 15:43:14 if you just browse the web all the time, it doesnt matter about any of that stuff. Jul 02 15:43:32 romainguy: i buy in the $1000 ballpark and replace it every 2 years. Jul 02 15:43:36 apparently with the VS C compiler you have to declare a variable locally before using extern on it Jul 02 15:43:45 and it has served me great Jul 02 15:43:50 thats because VS blows michaelnovakjr. Jul 02 15:43:54 :) Jul 02 15:44:04 this laptop cost me $1400 3 years ago. Jul 02 15:44:07 and its been working great so far. Jul 02 15:44:34 im looking more for a nice portable performance laptop now. Jul 02 15:44:40 because i program a lot more then i use to. Jul 02 15:44:55 i use to just play games and take notes with my laptop, which is why i got a tablet. Jul 02 15:44:57 me too Jul 02 15:45:07 granted, right now all im doing is playing games. Jul 02 15:45:11 but come the end of august. Jul 02 15:45:12 i like the 13" xps Jul 02 15:45:16 i typically don't go for portability Jul 02 15:45:19 yeah its pretty sweet Jul 02 15:45:20 i prefer large screen size Jul 02 15:45:25 im going more for performance then portablilty. Jul 02 15:45:27 i priced it at $1400 Jul 02 15:45:36 but im gonna get a 14.1" thinkpad r61 Jul 02 15:45:44 dells seem to get really flimsy as they age Jul 02 15:45:47 Dougie187: how much are those going for? Jul 02 15:45:49 *yawn* Jul 02 15:45:56 the thinkpad would be my choice Jul 02 15:46:01 i think i priced my ideal one at about 800-900 Jul 02 15:46:07 very strudy Jul 02 15:46:08 thats with discrete graphics too Jul 02 15:46:15 sturdy Jul 02 15:46:29 I'm getting tired of working on a laptop all day :( Jul 02 15:46:39 for a thinkpad or an ideapad? Jul 02 15:46:44 for a thinkpad. Jul 02 15:46:52 ideapads are like 1500 - 1800 Jul 02 15:46:52 that is a good price...? Jul 02 15:46:59 something ridiculous. Jul 02 15:47:00 you can get it preinstalled with linux and save a few bucks Jul 02 15:47:05 any thinkpad i priced is way over 900 Jul 02 15:47:07 not with a discrete graphics card. Jul 02 15:47:32 afaik you can't get a thinkpad with linux and discrete graphics. Jul 02 15:47:38 it might be cheaper come the 6th. Jul 02 15:47:39 michaelnovakjr: we buy thinkpads for work and we usually get them around $1000 excluding office and some other business accessories we buy Jul 02 15:48:02 interesting Jul 02 15:48:09 i still have a t30 thats kicking Jul 02 15:48:10 I bought my wife a thinkpad about 3 years ago and it's still going strong Jul 02 15:48:16 it's a t42 Jul 02 15:48:22 i might spend a bit more on it though. Jul 02 15:48:25 a bit newer Jul 02 15:48:27 for the extra cache. Jul 02 15:48:33 mine is a pentium m 2.0 Jul 02 15:48:36 especially if they have coupons and more cash back out by that point. Jul 02 15:48:39 with 1 gig of ram Jul 02 15:49:25 I also have a friend whos parents work with IBM Jul 02 15:49:29 so i can use their EPP Jul 02 15:49:43 my mom works for IBM Jul 02 15:49:53 nice. Jul 02 15:49:58 i got my lenovo 3000 n2 for $600, and i love it. Jul 02 15:50:02 heh Jul 02 15:50:10 that was almost 2 years ago Jul 02 15:50:19 so its about time for a new laptop Jul 02 15:50:31 maybe. i'm thinking about buying a new laptop and keeping both of them Jul 02 15:50:34 just for different purposes Jul 02 15:50:45 yeah Jul 02 15:50:46 i travel more for work than i used to, and it'd be nice to have a laptop i could use on the plane Jul 02 15:50:52 so i'd need an ultraportable Jul 02 15:50:57 x300 here you come. Jul 02 15:51:00 but when i work anywhere else i greatly prefer the large screen Jul 02 15:51:12 or MBA Jul 02 15:51:54 i have a friend who has a MBA Jul 02 15:52:00 i dont like them much though. Jul 02 15:52:14 he said the remote cd thing is a pain in the ass Jul 02 15:52:18 but he almost never has to use it. Jul 02 15:53:37 Dougie187: you price thinkpads through ibm? Jul 02 15:53:44 lenovo Jul 02 15:53:55 but you can use ibm EPP if you have login stuff. Jul 02 16:18:41 i've always wondered why 64-bit on windows sucked..... Jul 02 16:18:51 maybe following the standards would make that better Jul 02 17:20:40 good afternoon morrildl Jul 02 17:21:11 i feel like my co-workers are judging me when I listen to Israel Kamakawiwo'ole - Somewhere Over The Rainbow Jul 02 17:24:25 jasta: well why not, I just judged you right now Jul 02 17:25:07 jasta: I judged you "eclectic" :) Jul 02 17:25:47 morrildl: holy crap Jul 02 17:25:49 lolcode? Jul 02 17:26:04 dcordes: YES. IS IT NOT AWESOME? Jul 02 17:26:38 yes Jul 02 17:26:49 I could start learning to code in LOL Jul 02 17:27:32 hey morrildl Jul 02 17:27:39 if we agree to port it do we get SDK access? Jul 02 17:27:40 lol Jul 02 17:27:48 Dougie187: heh Jul 02 17:28:07 I'm not sure Andy Rubin would sign that particular SDK license if I put it in front of him :P Jul 02 17:28:29 its worth a try though Jul 02 17:29:35 morrildl: I actually wrote a lolcode to Java bytecode compiler :) Jul 02 17:29:45 "What's this one for?" "Making the LOLCODE port of Brainfuck run on Android." "They made LOLCODE?" Jul 02 17:29:57 romainguy_: somehow that doesn't surprise me ;) Jul 02 17:30:06 Dougie187: reverse all the blobs and make it LOL on your own Jul 02 17:30:25 morrildl: I was very bored that day Jul 02 17:30:46 romainguy_: clearly you need to update it to generate Dalvik bytecode Jul 02 17:33:17 the output can be converted to audio for more fun :) Jul 02 17:34:16 may be even the LOL coding Jul 02 17:36:12 morrildl: is the dalvik bytecode expected to be very stable across releases, or is it still evolving? Jul 02 17:38:55 jasta: yeah, Dalvik isn't changing much at this point Jul 02 17:39:03 mostly bug fixes and additional performance tuning Jul 02 17:39:15 I think the bytecode format hasn't changed in months now Jul 02 17:39:38 to whatever extent that Dalvik bytecode needs to evolve, it will do so in a structured way according to releases Jul 02 17:39:39 that's good, i think you're gonna find a lot of folks implementing other languages, targeting the dalvik bytecode. Jul 02 17:39:48 so that access to the UI framework is natively available Jul 02 17:39:51 jasta: yes, please! Jul 02 17:40:05 i saw a post some time ago from Miguel about porting Mono even. Jul 02 17:40:54 yeah, porting from existing mobile applications to dalvik would be happening Jul 02 17:41:48 jasta: what if we have a programming language for mobile? Jul 02 17:41:53 wouldn't it be cool? Jul 02 17:42:23 muthu: you mean a programming language particular to mobile phones? that doesn't seem necessary, although it seems to be what davidw is working on with Hecl Jul 02 17:43:34 jasta: right, a common language for all mobiles Jul 02 17:44:19 may be its android :)) Jul 02 17:47:11 android isn't a language. Jul 02 17:47:47 ok, android the platform and java the language Jul 02 17:48:20 still, i doubt android would become so common. the mobile industry is unlikely to unify at any point in the near future. Jul 02 17:48:32 yeah, that's frustrating Jul 02 17:48:32 the PC and server markets are much older, and still are not well unified. Jul 02 17:49:06 mobile phones moving toward Java development as a common paradigm would be nice, though. Jul 02 17:49:42 some common development platform Jul 02 17:50:47 I've always dreamed of a world with common platform/standard for EVERYTHING...but in reality that might slow inovation Jul 02 17:51:11 zhobbs_: not necessarily Jul 02 17:51:34 firewire makes usb faster, etc Jul 02 17:52:03 OS X makes windows better Jul 02 17:53:14 and now android will make iphone/symbian better Jul 02 17:53:16 may be one common development platform.. but different vendor adapters Jul 02 17:53:29 zhobbs_: haha.. yeah iphone has gps now! Jul 02 17:53:31 muthu: that makes it not a common platform. Jul 02 17:53:57 jasta: may be you should create one :) Jul 02 17:54:09 muthu: yeah, gps, 3g and an sdk Jul 02 17:54:24 wonder if the sdk would have happened as fast if android never came out Jul 02 17:54:52 i believe its all the android effect.. Jul 02 17:55:02 symbian foundation for example Jul 02 17:55:44 the 2 linux phone orgs merged too Jul 02 17:56:40 android has done a smart thing.. by not doing a gphone Jul 02 17:57:09 may be everyone will adopt it Jul 02 17:57:23 I agree...one of those android guys had an editorial saying the opposite...I think he's way off Jul 02 17:58:01 hope android can force the others (oem's and carriers) to change their game Jul 02 17:59:45 i'm waiting for the android for iphone hack ;) Jul 02 18:00:44 it's funny, everytime I see a GUI anywhere (PoS, cable box) I think, man I would write that using android Jul 02 18:01:03 I just like the UI toolkit a lot in android...normally UI sucks Jul 02 18:03:38 yeah android programming is plain easy Jul 02 18:03:45 kudos to the dev team Jul 02 18:05:52 yep Jul 02 18:46:32 anyone think we're going to see a mobile mini-bubble here soon? with some mobile startups getting rich because of smarter phones? I could see it happening... Jul 02 18:47:01 yeah, mobile 2.0 coming soon Jul 02 18:47:11 shit, are we at mobile 1.0 yet? Jul 02 18:47:16 hehe Jul 02 18:47:30 saw mobile 3.0 preview just now ;) Jul 02 18:47:54 you can probably get rich by coining the term mobile 2.0 and running with it Jul 02 18:49:52 Hello world.. Mobile 2.0 is here to stay! Jul 02 18:51:59 muthu, this is going to be a big bubble Jul 02 18:52:14 investors flooding the industry and then leaving startups high and dry Jul 02 18:52:19 happens all the time Jul 02 18:52:36 its the web 2.0 carrying over to mobile Jul 02 18:52:56 which is not really good for some Jul 02 18:53:22 you can't build a company around one single mobile application Jul 02 18:53:51 you can Jul 02 18:53:59 many such companies exist Jul 02 18:54:03 loopt Jul 02 18:54:04 twitter? Jul 02 18:54:06 what happens if me, mr nobody, comes along and writes a competing app and give it away for free Jul 02 18:54:15 then I'll go with you Jul 02 18:54:21 but not everyone will Jul 02 18:54:30 michaelnovakjr: you can give it away for free and build a product company Jul 02 18:54:43 competition will always come Jul 02 18:54:45 the better one wins Jul 02 18:54:46 the same people that do things like pay 30 extra dollars a month for the novelty of low-res televesion on their phones Jul 02 18:54:47 if enough people use it you win (esp with social apps, because they just require a large audience) Jul 02 18:54:50 zhobbs: yes, with more than one product Jul 02 18:55:24 if you have the killer social cell phone app and it really caught on you win...but that'll be 1 in a 1E6 Jul 02 18:56:44 you are implying social apps won't ever get old Jul 02 18:56:48 if you can survive with one product on the web, why not on mobile? Jul 02 18:56:58 ? Jul 02 18:57:06 different platforms Jul 02 18:57:13 windows vs win mobile? Jul 02 18:57:23 oh yeah, you need it all mobiles Jul 02 18:57:27 that's what everyone does Jul 02 18:57:47 michaelnovakjr: by the time it gets old you'll read about it struggling in the paper...from the Caribbean Jul 02 18:57:55 lol Jul 02 18:59:06 I don't know how that facebook kid turned down $12 B...it was probably smart, but that's enough for me to call it a day Jul 02 18:59:41 you aren't going to be seeing those offers forever Jul 02 18:59:43