**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jul 03 02:59:57 2008
Jul 03 03:54:32 <muthu> good morning
Jul 03 09:36:23 <alex2308> question: when i try reading People.NAME, i always get "name"
Jul 03 09:36:43 <alex2308> guess in real devices i would get contact list names?
Jul 03 09:40:44 <romainguy__> you mean that People.NAME == "name" ?
Jul 03 09:41:41 <alex2308> yes
Jul 03 09:41:49 <romainguy__> er yes that's normal
Jul 03 09:41:59 <romainguy__> it's just the name of the column in the database
Jul 03 09:42:18 <alex2308> because i have some contacts in my emulator
Jul 03 09:42:46 <romainguy__> again, People.NAME is the name of the column in the database
Jul 03 09:42:51 <alex2308> i just dont get it, how do i get the contact list names
Jul 03 09:43:05 <romainguy__> you need to make a query to the content provider
Jul 03 09:43:54 <alex2308> i get a cursor first (Cursor c = getContentResolver().query(People.CONTENT_URI, null, null, null, null);) right?
Jul 03 09:45:34 <romainguy__> yes
Jul 03 09:47:56 <alex2308> its a bit like a sql query and the cursor is lke the resultset, right?
Jul 03 09:48:18 <romainguy> that's correct
Jul 03 09:49:12 <alex2308> so i tried this http://rafb.net/p/fmBRdl57.html
Jul 03 09:49:23 <alex2308> reading the results (as string), but all i get is "null"
Jul 03 09:49:44 <romainguy__> because i is not what you think
Jul 03 09:50:06 <romainguy__> you first need to do this:
Jul 03 09:50:14 <alex2308> i thought i made a query to the contact list, and now i could parse through the results
Jul 03 09:50:18 <romainguy__> int nameIndex = c.getColumnIndex(People.NAME);
Jul 03 09:50:25 <romainguy__> whiel (c.next()) {
Jul 03 09:50:36 <romainguy__>    ... c.getString(nameIndex)
Jul 03 09:50:37 <romainguy__> }
Jul 03 09:50:53 <romainguy__> the index in getString() is the index of the column in the current row
Jul 03 09:50:58 <romainguy__> not the index of the row
Jul 03 09:51:35 <alex2308> oh, i see
Jul 03 09:51:46 <alex2308> thank you a lot
Jul 03 09:51:52 <alex2308> i feel pretty stupid now
Jul 03 09:52:05 <romainguy__> no pb :)
Jul 03 09:54:22 <alex2308> works -> http://rafb.net/p/RQ3yoo47.html (just in case someone else needs this)
Jul 03 12:50:26 <alex2308> another noob question: how do i start an activity from inside another activity
Jul 03 13:26:08 <michaelnovakjr> startSubActivity
Jul 03 13:26:19 <michaelnovakjr> its an activity method
Jul 03 13:26:58 <trj> Hi, I'm new to android. I see that there's a screenshot() API call to grab the screen. Is it possible to grab the "root window" and get a screenshot of everything, or can I only screenshot the widgets in my own application?
Jul 03 13:27:01 <trj> http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/view/Surface.html#screenshot()
Jul 03 13:28:04 <michaelnovakjr> its of the screen
Jul 03 13:28:17 <michaelnovakjr> whatever is visible
Jul 03 13:29:09 <TSchultz55> hey all....anyone know how the current Android emulator connects to peripherals (ex: webcams) ?
Jul 03 13:29:20 <michaelnovakjr> it doesn't
Jul 03 13:29:21 <TSchultz55> I see USB is currently not supported
Jul 03 13:29:32 <trj> michaelnovakjr: So, is there an android.view.Surface object which I can grab that represents the root window?
Jul 03 13:29:48 <michaelnovakjr> what do you mean by root window?
Jul 03 13:30:08 <TSchultz55> michaelnovakjr: did you see the Enkin demo?  They somehome hooked up a webcam and GPS to the emulator.
Jul 03 13:30:13 <alex2308> michaelnovakjr: but how do i create the intent? all i have is activities i'd like to start
Jul 03 13:30:20 <michaelnovakjr> i believe they wrote some code to do that
Jul 03 13:30:28 <TSchultz55> ah
Jul 03 13:30:29 <trj> michaelnovakjr: I assumed that a Surface is like a canvas I can draw in. If I create a Surface object, is that not what I get?
Jul 03 13:30:46 <TSchultz55> they need to share the wealth :)
Jul 03 13:31:02 <michaelnovakjr> http://code.google.com/p/android ... TSchultz55 that is what the screenshot call does
Jul 03 13:31:11 <michaelnovakjr> ah shit http://code.google.com/p/five
Jul 03 13:31:17 <michaelnovakjr> ^^ that link
Jul 03 13:31:53 <trj> michaelnovakjr: thanks.
Jul 03 13:31:56 <michaelnovakjr> alex2308: http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/app/Activity.html#startSubActivity(android.content.Intent,%20int)
Jul 03 13:32:06 <michaelnovakjr> that is the method you can start another activity with
Jul 03 13:32:15 <michaelnovakjr> note though however this is not threaded
Jul 03 13:32:47 <alex2308> i think i get itstart --> SubActivity(new Intent(this, someactivity.class), 0);
Jul 03 13:32:52 <alex2308> thank you
Jul 03 13:32:59 <michaelnovakjr> no problem
Jul 03 13:33:31 <michaelnovakjr> TSchultz55: soon enough devices will be out that can capture that stuff
Jul 03 13:33:40 <michaelnovakjr> the sdk is too infant for stuff to be set in stone
Jul 03 13:33:52 <michaelnovakjr> i'm taking a break from android because of this
Jul 03 13:34:03 <TSchultz55> USB support you mean?
Jul 03 13:34:31 <alex2308> only 3 months until first devices should be shipped
Jul 03 13:34:38 <alex2308> new SDK will be released soon i guess
Jul 03 13:34:56 <michaelnovakjr> i don't know about three months
Jul 03 13:35:03 <michaelnovakjr> but by the end of the year yes
Jul 03 13:35:17 <michaelnovakjr> TSchultz55: its hard to say... they haven't mentioned anything about it as far as i know
Jul 03 13:35:35 <TSchultz55> michaelnovakjr: yeah USB or bluetooth support would be HUGE
Jul 03 13:35:36 <alex2308> rumors say 10/2008
Jul 03 13:35:49 <michaelnovakjr> alex2308: key word is rumors
Jul 03 13:36:01 <michaelnovakjr> google has said nothing about android being ready in 10/2008
Jul 03 13:36:27 <michaelnovakjr> and frankly i find that very hard to do... we haven't gotten a clean sdk update since February.
Jul 03 13:36:42 <michaelnovakjr> i'd just stick with end of the year :)
Jul 03 13:36:51 <TSchultz55> any hints on when the next update will be coming
Jul 03 13:36:59 <michaelnovakjr> nope
Jul 03 13:37:08 <michaelnovakjr> doesn't seem like they even know
Jul 03 13:37:18 <TSchultz55> hmmm
Jul 03 13:37:19 <TSchultz55> that
Jul 03 13:37:22 <TSchultz55> that's a shame
Jul 03 13:37:41 <michaelnovakjr> its a big project with lots of hands in the pot
Jul 03 13:37:49 <michaelnovakjr> it was bound to happen
Jul 03 13:37:52 <TSchultz55> the whole reason I'm holding out for Android instead of an iPhone is because of the SDK
Jul 03 13:37:57 <michaelnovakjr> once its released it'll be all good
Jul 03 13:38:26 <TSchultz55> i'm currently holding on to a half broken Razr that took an accidental swim in a glass of scotch recently
Jul 03 13:38:26 <michaelnovakjr> TSchultz55: the iPhone is too restrictive
Jul 03 13:38:43 <michaelnovakjr> i have a developer beta account and its just plain stupid
Jul 03 13:38:45 <TSchultz55> i need a new mobile really badly
Jul 03 13:38:55 <michaelnovakjr> buy an htc mogul
Jul 03 13:39:03 <michaelnovakjr> then install android on it when its released
Jul 03 13:39:18 <TSchultz55> hmmmm interesting
Jul 03 13:39:28 <michaelnovakjr> i have one, and i'll be doing the same
Jul 03 13:40:29 <TSchultz55> yeah I got in a pretty heated argument with an Apple rep about Android vs. iPhone and how their SDK was more of an "after thought"
Jul 03 13:40:37 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jul 03 13:40:42 <michaelnovakjr> i could see that being the case
Jul 03 13:40:46 <michaelnovakjr> brbr
Jul 03 13:57:22 <Dougie187> Good Morning
Jul 03 13:58:14 <alex2308> i was going for the htc touch diamond, but the mogul is much cheaper as i see
Jul 03 14:06:26 <michaelnovakjr> i like the mogul
Jul 03 14:06:43 <Dougie188> from htc?
Jul 03 14:07:00 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jul 03 14:07:23 <michaelnovakjr> i am using my treo right now, but i'll install android on the mogul when it comes out
Jul 03 14:07:31 <Dougie188> cool
Jul 03 14:11:27 <TSchultz55> is there a list of currently "android-ready" phones?
Jul 03 14:11:37 <michaelnovakjr> no
Jul 03 14:12:07 <TSchultz55> i gotta get rid of this phone
Jul 03 14:12:10 <Dougie188> noone knows what android will be able to run on.
Jul 03 14:12:11 <Dougie188> lol
Jul 03 14:12:21 <Dougie188> though its supposed to run on just about anything.
Jul 03 14:12:26 <michaelnovakjr> itll run on mine :)
Jul 03 14:12:36 <TSchultz55> my current phone has been Johnny Walker-logged
Jul 03 14:13:34 <Dougie188> lol
Jul 03 14:13:54 <TSchultz55> it had an unfortunate run-in with a glass of scotch :)
Jul 03 14:14:00 <Dougie188> thats no good.
Jul 03 14:14:09 <Dougie188> especially for a cell phone.
Jul 03 14:14:25 <TSchultz55> heh nope
Jul 03 14:17:37 <michaelnovakjr> muthu is here shhhshhhh
Jul 03 14:17:51 <muthu> whats up?
Jul 03 14:18:00 <muthu> michaelnovakjr: any news?
Jul 03 14:18:02 <michaelnovakjr> nothing
Jul 03 14:18:18 <michaelnovakjr> just being a ballbuster
Jul 03 14:18:24 <Dougie188> as always.
Jul 03 14:18:25 <Dougie188> lol
Jul 03 14:18:58 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 03 14:19:06 <muthu> j2me vs android
Jul 03 14:19:10 <muthu> any opinions?
Jul 03 14:19:22 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Jul 03 14:19:25 <michaelnovakjr> android
Jul 03 14:19:45 <michaelnovakjr> the entire j2me code base should be deprecated
Jul 03 14:27:48 <alex2308> actually i would code iphone apps
Jul 03 14:28:03 <michaelnovakjr> not really
Jul 03 14:28:10 <alex2308> if 1) it wouldnt be apple 2) it would be java 3) it would be open
Jul 03 14:28:25 <michaelnovakjr> actually their api is amazingly awesome
Jul 03 14:28:36 <alex2308> awesome in what way?
Jul 03 14:28:38 <michaelnovakjr> its just that they'll reject your application idea
Jul 03 14:28:43 <michaelnovakjr> dude its objective-c and C
Jul 03 14:28:58 <michaelnovakjr> i wrote full socket networking code in C for the phone
Jul 03 14:29:03 <michaelnovakjr> that is sweet
Jul 03 14:29:14 <michaelnovakjr> its just they have the damn thing so locked tight
Jul 03 14:29:25 <alex2308> i prefer java just to NOT code http clients from scratch
Jul 03 14:29:48 <michaelnovakjr> who said anything about HTTP
Jul 03 14:29:58 <michaelnovakjr> i was writing TCP client connecting to ssh
Jul 03 14:30:11 <michaelnovakjr> ** i loath java by the way **
Jul 03 14:30:46 <alex2308> i dont know, but i think C is very low level
Jul 03 14:30:56 <michaelnovakjr> it is
Jul 03 14:31:01 <michaelnovakjr> and its amazingly fast
Jul 03 14:31:15 <michaelnovakjr> anything you write in java i can write to run in C much faster
Jul 03 14:31:29 <alex2308> im pretty sure you can
Jul 03 14:31:38 <michaelnovakjr> that's why i like it
Jul 03 14:31:40 <alex2308> but can you write it faster? ;)
Jul 03 14:31:48 <michaelnovakjr> probably could
Jul 03 14:32:12 <michaelnovakjr> java is not too bad, but it wouldn't certainly be no where near my top pick
Jul 03 14:32:39 <alex2308> its a bit like saying "anything you write in C i can write to run in ASM faster"
Jul 03 14:32:59 <Dougie188> javas pretty good in running comparison if you compile to machine code instead of bytecode
Jul 03 14:33:26 <michaelnovakjr> its just a memory hog
Jul 03 14:33:38 <michaelnovakjr> creating objects for every little thing
Jul 03 14:33:39 <alex2308> from what i read java is faster than c/c++ once the VM is running
Jul 03 14:33:57 <michaelnovakjr> where did you read that ??
Jul 03 14:34:09 <alex2308> benchmarks i googled
Jul 03 14:34:27 <Dougie188> ive just read that is gets close to the preformance.
Jul 03 14:34:32 <muthu> if you are doing application programming you are better off with java than c
Jul 03 14:34:40 <michaelnovakjr> why muthu?
Jul 03 14:34:49 <muthu> its faster and easier
Jul 03 14:35:01 <michaelnovakjr> i am sure 90% of the software you are using right now is written in C
Jul 03 14:35:13 <alex2308> app developing is easier/faster
Jul 03 14:35:23 <muthu> michaelnovakjr: that's the point
Jul 03 14:35:29 <michaelnovakjr> ?
Jul 03 14:35:34 <alex2308> michaelnovakjr: C++ mostly, a lot C and some C#
Jul 03 14:35:50 <Dougie188> i prefer c and c++ to java any day.
Jul 03 14:35:54 <michaelnovakjr> thank you!
Jul 03 14:36:02 <michaelnovakjr> java is easier is a lame excuse
Jul 03 14:36:04 <Dougie188> and saying its easier is just a matter of opinion.
Jul 03 14:36:24 <Dougie188> and faster is relative.
Jul 03 14:36:28 <Dougie188> for java you need the vm to be running
Jul 03 14:36:37 <michaelnovakjr> its java developers that live in their own world that we have to thank for terrible code!
Jul 03 14:36:48 <Dougie188> also there are a lot of things that java has as features that slow it down.
Jul 03 14:36:54 <michaelnovakjr> thinking too high level can bring lots of problems
Jul 03 14:37:18 <Dougie188> granted, i think java is probably a good choice for a first language to learn. but i dont think its a good choice for actual production.
Jul 03 14:37:23 <michaelnovakjr> People person = new People(me);
Jul 03 14:37:29 <michaelnovakjr> that's real hard :)
Jul 03 14:37:33 <Dougie188> heh
Jul 03 14:37:36 <michaelnovakjr> Dougie188: no!
Jul 03 14:37:38 <Dougie188> but you can do that in c++ too
Jul 03 14:37:42 <michaelnovakjr> java is a terrible first language
Jul 03 14:37:50 <Dougie188> eh, i dont think its too difficult.
Jul 03 14:37:58 <Dougie188> it lets you focus on how to program more.
Jul 03 14:38:01 <michaelnovakjr> its not, but it doesn't help you
Jul 03 14:38:07 <Dougie188> it handles garbage collection for you.
Jul 03 14:38:11 <Dougie188> and a lot of other things.
Jul 03 14:38:23 <Dougie188> then once you get into the mindset of coding more, you can start doing c or c++
Jul 03 14:38:29 <alex2308> i think C is a decent first language
Jul 03 14:38:30 <michaelnovakjr> i learned C first, and C data structures which help you understand how to efficiently program with object oriented design
Jul 03 14:38:35 <alex2308> its much more logical
Jul 03 14:38:42 <Dougie188> i learned c first.
Jul 03 14:38:43 <alex2308> java is too complex for beginners
Jul 03 14:38:46 <Dougie188> but java data structures.
Jul 03 14:38:50 <michaelnovakjr> java is not complex
Jul 03 14:38:50 <Dougie188> then to c data structures.
Jul 03 14:38:57 <michaelnovakjr> java is watered down logic
Jul 03 14:39:00 <Dougie188> java is not complex at all.
Jul 03 14:39:07 <Dougie188> c is way more complex, with pointers for one.
Jul 03 14:39:19 <Dougie188> those are probably the hardest thing for beginners to wrap their minds around.
Jul 03 14:39:39 <michaelnovakjr> and c variations, which i have found to be many!
Jul 03 14:39:56 <michaelnovakjr> GNU C is different from standard C which is different from VS C
Jul 03 14:40:05 <Dougie188> lol
Jul 03 14:40:09 <Dougie188> VS C is crap though.
Jul 03 14:40:19 <Dougie188> you shouldnt even compare that one.
Jul 03 14:40:21 <michaelnovakjr> it uses different types
Jul 03 14:40:27 <Dougie188> its for programers who dont program.
Jul 03 14:40:29 <michaelnovakjr> ssize_t is a ptrdiff_t
Jul 03 14:40:44 <michaelnovakjr> static inline is static __inline
Jul 03 14:40:52 <michaelnovakjr> its more annoying than anything
Jul 03 14:41:01 <Dougie188> very much so.,
Jul 03 14:41:04 <michaelnovakjr> it doesn't have inttypes which can be frustrating
Jul 03 14:41:17 <michaelnovakjr> can't tell what your intmax is
Jul 03 14:41:25 <michaelnovakjr> if its long or long long
Jul 03 14:41:38 <michaelnovakjr> but in VS 2008 they at least support long long
Jul 03 14:41:48 <Dougie188> java has a lot of stuff thats really irritating.
Jul 03 14:41:54 <michaelnovakjr> oh yea
Jul 03 14:42:03 <Dougie188> personally i think printing to files quite a bit more difficult in java then in c
Jul 03 14:42:04 <Dougie188> lol
Jul 03 14:42:07 <michaelnovakjr> i could go on and on about have to instantiate objects that should be static
Jul 03 14:42:10 <alex2308> but it is very popular in india *lol*
Jul 03 14:42:15 <Dougie188> be it formatted or binary.
Jul 03 14:42:23 <Dougie188> alex2308: again, thats not an argument.
Jul 03 14:42:28 <michaelnovakjr> hahahahahahhahahaha
Jul 03 14:42:33 <Dougie188> lol i dont think that helps your case any.
Jul 03 14:42:41 <michaelnovakjr> nope
Jul 03 14:43:05 <alex2308> yes, sahib. you are right, sahib.
Jul 03 14:43:19 <Dougie188> ...
Jul 03 14:43:33 <alex2308> heh, im sorry
Jul 03 14:44:49 <muthu> java is popular everywhere
Jul 03 14:45:01 <michaelnovakjr> java sucks!
Jul 03 14:46:26 <muthu> what's the next one?
Jul 03 14:47:19 <Dougie188> the next one what?
Jul 03 14:47:55 <muthu> the replacement for java?
Jul 03 14:48:01 <michaelnovakjr> C
Jul 03 14:48:05 <michaelnovakjr> what more do you need
Jul 03 14:48:23 <muthu> rest my case!
Jul 03 14:48:37 <michaelnovakjr> what are you talking about?
Jul 03 14:49:01 <muthu> michaelnovakjr: C is good
Jul 03 14:49:05 <muthu> no one argues that
Jul 03 14:49:12 <muthu> but move on
Jul 03 14:49:21 <michaelnovakjr> you said java was better....
Jul 03 14:49:24 <michaelnovakjr> you make no sense/
Jul 03 14:49:43 <muthu> where were you the last 10 years?
Jul 03 14:50:13 <michaelnovakjr> have you written any computer software before?
Jul 03 14:50:29 <muthu> if you are doing application programming you are better off with java than c
Jul 03 14:50:33 <muthu> that's what i said
Jul 03 14:50:53 <michaelnovakjr> yes, and that is not true
Jul 03 14:51:25 <michaelnovakjr> what linux software is written in java? what mac software? windows event?
Jul 03 14:51:35 <michaelnovakjr> most computer software is not written in java
Jul 03 14:51:35 <Dougie188> muthu: your only reason for saying that was that its faster and easier.
Jul 03 14:51:41 <Dougie188> but you dont have any reason for saying its faster.
Jul 03 14:51:45 <Dougie188> and easier is a matter of opinion
Jul 03 14:51:46 <michaelnovakjr> or easier
Jul 03 14:52:01 <michaelnovakjr> easier in the sense you don't know programming logic and only know java?
Jul 03 14:52:24 <Dougie188> lol i think python is used more then java.
Jul 03 14:52:44 <michaelnovakjr> haha yea
Jul 03 14:54:28 <Dougie188> lol. even android isnt written in java.
Jul 03 14:54:41 <michaelnovakjr> that's true
Jul 03 14:55:10 <Dougie188> they just gave us a java api.
Jul 03 14:56:04 <anno^da> and why let me count from 3 down :D
Jul 03 14:56:19 <michaelnovakjr> ?
Jul 03 14:56:23 <Dougie188> lol
Jul 03 14:56:24 <Dougie188> ?
Jul 03 14:57:20 <anno^da> they just gave us a java api. <- why? It is so easy why.:)
Jul 03 14:58:08 <Dougie188> if java is so easy. why didnt they write android in java?
Jul 03 14:58:27 <Dougie188> i think they gave us a java api, because it gives them more control, but thats just speculation.
Jul 03 14:58:41 <anno^da> Thats not true.
Jul 03 14:59:15 <Dougie188> and again, saying java is easier then c is all opinion.
Jul 03 14:59:22 <anno^da> If they open up the system below the java layer and they will that can't be an arguement any more
Jul 03 14:59:36 <michaelnovakjr> they wont entirely
Jul 03 14:59:38 <Dougie188> yeah, below the java layer.
Jul 03 14:59:42 <Dougie188> but still.
Jul 03 14:59:44 <michaelnovakjr> that has already been said
Jul 03 14:59:55 <michaelnovakjr> the whole layer will not be open
Jul 03 14:59:58 <anno^da> From my point of view the Java API will not be the last for Android
Jul 03 15:00:08 <michaelnovakjr> ?
Jul 03 15:00:09 <Dougie188> the last what?
Jul 03 15:00:23 <anno^da> Dalvik is not to meant running only java -> dex compiled code
Jul 03 15:00:35 <Dougie188> i dont get your point.
Jul 03 15:01:03 <anno^da> From my point of view Java is only their entry point for the devlopers.
Jul 03 15:01:59 <Dougie188> and from my point of view. doing that, gives them more control over the system.
Jul 03 15:02:02 <anno^da> I don't think that Java will be the only language you can write apps in for Android. (in a long term view)
Jul 03 15:02:36 <michaelnovakjr> why would they want to support multiple apis?
Jul 03 15:02:38 <Dougie188> well, we'll see.
Jul 03 15:02:58 <Dougie188> does anyone else support multiple apis?
Jul 03 15:03:03 <anno^da> Why should they say every home developer can take the system and throw away all the Google stuff out of the system and then close the system down?
Jul 03 15:03:04 <muthu> anno^da: good points
Jul 03 15:03:10 <anno^da> (they said that at the IO)
Jul 03 15:03:31 <michaelnovakjr> because its open source
Jul 03 15:03:32 <Dougie188> what does that have to do with apis?
Jul 03 15:03:37 <michaelnovakjr> nothing at all
Jul 03 15:04:09 <Dougie188> lol, man if only jasta were here.
Jul 03 15:04:19 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 03 15:04:57 <anno^da> Why should they want to support multiple APIs? Cmon thats easy. It makes the plattform more attractive thats all.
Jul 03 15:05:17 <Dougie188> lol they can barely support one api
Jul 03 15:05:22 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 03 15:05:25 <Dougie188> and they were complaining about how hard it would be to maintain branches.
Jul 03 15:05:32 <michaelnovakjr> yep
Jul 03 15:05:33 <Dougie188> and you think they are going to bring up a whole new api?
Jul 03 15:05:42 <michaelnovakjr> they chose NDA over branching.... i mean come on
Jul 03 15:05:51 <anno^da> TODAY
Jul 03 15:05:51 <anno^da> !
Jul 03 15:05:58 <anno^da> but not after open sourcing it
Jul 03 15:06:01 <Dougie188> lol
Jul 03 15:06:03 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 03 15:06:09 <michaelnovakjr> what does open source have to do with it?
Jul 03 15:06:13 <Dougie188> i think after open sourcing they are going to leave a lot of the development up to the community.
Jul 03 15:06:21 <michaelnovakjr> yes
Jul 03 15:06:31 <michaelnovakjr> which means Google won't write a different api
Jul 03 15:06:38 <michaelnovakjr> someone else might, but not Google
Jul 03 15:06:46 <Dougie188> yeah
Jul 03 15:06:50 <anno^da> and what is so wrong about letting the community work ?
Jul 03 15:06:54 <Dougie188> after they open source it they have no reason to write a new api
Jul 03 15:06:59 <Dougie188> nothing anno^da
Jul 03 15:07:02 <Dougie188> we support that completely
Jul 03 15:07:05 <Dougie188> thats open source.
Jul 03 15:07:14 <Dougie188> just google is most likely not going to create a new api to support.
Jul 03 15:07:21 <michaelnovakjr> but it also has nothing to do with Google and/or the providers
Jul 03 15:07:26 <muthu> a C api might come soon for android
Jul 03 15:07:29 <Dougie188> after its open sourced they wont have any reason to make a new api
Jul 03 15:07:50 <michaelnovakjr> muthu, they can't even maintain a Java one... what makes you think a C one would get completed?
Jul 03 15:07:58 <Dougie188> lol. well michaelnovakjr he is in the NDA.
Jul 03 15:08:04 <Dougie188> he might just be spilling the beans.
Jul 03 15:08:19 <michaelnovakjr> maybe NDA folks don't understand the concept of branching
Jul 03 15:08:25 <anno^da> Even if the dont offer a second API, what could be better than an open system being backed up by Google ?
Jul 03 15:08:41 <Dougie188> anno^da: i think your off topic.
Jul 03 15:08:47 <michaelnovakjr> a completely open system backed by google
Jul 03 15:08:48 <Dougie188> thats not even relavent to the discussion we are having.
Jul 03 15:09:23 <Dougie188> we just dont think google has any reason to create a new api to support until its open sourced.
Jul 03 15:09:44 <Dougie188> and after its open sourced. some community members might create a new api. but i would bet they wouldnt waste their time on that.
Jul 03 15:09:56 <michaelnovakjr> probably not
Jul 03 15:09:59 <Dougie188> it creates little to no benefit for the platform or community
Jul 03 15:10:00 <anno^da> I've never said that they will support some new API before open sourcing it ...
Jul 03 15:10:09 <Dougie188> even after open sourcing it.
Jul 03 15:10:19 <Dougie188> after open sourcing it google has less incentive to create it
Jul 03 15:10:48 <michaelnovakjr> **again** not everything is going to be open source
Jul 03 15:10:54 <michaelnovakjr> there will be some pieces missing
Jul 03 15:11:08 * jasta raises an eyebrow
Jul 03 15:11:12 <Dougie188> heh there he is.
Jul 03 15:11:25 <Dougie188> hey jasta, what do you think is a better language?
Jul 03 15:11:29 <Dougie188> C or Java?
Jul 03 15:11:31 <michaelnovakjr> java is way easier
Jul 03 15:11:34 <alex2308> java
Jul 03 15:11:45 <Dougie188> and faster apparently.
Jul 03 15:11:45 <michaelnovakjr> C is a better language
Jul 03 15:12:01 <jasta> better isn't a word you can appropriately apply in this context.
Jul 03 15:12:08 <Dougie188> lol
Jul 03 15:12:11 <Dougie188> well which do you prefer.
Jul 03 15:12:14 <jasta> it is semantically bankrupt
Jul 03 15:12:15 <Dougie188> and what are your reasons.
Jul 03 15:12:17 <anno^da> thank you jasta
Jul 03 15:12:23 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 03 15:12:24 <alex2308> he meant "its easier to confuse someone using weird pointers in C than java"
Jul 03 15:12:29 <Dougie188> anno^da: you were saying java was better!
Jul 03 15:12:43 <michaelnovakjr> Dougie188: some people are afraid to think
Jul 03 15:12:43 <anno^da> No I'm not saying that.
Jul 03 15:12:52 <jasta> Dougie188: i don't have a preference, for there is no reason to.
Jul 03 15:12:57 <michaelnovakjr> weird pointers !?!
Jul 03 15:12:59 <Dougie188> omg. i think the language barrier is frustrating me.
Jul 03 15:12:59 <Dougie188> lol
Jul 03 15:13:05 <jasta> i don't prefer a hammer over a screwdriver, i just use them as they fit.
Jul 03 15:13:08 <michaelnovakjr> its friggin memory dude!
Jul 03 15:13:21 <Dougie188> id rather use a hammer then a screw driver any day.
Jul 03 15:13:41 <Dougie188> and there is reason to have a preference.
Jul 03 15:13:46 <Dougie188> preference doesnt imply thats all you use.
Jul 03 15:13:57 <jasta> in the last year, for example, i have mixed using Java and C on my project.  My server is in C because that made sense for various reasons.  My client is in Java because that is what Android uses.
Jul 03 15:13:58 <Dougie188> that just implies that you have some opinion on the options provided to you.
Jul 03 15:13:58 <michaelnovakjr> i use java far more than i'd like to
Jul 03 15:14:09 <Dougie188> if you were given a java and a c api, which would you choose?
Jul 03 15:14:30 <jasta> i would choose the most appropriate API, which doesn't depend on language.
Jul 03 15:14:34 <Dougie188> jasta: yes, but if you had a choice, would your android thing be in c or java?
Jul 03 15:14:41 <Dougie188> lol..
Jul 03 15:14:48 <Dougie188> your just trying to dodge the question.
Jul 03 15:14:51 <jasta> i think Android makes a lot of sense to be in Java, and i agree with their decision to use it.
Jul 03 15:15:00 <anno^da> hihi
Jul 03 15:15:07 <michaelnovakjr> what about java on android makes sense?
Jul 03 15:15:16 <anno^da> It goes in the wrong direction Dougie188 meant to get it :D
Jul 03 15:15:19 <michaelnovakjr> what features does it provide that benefit from java than c?
Jul 03 15:16:25 <michaelnovakjr> and then there was silence
Jul 03 15:16:47 <Dougie188> lol.
Jul 03 15:16:54 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: from Google's perspective, languages with object-orienated features in the syntax and structure of the language make it easier to implement UI toolkits, as they are one of the best examples of object-oriented programming.
Jul 03 15:18:01 <michaelnovakjr> keyword: easier
Jul 03 15:18:06 <michaelnovakjr> i won't argue that
Jul 03 15:18:30 <michaelnovakjr> but it also feeds incompetent programmers
Jul 03 15:18:33 <jasta> from the developer's perspective, Java provides great expressive power in areas that the platform demands: threading, application-layer networking, etc.
Jul 03 15:18:36 <michaelnovakjr> who write inefficient code
Jul 03 15:18:59 <anno^da> michaelnovakjr: So what. OSX coder also write unefficient code ...
Jul 03 15:19:00 <michaelnovakjr> i absolutely hate GC and don't see why developers can't manage their own memory
Jul 03 15:19:07 <michaelnovakjr> anno^da: ???
Jul 03 15:19:34 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: Many studies have shown that a very efficient GC implementation can outperform lazy programmers
Jul 03 15:19:43 <jasta> and programmers are lazy in the common case :)
Jul 03 15:19:54 <anno^da> The only thing why you are against the JAVA Api is the point that you dont have (from your point of view) talented coders.
Jul 03 15:19:56 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, yes unfortunately
Jul 03 15:20:12 <michaelnovakjr> anno^da: ?
Jul 03 15:20:19 <michaelnovakjr> what does that have to do with os x?
Jul 03 15:20:39 <anno^da> cause you gave the example of the iPhone SDK
Jul 03 15:20:40 <jasta> I do agree with the comment about talent, however.  There are much different communities that surround the two languages.
Jul 03 15:21:02 <michaelnovakjr> the iPhone SDK is a great SDK
Jul 03 15:21:07 <jasta> And in general, the Java community has different habits which won't translate well to mobile development.
Jul 03 15:21:10 <michaelnovakjr> its just completely locked down
Jul 03 15:21:12 <Dougie188> im not even against the java api, thats not what started this whole conversation at all. i just said in my opinion, i like C more then java.
Jul 03 15:21:19 <michaelnovakjr> and it doesn't force you to use GC, its an option
Jul 03 15:21:25 <Dougie188> then we got into the api conversation by me stating that android isnt even written in java.
Jul 03 15:21:48 <jasta> Dougie188: it's hard for me to say i "like" C more, but i do feel more comfortable using it, and have a longer history of using it.
Jul 03 15:22:26 <Dougie188> jasta: based on your previous outbursts of outspokenness, it shouldnt be difficult to state which language you prefer.
Jul 03 15:22:40 <jasta> hmm?
Jul 03 15:22:46 <Dougie188> its not a question of which language you think is more useful.
Jul 03 15:22:48 <Dougie188> or better even.
Jul 03 15:22:51 <Dougie188> just which do you prefer.
Jul 03 15:22:53 <michaelnovakjr> you answered his question from before
Jul 03 15:23:18 <jasta> well do realize that i have only known Java for 6 months.
Jul 03 15:23:27 <Dougie188> similar to the hammer vs. screwdriver question. You use which ever one you need to when you need to, but that doesnt say which you prefer at all.
Jul 03 15:23:31 <michaelnovakjr> lucky you :)
Jul 03 15:23:31 <jasta> my opinion of the language is subject to change ;)
Jul 03 15:23:34 <Dougie188> and you can prefer something and not use it.
Jul 03 15:23:47 <Dougie188> that doesnt matter though, what is your opinion right now.
Jul 03 15:23:58 <Dougie188> in 10 years it might be different, but thats why its an opinion.
Jul 03 15:24:03 <jasta> well, if you really want to change the nature of the discussion to simply illogical preference
Jul 03 15:24:06 <jasta> then i will say i prefer Perl
Jul 03 15:24:09 <jasta> because it's wacky and fun :)
Jul 03 15:24:12 <Dougie188> lol
Jul 03 15:24:22 <michaelnovakjr> haha, definitely wacky :)
Jul 03 15:24:31 <Dougie188> thats not a choice in this multiple choice question.
Jul 03 15:24:33 <jasta> you get to chuckle quietly to yourself as you imagine the next developer after you trying to maintain your code
Jul 03 15:24:36 <Dougie188> so circle a different answer.
Jul 03 15:25:11 <jasta> Dougie188: well, i already gave you sufficient information to tell which one i would prefer.  my point is that it isn't really a useful thing to know about me.
Jul 03 15:25:28 <Dougie188> but thats what this whole conversation is about.
Jul 03 15:25:32 <Dougie188> what we prefer and why.
Jul 03 15:25:38 <jasta> knowing which language i prefer doesn't help you understand anything about hwich language i will choose or support.
Jul 03 15:25:49 <Dougie188> though, some people simply say, java is better because its faster and easier, but they never give a reason why.
Jul 03 15:26:07 <jasta> well, anyone who says x is better than y is being a fool.
Jul 03 15:26:23 <jasta> better is a dangerous word, to be used sparingly.  it is better for engineers to remove it from their vocabulary.
Jul 03 15:26:43 <Dougie188> well i agree that better is a dangerous word, unless you preface it with "in my opinion"
Jul 03 15:26:48 <Dougie188> then its not dangerous at all.
Jul 03 15:27:01 <jasta> if you preface it with "in my opinion", then it becomes even worse.
Jul 03 15:27:24 <Dougie188> lol. i dont think so at all. then you imply it is your preference.
Jul 03 15:27:30 <jasta> better implies fact, but it offers none.
Jul 03 15:27:40 <Dougie188> on its own it does.
Jul 03 15:27:44 <Dougie188> and thats the problem with it,
Jul 03 15:27:51 <jasta> it's like saying in my opinion, the population of Nebraska is 1 million.
Jul 03 15:27:52 <Dougie188> but with it being an opinion it doesnt,
Jul 03 15:28:03 <Dougie188> lol no its not.
Jul 03 15:28:04 <jasta> it doesn't sound like a sensible comment, because the population of Nebraska is not subject to an opinion.
Jul 03 15:28:05 <anno^da> :D
Jul 03 15:28:26 <jasta> neither then is C or Java being better than the other subject to my opinion.
Jul 03 15:28:33 <Dougie188> your now taking in my opinion and just showing me a poor way to use that phrase.
Jul 03 15:28:36 <jasta> This is why the word is dangerous and should not be used :)
Jul 03 15:29:06 <Dougie188> C and Java being better in an opinion is simply stating your preference. and that is not dangerous at all.
Jul 03 15:29:17 <jasta> It doesn't convey an appropriate meaning.  Nobody knows what you're talking about when you say something like Java is better than C.
Jul 03 15:29:29 <Dougie188> if someone counteracts you with facts stating why your opinion is wrong, then your opinion might change.
Jul 03 15:29:41 <Dougie188> but having an opinion about something like that is not dangerous in itself.
Jul 03 15:29:51 <jasta> opinions can't be wrong, Dougie.  only facts from which opinions are derived can be.
Jul 03 15:30:03 <Dougie188> i know this.
Jul 03 15:30:05 <zhobbs_> the question is flawed because it depends on the situation
Jul 03 15:30:15 <Dougie188> omg. no it doesnt.
Jul 03 15:30:23 <Dougie188> the question does not depend on the situation.
Jul 03 15:30:33 <jasta> You are unlikely to convince me on this topic.  Better does not belong in any discussion of opinion.
Jul 03 15:30:34 <zhobbs_> for android I prefer java
Jul 03 15:30:42 <zhobbs_> for pic microcontrollers I prefer C
Jul 03 15:30:48 <Dougie188> the question that would depend on a situation would be "Which language would you code a program for android in?"
Jul 03 15:30:58 <Dougie188> thats based on a situation.
Jul 03 15:31:09 <jasta> that question is also easier to answer.  I like that Java was the choice there.
Jul 03 15:31:10 <Dougie188> or "What language do you use to code programs?"
Jul 03 15:31:14 <Dougie188> that depends on the situation too.
Jul 03 15:31:24 <Dougie188> Thats not the question im asking.
Jul 03 15:31:36 <Dougie188> the question im asking is. "Which language do you prefer to code in?"
Jul 03 15:31:55 <Dougie188> and that implies "If you had your choice of any language for any situation, which language would you choose."
Jul 03 15:31:56 <jasta> bbl, work
Jul 03 15:31:57 <anno^da> jasta: Please say "I like C more than everything else" and everything will be fine ;)
Jul 03 15:32:13 <zhobbs_> I have no preference
Jul 03 15:32:19 <zhobbs_> choose the best for the job
Jul 03 15:32:20 <Dougie188> anno^da: i dont even care if he says he likes java more then c.
Jul 03 15:32:29 <Dougie188> thats ridiculous.
Jul 03 15:32:32 <jasta> anno^da: I do know C very well, at least ;)
Jul 03 15:32:54 <Dougie188> anno^da: i just wanted him to answer the question now. lol he just keeps dodging it.
Jul 03 15:33:03 <Dougie188> though i can draw a conclusion from his answers thus far.
Jul 03 15:33:16 <zhobbs_> he's always said he likes C
Jul 03 15:33:20 <jasta> you can conclude that i'm probably the only person in this channel who has read both C89 and C99, and K&R :)
Jul 03 15:33:23 <Dougie188> i know.
Jul 03 15:33:26 <morrildl> Dougie188: who are you?
Jul 03 15:33:31 <Dougie188> thats why i made some comments earlier.
Jul 03 15:33:39 <Dougie188> morrildl: what do you mean?
Jul 03 15:33:39 <morrildl> And what have you done with Dougie187?
Jul 03 15:33:48 <Dougie188> lol. i ate his connection.
Jul 03 15:33:53 <Dougie188> after he logged in using a vpn.
Jul 03 15:33:57 <morrildl> ;)
Jul 03 15:33:59 <Dougie188> and then disconnected without closing irc.
Jul 03 15:34:04 <Dougie188> so i stole this name.
Jul 03 15:34:13 <Dougie188> sort of.
Jul 03 15:34:24 <michaelnovakjr> jasta i did too
Jul 03 15:34:59 <Dougie188> morrildl: who are you?
Jul 03 15:35:15 <morrildl> Dougie188: I am some schmuck who managed to identify to nickserv as morrildl
Jul 03 15:35:24 <Dougie188> thats cool.
Jul 03 15:35:36 <Dougie188> sounds like a pretty awesome thing to do actually.
Jul 03 15:35:41 <Dougie188> ill have to try that next time.
Jul 03 15:40:07 <Dougie188> so everyone go some awesome plans for july 4th?
Jul 03 15:40:16 <Dougie188> minus the foreigners.
Jul 03 15:41:23 <muthu> Dougie188: what's your jul 4 plan?
Jul 03 15:41:51 <Dougie188> i will probably end up playing a variety of blizzard games including diablo 2, and then helping my wife paint our bedroom.
Jul 03 15:42:03 <muthu> cool
Jul 03 15:42:04 <Dougie188> possibly go to the local park and watch some fireworks as well
Jul 03 15:42:10 <muthu> yeah, fireworks
Jul 03 15:42:18 <Dougie188> nothing all that great though
Jul 03 15:57:51 <Dougie188> found diablo 2 cdkeys for $5.85 a set (orig/exp) if anyone wants the link lemme know.
Jul 03 16:02:26 <Dougie188> btw, michaelnovakjr
Jul 03 16:02:37 <michaelnovakjr> what's up
Jul 03 16:02:48 <Dougie188> lenovo has a 12% cash back sale right now until the 9th with fatwallet.
Jul 03 16:02:58 <Dougie188> they also have a coupon for 5% off T series laptops.
Jul 03 16:03:05 <michaelnovakjr> nice... what's fatwallet?
Jul 03 16:03:07 <Dougie188> hopefully on the 6th they will come out with an R series coupon.
Jul 03 16:03:09 <Dougie188> a deal site.
Jul 03 16:03:17 <michaelnovakjr> nice
Jul 03 16:03:19 <alex2308> you need d2 keys?
Jul 03 16:03:21 <michaelnovakjr> got a link?
Jul 03 16:03:29 <Dougie188> www.fatwallet.com
Jul 03 16:03:41 <michaelnovakjr> ah easy enough :)
Jul 03 16:03:41 <Dougie188> you have to go through their link
Jul 03 16:03:48 <Dougie188> but i just priced a sweet T series.
Jul 03 16:03:52 <Dougie188> one sec ill get you a total
Jul 03 16:03:56 <michaelnovakjr> how much?
Jul 03 16:03:58 <michaelnovakjr> oh cool?
Jul 03 16:04:02 <michaelnovakjr> - ?
Jul 03 16:04:04 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 03 16:04:25 <Dougie188> total 955.95 after cash back.
Jul 03 16:04:32 <michaelnovakjr> damn
Jul 03 16:04:36 <michaelnovakjr> what are the specs?
Jul 03 16:04:36 <Dougie188> only bad part is you have to wait for the cash back.
Jul 03 16:04:39 <Dougie188> and you have to pay taxes on it.
Jul 03 16:04:49 <michaelnovakjr> how much is the cashback?
Jul 03 16:05:46 <Dougie187> lol that probably wasnt the best idea.
Jul 03 16:05:48 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 03 16:05:51 <Dougie187> here ill pm you the stuff
Jul 03 16:05:55 <Dougie187> and cashback is 12%
Jul 03 16:06:02 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Jul 03 16:06:02 <Dougie187> so thats 88% of what you have to pay taxes on.
Jul 03 16:06:11 <Dougie187> total before cashback is 1086.31
Jul 03 16:06:18 <Dougie187> ill pm you specs.
Jul 03 16:06:23 <michaelnovakjr> cool, thanks
Jul 03 16:15:21 <jasta> yawn
Jul 03 16:18:45 <yakischloba> that storm was out of hand
Jul 03 16:18:51 <michaelnovakjr> ?
Jul 03 16:18:53 <yakischloba> i got about 2 hours of sleep all night
Jul 03 16:18:53 <jasta> yakischloba: yeah no kidding
Jul 03 16:19:01 <jasta> i was up setting up a tent in greenwater!
Jul 03 16:19:07 <yakischloba> I'm considering calling into work, I'm completely exhausted
Jul 03 16:19:09 <yakischloba> haha
Jul 03 16:19:23 <jasta> we're going camping this weekend (ewather is supposed to even out by Friday)
Jul 03 16:19:30 <jasta> so i went up and staked out a primitive site last night
Jul 03 16:20:23 <yakischloba> jeez
Jul 03 16:20:54 <jasta> weather report says friday is supposed to be warm and maybe rainy, dry at night
Jul 03 16:20:57 <jasta> then saturday is supposed to be nice
Jul 03 16:21:00 <yakischloba> when I first woke up at about 2am there was just this insane thunder that lasted for 30 seconds or so
Jul 03 16:21:02 <jasta> so i think itll work out
Jul 03 16:21:07 <yakischloba> I had no idea what it was, I thought the world was coming to an end
Jul 03 16:21:35 <yakischloba> bleh. today's bike race will no doubt be canceled. this has been such a useless spring around here ;(
Jul 03 16:23:23 <yakischloba> btw I started learning Java yesterday. It seems to be coming pretty easily.
Jul 03 16:28:08 <krosaen> if you are already experienced programming in other languages, this book is good for getting up to speed on java
Jul 03 16:28:09 <krosaen> http://www.amazon.com/Java-Precisely-2nd-Peter-Sestoft/dp/0262693259
Jul 03 16:28:36 <krosaen> i.e doesn't waste time teaching basic programming concepts
Jul 03 16:55:28 <yakischloba> krosaen: just ruby :(
Jul 03 16:55:50 <michaelnovakjr> i wouldn't call programming basics a waste of time
Jul 03 16:56:04 <michaelnovakjr> its stuff like that we have to thank for bad code :)
Jul 03 16:56:52 <yakischloba> krosaen: so far I've just read the little bit of stuff here http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial
Jul 03 17:05:52 <yakischloba> Is there another language you could say java is most similar to?
Jul 03 17:06:10 <michaelnovakjr> not really
Jul 03 17:06:16 <yakischloba> i didn't figure so
Jul 03 17:06:21 <yakischloba> seems pretty different
Jul 03 17:06:23 <michaelnovakjr> its an object oriented language
Jul 03 17:06:30 <michaelnovakjr> are you familiar with oo
Jul 03 17:06:39 <yakischloba> yes, ruby is oo ;)
Jul 03 17:06:57 <michaelnovakjr> ruby doesn't count :)
Jul 03 17:07:05 <michaelnovakjr> i don't consider it a real language
Jul 03 17:07:10 <yakischloba> well
Jul 03 17:07:19 <yakischloba> for the purpose of understand OO, it counts
Jul 03 17:07:20 <michaelnovakjr> theres literally no syntax
Jul 03 17:07:31 <yakischloba> yeah its spectacular :)
Jul 03 17:07:40 <michaelnovakjr> haha, that's not a good  thing
Jul 03 17:07:52 <michaelnovakjr> i would look at java application design as well
Jul 03 17:08:04 <yakischloba> yeah I'm coming to find that out, at least transitioning back to a more 'strict' language like java
Jul 03 17:08:08 <michaelnovakjr> that way you have an understanding of efficient java programming
Jul 03 17:08:37 <michaelnovakjr> creating objects carelessly is fun for no one
Jul 03 17:09:29 <yakischloba> crazy stuff like that the size of an array is fixed after being instantiated and that a methods argument types must be explicitly stated
Jul 03 17:09:48 <michaelnovakjr> there's different types
Jul 03 17:10:09 <michaelnovakjr> vectors and hashtables don't have a fixed length and will reallocate to allow new objects
Jul 03 17:10:25 <yakischloba> sweet. I haven't gotten there yet. whew. I thought I was toasted ;)
Jul 03 17:10:50 <michaelnovakjr> there's a difference between vectors and hashtabless in terms of usage
Jul 03 17:10:59 <michaelnovakjr> that's where the application design comes in
Jul 03 17:11:10 <michaelnovakjr> when and where to use the various data types and objects
Jul 03 17:11:45 <yakischloba> mmhmm.
Jul 03 17:12:21 <yakischloba> well I'm mildly intimidated but not as much as I anticipated
Jul 03 17:12:30 <romainguy__> Java is a pretty simple language
Jul 03 17:12:53 <michaelnovakjr> ye
Jul 03 17:12:54 <michaelnovakjr> s
Jul 03 17:13:05 <michaelnovakjr> but follows some different programming patterns than one might be used to
Jul 03 17:13:27 <romainguy> if you come from languages like Ruby sure
Jul 03 17:13:35 <yakischloba> I'm assuming the OO thing is often the hardest bit to grasp, but I think I have a good handle on it despite michaelnovakjr's doubts ;)
Jul 03 17:13:42 <romainguy> but if you come from more "traditional" languages, then it's pretty much the same
Jul 03 17:13:45 <michaelnovakjr> even some other oo languages
Jul 03 17:14:08 <michaelnovakjr> i just hate ruby and the guy(s) who created it
Jul 03 17:14:26 <yakischloba> you're not alone, thats for sure.
Jul 03 17:14:28 <krosaen> i think java is pretty easy coming from c++
Jul 03 17:14:32 <romainguy__> yeah I never liked Ruby either
Jul 03 17:14:49 <romainguy__> that said when I tried to learn it there was pretty much only japanes docs available, that didn't help :)
Jul 03 17:15:26 <krosaen> python is my dynamic lang of choice for now
Jul 03 17:15:41 <michaelnovakjr> python power!
Jul 03 17:15:43 <romainguy__> krosaen: as if you had a choice at Google ;-)
Jul 03 17:15:55 <krosaen> heh, well i could use javascript
Jul 03 17:16:51 <krosaen> i'd love to have more time to play with scala too, seems really interesting at first inspection
Jul 03 17:17:31 <krosaen> anyone try out scala on android?
Jul 03 17:17:32 <krosaen> http://www.scala-lang.org/downloads/targets/android.html
Jul 03 17:17:54 <romainguy> maybe Dick Wall has tried
Jul 03 17:18:17 <krosaen> yeah, he's in love with scala
Jul 03 17:31:42 <Dougie187> im back
Jul 03 17:32:15 <michaelnovakjr> what's up
Jul 03 17:32:19 <Dougie187> not too much
Jul 03 17:32:25 <Dougie187> you get to check out those laptops?
Jul 03 17:33:11 <michaelnovakjr> not ye
Jul 03 17:33:11 <michaelnovakjr> t
Jul 03 17:33:27 <michaelnovakjr> in a few... gotta finish this ridiculous path test at work
Jul 03 17:33:34 <Dougie187> heh
Jul 03 17:34:59 <Dougie187> im going to wait until monday to look at getting one myself.
Jul 03 17:36:21 <michaelnovakjr> not bad
Jul 03 17:36:59 <Dougie187> monday they should come out with coupons, hopefully better then 5%
Jul 03 17:37:27 <michaelnovakjr> i think i'll wait then too
Jul 03 17:39:13 <Dougie187> yeah, i hope they are better then 5% at least.
Jul 03 17:39:27 <Dougie187> either way though, this deal is better then employee pricing.
Jul 03 17:39:51 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Jul 03 19:02:59 <Dougie187> anyone look into this?
Jul 03 19:03:00 <Dougie187> http://labs.mozilla.com/contests/extendfirefox3/
Jul 03 19:03:05 <Dougie187> its a bit out of the mobile realm
Jul 03 19:03:07 <Dougie187> but still
Jul 03 19:04:41 <f00f-> not yet
Jul 03 19:04:49 <f00f-> i need help on a ListActivity
Jul 03 19:05:02 <f00f-> i setContentView to a layout containin @+id/list as my ListView
Jul 03 19:05:30 <f00f-> but it still errs out and says: Caused by: java.lang.RuntimeException: Your content must have a ListView whose id attribute is 'android.R.id.list'
Jul 03 19:06:36 <romainguy__> it's @id:android/list
Jul 03 19:06:44 <f00f-> no plus?
Jul 03 19:06:50 <romainguy__> you are using com.whatever.your.app.package.is.R.id.list
Jul 03 19:06:56 <romainguy__> a + is used to create an id
Jul 03 19:07:02 <f00f-> oh gotcha
Jul 03 19:07:03 <romainguy__> no need to create it if it already exists
Jul 03 19:08:50 <f00f-> ugh, i hate X windows
Jul 03 19:08:55 <romainguy__> yes
Jul 03 19:08:58 <romainguy__> it's a POS :)
Jul 03 19:09:05 <f00f-> i accidentally ctrl-alt-backspace'd
Jul 03 19:09:07 <f00f-> well
Jul 03 19:09:16 <f00f-> i hit ctrl-alt which switches the keyboard layout
Jul 03 19:09:24 <f00f-> and then i hit backspace, and apparently it was within some 'window'
Jul 03 19:11:13 <f00f-> wellit liked android:id instead
Jul 03 19:11:27 <romainguy__> ah yes
Jul 03 19:11:29 <romainguy__> sorry for the typo
Jul 03 19:12:07 <f00f-> np, this shuold be fun, getting to work on UI again
Jul 03 19:12:38 <jasta> Dougie187: i like the puzzle pieces
Jul 03 19:13:08 <Dougie187> ?
Jul 03 19:19:54 <jasta> in that firefox link you sent
Jul 03 19:19:57 <jasta> the puzzle pieces look cute ;)
Jul 03 19:20:11 <Dougie187> oh
Jul 03 19:20:12 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 03 19:20:12 <Dougie187> yeah
Jul 03 19:20:18 <jasta> anyway, bbl, heading home
Jul 03 19:20:21 <jasta> easy half day today :)
Jul 03 19:20:22 <Dougie187> you can win a mac laptop if you make a thing tonight!
Jul 03 19:20:23 <Dougie187> heh
Jul 03 19:20:31 <Dougie187> see ya in a bit.
Jul 03 19:22:03 <zer0her0> what sort of thing? and which laptop?
Jul 03 19:23:51 <Dougie187> for firefox.
Jul 03 19:23:56 <Dougie187> either a powerbook or a mac book air
Jul 03 19:28:09 <zer0her0> macbook pro i hope you mean ;)
Jul 03 19:28:18 <Dougie187> sure.
Jul 03 19:28:20 <zer0her0> mmmm an air would be nice.
Jul 03 19:28:24 <Dougie187> same thing, just older generation.
Jul 03 19:29:01 <zer0her0> i know
Jul 03 19:29:19 <zer0her0> i'm just saying winning a powerbook vs a macbook pro is pretty big difference
Jul 03 19:30:04 <Dougie187> sure.
Jul 03 19:30:11 <Dougie187> id go for the pro though.
Jul 03 19:32:02 <zer0her0> already have a pro hehe
Jul 03 19:32:38 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 03 19:32:42 <Dougie187> i dont want an air
Jul 03 19:33:03 <romainguy__> I want an air ^^
Jul 03 19:37:53 <michaelnovakjr> i don't want an air
Jul 03 19:37:57 <michaelnovakjr> i want a dvd drive
Jul 03 19:38:17 <zer0her0> optical media is dead
Jul 03 19:38:26 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 03 19:38:29 <Dougie187> tell that to sony.
Jul 03 19:38:30 <michaelnovakjr> haha not really
Jul 03 19:38:47 <Dougie187> and console game developers.
Jul 03 19:38:57 <Dougie187> or console developers for that matter.
Jul 03 19:38:59 * zer0her0 looks at the success of PSN and XBLA
Jul 03 19:39:02 <f00f-> it's pretty dead for notebooks
Jul 03 19:39:08 <michaelnovakjr> and OS installs
Jul 03 19:39:17 * zer0her0 looks at iTunes and Amazon unboxed
Jul 03 19:39:27 <Dougie187> XBLA vs. Xbox360 games?
Jul 03 19:39:40 <zer0her0> well i listed PSN first for a reason
Jul 03 19:39:40 <zer0her0> ;)
Jul 03 19:39:41 <Dougie187> XBLA games are junk compared to ones you get from the store.
Jul 03 19:39:44 <Dougie187> lol
Jul 03 19:39:49 <Dougie187> i havent tried the PSN games.
Jul 03 19:39:58 <Dougie187> but XBLA games suck for the most part.
Jul 03 19:40:17 <zer0her0> define suck?
Jul 03 19:40:41 <Dougie187> not worth the time to play them.
Jul 03 19:40:54 <zer0her0> for you maybe
Jul 03 19:40:56 <Dougie187> there are a couple that are decent.
Jul 03 19:41:04 <Dougie187> but not many keep your attention for the long haul.
Jul 03 19:41:10 <Dougie187> like halo 3 for instance.
Jul 03 19:41:12 <Dougie187> or CoD4
Jul 03 19:41:37 <Dougie187> you get games like Geometry wars (which has become a franchise of sorts) and N which is just a remake of a flash game.
Jul 03 19:41:40 <zer0her0> um halo 3 didn't keep my attention, CoD4 did
Jul 03 19:41:49 <Dougie187> either way, one of the two did.
Jul 03 19:41:54 <Dougie187> and probably for quite a while.
Jul 03 19:42:04 <zer0her0> the top PSN releases are also Blu-Ray releases
Jul 03 19:42:28 <zer0her0> and XBLA is the way it is cause of the fact of the 360 core
Jul 03 19:42:36 <zer0her0> needs a memory card or HDD
Jul 03 19:43:18 <Dougie187> what about bluray movies?
Jul 03 19:43:59 <zer0her0> eh
Jul 03 19:44:02 <zer0her0> just a matter of time
Jul 03 19:44:11 <Dougie187> lol, by that time something new will be out.
Jul 03 19:44:41 <zer0her0> something new...as in DL service...and the people will finally have caught up with the future that is now
Jul 03 19:44:45 <Dougie187> granted, i think optical media are an obsolete way of backing up data. but i think they still have a use.
Jul 03 19:50:35 <yakischloba> should I wait for the new android SDK to start learning it?
Jul 03 19:50:43 <Dougie187> i am
Jul 03 19:51:04 <romainguy__> things have not changed that much
Jul 03 19:51:06 <romainguy__> since M5
Jul 03 19:51:15 <yakischloba> hmm.
Jul 03 19:51:53 <Dougie187> whats all the press saying that it will take a significant overhaul to bring code up to snuff for the new SDKs?
Jul 03 19:52:25 <romainguy__> people who haven't even seen the new SDKs
Jul 03 19:52:31 <romainguy__> you can ask f00f-
Jul 03 19:52:34 <romainguy__> there were changes
Jul 03 19:52:40 <Dougie187> but it was quotes from the Weather Channel group.
Jul 03 19:52:52 <romainguy__> but we mostly renamed things, not completely changed everything
Jul 03 19:54:01 <f00f-> yeah mostly renames and cleaning up things
Jul 03 19:54:07 <f00f-> didn't really take that long to migrate
Jul 03 19:55:17 <f00f-> yay for XML layouts :)
Jul 03 19:55:41 <f00f-> i am removing the last code-based layout right now ;)
Jul 03 19:55:43 <yakischloba> i think I'll wait anyway, get up to speed on Java.
Jul 03 19:55:59 <yakischloba> As far as speculated release of the SDK, is it like...weeks, months?
Jul 03 19:56:21 <romainguy__> before the handsets launch
Jul 03 19:56:29 <Dougie187> heh
Jul 03 19:56:37 <Dougie187> we have heard that the hope is at least a month before handset launch.
Jul 03 19:56:38 <yakischloba> yeah nice and vague
Jul 03 19:56:43 <romainguy__> so according to public information, it would be between now and the end of the year :)
Jul 03 19:56:45 <Dougie187> and handset launch is supposed to be by the end of the year.
Jul 03 19:56:51 <yakischloba> yeah
Jul 03 19:56:53 <yakischloba> I figured as much
Jul 03 19:56:53 <Dougie187> so based on those, between now and the end of november.
Jul 03 19:57:13 <romainguy__> eh, we're working hard on making things work :)
Jul 03 19:58:03 <yakischloba> I guess I'd be a little behind the curve if I waited until immediately preceding handset release
Jul 03 19:58:04 <yakischloba> sigh
Jul 03 20:03:09 <anno^da_> By the way the FIC Neo Freeruner is out for sale. (for the Open Source guys here)
Jul 03 20:03:10 <anno^da_> http://www.openmoko.com/product.html
Jul 03 20:05:22 <spykid> # GPRS (2.5G not EDGE)
Jul 03 20:06:41 <anno^da_> Yeah I know. It is interesting for developers with low level experience at the moment.
Jul 03 20:07:11 <anno^da_> Everything is open source even the CAD models of the case :)
Jul 03 21:37:46 <zhobbs> http://developer.sprint.com/instinct/
Jul 03 21:38:38 <zhobbs> everyone's doing it
Jul 03 21:39:27 <f00f-> :D
Jul 03 21:39:43 <f00f-> is that on Titan ?
Jul 03 21:39:45 <f00f-> or still Java ME
Jul 03 21:40:07 <zhobbs> dunno
Jul 03 21:40:15 <f00f-> havent seen any titan devices out yet
Jul 03 23:16:08 <morrildl> Explosives laced with heavy metals detonated in an urban area.  Any other day of the year, they call this a terrorist attack.
Jul 03 23:16:24 <morrildl> But tomorrow, we call them "fireworks"
Jul 03 23:16:31 <duey> tomororw?
Jul 03 23:16:38 <morrildl> 4 July
Jul 03 23:16:42 <duey> aren't fireworks in november?
Jul 03 23:16:48 <morrildl> maybe in the UK
Jul 03 23:16:51 <duey> oh right
Jul 03 23:17:10 * morrildl eyes duey
Jul 03 23:17:15 <morrildl> what are you, a Briton?
Jul 03 23:17:36 <duey> na, NZ but similar I guess
Jul 03 23:17:40 <morrildl> ah, okay
Jul 03 23:17:50 <duey> commonwealth
Jul 03 23:17:59 <morrildl> 4 July is the day we celebrate telling the UK to go get stuffed ;)
Jul 03 23:18:09 <duey> traitors
Jul 03 23:18:14 <morrildl> Apparently.
Jul 03 23:33:43 <Bery11ium> yay, no work tomorrow for me ... (I traded July 1st for July 4th)
Jul 03 23:36:30 <zer0her0> Bery11ium: did you use to be a big BeOS fan?
Jul 04 00:35:08 <rhett> man, cell phones are the hugest pain ever
Jul 04 00:35:28 <rhett> hey google, when will grand central be open?
Jul 04 00:36:21 <rhett> I need some cell phones today.  what should I buy/ what plan should I sign up under that will be able to run android in a few months?
Jul 04 00:36:49 <f00f-> dont
Jul 04 00:36:52 <f00f-> just wait until november buddy
Jul 04 00:36:55 <f00f-> save your money
Jul 04 00:37:07 <rhett> umm I need to talk on a cell phone between now and november
Jul 04 00:37:42 <rhett> I have 2 old razr phones, and one of them has 9 minutes left on prepaid, one is "unlocked", both are tmobile
Jul 04 00:38:06 <rhett> in my area, I get at&t or alltell.  alltel is cdma, and at&t is gsm, like t-mobile
Jul 04 00:38:19 <rhett> at&t says that even if I use my phone, it's a 2 year contract
Jul 04 00:38:40 <f00f-> nope
Jul 04 00:38:56 <muthu> the carriers having a field day these days
Jul 04 00:39:02 <muthu> hope it would change soon
Jul 04 00:39:13 <rhett> well, what do you suggest, foof-?
Jul 04 00:39:48 <rhett> yeah, for me and my girlfriend to get iphones cost ~$200 / month for the first year, with this $30 / month data plan we can't even use in our area
Jul 04 00:40:13 <muthu> then no point in getting an iphone
Jul 04 00:40:44 <f00f-> i suggest you wait
Jul 04 00:40:46 <rhett> yeah, well, i had a 2g iphone, that was pretty nice
Jul 04 00:41:09 <rhett> ok, foof-, we can't "wait" for 4 months with no phone
Jul 04 00:41:27 <rhett> muthu is right though, without 3g, the iphone is pretty stupid here
Jul 04 00:41:36 <muthu> get a nokia
Jul 04 00:41:41 <muthu> n95 is pretty cool
Jul 04 00:41:55 <rhett> will that run android?
Jul 04 00:42:08 <f00f-> nothign will run android, so sotp asking for it
Jul 04 00:42:10 <f00f-> and start waiting
Jul 04 00:42:19 <muthu> android will take a while
Jul 04 00:42:33 <muthu> i'm not even sure, when it will be available to me in india
Jul 04 00:42:39 <rhett> i mean, will the n95 run android in november?
Jul 04 00:42:48 <muthu> hope gphone doesn't act like sj and iphone!!
Jul 04 00:43:00 <muthu> rhett: nokia, not anytime
Jul 04 00:43:05 <muthu> i mean not anytime soon
Jul 04 00:43:14 <rhett> rhia noki IA WZPWNAICW
Jul 04 00:43:30 <rhett> I'm trying to go cheap here
Jul 04 00:43:47 <muthu> yeah, nokia has some range
Jul 04 00:44:05 <rhett> ok, at&t has me by the balls here, I basically have to go with them
Jul 04 00:44:47 <muthu> oh oh
Jul 04 00:44:52 <muthu> that's a bad position to be in
Jul 04 00:48:06 <muthu> i just want android to be different
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jul 04 02:59:57 2008