**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jul 19 02:59:57 2008 Jul 19 03:03:52 you are making a file manager for android? Jul 19 03:03:58 yea Jul 19 03:04:02 cool Jul 19 03:04:12 sounds useful..im surprised no one has needed one yet Jul 19 03:04:16 working on a few apps to mess around with on the touch Jul 19 03:04:41 i believe there was an m3 one, but it was more or less a demo if i understood correctly Jul 19 03:05:02 how are people running android on their phones? with haret or some other bootloader? Jul 19 03:05:25 haret Jul 19 03:05:34 you have a vogue/touch? Jul 19 03:05:36 and is it functional/stable? Jul 19 03:05:38 no neither Jul 19 03:05:52 its well, you know.... Jul 19 03:06:02 its not bad, but not alot of functionality Jul 19 03:06:10 yeah. Does calling and SMS work? Jul 19 03:06:11 you can make calls on it and send txt messages Jul 19 03:06:14 oh Jul 19 03:06:18 use the browser Jul 19 03:06:28 Is it slow? Jul 19 03:06:41 its cell speeds Jul 19 03:06:53 the browser is nice Jul 19 03:07:36 Is it a more useful testbed than the emulator? Jul 19 03:07:47 still testing that theory out Jul 19 03:07:57 as far as getting a feel for the UI sure Jul 19 03:08:00 yeah of course Jul 19 03:08:13 whats boot time like? Jul 19 03:08:14 just a few things behave differently Jul 19 03:08:32 i haven't updated to the latest software but i have heard its much quicker Jul 19 03:08:43 i heard a bit faster than the emulator Jul 19 03:09:12 i'm updating my device tonight Jul 19 03:09:23 i wrote a remote log viewer for it Jul 19 03:09:29 hmm. Is it stable enough that anyone is using it as their daily phone? Jul 19 03:09:32 so i can get logcat on my machine Jul 19 03:09:46 if you don't use your phone for much :) Jul 19 03:09:56 heh Jul 19 03:09:56 no email and battery and time don't update Jul 19 03:10:00 gotcha Jul 19 03:10:10 its fun to mess around with though Jul 19 03:10:20 it is certainly going to be a killer phone Jul 19 03:10:57 yeah. I watched a couple vids a long time ago of google folks playing around with devices. Jul 19 03:11:09 yea, i love it Jul 19 03:11:22 i haven't seen an email clients floating around.... have you? Jul 19 03:11:35 None, but I have barely peeked at anyones apps. Jul 19 03:11:38 other than the obvious gmail client Jul 19 03:12:13 So is this just an image from the SDK that the emulator uses or something? Jul 19 03:12:20 yea Jul 19 03:12:30 it apparently is running a much more up to date kernel Jul 19 03:12:54 which i think might have some undesired results as far as the userspace is concerned Jul 19 03:13:04 What is? the emulator? Jul 19 03:13:13 the haret devices Jul 19 03:13:45 oh. are people compiling their own kernels then? Jul 19 03:13:48 the kernel is in the git repo Jul 19 03:13:58 git.android.com Jul 19 03:14:17 there's also an elf compiler for linux Jul 19 03:14:27 i've ran a few elementary C apps in the emulator Jul 19 03:14:33 hm Jul 19 03:14:57 not sure what security precautions google will take though Jul 19 03:15:13 right now there's not much :) Jul 19 03:15:41 So the kernel work is public despite the SDK not Jul 19 03:15:56 that is the impression i got Jul 19 03:16:48 Has anyone gotten it to boot natively on a device? Jul 19 03:17:02 I mean I've seen pics and stuff but Jul 19 03:17:06 any projects? Jul 19 03:17:25 not that i know of Jul 19 03:17:29 i was going to try it Jul 19 03:17:41 but it would be hard with some of the hardware Jul 19 03:18:00 and since the interface isn't all that complete battery life would be a mere guess Jul 19 03:18:16 bootstrapping from winmo isn't too bad though Jul 19 03:19:15 you writing anything? Jul 19 03:20:15 I had an idea for an app and I jumped in and started learning but I've been on a mini-vacation this week Jul 19 03:20:51 cool, you're the one who's new to java right? Jul 19 03:20:51 I intended to spend a great part of it doing android stuff but it hasn't turned out that way Jul 19 03:20:55 yeah Jul 19 03:21:01 java is interesting Jul 19 03:21:10 I like it so far Jul 19 03:21:15 yea Jul 19 03:21:26 coming from your most-hated (ruby,) its not really that different. Just more structured. Jul 19 03:21:37 :) Jul 19 03:21:44 which I'm finding to be nice. Jul 19 03:22:29 what i recommend is starting out with simple yet useful apps Jul 19 03:22:37 even if they already exist Jul 19 03:22:42 ehh yeah. I'm never good at holding myself back doing that ;) Jul 19 03:22:50 I'm the type to jump in over my head at every opportunity hah Jul 19 03:23:05 i'm the same wya Jul 19 03:23:57 So far I just have to check on syntactic differences of Java occasionally...its the Android stuff that kinda holds me up. Its a lot to take in at first. Jul 19 03:24:44 true Jul 19 03:24:55 syntax wise... damn is there a difference :) Jul 19 03:25:07 java is a strict type language Jul 19 03:25:10 or at least it is for me because I haven't worked with a big SDK like this before Jul 19 03:25:18 ruby, well... they make up their own rules :0 Jul 19 03:25:23 heh yeah Jul 19 03:25:26 I keep thinking like Jul 19 03:25:40 wait, this is gonna be a string now but...am I fucked if I need it to be an int later?.. Jul 19 03:25:46 ;) Jul 19 03:26:02 you can create an Integer class like.... Jul 19 03:26:29 Integer intClass = new Integer( stringVal ); ... then to get a primitive int you can do intClass.intValue(); Jul 19 03:26:51 cool Jul 19 03:27:05 its a bit of work just to get a primitive type but... Jul 19 03:27:14 it works Jul 19 03:27:16 we don't have primitive types in ruby ;) Jul 19 03:27:21 :) Jul 19 03:27:47 heh. So anyway, its just a matter of remembering to do stuff like that (declare types) Jul 19 03:27:52 yea Jul 19 03:27:57 the syntax differences don't bother me at all really, i barely notice Jul 19 03:28:09 i never remember language specifics Jul 19 03:28:22 i always have the docs window handy Jul 19 03:28:33 yeah. I keep it up at all times. and about 15 android docs windows. Jul 19 03:28:43 i remember the basics but I use quite a few languages on a regular basis and well I have a crappy memory Jul 19 03:29:48 hehe Jul 19 03:31:24 yeah Jul 19 03:32:07 howdy Jul 19 03:32:28 yeah its been a lot to take in but I just kind of sit back and let it soak in. stuff like content providers and the magical R.java have confused me a little but I think i'm getting the hang of it Jul 19 03:32:46 yea, that's all Android specific stuff Jul 19 03:32:58 that had me stumped when i started Jul 19 03:33:08 heh Jul 19 03:33:18 michaelnovakjr_: Integer intClass = new Integer( stringVal ); ... then to get a primitive int you can do intClass.intValue(); << no you don't have to do this Jul 19 03:33:33 auto unboxing will give you the primitive :) Jul 19 03:33:42 or you can use directly Integer.parseInt() Jul 19 03:33:45 in ruby we say intClass.to_s Jul 19 03:33:51 ah yes parseInt Jul 19 03:34:13 yakischloba_: doesn't that convert an int to a string? Jul 19 03:34:20 yes Jul 19 03:34:22 Oh we're going the other way I forgot. Jul 19 03:34:23 :) Jul 19 03:34:26 string.to_i Jul 19 03:34:30 there. Jul 19 03:34:44 ah, that's what documentation is for :) Jul 19 03:35:04 i write myself quite a few notes because of my memory Jul 19 03:36:06 i have to remember the java at work is terrible.... so coming home to program android should be good java... that way i dont lose my mind Jul 19 03:36:41 so if I have different java files, does the 'package' declaration make sure they all get 'require'd (as we would say in ruby)? (at least in the context of android and eclipse) Jul 19 03:36:56 yakischloba_: let me caution you for a moment. Jul 19 03:37:04 jasta: shoot Jul 19 03:37:05 yakischloba_: require is import in Java Jul 19 03:37:08 do not learn a language in terms of another. it will destroy your abilities. Jul 19 03:37:19 Ok ok. Jul 19 03:37:29 Does it make sure that everything gets together? Jul 19 03:37:40 if the package declaration is at the top yes Jul 19 03:37:43 Languages are rarely designed in terms of another, and so you should not learn them that way. Jul 19 03:38:00 * yakischloba_ forgets ruby Jul 19 03:38:10 For example, in this sense, require is not import. Require is a runtime directive, import is not. Jul 19 03:38:39 each file you want in the package should have the package declaration at the top. Jul 19 03:38:44 brb switching computers Jul 19 03:39:23 Ok. So for example if I had a separate file for my data access stuff, putting the package declaration at the top would ensure that it gets put together with everything else? Jul 19 03:40:04 yakischloba_: you should go read a tutorial about Java Jul 19 03:40:10 romainguy_: Thanks ;) Jul 19 03:40:17 no seriously Jul 19 03:40:25 we can't just teach you the basics of Java right here :) Jul 19 03:40:53 I wasn't asking you to. Sorry I brought it up ;) Jul 19 03:40:58 yakischloba_: android is pretty easy once you know java basics Jul 19 03:41:23 * yakischloba_ shuts up Jul 19 03:41:30 yakischloba_: that's not what I meant :) Jul 19 03:41:35 we'd be happy to help Jul 19 03:41:43 but you'll learn faster and better with a good tutorial/book Jul 19 03:42:53 I'd ask in #java if I had a Java question. I don't know quite how that came up but it was not intentional. I wouldn't expect anyone here to help me with anything. Jul 19 03:44:08 I was just shooting the shit with michaelnovakjr. I'll keep it on topic from now on. Jul 19 03:54:01 its all good, we were just discussing java Jul 19 12:37:54 Good morning. Jul 19 13:57:31 hey Jul 19 13:57:39 has anyone been following http://git.android.com/?p=kernel.git;a=summary Jul 19 13:57:50 to check up on latest Android progress? Jul 19 14:01:49 not so much the SDK but the kernel Jul 19 15:59:43 gm Jul 19 16:55:26 Good Morning! Great day to get out on the Hobie Cat! Jul 19 16:56:04 dmoffett: howdy! Jul 19 16:56:22 Is this the real Muthu or a wanna be? Jul 19 16:56:57 I need to get a cool alias so I can be hip. Jul 19 16:57:55 yes for the poll Jul 19 18:17:43 mornin Jul 19 18:21:19 Google is going to blow the doors off of the industry and turn carriers into dumb pipes for delivering data. <- haha hopefully this will happen. :) Jul 19 18:21:23 http://androidguys.com/2008/07/19/trying-to-unring-a-bell/ Jul 19 18:27:58 Wouldn't that be nice Jul 19 18:30:42 haha the interview that was taken down is still in the Google cache Jul 19 18:30:53 http://74.125.39.104/search?q=cache:iwKsSV-Rb9cJ:androidguys.com/2008/07/14/talking-android-with-sprints-manager-of-mobile-devices/+Talking+Android+With+Sprint%E2%80%99s+Manager+of+Mobile+Devices&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=de&client=firefox-a Jul 19 18:38:42 Open access (building a device to work on a network without requiring a carrier’s consent) is not a practical reality (yet). This is not a technical limitation, it’s a business one. <- How I hate that business bullshit ah :( Jul 19 18:42:02 OpenMoko is setting a good precedent I think Jul 19 18:43:11 If someone had a stable phone running android I'd gladly pay god knows how much to avoid carrier tampering and lock-in Jul 19 18:43:36 Definetly Jul 19 18:44:05 The problem is that the US market is totally different to the european market Jul 19 18:44:23 It'll be interesting to see where they go..They're a long ways off but have had an outstanding amount of interest and support come out recently with their latest handset Jul 19 18:44:31 Do you know if it is possible in the us to get a unbranded mobile ? Jul 19 18:44:54 anno^da: unlocked you mean? Jul 19 18:45:02 You can buy 'unlocked' handsets Jul 19 18:45:25 such that you can use any carrier Jul 19 18:45:44 Hmm romainguy yeah I would say there is a difference. In Germany you have a lot of branded devices but no device is locked. (except the iPhone) Jul 19 18:46:09 what do you call branded? Jul 19 18:47:05 Having the brand of for example T-Mobile on the hardware of the device. Or having keys assigned to special functions. Jul 19 18:47:22 ah yes Jul 19 18:47:28 when you buy the phone subsidized Jul 19 18:47:41 In Germany I can go to the Noka store and have nothing of that. Jul 19 18:47:56 in France you can do the same Jul 19 18:48:00 Yeah Jul 19 18:48:01 in the US I've never seen that Jul 19 18:48:06 Really? Jul 19 18:48:13 yes Jul 19 18:48:18 You cant buy a Nokia device in the store? Jul 19 18:48:28 Sold by Nokia. :) Jul 19 18:48:30 nope Jul 19 18:48:32 nope Jul 19 18:48:34 Wow. Jul 19 18:48:39 carriers have us by the balls here Jul 19 18:48:43 :/ Jul 19 18:48:45 if you get your phone with Verizon you don't even have a SIM card Jul 19 18:48:56 Thats what I mean by difference in the US market Jul 19 18:49:01 I used to think carriers where harsh in Europe, they're nothing compared to the US Jul 19 18:49:02 compared to the european market. Jul 19 18:50:05 So you cant access the network from phones that are not "unlocked" for the network? Jul 19 18:50:07 well, let's clarify one point. Jul 19 18:50:28 by "store" you mean brick and mortar. you can still usually buy unsubsidized devices online, even from US stores. Jul 19 18:50:40 But? Jul 19 18:50:44 verizon and sprint (and us cellular) are CDMA - no sim cards, no phone portability Jul 19 18:50:51 sprint won't activate a phone without a sprint logo printed on it Jul 19 18:50:53 jasta: I've never seen unsubsidized phones in stores so far :( Jul 19 18:51:04 (and I mean, not online) Jul 19 18:51:09 romainguy: microcenter sells ubsubsidized gsm phones Jul 19 18:51:12 brick and mortar Jul 19 18:51:17 my friend buys exclusively Nokia world phones from Amazon, and activates them on T-Mobile. Jul 19 18:51:38 I need to find an inexpensive gsm modem and a cheap prepay sim card so I can make tracking beacons Jul 19 18:51:57 (Now I can understand why everyone laughed at me telling that I can buy HTC devices without a lock) Jul 19 18:52:22 Has T-Mobile SIM cards in the us ? Jul 19 18:52:45 yes, t-mobile runs gsm in the us Jul 19 18:54:46 ah Jul 19 18:55:20 Now I understand all the questions in the Openmoko mailing list :) Jul 19 18:55:41 if the us guys can use the FIC Feeruner Jul 19 18:56:28 I had just our market in mind where I buy the Freeruner in Asia put my Sim card from a discounter in it and have access to the network. Jul 19 18:56:49 they like to nickel and dime us. Jul 19 18:57:10 luckily I found a few inventive ways to screw sprint and get a great deal regardless Jul 19 18:57:34 * jasta points out that Android is unlikely to change this landscape directly. Jul 19 18:59:06 I can't wait for either an android phone on sprint, or a decent phone phone. Jul 19 18:59:26 why don't you just buy an unsubsidized cheap phone to wait for android? Jul 19 18:59:38 I can't wait for a HTC phone with Android and not from a carrierer :) Jul 19 19:02:34 well, the truth is, i have no idea what's going to happen when android launches. Jul 19 19:02:48 i dont even know that they are targetting other markets. probably will, but ...? Jul 19 19:05:07 They will target other markets than the US market something different wouldn't be that intelligent. Or why shouldnt they target othe markets? The thing is what do you mean by targeting. If HTC sells Android phones you can buy them from arround the world. Jul 19 19:07:11 anno^da: well, HTC doesn't really get that luxury depending on the deals they make with the carriers. Jul 19 19:07:25 but my point is, we just don't know ;) Jul 19 19:07:32 Yeah thats right. Jul 19 19:09:56 The thing is that you are coming from the situation on the us market where carrierer are very strong and locked down. Where carrieres sell (in the most cases) the mobile devices. Im coming from the european or german view where mobile devices are sold in every discounter without a plan from a carrier. Jul 19 19:10:40 So in the european market the carrieres are close before getting just the access point to the network. Jul 19 19:10:50 anno^da: right, but thats what i meant by markets. Jul 19 19:11:05 Yeah I understand your view or your point. Jul 19 19:15:13 And I know that HTC has to work together in the US with the carriers. But that must not keep them from selling devices with Android on their own for the european market. Thats why I dont understand why Android should just concentrate on the us market. Jul 19 19:15:44 me neither, but i dont understnad anything theyve done Jul 19 19:15:50 :) Jul 19 19:15:53 so i'm going to stop guessing :) Jul 19 19:16:03 haha its fun ;) Jul 19 19:16:15 but not all day long :) Jul 19 19:17:32 * anno^da just leaning back and listening to a great album of Dispatch Jul 19 19:33:55 How late is it in the US right now ? Jul 19 19:34:02 (in the areas you live :) ) Jul 19 19:50:32 1pm PST Jul 19 19:50:41 ah Jul 19 19:50:47 or, PDT technically Jul 19 19:50:48 GMT-7 Jul 19 19:50:51 :) Jul 19 19:55:20 HHAHA Jul 19 19:55:23 PST PDT Jul 19 19:55:36 MTFS Jul 19 19:57:10 Here's it's MITZSIRTMIMA Jul 19 19:57:56 FU U F US F PPL Jul 19 20:07:15 GAY Jul 19 21:07:17 michaelnovakjr__: you there? Jul 19 22:04:30 yawn Jul 19 23:01:50 /whois dougie187 ? Jul 19 23:01:52 err Jul 19 23:01:59 oops ;) Jul 20 01:31:13 hey Dougie187 Jul 20 01:32:19 Hey Jul 20 01:32:21 hows it going? Jul 20 01:35:46 good :) Jul 20 01:35:49 hacking on some stuffs Jul 20 01:36:25 yawnnnnnn Jul 20 01:36:56 still playing? Jul 20 01:37:09 no **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jul 20 02:59:56 2008