**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Aug 09 02:59:56 2008 Aug 09 04:12:25 http://www.moconews.net/entry/419-t-mobile-usa-to-revamp-content-strategy-in-the-fall-to-mirror-apples-ap/ Aug 09 04:14:05 say what, CheckinService.class? Aug 09 04:14:06 err Aug 09 04:14:08 oops ;) Aug 09 04:16:38 jasta: how's it goin? Aug 09 04:17:44 good Aug 09 04:17:45 don't you think the android appstore idea is great? Aug 09 04:20:41 actually, i don't Aug 09 04:20:49 "it's also unclear how free apps will be handled" Aug 09 04:21:08 muthu: its great for an entrepreneur like yourself :) Aug 09 04:21:20 its great for everyone Aug 09 04:21:37 free apps are free Aug 09 04:21:44 just like the apple model Aug 09 04:22:01 yakischloba___: everyone's an entrepreneur ;) Aug 09 04:22:25 haha Aug 09 04:23:59 muthu: did it say that? Aug 09 04:24:51 it is so infuriating when you purport opinion as fact. Aug 09 04:24:56 lol Aug 09 04:24:59 cool down.. Aug 09 04:25:09 it's not an opinion Aug 09 04:25:18 jasta: gets real mad Aug 09 04:25:29 he needs a public sdk fix ;) Aug 09 04:25:45 i'm trying to set up lighttpd Aug 09 04:25:49 it's not going my way Aug 09 04:26:05 f00f-: what's the problem? Aug 09 04:26:17 php is giving me: Aug 09 04:26:20 No input file specified. Aug 09 04:26:31 i'm spawning off php as external fastcgi proceses Aug 09 04:26:36 oh Aug 09 04:26:47 but i ned to rewrite prior to passing to fastcgi Aug 09 04:27:40 and like wtf Aug 09 04:27:45 hmm Aug 09 04:27:46 i need to restart the server for config changes?! Aug 09 04:27:53 restart the service Aug 09 04:28:12 i'm doing a killlall Aug 09 04:28:16 -HUP doesnt seem to reread config Aug 09 04:29:32 the entrepreneur talk went really well Aug 09 04:29:40 too bad i didn't put them on slides Aug 09 04:29:56 what talk? Aug 09 04:32:11 it was a local talk i gave Aug 09 04:32:29 to a group of budding entropos Aug 09 04:32:59 nice Aug 09 04:33:25 these are the things that are fun Aug 09 04:34:48 i'm stuck in coders block Aug 09 04:36:10 yeah Aug 09 04:36:13 i'm stuck in a config block Aug 09 04:36:30 lol Aug 09 04:36:53 always amused when programmers can't do things like setup web servers ;) Aug 09 04:37:07 heh Aug 09 04:37:25 i've had the most secure stable fastcgi + php + suexec + apache setup running for 5 years straight Aug 09 04:37:29 i want to try lighttpd Aug 09 04:37:33 heh Aug 09 04:37:36 take a risk! Aug 09 04:39:51 f00f-: why? Aug 09 04:39:59 why in the fuck do you use cgi? Aug 09 04:40:21 haha Aug 09 04:40:23 muthu: lower resource requyirement Aug 09 04:40:35 jasta: go read up on FastCGI scales better than mod_php and that shit Aug 09 04:41:26 i find that very hard to believe. can you give me the 5 minute version as to why? Aug 09 04:41:49 easy to horizontally scale vs mod_php Aug 09 04:42:00 X number of processes per box Aug 09 04:42:02 easily farmable Aug 09 04:42:02 Why, thought? What about FastCGI's architecture provides for this? Aug 09 04:42:06 to create a cluster Aug 09 04:42:11 though* Aug 09 04:42:13 f00f have you looked at nginx? Aug 09 04:42:37 dmoffett_: it's poor documentation/website made me not want to download it, one thing at a time :) Aug 09 04:44:36 f00f-: why the sudden scaling requirement ;) Aug 09 04:44:55 it's never too early :) Aug 09 04:45:11 We have been using nginx for quite a while. The hardest part has been keeping up with Igor's releases of nginx. He puts out a new version daily. :-) The docs are not that great for sure. Aug 09 04:45:32 plus i need a better way to do dev/staging/production releases Aug 09 04:45:54 dmoffett_: yeah i've heard good things about it Aug 09 04:48:50 wow, a daily release! Aug 09 04:49:11 what abut django? Aug 09 04:49:42 That is an exaggeration but the guy must be coding day and night. Aug 09 04:49:44 muthu: and rewrite my entire backend? :P Aug 09 04:49:58 yeah, must be fun :)) Aug 09 04:50:01 seriously, i have no UI at all, it's just an API Aug 09 04:50:09 i'm just using PHP since that's what i started with Aug 09 04:50:10 He is very prompt at help though. If you need help with nginx Igor will help you. Aug 09 04:50:31 dmoffett_: nginx is a unix flavor? Aug 09 04:50:50 Web server from Russia with Love. Aug 09 04:51:31 :D Aug 09 04:52:09 http://wiki.codemongers.com/Main Aug 09 04:55:07 guess, igor drew the illustrations ;) Aug 09 04:55:37 I don't think so since there is only one version today. Aug 09 04:56:59 why use nginx, when we have apache? Aug 09 04:58:15 I think you would consider nginx if you need a faster web server. Aug 09 04:59:00 i used to use boa way back in the day for a while Aug 09 04:59:16 before lighttpd and nginx came to be Aug 09 04:59:30 really fast for static content Aug 09 04:59:34 it'd smoke apache Aug 09 04:59:52 ok i got it working! Aug 09 04:59:55 this is kinda cool Aug 09 05:00:05 now i can have different versions of the api running seamlessly Aug 09 05:00:21 different version of your software? Aug 09 05:00:25 yes Aug 09 05:00:35 Nice Aug 09 05:00:42 why? Aug 09 05:01:05 one for ADC, one for testing, one for dev Aug 09 05:01:20 ADC one is obviously frozen Aug 09 05:01:23 anyone want to try out my solitaire game? Aug 09 05:01:24 it finally works Aug 09 05:01:33 even if the cards still look like hell Aug 09 05:02:07 i've checked out the source.. not compiled yet Aug 09 05:02:39 well svn update Aug 09 05:02:59 im at rev120 Aug 09 05:03:11 doing an update.. Aug 09 05:03:18 its buildable with maven if you have it Aug 09 05:03:24 mvn install, really simple. Aug 09 05:03:50 the card drawing code hasn't been touched since M3, except to make it build. Aug 09 05:03:58 so i need to revisit that with obviously an improved sense of how that works Aug 09 05:04:01 and make it no so ugly Aug 09 05:04:04 really, maven? Aug 09 05:04:05 and i need new images for the suits Aug 09 05:04:05 cool Aug 09 05:04:09 i copied them from aisleriot Aug 09 05:04:18 and of course, this is just Klondike. Freecell and maybe Hearts will come soon. Aug 09 05:04:22 the engine was the tricky part. Aug 09 05:04:38 i also need to fix the stack selection stuff. the game logic needs to be able to choose a more flexible way of selecting stacks Aug 09 05:04:52 for example, Freecell would need to let you arbitrarily choose some number of cards from the stack, not just the whole stack. Aug 09 05:04:57 but that isn't too much work Aug 09 05:04:57 i can just build solitaire, right? Aug 09 05:05:08 you should be able to? Aug 09 05:05:21 ok.. doing 'mvn install'.. Aug 09 05:05:35 oh Aug 09 05:05:35 (be aware that if you haven't used Maven before for Android, you'll need to do some extra steps first) Aug 09 05:05:42 exactly Aug 09 05:06:08 i forgot about that :) Aug 09 05:06:13 might be easier just to import into eclipse Aug 09 05:06:20 ok Aug 09 05:06:38 there is also one major feature missing: the game doesn't automatically move certain "win" cards for you. Aug 09 05:06:52 basically beacuse i don't know what the optimal logic is for Klondike. i need to research that or sit down and think about it for a sec. Aug 09 05:07:45 as a convenience, Solitaire games should solve themselves once you get the right cards out. but it should do so incrementally and non-destructively. for example, aces should automatically go up. and certain numbered cards should automatically go up. but only when it won't screw up your game. Aug 09 05:07:51 got some errors Aug 09 05:07:55 ? Aug 09 05:08:08 compile errors Aug 09 05:08:13 i know that, what are they? Aug 09 05:11:55 ? Aug 09 05:12:08 opening in editor.. Aug 09 05:14:23 are you sure you're at r120? Aug 09 05:14:30 yes Aug 09 05:14:37 *confused* :) Aug 09 05:14:58 Updated to revision 120. Aug 09 05:15:26 hehe Aug 09 05:22:33 jasta: the android opensource promise includes the linux kernel too.. isn't it? Aug 09 05:30:03 uhm Aug 09 05:30:26 the git repository is public, but more than that, it would be a copyright violation (and a BIG ONE) to not include the kernel source code. Aug 09 05:30:37 ok Aug 09 05:38:45 i dare them not to release the source :P Aug 09 05:38:51 that would be an interesting fight :D Aug 09 07:07:43 muthu, did u produce any slides for your tlak Aug 09 07:29:12 f00f-: it would be an easy fight. Aug 09 07:29:20 the FSF would sue them, and they would win, quickly. Aug 09 07:29:40 just as they've done with every other clear-cut violation of the GPL Aug 09 07:29:57 the GPL, as it turns out, is not so hard to enforce. Aug 09 07:30:06 where's the violation now? Aug 09 07:31:41 there isn't one, because they released the code. Aug 09 07:31:54 f00f- was just commented "what if" they hadn't. Aug 09 07:32:07 jasta: the git repository is public, but more than that, it would be a copyright violation (and a BIG ONE) to not include the kernel source code. << actually no, the GPL just asks you to provide the source code if asked Aug 09 07:32:14 and the answer to that what if a swift kcik in the arse from the FSF :) Aug 09 07:32:41 romainguy: i know that, and his question was whether it would be provided. Aug 09 07:33:10 included with the main download is irrelevant, and i didn't mean include so strictly in that sense. Aug 09 07:33:16 because even now, you don't include the source that way. Aug 09 07:34:16 good times ahead for android developers Aug 09 07:34:49 glad we have a couple of months to polish our app Aug 09 07:36:09 guess, must be more than a couple Aug 09 07:36:58 * muthu lunch Aug 09 07:38:20 muthu: did you ever get the app to compile, btw? Aug 09 07:51:06 jasta: there were 9 errors Aug 09 07:51:17 and what were they? Aug 09 07:51:27 you are using M5, right? Aug 09 07:52:11 is it not m3? Aug 09 07:52:24 no, it is m5. Aug 09 07:52:32 oh oh Aug 09 07:52:40 why would it be for m3? Aug 09 07:52:53 that's what you said Aug 09 07:53:17 let me try again Aug 09 07:53:27 i said i wrote this way back for m3 originally Aug 09 07:53:34 i updated and finished it just last week Aug 09 07:53:39 in m3? Aug 09 07:53:51 i updated it to M5, of course. Aug 09 07:53:57 ha! Aug 09 07:54:19 was trying to fix errors.. but my ide froze and died Aug 09 07:54:25 now trying again.. Aug 09 08:03:46 romainguy: you there? Aug 09 08:03:51 yeah Aug 09 08:05:02 ok.. compile good Aug 09 08:05:05 running.. Aug 09 08:05:16 i am still a little fuzzy on the onFreeze/onPause/onStop nuances. Aug 09 08:05:30 for my solitaire game, what would be the ideal way to persist game state as the user navigates away? Aug 09 08:05:46 i don't think it makes sense to persist on disk, if the phone is shut off for example, but persisting while it remains running is a priority. Aug 09 08:06:01 just use a Bundle then Aug 09 08:06:02 i had thought onFreeze would be the place to do that. saving the state each time in the proided bundle. Aug 09 08:06:11 but it seems not to be handed back to my app on onCreate()? Aug 09 08:06:31 it should Aug 09 08:07:15 is there some special trick? in onFreeze, i'm just calling icicle.putString("test", "test"); Aug 09 08:07:23 that's all you have to do Aug 09 08:08:33 it definitely doesn't come back. it's null each time. Aug 09 08:08:40 all i'm doing is opening my activity, then pressing escape to back out of it. Aug 09 08:08:52 how do you force an onCreate? Aug 09 08:08:53 then click on the icon in the launcher again, and it gets a clean slate and onCreate called all over again Aug 09 08:09:14 if i go into the activity then press home instead, and go back, it does not call onCreate again Aug 09 08:09:40 right, your activity just got resumed Aug 09 08:09:48 it's weird that by pressing back you go through onCreate Aug 09 08:09:56 are you calling finish() somewhere? Aug 09 08:10:01 no, definitely not. Aug 09 08:10:21 are you using special modes in the manifest? Aug 09 08:10:25 i believe i had experienced this bug once before, where i told you that my listactivity scroll position was not preserved. Aug 09 08:10:38 it was probably because onCreate was firing again, and with a null icicle. Aug 09 08:10:44 no, the manifest is quite plain. Aug 09 08:10:59 anyway Aug 09 08:11:01 basically what eclipse generated Aug 09 08:11:08 the best way to test that code then is to rotate the screen Aug 09 08:11:13 you'll get an onCreate with your bundle Aug 09 08:11:45 that segfaulted my emulator Aug 09 08:11:51 Oo Aug 09 08:11:55 wow... go women's volleyball Aug 09 08:12:16 romainguy: still, is this possibly a bug? Aug 09 08:12:34 1. your activity should not die on back, check the logs Aug 09 08:12:42 2. the emulator should not segfault on screen rotate Aug 09 08:12:52 well ok ;) Aug 09 08:12:52 I can definitely guarantee that these two bugs do not exist post M5 though :( Aug 09 08:13:03 i will read the logcat, hang on Aug 09 08:13:20 when i press back, all i see is: Aug 09 08:13:26 D/ActivityManager( 523): Resuming: HistoryRecord{401fc378 {com.google.android.home/com.google.android.home.NewHome}} Aug 09 08:13:29 I/ActivityManager( 523): Removing activity: Intent { action=android.intent.action.MAIN launchFlags=4 comp={org.devtcg.games.solitaire/org.devtcg.games.solitaire.game.Klondike} } Aug 09 08:13:55 do you think next sdk will be the final release ? Aug 09 08:14:00 when i run it again, icicle is null. Aug 09 08:14:05 I can't tell you NiZoX Aug 09 08:14:15 jasta: then something really bad happened Aug 09 08:14:25 romainguy_: as i said, this app is quite trivial Aug 09 08:14:39 the layout does utilize a couple of custom views, but they're not dabbling in anything too wild. Aug 09 08:15:04 i recall checking "Immediately destroy activities" in the dev tools made this issue go away Aug 09 08:15:11 by enforcing the behaviour that is accidentally caused otherwise Aug 09 08:15:35 nope, that's not true either. still sends a null icicle Aug 09 08:15:42 well that's cute. Aug 09 08:15:43 HTC seems to be ready to bring out an android device.. Aug 09 08:16:13 nice!! Aug 09 08:16:17 solitaire, finally! Aug 09 08:16:32 muthu: like i said, lots of rough edges. i only mention it now because the game logic is finally complete. Aug 09 08:16:41 i did just commit a few small changes that fix the empty stacks rendering wrong Aug 09 08:17:08 muthu: also, i actually don't even like Klondike. so i'm more excited to implement Freecell next :) Aug 09 08:17:24 cool Aug 09 08:17:25 and of course some simple UI to control new games, undo, etc. Aug 09 08:17:31 high scores maybe Aug 09 08:17:35 you can sell a lot of games Aug 09 08:17:38 just dabbling Aug 09 08:17:40 when the store is ready ;) Aug 09 08:18:10 isn't the point of android to break away from that all that disgraceful pandering? Aug 09 08:18:29 like $10 games that took someone maybe a day or two to write Aug 09 08:18:47 its not how long it took you to write Aug 09 08:19:22 i certainly hope we are able to change mindsets like yours moving forward. Aug 09 08:19:30 hehe Aug 09 08:19:35 hoho Aug 09 08:19:36 haha Aug 09 08:20:00 jasta: the point of android is not to make people stop selling apps :) Aug 09 08:20:03 romainguy_: hmm, well, it's a little hard to believe that this is simply just a bug wherein onFreeze is rendered useless. Aug 09 08:20:20 anything more i can try? Aug 09 08:20:30 romainguy_: that isn't what i said. Aug 09 08:20:32 well if your emulator segaults on screen rotate, no Aug 09 08:21:07 sigh. Aug 09 08:21:11 piece of crap ;) Aug 09 08:21:32 i will save game state to a flat file then, i suppose. Aug 09 08:22:18 muthu: i am hoping there will be enough hobbyist/tinker types that can flood the community with useful little applications for free, and with source code included. Aug 09 08:22:29 oh yeah Aug 09 08:22:32 for sure Aug 09 08:22:32 so that attempts to sell solitaire games, and ssh clients, etc will fail miserably. Aug 09 08:22:39 not really Aug 09 08:23:03 it can coexist Aug 09 08:23:09 i hope android to have an ecosystem much closer to Linux, where trivial applications have absolutely no marketability. Aug 09 08:23:39 that would happen.. Aug 09 08:23:46 and i attribute that largely to the fact that if it was easy to do, some hobbyist geek would have already done it a long time ago. Aug 09 08:23:49 the users would have a lot of options Aug 09 08:24:26 before the free thing arrives.. whover gets on the appstore Aug 09 08:24:43 Android being such a powerful, free dev environment lends itself well to fostering such a community. Aug 09 08:25:18 Generally appealing to hobbyists, that is. Aug 09 08:25:28 agree Aug 09 08:25:54 android is the "new php" for mobile Aug 09 08:26:13 It's very difficult to argue that if such a community exists, trivial non-free apps will still have a place. They simply won't. Aug 09 08:26:28 not necessarily Aug 09 08:26:42 Are you kidding? You're comparing Android to PHP? Aug 09 08:26:42 ew Aug 09 08:26:51 don't compare android to PHP! Aug 09 08:26:51 if the paying versions bring more quality Aug 09 08:26:55 PHP is engineering rot. It wasn't designed, it just congealed in a gutter somewhere. Aug 09 08:27:11 Linux has tons of free simple apps... but tons of *crappy* free simple apps Aug 09 08:27:22 romainguy_: That would make it non-trivial, by definition. Aug 09 08:27:26 no Aug 09 08:27:45 many trivial apps with crappy UIs would still be trivial with an elegant UI Aug 09 08:27:55 davidw: isn't it easy to write android apps? Aug 09 08:27:57 and I'd happily pay a couple of bucks for something that doesn't make my eyes bleed :) Aug 09 08:28:16 romainguy_: Of course, the open source app could just rip off the UI like we've always done :) Aug 09 08:28:27 if only... Aug 09 08:28:37 or you could try the Sicily business model: pay me a couple bucks or I'll make your eyes bleed Aug 09 08:29:29 romainguy_: I doubt very much that such a reality will exist, however. Aug 09 08:29:52 Where there will be $10 solitaire games coexisting with free, open source ones. Aug 09 08:30:02 I'm not talking about $10 Aug 09 08:30:04 I just don't see it as a possibility, given the nature of both models. Aug 09 08:30:06 I'm talking about $1.99 Aug 09 08:30:12 I'd be really sad if Android ended up like Linux, with mostly crappy UIs Aug 09 08:30:15 And currently, the mobile industry has $10 solitaire games. *CRAPPY* ones, at that. Aug 09 08:30:29 This is just a small example. The market is flooded with terrible non-free apps. Aug 09 08:30:34 Because it's a cheap, easy way to make money. Aug 09 08:30:46 I don't think that model will translate well to Android. Aug 09 08:30:46 0.99 Aug 09 08:30:48 well the iPhone is showing that people are selling trivial apps with good UIs for 1 or 2 dollars Aug 09 08:31:01 Simply because Android can attract hobbyists, and hobbyists can flood the market with plenty of crappy free versions :) Aug 09 08:31:25 I'm not saying that non-free apps are not crappy Aug 09 08:31:30 romainguy_: The key difference is community, as I said before. It is the sorts of folks attracted to the platform that make all the difference. Aug 09 08:31:38 I'm saying that from my experience free apps are rarely not crappy :)) Aug 09 08:31:50 The iPhone doesn't have them. Windows Mobile doesn't have them. Symbian doesn't have them. No mobile platform has htem. Aug 09 08:31:55 jasta: ok then I don't want a Linux-like community :)) Aug 09 08:31:57 The open source community simply has not "Gone There". Aug 09 08:32:11 I believe that they will come here, to Android. Aug 09 08:32:23 (in the sense of a community that produces tons of ugly, hard to use apps) Aug 09 08:33:11 Do realize that I am talking about truly the most bottom-rung, disgraceful displays of capitalism that you can find. That is the sort of scum that lurks around the current mobile industry. Aug 09 08:33:23 For fucks sake I cannot find a single free game worth playing for my phone. Aug 09 08:33:41 Or a free SSH client, or VNC, or IRC, or messaging app. Aug 09 08:33:43 Nothing. Aug 09 08:33:59 Even the non-free ones are pathetic. As little work as could be put into the app is where the developer stopped. Aug 09 08:34:42 so you have a lot of market to tap into Aug 09 08:34:49 Market to destroy, muthu. Aug 09 08:34:52 Not tap into. Aug 09 08:34:54 I think the fact that android has attracted a fair number of people like me and jasta is a good indication of where the community may go Aug 09 08:34:57 or one portion of it Aug 09 08:35:23 android will rule the mobile world Aug 09 08:35:42 davidw captured what I was trying to say. It's all about who is there that will change the community, the market, everything. Aug 09 08:35:56 And so far, "my" type has avoided the mobile arena. Android is an entry point. Aug 09 08:35:59 Or so I hope. Aug 09 08:36:08 jasta, there is some open source in j2me Aug 09 08:36:14 not tons, but it does exist Aug 09 08:36:21 oh sure, there's some everywhere. Even Windows Mobile has some open source stuff. Aug 09 08:36:25 but nothing is as easy as android Aug 09 08:36:36 But it's a very small community. It's a throwback to 1985, not 2008. Aug 09 08:36:38 muthu, j2me's not that hard - it's just limited Aug 09 08:36:47 what java did to enterprise Aug 09 08:36:51 android will do for mobile Aug 09 08:37:07 mmmmmm Aug 09 08:37:12 what's that mean? Aug 09 08:37:17 davidw: Yeah, I don't know what the hell he's talking about. Aug 09 08:37:33 its already happening Aug 09 08:38:01 muthu reminds me of the father character in Little Miss Sunshine. Aug 09 08:38:31 jasta: we are saying the same thing Aug 09 08:38:37 in our own ways of course! Aug 09 08:38:40 I assure you muthu, we never say the same thing. Aug 09 08:38:46 lol Aug 09 08:38:50 I almost categorically disagree with you. Aug 09 08:38:53 haha Aug 09 08:39:23 jasta is the lifeline of this channel :) Aug 09 08:40:43 davidw: to your comment about J2ME though, the open source communities found in other mobile spaces (like windows mobile, j2me, etc) remind me of the open source community you find on Windows itself. Aug 09 08:41:06 it's fledgling, weak. it mostly consists of univerity types who have only passing interest in software development anyway. Aug 09 08:41:33 it takes forever for even simple projects to get ported because there's just no one that cares to do so. whereas those same projects flourish on other platforms, namely Linux. Aug 09 08:42:18 Wireshark exists on Windows these days, but I have not yet met a Windows sysadmin or networking guy that had even heard of it. Aug 09 08:42:47 so what's your prediction? Aug 09 08:42:50 Yet I can't think of a single user of any major UNIX with even a passing interest in networking that hasn't at least heard of it. Aug 09 08:43:14 yesterday went to a pub with a city view Aug 09 08:43:21 wonderful Aug 09 08:43:36 they have this thing called 'fire and ice' Aug 09 08:43:48 muthu: My prediction is that, as romain fears, the open source community will move in and flood the "market" with quite a lot of crummy open source apps, and as it's always done, several stand-out gems that speak volumes about what the community is capable of. Aug 09 08:44:02 rendering the "low-hanging fruit" that has been so attractive to commercial developers completely unattainable. Aug 09 08:44:22 only significant, non-trivial apps which the open source community either ignores, or fails to do well, will be possible in the market. Aug 09 08:44:43 while the former will still exist, surely, it will not be such an easy game to play as it has been in the past. Aug 09 08:44:46 that's my prediction. Aug 09 08:45:08 can you say that in a few words? Aug 09 08:45:33 sure, sacrificing the nuance of what i'm trying to sya. but why would i? Aug 09 08:45:45 so you can quote me? i think not. Aug 09 08:45:54 lol Aug 09 08:46:04 jasta: have you had this fire and ice Aug 09 08:46:15 a green chilly is sliced and dropped in vodka Aug 09 08:47:16 that sounds gross. i avoid vodka anyway. Aug 09 08:47:27 its a real spice drink Aug 09 08:47:33 it's a miserable excuse for liquor. Aug 09 08:47:59 even the Russians, who invented it, regard it as cheap and common. Aug 09 08:48:13 it was meant to be cheap and common Aug 09 08:48:27 yeah, exactly. and it's gross as a result. Aug 09 08:48:27 ;) Aug 09 08:48:41 haha Aug 09 08:48:53 i know you are a jameson guy Aug 09 08:48:59 actually, i'm not. Aug 09 08:49:12 so what you drink? Aug 09 08:49:29 my favorite Irish whiskey is Bushmills, distilled in Northern Ireland. Aug 09 08:49:57 but I also like Scotch. I typically drink Glenlivet. Aug 09 08:50:14 but it certainly isn't the best, just the best that i can afford ;) Aug 09 08:50:38 is the Glen series the best? Aug 09 08:51:00 huh? Aug 09 08:51:33 What Glen series? Aug 09 08:52:54 There are lots of towns in Scotland that start with Glen. It's a geographic feature. Aug 09 08:53:11 oh.. its not the same brand? Aug 09 08:53:24 The names of Scotch whiskies (and Irish whiskeys too sometimes) usually come from the small town that invented it. Aug 09 08:53:40 And since lots of towns start with Glen in Scotland, there appears to be a pattern there where there isn't one. Aug 09 08:54:31 ok Aug 09 08:54:44 i thought it was from the same manufacturer Aug 09 08:55:30 Whiskey is a deep and nuanced topic. ;) Aug 09 08:55:47 and you are the whiskey guru ;) Aug 09 08:56:07 I hope to get my first hand lesson next month when I suspect I will be drunk under the table by some real Irishmen :) Aug 09 08:56:28 oh yeah Aug 09 08:56:41 how many days? Aug 09 08:56:46 I leave on the 4th Aug 09 08:56:51 Be there 16 days Aug 09 08:56:56 perfect Aug 09 08:57:17