**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 13 02:59:57 2008 Aug 13 03:36:46 anyone recommend a lightweight graph generator, just for simple line graphs? Aug 13 03:37:16 i take it you don't mean gnuplot? :) Aug 13 03:37:42 i take it you mean gnuplot is heavy ;) Aug 13 03:37:58 gnuplot :) Aug 13 03:38:00 never used it actually. only done graphs in ruby before. Aug 13 03:38:02 that name sounds free Aug 13 03:39:01 yakischloba: gnuplot is a good choice. it's very easy to work with, and as light as you're going to get without being crap. Aug 13 03:39:18 spend an hour learning how to interact with it. and then be glad you did. Aug 13 03:39:23 wait, I'm sorry. I meant to be used with android. Aug 13 03:39:33 oh, lord no :) Aug 13 03:39:43 nevermind hehe Aug 13 03:39:52 spaced that minor detail ;) Aug 13 03:41:28 no suggestion then? Aug 13 03:41:56 not that i can think of. you will likely have to roll your own. Aug 13 03:42:07 eek. Aug 13 03:42:19 Java on mobile devices is somewhat at odds. You want your code to be as slim as possible. Aug 13 03:42:33 yeah. Aug 13 03:42:36 Which sometimes means avoiding existing reusable code Aug 13 03:42:50 I would google for Java libraries (assuming you need it to be in Java0. Aug 13 03:43:01 if you find none lightweight, Google harder. if you still find none, write a crappy one :) Aug 13 03:44:08 sounds like quite a learning experience. Aug 13 03:48:45 sounds like it might be easier to submit my data and retrieve a graph over http. Aug 13 03:49:18 probably would be, but then you must consider whether or not your user logically expects your app to work without the network. Aug 13 03:49:54 I intend for there to be a server-side component anyways Aug 13 03:50:10 you can draw a simple graph yourself Aug 13 03:50:12 please just consider the implication. Aug 13 03:50:22 using the android graphics Aug 13 03:50:30 i think a lot of android users will be frustrated by the assumptions developers make. Aug 13 03:51:10 gotta start somewhere. I don't believe its going to be perfect, I'm positive I'll re-write it at least 3 times, and I don't expect anyone to like it. (yet) Aug 13 03:51:52 jfreechart is one option Aug 13 03:52:02 Eventually I'd love it if people used my app but for now its just learning. Aug 13 03:52:32 gambler: awesome thanks for that link Aug 13 03:52:39 muthu: do you think its light enough to use on android?.. Aug 13 03:52:51 it looks like its pretty flexible, but only talks about using incoming DCOP, and not really sending Aug 13 03:53:02 yakischloba: well if you don't care that your app sucks, then anything's light enough. Aug 13 03:53:03 of course, it could always use the command-line dcop to send, but thats an extra step Aug 13 03:53:18 yakischloba: do your own Aug 13 03:53:31 jasta: please don't criticize for where I'm at :( Aug 13 03:53:45 its very simple to do some graphs using the built in graphics stuff Aug 13 03:54:03 muthu: ok. thanks Aug 13 03:54:06 jfreechart is a bit heavy Aug 13 03:54:13 it does all fancy things Aug 13 03:54:24 yakischloba: i just meant that if your expectations are so low, it doesn't matter what you decide :) Aug 13 03:55:14 all my maps related classes are failing to load in dalvik.. any ideas? Aug 13 03:55:52 muthu: if you expect help, you should publish something we can use. Aug 13 03:55:56 jasta: I want the best solution within the scope of my abilities. I'll write my own graph thing then. I can't be a perfectionist about programming, UI design and usability while I'm in the elementary learning stages of all 3. Aug 13 03:56:34 jasta: publish what? Aug 13 03:56:40 yakischloba: if you're trying to just prototype your idea, it isn't necessarily a bad idea to pick some heavy java lib that's easy to work with and replace that piece of your design later. just don't nail the thing in place. Aug 13 03:56:49 muthu: well, how about some relevant log information? Aug 13 04:01:23 it just says fail to load Aug 13 04:01:29 not much details there Aug 13 04:01:34 i don't believe that. Aug 13 04:01:53 what is "it"? Aug 13 04:02:55 jasta: what would be the reasons for a class failing to load in dalvik? Aug 13 04:08:50 i'm sure there are lots. please just answer my question if you want help. Aug 13 04:09:19 i don't have enough info there.. its weird Aug 13 04:10:03 again, where is "there"? Aug 13 04:10:33 the logcat says "failed to load class".. Aug 13 04:10:36 muthu is being a weirdo. Aug 13 04:11:44 i don't believe that the logcat merely says "failed to load class". please stop hiding information. Aug 13 04:14:19 aww place nice jasta :P Aug 13 06:34:47 tomgibara: you there? Aug 13 06:39:12 tomgibara: well anyway, i have some results. i wouldn't call the difference negligible, although i don't think it would be prohitively slow for the MediaPlayer to implement a user-supplied stream. Aug 13 06:41:14 i haven't tested on the vogue yet, though. Aug 13 06:43:50 have they given out these top 10 prizes yet? Aug 13 06:46:52 no Aug 13 08:29:34 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WCyceYJRUtE is that Dream? :) can hardly wait.. Aug 13 08:33:55 good monring guys Aug 13 08:33:59 morning Aug 13 08:34:00 :) Aug 13 08:34:27 morning morning Aug 13 08:37:17 jasta: What were the results of your benchmark? Aug 13 08:39:35 ignore that, didn't notice the pm Aug 13 08:45:05 Hai-Fai: i dont think its the final one by far Aug 13 08:45:16 looks too much like the other demo handsets weve seen Aug 13 08:58:26 Can anyone confirm Android phone appearance in Germany? Got some infos, that it will happen in some weeks at least as preview :) Aug 13 08:58:51 who's previewing it? Aug 13 08:59:11 someone will get a preview, no names ;) Aug 13 08:59:20 who's showing it? Aug 13 08:59:28 is it htc? Aug 13 09:00:09 Not much infos yet Aug 13 09:00:30 But the source is trustworthy Aug 13 09:00:56 nothing outside us.. is my guess Aug 13 09:04:40 spykid: It I would say yes now the next rumours would be ready for take off. ;) Aug 13 09:05:11 IF Aug 13 09:05:37 its not previewing anywhere Aug 13 09:06:44 I'm quite cool with rumors, but this is quite sure - at least some OHA Member is previewing it to some selected persons/companies - for Germany T-Mobile would be obvious ;) Aug 13 09:07:21 tmobile and htc can preview it within their companies.. Aug 13 09:07:46 it's not within Aug 13 09:08:24 hope the device comes out fast Aug 13 09:08:45 well it would be cool but I dont believe anything any more untill I get something official :D Aug 13 09:09:00 they should release asap a device Aug 13 09:09:07 anno^da_: So do I ;) Aug 13 09:09:10 that the iphone gets a goof competitor Aug 13 09:09:13 d Aug 13 09:09:44 and also release it for the global market Aug 13 09:09:47 yes Aug 13 09:09:53 anno^da_: ...and I was asking for a second source :D Aug 13 09:10:04 i hope they dont make the same stupid release politics as apple do Aug 13 09:10:27 spykid: Yeah I know. :D I'm confirming now that there will be a preview. ;) Aug 13 09:12:26 anno^da: ...and now I'm searching for a third and maybe a fourth one outside of the IRC :D Aug 13 09:12:56 ;) Aug 13 09:13:08 Well alex is not here :P he could confirm as well Aug 13 09:13:16 or jasta will confirm too :D Aug 13 09:15:03 spykid, ask moriddl Aug 13 09:15:08 ;) Aug 13 09:16:54 hmm, is there a way to "bundle" a subactivity to the main activity, so when i press back button ill "close" the main app and not only the sub activity? Aug 13 09:17:07 or do i need to use a dialog instead of a subactivity. Aug 13 09:18:21 cutmasta: I expect no one from Google itself to comment as they said it's up to their partners to make announcements Aug 13 09:18:47 spykid, yap Aug 13 09:19:01 sounds reasonable Aug 13 09:27:44 tric: Just get the main activity to finish when it observes that the sub activity has finished Aug 13 09:34:15 What is the right Media Content Provider (Photos and Video). On http://code.google.com/android/toolbox/apis/media.html it says "Video.Media...." on http://code.google.com/android/devel/data/contentproviders.html#addingrecord it says "Media.Images...". Aug 13 09:37:34 tomgi: hmm, true, thanks Aug 13 09:38:42 http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/provider/package-summary.html <- Here I cant find the Media Provider. But I would like to take the right one and not storing my media files just in my own database or plain file. Aug 13 10:01:04 got it Aug 13 10:01:49 it is Images.Media ... (replace Images by the media type you want to store) Oh I likte wrong docs :D Aug 13 10:30:35 Whats wrong about that: http://rafb.net/p/I2ykrg30.html . I cant get the base URI for storing images. :/ Aug 13 10:43:53 try using the URI directly Aug 13 10:52:21 I've tried that it fails all the time. Aug 13 10:52:31 I will do it now without the ContentProvider Aug 13 10:52:39 and switch to it with a new SDK Aug 13 10:52:56 Reading through the groups there isnt a solution for that problem Aug 13 10:53:22 all the examples given by google fail as well. (that I can access through the docs or in the groups) Aug 13 10:53:51 Perhaps romainguy can say something about it Aug 13 10:58:11 we need an Android Developers Guide from goog Aug 13 10:58:56 :-) Aug 13 10:59:42 the problem is that the examples in the docs are not working and thats pretty annoying. Especially for beginners. :-) Aug 13 11:54:35 /j #nouveau Aug 13 13:12:43 reading through this rumoured TMO blog is pretty funny Aug 13 13:14:02 "From what I'm hearing there is no video though...wtf guys? No video and a 3 MP camera?" <- haha well too funny. Aug 13 13:14:37 no video? Aug 13 13:14:39 "I meant the phone doesn't take video with the camera. I'm sure it will play and stream video though" <- ahahaha Aug 13 13:15:15 even with the sdk you can do video. This site seems to be veeeery trust worthy :D Aug 13 13:16:37 not sure what;s coming for 1.0 Aug 13 13:18:27 well even the smallest phones do video recording ;) Aug 13 13:20:22 anno^da: They are trustworthy, but not too techsavy and also there are some guys in the who have absolutely no glue ;) Aug 13 13:20:51 only oha knows! Aug 13 13:21:12 spykid thats the problem Aug 13 13:21:15 not tech savy :) Aug 13 13:21:49 T-Mobile knows... Aug 13 13:22:44 oh yeah Aug 13 13:22:45 tmonews is a good indicator Aug 13 13:23:06 hope its all opened up soon Aug 13 13:23:45 anyone know when's the device launch? Aug 13 13:23:46 Yeah we'll see soon ;) Aug 13 13:24:00 October if the sources are right Aug 13 13:24:17 ok Aug 13 13:26:28 next year will be exciting times to be working on android Aug 13 13:27:03 if android really catches on.. Aug 13 13:27:22 w$$t! Aug 13 13:31:18 I dont really care about the devices the most importing thing will be how open the system will really be. Aug 13 13:31:56 its a combination of all these things Aug 13 13:32:39 so I have to concentrate on the next olympic final :P Aug 13 13:33:38 what's that? Aug 13 13:34:01 an well I dont know how it is called in english. Aug 13 13:34:11 fencing finals :) Aug 13 13:34:30 really, you are good at it? Aug 13 13:34:42 lol Aug 13 13:34:48 lol no :P I have to concentrate on the tv Aug 13 13:34:51 :P Aug 13 13:34:55 haha Aug 13 13:35:27 But well that would be cool ;). I'm writting with you from my android pre release device directly from the olympics. Aug 13 13:35:42 lol Aug 13 13:35:50 it would be a reality in london ;) Aug 13 13:35:56 it will be Aug 13 13:36:07 and then we wont have censored internet access Aug 13 13:36:16 and no carriers Aug 13 13:36:22 well yeah Aug 13 13:50:51 is Zattoo also available in the us ? (free P2P IP TV) Aug 13 13:55:02 US dont have enough bandwidth Aug 13 14:03:58 anno^da: Not if you try to use it with an US ip Aug 13 14:12:03 Yeah ok so there are no channels available in the us. Aug 13 14:28:12 anno^da: If you use something like a proxy or vpn it might work Aug 13 14:29:05 Well haha no I dont want to use it. I was just interested if the service is also available in the us. Aug 13 14:39:24 morning Aug 13 15:02:36 morning Aug 13 15:09:49 morning morning Aug 13 15:15:12 yawn :) Aug 13 15:22:36 tell me about it. i layed in bed for half an hour or so after my alarm went off this morning. body did not want to rise. Aug 13 16:39:55 good evening Aug 13 16:39:56 guys Aug 13 16:39:57 :) Aug 13 16:40:50 good morning :) Aug 13 16:41:02 :) Aug 13 16:41:12 haha well how late is it in the us ? Aug 13 16:41:41 almost 1:00 PM on the east coast Aug 13 16:41:51 9:40 on the west coast Aug 13 16:42:01 ah :) ok here in Germany it is 7 pm :) Aug 13 16:42:05 morning :D haha Aug 13 16:44:44 romainguy: do you know sth about the media content providers in m5 ? (for images video etc) Should they work or are they known to not work? (an according thread: http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/68a5a53f21bdbb10# ) Aug 13 16:45:43 I have no idea Aug 13 16:46:05 unfortunately M5 is so far away from what we use now that it's a bit difficult to say what was working or not back then :( Aug 13 16:46:13 ok no problem then I'm using the normal file saving. Aug 13 16:46:20 file saving? Aug 13 16:46:28 save it to a normal file :) Aug 13 16:47:30 But I can imagine that it is difficult for you to say sth about that very old version. Aug 13 16:47:42 I wish I could help more :) Aug 13 16:48:11 there are periods during which builds that are 2 or 3 days old are very different already :) Aug 13 16:48:14 haha yeah but no problem. Tell us the release date for the new SDK and everything is fine. *laughing* Aug 13 16:48:23 lol Aug 13 16:48:27 ;) Aug 13 16:48:43 I may or may not know Aug 13 16:48:48 :D Aug 13 16:48:50 but whether I know or not, I won't tell :) Aug 13 16:49:02 I don't want to spoil the surprise Aug 13 16:49:03 Well yeah thats what I knew. Aug 13 16:49:11 But it was worth a try. Aug 13 16:49:20 So it will be tomorrow. :) Aug 13 16:49:41 Or with the pre release of the HTC dream in september. Aug 13 16:50:03 Haha, you've been reading too many rumors on the web :p Aug 13 16:50:23 But it must be fun for you hearing all the rumours and knowing it better. Aug 13 16:50:37 :) Aug 13 16:50:52 Haha yeah reading for sure but not really believing. :-) Aug 13 16:50:57 in a way it's fun Aug 13 16:51:01 but it's also scary Aug 13 16:51:12 because if the other news are of the same quality... Aug 13 16:51:17 I don't expect you google employees to weigh in on this issue, but it does make me worry a little if T-mobile launches a phone in Sept. Aug 13 16:51:22 the other news ? Aug 13 16:51:30 wrong news ? Aug 13 16:51:33 what's impressive is that when *one* web site talks about a rumor with no source, every web site in the world quotes that web site Aug 13 16:51:40 there won't be very many apps for it compared to the likes of the iPhone or winMo Aug 13 16:51:55 tethridge: iPhone came out with 0 apps Aug 13 16:52:01 Thats right. Aug 13 16:52:09 It took one year for the app store ;) Aug 13 16:52:21 and the 3G phone Aug 13 16:52:46 and even that is not capaple of the easiest things. (but no bashing I do like it) Aug 13 16:52:49 well, I've been waiting a year already. I don't want to wait another year Aug 13 16:52:53 :-) Aug 13 16:53:04 just remember that Android is NOT one product Aug 13 16:53:10 it's a platform and an OS Aug 13 16:53:34 romainguy: but thats what happens when no offical information is offered. Aug 13 16:53:47 Everey news site writes about every littler rumour. Aug 13 16:53:48 anno^da: except that "journalists" should know better Aug 13 16:53:54 Thats right. Aug 13 16:54:14 I worked as a tech journalist for years and this kind of quality just disgusts me Aug 13 16:54:21 these people are not professionnal Aug 13 16:54:27 Well thats something I'm with you. Aug 13 16:54:33 it's impressive to see how they copy/paste each other Aug 13 16:54:45 they don't even try to rewrite the news Aug 13 16:54:47 :(( Aug 13 16:54:50 Yeah it is. When you look at the Google News for Android :D Aug 13 16:54:54 "journalists" on TV news aren't professional anymore...how can you expect bloggers to be Aug 13 16:55:05 it's not just bloggers Aug 13 16:55:07 10 topics and every topic is the same. Aug 13 16:55:16 it's also tech news site Aug 13 16:55:20 or even more generic sites Aug 13 16:55:27 for instance Aug 13 16:55:33 From my point of view a lot of tv stations are less professionel than some bloggers. Aug 13 16:55:33 monday, android was delayed till 2009 Aug 13 16:55:38 well, at least cnet spelled "interasting" correctly when they copied and pasted. Aug 13 16:55:41 and tuesday, Android will be released in september Aug 13 16:56:13 so it wasn't a literal copy and paste. :-) Aug 13 16:56:33 probably was but CNET must have editors :) Aug 13 16:57:03 romainguy__: :) Aug 13 16:57:56 :D Aug 13 16:58:08 But it is fun to see that. Normal people wont see that Aug 13 16:58:26 because they only know the news from their favourite news site. Aug 13 16:58:27 yesterday I happened to look at pandora for mobile devices Aug 13 16:58:35 google/t-mobile could put the rumors to rest anytime they want Aug 13 16:58:42 (pandora :( not available anymore in Germany :((( ) Aug 13 16:58:54 they have a free version for the iPhone, but for my piece of crap Samsung they want me to pay a monthly fee. Aug 13 16:59:00 go figure Aug 13 16:59:01 lol Aug 13 17:03:56 have you guys seen any mockups of how android will handle user entry? I'm curious if it will do something similar to the iPhone for stuff like combo boxes and the keyboard (with predictive typing). Aug 13 17:04:15 all I've seen is the keyboard in the sdk Aug 13 17:05:55 well android is capable of doing it in different ways Aug 13 17:06:32 but what in detail we will see. In the future there will be a lot of new methods once the system is open. Aug 13 17:06:58 When you look at Openmoko there are more than 10 ideas for doing user input without a real keyboard Aug 13 17:07:23 I do like the "magnified" combo boxes from the iphone Aug 13 17:08:02 I don't really want a dedicated keyboard either, so I hope the software keyboard is pretty good Aug 13 17:08:26 anno^da, do you have a link to those? Aug 13 17:08:50 I think I'd like a dedicated keyboard on the XPERIA Aug 13 17:09:07 ah I have to search for them they are covered in the openmoko wiki Aug 13 17:11:47 zhobbs, what is xperia? Aug 13 17:13:42 http://wiki.openmoko.org/ <- I have to eat now. But I will search the unknown methods later on. Some E17 (windows manager for linux) guys tried very funny methods of user input. Aug 13 17:14:23 But I dont know if they are covered in the wiki. Aug 13 17:14:39 ok Aug 13 17:15:36 ah Aug 13 17:15:37 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Text_Input Aug 13 17:15:40 Here it is :) Aug 13 17:15:54 A lot of methods :D Aug 13 17:15:57 that helps. There is a lot of information on that site Aug 13 17:16:38 definetly Aug 13 17:16:45 and why not port some methods to android Aug 13 17:16:53 even for the non keyboard devices Aug 13 17:18:28 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFf9Mw3nlsY <- I've tested this one on the pc and it works really well with a bit of training Aug 13 17:18:33 tethridge: http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/10/sonyericsson-xperia-x1-qwerty-with-windows-mobile/ Aug 13 17:19:11 I really like the design of the Xperia Aug 13 17:19:16 (hardware design) Aug 13 17:19:57 this input method is kinda cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBOyGp25sSg Aug 13 17:20:28 looks kinda hard though Aug 13 17:21:00 yeah Aug 13 17:22:33 zhobbs, that does look slick Aug 13 17:23:05 I'm just thinking about how much thinner it could be without the keyboard. I'll have to see how I like the phones when I can get my hands on them. Aug 13 17:24:53 zhobbs_: when are you guys expected to know the judging results? Aug 13 17:26:34 jasta: not sure Aug 13 17:26:46 saw some people saying they haven't been getting hit yet Aug 13 17:26:49 tethridge: keyboards don't add much more depth than the physical size of the buttons themselves. the circuitry involved is very, very simple. Aug 13 17:27:17 the hardest partof the design is that the whole shell must be able to separate, so there's double the plastic. Aug 13 17:27:30 jasta, interesting Aug 13 17:28:33 and also they have to design the layout differently since they can't have anything thicker than each of the halves Aug 13 17:28:44 which is probably their biggest challenge making a shell that can split to reveal a keyboard Aug 13 17:29:08 that XPERIA is actually made by HTC...so maybe we'll see something cool like that Aug 13 17:29:35 HTC makes some pretty cool phones, I don't doubt that they can pull off something spectacular for Android. Aug 13 17:29:54 I sure hope so. Either a diamond or xperia would be nice Aug 13 17:29:58 although it depends entirely on how much enthusiasm and money they want to put behind an untested product like this Aug 13 17:30:30 HTC currently holds the title of the only smartphone maker to create a smart flip-phone. Aug 13 17:30:52 i didn't mean anything by that, just some cool smartphone trivia ;) Aug 13 17:30:54 what are you, wikipedia? Aug 13 17:31:32 wikipedia bot Aug 13 17:31:41 ahhh that makes sense Aug 13 17:31:48 jasta, weather LAX Aug 13 17:31:54 ? Aug 13 17:32:01 slow bot at that Aug 13 17:32:09 probably written in python Aug 13 17:32:27 or java. :-) Aug 13 17:32:33 8) Aug 13 17:32:45 No, COBOL. Aug 13 17:33:05 And it's currently 74 degrees and sunny. Aug 13 17:33:05 it *is* an interesting bot though.. see how it tries to play along? Aug 13 17:33:09 (i guessed, was i right?) Aug 13 17:40:08 71 and cloudy Aug 13 17:40:16 you suck. :-) Aug 13 18:58:59 yawn Aug 13 18:59:38 yawwwwwwn Aug 13 18:59:46 sup Aug 13 18:59:53 this morning really sucked to get up Aug 13 19:00:07 yeah Aug 13 19:00:22 thats what i was saying earlier. i felt like shit for the first 4 hours or so i was awake. Aug 13 19:00:34 not enough sleep i guess Aug 13 19:05:30 i got plenty, i just couldn't get up or something Aug 13 19:06:53 I just committed a functional project demonstrating somewhat non-trivial JNI with Android. Aug 13 19:11:12 http://code.google.com/p/android-random/source/browse/#svn/trunk/JNITest Aug 13 19:35:18 if I had any idea what any of that meant beyond 'JNI' I would comment. Aug 13 19:37:13 yakischloba: JNI is how you interact with Java from other languages, most notably C/C++. It allows other languages to interact with the Java runtime. Aug 13 19:37:26 Much of Android is coded in C/C++ and just linked to from Java this way. Aug 13 19:38:41 maybe I phrased that wrong. I meant I was familiar with what JNI is ;) Aug 13 19:40:44 oh, well all i was doing was trying to benchmark some native stuffs on Android. Aug 13 19:41:03 in particular, the difference between natively reading a file versus using a FileInputStream poked through to C. Aug 13 19:41:21 gotcha. is this the way of the future for complex android applications? Aug 13 19:41:24 Having C invoke the read(byte[]) method, extract the bytes, and use them for some purpose inside the JNI library. Aug 13 19:42:02 I was merely trying to get a better sense of performance implications. In particular I'm looking at why the MediaPlayer doesn't have a way to feed it from Java using a stream. Aug 13 19:44:02 One thing I can't quite get my head around is why Android would force us to be efficient at a great loss of flexibility. When possible, I can't see a reason Android couldn't offer simply optimized alternatives. Aug 13 19:44:27 For example reading from a FileDescriptor instead of an InputStream. But still supporting both. Aug 13 19:44:40 MediaPlayer is a bit trickier, of course, since it must support all manners of seeking. Aug 13 19:45:14 boo, microsoft ;0 Aug 13 19:45:39 Wow Aug 13 19:45:40 Mood Swings Aug 13 19:45:43 Work is work :) Aug 13 19:46:00 Thankful to God to even be here Aug 13 19:46:16 lol? Aug 13 19:47:08 Honestly my first time in an IRC server in like 3 years :) Aug 13 19:48:06 U r riding a horse full speed, a giraffe is beside u and u r being chased by a lion. What do you do....??? Aug 13 19:48:18 U get ur drunk ass off the carousel !!! Aug 13 19:48:32 Wow, guess people just really idle in these things Aug 13 19:48:53 lol. Aug 13 19:49:21 Life or Work or Whatever you're at must be really boring Aug 13 19:50:36 He sounds like a troll already. I was only joking about the Microsoft crack. Aug 13 19:51:25 lOl Aug 13 19:51:36 jasta, got a great sense of humor Aug 13 19:52:14 Unless you're a 15 year old girl, please stop typing like you are texting your girlfriends. Aug 13 19:52:26 In fact, even in that case, just stop it. Aug 13 19:52:38 Wow, someone's on their period Aug 13 19:54:19 DreyX, I think the 'u r' style of writing is passe. Aug 13 19:54:37 and jasta's always that way Aug 13 19:55:11 Oh my bad Aug 13 19:55:59 He's from Seattle so can't hate on him :) Just a fellow as I am Aug 13 19:56:11 moldy washingtonians Aug 13 19:56:23 Lol Aug 13 19:56:49 I believe that's pronounced seattilites. Aug 13 19:57:04 Lol Aug 13 20:02:53 jasta: I recall Romain saying that calling through to native code in Dalvik is fast (at least for code that forms the native part of the application framework) Aug 13 20:03:10 It's possible that they have a mechanism other than JNI for calling through to native code. Aug 13 20:10:47 no we use only JNI Aug 13 20:21:47 tomgibara: "fast" is relative. a call to a Java method and extracting a byte array is quite simply not going to beat a call to fread or read. Aug 13 20:22:11 the only overhead of that read is a to-user copy. Aug 13 20:22:53 i expect, actually, that the byte array extraction is the expensive piece. i didn't verify that a copy had been made. if it had, that would obviously destroy performance. Aug 13 20:23:02 Silly Java programmers assume copies are cheap ;) Aug 13 20:24:05 I should actually check. the last arg to GetByteArrayElements will tell me if it copied... Aug 13 20:25:05 i am also curious what exactly CallMethod() is doing. GetMethodID seems like it would perform the lookup, where CallMethod would simply be a jump and copy for the arguments. Aug 13 20:25:15 But I don't know what sort of voodoo is going on here. Aug 13 20:27:29 jasta: I know very little about this stuff, but would guess that a copy needs to be made otherwise the GC might reclaim your array, or move it, while the C code executes. Aug 13 20:29:04 i would think the GC would be signaled to stay the hell away from it once I request it from C code. Aug 13 20:29:41 I was thinking that, but was trying to reason how that would work in practice Aug 13 20:30:47 ReleaseByteArrayElements implies just that. Aug 13 20:35:16 well, that relationship can also be a malloc/free. Aug 13 20:35:22 depending on isCopy Aug 13 20:35:28 I guess I'll just need to change that from NULL and check. Aug 13 20:36:33 Yes, just read the docs, you can choose between copying and pinning Aug 13 20:43:31 you can choose? Aug 13 20:43:33 i thought it chose for you. Aug 13 20:44:11 I think where you call: Aug 13 20:44:11 GetByteArrayElements(env, b, NULL); Aug 13 20:44:24 the last parameter can be: Aug 13 20:44:35 yeah i'm reading now Aug 13 20:44:55 JNI_TRUE for copying or JNI_FALSE for pinning Aug 13 20:46:09 i think i used the wrong function, actually Aug 13 20:46:26 GetPrimitiveArrayCritical may be the right choice. Aug 13 20:47:06 "These restrictions make it more likely that the native code will obtain an uncopied version of the array, even if the VM does not support pinning. For example, a VM may temporarily disable garbage collection when the native code is holding a pointer to an array obtained via GetPrimitiveArrayCritical. " Aug 13 20:48:03 Depends on your app's profile I guess. Aug 13 20:48:19 if you can fit it into a critical section, then you should apparently. Aug 13 20:48:44 still, i don't see what you're talking about being able to control pinning in J2SE 1.5 Aug 13 20:49:03 isCopy (the last param) simply indicates what the VM did, but does not (according to these docs) give you control over it. Aug 13 20:49:24 GetPrimitiveArrayCritical simply gives you a greater chance because the semantics make it easier for the VM not to have made a copy Aug 13 20:49:52 You're right - I wasn't reading very carefully Aug 13 20:50:21 i'm going to still just test whether a copy was made in my example. Aug 13 20:50:28 Even then it may need to make a copy, say if the array isn't stored contiguously Aug 13 20:50:44 right, i'm curious to find out if on Android this is true or not Aug 13 20:51:43 It would depend somewhat on the nature of the GC in Dalvik I guess Aug 13 20:54:07 Was there any information given about the Dalvik GC at IO? Aug 13 20:54:27 Not really. It was very disappointing. Aug 13 20:54:32 Still, we can test this now :) Aug 13 20:54:35 * jasta hacks Aug 13 20:56:42 Perhaps a heap-compacting stop-the-world kind of GC Aug 13 20:56:43 interesting, isCopy was true :) Aug 13 20:56:56 hmm Aug 13 20:57:02 perhaps we can squeeze some performance out of this afterall. Aug 13 20:57:12 btw, this is on Sun's Java 1.5 that I just tested. Aug 13 20:57:17 so I don't know what Dalvik did just yet Aug 13 20:57:41 okay, I'm going to guess false for Dalvik :) Aug 13 20:57:48 i can't easily test this from Dalvik. I'd need to poke through and call Log.d :) Aug 13 20:58:05 On the basis that the GC implementation will be much simpler. Aug 13 20:58:52 tomgibara: Well, what's interesting is that the performance difference on Sun's JVM is roughly the same as Dalvik's running in the emulator. Aug 13 20:59:05 So... ;) Aug 13 20:59:10 But anyway, I will confirm it. Aug 13 20:59:11 Hang on. Aug 13 20:59:31 (It's very hard to confirm because I have to somehow report on the value of isCopy...) Aug 13 20:59:49 well, not very hard ;) Aug 13 21:08:18 GetPrimitiveArrayCritical now is not copying. Aug 13 21:08:28 So, now to find out what Dalvik's behaviour was. Aug 13 21:09:01 the difference without a copy being made is EXTREMELY minimal on Sun's JVM :) Aug 13 21:09:27 as in, it must be slower because I know that it must be, but the margin is undetectable by these numbers. Aug 13 21:09:51 0.0978 versus 0.1012 Aug 13 21:10:48 brb Aug 13 21:14:19 yes, possibly insignificant Aug 13 21:23:37 i certainly hope so, it would make it an awful lot easier to convince Google to implement this ;) Aug 13 21:29:26 anyone here use android on an n810 Aug 13 21:32:53 i don't think so. haven't heard anything here. Aug 13 21:33:02 many folks here have used it on the kaiser and vogue, though. Aug 13 21:44:33 mike hasn't been here in a while...hmm.. Aug 13 21:45:52 yay freewifi on mah n810 Aug 13 21:52:16 tomgibara: ok... Aug 13 21:52:35 actually, one more test, then results ;) Aug 13 21:56:32 tomgibara: you there? Aug 13 21:59:51 hey, when does adc1 phase II end? Aug 13 22:01:03 jasta: am here now Aug 13 22:06:55 tomgibara: So, what I have learned is that Dalvik does not copy using eihter GetByteArrayElements or GetPrimitiveArrayCritical, and the usage of either doesn't seem to have an effect on performance otheriwse. Aug 13 22:07:28 On Sun's JVM on my Ubuntu machine, GetByteArrayElements does copy, and as such changing to GetPrimitiveArrayCritical (which does not copy) is substantially faster, narrowing the margin between the two functions to a miniscule difference on a desktop PC. Aug 13 22:07:44 On the emulator however, the performance difference is massive with the same code running. Aug 13 22:08:36 how massive? Aug 13 22:11:45 jasta: from the last figures, you concluded that the difference might still be small enough (as a proportion of the total playback time) to make it feasible, are the figures unchanged and is that still the case? Aug 13 22:11:49 This tells me that actually that it could simply be a deficiency with Dalvik more than an inherent problem with JNI Aug 13 22:11:54 tomgibara: Well, you saw the benchmarks I posted yesterday. Aug 13 22:12:08 That massive. Aug 13 22:12:41 tomgibara: Oh, my overall conclusion in the context of MediaPlayer is still the same. The overhead of allowing this type of JNI interface is not so great that it significantly affects the bottom line. Aug 13 22:12:42 It could be an artifact of the emulation Aug 13 22:13:01 or was this on a real device? Aug 13 22:13:03 But it is still unusual to me that we see such a close margin in performance on Sun's JVM and a drastic margin for Dalvik. Dalvik is possibly doing something lame here. Aug 13 22:13:12 this was in the emulator, i'm hoping to try it on a real device now. Aug 13 22:13:15 And fortunately AttractiveApe just arrived :) Aug 13 22:13:24 AttractiveApe: willing to try something for me? Aug 13 22:16:24 hi all Aug 13 22:17:38 I want to build android for arm how i can select the board and the processor and the how to install the cross compiler? Aug 13 22:18:06 megapower: be warned that android is closed source, and so cannot be recompiled for different platforms. Aug 13 22:18:29 some existing hardware just so happens to have a compatible target architecture, but not all. Aug 13 22:18:43 ARM has lots of different architecture versions Aug 13 22:18:56 jasta: wee bit busy for now, maybe later :( Aug 13 22:18:59 what do you need done? Aug 13 22:19:29 but it's linux based and just i need to configure the make file isn't it? Aug 13 22:21:42 megapower: Android runs the Linux kernel, but there is an enormous amount of middle-ware compiled from C++ sources specifically for a particular target. Aug 13 22:22:00 Or rather, Android runs atop the Linux kernel. Aug 13 22:22:17 AttractiveApe: I need some JNI stuffs tested, I can e-mail you what I need. Aug 13 22:22:24 just a .so loaded onto the phone and an apk to test it. Aug 13 22:22:28 Just performance benchmarks. Aug 13 22:22:39 I'm not quite ready to send it yet, though. Aug 13 22:23:06 so where i can find a list of the supported architectures and boards? Aug 13 22:24:28 iirc, they've told us it's designed for one platform, the HTC Dream, which uses the MSM7500a chipset. Aug 13 22:24:51 There may be more platforms supported, but that's the only one they've shown us. Aug 13 22:25:06 jasta: email me what you need me to do, I gotta go again Aug 13 22:25:06 -.- Aug 13 22:25:07 bbl Aug 13 22:29:45 megapower: well, as for supported boards, that is going to be a very small set officially, and will be observed from the Linux source found at http://git.android.com Aug 13 22:29:54 yay i got my job :) Aug 13 22:30:15 megapower: for supported archs, i think it's ARMv5T, but i can't remember. Aug 13 22:30:27 you can just check the binaries that are on the system image Aug 13 22:30:51 ok, thanks a lot for ur help Aug 13 22:44:52 good afternoon everyone Aug 13 22:45:33 w.d. yakischloba Aug 13 22:46:13 hey Dougie187 Aug 13 22:46:23 hows it going jasta? Aug 13 22:46:43 pretty OK. Aug 13 22:47:22 ... Aug 13 22:47:23 lol Aug 13 22:48:25 did you play any more last night? Aug 13 22:48:37 no Aug 13 22:48:59 too bad. Aug 13 22:52:03 Dougie187: I've just been so enthralled in Android again for some reason. Aug 13 22:52:08 Right now I'm fighting with Dalvik hehe Aug 13 22:52:48 trying to figure out why my benchmarks show negligible difference on Sun's JVM (1.5) between native file I/O and using an InputStream. Aug 13 22:53:12 But significant difference on Dalvik. Aug 13 22:55:52 Might be just the emulator being stupid, though. Aug 13 22:57:30 there's something that can slow down JNI calls called "CheckJNI" Aug 13 22:57:36 the emulator has an option to turn this off/on Aug 13 22:59:05 what does it do? Aug 13 23:02:44 evening Aug 13 23:03:02 Sorry my dad called. Aug 13 23:05:12 how is he? Aug 13 23:05:55 to much tea for this hour Aug 13 23:06:51 hes good. Aug 13 23:10:21 romainguy_: interesting... Aug 13 23:10:28 i'm reading up on what it does in Sun's VM Aug 13 23:11:48 romainguy_: http://blog.chinaunix.net/u1/38994/showart.php?id=1099466 -- where does all this information come from? Aug 13 23:12:14 i can't imagine this is reverse engineered? it references googles apparent android build tree Aug 13 23:19:26 jasta: yes, interesting Aug 13 23:20:34 jasta: Ask morrildl Aug 13 23:20:52 about this information? Aug 13 23:49:15 last.fm indie tag radio is great :) Aug 13 23:50:54 you gonna be on tonight jasta? Aug 13 23:53:45 probably not Aug 13 23:54:12 i won't be home until like 9 tonight Aug 13 23:54:16 bust. Aug 13 23:54:21 well i think im gonna get some dota on. Aug 13 23:54:22 lol Aug 13 23:54:28 bbl Aug 14 00:55:47 hello **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Aug 14 02:59:57 2008