**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Aug 15 02:59:56 2008
Aug 15 03:05:34 <duey> jasta: you will need to make it location based if you want to win
Aug 15 03:05:49 <jasta> hehe
Aug 15 03:06:06 <jasta> just writing it for fun, of course.
Aug 15 03:17:47 <jasta> i just wanted to actually go beyond just demonstrating it working.
Aug 15 03:18:00 <jasta> i hate leaving projects like that.  i like fore verything i start to be something i'd be OK putting in front of a typical user.
Aug 15 03:18:42 <jasta> also, my girlfriend has high requirements for a Klondike game.  It must be configurable to have 1 card turns, unlimited stock deals, unlimited undo, and have a "fun" animation when you win.
Aug 15 03:38:29 <michaelnovakjr__> howdy
Aug 15 03:38:42 <jasta> ltns :)
Aug 15 03:39:03 <michaelnovakjr__> :)
Aug 15 03:39:29 <michaelnovakjr__> was a little busy
Aug 15 03:39:34 <michaelnovakjr__> i see you were too :)
Aug 15 05:43:10 <jasta> wow, i just wrote a ton of code to have all that work first try
Aug 15 05:43:21 <jasta> totally gutted and refactored the entire engine
Aug 15 05:43:31 <jasta> as far as the android stuff, anyway, not the basic card model
Aug 15 05:43:33 <jasta> but still, wow.
Aug 15 05:44:27 <anno^da_> good morning guys
Aug 15 05:45:22 <jasta> morning
Aug 15 05:45:35 <anno^da> ah morning jasta
Aug 15 05:45:49 <anno^da> which app did you rewrite ? Five ?
Aug 15 05:45:58 <jasta> no no, just my Solitaire engine.
Aug 15 05:46:27 <jasta> it's not just a Solitaire game, it's kind of like Aisleriot for GNOME.  An engine that supports any number of solitaire game rules
Aug 15 05:46:39 <jasta> currently Klondike is fully supported and playable.
Aug 15 05:47:09 <anno^da> ah cool :). Well I dont know the rules of Solitaire that good. :)
Aug 15 05:47:10 <jasta> though Klondike is the lamest of them all.  Freecell is next, but it will be one of the harder ones to support.
Aug 15 05:47:18 <anno^da> Are there a lot of rules for Solitaire ?
Aug 15 05:47:23 <jasta> oh yes.
Aug 15 05:47:26 <anno^da> different ones
Aug 15 05:47:44 <anno^da> well thats cool.
Aug 15 05:47:50 <jasta> aisleriot supports like a hundred
Aug 15 05:48:28 <anno^da> awesome I havent thought that there are so much different ones
Aug 15 05:48:51 <jasta> basically, Solitaire is any card 1 player card game.
Aug 15 05:48:54 <jasta> So, you can imagine there are lots.
Aug 15 05:49:03 <anno^da> You could think about some multiplayer rules. Playing card games against others from the mobile would be great.
Aug 15 05:49:23 <jasta> there's freecell (my favorite), spider, golf, pyramid, eight off, etc...
Aug 15 05:49:39 <jasta> yeah, but i don't really want to implement something that complicated right now.  just solitaire. :)
Aug 15 05:49:44 <anno^da> :D
Aug 15 05:49:50 <anno^da> basically, Solitaire is any card 1 player card game. <-- didnt know that.
Aug 15 05:49:56 <jasta> i just got sick of waiting for the next SDK, so i decided to write something that won't need to be updated much once it comes out.
Aug 15 05:50:13 <jasta> i meant any 1 player card game.  don't know why i put card in there twice :)
Aug 15 05:50:58 <anno^da> :)
Aug 15 05:51:00 <jasta> anno^da: Freecell is fun.  It's somewhat like Klondike except all cards are dealt face-up, and you get 4 free cells (slots to put cards).  All the legal moves are the same, though.
Aug 15 05:51:15 <jasta> But actually the only way to move cards is to move them through the free cells.
Aug 15 05:51:18 <anno^da> Is there some APK up for testing ?
Aug 15 05:51:28 <jasta> So if you have all 4 cells open, you can move a stack of 5 cards.
Aug 15 05:51:34 <jasta> If you only have 1 cell open, you can only move a stack of 2 cards.
Aug 15 05:52:04 <gambler> write a poker client that catches on and you will make sick good money
Aug 15 05:52:07 <jasta> And if you run out of free cells and have no moves, you lose.  But, it's entirely deterministic.  An AI for example could perfectly solve almost every deal.
Aug 15 05:52:29 <jasta> (In a 52 card deck, Freecell has 8 possible deals which are unwinnable)
Aug 15 05:52:34 <anno^da> write a poker client that catches on and you will make sick good money <- true :)
Aug 15 05:52:42 <anno^da> but it has to be online ;)
Aug 15 05:52:45 <jasta> gambler: There's no APK, but the code is available from Subversion at android-random.googlecode.com
Aug 15 05:52:48 <jasta> it builds clean.
Aug 15 05:53:09 <gambler> not my cup of tea to develop that app, but id be a customer of it
Aug 15 05:53:17 <anno^da> ah cool. Then I have to retry getting the SVN into Eclipse.
Aug 15 05:53:55 <jasta> anno^da: i'm doing major restructuring right now to make it apparent to the user that multiple rules are supported.
Aug 15 05:54:00 <jasta> right now it just appears to be a very simple Klondike game.
Aug 15 05:54:03 <jasta> (but it isn't *grin*)
Aug 15 05:54:33 <anno^da> Well that is great.
Aug 15 05:54:42 <jasta> I thought about a cool feature the other day too.  An option to force the engine to only deal you winnable games.
Aug 15 05:54:58 <jasta> So that if you fail to win a deal, you can redeal and keep playing with confidence that it *CAN* be won.
Aug 15 05:55:02 <anno^da> Do you get the SVN input with the standard svn console tools or with a plugin in eclipse ?
Aug 15 05:55:22 <jasta> anno^da: I personally do most of my dev with the command-line svn client, vim, and maven.
Aug 15 05:55:36 <anno^da> ok.
Aug 15 05:55:41 <jasta> I use the Eclim vim plugin, though.  But all that does is give me the nice code complete, and junk.
Aug 15 05:56:31 <gambler> would maven appeal to non java projects?
Aug 15 05:57:06 <gambler> free software needs something better than GNU autotools thats for sure
Aug 15 05:57:18 <jasta> gambler: Not really, no.
Aug 15 05:57:47 <jasta> gambler: i can assure you, for as bad as autotools may seem, it solves an incredible challenging problem and is the only project to do it correctly and completely.
Aug 15 05:58:27 <jasta> why they chose to do most of it using m4 is a mystery to me, but the fact remains that it is an incredibly empowering project.
Aug 15 05:58:40 <jasta> Java build environments, for the most part, are primitive and sucky by contrast.
Aug 15 05:58:42 <gambler> it was great for its time ...which is past due imo
Aug 15 05:59:16 <jasta> gambler: You mean the time when most UNIX flavors and systems have thousands of subtle differences?  You think that's gone? :)
Aug 15 05:59:44 <gambler> before linux/i386 killed them all
Aug 15 06:00:00 <jasta> Yeah, right.
Aug 15 06:01:01 <jasta> Anyone that's ever tried to homebrew their own sophisticated build environment can attest to the nightmarish complexity that autotools made simple.
Aug 15 06:04:53 <gambler> hehe
Aug 15 06:14:05 <jasta> i hate when i get in thse moods where i can't think of what to listen to
Aug 15 06:20:59 <gambler> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN13e8FTrJ8
Aug 15 06:21:25 <jasta> seriously?
Aug 15 06:21:40 <gambler> mmm yep
Aug 15 06:21:46 <gambler> u dont like it?
Aug 15 06:21:50 <jasta> i am going to kill you
Aug 15 06:21:59 <gambler> haha why
Aug 15 06:22:29 <jasta> well first of all, apparentl you're a 15 year old girl and they bother me
Aug 15 06:22:59 <jasta> second, are you really so easily fooled by this record industry pandering?  capitol records new "bad girl".
Aug 15 06:23:30 <gambler> red blooded man here ... i think the clip should demonstrate that
Aug 15 06:24:06 <jasta> well sure if you mute it and pretend she's not just another infuriating airhead, yeah.
Aug 15 06:24:39 <gambler> so your into intelligent women? what does your gf do work at CERN?
Aug 15 06:25:14 <jasta> she's studying environmental engineering, and currently works at a geothermal energy startup in Seattle.
Aug 15 06:26:04 <jasta> and i think it's a stretch to say i'm into supergenius women just because this sort of pandering doesn't work on me.
Aug 15 06:26:31 <gambler> sounds like a good catch...some of us just happen to appreciate the er ...more superficial aspects of the female form
Aug 15 06:27:56 <jasta> really, if you want to just oogle attractive women you should find ones that you don't have to suffer through their bad singing
Aug 15 06:28:15 <jasta> everything about that chick has been engineered by the recording industry.  she's more machine than human.
Aug 15 06:28:27 <gambler> i find that song pretty hot but it would be pretty interesting to see if I liked it with different lyrics
Aug 15 06:28:40 <gambler> probably 80% drop in satisfaction if it was say about ...women's shoes
Aug 15 06:29:42 <jasta> yeah, what would be more interesting to find out that a middle-aged man wrote it or something like that.
Aug 15 06:29:55 <gambler> probably a 40 year old jewish guy
Aug 15 06:29:59 <jasta> almost certainly
Aug 15 06:30:01 <gambler> haha yeah
Aug 15 06:30:17 <jasta> and she isn't even singing it, of course.
Aug 15 06:30:39 <jasta> no American pop singers actually sing.  they use something called a pitch corrector, which now even works real-time for concerts and stuff so they don't have to lip sync anymore.
Aug 15 06:33:13 <jasta> i don't know about you but i try not to reward talentless hacks.
Aug 15 06:33:15 <anno^da> pitch correctors are working pretty awesome :P
Aug 15 06:34:19 <jasta> anno^da: what?
Aug 15 06:35:09 <gambler> http://www.kontraband.com/videos/12463/Iraqi-Gangster-Boy/
Aug 15 06:36:51 <anno^da> jasta: all I wanted to say is that you are right with what you are saying. The pitch correctors are working that good that a normal music listener wouldnt realize the faked voice.
Aug 15 06:41:41 <jasta> anno^da: most people i think are coming to PREFER the sound.
Aug 15 06:41:45 <jasta> they like that kind weird robot-like voice
Aug 15 06:41:57 <jasta> mostly because they're idiots and i hate them too :)
Aug 15 06:43:12 <anno^da> :D. Oh well I'm so with you in that point.
Aug 15 06:43:20 <anno^da> But I dont really care about them.
Aug 15 06:44:09 <anno^da> Why should I hate them. It is just a waste of energy.
Aug 15 06:48:27 <anno^da> I just enjoy listening my music.
Aug 15 06:49:26 <anno^da> And I would die if could only listen to the 10 songs being looped at the radio/tv stations.
Aug 15 06:51:21 <jasta> what do you like, if you don't mind?
Aug 15 06:51:50 <anno^da> What music I like ?
Aug 15 06:52:56 <jasta> yeah
Aug 15 06:53:20 <anno^da> mmh well State Radio, Dispatch, Xavier Rudd, Dave Matthews Band, Nicholas Barron, Andrew White, Barenaked Ladies, Bishop Allen, Newton Faulkner...
Aug 15 06:53:35 <anno^da> ahh and I love the John Butler Trio
Aug 15 06:53:41 <jasta> i just meant what type of music, but yeah i get the gist :)
Aug 15 06:54:06 <jasta> I clearly lean toward indie rock, mostly of British influences.
Aug 15 06:54:16 <anno^da> Ahh :) well I like the accoustic stuff.
Aug 15 06:54:40 <anno^da> But I'm not really fixed to that.
Aug 15 06:54:48 <jasta> Recently I'm into The Airborne Toxic Event, The National, Cloud Cult, ...
Aug 15 06:55:14 <anno^da> ah cool. I've looked at your last fm site days ago.
Aug 15 06:55:18 <jasta> My all-time favorite band is Minus The Bear though, an experimental indie band from Seattle (my home town)
Aug 15 06:55:57 <anno^da> But I wouldnt call me the guy that is just listening to indie music. And refusing to hear "main stream" (whatever this is ) music
Aug 15 06:56:41 <jasta> I don't feel bad saying that I categorically reject American pop music :)
Aug 15 06:57:00 <anno^da> :D
Aug 15 06:57:14 <anno^da> Ok well 3 doors down is also some kind of pop music
Aug 15 06:57:17 <anno^da> :)
Aug 15 06:57:20 <jasta> Everything about it is so terrible.  I can't believe we even call that music.  Where it's common place that artists don't write their lyrics, the song, anything.  They just put on skimpy outfits and wave their arms around on TV.
Aug 15 06:57:35 <anno^da> true
Aug 15 06:57:49 <jasta> My mom once seriously said "Well come on, most artists don't write their own music."
Aug 15 06:58:05 <jasta> I quipped back "No, most do, just not the crap you listen to." :)
Aug 15 06:58:20 <anno^da> thats it
Aug 15 06:58:28 <anno^da> There is soo much great music out there.
Aug 15 06:58:41 <anno^da> But most people hear the 10 songs looped in the radio.
Aug 15 06:58:56 <anno^da> the marketing machines running ;)
Aug 15 06:59:11 <jasta> I don't hate music just because it's popular, I recognize that a lot of the music I like is hugely popular in certain regions.
Aug 15 06:59:22 <jasta> It's just American pop in particular.  *eww*.
Aug 15 06:59:41 <gambler> is this music good or evil http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ePU7O5q0s
Aug 15 06:59:52 <anno^da> It's not the music I hate it is just the way it is created.
Aug 15 07:00:45 <anno^da> gambler: it's not about good and evil I would say
Aug 15 07:02:31 <anno^da> It is about people sold for the industries needs. And the bad thing about that is that they dont even recognize being abused for making more and more money.
Aug 15 07:02:53 <anno^da> It is not about making music it is about making money.
Aug 15 07:03:16 <jasta> anno^da: the music industry has a LOT of people fooled.
Aug 15 07:03:40 <anno^da> How to create the music that fits best in the markeing concept.
Aug 15 07:03:42 <gambler> anno^da, thats the capitalist society most of us who are fortunate enough to own computers live in
Aug 15 07:03:54 <jasta> the RIAA's primary job, for example, is to promote and distribute music.  that's generally in the form of CD sales, where their profit comes from.  Artists see virtually no profit from CD sales.
Aug 15 07:04:08 <jasta> Artists make money also as a side effect of the RIAA making money: concerts and merchandise.
Aug 15 07:04:13 <gambler> anno^da, take a look at the rest of the world bro ... people at like a caveman level of development due to their crazy other ideas or incompetent leaders
Aug 15 07:04:26 <jasta> Despite the highest profit margins coming from the record sales themselves.
Aug 15 07:04:33 <jasta> (and thats why its the RIAAs cut)
Aug 15 07:04:42 <anno^da> incompetent leaders ... Bush ?
Aug 15 07:04:50 <gambler> well the net is changing the media distribution system
Aug 15 07:05:30 <anno^da> sorry but I can't take that serious. There are definetly incompetent leaders. But I wouldnt say that with a leader called Mr. Bush.
Aug 15 07:06:18 <gambler> there are heaps of opportunities right now to change the entire media distribution paradigm
Aug 15 07:06:31 <gambler> it will happen eventually because the market will make it happen
Aug 15 07:06:31 <anno^da> gambler: thats right.
Aug 15 07:07:19 <jasta> FYI, if you want to make that happen faster, pirate CDs, buy concert tickets.
Aug 15 07:07:29 <jasta> buy t-shirts when you go to those concerts too.
Aug 15 07:07:34 <gambler> until then I'll be watching premium content like this for free: http://cakefarts.com
Aug 15 07:07:56 <gambler> i hate concerts ...they too loud for me
Aug 15 07:08:18 <jasta> it is a very common practice to wear earplugs at concerts.
Aug 15 07:08:25 <anno^da> haha thats a point I dislike too.
Aug 15 07:08:28 <jasta> for some people it makes the experience much more enjoyable
Aug 15 07:08:42 <anno^da> Yeah but that cant be to go over 120 dbA and more
Aug 15 07:09:05 <jasta> anno^da: what do yo umean?
Aug 15 07:09:37 <anno^da> I mean that you dont need music that is louder than 120 dbA
Aug 15 07:10:00 <jasta> Right, so put earplugs in like I said.  They usually sell them at the concerts, or you can get very nice comfortable ones ahead of time.
Aug 15 07:10:09 <anno^da> I wear earplus but it would be more enjoyable to be not forced to wear some.
Aug 15 07:10:25 <jasta> Some people like the energy of very loud music.
Aug 15 07:10:31 <anno^da> Oh well I have great ear plugs. :)
Aug 15 07:10:31 <romainguy> http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2008/08/tunewiki_audio_for_google_android_looks_very_impressive-2.html
Aug 15 07:10:32 <romainguy> nice
Aug 15 07:11:19 <anno^da> jasta: sure but there is a boarder. They like it because they injured there ears :)
Aug 15 07:11:20 <jasta> romainguy: btw, how is this not against the terms of the NDA?
Aug 15 07:11:36 <jasta> romainguy: that is a video taken from a private build.
Aug 15 07:11:47 <romainguy> jasta: didn't you use an SDK you were not supposed to have? :))
Aug 15 07:11:50 <romainguy> the answer is pretty simple
Aug 15 07:12:02 <romainguy> they just asked for the permission to publish this video
Aug 15 07:12:08 <jasta> romainguy: and i was distributed it in violation of the NDA.  someone can get in a lot of trouble for that.
Aug 15 07:12:19 <jasta> not me, because i didn't do anything wrong ;)
Aug 15 07:12:27 <anno^da> :P
Aug 15 07:12:36 <jasta> i complied with the distribution terms, the ADC winner didn't. *grin*
Aug 15 07:12:50 <romainguy> that doesn't make it more morally acceptable :)
Aug 15 07:12:51 <romainguy> anyway
Aug 15 07:13:38 <gambler> no offense jasta but its pretty gay you get a sneak peak and the rest of us suffer
Aug 15 07:13:47 <gambler> maybe i should whine nonstop for 2 months
Aug 15 07:13:53 <jasta> gambler: Well it would be illegal for me to send it to you.
Aug 15 07:14:12 <jasta> gambler: I didn't get a sneak peek btw, some retard in the top 50 winners accidentally published it.
Aug 15 07:14:39 <anno^da> accidentally :P
Aug 15 07:15:20 <gambler> jasta, well if you gave me an jailboxed ssh account on your machine so that I could review it without copying it...that probably wouldnt be a violation of copyright...and since I doubt you signed any contracts...
Aug 15 07:15:22 <jasta> I chose not to redistribute it for two reasons: a) it's against Google's copyright for me to do so, and b) if watermarked, the source of the leak could be identified and he/she could have winnings revoked and possibly be sued by the almight Google.
Aug 15 07:15:51 <gambler> you could have published the link to the person who accidentally distributed it
Aug 15 07:16:06 <jasta> gambler: the link no longer works.
Aug 15 07:16:23 <gambler> yah i know
Aug 15 07:16:38 <jasta> gambler: Let me just say that you aren't missing much.
Aug 15 07:17:48 <gambler> meh whatever ...
Aug 15 07:17:55 * gambler goes back to watching http://cakefarts.com
Aug 15 07:27:37 <anno^da> haha androidguys.com is guessing once more what will happen :)
Aug 15 07:29:16 <jasta> androidguys will rot your brain.  don't read that crap :)
Aug 15 07:30:04 <anno^da> oh well its funny to see all the rumours floating around :)
Aug 15 10:50:47 <alex2308> those rumor sources are good
Aug 15 10:51:01 <jasta> what rumor?  what rumor sources?
Aug 15 10:51:59 <alex2308> http://androidguys.com/2008/08/15/starting-to-believe/
Aug 15 10:53:31 <jasta> why would you think they are good?
Aug 15 10:54:33 <alex2308> theyre pointing new dates and names
Aug 15 10:54:40 <alex2308> so i guess there is something behind it
Aug 15 10:54:41 <jasta> and that makes the rumors true?
Aug 15 10:54:44 <alex2308> but im not sure
Aug 15 10:54:55 <jasta> sounds to me like it's just some T-Mobile nobody blabbing about the nothing that he knows.
Aug 15 10:55:30 <jasta> by the way, that totally sucks T-Mobile is carrying the first devices.  They do not currently even have a 3G network.
Aug 15 10:55:55 <jasta> they're expected to roll it out probably along with Android, but then we get a brand new OS running on a brand new network (only in select cities).  *ugh*
Aug 15 10:57:12 <alex2308> yeah, thats a shame
Aug 15 10:57:17 <alex2308> i didnt knew that
Aug 15 10:57:26 <alex2308> we have a very high 3g coverage here in germany
Aug 15 10:57:29 <jasta> actually, T-Mobile is one of the worst carries in the US
Aug 15 10:58:05 <jasta> AT&T and Verizon are clear champions here, and of course they want nothing to do with Android.
Aug 15 10:58:55 <alex2308> major mistake id say
Aug 15 10:58:59 <jasta> We use Sprint at work, and my girlfriend used T-Mobile for years.  All over Seattle metro she would have very weak or no service in certain places where I had full 3G data on AT&T.
Aug 15 10:59:12 <alex2308> android will boost internet use on mobile devices, thats a big market
Aug 15 10:59:21 <jasta> And even in our office in Seattle proper, Sprint gives us 1 bar voice, no data.
Aug 15 10:59:55 <jasta> It's just frustrating that in order to get onboard with Android I have to intentionally sign up for the worst carrier around.
Aug 15 11:00:31 <jasta> There's no hope of even being able to just unlock the phone and drop it onto AT&T's network either.  Because apparently the Android market will depend on T-Mobile services.
Aug 15 11:00:35 <alex2308> i believe it wont be simlocked/netlocked as android is open/free
Aug 15 11:01:23 <jasta> alex2308: Google's part is open/free, and distributed under a license which would allow carriers and manufacturers to lock the devices down quite a lot.
Aug 15 11:01:57 <jasta> Google has also made no committments as to the level of openness we'll see after the carriers get their grimey hands on it.  I encourage you to make no assumptions there.
Aug 15 11:02:03 <alex2308> true, but i think you could cook your own ROM
Aug 15 11:02:18 <jasta> alex2308: Possibly, and by doing so you may cripple the device.
Aug 15 11:02:50 <jasta> And as I said, it's been rumored that Android's "Market" app is really T-Mobile's recent announcement of a general purpose App Store
Aug 15 11:03:08 <jasta> If true (and it seems quite reasonable that it is), then Android's app market will be unavailable on other carriers.
Aug 15 11:03:22 <jasta> Seriously hurting the value of moving it to another carrier.
Aug 15 11:03:38 <jasta> So, as has been said before, all this looks like Business As Usual (TM) for the wireless carriers.
Aug 15 11:03:53 <alex2308> imho the device is much more dependent on google services than providers, but thats just my opinion
Aug 15 11:04:21 <jasta> alex2308: We don't know what it will depend on.  Google's official policy is that the carriers can replace whatever they want.
Aug 15 11:04:27 <jasta> And if they have the ambition to do so, they likely will.
Aug 15 11:05:27 <jasta> Fortunately on that front we have the carriers typical ineptitude on our side.  They are likely too bumbling to produce quality applications that could reasonably replace Google's.
Aug 15 11:07:16 <alex2308> thats true
Aug 15 11:08:53 <jasta> It's frustrating how this industry works.
Aug 15 11:10:53 <alex2308> i wanna be in it
Aug 15 11:12:11 <jasta> How old are you?
Aug 15 11:13:04 <alex2308> 26
Aug 15 11:13:38 <jasta> Well, now's a pretty good time to jump.
Aug 15 11:14:39 <alex2308> im starting my MBA in 2 months
Aug 15 11:14:58 <jasta> you're not an SE?
Aug 15 11:18:11 <alex2308> computer science
Aug 15 11:18:39 <jasta> that puts a lot of things into perspective :)
Aug 15 11:19:41 <alex2308> hm, which?
Aug 15 11:20:32 <jasta> well, you never struck me as an engineer.  i didn't even think you were working with Android at all.
Aug 15 11:21:27 <alex2308> software engineer? never wanted to be one, i dont even code much
Aug 15 11:21:53 <jasta> right.  i could tell ;)
Aug 15 11:22:13 <alex2308> i did code a porn downloader last night :p
Aug 15 11:27:59 <jasta> so what do you want to do?  just get some cushy middle management gig?
Aug 15 11:28:36 <alex2308> atm privacy consulting but im switching to security consulting
Aug 15 11:28:52 <jasta> what experience do you have in that area?
Aug 15 11:29:54 <alex2308> just private interests and a bit work experience, im a junior
Aug 15 11:30:23 <jasta> do you have your BS in CS already?
Aug 15 11:30:37 <alex2308> yes
Aug 15 11:31:28 <jasta> getting an MBA won't help you do that.  i mean, it won't help you be the guy with any of the answers, though there may still be a place for you somewhere in the industry.
Aug 15 11:32:02 <jasta> getting an MBA just helps you blend in with the furniture.  nobody will wonder why you're on the payroll, but you won't be expected to do anything useful.  pretty sweet, i imagine.
Aug 15 11:32:21 <alex2308> the MBA is for further positions inside the enterprise, you wont reach high positions without basic knowledge about business
Aug 15 11:32:39 <alex2308> true, no work and a lot money
Aug 15 11:33:04 <jasta> i assume that's attractive to you?
Aug 15 11:33:15 <alex2308> ofc
Aug 15 11:33:26 <jasta> ofc?  of course?
Aug 15 11:33:59 <alex2308> ofc=of cource
Aug 15 11:34:53 <jasta> so do you actually have any interest in real technical implications of the industry you work?
Aug 15 11:35:22 <alex2308> depends
Aug 15 11:36:01 <alex2308> im very interested in security related topics, but i dont care much about hardware and i dont want to be a software engineer
Aug 15 11:36:12 <jasta> i've encountered a lot of the types you seem to be in my career.  my former boss was one of them.  upper management finally fired him.
Aug 15 11:36:41 <jasta> so what sort of security field were you looking to be in?  steel bars and the like? :)
Aug 15 11:36:52 <jasta> hand guns, billy clubs, etc... :)
Aug 15 11:37:03 <anno^da_> lol
Aug 15 11:37:32 <anno^da_> jasta would be the right guy for doing job interviews
Aug 15 11:37:35 <anno^da_> :)
Aug 15 11:37:47 <alex2308> from the point of view of a SE maybe :)
Aug 15 11:37:57 <alex2308> but thats not the way HR looks at it
Aug 15 11:38:07 <jasta> the way HR looks at it is wrong, and everyone knows it.
Aug 15 11:38:31 <jasta> HR just hires people they get along with, and who they can identify with.
Aug 15 11:38:43 <alex2308> and the guy still was your boss and maybe he is a boss on a different company now
Aug 15 11:38:48 <jasta> and since HR types are of a particular sort, they only seem to be good at hiring other HR people.
Aug 15 11:39:55 <jasta> alex2308: It all depends on what's important to you.  To some, it's money and power.  To others, it's integrity and respect.
Aug 15 11:40:27 <alex2308> i take money and power then
Aug 15 11:40:42 <alex2308> with money and power comes respect
Aug 15 11:40:46 <anno^da_> lol
Aug 15 11:40:47 <jasta> lol, what!?
Aug 15 11:40:48 <anno^da_> not really
Aug 15 11:41:21 <jasta> alex2308: Do you generally find that you respect people with more money than you?
Aug 15 11:41:25 <jasta> By that fact alone
Aug 15 11:41:27 <anno^da_> having money is far away from getting respect
Aug 15 11:41:40 <alex2308> the management guys threat each other that way
Aug 15 11:41:57 <alex2308> ofc not the SEs
Aug 15 11:42:08 <jasta> That's a funny way of looking at things.
Aug 15 11:42:21 <alex2308> it really depends on the poc
Aug 15 11:42:23 <alex2308> *pov
Aug 15 11:42:29 <jasta> Threatening good employees is not advantageous.
Aug 15 11:42:47 <alex2308> i dont like bill gates but i respect the way he built up MS
Aug 15 11:42:47 <jasta> It is never a good idea, nor will it work to your immediate or long-term best interests.
Aug 15 11:43:25 <anno^da_> Threatening employees will never be the right way.
Aug 15 11:43:36 <jasta> Then why did you just advocate it?
Aug 15 11:43:50 <jasta> Err, misread ;)
Aug 15 11:43:54 <anno^da_> :)
Aug 15 11:43:55 <jasta> Sorry anno^da_
Aug 15 11:44:04 <anno^da_> np jasta
Aug 15 11:44:55 <anno^da_> In fact they work for you and you as a manager depend on their performance.
Aug 15 11:45:27 <alex2308> thats why i wouldnt threat them
Aug 15 11:45:37 <jasta> And, more often than not if they think you're an obstacle, they'll just placate and lie to you, giving you absolutely no power whatsoever.
Aug 15 11:46:10 <jasta> This is especially easy to do if the manager is inept and uninformed.
Aug 15 11:46:50 <alex2308> thats how both parties deal with each other
Aug 15 11:46:56 <alex2308> admins are happy because they control things
Aug 15 11:47:04 <alex2308> manager is happy cause he gets more money
Aug 15 11:47:24 <jasta> by the way, i asked you how old you were earlier because i thought you were in high school hehe.
Aug 15 11:47:26 <alex2308> just depends whats more important to you, as someone sad before ;)
Aug 15 11:47:47 <jasta> your glib interpreation of the world reminds me of teenagers.
Aug 15 11:47:49 <alex2308> thanks, i use anti aging creme daily :) i knew it works
Aug 15 11:47:58 <jasta> interpretation*
Aug 15 11:48:16 <alex2308> well, it seems to work quite well as i have some job offers
Aug 15 11:48:50 <jasta> does that make you feel special?  what is the unemployment rate in your country?
Aug 15 11:49:08 <anno^da_> not really high in this sector :)
Aug 15 11:49:27 <alex2308> extremely low :)
Aug 15 11:49:28 <jasta> So 1 minus that number is how just like everyone else you are.
Aug 15 11:49:59 <alex2308> true, but i see me earning more than other computer science colleagues
Aug 15 11:50:06 <alex2308> and doing less :D
Aug 15 11:50:16 <jasta> That isn't a win you fool.
Aug 15 11:50:19 <anno^da_> To base your satisfaction on money and job offers cant be the right way.
Aug 15 11:50:41 <alex2308> maybe in your point of view
Aug 15 11:51:01 <jasta> What are you going to do with all that money, then?  What problem in your life is it going to help you solve?
Aug 15 11:51:54 <anno^da_> It is satisfaction for him. :-)
Aug 15 11:51:54 <alex2308> youre a buddhist monk or something? you dislike money?
Aug 15 11:52:19 <jasta> No, I actually have a very good career.
Aug 15 11:52:25 <anno^da_> alex2308: The point is why should I need more money than the money I need.
Aug 15 11:52:50 <anno^da_> You can satisfaction from a lot more things than just money and career.
Aug 15 11:52:54 <anno^da_> +get
Aug 15 11:52:56 <jasta> alex2308: I just don't find value in being a shallow, unenlightened person.  I certainly am not going to intentionally pursue it.
Aug 15 11:53:17 <alex2308> whats your career?
Aug 15 11:53:41 <jasta> I'm a software engineer.  I think you could have guessed that.
Aug 15 11:53:45 <alex2308> anno^da_ i prefer money and power. as i said
Aug 15 11:53:58 <alex2308> so whats your career then?
Aug 15 11:54:10 <alex2308> you started as a SE and you will end up as a SE?
Aug 15 11:54:30 <jasta> alex2308: Is that how you think that works?
Aug 15 11:54:31 <anno^da_> lol career for alex2308 means getting higher and higher and at the end you die.
Aug 15 11:54:43 <anno^da_> Thats a valuable life. :-)
Aug 15 11:55:29 <anno^da_> At the end you have millions of dollars a lot of houses in which you never really lived in and that's it.
Aug 15 11:55:37 <jasta> alex2308: If I so desire, I can move all the way up to CTO if I wanted.  Some day I would like to wind up as a director of engineering, though.
Aug 15 11:55:42 <alex2308> anno^da_ yes
Aug 15 11:56:10 <anno^da_> Yeah it is ok for me if it is your way. :)
Aug 15 11:56:16 <jasta> But at 25 I am not particularly concerned with "rising to the top" as fast as possible.
Aug 15 11:56:41 <anno^da_> I'm different there are other things beside the job.
Aug 15 11:57:01 <jasta> anno^da_: But just think, then he could marry a supermodel!  hehe
Aug 15 11:57:10 <jasta> And she could cheat on him, and take half his money.  And probably leave him with herpes ;)
Aug 15 11:57:19 <anno^da_> Well yeah :P.
Aug 15 11:57:24 <alex2308> well, from my pov (studying different careers and loans) it seems a very good start to study CS and start as a junior consulter, then further advance in business (MBA) and go to management
Aug 15 11:57:40 <alex2308> youll end up earning more than others and doing not much more
Aug 15 11:58:00 <jasta> I'm just going to end this conversation.
Aug 15 11:58:05 <alex2308> i have a nice gf
Aug 15 11:58:05 <anno^da_> :)
Aug 15 11:58:13 <alex2308> no need to leave her
Aug 15 11:59:02 <jasta> It is 5 in the morning where I live hehe.  I took tomorrow off too hehe
Aug 15 11:59:10 <alex2308> 2 pm here
Aug 15 11:59:36 <anno^da_> So I'm leaving now as well doing some fresh ice cream with the fruitds collected in the garden. (oh well thats an example for what makes live worthy for me. Just eating a cup of selfmade ice cream :) )
Aug 15 12:00:16 <alex2308> ice cream? garden? whats this? ;)
Aug 15 12:00:18 <jasta> anno^da_: For the last part of my mom's career at IBM she started negotiating for additional vacation rather than pay raises...
Aug 15 12:00:48 <alex2308> she should have done more home office ;)
Aug 15 12:00:52 <jasta> Now, at 50, she has a little over 2 months a year.
Aug 15 12:01:00 <jasta> alex2308: She has worked at home for the last 15 years.
Aug 15 12:01:08 <jasta> She was one of the first employees at IBM to telecommute, in fact.
Aug 15 12:01:13 <alex2308> thats cool
Aug 15 12:01:58 <jasta> Seems a pretty good way to set things up.  Much better than more money and some hollow sense of "power".
Aug 15 12:02:19 <anno^da_> Well it is.
Aug 15 12:02:34 <alex2308> it is for both of you, not me :)
Aug 15 12:03:25 <jasta> Anyway, I'm off to bed.
Aug 15 12:03:28 <anno^da_> :)
Aug 15 12:03:35 <anno^da_> good night jasta
Aug 15 12:03:38 <alex2308> gn8
Aug 15 12:14:02 <anno^da_> New York Times has now also taken up the latest rumours
Aug 15 12:17:33 <anno^da_> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/technology/15google.html?ref=business#
Aug 15 12:46:26 <zhobbs> not so shaky tunewiki demo: http://gizmodo.com/5037290/tunewiki-audio-for-google-android-looks-very-impressive
Aug 15 12:49:13 <alex2308> looks very good
Aug 15 12:49:55 <zhobbs> thanks
Aug 15 12:55:58 <cutmasta> zhobbs, cool features
Aug 15 12:56:05 <cutmasta> like music maps function
Aug 15 12:56:48 <alex2308> share playlists might be another
Aug 15 12:56:52 <zhobbs> cutmasta: yeah, it's cool to see what someone in japan is listening...can just pull up the youtube vid for that song, and even see it's lyrics in english
Aug 15 12:57:00 <cutmasta> yapp
Aug 15 12:57:08 <cutmasta> exactly
Aug 15 12:57:17 <zhobbs> yeah, we didn't get as much done with the social stuff as we wanted
Aug 15 12:57:34 <alex2308> IM someone
Aug 15 12:57:40 <cutmasta> social things are not the always the beste ones
Aug 15 12:57:47 <alex2308> find someone listing song x/having song x in playlist
Aug 15 12:58:18 <zhobbs> cutmasta: yeah, we don't want it to be intrusive or mandatory
Aug 15 12:58:38 <alex2308> streaming music from your NAS/WWW/desktop might be another awesome feature (thx to apple)
Aug 15 12:58:46 <cutmasta> yes
Aug 15 12:58:49 <cutmasta> streaming
Aug 15 12:58:54 <cutmasta> from source XYZ
Aug 15 12:59:02 <cutmasta> when i am in my home wlan
Aug 15 12:59:09 <cutmasta> i want to stream from my pc
Aug 15 12:59:11 <zhobbs> yeah, we actually had that but cut it the day before the deadline
Aug 15 12:59:13 <alex2308> or when using 3G
Aug 15 12:59:15 <cutmasta> when i sit in the garden
Aug 15 12:59:32 <zhobbs> cause there was a MediaPlayer crash we couldn't figure out
Aug 15 12:59:52 <alex2308> btw, will it be free?
Aug 15 12:59:55 <zhobbs> yes
Aug 15 13:00:07 <alex2308> customer++;
Aug 15 13:01:22 <gambler> In AMERICA
Aug 15 13:01:29 <zhobbs> gambler: ?
Aug 15 13:01:31 <gambler> first you get the sugar
Aug 15 13:01:41 <gambler> then you get de power
Aug 15 13:01:50 <gambler> then you get the WOMEN
Aug 15 13:02:08 <gambler> the golden rule baby
Aug 15 13:02:15 <gambler> people with the gold make the rules
Aug 15 13:02:18 <gambler> right alex2308
Aug 15 13:02:18 <alex2308> afaik its a worldwide rule
Aug 15 13:03:41 <gambler> btw i know jasta and annoda are gone now but they really shouldnt be so dismissive of supermodels
Aug 15 13:03:53 <gambler> i highly reccomend them
Aug 15 13:14:15 <gambler> I wish there was a firefox addon that could auto-encrypt/decrypt arbitrary text boxes according to a precached key, greasemonkey style.
Aug 15 13:16:19 <alex2308> you could write an app that does so
Aug 15 13:17:53 <gambler> if I scratched every itch id never stop
Aug 15 13:18:22 <gambler> gotta prioritize those...besides for something like that id prefer to pay someone
Aug 15 13:19:03 <alex2308> what kind of encryption and which OS?
Aug 15 13:19:08 <alex2308> how much would you pay?
Aug 15 13:22:07 <gambler> firefox addons are cross platform...PCBC 3DES, blowfish and AES should be sufficient i suppose
Aug 15 13:22:39 <gambler> probably overkill to just make sure web service companies arent reading my data :p
Aug 15 13:22:39 <alex2308> i'd code it in .NET
Aug 15 13:23:11 <gambler> can you make it work with firefox?
Aug 15 13:23:37 <alex2308> could, but i dont get it
Aug 15 13:23:42 <gambler> pretty sure firefox add-ons are C++
Aug 15 13:23:43 <alex2308> you dont trust webservices?
Aug 15 13:23:51 <alex2308> theyre javascript afaik
Aug 15 13:24:11 <alex2308> if you dont trust webservices local encryption wont help you
Aug 15 13:24:12 <gambler> i dont want a webservice. I want a firefox addon
Aug 15 13:24:20 <alex2308> you should use certificates on both sides then
Aug 15 13:24:41 <gambler> you dont know much about security son ...i just want symmetric crypto
Aug 15 13:25:01 <gambler> there is no 'Alice'
Aug 15 13:25:09 <alex2308> on your webserver?
Aug 15 13:25:17 <alex2308> why not use ssh tunnels then?
Aug 15 13:26:07 <gambler> alex2308, maybe u misunderstood. im just looking for a way to use common webservices like (eg. google calendar) without actually giving up my privacy
Aug 15 13:26:33 <gambler> webservice not in the RPC sense
Aug 15 13:26:46 <gambler> in the sense of a service for a customer
Aug 15 13:27:10 <alex2308> and how would you tell google calendar your password and encryption?
Aug 15 13:27:10 <gambler> is that more clear?
Aug 15 13:27:31 <gambler> alex2308, do you know what greasemonkey is?
Aug 15 13:27:35 <alex2308> no
Aug 15 13:27:49 <gambler> if you find out, I think that will explain it
Aug 15 13:28:38 <alex2308> ive read the wikipedia article
Aug 15 13:28:42 <alex2308> its just local
Aug 15 13:29:01 <yakischloba> morning
Aug 15 13:29:05 <gambler> hi
Aug 15 13:29:58 <gambler> alex2308, right. so on my side it says "Send those prostitutes to alex2308's house" but on google's server they have stored "#$%^&*SSDSSSSDSS!!! D&*@[41"
Aug 15 13:30:17 <gambler> anyway forget it...it was just a thought
Aug 15 13:30:46 <alex2308> and they cant read it
Aug 15 13:31:12 <gambler> right
Aug 15 13:31:37 <gambler> because it encrypts before it POSTS and decrypts after it GETs but before it renders.
Aug 15 13:32:07 <alex2308> now i get it
Aug 15 13:32:22 <alex2308> you like the information to be stored encrypted on google servers, so google cant read it
Aug 15 13:32:28 <gambler> [x] lightbulb
Aug 15 13:32:34 <gambler> or any other company whos service i want to use
Aug 15 13:32:40 <alex2308> but you prefer to have it built into firefox, so there is nothing to worry about
Aug 15 13:32:44 <gambler> not necessarily google
Aug 15 13:33:23 <alex2308> k. its too much work to do in .net, better do it using firefox addons, i guess(?) its easier
Aug 15 13:33:31 <gambler> [ ] doesn't understand
Aug 15 13:33:35 <gambler> [x] understands
Aug 15 13:33:47 <gambler> righttttt
Aug 15 13:34:22 <gambler> anyway i dont think your the man for the job :> your management material
Aug 15 13:34:40 <alex2308> haha
Aug 15 13:34:58 <alex2308> im money oriented, you said youd pay so you got me listening ^^
Aug 15 13:36:39 <alex2308> but i can get you some chinese/indian coders to do the dirty work ^^
Aug 15 13:36:53 * zhobbs looks at muthu
Aug 15 13:37:47 <gambler> alex2308, ive got lots of chinese friends on MSN but thanks anyway
Aug 15 13:37:53 <alex2308> hehe ok
Aug 15 13:38:22 <gambler> zhobbs, ?
Aug 15 13:43:48 <zhobbs> gambler: ?
Aug 15 13:56:31 <gambler> actually found a FF extension that does it but its really cumbersome and manual
Aug 15 15:06:36 <plusminus_> hm...
Aug 15 15:08:08 <plusminus_> If T-Mobile really releases the HTC-Android-"Dream" and I guess the "Market" will follow pretty soon, there has to be a new SDK even sooner ... :/
Aug 15 15:08:48 <plusminus_> or what Apps will there be for download ^^
Aug 15 15:10:46 <alex2308> around 50 apps id say ;)
Aug 15 15:13:41 <plusminus_> don't think so...
Aug 15 15:14:08 <xolve> hi
Aug 15 15:14:43 <xolve> right now emulator doesn't support bluetooth. How can I check if my bluetooth app works fine?
Aug 15 15:16:13 <alex2308> sleep for a night or two
Aug 15 15:18:15 <xolve> alex2308: ??
Aug 15 15:19:03 <alex2308> and wait
Aug 15 15:24:34 <xolve> alex2308: any other way, like looking the outpur through the console
Aug 15 15:28:11 <xolve> *output
Aug 15 15:32:49 <alex2308> i dont know
Aug 15 15:36:29 <xolve> alex2308: thanks
Aug 15 15:43:16 * alex2308 is off (WEEEEEKEEEEND)
Aug 15 15:43:18 <alex2308> l8er
Aug 15 15:44:05 <yakischloba> yeah 'l8er' :)
Aug 15 15:50:58 <gambler> at least you gave that guy some solid help
Aug 15 15:52:28 <plusminus_> ^^
Aug 15 15:53:22 * morrildl quietly scratches out alex2308's name from his "hire for developer relations" list
Aug 15 15:56:16 <plusminus_> I'll send him that :P
Aug 15 15:56:31 <gambler> lol
Aug 15 15:57:03 <plusminus_> to tease him :D
Aug 15 15:57:20 <yakischloba> morrildl don't be so hasty, hes in the Enterprise Privacy Group for Deutsche Telekom! a heavy hitter
Aug 15 16:15:08 <yakischloba> lots of T-Mobile/HTC/Android articles this morning
Aug 15 17:21:53 * mrmime69 is booting up
Aug 15 17:22:45 <mrmime69> anyone here
Aug 15 17:22:47 <mrmime69> ?
Aug 15 17:28:13 <muthu> http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/8/an-early-gphone-review-android-is-powerful-but-no-iphone-goog-aapl-
Aug 15 17:34:06 <spykid> muthu: http://techmeme.com/ :D
Aug 15 17:35:42 <muthu> when's the exact date?
Aug 15 17:36:11 <muthu> this is exciting!
Aug 15 17:36:30 <yakischloba> I wish my phone could've waited another month or so to break.
Aug 15 17:37:39 <muthu> i'm buying it from india.. hope it comes here soon
Aug 15 18:17:02 <anno^da_> good evening
Aug 15 18:17:08 <anno^da_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxnWUbJJnlE
Aug 15 18:17:16 <anno^da_> I love the Pandora guy *haha*
Aug 15 18:18:15 <spykid> For "who cares about android"? This wasn't the Pandora guy
Aug 15 18:19:38 <spykid> It was http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dummer_August
Aug 15 18:20:09 <spykid> David Hornik, partner, August Capital
Aug 15 18:20:28 <anno^da_> ah thx.
Aug 15 18:20:41 <anno^da_> Oh heise has also taken up the rumours.
Aug 15 18:30:20 <jasta> yawn
Aug 15 18:41:22 <jasta> http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/8/an-early-gphone-review-android-is-powerful-but-no-iphone-goog-aapl -- hmm.
Aug 15 18:42:25 <jasta> so how come the SDK didn't follow "release early, release often", but apparently the phones themselves will? *grin*
Aug 15 18:47:00 <spykid> jasta: I'm quite sure that AlleyInsider didn't see the phone
Aug 15 18:47:59 <jasta> i'm sure not, but don't you get that impression from M5?
Aug 15 18:48:19 <jasta> Assuming that M5 is more or less what you get, with maybe some minor animation/graphics tweaks...
Aug 15 18:48:58 <jasta> Seems like maybe they should have dumped another 6 months into it or so to polish once they got everything nailed down.
Aug 15 18:53:41 <jasta> hehe: http://xkcd.org/463/
Aug 15 19:41:03 <jasta> that was weird
Aug 15 19:41:16 <jasta> i think someone just tried to phish me, calling my cell phone directly to do it
Aug 15 19:42:09 <jasta> some company called me regarding an "important business matter" and asked for the last _6_ of my social security #
Aug 15 19:42:39 <jasta> i told them whatever they wanted to ask me they should notify me of via the mail, and then they claimed they didn't have my address.
Aug 15 19:42:54 <anno^da_> lol
Aug 15 19:42:58 <anno^da_> telephon spam :)
Aug 15 19:43:00 <jasta> so i absically said "well, if you don't have my address, then i doubt we have any business together." and they happily accepted that
Aug 15 19:44:14 <anno^da_> Oh I've "won" millions of euros and a lot of cars on the telephon :P. I hate that companies selling private data.
Aug 15 19:44:44 <jasta> anno^da_: well, in the US, it is illegal for telemarketers to use auto-dialers on cell phones.
Aug 15 19:45:07 <jasta> so generally cell phone users do not get solicitors
Aug 15 19:45:14 <jasta> i asked them if this was an unsolicited call and they said no.
Aug 15 19:45:23 <anno^da_> Well even in Germany it is illegal but they dont really care.
Aug 15 19:45:35 <jasta> but then i don't know what they're talking about, and i'm not going to just randomly give out reall sensitive information like that
Aug 15 19:45:57 <jasta> it is somewhat common for companies to ask for the last 4 of your social security for verification purposes
Aug 15 19:46:00 <jasta> (even then i rarely give it out)
Aug 15 19:46:10 <jasta> but the last 6 i've never heard of, so it right away felt fishy.
Aug 15 19:46:12 <anno^da_> Yeah I can understand that
Aug 15 19:46:17 <jasta> and they wanted my birth date and last 6, which is a LOT of information.
Aug 15 19:46:54 * jasta hates giving out personal information.  i outright refuse in most cases and have to fight with managers about it.
Aug 15 19:47:13 <anno^da_> Well yeah. But they will succed with a lot of other people.
Aug 15 19:47:48 * anno^da_ is looking at facebook and the people loving to give out every private information about them.
Aug 15 19:48:04 <jasta> i once had a reservation at a hotel in some nowhere town and they asked for my social security number, in full.  i refused, fought with the manager, and eventually had to go find another place to stay.
Aug 15 19:48:32 <anno^da_> well but from my point of view it was worth searching a new hotel
Aug 15 19:49:16 <jasta> the real problem, as i see it, is that this information is entirely too powerful.
Aug 15 19:49:44 <jasta> having a personal relationship with someone will give you like 90% of the information you need to rip them off.
Aug 15 19:49:56 <jasta> knowing their birth date, address, full name, etc.
Aug 15 19:50:04 <anno^da_> true.
Aug 15 19:50:11 <jasta> you can usually get full bank account numbers from their mail.
Aug 15 19:50:21 <jasta> and all that together can be very powerful, where it should not be.
Aug 15 19:52:12 <anno^da_> But well look at the social networks. It is really easy do to some social engineering there. You can find so much informations about people. The problem is that the most people dont think about that. They just love giving out the information.
Aug 15 23:04:25 <mohbana> hi
Aug 15 23:05:04 <jasta> hello
Aug 15 23:06:44 <mohbana> why are people so sceptical about android?
Aug 15 23:08:21 <jasta> well, there are a lot of reasons.
Aug 15 23:09:14 <jasta> first off, developers are having a hard time translating the abstract SDK and emulator into a real phone platform, both because it is currently so old and also because it targets a different sort of purpose than demonstrating a phone stack.
Aug 15 23:09:42 <jasta> For example, there's no SMS app, calendar, the dialer is primitive, etc.  it's very abstract in that sense, and is hard to realize somethign concrete from it.
Aug 15 23:10:43 <jasta> Second, the most recent public release was M5, which came in early February.  So the general development community has been working since with no new features, polish, etc.
Aug 15 23:11:30 <jasta> Third, Google has been scared with any useful details to date.  There are numerous systems in the "latest" (5 month old) SDK that seem to just dead-end.  No explanation or clarifications from Google for almost a year now leads most people to doubt that they really have a sensible plan.
Aug 15 23:11:58 <jasta> Likewise, Google has forced ADC winners to private sign an NDA to get access to newer updates, which has many folks concerned that the product isn't "ready to go", and Google is scrambling.
Aug 15 23:12:08 <michaelnovakjr__> howdy
Aug 15 23:12:25 <michaelnovakjr__> zdnet ran that story about existing tmobile customers only getting phones first
Aug 15 23:12:29 <jasta> mohbana: On top of that we see that Android is trying to shake things up in a traditionally stagnant industry, so, yeah, there's reason to doubt.
Aug 15 23:12:34 <michaelnovakjr__> and that it'll cost 400 bucks
Aug 15 23:12:39 <karmakomik> I think it is mainly coz there havent been any android phones released until now ... even though Google has said it will happen at any point in the 2nd half of 2008 ... And also with symbian going open source n all ...
Aug 15 23:13:06 <michaelnovakjr__> zdnet rumor has sept 17th as the date for tmobile
Aug 15 23:13:38 <karmakomik> Limo is also going pretty strong ... mostly supported by the same companies who promote android
Aug 15 23:13:41 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: *sigh*, this thing is gonna flop ;)
Aug 15 23:13:48 <michaelnovakjr__> yea
Aug 15 23:13:56 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, its a shame
Aug 15 23:14:10 <michaelnovakjr__> its quite an elegant system
Aug 15 23:14:16 <karmakomik> maybe not ..... Android has done a good job shaking the industry
Aug 15 23:14:21 <jasta> karmakomik: LiMo and Android have almost nothing in common.
Aug 15 23:14:35 <michaelnovakjr__> that goes to show what happens when the business management guys get involved
Aug 15 23:14:43 <jasta> karmakomik: Actually, Google has come right out and said several times now that they don't intend to change the industry directly.  They're only hoping to "lead by example", and trust the carriers to voluntarily follow them.
Aug 15 23:15:02 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: android hasn't shaken anything up
Aug 15 23:15:11 <michaelnovakjr__> they haven't released a public sdk since feb
Aug 15 23:15:13 <karmakomik> jasta: I never said so did I? except that it is supported by Motorola n other companies who are also supporting Android
Aug 15 23:15:23 <mohbana> why didn't google just use the sun vm?
Aug 15 23:15:23 <jasta> karmakomik: That's just diversification.
Aug 15 23:15:38 <jasta> mohbana: Several reasons, both technical and political.
Aug 15 23:15:55 <karmakomik> sun vm is just bloatware
Aug 15 23:15:57 <jasta> Sun's VM is not light, and J2ME is restrictive (again both politically and technically)
Aug 15 23:16:19 <jasta> Also, Google needed to ensure all aspects of the project could be distributed under the Apache license.
Aug 15 23:16:22 <michaelnovakjr__> definitely..... i am still debating even waiting for an android device
Aug 15 23:16:35 <michaelnovakjr__> might just pass it over
Aug 15 23:16:49 <michaelnovakjr__> i haven't seen anything recently to make me want one
Aug 15 23:16:56 <jasta> I'll buy one, but I am unsure if I'll use it as my main phone.
Aug 15 23:17:10 <michaelnovakjr__> i am thinking about an iphone
Aug 15 23:17:16 <michaelnovakjr__> not for development, but just to be a user
Aug 15 23:17:18 <jasta> If Android had never been announced, I would've bought an iPhone ages ago.
Aug 15 23:17:31 <michaelnovakjr__> from a user perspective its amazing
Aug 15 23:17:41 <jasta> Yeah, I've used it many times.  Impressive devices.
Aug 15 23:17:41 <michaelnovakjr__> i probably wouldn't write anything for it though
Aug 15 23:17:49 <karmakomik> michaelnovakjr: I have to respectfully disagree. Android has brought the concept that the software platform for mobiles is more important than the mobiles themselves ... essentially trying to free the mobile app industry from the shackles of equipment manufacturers
Aug 15 23:17:52 <michaelnovakjr__> i like the lastfm app for it
Aug 15 23:18:11 <jasta> What tickles me is that Romain's attitude is so clearly that he just wants stuff to work and doesn't care about open source, freedom, etc.  Whereas the only thing binding me to Android is that it's open.  If not for that, the iPhone clearly dominates ;)
Aug 15 23:18:14 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: that relies on us seeing devices that work
Aug 15 23:18:14 <mohbana> does it run any language that compiles to bytecode?
Aug 15 23:18:20 <mohbana> for instance would it run scala?
Aug 15 23:18:30 <jasta> mohbana: It does run Scala, yes.  But I woulnd't say "any".
Aug 15 23:18:40 <jasta> Dalvik has its own share of quirks.
Aug 15 23:19:06 <michaelnovakjr__> the iphone has a very elegant design, and i am certainly thinking about getting one next month
Aug 15 23:19:18 <jasta> mohbana: I know this was't directly your question but I will say that Android is technically an amazing product.  Very ambitious, and very well executed.
Aug 15 23:19:32 <jasta> But not everyone is convinced that will trnaslate to a good *phone*.
Aug 15 23:19:58 <Dougie187> whoa whoa whoa...
Aug 15 23:20:00 <Dougie187> october?
Aug 15 23:20:22 <romainguy_> jasta: What tickles me is that Romain's attitude is so clearly that he just wants stuff to work and doesn't care about open source, freedom, etc. << that's totally untrue
Aug 15 23:20:22 <jasta> mohbana: Many of us here have spent the last 8 months working with it, and still remain skeptical that it will find consumer success.
Aug 15 23:20:43 <romainguy_> I've been involved with Open Source projects for a very long time
Aug 15 23:20:53 <jasta> romainguy_: No?  Then why did you say that before? :)
Aug 15 23:20:53 <Dougie187> but srsly... october?
Aug 15 23:20:58 <romainguy_> and one of the reasons why I'm on Android is because it's Open Source
Aug 15 23:21:06 <jasta> Dougie187: What?
Aug 15 23:21:22 <Dougie187> i just read the whole tmobile october thing.
Aug 15 23:21:36 <romainguy_> jasta: No, I was saying that even though I like Open Source, I don't mind proprietary software
Aug 15 23:21:38 <romainguy_> there's value in both
Aug 15 23:21:47 <michaelnovakjr__> Dougie187: i saw sept 17th for tmobile
Aug 15 23:21:56 <Dougie187> http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/15/t-mobile-to-sell-first-android-phone-in-october/
Aug 15 23:21:59 <romainguy_> and I am not convinced that open source software is necessarily better than proprietary
Aug 15 23:22:08 <michaelnovakjr__> look at the iphone
Aug 15 23:22:13 <jasta> romainguy_: You told me that you prefer things to work, be intuitive, and pretty.
Aug 15 23:22:16 <romainguy_> I'd love to use only Open Source stuff, but when proprietary is better...
Aug 15 23:22:17 <jasta> You said exactly that once.
Aug 15 23:22:20 <romainguy_> so?
Aug 15 23:22:23 <jasta> And that it doesn't matter to if you that comes as open source or not.
Aug 15 23:22:57 <Dougie187> are we having more open source arguments in here?
Aug 15 23:23:03 <jasta> Well, you're the only one with access to the "real" Android.  Be honest with yourself: does it just work, is more intuitive, and prettier than the iPhone?
Aug 15 23:23:09 <karmakomik> open source or otherwise is clearly besides the point .... we need to have in the mobile industry a s/w platform like windows xp for the pc market ...
Aug 15 23:23:27 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: the iphone does provide that
Aug 15 23:23:32 <romainguy_> jasta: I have an iPhone and I work on Android
Aug 15 23:23:35 <jasta> Because to me, the attraction for Android is precisely that it is to be opened.  I would be surprised to find that it can win over the iPhone on form and function directly.
Aug 15 23:23:39 <romainguy_> so I have both :)
Aug 15 23:23:48 <romainguy_> open source + prettiness
Aug 15 23:23:57 <jasta> romainguy_: I guess my point was that it tickles me to know you may well be happier to keep the iPhone after Android launches.
Aug 15 23:24:02 <jasta> Even if you're unwilling to admit it to us ;)
Aug 15 23:24:12 <romainguy_> I'm not unwilling to admit anything
Aug 15 23:24:12 <karmakomik> an iphone is like a rolls royce and an android like a volkwagen
Aug 15 23:24:27 <romainguy_> Im actually willing to admit I use both iPhone and Android every day
Aug 15 23:24:31 <romainguy_> for different purposes
Aug 15 23:24:40 <AttractiveApe> karmakomik: we don't even know what kind of car android will be yet.
Aug 15 23:24:44 <karmakomik> romainguy: agree with you
Aug 15 23:24:55 <michaelnovakjr__> romainguy_ not sure that is what people are going to be looking for
Aug 15 23:25:05 <karmakomik> AttractiveApe: ha ha ... thats true
Aug 15 23:25:06 <michaelnovakjr__> i certainly only want one device
Aug 15 23:25:20 <romainguy_> michaelnovakjr__: I'm talking about me, not other people
Aug 15 23:25:38 <michaelnovakjr__> i want to ditch my ipod and keep one device
Aug 15 23:25:55 <karmakomik> Being a Java programmer ... I certainly took to Android ... I would hate to see it being a failure
Aug 15 23:25:56 <michaelnovakjr__> whether that be an iphone or an android phone.... i only want one device
Aug 15 23:26:41 <umdk1d4> i want a cookie
Aug 15 23:26:45 <karmakomik>  michaelnovakjr: may I remind you that the iPhone and android are meant for different markets??
Aug 15 23:26:49 <Dougie187> i wanna know about october.
Aug 15 23:27:15 <karmakomik> umdk1d4: yes webkit does support cookie management
Aug 15 23:27:21 <umdk1d4> LOL
Aug 15 23:27:26 <karmakomik> October is a month
Aug 15 23:27:36 <Dougie187> thank you karmakomik
Aug 15 23:27:40 <umdk1d4> :)
Aug 15 23:27:40 <Dougie187> very helpful.
Aug 15 23:27:40 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: what do you mean different markets
Aug 15 23:27:49 <jasta> romainguy_: This market does not generally support folks who want to use two phones.
Aug 15 23:28:05 <morrildl> jasta: it most definitely does in Europe.
Aug 15 23:28:11 <morrildl> cell phone penetration there is > 100%.
Aug 15 23:28:21 <Dougie187> morrildl: october?
Aug 15 23:28:28 <michaelnovakjr__> morrildl: i only want one device
Aug 15 23:28:37 <karmakomik> iPhone is clearly for the high end smartphone market while Android will be initially aimed at the low and mid range markets
Aug 15 23:28:39 <romainguy_> jasta: did I talk about people who want two phones? I said that **I** am happy using two phones
Aug 15 23:28:48 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: that isn't entirely true
Aug 15 23:28:53 <umdk1d4> mmm i think they will still have comparable hardware
Aug 15 23:28:55 <jasta> karmakomik: i don't know about that.  the pricing is likely to be quite similar.
Aug 15 23:28:58 <michaelnovakjr__> with a rumor of the phone costing 400 big ones :)
Aug 15 23:29:07 <jasta> karmakomik: The HTC device certainly isn't gonna be cheap, I know that much.  Their devices never are :)
Aug 15 23:29:10 <umdk1d4> i dont think ihpone will have "premeum" hardware
Aug 15 23:29:17 <karmakomik> not true .... maybe in the future ... but as of now that is the truth
Aug 15 23:29:17 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, and certainly not the best
Aug 15 23:29:27 <michaelnovakjr__> apple has the hardware down like a science
Aug 15 23:29:37 <tomgibara_> jasta: morrildl's right based on my experience - most people I know have more than one phone
Aug 15 23:29:52 <Dougie187> i dont know anyone who has more then one phone.
Aug 15 23:29:55 <Dougie187> except my dad
Aug 15 23:30:04 <karmakomik> jasta: for HTC phones u also pay for the windows license that u wont have to for android
Aug 15 23:30:06 <Dougie187> but its just dumb to have more then one phone.
Aug 15 23:30:06 <michaelnovakjr__> i don't either and would find that annoying
Aug 15 23:30:08 <Dougie187> what the hells the point.
Aug 15 23:30:08 <umdk1d4> tomgibara_: but do they WANT >1 phone, or do they just deal with it becasu its the current state of things?
Aug 15 23:30:11 <Dougie187> me too
Aug 15 23:30:15 <Dougie187> i dont want 2 phones.
Aug 15 23:30:19 <jasta> karmakomik: That's not very much AFAIK.  I think it's like $80.
Aug 15 23:30:19 <Dougie187> its hard enough to manage one.
Aug 15 23:30:23 <romainguy_> Dougie187: what about one for personal use and one for work?
Aug 15 23:30:24 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: the rumor is the HTC phone will cost 400 dollars
Aug 15 23:30:36 <tomgibara_> umdk1d4: Simply because they accumlate them I guess
Aug 15 23:30:37 <Dougie187> i would prefer to have them together.
Aug 15 23:30:39 <romainguy_> that's what I do
Aug 15 23:30:42 <karmakomik> 400 $???
Aug 15 23:30:43 <romainguy_> what's what many friends of mine do
Aug 15 23:30:44 <umdk1d4> michaelnovakjr__: thats prolly before subsidised
Aug 15 23:30:49 <jasta> romainguy_: the only reason people use a separate phone for work is because they have a crappy work phone, like Windows Mobile.
Aug 15 23:30:53 <tomgibara_> Let's put it this way: how many people here have only one computer?
Aug 15 23:30:55 <umdk1d4> Dougie187: im in the same boat, i want it all in one
Aug 15 23:30:59 <umdk1d4> but i deal with 3 atm
Aug 15 23:30:59 <Dougie187> and if that was really something that needed to be done, i would leave my work one somewhere and have calls forwarded to my personal one.
Aug 15 23:31:04 <michaelnovakjr__> tomgibara_: computers and phones are different
Aug 15 23:31:10 <Dougie187> all i really need is a work number.
Aug 15 23:31:10 <jasta> tomgibara_: Phones go in your pocket.  Computers don't.
Aug 15 23:31:11 <michaelnovakjr__> i have like 10 computers but only one phone
Aug 15 23:31:13 <plusminus_> damn it, I suddenly get a "ERROR/JavaBinder(517): java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: provider=gps"
Aug 15 23:31:31 <Dougie187> and that can be accomplished from a work land line too. just forward calls to your cell.
Aug 15 23:31:34 <plusminus_> at ... at ... at... "ERROR/AndroidRuntime(1495):     at android.location.LocationManager.createProvider(LocationManager.java:61) "
Aug 15 23:31:42 <michaelnovakjr__> i was very happy with android, but that has slowly faded
Aug 15 23:31:46 <karmakomik> jasta: u said it dude
Aug 15 23:31:52 <umdk1d4> tomgibara_: its easy to leave computers at home in the corner running, but not as easy to carry multiple phones
Aug 15 23:32:13 <umdk1d4> yea, jasta makes a good point
Aug 15 23:32:54 <michaelnovakjr__> i have a phone and an ipod on me all the time
Aug 15 23:33:00 <tomgibara_> I'm simply pointing out that most of the population probably own one computer - developers may have many because each one serves a different purpos
Aug 15 23:33:09 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: and i bet you'd like to consolidate? :)
Aug 15 23:33:17 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, very much so
Aug 15 23:33:19 <Dougie187> i sure as hell would.
Aug 15 23:33:19 <umdk1d4> tomgibara_: similar argument about stereo systems
Aug 15 23:33:23 <tomgibara_> The people I know have many because to them, each phone has different strengths/purposes
Aug 15 23:33:24 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, that is why i am leaning towards an iphone
Aug 15 23:33:29 <Dougie187> id super glue them together if it would work how i want.
Aug 15 23:33:29 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 15 23:33:39 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, between the lastfm streaming and the ipod software, that's hard to compete with
Aug 15 23:33:41 <umdk1d4> back in the 80s, everyone had components, and audiophiles didnt like the all-in-ones
Aug 15 23:33:46 <umdk1d4> but consumers loved em
Aug 15 23:33:52 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, i got skyfire for win mo
Aug 15 23:34:21 <tomgibara_> One work one perhaps, one home one on contract, and perhaps even one pay-as-you go phone for knocking about with
Aug 15 23:34:50 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: well, keep an open mind for Five ;)
Aug 15 23:34:50 <karmakomik> hey did any of u hear? HSBC is going to replace its balckberries with the iphone ... http://www.seo-webdesign.in/services/apple-iphone-may-replace-blackberry-by-hsbc130.html
Aug 15 23:34:53 <tomgibara_> I'm not saying its needed or wanted, but it is certainly tolerated
Aug 15 23:35:09 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, that's why i am hoping android is good
Aug 15 23:35:13 <Dougie187> im waiting for five!
Aug 15 23:35:16 <tomgibara_> In the same way that developers tolerate, and perhaps even enjoy, being able to choose from a pool of computers
Aug 15 23:35:22 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, at least i know there's a good music app
Aug 15 23:35:29 <AttractiveApe> I have all of my travelling music on my vogue, and it works well.
Aug 15 23:35:30 <umdk1d4> ooh jasta question, does five do remote control of another media player?
Aug 15 23:35:33 <michaelnovakjr__> as far as the other apps.... i'm not holding my breath
Aug 15 23:35:34 <umdk1d4> on your desktop for instance
Aug 15 23:35:36 <karmakomik> tomgibara: bad analogy ..
Aug 15 23:35:45 <Dougie187> ok ok guys...
Aug 15 23:35:46 <AttractiveApe> umdk1d4: ... no.
Aug 15 23:35:47 <Dougie187> but seriously.
Aug 15 23:35:48 <Dougie187> october?
Aug 15 23:36:00 <umdk1d4> cuz i was writing a dbus/dcop client the other day to control amarok/vlc remotely
Aug 15 23:36:06 <tomgibara_> karmakomik: most analogies usually are ;)
Aug 15 23:36:08 <umdk1d4> found some other solutions too
Aug 15 23:36:17 <umdk1d4> i would totally use the remote
Aug 15 23:36:20 <karmakomik>  Dougie187: Dude ... u have some serious "october" issues dont ya??
Aug 15 23:36:30 <Dougie187> http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/15/t-mobile-to-sell-first-android-phone-in-october/
Aug 15 23:36:30 <Dougie187> ?
Aug 15 23:36:32 <umdk1d4> lol october
Aug 15 23:36:46 <karmakomik> tomgibara: well ... i agree with you on that one
Aug 15 23:37:03 <jasta> umdk1d4: not currently, but i am thinking about it.
Aug 15 23:37:03 <karmakomik> all hail october
Aug 15 23:37:25 <jasta> umdk1d4: isnce it has access to your home machine so directly, and all your home meta data, i thought about having a simple remote control mode where choosing the songs on the device is really just asking the computer to play them
Aug 15 23:37:33 <umdk1d4> btw quick poll of desktops for everyone in here?  i use linux+amarok for my music
Aug 15 23:37:37 <michaelnovakjr__> i'll have an iphone by then unless there's an appealing android sdk release before a week from today
Aug 15 23:37:52 <umdk1d4> jasta: for metadata, does it connect to amarok mysql?  ;)  that would be awesome if it did
Aug 15 23:37:58 <michaelnovakjr__> umdk1d4: linux rythmbox and mac/itunes
Aug 15 23:38:11 <Dougie187> linux+rhythmbox right now.. amarok is cool too though
Aug 15 23:38:13 <jasta> umdk1d4: No, the server collects and provides its own meta data.
Aug 15 23:38:14 <umdk1d4> does mac have anyhting like dbus/dcop for RPC to apps?
Aug 15 23:38:14 <karmakomik> the reason why I really want to get my hands on the android is mainly coz of the accelerometer functionality
Aug 15 23:38:36 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: the iphone has that
Aug 15 23:38:47 <michaelnovakjr__> you can get the drink the beer app that uses it!!
Aug 15 23:38:53 <umdk1d4> karmakomik: deffy  :)  im glad they have a second contest, cuz so many apps we havent even imagined yet
Aug 15 23:38:56 <Dougie187> so... guys... october? has anyone else hear this or anything?
Aug 15 23:39:05 <umdk1d4> lol Dougie187
Aug 15 23:39:09 <Dougie187> ... really im just going to keep asking until someone resposnds...
Aug 15 23:39:09 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 15 23:39:09 <jasta> bbl guys
Aug 15 23:39:10 <michaelnovakjr__> Dougie187: SEPT 17!!!!!!!!!!!!
Aug 15 23:39:14 <umdk1d4> OMG!!!!
Aug 15 23:39:18 <umdk1d4> lol
Aug 15 23:39:19 <Dougie187> Whered you hear that michaelnovakjr__?
Aug 15 23:39:19 <jasta> Dougie187: we are hearing that is is soon, for sure.
Aug 15 23:39:20 <michaelnovakjr__> Dougie187: look at zdenet.com
Aug 15 23:39:20 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 15 23:39:21 <karmakomik> michaelnovakjr: I can't write my own code and upload it on the iphone can I??
Aug 15 23:39:23 <michaelnovakjr__> zdnet.com
Aug 15 23:39:29 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: you can
Aug 15 23:39:38 <Dougie187> i wanna know sprints dates.
Aug 15 23:39:47 <michaelnovakjr__> Dougie187: don't hold your breath
Aug 15 23:39:52 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 15 23:39:53 <karmakomik> michaelnovakjr: through jailbreaking maybe
Aug 15 23:39:56 <umdk1d4> lol http://blogs.zdnet.com/Google/?p=1118   17th article
Aug 15 23:40:01 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: not at all
Aug 15 23:40:37 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: you can build legit apps for the iphone
Aug 15 23:40:39 <karmakomik> michaelnovakjr: oh comeon .. u can install apps purchased from the online apple store only!!
Aug 15 23:40:42 <Dougie187> damnit that garrett rogers guy is creepy looking.
Aug 15 23:40:51 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: you can write them though!!
Aug 15 23:41:01 <michaelnovakjr__> Dougie187: very creepy
Aug 15 23:41:12 <Dougie187> he makes me want to punch him.
Aug 15 23:41:18 <michaelnovakjr__> he actually has two pictures on the site... it looks like two different guys
Aug 15 23:41:19 <umdk1d4> o.o
Aug 15 23:41:32 <Dougie187> he looks like he would stalk my wife.
Aug 15 23:41:37 <Dougie187> and make me knife him in the stomach.
Aug 15 23:41:40 <michaelnovakjr__> Dougie187: that must be his makeup pic
Aug 15 23:41:53 <umdk1d4> hmm someone should announce that android has actually already launched, and you could have bought handsets back in june
Aug 15 23:42:04 <umdk1d4> like some sort of bad dream
Aug 15 23:42:07 <karmakomik> michaelnovakjr: what ??!! are u out of ur mind? how can u compare the convenience of simply tranferring a program from the pc to the android after coding with the tedious task of uploading it on the apple store and then installing it??
Aug 15 23:42:29 <umdk1d4> well uploading AND waiting for approval
Aug 15 23:42:45 <jasta> karmakomik: well, android will have an app store too.
Aug 15 23:42:47 <karmakomik> and the apple store also charges money for hosting apps
Aug 15 23:43:17 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: i like the iphone for the users point of view
Aug 15 23:43:18 <karmakomik> jasta: I know ... but I can also do my own hacks w/o anyone bothering me
Aug 15 23:44:09 <karmakomik> michaelnovakjr: i totally get u dude ..... Android is nothing compared to the iphone .... but it can play catch up ... :)
Aug 15 23:44:29 <plusminus_> I hope the Android-"Appstore" will not charge like 30-50% as I fear it bc of:...
Aug 15 23:44:36 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: its got a long way based on the top 50 :)
Aug 15 23:44:58 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: i wrote a few apps for android on the vogue..... but i stopped using it
Aug 15 23:45:02 <plusminus_> http://groups.google.com/group/android-discuss/msg/d6923ae652ad95f2
Aug 15 23:45:06 <karmakomik> michaelnovakjr: he he ... yes thats sadly true
Aug 15 23:45:06 <michaelnovakjr__> i have to put it back on
Aug 15 23:47:30 <michaelnovakjr__> i like the android platform for development, but i don't have faith handset makers are any good
Aug 15 23:47:54 <karmakomik> I heard that some silicon valley VC firm recently started a fund exclusively for startups making iphone apps!
Aug 15 23:48:09 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: that happened a while ago
Aug 15 23:48:40 <mohbana> what phone will ship android in the uk?
Aug 15 23:48:46 <umdk1d4> WOA /me just realizeds something
Aug 15 23:48:57 <umdk1d4> could you REPLACE the google app store with your own!?!?
Aug 15 23:49:03 <umdk1d4> just like all the other stuff?
Aug 15 23:49:18 <michaelnovakjr__> ??
Aug 15 23:49:20 <jasta> umdk1d4: who knows.  maybe you can, maybe you can't.
Aug 15 23:49:42 <jasta> i mean, depends on what intents it uses, who it ues them, how the carriers combine it all, etc.
Aug 15 23:49:50 <umdk1d4> hopefully its repository-based, like debian
Aug 15 23:49:51 <karmakomik> yes ... android did change the perception in the mobile industry though ... people are now more focussed on uniformity in app dev .... with symbian going open, we will see a very interesting future for Mobile phone s/w with or without android ...
Aug 15 23:49:56 <umdk1d4> so easy to add non-free repos, etc
Aug 15 23:50:19 <michaelnovakjr__> who knows
Aug 15 23:50:34 <michaelnovakjr__> my confidence is completely deflated
Aug 15 23:50:42 <karmakomik> hmm
Aug 15 23:50:45 <michaelnovakjr__> i fear a very rocky launch
Aug 15 23:50:54 <jasta> ditto
Aug 15 23:51:04 <michaelnovakjr__> if that happens it'll sink like the titanic
Aug 15 23:51:18 <jasta> maybe they will surprise, but the reality is that we know nothing about the platform.  we have absolutely no reason to think we will love it.
Aug 15 23:51:21 <michaelnovakjr__> all those people waiting to see will jump for the iphone
Aug 15 23:51:50 <jasta> and a few reason to think we'll hate it.  like T-Mobile carrying it in the US  *groan*
Aug 15 23:52:11 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, yea that sucks
Aug 15 23:52:39 <karmakomik> michaelnovakjr : well ... let's hope that celine dion doesnt do the soundtrack for the commemorative film about android  ...
Aug 15 23:52:42 <jasta> but, i will give them the benefit of the doubt when it launches.
Aug 15 23:52:53 <jasta> i'm nervous now, but i don't know one or way or another.  i don't know what it will be at all.
Aug 15 23:52:56 <michaelnovakjr__> jasta, keyword is when
Aug 15 23:52:58 <jasta> none of us have seen ANY of the phone itself.
Aug 15 23:53:15 <jasta> we've seen the platform, but stripped of everything that makes it a real smartphone
Aug 15 23:53:22 <michaelnovakjr__> yea
Aug 15 23:53:27 <michaelnovakjr__> except my SMS app :)
Aug 15 23:53:37 <karmakomik> but it has huge potential though
Aug 15 23:54:21 <karmakomik> you have a huge java developer community waiting to jump into the bandwagon if android really takes off
Aug 15 23:54:36 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: i don't know if the size of the community matters
Aug 15 23:54:42 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: i want quality apps
Aug 15 23:54:44 <mohbana> what phone will ship android in the uk?
Aug 15 23:54:55 <michaelnovakjr__> mohbana: no one knows
Aug 15 23:55:04 <karmakomik> Quality will come ...... in time
Aug 15 23:55:14 <michaelnovakjr__> that isn't good karmakomik
Aug 15 23:55:22 <karmakomik> I know :(
Aug 15 23:55:27 <tomgibara_> karmakomik: on what basis? Like windows?
Aug 15 23:55:57 <karmakomik> tomgibara: exactly .... that is what I had in mind
Aug 15 23:56:24 <michaelnovakjr__> ??
Aug 15 23:56:26 <tomgibara_> I draw the opposite conclusion
Aug 15 23:56:53 <tomgibara_> One of the things that excites me about Android is that it seems so well engineered
Aug 15 23:57:00 <karmakomik> tomgibara : well we all have our preferences
Aug 15 23:57:06 <tomgibara_> Anyone with broad enough experience will see that
Aug 15 23:57:30 <tomgibara_> And if it catches on it could teach a generation of developers how to do things
Aug 15 23:57:38 <michaelnovakjr__> tomgibara_: right now that is the only thing android has going for it
Aug 15 23:57:43 <karmakomik> tomgibara:with a well engineered base .... you can expect quality apps to come off it
Aug 15 23:57:56 <michaelnovakjr__> i enjoy writing software for it because the APIs are nicely done
Aug 15 23:58:05 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: not exactly though
Aug 15 23:58:06 <tomgibara_> exactly, but once you ship a poor base, it's mostly too late
Aug 15 23:58:33 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: java is one of those languages that can have really bad software and really good software because its an easy language to learn
Aug 15 23:58:55 <gambler> umdk1d4, my home theatre is powered by windows MCE, after rejecting most all crap open source solutions...
Aug 15 23:59:05 <umdk1d4> hmm
Aug 15 23:59:07 <gambler> XBMC though is very close to passing the 'wife/gf' test though.
Aug 15 23:59:19 <umdk1d4> gambler: do you know what kind of RPC windows offers?
Aug 15 23:59:23 <karmakomik> michaelnovakjr: with a google (or some other hosting service) having an android store ... we can sift through the crap
Aug 15 23:59:25 <umdk1d4> other than global shortcuts?
Aug 15 23:59:43 <umdk1d4> and so we would insert an app that sends those global shortcuts to the listening app
Aug 15 23:59:48 <umdk1d4> might be lower level windows api calls
Aug 15 23:59:57 <umdk1d4> specifiaclly i think windows+itunes is a good target
Aug 16 00:00:07 <umdk1d4> not sure what mac offers for IPC/RPC
Aug 16 00:00:11 <michaelnovakjr__> karmakomik: i fear the software offerings will resemble win mobile
Aug 16 00:00:24 <michaelnovakjr__> few good apps, lots of crappy apps
Aug 16 00:00:28 <karmakomik> gambler: have you tried Eliza, linux mce, entertainer ....
Aug 16 00:00:30 <gambler> umdk1d4, there are alot of things windows uses for RPC, DCE, MAPI, COM I think
Aug 16 00:00:40 <gambler> umdk1d4, im just using the windows MCE remote
Aug 16 00:00:48 <umdk1d4> hmm i wonder what various apps expose through their RPC interfaces
Aug 16 00:00:59 <umdk1d4> COM might be hard to workwith
Aug 16 00:01:06 <umdk1d4> COM is usually activex, and not existing processes
Aug 16 00:01:10 <gambler> karmakomik, i tried eliza, mms, mythtv, mce  ... not entertainer
Aug 16 00:01:18 <gambler> karmakomik, whats entertainer?
Aug 16 00:01:59 * umdk1d4 hugs mythtv
Aug 16 00:02:48 <gambler> I didnt see anything that could hold a candel to xmbc for an open source solution
Aug 16 00:02:49 <umdk1d4> gambler: how easy is XBMC developemnt?  (like running a background process)
Aug 16 00:03:06 <umdk1d4> to listen on a IP socket for commands
Aug 16 00:03:07 <gambler> umdk1d4, I dont know but it has a plugin architecture
Aug 16 00:03:10 <karmakomik> gambler:it's a media center for linux ...
Aug 16 00:03:17 <gambler> karmakomik, linky?
Aug 16 00:03:28 <gambler> umdk1d4, I assume it would be pretty straightforward
Aug 16 00:04:35 <karmakomik> gambler:http://www.entertainer-project.com/
Aug 16 00:04:55 <umdk1d4> ill prolly start by writing the dbus version first--gotta figure out how to tunnel dbus calls to dcop for amarok 1.5 series
Aug 16 00:05:02 <umdk1d4> 2.0 is supposta suport dbus i hear
Aug 16 00:05:20 <michaelnovakjr__> ok, back to compiler programming... later :)
Aug 16 00:05:21 <umdk1d4> dbus is where things are moving for kde4 iirc
Aug 16 00:05:22 <gambler> umdk1d4, the first thing you realize after you start using anyRemote is ....although the interface is awesome, a phone sucks as a remote control
Aug 16 00:05:29 <gambler> at least the way we treat remote controls in our house
Aug 16 00:05:49 <umdk1d4> gambler: could android change that?
Aug 16 00:06:09 <umdk1d4> or just in general they dont work well (form factor,etc)
Aug 16 00:07:29 <umdk1d4> gambler: ooh   http://www.tuaw.com/2007/07/30/use-your-iphone-as-an-xbmc-remote/
Aug 16 00:07:36 <umdk1d4> looks like just a web-face tho
Aug 16 00:07:43 <gambler> umdk1d4, I keep my phone in my home office usually ...for my remote its always sitting near my TV
Aug 16 00:08:46 <gambler> did you try anyRemote? It actually works great.
Aug 16 00:08:59 <umdk1d4> yep i looked at it quite a bit
Aug 16 00:09:05 <umdk1d4> looks nice  :)
Aug 16 00:09:15 <umdk1d4> idk maybe i just wanna torture myself learning about dbus
Aug 16 00:09:23 <gambler> it's just contextually bad. like I have to get up and walk to the other side of my house to get my remote
Aug 16 00:11:46 <gambler> karmakomik, yeah looks like it wasnt around when I tested it...0.1 version number there
Aug 16 01:28:22 <michaelnovakjr__> got quiet
Aug 16 01:31:41 <yakischloba> has been quiet most of the day
Aug 16 01:31:43 <yakischloba> week
Aug 16 01:31:44 <yakischloba> month
Aug 16 01:33:17 <michaelnovakjr__> true
Aug 16 01:33:46 <michaelnovakjr__> i haven't been around much this week
Aug 16 01:33:52 <michaelnovakjr__> losing faith in android
Aug 16 01:34:17 <yakischloba> i've just had other things take priority over my app for the most part.
Aug 16 01:35:38 <michaelnovakjr__> yea, i'm working on some other stuff
Aug 16 01:35:45 <michaelnovakjr__> nothing for android currently
Aug 16 02:18:34 <gambler> this channel is actually pretty decent compared to some that I'm in. I have a few with 10+ pages of only leave/join messages
Aug 16 02:23:15 <jasta> michaelnovakjr__: i'm finishing up my solitaire game :)
Aug 16 02:23:21 <jasta> it's pretty sophisticated now :)
Aug 16 02:23:29 <jasta> i'm going to add animations next
Aug 16 02:25:56 <michaelnovakjr__> sweet!
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