**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 20 02:59:56 2008
Aug 20 04:18:06 <romainguy> re
Aug 20 04:26:08 <meoblast001> romainguy: google should make a game console
Aug 20 04:26:12 <meoblast001> it might actually be good
Aug 20 04:26:15 <meoblast001> i gave up on sony
Aug 20 04:26:18 <romainguy> lol
Aug 20 04:26:24 <romainguy> I actually like my PS3 more and more
Aug 20 04:26:28 <romainguy> more than my xbox 360
Aug 20 04:26:52 <meoblast001> well... it cant even play GBA games at top speed
Aug 20 04:26:56 <meoblast001> in PS3 Linux
Aug 20 04:26:58 <romainguy> GBA?
Aug 20 04:27:00 <romainguy> er
Aug 20 04:27:03 <meoblast001> game boy advance
Aug 20 04:27:07 <romainguy> the PS3 wasn't really meant to do this
Aug 20 04:27:10 <romainguy> yes I know what the GBA is
Aug 20 04:27:15 <meoblast001> and they destroyed backwards compatibility
Aug 20 04:27:17 <romainguy> (I worked as a GBA game developer :))
Aug 20 04:27:26 <romainguy> backward compatibility is fine on my PS3
Aug 20 04:27:38 <meoblast001> i  have an 80 gig original
Aug 20 04:27:45 <meoblast001> doesnt play the old games that i like
Aug 20 04:27:48 <romainguy> ah the 80 GB
Aug 20 04:27:57 <meoblast001> sony's poor marketting does that
Aug 20 04:28:04 <meoblast001> and yes it was intended to play GBA games
Aug 20 04:28:05 <meoblast001> "It was fully intended that you, a PS3 owner, could play games, watch movies, view photos, listen to music, and run a full-featured Linux operating system that transforms your PS3 into a home computer."
Aug 20 04:28:18 <meoblast001> my home computer plays GBA games
Aug 20 04:28:31 <romainguy> that's not quite Sony's fault I'm sure
Aug 20 04:28:33 <meoblast001> plays them perfectly fine... at 100% framerate 95% of the time
Aug 20 04:28:37 <meoblast001> yes it is
Aug 20 04:28:39 <romainguy> the Cell is quite different from regular CPUs
Aug 20 04:28:46 <meoblast001> they place PS3 linux under a hypervisor
Aug 20 04:28:48 <meoblast001> why?
Aug 20 04:28:56 <romainguy> because it's a freakin' game console
Aug 20 04:29:00 <meoblast001> to make piracy impossible
Aug 20 04:29:10 <meoblast001> but the PS3 linux is basically a piece of crap
Aug 20 04:29:12 <romainguy> can't blame them for that
Aug 20 04:29:17 <meoblast001> cant do anything other than high level math operations
Aug 20 04:29:32 <romainguy> as a console, movie/photo/music player, I find the PS3 great
Aug 20 04:29:39 <romainguy> I don't give a shit about running Linux on it
Aug 20 04:29:42 <romainguy> I have computers for that :)
Aug 20 04:30:02 <meoblast001> well... everytime i have a good idea for my ps3.... it cant do it... every time i want to play a good game on my ps3.. it cant do it
Aug 20 04:30:08 <meoblast001> ps2 games were great
Aug 20 04:30:12 <meoblast001> a few ps3 games are good
Aug 20 04:30:51 <meoblast001> Google should get into more markets... i actually voted a few years ago that google would come out on top that year because they were doing a lot of stuff
Aug 20 04:30:59 <meoblast001> on top of all other companies for that year
Aug 20 04:31:12 <romainguy> because Android is not going into more markets? :)
Aug 20 04:31:40 <meoblast001> it is
Aug 20 04:31:45 <meoblast001> but i think there are a lot more
Aug 20 04:31:52 <meoblast001> Google Linux would be awesome =P
Aug 20 04:32:07 <michaelnovakjr> Linux is Linux
Aug 20 04:32:19 <meoblast001> true.... but a Google distrubution
Aug 20 04:32:32 <michaelnovakjr> i'm not sure that is worth the time
Aug 20 04:32:51 <romainguy> I don't quite see what we could really add
Aug 20 04:33:20 <michaelnovakjr> yea, there are plenty of distros that are excellent
Aug 20 04:34:03 <meoblast001> yeah
Aug 20 04:34:04 <meoblast001> i guess
Aug 20 04:35:04 <michaelnovakjr> i think Google should focus on Android for the time being :)
Aug 20 04:36:08 <meoblast001> yeah
Aug 20 04:36:13 <meoblast001> android is scaring me
Aug 20 04:36:31 <meoblast001> i keep getting affraid something is going to happen and the project will be dropped
Aug 20 04:36:33 <meoblast001> or delayed
Aug 20 04:36:47 <meoblast001> wait... i forgot... google isnt sony. they dont delay things
Aug 20 04:37:21 <michaelnovakjr> ?
Aug 20 04:38:11 <yakischloba> god damnit
Aug 20 04:38:18 <meoblast001> what
Aug 20 04:38:33 <meoblast001> michaelnovakjr: go look up "Sony Home Delay" on google
Aug 20 04:38:37 <romainguy> meoblast001: why would we drop or delay the project?
Aug 20 04:38:43 <meoblast001> idk
Aug 20 04:38:47 <meoblast001> i heard stuff on the internet
Aug 20 04:38:51 <michaelnovakjr> romainguy: i believe its jibberish
Aug 20 04:38:51 <meoblast001> saying the project is like
Aug 20 04:38:58 <meoblast001> slowing
Aug 20 04:38:59 <romainguy> ah
Aug 20 04:39:07 <romainguy> you "heard stuff on the internet"
Aug 20 04:39:09 <romainguy> must be true then :))
Aug 20 04:39:13 <michaelnovakjr> romainguy: did he get the memo about the new SDK :)
Aug 20 04:39:29 <romainguy> I have yet to read one article about android that gets the facts right :))
Aug 20 04:39:43 <romainguy> even articles about the new SDK contain mistakes, errors or forget stuff
Aug 20 04:39:44 <michaelnovakjr> romainguy: its all these stupid fanboy sites :)
Aug 20 04:39:58 <meoblast001> lol]
Aug 20 04:40:03 <meoblast001> i want a gphone
Aug 20 04:40:06 <meoblast001> i hope its not expensive
Aug 20 04:40:20 <michaelnovakjr> we need an organization on internet journalism ..... we need to publicly ban this terrible sites
Aug 20 04:40:45 <romainguy> the problem with the web is that anyone can pretend to be a "journalist"
Aug 20 04:40:48 <michaelnovakjr> meoblast001: it looks like the first device is going to be a high end device
Aug 20 04:40:51 <romainguy> the quality is WAAAYY low
Aug 20 04:40:55 <michaelnovakjr> romainguy: yes that is the problem
Aug 20 04:40:55 <meoblast001> high end?
Aug 20 04:41:00 <meoblast001> expensive?
Aug 20 04:41:18 <michaelnovakjr> romainguy: if you can follow the wordpress instructions well then you can be a "journalist"
Aug 20 04:42:02 <meoblast001> oooo
Aug 20 04:42:03 <yakischloba> romainguy: The problem isn't that anyone can do it, its that the dumb eat it up.
Aug 20 04:42:04 <meoblast001> i can do that
Aug 20 04:42:06 <meoblast001> i have wordpress
Aug 20 04:42:09 <meoblast001> its easy to install and use
Aug 20 04:42:18 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: that too :)
Aug 20 04:42:30 <yakischloba> that 100% i think
Aug 20 04:42:39 <meoblast001> who wants me to make a wordpress?
Aug 20 04:42:51 <michaelnovakjr> http://www.helloandroid.com/node/602 <<< perfect example
Aug 20 04:42:53 <yakischloba> honestly everything I read on those bullshit sites I figure half of it is nonsense
Aug 20 04:43:27 <yakischloba> its easy to tell whos out there for hits and attention
Aug 20 04:43:33 <michaelnovakjr> definitel
Aug 20 04:43:41 <yakischloba> which is most people
Aug 20 04:43:48 <meoblast001> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Android#T-Mobile_Smartphone
Aug 20 04:43:54 <michaelnovakjr> i'm going to record a blurry video of my win mobile phone and call it the unreleased Android UI
Aug 20 04:44:16 <yakischloba> anyone who does 'journalism' on flakey things like tech are just attention whores
Aug 20 04:44:20 <michaelnovakjr> as confirmed by my close sources... the Android UI Engineers :)
Aug 20 04:44:20 <muthu> if only google can have an official blog and they can update news regularly
Aug 20 04:44:32 <michaelnovakjr> uh muthu they do :)
Aug 20 04:44:42 <muthu> yeah but they don't update
Aug 20 04:44:45 <muthu> hence the rumors
Aug 20 04:44:46 <michaelnovakjr> http://code.google.com/android
Aug 20 04:44:47 <meoblast001> type 735 if you work for google
Aug 20 04:44:55 <michaelnovakjr> 736
Aug 20 04:45:03 <yakischloba> as far as tech stuff, I'll believe it when I see it.
Aug 20 04:45:11 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: exactly
Aug 20 04:45:11 <muthu> 7three5
Aug 20 04:45:15 <yakischloba> meoblast001: enough of that
Aug 20 04:45:21 <meoblast001> =(
Aug 20 04:45:27 <meoblast001> i was just curious
Aug 20 04:45:34 <meoblast001> so i took the AOL user's approach
Aug 20 04:45:36 <swetland> these blurry videos are great. I think I saw bigfoot
Aug 20 04:45:49 <yakischloba> meoblast001: mature grownups shouldn't do things like that.
Aug 20 04:45:49 <michaelnovakjr> swetland: yea, he's an Android fan
Aug 20 04:45:59 <swetland> !
Aug 20 04:46:05 <michaelnovakjr> swetland: i hear he's part of the "test" team
Aug 20 04:46:07 <meoblast001> since when is 15 mature grownups xD
Aug 20 04:46:08 <meoblast001> j/k
Aug 20 04:46:12 <meoblast001> i try to be mature
Aug 20 04:46:16 <yakischloba> well work harder.
Aug 20 04:46:17 <meoblast001> and grownup'd
Aug 20 04:47:33 <meoblast001> what is LiMo and why should i not like it?
Aug 20 04:47:38 <michaelnovakjr> i find the fanboy sites extremely annoying
Aug 20 04:47:47 <michaelnovakjr> meoblast001: www.google.com
Aug 20 04:48:00 <meoblast001> yay
Aug 20 04:48:02 <meoblast001> new picture
Aug 20 04:48:14 <michaelnovakjr> hence why androidnerds.com is going to be a tutorial site!
Aug 20 04:48:17 <yakischloba> unfortunately the suckers of the world now have cultivated interest in higher level things like mobile development, and are happy to propagate anything that is fed to them
Aug 20 04:48:30 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr: woo hoo! no speculation on there please! :)
Aug 20 04:48:43 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: speculators will be shot at the door ;)
Aug 20 04:48:51 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr: excellent.
Aug 20 04:49:11 <meoblast001> if you want the facts, come here
Aug 20 04:49:11 <meoblast001> lol
Aug 20 04:49:20 <michaelnovakjr> meoblast001: that's a bit far from the truth :)
Aug 20 04:49:22 <meoblast001> and ask romainguy
Aug 20 04:49:28 <meoblast001> i know
Aug 20 04:49:30 <meoblast001> it was a joke
Aug 20 04:49:37 <meoblast001> you guys arent allowed to tell us
Aug 20 04:49:38 <michaelnovakjr> the irc has its fair share of speculation spewing
Aug 20 04:49:54 <meoblast001> is this the official IRC?
Aug 20 04:49:56 <yakischloba> meoblast001: I too, didn't know anything when I came in here, and I sat around and read what other people said for months. You might be better off to do the same.
Aug 20 04:49:58 <meoblast001> is there an irc.google.com?
Aug 20 04:50:05 <f00f-> no
Aug 20 04:50:15 <michaelnovakjr> meoblast001: think about that
Aug 20 04:50:17 <umdk1d4> meoblast001: this is as "official" as it gets
Aug 20 04:50:23 <f00f-> yeah we noticed a lot of lurkers in here for months
Aug 20 04:50:27 <michaelnovakjr> if there was an irc.google.com why would we be on freenode?
Aug 20 04:50:30 <f00f-> we thought you guys were stealing ideas
Aug 20 04:50:36 <jasta> *yawn*
Aug 20 04:50:40 <f00f-> but you were just newbin' :)
Aug 20 04:50:41 <meoblast001> hi jasta
Aug 20 04:50:45 <michaelnovakjr> f00f-: don't be fooled.... some were/are
Aug 20 04:50:47 <yakischloba> There he is. the yawner.
Aug 20 04:50:57 <umdk1d4> idling isnt a crime  :P
Aug 20 04:51:05 <meoblast001> GoogleBot doesnt like me
Aug 20 04:51:06 <f00f-> it should be :D
Aug 20 04:51:06 <yakischloba> Being annoying is
Aug 20 04:51:13 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Aug 20 04:51:14 <meoblast001> it crawls at all the wrong times
Aug 20 04:51:44 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, what's new.... dig into the new sdk at all?
Aug 20 04:51:59 <meoblast001> never do qqqqq then I'm feeling lucky
Aug 20 04:52:13 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: oh yes, lots.
Aug 20 04:52:15 * f00f- does it
Aug 20 04:52:26 <meoblast001> f00f-: your eyes will bleed
Aug 20 04:52:27 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, good bad or indifferent?
Aug 20 04:52:29 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: five builds on it, i'm revising a lot of it now too
Aug 20 04:52:36 <michaelnovakjr> sweet
Aug 20 04:52:45 <meoblast001> that hack really needs to be fixed
Aug 20 04:52:47 <f00f-> oh my
Aug 20 04:52:47 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: well, i don't know.  there's a lot of stuff in here for me.  but there is still that lame MediaPlayer problem so it's not all sunshine and rainbows
Aug 20 04:52:52 <meoblast001> someone google bombed that site
Aug 20 04:52:57 <meoblast001> with the title being qqqqq
Aug 20 04:53:04 <meoblast001> and well..... its now top on the list
Aug 20 04:53:07 <f00f-> ctrl-w to the rescue
Aug 20 04:53:13 <meoblast001> ctrl-w?
Aug 20 04:53:15 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: i'm mostly enjoying just revisiting some of Five's poor programming now
Aug 20 04:53:16 <michaelnovakjr> meoblast001: what the hell are you talkoing about?
Aug 20 04:53:18 <yakischloba> I've heard so much good vibe out of jasta all day that I'm actually going to resume working on my app.
Aug 20 04:53:33 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, that's good... i still figuring out what to work on :)
Aug 20 04:53:34 <jasta> you guys, i never _wanted_ to hate Android.
Aug 20 04:53:38 <meoblast001> micaelnovakjr: nothing.. just pranksters who take advantage of googlebot to make ppl's eyes blee
Aug 20 04:53:39 <meoblast001> d
Aug 20 04:53:55 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, most of my android-random contributions aren't needed anymore :)
Aug 20 04:53:55 <yakischloba> I thought alex2308 was bad *sigh*
Aug 20 04:54:04 <f00f-> jasta why dont you fix android?
Aug 20 04:54:07 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: you knew that would happen :)
Aug 20 04:54:11 <michaelnovakjr> totally
Aug 20 04:54:17 <f00f-> i think google needs to hire a handful of OSS experts
Aug 20 04:54:20 <f00f-> on contract
Aug 20 04:54:20 <jasta> f00f-: because it's closed source.  i promise you, once i can access it, i will.
Aug 20 04:54:21 <f00f-> to fix all the shit
Aug 20 04:54:24 <f00f-> implement all the code
Aug 20 04:54:45 <meoblast001> when does it go os?
Aug 20 04:54:50 <michaelnovakjr> f00f-: that bug list "should" shrink when the source is opened
Aug 20 04:55:14 <jasta> anyway, back to revising stuffs ;)
Aug 20 04:55:43 <yakischloba> this release has drawn so many people...too busy for me, I feel like every time I go to take a pee I'm missing something
Aug 20 04:55:52 <f00f-> you bet
Aug 20 04:55:59 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: its mostly nonsense :)
Aug 20 04:56:20 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr: ahh ok. I'll disregard then ;)
Aug 20 04:56:45 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: i was hoping more people would be back programming and asking questions and discussing the new sdk :)
Aug 20 04:57:13 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr: well that was my dismay..seems like mostly new people and retarded questions often unrelated to the SDK itself
Aug 20 04:57:21 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Aug 20 04:58:03 <meoblast001> why isnt google going to make hardware? just curious
Aug 20 04:58:15 <michaelnovakjr> meoblast001: because they don't have to
Aug 20 04:58:21 <meoblast001> ok
Aug 20 04:58:24 <f00f-> it's not their expertise
Aug 20 04:58:33 <yakischloba> Is google in the hardware business anywhere?
Aug 20 04:58:38 <meoblast001> no
Aug 20 04:58:43 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: yes
Aug 20 04:58:43 <f00f-> all they make are some servers
Aug 20 04:58:45 <f00f-> but they dont make them
Aug 20 04:58:50 <michaelnovakjr> they have google minis
Aug 20 04:58:53 <meoblast001> i bet Apple would sell products better if they didnt try to hold customers by the bals
Aug 20 04:58:53 <yakischloba> Oh. the "google app server" or whatever
Aug 20 04:58:56 <f00f-> they just put the software on them
Aug 20 04:59:00 <michaelnovakjr> f00f-: they are branded :_
Aug 20 04:59:05 <yakischloba> that isn't really hardware development
Aug 20 04:59:21 <michaelnovakjr> f00f-: we have two at work.... blue servers with the big G
Aug 20 04:59:37 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: not really..... but their ghost support team is who you contact :)
Aug 20 04:59:49 <f00f-> they worth it michael?
Aug 20 04:59:53 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr: heh
Aug 20 05:00:28 <michaelnovakjr> f00f-: they are nice... the search feature for the site is awesome.... we had hardware issues and it was a pain in the ass dealing with support.... but other than that pretty good :)
Aug 20 05:00:42 <f00f-> ah, i dont have a need to search anything
Aug 20 05:00:47 <f00f-> good for intranets i bet
Aug 20 05:00:57 <yakischloba> just google searching for internal documents, correct?
Aug 20 05:00:58 <f00f-> when htdig, mnogosearch, aspsearch wont cut it
Aug 20 05:01:10 <michaelnovakjr> f00f-: we used it to crawl our sites.... good customization
Aug 20 05:01:22 <f00f-> do you get the same < 0.10 sec response times?
Aug 20 05:01:29 <michaelnovakjr> f00f-: its fast
Aug 20 05:02:44 <meoblast001> is googlebot opensource?
Aug 20 05:02:48 <meoblast001> lol
Aug 20 05:03:00 <meoblast001> if so, i want a copy
Aug 20 05:03:07 <michaelnovakjr> i am going to regard that as rhetorical
Aug 20 05:03:22 <yakischloba> spare us..
Aug 20 05:03:31 <f00f-> you didnt get yahoo_engn.zip when it was up?
Aug 20 05:03:34 <f00f-> few hundred megs
Aug 20 05:03:47 <meoblast001> is it still up?
Aug 20 05:04:00 <michaelnovakjr> yea... www.google.com/shit-we-stole-and-returned
Aug 20 05:04:08 <f00f-> hahaha
Aug 20 05:04:38 <meoblast001> lol
Aug 20 05:04:40 <michaelnovakjr> half of it had Microsoft comment blocks at the top of files
Aug 20 05:04:52 <meoblast001> googlebot did?
Aug 20 05:05:30 <f00f-> well googlebot is essentially a glorified wget -r
Aug 20 05:06:40 <meoblast001> f00f-: explain this... wget -r
Aug 20 05:06:42 <meoblast001> i has a wget
Aug 20 05:06:47 <meoblast001> but i never used the wget -r
Aug 20 05:07:02 <yakischloba> oh for fucks sake
Aug 20 05:07:07 <meoblast001> im sorry
Aug 20 05:07:15 <michaelnovakjr> meoblast001: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=wget
Aug 20 05:07:15 <f00f-> meoblast001: download the entire internet, start with: wget -r http://www.google.com/
Aug 20 05:07:33 <meoblast001> awesome
Aug 20 05:07:36 <yakischloba> I hope someone else gets impatient before me so I don't make an as of myself.
Aug 20 05:07:44 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: i will :)
Aug 20 05:08:05 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr: Maybe you would have by now if you hadn't been absent ;)
Aug 20 05:08:23 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: definitely :)
Aug 20 05:08:32 <michaelnovakjr> but then again i was absent for a reason :)
Aug 20 05:08:39 <yakischloba> heh
Aug 20 05:08:40 <meoblast001> f00f-: im working on it
Aug 20 05:08:43 <meoblast001> made a file on my desktop
Aug 20 05:08:46 <meoblast001> i mean
Aug 20 05:08:48 <meoblast001> a folder
Aug 20 05:08:56 <meoblast001> theentireinternet/
Aug 20 05:09:02 <f00f-> good luck.
Aug 20 05:09:25 <michaelnovakjr> you should sign off IRC until you're done... you don't want to slow it down or anything
Aug 20 05:09:30 <meoblast001> how long will it take?
Aug 20 05:09:37 <yakischloba> years or decades
Aug 20 05:09:45 <meoblast001> how does google do it in days then?
Aug 20 05:09:48 <michaelnovakjr> meoblast001: count 2^n until you get to the last number
Aug 20 05:10:12 <meoblast001> ?
Aug 20 05:10:29 <meoblast001> how many T3 lines does google have?
Aug 20 05:10:36 <yakischloba> a gazillion
Aug 20 05:11:04 <michaelnovakjr> meoblast001: what kind of question is that
Aug 20 05:11:13 <meoblast001> oh yeah
Aug 20 05:11:16 <meoblast001> im pushing 2 websites
Aug 20 05:11:21 <meoblast001> www.google.com
Aug 20 05:11:24 <meoblast001> scholar.google.com
Aug 20 05:11:30 <michaelnovakjr> meoblast001: for someone who claimed to be a part of the ubuntu project you sure sound like a moron
Aug 20 05:11:51 * jasta wrestles with Subclipse on Eclipse 3.4
Aug 20 05:11:51 <jasta> ugh
Aug 20 05:12:07 <yakischloba> is 3.4 required for the new plugin?..
Aug 20 05:12:10 <michaelnovakjr> jasta, i'm assuming that is the svn plugin
Aug 20 05:12:23 <jasta> yakischloba: 3.3+ is.  i had 3.2 from debian so i upg'd to 3.4
Aug 20 05:12:36 <muthu> anyone know eclipse 3.4 wget link?
Aug 20 05:12:52 <meoblast001> my sister told me it wont all fit
Aug 20 05:12:54 <yakischloba> hmm. I think I may have grabbed 3.3 already in the process of my Ubuntu troubles.
Aug 20 05:13:03 <meoblast001> i was like "dang it.. i forgot.. only 60 gigs"
Aug 20 05:13:08 <meoblast001> how many gigs does google have?
Aug 20 05:13:10 <michaelnovakjr> its getting old dude
Aug 20 05:13:24 <muthu> jasta: did you use wget for eclipse 3.4 download?
Aug 20 05:13:31 <yakischloba> hahahaha
Aug 20 05:13:34 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Aug 20 05:14:07 <f00f-> hahahaha
Aug 20 05:14:12 <yakischloba> ah man its pouring. what fun it will be riding into work in the morning.
Aug 20 05:14:22 <f00f-> on your tricycle?
Aug 20 05:14:33 <yakischloba> s/tri/bi
Aug 20 05:14:39 <meoblast001> i have the whole google main site downloaded
Aug 20 05:14:58 <meoblast001> does it download alphabetically?
Aug 20 05:14:59 <michaelnovakjr> i don't know about anyone else but i'm blocking him :)
Aug 20 05:15:07 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr: amen
Aug 20 05:15:14 <meoblast001> yay..... i feel special
Aug 20 05:15:30 <muthu> wget http://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/eclipse/technology/epp/downloads/release/ganymede/R/eclipse-java-ganymede-linux-gtk.tar.gz
Aug 20 05:15:36 <muthu> that looks like it
Aug 20 05:15:47 <michaelnovakjr> muthu i bet eclipse.org has it too
Aug 20 05:15:52 <michaelnovakjr> and you can click on it :)
Aug 20 05:15:53 <yakischloba> no way
Aug 20 05:15:56 <yakischloba> wget only
Aug 20 05:16:12 <yakischloba> i think you have to use a recursive download from the subdirectory actually
Aug 20 05:16:16 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: i could download it for all 78 people in here before he figures out wget :)
Aug 20 05:16:18 <f00f-> muthu have you ported to 0.9 yet?
Aug 20 05:16:24 <muthu> yeah
Aug 20 05:16:29 <muthu> 0.9 done
Aug 20 05:16:30 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr:  :)
Aug 20 05:16:47 <yakischloba> did ADC guys have 0.9 access before the public did?
Aug 20 05:17:03 <muthu> f00f-:  now i'm working on a big plan
Aug 20 05:17:18 <michaelnovakjr> muthu: martha stewart integration?
Aug 20 05:17:23 <muthu> haha
Aug 20 05:17:33 <yakischloba> hah
Aug 20 05:17:36 <michaelnovakjr> you'd need an ankle bracelet
Aug 20 05:17:45 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr: hey now..
Aug 20 05:17:47 <muthu> yakischloba: we didn't have 0.9
Aug 20 05:17:47 <michaelnovakjr> and don't give her any stock :)
Aug 20 05:18:01 <muthu> hehe
Aug 20 05:18:49 <meoblast001> i get the feeling im going to live a very unsucessful life
Aug 20 05:19:01 <michaelnovakjr> yea me too
Aug 20 05:19:16 <muthu> jasta: The problem with subclipse on 3.4 is that ‘Subclipse 1.4.x requires Subversion 1.5.0 version of JavaHL/SVNKit’
Aug 20 05:19:52 <f00f-> yeah
Aug 20 05:19:57 <f00f-> there is an alternative buddy
Aug 20 05:20:00 <f00f-> not subclipse
Aug 20 05:20:02 <f00f-> it's somtehing else
Aug 20 05:20:09 <f00f-> the non-free one
Aug 20 05:20:11 <f00f-> it's linked from eclipse.org
Aug 20 05:20:20 <f00f-> subversive
Aug 20 05:20:20 <meoblast001> scholar.google.com is a big site
Aug 20 05:20:21 <f00f-> yep
Aug 20 05:20:21 <f00f-> that's it
Aug 20 05:20:46 * umdk1d4 realizes i havent eaten today due to sdk
Aug 20 05:21:07 <f00f-> nice
Aug 20 05:21:10 <f00f-> where u at
Aug 20 05:21:23 <umdk1d4> got app ported easily
Aug 20 05:21:27 <michaelnovakjr> meoblast001: you officially are annoying the shit out of me.... go away!!!
Aug 20 05:21:29 <umdk1d4> now im working on other fun stuff  ;)
Aug 20 05:21:35 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr: i ignored
Aug 20 05:21:39 <michaelnovakjr> meoblast001: you are officially blocked
Aug 20 05:21:53 <meoblast001> =(
Aug 20 05:22:07 <meoblast001> i've been hearing that since the 2nd grade
Aug 20 05:23:28 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: i just ignored him
Aug 20 05:23:37 <michaelnovakjr> pidgin doesn't like the ignore command
Aug 20 05:23:46 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr: yeah my peace of mind increased by 300% after I did it.
Aug 20 05:23:50 <michaelnovakjr> but apparently right click on the name works :)
Aug 20 05:24:27 <meoblast001> i feel like everyone here hates me
Aug 20 05:24:30 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: writing an app with 0.9?
Aug 20 05:25:27 <umdk1d4> okay so some speculation
Aug 20 05:25:32 <michaelnovakjr> no
Aug 20 05:25:40 <michaelnovakjr> stop with the speculation
Aug 20 05:25:41 <umdk1d4> i wonder if they dumbed-down the included apps
Aug 20 05:25:54 <michaelnovakjr> please it just came out
Aug 20 05:25:54 <muthu> which one?
Aug 20 05:25:57 <umdk1d4> and are still holding back some wow-factor stuff
Aug 20 05:26:02 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr: no, no, not yet. I had started on my app with m5 but I stopped working on it a couple weeks ago due to a combination of things. Mostly busy with getting my new job and suspicion that the next release was going to suck.
Aug 20 05:26:21 <michaelnovakjr> :) yakischloba i hear you
Aug 20 05:26:32 <umdk1d4> we still dont have a youtube player, or email (other than in browser)
Aug 20 05:26:40 <umdk1d4> interestingly google gears is integrated into the browser
Aug 20 05:26:54 <michaelnovakjr> it will come..... for now i'd just work on an app :)
Aug 20 05:27:30 <muthu> umdk1d4: the wow factor might come from tmo apps
Aug 20 05:27:47 <yakischloba> michaelnovakjr: I think I'm going to pick up on it again now, but I doubt I'll have it ready for handset release. I won't have as much time as I did before. Really I don't care though. It'd be awesome if my first app was popular someday but really I'm writing it for my own use and as a learning experience.
Aug 20 05:28:15 <michaelnovakjr> yakischloba: that is the way to go :)
Aug 20 05:28:34 <michaelnovakjr> its always good when you find your app useful!
Aug 20 05:28:56 <michaelnovakjr> plus i find the overall mood of developing is better that way :)
Aug 20 05:29:13 <yakischloba> heh. thats the only reason I'm writing it. I lurked around for months, not starting to learn anything because I didn't know what my app was going to be
Aug 20 05:29:26 <yakischloba> then I figured it out and yeah I have a blast when I'm writing it
Aug 20 05:29:27 <romainguy> umdk1d4: interestingly google gears is integrated into the browser << it can even create shortcuts to Gears apps on the desktop
Aug 20 05:29:51 <yakischloba> I really enjoy imagining how I will use it when its don
Aug 20 05:29:56 <michaelnovakjr> you'd figure in all the speculation that was picked up :)
Aug 20 05:29:58 <meoblast001> i wish i had the power to make ppl suffer
Aug 20 05:30:04 <meoblast001> watching ppl suffer makes me happy
Aug 20 05:30:46 <meoblast001> hi Rajec
Aug 20 05:31:37 <yakischloba> I'm sure other people will find it plenty useful too. I just have to do it right.
Aug 20 05:31:47 <Rajec> guys what you think about popularity of android? Whats the real market potencional? I think it is just next windows mobile and it will have hard time againts iphone.
Aug 20 05:32:05 <michaelnovakjr> Rajec: we are developers... not speculators
Aug 20 05:32:31 <umdk1d4> romainguy: ooh desktop gears shortcuts  =D
Aug 20 05:32:50 <yakischloba> It's on the back-burner for the moment though. Starting my new job and I have to get serious now about winter training for next cycling season. I'm just counting on that either no one will develop my app, or they'll do a half-assed job.
Aug 20 05:32:58 <swetland> I suspect it will be an uphill battle vs the forces of MobileGEOS, AmigaDOS for Phones, and PenWindows
Aug 20 05:33:34 <yakischloba> My money is on PenWindows. I got a leaked build and I loaded it onto my Blue Bic with haret.exe and its pretty sweet.
Aug 20 05:34:24 <f00f-> let me get this straight, you loaded it onto your ballpoing pen?
Aug 20 05:34:44 <romainguy> swetland: I still want BeOS on my Phone
Aug 20 05:35:17 <yakischloba> f00f-: apologies, that sounded like something from meoblast.
Aug 20 05:35:26 <swetland> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pen_Windows is actually the only one of those that was a real os ^^
Aug 20 05:35:44 <f00f-> nice
Aug 20 05:35:58 <yakischloba> swetland: thats funny, I was certain it was the only one that isn't ;)
Aug 20 05:36:35 <yakischloba> err. It was the only one I was certain that isn't.
Aug 20 05:36:58 <Rajec> michaelnovakjr: it doesn mean you dont have opinion
Aug 20 05:37:44 <michaelnovakjr> Rajec: for me it does :)... i don't speculate... i code
Aug 20 05:38:06 <yakischloba> Rajec: most of what is to come is uncertain still. For developers, Android is great. As far as how it will reach the public/market, no one knows.
Aug 20 05:39:33 <yakischloba> night folks
Aug 20 05:49:36 <michaelnovakjr> romainguy, 1.5 still have better support than 1.6?
Aug 20 05:49:42 <michaelnovakjr> java that is
Aug 20 05:50:23 <romainguy> uh?
Aug 20 05:50:43 <michaelnovakjr> you mentioned about two weeks ago that android worked better with java 1.5 instead of 1.6
Aug 20 05:50:49 <romainguy> no
Aug 20 05:50:58 <romainguy> I said we don't really test it with Java 1.6
Aug 20 05:51:14 <michaelnovakjr> cool
Aug 20 05:51:26 <romainguy> it should work though
Aug 20 05:51:30 <romainguy> I know we have a few devs who use it
Aug 20 05:51:53 <michaelnovakjr> yea, i haven't had an issue
Aug 20 06:12:05 <jasta> ohhhhh, very nice.  System.out is now connected to the logcat.
Aug 20 06:26:15 <umdk1d4> ooh? niiiiiice @ system.out
Aug 20 06:26:22 <umdk1d4> e.printStackTrace()  =D
Aug 20 06:26:37 <michaelnovakjr> jasta did you get subclipse working in eclipse?
Aug 20 06:26:40 <jasta> well, you could always do Log.d(TAG, "foo", e);
Aug 20 06:26:44 <jasta> michaelnovakjr: yeah
Aug 20 06:26:54 <michaelnovakjr> using 3.4?
Aug 20 06:27:34 <jasta> yeah
Aug 20 06:27:43 <jasta> just had to restart eclipse or something.  i don't know, it's a strange beast.
Aug 20 06:27:56 <michaelnovakjr> cool
Aug 20 06:30:44 <jasta> hmm, i am confused though.  my ServiceActivity class never seems to be able to re-use the connection.
Aug 20 06:30:51 <jasta> everytime the activity is destroyed i get:
Aug 20 06:31:04 <jasta> E/ActivityThread( 1809): android.app.ServiceConnectionLeaked: Activity org.devtcg.five.activity.SourceList has leaked ServiceConnection org.devtcg.five.activity.SourceList@43383930 that was originally bound here
Aug 20 06:31:08 <jasta> but for some reason the music player doesn't get that.  so they must be doing something different.
Aug 20 06:31:23 <jasta> also, each time the activity starts it up gets a new context, even though the service is still running and the process is the same.
Aug 20 06:33:00 <jasta> but romain you say it keys this connection pool by context.  hmm, i must be missing something...
Aug 20 06:33:10 <romainguy> the Music app unbinds the service connection in onDestroy
Aug 20 06:33:49 <jasta> then there must not be an efficiency improvement here like i thought there was.
Aug 20 06:34:09 <jasta> you were saying you thought it was a static reference to the connection because it kept it lingering around until the process died?
Aug 20 06:36:47 <jasta> that can't be true then.  it must just be taht this app waits for the service connection before it calls setContentView.  and that's how it achives the illusion of being instantly connected
Aug 20 06:37:07 <jasta> that's pretty disappointing.  i thought there was some great trick here to avoid the constant overhead of service connection
Aug 20 06:48:53 <jasta> why shouldn't this be possible, i wonder?
Aug 20 06:59:40 <umdk1d4> bah ontouchlistener only response to touch-down, and not again on touch-up
Aug 20 07:00:16 <umdk1d4> on a linearlayout with focusable and android:focusableInTouchMode both set true
Aug 20 07:01:34 <umdk1d4> works fine with a imagebutton
Aug 20 07:03:24 <umdk1d4> AHA!
Aug 20 07:03:42 <umdk1d4> the linearlayout needs to be android:longClickable="true" so that it processes and fires hovering touch events
Aug 20 07:06:30 <muthu> jasta: Out of memory during array extend at /usr/local/bin/axml2xml.pl line 314, chunk 1.
Aug 20 07:06:49 <jasta> clearly, they changed the format.
Aug 20 07:06:59 <muthu> arghh
Aug 20 07:07:01 <jasta> i mean, i looked into it and came to that conclusion
Aug 20 07:07:02 <jasta> ;)
Aug 20 07:07:11 <jasta> not that it would be obvious from that message hehe
Aug 20 07:07:21 <muthu> haha
Aug 20 07:07:22 <romainguy> jasta: that can't be true then.  it must just be taht this app waits for the service connection before it calls setContentView.  and that's how it achives the illusion of being instantly connected << no it doesn't wait before setContentView
Aug 20 07:07:39 <jasta> romainguy: some dude from Google was just in here claiming that it does.
Aug 20 07:07:47 <romainguy> was it marcone?
Aug 20 07:07:51 <jasta> yeah
Aug 20 07:08:02 <romainguy> then he knows what he's talking about :))
Aug 20 07:08:05 <jasta> he said they defer the UI until service connection in some cases
Aug 20 07:08:12 <jasta> (not all, but some)
Aug 20 07:09:24 <jasta> look at the "Now playing" activity
Aug 20 07:09:39 <jasta> when it opens it clearly seems to draw its initial UI different than other activities
Aug 20 07:09:50 <jasta> because it has to draw with that icon indicating which song is playing, which must be coming from a service
Aug 20 07:10:03 <jasta> so it must be waiting for service connection to draw anything at all, right?
Aug 20 07:10:18 <jasta> it probably even gets the playlist itself from the service.  so maybe it just fires up an empty list then populates it really fast?
Aug 20 07:11:20 <jasta> same goes for the albums screen it seems
Aug 20 07:11:29 <jasta> and artists and songs :)
Aug 20 07:11:52 <jasta> i don't know how exactly they are deferring the UI (i'd like to know *grin*), but they certainly are.
Aug 20 07:12:30 <jasta> i have been experimenting with calling setContentView after service connection and it does mor eor less seem to accomplish the effect you see in this app (notice how you don't get UI fade-in on some activities in the music player?)
Aug 20 07:13:31 <romainguy> honestly
Aug 20 07:13:33 <romainguy> on a device
Aug 20 07:13:39 <romainguy> if there's any delay I cannot tell
Aug 20 07:14:03 <muthu> yeah, you call set content view when your UI is ready
Aug 20 07:14:04 <jasta> it's clear that they wrote code different than your typical Hello World to make this work.
Aug 20 07:14:29 <jasta> romainguy: as i said, you can notice that the ui doesn't fade-in on lots of screens.  normally, it would.
Aug 20 07:14:42 <alex2308> hello world
Aug 20 07:15:04 <romainguy> anyway
Aug 20 07:15:12 <romainguy> the order of setContentView/bindService/etc. won't matter
Aug 20 07:15:13 <muthu> jasta: what's hard on in deciding when to call setcontentview?
Aug 20 07:15:13 <jasta> romainguy: i'd like to know specifically what they are doing in some of thoses cases.  like the "Now playing" screen.  what is the path it takes to layout/draw from onCreate?
Aug 20 07:15:17 <romainguy> it's the UI thread
Aug 20 07:15:25 <romainguy> so anything that block onCreate will "defer" the drawing
Aug 20 07:15:56 <jasta> romainguy: it odesn't block.  i mean defer as in it schedules a service connection.  when that connection comes, you can then call setContentView.  onCreate finished well before that happened.
Aug 20 07:16:05 <romainguy> well
Aug 20 07:16:13 <romainguy> when I looked at the code of the home activity
Aug 20 07:16:16 <romainguy> there was clearly no such thing
Aug 20 07:16:19 <romainguy> the code really was:
Aug 20 07:16:21 <romainguy> setContentView()
Aug 20 07:16:24 <romainguy> bindService()
Aug 20 07:16:30 <romainguy> and that's pretty much it
Aug 20 07:16:46 <jasta> and what service did you bind to?  did that service drastically affect the UI?
Aug 20 07:17:20 <romainguy> it just binds to whatever service the media player uses
Aug 20 07:17:27 <jasta> you see what i'm referring to right?  when the service connection will change your UI in a way that a sudden stutter in front of the user will be detectable.
Aug 20 07:17:49 <jasta> then you can't just simply setContentView, wait for the connection, then adjust the UI.
Aug 20 07:18:03 <jasta> and it's pretty clear that the Music player included here is not doing that assuming that the gap will be so small it can't be seen.
Aug 20 07:18:15 <jasta> because it clearly is doing initial layout/drawing differently.
Aug 20 07:18:23 <muthu> that depends on UI design
Aug 20 07:18:30 <jasta> just look at the code.  you should be able to see that the "Now playing" screen for example is doing something special
Aug 20 07:18:38 <jasta> i'm just asking to know what it is...
Aug 20 07:18:56 <muthu> jasta: where's the code?
Aug 20 07:19:02 <jasta> muthu: we don't have it.
Aug 20 07:19:05 <romainguy> muthu: jasta is just speculating
Aug 20 07:19:10 <muthu> haha
Aug 20 07:19:23 <jasta> i am not, i talked to marcone today
Aug 20 07:19:48 <romainguy> ok
Aug 20 07:19:48 <romainguy> so
Aug 20 07:19:50 <jasta> he confirmed that they do some sort of UI deferral based on the service connection.  but i didn't get any details about what they are doing.
Aug 20 07:19:54 <romainguy> first thing the now playing activity does
Aug 20 07:19:57 <romainguy> is setContentView
Aug 20 07:20:10 * umdk1d4 hugs gestures
Aug 20 07:20:10 <muthu> guess that's the right thing to do
Aug 20 07:20:13 <jasta> but the view is a list.  does it start empty until service connection?
Aug 20 07:20:40 <muthu> yeah, then populate the list when you have content
Aug 20 07:21:09 <umdk1d4> romainguy: thoughts on the easiest way to implement strike-through text?
Aug 20 07:21:11 <jasta> muthu: i think it waits to populate until after the service connection, even though the content would otherwise be available immediately in onCreate.
Aug 20 07:21:33 <jasta> because i think they have intentionally deferred the real UI construction until they have every piece of the puzzle known.  and that is why the activity seems to start differently.
Aug 20 07:21:40 <muthu> jasta: yeah, possible
Aug 20 07:22:09 <romainguy> jasta: what do you call the now playing activity?
Aug 20 07:22:20 <jasta> it's title is "Now playing"
Aug 20 07:22:30 <jasta> it's the activity launched when you click the playlist icon in the player window
Aug 20 07:22:42 <romainguy> ah
Aug 20 07:22:46 <romainguy> I was looking at the player window
Aug 20 07:22:51 <umdk1d4> aha!   STRIKE_THRU_TEXT_FLAG
Aug 20 07:22:54 <jasta> it draws a little icon next to the currently playing song, which i assume it gets from a service.
Aug 20 07:23:04 * umdk1d4 hugs grep
Aug 20 07:23:45 <romainguy> jasta: this activity just binds to the service then calls setContentView
Aug 20 07:23:48 <jasta> but i want to confirm that what is really happening there is that it sets "empty" content (a list maybe, but nothing in it) and waits until service connection to populate.
Aug 20 07:23:56 <romainguy> that's all it does
Aug 20 07:24:03 <romainguy> I guess the bind to service is blocking
Aug 20 07:24:08 <jasta> bind doesn't block
Aug 20 07:24:31 <jasta> what happens in onserviceconnected?  anything exciting to do with the UI?
Aug 20 07:24:43 <romainguy> nope nothing
Aug 20 07:24:49 <jasta> if you watch it open, you'll notice that unlike all other normal activities, it doesn't "fade in"
Aug 20 07:24:59 <jasta> it just poofs into existence suddenly.  it must be doing something different.
Aug 20 07:25:30 <jasta> romainguy: well where does it populate the list?
Aug 20 07:25:39 <jasta> it should just be a listactivity
Aug 20 07:26:13 <romainguy> just using a cursor
Aug 20 07:26:28 <jasta> in onCreate?
Aug 20 07:26:48 <romainguy> after the bind to service
Aug 20 07:26:49 <umdk1d4> yay me claps hands @ elegant code    title.setPaintFlags(title.getPaintFlags() & ~Paint.STRIKE_THRU_TEXT_FLAG);
Aug 20 07:26:53 <romainguy> and just before the setContent
Aug 20 07:26:54 <jasta> romainguy: a-ha!
Aug 20 07:26:57 <romainguy> it just gets a cursor
Aug 20 07:27:02 <romainguy> and puts it into an adapter
Aug 20 07:27:16 <jasta> oh, you mean after bindService() is called?  bindService doesn't block :)
Aug 20 07:27:40 <romainguy> sure
Aug 20 07:27:42 <jasta> unless maybe they are doing something unusual i don't know about?
Aug 20 07:27:43 <romainguy> but that's what it does
Aug 20 07:27:57 <jasta> so how does it decide which entry to put the label on?
Aug 20 07:28:06 <romainguy> I have no idea
Aug 20 07:28:12 <jasta> it affixes a play icon to the next of a listing
Aug 20 07:28:13 <romainguy> and I don't want to read you the entire code :)
Aug 20 07:28:34 <romainguy> but if I remember last time I saw this code, it just queries the service in the adapter's getView
Aug 20 07:28:47 <jasta> whoa, really?
Aug 20 07:29:33 <romainguy> yep
Aug 20 07:30:13 <jasta> that is very bizarre.  i cannot guess how they guarantee the service connection to be around at that time.
Aug 20 07:33:56 <muthu> jasta: what's the class name you are looking at?
Aug 20 07:34:11 <jasta> i don't know.  it's somewhere in the music player app.
Aug 20 07:35:07 <jasta> i'm just so confused how it is possibly doing this.
Aug 20 07:35:45 <jasta> i'll just ask marcone if i ever see him again i guess.
Aug 20 07:35:59 <muthu> why you confused?
Aug 20 07:36:16 <jasta> muthu: did you follow the conversation?  do you know how it is doing this?
Aug 20 07:37:34 <muthu> it looks pretty straightforward, unless i missing something here
Aug 20 07:38:03 <jasta> it is if you think that bindService is either immediate or blocking, which it is neither.
Aug 20 07:41:11 <jasta> muthu: hypothetically, let's say you made the service's onStart block for about a second.  You would now have a 1 second delay after onCreate before your service connection finished.  if your UI assumed that couldn't happen, it should fail badly.
Aug 20 07:41:43 <muthu> bindservice should be blocking
Aug 20 07:41:51 <jasta> NPE most likely.  If not NPE (because you checked for it), then it will just simply miss data that it needed from the service, so it would display wrong for a second.
Aug 20 07:41:58 <jasta> muthu: it most certainly is not and should not be blocking.
Aug 20 07:42:36 <muthu> how can bindservice not be blocking?
Aug 20 07:42:41 <jasta> service connections are threaded.  you create a binder thread and start the connection, immediately returning from bindService to your main thread.
Aug 20 07:42:48 <jasta> onServiceConnected() runs in that binder thread.
Aug 20 07:42:52 <jasta> (not your main thread)
Aug 20 07:43:20 <jasta> that is why you have to carefully consider this case as your activity starts.
Aug 20 07:44:07 <muthu> right, that doesn't mean bindservice is not blocking
Aug 20 07:44:11 <jasta> apparently everyone seems to ignore it, but i found if you are quick enough, you can exploit it in practice.
Aug 20 07:44:25 <jasta> muthu: uhm, yes it does.
Aug 20 07:44:43 <jasta> when bindService returns, onServiceConnected very probably was not called yet.
Aug 20 07:45:06 <jasta> it might have been just because the scheduler can do funny things sometimes, but it's much more likely that it wasn't.
Aug 20 07:46:24 <tric> yes, you shouldnt depend on it. its multithreaded, maybe you run on 2 cores
Aug 20 07:46:29 <jasta> it's easy to test this behaviour.  just make a service take a really long time to start.
Aug 20 07:46:46 <jasta> tric: we know that, i'm trying to demonstrate why this race condition has to be handled and not ignored.
Aug 20 07:47:09 <jasta> and also that the built-in Music player with 0.9 does seem to handle it correctly, i just don't know how it handles it.
Aug 20 07:47:22 <jasta> i have other mechanisms for handling it, but i think that it does something different than i do since its UI seems to draw weird.
Aug 20 07:48:29 <muthu> the build in media player waits for the service.. is it?
Aug 20 07:48:44 <jasta> it looks like it.  but Romain was basically just saying that he doesn't see that from the code.
Aug 20 07:49:09 <jasta> all i have to go on is the way it seems to behave.  Romain obviously has the code, so i'm even more confused now.
Aug 20 07:49:56 <jasta> Five had this race condition in for the release to the judges, and I know for a fact a user could trigger it if they were very fast to click on UI elements before the service connected.
Aug 20 07:50:02 <jasta> you'd have to click like a wild monkey, but you could do it.
Aug 20 07:50:27 <jasta> so i obviously want to find a good solution for this
Aug 20 07:50:33 <muthu> haha
Aug 20 07:50:39 <muthu> why are you enabling the clicks?
Aug 20 07:50:45 <muthu> if the functionality is ready
Aug 20 07:50:47 <jasta> ugh, whatever.  i'll get marcone's contact info somehow and just ask him for more information.
Aug 20 07:50:49 <muthu> /not
Aug 20 07:51:04 <jasta> muthu: because i didn't realize that this race was possible initially.  i didn't fully understand the problem.
Aug 20 07:51:14 <muthu> ok
Aug 20 07:51:23 <jasta> i do now.  it's because service connection is threaded, and completes whenever it feels like it not necessarily before your UI is ready.
Aug 20 07:51:36 <muthu> that's why it returns a boolean
Aug 20 07:51:49 <jasta> that's why i now am revising my code to call setContentView *after* service connection when necessary.  but i want to know that this is the "right" way to do it, by using the music player in 0.9 as a guide.
Aug 20 07:52:17 <muthu> better to show a view upfront
Aug 20 07:52:21 <muthu> then update is as required
Aug 20 07:52:35 <muthu> we don't want to be starting at a black screen!
Aug 20 07:52:46 <jasta> yes, you do.
Aug 20 07:52:46 <muthu> /staring
Aug 20 07:53:01 <jasta> it's much better than starting with a UI that if the user clicks on will do nothing.
Aug 20 07:53:19 <muthu> oh i remember
Aug 20 07:53:28 <muthu> five takes like 15 mins to load ;)
Aug 20 07:53:33 <jasta> the delay is very small.
Aug 20 07:53:40 <jasta> what?
Aug 20 07:53:51 <muthu> that was a while back..
Aug 20 07:54:01 <jasta> Five doesn't take 15 minutes to load, what the hell are you talking about?
Aug 20 07:54:13 <muthu> i mean to sync up with server..
Aug 20 07:54:31 <jasta> that has nothing to do with the problem we're discussing, muthu.
Aug 20 07:55:06 <muthu> can you just show a progress dialog or something
Aug 20 07:55:11 <muthu> saying media is loading...
Aug 20 07:55:26 <jasta> there is no need, the delay is so freaking small that the user won't even be able to detect most of the time.
Aug 20 07:55:44 <muthu> no, you can fill that small delay with a progress dialog
Aug 20 07:55:48 <jasta> but it's that you're protecting against the rare times that they CAN and you don't want them clicking around so fast it breaks your app
Aug 20 07:55:54 <cutmasta> mornin
Aug 20 07:56:01 <jasta> muthu: by small, i mean normally a fraction of a second.
Aug 20 07:56:26 <jasta> it would actually add to the delay to run code to make and show a dialog
Aug 20 07:56:48 <jasta> anyway, nevermind.  i will just get marcone's contact info
Aug 20 08:38:23 <anno^da_> lol I like the picture that is taken by the emulator camera :D
Aug 20 08:38:27 <anno^da_> whose that :D
Aug 20 08:39:59 <jasta> ?
Aug 20 08:40:49 <jasta> how do you take a photo?
Aug 20 08:41:53 <anno^da_> ah well I'm just using the Camera API
Aug 20 08:42:19 <anno^da_> and you get a byte stream with the photo date back.
Aug 20 08:42:29 <jasta> oh
Aug 20 08:42:32 <anno^da_> This byte stream is something emulated :>
Aug 20 08:43:02 <anno^da_> it is the jpeg stream lets see what they have in the raw data stream :D
Aug 20 08:43:40 <alex2308> i bet its porn
Aug 20 08:43:47 <alex2308> *hope
Aug 20 08:43:50 <jasta> i like the way the UI looks these days
Aug 20 08:43:56 <jasta> it is starting to feel like a phone now :)
Aug 20 08:45:03 <anno^da_> well yes I like the widgets a lot more than in M5
Aug 20 08:45:34 <anno^da_> the EditText looks fine now
Aug 20 08:45:51 <umdk1d4> anno^da_: its the boss from office space  ;)
Aug 20 08:46:02 <jasta> umdk1d4: nice :)
Aug 20 08:46:26 <umdk1d4> it freaked me out first time i saw it
Aug 20 08:46:30 <jasta> hmm, what the hell.  the phone is locked...
Aug 20 08:46:46 <umdk1d4> i was expecting a snapshot of the grey bouncign square
Aug 20 08:46:49 <jasta> hehe, i was able to unlock it by rotating it
Aug 20 08:47:28 <jasta> hah yeah, there it is
Aug 20 08:47:30 <jasta> ohhh, this is nice
Aug 20 08:47:36 <jasta> if you try to set a wallpaper, itlets you crop it right in the phone
Aug 20 08:47:56 <romainguy> try setting a picture for a contact
Aug 20 08:48:02 <romainguy> and admire the face detection
Aug 20 08:48:10 <jasta> lol, i set the office space guy as the wallpaper :)
Aug 20 08:48:14 <jasta> this is fun to play with
Aug 20 08:48:46 <anno^da_> umdk1d4: ahhh :D
Aug 20 08:48:47 <jasta> romainguy: whoa.  fancy.
Aug 20 08:48:59 <jasta> it seems to work great on the office space guy :)
Aug 20 08:49:01 <anno^da_> eastereggs all around :P
Aug 20 08:49:29 <anno^da_> umdk1d4: do I have to expect something different when taking the raw stream ? (and dont say surprise :DD )
Aug 20 08:49:31 <jasta> romainguy: hey, so i created that widget i was mentioning much earlier tonight
Aug 20 08:49:31 <romainguy> the cool thing about the cropper and the face detection is that you can ask for them with a simple intent
Aug 20 08:49:42 <romainguy> you can also use circle crops if I remember
Aug 20 08:49:49 <jasta> romainguy: to "efficiently" lookup row views in a listview by dataset id.
Aug 20 08:50:14 <jasta> it seems to work great, actually
Aug 20 08:50:36 <jasta> if you want to see what i meant:
Aug 20 08:50:52 <jasta> http://code.google.com/p/five/source/browse/trunk/five-client/src/org/devtcg/five/widget/StatefulListView.java
Aug 20 08:51:59 <romainguy> " Only "visible" views
Aug 20 08:51:59 <romainguy>          * can be located this way, as the list view recycles views for other
Aug 20 08:51:59 <romainguy>          * off-screen items and thus those cannot be referenced directly."
Aug 20 08:52:01 <romainguy> this is not true
Aug 20 08:52:12 <romainguy> ListView has a two-stage recycler
Aug 20 08:52:24 <romainguy> there's the active set and the scrap heap
Aug 20 08:52:35 <romainguy> the first one is views we know we can put back on screen directly
Aug 20 08:52:44 <romainguy> the scrap heap contains views that might be used later, for another layout
Aug 20 08:52:56 <jasta> and those are all children?
Aug 20 08:52:56 <romainguy> and there's no guarantee about the number of views in the scrap heap
Aug 20 08:53:04 <romainguy> they are "detached"
Aug 20 08:53:10 <jasta> what does that mean?
Aug 20 08:53:19 <romainguy> they are not children of the ListView but kept around and they have some ties to the ListView
Aug 20 08:53:31 <jasta> right, so those wouldn't be searchable with this either then.
Aug 20 08:53:51 <anno^da_> Ah and romainguy I want to thank you guys for all the work. Now I'm having more and more fun with the SDK :)
Aug 20 08:53:53 <jasta> i assume that only children of listview are actually being drawn in this code...
Aug 20 08:54:18 <jasta> that is, they are not recycleable views: they really are getting drawn.  it only searches those.
Aug 20 08:54:24 <romainguy> ah sorry I thought your cache kept the views
Aug 20 08:54:31 <romainguy> that would be wrong
Aug 20 08:54:33 <jasta> no, the cache just maps to row positions from dataset id
Aug 20 08:54:49 <romainguy> yes that's the right way to do it
Aug 20 08:54:55 <umdk1d4> speaking of listviews, i wonder if ontouchlistener is fired to individual children list items, and also to the parent listview
Aug 20 08:54:56 <romainguy> that's why I didn't want you to keep the views in the cache
Aug 20 08:55:02 <jasta> and its just a cache: it has to search at least once for each dataset id, but it only searches the children of the list.
Aug 20 08:55:06 <romainguy> umdk1d4: use onItemClickListener
Aug 20 08:55:17 <romainguy> also there's another issue with your listview
Aug 20 08:55:22 <romainguy> you never unregister the dataobserver
Aug 20 08:55:25 <umdk1d4> mmm but i really want to use touch to detect a gesture
Aug 20 08:55:31 <romainguy> it's probably fine in your case
Aug 20 08:55:34 <jasta> romainguy: yes, i went a different route than dealing with views directly.  i realized that searching was a good approach beacuse the set of visible children is pretty small really
Aug 20 08:55:43 <romainguy> but you could easily leak the entire activity if you kept the adapter around somewhere
Aug 20 08:55:44 <jasta> it would search in constant time, so the worst case scenario is still good.
Aug 20 08:56:06 <jasta> i wondered that.  i didn't know where would be proper to unregister.
Aug 20 08:56:11 <romainguy> anno^da_: thanks :)
Aug 20 08:56:25 <romainguy> usually we do that in setAdapter() and onDetachedFromWindow()
Aug 20 08:57:41 <jasta> romainguy: in general, does this strategy seem like the right thing to be doing?
Aug 20 08:57:46 <jasta> i mean, my whole StatefulListView
Aug 20 08:58:09 <romainguy> I would not say that it's the right way to go in general
Aug 20 08:58:19 <jasta> why?
Aug 20 08:58:27 <romainguy> ListView being ListView, I strongly advise against any form of messing with it other than with the adapter :)
Aug 20 08:59:11 <jasta> i suppose i am inspecting some of its behaviours by assuming its children represent all the views it will draw (and no more)
Aug 20 08:59:27 <jasta> but what i want can't be done with adapters alone...
Aug 20 08:59:57 <romainguy> in your case
Aug 20 09:00:05 <jasta> and this is very efficient for both common cases and esoteric ones.  much more so than scanning the entire cursor to figure out these positions or firing notifyDataSetChanged all the time
Aug 20 09:00:10 <romainguy> in all the apps I've seen so far, the position was enough
Aug 20 09:00:52 <jasta> romainguy: my application often use services to instruct of events that the activity is monitoring
Aug 20 09:01:01 <jasta> these events are rightly keyed by the database id of the thing being monitored
Aug 20 09:01:06 <romainguy> yeah I got that
Aug 20 09:01:09 <jasta> so the only key into the UI is the dataset id.
Aug 20 09:01:20 <jasta> this, by the way, must be exactly what the "Now playing" scree of the music player does.
Aug 20 09:01:39 <jasta> it gets, from the service, the current playing song.  it has to then mush that into the UI.  it probably does it very inefficiently, where i do not :)
Aug 20 09:02:01 <romainguy> sure
Aug 20 09:02:20 <romainguy> but your code in return is now a premature optimization :)
Aug 20 09:02:40 <romainguy> not that it won't work
Aug 20 09:02:42 <jasta> not in an 0.9r1 release ;)
Aug 20 09:02:49 <romainguy> well
Aug 20 09:02:56 <jasta> in M5, yeah ;)
Aug 20 09:03:20 <romainguy> when you fling a listview, it basically does the equivalent of tons of notifyDatasetChanged
Aug 20 09:03:30 <romainguy> and it's fast enough
Aug 20 09:03:55 <romainguy> so most of the time, the simplest optimization is to fire a dataset changed if the affected position is visible on screen
Aug 20 09:03:55 <jasta> and the advantage with this abstraction is that it centralizes very neatly all the code with assumptions.  it would be trivial to disable all this and just have it always return null and then the usage would have to fire notifyDataSetChanged anyway.
Aug 20 09:04:25 <jasta> didn't you say earlier that for progress updates, that wouldn't be a good idea? :)
Aug 20 09:04:25 <romainguy> again you do whatever you want
Aug 20 09:04:31 <romainguy> yes
Aug 20 09:04:39 <romainguy> but you seem to want to use this for any update
Aug 20 09:04:40 <jasta> well, that's what the activity does that uses this ;)
Aug 20 09:04:42 <romainguy> and that's a bad idea
Aug 20 09:04:50 <romainguy> I know ListView very very very well
Aug 20 09:05:08 <romainguy> and believe me when I say that it can be very tricky to try to alter the way it works
Aug 20 09:05:15 <romainguy> not that it's not possible
Aug 20 09:05:37 <romainguy> but I've seen many applications try to do fancy things that ended up triggering very subtle issues
Aug 20 09:05:58 <romainguy> very often as we changed the implementation of ListView
Aug 20 09:05:59 <jasta> at least mine degrades nicely :)
Aug 20 09:06:10 <jasta> if it had to be thrown away entirely it would not be hard to do
Aug 20 09:06:20 <romainguy> I just don't think that your "optimization" is worth the risks
Aug 20 09:06:26 <jasta> since all it's doing is adding code to replace the need to call one simple function: notifyDataSetChanged
Aug 20 09:06:29 <romainguy> *if* you try to use it for any update
Aug 20 09:06:52 <romainguy> if you just change the rendering of the views, that's fine
Aug 20 09:06:59 <jasta> romainguy: how could the risks be acceptable in one usage and not in another?  the code must be correct if used often or just once.
Aug 20 09:07:00 <romainguy> just don't do that when you change the actual data
Aug 20 09:07:06 <romainguy> no
Aug 20 09:07:29 <romainguy> because when you update the progress you just update some visual feedback, not the number of items in the adapter
Aug 20 09:07:35 <romainguy> nor the actual data content of each item
Aug 20 09:07:52 <romainguy> in these cases you really want to let ListView know about the change
Aug 20 09:07:52 <jasta> but that can be updated regardless.  its backed by a cursor which can change at any time.
Aug 20 09:08:34 <romainguy> as long as ListView gets its notifyDatasetChanged when the data changes, that's fine
Aug 20 09:08:51 <jasta> is there a case that it won't!?
Aug 20 09:08:57 <romainguy> argh
Aug 20 09:09:14 <romainguy> it's an answer to your question about using your fancy ListView in generic cases
Aug 20 09:09:19 <romainguy> I'm telling you it's no always okay
Aug 20 09:09:58 <romainguy> anyway
Aug 20 09:09:59 <romainguy> bed time
Aug 20 09:10:06 <jasta> when i say general in this case, i don't mean to update both the backing data and the UI fluff alike.  this class is only for updating UI fluff not backed by the cursor.
Aug 20 09:10:12 <jasta> non-persistent stateful data
Aug 20 09:10:33 <jasta> shit like progress of syncs, current playing song, bla bla.  no other usage is valid by my own contract.
Aug 20 09:10:53 <jasta> so i'd have to misuse my own code to misuse yours ;)
Aug 20 09:20:11 <jasta> ohh neat, Gears seems to be included in 0.9r1 :)
Aug 20 09:30:24 <anno^da_> romainguy: Just for your info. The video recording is not supported in the current SDK. That's why the MediaRecorder fails while being started.
Aug 20 09:31:51 <jasta> anno^da_: what are you working on? :P
Aug 20 09:33:13 <anno^da_> haha always the same :). Recording audio,video,pictures and creating text content on the go. And getting it directly on flickr, tumblr, twitter, etc. Just some mobile blogging app with as less as possible interface or settings you have to take.
Aug 20 09:33:38 <jasta> neat :)
Aug 20 09:33:40 <anno^da_> Just decide video/text/audio/image
Aug 20 09:33:42 <jasta> how well along are you?
Aug 20 09:35:18 <anno^da_> Well at the moment it is possible to take a picture/video (ok video is faked after the broken recorder :) ) /audio/text get it on Tumblr, save the pictures at Flickr, save the videos at Vimeo and announce your post on Twitter and setup a ping for the new Blog post at Technorati.
Aug 20 09:35:56 <anno^da_> So the centra point is Tumblr at the moment. And for saving the content Flickr, Vimeo. And announcing is done by Twitter, Technorati.
Aug 20 09:36:18 <anno^da_> the Tumblr post embedds the Flickr pictures or Vimeo videos.
Aug 20 09:36:34 <jasta> nice
Aug 20 09:36:56 <anno^da_> and the pictures get the actual Geo location added. :)
Aug 20 09:37:41 <cutmasta_> if gps chip is in the device
Aug 20 09:37:42 <cutmasta_> :)
Aug 20 09:37:49 <anno^da_> Thats it. :-)
Aug 20 09:37:56 <cutmasta_> but without
Aug 20 09:38:01 <anno^da_> and if the lastknownLocation is good enough
Aug 20 09:38:05 <cutmasta_> the whole device with android makes no sense
Aug 20 09:38:26 <cutmasta_> location based services is a must have to compete with iphone for exmaple
Aug 20 09:38:27 <anno^da_> has someone asked why the removed the getCurrentLocation?
Aug 20 09:39:32 <cutmasta_> good questions
Aug 20 09:39:34 <cutmasta_> -s
Aug 20 09:40:05 <jasta> hmm, yo ucant double tap the screen to zoom in on maps?  that sucks
Aug 20 09:40:27 <anno^da_> hmm what is the easiest way to get sth on to the sd card ?
Aug 20 09:40:38 <jasta> just put it there.
Aug 20 09:40:58 <anno^da_> hmm well it says that its just read only
Aug 20 09:41:26 <anno^da_> or do I have to create one again? (I've just seen it in the DDMS view)
Aug 20 09:41:27 <jasta> it isn't.  check the permissions of your faked sdcard img
Aug 20 09:41:32 <anno^da_> ah ok.
Aug 20 09:41:39 <jasta> but don't hardcode /sdcard
Aug 20 09:41:43 <anno^da_> just thought it is included now.
Aug 20 09:41:47 <jasta> there's some property somewhere to give you that path
Aug 20 09:41:50 <jasta> i forgot how
Aug 20 09:41:54 <anno^da_> yeah
Aug 20 09:41:55 <jasta> but its there
Aug 20 09:42:10 <anno^da_> just wanted to test the sample apps :)
Aug 20 09:42:18 <anno^da_> image viewer of media player
Aug 20 09:42:21 <anno^da_> or
Aug 20 09:43:20 <tric> anno^da: audio recording into a stream is working in current sdk?
Aug 20 09:44:08 <anno^da_> no faked it.
Aug 20 09:44:14 <anno^da_> oh well
Aug 20 09:44:18 <anno^da_> I dont really no
Aug 20 09:44:26 <anno^da_> at the moment I have faked it
Aug 20 09:44:36 <anno^da_> but havent tested audio
Aug 20 09:44:42 <anno^da_> video doesnt work.
Aug 20 09:44:46 <tric> ok. me too. and i didnt try with new sdk. and prolly wont unless i know for sure its working
Aug 20 09:45:03 <anno^da_> I will test it later on today
Aug 20 09:45:24 <anno^da_> just have to update my normal system now to 0.9. After I haveported my app on the virtual machine.
Aug 20 09:46:47 <anno^da_> (btw Virtual Box is not that bad :) )
Aug 20 09:47:33 <jasta> i have stayed up til 3am 2 nights in a row now ;)
Aug 20 09:47:38 <jasta> suucccky times at work tomorrow ;)
Aug 20 09:47:43 <anno^da_> :D
Aug 20 09:48:35 <anno^da_> have you seen the firefox mobile video ?
Aug 20 09:48:47 <cutmasta_> anno^da_, ?
Aug 20 09:48:51 <anno^da_> I really like the way to use the browser
Aug 20 09:49:03 <cutmasta_> ah
Aug 20 09:49:06 <cutmasta_> yap
Aug 20 09:49:09 <cutmasta_> right
Aug 20 09:49:13 <anno^da_> http://who-knows.tumblr.com/ <- third post
Aug 20 09:51:20 <tric> anno: i still dont understand why you use virtualbox to develop for android
Aug 20 09:51:55 <anno^da_> I need the application for a presentation.
Aug 20 09:52:03 <anno^da_> And wasnt sure of porting or not.
Aug 20 09:52:13 <anno^da_> Dont want to lose that much time.
Aug 20 09:52:39 <anno^da_> So I've given myself one day to port it.
Aug 20 09:53:04 <anno^da_> And didnt want to destroy the M5 environment.
Aug 20 09:55:59 <tric> ah ok
Aug 20 09:57:12 <anno^da_> and now it is ported after a lot of hours that I replaced all the multipart things :)
Aug 20 10:05:54 <plusminus_> hm, anyone knows how often the Android SDK has been downloaded? Do I remember something like 700.000 correctly?
Aug 20 10:06:53 <anno^da_> has eclipse found the update or did you reinstall the plugin? Updating hmm doesnt really work here at the moment :)
Aug 20 10:07:15 <plusminus_> did not yet reinstall, too busy
Aug 20 10:07:59 <anno^da_> :-)
Aug 20 10:11:25 <tric> anno: i updated on 2 boxed. but on one of them i cannot create new android projects anymore. even after un and reinstalling
Aug 20 10:13:49 <anno^da_> What does it mean you can not create ? I had the problem that R didnt get updated anymore but I found the solution for that.
Aug 20 10:14:33 <plusminus_> how many active Android developers are out there in the whole world? What would you guess?
Aug 20 10:15:38 <plusminus_> 30k-50k ?
Aug 20 10:15:46 <cutmasta_> no
Aug 20 10:15:52 <cutmasta_> active max. 10k
Aug 20 10:16:13 <plusminus_> because of the Android-Google-Groups count?
Aug 20 10:16:42 <cutmasta_> no, just a quick thought
Aug 20 10:21:37 <alex2308> even less i believe
Aug 20 10:22:10 <tric> anno: NPE in the plugin while building the project
Aug 20 10:22:45 <alex2308> and most developers are beginners or students or hobby programmers
Aug 20 10:23:07 <cutmasta_> alex2308, think so too
Aug 20 10:34:26 <anno^da_> has someone has an "unknown socket error -1" while executing something with the HTTPClient?
Aug 20 10:35:00 <anno^da_> oh
Aug 20 10:35:01 <anno^da_> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.INTERNET" />
Aug 20 10:35:02 <anno^da_> )
Aug 20 10:35:05 <anno^da_> :)
Aug 20 10:35:51 <tric> yes. exactly ;)
Aug 20 10:36:11 <anno^da_> working now :D
Aug 20 10:36:18 <anno^da_> so the port is done *g*
Aug 20 10:36:57 <alex2308> anno^da_ do you use HTTPClient to get data from the internet?
Aug 20 10:37:17 <alex2308> (do you read the response stream?)
Aug 20 10:37:57 <anno^da_> Yeah I'm getting it and I parse the responses.
Aug 20 10:38:05 <anno^da_> JSON,XML, PLAIN everything
Aug 20 10:38:45 <cutmasta_> anno^da_, does the httpclient performs well?
Aug 20 10:38:50 <cutmasta_> and the json parser also?
Aug 20 10:39:01 <cutmasta_> i also work with an json http interface
Aug 20 10:39:04 <alex2308> may i have a look at it? anno^da_
Aug 20 10:42:03 <anno^da_> cutmasta_: well I like it. It works very straight forward and is really simple to use.
Aug 20 10:42:37 <tomgibara> Does anyone know what replaces the attribute <Gallery android:spinnerSelector=""> ?
Aug 20 10:42:40 <anno^da_> alex2308: later on. Please remind me in 20 minutes. Having to recreate my database funcionality.
Aug 20 10:42:51 <anno^da_> at the moment.
Aug 20 10:43:02 <cutmasta_> anno^da_, sounds very good
Aug 20 10:43:10 <cutmasta_> is also https working?
Aug 20 10:43:21 <cutmasta_> with self signed certs etc.
Aug 20 10:43:30 <anno^da_> ho havent tested https now.
Aug 20 10:43:36 <anno^da_> But I will try that.
Aug 20 10:43:44 <cutmasta_> ok
Aug 20 10:43:53 <anno^da_> Will implement the Delicious API later on.
Aug 20 10:43:54 <cutmasta_> would be interesting to get your test result :)
Aug 20 10:44:09 <anno^da_> and it uses https
Aug 20 10:44:14 <anno^da_> yeah no problem :)
Aug 20 10:44:28 <alex2308> anno^da_ no prob, will try to
Aug 20 10:47:06 <tric> anyone got a notifications example with 0.9 for me please?
Aug 20 10:47:48 <anno^da_> yeah
Aug 20 10:48:03 <anno^da_> look at the AlarmService example tric
Aug 20 10:48:06 <Dougie187> so is the nda over now that 0.9 is out?
Aug 20 10:48:33 <Dougie187> or is it still going?
Aug 20 10:49:05 <anno^da_> you have to implement all methods tric mentioned in the sample.
Aug 20 10:49:21 <anno^da_> Otherwise it will fail. I've got that problem 2 hours ago :-)
Aug 20 10:49:27 <anno^da_> alex2308: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/82790/
Aug 20 10:49:42 <tric> ah thx anno
Aug 20 10:50:27 <alex2308> anno^da_ whats clients class? GoogleHTTPClient?
Aug 20 10:50:58 <tric> dougie: i bet there are still nda
Aug 20 10:57:31 <anno^da_> alex2308: it is the normale DefaultHttpClient
Aug 20 10:57:42 <alex2308> ill try this one then
Aug 20 10:59:05 <alex2308> this is what i tried http://rafb.net/p/SO9Pl143.html (but it doesnt work)
Aug 20 11:00:10 <cutmasta_> alex2308,  does not work?
Aug 20 11:00:21 <cutmasta_> also with DefaultHttpClient =?
Aug 20 11:00:22 <alex2308> it says this thread forbids http requests
Aug 20 11:00:28 <alex2308> didnt try, will do later
Aug 20 11:00:30 <cutmasta_> use defaulthttpclient
Aug 20 11:03:15 <tric> btw, the emu is still single threaded, or is there some flag to enable smp or something like that?
Aug 20 11:09:45 <anno^da_> plusminus_: will you be in munich at the developer day ?
Aug 20 11:12:02 <tric> hmm, android dev day?
Aug 20 11:12:14 <plusminus_> nope, I'm in U.S. for an Internship the next 6 months, startign netx week
Aug 20 11:12:14 <anno^da_> yeah in munich
Aug 20 11:12:27 <Dougie187> damn, where is your internship at/
Aug 20 11:12:29 <plusminus_> not Android-Dev-Day just "Google"
Aug 20 11:12:36 <anno^da_> yeah I know
Aug 20 11:12:43 <anno^da_> perhaps there will be sth about android :-)
Aug 20 11:12:47 <plusminus_> Maryland, College PArk
Aug 20 11:12:55 <plusminus_> Fraunhofer INstitute for bla...
Aug 20 11:12:55 <Dougie187> i mean what company.
Aug 20 11:13:02 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 20 11:13:05 <plusminus_> Experimental SOftware Engineering
Aug 20 11:13:05 <Dougie187> for bla?
Aug 20 11:13:09 <plusminus_> ;)
Aug 20 11:13:29 <Dougie187> i'm sure they appreciate the advertisement.
Aug 20 11:14:16 <plusminus_> ?
Aug 20 11:14:51 <Dougie187> "(07:12:55 AM) plusminus_: Fraunhofer INstitute for bla..."
Aug 20 11:14:54 <Dougie187> thats all.
Aug 20 11:15:02 <Dougie187> i thought it was humorous.
Aug 20 11:15:20 <Dougie187> Do you know what kinda stuff you will get to work on?
Aug 20 11:19:13 <tomgibara> Perhaps I'm being dumb, but I can't see where to get the IMEI number - has done this in the new SDK?
Aug 20 11:29:04 <alex2308> ill be in munich end of sep
Aug 20 11:29:09 <alex2308> to get drunk
Aug 20 11:30:02 <plusminus_> i hope before you'll be eating all snacks :D
Aug 20 11:30:37 <alex2308> i never poke if you meant this
Aug 20 11:32:11 <alex2308> btw free snacks in frankfurt today
Aug 20 11:32:35 <alex2308> hochhaus am park, 14th floor, starts 6.30 pm
Aug 20 11:42:52 <anno^da_> Could someone tell me what is wrong with that: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/82792/ . I'm trying to get a row (for service = tumblr) out of the database but if fails all the time. With M5 this worked. The database looks like this: http://img.skitch.com/20080820-gd39hr7sc38peyae4e88gj5awm.jpg  so there must be a service = tumblr.
Aug 20 11:45:39 <plusminus_> maybe a result.first() before testing !result.isFirst()
Aug 20 11:45:51 <plusminus_> seems like its moveToFirst() in v0.9
Aug 20 11:46:06 <plusminus_> This method will return false if the cursor is empty.
Aug 20 11:47:20 <alex2308> zwei dumme ein gedanke
Aug 20 11:47:28 <alex2308> �berhaupt finde ich die abfrage eigenartig
Aug 20 11:49:57 <anno^da_> ahh plusminus_ :) I've converted the first to the wrong method
Aug 20 11:51:09 <anno^da_> working now :)
Aug 20 11:51:20 <anno^da_> next time I will use the raw queries again
Aug 20 11:51:41 <anno^da_> Without them I'm producing sooo much errors :)
Aug 20 11:56:17 <plusminus_> ;)
Aug 20 12:04:14 <alex2308> wann fliegst du hisbollah plusminus_?
Aug 20 12:04:52 <plusminus_> ^^ in 6 tagen osama
Aug 20 12:05:26 <plusminus_> ...
Aug 20 12:05:39 <tric> nu wirst nimmer reingelasse
Aug 20 12:05:47 <plusminus_> :D
Aug 20 12:06:22 <alex2308> terrorist
Aug 20 12:06:27 <alex2308> bomb white house kill bush
Aug 20 12:06:29 <alex2308> :D
Aug 20 12:06:44 <alex2308> ich muss gespoofte packete absenden mit anddev als absender
Aug 20 12:07:32 <alex2308> omg, look, hisbollah.org links to anddev.org!
Aug 20 12:07:40 <alex2308> there must be a connection
Aug 20 12:07:53 <plusminus_> I'm so dead now...
Aug 20 12:08:07 <plusminus_> wtf
Aug 20 12:09:01 <alex2308> omg http://www.hisbollah.org/info.png
Aug 20 12:09:02 <plusminus_> witzbold
Aug 20 12:10:09 <plusminus_> Registrant Name:Alex Georgiev Registrant Street1:Tacitusstr. 68 Registrant Street2: Registrant Street3: Registrant City:Frankfurt Am Main Registrant State/Province: Registrant Postal Code:60439 Registrant Country:DE
Aug 20 12:10:59 <alex2308> its not updated, i transfered it to Nicolas Gramlich, Mannheimerstr 25, 69198 Schriesheim
Aug 20 12:12:17 <plusminus_> <no-comment>
Aug 20 12:12:25 <alex2308> :p
Aug 20 12:24:36 <anno^da_> cutmasta: you are using the LocationManager right ? Did you get a location through "lastKnownLocation()" ?
Aug 20 12:25:15 <anno^da_> I'm always getting a Nullpointer there and dont really know why. I've added all the permissions. With M5 I did get some Location. :)
Aug 20 12:26:16 <alex2308> anno^da_ im getting a security exception (didnt gave permission)
Aug 20 12:27:59 <alex2308> anno^da_: http://rafb.net/p/2npYPy74.html
Aug 20 12:28:50 <inZane-_> i have a similar problem with requestLocationUpdates()
Aug 20 12:29:06 <inZane-_> http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/07e56400d349817b
Aug 20 12:29:58 <anno^da_> inZane-_: have you added "<uses-permission android:name="android.permission.ACCESS_MOCK_LOCATION" />"
Aug 20 12:30:12 <anno^da_> But even with that permission it doesnt work for me
Aug 20 12:30:18 <alex2308> join hisbollah forces and ill tell you the right code
Aug 20 12:30:20 <alex2308> :p
Aug 20 12:30:23 <inZane-_> yeah same problem
Aug 20 12:35:21 <alex2308> join hisbollah. you get free email (yourname@hisbollah.org) if you join within next hour!
Aug 20 12:39:01 <cutmasta> anno^da_, no, i dont use location manager
Aug 20 12:39:14 <cutmasta> i just wanted to know if https with defaulthttpclient works
Aug 20 12:39:17 <cutmasta> :)
Aug 20 12:45:17 <anno^da_> yeah thats what I know just thought that you were the guy with the lM as well :-D
Aug 20 13:04:16 <inZane-> a google guy postet a "LocationSample" in the files section
Aug 20 13:04:16 <inZane-> http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers
Aug 20 13:04:25 <inZane-> lets check out if it works :-D
Aug 20 13:07:07 <inZane-> same problem
Aug 20 13:07:08 <plusminus_> looks simplier than in m5
Aug 20 13:07:11 <plusminus_> ^^
Aug 20 13:07:11 <inZane-> no location updates
Aug 20 13:07:12 <inZane-> jmpf
Aug 20 13:07:15 <inZane-> hmpf
Aug 20 13:07:47 <inZane-> 08-20 13:06:34.220: DEBUG/GpsLocationProvider(49): setMinTime 0
Aug 20 13:07:47 <inZane-> 08-20 13:06:34.289: DEBUG/GpsLocationProvider(49): startNavigating
Aug 20 13:07:50 <inZane-> and thats it
Aug 20 13:09:01 <inZane-> yes its much simpler
Aug 20 13:09:06 <inZane-> but it doesnt work :-D
Aug 20 13:12:14 <anno^da_> argh no updates again ?
Aug 20 13:13:28 <inZane-> jup
Aug 20 13:13:47 <tric> you have to move your emu around!
Aug 20 13:15:01 <inZane-> lol
Aug 20 13:15:20 <cutmasta> lol
Aug 20 13:22:14 <anno^da_> a haha tric
Aug 20 13:22:15 <anno^da_> :)
Aug 20 13:23:24 <inZane-> ahh
Aug 20 13:23:30 <inZane-> i hate new sdk
Aug 20 13:23:35 <inZane-> one problem follows another
Aug 20 13:23:44 <inZane-> i cant abort the sms broadcast :-(
Aug 20 13:24:19 <plusminus_> there are always problems in the first days of new sdks
Aug 20 13:25:33 <inZane-> "BroadcastReceiver trying to return result during a non-ordered broadcast
Aug 20 13:25:41 <inZane-> "
Aug 20 13:26:02 <alex2308> haha, and i cant receive sms messages
Aug 20 13:26:22 <inZane-> receiving works
Aug 20 13:26:31 <inZane-> at least for me
Aug 20 13:26:32 <inZane-> ^^
Aug 20 13:26:41 <alex2308> ive to check the service registering part
Aug 20 13:26:59 <muthu> for location updates:    public void requestLocationUpdates(String provider, long minTime, float minDistance, LocationListener listener)
Aug 20 13:27:16 <muthu> you might want to change the minTime, and minDistance to something other than 0
Aug 20 13:27:51 <inZane-> i already changed the values
Aug 20 13:27:54 <inZane-> but nothing
Aug 20 13:28:09 <inZane-> getLastKnownLocation doesnt work either
Aug 20 13:28:56 <inZane-> the map application supplied by android also has this problem
Aug 20 13:29:16 <inZane-> if you click the "My Location" menu item
Aug 20 13:29:16 <inZane-> its like
Aug 20 13:29:21 <inZane-> "trying to resolve your location..."
Aug 20 13:29:38 <inZane-> and some secs later "unable to bblabla"
Aug 20 13:31:15 <Acsia> does anybody know where driving direction has done?
Aug 20 13:31:22 <Acsia> hey muthu how is it going?
Aug 20 13:31:31 <Acsia> how s your cooking app?
Aug 20 13:42:27 <plusminus_> muthu: the 0 comes from the official example. Maybe it means give me every single damn location-update ;)
Aug 20 13:47:27 <alex2308> flood?
Aug 20 14:03:23 <inZane-> Acsia: can't find DrivingDirections either
Aug 20 14:03:45 <inZane-> maybe their were removed to avoid applicatino like AndNav :-)
Aug 20 14:03:50 <inZane-> *they
Aug 20 14:04:14 <muthu> oh yeah
Aug 20 14:04:19 <muthu> you need to push the updates
Aug 20 14:04:31 <inZane-> what?
Aug 20 14:04:44 <tric> where were the /tmp directoy moved to? any simple location?
Aug 20 14:16:42 <swetland> it's gone
Aug 20 14:19:33 <plusminus_> inZane-: The Android-Built-In DrivingDirections Class was not working properly! Therfore I created my own implementation: http://www.anddev.org/route_-_improved_google_driving_directions-t1892.html
Aug 20 14:21:19 <alex2308> swetland: where do we drop files now
Aug 20 14:44:21 <muthu> jamaicans rule the tracks!
Aug 20 14:51:08 <anno^da_> haha
Aug 20 14:51:17 <anno^da_> I dont believe him :-)
Aug 20 15:27:03 <anno^da_> oh my good I have something for all the german readers here: "Android soll wohl eine Touchscreen-Unterstützung haben, mit GPS klarkommen und auch im Bereich “Ajax” gut da stehen. "  One more buzzword needed? Touchscreen,GPS AND Ajax. Wow Android must be the killer os. :P
Aug 20 15:30:43 <muthu> is there a way to connect to the emulator sqlite db?
Aug 20 15:34:17 <cbeust_> adb shell sqlite3
Aug 20 15:35:43 <muthu> does that work?
Aug 20 15:35:55 <muthu> looks like sqlite3 is removed from adb shell
Aug 20 15:48:14 <morrildl> yeah sqlite3 was removed from the emulator system image
Aug 20 15:48:23 <morrildl> that might have been intentional, I'm trying to figure it out
Aug 20 15:48:40 <morrildl> the BIG problem is that due to an oversight we didn't ship the sqlite3.exe binary in the Windows SDK
Aug 20 15:48:42 <morrildl> we are working on that
Aug 20 15:48:49 <muthu> ok, the only way right now is to use adb pull
Aug 20 15:50:44 <inZane-> morrildl: do you know what happened to DrivingDirections in the new SDK?
Aug 20 15:51:05 <zhobbs> morrildl: doh, I used sqlite3 all the time in adb shell
Aug 20 15:51:23 <jasta> oh boy
Aug 20 15:51:26 <jasta> soooooooo tired :)
Aug 20 15:52:45 <jasta> why don't you guys just compile it and throw it back on there?
Aug 20 15:53:04 <jasta> or, hell, i'm sure the ELF format hasn't changed.  just copy the old one.
Aug 20 15:53:05 <morrildl> jasta: we are definitely going to provide a Windows build of sqlite3.exe
Aug 20 15:53:30 <morrildl> jasta: I'm not sure we CAN include sqlite3 in the emu image without rebuilding the system image, which would be a whole new SDK release
Aug 20 15:53:35 <morrildl> anyway we are looking into it
Aug 20 15:54:04 <jasta> you can't, maybe, but we could.  it's not a custom sqlite3 AFAICT.
Aug 20 15:54:27 <morrildl> jasta: correct
Aug 20 15:55:17 <muthu> which port does the sqlite db server run on?
Aug 20 15:56:05 <muthu> can we use sqlmanager to connect direct to the emulator db ?
Aug 20 15:56:27 <jasta> muthu: sqlite does not use sockets for communication.
Aug 20 15:56:35 <muthu> right
Aug 20 15:56:40 <jasta> there is no server.  it just opens the file and locks it.
Aug 20 15:56:54 <muthu> in that case
Aug 20 15:57:00 <morrildl> that's why it's "SQL-lite" :)
Aug 20 15:57:11 <muthu> agree ;)
Aug 20 15:57:26 <muthu> so how to access the db file from outside emu?
Aug 20 15:57:50 <morrildl> muthu: adb pull /data/app/<package>/databases/<table>.db
Aug 20 15:57:53 <cbeust_> adb pull it
Aug 20 15:57:57 <morrildl> and then run sqlite3 on it on
Aug 20 15:58:02 <muthu> without pull..
Aug 20 15:58:08 <morrildl> muthu: you cannot
Aug 20 15:58:19 <muthu> ok
Aug 20 15:59:04 <jasta> muthu: just put the binary back on.  the damn thing is probably statically linked.
Aug 20 15:59:24 <jasta> if not, download sqlite3 and build a static one
Aug 20 15:59:29 <muthu> yeah, that might work
Aug 20 15:59:33 <morrildl> jasta: probably
Aug 20 15:59:40 <jasta> if its static, muthu, i know that it will work.
Aug 20 16:01:22 <jasta> if not, it still probably will.  id oubt they tore up that much in the standard C library :)
Aug 20 16:01:52 <morrildl> jasta: actually there were quite a lot of bugfixes, it wouldn't surprise me
Aug 20 16:02:54 <jasta> bug fixes wouldn't cause a shared library to become incompatible.  the two don't need to be EABI compatible.
Aug 20 16:03:27 <jasta> not internally, i mean.  only the interfaces between the two do.  those interfaces are defined by ANSI C, so i doubt Google has elected to change the contract :)
Aug 20 16:03:48 <morrildl> well, part of it is ANSI C, part of it is POSIX
Aug 20 16:04:28 <jasta> that's true, i was oversimplifying.  but regardless, sqlite3 ain't using Google interfaces, just a Google implementation of existing standards
Aug 20 16:04:42 <morrildl> yeah, but bionic doesn't support 100% of POSIX
Aug 20 16:04:53 <morrildl> if you ask me what parts, I couldn't answer that :)
Aug 20 16:04:57 <jasta> morrildl: wouldn't matter, so long as you supported at least as much as you did last time you build sqlite3
Aug 20 16:05:03 <morrildl> true.
Aug 20 16:05:08 <jasta> built*
Aug 20 16:05:20 <morrildl> and anything that would have been removed would not have worked anyway (which is why it would have been removeD)
Aug 20 16:05:37 <morrildl> anyway this is all academic
Aug 20 16:05:44 <morrildl> the thing to do is to try :)
Aug 20 16:06:17 * jasta is not unsure of himself in this area :)
Aug 20 16:07:06 <jasta> i don't need to do any speculation when it comes to UNIX and C :)
Aug 20 16:07:30 <jasta> anyway, off to work.
Aug 20 16:27:12 <muthu> GTalk is gone!
Aug 20 16:27:52 <muthu> device to device communication now boils down to sms..
Aug 20 16:32:04 <jasta> muthu: i noticed that.  i am very confused.
Aug 20 16:35:15 <tethridge> the "pinch" gesture is patented, right?
Aug 20 16:35:21 <romainguy_> re
Aug 20 16:35:53 <tethridge> re?
Aug 20 16:36:16 <tethridge> my guess that is why the finger swipe can't be done on the full screen image viewer
Aug 20 16:36:55 <tethridge> because of the way the interface uses the single figure to zoom
Aug 20 16:37:05 <tethridge> well, not zoom, but to move the image once zoomed
Aug 20 16:37:28 <tethridge> what does "re" mean?
Aug 20 16:38:09 <romainguy_> french way to say "I'm back"
Aug 20 16:38:36 <tethridge> romainguy_, are you french?
Aug 20 16:41:47 <zhobbs> so can we do anything with the homescreen now?  like create widgets/shortcuts?
Aug 20 16:42:46 <jasta> i heard we can create shortcuts to intents, but nothing more.
Aug 20 16:42:52 <jasta> no custom widgets
Aug 20 16:43:25 <romainguy_> tethridge: yes I am
Aug 20 16:43:33 <romainguy_> zhobbs: you can do two things
Aug 20 16:43:41 <romainguy_> install/uninstall shortcuts
Aug 20 16:43:43 <morrildl> a Widgets API is likely appear in a future release
Aug 20 16:43:52 <romainguy_> or, and that's mor einteresting, expose a shortcut creation activity to Home
Aug 20 16:43:54 <zhobbs> morrildl: post 1.0?
Aug 20 16:43:56 <morrildl> but there are no concrete plans as to when
Aug 20 16:43:58 <romainguy_> zhobbs: post 10
Aug 20 16:44:01 <romainguy_> 1.0
Aug 20 16:44:01 <morrildl> zhobbs: yes
Aug 20 16:44:21 <romainguy_> zhobbs: for instance if you do Menu > add > shortcut > contact
Aug 20 16:44:25 <romainguy_> then pick a contact
Aug 20 16:44:28 * morrildl is amused by the one article whose reporter somehow concluded that the Home widgets are written using Gears
Aug 20 16:44:46 <romainguy_> what happens is: Home asks the system for all activities with the intent filter CREATE_SHORTCUT
Aug 20 16:45:06 <romainguy_> then Home launches the Contacts one with the CREATE_SHORTCUT intent
Aug 20 16:45:17 <romainguy_> then Contacts set its result to be an Intent
Aug 20 16:45:25 <romainguy_> that Intent contains an Intent, a name and an icon
Aug 20 16:45:33 <romainguy_> and Home puts all that on the workspace
Aug 20 16:45:35 <zhobbs> romainguy_: awesome
Aug 20 16:45:47 <romainguy_> the idea is that you would use that to create shortcuts to things INSIDE applications
Aug 20 16:45:57 <romainguy_> imagine shortcuts to locations in maps
Aug 20 16:46:12 <romainguy_> or shortcuts to a folder in a file manager
Aug 20 16:46:19 <romainguy_> etc.
Aug 20 16:46:31 <romainguy_> and the icon can be either a resource from the app or a Bitmap
Aug 20 16:46:42 <zhobbs> great, will put a tutorial for this on helloandroid.com :)
Aug 20 16:46:50 <romainguy_> for instance, if your contacts have a photo associated with them, the photo shows up on Home
Aug 20 16:47:19 <romainguy_> you can also send the Intent INSTALL_SHORTCUT to Home to directly add a new shortcut
Aug 20 16:47:20 <zhobbs> cool, deleting shortcuts is nice
Aug 20 16:47:25 <zhobbs> drag/drop
Aug 20 16:47:25 <romainguy_> this requires a permission though
Aug 20 16:47:32 <romainguy_> Gears uses this feature
Aug 20 16:48:33 <zhobbs> thanks for the info
Aug 20 16:56:16 <jasta> does anyone know of a way to try to figure out what would be thrashing the disk on Linux?
Aug 20 16:56:43 <jasta> i have gkrellm running and i can clearly see that trivial things like opening terminals and stuff result in lots of I/O on my main disk
Aug 20 16:56:54 <jasta> vmware, which is normally hosted on a separate drive, also has tons of I/O on the main disk
Aug 20 16:57:00 <jasta> like the disk is swapping
Aug 20 16:57:07 <jasta> but i can see no evidence of swapping.
Aug 20 16:57:20 <ttuttle> jasta: tempfiles?
Aug 20 16:57:33 <jasta> i've only ever seen this behaviour on my crummy Dell workstation at work, but still i want to figure out what tools i can use to diagnose this
Aug 20 16:57:46 <jasta> ttuttle: i thought that, so i scanned through lsof and /tmp but couldn't find anything useful
Aug 20 16:58:10 <ttuttle> jasta: run top, look for processes in D state?
Aug 20 17:00:17 <jasta> that's a good idea, but i don't think that's what's happening now
Aug 20 17:00:19 <jasta> hang on, ill try
Aug 20 17:05:56 <jasta> ttuttle: well, during the heavy I/O, i do see vmplayer, kjournald, and pdflush
Aug 20 17:06:01 <jasta> but the latter two i expect as a result of the I/O
Aug 20 17:06:09 <ttuttle> Okay.
Aug 20 17:06:13 <jasta> and generally i would trust that vmplayer is doing I/O as well
Aug 20 17:06:18 <ttuttle> So VMware is doing a lot of I/O.
Aug 20 17:06:28 <jasta> the problem does seem to be exaggerated by vmplayer, but i don't know that it's directly causing it
Aug 20 17:07:01 <jasta> i just opened urxvt, and gkrellm reported about 4MB/s on /dev/sda for a second or two, then opened the terminal
Aug 20 17:07:05 <jasta> and it took forever compared to normal
Aug 20 17:07:45 <ttuttle> jasta: Sounds like your disk cache and throughput is being thrashed.
Aug 20 17:08:09 <ttuttle> jasta: If I'm copying or otherwise reading a lot of files, it normally takes a *lot* longer to start programs, as they're out of cache, and have to wait in the disk queue longer to load.
Aug 20 17:08:24 <jasta> yes, it does.  but i don't have any good tools to diagnose for sure.
Aug 20 17:08:31 <jasta> i dont know of any i mean
Aug 20 17:10:29 * jasta experiments with /proc/sys/vm/swappiness
Aug 20 17:10:42 <jasta> hell, maybe the disk performance is just really bad in general and linux is doing it's job just fine
Aug 20 17:10:57 <ttuttle> jasta: Maybe you're running out of I/O bandwidth in general?
Aug 20 17:13:31 <jasta> what do you mean?
Aug 20 17:14:13 <jasta> interesting.  adjusting swappiness to 0 seems to have a profoundly positive effect
Aug 20 17:14:37 <jasta> disk I/O still seems higher on sda than i would expect, though, but dramatically reduced none-the-less
Aug 20 17:16:30 <jasta> spoke too soon i think
Aug 20 17:16:41 <jasta> starting up vmplayer fresh still has tons of disk I/O on /dev/sda
Aug 20 17:16:48 <jasta> despite the image booting off /dev/sdb
Aug 20 17:52:20 <jasta> ttuttle: i just rebooted which is what i normally do to fix this issue
Aug 20 17:52:34 <jasta> and then i fire up vmplayer when i get back into the ssytem, and the behaviour is entirely different
Aug 20 17:52:37 <jasta> as it always is
Aug 20 17:52:46 <jasta> there's hardly any writes to sda, all of the I/O to fire up vmplayer is in sdb
Aug 20 18:24:29 <SanMehat> re:
Aug 20 18:34:16 <jasta> yawn
Aug 20 18:34:29 <SanMehat> mornin
Aug 20 18:34:40 <jasta> it's so funny how this channel exploded with googlers after you guys launched 0.9 :)
Aug 20 18:34:47 <SanMehat> hahaha
Aug 20 18:34:56 <jasta> Romain's the only one that weathered the storm ;)
Aug 20 18:35:09 <SanMehat> hey i'm still here lol
Aug 20 18:35:14 <jasta> I honestly respect that.
Aug 20 18:38:02 <jasta> SanMehat: hey is there some dude named Marco Nelissen on the team?  i'd like his e-mail address if possible :)
Aug 20 18:39:14 <SanMehat> jasta: if you send me your email, i'd be happy to pass it on.
Aug 20 18:39:18 <SanMehat> email addy rather
Aug 20 19:08:47 * jasta fiddles with Eclim to make it work with Android better
Aug 20 19:08:50 <jasta> this thing is so f'n cool :)
Aug 20 19:12:14 <morrildl> jasta: holy shit
Aug 20 19:12:26 * morrildl bursts into tears
Aug 20 19:12:31 <morrildl> FINALLY
Aug 20 19:12:47 <morrildl> WHERE IS THE DOWNLOAD LINK FOR THE LOVE OF GOD
Aug 20 19:14:03 <jasta> morrildl: say what?
Aug 20 19:14:07 <morrildl> eclim
Aug 20 19:14:14 <jasta> oh yeah, i've been using it for months you know
Aug 20 19:14:25 <morrildl> it works?
Aug 20 19:14:34 <jasta> it's just that the Android specific integration was basically the suck.  because i hacked it together and i didn't do a very good job :)
Aug 20 19:14:39 <jasta> i'm working on doing it better now :)
Aug 20 19:14:49 <jasta> also, i was using a super old version of Eclim (because i needed one that worked with 3.2)
Aug 20 19:15:05 <jasta> but now that i upgraded i decided to take another crack at better Android support, and with 0.9r1 of course
Aug 20 19:15:09 <jasta> but yeah, it works fuckin awesom e;)
Aug 20 19:15:12 <morrildl> jasta: word
Aug 20 19:16:10 <morrildl> "The first, Vim, is arguably one of the best text editors in existence."
Aug 20 19:16:20 <morrildl> Insufficiently assertive! ;)
Aug 20 19:16:28 <jasta> Agreed.
Aug 20 19:16:50 * jasta left Vim for the first time in years to even dabble with Android
Aug 20 19:17:07 <jasta> anyway, i'm working on it today so maybe i'll hav esomething to report :)
Aug 20 19:17:10 <morrildl> argh, I didn't need a new toy to play with today
Aug 20 19:17:14 <jasta> i'll blog about it if i get it working satisfactorally
Aug 20 19:21:21 <morrildl> jasta: one could also write a vim plugin that just calls out to the various Android tools like DDMS, etc.
Aug 20 19:21:45 <romainguy_> btw
Aug 20 19:21:48 <morrildl> I wonder if that would be easier than trying to "frankenstein" together ADT and Eclim
Aug 20 19:21:51 <romainguy_> there's an Emacs script in tools/lib
Aug 20 19:22:02 <morrildl> romainguy_: oh yeah I totally forgot to mention that
Aug 20 19:22:05 <jasta> yeah, that might be easier.
Aug 20 19:22:05 * Cedric2 thinks that using vi bindings in Eclipse makes you lose too much in terms of other keybindings to be worth it
Aug 20 19:22:18 <jasta> morrildl: i will try that route, actually.  it will be much simpler for me to understand
Aug 20 19:22:23 <morrildl> Cedric2: that's why Eclim is awesome.  It's not vi bindings in Eclipse
Aug 20 19:22:34 <morrildl> Cedric2: it's vim, with a bridge to a headless Eclipse
Aug 20 19:22:38 <jasta> Cedric2: Eclim is Eclipse headless for Vim to prod.
Aug 20 19:22:43 <Cedric2> Yeah, I saw
Aug 20 19:23:36 <jasta> i personally like Eclim because i don't use the thousands of silly features it has.  Eclim supports all the big time savers, and then lets me just have an efficient txt editor for everything else.
Aug 20 19:25:41 <Cedric2> I love both vi and Eclipse but getting used to the standard edit commands in Eclipse is really not that hard (it's also reusable to Word and other editors)
Aug 20 19:25:47 <Cedric2> s/Eclipse/emacs
Aug 20 19:29:12 <jasta> i honestly don't like how bulky it is.
Aug 20 19:29:27 <morrildl> Cedric2: emacs corrupts your brain
Aug 20 19:29:47 <morrildl> Cedric2: it distorts your neural pathways and the result is that you also write poorer code
Aug 20 19:29:49 <morrildl> ;)
Aug 20 19:31:22 <Cedric2> I think I turned out ok.  Ok, maybe not.
Aug 20 19:35:36 <jasta> morrildl: seriously, eclim is awesome though.  it even does the whole auto-correcting your source crap
Aug 20 19:35:40 <jasta> shows you errors, suggests fixes
Aug 20 19:35:52 <jasta> override/implement methods, generate getters, etc.
Aug 20 19:35:58 <jasta> all the big ones are very nicely integrated.
Aug 20 19:36:12 <jasta> it does support ant and maven somehow, but i haven't fiddled with it yet
Aug 20 19:36:21 <jasta> it's super polished, though.
Aug 20 19:36:49 <morrildl> jasta: does it do source reformatting and organize imports?
Aug 20 19:37:43 <jasta> yes
Aug 20 19:38:02 <jasta> well, actually not reformatting (but Vim does that)
Aug 20 19:40:12 <jasta> it even uses vim standrd ^X for code completes :)
Aug 20 19:40:20 <jasta> check this: http://eclim.sourceforge.net/vim/code_completion.html
Aug 20 19:41:12 <xavd> for good ADT support in eclim we'd need to be able to run adt headless. Right now there's no ui/core separation in the android plugins like most of the platform plugins :(
Aug 20 19:41:38 <jasta> oh yeah, and one of the binds they recommend is pretty sweet.  opens firefox and loads javadoc for the class under the cursor
Aug 20 19:41:45 <jasta> really sweet :)
Aug 20 19:42:01 <jasta> xavd: i decided it might be easiest/best to just implement all this myself actually
Aug 20 19:42:27 <jasta> all that i *really* need is a clean way to build/deploy
Aug 20 19:42:38 <jasta> which i can just hardcode all the comamdns from the real system
Aug 20 19:42:50 <xavd> jasta: look at ddmlib.jar in tools/lib
Aug 20 19:43:12 <xavd> with some hacking you could run ddms headless from that jar
Aug 20 19:43:25 <xavd> which will give you debug support
Aug 20 19:44:00 <jasta> oh tahts true, debug would be helpful
Aug 20 19:44:22 <jasta> i wish i had time to make this a real project :)
Aug 20 19:44:30 <xavd> for building, well the source of the new ADT has been put online, so you could always figure something out
Aug 20 19:44:35 <jasta> it could be a huge hit with open source hackers ;)
Aug 20 20:06:25 <Acsia> jasta have you seen android-bolt? it uses ruby console to use ant under irb so you can deploy/run tests
Aug 20 21:17:45 <umdk1d3> hmm
Aug 20 21:18:41 <umdk1d3> can we define <scale> animations in xml?  it seems to be giving me errors that android:fromX, etc arent found, and that @android:anim/linear_interpolator is private.  trying to follow the example shown in ApiDemos/res/anim/fade.xml
Aug 20 21:24:19 <umdk1d3> aha found some stuff in hyperspace_out.xml
Aug 20 21:29:00 <anno^da_> no video recording in 1.0 :/ sounds pretty bad :(.
Aug 20 21:43:41 <umdk1d3> o.o 08-20 21:43:08.432: WARN/System.err(2046): java.net.SocketException: unknown error
Aug 20 21:43:57 <umdk1d3> but i have  android.permission.INTERNET  :/
Aug 20 21:44:32 <inZane-> did anyone already found out what happened with DrivingDirections?
Aug 20 21:44:42 <umdk1d3> inZane-: its private to Google
Aug 20 21:44:47 <umdk1d3> it was never meant to be exposed to us
Aug 20 21:45:00 <umdk1d3> with security tigtening up, its now been taken away
Aug 20 21:45:04 <inZane-> oh noes :-(
Aug 20 21:45:13 <umdk1d3> afaik there isnt an intent to launch the mapping app either
Aug 20 21:45:23 <umdk1d3> i realllllly need it badly
Aug 20 21:45:31 <inZane-> me too
Aug 20 21:45:34 <romainguy_> you can launch the Maps app with an intent
Aug 20 21:45:52 <umdk1d3> geo:0,0?from=here&to=there  for dirivng directions
Aug 20 21:46:04 <umdk1d3> would be AWESOME
Aug 20 21:46:27 <umdk1d3> romainguy_: but is there an intent for driving directions?
Aug 20 21:46:34 <romainguy_> ah
Aug 20 21:46:36 <romainguy_> I don't know about that
Aug 20 21:48:28 <inZane-> that sucks. my app gets more and more useless
Aug 20 21:48:39 <inZane-> i cant abort sms broadcast anymore
Aug 20 21:48:42 * umdk1d3 goes to advocate to a higher power
Aug 20 21:48:44 <inZane-> and now this ddd thing
Aug 20 21:48:56 <inZane-> *DD
Aug 20 22:10:30 <tomgibara> romainguy: Any reason that the anim resources slide_in_left and slide_in_right were kept public but the vertical ones were not?
Aug 20 22:14:26 <romainguy_> no idea
Aug 20 22:15:37 <tomgibara> just seems a bit odd, perhaps the former remain by oversight or the latter were removed by accident?
Aug 20 22:17:30 <romainguy_> most probably the latter
Aug 20 22:17:40 <romainguy_> we just kept public things that were in use in applications
Aug 20 22:17:48 <romainguy_> it's easier to make more things public than the opposite :)
Aug 20 22:22:12 <tomgibara> Naturally, fwiw my application was using them which is why I noticed
Aug 20 22:22:35 <tomgibara> Thanks for the pointer to the TelephonyManager
Aug 20 22:22:41 <romainguy_> just create your own animations
Aug 20 22:22:44 <romainguy_> it's pretty simple
Aug 20 22:26:26 <tomgibara> I've created plenty! But it's always nice to have them premade :)
Aug 20 22:50:50 * jasta begins redesigning Five's cache and content services to remove the old MediaPlayer hack
Aug 20 22:50:55 <jasta> and to introduce the new one :(
Aug 20 22:51:00 <jasta> *depressed*
Aug 20 22:54:24 <tomgibara> jasta: Have you tried out the localHttpServerStreamDuplicationHack ?
Aug 20 22:54:57 <jasta> i haven't functionally made it work yet, but i just started on its design (and a redesign of the content/cache service to support it)
Aug 20 22:55:13 <jasta> my original hack was worse, honestly, but it was only done beacuse it was easier and i assumed it could be removed.
Aug 20 22:55:33 <jasta> actually, when i hacked it that way i assumed that it would be gone within a month or two, once the ADC was over and the next version was out.
Aug 20 23:07:17 <Dougie187> hey Jasta
Aug 20 23:07:20 <Dougie187> hows it going?
Aug 20 23:09:22 <jasta> pretty good :)
Aug 20 23:09:29 <Dougie187> nice.
Aug 20 23:09:34 <Dougie187> i hear your happy about the new sdk
Aug 20 23:10:03 <jasta> overall, yes.  but it's quite likely that Five can't run well on 1.0.
Aug 20 23:10:10 <Dougie187> thats too bad.
Aug 20 23:10:20 <jasta> So I probably won't be releasing it officially until they fix the issue that blocks it.
Aug 20 23:10:31 <Dougie187> you mean it can't run well period on 1.0 or, it can't run without some modifications?
Aug 20 23:11:30 <jasta> that's yet to be seen.  i will have to take a performance hit and craete a kludgey local HTTP server to proxy the real requests to the server
Aug 20 23:11:37 <jasta> so that i can both stream and cache at the same time
Aug 20 23:12:14 <jasta> the problem, though, is that it introduces two additional streams for every non-cached song that is played.
Aug 20 23:12:50 <jasta> The performance overhead may be too great.  it's already sketchy how much work Five has to do.
Aug 20 23:13:06 <romainguy_> as long as you don't measure the performance impact...
Aug 20 23:13:07 <jasta> so it might boil down to a micro-optimization that is simply too much work to do temporarily
Aug 20 23:14:14 <jasta> Dougie187: it's also a *LOT* of extra work than what I thought I was getting.  I thought the MediaPlayer was going tos upport caching directly.
Aug 20 23:14:27 <Dougie187> thats too bad.
Aug 20 23:15:10 <jasta> romainguy_: i can't say on a real device, but it's *really* slow already on the emulator.  audio playback, HTTP streaming, and disk access add up ;)
Aug 20 23:15:43 <romainguy_> how many things do you stream at the same time?
Aug 20 23:15:47 <jasta> it also could use some major opts, which i will be doing regardless.
Aug 20 23:16:10 <jasta> romainguy_: no more than 1 of each of the three can be active at once.
Aug 20 23:17:00 <jasta> i currently can't tell whether it's just a poorly optimized "first try" type solution, or if maybe the emulator is just that much slower...
Aug 20 23:17:49 <romainguy_> traceview
Aug 20 23:18:12 <jasta> TraceView didn't reveal much, which has me leaning toward the emulator really just being that slow
Aug 20 23:18:13 <Dougie187> i think the new sdk is pretty cool though.
Aug 20 23:18:20 <jasta> or possibly the work load is really that high that Android will struggle
Aug 20 23:18:29 <jasta> Dougie187: oh yes, all around it's great.
Aug 20 23:18:37 <Dougie187> i love the new home screen.
Aug 20 23:18:42 <jasta> i am so thankful to be seeing some of the "basic" apps and the phone shit polishing out.
Aug 20 23:18:46 <Dougie187> its like 10 kinds of awesome.
Aug 20 23:18:54 <Dougie187> yeah
Aug 20 23:19:05 <romainguy_> Dougie187: we have more cool stuff for Home, but not for 1.0 :p
Aug 20 23:19:11 <Dougie187> too bad.
Aug 20 23:19:15 <Dougie187> its pretty awesome already.
Aug 20 23:19:25 <romainguy_> I want it to be awesomer :p
Aug 20 23:19:31 <Dougie187> hey romainguy_ are the ADC1 R1 people still under NDA?
Aug 20 23:19:37 <romainguy_> yes
Aug 20 23:19:39 <plusminus_> We'll shit bricks again!
Aug 20 23:19:49 <Dougie187> so then basically they are still a step ahead of us?
Aug 20 23:19:53 <romainguy_> Dougie187: at least for everything that's not in the public SDK
Aug 20 23:19:54 <romainguy_> uh?
Aug 20 23:19:55 <romainguy_> no
Aug 20 23:20:00 <Dougie187> ok
Aug 20 23:20:05 <Dougie187> ohh.
Aug 20 23:20:08 <Dougie187> so like they have the same sdk.
Aug 20 23:20:12 <Dougie187> but it just has some other stuff?
Aug 20 23:20:15 <jasta> Dougie187: they don't have the "same" sDK.
Aug 20 23:20:19 <romainguy_> they just cannot talk about what they heard/saw/used
Aug 20 23:20:22 <Dougie187> yeah i know.
Aug 20 23:20:24 <jasta> in fact, their SDK was buggier, and didn't include the fancy new home screen.
Aug 20 23:20:24 <romainguy_> but now they have the same SDK as you guys do
Aug 20 23:20:31 <Dougie187> ok
Aug 20 23:20:39 <Dougie187> thats basically just all i was curious about.
Aug 20 23:21:06 <Dougie187> but yeah, good work on the home screen romainguy_ its awesome.
Aug 20 23:21:24 <Dougie187> its going to be sweet when we get to use it on a real phone.
Aug 20 23:21:32 <jasta> romainguy_: anyway, regarding the efficiency of my app, I am spending the next couple of weeks churning through it redesigning some pieces i now know to be bottlenecks.
Aug 20 23:21:52 <jasta> getting the project out of that cowboy coding developer challenge mode :)
Aug 20 23:21:59 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 20 23:22:08 <jasta> so hoepfully performance will implicitly move up quite a lot and maybe i can get some real metrics on Five's applicability :)
Aug 20 23:22:08 <Dougie187> are you coding like crazy?
Aug 20 23:22:25 <jasta> Dougie187: quite a bit, yes.
Aug 20 23:22:31 <Dougie187> thats good.
Aug 20 23:22:37 <Dougie187> We might get hit by a hurricane tomorrow.
Aug 20 23:22:44 <jasta> exciting
Aug 20 23:23:00 <Dougie187> yeah. Fay is supposed to go right over the top of us tomorrow afternoon
Aug 20 23:23:51 <jasta> romainguy_: I do think that the efficiency loss of the local HTTP server approach will be significant, however.  Also, if the MediaPlayer ultimately absorbs the caching feature than it will have been a huge amount of wasted energy
Aug 20 23:24:10 <jasta> since the forking of the stream is pretty tricky when you look at supporting seeking.
Aug 20 23:24:26 <romainguy_> Also, if the MediaPlayer ultimately absorbs the caching feature than it will have been a huge amount of wasted energy << but not for 1.0
Aug 20 23:24:28 <jasta> -than +then
Aug 20 23:24:38 <romainguy_> which means that then you will have to wait for phones to be deployed on the market with that feature
Aug 20 23:25:14 <jasta> that doesn't force my hand.
Aug 20 23:25:36 <romainguy_> that's not the point
Aug 20 23:25:39 <Dougie187> i still have to look into the electric fence.
Aug 20 23:25:45 <romainguy_> I'm just reminding you of the downside of waiting
Aug 20 23:25:46 <jasta> i may decide that targeting 1.0 is not something i want to do.
Aug 20 23:25:55 <romainguy_> sure
Aug 20 23:26:03 <jasta> and raelistically, i don't think i'll be able to anyway.
Aug 20 23:26:06 <romainguy_> I'm just telling you that your target might be far away :)
Aug 20 23:26:22 <romainguy_> you can still target 1.0 but ship the app after the first phones are out :p
Aug 20 23:26:22 <jasta> Five is too far away from a production release to worry too much about that :)
Aug 20 23:26:49 <plusminus_> AndNav will probably never be :D
Aug 20 23:27:00 <jasta> plusminus_: never be?
Aug 20 23:27:02 <plusminus_> I'll start an idea-thread of "what could be done"
Aug 20 23:27:22 <plusminus_> GoogleMaps API ToS does not allow Turn-By-Turn apps
Aug 20 23:27:49 <Dougie187> i thought there were some in the ADC top 50 though.
Aug 20 23:27:58 <plusminus_> what qould be if I make the source open and let users do whatever they want to do :)
Aug 20 23:28:09 <jasta> plusminus_: excellent strategy
Aug 20 23:28:26 <jasta> someone somewhere is likely not to give a shit about Google's ToS :)
Aug 20 23:28:34 <Dougie187> hah
Aug 20 23:28:34 <plusminus_> But in the end I would be the complete ass anyway, thats what I fear :(
Aug 20 23:28:37 <romainguy_> jasta: it's also Navteq's
Aug 20 23:28:41 <romainguy_> and *they* might mind :)
Aug 20 23:28:47 <jasta> romainguy_: so?
Aug 20 23:29:06 <romainguy_> so you'd be violating a license
Aug 20 23:29:10 <plusminus_> Prison Break  Season 12, starring plusminus
Aug 20 23:29:12 <plusminus_> wohoo
Aug 20 23:29:16 <jasta> writing open soruce software is currently upheld in the US as a freedom of speech.  You cannot be the target of a lawsuit for the production of software, even if the distribution is illegal.
Aug 20 23:29:34 <plusminus_> sounds great jasta
Aug 20 23:29:43 <romainguy_> that doesn't make it morally acceptable when you know well that you are violating a commercial license
Aug 20 23:29:45 <plusminus_> we should have a closer talk :)
Aug 20 23:29:50 <jasta> not that i necessarily advocate this, i am simply expressing that the law clearly protects software developers.
Aug 20 23:29:53 <romainguy_> you do whatever you want though :)
Aug 20 23:29:56 <tomgibara> jasta: US law maybe
Aug 20 23:30:00 <romainguy_> it's not just about the law
Aug 20 23:30:13 <jasta> morally acceptable?  lol.
Aug 20 23:30:15 <romainguy_> there's a company who invested a lot of time and money in creating this data
Aug 20 23:30:15 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 20 23:30:21 <plusminus_> jasta what about a compiled version? --> No, I assume.
Aug 20 23:30:29 <Dougie187> yeah but then you have to think if people care about that romainguy_
Aug 20 23:30:45 <jasta> plusminus_: Compiled versions can be trickier, since the courst are often confused how to define the binaries.
Aug 20 23:30:46 <romainguy_> Dougie187: it's up to plusminus_ :)
Aug 20 23:30:47 <romainguy_> anyway
Aug 20 23:30:48 <Dougie187> which most people would not have a moral contradiction to doing this.
Aug 20 23:30:48 <plusminus_> but the Nav-APiI is accessible, so not using it is ... WTRF
Aug 20 23:30:59 <Dougie187> that it is.
Aug 20 23:31:05 <jasta> plusminus_: But mostly, the US makes it illegal to use things, not to distribute/possess/author them.  The DMCA is slowly encroaching in this right, of course.
Aug 20 23:31:16 <jasta> on this right*
Aug 20 23:31:18 <xavd> plusminus_: there's a different between providing directions, and real-time turn by turn direction based on your location
Aug 20 23:31:25 <tomgibara> I agree w/ romain on this, I'm a supporter of open source, but a company has the right to decide how their property is used
Aug 20 23:31:34 <plusminus_> You see, as I said, I'm probably the ass in the end.
Aug 20 23:31:43 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 20 23:31:55 <Dougie187> but werent you the ass in the beginning too then?
Aug 20 23:32:00 <Dougie187> since you decided to start it?
Aug 20 23:32:25 <plusminus_> romainguy_ Why doesn't Google create a Turn-By-Turn app themselve ?
Aug 20 23:32:30 <jasta> tomgibara: Well, actually, that's the great thing about the US.  Your rights are always balanced by the rights of others, and by the general public.
Aug 20 23:32:33 <plusminus_> I could do it, so you coudl do it 10x better...
Aug 20 23:32:45 <xavd> plusminus_: I encourage you to take a look at http://code.google.com/android/RELEASENOTES.html under Maps & Location (if you haven't already)
Aug 20 23:32:48 <romainguy_> plusminus_: I have no idea, maybe the license would cost way too much on our scale
Aug 20 23:33:15 <tomgibara> jasta: Can you give an example of what you mean?
Aug 20 23:33:24 <jasta> tomgibara: I ahve the right to not be harrassed by you.  But I don't have the right to hit you for it.  For example.  Companies have the right to control distirbution and copyright of their products, but they do not get to tramble on any other rights.
Aug 20 23:33:29 <jasta> for example, the freedom of speech.
Aug 20 23:33:32 <jasta> or fair use.
Aug 20 23:33:35 <xavd> plusminus_: turn by turn requires a special license (this is why you pay $100 to update your gps device to the "new" road every year, or pay $10/month to verizon)
Aug 20 23:33:39 <jasta> even if they wish to do: they cannot.
Aug 20 23:33:44 <jasta> to do so*
Aug 20 23:34:19 <tomgibara> naturally, but a company that assembles, at great expense,  a large amount of data, is well within their rights to exercise their copyrights
Aug 20 23:34:31 <plusminus_> xavd: "...will allow access to the full MapView API. In this release, ..."
Aug 20 23:34:34 <romainguy_> and that's where the morally acceptable comes into play
Aug 20 23:34:37 <plusminus_> full access :)
Aug 20 23:34:43 <jasta> tomgibara: Sure, but again, the US is designed to balance the rights of everyone together.
Aug 20 23:34:50 <romainguy_> plusminus_: directions != turn by turn
Aug 20 23:34:51 <Dougie187> but the only people they can exercise their right to is the people actually using the product.
Aug 20 23:35:02 <jasta> tomgibara: And no matter how much work you put into a product, it does not give you the right to tramble on other inalienable freedoms.
Aug 20 23:35:03 <tomgibara> But I don't quite see how that is relevant in this case
Aug 20 23:35:05 <xavd> plusminus_: to the API sure. When you can bet that getting your key will require you to accept a ToS...
Aug 20 23:35:06 <jasta> And thank god for that.
Aug 20 23:35:29 <jasta> tomgibara: This isn't really up to us to interpret.  The law has spoken on several cases relating to this, by the way.
Aug 20 23:35:41 <Dougie187> tomgibara: hes just saying the person who wrote the software can't get in trouble. the people using the software could though.
Aug 20 23:35:44 <jasta> They are available publicly as well.  The most publicized cases of course would be the DeCSS.
Aug 20 23:35:52 <jasta> DeCSS project*
Aug 20 23:36:20 <plusminus_> romainguy_ I know but I'm searching for a way not to be my code worthless (except what I learnd by coding it)
Aug 20 23:36:46 <Dougie187> So if they decided to, they could shell out lawsuits to the users who are using the software that violates their licenses.
Aug 20 23:36:47 <jasta> tomgibara: despite the money and energy put into protecting DVDs, no company has the right to imprison the author of the software which reversed their work.  As I asid, no one has the right to tramble on another's rights in order to exercise theirs.
Aug 20 23:36:47 <plusminus_> plusminus_: that grammar sucked
Aug 20 23:37:13 <tomgibara> I understand these points, and agree with them.
Aug 20 23:37:28 <tomgibara> But I still think there is a moral point to answer
Aug 20 23:37:28 <plusminus_> jasta thats true
Aug 20 23:37:39 <jasta> tomgibara: The freedom of speech is exceptionally important here, even if in the short term it can damage technologies or markets.
Aug 20 23:37:40 <Dougie187> tomgibara: personally, i don't think there is a moral point.
Aug 20 23:38:05 <Dougie187> tomgibara: i sort of think of it as options... or balancing the market.
Aug 20 23:38:06 <plusminus_> it is also not morally ok to crack CSS and publish an app that can crack
Aug 20 23:38:10 <jasta> Dougie187: i just thought the "moral" argument was humerous.  Comapnies operate within the letter of the law (SOMETIMES!), not a general moral code.
Aug 20 23:38:18 <Dougie187> heh yeah i know.
Aug 20 23:38:19 <jasta> Any moral code they do adopt was simply defined by them.
Aug 20 23:38:39 <jasta> So using the argument that a company has rights and taht you morally ought not interfere is laughably ironic
Aug 20 23:39:00 <jasta> The company limits themselves by the law, and so should you.  Period.
Aug 20 23:39:09 <Dougie187> because saying that you should develop something because some company wasted a lot of money and time into developing the same thing isn't a moral issue. thats just playing the market how you want to. i mean look at microsoft vs. linux. its sort of the same issue.
Aug 20 23:39:33 <Dougie187> microsoft vs. linux isnt worded well.. but lets say canonical for example.
Aug 20 23:39:36 <romainguy_> Dougie187: in this case the data doesn't belong to you...
Aug 20 23:39:40 <tomgibara> I'm not quite seeing this in the context of plusminus's problem
Aug 20 23:39:47 <Dougie187> well what if he created his own data?
Aug 20 23:40:14 <tomgibara> Then that would be fine wouldn't it
Aug 20 23:40:19 <Dougie187> sure.
Aug 20 23:40:48 <Dougie187> but also, by developing software that "uses" the data that he doesn't own, he isn't doing anything wrong. the only people who are are the people who actually "use" the data...
Aug 20 23:40:58 <tomgibara> I understand that too
Aug 20 23:41:01 <Dougie187> though i guess you could technically argue that he had to use it at some point to test it.
Aug 20 23:41:02 <Dougie187> but still.
Aug 20 23:41:09 <romainguy_> Dougie187: that's where the moral point gets into play
Aug 20 23:41:12 <jasta> Dougie187: you can't argue that, actually.
Aug 20 23:41:19 <jasta> Dougie187: the alw doesn't permit you to
Aug 20 23:41:32 <Dougie187> im not saying argue in the legal sense.
Aug 20 23:41:41 <Dougie187> im saying argue in the "he did it" sense.
Aug 20 23:42:04 <Dougie187> its not really going to help them "jail" him. but everyone knows he did it..
Aug 20 23:42:34 <jasta> Personally, I respect the freedoms that US law guarantees.  I would never condemn their usage.  Ever.
Aug 20 23:42:55 <Dougie187> Me either.
Aug 20 23:43:50 <Dougie187> I'll ask a question before i sound ignorant.
Aug 20 23:43:50 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 20 23:43:57 <jasta> by the way, Lawrence Lessig is my personal hero :P
Aug 20 23:44:00 <jasta> in case anyone cares
Aug 20 23:44:09 <romainguy_> that's extraneous ;-)
Aug 20 23:44:23 <Dougie187> so for this turn-by-turn direction stuff. it limits software that can be used on android?
Aug 20 23:44:28 <Dougie187> or just software that can access this data?
Aug 20 23:44:34 <jasta> i would happily refer you all to listen to some of his lectures or read some of his many free publications.  pure genius.
Aug 20 23:45:38 <Dougie187> noone?... ok
Aug 20 23:45:38 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 20 23:46:05 <xavd> Dougie187: I would think just software that uses this data. If you can get different data that you're allowed to use in this way (or same data with a different license), you should be able to do turn by turn direction on android
Aug 20 23:46:41 <romainguy_> you could probably go buy a license and do turn by turn :)
Aug 20 23:46:52 <plusminus_> for 1-2 dollars
Aug 20 23:47:00 <plusminus_> and some zeros behind
Aug 20 23:47:09 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 20 23:47:14 <plusminus_> (finite amount)
Aug 20 23:47:25 <tomgibara> jasta: I'm afraid that I still see a moral dimension to the decision for plusminus to distribute such an app.
Aug 20 23:47:37 <xavd> yeah, I think there's a reason updating maps for gps devices cost 80-100 *per device*
Aug 20 23:47:42 <plusminus_> \me did not yet decide to do anything
Aug 20 23:47:42 <romainguy_> tomgibara: which is not incompatible with freedom of speech :)
Aug 20 23:48:32 <Acsia> why not use openstreetmap?
Aug 20 23:48:34 <jasta> tomgibara: I didn't argue that he should ignore the moral dimension.
Aug 20 23:48:56 <plusminus_> acsia, map data is incomplete
Aug 20 23:49:05 <jasta> I only reminded him that there is no legal dimension as far as the US is concerned.  I believe he is German, which IIRC has recently enacted laws which could actually punish him for this.
Aug 20 23:49:12 <Acsia> sure but free and you could help build it up
Aug 20 23:49:15 <Acsia> that s the point
Aug 20 23:49:36 <jasta> I mean, Germany has recently done this :)  But I can't confirm that for sure.
Aug 20 23:49:42 <Acsia> similarly, the postcode info in the UK is held by the post office and you have to pay in order to get accurate data
Aug 20 23:49:46 <Acsia> now you have openpostcode
Aug 20 23:49:53 <tomgibara> jasta: Then it was a misunderstanding, because I was only trying to point out that, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right
Aug 20 23:50:21 <jasta> tomgibara: I think that point can be well appreciated by anyone here.
Aug 20 23:50:48 <Dougie187> sure.
Aug 20 23:50:52 <jasta> However, please everyone do appreciate that only law has a definition, not morality.
Aug 20 23:50:56 <Dougie187> but that can be thrown at anyone.
Aug 20 23:51:01 <jasta> So, don't be so presumptuous as to impose youreslf on others :)
Aug 20 23:51:19 <jasta> There are lots of justifiable reasons to violate another man's moral code.
Aug 20 23:51:35 <bitform> haha
Aug 20 23:51:43 <jasta> We all do it daily, I'm sure.
Aug 20 23:51:46 <Dougie187> yeah and companies do not typically use a moral compass that individuals would appreciate.
Aug 20 23:52:00 <plusminus_> Acsia: but maybe openstreetmaps are the last solution...
Aug 20 23:52:13 <Acsia> have you checked
Aug 20 23:52:17 <plusminus_> merging it with live-contribution to opensteetmaps could work
Aug 20 23:52:20 <Acsia>  http://gnuite.com/cgi-bin/gpx.cgi
Aug 20 23:52:36 <Dougie187> plusminus_: it might be worth it just to be able to release your app.
Aug 20 23:52:57 <plusminus_> but will increase the work to be done by infinity
Aug 20 23:53:03 <plusminus_> yeah :(
Aug 20 23:53:07 <jasta> tomgibara: the debate on basic freedoms is very important to me, and i try to fan the flames whenever possible, that's all.
Aug 20 23:53:08 <plusminus_> we'll see
Aug 20 23:53:14 <plusminus_> 2am got to get some sleep
Aug 20 23:53:22 <tomgibara> I was passing no judgement as to whether it was morally right or not. I did assert that a company has the right to exercise control over its data (with what is "reasonable")
Aug 20 23:53:23 <jasta> tomgibara: especially true in this modern context
Aug 20 23:53:26 <plusminus_> thx for your comments :)
Aug 20 23:53:27 <plusminus_> bye
Aug 20 23:53:53 <tomgibara> with -> within
Aug 20 23:54:33 <jasta> I have personally trampled on quite a few companies' "rights".  And I think msot of you have too.  Anyone play a DVD on Linux?
Aug 20 23:54:35 <umdk1d3> openstreet map is mostly just an imported version of TIGER data files in the US
Aug 20 23:54:42 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 20 23:54:45 <Dougie187> hells yeah.
Aug 20 23:54:50 <jasta> Or how about used hinted anti-aliased fonts on Linux?
Aug 20 23:55:01 <Dougie187> ionno about that one.
Aug 20 23:55:06 <jasta> Dougie187: Yes, you have.
Aug 20 23:55:10 <Dougie187> lol.. used napster when it came out?
Aug 20 23:55:13 <Dougie187> mr. gnapster.
Aug 20 23:55:27 <jasta> Debian and Ubuntu ignore Apple's patent.  Both organization ignore hundreds of software patents at their disgression.
Aug 20 23:55:55 <umdk1d3> jasta: most of the time they have it there to cover their butts if people go after them
Aug 20 23:55:59 <jasta> Dougie187: Even to produce Gnapster was to step on Napster's "rights".  I am not allowed to "steal" their technology from them.
Aug 20 23:56:19 <Dougie187> lol something i think is 100% "morally" wrong is freaking patent squatters.
Aug 20 23:56:25 <Dougie187> i hate those guys.
Aug 20 23:58:00 <Dougie187> though thats similar to domain squatters.
Aug 20 23:58:01 <jasta> Let's put this argument to bed: if any of your decisions are justifed exclusively by law or your sense of morality, you have failed :)
Aug 20 23:58:20 <Dougie187>  lol
Aug 21 00:09:43 <jasta> oh my god, traffic is horrible :(
Aug 21 00:10:24 <jasta> bbl, heading home.
Aug 21 00:30:13 <Acsia> thx g0d the logcat bug is resolved within eclipse
Aug 21 00:35:20 <Acsia> is the uses-library tag within the manifest a prelude to lib dependency and automatic installation?
Aug 21 01:09:28 <umdk1d3> is there a good way of arbritraily rotating a widget 90\degr?
Aug 21 01:09:35 <umdk1d3> for example, to get a vertical SeekBar
Aug 21 01:35:22 <vbabiy> Hey what replaced the IntentReciver/
Aug 21 01:45:21 <xavd> vbabiy: BroadcastReceiver
Aug 21 01:46:28 <vbabiy> xavd: thx
Aug 21 02:54:14 <vbabiy> Hey is anyone around?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Aug 21 02:59:56 2008