**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Aug 22 02:59:56 2008
Aug 22 03:09:03 <vbabiy> Hey is there a docs that show a reason and recommendation if a method was removed in the new version?
Aug 22 03:09:43 <yakischloba> We like to keep it a mystery around here actually.
Aug 22 03:10:00 <yakischloba> (I don't know, just kidding.)
Aug 22 03:10:09 <vbabiy> yakischloba: :0
Aug 22 03:10:11 <vbabiy> :)
Aug 22 03:10:39 <vbabiy> yakischloba: like showAlert is removed from the context but it doesn't tell you how to do that now
Aug 22 03:11:02 <meoblast001> yakischloba ignores me
Aug 22 03:11:11 <yakischloba> yeah I don't know. I haven't had time to load up the new SDK yet, haven't played with anything.
Aug 22 03:11:44 <meoblast001> i thought of a good idea today for an android app
Aug 22 03:11:46 <meoblast001> but i forgot it
Aug 22 03:12:29 <vbabiy> meoblast001: I can't wait for the phone to come out
Aug 22 03:12:49 <meoblast001> vbabiy: dont let yakischloba know im here
Aug 22 03:13:03 <vbabiy> meoblast001: ;) will do
Aug 22 03:13:19 <meoblast001> vbabiy: he'll mentally attack me
Aug 22 03:13:32 <meoblast001> and critisize me for being autistic
Aug 22 03:13:41 <vbabiy> since the SDK hit beta is the api frozen yet?
Aug 22 03:17:42 <vbabiy> meoblast001: any idea?
Aug 22 03:17:56 <meoblast001> vbabiy: im rather new here... and already everyone hates me
Aug 22 03:18:10 <vbabiy> :)
Aug 22 03:18:17 <vbabiy> yakischloba: you got any idea?
Aug 22 03:18:24 <meoblast001> its typical
Aug 22 03:18:30 <meoblast001> just like everywhere else i go
Aug 22 03:18:44 <meoblast001> school.... sports.... my house
Aug 22 03:18:54 <yakischloba> vbabiy: Not sure. I thought I saw someone say that it was pretty close to what its going to be, but don't take my word for it.
Aug 22 03:19:12 <vbabiy> yakischloba: i see
Aug 22 03:21:34 <meoblast001> how is android going to be on a tmobile phone if its not even stable yet?
Aug 22 03:25:46 <muthu> no major changes would be coming
Aug 22 03:25:59 <meoblast001> muthu:?
Aug 22 03:26:13 <muthu> its 0.9
Aug 22 03:26:31 <muthu> don't think they would make major changes for 1
Aug 22 03:26:49 <meoblast001> muthu: its close to stable?
Aug 22 03:26:56 <muthu> think so
Aug 22 03:27:12 <meoblast001> my freind was making comments on it
Aug 22 03:27:16 <meoblast001> saying it would never come out
Aug 22 03:27:17 <meoblast001> oh wait
Aug 22 03:27:21 <meoblast001> did i say freind?
Aug 22 03:27:24 <meoblast001> i dont have freinds
Aug 22 03:27:30 <muthu> oct 13 - dream is out
Aug 22 03:27:34 <meoblast001> this is just a member of my cross country team
Aug 22 03:27:44 <meoblast001> well.... he never even read anything about it
Aug 22 03:27:56 <meoblast001> he just heard me say "im getting a gphone when it comes out"
Aug 22 03:28:07 <muthu> iphone is out in india
Aug 22 03:28:13 <meoblast001> dream is tmobile only right?
Aug 22 03:28:16 <muthu> 31k for 8gb and 36k for 16gb
Aug 22 03:28:32 <muthu> dream is tmobile only right now
Aug 22 03:28:43 <meoblast001> =(
Aug 22 03:28:49 <meoblast001> i want a cheap sprint phone with android
Aug 22 03:28:58 <meoblast001> probably wont be happening soon
Aug 22 03:29:00 <meoblast001> i hate sprint
Aug 22 03:29:05 <meoblast001> they can suck me.... well you know what
Aug 22 03:30:32 <meoblast001> adobe makes me mad
Aug 22 03:31:56 <meoblast001> muthu: how are we sure the dream is comming out oct 13?
Aug 22 03:35:03 <muthu> its in tmobile site
Aug 22 03:36:35 <jasta> it is?
Aug 22 03:36:49 <muthu> yeah
Aug 22 03:37:00 <muthu> where you guys hiding ;)
Aug 22 03:37:01 <jasta> where?
Aug 22 03:37:15 <meoblast001> jasta really hates me
Aug 22 03:37:24 <jasta> i do?
Aug 22 03:37:28 <muthu> http://www.tmoworld.com/2008/08/everything-you-need-to-know-about-g1.html
Aug 22 03:37:51 <meoblast001> muthu: is SDL possible on Android?
Aug 22 03:38:05 <jasta> tmoworld.com is not t-mobile's site.
Aug 22 03:38:18 <muthu> what's SDL?
Aug 22 03:38:45 <meoblast001> Simple DirectMedia Layer
Aug 22 03:38:56 <muthu> no idea
Aug 22 03:38:59 <jasta> muthu: do you think that's t-mobile's site or something?  i don't understand muthu.
Aug 22 03:39:16 <muthu> jasta: that's one link
Aug 22 03:39:22 <muthu> am sure there were some official news somewhere
Aug 22 03:41:06 <jasta> hehe, right.
Aug 22 03:41:19 <jasta> i'm sure it was "official"
Aug 22 03:41:58 <meoblast001> why do i need a gmail account for the phone to work?
Aug 22 03:42:00 <meoblast001> thats gay
Aug 22 03:42:03 <meoblast001> i have one
Aug 22 03:42:04 <meoblast001> but still
Aug 22 03:42:18 <meoblast001> i dont use it because it only had POP3 when i stopped using it
Aug 22 03:46:00 <meoblast001> muthu: good news... sdl is possible on android
Aug 22 03:46:31 <meoblast001> we better go convert Dgen Sega Genesis Emulator to java =P
Aug 22 03:47:56 <muthu> gmail account is a bit overreaching..
Aug 22 03:48:13 <muthu> not sure why a customer would be forced to sign up for gmail
Aug 22 03:53:57 <meoblast001> does google have records no everything ive ever searched?
Aug 22 03:54:04 <meoblast001> on*
Aug 22 03:57:41 <muthu> they do
Aug 22 04:01:58 <meoblast001> muthu: fuck
Aug 22 04:02:34 <muthu> hehe
Aug 22 04:02:46 <muthu> they can turn you over to fbi any moment!
Aug 22 04:02:49 <meoblast001> your probably thinking im afraid of porn records or something
Aug 22 04:02:50 <meoblast001> but not
Aug 22 04:02:51 <meoblast001> no*
Aug 22 04:02:53 <meoblast001> thats not it
Aug 22 04:02:58 <meoblast001> its half the other stuff i look up
Aug 22 04:03:06 <meoblast001> like a picture of "muffinman"
Aug 22 04:03:07 <muthu> like what?
Aug 22 04:03:11 <muthu> lol
Aug 22 04:03:15 <meoblast001> or "life sucks"
Aug 22 04:03:17 <meoblast001> thats a good one
Aug 22 04:03:36 <meoblast001> or what i just googled a 3 minutes ago
Aug 22 04:03:57 <meoblast001> name googling..... if google knows ever name i've ever googled, they can find out who i am
Aug 22 04:03:59 <meoblast001> and where i live
Aug 22 04:04:14 <muthu> yes
Aug 22 04:04:20 <muthu> google knows about all of us
Aug 22 04:04:21 <meoblast001> and attack me with the Google Earth satelite's hidden laser cannon
Aug 22 04:04:27 <muthu> haha
Aug 22 04:04:29 <meoblast001> lol
Aug 22 04:04:43 <meoblast001> im giving them ideas
Aug 22 04:05:03 <muthu> they can use google cloud to flood your street ;)
Aug 22 04:05:16 <meoblast001> google cloud?
Aug 22 04:05:27 <meoblast001> whats that?
Aug 22 04:05:33 <muthu> its classified!
Aug 22 04:05:39 <muthu> in secret labs
Aug 22 04:05:46 <meoblast001> or they can use Google EMP Dropper
Aug 22 04:06:05 <meoblast001> oh wait
Aug 22 04:06:07 <meoblast001> thats classified
Aug 22 04:06:43 <muthu> requiring google account on android gets interesting
Aug 22 04:06:55 <meoblast001> ?
Aug 22 04:07:01 <muthu> they can track your every move
Aug 22 04:07:09 <muthu> and see where you are visiting real time
Aug 22 04:07:40 <jasta> there are plenty of companies that already have that ability, muthu.
Aug 22 04:08:05 <meoblast001> dude
Aug 22 04:08:09 <meoblast001> i just found a scary website
Aug 22 04:08:18 <meoblast001> http://www.namesdir.com/
Aug 22 04:08:29 <muthu> meoblast001: which school you go to?
Aug 22 04:08:35 <jasta> the United States at least has strong laws on privacy (when a criminal warrant is not involved)
Aug 22 04:08:50 <muthu> actually there's a site that you can put a name and search
Aug 22 04:08:54 <jasta> and so Google would not be permitted to abuse or even collect this data.
Aug 22 04:09:19 <muthu> how come youtube data was turned over?
Aug 22 04:09:25 <meoblast001> muthu: why should i tell you?
Aug 22 04:09:36 <jasta> because in criminal cases, your right to privacy flies out the window.
Aug 22 04:10:19 <muthu> i'm trying to remember that search site
Aug 22 04:10:30 <muthu> where you can search for anyone, and it gives all the details about you
Aug 22 04:11:04 <jasta> a lot of information about a person is public record, so that doesn't surprise me at all.
Aug 22 04:11:56 <muthu> http://www.zabasearch.com/query1_zaba.php?sname=MUTHU%20RAMADOSS&state=ALL&ref=&se=&doby=&city=&name_style=1&tm=&tmr=
Aug 22 04:12:01 <muthu> shit, that's a lot of info
Aug 22 04:12:29 <yakischloba_> you are a man of many addresses muthu.
Aug 22 04:12:34 <jasta> uhm, that just looks like address and phone number?
Aug 22 04:12:47 <jasta> address is public record.  phone number for most people is public record, as well.
Aug 22 04:12:59 <jasta> so that this surprises you surprises me more than anything.
Aug 22 04:13:00 <muthu> yeah, i was surprised when someone showed me that for the first time
Aug 22 04:13:12 <muthu> let me search for meoblast001
Aug 22 04:13:13 <meoblast001> lol
Aug 22 04:13:13 <jasta> by the way, if you search for my info, none of the information is valid.
Aug 22 04:13:16 <meoblast001> they couldnt find me
Aug 22 04:13:23 <meoblast001> they found me in my two neiboring towns
Aug 22 04:13:25 <meoblast001> but not here
Aug 22 04:13:29 <meoblast001> on a street that i dont know of
Aug 22 04:13:31 <jasta> and even then the only info here is an address and phone number.
Aug 22 04:13:36 <jasta> i'm baffled that surprises you.
Aug 22 04:14:16 <muthu> they automatically collect that
Aug 22 04:14:23 <muthu> from your credit card usage, i guess
Aug 22 04:14:33 <jasta> "they" don't, the government does through the US postal service and telecoms.
Aug 22 04:14:46 <muthu> zaba is not government, right?
Aug 22 04:14:58 <jasta> are you deaf?  i told you that someone's address is *PUBLIC* record.
Aug 22 04:15:13 <jasta> any citizen has legal access to those records.
Aug 22 04:15:17 <yakischloba_> Doesn't turn up shit on me
Aug 22 04:15:20 <jasta> which includes any company.
Aug 22 04:15:23 <yakischloba_> Good thing I move like once a year
Aug 22 04:15:26 <muthu> got it!
Aug 22 04:15:43 <jasta> likewise, unless you opt out, phone numbers are public record too.
Aug 22 04:15:48 <muthu> jasta is the new wikipedia
Aug 22 04:15:53 <muthu> jasta knows everything
Aug 22 04:15:56 <muthu> jasta is god!!!!!
Aug 22 04:15:58 <jasta> so, what you are seeing is a search engine which finds public information and returns it to you.  what a surprise.
Aug 22 04:16:25 <meoblast001> (12:15:58 AM) My Friend: howd u get all that info?
Aug 22 04:16:25 <meoblast001> (12:16:04 AM) Me (AIM): the internet is a scarey place
Aug 22 04:16:41 <jasta> it is also public record, by the way, who my relatives are.  it's just impossible to access this information automagically (or probably even digitally)
Aug 22 04:16:47 <jasta> but a curious person can easily find that out.
Aug 22 04:16:58 <muthu> yeah
Aug 22 04:17:09 <jasta> there's a lot of public info like that.  if you just ask, you can get it.
Aug 22 04:17:10 <muthu> for example, we make everything public on facebook
Aug 22 04:17:27 <jasta> do you know what i mean by "public record"?
Aug 22 04:17:37 <muthu> its a thin line
Aug 22 04:17:38 <meoblast001> who's we?
Aug 22 04:17:39 <yakischloba_> I google for my phone number, someone copied my craigslist ad onto their blog lol
Aug 22 04:17:50 <jasta> i don't mean information disclosed voluntaliry, i mean records which the government must keep and must give to anyone who asks.
Aug 22 04:18:29 <muthu> right to information
Aug 22 04:19:05 <muthu> i'm wating for gphone to hit india
Aug 22 04:19:11 <muthu> so i can grab one
Aug 22 04:19:28 <muthu> and start building some cool apps
Aug 22 04:19:29 <yakischloba_> aren't we all? ..
Aug 22 04:19:29 <yakischloba_> ;)
Aug 22 04:19:48 <muthu> yeah, but US has a lead
Aug 22 04:19:59 <muthu> not sure what the delay would be for the rest of the world
Aug 22 04:20:43 <meoblast001> mutho: you live in india?
Aug 22 04:20:44 <jasta> muthu: what may surprise you more, however, is that you could probably google for some irc conversation you've had once
Aug 22 04:20:58 <jasta> and you will probably find that conversation logged in full.
Aug 22 04:21:01 <muthu> where's the irc logs kept?
Aug 22 04:21:03 <meoblast001> muthu rather
Aug 22 04:21:10 <muthu> meoblast001: Chennai, India.
Aug 22 04:21:12 <jasta> see all those people in this channel that never talk?  at least one of them is a bot.
Aug 22 04:21:35 <muthu> why do they log all these?
Aug 22 04:21:43 <jasta> ionno.
Aug 22 04:21:46 <meoblast001> oh
Aug 22 04:21:59 <muthu> the scary part is.. it would be so out of context
Aug 22 04:22:01 <jasta> http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/android/android.20080311.txt -- see.
Aug 22 04:22:07 <muthu> and you would look like a fool
Aug 22 04:22:07 <meoblast001> muthu: tell me you dont work for dell tech support
Aug 22 04:22:21 <jasta> that one contains me complaining about the busted MediaPlayer :)
Aug 22 04:22:39 <muthu> haha, you should be in every android logs
Aug 22 04:22:44 <muthu> meoblast001: no
Aug 22 04:22:55 <muthu> i work for google tech support
Aug 22 04:23:03 <muthu> see..
Aug 22 04:23:09 <muthu> that can be taken out of contexxt
Aug 22 04:23:22 <meoblast001> muthu: ok.... tell someone from USA "calling india" they'll probably say "Dell tech support how may i help you" in an indian accent
Aug 22 04:23:25 <muthu> jasta: where's this channel log kept?
Aug 22 04:23:33 <jasta> there's no central authority, obviously
Aug 22 04:23:44 <jasta> i don't mean this is like a freenode feature or something.
Aug 22 04:23:49 <yakischloba_> Anyone can log
Aug 22 04:23:50 <meoblast001> dell tech support gave india a bad name lol
Aug 22 04:23:54 <jasta> i mean, every popular IRC channel everywhere is logged.  on all networks.
Aug 22 04:24:01 <jasta> i don't know why, but people just love posting public logs of irc channels
Aug 22 04:24:08 <muthu> meoblast001: if only the companies can come here and ensure quality
Aug 22 04:24:12 <jasta> there's a bot in every major channel i've ever used.
Aug 22 04:24:43 <muthu> yeah, it would be useful
Aug 22 04:24:54 <muthu> because a lot of nice discussions happen in irc
Aug 22 04:25:10 <jasta> sure, it is useful.  and it's helped me out a few times even.
Aug 22 04:25:24 <jasta> i was only pointing out that this is more surprising to me than my address and phone number being accessible.
Aug 22 04:25:58 <muthu> i'm more surprised, there's not an official channel for irc logs
Aug 22 04:26:14 <jasta> you don't know how IRC works, do you?
Aug 22 04:26:19 <muthu> example: i want to know what happend in #android, the last 24 hrs
Aug 22 04:27:09 <muthu> http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/android/
Aug 22 04:27:13 <muthu> this seems to be good
Aug 22 04:27:37 <jasta> it's neat to see that the logs start basically when the channel was mad e;P
Aug 22 04:27:47 <muthu> and its upto date
Aug 22 04:27:57 <muthu> wow, let me check what happened yesterday
Aug 22 04:29:14 <muthu> ha!
Aug 22 04:29:21 <muthu> jasta talking about his gf again :)
Aug 22 04:40:15 <f00f-> hey mudu
Aug 22 04:41:38 <yakischloba_> thats quite a cute picture of you throwing the shocker on your facebook jasta ;)
Aug 22 04:41:58 <muthu> f00f-: yoo
Aug 22 04:42:30 <f00f-> what's going on
Aug 22 04:42:41 <muthu> planning, planning, planning
Aug 22 04:42:41 <f00f-> i'm so glad everything is over
Aug 22 04:42:43 <f00f-> a bit of relief
Aug 22 04:42:46 <f00f-> oh?
Aug 22 04:42:48 <f00f-> big plans eh
Aug 22 04:42:58 <jasta> yakischloba_: *agreed* :)
Aug 22 04:43:03 <yakischloba_> muthu is a constant schemer
Aug 22 04:43:16 <muthu> yeah, putting something together
Aug 22 04:43:22 <muthu> and get started by sep
Aug 22 04:43:28 <yakischloba_> whats the big plan huh
Aug 22 04:43:33 <yakischloba_> secret?
Aug 22 04:43:35 <f00f-> for CC or something else
Aug 22 04:43:43 <muthu> something else
Aug 22 04:43:56 <f00f-> mg
Aug 22 04:43:56 <f00f-> ?
Aug 22 04:44:01 <f00f-> :P
Aug 22 04:44:09 <muthu> yeah, mobeegal
Aug 22 04:44:20 <f00f-> for shore
Aug 22 04:44:25 <muthu> but focus on a specific audience
Aug 22 04:44:39 <muthu> may be dating, shopping?
Aug 22 04:45:04 <jasta> yakischloba_: hehe, i just looked through those pictures.  jeez, i look so drunk in most of those pictures ;0
Aug 22 04:45:12 <jasta> eyes are all glossy and everything
Aug 22 04:45:15 <muthu> where's the pic?
Aug 22 04:45:15 <yakischloba_> jasta: yes you do :)
Aug 22 04:45:28 <jasta> oh me and my friends...we have fun :)
Aug 22 04:45:40 <meoblast001> http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9360/socialskillszippi9.png
Aug 22 04:45:41 <jasta> we're goin to Seattle Center tomorrow night for that free KEXP show (Pela will be there)
Aug 22 04:45:42 <meoblast001> i wish
Aug 22 04:45:50 <jasta> probalby gonna be get drunk during and after :P
Aug 22 04:45:54 <yakischloba_> ahh someone told me about that
Aug 22 04:46:17 <jasta> you're more than welcome to tag along if you want.  but don't be weird.
Aug 22 04:46:26 <muthu> haha
Aug 22 04:46:48 <yakischloba_> I wish I had an opportunity to take time off during job transition..I haven't taken a vacation in 4 years and I have to spend most of the fuckin weekend wrapping up at the old job :/
Aug 22 04:47:00 <f00f-> tell em to shove it
Aug 22 04:47:02 <yakischloba_> jasta: actually I was going to bring my friend meoblast001 if you don't mind
Aug 22 04:47:17 <jasta> sure, but he'll have to stand outside the 21+ gate :)
Aug 22 04:47:19 <jasta> hehe
Aug 22 04:47:23 <meoblast001> yakischloba hates me
Aug 22 04:47:24 <yakischloba_> hah
Aug 22 04:47:38 <jasta> and since we'll be 30 or 40 feet from the gate, he'll rpboably be pretty hard to hear.
Aug 22 04:48:00 <yakischloba_> I duno, he may have a meoblaster than shoots annoying audio in your ear at hundreds of yards
Aug 22 04:48:21 <meoblast001> yakischloba_: fuck off
Aug 22 04:48:32 <jasta> yeah, can't take that risk.  he can't come.
Aug 22 04:48:39 <meoblast001> piece of shit
Aug 22 04:48:45 <yakischloba_> ok I'll leave him in the dog house.
Aug 22 04:48:59 <muthu> wonder how many of top 50 actually made deals by now..
Aug 22 04:49:01 <meoblast001> you've officially pissed me the fuck off
Aug 22 04:49:04 <meoblast001> suck my dick
Aug 22 04:49:05 <yakischloba_> what is that supposed to mean 'don't be weird' lol
Aug 22 04:49:13 <jasta> you know what it means :)
Aug 22 04:49:23 <muthu> yakischloba_: are you weird?
Aug 22 04:49:25 <yakischloba_> hah no I don't
Aug 22 04:49:33 <yakischloba_> muthu: I sure hope not. General consensus so far is 'no'
Aug 22 04:49:38 <muthu> lol
Aug 22 04:49:44 <muthu> jasta seems to think otherwise
Aug 22 04:49:48 <muthu> jasta is weird!
Aug 22 04:49:48 <yakischloba_> jasta is tipping the odds though
Aug 22 04:49:49 <yakischloba_> yeah
Aug 22 04:49:59 <yakischloba_> maybe jasta is a weirdo and its me that should be keeping my distance
Aug 22 04:50:04 <muthu> yes
Aug 22 04:50:23 <yakischloba_> you might think so by how hung up he gets on bugs in android ;)
Aug 22 04:50:38 <muthu> i've met him in IO ;)
Aug 22 04:50:43 <jasta> i met you too.
Aug 22 04:50:57 <jasta> and i think you're just as weird as i imagined you would be :)
Aug 22 04:51:02 <muthu> haha
Aug 22 04:51:05 <meoblast001> muthu: is yakischloba_ by any chance a google employee?
Aug 22 04:51:12 <muthu> meoblast001: no
Aug 22 04:51:17 <meoblast001> =(
Aug 22 04:51:20 <yakischloba_> I should worry about my friends having to hear about apache httpclient and mediaplayer all night at the bar
Aug 22 04:51:30 <meoblast001> muthu: i guess i really cant do anything to him then
Aug 22 04:51:37 <jasta> yakischloba_: have you ever met someone in person after knowing them online?
Aug 22 04:51:37 <meoblast001> hes just another guy
Aug 22 04:51:46 <jasta> it's a real hit or miss game ;)
Aug 22 04:51:51 <yakischloba_> jasta: yeah, a bunch of times. Most of them turned out weird ;)
Aug 22 04:51:57 <jasta> yakischloba_: hehe, see :)
Aug 22 04:52:00 <meoblast001> muthu: he's angered me much
Aug 22 04:52:14 <muthu> meoblast001: take it easy
Aug 22 04:52:24 <meoblast001> i'll try
Aug 22 04:52:25 <jasta> most recently, i met pawalls (who i've known online for *years*; idles in #anrdoid now) at I/O...
Aug 22 04:52:37 <meoblast001> i got angry at jasta first
Aug 22 04:52:46 <yakischloba_> I have a hilarious idea of muthu in my head. I'm sure he'd fit it perfectly.
Aug 22 04:52:54 <meoblast001> then yakischloba and michaelnovakjr
Aug 22 04:53:03 <yakischloba_> bad experience huh
Aug 22 04:53:03 <jasta> that night was _awesome_ though.  we wound up at a Sushi Bar in some crazy indisturial district in SF doing round after round of Sake Bombs.
Aug 22 04:53:08 <jasta> and the waitress was all into us
Aug 22 04:53:10 <muthu> yakischloba_: i'm a nice gentlemen
Aug 22 04:53:10 <yakischloba_> lol
Aug 22 04:53:15 <yakischloba_> muthu: I know you are ;)
Aug 22 04:53:22 <jasta> and we were so drunk we couldn't hardly stand to leave after we realized we were just shy of getting kicked out
Aug 22 04:53:36 <yakischloba_> heh
Aug 22 04:53:50 <jasta> we were doing the whole 9 yards, slamming down on the table to drop the shots
Aug 22 04:54:01 <jasta> we were so drunk we didn't realize what we were ordering
Aug 22 04:54:21 <jasta> popped in for 1 round of sake bombs but we ordered 5 large sakes and like 3 litres of sapporo
Aug 22 04:54:32 <yakischloba_> What could be better than a night on the town with a bunch of Android geeks, causing a ruckus
Aug 22 04:54:34 <jasta> so we basically shotgunned 4 rounds of sake bombs and bounced :)
Aug 22 04:54:35 <yakischloba_> hah
Aug 22 04:55:06 <muthu> there's a whole lot of fun happening all over SF that day!
Aug 22 04:55:15 <jasta> but all this was after basically getting drunk at the worst bar in all of SF.  worst in a great way :)
Aug 22 04:55:30 <jasta> total shithole.  we got yelled at for asking the cook to take onions off our food.
Aug 22 04:55:56 <jasta> anyway, YMMV.  that was not my typical experience meeting some online nerd ;P
Aug 22 04:56:55 <yakischloba_> Well you're in for a treat. I come with strippers, kilos of cocaine and a limousine.
Aug 22 04:57:00 <jasta> hahaha
Aug 22 04:57:09 <jasta> that literally made me lol
Aug 22 04:57:18 <muthu> yakischloba_: you are a celebrity then
Aug 22 04:57:24 <yakischloba_> I may even have a red carpet laying around that I could roll out for you if you fancied it.
Aug 22 04:57:37 <yakischloba_> muthu: yes I am, in my own little way.
Aug 22 04:58:19 <yakischloba_> muthu: What is the goal of a businessman like yourself? Is there an end to the ambition or is it really just a way of life?
Aug 22 05:00:01 <muthu> yakischloba_: there's no end
Aug 22 05:00:13 <yakischloba_> I didn't think so. I know your type ;)
Aug 22 05:00:28 <muthu> its a way of life, yes
Aug 22 05:00:42 <muthu> you start one, then another, then another...
Aug 22 05:01:10 <yakischloba_> mmhmm
Aug 22 05:01:10 <muthu> yakischloba_: we'll meet next time
Aug 22 05:01:45 <muthu> may be set up a party with all #android folks
Aug 22 05:02:01 <f00f-> fly us out muthu
Aug 22 05:02:20 <muthu> i will, if only the damn investor picks up his phone ;)
Aug 22 05:02:20 <jasta> let's make anyone in the top 10 throw a huge party.
Aug 22 05:02:28 <yakischloba_> I live by a similar routine, just not to do with business. I think it boils down to that I'm never quite happy with what I have and I'm always looking for the next best thing. Sad from some perspectives, but it keeps me on my toes ;)
Aug 22 05:02:36 <yakischloba_> yeah honestly
Aug 22 05:02:38 <yakischloba_> they fuckin owe it
Aug 22 05:02:54 <muthu> if we are in top 10
Aug 22 05:02:57 <muthu> sure
Aug 22 05:03:13 <yakischloba_> muthu shall fly us all to India for a grand banquet with elephants and trapeze artists performing
Aug 22 05:03:25 <muthu> all are invited to chennai
Aug 22 05:03:32 <yakischloba_> nice.
Aug 22 05:03:44 <muthu> but be prepared to visit india
Aug 22 05:03:49 <muthu> its a different placce
Aug 22 05:04:20 <muthu> but you'll leave better
Aug 22 05:04:21 <jasta> what he means is you spend the first week pooping and puking.
Aug 22 05:04:27 <yakischloba_> yeah.
Aug 22 05:04:36 <yakischloba_> muthu: was this year IO your first time in the US?
Aug 22 05:04:36 <jasta> and what he means by better is lighter, from having pooped and puked so much.
Aug 22 05:04:58 <muthu> hehe
Aug 22 05:05:07 <yakischloba_> jasta: us americans could stand to lose a little ;)
Aug 22 05:05:22 <muthu> yakischloba_: no, i'm used to US in every way
Aug 22 05:05:29 <muthu> been there since 96
Aug 22 05:05:47 <yakischloba_> ahh ok
Aug 22 05:09:01 <muthu> hope Android is a big hit
Aug 22 05:09:12 <jasta> don't we all
Aug 22 05:10:26 <muthu> it will for sure
Aug 22 05:10:31 <yakischloba_> I had to walk my mom through getting a new phone today so I was certain my contract on our family plan wasn't extended. I hate my WinMo phone so much I'll get the first Android device even if it sucks.
Aug 22 05:10:50 <jasta> hehe yeah, except, i have to leave AT&T
Aug 22 05:10:52 <jasta> and that will be hard to do :(
Aug 22 05:11:11 <yakischloba_> Leaving Verizon is no big deal to me
Aug 22 05:11:20 <yakischloba_> going to T-Mobile might be though :/
Aug 22 05:11:21 <jasta> not only is AT&T service good, i have a lifetime account discount of 15%.
Aug 22 05:11:27 <muthu> iphone launching in india with 2 carriers
Aug 22 05:11:32 <muthu> of course with unlocked pricing
Aug 22 05:11:49 <jasta> i would happily pay unlocked price, but i doubt everything will work right on AT&T
Aug 22 05:12:02 <jasta> hey btw, does apple have a patent on visual voicemail or something?  is that a possibility for Android on T-Mobile legally?
Aug 22 05:12:51 <yakischloba_> I sure hope it is
Aug 22 05:13:57 <yakischloba_> http://www.betanews.com/article/Apple_ATT_settle_visual_voicemail_patent_claims/1213728491
Aug 22 05:14:42 <jasta> *gay*.
Aug 22 05:14:47 <yakischloba_> yup.
Aug 22 05:14:51 <jasta> i figured as much
Aug 22 05:14:55 <jasta> software patents are so f'n bogus
Aug 22 05:15:03 <yakischloba_> Yeah. Patents are getting out of hand.
Aug 22 05:15:24 <jasta> i think it should only be possible to patent an algorithm, not an idea.  unless it can be shown that someone just lifted your design then i dont think you should have a case.
Aug 22 05:15:45 <jasta> everything in software patents seems to cover novel gimmicks
Aug 22 05:15:47 <jasta> thats it
Aug 22 05:15:53 <yakischloba_> whatever happened to patent troll tracker
Aug 22 05:16:28 <yakischloba_> yeah I duno..some of this stuff is like, any average guy would have come up with it sooner or later. Its just the natural evolution of technology
Aug 22 05:16:35 <yakischloba_> and its not an idea that took any work!
Aug 22 05:17:08 <yakischloba_> just playing with your phone one day and "oh man, it sure would be nice if I could pick the voicemails I wanted to listen to!"
Aug 22 05:17:11 <jasta> yeah, again, i think the obvious reformation path is to make an end goal unpatentable; only the algorithm that gets you there.
Aug 22 05:17:32 <jasta> the specific algorithm.  substantial deviations demonstrating originality in design should be safe, as well.
Aug 22 05:17:45 <yakischloba_> "As an inventor, it's fulfilling, and it's important as a creative person to get that recognition — payment is also good, there's nothing wrong with that," he said in an interview.
Aug 22 05:17:47 <yakischloba_> what a tool
Aug 22 05:17:52 <jasta> because if two people happen to simultaneously develop the same damn thing, the point of patent enforcement is lost.
Aug 22 05:26:01 <jasta> hey, did you guys notice Android's time is finally correct in 0.9r1?
Aug 22 05:27:49 <romainguy> re
Aug 22 05:27:57 <jasta> hello romain
Aug 22 05:28:09 <yakischloba_> that'll be nice. That kept screwing me up a lot before. My app keeps track of per-day data, and the clock would always hit 12:00am during the time I was working on it
Aug 22 05:28:22 <yakischloba_> get me all confused
Aug 22 05:28:31 <jasta> it tripped me up just trying to read my apps logging/debugging :)
Aug 22 05:28:41 <jasta> i'd have to keep calculating the real time of messages :)
Aug 22 05:38:00 <jasta> yakischloba_: hey dude your bday is right near mine.  except you're mad younger than me :)
Aug 22 05:38:12 <jasta> you just turned 21?
Aug 22 05:38:36 <yakischloba_> jasta: yeah. Not like that brought anything new into my life though ;)
Aug 22 05:41:07 <jasta> back to coding
Aug 22 05:41:13 <jasta> you really are invited tomorrow if you want to swing by
Aug 22 05:41:18 <yakischloba_> I didn't really make a big event of it. It was like "Ok, lets go to these bars...for the 10th time."
Aug 22 05:41:47 <yakischloba_> Ehh its possible. I really should be going to bed early and trying to bang this stuff out on Saturday but maybe I'll cruise by for a little while.
Aug 22 05:41:54 <yakischloba_> Thanks for the offer
Aug 22 05:42:11 <jasta> there will be loads of drinking, just so you know what you're getting yourself into :P
Aug 22 05:42:42 <yakischloba_> That seems to be an inevitable consequence of leaving my house on the weekend.
Aug 22 05:48:09 * jasta starts redesigning five-music's UI
Aug 22 05:48:44 <jasta> anyone have any good ideas? :)
Aug 22 06:00:03 <muthu> lyrics with songs would be a good idea
Aug 22 06:02:11 <jasta> lol
Aug 22 06:02:31 <jasta> thanks for the tip muthu, i'll take that under advisement.
Aug 22 06:02:47 <muthu> lol
Aug 22 06:05:36 <jasta> hehe, why does the notification bar say "Android"?
Aug 22 06:08:25 <romainguy> jasta: it says Android instead of the name of the carrier
Aug 22 06:08:32 <jasta> ahh :)
Aug 22 06:13:26 <jasta> romainguy: i dont understand your response to my bug about the tab flicker?
Aug 22 06:18:31 <romainguy> it's just that when you see this the tab is still in pressed state
Aug 22 06:18:53 <romainguy> so if we were not drawing the "thin bar" orange, you'd see the top tab orange and the bar white
Aug 22 06:18:56 <romainguy> and that'd be worse
Aug 22 06:19:32 <jasta> yeah but it's such a sudden flash that it takes a few times to even figure out what drew your eye
Aug 22 06:20:08 <romainguy> I tried and I disagree
Aug 22 06:20:13 <romainguy> it's the same as pressing a button
Aug 22 06:20:22 <romainguy> (I haven't tried on the emulator, only on real devices)
Aug 22 06:20:22 <jasta> it is?
Aug 22 06:20:39 <jasta> no, the "flash" isn't as the user pushes down
Aug 22 06:20:50 <jasta> it's after they release, the bar goes from white to orange to white very fast.
Aug 22 06:21:01 <jasta> this doesn't happen with buttons.  the downward press makes it orange, the release makes it white again.
Aug 22 06:21:02 <romainguy> I can't make that happen
Aug 22 06:21:14 <romainguy> if I press a tab
Aug 22 06:21:16 <romainguy> then let go
Aug 22 06:21:19 <romainguy> I see the bar orange
Aug 22 06:21:21 <romainguy> then go to white
Aug 22 06:21:36 <jasta> it's *very* fast.  your emulator probably runs so fast it never got an opportunity to draw in that state
Aug 22 06:21:45 <romainguy> I run it on the device
Aug 22 06:21:46 <jasta> it's a flicker, feels very much like a bug.
Aug 22 06:21:58 <romainguy> the bar is white
Aug 22 06:22:00 <romainguy> I press a tab
Aug 22 06:22:02 <romainguy> the bar is still white
Aug 22 06:22:07 <romainguy> I let go of the tab
Aug 22 06:22:11 <romainguy> I see the tab orange and the bar orange
Aug 22 06:22:14 <romainguy> then everything goes back to white
Aug 22 06:22:30 <romainguy> that's totally normal
Aug 22 06:22:35 <jasta> i see that as well but only for a very short window after release.
Aug 22 06:22:41 <romainguy> yes
Aug 22 06:22:46 <jasta> press the tab, it becomes orange, release the tab, it becomes white.
Aug 22 06:23:01 <jasta> but in between those last two steps, the thin bar becomes orange
Aug 22 06:23:06 <romainguy> yes
Aug 22 06:23:11 <romainguy> when the tab is still orange
Aug 22 06:23:17 <romainguy> it's normal
Aug 22 06:23:21 <jasta> yes but not the whole time it's orange
Aug 22 06:23:26 <jasta> only after you release.
Aug 22 06:23:29 <romainguy> yes
Aug 22 06:23:33 <romainguy> only when it becomes the selected tab
Aug 22 06:23:42 <anno^da> good morning guys
Aug 22 06:23:53 <jasta> does it not flash so quickly on a device?
Aug 22 06:24:13 <jasta> because it's like half the time i can't even tell what happened.  my eye is just suddenly drawn to a part of the UI that doesn't have any function
Aug 22 06:38:24 <anno^da> inZane-__: you there ?
Aug 22 06:42:26 <jasta> hmm
Aug 22 06:42:34 <jasta> i just heard that oct 8 is the rumored date at T-Mobile...
Aug 22 06:42:40 <jasta> not 13th
Aug 22 06:43:32 <anno^da> :-)
Aug 22 07:53:17 <jasta> man, i really like the new Adapter filtering stuffs ;)
Aug 22 07:53:23 <jasta> the UI is very elegant, and it's nice and responsive
Aug 22 07:58:09 <Zohan> its as slow as it was on my slow laptop ;)
Aug 22 08:35:18 <anno^da> is google maps (in the web) able to show me the geo position for a certain location?
Aug 22 08:35:46 <anno^da> (dont want to use it in android just in general :) )
Aug 22 08:36:33 <muthu> anno^da: google maps links will give you the lat/long
Aug 22 08:37:54 <anno^da> really ?
Aug 22 08:38:03 <anno^da> I'm getting: http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&hl=de&geocode=&q=M%C3%9Cnchen&ie=UTF8&z=11&iwloc=addr for munich
Aug 22 08:38:10 <tric> i wonder why there isnt a simple display somewhere, why you have to use create link...
Aug 22 08:39:55 <anno^da> I'm not getting it or what link is meant to offer me the geo location :)
Aug 22 08:40:22 <muthu> http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&hl=de&geocode=&q=M%C3%9Cnchen&ie=UTF8&ll=48.167917,11.580276&spn=0.174024,0.348129&z=11&iwloc=addr
Aug 22 08:40:56 <muthu> you get that when you click 'link'
Aug 22 08:40:57 <tric> http://maps.google.de/maps?f=d&saddr=48.152052,11.610639&daddr=&hl=en&geocode=&mra=mi&mrsp=0&sz=15&sll=48.151256,11.618299&sspn=0.026627,0.054417&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=15 this is munich, used a search to münchen, got the same "broken" link, but right click somewhere and get directions from here got me a working link
Aug 22 08:42:13 <red_alert> doesn't the google maps API give you the long/lat?
Aug 22 08:43:36 <anno^da> Yeah sure just wondered if there is a possibility for the normal user using google maps in the web
Aug 22 08:44:12 <anno^da> (in a convenient way)
Aug 22 08:44:18 <muthu> you need to use th geo uri
Aug 22 08:44:28 <muthu> but don't think the geo scheme is fully supported yet
Aug 22 08:55:56 <jasta> ok, bed time :)
Aug 22 08:56:03 <jasta> stayed up only 50 minutes later than i planned :)
Aug 22 08:58:44 <anno^da> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQlzX7EyIwU
Aug 22 08:58:49 <anno^da> have you seen that :)
Aug 22 09:04:50 <red_alert> anno^da: I'm pretty sure that's a fake unboxing ... ;)
Aug 22 09:06:11 <anno^da> well it is ;)
Aug 22 09:06:49 <red_alert> aha!
Aug 22 09:54:23 <inZane-__> anno^da: i'm here now :-)
Aug 22 09:56:39 <Acsia> gm
Aug 22 09:56:51 <Acsia> anybody knowledgable with instrumentation?
Aug 22 09:58:14 <muthu> what you want to do?
Aug 22 09:59:00 <Acsia> well I am not really sure I understand the following sample
Aug 22 09:59:06 <Acsia> http://code.google.com/android/samples/ApiDemos/tests/src/com/android/samples/AllTests.html
Aug 22 09:59:23 <Acsia> I keep getting the component information not found when I try to run the instrumentation
Aug 22 09:59:45 <Acsia> and why do we have com.android.samples.tests, this is not a package of any sort
Aug 22 10:00:48 <Acsia> when I run am instrument, does it look up the instrumentation in the androidManifest?
Aug 22 10:01:07 <muthu> you have to declare
Aug 22 10:01:13 <muthu> if you want to run them
Aug 22 10:02:36 <muthu> <instrumentation       android:name="android.test.InstrumentationTestRunner"       android:targetPackage="com.intellibitz.xxx"       android:label="Tests for xx" />
Aug 22 10:03:23 <Acsia> let me give it a shot
Aug 22 10:03:48 <Acsia> android:name does that declare the TestRunner each time, I thought it would declare the actual test class
Aug 22 10:04:03 <muthu> no you specify the package
Aug 22 10:04:13 <muthu> the test runner will run all tests in the package
Aug 22 10:05:56 <Acsia> I am bit further but now I get
Aug 22 10:05:57 <Acsia> java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: android.test.InstrumentationTestRunner
Aug 22 10:08:26 <muthu> how you run it?
Aug 22 10:08:43 <Acsia> adb shell am instrument -e class com.novoda.runbuddy.AllTests -w com.novoda.runbuddy/android.test.InstrumentationTestRunner
Aug 22 10:09:00 <Acsia> 	<instrumentation android:name="android.test.InstrumentationTestRunner"
Aug 22 10:09:00 <Acsia> 		android:targetPackage="com.novoda.runbuddy" android:label="RB Acceptance Tests2" />
Aug 22 10:09:54 <muthu> try this:
Aug 22 10:10:23 <muthu> adb shell am instrument -w com.intellibitz.xxx/android.test.InstrumentationTestRunner
Aug 22 10:12:13 <Acsia> hum still the same
Aug 22 10:12:30 <muthu> do you have the permissions defined
Aug 22 10:12:35 <Acsia> is there any permission to set?
Aug 22 10:12:49 <Acsia> well let me see has it changed since 15?
Aug 22 10:13:24 <Acsia> from what I understand there is no need to est the permission anymore
Aug 22 10:14:11 <muthu> right
Aug 22 10:14:18 <muthu> try it from the emulator
Aug 22 10:16:40 <Acsia> no luck, a bit strange to get a class not found on android.test
Aug 22 10:16:50 <Acsia> 	08-22 10:15:42.702: INFO/instrumentation(456): INSTRUMENTATION_RESULT: longMsg=java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to instantiate instrumentation ComponentInfo{com.novoda.runbuddy/android.test.InstrumentationTestRunner}: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: android.test.InstrumentationTestRunner in loader dalvik.system.PathClassLoader@43379338
Aug 22 10:16:50 <Acsia> 	
Aug 22 10:17:09 <muthu> ha!
Aug 22 10:17:15 <muthu> must be a uses-library issue
Aug 22 10:17:23 <Acsia> hum
Aug 22 10:17:28 <Acsia> let me check
Aug 22 10:17:44 <Acsia> have you managed btw instrumenting with the new sdk?
Aug 22 10:17:50 <muthu> no
Aug 22 10:17:56 <Acsia> :)
Aug 22 10:17:59 <muthu> didn't try with 0.9
Aug 22 10:18:00 <muthu> lol
Aug 22 10:21:17 <anno^da> the index of the search funcionality on http://code.google.com/android/ needs updating :)
Aug 22 10:28:05 <muthu> does it search classes?
Aug 22 10:28:27 <anno^da> Well search for BroadcastReceiver
Aug 22 10:28:33 <anno^da> you wont find anything
Aug 22 10:28:47 <muthu> i never understood that search ;)
Aug 22 10:28:47 <anno^da> search for IntentReceiver you will get an error
Aug 22 10:30:11 <muthu> error?
Aug 22 10:30:59 <anno^da> Well you can search but it gives you the old classes that arent available any more
Aug 22 10:31:06 <anno^da> http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/content/IntentReceiver.html
Aug 22 10:31:10 <anno^da> just one example
Aug 22 10:31:23 <anno^da> so the index has to be updated
Aug 22 10:32:28 <muthu> yup
Aug 22 10:37:29 <Dougie187> It's Tropical Storm day.
Aug 22 10:51:09 <Acsia> anybody in london in october?
Aug 22 10:51:09 <Acsia> now this is a cool orchestral concert
Aug 22 10:51:09 <Acsia> http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/music/productions/video-games-live-2008-42528
Aug 22 10:53:04 <Dougie187> it takes forever to load...
Aug 22 10:53:05 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 22 10:53:39 <Acsia> it does indeed... I was ok 2 minutes ago...
Aug 22 10:53:57 <Dougie187> maybe theres alot of traffic now
Aug 22 10:54:13 <Acsia> lol not used to 75 simultaneous clicks
Aug 22 10:54:16 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 22 10:54:22 <Dougie187> What kinda of video game music is it?
Aug 22 10:54:22 <Acsia> I doubled their traffic
Aug 22 10:54:37 <Acsia> well there is a big picture of zelda in the background
Aug 22 10:54:42 <Acsia> and it explains
Aug 22 10:54:49 <Acsia> spectacular new interactive Guitar Hero duel
Aug 22 10:54:50 <Dougie187> yeah it just loaded
Aug 22 10:54:56 <Acsia> same here
Aug 22 10:55:09 <Acsia> Southbank is one of the main concert halls
Aug 22 10:55:11 <Acsia> ha
Aug 22 10:55:11 <Dougie187> "from Pong and Mario, to Halo and Final Fantasy"
Aug 22 10:55:23 <Dougie187> That would be cool.
Aug 22 10:55:26 <Acsia> man that s a good show
Aug 22 10:55:29 <Dougie187> I love me some live final fantasy music.
Aug 22 10:55:46 <Acsia> maybe they ll play all your base are belong to us
Aug 22 10:55:49 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 22 10:56:30 <Dougie187> I hope they do it black mages style.
Aug 22 10:56:57 <Acsia> I ll buy my ticket and we ll c
Aug 22 10:57:15 <Dougie187> lemme know how it is.
Aug 22 10:57:21 <Dougie187> i won't be in london in october.
Aug 22 10:57:22 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 22 10:57:33 <Acsia> sure will do
Aug 22 10:57:37 <Dougie187> though i've never been in london so its not a surprise.
Aug 22 10:57:51 <Dougie187> only 25 Pounds
Aug 22 11:30:27 <ttuttle> Good mjorning #cslounge!
Aug 22 11:30:35 <ttuttle> Er wait, this is #android.
Aug 22 11:30:38 <ttuttle> Good morning #android.
Aug 22 11:30:43 <ttuttle> (Foolish irssi rearranged my tabs.)
Aug 22 11:31:06 <ttuttle> There.
Aug 22 11:31:08 <anno^da> I got a question regarding the state persisting. If I have an application that has several activities and the user gets from one to the next activity. And then he clicks the home button. (somewhere in the middle of all the activities, perhaps hes setting up his music) And now he gets back to my application. Do I have to save the last opened activity and open it up again in the onCreate of my first activity or how is that handeld?
Aug 22 11:31:42 <anno^da> I know how to persist the state of one certain activity but thats sth I dont find in the docs.
Aug 22 11:32:05 <ttuttle> anno^da: There's a flag you can set, I believe, that controls whether your application will return to the initial screen or to the last-used screen.
Aug 22 11:32:09 <ttuttle> anno^da: Lemme take a look.
Aug 22 11:32:38 <muthu> activity state is auto persisted
Aug 22 11:34:59 <anno^da> At the moment when I press the home button and start my app up again I'm getting to my initial screen.
Aug 22 11:35:29 <ttuttle> anno^da: Look at alwaysRetainTaskState.
Aug 22 11:36:01 <ttuttle> anno^da: If you set it on an activity, the system will "always return to your task in its last state, regardless of how they get there".
Aug 22 11:37:21 <ttuttle> anno^da: Oh, also look at clearTaskOnLaunch.
Aug 22 11:37:47 <ttuttle> anno^da: ...and finishOnTaskLaunch, maybe.
Aug 22 11:48:25 <anno^da> ttuttle
Aug 22 11:48:29 <anno^da> thank you
Aug 22 11:48:32 <anno^da> very much
Aug 22 11:48:37 <anno^da> I will look at it now.
Aug 22 11:51:53 <ttuttle> anno^da: Cool.
Aug 22 12:02:27 <anno^da> ttuttle: do I have to set that in the layout file ?
Aug 22 12:03:35 <anno^da> in the manifest. Ok :)
Aug 22 12:05:31 <Zohan> hey shorty
Aug 22 12:05:35 <Zohan> its my birthday
Aug 22 12:05:45 <Zohan> am i goin party like its my birthday?
Aug 22 12:07:16 <anno^da> Well ttuttle I've added it to the manifest file but after restarting my app from the home screen I am back at the initialising screen hmm
Aug 22 12:09:49 <anno^da> And why do I need to setup the onSaveInstanceSate() when I set that above mentioned flag
Aug 22 12:22:07 <ttuttle> anno^da: I don't think Android ever *promises* to return to the last-used activity in your application.
Aug 22 12:22:21 <ttuttle> anno^da: Unless you set alwaysRetainTaskState, I think.
Aug 22 12:23:06 <anno^da> Thats the point
Aug 22 12:23:14 <ttuttle> Okay, so you turned it on?
Aug 22 12:23:26 <ttuttle> On all the activities?
Aug 22 12:23:32 <anno^da> If I set that flag why should I implement onSaveInstanceState()
Aug 22 12:23:38 <ttuttle> (Or at least all the ones you want it to go back to?)
Aug 22 12:24:14 <ttuttle> I think the default implementation of onSaveInstanceState will save your GUI state for you.  If you need to save more, implement it, and call super.onSaveInstanceState at the top.
Aug 22 12:24:44 <anno^da> Yeah I added it to one activity from that activity I pressed the Home button. After starting my application again I was at the initial screen again.
Aug 22 12:25:08 <anno^da> Or do I have to set that flag to all activities that belong to one task.
Aug 22 12:25:26 <anno^da> So the whole way from my initial screen to the activity I've set the flag.
Aug 22 12:25:52 <ttuttle> I think it needs to be on any activity that you want the system to return to.
Aug 22 12:26:02 <ttuttle> I don't *think* it needs to be in the whole chain, but I'm not sure.
Aug 22 12:26:55 <anno^da> hmm thats wired. I'm adding it now to every activity in the manifest.
Aug 22 12:27:23 <ttuttle> Okay.
Aug 22 12:27:35 <ttuttle> You might want to ask romainguy or someone who knows the activity framework better.
Aug 22 12:27:49 <anno^da> One question to the term "GUI state". Does that include for example the content of a AutoCompleteTextView
Aug 22 12:27:55 <ttuttle> I think so?
Aug 22 12:28:21 <anno^da> Yeah I will ask romainguy later on. If I'm not getting behind the whole thing.
Aug 22 12:28:44 <anno^da> From the docs I don't get it anymore. :)
Aug 22 12:29:54 <anno^da> Because if the whole UI state including the contents of the textfields, states of the checkboxes etc. would be save I dont get the sense of the onSaveInstanceState()  method
Aug 22 12:30:06 <anno^da> saved
Aug 22 12:30:37 <ttuttle> anno^da: It's if you need to save other data, like internal state of the activity (perhaps a record ID?)
Aug 22 12:30:51 <anno^da> ah well ok.
Aug 22 12:31:03 <anno^da> ahhh ok I got it.
Aug 22 12:31:39 <anno^da> now I have to get the flag working :-)
Aug 22 12:37:40 <anno^da> From my point of view you have to define the task (whatever it means in this context) in some way.
Aug 22 12:49:40 <anno^da> But I dont understand how to set activities to one task
Aug 22 13:02:59 <BBHoss_> anyone have a good getting started blog article or tutorial for android?  I've seen the Hello Android on Google's site, but I'm looking for a little more.  Even better, does anyone have a book in the works?
Aug 22 13:04:01 <anno^da> BBHoss_: http://www.anddev.org/index.php
Aug 22 13:04:10 <BBHoss_> anno^da: thanks
Aug 22 13:04:32 <anno^da> But do note that a lot of examples have to be updated to the latest SDK update.
Aug 22 13:05:24 <BBHoss_> how much has changed?
Aug 22 13:06:15 <anno^da> hmm well to start with Android you can use the examples. A lot of them should work.
Aug 22 13:06:54 <BBHoss_> ok, is there any way to make the emulator recognize a virtual sd card to test different features?
Aug 22 13:07:33 <BBHoss_> also, can the maps parse kml files and plot points?
Aug 22 13:08:06 <anno^da> You can make the emulator recoginze a virtual sd card
Aug 22 13:08:20 <anno^da> http://code.google.com/android/reference/emulator.html#sdcard
Aug 22 13:09:38 <BBHoss_> finally, is all the code required to be in java, or is there any way i can use something familiar to me like Ruby?
Aug 22 13:11:32 <red_alert> you could write a ruby-interpreter in java...but I wouldn't suggest that ;)
Aug 22 13:11:42 <gambler> isnt there JRuby?
Aug 22 13:12:18 <gambler> i dont see the point though...android is 90% dealing with OPL
Aug 22 13:12:46 <BBHoss_> OPL?
Aug 22 13:13:01 <gambler> Other Peoples Libraries? damn tlas
Aug 22 13:15:40 <tric> or write some ruby2dex compiler ;)
Aug 22 13:16:10 <Zohan> or C/C++
Aug 22 13:25:30 <tomgibara_> Maybe this is a super dumb question: Has anyone successfully called Camera.open() ?
Aug 22 13:27:43 <anno^da> yes
Aug 22 13:30:59 <tomgibara_> on 0.9?
Aug 22 13:32:37 <shriram> has anyone worked on omap using 0.9
Aug 22 13:33:04 <tomgibara_> Bah, found the mistake id attr. instead of name attribute on permission
Aug 22 13:35:21 <anno^da> :)
Aug 22 13:39:11 <BBHoss_> heh these ringtones are nuts
Aug 22 13:41:13 <BBHoss_> anyone here know if i can use something like AMQP (Message Queuing) with android?  I was planning on using XMPP's PubSub support, but I found AMQP and it seems like a better fit.
Aug 22 13:48:42 <shriram> has anyone worked on 0.9 release git version
Aug 22 14:22:00 <muthu> http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/8/verizon-google-kiss-and-make-up-for-search-deal-but-where-s-android-
Aug 22 14:24:05 <anno^da> could someone give me the initial values for Mountain View California (geo location)
Aug 22 14:25:45 <muthu> its in google maps
Aug 22 14:27:32 <Zohan> good thinking jenkins
Aug 22 14:28:07 <Zohan> (zohan loves this commercial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YPaD-S-lRo)
Aug 22 14:39:52 <anno^da> What does that error mean: "08-22 16:39:07.340: ERROR/AndroidRuntime(13553): java.lang.RuntimeException: can't alloc pixels"
Aug 22 15:29:47 <vol> Hello again, for those who remember me from a few months ago
Aug 22 15:30:02 <vol> has anyone tried doing any JNI work?
Aug 22 15:30:14 <Zohan> like?
Aug 22 15:30:16 <vol> cygwin + arm toolchain = WHY WON'T YOU COMPILE : (
Aug 22 15:30:51 <vol> I can make static libs just fine
Aug 22 15:30:59 <vol> but it just won't work with jni
Aug 22 15:31:35 <jasta> i have used jni in M5, haven't tested it on 0.9r1
Aug 22 15:31:37 <vol> hell, it didn't even want to include the jni headers properly
Aug 22 15:31:40 <jasta> but i suspect it should work fine
Aug 22 15:31:49 <vol> I'm sure it works just fine for someone with a correctly set up machine
Aug 22 15:31:56 <jasta> i also didn't use Cygwin...
Aug 22 15:32:18 <jasta> in this day and age, why would you?  vmplayer and Ubuntu? :)
Aug 22 15:32:26 <vol> I have a linux machine at work.
Aug 22 15:32:29 <vol> It is a p3 867
Aug 22 15:32:32 <vol> it is busy making some data
Aug 22 15:32:37 <vol> so, I am on my windows machine right now.
Aug 22 15:32:52 <vol> let us say, for the moment, dev work on linux is not an option.
Aug 22 15:33:09 <jasta> i don't really ahve time to help you anyway, sorry
Aug 22 15:33:16 <vol> thanks anyway
Aug 22 15:39:06 <ttuttle> vol: /me thinks you should just wait for your Linux box back.  It's not worth the trouble.
Aug 22 15:41:09 <vol> well, I'm going to try and make a few vanilla, non-android JNI apps, and see if I can figure something out from that.
Aug 22 15:44:18 <jasta> vol: did you read this: http://davanum.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/android-invoke-jni-based-methods-bridging-cc-and-java/ ?
Aug 22 15:44:35 <jasta> i used these instructions to build my JNI tests...
Aug 22 15:45:16 <vol> YES
Aug 22 15:45:17 <vol> YES I DID
Aug 22 15:45:18 <vol> (argh)
Aug 22 15:45:19 <vol> sorry
Aug 22 15:45:26 <vol> it's just that everyone waves that link like a magic talisman
Aug 22 15:45:36 <vol> I'm actually trying to build from that exmaple
Aug 22 15:45:38 <vol> *example
Aug 22 15:45:51 <vol> I'm stuck on step 6
Aug 22 15:45:57 <jasta> don't get upset with me because you use inferior systems.
Aug 22 15:46:02 <vol> in that I'm getting all sorts of "hurf durf jint is undefined"
Aug 22 15:46:09 <vol> kinds of errors
Aug 22 15:46:15 <vol> which means that something, somewhere, is wrong.
Aug 22 15:46:40 <jasta> you get jint is undefined?  jint is defined in the jni headers.  confirm that is true on your system.
Aug 22 15:47:10 <ttuttle> vol: missing #include?
Aug 22 15:47:20 <vol> actually, sorry
Aug 22 15:47:25 <jasta> jni.h includes system-specific jni_md.h, which defines jint
Aug 22 15:47:25 <vol> that's not true
Aug 22 15:47:28 <vol> it's not complaining about jint
Aug 22 15:47:32 <vol> it's complaining about
Aug 22 15:48:01 <jasta> so you are going to lie about your problems too?  man, helping you is such an attractive proposition but i think instead i'll just go to work
Aug 22 15:48:17 <ttuttle> vol: What is it complaining about?
Aug 22 15:48:28 <vol> let me pastebin
Aug 22 15:48:35 <ttuttle> vol: Okay.
Aug 22 15:49:11 <vol> oh awesome I clicked "close" instead of "copy"
Aug 22 15:49:13 <vol> sigh
Aug 22 15:49:15 <vol> (one sec)
Aug 22 15:49:21 <ttuttle> vol: It sounds like you're just having a tremendously bad day :-(
Aug 22 15:49:25 <vol> (hatred for terminal)
Aug 22 15:49:27 <vol> so far, yes.
Aug 22 15:49:59 <tric> vol: ive got jni working. im using a ansi c lib via jni
Aug 22 15:50:24 <jasta> lol, this guy is funny to me :)
Aug 22 15:50:52 <vol> yes, I'm sure everyone who uses it has it working, and this is a retarded config issue for me
Aug 22 15:50:55 <ttuttle> jasta: Don't be mean.  If you don't want to help someone, just leave them alone.
Aug 22 15:51:07 <vol> I'm just getting frustrated to the point where I'm making stupid mistakes
Aug 22 15:51:13 <vol> http://pastebin.com/m40a7a374
Aug 22 15:51:40 <vol> ./inc is unimportant; I put the header in a different directory to test something. ./include is where I put /jdk/include and ./include/win32 is /jdk/include/win32
Aug 22 15:51:48 <jasta> vol: my first thought is, what's on win32/jni_md.h line 16? :)
Aug 22 15:51:55 <ttuttle> == jasta
Aug 22 15:52:00 <ttuttle> Looks like a problem *in* the header files!
Aug 22 15:52:01 <vol> because for some reason arm-none-linux-gnueabi-gcc refused to find jni.h if I just pointed it out with the full location
Aug 22 15:52:08 <vol> let me check
Aug 22 15:52:12 <jasta> ttuttle: what does that == <nick> stuff you always do mean?
Aug 22 15:52:25 <ttuttle> jasta: It means, approximately, "I agree with <nick>."
Aug 22 15:52:32 <vol> typedef __int64 jlong;
Aug 22 15:52:38 <vol> oh god kill me :@
Aug 22 15:52:38 <tric> vol: which jdk do you use?
Aug 22 15:52:42 <vol> 1.6
Aug 22 15:53:19 <tric> and you use a windows sdk and try to build for linux? hmmm
Aug 22 15:53:33 <jasta> vol: well perhaps you need to find the code path that you want jni_md.h to take and make it take it.  __int64 is probably some Microsoft junk that Cygwin doesn't provide.
Aug 22 15:53:46 <jasta> or actually, better yet, make Cygwin take the Linux path :)
Aug 22 15:54:13 <vol> as in /cygdrive/c/Program\ Files/Java/jdk1.6.0/include/?
Aug 22 15:54:13 <Acsia> has anybody played with v0.9 instrumentation yet?
Aug 22 15:54:20 <vol> because that actually lets it not find jni.h at all
Aug 22 15:54:22 <vol> which is delightful
Aug 22 15:54:38 <vol> also, iirc, __int64 isn't a MS specific define, but I could be wrong
Aug 22 15:54:39 <jasta> vol: now that i think about it, i am quite certain that you MUST take the Linux path.  You aren't bloody building for Windows.
Aug 22 15:54:43 <tric> well, if it cant find it, you call gcc wrong
Aug 22 15:55:01 <vol> gcc -I/cygdrive/c/Program\ Files/Java/jdk1.6.0/include/?
Aug 22 15:55:07 <vol> that seems right to me
Aug 22 15:55:17 <vol> anyway, you're probably right
Aug 22 15:55:22 <vol> I should probably just do this on a linux machine
Aug 22 15:55:48 <ttuttle> vol: Yeah, probably ;-)
Aug 22 15:55:50 <jasta> honestly, i am sure you could make this work, but why the hell are you struggling to avoid two free downloads?  vmplayer and Ubuntu.
Aug 22 15:55:50 <vol> I should like to point out that I tried using plain old gcc as well, though, which was built for win32
Aug 22 15:55:54 <vol> and it has this problem too
Aug 22 15:55:55 <vol> ok, jasta
Aug 22 15:55:57 <vol> look
Aug 22 15:55:59 <vol> I'm at work
Aug 22 15:56:03 <vol> I'm not the IT guy
Aug 22 15:56:04 <vol> I get what's given
Aug 22 15:56:09 <vol> and I'm explicitly forbidden from dual booting
Aug 22 15:56:14 <vol> I HAVE ubuntu on another machine
Aug 22 15:56:17 <jasta> VMware isn't dual booting
Aug 22 15:56:19 <vol> it is very busy right now
Aug 22 15:56:24 <tric> use virtualbox or whatever.
Aug 22 15:56:37 <vol> I was actually going to pop open andLinux
Aug 22 15:56:54 <tric> or just tell them you cannot proceed without a proper build enviroment
Aug 22 15:57:03 <jasta> vol: answer this question very directly: why can't you use vmplayer and Ubuntu?
Aug 22 15:57:06 <vol> this is more of a "spare time" thing
Aug 22 15:57:10 <ttuttle> vol: Ah.
Aug 22 15:57:22 <tric> yiz ever tried to use gcc -I/something without any space in the path?
Aug 22 15:57:26 <tric> you
Aug 22 15:57:47 <vol> yes, I tried that, and it couldn't find jni.h either, whic his the annoying thing.
Aug 22 15:57:51 <vol> actually no
Aug 22 15:57:56 <vol> not w/o any space in the path
Aug 22 15:57:59 <vol> but the space is escaped
Aug 22 15:58:23 <vol> I suppose that might count regardless as an arg for their parser, but it seems odd.
Aug 22 15:58:38 <jasta> vol: are you ignoring me on purpose?
Aug 22 15:58:50 <vol> jasta: no, I was about to respond
Aug 22 15:58:56 <tric> jasta: cause he doesnt wont to i guess ;)
Aug 22 15:59:02 <tric> he likes it the hard way
Aug 22 15:59:04 <vol> I haven't used vmplayer before, though I could do that. I already have andLinux, and I may as well just use that.
Aug 22 15:59:33 <vol> I was just hoping to not have to download an extra set of everything
Aug 22 16:00:07 <jasta> andLinux seems like a more complex environment that you would then have to debug through.
Aug 22 16:00:23 <vol> I actually find it very pleasant, tbh
Aug 22 16:00:25 <jasta> vmplayer we know to be a perfect emulation, and is also known to work in this instance.
Aug 22 16:00:34 <jasta> pleasant doesn't mean that it will work for what you're trying to do.
Aug 22 16:00:38 <vol> the only problems with it is that it has issues shutting down, in that it doesn't cleanly unmount
Aug 22 16:00:49 <jasta> well fine, you do whatever you want.
Aug 22 16:01:07 <jasta> your stubbornness has cost you so much time already, i'm sure you're not worried about that.
Aug 22 16:01:25 <tric> but your problem isnt a jni problem at all. its simply a c and compiler problem.
Aug 22 16:01:33 <vol> the stubbornness of not immediately growing a neckbeard, embracing RMS by his large waist, and purchasing a gnu?
Aug 22 16:02:11 <vol> also, I was wrong, __int64 is indeed MS specific
Aug 22 16:02:15 <jasta> vol: no, of wasting your time forcing a solution that no one recommends.
Aug 22 16:02:25 <jasta> vol: which is actually very much like a neckbeard wearing, RMS fanboy.
Aug 22 16:03:02 <vol> jasta: I'd like to waste 10 minutes trying to see if this works in andLinux before I waste an hour installing and configuring and setting up VMware
Aug 22 16:03:12 <vol> I'm sure vmware works just fine, and if andLinux doesn't work for this it's what I'll do
Aug 22 16:03:28 <jasta> an hour?  hehe
Aug 22 16:03:48 <yakischloba> oh jeez ladies its too early for this shit.
Aug 22 16:03:48 <jasta> it'd take more time to download the Ubuntu ISO than to do what you're trying to do.
Aug 22 16:03:55 <jasta> but it's your time
Aug 22 16:04:02 <ttuttle> == yakischloba
Aug 22 16:04:16 <vol> I actually have an 8.0.x CD on my desktop atm
Aug 22 16:04:37 <vol> anyway, work calls, thanks for the help so far
Aug 22 16:51:36 <jasta> yawn
Aug 22 17:02:24 <BBHoss_> whats this "security issue" with the gtalk protocol thats keeping it out of the 1.0 release?
Aug 22 17:03:22 <jasta> BBHoss_: what are you reading?
Aug 22 17:03:27 <jasta> i am curious why it's not in
Aug 22 17:03:37 <BBHoss_> http://www.anddev.org/new_android_sdk_v09_r1_released__screenshots_of_new_ui-t2707.html
Aug 22 17:03:55 <davidw> hrm... why can't it find www.hecl.org ?
Aug 22 17:04:03 <davidw> err... where 'it' is the built in android browser
Aug 22 17:05:11 <BBHoss_> jasta: heard anything about this?
Aug 22 17:08:34 <jasta> hehe, its so funny to me that he thinks he can copyright those screenshots
Aug 22 17:09:17 <muthu1> lol
Aug 22 17:09:28 <davidw> oh, yeah, the big COPYRIGHT... I thought that was funny too
Aug 22 17:09:33 <jasta> BBHoss_: no, i haven't heard anything about that.
Aug 22 17:09:37 <zohann> im off, weekend. cya
Aug 22 17:09:51 <jasta> BBHoss_: but it certainly seems to be out, and that is a surprise
Aug 22 17:10:18 <BBHoss_> yeah
Aug 22 17:10:51 <BBHoss_> well they trashed XMPP support so who knows
Aug 22 17:11:14 <muthu1> gtalk is available from browser
Aug 22 17:11:24 <BBHoss_> muthu1: what does that mean
Aug 22 17:11:32 <muthu1> for the end user
Aug 22 17:12:09 <muthu1> not for the developers atleast for now
Aug 22 17:12:49 <BBHoss_> i need AMQP support, but i was thinking i could use XMPP or maybe even GTalk
Aug 22 17:13:03 <jasta> muthu1: the whole point, i thought, was that they wanted us to build peer-to-peer stuffs with it.
Aug 22 17:13:13 <jasta> efficient protocol for networked applications, like games
Aug 22 17:13:29 <muthu1> yeah, but the carriers are having their say
Aug 22 17:14:56 <muthu1> it all started with the removal of xmpp support
Aug 22 17:16:03 <BBHoss_> if it runs java the carriers can forget any kind of limitations
Aug 22 17:16:24 <davidw> BBHoss_, it depends - potentially once they get the source code, they can hack the shit out of it to make it lame
Aug 22 17:16:32 <davidw> but that remains to be seen
Aug 22 17:16:51 <BBHoss_> yeah, but i doubt google would let them fuck it up that bad
Aug 22 17:17:14 <davidw> why not? it's open source... they get to do what they want
Aug 22 17:17:51 <muthu1> its all compromises
Aug 22 17:18:03 <muthu1> google gets search
Aug 22 17:18:09 <muthu1> carriers do what they want
Aug 22 17:18:51 <muthu1> it really is a gphone
Aug 22 17:19:26 <romainguy> it is not a gphone
Aug 22 17:19:29 <romainguy> we're building a platform
Aug 22 17:20:08 <muthu1> it depends on the carriers at the end of the day
Aug 22 17:20:19 <muthu1> for ex: will they bundle yahoo search?
Aug 22 17:21:59 <muthu1> it would be great, if we can integrate our app with the built in google apps
Aug 22 17:22:04 <muthu1> like orkut, gtalk etc.,
Aug 22 17:24:10 <muthu1> pricing also disappoints me..
Aug 22 17:24:21 <romainguy> the pricing has not been announced
Aug 22 17:24:29 <muthu1> oh ok
Aug 22 17:24:40 <muthu1> guess i was relying on tmonews!
Aug 22 17:24:41 <jasta> muthu1: remember earlier when you said that t-mobile officially made an announcement?  that is simply false.
Aug 22 17:24:49 <muthu1> right
Aug 22 17:24:58 <jasta> and you claimed that tmonews.com was t-mobile.com, despite that being obviously false as well.
Aug 22 17:25:25 <muthu1> i thought it was there in tmobile site somewhere
Aug 22 17:26:20 <jasta> you just imagined that, because you don't bother to interpret the source of the information you read.
Aug 22 17:26:24 <tomgibara_> romainguy: I have some questions about Surfaces/Camera/GL
Aug 22 17:26:27 <jasta> you don't read critically, and so you are easily confused.
Aug 22 17:26:37 <muthu1> haha
Aug 22 17:26:38 <jasta> but it's ok, we know you.
Aug 22 17:27:09 <muthu1> jasta: what's your plan for adc2?
Aug 22 17:27:18 <jasta> i have already told you, i don't have one.
Aug 22 17:27:27 <muthu1> you said, you are thinking about it
Aug 22 17:27:38 <jasta> i said i will participate if it is convenient to do so.
Aug 22 17:28:06 <romainguy> tomgibara_: you can ask but I'm no expert :)
Aug 22 17:28:14 <jasta> if they do something silly that makes it inconvenient, i won't.  for example, if they leave in some of the silly rules from ADC1, I would not participate.
Aug 22 17:28:26 <tomgibara_> romainguy: More expert than me :)
Aug 22 17:28:34 <ttuttle> romainguy: hey!
Aug 22 17:28:34 <muthu1> jasta:  what silly rules?
Aug 22 17:28:37 <jasta> if they don't let me be an open source project, then i'm not interested.
Aug 22 17:28:52 <muthu1> i don't think they had that limitation
Aug 22 17:29:16 <muthu1> you can be opensource for sure
Aug 22 17:29:22 <jasta> muthu1: there are lots of rules in ADC1 that discourage open collaboration.  it was built into the rules that you could not dispute ownership of work, that you could not officially introduce new team mmebers, etc.
Aug 22 17:29:22 <tomgibara_> It's very complex, but starting with a simpler scenario: What's the best way of overlaying OpenGL graphics onto a camera preview?
Aug 22 17:29:53 <jasta> muthu1: that's why most projects waited until after round 1 submission to start showing off their apps
Aug 22 17:29:58 <jasta> and releasing source, the few that did.
Aug 22 17:30:08 <jasta> because the challenge by its nature discouraged collaboration.
Aug 22 17:30:21 <jasta> if ADC2 is also that way, then i am not interested.
Aug 22 17:30:29 <muthu1> new members were added all the time for p2
Aug 22 17:30:50 <muthu1> ADC2 will be more open
Aug 22 17:30:53 <jasta> but that's nothing to do with google or my project.  it's their money...
Aug 22 17:31:28 <muthu1> it will be a tough challenge next year
Aug 22 17:31:51 <jasta> muthu1: do you know how infuriating it is to listen to you give out these useless factoids?
Aug 22 17:32:01 <muthu1> haha
Aug 22 17:32:15 <muthu1> i thought you never listen to me
Aug 22 17:32:18 <jasta> i mean really, do you know that it frustrates people?
Aug 22 17:32:43 <jasta> do you even know the difference between truth and opinion?
Aug 22 17:33:30 <muthu1> lets hear from jastapedia :))
Aug 22 17:34:01 <tomgibara_> romainguy: I appreciate the richer functionality of the Camera classes, but it turns out that it's very problematic for me, one reason being that you can only get previews on a callback - answering that first question, is really just the start of my problems :)
Aug 22 17:34:30 <romainguy> tomgibara_: well I know you can overlay GL on top of regular views
Aug 22 17:34:37 <romainguy> and there's an API demo for this in the new SDK
Aug 22 17:34:45 <romainguy> it shouldn't be different from doing what you want
Aug 22 17:34:56 <tomgibara_> romainguy: I'm aware of that, but you can only capture camera previews onto a surface
Aug 22 17:35:11 <tomgibara_> specifically a surface which is @push buffers@
Aug 22 17:35:27 <romainguy_> you just use a second surface for the GL
Aug 22 17:36:00 <tomgibara_> Is that going to eat unreasonably large amounts of graphics memory?
Aug 22 17:36:09 <romainguy_> indeed :)
Aug 22 17:37:20 <romainguy_> using a SurfaceView is already something that eats a lot of memory
Aug 22 17:37:27 <romainguy_> because you basically use two windows
Aug 22 17:37:32 <romainguy_> and here you'd need a 3rd window
Aug 22 17:37:38 <romainguy_> with each window being double-buffered....
Aug 22 17:37:44 <tomgibara_> yes... ugh that's just what I thought
Aug 22 17:38:18 <tomgibara_> A second related question, what thread does the camera preview callback arrive on, and what happens if I hold it up?
Aug 22 17:38:26 <romainguy> I have no idea
Aug 22 17:38:28 <romainguy> but you can easily check
Aug 22 17:38:32 <tomgibara_> okay
Aug 22 17:38:35 <romainguy> in the callback, simply do this:
Aug 22 17:38:50 <romainguy> android.util.Log.d("Check", Thread.currentThread().toString())
Aug 22 17:38:58 <romainguy> if the thread is called "main", you're good
Aug 22 17:39:08 <tomgibara_> I should be able to just use the debugger I guess
Aug 22 17:39:15 <romainguy> or you can use the debugger
Aug 22 17:40:16 <jasta> romainguy: do you know about SimpleCursorAdapter?
Aug 22 17:40:22 <jasta> or CursorAdapter in general, really
Aug 22 17:40:41 <romainguy> I do yes
Aug 22 17:41:05 <jasta> is changeCursor() the right method to use to "set" the Cursor initially?  the SimpleCursorAdapter takes the Cursor in the constructor but i'd like to override that and remove it.  I want to execute the cursor after super(...) and set it.
Aug 22 17:41:34 <romainguy> yes changeCursor is the right way to do it
Aug 22 17:41:37 <jasta> the reason is that i don't like having to implement two separate code paths to support filtering as well as initial population, since i'm required to have the FilterQueryProvider return the original set anyway
Aug 22 17:42:00 <jasta> so i want my extended adapter to just call the same method internally on construction that it does for filtering
Aug 22 17:43:45 <tomgibara_> romainguy: Last question (I think): my approach from M3 onwards was to grab a preview frame, scale it up when drawing to my surface and scale it down to a separate bitmap to accelerate the image processing. This seemed like the most efficient approach. With the APIs as they are now, it appears that there is no way of doing this efficiently (anything near efficiently). Am I missing any tricks?
Aug 22 17:43:46 <jasta> likewise, the only example i could find that uses a cursor filter (AutoComplete4 I think) doesn't seem to use startManagingCursor/stopManagingCursor, which doesn't seme like the right way?  in my adapter, i override changeCursor() to make sure i'm managing the new cursor.
Aug 22 17:43:54 <jasta> is that proper behaviour?
Aug 22 17:44:18 <romainguy> tomgibara_: why can't you do it efficiently?
Aug 22 17:44:51 <romainguy> jasta: start/stopManagingCursor is just a nicety, like using managed dialogs, you don't have to use these
Aug 22 17:46:46 <ttuttle> romainguy: how's it going?
Aug 22 17:46:52 <romainguy> ttuttle: good :)
Aug 22 17:47:10 <ttuttle> romainguy: /me is stuck in a car to Pittsburgh.
Aug 22 17:47:25 <tomgibara_> I need to render it and process it. So I certainly need the bytes. But if I render it using the surface callback it forces the preview to be as large as the screen - whereas I want it smaller.
Aug 22 17:47:30 <ttuttle> romainguy: I know now why EVERYONE at Google has a WWAN card.  They're very nice.  (I'm tethered to my regular old phone using Bluetooth.)
Aug 22 17:47:42 <romainguy> I don't
Aug 22 17:47:53 <ttuttle> romainguy: Oh.  s/EVERYONE/a lot of people/;
Aug 22 17:47:56 <romainguy> :)
Aug 22 17:47:59 <romainguy> I should ask for one :p
Aug 22 17:48:05 <ttuttle> romainguy: Yeah, you should.
Aug 22 17:48:17 <jham> jasta: You could also call stopManagingCursor(adapter.getCursor()); startManaginCursor(newCursor); adapter.changeCursor(newCursor);
Aug 22 17:48:31 <romainguy> tomgibara_: hmm unfortunately I can't help you much with this
Aug 22 17:48:34 <ttuttle> romainguy: In case someone sneaks a bug into the code where unless you log in at 2 AM and change a line of code every Android phone will simultaneously explode.
Aug 22 17:48:40 <romainguy> jham: save me from the Cursor questions!
Aug 22 17:49:06 <romainguy> ttuttle: or just because I spend two hours every day in the shuttle
Aug 22 17:49:13 <ttuttle> romainguy: Yeah ;-)
Aug 22 17:49:19 <ttuttle> romainguy: Wait, don't they have wifi?
Aug 22 17:49:23 <romainguy> they do
Aug 22 17:49:26 <davidw> the new emulator seems slower to me:-/
Aug 22 17:49:30 <ttuttle> romainguy: And isn't the wifi WWAN-powered anyway?
Aug 22 17:49:42 <romainguy> yes but it's very slow
Aug 22 17:49:47 <romainguy> most people in the shuttle use WWAN cards
Aug 22 17:49:49 <tomgibara_> romainguy: I know - put simply - I'm stuck with a whole bunch of bytes that I can process, if ask for the format/size that would make it efficient, I can't stretch the preview fullscreen. If I ask for the preview fullscreen, I get swamped with a huge number of bytes that is then slow to downsample.
Aug 22 17:49:53 <ttuttle> romainguy: Heh.
Aug 22 17:50:00 <ttuttle> romainguy: Seems like a waste to install wifi then.
Aug 22 17:50:30 <romainguy> tomgibara_: that's what I gathered from your previous explanation, it's just that I don't know these APIs so I have no idea whether there's a way to do what you want
Aug 22 17:50:43 <romainguy> ttuttle: it's still useful for mail and code reviews
Aug 22 17:50:58 <ttuttle> romainguy: true
Aug 22 17:51:07 <ttuttle> romainguy: well, there's [redacted] for external mail.
Aug 22 17:51:10 <tomgibara_> romainguy: Totally separate thing: Is it a known bug in the calculator that dragging the textview at the changes the text alignment?
Aug 22 17:51:19 <tomgibara_> *at the top
Aug 22 17:52:05 <romainguy> no it's not
Aug 22 17:52:12 <romainguy> I wonder if it's a feature for some reason ^^
Aug 22 17:52:16 <romainguy> but it's weird
Aug 22 17:52:18 <romainguy> can you file a bug?
Aug 22 17:52:19 <tomgibara_> okay, I'll file it
Aug 22 17:57:33 <jasta> romainguy: i know that managed cursors are a nicety, but you *must* manage the cursor somehow, right?
Aug 22 17:57:49 <jasta> you can't let onDestroy() come without closing the cursor?
Aug 22 17:58:15 <jasta> but if you dont manage it yourself or with startManagingCursor, that condition is possible and now your app is 'wrong'?
Aug 22 17:59:25 <jasta> jham: i don't understnad what you mean?  i'm not changing the cursor myself, it's getting changed by a filter query provider
Aug 22 18:02:25 <jham> jasta: Ahh, I missed the part about the filter
Aug 22 18:03:16 <jasta> i just get so confused because it seems like so many of the samples don't behave "correctly".  they're sloppy.
Aug 22 18:04:17 <anno^da> romainguy: could you please look at the following problem later on if you got some time?  (http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/112f3eb6b9b47d29#)
Aug 22 18:04:56 <jasta> anno^da: did you look at my sample yet?
Aug 22 18:06:20 <anno^da> yeah I've looked at it but not till the end. I had not much time today. Had to do some work for university.
Aug 22 18:07:10 <anno^da> tomorrow should my first book arrive regarding threading in java
Aug 22 18:07:18 <ttuttle> anno^da: yay
Aug 22 18:09:21 <anno^da> (jasta of course I've looked through the whole document but I really need some time to get it into my head. To really understand it)
Aug 22 18:27:40 <jasta_> lunch :)
Aug 22 18:29:06 <tomgibara_> romainguy: Thanks for taking time for my questions. I forgot to mention another bug I encountered, this time in the home app: Adding a clock to a folder doesn't behave as expected, known?
Aug 22 18:29:51 <romainguy_> tomgibara_: it's not a bug
Aug 22 18:29:57 <romainguy_> widgets cannot be added to folders
Aug 22 18:30:12 <tomgibara_> I guessed that, but what happens is that the clock appears over the top of the folder
Aug 22 18:30:51 <romainguy_> ah
Aug 22 18:30:55 <romainguy_> this was fixed since the SDK
Aug 22 18:31:01 <tomgibara_> ok
Aug 22 19:13:25 <jasta> lame.
Aug 22 19:14:33 <jasta> romainguy: SimpleCursorAdapter does not support dynamically changing the cursor, nor does it support initializing with a null cursor and setting it later.
Aug 22 19:15:14 <jasta> was this intentional?
Aug 22 19:15:20 <jasta> it seems like it would be simple to adjust the code to work
Aug 22 19:15:54 <jasta> just conditionalized findColumns() in the constructor and also hook into changeCursor to call it.
Aug 22 19:18:08 <jasta> conditionalize*
Aug 22 19:34:46 <thrashus> what kind of hardware does android run on?
Aug 22 19:35:50 <thrashus> would i just write the drivers for the hardware that that kernel uses?
Aug 22 19:37:45 <ttuttle> thrashus: It's Linux, so it could probably run on anything that Linux supports.
Aug 22 19:39:05 <jasta> Yes, Android should be portable to any target Linux is portable to.  However, Android obviously has some basic requirements to be useful: radio, touchscreen, etc.
Aug 22 19:39:10 <thrashus> so android is just an sdk that run on top of linux
Aug 22 19:39:30 <jasta> thrashus: Not that simple.  Android, depending on your perspective, can be defined in a lot of different ways.
Aug 22 19:39:53 <jasta> Android does require non-trivial modifications to the Linux kernel to work properly.  It uses an IPC system layered in the kernel, for example.
Aug 22 19:40:20 <jasta> It is also a set of system libraries such as a custom C library and numerous others particular to Android.
Aug 22 19:40:54 <jasta> The Java layer is essentially a custom windowing environment and UI toolkit, with lots and lots of other features supported by the bottom layers
Aug 22 19:41:25 <jasta> Android is generally described as a complete software stack to run mobile phones, and this is an accurate description covering the full range of its layers.
Aug 22 19:41:56 <thrashus> so if i were wanting to write a program to run on a handheld device such as games and other more simple apps, it is not really a phone at all
Aug 22 19:42:04 <jasta> But Android's linux modifications are not particular to any one specific phone.  That is how we were able to get Android running on the Vogue.  Just patch the kernel and hack in driver support for what was needed.
Aug 22 19:42:39 <jasta> thrashus: I'm not sure what you mean.  The software stack is very clearly oriented at being a phone, but most of us can see how it could one day be generalized to other types of devices.
Aug 22 19:43:28 <f00f-> it'll be in set-top-boxes for TV's one day
Aug 22 19:44:18 <thrashus> well what is it that makes it phone specific
Aug 22 19:44:38 <f00f-> nothing, it just has  host of phone-related api's
Aug 22 19:45:03 <f00f-> it's just a great framework/platform to build on
Aug 22 19:45:03 <thrashus> can you give me an example
Aug 22 19:45:24 <jasta> thrashus: of something phone-specific?
Aug 22 19:45:33 <f00f-> how about android.telephony.* ?
Aug 22 19:45:38 <f00f-> ....gsm.*
Aug 22 19:45:41 <f00f-> etc.
Aug 22 19:46:09 <jasta> thrashus: it makes few critical assumptions which would make it impossible to run on other types of hardware, but as it is packaged now it clearly orients itself that way
Aug 22 19:46:25 <f00f-> i'd say it's more oriented at certain screen sizes, too
Aug 22 19:46:31 <thrashus> could you write a pacman game in it for example
Aug 22 19:46:38 <jasta> there are some though.  for example, almost all of the way it is optimized to work is based on the notion that memory reads/writes are slow, and that there isn't much memory at all.
Aug 22 19:46:49 <jasta> thrashus: Of course.  The UI framework is very flexible.
Aug 22 19:46:58 <f00f-> well that's probably in the kernel layer jasta
Aug 22 19:47:13 <f00f-> you could swap out dalvik with a full jvm, too i'd think
Aug 22 19:47:13 <jasta> f00f-: It's in almost every layer beneath the Java one.
Aug 22 19:47:16 <thrashus> well what are the critical assumptions what hardware must i use?
Aug 22 19:47:43 <jasta> thrashus: Are you trying to port it to some existing hardware?
Aug 22 19:48:01 <thrashus> no i'm just trying to get an idea of what it could run on
Aug 22 19:48:12 <jasta> thrashus: Your questions are really too abstract at this point.
Aug 22 19:48:43 <jasta> If I asked you what could Linux run on, how would you answer that question?
Aug 22 19:48:49 <jasta> Probably just with "Lots of things."
Aug 22 19:49:55 <jasta> thrashus: It is not unreasonable to assume that Android could run on just about any device that would make sense for a light-weight software stack and interactive UI.  It's just a matter of how much work you'd have to do to make Linux work well there.
Aug 22 19:50:32 <jasta> Android, independent of its Linux layer, mostly is not poking around making assumptions about its hardware abstractions.  The wireless radio is a counter example, though.  It does makes lots of assumptions there :)
Aug 22 19:51:37 <thrashus> could it run on a microcontroller something like that
Aug 22 19:52:00 <jasta> doubtful.  Android is not so trimmed.
Aug 22 19:52:29 <thrashus> how much memory would you need
Aug 22 19:52:56 <jasta> thrashus: These are all too abstract, thrashnus.
Aug 22 19:53:02 <jasta> I would just be guessing, and so would anyone else.
Aug 22 19:53:17 <jasta> Android is a moderately light full software stack all the way up tot he UI and window management.
Aug 22 19:53:46 <jasta> That is not as light as, say, an embedded router would need.  It would greatly exhaust the typical memory found there.
Aug 22 19:53:53 <jasta> exceed*, not exhaust.
Aug 22 19:54:24 <jasta> That said, Android -- especially once opened -- could be composed in any way you wish.  You could gut the entire Java layer and most of the system libraries if you really wanted.
Aug 22 19:54:42 <jasta> And just hack around with a cool IPC system and goofy scheduler/OOM killer in Linux.
Aug 22 19:55:29 <jasta> thrashus: Try to appreciate that your questions as they are being phrased are not answerable though.  Software doesn't occupy physical space, and so you cannot simply measure what physical space it can fit inside of.
Aug 22 19:56:20 <thrashus> well i was asking how much memory does a typical program using this os take including the os
Aug 22 19:56:46 <Acsia> anybody using positron here?
Aug 22 19:56:59 <jasta> thrashus: Just boot the emulator and run adb shell.  You should be able to find out for yourself.
Aug 22 19:57:38 <jasta> but if you are not familiar with Linux and its memory allocation policies, don't try that.  You will fail miserably to interpret /proc/meminfo.
Aug 22 19:58:23 <jasta> thrashus: I would reasonably guess that Android targets 64MB or more to run very well.  Less than that and perforamnce will probably degrade on a predictable scale.
Aug 22 19:58:50 <thrashus> oh, i don't think any cheap microcontroller has that type of memory
Aug 22 20:00:49 <jasta> thrashus: Certainly not, which is what I asid earlier.
Aug 22 20:01:13 <jasta> thrashus: If you want a good benchmark, look at what smartphones now and in the last couple of years typically have as far as processing power.
Aug 22 20:01:17 <jasta> Android will run well on most of those.
Aug 22 20:01:27 <jasta> It will run poorly on substantially less.
Aug 22 20:01:43 <thrashus> i see
Aug 22 20:02:02 <jasta> Of course, that's just an assumption, but I think we can agree it is a safe one considering they won't expend engineering efforts to over-optimize for hardware they aren't going to target.
Aug 22 20:02:47 <jasta> thrashus: Again, this is a simple abstraction: it's a smartphone software stack, so it runs on smartphones. :)
Aug 22 20:03:00 <thrashus> ok right
Aug 22 20:03:12 <thrashus> let me check smartphone specs
Aug 22 20:03:16 <jasta> if you are familiar with Linux, you can explore the running emulator to prod more about what specifically it is doing.
Aug 22 20:05:01 <thrashus> you mean the linux kernel, i don't know much
Aug 22 20:05:55 <jasta> just do appreciate that knowing nothing about the linux kernel will make hacking it onto hardware basically impossible.  do plan significant time to learn that if you want to actually start some interesting project like that.
Aug 22 20:07:04 <thrashus> well i know a little about os
Aug 22 20:07:10 <thrashus> os's in general
Aug 22 20:07:15 <thrashus> no specific os's
Aug 22 20:08:31 <thrashus> well what do you think would be a good platform/os to run a few simple programs from
Aug 22 20:08:40 <thrashus> need a good ui
Aug 22 20:08:51 <thrashus> handheld device
Aug 22 20:11:04 <jasta> i really can't follow you when you are this abstract
Aug 22 20:11:21 <jasta> there are probably thousands of devices that you could use to run "simple programs"?
Aug 22 20:11:27 * davidw loved the 'architecture astronaut' article
Aug 22 20:11:38 <jasta> can you be more specific about what it is you want to accomplish>
Aug 22 20:11:41 <jasta> davidw: ?
Aug 22 20:12:27 <thrashus> well i want to run a few games and have a little menu
Aug 22 20:14:38 <jasta> are you wanting to write these games?
Aug 22 20:14:41 <jasta> or just run existing games?
Aug 22 20:15:06 <thrashus> either or
Aug 22 20:15:24 <jasta> ok, then i choose the latter, and then you should buy a Nintendo DS.
Aug 22 20:15:44 <thrashus> ok the former
Aug 22 20:16:04 <jasta> Apply at Nintendo.  What do you want me to tell you dude?
Aug 22 20:16:19 <thrashus> ok nevermind
Aug 22 20:16:20 <jasta> Android will let you write games, then you can run them on your phone if you buy one.
Aug 22 20:16:24 <jasta> Windows Mobile can let you do that too.
Aug 22 20:16:28 <jasta> So can iPhone, and Symbian, etc.
Aug 22 20:16:38 <jasta> OpenMoko, too.
Aug 22 20:16:56 <jasta> I'm sure there is someway to write games for the Nintendo DS too?  And Gameboy Advanced?
Aug 22 20:17:12 <thrashus> is that a fact
Aug 22 20:17:44 <jasta> Well mustn't there be?  How do game publishers do it?
Aug 22 20:18:03 <SUSaiyan> you can write games for the PSP too
Aug 22 20:18:05 <f00f-> oh this is still going on.
Aug 22 20:18:08 <jasta> I'm sure if you want to write games, a *GAMING* platform would proably support you very well.
Aug 22 20:18:14 <jasta> Yes, the PSP of course too.
Aug 22 20:18:28 <SUSaiyan> oh and dont forget palm!
Aug 22 20:19:55 <thrashus> you missed xbox
Aug 22 20:28:01 <jasta> thrashus: xbox isn't a mobile platform
Aug 22 20:37:15 <AttractiveApe> You forgot the Zune, jasta.
Aug 22 20:37:19 * AttractiveApe giggles.
Aug 22 20:37:24 <AttractiveApe> and n-gage.
Aug 22 20:44:23 <thrashus> what kind of processors do smart phones use?
Aug 22 20:45:07 <ttuttle> ...and, we're back!
Aug 22 20:47:41 <SUSaiyan> arm processors?
Aug 22 20:51:16 <jasta_> hehe
Aug 22 20:56:10 <ttuttle> SanMehat: hi!
Aug 22 20:56:17 <SanMehat> hey ttuttle
Aug 22 20:56:29 <ttuttle> SanMehat: How's it going?
Aug 22 20:58:11 <SanMehat> ttuttle: good good.. busy but good
Aug 22 20:58:23 <ttuttle> SanMehat: Cool.
Aug 22 20:58:36 <ttuttle> SanMehat: /me is stuck in the car on the way to school.
Aug 22 21:00:19 <davidw> and you're on irc while you're driving?:-)
Aug 22 21:00:37 <ttuttle> davidw: No, my dad's driving ;-)
Aug 22 21:00:38 <davidw> I would love to /kick and /ban people from the autostrada
Aug 22 21:01:18 * davidw sets mode +b *!dickhead@beamer
Aug 22 21:02:09 <krosaen> ttuttle: we miss ur verbosity, you seem a little shier on this room :)
Aug 22 21:02:34 <ttuttle> krosaen: Oh?
Aug 22 21:02:49 <ttuttle> krosaen: It's nonconf :-(
Aug 22 21:03:11 <krosaen> ttuttle: so u working on anything with sdk?
Aug 22 21:03:44 <ttuttle> krosaen: Nah, not yet.
Aug 22 21:04:43 <ttuttle> krosaen: My 2 weeks post-Google were spent on vacation with the family and doing tons of stuff like doctor's appointments and packing.
Aug 22 21:05:16 <ttuttle> krosaen: Yeah, I should do some SDK stuff.  I do want to work on the core codebase once it's open-sourced though.
Aug 22 21:05:46 <krosaen> sounds cool, keep us posted on any dev
Aug 22 21:06:06 <ttuttle> Sure ;-)
Aug 22 21:07:07 <ttuttle> krosaen: How's Android coming?
Aug 22 21:08:09 <krosaen> ttuttle: good good, we're as excited as everyone else for 'the second half of this year' :)
Aug 22 21:08:18 <ttuttle> krosaen: Hehehe.
Aug 22 21:08:26 <ttuttle> krosaen: /me can't *wait* to get one of the phones.
Aug 22 21:10:00 <krosaen> :)
Aug 22 21:10:26 <ttuttle> They're so awesome.
Aug 22 21:10:34 <SUSaiyan> i want one too
Aug 22 21:10:55 <jasta> ttuttle: you should join an open source project :)
Aug 22 21:10:57 <SUSaiyan> i hope europe gets some too
Aug 22 21:11:23 <ttuttle> jasta: I plan to help with Android when it's open-sourced.
Aug 22 21:14:01 <jasta> really?  off google's payroll?
Aug 22 21:14:37 <ttuttle> jasta: Or on it.
Aug 22 21:14:42 <ttuttle> jasta: I think it's a cool project, and I'd like to help with it.
Aug 22 21:16:29 <jasta> certainly is exciting
Aug 22 21:16:47 <jasta> i've got so much work left to do on Five that i can't fathom helping directly with the core for at least the next 6 mo
Aug 22 21:16:55 <jasta> though i'd like to get my hands dirty at some point
Aug 22 21:17:19 <jasta> hell, i feel like i've read through tons of it.  shame on me, i violated Google's precious license and decompiled stuffs :)
Aug 22 21:18:20 <ttuttle> jasta: Yeah, I'm more of a systems person.
Aug 22 21:18:24 <jasta> part of me thinks the only reason they are waiting to release source is because they want to hold on to the "wow" factor that they can drop when phones go to market.  just a lame way to make a headline.
Aug 22 21:18:49 <ttuttle> jasta: It's a legitimate reason, because there's no point in making a platform that nobody uses.
Aug 22 21:19:07 <jasta> what?
Aug 22 21:19:18 <ttuttle> jasta: They need to make a splash for it succeed.
Aug 22 21:19:48 <jasta> it's almost like your validating my crackpot theory
Aug 22 21:19:52 <jasta> you're*
Aug 22 21:20:01 <ttuttle> jasta: I may well be a crackpot ;-)
Aug 22 21:20:18 <jasta> but it's not a legitimate reason.  why not make a splash with a really awesome phone?  that's what conusmers care about anyway
Aug 22 21:21:38 <jasta> either way, i feel justified breaking the license ;)
Aug 22 21:26:17 <SUSaiyan> theres a license?
Aug 22 21:27:46 <ttuttle> SUSaiyan: yes
Aug 22 21:27:49 <jasta> SUSaiyan: yes, there's a proprietary license protecting Android currently.  in it, reverse engineering is explicitly a violation.
Aug 22 21:27:57 <jasta> also, redistribution of the SDK (though public) is against the license.
Aug 22 21:28:12 <jasta> it reads like boilerplate nonsense.
Aug 22 21:28:13 <ttuttle> Android is not yet open source.
Aug 22 21:28:34 <cbeust_> It's a pretty standard license really
Aug 22 21:28:49 <jasta> cbeust_: "boilerplate nonsense" :)
Aug 22 21:29:22 <SUSaiyan> hehe
Aug 22 21:31:47 <jasta> ttuttle: i will admit that i have doubts about Android embracing the free software attitude.
Aug 22 21:32:10 <davidw> what's going to be tough is the community... the license I don't think they will bail out of
Aug 22 21:32:40 <ttuttle> jasta: Yes, I know ;-)
Aug 22 21:32:47 <ttuttle> jasta: You've, er, hinted at such thoughts before. :-P
Aug 22 21:33:04 <SUSaiyan> that was a hint?
Aug 22 21:33:12 <ttuttle> SUSaiyan: sarcasm
Aug 22 21:33:26 <SUSaiyan> ttuttle: yeah, it was.
Aug 22 21:33:33 <ttuttle> SUSaiyan: jasta has made it quite clear that he believes Android is not going to be properly open source in the community sense ;-)
Aug 22 21:33:56 <SUSaiyan> ttuttle: i read that ;)
Aug 22 21:33:57 <jasta> actually, i did not make that quite clear.
Aug 22 21:34:05 <ttuttle> jasta: Not today, but before.
Aug 22 21:34:05 <jasta> i said i don't know, and that i have doubts.
Aug 22 21:34:25 <jasta> there's a difference :)
Aug 22 21:34:38 <ttuttle> jasta: The day they released 0.9, before it came out, you were saying that you thought they totally missed the meaning of open source.
Aug 22 21:34:47 <jasta> and i believe that.
Aug 22 21:35:02 <jasta> but that is passed tense; i cannot confidently predict their future attitude.
Aug 22 21:35:08 <jasta> past*
Aug 22 21:35:12 <SUSaiyan> lets hope it improves
Aug 22 21:35:21 <ttuttle> == SUSaiyan
Aug 22 21:35:29 <jasta> ttuttle: it isn't an uncommon attitude that Google really fucked this all up leading up to 0.9r1
Aug 22 21:35:55 <xavd> I'm hoping naysayers will publicly eat their hat once it happens
Aug 22 21:36:00 <jasta> and i think you'd be crazy to say this matches any open projects to date.  however, i don't know how to predict the future.
Aug 22 21:36:13 <ttuttle> == xavd
Aug 22 21:36:35 <jasta> xavd: that's a cute attitude.  maybe Google should clarify their intentions instead of being such a lumbering, evil beast?
Aug 22 21:36:57 <xavd> what's to clarify? We said it'll be open source, that should be enough
Aug 22 21:37:08 <jasta> "open source" doesn't mean "free software".
Aug 22 21:37:21 <jasta> it merely implies it.  you could be well within your word to not cooperate with the community.
Aug 22 21:37:54 <jasta> and even if your intentions are good, you guys could still fuck it up by putting the wrong people in front of the community.
Aug 22 21:37:55 <SUSaiyan> jasta: do you have a hat?
Aug 22 21:38:06 <xavd> apparently people like conspiracy theories, it's fine with me. I just hope they admit they were wrong.
Aug 22 21:38:29 <jasta> xavd: I so far have not had to do so.  You guys still never even said why all this NDA lameness happened.
Aug 22 21:38:30 <xavd> (if they are, in fact, wrong. I admint things could go wrong)
Aug 22 21:38:43 <ttuttle> jasta: I still don't get what's "evil" about waiting until you're done with something to release it.
Aug 22 21:38:59 <jasta> ttuttle: Nothing.  But you didn't do that.
Aug 22 21:39:20 <jasta> Not releasing it would be not saying "And it's available for download now!" :)
Aug 22 21:39:34 <xavd> jasta: note that I'm not only talking about you. There are plenty of people on the groups theorizing about all kinds of things
Aug 22 21:39:44 <jasta> You announced the release of something other than what you released on that day.  It was...confusing.
Aug 22 21:40:30 <jasta> You announced an open project, and then released something not.  Why not announce an open project, and clarify that said project is not the one you happen to be spitting out on that same day? :)
Aug 22 21:40:37 <jasta> Well, because honesty is bad for PR, apparently.
Aug 22 21:42:41 <ttuttle> jasta: Google has not yet released "Android".  Google has released a few "early look" and one "beta" SDK.
Aug 22 21:43:01 <jasta> ttuttle: That's my point.  It was not obvious that this was the case.  It was incredibly deceptive and confusing.
Aug 22 21:43:27 <jasta> We thought "early look" meant, "our APIs aren't done yet", not the project we're promising you doesn't exist yet, and won't exist for a then unspecified lenght of time.
Aug 22 21:43:41 <jasta> And not a short length of time.  That is going to bloody well have been a year ago by the time we get it.
Aug 22 21:43:49 <xavd> nothing was "deceptive" I think you read what you wanted to read
Aug 22 21:44:01 <jasta> Oh brother.
Aug 22 21:44:07 <ttuttle> jasta: Confusing, yes.
Aug 22 21:44:08 <xavd> confusing maybe.
Aug 22 21:44:14 <jasta> This goes back to my central argument that Google may not be evil, but they sure can be bumbling idiots.
Aug 22 21:44:21 <ttuttle> jasta: I think it's clear to people what an SDK for a platform is.  It's not the ode for the platform.
Aug 22 21:44:25 <ttuttle> *code
Aug 22 21:44:32 <ttuttle> It's the code *necessary to write* code for the platform.
Aug 22 21:44:37 <xavd> exactly
Aug 22 21:44:45 <ttuttle> In some cases, it's the same thing.
Aug 22 21:44:57 * jasta rolls his eyes
Aug 22 21:45:07 <jasta> Go watch the initial video from Sergey.  You tell me.
Aug 22 21:45:27 <ttuttle> jasta: /me can't right now (on cell internet) but will later.
Aug 22 21:45:28 <jasta> You tell me if maybe one choice sentence could not have cleared this whole big mess up?
Aug 22 21:45:40 <jasta> could have*
Aug 22 21:46:10 <xavd> that were I agree with the confusing part
Aug 22 21:46:17 <xavd> nothing was done to deceive on purpose
Aug 22 21:46:25 <jasta> I can tell you that I genuinely feel wronged through this whole process.  I would never have taken such a serious personal undertaking on if I could foresee Google's behaviour over this course of time.
Aug 22 21:46:50 <ttuttle> jasta: Honestly, Google itself took on a lot of risk.
Aug 22 21:47:06 <ttuttle> jasta: Nobody knows if Android will be a screaming success, a flop, or something in between.
Aug 22 21:47:15 <jasta> What about that comment sounds like a justification to you?
Aug 22 21:47:59 <jasta> Google took on risk, so that's fair of them to have taken advatange of a willing community looking for change?
Aug 22 21:48:02 <davidw> I think people at google thoroughly get open source
Aug 22 21:48:08 <ttuttle> davidw: I know it.
Aug 22 21:48:16 <ttuttle> davidw: They do get it.
Aug 22 21:48:17 <davidw> look at all the people they have there from Apache... Guido vR
Aug 22 21:48:26 <romainguy_> jasta: er how exactly did Google take advantage of the community?
Aug 22 21:48:41 <davidw> ttuttle, sure, sometimes though, getting it and transforming 'getting it' into 'doing it' are two different things
Aug 22 21:48:50 <ttuttle> davidw: Trust me, they're trying.
Aug 22 21:48:52 <jasta> romainguy_: Are you serious?
Aug 22 21:48:57 <ttuttle> davidw: See above about "finishing it" first ;-)
Aug 22 21:49:28 <ttuttle> davidw: For it to be worth anything, phones have to use it, so they need it to be done.
Aug 22 21:49:30 * davidw is going to "wait and see".  I'm rooting for Android though, because it's better than anything else out there
Aug 22 21:49:36 <ttuttle> davidw: yay.
Aug 22 21:49:41 <jasta> Bating everyone into developing for an "open" platform and then not only failing to announce plans of source, but also outright revoking our access to the SDK for what, half the time the f'n project existed publicly?
Aug 22 21:49:53 <ttuttle> jasta: Revoking?
Aug 22 21:50:17 <romainguy_> jasta: you were not revoked anything and I'm sure you are smart enough to maybe imagine there could be reasons for that
Aug 22 21:50:20 <jasta> ttuttle: The private SDK releases.  M5 was a buggy piece of crap.
Aug 22 21:50:24 <romainguy_> but eh :)
Aug 22 21:50:29 <ttuttle> romainguy_: How many private SDK releases were there?
Aug 22 21:50:36 <herriojr> I know people don't really care about m5 anymore, but I can't get the packages on http://it029000.massey.ac.nz/vogue/ to work....it keeps saying it failed to mount sdcard and then I get the command line
Aug 22 21:50:39 <SanMehat> jasta: M5 was a preview, always was.
Aug 22 21:50:40 <jasta> romainguy_: I can apprecaite that Google behaved in a way that makes sense for them.  I can still feel wronged by that.
Aug 22 21:50:42 <herriojr> has anyone ever experienced that?
Aug 22 21:50:45 <romainguy_> ttuttle: we cannot say that
Aug 22 21:50:50 <ttuttle> romainguy_: Oh.
Aug 22 21:50:51 <ttuttle> romainguy_: Okay.
Aug 22 21:51:00 <ttuttle> romainguy_: Clearly there is at least one ;-)
Aug 22 21:51:09 <ttuttle> romainguy_: Oh, Right.
Aug 22 21:51:13 <romainguy_> if you say so...
Aug 22 21:51:18 <ttuttle> romainguy_: ;-)
Aug 22 21:51:51 <jasta> romainguy_: The failure you seem to have is that self-promoting behaviour is invariably harmless.
Aug 22 21:52:03 <krosaen> jasta: no one can tell you how you feel of course, but if you assert that the entire community was taken advantage of, or wronged, we can certainly contend that :)
Aug 22 21:52:23 <jasta> Surely you are smart enough to imagine that.
Aug 22 21:53:04 <jasta> krosaen: Go read the forums, then.  I am in the community, you are not.
Aug 22 21:53:13 <ttuttle> romainguy_: Google seems to find a few mentions of them :-P
Aug 22 21:53:15 <ttuttle> Anyway...
Aug 22 21:53:17 <herriojr> *sigh*
Aug 22 21:53:48 <ttuttle> What would you prefer?  A platform that is fully open-source from the start, but has no promise of being deployed on a phone, or a platform that's deployed on a phone and becomes open-source a little later?
Aug 22 21:53:51 <krosaen> jasta: you are a member of the community, and we're listening.  but speak for your self please
Aug 22 21:54:02 <SanMehat> exactly.
Aug 22 21:54:23 <jasta> krosaen: All I can say is damn you for making a product that can remain attractive despite all this infuriating, self-promoting nonsense.
Aug 22 21:54:45 <jasta> ttuttle: Are those mutually exclusive?  What kind of logic is that?
Aug 22 21:55:12 <SanMehat> kids kids... anybody want to talk about code? :)
Aug 22 21:55:27 <xavd> jasta: this is what amuse me really. all those people would can't keep complaining and being negative are still apparently doing stuff on android and posting on groups/IRC. I then wonder how it can be *that* bad
Aug 22 21:55:28 <ttuttle> jasta: One has to get done first.
Aug 22 21:55:31 <romainguy_> SanMehat: when people try, jasta tell them to shut up, so it's hard :)
Aug 22 21:55:47 <jasta> xavd: It can be because this industry is in ruin.  Total ruin.
Aug 22 21:55:50 <_avatar> i think what some people fail to realize is that although google is a really cool company, it's still a company. that means that every release of anything probably has to go through a quite extensive set of reviews and tests, legal sign offs, etc. android is a huge project with lots of people screaming for it to be done soon. releasing a new SDK every couple weeks, or even months, would probably be a *huge* deal and cause many delays.
Aug 22 21:56:08 <jasta> xavd: Hell, do you know I currently have a Windows Mobile phone?  I've been using WM for years!
Aug 22 21:56:20 * ttuttle gives _avatar a cookie.
Aug 22 21:56:25 <xavd> _avatar: you have no idea how right you are :)
Aug 22 21:56:52 <jasta> _avatar: We all can appreciate that, but why does Google feel it necessary to leave that observation as a subtext to every action?
Aug 22 21:57:03 <jasta> Why not just say it "Hey, this *will* be open source; For now, we're busy coding."
Aug 22 21:57:18 <xavd> how many time do we have to say it
Aug 22 21:57:18 <xavd> ?
Aug 22 21:57:41 <davidw> xavd, 31456
Aug 22 21:57:57 <xavd> with that said, I'll just go back to indeed code.
Aug 22 21:58:05 <jasta> I can't believe the SD Kannouncement never followed some kind of "jeez, sorry about all that crud." :)
Aug 22 21:58:11 <xavd> jasta: btw I fixed the aidl issue you have in Eclipse ;)
Aug 22 21:58:29 <jasta> xavd: Great, it was a known bug since M3.
Aug 22 21:58:38 <xavd> i know :(
Aug 22 21:58:50 <jasta> I assumed it would be fixed because it was such an obvious "duh, we can't leave that in there!" type bug.
Aug 22 21:58:55 <tomgibara_> The android team is the hub of a very large wheel, even with the support of an axle like Google, they are bound to be under huge pressure.
Aug 22 21:59:09 * ttuttle gives tomgibara_ a cookie as well.
Aug 22 21:59:23 <tomgibara_> jasta: In that context, I'm not sure exactly who you are angry with
Aug 22 21:59:25 <davidw> jasta, how many of these dudes are you keeping tied up anyway?:-)
Aug 22 21:59:46 <jasta> davidw: asking for bug fixes, or harrassing with politics?
Aug 22 21:59:50 <davidw> back, back to the institute... I mean googleplex
Aug 22 22:00:24 <ttuttle> jasta: Also, consider that APIs are changing.  (Witness the changes from M5 to 0.9_beta.)  Would you rather be integrating those every week, or once every few months?
Aug 22 22:00:46 <jasta> ttuttle: Honestly, I can't believe Google didn't adopt an apologetic stance to try to win back some of the trust perceved lost since the first announcement was made.
Aug 22 22:00:54 <jasta> It is their official stance that has me so worried that they will ever "get it".
Aug 22 22:01:22 <ttuttle> jasta: Trust me -- they "get it".
Aug 22 22:01:29 <jasta> ttuttle: Once every couple of months would be great.  Not 7.
Aug 22 22:01:44 <jasta> Especially not when there are such huge f'ing bugs in it.
Aug 22 22:02:05 <jasta> I couldn't even debug half my projects because it would crash the process to do so.
Aug 22 22:02:36 <davidw> speaking of actual code, why wouldn't it be able to resolve and go to www.hecl.org in the new emulator?
Aug 22 22:03:13 * ttuttle fires up the emulator and tests.
Aug 22 22:04:06 * ttuttle needs to write some Android activities.
Aug 22 22:04:35 <anno^da> 08-23 00:01:43.640: ERROR/AndroidRuntime(1873): java.lang.RuntimeException: can't alloc pixels <- What does that error mean. I'm getting that error sometimes. And it is not bound to some special activity or event
Aug 22 22:05:48 <ttuttle> davidw: worksforme
Aug 22 22:06:04 <ttuttle> anno^da: Does something reliably fail when it happens?
Aug 22 22:07:12 <romainguy_> anno^da: look around this line in the log, there must be another error
Aug 22 22:07:20 <romainguy_> you probably run out of memory
Aug 22 22:07:36 <romainguy_> davidw: in the web browser? or in your app?
Aug 22 22:07:53 <davidw> so... there are a bunch of google dudes here, but no morrild... did he crack from the stress of dealing with jasta?
Aug 22 22:08:05 <romainguy_> probably :)
Aug 22 22:08:30 <xavd> or he's busy working and we're slackers
Aug 22 22:08:35 <xavd> (I know romainguy  is ;))
Aug 22 22:08:42 <romainguy_> haha
Aug 22 22:09:08 <davidw> he's been put to work in the cafeteria... "would you like wood oven roasted organic potatoes with that?"
Aug 22 22:10:10 <anno^da> romainguy: yeah I'm getting "08-23 00:01:43.591: ERROR/dalvikvm-heap(1873): 1944-byte external allocation too large for this process."
Aug 22 22:11:03 <romainguy_> here you go
Aug 22 22:11:07 <romainguy_> you are running out of memory
Aug 22 22:11:14 <jasta> ttuttle: why, by the way, would i trust you? :)
Aug 22 22:11:23 <jasta> ttuttle: i don't know you.  i've never heard of you, and i don't know what your background is...
Aug 22 22:11:47 <davidw> jasta, don't trust anyone, hole up in a trailer in the woods with yer guns?;-)
Aug 22 22:12:01 <jasta> well, it's just an odd thing for someone to say :)
Aug 22 22:12:11 <jasta> "trust me, we get <blank>"  ... but why would i trust that? :)
Aug 22 22:12:37 <jasta> if they said "trust me, we get search." i would say yeah, totally :)
Aug 22 22:12:45 <tomgibara_> jasta: "trust me" in that context is an invitation
Aug 22 22:12:57 <jasta> i decline ;)
Aug 22 22:13:00 <tomgibara_> You can decline without complaining about receiving it
Aug 22 22:13:17 <davidw> the new spinner is kind of lame looking, IMO
Aug 22 22:13:32 <jasta> davidw: also, i think the new progress bar is less glamorous looking.  but i bet it looks better on a phone.
Aug 22 22:13:40 <tomgibara_> jasta: agreed
Aug 22 22:13:49 <xavd> jasta: was that about google getting open source?
Aug 22 22:14:58 <tomgibara_> There are so many great touches in this release.
Aug 22 22:15:01 <tomgibara_> I love the way you can narrow applications in the home app by typing
Aug 22 22:15:40 <jasta> tomgibara_: you can?  i didn't know about that
Aug 22 22:15:45 <jasta> but i do love the filter query provider stuffs in here
Aug 22 22:15:55 <jasta> it's really sweet that they made it so simple to introduce that functionality into apps
Aug 22 22:16:03 <jasta> and tahts totally important too.  not being able to type search like that *sucks*
Aug 22 22:16:03 <tomgibara_> jasta: Yeah I found out when my activity crashed out while I was typing :)
Aug 22 22:16:25 <jasta> i added it to Five so you could search all your music :)
Aug 22 22:16:36 <jasta> i wonder if it makes sense to have some facility to "highlight" the searched letters tho
Aug 22 22:16:48 <tomgibara_> they are overlayed onto the screen
Aug 22 22:16:51 <jasta> i could implement it myself, but i don't want to be different.
Aug 22 22:17:02 <jasta> tomgibara_: yeah, but seeing it in the searched content might be helpful?
Aug 22 22:17:22 <tomgibara_> bit busy looking for my liking I think
Aug 22 22:18:41 <tomgibara_> Another great touch is the face detector in the "add icon" option
Aug 22 22:18:46 <anno^da> good night guys.
Aug 22 22:19:12 <jasta> tomgibara_: oh yes, that was so cool
Aug 22 22:19:54 <tomgibara_> I hope you can change the format of the clock widget in a future release
Aug 22 22:20:01 <tomgibara_> I'm not good w/ analogue clocks
Aug 22 22:21:24 <jasta> lol, i always get so scared when i typo some unix command and it starts churning like it's doing some horrific work to my files
Aug 22 22:21:59 <jasta> i typed fine data/ instead of find and my disk starting churning so i scream "what the hell does fine do?!"
Aug 22 22:22:11 <jasta> started*
Aug 22 22:22:45 <jasta> xavd: I'm fine if you guys want to just write me off as some annoying kook, but trust _ME_ when I say I get open source :)
Aug 22 22:23:46 <xavd> why should I trust you? ;)
Aug 22 22:24:13 <jasta> Becuase I have a very long history of writing, advocating, and using open source software.
Aug 22 22:24:46 <jasta> I "grew up" on open source.  It's the primary reason I am a capable engineer today.
Aug 22 22:25:36 <SanMehat> jasta: So have a lot of android developers
Aug 22 22:25:50 * gambler visualizes Brian Behlendorf feeding jasta cheerios...
Aug 22 22:26:16 <tomgibara_> continuing my list of great touches, the integration of route finding into the maps app is just so usable
Aug 22 22:26:57 <xavd> and so has google in general. see our various open source project that originated from google (gwt, gears)
Aug 22 22:27:48 <tomgibara_> xavd: Does any one contribute to those projects outside of Google?
Aug 22 22:28:07 <xavd> I think so
Aug 22 22:28:27 <jasta> tomgibara_: Not really.  No one can get write access.
Aug 22 22:28:33 <xavd> really?
Aug 22 22:28:38 <jasta> Yes, read the terms.
Aug 22 22:28:39 <tomgibara_> jasta: Do you know that?
Aug 22 22:28:50 <xavd> http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/makinggwtbetter.html#contributingcode
Aug 22 22:28:55 <jasta> I read the terms of contributions on Gears as a "guide" for what kind of crud we can expect for Android.
Aug 22 22:28:58 <tomgibara_> jasta: That doesn't mean that people won't contribute
Aug 22 22:29:59 <xavd> http://code.google.com/p/gears/ shows a contributor mailing list for gears, so there has to be a way
Aug 22 22:30:02 <jasta> tomgibara_: I know that.  I was rash to say "not really", but no one so far can get write access so...
Aug 22 22:30:11 <xavd> (granted, I'm not too familiar so there may be restrictions)
Aug 22 22:30:22 <jasta> xavd: It's right there on the GWT page too: only Google engineers are "currently" team members.
Aug 22 22:30:41 <xavd> that doesn't mean you can't submit a patch
Aug 22 22:30:51 <xavd> they can't open the tree in write to anyone who feels like it!
Aug 22 22:30:52 <jasta> xavd: I know, I just retracted my "not really" :)
Aug 22 22:31:10 <jasta> xavd: I don't advocate that.  But there must be some process for outsiders to get added on.
Aug 22 22:31:17 <jasta> even if it's by vote of the members
Aug 22 22:31:26 <jasta> It's important that it can happen, and that it does happen.
Aug 22 22:31:29 <SanMehat> i think they roll dice
Aug 22 22:31:39 <jasta> Apache is no different.  You have to be nominated.
Aug 22 22:31:51 <romainguy_> SanMehat: how would we know? we obviously don't get Open Source :)
Aug 22 22:32:23 <jasta> Stop it romain.  If you want to attack me that way you need to actually read what I say at the least.
Aug 22 22:32:49 <romainguy_> jasta: I don't care about attacking you, I'm just poking fun
Aug 22 22:32:53 <jasta> I started this whole conversation with merely a doubt.  I never once asserted that Google doesn't "get it".
Aug 22 22:34:16 <jasta> Honestly, this doubt stems from the fact taht Google hasn't even bothered to apologize for this ringer they put everyone through.  This has been a terrible ride, folks.
Aug 22 22:34:46 <Dougie187> sounds like soap box jasta is back.
Aug 22 22:34:46 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 22 22:35:23 <yakischloba_> came down from that pink cloud of the new release.
Aug 22 22:35:36 <yakischloba_> didn't even last as long as a 10 dollar crack hit
Aug 22 22:35:43 <SanMehat> hahaha
Aug 22 22:36:30 <Dougie187> what happened now?
Aug 22 22:37:13 <yakischloba_> Dougie187: just escalated out of nowhere. Nothing *actually* happened ;)
Aug 22 22:37:24 <Dougie187> oh ok.
Aug 22 22:37:35 <Dougie187> i thought some news came along that made him mad.
Aug 22 22:38:31 <jasta> i'm not even made, i just get frustrated dealing with the whole "you should have seen it coming you fool" attitude that people in the know have.
Aug 22 22:38:56 <jasta> mad*
Aug 22 22:39:25 <Dougie187> by people in the know do you mean, nda people?
Aug 22 22:39:31 <jasta> no, googlers
Aug 22 22:39:44 <jasta> maybe i am just being a fool, but i just don't "get it".
Aug 22 22:39:55 <jasta> i don't get any of it, i have no idea why they make the decisions they make.
Aug 22 22:39:58 <Dougie187> googlers as in devs? or people who google things?
Aug 22 22:40:08 <jasta> Dougie187: devs
Aug 22 22:40:11 <Dougie187> ok
Aug 22 22:40:14 <Dougie187> ;)
Aug 22 22:40:23 <Dougie187> I dont know that anyone gets any of it.
Aug 22 22:40:25 <jasta> i mean like, why can't i get the source to the music app if i want?  why can't i see the contacts app?  who cares, right?
Aug 22 22:40:30 <Dougie187> i don't usually understand why they do what they do.
Aug 22 22:41:02 <jasta> why with M5 didn't we see framework-res XML files but now we do?  i just...huh.  i don't get why this project is the way it is.
Aug 22 22:41:41 <xavd> what's up with the framework XML files?
Aug 22 22:42:18 <Dougie187> yeah i dont think they know whats going on either.
Aug 22 22:42:53 <jasta> xavd: the framework XML files were protected/hidden in M5, despite the huge value they would have provided.
Aug 22 22:42:57 <jasta> so i reverse engineered the format and got them out
Aug 22 22:43:07 <jasta> now they just drop them on us?  why did they ever decide not to?!
Aug 22 22:43:32 <tomgibara_> A lot of this commentary, it seems to me, comes down to choosing between, on the one hand "Google don't know what they are doing" and on the other "things are really complicated so there's no simple explanation"
Aug 22 22:43:50 <tomgibara_> I think the latter
Aug 22 22:44:15 <xavd> the reason they are in the SDK folder now (under tools/lib/res/default) is for the layout editor in eclipse.
Aug 22 22:44:18 <jasta> tomgibara_: it frustrates me that the googlers have this "what's the big deal?" attitude when they have all the information we seek.
Aug 22 22:44:31 <jasta> obviously you would feel that way if you had tons of details!
Aug 22 22:44:42 <xavd> I think we never put them in before because they shouldn't have been needed (in a perfect world where the doc had everything needed)
Aug 22 22:44:54 <jasta> xavd: Yeah, but your docs on the XML stuffs *SUCKED*
Aug 22 22:44:58 <jasta> horribly horribly sucked
Aug 22 22:44:59 <tomgibara_> jasta: Well, I just imagine the details :)
Aug 22 22:45:05 <romainguy_> xavd: and also because we kept changing them
Aug 22 22:45:52 <xavd> jasta: true. We probably thought that ApiDemos was enough
Aug 22 22:46:21 <jasta> xavd: yeah, apidemos also horribly horribly sucked.
Aug 22 22:46:23 <jasta> and still kind of does.
Aug 22 22:46:32 <jasta> there is so much not there that should be.
Aug 22 22:46:52 <xavd> you mean it's lacking, but what's there doesn't suck, does it?
Aug 22 22:46:58 <jasta> it could be worse, please don't punish me by taking even those away :)
Aug 22 22:47:16 <jasta> xavd: no, lots of the examples are "wrong".  like, they leak crap or implement shit in a way that you can't use in a production app
Aug 22 22:47:21 <jasta> they don't represent "best practices" at all
Aug 22 22:47:30 <jasta> they just represent least amount of code to demonstrate visually
Aug 22 22:47:51 <xavd> hmm yeah I think a lot of dev have been so busy with stuff that they never kept it up to date when API/mechanism changed :(
Aug 22 22:47:57 <jasta> there's lots of "common problems" in designing Android software that yeah, maybe is not too dissimilar from Java UI coding in general, but how does it hurt to demonstrate some of that stuff?
Aug 22 22:48:16 <jasta> like for example i had no idea for the longest time you could defer calling setContentView to some arbitrary point after onCreate()
Aug 22 22:48:34 <stadler> There's a guy on the android-developers mailing list who's doing a great job building tutorials.  Why don't you contribute to that effort?
Aug 22 22:48:48 <jasta> stadler: i have produced lots of tutorials, actually.
Aug 22 22:48:56 <jasta> *lots* of sample code, too.
Aug 22 22:49:31 <jasta> i 'm really active in that regard, because i find lots of Android to be such a mystery.  revealing "real" applications and not just crude samples would have been huge
Aug 22 22:49:34 <jasta> and i've said this many times before
Aug 22 22:49:37 <jasta> but nobody cares, of course
Aug 22 22:49:41 <xavd> jasta: where are they hosted?
Aug 22 22:49:48 <jasta> i was all excited about the android-apps thing that was announcd ages ago
Aug 22 22:49:56 <jasta> but then all we got was a SUPER crude wiki and some spinning globe
Aug 22 22:50:15 <jasta> xavd: lots of my stuffs is on http://android-random.googlecode.com, and i blog about other things http://www.devtcg.org
Aug 22 22:50:25 <xavd> cool
Aug 22 22:50:31 <jasta> in fact, i was just about to produce a new one on some stuffs i figured out recently that Romain hates me for using ;)
Aug 22 22:50:41 <jasta> but i don't care, 0.9r1 is "stable enough" for me.
Aug 22 22:51:11 <jasta> there's lots of shit on best practices that is missing.  efficient, elegant solutions to real android design issues.
Aug 22 22:51:39 <jasta> part of why i love open source is being able to see how other engineers who are familiar with those problems solve them.
Aug 22 22:51:43 <jasta> and having discussions about those solutions
Aug 22 22:51:51 <jasta> so you can develop a good paradigm for solving lots of common things
Aug 22 22:52:02 <jasta> and plow through code easily, leaving behind nice easy to maintain, efficient works.
Aug 22 22:53:28 <jasta> i guess maybe that's largely because Android is "evolving", but so far all the solutions i've came up with are general enough to port forward easily
Aug 22 22:54:24 <jasta> a while ago i tried to start up a discussion on a way to gracefully abort blocking threads waiting on Socket I/O (with HttpClient in particular)
Aug 22 22:54:55 <jasta> and then i ran into some lame bug in M5 and nobody bothered to help me figure out if this bug was resolved in the "next" release.
Aug 22 22:55:09 <jasta> now i know that it is, of course, but why did i just have to sit quietly and wait?
Aug 22 22:55:21 <romainguy_> jasta: because we are *busy*
Aug 22 22:55:34 <jasta> you guys already solved this problem, surely.  you can just show us the bloody solutions you already have!
Aug 22 22:55:55 <jasta> but still this attitude continues.  it's like the most trivial shit is a giant secret for some reason
Aug 22 22:56:05 <jasta> i just plain don't get it
Aug 22 22:58:00 <jasta> did somebody do that? :)
Aug 22 23:00:25 <jasta> xavd: FYI, i probably have 40k loc of Android-related stuff opened at this point.
Aug 22 23:00:41 <jasta> Five alone is 25k or so.
Aug 22 23:01:16 <yakischloba_> Anyone have stats on what percentage of lines typed in this channel come from jasta?..
Aug 22 23:01:32 <ttuttle> yakischloba_: lemme check
Aug 22 23:01:40 <AttractiveApe> bets, anyone?
Aug 22 23:01:44 <xavd> and whether that's more than his 40k loc ;)
Aug 22 23:01:44 <yakischloba_> 85%
Aug 22 23:01:46 <AttractiveApe> I'd guess 60%
Aug 22 23:01:54 <yakischloba_> xavd: definitely
Aug 22 23:01:56 <ttuttle> Oh, I don't have logs from all time.
Aug 22 23:02:23 <tomgibara_> jasta: but still this attitude continues.  it's like the most trivial shit is a giant secret for some reason <<< It's just the time it takes to publish something isn't it?
Aug 22 23:03:12 <tomgibara_> I have coded dozens of image processing routines for example, but published very few, simply because of the time it takes
Aug 22 23:04:03 <jasta> tomgibara_: i mean like, why wasn't Home opens ourced all along?  why isn't the contacts app available?  the code to some of the more trivial services...?  not any work involved in just selecting them and putting them in a build script to go into the SDK somewhere as examples
Aug 22 23:04:28 <ttuttle> Crude estimate is about 25%.
Aug 22 23:04:39 <jasta> i just type fast.  jeez.
Aug 22 23:04:46 <tomgibara_> jasta: It's always more work than that
Aug 22 23:05:24 <tomgibara_> I'm not pretending its necessarily a huge deal, but when you're busy any extra effort is too much
Aug 22 23:05:42 <jasta> that's true
Aug 22 23:05:46 <jasta> but that's what ttuttle is for
Aug 22 23:05:51 <tomgibara_> :)
Aug 22 23:05:56 <jasta> cheap college students that can't be trusted with real projects :)
Aug 22 23:05:59 <tomgibara_> That and -nojni switches
Aug 22 23:06:18 <jasta> tomgibara_: btw, "publish" is pretty easy if you don't bother to document *grin*
Aug 22 23:06:30 <ttuttle> jasta: Not true!
Aug 22 23:06:30 <ttuttle> jasta: Trust me.  I've worked on stuff that, if broken, would ruin Android.
Aug 22 23:06:32 <jasta> i publish some crap i don't feel like discussing by just committing it :)
Aug 22 23:06:59 <jasta> ttuttle: i'm sure the unit tests you built for it are really sweet too, really. :)
Aug 22 23:07:03 <tomgibara_> jasta: The truth is that, among good programmers, publishing any source code takes a long time, because they take pride
Aug 22 23:07:20 <jasta> hehe, i'm just poking fun.  i feel like i have to retaliate :)
Aug 22 23:07:24 <ttuttle> jasta: ;-)
Aug 22 23:07:38 <jasta> but joking aside, i know that all you did was unit test those systems :)
Aug 22 23:07:39 <jasta> hehehe
Aug 22 23:08:19 <ttuttle> Okay, among the last 2759 messages: 707 from jasta, 295 from me, 237 from michaelnovakjr, 174 from romainguy, 161 from Dougie187, 143 from anno&da, 105 from meoblast001, 101 from tomgibara...
Aug 22 23:08:33 <ttuttle> a word count would likely be more useful.
Aug 22 23:08:58 <Dougie187> i didnt know i typed that many messages, but a word count would be more helpful since i tend to hit enter a lot.
Aug 22 23:09:03 <jasta> ttuttle: i cry foul.  i just type fast. :)
Aug 22 23:09:08 <ttuttle> jasta: Yeah,
Aug 22 23:09:08 <ttuttle> jasta: so
Aug 22 23:09:09 <ttuttle> jasta: do
Aug 22 23:09:10 <ttuttle> jasta: I.
Aug 22 23:09:19 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 22 23:09:36 <jasta> line counting would put meoblast as the winner, surely. ;)
Aug 22 23:09:44 <ttuttle> jasta: No, that was line counting I just did!
Aug 22 23:09:46 <jasta> your script must be broken
Aug 22 23:09:47 <Dougie187> hah
Aug 22 23:09:50 <ttuttle> jasta: It's not!
Aug 22 23:09:53 <Dougie187> has he been back in here?
Aug 22 23:09:54 <jasta> impossible
Aug 22 23:10:12 <ttuttle> jasta:  grep " <" irclogs/Freenode.proxy/#android.log  | cut -d'<' -f 2 | cut -c2- | cut -d'>' -f 1 | sed -e 's/_\+1\?$//' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
Aug 22 23:10:20 <ttuttle> jasta: The above is licensed under the GPL.
Aug 22 23:10:36 <jasta> excellent.  i also senselessly license trivial things under the GPL for some reason.
Aug 22 23:10:44 <ttuttle> ;-)
Aug 22 23:10:51 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 22 23:10:52 * ttuttle loves shell scripting.
Aug 22 23:10:53 <ttuttle> It's so useful.
Aug 22 23:10:59 <Dougie187> it is usefull
Aug 22 23:11:01 <jasta> i only recently started choosing to make my sample code "public domain" (despite that it means nothing)
Aug 22 23:11:32 <jasta> i just have this vim auto license script that puts license blocks at the top of source modules
Aug 22 23:11:35 <jasta> it defaults to GPL
Aug 22 23:11:46 <jasta> so apparently that stupid script is the basis for all my code being GPLd.
Aug 22 23:11:59 <jasta> if only i knew how to change the default!
Aug 22 23:12:28 <ttuttle> jasta: Think of all the poor companies wanting to steal your code for their own profit!
Aug 22 23:12:33 <ttuttle> jasta: Shame on you for not Apache-licensing it.
Aug 22 23:13:10 <Dougie187> so that tropical storm is right over us now.
Aug 22 23:13:25 <Dougie187> a tad off topic. but still
Aug 22 23:13:39 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Eek.
Aug 22 23:13:59 <yakischloba_> came up in conversation with my buddy the other day, "why the fuck do people live in florida anyway? seems like a hurricane destroys 5 cities every couple months there"
Aug 22 23:14:03 <tomgibara_> Dougie187: There's been some storminess in here today/tonight
Aug 22 23:14:25 <Dougie187> yeah florida is a terrible place to live.
Aug 22 23:14:29 <Dougie187> i dont know why people live here.
Aug 22 23:14:34 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Heh.
Aug 22 23:14:36 <Dougie187> im only here for grad school. then im gonna get the f out.
Aug 22 23:14:40 <ttuttle> Dougie187: It's basically one big beach.
Aug 22 23:14:46 <Dougie187> but seriously. its only nice in the winters.
Aug 22 23:14:56 <Dougie187> summers are terrible.
Aug 22 23:15:42 <Dougie187> and people here are completely retarded too. the other day some jackass went kite surfing during the storm.
Aug 22 23:15:51 <jasta> ttuttle: are you in school?
Aug 22 23:15:56 <ttuttle> Dougie187: It's natural selection.
Aug 22 23:15:58 <Dougie187> and some ho bag from new york went swimming and died.
Aug 22 23:16:00 <ttuttle> jasta: I'm a few hours away from school, actually ;-)
Aug 22 23:16:11 <jasta> ttuttle: from a school?  or the one you go to? :)
Aug 22 23:16:12 <Dougie187> you start on monday?
Aug 22 23:16:15 <ttuttle> jasta: I'm returning to Carnegie Mellon for my sophomore year of Computer Science.
Aug 22 23:16:19 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Yeah.
Aug 22 23:16:20 <ttuttle> jasta: To school.
Aug 22 23:16:21 <Dougie187> Nice.
Aug 22 23:16:27 <Dougie187> Carnegie Mellon is awesome.
Aug 22 23:16:31 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Yeah, it'll be fun.  I'm taking Operating Systems.
Aug 22 23:16:37 <Dougie187> Sophomore undergrad?
Aug 22 23:16:40 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Yeah, it's an awesome place.
Aug 22 23:16:42 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Yep.
Aug 22 23:16:45 <Dougie187> cool.
Aug 22 23:16:47 <jasta> ttuttle: undergrad?
Aug 22 23:16:50 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 22 23:16:52 <ttuttle> jasta: Yep.
Aug 22 23:16:54 <Dougie187> a tad late jasta.
Aug 22 23:17:02 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Don't taunt jasta.
Aug 22 23:17:02 <jasta> huh?
Aug 22 23:17:08 <yakischloba_> haha
Aug 22 23:17:15 <yakischloba_> dougie is on top of it.
Aug 22 23:17:18 <Dougie187> eh its ok... we play diablo 2 together.
Aug 22 23:17:20 <ttuttle> lol
Aug 22 23:17:22 <jasta> don't belittle me, i'm a college dropout.
Aug 22 23:17:25 <jasta> ;)
Aug 22 23:17:30 <Dougie187> consider yourself belittled.
Aug 22 23:17:34 <ttuttle> jasta: Hey, many successful developers are dropouts.
Aug 22 23:17:45 <ttuttle> jasta: /me figures there is some useful knowledge to gain.
Aug 22 23:17:56 <Dougie187> i think its fun.
Aug 22 23:18:13 <Dougie187> i thoroughly enjoy going to school.
Aug 22 23:18:13 <ttuttle> Dougie187: It's fun, and it's *great* for networking for future jobs.
Aug 22 23:18:26 <Dougie187> yeah. and grad school is even better then undergrad.
Aug 22 23:18:31 <Dougie187> especially if you get funded.
Aug 22 23:18:40 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Yeah, I hear that's fairly easy in CS.
Aug 22 23:18:45 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Is that true?
Aug 22 23:19:00 <Dougie187> Ionno, im not in CS... well.. at least your CS.
Aug 22 23:19:02 <yakischloba_> I didn't get hungry until the spoon disappeared from in front of my face
Aug 22 23:19:05 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Oh, what are you?
Aug 22 23:19:16 <Dougie187> Scientific Computing/Computational Science.
Aug 22 23:19:21 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Ooh, that sounds like a lot of fun.
Aug 22 23:19:26 <Dougie187> yeah its pretty sweet.
Aug 22 23:19:38 <Dougie187> yakischloba_: when did that happen?
Aug 22 23:19:40 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Like physics simulations, or biomedical stuff, or what?
Aug 22 23:19:46 <Dougie187> anything.
Aug 22 23:19:53 <Dougie187> my undergrad is in Computational Physics.
Aug 22 23:19:59 <ttuttle> Dougie187: nice
Aug 22 23:19:59 <jasta> ttuttle: i was just being self-deprecating.  my actual feelings on the topic are very broad and i'm sure you're disinterested.
Aug 22 23:20:22 <ttuttle> jasta: Nah, I'm curious.
Aug 22 23:20:22 <Dougie187> but my masters is probably going to be something similar to Computational Atmospheric Sciences or something.
Aug 22 23:20:28 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Cool.
Aug 22 23:20:35 <yakischloba_> Dougie187: after 3-4 years of nothing but drinking and doing coke and letting myself down ;)
Aug 22 23:20:46 <Dougie187> coke as in coca-cola?
Aug 22 23:20:52 <ttuttle> Dougie187: /me doesn't know how he'd ever find a thesis topic... everything sounds so cool.
Aug 22 23:20:54 <yakischloba_> yeah. drinking coca cola.
Aug 22 23:20:57 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 22 23:20:59 <jasta> ttuttle: i just think college is like any other service.  you pay them to organize knowledge and resources for you.
Aug 22 23:21:19 <ttuttle> jasta: Yeah, pretty much.  And you pay smart people to talk to you.
Aug 22 23:21:21 <jasta> you can buy your own printer ory ou can go to Kinkos: either way, you'll get something printed.
Aug 22 23:21:25 <Dougie187> ttuttle: usually you just have to find an advisor. then they sort of "pick" your topic.
Aug 22 23:21:32 <ttuttle> jasta: I think it's a decent deal, especially given the connections you can make.
Aug 22 23:21:58 <ttuttle> jasta: I mean, it's a waste to treat it *only* as a transfer of knowledge.  There's people to meet, and it's a good way to transition from high school to the real world.
Aug 22 23:22:08 <jasta> ttuttle: Oh yes, it's a very good deal.  But some folks don't have a compatible attitude.
Aug 22 23:22:11 <Dougie187> yeah you get your advisors name on yours, which can be a big boost for your professional career.
Aug 22 23:22:14 <jasta> And so the service generally isn't sold to them.
Aug 22 23:22:42 <ttuttle> jasta: So far I seem to be doing a good job at the networking bit (I'm surprised, as I figured it would be hard for me).  (That's how I got my internship at Google.)
Aug 22 23:22:47 <Dougie187> jasta: how long were you in college?
Aug 22 23:23:16 <jasta> Dougie187: i got half way through my AA at a community college, despite two separate attempts at two different schools ;)
Aug 22 23:23:20 <Dougie187> my friend got his internship at firefox by creating a firefox logo crop circle.
Aug 22 23:23:25 <ttuttle> Dougie187: heh
Aug 22 23:23:27 <ttuttle> Dougie187: that's awesome
Aug 22 23:23:32 <Dougie187> hah. so like 1 year?
Aug 22 23:23:37 <jasta> Dougie187: yes.
Aug 22 23:23:47 <yakischloba_> I made it a quarter
Aug 22 23:23:55 <jasta> i started going when i was like 21 because i basically was between jobs and bored.
Aug 22 23:24:09 <Dougie187> do you plan to go back ever?
Aug 22 23:24:24 <jasta> oh yes, i do.  but absolutely under no condition will it be on my dollar.
Aug 22 23:24:31 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 22 23:24:36 <Dougie187> it is expensive as hell
Aug 22 23:24:37 <jasta> it's a *REALLY* great value if it's free.
Aug 22 23:24:39 <ttuttle> jasta: Oh, so like taking courses using an employer's tuition allowance?
Aug 22 23:24:47 <ttuttle> jasta: Just show up and see if they kick you out ;-)
Aug 22 23:24:47 <jasta> ttuttle: Yes.
Aug 22 23:24:57 <jasta> ttuttle: I did that, actually.  They did.
Aug 22 23:25:00 <Dougie187> hah
Aug 22 23:25:10 <ttuttle> jasta: I wonder sometimes if someone could get a large portion of a free CS education at CMU by just showing up.  Some of the lectures are fairly large.
Aug 22 23:25:15 <jasta> When I was 16 I did that at the local community college.
Aug 22 23:25:19 <ttuttle> brb
Aug 22 23:25:25 <Dougie187> yeah but you don't get credit for that ttuttle
Aug 22 23:25:46 <Dougie187> and thus no degree.
Aug 22 23:26:00 <jasta> and you also couldn't tell anyone you did it, because most people would feel wronged by your ingenuity.
Aug 22 23:26:19 <ttuttle> jasta: heh
Aug 22 23:26:20 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 22 23:26:34 <Dougie187> especially the frat guys you tell.
Aug 22 23:26:39 <yakischloba_> degree only means so much
Aug 22 23:26:40 <ttuttle> heh
Aug 22 23:26:46 <ttuttle> == yakischloba_
Aug 22 23:26:48 <jasta> ttuttle: the real bottom line is that i got myself here because i learned to code really young and my parents had no money
Aug 22 23:26:58 <Dougie187> yakischloba_: depends on your field.
Aug 22 23:27:02 <yakischloba_> Dougie187: true
Aug 22 23:27:05 <jasta> and so in my youthful irrationality i decided i don't "need" college.
Aug 22 23:27:20 <jasta> but i've later come to find that in many ways i was accidentally right.
Aug 22 23:27:27 <yakischloba_> if I went to college for anything, it would be so I could better understand what I was doing
Aug 22 23:27:42 <yakischloba_> lots of people just go to college for the resulting salary
Aug 22 23:27:47 <Dougie187> i think it would better suit you to learn something else.
Aug 22 23:28:12 <ttuttle> yakischloba_: a good salary is nice ;-)
Aug 22 23:28:30 <Dougie187> personally, breadth helps you a bit more then depth. at least in most circumstances. especially when you have a good amount of depth already.
Aug 22 23:28:32 <ttuttle> back
Aug 22 23:28:40 <yakischloba_> ttuttle: sure is
Aug 22 23:29:13 <jasta> ttuttle: I will admit that I also just have a personality that isn't compatible with academia.
Aug 22 23:29:19 <ttuttle> I feel like it exposes me to a lot of knowledge that I wouldn't pick up just learning stuff myself.
Aug 22 23:29:24 <jasta> Though that may be hard to imagine considering my position on idealistic things like open source.
Aug 22 23:29:24 <ttuttle> jasta: Yeah, I can understand that.
Aug 22 23:29:56 <ttuttle> jasta: Eh, the two are sorta orthogonal.
Aug 22 23:29:57 <jasta> I have felt this way my whole life, actually.  Institutions don't want me.
Aug 22 23:30:24 <Dougie187> jasta: i disagree. i think your personality would be well suited in certain situations in academia. granted it might help you to tone it down a bit though.
Aug 22 23:30:26 <ttuttle> jasta: /me felt that way for quite a while.  The second high school I went to, though, finally really accepted me.
Aug 22 23:30:41 <jasta> Dougie187: it isn't my personality if i have to "tone it down".
Aug 22 23:30:53 <ttuttle> jasta: I disagree.
Aug 22 23:31:01 <yakischloba_> ttuttle: and of course the circumstances of each persons situation vary wildly but, for someone who spends 4-8 years and the cost of tuition and comes out making maybe 2x what I do, the benefit is negligible from some perspective
Aug 22 23:31:03 <Dougie187> its tact if you tone it down.
Aug 22 23:31:13 <ttuttle> jasta: I can be really hyper and annoying.  I've accepted this, but I realize I have to keep... yeah, what Dougie187 said.
Aug 22 23:31:50 <jasta> I suppose, I was just being rhetorical. :)
Aug 22 23:31:50 <Dougie187> if your personality is to be a complete douche bag noone is going to talk to you if you dont tone it down a bit.
Aug 22 23:32:07 <ttuttle> Dougie187: lol
Aug 22 23:32:16 <jasta> I can't really appreicate the structure of education, though.
Aug 22 23:32:23 <ttuttle> jasta: In what sense?
Aug 22 23:32:31 <jasta> I can't agree with it, intrinsically.
Aug 22 23:32:31 <ttuttle> jasta: You mean like the way it's organized?
Aug 22 23:32:36 <Dougie187> jasta: i would say especially with traditional CS degrees.
Aug 22 23:32:46 <jasta> ttuttle: Yes.  I can't agree with the structure that schooling both is and probably has to be.
Aug 22 23:32:56 * ttuttle has actually found a lot of the traditional CS stuff somewhat useful.
Aug 22 23:32:57 <jasta> I don't conceptually agree that learning follows that structure.
Aug 22 23:33:01 <yakischloba_> I'd love to go back to school if I hadn't screwed it up for myself beyond reasonable recovery ;)
Aug 22 23:33:23 <AttractiveApe> #android - the devs are annoyed at lack of documentation on android, and have devolved to personality self-analysis and revolting against organized education.
Aug 22 23:33:24 <ttuttle> I knew about a lot of it, but in studying stuff like DS&A, I've really hardened my knowledge, so it's just second-nature for me to pick a data structure as I'm coding something.
Aug 22 23:33:26 <Dougie187> yakischloba_: it's never beyond reasonable recovery.
Aug 22 23:33:30 <AttractiveApe> quick, change the topic.
Aug 22 23:33:47 * ttuttle needs ops.
Aug 22 23:34:11 <Dougie187> well also keep in mind, your in one of the better schools for technical subjects.
Aug 22 23:34:20 <yakischloba_> Dougie187: of course not, but at what cost? Thats a major commitment who's outcome is not always certain
Aug 22 23:34:22 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Yeah, that's true.
Aug 22 23:34:43 <ttuttle> Dougie187: But honestly it's just the same stuff most data structures/algorithms courses have, and it's just useful to study it by itself, in depth.
Aug 22 23:34:59 <Dougie187> your school is not a good representation for other schools. in most cases.. the structure of the CS degree is garbage.
Aug 22 23:35:14 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Awwww..
Aug 22 23:35:19 <Dougie187> yeah it is. i agree with you. I thought Data Structures was awesome.
Aug 22 23:35:27 <Dougie187> but then again, that was the best CS class i took.
Aug 22 23:35:29 <Dougie187> all the other ones sucked.
Aug 22 23:35:49 <gambler> yakischloba_, whats stopping you?
Aug 22 23:35:54 <Dougie187> yakischloba_: its just to learn more.
Aug 22 23:36:51 <gambler> yakischloba_, if you want to go you should...college is alot of fun.
Aug 22 23:37:07 <Dougie187> ttuttle: when i talk to CS faculty they just complain about the programs they are talking about and say how it should be structured this or that way.
Aug 22 23:37:12 <yakischloba_> Dougie187, gambler: its hard for me to leave solid ground once I've been on it for a while
Aug 22 23:37:17 <ttuttle> Dougie187: We also had a class called Great Theoretical Ideas in Computer Science.  It was taught by the inventor of the CAPTCHA (who has the biggest ego ever, BTW), and it was amazing.  Basically it was a smorgasboard of probability, combinatorics, counting, computability...
Aug 22 23:37:19 <Dougie187> they don't think it does the program justice for what it should be.
Aug 22 23:37:22 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Honestly, we have those complaints at CMU too.
Aug 22 23:37:46 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Right now our two intro courses are in Java (yuck) and vary in quality from pretty good to horrible depending on the prof.
Aug 22 23:38:06 <Dougie187> our two intro courses were in java too. and i thought that was a terrible choice.
Aug 22 23:38:42 <Dougie187> actually. the first class is in c, and the teacher is always the dumbest grad student they can get. and then the next two were in java. and then it was data structures that was either taught in java or c depending on the teacher.
Aug 22 23:38:47 <Dougie187> luckily i got a c teacher, and it was awesome.
Aug 22 23:39:39 <Dougie187> hey jasta, has meoblast been back since we scared him off that night?
Aug 22 23:41:24 <ttuttle> brb
Aug 22 23:41:24 <Dougie187> ok
Aug 22 23:41:24 <ttuttle> back
Aug 22 23:41:57 <Dougie187> so this is your second year right?
Aug 22 23:44:21 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Yeah, going in to sophomore year.
Aug 22 23:44:25 <Dougie187> thats cool.
Aug 22 23:44:33 <Dougie187> is it a 4 or 5 year program?
Aug 22 23:44:33 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Yeah, I'm enjoying it.
Aug 22 23:44:41 <ttuttle> Dougie187: 4, although they have a Fifth-Year Masters' Program.
Aug 22 23:44:52 <Dougie187> damn, 1 year for masters?
Aug 22 23:46:04 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Not sure if I'm going to do that, or get a PhD, or go work for a few years and then go back for a PhD, or just go work.
Aug 22 23:46:04 <ttuttle> Dougie187: 1 year after the Bachelor's.  And I think it protrudes into your senior year as well.
Aug 22 23:46:04 <Dougie187> i hear it looks better if you get at least one of your degrees somewhere else.
Aug 22 23:46:04 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Yeah, and it's good to have variety.
Aug 22 23:46:04 <ttuttle> Dougie187: I'm probably going to look at MIT for grad school, as I like Boston.
Aug 22 23:46:04 <Dougie187> also, if you have any inclination to get an advanced degree. you should apply for one grad school at the end of your bachelors.
Aug 22 23:46:27 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Yeah, and postpone it, rather than try to apply later.
Aug 22 23:46:54 <Dougie187> that way you have letters of recommendation, and you have taken your gre. so then you don't have to go get all that stuff done later.
Aug 22 23:47:01 <Dougie187> because those are a lot harder to get after the people forget who you are.
Aug 22 23:47:43 <jasta> bbl folks
Aug 22 23:48:59 <AttractiveApe> yay netsplit.
Aug 22 23:49:01 <SanMehat> yay
Aug 22 23:52:35 <ttuttle> Dougie187: No, don't think so.
Aug 22 23:52:42 <Dougie187> some of the schools back in oregon had a january term, that was like you would take 1 or 2 classes just for january and be done with them.
Aug 22 23:52:49 <Dougie187> then spring term would start at the end of january.
Aug 22 23:53:02 <Dougie187> i start back on monday too though
Aug 22 23:53:15 <Dougie187> as long as the storm passes that is.
Aug 22 23:53:53 <ttuttle> Dougie187: We have a winter entry in our registration system, but I've never heard of courses taught then.  (Maybe there are.)
Aug 22 23:54:10 <Dougie187> We don't have one here.
Aug 22 23:54:17 <Dougie187> i just heard about it back at the other schools in oregon.
Aug 22 23:55:08 <Dougie187> when do you start back after xmas break?
Aug 22 23:55:19 <ttuttle> Eh, a couple weeks into January, I think?
Aug 22 23:55:23 <Dougie187> or "winter" break i guess is the PC term.
Aug 22 23:55:38 <Dougie187> Like right after MLK
Aug 22 23:55:52 <ttuttle> Dougie187: It's xmas break for me at least ;-)
Aug 22 23:55:57 <Dougie187> heh yeah.
Aug 22 23:56:12 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Plus "winter break" is insensitive to people from the southern hemisphere, in whose native countries the current season is summer :-P
Aug 22 23:56:46 <Dougie187> yeah but i don't think too many people would get behind that argument.
Aug 22 23:57:29 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Yeah, but all it takes is a couple of people to get the administration afraid ;-)
Aug 22 23:57:40 <Dougie187> lol true.
Aug 22 23:58:03 <Dougie187> either way. I recommend grad school, it is more fun imo then undergrad.
Aug 22 23:58:12 <Dougie187> and its a lot more relaxed.
Aug 22 23:58:16 <ttuttle> Dougie187: Yeah.  I'm enjoying undergrad, so I imagine it's even more fun ;-)
Aug 22 23:58:57 <Dougie187> funding is awesome too
Aug 22 23:58:57 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 22 23:59:03 <ttuttle> Dougie187: ;-)
Aug 23 00:03:49 <ttuttle> ping?
Aug 23 00:08:57 <ttuttle> andy-on-da-bus: heh
Aug 23 00:09:07 <ttuttle> andy-on-da-bus: WWAN++
Aug 23 00:09:32 <Dougie187> lol.
Aug 23 00:33:35 <fadden> adb -e shell getprop | grep jni  -->  [ro.kernel.android.checkjni]: [1]
Aug 23 00:33:58 <ttuttle> fadden: Remind me, is this a good thing?
Aug 23 00:34:17 <fadden> Some would say.
Aug 23 00:36:05 <fadden> The trick is figuring out how to turn it off.
Aug 23 02:16:07 <gambler> hmmm i cant use my expect script to automatically create opaque cryptographic keys...who knew keytool would be this smart
Aug 23 02:17:34 <Jakob_the_liar> http://www.imgdumper.com/file/img/2008/jan/13//thumb/3mhrz4pjj0jjzkpvlxqxiuob2.jpg
Aug 23 02:18:41 <gambler> she could lose a little weight
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Aug 23 02:59:57 2008