**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 27 02:59:56 2008
Aug 27 03:19:21 <f00f-> heh
Aug 27 03:19:28 <jasta> ?
Aug 27 03:19:49 <f00f-> i just read the blog post
Aug 27 03:19:55 <jasta> what blog post?
Aug 27 03:20:03 <f00f-> http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/08/some-information-on-apis-removed-in.html
Aug 27 03:20:12 <jasta> oh, that really tickled me ;)
Aug 27 03:20:14 <f00f-> it seems they are fulfilling some of my feature requests!
Aug 27 03:20:22 <f00f-> re. bluetooth
Aug 27 03:20:32 <jasta> sad that bluetooth won't make it into 1.0 :(
Aug 27 03:21:37 <laz> huh... it will
Aug 27 03:21:45 <f00f-> the API won't be
Aug 27 03:22:00 <michaelnovakjr> bluetooth headset doesn't count :)
Aug 27 03:22:03 <f00f-> so i suppose they'll write some magic in C to handle the basic profiles for headsets and OBEX
Aug 27 03:22:35 <f00f-> i'm really curious about firmware upgrades though
Aug 27 03:22:45 <jasta> f00f-: it still might be in java, they just might not generalize any of it.
Aug 27 03:22:50 <f00f-> right
Aug 27 03:23:09 <jasta> f00f-: me too.  firmware upgrades rigth now are typically handled by marketing/PR for carriers...
Aug 27 03:23:32 <jasta> there has to be business insentive it seems, which may be because they have to pay for the license from the vendor, but i dunno
Aug 27 03:23:57 <f00f-> and also, how long will a device be supported for upgrades...
Aug 27 03:24:00 <jasta> i dont think we'll see a lot of change there.  "last generation" devices will get updates in an untimely fashion, while devices older than that will just be left dangling
Aug 27 03:24:19 <jasta> that's been my experience with every smartphone i've had.
Aug 27 03:24:24 <f00f-> it would seem that since it's an open system, old devices need not be left dangling :)
Aug 27 03:24:28 <f00f-> yeah, same here
Aug 27 03:24:41 <jasta> f00f-: right, but as i said, i don't think it's really a technical limitation that causes this behaviour
Aug 27 03:24:52 <jasta> i think carriers want to model hardware and software as the same thing to their users
Aug 27 03:25:06 <f00f-> a complete package
Aug 27 03:25:11 <jasta> so they think their phone is "old" on both fronts, which gives them more incentive to upgrade, which gives the carriers another 2 years
Aug 27 03:25:30 <f00f-> yeah just marketing basically, but it works
Aug 27 03:25:38 <jasta> if users could just keep updating their software to get all the new goodies then it would stagnate new pruchases and carriers can't have that
Aug 27 03:26:14 <jasta> i'm hoping we'll see release cycles that make it possible to get some incremental updates tho
Aug 27 03:26:31 <jasta> WM just recently started doing this, even though i have yet to see them push a single update
Aug 27 03:26:46 <jasta> f00f-: hey, did you see that tool i just uploaded btw? :)
Aug 27 03:26:54 <f00f-> no, where?
Aug 27 03:26:56 <jasta> it's sweet.  i'm so sick of hand writing that crud ;)
Aug 27 03:26:59 <f00f-> oh
Aug 27 03:27:10 <jasta> http://code.google.com/p/android-random/source/browse/trunk/aidl-cblistsub/aidl-
Aug 27 03:27:14 <jasta> cbliststub.pl
Aug 27 03:27:16 <jasta> err, damn wrapping
Aug 27 03:27:18 <jasta> that
Aug 27 03:27:19 <jasta> it generates this:
Aug 27 03:27:59 <jasta> http://code.google.com/p/five/source/browse/trunk/five-music/src/org/devtcg/five/music/service/IPlaylistMoveListenerCallbackList.java
Aug 27 03:28:02 <f00f-> lol, i like how google code can't cope with the syntax highlighting
Aug 27 03:28:02 <jasta> from:
Aug 27 03:28:12 <jasta> http://code.google.com/p/five/source/browse/trunk/five-music/src/org/devtcg/five/music/service/IPlaylistMoveListener.aidl
Aug 27 03:28:24 <f00f-> ah
Aug 27 03:28:24 <f00f-> very nice
Aug 27 03:28:41 <jasta> yes, it's *SOOOO* much nicer to work with this :)
Aug 27 03:28:42 <f00f-> exactly what is needed for convenience
Aug 27 03:30:11 <f00f-> jasta you only have this one service in five?
Aug 27 03:30:28 <jasta> lol, no
Aug 27 03:30:32 <jasta> i just gave you an example
Aug 27 03:30:42 <jasta> i have 3 services between five-client and five-music
Aug 27 03:30:50 <jasta> CacheService, MetaService, and PlaylistService
Aug 27 03:31:16 <jasta> between those 5, there are 5 callback listeners, though.  so this script takes care of autogenerating 5 moduels :)
Aug 27 03:32:16 <jasta> between those 3*
Aug 27 03:34:02 * jasta is a huge fan of the service paradigm in Android hehe
Aug 27 03:37:57 <muthu> oy
Aug 27 03:38:10 <f00f-> yeah it's nice
Aug 27 03:38:39 <f00f-> i started using Processor paradigm in PedNav
Aug 27 03:38:43 <f00f-> morning muthu
Aug 27 03:42:00 <muthu> morning f00f-
Aug 27 03:42:04 <muthu> how you been?
Aug 27 03:42:24 <muthu> been silent for a while, busy?
Aug 27 03:52:31 <f00f-> muthu, i guess a little, getting 8 hours of sleep in the past week
Aug 27 03:52:43 <f00f-> which is always refreshing
Aug 27 03:52:59 <f00f-> i'm also looking for a new car, ever since i crashed my old one
Aug 27 03:54:01 <muthu> which one you buy?
Aug 27 03:54:27 <f00f-> haven't bought anything yet
Aug 27 03:54:44 <f00f-> looking at a mazda3 or 6 or something, maybe just a bicycle
Aug 27 03:54:48 <f00f-> too much crap out there
Aug 27 03:55:30 <michaelnovakjr> i just bought a volvo s80 and i love it
Aug 27 03:55:43 <michaelnovakjr> i recommend it :)
Aug 27 03:55:52 <f00f-> well i really want a saab 9-3 aero, but it's a tad bit pricey ;)
Aug 27 03:56:11 <michaelnovakjr> nice car
Aug 27 03:56:30 <f00f-> the 2008 models are dropping in price, since 2009 isn't on the lots yet
Aug 27 03:56:56 <f00f-> how's the resale value of the volvo?
Aug 27 03:57:09 <muthu> bicycle is a good choice :)
Aug 27 03:57:30 <yakischloba> bicycle+1
Aug 27 03:58:01 <f00f-> yeah if there were dedicated bike lanes here, i'd probably do it
Aug 27 03:58:07 <f00f-> i just don't trust other people to not run me over
Aug 27 03:58:26 <jasta> dude, don't be a chump.  don't buy a brand new car
Aug 27 03:58:27 <dmoffett> f00f at your age you should not worry about resale value but how many chicks you can get in the car.
Aug 27 03:58:32 <yakischloba> whuss
Aug 27 03:58:33 <muthu> the world will be more happier and healthier if we can all just ride bikes
Aug 27 03:58:51 <yakischloba> close calls only way I manage to way up on my way to work
Aug 27 03:58:54 <muthu> dmoffett: lol
Aug 27 03:58:56 <f00f-> haha yeah, that's why i'm looking at a sedan and not a coupe anymore
Aug 27 03:59:05 <yakischloba> wow I can't speak
Aug 27 03:59:16 <yakischloba> *close calls are the only way I manage to wake up on my way to work*
Aug 27 03:59:28 <f00f-> yakischloba: you live the dangerous life :D
Aug 27 04:00:07 <muthu> they have invented this car which runs in water
Aug 27 04:00:32 <yakischloba> I figure I'm far more likely to suffer minor to moderate injuries, but its certain I won't die instantaneously in some 70mph freeway accident
Aug 27 04:01:03 <muthu> the best part of my SF visit was biking
Aug 27 04:01:17 <muthu> but the worst part was the bike
Aug 27 04:01:26 * jasta just bought a bike
Aug 27 04:01:29 <jasta> i live next to green lake
Aug 27 04:01:53 <yakischloba> everyone ought to ride a bike! ;)
Aug 27 04:02:12 <jasta> basically, everyone hates f00f now.
Aug 27 04:02:13 <jasta> ;)
Aug 27 04:02:18 <yakischloba> yeah
Aug 27 04:02:30 <gambler> I like bikes but...bike commuting in a major US city? I prefer the mutually assured destruction of a V6 sedan
Aug 27 04:02:38 <f00f-> hah
Aug 27 04:02:46 <f00f-> http://www.unoc.net/a/rsx/P1040908.JPG
Aug 27 04:03:05 <dmoffett> I commuted on a bike in DC for 10 years.
Aug 27 04:03:17 <jasta> f00f-: what the hell happened to that car?
Aug 27 04:03:17 <dmoffett> It can be done.
Aug 27 04:03:24 <f00f-> jasta: i rolled it
Aug 27 04:03:30 <muthu> oh f00f-
Aug 27 04:03:34 <dmoffett> How did you roll it?
Aug 27 04:03:34 <muthu> man looks bad
Aug 27 04:03:41 <jasta> dude, are you wearing sockets with sandals?
Aug 27 04:03:55 <f00f-> rofl
Aug 27 04:03:56 <jasta> not cool.  not cool.
Aug 27 04:04:11 <f00f-> it's all i had
Aug 27 04:04:17 <jasta> uh-huh.
Aug 27 04:04:19 <jasta> ;)
Aug 27 04:04:22 <dmoffett> further confirming that foof does not like chicks.
Aug 27 04:04:25 <f00f-> dmoffett: i suspect the front left tire came off somewhat
Aug 27 04:04:26 <jasta> now we all really hate you.  socks with sandals.  oh jeez.
Aug 27 04:04:38 <f00f-> and so i lost control on an onramp
Aug 27 04:04:46 <f00f-> ended up between the first lane of 101 and the onramp
Aug 27 04:04:50 <f00f-> luckily only i was involved
Aug 27 04:04:51 <dmoffett> Wow
Aug 27 04:04:58 <yakischloba> shrug. I've been commuting through downtown Seattle every day for a year and have yet to suffer a serious accident
Aug 27 04:05:14 <jasta> yakischloba: my friend's been doing the same for 4 years
Aug 27 04:05:20 <jasta> although 3 months ago he was hit by a car
Aug 27 04:05:22 <f00f-> yeah this was my first 'incident' in 65,000 miles of driving
Aug 27 04:05:24 <jasta> but he's fine :)
Aug 27 04:05:30 <yakischloba> jasta: i happen to like wearing socks with sandals, though I haven't for about 5 years
Aug 27 04:05:43 <gambler> i get shit from my gf for socks/w sandels....I have a ridiculously luxurious velour housecoat too to top it all off
Aug 27 04:05:48 <yakischloba> yeah...I've been bumped around a little and slammed into a couple cars but nothing too bad
Aug 27 04:05:53 <jasta> yakischloba: it's a natural thing to grow out of when you discover that you like sex with women.
Aug 27 04:05:53 <f00f-> yakischloba: i went to my parents place, and my shoes had glass inthem soi couldnt wear them
Aug 27 04:05:58 <gambler> i like to emit the pimp image with my neighbours to top off all the time i spend on the computer
Aug 27 04:06:01 <f00f-> i dont have an explanation for the socks though jasta
Aug 27 04:06:04 <muthu> f00f-: your friends were with you?
Aug 27 04:06:10 <f00f-> no i was coming home from work
Aug 27 04:06:19 <yakischloba> lol
Aug 27 04:06:52 <muthu> f00f-: how long you stuck inside the car?
Aug 27 04:07:01 <f00f-> not long at all
Aug 27 04:07:03 <f00f-> well when i came to a stop
Aug 27 04:07:06 <f00f-> the music wouldnt stop playing
Aug 27 04:07:19 <f00f-> and  at that instant i forgot how to turn it off
Aug 27 04:07:21 <jasta> i flipped my car once before, and i remember the music continuing to play too
Aug 27 04:07:23 <f00f-> so then i tried to turn off the car
Aug 27 04:07:27 <f00f-> but the key wouldntr come out
Aug 27 04:07:35 <f00f-> so then i just said fuck it, and openeed the door and got out
Aug 27 04:07:40 <jasta> i had to get out with it still on, so the music was playing even when the cops showed up
Aug 27 04:07:48 <f00f-> yeah!
Aug 27 04:07:50 <jasta> hehe ;)
Aug 27 04:08:03 <yakischloba> sweeeet
Aug 27 04:08:18 <f00f-> my laptopt got pretty messed up though
Aug 27 04:08:22 <f00f-> it's full of glass/dirt pieces
Aug 27 04:08:27 <f00f-> still works like a charm though
Aug 27 04:08:41 <muthu> f00f-: were you drunk?
Aug 27 04:08:49 <gambler> at least you saved the important things
Aug 27 04:08:54 <yakischloba> yeah he was hammered on his way home from work
Aug 27 04:08:56 <f00f-> muthu: no wai
Aug 27 04:09:10 <f00f-> wasnt even speeding
Aug 27 04:09:14 <f00f-> i need to investigate why it happened
Aug 27 04:09:14 <muthu> good
Aug 27 04:09:21 <f00f-> and then possibly sue acura and/or the tiremaker
Aug 27 04:10:05 <gambler> tell the truth..your sandal got stuck under the accelerator
Aug 27 04:10:09 <gambler> its happened to me
Aug 27 04:10:18 <yakischloba> loller
Aug 27 04:10:21 <muthu> lol
Aug 27 04:10:30 <f00f-> hah
Aug 27 04:10:40 <gambler> hehe
Aug 27 04:11:14 <muthu> f00f-: who's that guy with you?
Aug 27 04:11:24 <f00f-> LOL
Aug 27 04:11:30 <f00f-> he's worse off than me
Aug 27 04:11:35 <f00f-> he runs the towing yard
Aug 27 04:12:11 <muthu> haha.. you can feel better now
Aug 27 04:13:27 <romainguy> re
Aug 27 04:16:22 <muthu> http://www.comtarticles.com/android-looks-set-to-exterminate-the-mobile-phones-market.html
Aug 27 04:17:15 <gambler> I can tell from the title thats not an article I want to read
Aug 27 04:18:09 <f00f-> boring
Aug 27 04:18:32 <gambler> [x] gambler
Aug 27 04:24:42 <jasta> sigh, my emulator is stoned again
Aug 27 04:34:34 <johnrw> Heya everyone
Aug 27 04:34:42 <jasta> hellol
Aug 27 04:34:44 <jasta> -l
Aug 27 04:34:51 <jasta> no.  +l.  i stand by it.
Aug 27 04:35:18 <johnrw> I am getting a stupid error on the Hello Android...
Aug 27 04:35:27 <jasta> what is it?
Aug 27 04:37:24 <johnrw> NLS missing message: initializer_error in: org.eclipse.core.internal.runtime.messages.
Aug 27 04:37:39 <jasta> seems to be that your Eclipse installation is fubared
Aug 27 04:37:42 <jasta> that's a core eclipse plugin
Aug 27 04:38:01 <johnrw> it's a 3.2 version...
Aug 27 04:38:13 <johnrw> Knoppix
Aug 27 04:38:18 <jasta> Android's plugin doesn't support 3.2 anymore.
Aug 27 04:38:59 <johnrw> oh... okay... so will upgrading Eclipse fixme up?
Aug 27 04:38:59 <jasta> Ubuntu (and lots of other distros) are still on 3.2, so most of us have had to uninstall the packages and go for the raw download
Aug 27 04:39:13 <johnrw> I see...
Aug 27 04:40:34 <johnrw> It's kinda why I am here... in this day and time... if I was Google... I would put together an iso I could boot from... like we do in knoppix, and have everything ready to just dive in. :)
Aug 27 04:43:00 <johnrw> I watched Microsoft kick IBM's ass... and they knew the value of developer support... which turned out to be why pcmag pronounced win 3.1 better to use... even though it was an inferior product, back in 1992 or thereabouts.
Aug 27 04:43:32 <johnrw> I should be able to download a reference VM and get to work! lol
Aug 27 04:43:49 <johnrw> just my 2 cents...
Aug 27 04:47:24 <muthu> android should just remove the eclipse plugin support
Aug 27 04:47:31 <johnrw> ok... well if there any real android devs here... here is my idea... 911 calls should have video support. If my wife calls 911... she should be able to point her camera at a would be attacker... complete with gps data. Problem is... current 911 centers do not have any video support. That's where Google Android steps in.
Aug 27 04:48:10 <muthu> johnrw: do you think people have that much time in case of emergency?
Aug 27 04:49:17 <johnrw> muthu: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7012056840
Aug 27 04:49:31 <johnrw> 30 freakin minutes that lady screamed.
Aug 27 04:49:52 <muthu> agree, it might be useful
Aug 27 04:49:57 <johnrw> just a few days ago
Aug 27 04:50:14 <muthu> there's a couple of emergency apps in top 50
Aug 27 04:50:28 <muthu> family watch, lready emergency manager, safety net
Aug 27 04:51:30 <johnrw> I think once an attacker knows his picture has been taken... and the image is already in the 911 desk operators screen... he just says... sorry... and stops the attack.
Aug 27 04:51:32 <gambler> johnrw, I think thats a good idea.
Aug 27 04:51:53 <gambler> johnrw, your giving way too much credit to the attacker thinking logically
Aug 27 04:52:09 <johnrw> No... they are all cowards...
Aug 27 04:52:18 <muthu> point and click for help
Aug 27 04:52:21 <muthu> that's a great idea
Aug 27 04:52:27 <johnrw> Is why they choose women...
Aug 27 04:53:05 <muthu> terrible..
Aug 27 04:53:08 <gambler> johnrw, some dude whos jacked up on PCP and coke, I dont think he'll be too worried
Aug 27 04:53:32 <muthu> wonder why 911 did not respond for 30 min?
Aug 27 04:53:39 <gambler> johnrw, ahve you read 'The Transparent Society' by David Brin?
Aug 27 04:54:07 <muthu> i love linux upgrades
Aug 27 04:54:20 <muthu> they just let you do your thing.. even while upgrading
Aug 27 04:54:24 <muthu> windows sucks!
Aug 27 04:56:11 <muthu> but X stopped working after the upgrade
Aug 27 04:56:29 <johnrw> So I come here to give you guys a good idea... to implement. Look at it another way... someone will implement that... eventually. Google can do it... when an Android based phone dials 911... it can simultaneously send feeds to 911.google.com/the_phone_number or some such.. and since it has gps data... it can call the precise police dept.
Aug 27 04:57:03 <johnrw> gambler: No I haven't read that...
Aug 27 04:57:45 <gambler> johnrw, its relevent to your idea
Aug 27 04:58:22 <f00f-> muthu: i'm moving to windows for development i think
Aug 27 04:58:32 <f00f-> we just ordered new laptops
Aug 27 04:58:34 <muthu> f00f-: WHAT?
Aug 27 04:58:41 <johnrw> Do yourselves a favor and call your local police dept and ask whether the idea seems useful. I would say in almost all cases... except people peaking on pcp and crack...
Aug 27 04:58:45 * muthu unsubscribes from f00f-
Aug 27 04:59:01 <f00f-> it's the sad truth
Aug 27 04:59:06 <muthu> nooooo
Aug 27 04:59:08 <f00f-> 99.99% of the time it works well
Aug 27 04:59:16 <f00f-> the rest of the time it's a royal PITA
Aug 27 04:59:25 <muthu> i'm sticking to fedora 9
Aug 27 04:59:33 <muthu> thinking of ubuntu
Aug 27 04:59:46 <f00f-> well for a laptop it may not be good
Aug 27 04:59:51 <f00f-> for a desktop, i still think linux is doable
Aug 27 05:00:01 <muthu> i have only a laptop
Aug 27 05:00:04 <f00f-> me too
Aug 27 05:00:18 <f00f-> although i treat my lappy as a desktop
Aug 27 05:00:25 <f00f-> 24/7 for 3 years straight
Aug 27 05:00:31 <muthu> i'm really throwing away junk stuff
Aug 27 05:01:19 <gambler> I think its a great idea, but I just dont think it would be a huge deterrent to anyone planning a violent crime.
Aug 27 05:01:49 <gambler> Plenty of other benefits though, like issue triage, evidence, etc
Aug 27 05:03:23 <johnrw> Ok peeps, l8r
Aug 27 05:03:58 <gambler> c u
Aug 27 05:11:56 <johnrw> heya... me again. Which Eclipse should I get? There's like 7 150MB ganymede packages... is the Eclipse Classic enough?
Aug 27 05:13:29 <muthu> yes
Aug 27 05:13:33 <muthu> classic should be fine
Aug 27 05:14:07 <johnrw> ok... well I didn't think it hurt to ask someone who's been down the road :)
Aug 27 05:15:00 <johnrw> I am surprised at knoppix... his stuff usually works out of the box... though it could be my hdinstall of it...
Aug 27 05:16:07 <johnrw> I did wish to stress how important ease of development should be... while I was here.
Aug 27 05:20:18 <johnrw> looking in debian unstable... it only has eclipse 3.2.2-6.
Aug 27 05:20:32 <f00f-> i just got java
Aug 27 05:20:41 <f00f-> no need for classic since not doing any plugin development
Aug 27 05:20:44 <f00f-> which is the bulk of classic
Aug 27 05:21:33 <johnrw> oh okay... the 84MB version... cool
Aug 27 05:22:21 <johnrw> It is needed to uninstall any previos version too... on a linux platform?
Aug 27 05:22:42 <johnrw> s/previos/previous/
Aug 27 05:22:42 <infobot> johnrw meant: It is needed to uninstall any previous version too... on a linux platform?
Aug 27 05:23:26 <johnrw> ok... that too :)
Aug 27 05:24:15 <muthu> i got rid of my bundled eclipse
Aug 27 05:26:34 <johnrw> well at least apt-get remove will help then. Now about java... I downloaded the current java jdk... and it says I can install it into my user profile... but says nothing about setting up environment vars to use that one over the systemwide one. Is setting up JAVA_HOME enough?
Aug 27 05:28:23 <johnrw> I did that and then Eclipse couldn't even get the android stuff to work... so i removed that env var... but I think eclipse is using the older java that came with knoppix.
Aug 27 05:32:22 <muthu> you can set the jdk version in eclipse
Aug 27 05:36:09 <johnrw> Version... do you mean the pathToJDK? Christ... I have like 8 eclipse packages installed...
Aug 27 05:36:52 <johnrw> here goes... riiiiiiiiiiipping out Eclipse 3.2.2-5
Aug 27 05:54:27 <cliff> johnrw: you can only do that when you're on wifi or 'good' 3g, EDGE and below networks don't let you connect to the internet at the same time as dialing
Aug 27 05:54:51 <cliff> some will pause instead of dropping the data link, but that's essentially the same thing for you
Aug 27 05:55:08 <cliff> and you definitely don't want to wait to send something over the data connection -before- connecting 911
Aug 27 05:55:40 <cliff> it's also worrisome in terms of adding more potential faults to the system while 911 is being called, you don't want anything breaking, no matter what
Aug 27 05:56:35 <johnrw> cliff: All good points.
Aug 27 05:58:07 <cliff> i think connecting voluntarily after 911 had been established would be cool though :)
Aug 27 05:58:39 <cliff> assuming you still could while staying connecetd
Aug 27 05:59:28 <johnrw> The weakness in using a cellphone to protect one's self... is any attacker could take the phone too. But if the data was not on the phone anymore... but in the police dept's custody... makes it truly unwise to keep the attack going. Ideally the 911 operator would make the decision to get video.
Aug 27 05:59:45 <johnrw> They could call back if the connection was broken.
Aug 27 06:00:25 <johnrw> But yeah... reliability is paramount... but so is evidence.
Aug 27 06:00:27 <cliff> yeah.
Aug 27 06:00:28 <cliff> that gets into worlds of privacy issues if remote video can be established :)
Aug 27 06:00:44 <johnrw> Only by 911... would be my guess...
Aug 27 06:00:48 <cliff> (without user intervention)
Aug 27 06:00:55 <cliff> well -- sure 'only by 911'
Aug 27 06:01:27 <cliff> what's to stop the cia from coming in and saying they absolutely have to do it for anti-terrorism reasons
Aug 27 06:01:28 <johnrw> I make it an appoint to NOT piss off any 0911 operators...
Aug 27 06:01:45 <johnrw> nothing.
Aug 27 06:02:09 <cliff> http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-150467.html
Aug 27 06:02:31 <cliff> see, i'm kinda not okay with that :)
Aug 27 06:02:57 <cliff> other people may be, it's a personal privacy thing
Aug 27 06:03:05 <johnrw> They probably already can... as I imagine the branch davidians  in waco texas found out... but that is another story.
Aug 27 06:03:39 <cliff> well..i know that my phone can't do it but that's only because i work for the company that manufactures the phone
Aug 27 06:04:09 <cliff> not that someone couldn't break into my place at night and install a physical microphone tap :P
Aug 27 06:04:26 <cliff> but i'm not a conspiracy nut so i don't worry about that
Aug 27 06:05:27 <johnrw> Yeah... I read 1984 too... and as long as Bush is in the White House... nobody is safe from that kinda bugging... but when push comes to shove... the Federal Government has been very responsible with it's powers... as they have had the way to implement nukes for 60+ years... and we are all still here... :)
Aug 27 06:06:01 <cliff> in any case, video / picture support with 911 is very compelling
Aug 27 06:06:23 <johnrw> If Bush were a dictator... we would all be in trouble....
Aug 27 06:07:12 <johnrw> but he's about to ride out of town! yipee... yeah, right... it is a compelling thing... that's why I come here and drop the idea on you guys...
Aug 27 06:09:19 <cliff> the client side is easy, support from 911 offices is difficult
Aug 27 06:09:40 <johnrw> Android could start small... in that way... sending a still picture... maybe. But that story of the woman who was stabbed for 30 minutes affected me. I think cell phones should and could be used to prevent that kind of thing. That's all.
Aug 27 06:09:57 <cliff> e911 was hard enough to implement
Aug 27 06:10:39 <johnrw> Yeah but now we are all paying for it... and it is a good thing... (keeps me from beating my wife) lol
Aug 27 06:12:14 <johnrw> Was a joke man..
Aug 27 06:15:49 <johnrw> If you are working for a company that does in fact make phones... then all you need to do is write the client app... maybe using a startup like http://qik.com/ see http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/interactive/la-ca-webscout23mar23,1,336119.story
Aug 27 06:16:44 <cliff> so
Aug 27 06:16:58 <cliff> the thing about that is that most operators tend to have a big say in what goes on the phone
Aug 27 06:17:15 <cliff> just because i write software doesn't mean it ships on the majority of our phones
Aug 27 06:20:04 <johnrw> the idea of having video evidence will sell. I called my local police station today... and the cop I talked to was really pretty positive about it being a good thing. Not a 911 operator.
Aug 27 06:20:20 <cliff> well, there are legal and technical issues
Aug 27 06:20:38 <cliff> i'm not sure that PDP contexts (data connections) can even stay active while a 911 call is active
Aug 27 06:20:57 <cliff> remember that 911 is special because you don't need to know your SIM card's PIN or even have an active SIM in order to call 911
Aug 27 06:22:25 <cliff> one thing i worked on a while ago was a way to text message a university's police dept using a short SMS code
Aug 27 06:22:32 <cliff> as well as send picture and video messages
Aug 27 06:25:38 <johnrw> right.. it's a special network... PSsomething... Public Safety something... but anyways... streaming video to qik.com would be enough... like just bind a special keystroke setup... and it starts a video... feed... but it really should be done on the same 911 call...
Aug 27 06:26:15 <romainguy> johnrw: note that with EDGE for instance you cannot make a call *and* use the data connection
Aug 27 06:26:38 <johnrw> which sucks...
Aug 27 06:26:40 <cliff> MMSs also use a data connection by the way
Aug 27 06:27:10 <johnrw> sounds like you need an intermediate party then...
Aug 27 06:27:31 <johnrw> whose job it is to call 911 for you... and handle video.
Aug 27 06:27:59 <cliff> yeah -- that's even more complicated technically
Aug 27 06:28:23 <johnrw> If I can establish a video feed to someone garanteed to be there waiting for an emergency... and that person will call 911 as well...
Aug 27 06:29:37 <johnrw> with my gps co-ordinates... I would think people who need it would use that.
Aug 27 06:30:40 <johnrw> You ever listen to some 911 calls...? They do have to ask you where you are sometimes... (which wastes valuable time)
Aug 27 06:32:45 <johnrw> Maybe court tv(now true tv) plays old 911 calls... but some of them are not so cool... like "This is 911. What is your emergency?" Imagine if the operator instantly had a video feed?
Aug 27 06:33:22 <johnrw> Ok... I hope you guys see the merit of the idea...
Aug 27 06:33:48 <johnrw> enough to implement it... open source style.
Aug 27 06:34:17 <f00f-> johnrw your idea is in round 2 already
Aug 27 06:34:41 <johnrw> implement what you can... and gaps will be filled later... is my hope.
Aug 27 06:34:43 <johnrw> huh?
Aug 27 06:34:49 <johnrw> foof:?
Aug 27 06:34:59 <johnrw> f00f-: ?
Aug 27 06:35:11 <johnrw> ya got me!
Aug 27 06:35:12 <f00f-> there's is a round 2 submission in ADc that does what you want
Aug 27 06:35:15 <f00f-> mostly
Aug 27 06:35:16 <f00f-> somewhat
Aug 27 06:35:26 <f00f-> there's also an emergency network coalition out htere
Aug 27 06:35:34 <f00f-> using ... Cell Broadcast
Aug 27 06:35:38 <f00f-> to implement some primitives
Aug 27 06:35:48 <f00f-> but nothing fancy like Video911 (TM)
Aug 27 06:36:20 <johnrw> oh yeah? maybe I am picking up on some of those vibes... Donald Sutherland style... woof! woof!
Aug 27 06:37:17 <f00f-> for shore
Aug 27 06:38:19 <johnrw> Well me personally... I don't think 911 is the only purpose for it... imagine if people could take pictures at demonstrations and stuff.. pictures that were garanteed to reach others... where the copps have no point in taking cameras away from journalists like they so often do...
Aug 27 06:38:44 <f00f-> yeah, exactly
Aug 27 06:38:56 <f00f-> not just for criminals, but everyday people, too!
Aug 27 06:39:14 <johnrw> yupper...
Aug 27 06:41:09 <johnrw> like when you get pulled over... it would be handy to hit *777 or something and send an audio stream to somewhere...
Aug 27 06:41:44 <johnrw> where the phone doesn't even light up... and looks harmless.
Aug 27 06:44:38 <johnrw> but sends sound as 10mb gmail attachments...
Aug 27 06:45:53 <johnrw> with gps co-ordinates... and it would already be date stamped in gmail.
Aug 27 06:47:58 <f00f-> right
Aug 27 06:47:59 <johnrw> remember that story where the cop got cought threatening to make up any charge he wanted to a kid with a stealthy cell phone recorder...? The cop car had a tape in it, of the event, which disappeared mysteriously...
Aug 27 06:48:13 <f00f-> well i'd put that in my car
Aug 27 06:48:24 <f00f-> i've been working on something similar for cars
Aug 27 06:48:27 <f00f-> record video, too
Aug 27 06:48:42 <f00f-> but yes, having it on-person is good too
Aug 27 06:51:16 <johnrw> but let's put it this way.... if cell phones Could be used to get video evidence... and the only thing stopping it was network capability... how big a hurdle would that be? How long would it be a hurdle? But network capability at present does not allow for it... which to me is an oppourtunity for a company with billions to spend and wants to get in on the cell phone market.
Aug 27 06:51:54 <f00f-> well
Aug 27 06:52:00 <f00f-> that would be a network investment, no?
Aug 27 06:52:05 <f00f-> well things are constantly improving anyway
Aug 27 06:52:21 <f00f-> for evidence you dont need VGA
Aug 27 06:52:27 <f00f-> 320x240 is plenty
Aug 27 06:52:31 <f00f-> at 5fps
Aug 27 06:52:33 <f00f-> tops
Aug 27 06:52:41 <f00f-> use AMR for audio
Aug 27 06:52:46 <f00f-> you'll get plenty of capacity
Aug 27 06:52:54 <f00f-> no one has really done it
Aug 27 06:52:56 <f00f-> not usre why
Aug 27 06:52:59 <f00f-> maybe there just is no use
Aug 27 06:53:05 <f00f-> but it's definitely a nice hobby project
Aug 27 06:53:11 <johnrw> Once they could be used to help 911, with 911Video (TM), then we would be able to make simultaneous video voice calls... as it would be capable in hardware...
Aug 27 06:53:23 <f00f-> well it's already capable in hardware for UMTS
Aug 27 06:53:27 <f00f-> simultaenous voice/data
Aug 27 06:53:39 <johnrw> Oh yeah?
Aug 27 06:53:41 <f00f-> same goes for 3G CDMA networks, i think
Aug 27 06:53:43 <f00f-> yeah
Aug 27 06:53:49 <johnrw> Well that's encouraging...
Aug 27 06:53:57 <f00f-> and once 4G networks roll around, they'll be all-IP networks
Aug 27 06:54:01 <f00f-> so voice will just be data
Aug 27 06:54:02 <johnrw> I thought someone said it wasn't possible...
Aug 27 06:54:08 <f00f-> no more circuit-switched garbage
Aug 27 06:54:11 <romainguy> johnrw: it's not possible on EDGE
Aug 27 06:54:19 <romainguy> which in the US is still the network you get everywhere
Aug 27 06:54:25 <romainguy> (not to mention GPRS)
Aug 27 06:54:50 <f00f-> johnrw: yeah only 3G-enabled markets give you that luxury :P
Aug 27 06:55:14 <romainguy> and 3G quality drops really quickly with reception quality
Aug 27 06:55:39 <johnrw> ok... well I don't want to waste you guys time... I am a novice... extreme... old timer... but the idea has worth. I believe.
Aug 27 06:55:52 <romainguy> johnrw: then go for it :)
Aug 27 06:56:14 <johnrw> Hell, I can't even get this development working...
Aug 27 06:56:30 <f00f-> yeah, i think it's possible today.. hopefully the android media API's are up for it :D
Aug 27 06:57:13 <johnrw> I am not the right person with the idea... but i know enough to come into #android and submit it for review... :)
Aug 27 06:57:41 <johnrw> Any of you guys ever used the old Googlebar?
Aug 27 06:58:04 <f00f-> i used it years ago, to determine PageRank value when it was the only way to find it
Aug 27 06:58:07 <romainguy> nope
Aug 27 06:59:04 <johnrw> well I am the project owner of that... so I hope i never broke your machines...
Aug 27 06:59:43 <johnrw> but after all that css and xul... I am kinda spent...
Aug 27 07:00:12 <johnrw> f00f-: on linux you mean...
Aug 27 07:00:45 <f00f-> sorry, i thought you meant the google official bar
Aug 27 07:01:18 <johnrw> no... http://googlebar.mozdev.org
Aug 27 07:01:54 <f00f-> yeah just figured
Aug 27 07:03:07 <johnrw> anyways... my point is... i did enough open source stuff... the pay was great... and so I am not entirely an I wish I could help kinda guy... but that also Google has a special place in me heart...
Aug 27 07:03:36 <f00f-> you got paid for OSS?!
Aug 27 07:03:48 <johnrw> I was being sarcastic...
Aug 27 07:03:55 <f00f-> well nowadays, people do get paid for it ;)
Aug 27 07:03:58 <romainguy> f00f-: I got and get paid for OSS :)
Aug 27 07:04:15 <f00f-> guilt-free :D
Aug 27 07:04:28 <romainguy> I did my share of non-paid OSS too :)
Aug 27 07:04:50 <cliff> does it count as getting paid for OSS if you are told it's going to be OSS but ends up not
Aug 27 07:05:07 <romainguy> cliff: except it will
Aug 27 07:06:24 <johnrw> Yeah... well I never got a dime. Just held the fort down for Google, and Mozilla users... until eventually Google recognized Firefox with an official toolbar.
Aug 27 07:06:31 <cliff> maybe..
Aug 27 07:06:40 <romainguy> cliff: whatever
Aug 27 07:08:28 <johnrw> brb
Aug 27 07:12:33 <cliff> well i don't know what you work on, i was more referring to my project :)
Aug 27 07:13:36 <romainguy> :p
Aug 27 07:22:12 <Zohan> morning
Aug 27 07:22:22 <Zohan> morning michaelnovakjr mi amor ;)
Aug 27 07:29:48 <f00f-> lollerskates
Aug 27 07:39:59 <gdsx> romainguy: hey
Aug 27 07:40:34 <romainguy> yo
Aug 27 08:12:22 <muthu> re
Aug 27 08:14:50 <johnrw> well that has a happy ending... rip out distro provided Eclipse... unpack new eclipse.gz, get error about old 1.4x jre vm... start eclipse with './eclipse -vm ~/myNewJDK/jre/bin'
Aug 27 08:15:33 <johnrw> not exactly feeling like I set it up correctly... but...
Aug 27 08:15:59 <johnrw> at least it made the Hello Android project.
Aug 27 08:16:26 <tric> why are you using old 1.4x on your system anyway
Aug 27 08:16:55 <johnrw> it came with Knoppix 5.3.1 which is only a couple months old.
Aug 27 08:17:04 <johnrw> so I dunno.
Aug 27 08:17:38 <johnrw> ripping out java is not my area of expertise... in linuxland.
Aug 27 08:19:09 <cliff> i think android needs 1.5 at least
Aug 27 08:19:17 <johnrw> Removing all of the provided by knoppix... eclipse was scary enough... it wanted to start installing stuff, which I said no to... when I told apt-get to remove eclipse...
Aug 27 08:20:53 <tric> i wonder why ppl using knoppix as a full distribution
Aug 27 08:21:26 <johnrw> Well I got 1.6u7 today... but it comes as a an rpm or a archive that makes a directory when i run it... and put a tree of files in it... but does not make any links to /usr/java/default or anything... which is good... means I don't need to be root to do it... but it is mostly unconfigured...
Aug 27 08:22:08 <tric> hmm, i start the emu using -nojni, but logcat prints "CheckJNI is ON"
Aug 27 08:22:16 <johnrw> Actually... I used Knoppix's 0wn installer... Zero Work Needed... which is okay...
Aug 27 08:22:45 <tric> use ubuntu or debian or whatever, both got sun java 1.6 in their reps ;)
Aug 27 08:22:59 <johnrw> it is a quick and easy way to get a debian on a partition...
Aug 27 08:23:11 <tric> hehe, installing your java and eclipse doesnt sound like zero work ;)
Aug 27 08:23:19 <johnrw> Ubuntu.... puleeeeeze....
Aug 27 08:23:44 <johnrw> I'd rather do lfs than that.
Aug 27 08:23:58 <tric> why?
Aug 27 08:24:18 <cliff> too bad google won't release goobuntu
Aug 27 08:26:05 <johnrw> I watched MS turn Windows in to Windows Everywhere.... and but the time it got there... I couldn't stand it. I watched Mozilla become Firefox... and can't stand it's userbase now... so I guess you can say I stay away from anything intended for the masses...
Aug 27 08:26:18 <johnrw> s/but/buy/
Aug 27 08:26:18 <infobot> johnrw meant: I watched MS turn Windows in to Windows Everywhere.... and buy the time it got there... I couldn't stand it. I watched Mozilla become Firefox... and can't stand it's userbase now... so I guess you can say I stay away from anything intended for the masses....
Aug 27 08:26:32 <johnrw> clever!
Aug 27 08:26:42 <johnrw> nice infobot!
Aug 27 08:27:21 <tric> knoppix is intended for the masses ;)
Aug 27 08:27:35 <johnrw> Which is what Ubuntu's stated goal is.
Aug 27 08:29:14 <johnrw> hell, no way is knoppix for the masses... I happpen to like running from iso... with a persistent $home... 2 files... and no repartitioning needed... with grub4dos... maybe 15 files to have a parallel OS...
Aug 27 08:30:39 <tric> but with old packages, even etch does have sun java 1.5
Aug 27 08:32:45 <johnrw> C:\knoppix.iso C:\knoppix.img and C:\boot\grub\linux  and initrd_531.gz C:\GRLDR C:\menu.lst and a modified c:\boot.ini and I am in linux. Nope... 6 files... and boot.ini changes. I thought I would try out Klaus' 0wn installer... and for the most part... it's okay.
Aug 27 08:33:11 <johnrw> Sure... it gets old... but it's bulletproof...
Aug 27 08:33:44 <johnrw> If I screw it up... all I have to do is make a new knoppix.img file...
Aug 27 08:37:34 <johnrw> Since I decided to operate things this way... I have been able to learn alot more about running linux... as I never trash it anymore. Used to be... I would install it.. run it until I screwed it up... and then nothing... back to windows... I never even could figure out what I did wrong... because it was broken. But hey... now I am proly ready for a real distro. In that sense... knoppix could...
Aug 27 08:37:36 <johnrw> ...be said to be for the masses.
Aug 27 08:38:33 <johnrw> Ordinarily... I don't care about which java version I am running...
Aug 27 08:42:32 <johnrw> How to run XP on a VirtualBox vm in Knoppix... http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28591 Things are getting better and better all the time...!
Aug 27 08:42:46 <johnrw> with pictures!
Aug 27 08:42:50 <johnrw> lol
Aug 27 08:44:12 <johnrw> okay... well it is 4:30 am here... I better get a couple hours sleep. G'night everyone.
Aug 27 08:55:24 <johnrw> I couldn't resist... so I tried again... and I got a cell phone on my Desktop... that finally says Hello, Android. G'night. :)
Aug 27 09:15:00 <Zohan> get a real OS before you start working with and emulated OS johnrw ;)
Aug 27 09:15:07 <Zohan> -d
Aug 27 09:15:18 <johnrw> Hey... it's working...
Aug 27 09:15:39 <johnrw> I am playing with it... kinda addicting...
Aug 27 09:15:55 <johnrw> gmail login didn't work though...
Aug 27 09:16:12 <johnrw> do i need a dev account?
Aug 27 09:17:08 <johnrw> maybe just more time...
Aug 27 09:17:32 <muthu> no dev account required
Aug 27 09:17:34 <johnrw> It's cute though...
Aug 27 09:17:41 <muthu> yeah
Aug 27 09:17:57 <johnrw> I don't see any video capturing in it...
Aug 27 09:17:59 <LanceHaig> are we talking a model here? :-)
Aug 27 09:20:17 <johnrw> I don't mind to show this is my first attempt at playing with it.
Aug 27 09:21:48 <johnrw> Thanks for being here and helping me get it running...
Aug 27 09:26:01 <johnrw> For a model... it works pretty good... (I went to google and did a search, tried to use gmail etc)
Aug 27 09:29:14 <johnrw> hmmm, even got into gmail... this is pretty cool.
Aug 27 09:31:08 <Zohan> i dont use gmail :p
Aug 27 09:31:28 <johnrw> tommorow I'll look over the dev stuff... and build the samples etc...
Aug 27 09:31:43 <johnrw> I gotta hit the sack for a few...
Aug 27 09:32:15 <johnrw> no gmail... don't tell me you watched the CEO of Runbox's youtube... lol
Aug 27 09:34:08 <johnrw> It was an anti FISA video... here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skum7lUQNdk
Aug 27 09:34:42 <johnrw> Here the CEO of runbox.com saying to move your email
Aug 27 09:34:44 <johnrw> out of the US. (Imagine... citizens of the USA having to go BACK to Europe for privacy concerns.)
Aug 27 09:34:53 <johnrw> gnight...
Aug 27 09:35:02 <johnrw> again...
Aug 27 09:53:23 <Zohan> yes, thats why most europeans dont use US mail services
Aug 27 09:54:33 <anno^da> Just use GnuPG and everything is fine
Aug 27 10:00:21 <Zohan> you cant gnupg the header
Aug 27 10:00:32 <Zohan> they will still see your social network
Aug 27 10:03:00 <anno^da> Well use an remailer
Aug 27 10:03:34 <anno^da> But I dont trust the german or european email providers much more than the us ones.
Aug 27 10:06:38 <Zohan> true
Aug 27 10:07:16 <Zohan> but the least trustworthy countries are israel, the united states and china imo
Aug 27 10:11:45 <anno^da> Well thats true.
Aug 27 10:13:30 <anno^da> http://labs.mozilla.com/2008/08/introducing-ubiquity/
Aug 27 10:13:35 <anno^da> great mashup prototype
Aug 27 10:25:22 <anno^da> and it works pretty well
Aug 27 10:58:24 <muthu> oh man!
Aug 27 10:59:54 <anno^da> whats up muthu
Aug 27 10:59:56 <anno^da> :)
Aug 27 11:00:45 <muthu> just found out about guido
Aug 27 11:02:33 <anno^da> guido ?
Aug 27 11:03:06 <muthu> Guido van Rossum
Aug 27 11:03:41 <anno^da> ahh you are laerning Python :-)
Aug 27 11:03:45 <anno^da> learning
Aug 27 11:03:51 <muthu> peeking
Aug 27 11:03:59 <muthu> was wondering why goog is heavy on python
Aug 27 11:04:03 <muthu> now got the answer!
Aug 27 11:06:25 <gambler> so what is the answer?
Aug 27 11:06:34 <gambler> did Guido save Sergey Brin's life?
Aug 27 11:07:11 <duey> guido works at google
Aug 27 11:07:27 <duey> but there are python haters at google
Aug 27 11:07:29 <gambler> I know...I thought they were using it pre-guido though.
Aug 27 11:07:35 <duey> i went to a google techtalk a few months ago
Aug 27 11:07:39 <muthu> oh yeah, GAE in python makes sense now
Aug 27 11:07:52 <gambler> whats GAE?
Aug 27 11:07:55 <duey> and they were like "we dont use python because its slow..but dont tell anyone"
Aug 27 11:08:11 <muthu> duey: really?
Aug 27 11:08:13 <gambler> ive never heard of a python hater before
Aug 27 11:08:14 <duey> yeah lol
Aug 27 11:08:28 <muthu> surprising.. given the python love they shower these days
Aug 27 11:08:38 <duey> python is slow though
Aug 27 11:08:55 <muthu> GAE is kinda slow
Aug 27 11:08:57 <duey> and the techtalk was about speed
Aug 27 11:09:11 <duey> i have been using GAE
Aug 27 11:09:14 <duey> its ok
Aug 27 11:09:17 <duey> like the idea
Aug 27 11:09:27 <duey> its a bit unstable
Aug 27 11:10:17 <muthu> duey: is it slow?
Aug 27 11:10:24 <duey> python?
Aug 27 11:10:27 <muthu> GAE
Aug 27 11:10:34 <duey> seems ok
Aug 27 11:11:00 <muthu> seems slow to me
Aug 27 11:12:06 <duey> you have to do things a bit differently
Aug 27 11:12:09 <duey> the db is not featureful
Aug 27 11:12:17 <duey> and has a few quarks
Aug 27 11:12:29 <duey> also I found my scripts would timeout a lot
Aug 27 11:12:53 <muthu> right
Aug 27 11:14:01 <Dougie187> i have a friend who loves python
Aug 27 11:14:16 <Dougie187> but it is semi slow. and can only do so much
Aug 27 11:14:34 <michaelnovakjr> Dougie187: got an iPhone last night
Aug 27 11:14:37 <Dougie187> sometimes for small things its faster then writing a real program for it.
Aug 27 11:14:40 <Dougie187> michaelnovakjr how is it?
Aug 27 11:14:48 <michaelnovakjr> unreal
Aug 27 11:14:56 <Dougie187> unreal crappy? or unreal awesome?
Aug 27 11:15:01 <michaelnovakjr> awesome
Aug 27 11:15:03 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 27 11:15:06 <Dougie187> thats good
Aug 27 11:15:08 <michaelnovakjr> there's some nice apps
Aug 27 11:15:12 <Dougie187> i was looking at the touch diamond earlier.
Aug 27 11:15:25 <michaelnovakjr> has that come out yet?
Aug 27 11:15:28 <Dougie187> tomorrow
Aug 27 11:15:31 <Dougie187> on sprint at least
Aug 27 11:15:38 <gambler> michaelnovakjr, whats so good about it?
Aug 27 11:16:08 <michaelnovakjr> gambler: it is a very easy to use phone
Aug 27 11:16:41 <michaelnovakjr> the biggest thing for me is i don't have to carry an ipod and phone anymore :)
Aug 27 11:17:20 <gambler> hmmm, ive had mp3+phone for awhile...any other sexy features?
Aug 27 11:18:03 <gambler> is it very responsive or only moderately
Aug 27 11:18:34 <michaelnovakjr> the maps feature is nice, there's the movies app where you can search and buy tickets, music recognition application is sweet, the nyc subway app is slick too
Aug 27 11:18:41 <michaelnovakjr> very repsonsive
Aug 27 11:18:57 <gambler> what does the nyc subway app do
Aug 27 11:19:56 <michaelnovakjr> shows you maps, does directions, and let's you get service advisories... it'll also find the closest station to you.
Aug 27 11:21:09 <muthu> michaelnovakjr: traitor
Aug 27 11:21:13 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 27 11:21:19 <muthu> hehe
Aug 27 11:21:41 <gambler>  /join #iphone
Aug 27 11:21:42 <Dougie187> what did you do with your touch michaelnovakjr?
Aug 27 11:21:45 <gambler> oops...sry guys
Aug 27 11:21:47 <michaelnovakjr> i wouldn't get a first android device anyway :)
Aug 27 11:22:02 <michaelnovakjr> just like i didn't get the first gen iphone :)
Aug 27 11:22:14 <michaelnovakjr> Dougie187: going to try to sell it... they are still going for a lot on ebay
Aug 27 11:22:24 <Dougie187> thats cool.
Aug 27 11:23:50 <Dougie187> it would be kinda cool to get a diamond.
Aug 27 11:23:52 <Dougie187> but ionno
Aug 27 11:24:05 <michaelnovakjr> the exchange support on the iphone is slick
Aug 27 11:24:18 <michaelnovakjr> my calendars show up in about 15 seconds
Aug 27 11:25:08 <Dougie187> thats pretty cool
Aug 27 11:26:02 <Dougie187> im glad your happy with your new phone choice.
Aug 27 11:26:10 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Aug 27 11:26:47 <Dougie187> hows att so far?
Aug 27 11:28:19 <michaelnovakjr> pretty good
Aug 27 11:28:23 <michaelnovakjr> i get service at home now
Aug 27 11:28:29 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 27 11:28:29 <michaelnovakjr> 3G is fast
Aug 27 11:28:47 <michaelnovakjr> check out midomi... that is one of my favorites
Aug 27 11:29:08 <michaelnovakjr> its one of those apps that helps you figure out a song
Aug 27 11:29:57 <Dougie187> so you sing to your phone all the time?
Aug 27 11:30:28 <Dougie187> i like how the only decent band they have on their main site (in the 4 pictures) is Queen.
Aug 27 11:30:53 <Dougie187> but they don't really fit in with any of the other ones.
Aug 27 11:31:09 <Dougie187> anyways time to go to school
Aug 27 11:31:10 <Dougie187> bbl
Aug 27 12:04:54 <Dougie187> i have returned.
Aug 27 12:40:27 <Zohan> hard day at school
Aug 27 12:40:37 <Dougie187> no im at school.
Aug 27 12:56:26 <Zohan> irc at school?
Aug 27 12:57:28 <Dougie187> yeah.
Aug 27 12:58:12 <michaelnovakjr_> Dougie187: i do like to sing to my phone
Aug 27 12:58:23 <michaelnovakjr_> i also can put it up to a speaker too :)
Aug 27 12:58:53 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 27 12:59:10 <Dougie187> i think it would look a tad silly to have you walking down the street singing to your phone just to get the name of a song.
Aug 27 12:59:13 <Dougie187> does it work well?
Aug 27 12:59:17 <michaelnovakjr_> :)
Aug 27 12:59:30 <michaelnovakjr_> im amazed at how well it works
Aug 27 12:59:46 <Zohan> you must be a talented singer then
Aug 27 12:59:52 <michaelnovakjr_> :)
Aug 27 13:00:22 <michaelnovakjr_> anyone been rick rolled before?
Aug 27 13:00:47 <Dougie187> ...
Aug 27 13:01:08 <michaelnovakjr_> www.yougotrickrolled.com
Aug 27 13:04:52 <Dougie187> is that what you sing as you walk down the street?
Aug 27 13:06:12 <michaelnovakjr_> yes
Aug 27 13:06:52 <Dougie187> thats ridiculous.. lol
Aug 27 13:06:57 <Dougie187> you should video tape it on your iphone.
Aug 27 13:08:39 <michaelnovakjr_> :)
Aug 27 13:08:46 <michaelnovakjr_> i actually hate that song
Aug 27 13:09:47 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 27 13:09:50 <Dougie187> who doesn't
Aug 27 13:15:22 <Zohan> a website said i (my email) registered and signed the newsletter. my ip was 106.16.154.124 :p
Aug 27 13:23:11 <Dougie187> working on that spyware some more?
Aug 27 13:26:47 <Zohan> no, checking mail and sending dissuasions :p
Aug 27 13:33:01 <Zohan> so im the good guy today, suing spam companies
Aug 27 13:35:19 <Dougie187> until tomorrow? when you become the bad guy again?
Aug 27 13:35:31 <Dougie187> because you take the money from the suits and start a spam company?
Aug 27 13:35:42 <Zohan> nah, i dont spam
Aug 27 13:35:46 <Zohan> i really hate spam
Aug 27 13:36:29 <Zohan> maybe my girlfriend will make a better human out of me :p
Aug 27 13:37:00 <Dougie187> we'll see.
Aug 27 13:37:13 <michaelnovakjr_> Zohan: you don't have a girlfriend
Aug 27 13:37:18 <michaelnovakjr_> cyber relationships don't count :)
Aug 27 13:37:21 <Zohan> i do
Aug 27 13:37:41 <Zohan> she's pretty, although i dont like what she does
Aug 27 13:37:57 <Dougie187> she sues makers of spyware?
Aug 27 13:38:04 <Zohan> animal testing
Aug 27 13:38:07 <Dougie187> hah
Aug 27 13:38:08 <michaelnovakjr_> Dougie187: she sleeps with the laywers
Aug 27 13:38:21 <Dougie187> you don't like animal testing but you make spyware...
Aug 27 13:38:32 <Dougie187> i don't think you have any room to complain about what anyone else does.
Aug 27 13:39:50 <michaelnovakjr_> hahaha
Aug 27 13:39:52 <Zohan> i dont care much about humans, thats true, but i's never threat any animal bad or kill it for any sort of test
Aug 27 13:39:58 <Zohan> *i'd
Aug 27 13:40:14 <Dougie187> haha
Aug 27 13:40:22 <Dougie187> animal rights but not civil rights.
Aug 27 13:40:31 <michaelnovakjr_> thats a first
Aug 27 13:40:35 <Dougie187> that is a rather odd combination.
Aug 27 13:40:36 <michaelnovakjr_> i've never heard that one before
Aug 27 14:07:20 <snadge> joejax ? :P
Aug 27 15:09:25 <jasta> yaw
Aug 27 15:09:26 <jasta> n
Aug 27 15:33:41 <jasta> man, that diggin thing for android is pretty slick actually
Aug 27 15:33:42 <jasta> i do like that
Aug 27 15:34:06 <jasta> i don't think i fully get it though.  how would i just go to a particular artist or something?
Aug 27 15:36:50 <jasta> i do especially like his idea of not really having a player screen at all, but just some controls and a simple overlay for the currently playing song
Aug 27 15:37:26 <jasta> but then in order to make that seem appealing to the user you'd need to have a UI which kind of pushes the album art in the user's face like they do
Aug 27 15:41:42 <Zohan> it depends on the usre
Aug 27 15:42:00 <Zohan> i dont like album arts and all those media stuff. i prefer a very very simple player
Aug 27 15:42:16 <Zohan> playlists and search is what i need
Aug 27 15:44:32 <jasta> oh well, i don't have too much time to play with UI just yet
Aug 27 15:44:46 <jasta> Five's core is a heck of a lot more work than all these other media players have to contend with :)
Aug 27 15:47:48 <gdsx> jasta: did you used to hang out in #perl?
Aug 27 15:48:26 <jasta> maybe ages ago
Aug 27 15:48:32 <jasta> but i don't have any memory of it
Aug 27 15:48:47 <gdsx> ::nod::
Aug 27 15:49:09 <gdsx> jasta: I think I recognize your nick from somewhere
Aug 27 15:49:11 <jasta> you may be thinking of #c ;)
Aug 27 15:49:17 <gdsx> oh, yeah :o)
Aug 27 15:49:22 <jasta> which i frequent every day
Aug 27 15:51:51 <SanMehat> morning
Aug 27 15:52:14 <jasta> hola san
Aug 27 15:52:18 <SanMehat> sup man
Aug 27 15:52:27 <jasta> not much, just chillaxing before work
Aug 27 15:52:49 <jasta> oh yes, i said chillaxing
Aug 27 15:53:06 <SanMehat> you're so 'street'
Aug 27 15:53:15 <SanMehat> :)
Aug 27 15:53:20 <jasta> one of my roommates told me yesterday that he found a new place to live and won't be renewing the lease
Aug 27 15:53:34 <jasta> which otherwise would be fine since he's kind of a creepy loner type dude
Aug 27 15:54:13 <jasta> except that our new lease kicks in on Sep 1, so...he gave me 4 days notice to find a new roommate.
Aug 27 15:54:44 <jasta> and then im going to ireland on the 4th thru 20th.  so i doubt ill be able to find someone in time
Aug 27 15:55:05 <jasta> i'm not too concerned though.  i still have his security deposit ;)
Aug 27 15:56:39 <jasta> hehe, we are going to post the best craig's list ad looking for a new roommate ever
Aug 27 15:56:46 <jasta> our house is still a mess from this party we had a little while ago
Aug 27 15:56:51 <jasta> but we needed to take pictures of course
Aug 27 15:57:31 <jasta> so i went through and photoshopped a bunch of them by crudely "painting" over the mess with the counter-top and wall textures.  and i added little bubbles like "beer cans"
Aug 27 15:57:35 <jasta> "dirty dishes"
Aug 27 15:57:35 <jasta> hehe
Aug 27 15:58:16 <jasta> i aprpeciate what you're thinking: woudln't it be faster just to lcean it for real?  and i say, no, it's a real big mess :)
Aug 27 15:58:40 <SanMehat> i'm actually thinking about how good this coffee is
Aug 27 15:58:55 <Zohan> mine is good
Aug 27 15:59:23 <Zohan> im drinking coffee and doing this chinese qigong balls thing
Aug 27 15:59:30 * Zohan loves work
Aug 27 16:03:14 <gdsx> jasta: you'll need to share the link to this, of course :o)
Aug 27 16:43:27 <anno^da> oh the androidguys image made it to digg
Aug 27 16:49:40 <tethridge> link?
Aug 27 16:49:50 <anno^da> digg.com
Aug 27 16:49:51 <anno^da> :)
Aug 27 16:49:56 <anno^da> second entry
Aug 27 16:50:09 <tethridge> wasn't sure if you were looking only at technology
Aug 27 16:50:37 <muthu> androidguys are making it big
Aug 27 16:51:01 <tethridge> good think they created that fake mockup.  :-)
Aug 27 16:51:26 <anno^da> hmm well after having used the iPhone again I'm really excited about seeing the Android UI in action on a real device.
Aug 27 16:51:34 <tethridge> s/think/thing/  :-)
Aug 27 16:51:52 <tethridge> did you get you an iPhone?
Aug 27 16:52:28 <anno^da> No just testing.
Aug 27 16:52:42 <anno^da> But the UI is damn polished.
Aug 27 16:53:14 <tethridge> it beats android easy right now
Aug 27 16:53:32 <anno^da> Compared to what you can see on the emulator it beats Android easily :D
Aug 27 16:53:51 <tethridge> i'm curious to see android on a phone with modifications
Aug 27 16:54:14 <anno^da> Well I'm looking forward for widgets made by the community
Aug 27 16:54:25 <anno^da> polished looking widgets :)
Aug 27 16:57:07 <tethridge> since everything can be swapped out, I'm waiting for the iPhone interface for android
Aug 27 16:57:21 <tethridge> the good looks of the iPhone with the freedom of android
Aug 27 17:03:18 * mikez5 thinks people that want a phone that looks like an iPhone should go ahead and get an iPhone
Aug 27 17:08:06 <muthu> good one mikez5
Aug 27 17:55:15 <jasta> AttractiveApe: did you get 0.9r1 loaded up yet?
Aug 27 17:56:13 <Dougie187> time to run
Aug 27 17:56:17 <Dougie187> oops.
Aug 27 17:56:19 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 27 17:56:36 <AttractiveApe> jasta: no :(
Aug 27 18:15:43 <jasta> how do i kill a service (from itself)?
Aug 27 18:15:57 <jasta> as in, say that the service is in a state too unstable to remain living
Aug 27 18:16:06 <jasta> should i just fail an assertion?
Aug 27 18:16:25 <jasta> or is there something more graceful i can do?
Aug 27 18:16:42 <jasta> throw IllegalStateException maybe?
Aug 27 18:36:32 <Miek> stopSelf()?
Aug 27 18:38:42 <jasta> that's not the sort of death i'm looking for :)
Aug 27 18:39:04 <jasta> stopSelf() just flags that when all binder connections are gone, the service can gracefully die
Aug 27 18:39:28 <jasta> this is more of a critical assertion failure about the state of the service.  but i don't want to just poof away without giving the user a cahnce to understand that there is a bug in the software somehow
Aug 27 18:40:03 <jasta> i guss ill will just test what happens when you throw an uncaught RuntimeException from a service
Aug 27 18:41:37 <heat> 5yawn
Aug 27 18:42:15 <jasta> what?
Aug 27 18:42:22 <heat> yawning?
Aug 27 18:42:31 <heat> tired :(
Aug 27 18:42:39 <heat> went to bed at 3am :(
Aug 27 18:42:44 <jasta> oh yeah, me too :P
Aug 27 19:48:36 <herriojr> hey, does httpdownloader work with 0.9 yet?
Aug 27 19:48:47 <herriojr> before I got and install it on the image
Aug 27 19:56:59 <jasta_> i hadn't updated it, but i can if youre interested
Aug 27 20:04:20 <jasta_> shouldn't take much work :)
Aug 27 20:08:30 <Megapower> hi all
Aug 27 20:09:01 <Megapower> are there any info on how to get android image to run on NEO 1973 machine?
Aug 27 20:10:33 <romainguy_> yo
Aug 27 20:17:25 <jasta> Megapower: it isn't possible with tremendous hacking.  the binaries are not compatible.
Aug 27 20:17:39 <jasta> if youw ait for android to open source, it will be much less work
Aug 27 20:18:00 <Megapower> but it's impossibel now?
Aug 27 20:18:41 <jasta> it isn't impossible, because the binary format can be emulated
Aug 27 20:18:52 <jasta> but it would be really lame and slow.  and it would take forever to do.
Aug 27 20:19:28 <jasta> earlier i meant it wasn't possible without* tremendous hacking
Aug 27 20:20:50 <Megapower> ok man thanks a lot
Aug 27 20:23:07 <jasta> lol, i just got back from lunch and look what i found:
Aug 27 20:23:11 <jasta> http://picasaweb.google.com/jasta00/Fail/photo#5239295546093849906
Aug 27 20:28:33 <f00f-> lollerskates
Aug 27 20:29:09 <jasta> that was right next to the thai restuarant hehe
Aug 27 20:39:36 <herriojr> so we can't install applications on 0.9 now?
Aug 27 20:40:42 <herriojr> oh nvm, you were talking to Mega
Aug 27 20:40:53 <herriojr> yeah, I'd be happy if you converted httpdownloader
Aug 27 20:41:01 <herriojr> or I'll see if the source is there and convert it myself
Aug 27 20:41:11 <jasta> the source is there, i know that to be tru e:)
Aug 27 20:41:23 <jasta> i will do it, since i have write access hehe
Aug 27 20:41:23 <jasta> hang on
Aug 27 20:52:27 <jasta> hmm, it has some weird bug?
Aug 27 20:53:30 <jasta> i'll fix, 1s
Aug 27 20:59:11 <herriojr> lol ok
Aug 27 21:01:30 <tric> jasta: did you find a way to kill the service? im only doing it from an activity with context.stopService. that works pretty good
Aug 27 21:01:39 <jasta> the emulator is all fucked up, im restarting it
Aug 27 21:01:55 <jasta> tric: i think we were solving different rpoblems :)
Aug 27 21:02:09 <jasta> i haven't verified, but i think throwing a runtime exception should work just fine to convince the JVM to nuke it
Aug 27 21:02:20 <jasta> i don't care if the whole process goes with it
Aug 27 21:03:43 <tric> wont a dialog popup telling the user about the killed service?
Aug 27 21:11:12 <jasta> tric: this makes no sense, i keep getting unknown socket error -1
Aug 27 21:15:15 <jasta> oh right, i need to ask for INTERNET permission now.
Aug 27 21:15:16 <jasta> *lame* ;P
Aug 27 21:15:34 <Cedric2> Users will beg to differ
Aug 27 21:17:18 <jasta> hehe, seriously?  users won't be able to do shit about this :)
Aug 27 21:17:41 <jasta> most every app of substance will need INTERNET permission, and so it will just be white noise for users
Aug 27 21:17:48 <anno^da> oh right, i need to ask for INTERNET permission now.  <- I like this one. I think everyone got this problem in 0.9 :D
Aug 27 21:18:04 <jasta> anno^da: i already ran into it in five, i just forgot about it :)
Aug 27 21:18:09 <jasta> it struck me twice hehe
Aug 27 21:18:25 <herriojr> lol
Aug 27 21:18:58 <anno^da> haha :D
Aug 27 21:19:33 <jasta> herriojr: uploading the new apk (but do remember that you must separately plan to make /data/app writable)
Aug 27 21:19:42 <jasta> on the emulated environment, this isn't a writable location
Aug 27 21:19:49 <Cedric2> They can refuse to install an app that asks for INTERNET permissions but shouldn't
Aug 27 21:20:11 <jasta> Cedric2: what about an app that should use INTERNET, but still shouldn't do <insert evil here>
Aug 27 21:20:14 <jasta> ?
Aug 27 21:20:16 <jasta> :)
Aug 27 21:20:41 <Cedric2> Not following you. In any case, this is a feature that protects users and mildly inconveniences developers, so it's a no brainer
Aug 27 21:21:00 <jasta> oh sure, it's a great idea to put in there
Aug 27 21:21:12 <jasta> but it won't have any significant affect on either camp: users or developers.
Aug 27 21:21:34 <jasta> i was just saying that INTERNET is such a broad permission that "on versus off" is much too imprecise to give the user some idea of why or how much they trust the app
Aug 27 21:22:50 <tric> well, would be nice to be more specific. maybe connecting is ok, but listening isnt. or the other way around.
Aug 27 21:22:51 <Cedric2> So you think we should add more finely grained INTERNET permissions? :)
Aug 27 21:23:29 <anno^da> And the normal end user should decide between a bunch of more specific permissions?
Aug 27 21:23:30 <anno^da> Forget it.
Aug 27 21:23:44 <tric> thats the other problem.
Aug 27 21:23:47 <jasta> Cedric2: no, you can't.  i'm just saying that google did all they could, which is insuficient to help users allocate trust.
Aug 27 21:23:51 <jasta> but that's not your job, so who cares.
Aug 27 21:23:55 <mikez5> I think it is kind of useful, so you can wonder "why does this minesweeper game need to access the internet?"
Aug 27 21:24:01 <Cedric2> "This applications needs INET_SOCKSTREAM, y/n?"
Aug 27 21:24:12 <jasta> mikez5: well, that's a double-edged sword.  what if it has high scores and you refuse to install it because of that?
Aug 27 21:24:13 <Cedric2> What's not my job?
Aug 27 21:24:16 <jasta> like, global high scores
Aug 27 21:24:16 <tric> maybe ask the user on first start for expert or common mode ;)
Aug 27 21:25:00 <jasta> Cedric2: my point is that android's permission system is a gentle nudge in most cases.  trust must be provided by some other means for most applications.
Aug 27 21:25:04 <jasta> and that is true on every platform
Aug 27 21:25:18 <Cedric2> I agree it would be nice to be able to explain why you need these permissions in AndroidManifest.xml
Aug 27 21:25:21 <jasta> the user has to have the good sense to decide how they trust certain resources.
Aug 27 21:25:33 <Cedric2> "This applications needs INTERNET.  Reasons: to access high scores"
Aug 27 21:25:36 <Cedric2> Maybe for 1.1
Aug 27 21:25:44 <tric> well. lets say i permited one app for INTERNET, will there be any dialog or something on connecting via radio?
Aug 27 21:25:48 <jasta> the best feature android has, truly, is that /system is unwritable and so a hard reset is just a button press away
Aug 27 21:25:58 <anno^da> "This applications needs INTERNET.  Reasons: to access high scores"  <- And why should he trust the words of the developer ?
Aug 27 21:26:12 <jasta> yes, anno^da understands my point :)
Aug 27 21:26:34 <Cedric2> The extra reason might help the user decide to install the app or not
Aug 27 21:26:39 <anno^da> Yeah it doesnt make it more trust worthy. It comes from the developer.
Aug 27 21:26:50 <jasta> technology can only provide a general sense of trust.  for example, a user visits an SSL secured page, so the browser trusts the site
Aug 27 21:26:57 <anno^da> The question is whom can I trust as an end user.
Aug 27 21:27:00 <jasta> but what if the site is run by bumbling fools who will lose your credit card data?
Aug 27 21:27:06 <anno^da> thats it jasta
Aug 27 21:27:12 <jasta> technology can't help you figure that out, you just have to think for yourself.
Aug 27 21:27:19 <jasta> as you've always done.  some users are good at that, some aren't.
Aug 27 21:27:24 <anno^da> Well that will always be the problem :-)
Aug 27 21:27:54 <jasta> so, technology usually can only tell you outright when you SHOULDN'T trust something.  never when you should.
Aug 27 21:28:10 <jasta> and even then it's not at all assertive.
Aug 27 21:28:43 <jasta> i'm not arguing any particular point about android though.  providing the INTERNET permission is a great addition so savvy users have one more rule to use internally.
Aug 27 21:29:13 <jasta> the greatest source of trust will likely come from the app store authority.
Aug 27 21:29:35 <jasta> whoever runs that will be expected to provide only content that has some general network of trust
Aug 27 21:29:42 <Cedric2> Yes, you can trust an application but still decide not to install it if it requires INTERNET without explaining why
Aug 27 21:30:07 <jasta> Cedric2: or you can not rtust it even though you can reasonably see why it needs INTERNET.
Aug 27 21:30:13 <herriojr> especially so you don't get hit by those high data charges ;)
Aug 27 21:30:29 <jasta> for example, do i *trust* Google Maps not to spy on me?  did android help me figure that out?
Aug 27 21:30:31 <anno^da> But c'mon you have the same problem in the normal desktop space and it works without big problems.
Aug 27 21:30:42 <jasta> i know it has the technical ability to, but that helps me very little to answer the question of trust.
Aug 27 21:31:01 <jasta> so, it's really important that the app store authority does lots of homework on this type of thing
Aug 27 21:31:05 <anno^da> I dont see why we should protect the apps more than on the deskop side.
Aug 27 21:31:21 <jasta> anno^da: well, we should more because most desktop environments mean Windows and that sucks :)
Aug 27 21:31:27 <jasta> but we shouldn't go much further than that
Aug 27 21:31:33 <jasta> the app store authority, however, should.
Aug 27 21:31:34 <gjs> '
Aug 27 21:31:34 <gjs> '"''
Aug 27 21:31:37 <jasta> just like they all do
Aug 27 21:31:41 <anno^da> Well ok. :)
Aug 27 21:31:48 <anno^da> I dont really care about Windows :)
Aug 27 21:31:51 <jasta> for example, I don't trust any linux app just because it runs on linux
Aug 27 21:31:57 <anno^da> well thats clear
Aug 27 21:31:59 <jasta> but i *DO* trust Debian as a distribution channel to get me those apps
Aug 27 21:32:09 <anno^da> but I can decide on my own whom I trust
Aug 27 21:32:20 <jasta> i have implicit trust that they will not destroy my system or infect me with malware.  this is a conscious choice based on my belief of their ability and good will
Aug 27 21:32:29 <anno^da> I dont need any instance that tells me this is trust worthy and this is not.
Aug 27 21:32:59 <anno^da> But ok a normal end users perhaps needs this.
Aug 27 21:33:11 <jasta> if t-mobile or google think the app store can be this unpoliced, general market place then they are going to have a lot of frustrated users ;0
Aug 27 21:33:31 <jasta> even though we open evangelists would love to see that, it would not be a good idea :)
Aug 27 21:33:42 <anno^da> :)
Aug 27 21:33:44 <jasta> the repository has to be the authority for the people it serves, and trust has to make sense in that regard.
Aug 27 21:34:05 <anno^da> Ok I'd like to see a lot of open repos with open apps.
Aug 27 21:34:12 <jasta> by the way, i can't wait for someone to make an all free distribution of Android :)
Aug 27 21:34:15 <jasta> with a "free" repository app store
Aug 27 21:34:19 <anno^da> :)
Aug 27 21:34:19 <jasta> free as in freedom
Aug 27 21:34:28 <jasta> just like Debian's main pol
Aug 27 21:34:30 <jasta> pool*
Aug 27 21:34:42 <anno^da> Oh well jasta you have to start one ;)
Aug 27 21:34:44 <jasta> i know that this type of app will be taken on by the community
Aug 27 21:35:00 <jasta> i might just, actually.  there was talk early on about this
Aug 27 21:35:08 <jasta> i gotta finish five first though.  i don't leave unfinished projects ;)
Aug 27 21:35:12 <anno^da> :-)
Aug 27 21:35:30 <herriojr> so, in the data image, I install applications at /app, correct?  If so, is there something I need to do to the apk file to get it to show in the menu for 0.9?
Aug 27 21:35:48 <anno^da> I'd be happy to help but not with the coding stuff I'm too much of a noob in that area :)
Aug 27 21:37:07 <jasta> herriojr: no.  if the package installs correctly and offers an icon, it will appear
Aug 27 21:37:26 <herriojr> hmm, are there any 0.9 applications I can test with?
Aug 27 21:37:28 <romainguy_> it doesn't need to have an icon
Aug 27 21:37:32 <herriojr> that someone has already installed
Aug 27 21:37:33 <romainguy_> it needs to have the LAUNCHER category
Aug 27 21:37:41 <herriojr> cd ..
Aug 27 21:38:52 <jasta> romainguy_: i meant offers an icon in the list.  as in, i didn't mean how it gets there.
Aug 27 21:39:12 * anno^da is curious about the next upcoming rumours :-).
Aug 27 21:39:12 <jasta> herriojr: not really.  i updated my solitaire game :\
Aug 27 21:39:36 <jasta> herriojr: i'm working on getting Five up and running again, but i needed to redesign lots of it to be happy with it again :)
Aug 27 21:39:51 <jasta> it was such a mess building up to the ADC submission in april
Aug 27 21:40:41 <herriojr> ah, the AndroidManifest.xml file I was using seems to be not well formed "XML Parsing Error: not well-formed"
Aug 27 21:41:33 <jasta> herriojr: i just uploaded the new HttpDownloader
Aug 27 21:41:37 <jasta> and the updated 0.9r1 source is in SVN
Aug 27 21:44:13 * anno^da is moving now to bed
Aug 27 21:46:48 <tomgibara_> Reading about Apple's iPhone security woes, I notice that the emulated android could be susceptible to being accessed without authentication by simply calling the device and then navigating away from the phone app. I hope that's addressed by requiring authentication before providing access to any other apps.
Aug 27 21:47:25 <f00f-> not sure what you mean tom
Aug 27 21:47:27 <tomgibara_> Given that some apps may launch automatically in response to phone calls, the authors of those apps will need to be aware of that security consideration.
Aug 27 21:47:40 <f00f-> right
Aug 27 21:47:56 <f00f-> yeah heavy authentication during install should be required
Aug 27 21:48:10 <f00f-> i have a feeling such apps will require signatures
Aug 27 21:48:26 <herriojr> ok, thanks jasta
Aug 27 21:48:28 <tomgibara_> f00f-: What I mean is, if you 'lock' the emulator and then call it, you can navigate to all the installed apps after answering the phone
Aug 27 21:48:45 <tomgibara_> So in principle a thief only needs your phone number to unlock your phone
Aug 27 21:48:58 <romainguy_> the actual phones do not allow this
Aug 27 21:49:23 <tomgibara_> romainguy_: But what about applications that launch automatically in response to phone events?
Aug 27 21:49:50 <romainguy_> I don't know about that
Aug 27 21:49:52 <tomgibara_> The authors of those applications need to be educated about the risk thier application might pose.
Aug 27 21:51:53 <tomgibara_> romainguy_: BTW I'm running into a lot of issues (bitmap corruptions) with compositing in ARGB_4444
Aug 27 21:52:05 <tomgibara_> Is that a known bug (or bug collection?)
Aug 27 21:52:28 <romainguy_> what do you mean by bitmap corruption?
Aug 27 21:52:35 <romainguy_> (do you *really* want to use ARGB_4444?)
Aug 27 21:53:52 <tomgibara_> Random noise pixels (possibly occuring in horizontal strips of 8 or 16 pixels) when using PorterDuff Xfermodes
Aug 27 21:54:23 <tomgibara_> Well, I'm not sure I want 4444, but I'm using it to be conservative on memory
Aug 27 21:54:50 <f00f-> tomgibara_: that's just a platform flaw then, if true
Aug 27 21:55:10 <tomgibara_> What I'm trying to do is mask a drawable with a b/w png
Aug 27 21:55:17 <herriojr> jasta: are you able to open your androidmanifest.xml with a text editor?
Aug 27 21:55:23 <herriojr> or even firefox
Aug 27 21:55:29 <jasta> herriojr: uhm, yes.
Aug 27 21:55:36 <herriojr> I'm curious if they are getting corrupted somehow
Aug 27 21:55:43 <tomgibara_> I want to do it efficiently so I'm caching a bitmap and then just repeatedly drawing that bitmap
Aug 27 21:55:47 <jasta> herriojr: what are you talking about?
Aug 27 21:55:50 <herriojr> I tried opening them with firefox and an editor, and both complain
Aug 27 21:55:57 <herriojr> AndroidManifest.xml
Aug 27 21:56:03 <herriojr> inside the apk file
Aug 27 21:56:08 <jasta> i use vim to edit my manifest always
Aug 27 21:56:14 <tomgibara_> I need alpha and colour so my options are only 4444 or 8888
Aug 27 21:56:19 <jasta> oh, the manifest gets compiled into a binary form in the pak
Aug 27 21:56:21 <jasta> apk*
Aug 27 21:56:34 <jasta> if you unpack it from there, it is no longer XML.
Aug 27 21:56:49 <tomgibara_> Since I'm caching several of these images I went with the memory conservative option
Aug 27 21:56:52 <herriojr> ah ok
Aug 27 21:57:55 <romainguy_> tomgibara_: that's not surprising then
Aug 27 21:57:55 <jasta> herriojr: every XML document gets compiled this way.
Aug 27 21:58:12 <romainguy_> tomgibara_: 4444 doesn't give you much of precision, so the auto dithering might do weird looking stuff
Aug 27 21:58:17 <tomgibara_> romainguy_: What's not surpising
Aug 27 21:58:27 <tomgibara_> No, I'm talking about streaks of pure noise
Aug 27 21:58:36 <romainguy_> screenshot?
Aug 27 21:58:40 <tomgibara_> Ok
Aug 27 21:59:00 <tomgibara_> Problem is that it's not entirely reproducible
Aug 27 21:59:10 <romainguy_> but 4444 really sucks :)
Aug 27 21:59:30 <romainguy_> that's why we're not using it for what we originally implemented it for :p
Aug 27 21:59:50 <herriojr> ok, it worked
Aug 27 21:59:52 <tomgibara_> sucks in image quality, or performance?
Aug 27 21:59:55 <herriojr> thanks for converting it :)
Aug 27 22:01:07 <romainguy_> tomgibara_: quality-wise
Aug 27 22:01:19 <romainguy_> it also tends to show a green shift
Aug 27 22:02:29 <herriojr> does anyone have the key mappings for the vogue?  The ones I donwloaded were messed up....Also, the software keyboard seems to have improper key mappings as well
Aug 27 22:02:59 <SanMehat> herriojr: perhaps you want #htc-linux
Aug 27 22:03:27 <herriojr> yeah, I'll ask them, I was just wondering if anyone here had them since there they mainly work on the tilt
Aug 27 22:04:02 <tomgibara_> romainguy_: triggered it first time, it's pretty frequent, more frequent with larger images, almost as though it occurs as a proportion of the pixels processed
Aug 27 22:04:18 <romainguy_> screenshot? :)
Aug 27 22:05:33 <tomgibara_> coming :)
Aug 27 22:06:11 <tomgibara_> Just a simple WIP to try out more of the APIs, the glitch is obvious: http://www.tomgibara.com/images/moseycode/screenshots/4444-compositing-bug.png
Aug 27 22:06:29 <tomgibara_> Two bugs are visible on that screenshot
Aug 27 22:06:32 <romainguy_> ah yes I remember seeing this bug
Aug 27 22:06:38 <romainguy_> do you have a small activity that reproduces the bug?
Aug 27 22:07:14 <tomgibara_> The second bug is that stroking/filling a path leaves large horizontal artifacts
Aug 27 22:07:41 <tomgibara_> Not really - though the bug does get triggered by one particular routine
Aug 27 22:07:42 <anno^da_> nice color :-)
Aug 27 22:08:34 <tomgibara_> If I have some time tomorrow, I'll try and reduce it for filing
Aug 27 22:11:56 <tomgibara_> anno^da_: Are you referring to the pink colour?
Aug 27 22:13:18 <anno^da_> yeah :) But I really like it.
Aug 27 22:13:33 <anno^da_> without the artefacts :)
Aug 27 22:13:51 <SanMehat> i actually love the artifacts :)
Aug 27 22:14:08 <SanMehat> j/k
Aug 27 22:14:38 <romainguy_> gngn stupid HierarchyViewer
Aug 27 22:14:51 <Cedric2> Blame the author
Aug 27 22:14:58 <romainguy_> I will
Aug 27 22:15:10 <Cedric2> I can throw something at him if you'd like
Aug 27 22:15:31 <romainguy_> just don't throw your plastic puzzle pieces
Aug 27 22:15:44 <herriojr> jasta: I'm getting Error: java.io.FileNotFoundException: /data/app/myapp.apk
Aug 27 22:19:34 <jasta> herriojr: i told you, you have to provide for permission on /data
Aug 27 22:19:37 <jasta> specifically /data/app
Aug 27 22:19:45 <jasta> the app runs as an unprivileged user
Aug 27 22:22:10 <herriojr> ok, I don't know exactly what you mean, where do I set the permission?  In the file system itself or somewhere else for android?
Aug 27 22:23:19 <jasta> on the filesystem.
Aug 27 22:23:26 <jasta> needs to be a world writable directory
Aug 27 22:24:59 <herriojr> done, thanks
Aug 27 22:37:13 <chomchom> evenini' all
Aug 27 22:37:26 <chomchom> About this new watermark on the map
Aug 27 22:37:36 <chomchom> down in the bottom left hand corner
Aug 27 22:37:53 <chomchom> is there anywhere in the API to choose the placement of the watermark?
Aug 27 22:38:37 <chomchom> And if not, is it too late to request?
Aug 27 22:38:40 <romainguy_> no and yes
Aug 27 22:38:58 <chomchom> gar
Aug 27 22:39:24 <chomchom> I like the bottom left
Aug 27 22:39:33 <chomchom> but google have the monopoly
Aug 27 22:40:21 <chomchom> I guess I'll have to go away and take photos of planet earth, write an API service for my tile based map system and then work around it.
Aug 27 22:40:46 <chomchom> or switch to the right hand side
Aug 27 22:40:51 <chomchom> not sure yet
Aug 27 22:41:18 <chomchom> I'll sleep on it. nighty guys, thanks romainguy
Aug 27 22:50:41 <jasta> romainguy_: is Cursor#getCount an expensive operation when backed by a SQLiteDatabase?
Aug 27 22:50:49 <jasta> or is it get an accessor?
Aug 27 22:53:03 <anno^da_> has someone also tested Ubiquity today ?
Aug 27 23:08:31 <Dougie187> hows it going jasta?
Aug 27 23:23:13 <gambler> I saw the ubiquity video...how does it work
Aug 27 23:24:49 <gambler> its javascript huh
Aug 27 23:25:20 <Dougie187> http://www.crn.com/software/210201078
Aug 27 23:27:18 <Dougie187> its basically all the features IE8 is going to have..
Aug 27 23:27:23 <Dougie187> or. a good portion of them
Aug 27 23:32:56 <herriojr> does android no longer allow loading of third party jar files?
Aug 27 23:34:51 <Dougie187> has anyone tried it yet?
Aug 27 23:34:52 <Dougie187> this guy said its a bit buggy.
Aug 27 23:34:53 <Dougie187> but ionno i haven't tried it yet
Aug 27 23:38:44 <herriojr> hmm
Aug 27 23:42:59 <Dougie187> gambler: the video looks cool
Aug 27 23:45:14 <gambler> I wonder why they dont put other languages into the browser
Aug 27 23:46:52 <Dougie187> well can't you get it in another language?
Aug 27 23:46:59 <dmoffett> At one time there was a Python plugin.
Aug 27 23:47:08 <jasta> Dougie187: pretty good.  slowly realizing that this new download manager for Five will consume me.
Aug 27 23:47:18 <jasta> the deisng of this thing is going to be unbelievably complicated and huge
Aug 27 23:47:21 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 27 23:47:25 <Dougie187> so your gonna have it done tomorrow?
Aug 27 23:47:54 <jasta> yeah right, i probably wont be done until after i get back from ireland
Aug 27 23:48:06 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 27 23:48:10 <Dougie187> you get to leave soon huh?
Aug 27 23:48:15 <jasta> yup
Aug 27 23:48:28 <jasta> next thu
Aug 27 23:48:31 <Dougie187> nice
Aug 27 23:48:33 <Dougie187> thats exciting
Aug 27 23:48:35 <Dougie187> how long are you gone for?
Aug 27 23:48:35 <gambler> jasta, why dont u generalize the design and turn it into a generic download manager
Aug 27 23:48:52 <jasta> gambler: it's just what i called it, it's much more than just a "download manager"
Aug 27 23:49:24 <jasta> it has to integrate so much insanity both because it is complex and because it needs to fit into the local http server hack to make any of it possible
Aug 27 23:49:27 <gambler> well those features might be useful to other people
Aug 27 23:49:48 <gambler> ah are you using jetty
Aug 27 23:49:51 <jasta> what i'm saying is that the generalization is possible only in the context of someone who needs a more flexible MediaPlayer input stream.
Aug 27 23:50:32 <jasta> gambler: what?  no.  android includes httpcore.
Aug 27 23:50:55 <gambler> ok, im using something else for that stuff...my secret sauce :)
Aug 27 23:51:04 <jasta> for what stuff?
Aug 27 23:51:09 <gambler> network comms
Aug 27 23:51:23 <gambler> im working outside port 80
Aug 27 23:51:32 <jasta> uhm, so?
Aug 27 23:51:45 <gambler> touche, I have no rebuttal
Aug 27 23:52:42 <jasta> by "secret sauce" do you mean Socket? :)
Aug 27 23:53:04 <gambler> well im not writing my own network stack
Aug 27 23:53:21 <jasta> uhm, neither would you be if you used Socket.
Aug 27 23:53:30 <jasta> you'd be writing your own application layer protocol, which is not a network stack
Aug 27 23:53:35 <gambler> right...socket indeed
Aug 27 23:55:06 <Dougie187> anyways.
Aug 27 23:55:13 <Dougie187> how long are you in ireland jasta?
Aug 27 23:55:19 <jasta> until the 20th
Aug 27 23:56:04 <Dougie187> damn, so a muthu vacation?
Aug 27 23:56:19 <Dougie187> i guess its more like 1/2 a muthu vacation
Aug 27 23:56:24 <jasta> i'm driving around the coast of ireland
Aug 27 23:56:37 <jasta> ...with friends ;)
Aug 27 23:57:59 <Dougie187> is your gf going?
Aug 27 23:58:03 <jasta> yup
Aug 27 23:58:07 <Dougie187> thats cool
Aug 27 23:58:10 <Dougie187> other people going too?
Aug 27 23:58:12 <Dougie187> or just her?
Aug 27 23:58:22 <jasta> yeah, 4 people total
Aug 27 23:58:29 <Dougie187> are the other two a couple?
Aug 27 23:58:45 <jasta> no
Aug 27 23:58:50 <jasta> why the 20 questiosn?
Aug 27 23:59:06 <Dougie187> because its a fun game.
Aug 27 23:59:29 <Dougie187> i was just thinking, 2 not a couple with 2 that are a couple make a semi awkward vacation.
Aug 27 23:59:47 <jasta> my friends are only gonna be there for a week
Aug 27 23:59:47 <Dougie187> what that would be fun.
Aug 27 23:59:49 <Dougie187> oh ok
Aug 27 23:59:50 <jasta> and i dont think so either way
Aug 27 23:59:55 <jasta> my friends are all friends with my gf too
Aug 28 00:00:08 <Dougie187> thats good.
Aug 28 00:01:03 <Dougie187> heh do you get geek days on your vacation?
Aug 28 00:01:16 <jasta> no :)
Aug 28 00:01:21 <jasta> i wouldnt want any anyway
Aug 28 00:01:24 <Dougie187> so no coding i take it
Aug 28 00:01:36 <Dougie187> true. its not much of a vacation if you just do work the whole time.
Aug 28 00:07:22 <jasta> my hack is going to be the single largest, most complex component in the whole project
Aug 28 00:07:25 <jasta> sigh
Aug 28 00:07:36 <Dougie187> lol is it worth it then?
Aug 28 00:08:02 <jasta> i have reason to believe that Google is not going to make the change i require otherwise
Aug 28 00:08:04 <Dougie187> suse is a lot better then i remember it was.
Aug 28 00:08:06 <jasta> not for 1.0, and not after.
Aug 28 00:08:10 <Dougie187> thats too bad.
Aug 28 00:08:12 <Dougie187> then it is worth it
Aug 28 00:08:20 <Dougie187> because otherwise you can't use your app period
Aug 28 00:10:23 <romainguy_> jasta: definitely not for 1.0, but why not after?
Aug 28 00:10:33 <romainguy_> what's the feature you need?
Aug 28 00:10:37 <Dougie187> caching
Aug 28 00:10:44 <Dougie187> oh wait.
Aug 28 00:10:47 <Dougie187> no the inputstream thing
Aug 28 00:10:49 <Dougie187> for mediaplayer
Aug 28 00:11:25 <Dougie187> if i am not mistaken.
Aug 28 00:14:18 <jasta> well actually caching would be better :)
Aug 28 00:15:11 <Dougie187> i listen.
Aug 28 00:15:14 <jasta> romainguy_: i need the MediaPlayer to be more flexible, either to support an arbitrary input stream or to support caching the content that it streams.
Aug 28 00:16:31 <jasta> romainguy_: i am hearing that the problem is very deep in libpv, and the engineers responsible for this code don't think it's gonna get changed.
Aug 28 00:17:22 <Dougie187> well after the source is released... couldnt you *attempt* to patch it and submit a patch?
Aug 28 00:17:22 <jasta> Dougie187: really though,t he local http server hack wouldn't be too complex if i didn't have to manage the complexity of a synchronized download manager on top of it with seekable content
Aug 28 00:17:34 <jasta> there are 4 major requirements of this design that all add to its enormous complexity
Aug 28 00:17:57 <jasta> Dougie187: yes, and i probably will have to.  but then i'd have to go through the headache of getting such a massive hackjob written and accepted upstream
Aug 28 00:18:06 <jasta> with no chance of Five being finished by that time
Aug 28 00:18:36 <jasta> it's not all bad, the exercise in complex design will be kind of fun :)
Aug 28 00:18:36 <romainguy_> jasta: ah well, if it's in libpv,...
Aug 28 00:19:06 <jasta> the two most complex pieces aren't even the local http server hack, that just adds to the overall complexity a fair bit
Aug 28 00:19:40 <jasta> they are: managing downloads which are not necessarily connected to a media player (so not being served) and then suddenly mid way through they may need to be up to serve.
Aug 28 00:19:49 <jasta> and also to manage seeking in this stream proxy.  that will be the real killer.
Aug 28 00:20:55 <jasta> and of course, all of the major pieces of this have to communicate back and forth.  so there will need to be a lot of careful thought on synchronization and IPC (much of which will be through files, i think)
Aug 28 00:21:29 <jasta> and with all this complexity, graceful handling errors will be nightmarish all behind the scenes of a totally transparent music player hehe
Aug 28 00:21:34 <jasta> and, of course, adding yet more complexity is the seeming brokenness of MediaPlayer's buffering listener, which neither behaves sensibly or as documented.
Aug 28 00:22:47 <jasta> oh, and not to mention on top of all this, it will be the bottle neck right behind media decoding/playback, so it has to be as efficient as possible.
Aug 28 00:23:10 <jasta> this, by the way, is why i need unit testing to work for complex services ;)
Aug 28 00:23:25 <jasta> i can't even begin to imagine implementing all of this without robust unit testing
Aug 28 00:24:19 <gambler> teach me about good testing
Aug 28 00:24:35 <jasta> uhm, maybe later
Aug 28 00:24:43 <chouman82> hey i am having a little problem with android
Aug 28 00:25:04 <jasta> lucky ;)
Aug 28 00:25:04 <chouman82> here is the error
Aug 28 00:25:12 <chouman82> http://www.pastebin.ca/1186940
Aug 28 00:26:01 <chouman82> i am trying to use the smack api
Aug 28 00:27:05 <chouman82> don't know if any of you guys have see this before
Aug 28 00:27:06 <gambler> my testing I just write a bunch of testing classes that a main method invokes....I dont know if there is a better way...never tried Junit
Aug 28 00:27:39 <gambler> i dont even know what instrumentation is/means
Aug 28 00:29:25 <gambler> google wasnt helpful last time i looked
Aug 28 00:30:06 <chouman82> i am trying to load a third party jar in android
Aug 28 00:30:16 <cliff_> that's not going to work
Aug 28 00:31:57 <chouman82> they ar enot allowing any third party library?
Aug 28 00:31:58 <cliff_> the issue is that android doesn't use java bytecode
Aug 28 00:32:07 <herriojr> why won't third party jars work?
Aug 28 00:32:42 <gambler> cliff ^^ u need to recompile them
Aug 28 00:32:52 <cliff_> right, i didn't know whether he meant without recompilation
Aug 28 00:33:30 <herriojr> so, if it were included in the apk file, it's fine?
Aug 28 00:34:58 <SanMehat> gambler: re:
Aug 28 00:34:58 <gambler> hi san
Aug 28 00:35:20 <SanMehat> whats shaking?
Aug 28 00:35:26 <chouman82> this used to work in m5 but not in version 0.9... did they just take that out now?
Aug 28 00:36:04 <chouman82> and so if i include the source in the apk then it'll be fine?
Aug 28 00:37:12 <gambler> im re-learning how to deal with concurrency at the moment.
Aug 28 00:38:38 <xavd> the plugin and the new ant script generated by activitycreator should support external jars
Aug 28 00:38:38 <gambler> I havent written much code lately
Aug 28 00:38:41 <gambler> in relative terms...
Aug 28 00:38:57 <xavd> but if you have issue installing the file, check the logcat output for erorrs
Aug 28 00:40:32 <SanMehat> you make it sound like the last thing you coded on was a PDP/11... :)
Aug 28 00:40:33 <gambler> haha no the gambling took over my life for awhile...I coded a successful commercial app as recently as 5 years ago
Aug 28 00:40:48 <chouman82> the logcat output errors are here
Aug 28 00:40:50 <chouman82> http://www.pastebin.ca/1186940
Aug 28 00:42:34 <SanMehat> i haven't played poker in sooo long
Aug 28 00:42:35 <gambler> ive actually got this email today from a reporter here who wants me to go on tv and talk about my experience
Aug 28 00:42:35 <gambler> thats not really my thing tho
Aug 28 00:43:37 <gambler> SanMehat, this is the latest thing online: http://code.google.com/p/openholdembot/
Aug 28 00:44:41 <gambler> one of the main reasons I stopped playing
Aug 28 00:46:32 <SanMehat> woah
Aug 28 00:46:32 <gambler> Ive talked to some people who have built scary technology around that
Aug 28 00:49:56 <gambler> that framework works really good too. Ive written a little bit of code for research and its very solid.
Aug 28 00:49:56 <gambler> w.r.t. to screen scraping at least
Aug 28 00:49:56 <SanMehat> this thing is crazy
Aug 28 00:49:57 <SanMehat> maybe i'll avoid online play
Aug 28 00:51:30 <gambler> yah...the sites secretly love the bots too
Aug 28 00:51:30 <SanMehat> no doubt
Aug 28 00:59:26 <SanMehat> sure is quiet in here... jasta must be gone :)
Aug 28 01:05:27 <chouman82> anyone know much about the verifier in android?
Aug 28 02:02:46 <tac> hi
Aug 28 02:03:54 <tac> anyone here, i need a little help
Aug 28 02:36:18 <tac> ?
Aug 28 02:38:12 <zhobbs> jasta: you got any good links for getting android on HTC touch
Aug 28 02:39:29 <zhobbs> I'm going to add a hardware database type wiki to helloandroid.com....cause once the source comes out it'd be nice to have a central place to see what devices work, etc
Aug 28 02:39:42 <tac> i finally got android hello world working w/ eclipse,,,
Aug 28 02:47:35 <jasta> zhobbs: yes, see the link from android-random.googlecode.com
Aug 28 02:56:25 <zhobbs> jasta: thanks
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Aug 28 02:59:56 2008