**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Sep 24 02:59:57 2008
Sep 24 03:06:12 <jasta> this fix for allowing cusotm parcelables in Eclipse is so fucking hackish
Sep 24 03:06:13 <jasta> ugh
Sep 24 03:06:18 <jasta> i have no idea how they expect me to make this work
Sep 24 03:08:03 <Elijah> Are you guys happy that Android has officially launched?
Sep 24 03:08:14 <Elijah> I am but I am not a developer
Sep 24 03:08:15 <jasta> it hasn't officially launched :)
Sep 24 03:08:34 <jasta> not in my book anyway.  one big deliverable is still missing ;)
Sep 24 03:09:02 <Elijah> Are you excited to get an actual phone in your hands?
Sep 24 03:09:28 <Elijah> I am but don't yet know if I will jump ship from Sprint to Tmobile, especially since Sprint is not far behind!
Sep 24 03:09:28 <jasta> yes and no
Sep 24 03:09:59 <jasta> sort of a mixed blessing being tied to the worst carrier in the US if you ask me
Sep 24 03:10:16 <jasta> but from a dev perspective, yes i'd like to have a device very badly :)
Sep 24 03:10:22 <jasta> i might even carry two devices for a short while
Sep 24 03:10:55 <summatusmentis> Elijah: I'm not jumping ship, but I'm definitely getting one when it comes to Sprint
Sep 24 03:21:25 <chuck> Just wondering, what's so "open" about Google Android if no one even has the operating system?
Sep 24 03:21:48 <jasta> chuck: please don't troll here.
Sep 24 03:22:16 <chuck> jasta: I'm sorry, I'm really not trying to troll, I'm just wondering what Google means by "open"
Sep 24 03:22:52 <gambler> chuck, they are going to open source it by the end of the year
Sep 24 03:22:52 <jasta> Google means a lot of things by it, principally that Android will be open source.
Sep 24 03:23:27 <chuck> gambler: Oh, awesome
Sep 24 03:23:28 <jasta> But it also means that they intend to foster open communication with the larger dev community, to allow unfiltered access to the stack, etc.
Sep 24 03:23:50 <jasta> And also to engineer a stack in the first place which attempts to avoid immutable components.
Sep 24 03:24:47 * chuck is really hoping that someone gets Android running on the iPhone, or AT&T comes out with an Android phone, which doesn't seem likely, as they're not in the open handset alliance
Sep 24 03:25:05 <jasta> well, the former is just insane.
Sep 24 03:25:16 <jasta> the latter isn't gonna happen for quite some time, if it happens at all
Sep 24 03:25:45 <chuck> well, people have gotten a linux bootloader running on the phone
Sep 24 03:25:57 <jasta> chuck: i know what people have done, i have followed that project.
Sep 24 03:26:07 <jasta> and they are a long, long ways away from loading something like Android.
Sep 24 03:26:22 <jasta> so long in fact, that i'm certain the iphone will be old news by the time they ever make it work :)
Sep 24 03:26:37 <chuck> do you think there are going to be unlocked android devices anytime soon?
Sep 24 03:26:52 <muthu_> yeah will happen
Sep 24 03:27:10 <muthu_> yo
Sep 24 03:27:15 <muthu_> feedback on 1.0
Sep 24 03:27:18 <muthu_> ?
Sep 24 03:27:19 <jasta> chuck: i really don't know, but judging from the communities tenacity so far i would imagine that there will be lots of people trying at least.
Sep 24 03:27:25 <jasta> muthu_: it's hardly different from 0.9r1.
Sep 24 03:27:30 <muthu_> hmm
Sep 24 03:27:43 <muthu_> not surprising
Sep 24 03:27:47 <jasta> they allegedly fixed my bug about custom parcelables in the Eclipse plugin tho, but i swear they have lied.
Sep 24 03:27:53 <jasta> i can't make their fix work at all
Sep 24 03:27:54 <muthu_> hehe
Sep 24 03:28:01 <jasta> it's tossing up all these insane errors i can't understand
Sep 24 03:28:18 <muthu_> jasta, can you pass a cursor around in Intent extras?
Sep 24 03:28:49 <muthu_> have a cursor open in the previous activity, want to reuse that in next activity
Sep 24 03:28:51 <jasta> you can only pass parcelable objects in an intents extra.
Sep 24 03:29:04 <muthu_> any ideas?
Sep 24 03:29:29 <jasta> you can't.  you can try serializing all the inforamtion it contains though that will not be any better than just requerying.
Sep 24 03:29:47 <muthu_> hmm.. then prolly requery is best
Sep 24 03:30:32 <jasta> you could also make it static, but then your application suffers from concrete dependance on itself (and cannot be replaced by other intent filters)
Sep 24 03:30:39 <muthu_> hate to use a viewflipper, becoz then kiss goes for a toss
Sep 24 03:30:55 <muthu_> hate statics
Sep 24 03:31:09 <muthu_> hate globals
Sep 24 03:31:10 <jasta> yes i wouldnt recommend that approach
Sep 24 03:31:25 <muthu_> cool.. requery should be just fine
Sep 24 03:31:30 <jasta> it does bother me that you have to be wasteful calling sub activities, though
Sep 24 03:31:46 <muthu_> its like the master/detail design
Sep 24 03:31:53 <muthu_> you have a list of results in the previous activity
Sep 24 03:32:09 <muthu_> then the result detail, when you click on one of the results in the next activity
Sep 24 03:32:16 <muthu_> so we are looking at the same cursor/db
Sep 24 03:32:25 <jasta> well, you shouldnt be.
Sep 24 03:32:31 <jasta> dont ever query data that you dont intend to use.
Sep 24 03:32:47 <jasta> so the master activity should not query the "detail", merely the summary of the detail that it must display.
Sep 24 03:32:47 <muthu_> yeah
Sep 24 03:32:52 <muthu_> right
Sep 24 03:32:58 <jasta> so there would be no information to pass along, since it doesnt have enough to pass.
Sep 24 03:33:07 <muthu_> but there's enough group info to pass along
Sep 24 03:33:13 <muthu_> the results are grouped
Sep 24 03:33:24 <muthu_> so you have group 1..n and each group has results 1..n
Sep 24 03:33:37 <jasta> yes, there is an optimization possibility there for normal applications.  not an android app, though :)
Sep 24 03:33:43 <muthu_> yup
Sep 24 03:33:58 <muthu_> the overhead of cursor passing, might be a lot more than requery
Sep 24 03:34:02 <jasta> *argh*, i'm so frustrated by this aidl thing
Sep 24 03:34:06 <jasta> i have to give up.  i dont get it.
Sep 24 03:34:10 <illuminum> who is this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FJHYqE0RDg he's awesome
Sep 24 03:34:51 <muthu_> that's a pretty old one
Sep 24 03:35:10 <muthu_> check out his blog: http://too.blogspot.com
Sep 24 03:37:25 <illuminum> who is going to port quake 3 arena to android
Sep 24 03:37:58 <erus`> its been ported to java?
Sep 24 03:38:04 <erus`> *re-written
Sep 24 03:38:33 <illuminum> shrug i dunno i'm a newb to devel
Sep 24 03:38:50 <jasta> lol
Sep 24 03:40:28 * jasta loses it trying to get his project to build under 1.0
Sep 24 03:40:39 <jasta> my old hack doesn't even seem to work
Sep 24 03:40:46 <jasta> now it's bitching about R.java and shit
Sep 24 03:41:33 <jasta> ok that was me just being stupid.  but still, ugh, crappy aidl :)
Sep 24 03:44:47 <erus`> jasta
Sep 24 03:44:51 <erus`> do you sleep?
Sep 24 03:45:05 <jasta> yes, lots.
Sep 24 03:45:35 <erus`> not as much as me! *goes to sleep*
Sep 24 03:46:06 <umdk1d3> jasta: remind me again where your from?
Sep 24 03:46:32 <muthu_> jasta, sleeps at work.. hehe
Sep 24 03:46:40 <umdk1d3> hah
Sep 24 03:46:46 <jasta> umdk1d3: Seattle, so i'm PST.
Sep 24 03:46:49 <jasta> Google time, woo ;)
Sep 24 03:46:54 <umdk1d3> lol nice  :)
Sep 24 03:47:41 <jasta> this is interesting.  in 1.0, for some reason Five doesn't properly save/recover album or artist artwork
Sep 24 03:47:45 * jasta investigates
Sep 24 03:48:07 <jasta> oh, right, no sd card ;)
Sep 24 03:48:52 <muthu_> 5 works with amazonmp3?
Sep 24 03:49:06 <jasta> anything works with amazon mp3.  it just dumps well formatted mp3 files to the sd card
Sep 24 03:49:25 <jasta> i would eventually like to tinker further to have Five sync back purchased mp3s to your home PC :)
Sep 24 03:49:34 <jasta> nice little value add there
Sep 24 03:49:37 <muthu_> yuppie
Sep 24 03:51:49 <_avatar> yeah, nice
Sep 24 03:52:05 <jasta> T-Mobile is going to kill me ;)
Sep 24 03:52:26 <jasta> i'm sure they want me to force Five to work only over Wi-Fi.  lol.
Sep 24 03:52:40 <muthu_> why would they force?
Sep 24 03:52:42 <_avatar> why do you say that?
Sep 24 03:52:47 <jasta> AT&T's 3G network is happy to let me waste bandwidth all day long.  T-Mobile better get in line.
Sep 24 03:53:07 <muthu_> jasta, they can shut you down
Sep 24 03:53:13 <jasta> muthu_: check the fine print: T-Mobile will throttle or terminate you if you exceed 1GB of usage per month
Sep 24 03:53:36 <muthu_> rite
Sep 24 03:53:38 <jasta> muthu_: well, then i'll take my unlocked phone back to AT&T ;P
Sep 24 03:53:47 <muthu_> haha
Sep 24 03:53:53 <muthu_> android rocks!
Sep 24 03:54:06 <jasta> i once used 5GB on AT&T 3G in a month and they didnt say a word
Sep 24 03:54:11 <muthu_> i'm planning to buy an unlocked and use it here
Sep 24 03:54:20 <muthu_> not sure if it work with existing gsm providers
Sep 24 03:54:25 <jasta> i tethered my phone (which you weren't allowed to do without paying for it, of course), and did a debian net install and some other junk
Sep 24 03:54:42 <jasta> i love AT&T, though.  i think theyre a great carrier
Sep 24 03:54:54 <jasta> t-mobile, otoh, is a pile of poop
Sep 24 03:55:51 <muthu_> wow, first time jad worked without errors
Sep 24 03:56:33 <_avatar> jasta: couldn't you add a feature to five that keeps track of how many bits have been transferred OTA, and not exceed some user defined percentage of the bandwidth cap?
Sep 24 03:57:22 <jasta> _avatar: yeah, i probably will do something like that eventually
Sep 24 03:57:29 <jasta> let the user pick a usage profile and have five stick to it
Sep 24 03:59:28 <muthu_> starting new emu without wipe
Sep 24 04:03:18 <dcode> is it possible to use the AMD64 sun-java6-jdk, AMD64 Eclipse 3.4, the Android ADT, and the x86 Android SDK?
Sep 24 04:03:29 <dcode> Eclipse is not happy when I try to tell it where the SDK is
Sep 24 04:03:56 <dcode> and then, I couldn't even run the emulator from the SDK w/o running it as root
Sep 24 04:04:18 <muthu_> did the timezone emu settings change?
Sep 24 04:05:41 <dcode> ah....nevermind....permissions
Sep 24 04:05:52 <dcode> I unzipped the SDK as root into /opt/android
Sep 24 04:06:00 <dcode> my user didn't have read perms
Sep 24 04:06:14 <summatusmentis> is it bad that I downloaded the SDK only for the emulator?
Sep 24 04:06:39 <chuck> More interestingly, buyers would be able to have access to a "contract free" G1 (with a price point of $399), and could unlock the device with T-Mobile's blessing after 90 days.
Sep 24 04:06:41 <chuck> ugh
Sep 24 04:06:53 <chuck> so, yes, an unlocked google android phone will be available, but damn pricey
Sep 24 04:07:04 <chuck> anyone know how much T-Mobile plans are monthy?
Sep 24 04:07:56 <summatusmentis> chuck: I think $30 for 200 minutes, individual
Sep 24 04:08:05 <summatusmentis> and it goes up from there
Sep 24 04:08:15 <summatusmentis> I looked a while back
Sep 24 04:08:56 <chuck> summatusmentis: ah, so that means i could get an unlocked T-Mobile G1 for the low low price of $490 plus certain taxes
Sep 24 04:09:06 <muthu_>                 String imei = TelephonyManager.getDefault().getDeviceId();
Sep 24 04:09:06 <chuck> hopefully someone puts one on ebay that's a little cheaper
Sep 24 04:09:27 <summatusmentis> chuck: is that unfounded? aren't most unsubsidized smartphones ~$500?
Sep 24 04:09:29 <muthu_> how to get a unique device id?
Sep 24 04:10:15 <chuck> summatusmentis: well, actually, yeah, most of them are around there without contracts now that you make me think of it
Sep 24 04:10:41 <summatusmentis> now, most have exchange support, so if you need that...
Sep 24 04:10:49 <chuck> and my iphone was purchased for $400, and if I jailbreak, unlock, and activate it, it should be worth $300-400
Sep 24 04:11:23 * chuck doesn't need exchange :P just IMAP (and i use google apps which probably integrates nicely with google's mobile OS :P)
Sep 24 04:12:03 <muthu_>             if (mFilterQueryProvider != null)
Sep 24 04:12:04 <muthu_>             {
Sep 24 04:12:04 <muthu_>                 return mFilterQueryProvider.runQuery(constraint);
Sep 24 04:12:04 <muthu_>             }
Sep 24 04:12:08 <muthu_> that's broken too..
Sep 24 04:12:11 <summatusmentis> chuck: google apps integrates very nicely, just sayin'
Sep 24 04:13:56 <chuck> summatusmentis: do you know if, when android is open sourced at the end of this year-ish, if it will include anything in the way of x86 support for processors?
Sep 24 04:14:24 <summatusmentis> I have no idea, but assuming the kernel is just plain linux, I'd say it's feasible
Sep 24 04:14:39 <jasta> chuck: android is not really particular to a processor any more than linux and its device drivers are.
Sep 24 04:14:43 * chuck thinks it would be cool to have android on his Eee PC :P
Sep 24 04:14:48 <summatusmentis> chuck: I'm not an Android dev, just an avid fan
Sep 24 04:15:06 <jasta> chuck: the linux kernel is pretty standard.  not too much has been modified.
Sep 24 04:15:21 <jasta> in fact, the only reason you cant have it on your eee pc now is because the android stack itself is closed source (and so you cant build it for your own target)
Sep 24 04:15:26 <jasta> that will change when the source is out, for sure.
Sep 24 04:15:43 <jasta> and the dalvik format (and apk formats, of course) are cross platform, so apks can happily install onto any arch
Sep 24 04:16:00 <jasta> i imagine cross compilation will even be quite easy
Sep 24 04:16:20 <chuck> yeah, the only thing i can see not working are things like wireless, even that would get working with madwifi or something like that for android if it's possible to install that
Sep 24 04:16:21 <jasta> assuming google's build system is not an untamable monster
Sep 24 04:16:31 <chuck> jasta: has anyone written a terminal yet?
Sep 24 04:17:25 <jasta> kind of.  google has, but it it not what i'd call a terminal
Sep 24 04:17:42 <chuck> what do you mean?
Sep 24 04:17:52 <jasta> a proper terminal on linux requires allocation of a pty, which can only be done with ioctl which is not available in Java
Sep 24 04:17:56 <jasta> so you'd need a native layer to punch through to
Sep 24 04:18:07 <jasta> feasible, it just hasn't been done and couldn't be distributed as a standard apk
Sep 24 04:18:17 <summatusmentis> do we not have access to any kernel level anything?
Sep 24 04:18:19 * muthu_ nice.. 3 errors later.. v1.0 rox
Sep 24 04:18:34 <chuck> jasta: oh, okay, gotcha
Sep 24 04:18:38 <umdk1d3> did they remove all the syncronizatino stuff from 1.0?
Sep 24 04:18:43 <jasta> summatusmentis: not once you're in the upper layers of the android stack, no.
Sep 24 04:19:11 <summatusmentis> jasta: hmm.. could one write a java installer to install kernel modules, which would then allow access to ioctl, etc. ?
Sep 24 04:19:17 <summatusmentis> or some such thing
Sep 24 04:19:29 <summatusmentis> and is java the only language?
Sep 24 04:19:32 <jasta> summatusmentis: don't assume that google's choice of Linux and other open source technologies translates to unfettered flexibility for app developers.  that was merely a sensible choice for underlying OS.
Sep 24 04:19:42 <jasta> summatusmentis: well, that is yet to be seen.  i'm betting a firm no.
Sep 24 04:19:51 <summatusmentis> jasta: that's sort of depressing
Sep 24 04:19:58 <summatusmentis> I want kernel access
Sep 24 04:19:59 <summatusmentis> !!
Sep 24 04:20:01 <jasta> first of all, the kernel won't be built with moudlar support (that would be stupid and wasteful)
Sep 24 04:20:16 <jasta> second, all of this magic is likely to be hardcoded into the /system image, which is immutable normally.
Sep 24 04:20:20 <jasta> you'd definitely have to reflash
Sep 24 04:20:40 <jasta> which may or may not be an option to you, depending largely on what manufacturers are willing to provide and what level of standardization google can negotiate there
Sep 24 04:20:42 <gambler> i thought dalvik was a register machine...its cross platform?
Sep 24 04:20:42 <swetland_> 1. the kernel is built with module support
Sep 24 04:21:04 <jasta> swetland: it isn't currently.
Sep 24 04:21:11 <jasta> or at least wasn't when i looked at M5.
Sep 24 04:21:12 <swetland> the *emulator* kernel may not be
Sep 24 04:21:20 <swetland> the kernel on the g1 hardware most certainly is
Sep 24 04:21:30 <jasta> really, even the production version?
Sep 24 04:21:38 <swetland> yes, even the production version
Sep 24 04:21:49 <swetland> the wifi driver is rather large. we load it on demand.
Sep 24 04:21:55 <jasta> interesting.
Sep 24 04:22:15 <swetland> everything else is compiled in (in general, for embedded devices that does make sense)
Sep 24 04:22:38 <swetland> of course if you start doing usb otg/host, or other hot-pluggable stuff, modules potentially become interesting again
Sep 24 04:23:31 <summatusmentis> jasta, swetland: I'm thinking about OpenAFS access, which is currently only do-able through kernel modules due to licensing
Sep 24 04:23:49 <jasta> well either way, i assume my comment about /system is still true, which means none of this matters at the high level of APK capabilities
Sep 24 04:23:58 <swetland> tweakability of the kernel and system partition will vary depending on oem/carrier choices
Sep 24 04:24:36 <swetland> we'll see some devices that really are wide open, I expect, and some that are a little more traditional in that the system image is not designed to be trivially replaced by the enduser
Sep 24 04:24:37 <f00f-> muthu_: IMEI is unique
Sep 24 04:24:40 <jasta> swetland: of course that would be Google's position, but none of us will be surprised to find all carriers are making the same decision.  at least in the US>
Sep 24 04:24:47 <f00f-> muthu_: globally unique
Sep 24 04:24:58 <muthu_> f00f-, but no way to get it now
Sep 24 04:25:13 <summatusmentis> jasta: there is the hackability factor
Sep 24 04:25:32 <jasta> summatusmentis: which up until this point, US carriers have wanted no part of.  i dont see that changing.
Sep 24 04:25:34 <summatusmentis> people have been flashing win mo 6.1 to their old 6.0 or even 5.0 devices for a while now
Sep 24 04:26:06 <jasta> summatusmentis: that is because Microsoft has permitted it.
Sep 24 04:26:09 <jasta> explicitly
Sep 24 04:26:26 <jasta> that doesn't mean you'd go around building your own custom flash image for a win mo device to tweak it around
Sep 24 04:26:30 <jasta> that would be unfathomably difficult
Sep 24 04:26:42 <summatusmentis> you can, people do
Sep 24 04:26:43 <swetland> getting carriers to sign up for totally open app deployment is exciting. end user replacable OS probably more so.  but we're headed in a direction of more openness and flexibility in the long run, I think
Sep 24 04:26:44 <jasta> you've got none of the build tools necessary, and android might actually not be that different.
Sep 24 04:27:16 <summatusmentis> jasta: if we've got the stack source, someone will find a way to flash it
Sep 24 04:27:22 <jasta> swetland: exciting, yes.  soon, no. ;)
Sep 24 04:27:44 <jasta> summatusmentis: again, those two have nothing to do with each other.  building the android binaries that google provides has nothing to do with putting them onto specific hardware.
Sep 24 04:28:22 <jasta> the image format, for example, could be completely proprietary with none of the tools being written or provided by google.
Sep 24 04:28:33 <swetland> nope
Sep 24 04:28:33 <summatusmentis> jasta: I'm aware, but if you can build the binaries, there _will_ be a way found to hack it onto a device
Sep 24 04:28:50 <muthu_> -timezone Asia/Calcutta doesn't work
Sep 24 04:29:14 <summatusmentis> jasta: people hack linux onto old PDAs/phones all the time
Sep 24 04:29:24 <jasta> summatusmentis: of course it will be, but by that argument anything is possible.  it's all down to the amount of work and how much fun it is to do.
Sep 24 04:29:35 <jasta> which the carriers and manufacturers have a ton more control over than you'd think.
Sep 24 04:29:53 <jasta> tell you what, summatusmentis, let's just wait and see.
Sep 24 04:29:56 <jasta> it won't be long now, anyway.
Sep 24 04:30:19 <summatusmentis> jasta: I'm waiting till sprint gets one anyway :) But yeah, regardless, I'm excited :-P
Sep 24 04:30:35 <Adamant> jasta: if people will expend the effort they do jailbreaking the iThings, I wouldn't bet strongly against it not happening.
Sep 24 04:30:49 <jasta> Adamant: i wouldn't either, but that isn't really my point.
Sep 24 04:30:55 <Adamant> ah.
Sep 24 04:31:20 <jasta> Adamant: i don't consider the iphone hacks fun or exciting because they are in constant opposition to what Apple wants you to do with the device.  so they will forever make it difficult and lame to do.
Sep 24 04:31:43 <swetland> many people find reverse engineering incredibly fun and rewarding
Sep 24 04:31:46 <summatusmentis> to me, that's part of what makes it fun :)
Sep 24 04:31:50 <Adamant> jasta: they're fun if you like breaking embedded security
Sep 24 04:31:50 <jasta> everyone assumes carriers and manufacturers who "support" Android will have this radically different position and will encourage you to abuse their network and devices.  i doubt very much that they will let you do this.
Sep 24 04:31:56 <Adamant> if not, then no.
Sep 24 04:32:02 <jasta> swetland: ...you don't say? *grin*
Sep 24 04:32:39 <swetland> the *important* security on the platform is about protecting users from the apps they install (and apps from each other)
Sep 24 04:32:40 <muthu_> selecting a ringtone, contacts app crashes
Sep 24 04:32:43 <jasta> Adamant: otoh, i find custom linux distros on Linksys WRT devices to be loads of fun.  because Linksys isn't constnatly trying to defeat you.
Sep 24 04:32:59 <swetland> not about protecting the hardware (which is in the hands of the user, with physical access) from the enduser, so much
Sep 24 04:33:20 <Adamant> swetland: I agree, but the carriers probably have a different opinion
Sep 24 04:33:38 <aliases123> "we need protection from ourselves"
Sep 24 04:33:41 <aliases123> steve jobs.
Sep 24 04:33:46 <swetland> *personally*, I think if you have a nice recovery bootloader and a simple way to restore the hardware, it's silly to get all restrictive about what the user can install system wise
Sep 24 04:33:56 <jasta> swetland: Adamant is right.  your attitude is unlikely to be their attitude, and that is my point.
Sep 24 04:34:02 <swetland> s/hardware/default image/
Sep 24 04:34:02 <infobot> swetland meant: *personally*, I think if you have a nice recovery bootloader and a simple way to restore the default image, it's silly to get all restrictive about what the user can install system wise
Sep 24 04:34:06 <jasta> swetland: silly?  really?  what about getting a free lunch with tethering, for example?
Sep 24 04:34:17 <Adamant> their incentives to ensure security are less about the user and more about their balance sheet
Sep 24 04:34:22 <swetland> handle it at the network level
Sep 24 04:34:30 <swetland> it's silly to handle it at the hardware level
Sep 24 04:34:36 <Adamant> jasta: if you're willing to pay for the extra data, tethering should be allowed.
Sep 24 04:34:39 <aliases123> how is it a free lunch
Sep 24 04:34:40 <jasta> silly doesn't mean it won't be their target.
Sep 24 04:34:42 <swetland> nothing stops me from putting that SIM in another device without whatever restrictions
Sep 24 04:34:53 <jasta> Adamant: in the US, data is typically "unlimited"
Sep 24 04:34:59 <jasta> so you wouldn't pay extra.
Sep 24 04:35:03 <Adamant> uh.
Sep 24 04:35:10 <Adamant> most of them are locked to 5G
Sep 24 04:35:14 <aliases123> this is all about simple logic. said phone connect to the network. said laptop connects to phone. there is no problem
Sep 24 04:35:31 <chuck> you can also just tether and not tell them, and everyone is happy
Sep 24 04:35:35 <jasta> Adamant: yes, but the point is that all of the carriers want to sell you separate laptop cards which cost $40-60/mo.
Sep 24 04:35:36 <Adamant> the G1 is locked to 1G at regular speeds then is speed throttled
Sep 24 04:35:44 <jasta> even though your phone is technically capable of providing the same service.
Sep 24 04:35:46 <f00f-> chuck that is the policy t-mobile will adopt
Sep 24 04:35:49 <jasta> so it's still a free lunch to hack your device to do tethering
Sep 24 04:35:58 <chuck> (kind of like i do with my iphone, though i hear it's strictly forbidden, and i may get my plan cancelled or something like that >_>)
Sep 24 04:36:02 <Adamant> ah.
Sep 24 04:36:08 <swetland> it makes far more sense for the carrier to handle network usage by filtering/throttling/billing than trying to control it on the device side, really. or by trying to upsell you to a fancier plan.
Sep 24 04:36:10 <f00f-> i doubt the G1 is locked adamant, it's a general network policy regardless of device
Sep 24 04:36:27 <Adamant> f00f-: well, that's what I meant
Sep 24 04:36:27 <f00f-> you cannot control it on the device side anyway
Sep 24 04:36:34 <aliases123> damn right.
Sep 24 04:36:38 <jasta> swetland: hehe, of course.  but again, what is sensible is historically not what carriers do.
Sep 24 04:36:41 <gambler> they said in the webcast it is simlocked
Sep 24 04:36:44 <jasta> in fact, it's typically exactly the opposite.
Sep 24 04:37:04 <swetland> times change. last product I worked on had a closed, walled garden app store much like the iphone one
Sep 24 04:37:08 <swetland> this product does not
Sep 24 04:37:09 <aliases123> jasta: so for end users.
Sep 24 04:37:13 <jasta> why do you think the openness android is pioneering is so new in the first place? :)
Sep 24 04:37:53 <jasta> swetland: sure, but nothing changes quickly.
Sep 24 04:38:13 <jasta> and this is the first trial of android, i doubt we'll see anything spectacular.
Sep 24 04:38:33 <swetland> I suppose not.  Probably all dull and boring stuff that's been done before ^^
Sep 24 04:38:48 <jasta> well, i wouldn't say that either.
Sep 24 04:39:07 <swetland> the sarcasm, it may not be easily detectable in this medium
Sep 24 04:39:13 <jasta> all i'm trying to do is defeat this sensationalism folks bring to the channel.  that since android uses linux, somehow it's magically the most hackable thing to come out of the cell industry.
Sep 24 04:39:29 <muthu_> http://www.boingboing.net/2008/09/23/android.html
Sep 24 04:39:30 <jasta> swetland: i detected the sarcasm, i just wanted to clarify.
Sep 24 04:39:41 <aliases123> well steve jobs is very happy 200+ patents in their iphone
Sep 24 04:40:13 <jasta> swetland: i hate the general attitude about linux and open source being magic.
Sep 24 04:40:25 <jasta> its propogated typically by folks that understand neither, sadly.
Sep 24 04:41:29 <jasta> swetland: btw, i've got a long history of reverse engineering, and yes i plan to hack the crap out of Android ;)
Sep 24 04:41:54 <jasta> first things first, though, i need to *fix* android when source comes out.  that fucking mediaplayer class is killing me.
Sep 24 04:42:00 <swetland> I find your absolutism and authoritativeness highly amusing
Sep 24 04:42:13 <aliases123> me agrees
Sep 24 04:42:32 <jasta> swetland: i actually think i'm being pretty vague, defeating the absolutism of others.
Sep 24 04:42:48 <jasta> "i can't wait for android because i can do anything i want", for example.
Sep 24 04:43:19 <aliases123> jasta: that will never happen and who ever thinks that is an idiot
Sep 24 04:43:39 <f00f-> muthu_: what are you talking about
Sep 24 04:43:47 <f00f-> muthu_: use the TelephonyManager
Sep 24 04:43:52 <jasta> swetland: really, i don't know where that comment comes from.
Sep 24 04:43:53 <f00f-> muthu_: like you showed buddy
Sep 24 04:44:02 <muthu_> f00f-, the method is gone
Sep 24 04:44:09 <muthu_> getDefault not availabel
Sep 24 04:44:14 <muthu_> s/bel/ble
Sep 24 04:44:17 <f00f-> get it from a service
Sep 24 04:44:26 <muthu_> guess so
Sep 24 04:44:49 <muthu_> the last time i checked, it wasn't in the service
Sep 24 04:44:58 <f00f-> Context.getSystemService(TELEPHONY_SERVICE)
Sep 24 04:45:02 <f00f-> maybe it was renamed
Sep 24 04:45:18 <jasta> what are you guys trying to do?  get the IMEI?
Sep 24 04:45:26 <muthu_> yeah
Sep 24 04:45:27 <f00f-> yeah
Sep 24 04:45:35 <jasta> 			TelephonyManager tm = (TelephonyManager)MetaService.this
Sep 24 04:45:37 <jasta> 			  .getSystemService(TELEPHONY_SERVICE);
Sep 24 04:45:42 <jasta> tm.getDeviceId() is the IMEI
Sep 24 04:45:52 <muthu_> cool
Sep 24 04:45:59 <muthu_> jasta the android guru
Sep 24 04:46:41 <jasta> it used to be all 0's in the emulator, i haven't checked that it still is.
Sep 24 04:46:54 <chuck> google needs to add support for ruby android applications, and ruby app engine applications :P
Sep 24 04:47:06 <summatusmentis> hi SanMehat
Sep 24 04:47:21 <f00f-> ugh
Sep 24 04:49:00 <muthu_>                 String imei = ((TelephonyManager)getSystemService
Sep 24 04:49:00 <muthu_>                         (Context.TELEPHONY_SERVICE)).getDeviceId();
Sep 24 04:50:45 <muthu_> 000000000000000
Sep 24 04:51:08 <jasta> yup, tahts what it used to be
Sep 24 04:51:11 <jasta> shame
Sep 24 04:51:37 <muthu_> jasta, why?
Sep 24 04:51:40 <f00f-> muthu_: try it on a real device
Sep 24 04:51:47 <muthu_> it cannot be meaningful now
Sep 24 04:51:49 <jasta> you guys have real devices?
Sep 24 04:51:58 <f00f-> nope :X
Sep 24 04:52:04 <muthu_> nope :X
Sep 24 04:52:15 <jasta> ugh.
Sep 24 04:52:16 <f00f-> IMEI is 'kept' in firmware
Sep 24 04:59:26 <aliases123> neat.
Sep 24 05:06:02 <illuminum> i wish my money transfer to etrade would hurry up before the rest of the world realizes that google and amazon are underpriced
Sep 24 05:09:19 <f00f-> heh
Sep 24 05:09:44 <covalentbond_> So I was at the launch event this AM and spent some time playing with the Market app. It's pretty slick, and was definitely real, Has it made its way out into the wild anywhere yet?
Sep 24 05:10:09 <covalentbond_> I thought about it too late, but guess I had the chance to ship it off the phone while I was there. Oh, well...
Sep 24 05:11:48 <f00f-> not  yet covalentbond_
Sep 24 05:11:54 <f00f-> C6H12O6
Sep 24 05:12:31 <covalentbond_> :)
Sep 24 05:12:39 <covalentbond_> screw the ionics!
Sep 24 05:12:45 <f00f-> you were press?
Sep 24 05:13:20 <covalentbond_> close enough. I run http://www.medialets.com/
Sep 24 05:13:38 <covalentbond_> We know lots of the press there, the T-Mobile folks, the Google folks...
Sep 24 05:14:23 <covalentbond_> The whole production went of really well.
Sep 24 05:14:43 <covalentbond_> The google team kicked some serious butt getting it together.
Sep 24 05:14:55 <covalentbond_> (well, their events team, but them nonetheless...)
Sep 24 05:14:58 <swetland> we assembled our best butt kickers
Sep 24 05:15:02 <f00f-> awesome
Sep 24 05:16:06 <f00f-> what part of android do you work on swetland
Sep 24 05:16:25 <swetland> I'm the systems/kernel lead
Sep 24 05:16:35 <f00f-> were you at i/o ?
Sep 24 05:16:44 <swetland> yeah
Sep 24 05:16:52 <f00f-> so did you fix the firewall yet? :P
Sep 24 05:16:59 <swetland> just for the fireside chat panel
Sep 24 05:17:03 <swetland> fix the firewall?
Sep 24 05:17:21 <f00f-> for wifi, bluetooth, network, etc.
Sep 24 05:17:32 <f00f-> to prevent rouge connections
Sep 24 05:17:34 <f00f-> etc.
Sep 24 05:17:42 <covalentbond_> swetland - awesome. you were at be. i was at NeXT way back when...
Sep 24 05:18:23 <swetland> nothing to connect to unless you install an app that creates a listen socket bound to a non-local or any address
Sep 24 05:18:35 <covalentbond_> i still have a bebox somewhere
Sep 24 05:18:56 <f00f-> well
Sep 24 05:18:58 <swetland> as do I. in a closet full of increasingly ancient machines
Sep 24 05:19:09 <f00f-> i have a bluetooth server
Sep 24 05:19:13 <f00f-> but want to limit connections to it
Sep 24 05:19:18 <f00f-> let's say it's RFCOMM server
Sep 24 05:19:26 <f00f-> based on CoD or BT addr
Sep 24 05:19:47 <covalentbond_> that's what happens when you spend a life in tech, i guess
Sep 24 05:20:18 <swetland> is there a method for identifying the peer name/address in BT (haven't worked with it much myself).  Could certainly do that for IP sockets.
Sep 24 05:20:39 <f00f-> yeah inquiry vs discovery ... discovery does names
Sep 24 05:20:40 <swetland> of course BT also has a peering process before you can connect
Sep 24 05:20:50 <f00f-> but i was thinking of a more low level control
Sep 24 05:22:00 <swetland> interesting idea. not something we've done in 1.0, but certainly something that could be added. just as one could use the iptables stuff for IP level filtering
Sep 24 05:22:21 <f00f-> yeah exactly
Sep 24 05:22:35 <f00f-> basically protection for DoS attacks over the air
Sep 24 05:22:45 <f00f-> or mitigation of them
Sep 24 05:22:53 <swetland> doesn't help a lot
Sep 24 05:23:01 <f00f-> scratch that
Sep 24 05:23:02 <f00f-> i mean
Sep 24 05:23:07 <swetland> because if you want to DoS somebody by running down their battery
Sep 24 05:23:12 <f00f-> being able to hide your service from the PublicBrowseGroup
Sep 24 05:23:14 <f00f-> for instance
Sep 24 05:23:24 <swetland> the fact that the kernel filters the packets doesn't save you from the radio activity, wakeup activity, etc
Sep 24 05:23:28 <f00f-> yeah
Sep 24 05:24:16 <swetland> (which is one reason why most carrier networks are heavily nat'd and devices are not directly addressable from the outside or each other -- just the kind of random spammy stuff you can see on the internet would be hell on battery life)
Sep 24 05:25:17 <f00f-> right
Sep 24 05:25:27 <f00f-> so i'm mainly talking external connectivity
Sep 24 05:25:37 <aliases123> f00f-: you need filtering at the next hop away
Sep 24 05:29:59 <aliases123> f00f-: like you don't want some one continually nmaping port 139 on you.
Sep 24 05:31:53 <f00f-> as i said, i'm not talking about network access
Sep 24 05:31:57 <f00f-> i'm talking about bluetooth
Sep 24 05:34:16 <aliases123> did any one see how long it took to boot the device btw
Sep 24 05:34:19 <aliases123> was that shown ?
Sep 24 05:34:35 <Adamant> covalentbond_: still got a NeXT Cube? ever see the pics/vids of Simson Garfinkel burning his?
Sep 24 05:35:16 <covalentbond_> Yep and yep :)
Sep 24 05:35:18 <Adamant> the case was magnesium so it would actually burn pretty spectacularly
Sep 24 05:35:24 <covalentbond_> pretty colors
Sep 24 05:35:24 <Adamant> cool
Sep 24 05:35:30 <covalentbond_> took a lot of heat but it would slag nicely
Sep 24 05:36:14 <Adamant> I should get one, if they don't cost a fortune on the used market.
Sep 24 05:36:32 <covalentbond> you can generally pick them up anywhere between free and $100
Sep 24 05:36:40 <covalentbond> good luck finding one with a working MO drive
Sep 24 05:37:38 <gambler> f00f-, you cant defend against dos attacks esp in wireless
Sep 24 05:37:51 <f00f-> i know
Sep 24 05:38:11 <Adamant> kinda surprised. I thought they were fairly rare and figured collectors might be snapping them up
Sep 24 05:38:16 <gambler> f00f-, your best defense is a good offense...
Sep 24 05:38:46 <gambler> call in the airstrike
Sep 24 05:39:51 <covalentbond> depends - in our ex-NeXT community, they can occasionally be found in large piles for free when the spouse of an ex-NeXTer finally puts their foot down and boots the hardware out of the house :)
Sep 24 05:40:59 <f00f-> lollerskates
Sep 24 05:56:20 <Adamant> covalentbond: true, but I'm not living in the Valley right now. :)
Sep 24 06:13:44 <muthu_> what's the default layout for ExpandableListActivity?
Sep 24 06:13:50 <muthu_> and the id of the listview?
Sep 24 06:14:49 <romainguy> muthu_: look at the ApiDemos
Sep 24 06:15:09 <muthu_> romainguy, apidemos just does the default
Sep 24 06:15:12 <muthu_> no layout nothing
Sep 24 06:15:38 <muthu_> there's 3 examples.. none of them show how to customize ELA
Sep 24 06:15:47 <romainguy> then ask on the mailing list
Sep 24 06:16:00 <muthu_> yeah, mailing list
Sep 24 06:16:06 <muthu_> forgot about that.. totally
Sep 24 06:16:22 <muthu_> need to get back in action ;)
Sep 24 06:21:10 <muthu_> is there a way to get the default layout of an activity?
Sep 24 06:21:22 <romainguy> what do you mean?
Sep 24 06:21:40 <muthu_> get a blank screen, in a view
Sep 24 06:21:52 <muthu_> need to add a textview saying nothing found
Sep 24 06:22:01 <muthu_> if results found, list is shown
Sep 24 06:22:24 <romainguy> that's what ListView's empty view is for
Sep 24 06:22:32 <muthu_> what? where?
Sep 24 06:22:42 <romainguy> look at the ApiDemos
Sep 24 06:22:45 <romainguy> and at the docs
Sep 24 06:22:53 <muthu_> ok.. now i remember
Sep 24 06:23:00 <muthu_> guess it was discussed a while back
Sep 24 06:23:01 <muthu_> cool
Sep 24 06:23:14 <romainguy> it's been in the SDK since M3 I think
Sep 24 06:23:18 <muthu_> rite
Sep 24 06:23:25 <muthu_> i know you mentioned it before
Sep 24 06:23:35 <muthu_> romainguy, where's your g1 videos?
Sep 24 06:23:43 <romainguy> what do you mean?
Sep 24 06:23:44 <muthu_> was looking at the android peeks, didn't find yours
Sep 24 06:23:49 <muthu_> in youtube
Sep 24 06:23:52 <romainguy> there's one with me
Sep 24 06:23:55 <anno^da_> haha yeah :) I searched that as well :)
Sep 24 06:23:58 <muthu_> which one?
Sep 24 06:24:00 <anno^da_> which one ?
Sep 24 06:24:05 <romainguy> the one where I say my name :)
Sep 24 06:24:09 <muthu_> nope
Sep 24 06:24:12 <anno^da_> Grr :D
Sep 24 06:24:16 <romainguy> yes, it's there
Sep 24 06:24:16 <muthu_> may be they pulled it ;)
Sep 24 06:24:44 <muthu_> what were your tricks?
Sep 24 06:25:22 <muthu_>         // Tell the list view which view to display when the list is empty
Sep 24 06:25:23 <muthu_>         getListView().setEmptyView(findViewById(R.id.empty));
Sep 24 06:25:34 <muthu_> hope this works for Expandable as well
Sep 24 06:26:42 <muthu_> romainguy, 1-10, what's your number in youtube?
Sep 24 06:26:52 <romainguy> the one where I say my name :)
Sep 24 06:26:58 <muthu_> hehe
Sep 24 06:27:36 <anno^da_> haha
Sep 24 06:27:48 <anno^da_> ok lets walk through the videos again :D
Sep 24 06:27:53 <muthu_> anno^da_, you found it?
Sep 24 06:28:44 <muthu_> jeff, jack, jason, eric
Sep 24 06:28:56 <romainguy> hey
Sep 24 06:29:03 <romainguy> I'm in 4 videos
Sep 24 06:29:17 <muthu_> ha!
Sep 24 06:29:18 <anno^da_> lol 4 videos :)
Sep 24 06:29:20 <muthu_> just found it
Sep 24 06:29:22 <muthu_> lol
Sep 24 06:29:26 <anno^da_> which one muthu_
Sep 24 06:29:26 <muthu_> yay! 4
Sep 24 06:29:32 <muthu_> number 4
Sep 24 06:29:36 <romainguy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lScgyXGxwo&feature=user
Sep 24 06:29:40 <romainguy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LkNlTNHZzE&feature=user
Sep 24 06:29:40 <muthu_> home screen shortcuts
Sep 24 06:29:44 <romainguy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aUjukCdPyQ&feature=user
Sep 24 06:30:04 <muthu_> with the android tshirt and all..
Sep 24 06:30:47 <muthu_> nice
Sep 24 06:30:49 <anno^da_> ahhh havent seen them all :-)
Sep 24 06:31:58 <muthu_> flickr app is pretty cool
Sep 24 06:35:05 <anno^da_> perhaps you could highlight the new photo that is available after the notification :-) (just came to my mind while wathcing the flickr app video)
Sep 24 06:35:34 <romainguy> I thought I did with m finger
Sep 24 06:35:38 <romainguy> should have clicked on it
Sep 24 06:35:42 <romainguy> but we tried to keep the videos short
Sep 24 06:36:16 <anno^da_> yeah you did it with the finger.
Sep 24 06:36:21 <anno^da_> Just an idea for the app itself
Sep 24 06:36:34 <anno^da_> (some eyecany if you want :-) )
Sep 24 06:36:38 <anno^da_> +d
Sep 24 06:36:52 <romainguy> more eyecandy? :)
Sep 24 06:37:15 <muthu_> the flickr app will be downloaded like crazy
Sep 24 06:37:23 <romainguy> I doubt it
Sep 24 06:37:23 <muthu_> we can shoot and upload directly, right?
Sep 24 06:37:27 <romainguy> no
Sep 24 06:37:30 <romainguy> it's just a simple viewer
Sep 24 06:37:34 <muthu_> oh
Sep 24 06:37:39 <romainguy> it's meant as an developer's demo
Sep 24 06:37:41 <romainguy> nothing more
Sep 24 06:37:46 <muthu_> ok
Sep 24 06:38:05 <muthu_> if you add an upload.. then nothing like it
Sep 24 06:38:22 <romainguy> I could... but it's work :)
Sep 24 06:38:35 <muthu_> yeah, but you'll be a celebrity then :)
Sep 24 06:38:45 <muthu_> the most downloaded app title will be yours
Sep 24 06:38:53 <anno^da_> you can have my flickr upload :-)
Sep 24 06:39:02 <romainguy> muthu_: lol, doubt it :p
Sep 24 06:39:15 <muthu_> would be interesting to watch those apps
Sep 24 06:39:25 <muthu_> you know the ratings. the downloads etc.,
Sep 24 06:39:33 <muthu_> see how the adc winners are faring against the rest
Sep 24 06:39:47 <anno^da_> When are the developers able to register for the market store?
Sep 24 06:39:52 <muthu_> oct
Sep 24 06:39:59 <muthu_> prolly a week before launch
Sep 24 06:40:04 <anno^da_> ah ok must have stepped over that
Sep 24 06:40:09 <anno^da_> thanks
Sep 24 06:40:26 <muthu_> around launch is the werd
Sep 24 06:40:52 <mazzen> oh... i can't wait for the german release :-) i *want* that phone!!! :-)
Sep 24 06:41:03 <romainguy> btw
Sep 24 06:41:09 <romainguy> speaking of Europe
Sep 24 06:41:19 <romainguy> I'll be giving two Android talks in December at Devoxx: http://devoxx.com/display/JV08/Filthy+Rich+Android+Clients
Sep 24 06:41:21 <mazzen> this os is so freaky cool! :-)
Sep 24 06:41:53 <mazzen> hey! that's pretty close to my home
Sep 24 06:41:57 <romainguy> Antwerp?
Sep 24 06:42:02 <muthu_> romainguy, it was called filthy rich swing clients?
Sep 24 06:42:04 <mazzen> i 'll be there! :-)
Sep 24 06:42:07 <romainguy> :)
Sep 24 06:42:12 <romainguy> muthu_: just Filthy Rich Clients
Sep 24 06:42:17 <muthu_> oh rite
Sep 24 06:42:35 <romainguy> but then Chet, with whom I wrote the book Filthy Rich Clients, went to work for Adobe and did a Filthy Rich Flex Clients talk :)
Sep 24 06:42:37 <mazzen> western germany, that's very close to the netherlands
Sep 24 06:42:58 <romainguy> I know :)
Sep 24 06:43:20 <anno^da_> romainguy: Do you know if there will be some developer programm regarding the hardware. So that european devs dont have to wait for the device launch in November / Q1 2009 ?
Sep 24 06:43:28 <romainguy> I cannot answer this question
Sep 24 06:43:32 <mazzen> romainguy: could you please bring a few hundreds of the G1 with you ? ;-)
Sep 24 06:43:33 <anno^da_> ok
Sep 24 06:43:48 <anno^da_> mazzen: that would be second wish :-)
Sep 24 06:43:48 <romainguy> mazzen: I'll certainly have a couple, one for myself and one for demos :p
Sep 24 06:43:52 <anno^da_> +my
Sep 24 06:44:02 <mazzen> args :)
Sep 24 06:44:13 <muthu_> if you bring the G1's.. it will be a soldout
Sep 24 06:44:22 <romainguy> lol
Sep 24 06:44:30 <romainguy> this conference doesn't need a G1 to be sold out :)
Sep 24 06:44:31 <anno^da_> haha I will try to be there
Sep 24 06:44:40 <romainguy> it used to be called JavaPolis
Sep 24 06:44:46 <romainguy> it's the biggest Java conference in Europe
Sep 24 06:44:50 <muthu_> oh rite
Sep 24 06:45:04 <romainguy> except now it's not just Java anymore
Sep 24 06:45:22 <muthu_> java needs to give way
Sep 24 06:45:53 <mazzen> seriously: does anyone knows if it's possible to buy the phone without a two year contract?
Sep 24 06:46:19 <anno^da_> mazzen: the T-Mobile CTO said it will be available for 399 withouth contracr
Sep 24 06:46:27 <davidw> december is a weird time for conferences
Sep 24 06:46:27 <mazzen> dollar?
Sep 24 06:46:28 <anno^da_> in the US.
Sep 24 06:48:08 <mazzen> hm... guess that will fresh the ebay market again :)
Sep 24 06:48:39 <muthu_> would be nice to buy an unlocked and use it will local carriers
Sep 24 06:49:44 <anno^da_> well thats the choice if there wont be a dev program
Sep 24 06:50:10 <anno^da_> In order to develope we have to import the phones and unlock them.
Sep 24 06:50:10 <mazzen> yes, i think / thought so also, ... but android without a data flat... makes maybe not so much fun
Sep 24 06:50:18 <anno^da_> true
Sep 24 06:50:26 <anno^da_> for testing it would be ok (with wifi)
Sep 24 06:50:31 <mazzen> yes
Sep 24 06:50:54 <anno^da_> So romainguy has to import them for us ;)
Sep 24 06:51:02 <mazzen> hehe :-)
Sep 24 06:52:07 <mazzen> i would love to see the face of the duty officer... "do you have anything for duty?" "yes, sir.  423 htc G1 with android"
Sep 24 06:54:15 <anno^da_> romainguy: are the different kinds of the android logo (that are visible in the back of the videos) available on the web? ( I like the scratching android )
Sep 24 07:09:59 <gambler> that was a good video
Sep 24 07:10:09 <gambler> Apps are created equal
Sep 24 07:10:17 <anno^da_> reading through all the comments the only big criticism is the UI of the OS. (reading through some none geek site stuff)
Sep 24 07:12:49 <anno^da_> But what I recognized was that after they saw some of the videos (explaining the new possibilities in easy words) the opinion slightly changed.
Sep 24 07:19:41 <anno^da_> To sum up the comments just one sentence quoted: "Man hätte sich doch ein etwas ansprechenderes Modell für den Start aussuchen können."  - "They should have chosen a more appealing phone for the first launch"
Sep 24 07:20:14 <davidw> I'm curious how soon we'll see other phones
Sep 24 07:20:30 <davidw> I mean, that's part of the appeal... Android will be an open system with lots of different stuff
Sep 24 07:21:32 <anno^da_> Yeah but thats the point G1 in Europe in 2009. And no other phones announced.
Sep 24 07:21:53 <gdsx> davidw: I believe I read that some folks got the 0.9 SDK running on hardware already
Sep 24 07:23:25 <anno^da_> Well but thats geek stuff and not interesting for the normal consumer.
Sep 24 07:23:57 <davidw> gdsx, yeah, I mean real phones for sale
Sep 24 07:25:30 <gdsx> ::nod::
Sep 24 07:35:03 <Adamant> David Pogue of the WSJ reviewed the G1.. he's very much an Apple fan, but he had muted praise for the phone assuming certain things are fixed before production.
Sep 24 07:35:35 <Adamant> (WSJ = Wall Street Journal for non-USAians)
Sep 24 07:36:17 <muthu_> G1 reviews are positive in general
Sep 24 07:37:35 <Adamant> yeah. it will be interesting to read what Mossberg will say
Sep 24 07:38:39 <Adamant> he's a ridiculously huge Apple fan and does the NYT gadget reviews, so if he endorses it there will be pretty much no major negative reviews.
Sep 24 07:39:00 <muthu_> did he review already?
Sep 24 07:39:09 <Adamant> I don't think so
Sep 24 07:39:49 <Adamant> no, he did
Sep 24 07:39:53 <Adamant> let me read the review
Sep 24 07:40:01 <muthu_> yeah, remember reading it
Sep 24 07:40:19 <anno^da_> Well I can tell you the critics he will have: hardware design, exchange, ui design, 3,5mm jack, A2DP
Sep 24 07:40:22 <Adamant> yeah, he likes it as well
Sep 24 07:40:25 <muthu_> http://mossblog.allthingsd.com/20080923/googles-g1-first-impressions/
Sep 24 07:40:46 <Adamant> the 3.5mm jack thing is really lame.
Sep 24 07:41:10 <Adamant> exchange I don't really care about because the first iPhone revision didn't have it either
Sep 24 07:41:16 <Adamant> *version
Sep 24 07:41:47 <anno^da_> Sure for me it is not a problem. But that will be the points mentioned. :-)
Sep 24 07:48:10 <tric> hmm, im getting constructor is not visible on `new android.os.Vibrator()`, is it working for you guys?
Sep 24 07:49:09 <tric> and -qemu switch doesnt work anymore for the emulator, any hint how to setup the network for the emu in 1.0?
Sep 24 07:54:39 <zenob> hi, in new sdk  NetworkConnectivityListener was removed. Is there any other way to get connectivity change info ?
Sep 24 08:33:40 <muthu_> ./emu-wd.start: line 1:  5456 Segmentation fault
Sep 24 08:35:00 <anno^da_> . But the G1 lacks a built-in video player  <- thats a decision I cant understand. For the consumer market there has to be one integrated. (I know you can get it for free but well the normal consumer just reads "no video player" in the reviews)
Sep 24 08:36:28 <muthu_> media is lacking
Sep 24 08:36:37 <muthu_> video recording is a must
Sep 24 08:37:29 <anno^da_> Well a lot things are lacking but ok. For me as a developer/advanced consumer it is no problem but for the normal end user that just reads the specs it could be a deal breaker.
Sep 24 08:37:55 <muthu_> normal joe wants video recording
Sep 24 08:38:19 <muthu_> not sure why good missed this
Sep 24 08:38:23 <anno^da_> Well he wants syncing with Outlook, A2DP, Video playback, 3,5mm jack etc etc ;)
Sep 24 08:38:24 <muthu_> google
Sep 24 08:38:31 <muthu_> nope
Sep 24 08:38:38 <muthu_> video recording is such a basic thing
Sep 24 08:38:49 <muthu_> indians use cellphones as their camera
Sep 24 08:38:58 <muthu_> so cheap, but very useful
Sep 24 08:39:03 <anno^da_> Yeah sure my 6 year old phone do video recording without problems.
Sep 24 08:39:08 <muthu_> rite
Sep 24 08:40:00 <anno^da_> I think that it lacks the basic things if you dont want to use the google services.
Sep 24 08:40:22 <anno^da_> I want to sync but not with Google :)
Sep 24 08:41:21 <muthu_> they want the early users to use google
Sep 24 08:41:38 <muthu_> v2 must have all for sure
Sep 24 08:41:42 <anno^da_> Yeah I know that there will be apps that make it possible to sync to different services.
Sep 24 08:41:51 <muthu_> yup
Sep 24 08:42:06 <muthu_> its a smart move in  a way
Sep 24 08:42:13 <anno^da_> It is just my first experience that I get at the moment.
Sep 24 08:42:14 <anno^da_> Sure
Sep 24 08:42:19 <anno^da_> from their perspective it is.
Sep 24 08:42:31 <muthu_> yeah, just build kick ass apps for google first
Sep 24 08:42:40 <muthu_> 3rd party can be taken care by 3rd party
Sep 24 08:43:23 <anno^da_> But after having seen all the videos I want the hardware more than before. :-)
Sep 24 08:43:39 <muthu_> yeah
Sep 24 08:43:49 <muthu_> like the fact its so different from iphone
Sep 24 08:44:14 <muthu_> the black one looks fantastic
Sep 24 08:46:08 <anno^da_> Yeah and I'm really looking forward seeing some guys improving the UI design :D
Sep 24 08:47:06 <anno^da_> http://gizmodo.com/5053734/how-many-google-engineers-does-it-take-to-tell-the-time#
Sep 24 08:49:44 <muthu_> yeah, that's a problem
Sep 24 08:49:50 <muthu_> and the timezone settings doesn't work
Sep 24 08:50:30 <muthu_> the phone looks great
Sep 24 08:50:34 <muthu_> its perfect with touch and real keyboard
Sep 24 09:02:58 <tomgibara> I'm disappointed by the phone, I haven't used one yet, but I'm worried because I don't think people will buy it large numbers.
Sep 24 09:03:18 <muthu_> tomgibara, why?
Sep 24 09:04:40 <tomgibara> It seems about as expensive as an iPhone, but doesn't have feature parity.
Sep 24 09:05:20 <muthu_> yeah, the cost factor hasn't come down a lot
Sep 24 09:05:29 <tomgibara> The iPhone came first, so it had greater caché, this phone has come out later so I expect it needs to be better in every single way, or significantly cheaper
Sep 24 09:06:15 <muthu_> if it's cheaper.. it will sell in india
Sep 24 09:06:27 <tomgibara> That's how consumers seem to be: the iPhone, "wow", next phone that's as good as an iPhone, "so what"
Sep 24 09:06:44 <tomgibara> How cheap do you think?
Sep 24 09:07:12 <muthu_> unlocked.. 179$ is a good price
Sep 24 09:07:37 <muthu_> but they'll price it like $600-800 here
Sep 24 09:08:23 <muthu_> even locked.. $179 will sell in india
Sep 24 09:08:27 <ulmen> unlocked and without contract from t-mobile is $399 in the us
Sep 24 09:08:46 <ulmen> and other phones will follow, hopefully cheaper
Sep 24 09:09:03 <muthu_> yeah
Sep 24 09:09:48 <muthu_> $200 is the limit in india for mass sales
Sep 24 09:10:38 <muthu_> iphone is a huge failure in india becoz of the cost factor
Sep 24 09:11:35 <muthu_> man, funny widgets can be created by fiddling the widget dimens
Sep 24 09:11:46 <muthu_> wow, looks cool
Sep 24 09:12:23 <tomgibara> ulmen: I think the danger is that if the android platform is strongly associated with a poorly selling phone, people will draw negative conclusions about the platform
Sep 24 09:12:51 <tric> hmm, maybe we need a -dev and a -devices chan and a -talk ;)
Sep 24 09:13:52 <tomgibara> tric: Sorry, I guess this has already been debated to death, I'm late to the party
Sep 24 09:14:18 <ulmen> and -fanbois, -critics, -other, -internal, -press, -bla, -foo, -bar, and -baz
Sep 24 09:14:23 <ulmen> it's so crowded here.
Sep 24 09:14:26 <tric> hehe, true!
Sep 24 09:14:29 <ulmen> i can't even hear myself
Sep 24 09:15:43 <davidw> tomgibara, "more open" is the key selling point for me
Sep 24 09:16:10 <davidw> and I think that long term, that's a strength even for 'average users'
Sep 24 09:16:12 <muthu_> this channel doesn't have enough traffic
Sep 24 09:16:13 <ulmen> tomgibara: i think once there are more phones than the g1, people will quickly see that android is not a phone but an operating system (like they very well do with windows mobile and symbian)
Sep 24 09:16:25 <ulmen> and then it's all about the apps and features
Sep 24 09:16:34 <muthu_> #iphone is always active
Sep 24 09:16:34 <tomgibara> davidw: Yes, I'm a huge fan of Android; and I won't touch the iPhone because of the distribution model.
Sep 24 09:17:24 <anno^da_> testapp from the new Openmoko UI: http://www.rasterman.com/files/illume-new-01.png
Sep 24 09:17:31 <tomgibara> ulmen: It is conceivable that android could get a bad reputation among consumers because they associate it with poor/expensive phones.
Sep 24 09:17:42 <anno^da_> Thats a clean and nice looking UI. :-)
Sep 24 09:18:11 <tomgibara> It's possible that it becomes a negative spiral: carriers not touching android because the percieve it as being unpopular with customers
Sep 24 09:19:28 <ulmen> possible, but for now far from being reality ... android got rather good press imho
Sep 24 09:20:50 <ulmen> and also, i don't buy my phones from carriers or am intrested in contracts that subsidize hardware =)
Sep 24 09:21:14 <ulmen> so as long as the hardware manufacturers keep developing phones, i'm happy
Sep 24 09:21:32 <tomgibara> ulmen: I agree its not a reality, but it is a risk, and one with very severe consequences, even if you regard it as a remote possibilty
Sep 24 09:22:25 <ulmen> so what is your bottom line? not touch it because it's something new and it could fail?
Sep 24 09:22:33 <tomgibara> Techies make this mistake frequently: because they know so many techies they grossly overestimate the impact that popularity among techies has on sales. Even if developers love android, and even if we see straight through the charades of the carriers, it won't make difference to direct hardware sales.
Sep 24 09:22:42 <ulmen> imho there are too big names involved to make it a complete disaster
Sep 24 09:22:57 <ulmen> also the strategy is good (enough) to be a success
Sep 24 09:23:46 <tomgibara> I have already developed four apps for android, so no, that's not my bottom line... I want it to succeed because I think it's superbly engineered and a very positive development in the industry
Sep 24 09:24:06 <tomgibara> What I am concerned about is that the first phone could tank and bring down android with it
Sep 24 09:24:44 <anno^da_> Hmm well that is what I'm concerend about as well. I don't know from what I hear from the normal end users the reactions are not that positive.
Sep 24 09:25:00 <muthu_> if the first phone tanks, google might be forced to look at cheaper phones
Sep 24 09:25:12 <anno^da_> As expected they compare features and UI / hardware design.
Sep 24 09:25:21 <tric> hm, k, fixed the vibrator, didnt use the context.getsystemservice.
Sep 24 09:25:24 <ulmen> well but now it is like it is, the g1 is the first handset and it has some (imho) rather minor flaws, the world did not fall apart and the future is bright =)
Sep 24 09:25:32 <tric> but how to set qemu flags on the sdk1 emu?
Sep 24 09:25:36 <anno^da_> ulmen: true :D
Sep 24 09:25:40 <muthu_> may be they can target dumb phones
Sep 24 09:26:32 <tomgibara> ulmen: minor flaws on a device at that price will get ripped apart in the press (rightly or wrongly)
Sep 24 09:26:44 <muthu_> G1 has got some great press
Sep 24 09:26:48 <muthu_> so looks like a hit to me
Sep 24 09:27:28 <tomgibara> muthu_: good press where?
Sep 24 09:27:34 <tric> hmm, not so great press here in germany
Sep 24 09:28:07 <tric> more like: "not yet final os on common hw with no stereo bluetooth and no exchange support"
Sep 24 09:29:11 <muthu_> good press in the blogosphere
Sep 24 09:29:12 <tric> damn, google guys still asleep?
Sep 24 09:29:30 <tomgibara> muthu_: That hasn't been my impression
Sep 24 09:29:37 <tric> muthu: nobody cares about blogs if real (paper) press is bad.
Sep 24 09:29:46 <tomgibara> But then again I don't really read very much of that stuff
Sep 24 09:30:22 <muthu_> oh well
Sep 24 09:30:23 <anno^da_> http://gizmodo.com/5053734/how-many-google-engineers-does-it-take-to-tell-the-time#  <- I recognized that lack in detail even at the press conference. The teaser video was something I would never show on an official press release. But that are things that are important outside the developers cage.
Sep 24 09:31:37 <anno^da_> One example: They buy a mp3 from the Amazon store. After that they play it with the music app and no cover is shown.
Sep 24 09:32:22 <anno^da_> That are details and they might seem unimportant but they make the whole thing look somehow unprofessionel.
Sep 24 09:32:48 <tric> hehe, yeah, the clock thing was really hyped in forums
Sep 24 09:33:03 <tric> i wonder why such a thing happens
Sep 24 09:34:02 <anno^da_> Well there are a lot of these problems.
Sep 24 09:34:04 <tomgibara> anno^da_: This is a classic engineering dilema imo: increased freedom to engineer each component to its fullest potential can degrade their union
Sep 24 09:34:20 <anno^da_> Yeah sure tomgibara for third party apps.
Sep 24 09:34:28 <anno^da_> But not for the pre installed ones.
Sep 24 09:34:39 <tric> yes, but there shouldnt be errors in the main promo pic!
Sep 24 09:34:39 <tomgibara> It applies to preinstalled ones too
Sep 24 09:34:41 <anno^da_> And not for the details in press conference videos.
Sep 24 09:34:47 <muthu_> the emulator has problems with timezone now
Sep 24 09:35:21 <anno^da_> Yeah sure but thats something that has not to be so. Thats the polishing which Android lacks at the moment.
Sep 24 09:35:25 <tomgibara> If the designer of app X thinks 16pt font works best for his app and, designer of app Y think 18pt font works best, what do you do?
Sep 24 09:35:39 <tomgibara> Force them to make each app worse with a 17pt font?
Sep 24 09:35:57 <tomgibara> These problems don't just disappear because the apps are preinstalled.
Sep 24 09:36:01 <anno^da_> tomgibara: I will connect to both and get a solution. In the end the user experience counts or not ?
Sep 24 09:36:30 <tomgibara> But the end user experience will generally be worse for both apps.
Sep 24 09:36:38 <anno^da_> I know that in an open system there will never be a consistent look.
Sep 24 09:36:58 <anno^da_> But in press videos there has to be one.
Sep 24 09:37:29 <muthu_> hope the google market is open and free
Sep 24 09:37:36 <ulmen> as long as they provide some good upgrade mechanism, i personally don't care to much about software flaws. google/the oha has quite some developer power to let the os evolve quickly
Sep 24 09:37:37 <tomgibara> I agree, its hard to sell. I point to linux vs. OSX for a perfectly extreme example
Sep 24 09:37:43 <anno^da_> I dont know it is the same problem I recognized with a lot of open source apps. They are technically great but the look is well ... ok :-)
Sep 24 09:38:02 <anno^da_> Yeah thats a good comparison.
Sep 24 09:38:14 <tomgibara> It's exactly the same issue, but very extreme
Sep 24 09:38:29 <tomgibara> Each linux app develops to be extremely well suited to its task
Sep 24 09:38:41 <tomgibara> But can make working between them very painful
Sep 24 09:38:50 <anno^da_> Agreed.
Sep 24 09:38:59 <tomgibara> And it makes them inconsistent, so harder to learn.
Sep 24 09:39:35 <anno^da_> Yeah the point is if you look at the OSX developers. They do care about consitency.
Sep 24 09:39:41 <anno^da_> Even if they are not from Apple.
Sep 24 09:39:42 <tomgibara> In the end, you're right: someone has to take responsibility for a collection of apps and say: I am willing to make these apps worse, to make the collection better
Sep 24 09:40:07 <tomgibara> How far you go down that line is variable
Sep 24 09:40:17 <anno^da_> True.
Sep 24 09:40:28 <anno^da_> It is all about details.
Sep 24 09:40:47 <anno^da_> But the details can become very important if you step to the end user.
Sep 24 09:41:08 <anno^da_> (the normal dumb consumer. Dumb in this case must not be negative)
Sep 24 09:42:02 <tric> damn, and seems like im having nativ lib/jni problems in sdk1
Sep 24 09:42:24 <tomgibara> One detail that frustrates me is that I can't change the design of the clock on the homescreen, but I can do it for the alarm
Sep 24 09:42:45 <tomgibara> but the alarm clock is one that I rarely see
Sep 24 09:43:17 <tomgibara> and, the homescreen clock isn't available as one of the options
Sep 24 09:43:39 <tomgibara> it just seems daft to me
Sep 24 09:43:53 <anno^da_> Yeah that is something that I mean with details.
Sep 24 09:44:19 <anno^da_> Well an looking at this new Openmoko picture: http://www.rasterman.com/files/illume-new-01.png  - Good design can be done and doesnt have to look like the iPhone.
Sep 24 09:45:13 <tric> hmm, i was thinking, is there a on screen keyboard included in android 1.0? for phones without hw keys?
Sep 24 09:45:26 <tomgibara> tric: not as far as I know
Sep 24 09:45:37 <tomgibara> though I haven't used a phone yet
Sep 24 09:46:25 <tomgibara> romainguy said that he thought they would be adding one, but he wasn't sure
Sep 24 09:47:06 <tomgibara> I suspect they cut out APIs they didn't need on the first phones, to make sure they shipped on time
Sep 24 09:47:39 <muthu_> video recording is a big miss
Sep 24 09:48:17 <tomgibara> Even though the hw keyboard is a major feature for me, I think I'd find the lack of a sw keyboard quite annoying
Sep 24 09:48:50 <tomgibara> For example, you can filter the apps by typing letters, but that means that you need to open the phone first? Not really a timesaver is it.
Sep 24 09:49:46 <tomgibara> (in the instance where you want to launch an app that wants portrait mode)
Sep 24 09:49:47 <muthu_> so mostly the phone will be in landscape mode
Sep 24 09:50:43 <tomgibara> For these devices and apps that need typing, yes, that was obvious a while ago
Sep 24 09:57:46 <muthu_> so landscape is the default
Sep 24 09:59:39 <tric> anyone here can please try -qemu flag on new emu? its included in doku but emu resports "no such option" here.
Sep 24 10:00:07 <tomgibara> I wouldn't describe it as the default, but I think it will be more much more common than developers expect - I think they get brainwashed by its default into portait
Sep 24 10:00:23 <ulmen> i hope for some onscreen keyboard love to come soon, which is enough for things like entering an url or contact
Sep 24 10:01:02 <ulmen> for writing mails and longer text, the big hardware keyboard is obviously the premium solution
Sep 24 10:02:03 <tomgibara> tric: I get "w: invalid option -- '-qemu'"
Sep 24 10:02:43 <ulmen> and then it's onscreen only on the iphone vs onscreen + hardware keyboard ... win for android =)
Sep 24 10:02:54 <tric> hmm, ok. so not my fault, but how do we are supposed to setup the network now? ie for listening sockets
Sep 24 10:03:57 <tric> hmm, and did you guys read "Replacing Dialer, IM, and SMS Apps" on -dev group? interesting question. it was always "all apps are equal", doesnt seem to be true today
Sep 24 10:05:52 <tomgibara> tric: I think they have been pretty clear from early on that core phone apps would not be up for replacement
Sep 24 10:08:31 <tric> well, iirc in first talks they said _any_, but well.
Sep 24 10:08:45 <Adamant> the US press for G1 has been pretty positive
Sep 24 10:09:15 <Adamant> Mossberg even thinks the Android is the only real competitor for iPhone, and he's a big Apple fan
Sep 24 10:11:00 <anno^da_> haha that video is nice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaN1Nz1Dyls&eurl=http://gizmodo.com/5053734/how-many-google-engineers-does-it-take-to-tell-the-time
Sep 24 10:11:47 <tric> yeah, in the long run i would think that aswell, but the current hw is no competitor imho. everyone i talked to was disappointed about the design
Sep 24 10:12:06 <tomgibara> The first sentence in the "The Times" (UK paper): The T-Mobile G1 is great. The iPhone is better.
Sep 24 10:12:58 <tric> and almost same $$$ for a chinese phone! ;)
Sep 24 10:20:37 <Adamant> they're all Chinese
Sep 24 10:20:57 <Adamant> at least in terms of who physically assembles them
Sep 24 10:26:04 <tric> adamant: we know, but most ppl think different
Sep 24 10:26:50 <Adamant> tric: it says "Designed in California. Assembled In China" on most Apple products
Sep 24 10:27:08 <Adamant> thanks for dissing America Steve.
Sep 24 10:29:10 <Adamant> you could at least say "California, USA"
Sep 24 10:36:10 <ulmen> "California, USA, North America, Western hemisphere, Earth, Solar system, ...., Milky Way Galaxy, ..., Universe"
Sep 24 10:36:27 <ulmen> and that would still diss someone, propably
Sep 24 10:51:08 <muthu_> where's Mars?
Sep 24 11:06:42 <ulmen> mars is not part in the hierarchy of californias location
Sep 24 11:08:54 <muthu_> hehe
Sep 24 12:07:41 <tric> hmm, was there any word about installing a apk on the g1 beside the market? maybe via wifi and a url, usb or bt?
Sep 24 12:09:22 <anno^da_> yeah there was a word but they didnt mention the way you do it
Sep 24 12:13:00 <Dougie187> http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/23/t-mobiles-cto-on-g1-unlocking-and-tethering-plus-a-few-detai/
Sep 24 12:13:06 <Dougie187> Good news for the unlockers.
Sep 24 12:13:24 <tric> so even if i get one, its prolly no solution for developing
Sep 24 12:13:57 <Dougie187> Contract free for $400
Sep 24 12:14:25 <Dougie187> but you cant unlock with t-mobiles blessing until after 90 days
Sep 24 12:15:41 <tric> you can
Sep 24 12:16:15 <Dougie187> you can. but not with tmobiles blessing.
Sep 24 12:16:20 <Dougie187> thats what im saying.
Sep 24 12:16:37 <Dougie187> so tmobile doesn't want you to unlock it, until 90 days after you buy it. then they don't care what you do with it
Sep 24 12:17:13 <tric> well, actually, i would only need to push a apk on it and use wifi.
Sep 24 12:17:32 <tric> and get (qemu) network settings to work in sdk1 :(
Sep 24 12:18:14 <Dougie187> i just thought it was cool that they do contract free for 400
Sep 24 12:18:28 <Dougie187> and they aren't going to lock it down so you can't unlock it
Sep 24 12:18:36 <Dougie187> or update the phone so unlock apps break
Sep 24 12:21:42 <tric> true
Sep 24 12:22:22 <Dougie187> and they won't lock out tethering either, but that 1gb cap is going to be a pain in the ass
Sep 24 12:25:14 <tric> we need other provider offering more phones ;)
Sep 24 12:26:21 <Dougie187> it will come.
Sep 24 12:26:29 <Dougie187> Sprint is supposed to have one by the end of the year as well
Sep 24 12:26:36 <Dougie187> and they have better data plans than Tmobile.
Sep 24 12:26:48 <Dougie187> as long as they don't set up a 1Gb cap as well
Sep 24 12:27:01 <tric> hmm, when i try to install a .apk from somewhere, the emu tells me about some settings that installation is blocked. is there a way to unblock it?
Sep 24 12:27:18 <Dougie187> ionno, im probably not the best person to ask.
Sep 24 12:27:19 <tric> and we need it in .de ;)
Sep 24 12:27:28 <Dougie187> true, but that will come.
Sep 24 12:27:36 <tric> im asking not only you ;)
Sep 24 12:27:39 <Dougie187> i know
Sep 24 12:27:48 <Dougie187> but, it seems like there not many active people in here.
Sep 24 12:28:07 <Dougie187> the numbers have died down a bit since yesterday
Sep 24 12:28:21 <Dougie187> almost to normal now.
Sep 24 12:28:28 <zhobbs> it's early too
Sep 24 12:28:42 <Dougie187> true
Sep 24 12:28:50 <Dougie187> not many people like to think in the morning
Sep 24 12:29:39 <tric> hehe, its 2pm here ;)
Sep 24 12:29:45 <Dougie187> yeah its 8:30 am here.
Sep 24 12:29:49 <tric> so not actually morning over here
Sep 24 12:29:56 <Dougie187> 5:30 on the other coast.
Sep 24 12:30:14 <tric> i dont care, i need support now! ;)
Sep 24 12:30:29 <Dougie187> lol, well the android people probably wont be in for another 2.5 hours.
Sep 24 12:30:58 <zhobbs> googler's are hung over from the G1 launch
Sep 24 12:31:15 <Dougie187> lol
Sep 24 12:31:30 <tric> and prolly some party ;)
Sep 24 12:45:58 <zenob> hello, does anybody know how can i get ScanResult in WifiManager ?
Sep 24 13:05:45 <tric> dougie187: what do you think about http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/09/three-years-and.html and the NO VoIP thing
Sep 24 13:06:54 <km-> morning
Sep 24 13:07:47 <Dougie187> thats too bad.
Sep 24 13:08:02 <km-> wtf?
Sep 24 13:08:05 <pardom> zhobbs: question about that code yesterday
Sep 24 13:08:16 <km-> err.  How could they make the phone "not do voip"
Sep 24 13:08:44 <Dougie187> Maybe they left out that part of the api?
Sep 24 13:08:52 <tric> well. my voip client still works in sdk1.0, native libs still work.
Sep 24 13:09:00 <Dougie187> ionno. thats weird.
Sep 24 13:09:09 <Dougie187> isn't 1.0 whats going to be on the phone?
Sep 24 13:09:20 <km-> ok, well, lets stop and evaluate.  a voip program uses 1) audio out 2) audio in 3) codecs 4) transmission
Sep 24 13:09:21 <tric> yeah, thats what google is telling us.
Sep 24 13:09:31 <km-> What part could they gimp?
Sep 24 13:09:47 <km-> I mean, the processor is fast enough to render realtime graphics translations, I'm pretty sure ulaw or even gsm would be cake
Sep 24 13:09:48 <tric> audio in and out? ;)
Sep 24 13:09:55 <Dougie187> lol
Sep 24 13:10:05 <tric> or, hmm, maybe udp! ;)
Sep 24 13:10:09 <km-> hmm
Sep 24 13:10:24 <km-> that is a good point, if they gimped udp that would make voip pretty un-doable.
Sep 24 13:11:10 <km-> tric: you wrote a voip phone already?  Are you planning to open source it?  If so, can I get a copy?  I'd like to see how you implemented it.
Sep 24 13:11:11 <tric> well, no udp would suck big time for streaming any media
Sep 24 13:11:37 <km-> tric: I was planning on writing one for myself since I have asterisk at the house and using android as a wifi extension :)
Sep 24 13:12:05 <tric> km: i wrote no phone, i wrote a crippled voip/sip client, without support for proxy, and only for using some internal libs here for me thesis. and sadly i had to sign a nda and stuff, so i cannot release any info/source
Sep 24 13:12:10 <spykid> I think that some googler said udp will work
Sep 24 13:12:20 <yakischloba> thats a bunch of fucking shit
Sep 24 13:12:22 <km-> tric: oh, what was your thesis on?
Sep 24 13:12:24 <yakischloba> disabling voip isnt 'open'
Sep 24 13:12:40 <km-> yakischloba: T-Mobile is betting that google is smarter than everyone else.
Sep 24 13:12:48 <km-> yakischloba: don't believe that for a second.
Sep 24 13:12:52 <tric> km: im still writing it, and its about "voip quality on android"
Sep 24 13:12:59 <km-> tric: ah, neat.
Sep 24 13:13:14 <Dougie187> what level thesis?
Sep 24 13:13:26 <km-> yakischloba: there's no quicker way to agitate the deep powers of the internet than for a big multinational corporation going "Nanny Nanny Poo Poo You Can't Do This!"
Sep 24 13:13:35 <tric> i started using mjSIP, but had to change alot, cause performance sucked big time. 10secs for a simple sip msg roundtrip
Sep 24 13:13:40 <yakischloba> km-, yeah of course
Sep 24 13:13:42 <km-> jesus
Sep 24 13:13:45 <tric> dougie: (german) bachelor
Sep 24 13:13:46 <km-> that is tough
Sep 24 13:13:59 <km-> <--- voip engineer
Sep 24 13:14:04 <tric> hehe. well
Sep 24 13:14:08 <Dougie187> thats a pretty intense bachelor thesis.
Sep 24 13:14:18 <km-> yeah, I can't wait to see his PhD :P
Sep 24 13:14:24 <Dougie187> lol if he does one.
Sep 24 13:14:26 <tric> my lib has a 200ms roundtrip now. thats enough for me ;)
Sep 24 13:14:31 <km-> hmm
Sep 24 13:14:39 <km-> roundtrip to a local endpoint?
Sep 24 13:14:42 <tric> i dont think ill ever do a PhD ;)
Sep 24 13:14:44 <tric> yes.
Sep 24 13:14:49 <tric> localhost/emu only.
Sep 24 13:14:50 <km-> how's the jitter?
Sep 24 13:14:59 <km-> oh. emulator.
Sep 24 13:15:03 <km-> I'm sure it'll be faster on native hardware
Sep 24 13:15:08 <tric> pretty bad, but i assume thats some emu fault
Sep 24 13:15:11 <km-> qemu isn't always the fastest.
Sep 24 13:15:20 <tric> me too. but i dont have hw, so i need to use emu ;)
Sep 24 13:15:22 <km-> yeah, I'd wait to see what it does on an actual handset
Sep 24 13:15:50 <km-> once google opens the source to their OS it's over for any protections T-Mobile thinks they've got
Sep 24 13:15:54 <tric> and hw is too late for my thesis. so maybe i gonna play with it a little, but i cannot actually use it
Sep 24 13:16:19 <km-> you might be able to do jitter buffering but something makes me think on the emulator that could be a losing battle
Sep 24 13:17:02 <tric> dougie187: i actually it wasnt intense i think. i had 6 months, and the hardest thing is writing it down on paper ;)
Sep 24 13:17:11 <Dougie187> lol
Sep 24 13:17:21 <Dougie187> well, that does sound like a bachelors thesis then.
Sep 24 13:17:22 <tric> hehe. yeah,thats why i dont use a real jitter buffer atm.
Sep 24 13:17:30 <km-> my "dream" of the app I was going to write was to extend the dialer and call classes such that I could pin a voip path into the class instead of just cell audio
Sep 24 13:17:32 <Dougie187> im working on my masters thesis.
Sep 24 13:18:05 <tric> km: yeah, i dreamed about that aswell. but even the contacts do not support sip info :(
Sep 24 13:18:08 <km-> we'll wait to see the source to see whether that's even possible.
Sep 24 13:18:21 <tric> dougie: whats your thesis on?
Sep 24 13:18:47 <km-> you could extend the contacts class as well I'd imagine.  The hard part is making Android use the extended classes instead of the base classes
Sep 24 13:18:47 <Dougie187> my thesis is going to be comparing finite volume and finite element methods for climate modeling of Greenland.
Sep 24 13:18:57 <tric> and why is writing the text of a masters thesis different to a bachelor?
Sep 24 13:19:06 <km-> Dougie: deep.
Sep 24 13:19:09 <Dougie187> well i have to do actual work for a masters thesis.
Sep 24 13:19:20 <tric> hey, it was work aswell!
Sep 24 13:19:21 <Dougie187> for the bachelors i just had to write the paper and babble about it for 10 minutes.
Sep 24 13:19:45 <km-> sounds like tric had to do a fair bit of work here for his bachelors
Sep 24 13:19:52 <Dougie187> yeah but for bachelors thesis (depending on your school) they don't really care about your results.
Sep 24 13:19:59 <km-> you don't just sneeze on the screen and voip code magically occurs
Sep 24 13:20:13 <tric> well, i have implemented it, writing the paper (prolly near to 80-100 pages) and talk about it 30min. the last part is the easiest i think
Sep 24 13:20:14 <Dougie187> its kinda just so you can see what research is like.
Sep 24 13:20:22 <Dougie187> yeah
Sep 24 13:20:28 <Dougie187> writing the paper takes a long time.
Sep 24 13:20:35 <Dougie187> doing the work is the fun part though.
Sep 24 13:20:37 <tric> dougie: i do care, i dont advance to master. at least not directly
Sep 24 13:20:55 <Dougie187> no not you don't care about the results. The school doesn't care about your results.
Sep 24 13:20:59 <Dougie187> unless they are amazing.
Sep 24 13:21:16 <Dougie187> (the results)
Sep 24 13:21:16 <tric> km: it was my plan todo some work, cause i dont plan to advance, cause of my age ;)
Sep 24 13:21:27 <Dougie187> how old are you?
Sep 24 13:21:31 <tric> hehe, 31
Sep 24 13:21:38 <tric> so im LATE! ;)
Sep 24 13:21:45 <Dougie187> i have some people older than that in my masters program here.
Sep 24 13:21:57 <tric> but i feel like im late ;)
Sep 24 13:22:00 <Dougie187> heh
Sep 24 13:22:12 <Dougie187> there were some 70 year old people in my undergrad classes too
Sep 24 13:22:18 <km-> eh, I only had a year of college
Sep 24 13:23:14 <tric> and, well, my school does care about the result, i need at least a 2 out of 1-6 where 1 is the best to advance to master.
Sep 24 13:23:35 <Dougie187> hmm
Sep 24 13:23:39 <Dougie187> i dont even know what that means.
Sep 24 13:23:39 <Dougie187> lol
Sep 24 13:23:43 <Dougie187> 1-6?
Sep 24 13:23:52 <Dougie187> is that like your grading scale?
Sep 24 13:24:14 <tric> our scale of the results ;)
Sep 24 13:24:29 <Dougie187> so 1-6 is only for your thesis?
Sep 24 13:25:24 <tric> well, both, for my thesis and one for overall, and i need a 2 overall. but i didnt choose my thesis for a good result. i wanted to do interessting stuff
Sep 24 13:25:47 <tric> and something so ppl will at least impress a little
Sep 24 13:25:47 <Dougie187> cool
Sep 24 13:26:07 <tric> err something so ppl will be impressed a little
Sep 24 13:27:20 <tric> looks my english (writing) sucks today ;)
Sep 24 13:27:30 <Dougie187> eh it happens.
Sep 24 13:27:41 <Dougie187> so what do you want to do after you graduate?
Sep 24 13:29:01 <yakischloba> what are YOU going to do dougi?
Sep 24 13:29:52 <tric> dougie: getting money for writing sw and sw design
Sep 24 13:29:53 <Dougie187> well
Sep 24 13:29:59 <Dougie187> im going to get my ph.d. after my masters.
Sep 24 13:30:03 <Dougie187> and then probably a postdoc.
Sep 24 13:30:09 <tric> prolly java/android stuff
Sep 24 13:30:13 <Dougie187> and then probably work in a national lab or something for a while
Sep 24 13:30:22 <yakischloba> hmm
Sep 24 13:30:26 <tric> actually i would love android stuff, but thats gonna be hard here in .de
Sep 24 13:30:28 <Dougie187> Sounds like fun. so you want to try to do mobile dev stuff?
Sep 24 13:30:35 <yakischloba> all that edumacation cost a lot of money eh
Sep 24 13:30:46 <Dougie187> well you can always come to the us. heh
Sep 24 13:30:55 <Dougie187> yakischloba: naw, i get paid to do it.
Sep 24 13:30:56 <km-> land of fading opportunity
Sep 24 13:31:03 <yakischloba> Dougie187, nice
Sep 24 13:31:14 <Dougie187> yeah, it makes it easier.
Sep 24 13:31:21 <tric> hehe. i guess my girlfriend wount like that, but well. maybe 1 or 2 years. if someone wants me over there
Sep 24 13:31:24 <km-> last thing we need is more IT people in a contraction
Sep 24 13:31:57 <tric> haha
Sep 24 13:33:14 <tric> is it currently tough to get a IT job over there?
Sep 24 13:33:29 <km-> it really depends who you ask and what region
Sep 24 13:33:37 <yakischloba> and what you want to be doing
Sep 24 13:34:07 <km-> I just got promoted up to R&D at the company I work for, and they're trying to fill my position -- the boss has gotten 50 resumes, lots of them with masters degrees, to do systems administration.
Sep 24 13:34:16 <km-> when the masters degrees come to do nocmonkey, you know it's a tough market.
Sep 24 13:35:21 <tric> whats R&D?
Sep 24 13:35:48 <Dougie187> Research and Development
Sep 24 13:37:10 <tric> ic
Sep 24 13:38:56 <gambler> km- join #sip-communicator if you want to talk about open source VOIP
Sep 24 13:43:34 <Dougie187> good morning romainguy
Sep 24 13:43:43 <romainguy> yo
Sep 24 13:43:47 <km-> gambler: thanks, I just might do that.
Sep 24 13:44:32 <Dougie187> did you guys have a big android party last night romainguy?
Sep 24 13:44:54 <romainguy> I don't know, I'm on vacatiob :)
Sep 24 13:45:39 <Dougie187> lolo
Sep 24 13:45:54 <tric> romainguy: so no emu 1.0 / qemu help from you? -qemu isnt working here
Sep 24 13:46:07 <romainguy> vacation :))
Sep 24 13:46:43 <tric> but you are here! so no real vacation. ;)
Sep 24 13:46:46 <unix_lappy> is android to work exclusively on HTC devices as per the contract with Tmobile?
Sep 24 13:47:09 <unix_lappy> tric: i think the real test is how many lines of code he's written whilst on vaca.
Sep 24 13:47:18 <DD94300> Is it possible to replace native application in SDK 1.0?
Sep 24 13:47:32 <romainguy> unix_lappy: no, that would be contrary to the idea of Android
Sep 24 13:47:41 <pjv> DD94300, sure
Sep 24 13:48:08 <pjv> DD94300, all only in java ofcourse
Sep 24 13:48:16 <Dougie187> unix_lappy: as per the contract with Tmobile?
Sep 24 13:48:49 <unix_lappy> Dougie187: yea i remember hearing the word exclusive in context with HTC and google from Tmobile yesterday.
Sep 24 13:49:02 <Dougie187> no.
Sep 24 13:49:09 <Dougie187> They are not the only members of the OHA either.
Sep 24 13:49:20 <Dougie187> Sprint is getting a phone by the end of the year with android on it too.
Sep 24 13:49:25 <unix_lappy> obviously Android wants to be as ubiquitous as possible, but with this initial launch with Tmobile are we to see only HTC devices.
Sep 24 13:49:25 <Dougie187> and samsung is making devices.
Sep 24 13:49:36 <tric> unix: prolly the g1 is exclusive to tmobile
Sep 24 13:49:38 <Dougie187> with the initial launch.. yes
Sep 24 13:49:48 <DD94300> bez last time i asked this question to Google , they told me that it would be possible in SDK 1.0.
Sep 24 13:49:52 <Dougie187> the initial launch is only going to bring one phone.
Sep 24 13:50:14 <unix_lappy> heh, I wonder how long I have to wait before I find a handset I actually like :-P
Sep 24 13:50:17 <Dougie187> but you might be able to use android on other phones..
Sep 24 13:50:28 <pjv> DD94300, it's not very hard in any SDK: just write your own browser for instance
Sep 24 13:50:39 <DD94300> i know that
Sep 24 13:50:40 <tric> dd94300: when the source is released, you should be able to replace everything, but i dont know if you should call it android after that ;)
Sep 24 13:50:48 <Dougie187> hey romainguy: do you have a g1 yet?
Sep 24 13:50:52 <DD94300> but what about replacing home screen
Sep 24 13:51:06 <pjv> DD94300, the source code of Android might help to know which intents are important (the interfacing) and such though
Sep 24 13:51:27 <DD94300> which is not yet available, rt?
Sep 24 13:51:30 <pjv> Dougie187, didnt watch the video yet?
Sep 24 13:51:36 <Dougie187> ?
Sep 24 13:51:40 <Dougie187> which video?.
Sep 24 13:51:48 <Dougie187> i've seen a lot of them.
Sep 24 13:51:51 <pjv> of the Android team proposing their small contributions
Sep 24 13:51:56 <romainguy> Dougie187: er... yes? what do you think we've been using for development?
Sep 24 13:51:59 <romainguy> :))
Sep 24 13:52:14 <Dougie187> romainguy: something similar to plusminus_'s dev "handset". lol
Sep 24 13:52:25 <romainguy> DD94300: you can replace the home screen easily
Sep 24 13:52:26 <pjv> DD94300, home screen might be a bit difficult but when the code becomes available soon that will change
Sep 24 13:52:31 <pjv> oh
Sep 24 13:53:00 <tric> romainguy: what about the phone and sms apps?
Sep 24 13:53:06 <romainguy> SMS yes
Sep 24 13:53:15 <romainguy> the Phone app, I don't know if you can in 1.0
Sep 24 13:53:19 <DD94300> thanks pjv
Sep 24 13:53:32 <romainguy> DD94300: replacing Home is very easy, and there's a sample showing how to do it in the SDK
Sep 24 13:54:48 <pjv> romainguy, the library/bookshelf app you showed, is that much more than a list with a bookshelf background image?
Sep 24 13:55:09 <romainguy> it's a GridView
Sep 24 13:55:19 <DD94300> romainguy, I have tried that. But in addition, I want to add my application to the home screen as well.
Sep 24 13:55:26 <romainguy> and there's some trickery with scroll listeners and animations
Sep 24 13:55:47 <romainguy> DD94300: what do you mean? all applications show in the home screen
Sep 24 13:56:59 <pjv> romainguy, are you serious about the app or was it just a small prototype?
Sep 24 13:57:11 <romainguy> the bookshelf?
Sep 24 13:57:11 <DD94300> romainguy, I create my home screen and then I want to register application so they can appear on home screen as well. Currently I am not able to register any mine or native application to the replaced home screen.
Sep 24 13:57:15 <pjv> yes
Sep 24 13:57:39 <romainguy> it's a demo to show how to create fancy looking Android apps with deferred loading, optimized scroll performances, network access, custom image rendering, etc.
Sep 24 13:57:57 <romainguy> (if you look closely you can see shading and lighting applied on the book covers to simulate depth)
Sep 24 13:58:07 <pjv> it's not available anywhere is it?
Sep 24 13:58:17 <romainguy> not right now
Sep 24 13:58:24 <romainguy> I didn't have time to finish it before I left for my vacation
Sep 24 13:58:54 <pjv> but there is a good chance you might open source it?
Sep 24 13:59:10 <romainguy> pjv: that's the goal, just like Photostream
Sep 24 13:59:48 <romainguy> (or Panoramio or Divide and Conquer, etc.)
Sep 24 14:00:35 <pjv> actually from the video it looked nicely done but not too complicated
Sep 24 14:00:58 <pjv> where did you find the background image? must not have been easy to find anything suitable?
Sep 24 14:01:26 <tric> romainguy: you have any comment about the no voip thing in http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/09/three-years-and.html? whats removed so voip isnt possible?
Sep 24 14:02:39 <romainguy> I don't know anything about VoIP
Sep 24 14:02:51 <romainguy> pjv: I drew the background image
Sep 24 14:04:12 <tric> hmm, so you dont know anything about things that were removed for voip. no news are good news ;)
Sep 24 14:04:48 <pjv> I'm actually in the inception phase of a similar (open source) app
Sep 24 14:04:51 <Dougie187> tric: even if he did, i would assume he wouldn't be able to tell you what was removed. that would make it easy to look for what to implement when it was open sourced.
Sep 24 14:05:08 <pjv> so it came a bit as a surprise to see something like that
Sep 24 14:05:36 <tric> dougie: well, i will be easy anyway. problem is that you would have to flash a new fw
Sep 24 14:05:40 <pjv> a bit broader than a collection for only books though
Sep 24 14:06:30 <Dougie187> tric: true, but i would think they wouldn't be able to assist in the process.
Sep 24 14:06:40 <tric> true
Sep 24 14:08:05 <scatterp> where can i get the g1 android rom?
Sep 24 14:11:29 <ulmen> on the flash module inside the g1, butt odds are you don't have one so then the answer is nowhere =)
Sep 24 14:14:34 <gambler> pjv tell us about it
Sep 24 14:14:48 <DD94300> Is android.provider.Telephony package has been removed from new SDK?
Sep 24 14:16:10 <pjv> gambler, you interested in an open source project?
Sep 24 14:17:09 <gambler> pjv, join #sip-communicator ...the most people in there in awhile
Sep 24 14:17:38 <pjv> just a sec
Sep 24 14:23:10 <summatusmentis> ulmen: what does the emulator boot from?
Sep 24 14:24:49 <ulmen> summatusmentis: kernel, ramdisk image, system image
Sep 24 14:25:27 <ulmen> and i'd bet the files on theese images are not identical with the ones on the real phone
Sep 24 14:25:44 <ulmen> like some are missing, some are changed, some are extra
Sep 24 14:26:59 <summatusmentis> ulmen: I assumed they wouldn't be the same on the phone.
Sep 24 14:27:20 <summatusmentis> but if you just want something to base stuff off of, the emulator might get somone what they wanted
Sep 24 14:28:22 <ulmen> but it still does not make the emulator the "g1 android rom", which is what he asked for
Sep 24 14:28:51 <summatusmentis> ulmen: oh, that's true
Sep 24 14:29:40 <scatterp> ulmen where can i get the emulator ?
Sep 24 14:30:24 <ulmen> http://code.google.com/android/
Sep 24 14:30:39 <jasta> hey Dougie187
Sep 24 14:30:42 <Dougie187> hey jasta
Sep 24 14:30:44 <Dougie187> hows it going/.
Sep 24 14:30:56 <Dougie187> you see the $400 for a contract free g1?
Sep 24 14:30:58 <jasta> pretty ok, just getting ready for work
Sep 24 14:31:18 <jasta> i had heard something about that but i wasnt sure if that was official news or just some junk someone made up
Sep 24 14:31:23 <Dougie187> one sec.
Sep 24 14:31:25 <Dougie187> ill grab the link
Sep 24 14:32:04 <Dougie187> http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/23/t-mobiles-cto-on-g1-unlocking-and-tethering-plus-a-few-detai/
Sep 24 14:33:03 <jasta> oh yes, if this is true, i am quite excited.  although i need ot know what UMTS frequencies it supports
Sep 24 14:33:12 <jasta> i dont want to take an unlocked phone over to AT&T if 3G won't work :)
Sep 24 14:33:47 <Dougie187> heh true.
Sep 24 14:33:53 <Dougie187> but i thought it was pretty cool sounding.
Sep 24 14:33:56 <zhobbs> I heard it won't work on att 3g
Sep 24 14:34:10 <Dougie187> unlocking and tethering won't be destroyed.
Sep 24 14:34:13 <ulmen> spec tells 1700 + 2100 MHz
Sep 24 14:34:13 <summatusmentis> jasta: there was something that said what UMTS frequencies it was using, but I don't recall them
Sep 24 14:34:23 <ulmen> http://www.htc.com/www/product/g1/specification.html
Sep 24 14:35:30 <jasta> well yeah, so there's that.
Sep 24 14:35:44 <jasta> guess i'll have to join t-mobile then.  piece of crap.
Sep 24 14:35:54 <zhobbs> think that's a hardware thing, or firmware thing?
Sep 24 14:36:01 <Dougie187> or something else.
Sep 24 14:36:18 <Dougie187> are any other carriers in that range?
Sep 24 14:36:24 <summatusmentis> zhobbs: generally hardware? I would think?
Sep 24 14:36:32 <summatusmentis> probably directly modem related
Sep 24 14:36:56 <jasta> Dougie187: not in the US.  although GSM/EDGE would work on the phone with ATG&T
Sep 24 14:36:57 <jasta> AT&T
Sep 24 14:37:23 <yakischloba> :(
Sep 24 14:37:26 <jasta> i'm still in the middle of a flippin contract with AT&T hehe
Sep 24 14:37:56 <yakischloba> anyone transferred numbers between US carriers? is it a PITA?..
Sep 24 14:37:57 <jasta> you know what's bollocks?  all these people are gonna sign up for AT&T to get the first android device, then before their contract is up sprint is gonna get the second device
Sep 24 14:38:08 <jasta> and so everyone will have to pay the massive fine to jump ship to sprint
Sep 24 14:38:17 <summatusmentis> jasta: I'm just waiting till Sprint gets it
Sep 24 14:38:19 <summatusmentis> :)
Sep 24 14:38:21 <jasta> what a racket!
Sep 24 14:38:31 <jasta> yakischloba: its pretty easy.
Sep 24 14:38:33 <summatusmentis> yakischloba: it's supposed to be easy... I don't actually know though
Sep 24 14:38:40 <yakischloba> whats involved?
Sep 24 14:38:42 <Dougie187> me too
Sep 24 14:38:48 <zhobbs> yakischloba: a form and a few days
Sep 24 14:38:53 <yakischloba> oh. not bad.
Sep 24 14:38:55 <jasta> yakischloba: submitting some paperwork and waiting a while
Sep 24 14:38:56 <summatusmentis> you tell your company that you want to port, and they do it :)
Sep 24 14:41:28 <Dougie187> i wonder what sprint's android phone is gonna look like.
Sep 24 14:41:54 <spykid> xdd
Sep 24 14:42:23 <yakischloba> damn grocery store was closed this morning
Sep 24 14:42:33 <yakischloba> not only am i hungry, im falling asleep without any caffeine
Sep 24 14:43:22 <jasta> wow.  i just compared side-by-side some specs of this G1 phone
Sep 24 14:43:30 <jasta> it has *worse* battery life than my bad MOTO Q9H
Sep 24 14:43:36 <Dougie187> lol
Sep 24 14:43:41 <yakischloba> no surprise there :/
Sep 24 14:43:44 <Dougie187> 5 talk time and 130 standby.
Sep 24 14:43:48 <Dougie187> right?
Sep 24 14:43:51 <jasta> i have to charge my Q9H every flippin day or it dies
Sep 24 14:43:58 <jasta> i guess android will be no different
Sep 24 14:44:13 <Dougie187> and once you throw on a few poorly crafted apps its going to die like crazy
Sep 24 14:44:26 <summatusmentis> Dougie187: I'm hoping it'll be better spec'd than the G1
Sep 24 14:45:07 <jasta> argh, its heavier, too.
Sep 24 14:45:07 <Dougie187> I heard it was supposed to have more features.
Sep 24 14:45:27 <summatusmentis> Dougie187: 'more features' meaning what?
Sep 24 14:45:31 <Dougie187> ionno
Sep 24 14:45:36 <Dougie187> it was a very vague.
Sep 24 14:45:39 <Dougie187> report*
Sep 24 14:45:49 <zhobbs> hmmm, jad isn't working with new sdk
Sep 24 14:45:54 <summatusmentis> yeh, I haven't heard anything about Sprint's Android offering
Sep 24 14:46:08 <Dougie187> me either. just that its supposed to be out by the end of the year.
Sep 24 14:46:16 <Dougie187> and the phone will have more features then the tmobile one.
Sep 24 14:47:01 <summatusmentis> which I'm ok with. I wonder what full pricing will be (just signed up with Sprint in June, will need to buy it full price)
Sep 24 14:47:11 <Dougie187> did you get on the Sero plan?
Sep 24 14:47:31 <summatusmentis> I did, like a week before it ended
Sep 24 14:47:39 <Dougie187> nice.
Sep 24 14:47:45 <Dougie187> its pretty sweet
Sep 24 14:48:15 <summatusmentis> it is, and perfect for a college student
Sep 24 14:48:21 <Dougie187> hell yeah
Sep 24 14:48:22 <summatusmentis> I bought a centro though :(
Sep 24 14:48:31 <Dougie187> or a married couple like my wife and i.
Sep 24 14:48:44 <Dougie187> its soooo cheap.
Sep 24 14:48:49 <summatusmentis> well, it's perfect for anyone, but yeah
Sep 24 14:49:01 <summatusmentis> I'm not happy with my centro, it's kinda contrained
Sep 24 14:49:02 <Dougie187> im hoping they don't have a plan restriction with the android phone,
Sep 24 14:49:05 <Dougie187> but im sure they will
Sep 24 14:49:33 <jasta> you know what confuses me...
Sep 24 14:49:43 <Dougie187> whats that?
Sep 24 14:49:47 <summatusmentis> Dougie187: why would they, they don't for the HTC Touch Diamond
Sep 24 14:49:52 <jasta> google keeps making mention that they've made major strides by convincing the carriers and the like that openness is really good for them in the long run
Sep 24 14:50:06 <jasta> but if its this major revolutionary challenge, how exactly did Microsoft do it so easily with Windows Mobile?
Sep 24 14:50:10 <Dougie187> summatusmentis: yeah they do. its not as strict as the instinct, but they have plan requirements.
Sep 24 14:50:13 <jasta> Windows Mobile is exactly as open as Android is currently.
Sep 24 14:50:37 <jasta> except of course that you need non-free tools to development for it.
Sep 24 14:50:38 <summatusmentis> jasta: don't you have to buy the WinMo SDK?
Sep 24 14:50:49 <jasta> but from the carrier's perspective, it's all the same.
Sep 24 14:51:08 <summatusmentis> maybe from the carrier's perspective, but the OS itself is more open on Android
Sep 24 14:51:16 <jasta> summatusmentis: how so?
Sep 24 14:51:45 <summatusmentis> jasta: good luck getting drivers to the hardware of a WinMo phone
Sep 24 14:51:49 <Dougie187> summatusmentis: HTC Diamond Mail in rebate "requires an Everything plan, Talk/Message/Data Share plan, Data Premier add-on or PRO Pack add-on."
Sep 24 14:52:01 <jasta> summatusmentis: right but that openness has nothing to do with convincing carriers.
Sep 24 14:52:22 <summatusmentis> Dougie187: right, but they're not restricting all out purchases to new plans, you can put it on a SERO plan
Sep 24 14:52:23 <jasta> summatusmentis: the carriers apprehension must come from consumers being able to do "whatever they want" with devices, and for that fear Windows Mobile can already do it.
Sep 24 14:52:47 <summatusmentis> jasta: it does, carriers are VERY closed about the hardware capabilities
Sep 24 14:52:56 <Dougie187> summatusmentis: true. i just hope the mail in rebate doesnt make you switch to the new stupid sero plan.
Sep 24 14:53:10 <summatusmentis> Dougie187: I'm in a contract, won't matter for me :)
Sep 24 14:53:17 <Dougie187> im out of one.
Sep 24 14:53:25 <Dougie187> been waiting for an andorid phone to get a new contract.
Sep 24 14:53:36 <Dougie187> s/andorid/android/g
Sep 24 14:53:36 <infobot> Dougie187 meant: been waiting for an android phone to get a new contract.
Sep 24 14:53:42 <summatusmentis> even the new SERO plan might be ok, $50 vs $30
Sep 24 14:53:51 <Dougie187> its 60
Sep 24 14:54:04 <Dougie187> its twice as much for the same plan.
Sep 24 14:54:10 <Dougie187> but you get black berry stuff added into it
Sep 24 14:54:20 <summatusmentis> it's 60?
Sep 24 14:54:24 <Dougie187> yeah
Sep 24 14:54:27 <Dougie187> http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/expired-deals/680568
Sep 24 14:55:00 <summatusmentis> oh, $59.99, that's why I got confused
Sep 24 14:55:30 <Dougie187> yeah
Sep 24 14:55:51 <Dougie187> i guess its cheaper then if you have a BB device before.
Sep 24 14:56:03 <Dougie187> but its stupid to make everyone pay for BB services even if you don't have a BB
Sep 24 14:56:03 <summatusmentis> probably
Sep 24 14:56:16 <summatusmentis> and it you care about Sprint TV or Navigation
Sep 24 14:56:19 <Dougie187> BB services were 40 bucks before. so if you have a sero plan and a BB it was 70 bucks
Sep 24 14:56:27 <Dougie187> true
Sep 24 14:57:16 <summatusmentis> but yeah, now that we're wildly OT :)
Sep 24 14:57:50 <Dougie187> im excited to see the sprint android phone though
Sep 24 14:58:05 <summatusmentis> me too, I wish there were more rumors
Sep 24 14:58:05 <Dougie187> im half afraid its not going to be a touch screen though...
Sep 24 14:58:46 <Dougie187> this is the last thing i read about it
Sep 24 14:58:46 <Dougie187> http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/17/t-mobile-g1-said-to-be-landing-october-17th-sprint-android-phon/
Sep 24 14:59:17 <Dougie187> i misread "other functionality" for "more features"
Sep 24 14:59:26 <summatusmentis> yeah, I saw that on BGR
Sep 24 14:59:39 <summatusmentis> I want touchscreen... I _need_ touchscreen
Sep 24 14:59:49 <Dougie187> i want a touch screen too.
Sep 24 14:59:58 * jasta is having a hard time figuring out what to do
Sep 24 14:59:58 <Dougie187> maybe it will be a kick ass multi touch phone.
Sep 24 15:00:03 <jasta> im in the middle of an AT&T contract hehe
Sep 24 15:00:08 <Dougie187> when does it end jasta?
Sep 24 15:00:16 <jasta> like 4 or 5 months
Sep 24 15:00:18 <summatusmentis> multi-touch? Doesn't apple have that patent?
Sep 24 15:00:25 <jasta> but really, i dont want to cancel it.  i have a life-time 15% discount on my account
Sep 24 15:00:28 <jasta> which i'd lose :(
Sep 24 15:00:28 <Dougie187> id say wait and see what the sprint phone looks like.
Sep 24 15:00:39 <Dougie187> personally.
Sep 24 15:00:44 <Dougie187> especially since you don;t like the way this one looks.
Sep 24 15:00:49 <summatusmentis> jasta: can you get the G1 withouth data?
Sep 24 15:01:02 <jasta> why would you want to do that?
Sep 24 15:01:06 <summatusmentis> because if you just want one to play with, you could maybe get a flex-pay plan for it
Sep 24 15:01:19 <jasta> i doubt you can do that, besides that would be silly anyway
Sep 24 15:01:36 <jasta> i might just buy it and pay for two phone plans for a while
Sep 24 15:01:38 <Dougie187> jasta: i would wait and look at sprints. the 1GB cap on tmo is killer.
Sep 24 15:02:09 <yakischloba> it will be interesting to see how fast you go through bandwidth under normal usage, without things like downloading media
Sep 24 15:02:20 <yakischloba> i guess some of the premise is that downloading media _IS_ normal usage
Sep 24 15:02:20 <Dougie187> you probably wouldn't.
Sep 24 15:02:25 <yakischloba> but I won't be using it for that
Sep 24 15:02:27 <Dougie187> i would think if you tethered though..
Sep 24 15:02:35 <yakischloba> oh of course.
Sep 24 15:02:49 <Dougie187> people are gonna tether and bittorrent.
Sep 24 15:02:49 <Dougie187> lol
Sep 24 15:03:17 <gary|> hey, when making a gui for an android app, are there methods in the SDK for that or do we use the java methods?
Sep 24 15:03:27 <yakischloba> lol?
Sep 24 15:03:39 <jasta> gary|: come again?
Sep 24 15:03:57 <yakischloba> gary|: i suggest even glancing at some documentation about it
Sep 24 15:04:07 <gary|> for GUI stuff, like buttons, boxes, etc, are there methods in the SDK for that, or do we use the java built in methods?
Sep 24 15:04:13 <gary|> yakischloba: I did
Sep 24 15:04:48 <jasta> gary|: we don't understand what you mean by "methods in the SDK"
Sep 24 15:04:54 <Dougie187> did you even look at the api?
Sep 24 15:05:03 <gary|> yes...
Sep 24 15:05:07 <Dougie187> or even play with the dev tools in the emulator?
Sep 24 15:05:25 <jasta> or for that matter, i don't know what you mean by "java built in methods"
Sep 24 15:05:25 <gary|> yes, but only the basic ones
Sep 24 15:05:29 <gary|> ...
Sep 24 15:05:30 <yakischloba> then you would see that just about everything you use to create GUI stuff is included in the SDK
Sep 24 15:05:42 <gary|> thank you, thats all i needed to hear
Sep 24 15:07:46 <Dougie187> i love the whole syncing thing in the G1 too
Sep 24 15:07:52 <Dougie187> thats gonna kick ass
Sep 24 15:07:52 <yakischloba> eh?
Sep 24 15:07:57 <yakischloba> what syncing
Sep 24 15:07:59 <Dougie187> how it syncs all your contacts and stuff
Sep 24 15:08:03 <Dougie187> and your calendar
Sep 24 15:08:07 <yakischloba> oh, you mean to google services
Sep 24 15:08:08 <yakischloba> yeah
Sep 24 15:08:24 <Dougie187> its going to be awesome.
Sep 24 15:08:29 <Dougie187> and push gmail is going to be sweet too
Sep 24 15:09:39 <summatusmentis> Push gmail happens now
Sep 24 15:09:59 <summatusmentis> and I'll bet the calendar is just a CalDAV client
Sep 24 15:10:24 <summatusmentis> syncing contacts/push gmail can happen now, if you're using the right client
Sep 24 15:10:47 * summatusmentis gets "push" gmail on his centro, it's just IMAP IDLE
Sep 24 15:10:56 <Dougie187> heh
Sep 24 15:11:00 <ulmen>  /me misses good old standard syncml syncing
Sep 24 15:11:01 <Dougie187> but this way it comes in it.
Sep 24 15:11:02 <yakischloba> summatusmentis: i think the point is that it will be nice to have it integrated smoothly into the phone, for those of us that enjoy google services
Sep 24 15:11:28 <Dougie187> and i for one, and one of the many people who enjoy google services.
Sep 24 15:11:29 <summatusmentis> yakischloba: I definitely agree. I guess my point is you can do it on other phones
Sep 24 15:11:42 <summatusmentis> I definitely agree, I wish my centor had a gmail app
Sep 24 15:11:44 <summatusmentis> centro*
Sep 24 15:11:47 <yakischloba> yeah of course. these things are not revolutionary technologies in and of themselves ;)
Sep 24 15:12:24 <summatusmentis> and I have been looking for OTA calendar syncing
Sep 24 15:12:39 <summatusmentis> I'm currently faking it using CalDAV -> iCal, then hotsync to centro :)
Sep 24 15:12:41 <wastrel> i have my own domain name and domain email
Sep 24 15:12:57 <yakischloba> I might actually start using the calendar if its on the g1
Sep 24 15:13:00 <wastrel> and my own email server
Sep 24 15:13:11 <wastrel> i want to use my own email :/
Sep 24 15:13:17 <yakischloba> do it!
Sep 24 15:13:24 <summatusmentis> yakischloba: google calendar is better than a stupid enterprise oracle calenar that my school provides
Sep 24 15:13:39 <yakischloba> heh
Sep 24 15:13:41 <yakischloba> most calendars suck
Sep 24 15:14:00 <summatusmentis> yes
Sep 24 15:14:08 <Dougie187> can't you use your own domain and email server with gmail?
Sep 24 15:14:18 <yakischloba> Dougie187, yeah
Sep 24 15:14:31 <Dougie187> thats what i thought.
Sep 24 15:14:46 <Dougie187> i was arguing someone yesterday who didn't like the lack of exchange support
Sep 24 15:14:49 <yakischloba> I did it at my last job. I just used their servers though
Sep 24 15:14:52 <yakischloba> it worked pretty smooth
Sep 24 15:15:01 <Dougie187> and i said it would be easy to set it up if you were an experienced sys admin
Sep 24 15:15:12 <summatusmentis> I think the issue is that exchange is the industry standard
Sep 24 15:15:21 <Dougie187> but it sucks.
Sep 24 15:15:21 <summatusmentis> and so they won't want to have to change infrastructure
Sep 24 15:16:01 <summatusmentis> granted, doesn't mean people will change
Sep 24 15:16:20 <Dougie187> true, but this is such a better option, in my opinion.
Sep 24 15:16:51 <summatusmentis> the idea of google having all of my information scares me in a big-brother sort of way, but I agree, it's a good option
Sep 24 15:17:00 <Dougie187> heh
Sep 24 15:19:00 <wastrel> i'd have to move my domain to google and host my email there
Sep 24 15:19:17 <wastrel> or so i thought
Sep 24 15:19:24 <Dougie187> i dont think you would need to..
Sep 24 15:19:29 <Dougie187> i think there are ways around that.
Sep 24 15:20:35 <km-> I think I've changed my mind
Sep 24 15:20:40 <km-> going to wait for the javelin or the bold
Sep 24 15:21:22 <summatusmentis> km-: they won't have android... </singsong voice that makes you feel bad about your decision)
Sep 24 15:21:27 <summatusmentis> s/)/>/
Sep 24 15:21:27 <infobot> summatusmentis meant: km-: they won't have android... </singsong voice that makes you feel bad about your decision>
Sep 24 15:21:52 <km-> See, the thing is, I'm really annoyed about this "we're going to not allow voip"
Sep 24 15:22:10 <unix_lappy> km-: i think the android platform is fine, i think google is having to deal with traditional telecom nonsense.
Sep 24 15:22:34 <summatusmentis> km-: I guess I don't understand why voip is a big deal... you'll need to have a voice plan right?
Sep 24 15:22:35 <km-> I was extremely happy with the idea of android until I heard about all this bullshit.
Sep 24 15:22:38 <unix_lappy> devices that are sub par paired with restricted services that dont make use of the devices / platforms functionality.
Sep 24 15:22:43 <km-> summa, the problem isn't voip per se
Sep 24 15:22:51 <km-> it's the fact that they're touting "open" and then closing it.
Sep 24 15:23:10 <km-> Ooh, Wow, look at our *OPEN* phone (small print: you can't do everything you want with it, so it's not really open)
Sep 24 15:23:26 <summatusmentis> km-: are they actually saying "no voip" or are they saying "no voip _right now_" (as in, developers, make it happen0
Sep 24 15:23:35 <unix_lappy> km-: it's not an "open" device.
Sep 24 15:23:41 <Dougie187> its not even official though
Sep 24 15:23:42 <unix_lappy> it's an open platform that runs on mobile devices.
Sep 24 15:23:43 <km-> they're saying T-Mobile is specifically requiring them to disallow voip
Sep 24 15:23:46 <Dougie187> noone official said "No Voip"
Sep 24 15:24:03 <km-> dougie: that goes against what I read this morning, let me find where I read it again
Sep 24 15:24:06 <summatusmentis> Dougie187: they did say "no skype"
Sep 24 15:24:23 <summatusmentis> also, TMob's 3G is very very new
Sep 24 15:24:25 <Dougie187> all i say about no skype was some unofficial blog post.
Sep 24 15:24:29 <km-> When I talked to Cole Brodman, the CTO of T-Mobile, after the event about what would stop something like Skype from designing a program that could run on the phone, negating the need for a massive voice plan, he said he had "worked with Google" to make sure Android couldn't run VOIP. "We want to be open in a way that consumers can rely on," is the way Brodman put it to me.
Sep 24 15:24:35 <km-> (via wired)
Sep 24 15:25:00 <km-> unix_lappy: well, it's not the hardware that's blocking voip.
Sep 24 15:25:05 <km-> unix_lappy: it's the software on that device.
Sep 24 15:25:06 <swetland> nor the software
Sep 24 15:25:22 <km-> this quote specifically says "to make sure Android couldn't run VOIP"
Sep 24 15:25:22 <swetland> there's no magic anti-voip technology in 1.0
Sep 24 15:25:28 <Dougie187> but that is something (as trig mentioned) that people can implement after it is opened.
Sep 24 15:25:37 <swetland> not exactly sure what mr brodman was talking about there
Sep 24 15:25:58 <km-> swetland: so you can speak authoritatively on googles plans?
Sep 24 15:26:39 <km-> I mean, it's all heresay here, but this is bad fucking press for you guys if there aren't corrections to some of these rumors now.  It's past the time to be cagey, the announcement is made, and people are choosing sides
Sep 24 15:27:04 <yakischloba> lol
Sep 24 15:27:34 <swetland> km: I'm sure things'll get straightened out.  I certainly am not a google spokesperson, but I can tell you that the 1.0 software does not have anything in it specifically to prevent VOIP
Sep 24 15:28:00 <km-> I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just know that I'm very encouraged by android, but it's got to be what it claims it will be for me to leave a proven platform
Sep 24 15:28:36 <swetland> I certainly understand your concerns
Sep 24 15:29:16 * summatusmentis checks to see if google is still hiring 'mobile software engineers'
Sep 24 15:29:22 <km-> take heart in the fact at least that I'm now on my 5th blackberry and am thinking of pre-ordering, but I'm spooked by what sounds like hype-retraction.
Sep 24 15:31:23 <summatusmentis> I've got a friend all excited about the Blackberry Storm(or whatever) coming out soonish
Sep 24 15:32:31 <km-> eh, I'm not too impressed with what I hear about the storm so far
Sep 24 15:32:37 <km-> but I would definitely get a bold, hands down
Sep 24 15:32:45 <km-> almost considered buying one from europe to get one
Sep 24 15:33:29 <summatusmentis> I'm almost considering dropping out of school to apply to work at Google :-p
Sep 24 15:33:46 <jeffb> continue your education. :P
Sep 24 15:33:49 <jasta> drop out to *apply*?
Sep 24 15:33:53 <jasta> that's a bold move ;)
Sep 24 15:34:00 <summatusmentis> jasta: touche
Sep 24 15:34:01 <cbeust_> summatusmentis: that would be a terrible idea
Sep 24 15:34:11 <summatusmentis> I'd probably apply, then drop out :-P
Sep 24 15:34:16 <summatusmentis> cbeust_: I know, mostly a joke
Sep 24 15:34:28 <cbeust_> Stay in school, try to get an internship, but finish your educatino
Sep 24 15:34:34 <summatusmentis> my summer of code project got me all excited though
Sep 24 15:34:37 <cbeust_> Ok good to hear
Sep 24 15:35:01 <cbeust_> We're always happy to get enthusiastic candidates, but dropping out of school won't get you much sympathy here :)
Sep 24 15:35:13 <jeffb> i have a SoC shirt somewhere, its about 5 sizes too small :P
Sep 24 15:35:26 * jasta has a skateboarding android shirt somewhere :)
Sep 24 15:35:31 <summatusmentis> cbeust_: :-D
Sep 24 15:35:47 <jeffb> haha jasta, that's a fun one :)
Sep 24 15:35:54 <summatusmentis> jeffb: unless I start gaining enormous amounts of weight, I don't expect to be growing anymore :-P
Sep 24 15:36:28 <jeffb> summatusmentis: i think its a small, which was then washed in hot water so it shrunk to toddler sizes :P
Sep 24 15:36:36 <summatusmentis> oh god :)
Sep 24 15:36:51 <summatusmentis> cbeust_: yeah, I'm on the list to be notified of internships :)
Sep 24 15:38:55 <cbeust_> Good, internships are a good way toward getting a job, we do conversions all the time
Sep 24 15:39:40 <summatusmentis> you're an engineer?
Sep 24 15:39:59 <cbeust_> Yes
Sep 24 15:40:06 <summatusmentis> cool cool
Sep 24 15:40:46 <DD94300> when using service, does onCreate() always creates new process?
Sep 24 15:41:43 <cbeust_> It never does, it just gets called when the service is created.
Sep 24 15:41:43 <zhobbs> DD94300: depends if it's a remote or local service I think
Sep 24 15:42:02 <zhobbs> remote services actually run in a different process
Sep 24 15:42:37 <swetland> cbeust: I think that's one of our big hiring defects -- the obsession with degrees ^^
Sep 24 15:43:13 <cbeust_> swetland: I haven't seen this obsession at all
Sep 24 15:43:15 <swetland> but I will agree that practical experience (internships, real world projects, etc) are highly valuable
Sep 24 15:43:42 <unix_lappy> heh, in a company where the "two" founders dropped out of their Ph.D programs....
Sep 24 15:43:43 <summatusmentis> swetland: I tend to agree that getting a degree is a good thing, if only because it opens doors to things like real world projects, internshipts, etc.
Sep 24 15:44:07 <DD94300> i still very confuse about onCreate and onStart when talking about service, can somebody give me some highlights?
Sep 24 15:44:16 <swetland> oh I don't advise dropping out. lots to learn.
Sep 24 15:45:00 <swetland> just saying that I think google perhaps puts a bit more weight on it than most places I've worked for
Sep 24 15:45:03 <summatusmentis> swetland: so whnen I apply for the internship, I'll let you know so you can put in a good word, ok? :-P (I kid)
Sep 24 15:45:25 <unix_lappy> swetland: good thing google isnt the only place to work for.
Sep 24 15:45:31 <jasta> summatusmentis: i think first of all you should consider whether or not you're even an interesting or useful candidate.  are you? :)
Sep 24 15:45:38 <unix_lappy> work at...
Sep 24 15:45:55 <summatusmentis> jasta: someone picked me for GSoC, I must have some hidden talent that others see
Sep 24 15:46:27 <jasta> DD94300: i can help, what specifically are you trying to understand?
Sep 24 15:46:39 <summatusmentis> jasta: honestly, I don't consider myself that skilled, wasn't expecting in any way to get a SoC project, but hey!
Sep 24 15:47:11 <jasta> well, to be awarded as SoC project you simply must write well and have good ideas.  not necessarily be a capable engineer :)
Sep 24 15:47:43 <summatusmentis> haha, true
Sep 24 15:54:16 <DD94300> jasta, I am trying to understand difference between onCreate and onStart ....
Sep 24 15:55:02 <Cedric2> DD94300: it's clearly explained in the Life Cycle doc
Sep 24 15:55:12 <unix_lappy> lol, i believe he means write code well.
Sep 24 15:55:17 <Cedric2> Well, it's explained, I hope it's clear :)
Sep 24 15:55:56 <jasonchen> DD94300: http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/app/Service.html covers Service life cycle
Sep 24 15:58:54 <DD94300> i been through the document, according to my understanding, whenever new service is started OnStart and OnCreate method are called no matter what. Am i right?
Sep 24 15:59:15 <jasta> no.
Sep 24 15:59:26 <jasta> a service can be started more than once during its lifetime, but it can be created only once.
Sep 24 15:59:53 <jasta> onCreate will be called always prior to the first invocation of onStart.  subsequently, any number of onStarts may be called to match the number of calls to startService() that have been made elsewhere.
Sep 24 16:00:24 <jasta> most sophisticated services can ignore onStart() and simply tie their start/stop state to the interface they implement through AIDL
Sep 24 16:03:28 <DD94300> thanks, jasta. It will make sense slowly after some coding  practice
Sep 24 16:06:08 <jeffb> BENLEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Sep 24 16:06:15 <benley> U R DONG
Sep 24 16:20:23 <km-> heh, the freaking dns servers at my work resolve blogspot.com to 127.0.0.1
Sep 24 16:20:25 <km-> bastards!
Sep 24 16:22:18 <summatusmentis> hah, have you tried wordpress? I've wondered about switching to blogspot
Sep 24 16:22:33 <km-> I have a blog on blogspot
Sep 24 16:22:40 <km-> I've been reasonably happy with it.
Sep 24 16:22:47 <km-> although I haven't posted for like a year now
Sep 24 16:23:02 <km-> I intended to document some of the weirder projects I was working on and it sorta stopped when I ran out of fun projects to hack on.
Sep 24 16:26:00 <summatusmentis> mm
Sep 24 16:26:18 <summatusmentis> I guess it doesn't really matter that much which one you use
Sep 24 16:26:26 <summatusmentis> blogspot allows for editing of your theme though
Sep 24 16:44:07 <zhobbs> seems like maxLines="1" in an EditText means you shouldn't be able to hit enter and enter multiple lines...but guess that's really how many lines are shown
Sep 24 16:45:38 <anno^da_> Someone here from Google that can tell me if the Market Store will be open for global developers at the beginning or just for the US ones?
Sep 24 16:46:29 <pjv> what kind of question is that? what's the difference between US and non-US devs?
Sep 24 16:47:42 <zhobbs> I saw hackbod say on the mailing lists that no apps should be on the market that haven't been tested on the device :)
Sep 24 16:48:25 <zhobbs> ahhh, android:singleLine="true"
Sep 24 16:48:33 <anno^da_> pjv: Well if we talk about paid apps there are differences in payment from country to country.
Sep 24 16:49:39 <anno^da_> I know at the beginning we will have no paid apps but after they are available as well it would be interesting how the payment: consumer -> Google -> dev will be handled. Or not ? :-)
Sep 24 16:50:02 <pjv> hmm ok, seems like a practical question
Sep 24 16:50:23 <pjv> but there is paypal ofcourse
Sep 24 16:51:50 <anno^da_> yeah sure. Just thought about the billing and how that will be handled with the taxes etc. That's probably different in every country.
Sep 24 16:56:13 <SanMehat> morning
Sep 24 16:59:04 <km-> sup san
Sep 24 17:04:23 <tmccrary> Does anyone know if the HTC G1 has hardware 3d support?
Sep 24 17:08:38 <ulmen> "As part of its work with the OHA, Qualcomm has optimized the Android software by integrating it with Qualcomm's MSM7201A-a single chip, dual-core solution that combines high-speed processing, hardware-accelerated multimedia capabilities, 3D graphics and built-in, multi-mode 3G mobile broadband connectivity for an optimal wireless experience."
Sep 24 17:08:51 <wastrel> what's that mean in english?
Sep 24 17:09:15 <tmccrary> ulmen: thanks, where did you find that?
Sep 24 17:09:32 <ulmen> http://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2008/080923_T-Mobile_G1_to_Run_on_Qualcomms_Advanced_Dual-Core_Chipset.html
Sep 24 17:10:01 <tmccrary> ah, I searched for the processor specs but couldn't find anything about 3d
Sep 24 17:10:05 <tmccrary> thanks again, this is great news!
Sep 24 17:10:42 <ulmen> i can't really translate that to "has hardware 3d", but i think this is what it means ... but just guessing
Sep 24 17:11:01 <tmccrary> yeah it sounds like it and the HTC Touch Pro has a lot of 3d stuff going on
Sep 24 17:11:06 <tmccrary> it uses the same processor I believe
Sep 24 17:11:35 <tmccrary> I'll be happy if its more powerful than a nintendo ds
Sep 24 17:11:42 <tmccrary> which isn't asking for too much
Sep 24 17:18:28 <anno^da_> The first blog that was able to take good quality pictures of the G1: http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/09/photo-gallery-g.html
Sep 24 17:21:47 <anno^da_> ""We want to be open in a way that consumers can rely on," T-Mobile CTO Cole Brodman told Wired's Daniel Roth. Translation: We don't really want to be open." <- great one from wired.com :D
Sep 24 17:22:14 <tmccrary> cellphone corporate types are such douche bags
Sep 24 17:22:15 <Dougie187> yeah its been going around all morning
Sep 24 17:22:22 <tmccrary> even worse than most others
Sep 24 17:23:28 <jasta> hmm?
Sep 24 17:25:29 <anno^da_> It also lacks movie playback capabilities...  <- I read that sentence in every news now. Why the hell did they leave out the video app and left it in the market store?
Sep 24 17:25:52 <Dougie187> because maybe some people don't want to watch videos on their phone.
Sep 24 17:26:23 <wastrel> i don't generally care about videos on my phone
Sep 24 17:26:34 <anno^da_> Well some people :-)
Sep 24 17:27:04 <anno^da_> But I would say 90% of the normal consumers search for that feature. Especially on such a phone.
Sep 24 17:28:30 <gdsx> anno^da_: fwiw, I'm not really a fan of the wired blog photos -- they were taken with a quality camera/lens, but it looks like the person shooting didn't really know what they were doing
Sep 24 17:29:09 <ulmen> the only people i ever saw watching video on their phones were teenagers/children trying to impress each other
Sep 24 17:29:35 <jasta> the real issue of course is that the battery can't stand up to that punishment
Sep 24 17:29:46 <yakischloba> probably a big player in why it wasn't included
Sep 24 17:29:52 <anno^da_> gdsx: Well but show me one better picture in the blog/news phere.
Sep 24 17:29:52 <yakischloba> (jastas comment)
Sep 24 17:30:50 <ulmen> flickr has some nice pictures. nice in terms of 1726 x 1407
Sep 24 17:30:54 <gdsx> anno^da_: I'm not saying there are/aren't better photos out there, just that the photos on the wired blog are "ok"
Sep 24 17:31:01 <anno^da_> ok :-)
Sep 24 17:31:45 <wastrel> battery life is important
Sep 24 17:31:58 <benley> mossberg has a huge photo with a terrible fake screenshot glued into it
Sep 24 17:32:10 <gdsx> haha, yeah
Sep 24 17:32:30 <anno^da_> Yeah I saw that one :-)
Sep 24 17:32:31 <gdsx> I wonder how hard it'd be to port Luna :oP
Sep 24 17:32:32 <benley> http://mossblog.allthingsd.com/files/2008/09/android-open.jpg
Sep 24 17:32:45 <benley> luna?
Sep 24 17:33:02 <gdsx> benley: code name for the Vista UI, iirc
Sep 24 17:33:06 <benley> oh, yuck
Sep 24 17:33:10 * benley stays far far away
Sep 24 17:33:17 <gdsx> I love throwing bad ideas out into the wild :o)
Sep 24 17:33:41 <tmccrary> the HTC Touch Pro resembles the G1 and uses a horrible microsoft os :)
Sep 24 17:35:20 <summatusmentis> no, vista UI is aero
Sep 24 17:35:25 <summatusmentis> luna is XP UI, iirc
Sep 24 17:35:43 <Cedric2> Luna is the name of my dog!
Sep 24 17:35:51 * Cedric2 is calling his lawyers
Sep 24 17:36:16 <summatusmentis> how old is your dog?
Sep 24 17:36:57 <Cedric2> 1 year, but I'll pretend she's 12 years old
Sep 24 17:37:00 <Cedric2> I'm going to become rich
Sep 24 17:37:03 <summatusmentis> haha
Sep 24 17:37:21 <Dougie187> just feed her lots of bacon grease.
Sep 24 17:37:29 <Dougie187> then she will get over weight and move slowly.
Sep 24 17:37:32 <Dougie187> just like an old dog.
Sep 24 17:37:41 <jasta> yawn
Sep 24 17:37:43 <Cedric2> Mmmh, that might be problematic... http://picasaweb.google.com/cbeust/CrissyField#5248251031880943650
Sep 24 17:37:56 <Cedric2> I'll start forcefeeding her tonight
Sep 24 17:38:00 <Dougie187> there ya go.
Sep 24 17:38:42 <summatusmentis> she's cute though
Sep 24 17:38:58 <Dougie187> yellow lab?
Sep 24 17:39:23 <Cedric2> yup
Sep 24 17:39:37 <summatusmentis> I want a dog... my landlord won't let us get one though
Sep 24 17:40:47 <Dougie187> we have a tiny mutt dog
Sep 24 17:41:21 * summatusmentis wants a newfie
Sep 24 17:41:40 <Dougie187> seriously?
Sep 24 17:41:45 <Dougie187> those things are giant.
Sep 24 17:41:48 <benley> newfies are AWESOME
Sep 24 17:42:00 <summatusmentis> seriously, they're so cool!
Sep 24 17:42:18 <AttractiveApe> too big :P
Sep 24 17:42:19 <Dougie187> I want a Husky
Sep 24 17:42:21 <summatusmentis> my family used to have a newf, but he died because of hear issues :(
Sep 24 17:42:27 <AttractiveApe> best friend had two when I was growing up :)
Sep 24 17:42:30 <benley> hear issues?
Sep 24 17:42:39 <benley> newfs don't live particularly long, sadly
Sep 24 17:42:45 <Dougie187> hear issues are the worst.
Sep 24 17:42:52 <benley> wth is a "hear issue"
Sep 24 17:43:01 <Dougie187> you don't know what a hear issue is?
Sep 24 17:43:05 <Dougie187> its like the worst kind of issue ever.
Sep 24 17:43:19 <benley> you accidentally the whole hear?
Sep 24 17:43:28 <Dougie187> just about.
Sep 24 17:43:43 <summatusmentis> benley: heart*
Sep 24 17:43:43 <Dougie187> ...
Sep 24 17:43:52 <benley> oh HEART
Sep 24 17:44:00 <summatusmentis> I can't type
Sep 24 17:44:01 <Dougie187> heh.
Sep 24 17:44:01 * benley shakes his head
Sep 24 17:44:06 <Dougie187> i was just kidding anyways.
Sep 24 17:45:09 <summatusmentis> urgh, linear algebra. I'll be back later
Sep 24 17:45:11 <summatusmentis> bye all
Sep 24 17:45:16 <Dougie187> linear algebra is fun!
Sep 24 17:45:23 <Dougie187> Yay Linear Algebra!
Sep 24 17:45:29 <summatusmentis> no, it's really not
Sep 24 17:45:52 <Dougie187> i just had a numerical linear algebra class earlier
Sep 24 17:45:54 <Dougie187> i enjoy it.
Sep 24 17:45:57 <Cedric2> Linear algebra is actually fun when you stop doing it for class and grades
Sep 24 17:46:16 <Dougie187> it only has about a billion applications.
Sep 24 17:46:34 * benley drops a diffeq book on dougie187's head
Sep 24 17:46:44 <Dougie187> diffeq is fun too
Sep 24 17:46:50 <Dougie187> those have a billion applications as well
Sep 24 17:47:20 <benley> yeah, mostly involving pain and suffering
Sep 24 17:47:41 <Dougie187> hah pfft.
Sep 24 17:47:44 <Dougie187> its not that bad.
Sep 24 17:47:51 <Dougie187> im taking a numerical pde course as well
Sep 24 17:47:57 <Dougie187> that one is really fun
Sep 24 17:48:25 <Dougie187> and your diffeq  book is probably just ODEs
Sep 24 17:51:20 <Dougie187> what don't you like about ODEs?
Sep 24 17:51:29 <benley> what's an ODE?
Sep 24 17:51:31 <Dougie187> or, diffeq i should say assuming you mean it more generally.
Sep 24 17:51:44 <Dougie187> Ordinary Differential Equation.
Sep 24 17:51:51 <benley> ah
Sep 24 17:52:22 <benley> I never actually took any courses beyond multivariable calculus, because at that point I ran off to major in theatre.
Sep 24 17:52:36 <Dougie187> he
Sep 24 17:52:37 <Dougie187> heh
Sep 24 17:54:55 <jasta> yay, got my test environment all set up for all this new code i wrote
Sep 24 17:55:08 <Dougie187> nice
Sep 24 17:55:11 <Dougie187> hows it all coming along?
Sep 24 17:55:19 <jasta> slowly.  the MediaPlayer is killing me
Sep 24 17:55:48 <chomchom> Jasta tell me, for the love of all that is mighty. Does SDK1 help you out at all?
Sep 24 17:55:58 <jasta> lol, of course not
Sep 24 17:56:13 <jasta> if anything, it's just depressing to finally have.  tells me all of the things that just plain won't be right for 1.0.
Sep 24 17:56:30 <benley> at least it provides a final list of things to work around
Sep 24 17:56:46 <jasta> i suppose
Sep 24 17:57:04 * chomchom pats jasta on the back
Sep 24 17:57:05 <benley> I haven't actually looked yet, is gdata present in the 1.0 sdk?
Sep 24 17:57:07 <jasta> but for Five at least, my work arounds are temporary and a proper release can't proceed until the issues are fixed correctly
Sep 24 17:57:26 <jasta> so my dev has slowed down a lot just because there's no point for me to try to hit the Oct 22nd date
Sep 24 17:57:34 <jasta> i'll need to wait around for Android 1.1 no matter what
Sep 24 17:59:32 <chomchom> In the meantime jasta why don't you work out a bad ass marketing plan for five?
Sep 24 17:59:51 <jasta> because i'm not interested in that
Sep 24 17:59:59 <jasta> if i was, why on earth would i be an open source developer? :)
Sep 24 18:00:10 <chomchom> Come up wit ha website that has much with some cosmetic lovliness
Sep 24 18:00:28 <jasta> well, for one i dont have the skill to do that
Sep 24 18:00:39 <chomchom> Open source doesn't mean looks rubbish and no one uses it
Sep 24 18:00:46 <Dougie187> maybe muthu can help you
Sep 24 18:00:52 <chomchom> well find someone who complements you skills
Sep 24 18:00:53 <Dougie187> :)
Sep 24 18:01:17 <jasta> chomchom: why bother?  if open source works like it's supposed to, they should find me :)
Sep 24 18:01:41 <chomchom> Open source is in its essence just a marketing and distribution model
Sep 24 18:01:57 <chomchom> It won't just fly off and become really popular without you putting any effort in
Sep 24 18:02:12 <chomchom> People will have to know how good it is and so you'll have to get it to them
Sep 24 18:02:13 <jasta> let's please not have a philosophical discussion on what open source is and is not.  i have plenty of experience in this area.
Sep 24 18:02:25 <SanMehat> jasta: so do a lot of people, that doesn't make you an authority
Sep 24 18:02:35 <SanMehat> sigh why do i bother
Sep 24 18:02:45 <jasta> besides, android's market is the distribution channel that everyone should target anyway
Sep 24 18:02:48 <chomchom> I also just gave a talk on it at the Google dev day actually!
Sep 24 18:02:58 <jasta> it would be premature for me to focus my energy there though, since the damn thing can't even work on 1.0
Sep 24 18:03:47 <chomchom> maybe, just if you are stuck for things to work on. I was thinking about proactive ways to spend the time that would help five in the long run
Sep 24 18:04:07 <jasta> i'm not stuck, i'm spending my time working on a hugely complicated work around
Sep 24 18:04:12 <jasta> it will take a long time to finish :)
Sep 24 18:04:39 <jasta> it'll ultimately need to be replaced before a proper release can be made, but in the mean time it will let me continue development.
Sep 24 18:05:02 <chomchom> I want to see it work man, we all do, as you are definitely one of the #android
Sep 24 18:06:56 <jasta> well, it's open source, so at any point you're free to see it work :)
Sep 24 18:07:35 <jasta> but that doesn't mean i'm going to publish and market a proper release with a hackish work-around that i know to be unintuitively limiting and unstable
Sep 24 18:08:00 <jasta> for example, i'm not going to support seeking with this hack.  so users can't seek around in songs.  i'm also not going to bother to show buffering progress, which most users would find unforigvable.
Sep 24 18:08:21 <jasta> the former is because the work around is too much effort, the latter is because it's impossible given the state of MediaPlayer
Sep 24 18:10:40 <jasta> and to give you an idea of scope, so far my hack is 2000 lines long.  i expect it'll grow to 3 or 4k loc before it works.
Sep 24 18:11:04 <chomchom> That is indeed a hack
Sep 24 18:11:24 <chomchom> Well I do intend to check out five later. Haven't checked out the code in a while.
Sep 24 18:11:37 <chomchom> I don't suppose you have done any server to client synching yet?
Sep 24 18:11:54 <chomchom> It seems all the interfaces have ran away in the new SDK release
Sep 24 18:12:19 <jasta> i didn't use any of the APIs in Android.
Sep 24 18:12:27 <chomchom> hmmmm
Sep 24 18:12:38 <jasta> Five synchronizes on its own, with a background service that connects to the Five server on your PC.  All that is very stable at this point.
Sep 24 18:12:52 <jasta> the only TODO left in that area is that it currently doesn't synchronize playlists.  A simple task, I just never got to it.
Sep 24 18:13:01 <jasta> Probably take me just a day to add
Sep 24 18:13:58 <chomchom> Interesting.... Does it synchronize between the SQLite DB and another DB upon dirty/new entries on the client side or does it just push changes to the clietnt from the users machine?
Sep 24 18:14:32 <jasta> not sure what you mean?  it uses SyncML and supports all the usual features of the protocol to do synchronization of meta data from server to client.
Sep 24 18:14:38 <chomchom> ah
Sep 24 18:14:53 <chomchom> you went the syncML root
Sep 24 18:15:00 <chomchom> that seems like a good option
Sep 24 18:15:04 <jasta> the server tracks changes and all that, so each successive client sync only gets what is different
Sep 24 18:15:12 <chomchom> as its more or less the symbian way
Sep 24 18:15:15 <jasta> yeah, SyncML was attractive because of libsyncml, which is the basis for the server.
Sep 24 18:15:29 <chomchom> Yeah I think thats a good option
Sep 24 18:15:33 <jasta> there is also some java client library out there, but it's very bad, so i wrote my own.
Sep 24 18:15:47 <chomchom> also open source?
Sep 24 18:15:51 <jasta> of course.
Sep 24 18:16:10 <jasta> it's crude at this point, clearly building up just enough support that Five needs so it's not a true SyncML implementation
Sep 24 18:16:11 <chomchom> win. Well you'll be having my dirty eyes all over that.
Sep 24 18:16:19 <jasta> but at some point i'd like to finish it and package it as a nice generalized SyncML client
Sep 24 18:16:53 <jasta> Five's a big project, for sure.  There's something like 25k loc total code in the repository.
Sep 24 18:18:06 <jasta> if you're curious, my road map for the next couple of months is to get this MediaPlayer hack done, finish testing the rewritten playlist service, then redo a good portion of the music player UI
Sep 24 18:18:14 <jasta> the latter is really exciting, i have lots of new ideas about how this should be done :)
Sep 24 18:18:34 <jasta> kind of combining five's old interface with some of the cool things i like about Google's music player.
Sep 24 18:18:37 <Dougie187> did you do this jasta? http://www.androiddownload.org/download-android-five-alpha-streaming-application/
Sep 24 18:19:17 <jasta> i did not
Sep 24 18:19:35 <Dougie187> but thats your app is it not?
Sep 24 18:20:03 <jasta> yeah
Sep 24 18:20:31 <Dougie187> i didn't know you had released it as an alpha.
Sep 24 18:20:39 <jasta> i haven't released anything to date
Sep 24 18:20:45 <Dougie187> heh ok
Sep 24 18:20:50 <benley> so wtf are they offering for download there?
Sep 24 18:20:54 <jasta> though the repository is public for anyone to do with it as they please :)
Sep 24 18:21:04 <jasta> no idea, probably a download snapshot at some point they did
Sep 24 18:21:09 <jasta> they packaged, i mean
Sep 24 18:22:00 <Dougie187> lol they even took the picture off your site.
Sep 24 18:23:33 <jasta> im sure there will be lots of that as phones come out
Sep 24 18:23:48 <chomchom> Well thats good since its free advertising!
Sep 24 18:23:48 <Dougie187> is all the code in the repo up-to-date?
Sep 24 18:23:52 <jasta> folks just arbitrating someone elses open source project.  it happens a lot, actually
Sep 24 18:23:57 <jasta> Dougie187: yes, always.
Sep 24 18:24:03 <Dougie187> with your hack too?
Sep 24 18:24:25 <jasta> yes, but the hack has not been tested.  right now im in the process of building test cases for all the code i wrote in the last month
Sep 24 18:25:05 <jasta> the hack is in five-music/.../service/LocalHttpServerHack.java
Sep 24 18:25:05 <Dougie187> cool
Sep 24 18:25:28 <jasta> but its missing lots of features ;)
Sep 24 18:25:39 <jasta> the PlaylistService needs some new test cases built to make sure it all works in that context too
Sep 24 18:25:49 <jasta> and preemptive downloads were ripped out during this rewrite, so i have to introduce that back in again
Sep 24 18:25:58 <jasta> also, submission to Last.fm was temporarily removed for that same reason
Sep 24 18:26:18 <jasta> since 0.9r1 was released, i've been steamrolling over a lot of code, rewriting it to be more efficient and more correct
Sep 24 18:27:05 <plusminus_> "more correct" :-D
Sep 24 18:27:05 <Dougie187> cool
Sep 24 18:27:53 <Dougie187> you write nice code, just so you know.
Sep 24 18:28:01 <Dougie187> but you don't write very many comments.
Sep 24 18:28:01 <Dougie187> lol
Sep 24 18:28:14 <jasta> comments are not a sign of good code.  excessive comments usually surrounds bad code :)
Sep 24 18:28:21 <jasta> surround*
Sep 24 18:28:40 <Dougie187> true
Sep 24 18:28:43 <jasta> but yeah, i don't comment much.  generlaly only when i'm writing some goofy hack or something
Sep 24 18:28:46 <Dougie187> people here push comments.
Sep 24 18:28:49 <Miek> // increment by one
Sep 24 18:28:50 <Dougie187> i hate comments though
Sep 24 18:28:51 <jasta> thanks for the compliment tho :)
Sep 24 18:28:52 <tmccrary> its better to have too many comments than not enough
Sep 24 18:28:57 <Dougie187> i think they make it harder to read.
Sep 24 18:29:06 <chomchom> Good code should read well without comments
Sep 24 18:29:14 <tmccrary> I used to think that but its still better to comment
Sep 24 18:29:15 <Dougie187> I'd rather have a readme file with all the comments dumped into it, and then the code nice and clean
Sep 24 18:29:24 <tmccrary> "good code" is a perfect world situation
Sep 24 18:29:38 <tmccrary> which you should never plan to have :)
Sep 24 18:29:49 <chomchom> heh
Sep 24 18:30:03 <Dougie187> tmccrary: i think you mean perfect code.
Sep 24 18:30:13 <Dougie187> good code is all subjective.
Sep 24 18:30:29 <chomchom> Well at least good code should have documentation in the form of adequate unit testing
Sep 24 18:31:18 <Dougie187> I think jasta's code is an example of good code. its clean, uses a lot of white space, but not too much. and doesn't have redundant unneeded comments.
Sep 24 18:31:47 <Dougie187> it might benefit from a description at the top of the file, but the file names are just as descriptive as that would be.
Sep 24 18:32:15 <jasta> fyi, i tend to roll over my code once i am happy with it and javadoc at least the classes and modules.
Sep 24 18:32:21 <jasta> if not the important methods and such
Sep 24 18:33:03 <jasta> for example, this hack i'm concentrating on just making it work, then i'll epxlain why it is necessary and how it works
Sep 24 18:33:15 <saraneya> who has the time to write comments?
Sep 24 18:33:31 <Dougie187> people who don't know how to code.
Sep 24 18:33:38 <jasta> Dougie187: for example, see IPlaylistService.aidl.
Sep 24 18:34:17 <Dougie187> yeah
Sep 24 18:35:01 <Dougie187> those help some too
Sep 24 18:35:08 <Dougie187> but they are hard to read in vim
Sep 24 18:35:09 <Dougie187> lol
Sep 24 18:35:44 <jasta> what are?
Sep 24 18:35:53 <jasta> (i use vim almost exclusively, btw)
Sep 24 18:36:21 <Dougie187> the aidl files.
Sep 24 18:36:24 <Dougie187> me too
Sep 24 18:36:28 <Dougie187> i can't use anything else.
Sep 24 18:36:49 <Dougie187> but you run javadoc over these right?
Sep 24 18:36:58 <jasta> i haven't yet :)
Sep 24 18:37:04 <Dougie187> yeah, but you will at some point
Sep 24 18:37:07 <Dougie187> after you finish everything.
Sep 24 18:37:20 <jasta> yeah, i guess.  javadoc is more for me and how it shows up in vim though :)
Sep 24 18:37:39 <jasta> i like structured documentation, i am not as interested in the output that the javadoc tools make
Sep 24 18:37:40 <Dougie187> javadoc tends to make things easier to read, at least as far as comments go.
Sep 24 18:37:59 <jasta> but anyway, use :set ft=java on those aidl files
Sep 24 18:38:10 <jasta> editing mine should have that happen automagically since i have that in my header
Sep 24 18:38:15 <jasta> which makes it display quite nicely
Sep 24 18:38:17 <Dougie187> yeah that helps too
Sep 24 18:38:47 <Dougie187> the syntax coloring is nice.
Sep 24 18:38:53 <Dougie187> everything without it is hard to read imo
Sep 24 18:38:54 <Dougie187> lo
Sep 24 18:38:57 <Dougie187> lol*
Sep 24 18:40:04 <saraneya> how many apps will be available on oct 22?
Sep 24 18:40:15 <Cedric2> Millions!
Sep 24 18:40:18 <Dougie187> hah
Sep 24 18:40:27 <Dougie187> probably a couple hundred at the most.
Sep 24 18:43:05 <amjad> question: who  makes the  hardware for T-mobile G1??
Sep 24 18:43:05 <saraneya> will be interesting to watch the apps that debut on market
Sep 24 18:43:18 <saraneya> HTC
Sep 24 18:43:30 <f00f-> amjad: HTC, it is internally known as the HTC Dream, the device
Sep 24 18:43:33 <jasta> Dougie187: well thanks for all the flattery.  i'm off to lunch now ;)
Sep 24 18:43:44 <Dougie187> have fun
Sep 24 18:45:09 <unix_lappy> lol, jasta has been in here all day and is going to lunch now :-)
Sep 24 18:45:22 <Dougie187> its noon for him.
Sep 24 18:46:03 <unix_lappy> Dougie187: yea, west coast, i dig.
Sep 24 18:46:34 <f00f-> too early for lunch
Sep 24 18:46:46 <Dougie187> noon?
Sep 24 18:46:56 <Dougie187> i have to eat either at 11:30 or 10:30 every day.
Sep 24 18:47:06 <Dougie187> otherwise i don't get a chance until like 2 or 3. and thats too late
Sep 24 18:47:40 <f00f-> oh my, what a regime :X
Sep 24 18:49:46 <unix_lappy> Dougie187: you have class around noon?
Sep 24 18:49:58 <unix_lappy> big bummerino.
Sep 24 18:50:15 <f00f-> oh, you're in school
Sep 24 18:51:56 <Dougie187> yeah every day.
Sep 24 18:54:36 <saraneya> can the app be in both tmo market and android market?
Sep 24 18:54:51 <benley> there's a difference?
Sep 24 18:57:37 <Dougie187> and if so, why would you not be able to do that?
Sep 24 19:00:52 <Dougie187> tea time!
Sep 24 19:01:13 <benley> good idea
Sep 24 19:01:18 <benley> only s/tea/espresso/
Sep 24 19:11:45 <pardom> android question!!!
Sep 24 19:11:56 <pardom> what's the difference between binding a service and just starting it?
Sep 24 19:16:01 <tric> ie an activity can bind to a service, so it can use/call it. after just starting a service there wont be such a connection
Sep 24 19:16:28 <BBHoss> is the any way to get the device's GPS location using javascript in the browser?
Sep 24 19:19:03 <yakischloba> BBHoss: i hope not, thats max evil
Sep 24 19:19:25 <BBHoss> yakischloba: the blackberry browser allows it if you enable the functionality
Sep 24 19:19:35 <yakischloba> wow really
Sep 24 19:19:38 <yakischloba> curious
Sep 24 19:19:57 <BBHoss> yeah its in general properties or something like it
Sep 24 19:20:14 <BBHoss> enable location browser services or something like it
Sep 24 19:29:19 <erus`> is the any way to get the device's GPS location using javascript in the browser? yes like in the webview demo
Sep 24 19:30:21 <erus`> you can pass object to the javascript
Sep 24 19:30:25 <erus`> super sexy cool
Sep 24 19:38:22 <BBHoss> erus`: what?
Sep 24 19:39:01 <erus`> you can access pretty much anything in javascript if you make it accessable
Sep 24 19:39:18 <BBHoss> erus`: can you give me a little more detail on how i would access GPS?
Sep 24 19:40:04 <erus`> its in the sdk
Sep 24 19:41:00 <BBHoss> but i have to install something or modify the device first right?
Sep 24 19:41:14 <BBHoss> also do you have a link for more info?
Sep 24 19:42:16 <erus`> yes u do
Sep 24 19:42:24 <erus`> no i cant find link right now im busy
Sep 24 19:43:44 <BBHoss> erus`: ok, thanks for your input :)
Sep 24 19:50:04 <jasta> hehe yikes, i'll have to pay AT&T $175 to cancel my contract and move to T-Mobile
Sep 24 19:51:30 <trashguy> lol
Sep 24 19:51:36 <trashguy> iPhone fail
Sep 24 19:52:04 <unix_lappy> jasta: or you could wait until christmas to get an unlocked g1
Sep 24 19:52:43 <AttractiveApe> jasta: better option -- give your contract away on craigslist or something, some people can't pass the credit checks to get the contract.
Sep 24 19:52:52 <AttractiveApe> Maybe throw in a free phone if you don't have an awesome plan.
Sep 24 19:52:58 <trashguy> lol
Sep 24 19:53:07 <trashguy> people sell contracts on craig slist
Sep 24 19:53:09 <trashguy> lulkz
Sep 24 19:53:36 <jasta> unix_lappy: except that it doesn't support AT&T's 3G frequencies, i confirmed that today
Sep 24 19:53:45 <jasta> one of these phones without 3G is useless
Sep 24 19:54:05 <trashguy> finally a 3g phone on tmobile
Sep 24 19:54:07 <jasta> AttractiveApe: how the hell does that work?  the account has my god damn soc# on it
Sep 24 19:54:14 <trashguy> my blackberry is worthless its so slow
Sep 24 19:54:35 <AttractiveApe> jasta: then you go in and transfer it, so they don't see it.
Sep 24 19:54:52 <BBHoss> jasta: ATT uses UMTS whereas Tmo uses AWS, the gsm standard base is still supported though
Sep 24 19:54:58 <AttractiveApe> I dunno, it works on Canadian carriers at least.
Sep 24 19:55:00 <AttractiveApe> ymmv.
Sep 24 19:55:18 <benley> why would it be useless without 3g?
Sep 24 19:55:56 <trashguy> slow
Sep 24 19:55:59 <benley> wifi.
Sep 24 19:56:04 <trashguy> i forgot
Sep 24 19:56:08 <trashguy> the entire usa is coverd inw ifi
Sep 24 19:56:08 <jasta> benley: well, considering my project is Five....... :)
Sep 24 19:56:13 <unix_lappy> jasta: as many pluses as we've drummed up.
Sep 24 19:56:21 <unix_lappy> the minuses are quickly adding up :-(
Sep 24 19:56:30 <jasta> unix_lappy: what?
Sep 24 19:56:39 <unix_lappy> for the entire g1 situation.
Sep 24 19:56:44 <jasta> AttractiveApe: how do you transfer it?  i don't know what you're talking about.
Sep 24 19:57:08 <jasta> unix_lappy: im just buying mine for dev, actually
Sep 24 19:57:26 <jasta> if i really wanted a great phone i'd just buy an iphone hehe
Sep 24 19:57:31 <unix_lappy> jasta: i'm buying my first smartphone.
Sep 24 19:57:37 <benley> I've used an iphone and I've used a g1, and I'll keep the g1 thx
Sep 24 19:57:54 <jasta> how have you used a g1?
Sep 24 19:58:01 <trashguy> you mean a blackberry
Sep 24 19:58:04 <AttractiveApe> jasta: I dunno, talk to AT&T.
Sep 24 19:58:22 <benley> jasta: no comment I guess
Sep 24 19:58:43 <jasta> benley: oh, were you one of the winners?
Sep 24 19:58:49 <benley> no.
Sep 24 19:58:58 <unix_lappy> there are plenty of g1's floating around for non google employees.
Sep 24 19:59:19 <jasta> i didnt think there would be any for folks to walk away with and actually use
Sep 24 20:00:13 <trashguy> has it beeen jail broken?
Sep 24 20:01:37 <benley> is there anything to jailbreak?
Sep 24 20:01:56 <trashguy> i dont know
Sep 24 20:02:05 <trashguy> will i be able to run a terminal
Sep 24 20:02:27 <jasta> highly unlikely
Sep 24 20:02:32 <Cedric2> Yes for terminal, but you won't be able to su on a locked device
Sep 24 20:02:35 <Cedric2> so it won't take you far
Sep 24 20:02:53 <jasta> No for terminal, Yes for opening for processes.
Sep 24 20:03:05 <jasta> -for :)
Sep 24 20:03:20 <jasta> there's a difference, even if most googlers don't know what it is
Sep 24 20:03:20 <jasta> :)
Sep 24 20:03:37 <Cedric2> Admittedly, I have only been using unlocked devices so far
Sep 24 20:03:50 <trashguy> so inlocked you can su in etc?
Sep 24 20:03:54 <trashguy> unlocked
Sep 24 20:03:55 <Cedric2> Yes
Sep 24 20:04:00 <trashguy> okay cool
Sep 24 20:04:08 <Cedric2> and adbd runs as root, so you can do whatever you want including reflashing it
Sep 24 20:04:16 <Cedric2> which is what we do on a daily basis
Sep 24 20:04:54 <jasta> Cedric2: are we expecting adb to be uncrippled on consumer devices?  that would be excellent news.
Sep 24 20:05:23 <Cedric2> Not sure what you mean by uncrippled, right now it's a binary thing: doesn't work on locked devices, works on unlocked devices
Sep 24 20:05:52 <jasta> oh, interesting.  so locked in this sense is much more than sim lock?
Sep 24 20:06:07 <Cedric2> Unfortunately yes (you can't reflash a locked device)
Sep 24 20:06:31 <Cedric2> I hear you can unlocked your device after 90 days, though
Sep 24 20:06:40 <jasta> so how does that work with the CTO's recent claim that customers can have it unlocked after 90 days?
Sep 24 20:06:45 <jasta> ahh yes, that ;)
Sep 24 20:06:58 <jasta> that makes no sense why you'd make a dev simply wait idly for 90 days to have that level of freedom
Sep 24 20:07:24 <Cedric2> Carriers have different perspectives than developers on this kind of thing, I'm not going to try to justify this
Sep 24 20:07:27 <jasta> it's not a huge deal assuming there is no treachery going on, but still, that's kind of a strange policy
Sep 24 20:07:58 <jasta> so, with a locked phone, can custom applications be installed freely?
Sep 24 20:08:05 <jasta> that is, deploying an apk you built?
Sep 24 20:08:18 <Cedric2> Yes, that part should work since you're not touching the system partition (which is read-only)
Sep 24 20:08:27 <jasta> but aren't you using adb to do that?
Sep 24 20:08:50 <Cedric2> Yes, but adb install pushes stuff in /data, not on the system partition
Sep 24 20:08:55 <Cedric2> you just need to enable USB for this
Sep 24 20:10:54 <jasta> i see, so adb shell should still work, it just won't give you a root shell?
Sep 24 20:10:59 <Cedric2> yup
Sep 24 20:11:20 <jasta> excellent, and adb push as well?  so all we need to do is start looking for local root exploits hehe jk
Sep 24 20:11:43 <Cedric2> I'm sure exploits will be found
Sep 24 20:11:49 <Cedric2> but probably a touch challenge on a locked device
Sep 24 20:12:08 <Cedric2> Anyway, I expect them to be broken 24 hours after the official release, it's par for the course
Sep 24 20:12:09 <jasta> well if t-mobile is true to their word and allows unlocking freely, then i guess there's no sense in that
Sep 24 20:12:28 <Cedric2> You know that won't stop hackers from trying and succeeding :)
Sep 24 20:12:36 <jasta> trust me, i know
Sep 24 20:12:36 * benley looks forward to 3rd-party hackers unlocking the phones
Sep 24 20:12:47 <jasta> my contention isn't whether it can be done, it's what t-mobile will do about it
Sep 24 20:21:39 <wastrel> hi
Sep 24 20:21:54 <wastrel> it's a pretty good phone
Sep 24 20:42:26 <kristian-m> There should be a way for developers to get a G1 in europe... - is Google/HTC/T-Mobile planing anything like that?
Sep 24 20:43:29 <f00f-> yeah
Sep 24 20:43:33 <f00f-> give it some time
Sep 24 20:43:34 <f00f-> november
Sep 24 20:48:31 <amjad> is there any docs with spec file email clients/browser for G1??
Sep 24 20:50:55 <chuck> kristian-m: yeah i'm hoping that google comes out with a device like the openmoko one (but a lot better looking of course >_<)
Sep 24 21:20:40 <ttuttle> SanMehat: ping
Sep 24 21:20:44 <slux> halo
Sep 24 21:24:40 <SanMehat> hey
Sep 24 21:25:40 <ttuttle> SanMehat: How's it going?
Sep 24 21:25:59 <f00f-> pong
Sep 24 21:27:40 <SanMehat> ttuttle: shitty, making posters for a lost cat
Sep 24 21:27:44 <ttuttle> SanMehat: Awwww.
Sep 24 21:27:48 <ttuttle> SanMehat: That sucks.
Sep 24 21:28:59 <benley> the poor kitty!
Sep 24 21:29:35 <kingkung> hello all
Sep 24 21:29:36 <ttuttle> benley: hey!
Sep 24 21:29:59 <kingkung> anyone know what happened to the SMS Inbox/Outbox in Android 1.0?
Sep 24 21:30:15 <benley> ttuttle: I LIKE TUTTLES
Sep 24 21:30:51 <ttuttle> benley: ...thanks?
Sep 24 21:30:57 <benley> ttuttle: sorry, repeating old meme
Sep 24 21:30:57 <kingkung> look it up on youtube
Sep 24 21:31:00 <ttuttle> benley: ah
Sep 24 21:31:13 <ttuttle> benley: my address is in LDAP if you want to send me a G1 ;-)
Sep 24 21:31:19 <benley> Heh :)
Sep 24 21:31:43 <benley> pity they didn't let you keep one when you went back to school
Sep 24 21:31:58 <kingkung> anyone an expert at android 1.0 yet?
Sep 24 21:32:06 <kingkung> have a question
Sep 24 21:32:19 <ttuttle> benley: It would have been a *horrible* idea to let me keep it.
Sep 24 21:32:53 <ttuttle> benley: Someone would've ended up getting pictures or something.
Sep 24 21:33:18 <benley> heh
Sep 24 21:34:00 <kingkung> looks like that's a resounding "no".
Sep 24 21:34:19 <ttuttle> kingkung: Um, it hasn't been out long.
Sep 24 21:34:35 <ttuttle> kingkung: But many people know Android 0.9, which is strikingly similar.  If you have a question, just ask.
Sep 24 21:34:44 <kingkung> sure
Sep 24 21:34:45 <kingkung> i did
Sep 24 21:35:07 <kingkung> what happened to the SMS Inbox/Outbox in Android 1.0? (available in 0.9)
Sep 24 21:35:10 <ttuttle> Oh, that.
Sep 24 21:35:16 <ttuttle> I dunno. :-\
Sep 24 21:35:21 <kingkung> android.provider.telephony.Sms
Sep 24 21:35:24 <ttuttle> brb
Sep 24 21:35:26 <kingkung> not there anymore!
Sep 24 21:38:31 <Miek> i don't really know anything about it, but is this helpful: http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/telephony/gsm/package-summary.html ?
Sep 24 21:41:44 <kingkung> not exactly what i was looking for, but thank you
Sep 24 21:45:52 * jasta ponders what should be done about the MediaStore provider in Five
Sep 24 21:50:00 <jasta> i guess i should put cached five tracks in this provider...
Sep 24 21:52:16 <cyrus__> Anyone here run android on the n810? I followed the instructions on internettabletalk but when I run android it never does anything
Sep 24 21:59:10 <kingkung> you're probably just running the "invisible" skin
Sep 24 22:00:30 <kingkung> it's always important to set invisibility to "off" prior to isntalling android on any mobile devices
Sep 24 22:02:26 <cyrus__> not sure what you mean to invisibility to of
Sep 24 22:02:33 <jasta> he's joking
Sep 24 22:04:51 <kingkung> sorry, i'm bored attempting to port to 1.0
Sep 24 22:05:01 <Cedric2> Because you have nothing to do?
Sep 24 22:05:18 <Cedric2> I would consider this a success :)
Sep 24 22:05:22 <kingkung> because i dunno what happened to the Sms package
Sep 24 22:05:32 <kingkung> and can't find anything in docs
Sep 24 22:05:55 <f00f-> probably a service now
Sep 24 22:06:14 <jeffb> TUTTLES
Sep 24 22:06:36 <f00f-> !HOTDOG!
Sep 24 22:53:01 <donomo> How do i take an R.id.radio_button_thing and retrieve its object soi can set to to On?
Sep 24 22:54:24 <f00f-> ((RadioButton) findViewById(R.id.bleh)).setOn(whatever);
Sep 24 22:55:28 <donomo> sweet. thx
Sep 24 23:17:03 <jasta> yawn
Sep 24 23:18:03 <umdk1d3> yay
Sep 24 23:18:09 * umdk1d3 in sanjose
Sep 24 23:18:25 <jasta> that place sucks
Sep 24 23:18:40 <umdk1d3> ohsnap =O
Sep 24 23:18:40 <jasta> go to SF :)
Sep 24 23:23:38 <xavd> jasta: do you still have the "bad type" error on your aidl files?
Sep 24 23:24:08 <jasta> well, yes, but i worked around just like i did in pre 1.0
Sep 24 23:24:25 <jasta> but still, the bug remains valid
Sep 24 23:24:45 <xavd> strangely I opened an old project that had aidl files and add it too. I edited the file and saved it and the error disappeared... I'm not sure what is going on
Sep 24 23:25:03 <xavd> (add it too = had it too)
Sep 24 23:25:33 <jasta> the problem, i believe, relates to the new project.aidl feature
Sep 24 23:25:37 <jasta> which apparently does not work
Sep 24 23:25:47 <xavd> well I'm using it right now and it works
Sep 24 23:26:11 <jasta> so you have a custom parcelable?
Sep 24 23:26:41 <xavd> Yes, I have a class implementing Parcelable, and an interface defined in an aidl file with a method that returns it
Sep 24 23:26:59 <jasta> Hmm, well.
Sep 24 23:27:08 <jasta> I don't know, I struggled for hours to make it work
Sep 24 23:30:30 * taaz amused by bad press causing t-mobile to back off and review the 1GB cap
Sep 24 23:32:42 <xavd> jasta: it looks like the "bad type" error comes when aidl fails to parse project.aidl. It should not happen when it's generated automatically. I'm looking into it
Sep 25 00:14:20 <RyeBrye> is dalvik the only language to write in for android phones? for instance - will I be able to ssh into the phone and get a shell?
Sep 25 00:14:32 <RyeBrye> err... java to run on dalvik
Sep 25 00:19:59 <jasta> the answer is complex.  google will only support you writing to Dalvik.
Sep 25 00:20:23 <jasta> anything else is up to the community, so just wait and see.
Sep 25 00:22:23 <taaz> huh.  was just watching vid of android product manager guy give demo and he said g1 camera was mechanical auto focus.  vs the htc specs that say fixed focus.
Sep 25 00:22:35 <jasta> taaz: yeah, that confused me too
Sep 25 00:35:40 <erus`> iva never had a fone that took good pictures
Sep 25 00:35:55 <erus`> all mine seem to have a 2 second shutter speed
Sep 25 00:37:37 <wastrel> hi
Sep 25 00:38:22 <unix_infidel> anyone going to TechCrunch / Austin Ventures event tomorrow?
Sep 25 01:29:09 <jasta> my ireland pictures are almost done uploading
Sep 25 01:29:14 <jasta> just wanted to share this one photo i'm really proud of:
Sep 25 01:29:45 <jasta> http://picasaweb.google.com/jasta00/Ireland2008#5249763835446290226
Sep 25 01:30:21 <unix_infidel> camera?
Sep 25 01:30:56 <wastrel> iphone
Sep 25 01:31:14 <jasta> yeah that was with a camera, why?
Sep 25 01:31:25 <unix_infidel> jasta: lol, which camera / lens?
Sep 25 01:31:37 <jasta> just a crappy casio
Sep 25 01:34:10 <yakischloba> that bluff is gorgeous
Sep 25 01:34:48 <jasta> bluff?
Sep 25 01:34:58 <yakischloba> is that not the right word
Sep 25 01:35:00 <yakischloba> cliff?
Sep 25 01:35:01 <yakischloba> lol
Sep 25 01:35:14 <jasta> which cliff?
Sep 25 01:35:27 <unix_infidel> cliff who?
Sep 25 01:35:36 <yakischloba> am I crazy?
Sep 25 01:35:43 <jasta> in the picture above?
Sep 25 01:35:54 <yakischloba> the ones overlooking a large body of water
Sep 25 01:35:58 <yakischloba> oh
Sep 25 01:36:00 <yakischloba> no i dont think so
Sep 25 01:36:07 <yakischloba> different photos
Sep 25 01:36:11 <yakischloba> there are a bunch of them
Sep 25 01:36:17 <jasta> oh, that's the cliffs of moher
Sep 25 01:36:54 <jasta> check this out:
Sep 25 01:36:57 <jasta> http://picasaweb.google.com/jasta00/Ireland2008#5249761115506559922
Sep 25 01:37:15 <yakischloba> hah
Sep 25 01:37:28 <yakischloba> a little less stunning than the cliffs ;)
Sep 25 01:37:49 <jasta> http://picasaweb.google.com/jasta00/Ireland2008#5249764760261034770
Sep 25 01:37:54 <jasta> that was scary ;)
Sep 25 01:37:59 <yakischloba> yeah I bet
Sep 25 01:38:01 <unix_infidel> haha, just read an article today about fast food invading europe.
Sep 25 01:38:01 <yakischloba> I don't think I would do that
Sep 25 01:38:18 <unix_infidel> *crumble crumble*
Sep 25 01:38:27 <unix_infidel> hmm, what's that sounnd....?
Sep 25 01:38:57 <jasta> yakischloba: http://picasaweb.google.com/jasta00/Ireland2008#5249764790879397170 -- thats what it looked like
Sep 25 01:39:05 <yakischloba> yeah i saw heh
Sep 25 01:39:14 <yakischloba> scurrry
Sep 25 01:39:30 <jasta> http://picasaweb.google.com/jasta00/Ireland2008#5249766688802725842
Sep 25 01:39:31 <jasta> hehe
Sep 25 01:39:52 <yakischloba> hah
Sep 25 01:40:19 <jasta> http://picasaweb.google.com/jasta00/Ireland2008#5249766418845272098
Sep 25 01:40:29 <yakischloba> thats a good one
Sep 25 01:40:42 <yakischloba> makin me thirsty
Sep 25 01:40:46 <jasta> thats after the town won some sporting event :)
Sep 25 01:40:54 <jasta> literally the day after
Sep 25 01:41:26 <jasta> http://picasaweb.google.com/jasta00/Ireland2008#5249762189827224882
Sep 25 01:41:40 <yakischloba> hahaha
Sep 25 01:41:41 <jasta> (click next a couple times)
Sep 25 01:41:52 <yakischloba> nice
Sep 25 01:42:22 <yakischloba> speaking of farm animals on the road..let me find this one lol
Sep 25 01:42:44 <yakischloba> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQSkmsFCjSA
Sep 25 01:43:34 <jasta> hehe
Sep 25 01:44:48 <jasta> ok, all the pictures are now uploaded
Sep 25 01:44:49 <jasta> enjoy :)
Sep 25 01:45:05 <wastrel> picasa
Sep 25 02:35:35 <wastrel> i installed the sdk
Sep 25 02:35:49 <unix_infidel> congrats, get crackin!
Sep 25 02:36:08 <taaz> has anyone seen a pic of the g1 with keyboard backlight on?  i assume it has one.
Sep 25 02:36:58 <unix_infidel> taaz: all over the place.
Sep 25 02:37:02 <unix_infidel> check the major gadget blogs.
Sep 25 02:39:24 <benley> it has one
Sep 25 02:48:02 * taaz is blind and sees no such pics
Sep 25 02:52:08 <benley> it's surprisingly hard to get a legible photo of the keyboard backlight
Sep 25 02:52:20 <benley> or maybe I just fail at camera use
Sep 25 02:55:39 <rwhitby> What is the "best" (for developers, not media or advertisers) android developer community site, apart from *.google.com ?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Sep 25 02:59:57 2008