**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Sep 25 02:59:57 2008 Sep 25 03:11:03 rwhitby: http://www.helloandroid.com/ Sep 25 03:11:12 imo of course. Sep 25 03:12:03 It is plusminus's site. When ever I am stuck, which is often, I check to see if there is some example on his site. Sep 25 03:17:11 <_avatar> i thought anddev.org was plusminus's site. does he run both? Sep 25 03:18:11 Hmmm... maybe I am wrong Sep 25 03:18:29 <_avatar> doesn't really matter i guess, they're both good resources :) Sep 25 03:18:38 oyyo Sep 25 03:18:43 <_avatar> heya Sep 25 03:18:53 the market launch date? Sep 25 03:19:07 thought we had a roadmap.. but this market date is confusing Sep 25 03:19:30 Sorry I should have posted this link: http://www.anddev.org/ Sep 25 03:19:49 dmoffett, what's there? Sep 25 03:20:10 Someone was asking about a good developers site. Sep 25 03:20:27 Hello Muthu Sep 25 03:20:43 hey david Sep 25 03:20:56 man, i'm getting excited by the day Sep 25 03:21:03 android is finally REAL Sep 25 03:24:24 Imo the ball is in the developers court now. It is up to developers to provide compelling apps for users. Sep 25 03:24:37 oh yeah Sep 25 03:24:42 too much of pressure.. hehe Sep 25 03:26:52 Apple is stepping on their collective dicks by not letting some apps onto the iPhone. They have left the door open for Android. Sep 25 03:27:38 long live apple Sep 25 03:27:47 only then android can rock! Sep 25 03:33:08 meh, I think android will have to prove it can easy move from device to device and google is on the ball with drivers. Sep 25 03:33:36 the carriers is what bothering me Sep 25 03:33:39 it's competing more with wmobile 7 than anything else. Sep 25 03:33:48 even g1 is tied up to single provider now Sep 25 03:33:50 sux Sep 25 03:34:23 muthu: carriers are operating on an open platform, they can make changes as they like. Sep 25 03:34:51 right Sep 25 03:35:01 g1 coulda launched with a couple of carriers Sep 25 03:35:13 you ARE going to squeezed by carriers. get over it. Sep 25 03:36:05 yeah Sep 25 03:37:06 how do i make this compete with people looking to enter the space who have 5 friends on myspace AND what tim o'reilly calls "alpha geeks" Sep 25 03:37:51 how do i do it cheaper without having to cater to OEMs at unjustified costs, how do i create a community around a technology, how do i enable this community of technical and non technical users. Sep 25 03:38:12 open Sep 25 03:38:57 meh, that's like saying free markets and globalization is the answer to poverty. Sep 25 03:39:08 yo, is there a copy of the older API documentation online somewhere? Sep 25 03:39:08 google has a "tell" and they certainly are being quiet about it. Sep 25 03:39:19 I'm trying to update someone else's code to the 1.0 api Sep 25 03:39:21 1.0 r1 Sep 25 03:39:33 dcode: if you mean the SDK, oldver versions ship with documentation. Sep 25 03:39:42 there were rumors at one time that Google was thinking about becoming a carrier. Something about weather balloons? Sep 25 03:40:18 that's all rumors Sep 25 03:40:30 weather balloon was a private initiative Sep 25 03:40:43 and probably a long ways off. Sep 25 03:40:50 unix_remote: thanx...I didn't realize that Sep 25 03:41:03 dcode, if you are migrating then you need 1.0 api Sep 25 03:41:05 dcode: cheers, and happy coding. Sep 25 03:42:31 muthu: yeah...I'm using the 1.0 api, but I'm porting TwitterDroid to the 1.0 platform Sep 25 03:42:47 wow, twitterdroid Sep 25 03:42:50 should be nice Sep 25 03:42:52 it's "my" first Android app, and the first Java coding I've done in a while Sep 25 03:43:02 gr8 Sep 25 03:43:06 it was released last november, but uses some deprecated methods Sep 25 03:43:19 http://code.google.com/android/download_previous.html Sep 25 03:43:22 yeah, remember seeing it Sep 25 03:43:32 yeah...thanks...I'm downloading it, unix_remote Sep 25 03:44:46 * unix_remote thinks about creating an app request app. Sep 25 03:45:16 with proper semantic search, graphs, interaction with google code, feedback, etc. Sep 25 03:52:50 gah Sep 25 03:53:14 this thinkpad is ornery Sep 25 03:53:20 umdk1d3, do you have that preferences screen backed by db? Sep 25 03:54:01 but why do we need to keep preferences in db? Sep 25 03:54:05 http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/t-mobile-lifts-bandwidth-cap-for-google-phone/ Sep 25 03:54:37 umdk1d3: which one? how so? Sep 25 03:54:42 t-mobile can't afford bandwidth? Sep 25 03:55:04 unix_remote: i picked up a t61 Sep 25 03:55:18 but it just dies in bios setup or gentoo Sep 25 03:55:24 after a few minutes Sep 25 03:55:31 however winxp appears to be working fine :/ Sep 25 03:55:51 i thought it was a acpi issue at first, but it died in the buis Sep 25 03:55:52 *buis Sep 25 03:55:55 *bios Sep 25 03:56:03 umdk1d3: tons of people have linux working fine on the t61? Sep 25 03:56:05 ive pulled the battery, adn still the same deal Sep 25 03:56:11 yea i know, thats why i picked it up Sep 25 04:01:54 greetings Sep 25 04:02:13 umdk1d3: why not use a binary distro that has documented support? Sep 25 04:02:22 lol i think i figured it out Sep 25 04:02:27 might be a bios upgrade issue Sep 25 04:04:04 what is android Sep 25 04:04:14 its fun! ^.^ Sep 25 04:05:03 haha Sep 25 04:05:52 where do the android devs hang out Sep 25 04:05:55 wall what is fun in android :-) Sep 25 04:06:13 theres quite a few devs in here Sep 25 04:06:14 mostly idle tho Sep 25 04:06:48 im from russia Sep 25 04:07:14 if it interesting to you :-) Sep 25 04:07:44 only if you are female young and hot. :-) Sep 25 04:07:57 =O Sep 25 04:08:29 umdk1d3: cools. just getting in to the scene here. Sep 25 04:08:31 Sorry I could not resist. Sep 25 04:09:56 i am not female %) but i know about scene if you talking what i think Sep 25 04:10:36 I was just joking around. I should be more professional I guess. Sep 25 04:11:22 :-) i understand your joke Sep 25 04:11:43 whats up here? Sep 25 04:12:09 Maybe Russia can buy the US after the financial system crashes. That would be interesting. Sep 25 04:12:54 this financial crisis is scary Sep 25 04:13:02 Big time. Sep 25 04:13:09 i dont think so. are you need it this action?%) Sep 25 04:13:21 not sure what kind of protections we have here Sep 25 04:14:22 Unfortunately we are all much closer tied these days. What happens in one market affects the others. Sep 25 04:14:39 in russia people scared too about crisis Sep 25 04:14:53 prices is bursting Sep 25 04:15:30 because we using too much import goods Sep 25 04:15:40 It could get ugly before it gets better. Hopefully those guys in DC can work together and get this fixed. Sep 25 04:17:02 i buyed hp printer but ago several days their price bursted in $30 Sep 25 04:18:05 the price went up $30? Sep 25 04:18:16 what calls this crisis you think? Sep 25 04:18:46 yes cost is up Sep 25 04:18:48 mad spending Sep 25 04:18:52 Not sure about Russia but in the US the crisis was caused by people buying things they could not afford. Sep 25 04:19:01 buy a house and not being able to pay for it. Sep 25 04:19:23 to many defaulted loans and banks can't cover the losses and need money. Sep 25 04:19:27 Any news on if Android SDK will ever be implemented in C/C++? Sep 25 04:19:40 Not likely. Sep 25 04:19:45 Feces. Sep 25 04:19:51 youdonotexist: iPhone guy, eh? Sep 25 04:19:53 :) Sep 25 04:19:54 From posts I have seen here before. Sep 25 04:20:03 iPHone is Objective C. Sep 25 04:20:08 oh right ha Sep 25 04:20:12 poetic_folly: Yep. I want to jump ship. Nothing against Java. It's just not my thing. Sep 25 04:20:17 credit trouble? Sep 25 04:20:18 dmoffett: Sort of. Sep 25 04:20:28 russian banks stopping to take credits to many people Sep 25 04:20:32 java is the best language for mobile programming Sep 25 04:20:34 dmoffett: I code very little in Obj-C. Sep 25 04:20:41 youdonotexist: you made iPhone apps yet? Sep 25 04:20:42 on the iPhone? Sep 25 04:21:02 poetic_folly: I'm working on one right now for a competition. Sep 25 04:21:23 dmoffett: Yeah. You can write in pure C/C++ and just use Obj-C/Cocoa to interact with the iPhone interface. Sep 25 04:21:25 Why don't you use Objective C? Sep 25 04:21:38 youdonotexist: nice. i run modmyi.com. whatcha making? Sep 25 04:21:59 Objective C is far better than C++. Sep 25 04:22:13 i have iphone and all with prefix i %) Sep 25 04:22:14 * taaz seconds that Sep 25 04:22:20 hate Sep 25 04:22:31 i made mistake Sep 25 04:22:32 dmoffett: Mostly because I didn't feel like dealing with the overhead of learning the syntax when I could just port over another engine I already had going in C. Sep 25 04:22:43 true Sep 25 04:22:43 * youdonotexist checks out modmyi.com Sep 25 04:22:57 As long as you have gcc you should be good. Sep 25 04:23:16 anyway just curious. Sep 25 04:24:01 dmoffett: I can't mention much, but we're working on aggregating GPS information and utilizing that information.. for something. :P I'm technically under the HUGE NDA Apple makes you enter into. Sep 25 04:24:23 wow, you can't even talk about your app Sep 25 04:24:30 Have fun and good luck. Sounds like a good project. Sep 25 04:24:57 muthu: Unfortunately not. Apparently, they're going as far as not allowing people to talk about the rejection letters they get when Apple denies their app in the App Store. Sep 25 04:25:07 muthu: Which was why I was looking into Android. Sep 25 04:25:21 you have come to the right place Sep 25 04:25:26 android is JOY Sep 25 04:25:48 you'll be up and running in 24hrs Sep 25 04:26:11 After a refresher on java, that is. Sep 25 04:26:20 I haven't coded in Java in some time. Sep 25 04:26:37 is there a terminal application for android? Sep 25 04:27:05 there is.. must be in googlecode Sep 25 04:27:33 what is it called? Sep 25 04:27:38 24 hrs or your money back Sep 25 04:27:39 There is an ssh client Sep 25 04:27:41 http://www.anddev.org/connectbot_-_android_ssh-client-t304.html Sep 25 04:27:46 f00f-, hehe Sep 25 04:28:53 what youdonotexist speaks of, is why i won't be touching apple platforms for the near future Sep 25 04:28:58 Wait.. this is interesting. Sep 25 04:28:59 http://www.mosync.com/ Sep 25 04:30:34 wtf Sep 25 04:30:39 C ? Sep 25 04:31:03 give me a break Sep 25 04:31:22 lol Sep 25 04:31:40 C must be banned Sep 25 04:32:05 What do you guys have against C? Not that I really want to get into an argument. I'm just interested. Sep 25 04:32:45 we just like hating C Sep 25 04:33:24 Cool by me. :P Sep 25 04:33:32 umm Sep 25 04:33:34 mobile development Sep 25 04:33:49 depends onthe objective Sep 25 04:34:06 why do you need low-level language on mobile platforms? Sep 25 04:34:10 usually it complicates things Sep 25 04:34:21 android ssh client is a must-have. but what keys do you use on G1 for esc and ctrl and so on? Sep 25 04:34:30 set up an escape character Sep 25 04:34:54 ? Sep 25 04:36:34 wow, the dream skins are cool Sep 25 04:37:20 taaz, there's no esc or ctrl Sep 25 04:38:01 yeah, that's my point Sep 25 04:38:08 there's a key Sep 25 04:38:09 vim is hard to use without keys like that :) Sep 25 04:38:10 that is a meta key Sep 25 04:42:20 Will android (specifically, the G1) be able to pair with bluetooh GPS receivers to replace the internal AGPS? Sep 25 04:43:28 wellllll i must have magic bricking hands Sep 25 04:43:35 i bricked my new thinkpad loool Sep 25 04:43:40 oh oh Sep 25 04:43:55 sounds like i have a nice waranty tho, and there is a place that willdo local repairs here in the valley Sep 25 04:44:17 I saw that the bluetooth stack was cut down for release - so I presume if A2DP isn't there that bluetooth GPS units wont be supported right away either - but (unlike the iPhone) - it will eventually be possible to use a bluetooth SiRF III-based (read: awesome) GPS unit with a phone like the G1, right? Sep 25 04:44:34 f00f-: which key? can you override normal function of menu and search? that might work. or override one alt and shift. Sep 25 04:46:43 (9why is the google street view guy holding baloons?) Sep 25 04:48:08 umdk1d3: lol, did you reboot while flashing? Sep 25 04:51:03 should I wait to get this adroid phone or is it a safe buy? Sep 25 04:51:28 will it have push email? I'm currently on a windows mobile phone and I need this push email. Sep 25 04:51:53 will programs become as readily available as windows mobile phones? Sep 25 04:53:55 so is it true that G1 does not support multiple users? Sep 25 04:54:27 you type Ctrl-Alt-Delete to login Sep 25 04:54:36 ?? Sep 25 04:54:42 WildCaterpillar, what do you mean Sep 25 04:54:42 more to the point: if i let someone borrow my phone Sep 25 04:54:49 is everything open to that person Sep 25 04:54:50 gmail Sep 25 04:54:52 calendar Sep 25 04:54:53 etc Sep 25 04:55:03 id assume so Sep 25 04:55:08 hmm Sep 25 04:55:25 i really don't like that. i hope that changes Sep 25 04:55:54 does any other phone support that? Sep 25 04:55:55 which phone does that? Sep 25 04:56:09 none, but no other phone is constantly logged into gmail either Sep 25 04:56:11 that is the point Sep 25 04:56:31 i don't want my life open to people that i let borrow my phone to make a couple calls Sep 25 04:56:40 phones with push email and imap are Sep 25 04:56:49 ahh...i've never used those Sep 25 04:57:20 If linux is the underwear of android, I think it should be relatively straightforward to put some kind of multi-user setup in there... but then again - who wants to have to log in to their own phone? Sep 25 04:57:26 shouldn't be so free with ur phone. are you charging them by the minute? :) Sep 25 04:57:31 haha Sep 25 04:57:33 Need kind of a Valet Key mode for the phone. Smells like an app to me. Sep 25 04:57:51 no its just that i might have stuff in my emails that i dont necessary want guests to see Sep 25 04:57:53 I do! I log into my phone after 15min of inactivity Sep 25 04:58:05 for example, private material. Sep 25 04:58:11 you log into your phone, or you unlock your phone with a PIN or some sort? Sep 25 04:58:14 yeah, i would rather login to my phone Sep 25 04:58:16 like you... I don't want my contacts, emails and downloads falling into hands they don't belong Sep 25 04:58:27 or at least, i would want two unlock codes Sep 25 04:58:28 I lock my phone Sep 25 04:58:32 one to get full access Sep 25 04:58:32 WildCaterpillar, are you afraid your gf will see that risque porno youve got Sep 25 04:58:39 another to get restricted access Sep 25 04:58:46 gambler: not everything comes back to porn :) Sep 25 04:58:54 but the reality Sep 25 04:59:01 is that gmail and other such progs Sep 25 04:59:02 but it starts there Sep 25 04:59:04 * RyeBrye thinks of interesting uses of the accelerometer in certain genres of applications... Sep 25 04:59:09 hold a plethora of personal informatin Sep 25 04:59:14 whereas making a call is relatively simple Sep 25 04:59:19 and impersonal Sep 25 04:59:40 where can i see this in action. i want to know if it will work as exchange does? Sep 25 04:59:55 yeah, multiple users or multiple unlock access levels would be ideal Sep 25 05:00:13 currently i have google apps and i have that forwarded to web2mail so that i can have the push option but i would like to have it all set up with my google apps Sep 25 05:00:27 What's the next android phone coming out? The G1 is exciting but has a lot of WTF's to it Sep 25 05:00:56 since it is a google phone... you should be able to "log" out of google and have it in guest mode. that would be ideal for you Sep 25 05:01:03 exactly Sep 25 05:01:10 but i heard that the phone is locked to one account Sep 25 05:01:23 so you couldn't even use a work account and a personal account Sep 25 05:01:36 i really wanted my next phone to have "real" gps on it ... but at under $200... i just can't pass up the offer Sep 25 05:01:48 does this not have "real" gps? Sep 25 05:01:48 I was wondering if you could use a bluetooth GPS unit Sep 25 05:01:54 ugh... thats that stupid iphone mess Sep 25 05:02:15 ...i want to have hidden contacts as well....probably will extend that feature once i get cracking at the phone Sep 25 05:02:19 i have MANY google accounts and my "gmail" is not my main Sep 25 05:02:20 No phone will ever bundle in a SiRF III chipset because people who buy phones are generally dumbasses Sep 25 05:02:44 i actually believe one of the HTC's has it Sep 25 05:02:51 That'd be sweet Sep 25 05:02:56 PoohbaLT: so if i am undestand correctly, you will only be able to use one of those acounts on your phone Sep 25 05:03:09 i suppose you could login the old fashioned way via the browser Sep 25 05:03:12 but you won't get push Sep 25 05:03:17 or alerts Sep 25 05:03:18 etc. Sep 25 05:03:54 WildCaterpillar: that will suck. Not as bad if the one I can use is my google apps account and it isn't restricted to gmail but still... I'm not getting rid of my Dash just yet Sep 25 05:04:35 I hated the dash Sep 25 05:04:43 so you do get push. thats a good thing. what about the option to switch via the setup that you have in google apps. i have multiple accounts to send from and receive in my google apps account Sep 25 05:04:55 RyeBrye: what are you using in place of it Sep 25 05:05:31 Well - I went to a Sony Ericsson P990 - but that one died on me, and I'm "between" phones right now, so just using an old crappy Samsung slider phone Sep 25 05:05:33 expresso stopped working... but Vault does work... whoda thunked Sep 25 05:05:47 what did u do with the Dash? Sep 25 05:05:59 I like it on 6.1 Sep 25 05:06:06 i'm excited....there is a lot of potential, but i feel that it definitely has some shortcomings...i want a phone to be like an OS to me.... Sep 25 05:06:06 It was a corporate phone, so I gave it back when I left that job Sep 25 05:06:15 and this seems a bit too personalized to my gmail account Sep 25 05:06:19 it was ok on 6, sucked on 5 Sep 25 05:06:51 that will slow down the phone Sep 25 05:06:53 The form factor just felt too "I wish I was a blackberry" to me Sep 25 05:07:05 oh been meaning to ask people Sep 25 05:07:05 just as fast switching is a hinderance on windows Sep 25 05:07:13 anyone have an iphone? how do you hold it? Sep 25 05:07:21 i have a PEBL, and it is small...considering G1 Sep 25 05:07:22 what do you mean? Sep 25 05:07:30 but i am confused about where people put the phone Sep 25 05:07:30 WildCaterpillar: i hold it like a phone. :D Sep 25 05:07:33 in a pocket? Sep 25 05:07:36 yah Sep 25 05:07:55 the front left one, to be exact. :D Sep 25 05:07:57 my ex keeps hers in her purse Sep 25 05:08:01 seems like it would be huge? Sep 25 05:08:04 i guess they are the bigger of the phones out Sep 25 05:08:15 nah, WildCaterpillar, its not really at all Sep 25 05:08:20 my current phone is 3x1.5x.6 Sep 25 05:08:21 so thing Sep 25 05:08:23 thin Sep 25 05:08:29 so you get used to it eventually Sep 25 05:08:40 ? Sep 25 05:08:51 so... with this sdk... i can load it up and simulate? does it come with an emulator? Sep 25 05:08:52 definitely - i was immediately ok with it actually Sep 25 05:08:59 PoohbaLT: yah Sep 25 05:09:17 hey, what's the word on requirements/time to get into Android Market? Sep 25 05:09:21 The G1 wont roam onto AT&T's 3G network the way that the EDGE roams, will it? Sep 25 05:09:33 doubt it Sep 25 05:09:41 G1 doesn't use the same frequency as AT&T for 3G. Sep 25 05:09:48 what's the problem with roaming... u don't pay for it Sep 25 05:09:53 Yeah, such a shame :( Sep 25 05:09:54 i guess u loose features? Sep 25 05:10:06 G1 supports UMTS 1700/2100, 1700 being T-Mobile's, and 2100 found outside the US Sep 25 05:11:21 to those of you in relationships....do your "others" know all your passwords to gmail etc? Sep 25 05:11:36 no Sep 25 05:11:46 but they could probably get access with my security questions Sep 25 05:11:58 are you okay with your other viewing your gmail account Sep 25 05:12:04 i am not so sure that i am...not married Sep 25 05:12:25 and i cant have a phone locked and her not know how to get in Sep 25 05:12:26 WildCaterpillar, yes Sep 25 05:12:44 so i am ok with letting her in, just not sure about access to all my private data Sep 25 05:12:46 u can still do imap for the other accounts it seems Sep 25 05:12:46 my gf knows all my weak passwords. the only one she doesnt have is my bank account Sep 25 05:13:00 but i trust my gf, you apparently do not :) Sep 25 05:13:01 hm...maybe i am too secretive.. Sep 25 05:13:19 or maybe your gf isn't trustworthy? :) Sep 25 05:13:42 I'm more worried about google logging all the shit I do and everwhere I go - if you disable "Web history" in your account, will that be honored for the G1 - or am I going to wake up one morning and see Adwords ads on my ceiling? Sep 25 05:13:58 haha Sep 25 05:14:27 RyeBrye, wait for mobeegal Sep 25 05:14:37 we'll add a incognito mode Sep 25 05:14:46 no video. wth??? Sep 25 05:15:02 is that just a software limitation? Sep 25 05:15:06 it has a camera Sep 25 05:15:10 WildCaterpillar, why not keep two phones, one for your girlfriend and one for your extracirricular activities Sep 25 05:15:13 haha Sep 25 05:15:18 mobeegal - is that going to be a replacement browser? Sep 25 05:15:33 yeah but it has no video playback except for youtube Sep 25 05:15:39 if you ad an adblock feature to it, I'll defiitely use that :) Sep 25 05:15:39 we'll be releasing a video camera Sep 25 05:15:44 RyeBrye, sure Sep 25 05:16:01 and adblock is as easy as blocking a few ip's from your browser Sep 25 05:16:01 the cam doesn't do video? Sep 25 05:16:08 umdk1d3: where did you end up getting the thinkpad from? Sep 25 05:16:10 The irony of using adblock on a Google-funded OS would be awesome Sep 25 05:16:20 will this be a software upgrade or will i need to get a new phone to get video? Sep 25 05:16:32 Well - yes - blocking IP's is good for adblock, but Adblock plus has a few other features like hiding the div's entirely to reflow content... etc. Sep 25 05:16:54 we'll be releasing a video camera for free through Android Market Sep 25 05:17:03 RyeBrye: true Sep 25 05:17:59 we? are you able to release the name of this company? Sep 25 05:18:10 i'm interested to know which companies are developing for andriod Sep 25 05:18:25 If I can ssh into an android phone and tinker with the linux stuff (at bare minimum, edit hosts file - but it would be really nice if I could tinker with actual network settings - and set up bridging and stuff) Sep 25 05:18:28 that would be nice Sep 25 05:19:54 gambler: much easier would be to have an "guest" account and fast user switching...then i give the gf the guest unlock password ;) Sep 25 05:20:36 i don't really understand why the phone needs to be locked to a single gmail user... Sep 25 05:20:46 or for that matter, why one has to have a gmail account at all Sep 25 05:21:07 it would be nice to have multiple users, non-gmail users...and all Sep 25 05:21:13 WildCaterpillar: really? from a company that makes most of it's profits from search based ad revenue? Sep 25 05:21:16 really? Sep 25 05:21:30 ok fine, so at least a gmail account Sep 25 05:21:35 but why not multiple gmail accounts Sep 25 05:21:43 you dont think she is going to notice something is up when you lock her out with a 250 character password and retina scan? Sep 25 05:22:09 haha that is why false-transparency is the key Sep 25 05:22:27 its a google phone... thats like the iphone not having a ... account Sep 25 05:22:34 i can' tthink of the damn word Sep 25 05:22:39 iTunes... thats it Sep 25 05:23:01 yeah, makes sense .... but a single gmail account is an unneeded restriction Sep 25 05:23:17 it seems to me that Google didn't want to put too much time into it and just wanted to get it out there and stable (we'll see how stable it is soon enough) Sep 25 05:23:28 well...i think that is a bit harsh Sep 25 05:23:29 and then let the open market developers do the rest of the work Sep 25 05:23:35 WildCaterpillar: oh, sorry. Sep 25 05:23:35 i think they put a lot of time into it Sep 25 05:23:39 i run modmygphone.com Sep 25 05:23:51 ahh...sweet, i'll follow it now Sep 25 05:24:18 (and modmymoto.com, and modmyi.com, hahaha) Sep 25 05:24:49 but yah, i was surprised video wasn't included, so we've pretty much got that done already. will def be ready by launch Sep 25 05:25:16 when i ask: "can you do *** on a G1" questions, are people speaking from personal experience....ie, do people have this phone Sep 25 05:25:25 or are most answers speculation or from news releases Sep 25 05:25:35 i haven't seen anyone who has one Sep 25 05:25:48 i wonder how easy it is to do the factory restore Sep 25 05:26:00 from the sound of it, you don't lose anything Sep 25 05:26:05 hopefully as easy as it was for the windows mobile phones Sep 25 05:26:10 so maybe that is the quickest route to supporting multiple gmail accounts Sep 25 05:26:50 essentially, i'd want the option to login using another account when attempting to unlock the phone Sep 25 05:27:08 just like any other multi-user OS Sep 25 05:28:03 can i put android on my Dash right now? Sep 25 05:28:48 planning to buy unlocked and use local gsm carrier Sep 25 05:29:33 you think you'll be able to "buy" unlocked Sep 25 05:29:46 $400 is for unlocked Sep 25 05:29:50 oh wow! Sep 25 05:30:19 though, i already have t-mobile Sep 25 05:30:31 and i can probably unlock it afterwards via some hack (hopefully) Sep 25 05:31:20 yup Sep 25 05:32:37 so there is an emulator available? i want to see what kind of application locking is available Sep 25 05:34:02 ok, android is open source and running linux, correct? why can't I find a way to type ps Sep 25 05:34:09 and see the processes ? Sep 25 05:34:27 one of the first thing in their demo almost a year ago, they claimed it was supposed to happen Sep 25 05:35:02 * WildCaterpillar sees that minerale has answer my question, essentially Sep 25 05:35:02 minerale: someone was explaining this yesterday I think. I don't think there's access to open a ptty through pioctl in Java Sep 25 05:35:49 i assume it will be easily software unlockable Sep 25 05:36:19 agreed. well, it better be Sep 25 05:36:28 otherwise i don't quite know how it is "open" Sep 25 05:36:52 anyone know a ubuntu hardy package for android emulator Sep 25 05:37:03 got it Sep 25 05:37:05 freely available SDK, open source software stack Sep 25 05:37:10 how much more open is there? Sep 25 05:37:59 exactly, then it should be simple to unlock the phone Sep 25 05:38:03 correct? Sep 25 05:38:22 I'm guessing the baseband isn't opensource Sep 25 05:39:02 WildCaterpillar: well, no, might be a cryptographic scheme to keep it from being flashed, or something Sep 25 05:40:02 and I assume the driver for GSM stuff is closed (afaik, there isn't a single gsm modem that's OSS) Sep 25 05:40:17 i think that is right, even openmoko has some issues with that Sep 25 05:40:35 right Sep 25 05:40:48 no, maybe google has more sway than a startup, but still Sep 25 05:41:10 s/no/now (assummed) Sep 25 05:41:26 haha s/mm/m/ Sep 25 06:02:32 WildCaterpillar: keep in mind that radio stuff is often binary-only to comply with some FCC restrictions Sep 25 06:09:34 romainguy: ca va? Sep 25 06:09:44 ça va :) Sep 25 06:12:06 romainguy: =D Sep 25 06:12:34 umdk1d3: you're making me go to the office on my last day of vacation :p Sep 25 06:12:44 aww :( Sep 25 06:12:47 sry about that Sep 25 06:12:52 no worry :) Sep 25 06:12:53 we could do tuesday ;) Sep 25 06:13:19 nah, that's okay :)) Sep 25 06:13:31 I might just showed up covered in dust in a dirty rental car ^^ Sep 25 06:13:38 lol Sep 25 06:15:57 romainguy: you've been shooting a lot, no? Sep 25 06:16:09 not as much as the last time, but yes :) Sep 25 06:16:16 only 400 photos today Sep 25 06:16:26 ::nod:: Sep 25 06:16:30 I guess I learned when and what to shoot ^^ Sep 25 06:17:40 it seems a lot easier to shoot a whole lot when you're shooting people Sep 25 06:18:04 not easier than with shooting landscape Sep 25 06:19:03 hmm... what sorts of things would you take a bunch of frames of? Sep 25 06:19:12 landscapes :) Sep 25 06:19:56 :o) Sep 25 06:24:35 on wired.com, there's a little blurb about t-mobile working with google to ensure that voip won't work on it...is this true? and if so, how are they managing to accomplish this if the platform is open source? Sep 25 06:25:39 Doesn't T-mobile encourage voip over wifi on phones when they are at home? Sep 25 06:26:18 hm true Sep 25 06:26:22 yes, there is a t-mobile@home service that utilizes wifi and a t-mobile wifi router Sep 25 06:26:39 I take it G1 doesn't work on the t-mobile@home? Sep 25 06:26:51 I haven't heard Sep 25 06:26:53 once the whole phone is opened, just download the source and patch out any crap - recompile - and reflash, right? Sep 25 06:26:54 i wonder if theyve written an android client for that, or if it just magically creates a femptocell or something Sep 25 06:27:03 RyeBrye, that's what I would imagine... Sep 25 06:27:15 RyeBrye: hopefully, the biggest question would be the bootloader process Sep 25 06:27:19 I have read that there is no SIP stack on android right now... Sep 25 06:27:36 but it's not like we don't have open source sip stacks we could just drop in... Sep 25 06:27:52 The phone isn't exactly "open" if you can't reflash the whole thing - should be interesting to see what happens Sep 25 06:27:52 I guess my question is, what would be stopping end-users from doing this? Sep 25 06:28:31 precisely....if we can't flash it to source that we build ourselves, then I'm calling shenanigans on their open phone Sep 25 06:28:56 * RyeBrye hopes to run an asterisk PBX on the thing... ;) Sep 25 06:29:00 in that situation, it's no more open than, say, symbian Sep 25 06:29:03 http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/09/24/ex-google-mobile-product-manager-criticizes-android/ Sep 25 06:29:21 ooh remind me, android plays ogg out of the box right? Sep 25 06:29:21 this was the wired blurb: http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/09/three-years-and.html Sep 25 06:29:54 I don't necessarily want asterisk...but something building on the telepathy framework and sofia-sip would be a dream Sep 25 06:30:09 umdk1d3: it does Sep 25 06:30:28 sorta like what maemo has... Sep 25 06:30:33 =D Sep 25 06:30:51 heck, I'd even settle for the SIP clients in the nokia N/E series phones...those do work Sep 25 06:31:38 It'd kick some major ass if you could have access to a full VOIP dialer with a nice interface to enter whatever Caller-ID you want to spoof when dialing :) Sep 25 06:32:40 ya, I do that via sequential number dialing with * right now....but if I had a gui for it....that would be quite lovely Sep 25 06:33:01 one can dream I suppose... Sep 25 06:33:22 Or "Pick which contact you want to spoof and listen to their voicemail" if they don't have it set up to ask for a PIN Sep 25 06:33:34 "Call Stan from Steve's phone number" ;) Sep 25 06:33:55 a little drag and drop spoofing inteface :) Sep 25 06:34:15 Is the voice part of the call hands off to android developers? Sep 25 06:34:19 I just hope google lives up to the promise....I'm really hoping this thing truly is openmoko on steriods with massive vendor support Sep 25 06:34:59 or could you write something that would process the audio stream and tweak it - like a voice changer or a music -> phone player Sep 25 06:35:11 RyeBrye, I don't know...I haven't torn through the sdk yet...but I'm pretty sure they're going to have to restrict some parts of the phone, like the gsm module registers, etc Sep 25 06:35:24 otherwise you'd have a subsidized device to make gsm spoofs with Sep 25 06:35:46 looking at the emulator now...in the "Call Logs", i can't seem to delete a particular call...only to clear them all Sep 25 06:35:47 Yeah, I'm thinking the spoofing would have to be done over VOIP - not at the gsm level Sep 25 06:35:49 is that accurate? Sep 25 06:35:49 rabelais: there are things that depend on the manufacturer Sep 25 06:35:53 for instance hardware drivers Sep 25 06:36:14 I think it would be awesome to have a voice scrambler app Sep 25 06:36:22 RyeBrye, I mean mode like software level sim id cloning Sep 25 06:36:43 ah, gotcha Sep 25 06:36:52 romainguy, certainly....but I'd be willing to bet we're not going to see any source for that stuff Sep 25 06:36:53 man, this seems to be lacking some very basic functionality Sep 25 06:36:57 hopefully a quick fix Sep 25 06:37:15 iphone still lacks copy and paste... Sep 25 06:37:31 rabelais: well as I said, it depends Sep 25 06:37:36 some will be open source, some won't be Sep 25 06:37:50 romainguy, do you know any gsm modules that have open source drivers? Sep 25 06:37:51 ...what is the difference between "hold" and "mute" Sep 25 06:38:10 hold you hear no audio Sep 25 06:38:12 mute you do Sep 25 06:38:22 either way the other person hears no audio Sep 25 06:38:40 what about sending audio....yes on mute, no on hold? Sep 25 06:38:50 oh due Sep 25 06:38:51 duh Sep 25 06:38:56 sorry, i didn't see what you wrote Sep 25 06:40:31 romainguy, I'm quite sure it won't happen...the industry is too locked down to open that up...it would completely disrupt the network infrastructure if they did... Sep 25 06:40:40 right now the only people that can spoof sim cards are those that have relatively expensive sim card cloners Sep 25 06:40:59 or those crazies that have even more expensive gsm sniffers... Sep 25 06:41:29 rabelais: I'm talking about hardware in general, not the radio in particular Sep 25 06:41:36 ah, sorry Sep 25 06:42:11 my main hangup is the radio...everything else is fine, it's just that dang radio us mere mortals will never be able to touch Sep 25 06:43:09 rabelais: I don't get access to the radio source code either :) Sep 25 06:43:19 funny :P Sep 25 06:43:31 I'm ok with that Sep 25 06:44:23 but at least this will (hopefully) be a step in the right direction...I'd love to make voip calls over 3G on android Sep 25 06:44:44 is the source for the os available yet? eg, can i modify the "call log" functionality Sep 25 06:45:12 not yet Sep 25 06:45:18 not that I've seen Sep 25 06:45:27 when the first devices launch Sep 25 06:45:34 WildCaterpillar: timeline says october? Sep 25 06:45:35 is that the promise? Sep 25 06:45:50 that's what we announced Sep 25 06:46:04 sweet...will we have an emulator to run locally? Sep 25 06:46:05 when they talk about replacing modules of the thing based on preferences (i.e you pick whatever photo picker you want and it gets used throughout all apps...) - is the actual thing that does the management of those modules replaceable? Sep 25 06:46:12 rabelais: already running it Sep 25 06:46:20 rabelais: ?? Sep 25 06:46:25 romainguy: 'we' ? you a google employee too? Sep 25 06:46:29 summatusmentis: yes Sep 25 06:46:40 by too, I mean in addition to others I've seen in here, not me :) Sep 25 06:46:52 gorgeous Sep 25 06:47:01 RyeBrye: I don't understand the question? Sep 25 06:47:19 i think...just wondering if there is an emulator available Sep 25 06:47:20 we released a video that shows examples of replacing existing modules Sep 25 06:47:24 like the Home screen Sep 25 06:47:28 WildCaterpillar: yes, in the SDK Sep 25 06:47:39 :) i know, running it now Sep 25 06:47:43 Yeah, it's late so my brain is a little shot - but in one of the videos talking at a high level, there was a concept of the OS having things be pluggable - and I think the video described replacing a photo picker Sep 25 06:47:53 yes Sep 25 06:47:55 one sec Sep 25 06:48:10 the video was pretty nebulous - using phrases like "android chooses the best available module" or something like that Sep 25 06:48:28 RyeBrye: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aUjukCdPyQ Sep 25 06:48:31 that's a new video Sep 25 06:48:50 I think I've read this elsewhere, but I would like to confirm...what about the data stored locally? will developed apps have the ability to be integrated as nicely as native apps with regards to access/modification of things like the contact list or the calendar? Sep 25 06:49:10 yes Sep 25 06:49:23 if the app exposes a content provider Sep 25 06:49:26 should just be open APIs right? Sep 25 06:49:37 that's so beautiful Sep 25 06:49:55 rabelais: you might want to look at http://code.google.com/android/documentation.html -- it goes through all this stuff Sep 25 06:50:04 that's been once of the central problems that's annoyed the heck out of me with other platforms...you end up with a unique contact list for every application you run...and none of them talk to each other Sep 25 06:50:29 thanks gdsx, I'll do some reading :) Sep 25 06:50:46 rabelais: I guess that's what caused the whole syncing thing to happen Sep 25 06:50:50 Will I be able to use a bluetooth GPS unit as my primary location provider if I don't like waiting forever for AGPS to guess where I am? Sep 25 06:51:28 romainguy: thanks for vid link...i'm getting excited! Sep 25 06:52:02 is there a price tagged for an unlocked G1? Sep 25 06:52:20 i saw something like 499 Sep 25 06:52:25 I've been seeing $399 Sep 25 06:52:26 but probably cheaper Sep 25 06:52:28 399 without contract and 90 days till the unlock Sep 25 06:52:29 I think? Sep 25 06:52:34 yeah, anno^da_ 's right Sep 25 06:52:51 really? not $800? Sep 25 06:52:55 But it will be probably cheaper. Sep 25 06:52:59 I heard that eBay has all the cheapest prices (j/k :o) Sep 25 06:53:04 The CTO confirmed that. Sep 25 06:53:09 it's fun to check the eBay prices out, though Sep 25 06:53:14 :-) yeah Sep 25 06:53:18 yeah i am seeing 399 more often Sep 25 06:53:24 fuck i forgot tttto sell my prototype on ebay Sep 25 06:53:29 anno^da_, can i use the unlocked one with other gsm carriers? Sep 25 06:53:35 RyeBrye: er, AGPS is actually used to give you a fix faster Sep 25 06:53:41 DannyB: I'll buy it; do you take paypal? Sep 25 06:53:48 muthu, yes, generally that's what unlocked means :) Sep 25 06:53:49 lol is anyone selling phones yet on ebay? /me loox Sep 25 06:53:51 muthu: yeah from what I got to know you can Sep 25 06:53:54 gdsx: sure! Sep 25 06:53:55 DannyB: I'm glad I kept a pile of them ) Sep 25 06:53:59 muthu: after the 90 days, presumably Sep 25 06:53:59 gr8 Sep 25 06:54:09 romainguy: yeah but you probably have the ones with the broken battery charging :) Sep 25 06:54:13 and romainguy will import them for us ;) *joking* Sep 25 06:54:15 wait...after 90 days? Sep 25 06:54:16 i have to use it with a local indian gsm carrier Sep 25 06:54:23 DannyB: they seem fine to me so far :) Sep 25 06:54:32 what if I just want to buy the phone, and screw t-mobile service? Sep 25 06:54:52 DannyB: btw, I have two G1 with me, and after 2,400 miles on the road, I'm happy to say they're just awesome travel companions :) Sep 25 06:54:53 what if i just want to do what i want, and not have to ever have any consequences Sep 25 06:54:58 oh shit, wait 30 days Sep 25 06:55:04 err 90 Sep 25 06:55:04 rabelais: it's locked for 90 days to t-mobile Sep 25 06:55:10 romainguy: i stopped playing with my iphone 3g because it doesn't have my calendar Sep 25 06:55:14 DannyB: isn't that what being an Engilawyer is all about? Sep 25 06:55:29 summatusmentis, isn't there a clause about being able to cancel your plan if you are not happy within 14 days or something? Sep 25 06:55:35 gdsx: don't try to muscle in on my field, baby Sep 25 06:55:35 :) Sep 25 06:55:39 DannyB: I stopped using my iPhone because using several apps at once is just a freakin' pain Sep 25 06:55:49 * gdsx laughs Sep 25 06:55:52 loool someone is selling them http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140269763980 Sep 25 06:56:00 legit tho looks like Sep 25 06:56:05 romainguy - I'll put a SiRF III bluetooth with its own dedicated battery getting fixes in less than 1 second on a hot start against any phone's built in GPS, and getting cold-start fixes of 35 seconds up against any phone's built-in GPS any day Sep 25 06:56:15 rabelais: yeah, but this is different. You buy a phone outright, for $399, and after 90 days, TMob will give you the unlock code Sep 25 06:56:20 anyone taking typos: i found one on http://code.google.com/android/devel/security.html Sep 25 06:56:29 romain: you're dual-devicing it? ^^ Sep 25 06:56:45 he uses two devices Sep 25 06:56:49 one for his family in CA Sep 25 06:56:50 summatusmentis, can they do that? don't you own the phone completely if you buy it for $399? Sep 25 06:56:52 and one for his family in NY Sep 25 06:56:53 woooooooah /me mind blows Sep 25 06:57:00 750? expensive Sep 25 06:57:03 rabelais: yes, it's still locked to their network Sep 25 06:57:03 swetland: one with a T-Mobile SIM, the other with my iPhone's AT&T SIM :) Sep 25 06:57:08 what if copy/paste on android had a shared clipboard with your laptop/desktop? Sep 25 06:57:10 you madman! Sep 25 06:57:24 i have a cingular test sim i tether just to piss off at&t Sep 25 06:57:25 swetland: interestingly, I often have T-Mobile reception in remote areas, but no AT&T Sep 25 06:57:30 and someones gotta write delicious for android browser Sep 25 06:57:40 summatusmentis, but why the 90 day wait? can't you insist that they give you the unlock code immediately because you own the phone at that point? Sep 25 06:57:48 I want somebody to write adblock for the android browser Sep 25 06:57:52 make my internets faster, please! Sep 25 06:57:52 I even managed to send a few pictures from the camera through Gmail when I was somewhere in Zion, above 7,000 feet Sep 25 06:57:58 nice Sep 25 06:58:00 rabelais: I'm not sure, I think it's just TMob policy Sep 25 06:58:15 rabelais: they can put whatever they feel like in the contract tho Sep 25 06:58:16 you can try and insist, but they probably won't give it to you Sep 25 06:58:20 none of my iphone apps actually *do* anything interesting Sep 25 06:58:23 great, facebook for the iphone Sep 25 06:58:26 just what i've never wanted Sep 25 06:58:33 romainguy - that was probably US 890 towers not T-mobile towers - I'm in Zion all the time and I'm always roaming there Sep 25 06:58:34 friendfeed for gphone Sep 25 06:58:37 DannyB: you're clearly waiting for the pull-my-finger app Sep 25 06:58:39 i realized other than games, nobody has made an app i give a fuck a bout Sep 25 06:58:41 DannyB: I know you are Sep 25 06:58:45 hmm so there is face dection in android,..... Sep 25 06:58:45 subsidized phone policy is one thing...I completely understand.... Sep 25 06:58:48 on the iphone, anyway Sep 25 06:58:55 so what is the deal with the data transfer limits? Sep 25 06:58:58 we need cat detection, so it can automatically make loolcats =D ROFL Sep 25 06:58:59 imposed by tmobile Sep 25 06:59:00 but I have had different experiences with full priced phones Sep 25 06:59:11 WildCaterpillar: they retracted their cap statement :) Sep 25 06:59:15 rabelais: subsidized generally means you're tied for two years Sep 25 06:59:17 RyeBrye: I didnt' say it was T-Mobile network there :) Sep 25 06:59:41 I'm a bit concerend about the roaming in other countries and the coast. Is there an easy way to shut down all the internet services while you are in foreign countries and dont want to pay the high prices? Sep 25 06:59:41 rabelais: you could technically cancle before 90 days, but they wouldn't give you the unlock code, I don't think Sep 25 06:59:49 anno^da_: yes Sep 25 06:59:57 that's what I'm doing with my personal AT&T SIM Sep 25 07:00:01 I turn off roaming Sep 25 07:00:06 DannyB: wondering...no more 1GB limits! Sep 25 07:00:07 (data roaming that is) Sep 25 07:00:16 Ah great thx romainguy. Sep 25 07:00:48 summatusmentis, by no means am I trying to cheat them out of a deal here...but I think they don't have the right to refuse an unlock request for a phone that I actually own outright (i.e. $399 price) Sep 25 07:00:55 Because the prices in foreign countries are not really affordable for me. (Besides that I dont want to pay these prices.) Sep 25 07:01:18 rabelais: they're just trying to keep business Sep 25 07:01:19 T-mobile has always been good with unlock codes - even for phones you buy subsidized... if you've had an account with them for a while you can just call them and ask for one Sep 25 07:01:25 summatusmentis, certainly Sep 25 07:01:28 T-mobile is not AT&T Sep 25 07:01:47 RyeBrye: according to what I've been reading, it's gotta be after 90 days Sep 25 07:01:55 Yeah, that's probably the policy Sep 25 07:01:56 * umdk1d3 ponders how to write a cat-detection machine learning algorithm Sep 25 07:02:04 does htc plan to have any other distributors of the phone? amazon, buy.com, newegg? Sep 25 07:02:20 rabelais: I'd doubt it Sep 25 07:02:24 umdk1d3: it's been done Sep 25 07:02:27 rabelais: I think they have some deals worked out with a couple hawkers in NYC Sep 25 07:02:34 DannyB: i havent found muhc on google scholar tho Sep 25 07:02:37 umdk1d3: search the internet for the guy with the pet door that detects his cat and ensures it is not holding animals Sep 25 07:02:46 like say, dead birds/rodents Sep 25 07:02:47 ooh! Sep 25 07:02:47 If you have been on t-mobile for a long time, and you haven't been a naughty pet - you can probably talk nicely to the rep and they can probably get you an unlock code Sep 25 07:02:54 he used something fairly simple Sep 25 07:02:56 gdsx, works for me....that's where I got my nokia E51, hehe Sep 25 07:02:58 and got fine results Sep 25 07:03:00 they still have the early termination fee if you do bolt on them before a contract is up Sep 25 07:03:04 as for detecting more general cats Sep 25 07:03:07 that's harder, obviously Sep 25 07:03:08 :) Sep 25 07:03:10 dannyb: that was a fun project Sep 25 07:03:12 RyeBrye: is the unlock code the same for all devices? I assume not Sep 25 07:03:18 No, it's unique to each phone Sep 25 07:03:26 tbhe unlock code is Sep 25 07:03:27 1 Sep 25 07:03:27 2 Sep 25 07:03:29 3 Sep 25 07:03:30 4 Sep 25 07:03:34 DannyB: shh! Sep 25 07:03:36 =O Sep 25 07:03:39 that's the kind of combination some idiot would have on his luggage! Sep 25 07:03:43 crap /me goes to change luggage Sep 25 07:03:45 looooo Sep 25 07:03:48 All android phones have a backdoor Sep 25 07:03:51 ugh nerds Sep 25 07:03:54 the password is "joshua" - I have this on good authority Sep 25 07:04:04 would you like to play a game? Sep 25 07:04:04 robothelicopter Sep 25 07:04:05 RyeBrye: :-D Sep 25 07:04:15 summatusmentis: iirc its some mixture of your IMEI with something else, kinda like a hash Sep 25 07:04:24 (although, after seeing the gravity of the death star as a constant in the SDK, something like that wouldn't surprise me) Sep 25 07:04:38 umdk1d3: that makes sense Sep 25 07:05:09 the network unlock stuff is handled on the radio firmware side of things. we don't actually have anything to do with it. it's all the OEM Sep 25 07:05:28 RyeBrye: believe me, it was not that easy to figure out the gravity of the Death Star Sep 25 07:05:49 translation: We couldn't find an engineer who knew how the network lock worked Sep 25 07:05:53 DannyB: I think my favorite app is mcleron's toddler app Sep 25 07:05:58 swetland: is the gsm modem open? Sep 25 07:05:58 so we just went to lunch Sep 25 07:05:59 and forgot about it Sep 25 07:06:02 or can you say? Sep 25 07:06:03 romainguy - what does "the island" on there refer to for a gravitational constant? Sep 25 07:06:07 then we played andy's video games! Sep 25 07:06:10 summatusmentis: what do you think? ^^ Sep 25 07:06:13 DannyB: we went to "lunch 6" you might say... Sep 25 07:06:17 RyeBrye: rumor was it was from Lost iirc Sep 25 07:06:22 it's not a rumor Sep 25 07:06:22 no, I've never run into anyone shipping a fully open baseband platform Sep 25 07:06:29 the doc even says it's from Lost Sep 25 07:06:41 (it does?) Sep 25 07:06:45 fcc regulatory issues and modem manufacturer IP concerns pretty much kill that Sep 25 07:06:48 4 8 15 16 23 42 Sep 25 07:06:55 I told you there was a cabal :P Sep 25 07:06:56 the gravity value is just the numbers series from Lost Sep 25 07:07:02 you guys are not even real nerds Sep 25 07:07:04 ohhhhhhhh ic Sep 25 07:07:05 * RyeBrye is dumb Sep 25 07:07:10 rabelais: TINC Sep 25 07:07:14 umm i dont consder lost a nerd show tho :P Sep 25 07:07:15 swetland: I know OpenMoko had difficulty getting drivers for their modem Sep 25 07:07:20 hehe Sep 25 07:07:28 *talking* to the baseband is not hard Sep 25 07:07:33 summatusmentis: they have difficulties choosing a UI framework ^^ Sep 25 07:07:34 romainguy: i recognized it :) Sep 25 07:07:38 summatusmentis, I don't think openmoko's drivers aren't fully open either Sep 25 07:07:39 but getting firmware source is not something you're likely to see Sep 25 07:07:41 romainguy: its' ture Sep 25 07:07:55 * umdk1d3 zzz Sep 25 07:07:59 unless you're a licensee of the modem manufacturer. and I doubt you'll see anyone able to *ship* such sources Sep 25 07:08:00 swetland: but the driver is open? Sep 25 07:08:04 romainguy - you do know that g is not constant - and varies with altitude, right? I think it's funny that they have G to so many decimal places Sep 25 07:08:08 err "g" Sep 25 07:08:16 openmoko has an NDAd driver, iirc Sep 25 07:08:21 there are a couple layers Sep 25 07:08:28 RyeBrye: because really, it doesn't matter :) Sep 25 07:08:32 the drivers that handle the comms channels to/from the baseband are quite open Sep 25 07:08:34 RyeBrye: what are you talking about? g is 10 Sep 25 07:08:39 already available from git.android.com Sep 25 07:09:02 whee! Sep 25 07:09:03 there is a higher level module (the RIL) which uses a library that can be OEM-specific (and is in the case of the G1) Sep 25 07:09:29 swetland: "radio-independent layer"? Sep 25 07:09:30 the top side interface to the RIL is part of the android platform and the code that talks to / defines that protocol will also be open source Sep 25 07:09:42 swetland: gotta protect the valuable ip in the cpu over ppp implementation Sep 25 07:09:47 Will it be possible to write a voice changer app? so you can write an app to intercept the outgoing audio before it hits the outgoing phone thing and put filters on the audio? Sep 25 07:09:48 dannyb: nope Sep 25 07:09:53 it's ethernet frames Sep 25 07:09:56 no ppp here, thank god Sep 25 07:10:05 So you can call your friends and say "Do you like scary movies"? Sep 25 07:10:09 RyeBrye: I assume so? Sep 25 07:10:15 ryebrye: depends on the baseband firmware and hardware Sep 25 07:10:33 swetland, so it's that RIL module that's locked down? Sep 25 07:10:36 how long will it take for google phones to appear without a network lock? Sep 25 07:10:36 when can i just buy one outright Sep 25 07:10:36 and use it with any network i choose? Sep 25 07:10:36 I believe on 7201A (chipset in G1) that *can* be done, but I'm not sure if all the necessary interfaces are exposed at the moment Sep 25 07:11:04 * summatusmentis wants a Sprint android device :) Sep 25 07:11:10 there has been interest in things like vocoder apps, call quality testing, etc, etc, which would use such a feature. didn't make 1.0 Sep 25 07:11:36 everything that didn't make 1.0 can be blamed on swetland directly Sep 25 07:11:49 dannyb: please, only systems/kernel features ^^ Sep 25 07:12:07 when I heard that the bluetooth sdk piece was dropped in 1.0, I immediately realized all of the wacky stuff I wanted will probably not be in 1.0 either Sep 25 07:12:12 rebelais: the RIL library for G1 is a closed source library from htc. Sep 25 07:12:17 DannyB: I blame swetland for ListView Sep 25 07:12:24 BColumnListView Sep 25 07:12:25 swetland: does "ability to change every instance of a green android into a picture of swetland" count? Sep 25 07:12:28 swetland, I see...so that's the magic binary that we can't touch Sep 25 07:12:31 oh wait, different era Sep 25 07:12:41 RyeBrye: yeah it sucks, but I believe it's still a pretty good 1.0 :) Sep 25 07:12:44 swetland: kernel stuff huh? cool :) I wanna do kernel dev when I grow up Sep 25 07:12:48 :/ Sep 25 07:12:48 rabelais: not particulaarly magical Sep 25 07:12:50 http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyimages/1154.gif Sep 25 07:12:54 :-) Sep 25 07:12:58 summatusmentis: were you beaten as a child? Sep 25 07:12:59 s/grow up/get a job and stuff/ Sep 25 07:12:59 summatusmentis meant: swetland: kernel stuff huh? cool :) I wanna do kernel dev when I get a job and stuff Sep 25 07:13:05 i asked earlier.. when will the first unlocked android phone be available to market? Sep 25 07:13:07 DannyB: nope Sep 25 07:13:10 because you are about to get beaten as an adult Sep 25 07:13:14 oh, god Sep 25 07:13:18 swetland: do you have any comment to http://groups.google.de/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/82d7d62b67368217/16c44728ccecd8a7?hl=en#? the not working -qemu flag on 1.0 emulator? Sep 25 07:13:22 why is there a useless bot? Sep 25 07:13:31 and if i were to buy a T-mobile G1.. can i just offer them money to unlock it? even if its an outrageous price? Sep 25 07:13:34 and I expect somebody could (assuming they're using a device that allows swapping out the system software), explore the traffic in to and out of the ril and roll their own replacement, with sufficient effort Sep 25 07:13:43 I don't deal with the emulator Sep 25 07:13:54 DannyB: I did some kernel coding for my gsoc project, I enjoyed it Sep 25 07:14:01 I haven't even started the emulator in months Sep 25 07:14:06 but we release full source too it, and the guy who works on it does pay attention to bugs reported in it Sep 25 07:14:29 swetland, does that mean they'd get access to the raw gsm module to do nasty things like sniff gsm packets, forge sim ids...or is that all handled in the gsm firmware? Sep 25 07:14:50 the interface to the baseband for call control, etc is AT command based Sep 25 07:15:04 ah, like the toys that sparkfun sells Sep 25 07:15:06 if a $199 device could sniff GSM, I'd buy them by the truckload Sep 25 07:15:08 I do not believe they expose any interfaces that let you muck with things at that low level Sep 25 07:15:18 lame ;) Sep 25 07:15:37 what good is a google phone if you cant commit terrorist acts of espionage etc with it Sep 25 07:15:38 not my doing. talk to qualcomm and the fcc ^^ Sep 25 07:15:39 uh Sep 25 07:15:45 hehe Sep 25 07:15:49 usrobotics's at command interface mucked with all kinds of stuff Sep 25 07:15:56 you could flash the modem through at commands Sep 25 07:15:57 :) Sep 25 07:16:03 if you knew the right commands Sep 25 07:16:11 swetland, there was a blurb on wired.com today that said t-mobile talked to google to ensure voip won't happen on android...is this something that can truly be restricted given android's open source? Sep 25 07:16:16 DannyB: +++ Sep 25 07:16:18 * gdsx waits Sep 25 07:16:27 ATH0 Sep 25 07:16:29 +++, ATH0 Sep 25 07:16:54 NO CARRIER Sep 25 07:17:18 * RyeBrye does not miss the days of dial up Sep 25 07:17:21 donomo: I think I'm going to think of The Matrix whenever I see "NO CARRIER" Sep 25 07:17:32 rabelais: my guess.. is that due to androids partially open nature.. there will be people who cant help themselves.. and you will see unlocked t-mobile g1 phones.. you will see voip where its not supposed to be etc Sep 25 07:17:43 rabelais: there is nothing in the 1.0 software that specificly prevents VOIP Sep 25 07:17:47 RyeBrye: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1788161 Sep 25 07:17:54 swetland: well, reborting bugs/issues is no fun at all. often no comments or reactions from devs at all Sep 25 07:17:58 you can write apps that access the audio record/playback paths Sep 25 07:18:07 you can write apps that do tcp and udp networking Sep 25 07:18:16 2 + 2 = 4 ;) Sep 25 07:18:23 that's all I wanted to know... :) Sep 25 07:18:24 Oh - can you ssh into a 1.0 android phone? Sep 25 07:18:39 specifically the G1? Sep 25 07:18:48 all this is about to be opened up in october.. so if the answer is no.. the answer is yes anyway Sep 25 07:18:49 if you wrote an ssh server, sure Sep 25 07:19:16 the device does not ship with one built-in, but ssh server == sockets + crypto, two things that the device has Sep 25 07:19:29 i just want to see google make good on this code dump.. and i don't fully understand why delaying that until the absolute last possible moment is helpful Sep 25 07:19:31 and I see there's already a ssh terminal/client app on code.google.com Sep 25 07:19:45 How about getting to a shell on the linux running on the device? Sep 25 07:19:48 swetland: with more or less crypto, depending upon what linux distro you've got on there :o) Sep 25 07:20:07 swetland, from what you see, is this really going to be the hacker's dream phone mass-produced so it's nice and cheap (sorta like openmoko only with a huge corp backing)? Sep 25 07:20:13 snadge: you are welcome to continue to be skeptical until the source is released, but it will be released and then people will find something else to complain about ^^ Sep 25 07:20:46 im not saying that google wont make good on their promise.. thats just completely unimaginable Sep 25 07:21:25 but why not open it up before the release.. wouldn't public scrutiny before a 1.0 release.. be helpful to some extent.. ie, the many eyes principal Sep 25 07:21:34 if we could we would Sep 25 07:21:52 more 'we'.. so many of you! Sep 25 07:21:55 there are quite a few reasons, on several different fronts, that make release prior to ship not practical Sep 25 07:21:57 it just seems to go against one of the principal foundations of free software.. release early, release often ;) Sep 25 07:22:02 snadge: it's a HUGE project, open sourcing it is not just a matter of pushing a button :) Sep 25 07:22:11 sadly this is not something that I can go into detail on publicly Sep 25 07:22:16 snadge: sorry, but that was never a principle of free software Sep 25 07:22:26 snadge: emacs development releases used to be passworded Sep 25 07:22:29 for developers only Sep 25 07:22:35 where the number of developers was like 20 Sep 25 07:22:38 or 30 Sep 25 07:22:41 swetland: but thats what ppl expect from a open platform. Sep 25 07:22:42 in any case, once 1.0 hits things will be open and the bulk of development will be happening on external repositories Sep 25 07:22:58 part of the work involved is getting the necessary infrastructure in place to make that all work well Sep 25 07:23:09 DannyB: my brain is caving in.. this is emacs.. the editor of the father of free software itself.. Sep 25 07:23:29 external repos? :) like debian feeds, I like that Sep 25 07:23:37 snadge: he's rather annoying if you actually have to deal with him Sep 25 07:23:39 snadge: it was not the only FSF project to split over hiding development and blocking new features Sep 25 07:23:43 snadge: see GCC Sep 25 07:23:43 wouldn't releasing development code which is gpl'ed.. with a password restriction.. violate the gpl? Sep 25 07:23:45 etc Sep 25 07:23:49 no Sep 25 07:23:56 they never shipped binaries Sep 25 07:24:01 so they had n requirement to ship source Sep 25 07:24:10 praise the google gods...the days of reaching phone nirvana will soon be upon us Sep 25 07:24:20 now if only unlimited data plans were cheaper.... Sep 25 07:24:29 they couldn't prevent someone with a pre-release giving it to someone else, but they never did because they were elitist assholes Sep 25 07:24:29 :) Sep 25 07:24:47 Release Early Release Often was the mantra of the Linux Kernel Sep 25 07:24:48 and well Sep 25 07:25:03 DannyB: that reminds me of James Gosling telling me his side of the story about Emacs, RMS and himself :) Sep 25 07:25:04 it doesn't always work well Sep 25 07:25:21 romainguy: RMS is still stuck in the 80's, sadly Sep 25 07:25:26 so do we buy the G1, or hold out for the wimax model? Sep 25 07:25:35 it took us 10 years to convince them to let us write out GCC's IR Sep 25 07:25:40 i just look at it this way.. G1 is exciting, dont get me wrong Sep 25 07:25:41 they were afraid of commercial compilers Sep 25 07:25:48 dannyb: but the kernel is a success story, so prolly nothing wrong wih it. Sep 25 07:25:49 1. there are like 4 left Sep 25 07:25:53 DannyB: that he is, and he has interesting ways to contradict himself Sep 25 07:25:54 but really.. G2 is where it will all be at Sep 25 07:26:08 I'm personally not gonna use this crap until G7 Sep 25 07:26:18 snadge: with luck, G2 on Sprint! :) Sep 25 07:26:21 it's useless if it can't wire into my brain Sep 25 07:26:23 useless is ay Sep 25 07:26:27 what about G4.6? Sep 25 07:26:28 I've been using this crap for almost a year before it was shippable Sep 25 07:26:34 what good is a tool if it only does what you want it Sep 25 07:26:36 DannyB: I think you're on the same page as Sergei Sep 25 07:26:59 gdsx: sergei likes me, he mentioned it to our DC office director Sep 25 07:26:59 swetland: the good old days of battery drainage :)) Sep 25 07:27:03 you latecomers miss out on all the great "phone app crashes and then the modem firmware panics" parts of extremely early development ^^ Sep 25 07:27:10 swetland: or ANRs all over the board :)) Sep 25 07:27:21 fair enough.. i just think it sucks that the first google phone is network locked.. and theres still no source code.. so much for an OPEN phone that is meant to revolutionize the industry ;) Sep 25 07:27:22 i had been bugging someone to get their laptop keyboard (which was missing keys) fixed for months now Sep 25 07:27:36 and we were sitting in a meeting with sergei, just the three of us, and he kept pointing it out :) Sep 25 07:27:38 romain: fun is being in taiwan, paying $0.02/kb roaming the week we had the "gmail will sync FOREVER" bug ^^ Sep 25 07:28:12 snadge, given how anal the cell phone industry is....I'm actually shocked that they managed to convince t-mobile to agree to this Sep 25 07:28:18 snadge: you can't expect to pay a low price ($179) for a phone with that kind of hardware and not have the carrier try to recoup the cost :) Sep 25 07:28:31 fun is booting android on my flatmates tytn II .. and watching it crash anywhere between 1 and 5 minutes after starting it Sep 25 07:28:32 the source code will be released, as promised Sep 25 07:28:37 rabelais: yeah, having been through this all before (danger hiptop/sidekick), I think we've come a long way Sep 25 07:28:50 romainguy: i want the option to pay $1000 for the phone Sep 25 07:28:55 any chance bluetooth keyboards will work with it? Sep 25 07:28:55 I certainly hope for even more open stuff in the future, but it's off to a good start Sep 25 07:28:56 snadge: eBay Sep 25 07:29:08 im not interested in subsidised contract crap ;) Sep 25 07:29:15 you know - for the guy who doesn't want to flip out his phone but woudl rather carry around a full-sized keyboard in his back pocket? ;) Sep 25 07:29:21 err flip out his keyboard Sep 25 07:29:24 swetland, indeed...I totally agree...and I'm glad...because once they let the genie out of the bottle....it's game over and we win Sep 25 07:29:54 'night all Sep 25 07:29:58 rabelais: I think it'll take a little more than that, but my hope is that consumers will pick up on openness (especially for app dev/distro) and start demanding it Sep 25 07:30:01 and it'll snowball Sep 25 07:30:17 and if as a side-effect, *other* mobile platforms open up more, awesome, we still win Sep 25 07:30:27 why isnt htc selling them directly? .. damn exclusivity, its anti competitive.. if it enables something to come to market.. fine.. but i cant help but feel disappointed anyway Sep 25 07:30:40 swetland, agreed, I think i'll happen rapidly though...I can really easily see voip being the killer app for this platform Sep 25 07:30:49 yeah Sep 25 07:30:57 snadge: I'm sure that over time you'll see non-subsidized, direct sale stuff from various vendors Sep 25 07:31:06 rabelais: you need reasonable data plans/coverage before vopi works Sep 25 07:31:08 voip* Sep 25 07:31:19 carriers like exclusivity for first ship of new whatever. it is their way. it doesn't last forever Sep 25 07:31:29 swetland: yeah i want to know whos going to be first.. everybody knows the Dream is the first G1 phone.. but to me, of far more significance is the first uncrippled google phone Sep 25 07:31:50 crippled how? Sep 25 07:32:02 like... one with a god damned headphone jack or some kind of internal storage? Sep 25 07:32:09 can't speak to unannounced products. but with luck there will be quite a few choices over the next year or so as more devices ship Sep 25 07:32:10 summatusmentis, there's some moderately priced stuff out there for unlimited data plans ($40-50) and 3G coverage isn't bad in most sizable urban/suburban areas Sep 25 07:32:10 ok, first non network locked android phone Sep 25 07:32:39 RyeBrye: the whole thing about the lack of headphone jack is really blowing out of proportion Sep 25 07:32:42 swetland, wimax? yes? please? Sep 25 07:32:50 rabelais: yeh, I'm currently on sprint sero :) Sep 25 07:32:52 I've been using a G1 for months with several regular sets of headphones Sep 25 07:32:54 but no EVDO where I live Sep 25 07:33:04 cost me a few bucks to buy an adapter Sep 25 07:33:07 works great Sep 25 07:33:09 ok, good night for real Sep 25 07:33:21 romainguy - you're right - since the fact that it has no internal storage makes it kind of limited as a music playing device :P Sep 25 07:33:27 why? Sep 25 07:33:36 I have an 8GB memory card in it Sep 25 07:33:40 which makes it on par with my iPhone Sep 25 07:33:53 indeed, that sd card was a brilliant decision Sep 25 07:33:59 it's actually less limited since I can swap out my memory cards and carry more data Sep 25 07:34:00 Yes. SD = good Sep 25 07:34:08 I remember Cedric2 saying he's used a 16GB Sep 25 07:34:18 Ok- but where do your apps reside when you are swapping memory cards around? Sep 25 07:34:38 apps are on the internal storage Sep 25 07:34:46 the 256 megs or whatever it is? Sep 25 07:34:50 if I talk about unannounced products/features, they shoot me Sep 25 07:34:56 then I can't answer questions Sep 25 07:35:06 swetland, understood, I apologize Sep 25 07:35:26 s'ok. you can ask whatever you like, just be aware that there are classes of questions I'm not going to answer Sep 25 07:35:36 this isn't an official google channel... you can shoot your mouth off about whatever - since it's not like we're checking what your saying against some kind of cryptographic hash to prove you are an official google person Sep 25 07:35:38 swetland, but I'll take your omission as a yes (because I really want to believe it) :P Sep 25 07:35:53 any village idiot could come in here and claim to work for google and spit out all kinds of funny stuff Sep 25 07:36:17 ;) Sep 25 07:36:23 RyeBrye, except his cloak shows otherwise Sep 25 07:36:31 :) Sep 25 07:37:20 Is there no list of announced android phones? the G1 is the only one that has been announced? Sep 25 07:37:21 swetland, question regarding wifi roaming... Sep 25 07:37:33 I don't even know what wifi roaming means ^^ Sep 25 07:37:44 sorry, let me explain the scenario Sep 25 07:37:46 WDS? :) Sep 25 07:37:59 RyeBrye: there _is_ a list of announced android phones; it has one entry in it currently Sep 25 07:38:12 say like you are on a large uni campus (like the one 10 minutes south west of you) Sep 25 07:38:13 gdsx - that's fiar Sep 25 07:38:21 err fair Sep 25 07:38:24 I really don't know much about the wifi support. I don't actually use it myself. Sep 25 07:38:30 with many wireless networks, all with the same ESSID, but they have different subnets Sep 25 07:38:50 rabelais: I think the thing to ask is "how would this behave with a laptop?" Sep 25 07:38:54 That sounds like a crazy wireless network Sep 25 07:39:05 it may sound crazy....but it's a HUGE problem Sep 25 07:39:06 I think that works (at least I expect people would bitch if it didn't since I believe that's how our wifi network at google looks) Sep 25 07:39:17 every nokia wifi phone I've had gets stuck on there Sep 25 07:39:20 as does the iphone Sep 25 07:39:35 not sure if transactions in-progress will survive a handoff between different subnets Sep 25 07:39:46 swetland: they won't, undoubtedly Sep 25 07:39:50 swetland, I certainly don't mind if transactions die (I would expect them to) Sep 25 07:39:53 swetland: there's no way you can get a response Sep 25 07:40:03 I just don't want my phone to freeze up and force a reboot just to get a new IP Sep 25 07:40:06 like if you're actively downloading something, I think when you reconfigure to the new AP it'll die, but the browser, sync service, download manager, whatever should then retry Sep 25 07:40:19 rabelais: I would consider that behaviour to be a bug Sep 25 07:40:29 swetland, no kidding...tell that to nokia or apple Sep 25 07:40:41 it's been around for years... Sep 25 07:40:44 thankfully I do not work in support for nokia or apple Sep 25 07:41:10 I just hope G1 doesn't suffer from the same issue Sep 25 07:41:37 rabelais: I'm fairly confident it doesn't Sep 25 07:41:48 I sure hope not :) Sep 25 07:42:28 I hope one of you guys decides to come test it out on the campus network to be sure...I'd even give you guys a tour of how my phones die Sep 25 07:42:40 :P Sep 25 07:43:16 and all I'd ask in return is dinner at the googleplex (and maybe a G1...if that's not pushing it)...hehe Sep 25 07:43:40 rabelais: worst case, you turn wifi off, you turn wifi back on, you're done Sep 25 07:44:01 gdsx, that sounds most reasonable...particularly since I'd be able to script it Sep 25 07:44:44 rabelais: but I mean... it's just wpa_supplicant and friends under the hood, so I'm pretty sure it Just Works Sep 25 07:44:45 my nokia E51 literally freezes if I try to cycle the wifi when it's on the wrong subnet Sep 25 07:45:21 gdsx, really? ok...I believe you if that's the case Sep 25 07:47:32 cause that's the same thing I do to my laptop....haha Sep 25 07:47:32 you were right from the start :P Sep 25 07:47:33 ahh...it's almost too good to be true... Sep 25 07:48:01 gdsx, swetland thank you very much for your time tonight....I really appreciate it Sep 25 07:48:21 rabelais: "time"? I'm just hanging out Sep 25 07:48:38 this is one of many channels I lurk in Sep 25 07:49:04 still...you were quite patient with me Sep 25 07:49:26 well, not a problem Sep 25 07:49:40 and I'm really excited about this platform now...it's got all the little knobs and widgets that I've been dreaming about Sep 25 07:50:44 anyhow...night night all...and thanks....back to studying for me Sep 25 08:05:47 hmm, another thing, is there a way to install an apk onto the emu without adb? i can download it via the browser, but the system tells me the settings doesnt permit install Sep 25 08:05:54 where is this setting (in emu) Sep 25 08:07:41 tric: you're using the 1.0 SDK? Sep 25 08:08:24 tric: if so, should just be Settings->Applications->Unknown sources Sep 25 08:16:31 im using 1.0, but where are those settings located? i get "unsupported action" when using menu key -> settings Sep 25 08:18:01 sec; looking Sep 25 08:19:20 tric: well, there's likely some equivalent adb incantation that I don't know. I'll ask folks about the whole settings situation tomorrow Sep 25 08:19:29 well... today :o) Sep 25 08:23:33 thx Sep 25 08:23:52 seems like thats something that is different in sdk compared to g1 Sep 25 08:27:00 the default search is cool Sep 25 08:27:07 just now noticed Sep 25 08:38:04 typical symbian has categories for the phone book...so some names are not shown Sep 25 08:38:10 does android have this? Sep 25 08:38:28 yeah.. groups Sep 25 08:38:48 ...does that mean that gmail has this currently as well? Sep 25 08:39:05 indeed it does Sep 25 08:39:09 WildCaterpillar: you can play with the dialer in the emulator Sep 25 08:39:39 well, i *just* purchased a g1 from tmobile Sep 25 08:39:45 i'm searching for a demo showing gmail, calendar etc., Sep 25 08:39:50 is this available somewhere? Sep 25 08:39:59 until i can have multiple gmail accounts, i decided to create a new gmail account Sep 25 08:40:07 muthu: check through the videos by "android developers" on youtube Sep 25 08:40:18 right, how bout code? Sep 25 08:40:29 so we can put in like "mail" button in our app.. Sep 25 08:40:57 Are there some users that use OSX and sync the Gmail Apps (cal, adressbook) with iCal/Adressbook ? If there are some how do you handle it and does it work propberly? Sep 25 08:41:06 muthu: oh; not sure Sep 25 08:41:14 but there are things missing in the phone book/contacts, you cannot define your own contact info, like sip address Sep 25 08:41:35 the gsuite demo is missing Sep 25 08:41:37 and the info i us only, like adding a number in 123-123-12345 format. Sep 25 08:42:22 does the messaging app work? Sep 25 08:43:17 muthu: I'm not too familiar with the SDK/docs from a development perspective Sep 25 08:43:41 the messaging app in emulator Sep 25 08:43:47 says open keyboard to type message Sep 25 08:44:02 there are aspects about the emulator which seem unintuitive...ex: times when i'd think I should be able to press "MENU" i cannot Sep 25 08:44:05 I think there's a key you hit or something Sep 25 08:44:22 muthu: again, I'm not too familiar with it Sep 25 08:44:27 ok Sep 25 08:44:30 (well, i can, but it doesn't take me to the menu.....i guess that is a misunderstanding on my part) Sep 25 08:44:56 (...when no menu displays, it literally means there is no menu) Sep 25 08:45:10 muthu: Just rotate the device, the applciation assumes it is equivalent to opening the keyboard Sep 25 08:45:22 oh let me try Sep 25 08:45:56 tomgibara, works.. thx Sep 25 08:46:09 how do you rotate it? I've seen someone do it, but didn't see how Sep 25 08:46:14 tomgibara: are you rotating the emulator? Sep 25 08:46:18 ctlr f12 Sep 25 08:46:25 on linux Sep 25 08:46:47 WildCaterpillar: yes Sep 25 08:47:58 is there a way to run multiple emulators so that the phones are on the same "cell network" Sep 25 08:49:33 yeah, you can.. but need to point to separate data directories Sep 25 08:49:44 its a bit of hassle Sep 25 08:50:47 sounds straightforward though (unless you aren't mentioning all the details) Sep 25 08:50:56 i want to try having one phone call the other Sep 25 08:51:06 WildCaterpillar, use ddms Sep 25 08:51:26 ddms will let you emulate sms/call etc., Sep 25 08:51:40 btw, i couldn't find how to make a contact belong to a particular group....does the emulator not allow this? Sep 25 08:54:41 it was shown in the vidoes Sep 25 08:54:50 guess emu doesn't let you do it Sep 25 08:55:12 woohoo...i cant wait to have my phone...hopefully delivered on oct 22! Sep 25 08:55:47 total price: $213.33 Sep 25 08:56:04 cool Sep 25 08:56:09 not sure about non us guys Sep 25 08:58:53 did anyone resolve the: emulator: warning: opening audio output failed Sep 25 08:59:09 no Sep 25 08:59:18 ignoring it Sep 25 09:01:36 so the version of android to be included on the first phones....has this been frozen already...or should we expect an updated version Sep 25 09:04:56 wildcaterpillar: got the same audio issue, aswell as -audio isnt really working. at least on linux. i guess its the stupid linux audio thing with oss blocking and such Sep 25 09:05:23 the warning happens in linux Sep 25 09:08:22 hmm...i'm trying to understand how the caller will experience a "Send Directly To Voicemail" option. is ddms not the proper tool then? Sep 25 09:10:14 why, you send call from ddms Sep 25 09:10:52 yes, but that doesn't tell me how a caller experiences it Sep 25 09:11:07 ddms just seems to disconnect after receiving the voicemail flag Sep 25 09:11:19 yea, lot of stuff still a mystery Sep 25 09:11:25 i want to know how many rings the caller will hear Sep 25 09:11:42 no rings Sep 25 09:11:50 if direct to voicemail.. it goes straight Sep 25 09:12:02 well it could go direct to voicemail but simulate a real call Sep 25 09:12:14 that way the caller doesn't KNOW that they are "direct to voicemail" Sep 25 09:12:51 ...otherwise it seems self-defeating. Sep 25 09:14:16 hmm Sep 25 09:14:39 that has always annoyed me...similiar to pressing "Ignore" on an incoming call Sep 25 09:14:48 i don't want the person to know that i pressed "ignore" Sep 25 09:15:00 that's why it goes direct Sep 25 09:15:02 so the proper behavior should be that the call continues in the background, until voicemail activates Sep 25 09:15:17 ...it depends on when you press ignore Sep 25 09:15:32 you could press it on the second ring.... Sep 25 09:15:33 ha! Sep 25 09:15:40 lol.. Sep 25 09:15:50 fairly common Sep 25 09:15:55 btw, i know ppl already talked about it, but why is the digital clock in emu always wrong, but analog clock show the correct time? Sep 25 09:15:59 the caller will find out Sep 25 09:16:06 since it always goes to voicemail Sep 25 09:16:11 that you are ignoring the caller ;) Sep 25 09:16:11 you hear your phone ring...oh that person.../me presses ignore. Sep 25 09:16:15 know they know Sep 25 09:16:22 now they know...very undesirable Sep 25 09:16:33 so the proper behavior should be to "bg" the phone call Sep 25 09:16:54 do you know, there's this company which makes tons of money doing this? Sep 25 09:16:59 ...and i want the same thing with "direct to voicemail"...that way the user just believes i didn't pick up...not that they get voicemail on the 0th ring everytime Sep 25 09:17:01 forgot the name Sep 25 09:17:15 yeah i think i heard about this company too Sep 25 09:17:34 now i'm starting to believe software is about people Sep 25 09:17:38 not technology Sep 25 09:18:56 anyone see this: http://www.grandcentral.com/ Sep 25 09:19:00 interesting. Sep 25 09:19:32 oh google company Sep 25 09:19:55 wonder what they have planned (besides what is obviously on the site) Sep 25 09:20:49 neat idea Sep 25 09:20:58 it like your ssn Sep 25 09:21:04 vsn Sep 25 09:21:26 anyone have an invite? Sep 25 09:21:36 just registered Sep 25 09:21:44 it will take years to come to india Sep 25 09:25:56 http://www.theunwired.net/?item=videoview-hands-on-with-the-htc-touch-hd-windows-mobile-smartphone <- Oh man I like this hardware :-) Sep 25 09:27:43 nice processor Sep 25 09:28:04 well feature wise it has everything you need :-) Sep 25 09:28:14 (talking about the hardware) Sep 25 09:29:15 same button interface as the G1 Sep 25 09:29:30 yeah just a nicer finish Sep 25 09:29:56 including 2 cameras, 3,5 mm jack and all the other things we know from the G1 Sep 25 09:30:12 ok no compass Sep 25 09:30:21 But thats not really important for me :-) Sep 25 09:30:45 it has 2 cameras? Sep 25 09:30:50 yeah Sep 25 09:30:56 in the back a 5 MP cam Sep 25 09:31:02 wow Sep 25 09:31:05 and in the front a small VGA cam Sep 25 09:31:15 http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=64796 Sep 25 09:31:33 800*480 resolution ;) Sep 25 09:32:16 thats pretty hot Sep 25 09:32:20 anno^da_: How much does it cost? Sep 25 09:32:56 tomgibara: Yeah thats the question. I assume it to be more expensice than the G1. But I dont really know havent seen pricing. Sep 25 09:34:16 This device + Android would have been the real marketing bang. But yeah obviously HTC is taking not the biggest risk with G1. Sep 25 09:34:56 afaict price not announced - I ask, because I have a suspicion that t-mobile has been cheap - offering relatively inexpensive hardware with a pricey data plan Sep 25 09:36:13 unfortunately I know nothing about the economics of phone manufacturing, so I won't know one way or another Sep 25 09:36:28 Yeah thats true. Sep 25 09:36:51 ...so are you guys waiting for another phone or going with G1? Sep 25 09:36:58 I'm just looking at it from the marketing perspective. From the reation of the consumers to a device. Sep 25 09:37:28 WildCaterpillar: Well I'm buying the G1 for testing but not more. It lacks the 3.5 mm jack which is a real pain for me. Sep 25 09:37:53 WildCaterpillar: I don't think I can, I want to test the applications I've written asap Sep 25 09:38:03 And I really hope that there will be some UI design updates and more polished hardware in the future. Sep 25 09:38:36 * WildCaterpillar starts wondering if i bought it too soon, impulse buy Sep 25 09:38:55 (looking at the hands on video of the Touch HD and WiMo is sooo cruel for touch usage *g) Sep 25 09:39:02 anno^da_: UI updates will be tricky to effect without breaking existing apps Sep 25 09:39:44 tomgibara: Yeah that's a big problem. I just don't like the UI style but ok that are personal preferences Sep 25 09:39:44 i suppose the nice thing is that it is only 179...i can always get another phone if something better is out there...and android will still be there Sep 25 09:40:00 Well with a 2 years contract. Sep 25 09:40:21 Works out to at least $1500 over 2 years Sep 25 09:40:42 (Ok I have to admit that I'm using my phones without contract here all the time so I'm not the best reference for that :D) Sep 25 09:43:34 but i don't have to switch carriers...just a new phone Sep 25 09:43:53 yeah sure. You're in the US right ? Sep 25 09:43:58 yeah Sep 25 09:44:06 unlocked phone :) Sep 25 09:44:26 but the $1500 is really not much more than i pay now Sep 25 09:44:37 which is approx $60/month for no data Sep 25 09:45:00 i took the tmobile $25 data plan Sep 25 09:45:12 so it will be about $600 more in two years than what i would already be paying Sep 25 09:45:14 not too bad Sep 25 09:45:28 Does $60 include lots of free minutes? Sep 25 09:45:33 yeah Sep 25 09:45:43 with VoIP, i will cut that eventually Sep 25 09:46:31 I'm not sure that Android as it stands will be up to providing VoIP Sep 25 09:46:46 Though it seems a good bet for the future Sep 25 09:46:58 Well I think that there will be apps allowing VOIP through WIFI connection. Sep 25 09:47:11 But not over 3G network. Sep 25 09:47:12 VoIP takes lots of processing power Sep 25 09:47:17 yeah true Sep 25 09:47:32 An interpreted VM won't cut it (I think - personal hunch) Sep 25 09:47:35 and so battey the battery gets drained down Sep 25 09:48:36 I'm curious about the fact how much will be really open sourced and if there will be some projects offering their own versions of Android. Sep 25 09:48:50 They might implement the codecs in C libraries and then expose them to the java apps... Sep 25 09:49:01 interesting Sep 25 09:49:10 It's hard to know what their priorities are Sep 25 09:49:37 Perhaps with some new messenger stuff in it. I'd really like to see "libpuprle" lib included offering all the messenger protocols that exist right now. :-) Sep 25 09:50:15 anno^da_: I would expect that most of the activity will be involved in porting it to other devices Sep 25 09:51:40 Well yeah but that's something I dont know. For me this is useless work. Fighting to get it work on other devices. Well I dont know. Sep 25 09:52:19 It takes so much time and in the end it is often not working propberly. Sep 25 09:52:55 (just from my consumer view after using a lot of Palm devices with Linux and Openmoko on different phones) Sep 25 09:53:52 anno^da_: I was thinking of devices other than desktop phones, for example, you could try to build a SIP based soft-phone out of it or something. Sep 25 09:53:59 They are working but well a lot of things dont really work the right way. For geeks this is ok and it is fun to play with it but for the normal consumer it is kind of useless. Sep 25 09:54:21 Ok you mean building new hardware from the ground using Android as software. Sep 25 09:55:05 That's something that is really interesting that is true. Sep 25 09:55:33 I'd like to see Android on the Neo Freerunner (Openmoko hardware) on the VGA screen :D Sep 25 09:56:27 Open hardware, no contracts with the carrieres and a stable OS. (which Openmoko right now isnt) Yeah I'd like to see that. Sep 25 09:56:39 shouldn't be hard to port Sep 25 09:56:49 I meant running android, somewhat like the emulator, but as a real soft phone Sep 25 09:57:03 performance may be a stretch with that cpu and a vga display, unless there's some decent 2d hw accel for compositing Sep 25 09:58:42 swetland: Yeah it is a problem for Openmoko as well at the moment. :-) There are some hardware design failures. But I cant tell you much more about it. Some problems with the mentioned 2d hw acc. Sep 25 10:00:42 But the combination of open hardware with Android could be interesting in the future. Sep 25 10:01:33 yeah, I'd love to see open/unlocked devices available that have full platform support Sep 25 10:02:52 Yeah I mean I dont understand much about low level stuff but if you have all the information about the hardware (which you have for the Neo Freerunner for example) it shouldnt be that hard to port Android. Right? Sep 25 10:03:07 nope Sep 25 10:03:30 you need a 2.6.25 kernel that supports your hardware and has the android-specific drivers Sep 25 10:03:55 somebody will need to write a ril library that talks to the radio module on the device (for telephony and data call control) Sep 25 10:04:23 and a little bit of work will have to be done to support v4 instruction set Sep 25 10:04:37 since right now the platform (in a couple places) assumes v5t or later Sep 25 10:06:09 So is it pretty difficult compared to porting it to other unknown devices? (I'm a noob in low level stuff so dont kill me for that :D) Sep 25 10:06:51 not particularly. always easier if you have docs for the hw you're targeting and/or there's already kernel support in there Sep 25 10:07:30 ok thx. Sep 25 11:12:11 Have you read that: http://funambol.com/news/pressrelease_2008.9.24.php Sep 25 11:12:34 Sounds great. So I'm not stuck with the Google Apps :-) Sep 25 11:12:47 for synching. Sep 25 11:14:32 is it available? Sep 25 11:15:53 well I'm reading through it right now Sep 25 11:16:10 Funambol Android Client will be available after G1 phones ship and the Android Market is open for third party apps. Sep 25 11:16:44 https://core.forge.funambol.org/source/browse/core/trunk/funambol/clients/android/ Sep 25 11:17:32 gr8 Sep 25 11:19:08 I havent much experience with the Funambol servers but sharing my private data with google is not my thing so I will test this as an alternative. Sep 25 11:30:24 the only problem I see is with the calendar app on the G1 Sep 25 11:30:45 It is so much tight to the Gmail services :/ Sep 25 11:33:28 you need a gmail account for g1 Sep 25 11:35:32 Sep 25 11:35:32 Sep 25 11:35:32 Sep 25 11:35:32 Sep 25 11:35:32 Sep 25 11:35:36 what's wrong with that? Sep 25 11:35:51 the activity is not found? Sep 25 11:36:53 muthu, had a bug like that myself yesterday but the problem wasnt anywhere near the intentfilter Sep 25 11:37:06 what's the problem? Sep 25 11:37:50 am trying to start activity by action and type.. Sep 25 11:38:42 android.content.ActivityNotFoundException: No Activity found to handle Intent { action=android.intent.action.GET_CONTENT type=vnd.android.cursor.dir/vnd.mobeegal.results (has extras) } Sep 25 11:39:03 if you can't find anything wrong with the intent, then check for some place in your code where "vnd.mobeegal.results" is something else like "vnd.google.results" or so, or check for an error in onCreate() of the activity Sep 25 11:39:17 ok Sep 25 11:39:27 some of these intent bugs are hard to find as they aren't checked by eclipse Sep 25 11:39:28 this activity also has other intent filters.. Sep 25 11:39:37 Hello Sep 25 11:39:42 main and launcher Sep 25 11:39:49 Do anyone have some information about installating Android on the HTC Diamond? Sep 25 11:40:09 muthu, just some advice, cant help you much further Sep 25 11:40:14 thx Sep 25 11:43:09 you are right.. Sep 25 11:43:14 nothing wrong with intent Sep 25 11:43:27 if the activity fails.. it just throws that dumbass exception Sep 25 11:43:41 in onCreate()? Sep 25 11:43:49 yeah Sep 25 11:44:08 exception is misleading Sep 25 11:44:12 not surprising though.. Sep 25 11:44:20 hmm you too, I wonder why that is? maybe should file a bug report... Sep 25 11:44:32 yup Sep 25 11:45:05 pjv.. thx Sep 25 11:45:23 pair programming helps ;) Sep 25 11:45:38 I don't think it's a bug personally. Sep 25 11:46:01 its a java quirk Sep 25 11:46:18 It's not a quirk of java, it's a property of the APIs Sep 25 11:46:26 It probably needs to work that way, otherwise activities have no way of signaling that they don't want to handle the intent after-all Sep 25 11:46:50 its more like an api design bug Sep 25 11:46:58 Not everything can be expressed declaratively in the IntentFilter. Sep 25 11:46:59 the exception coulda been better named Sep 25 11:47:16 No, it's correct in that context Sep 25 11:47:43 The intent filter flagged it as a possible, and the activity said "actually no" Sep 25 11:48:03 That's certainly one way of interpreting the process Sep 25 11:48:12 tomgibara, it isnt quite Sep 25 11:48:19 It may not be what's intended in which case, yes, it's a bug Sep 25 11:48:45 pjv: Why not? Sep 25 11:49:01 there was a (runtime?) exception in onCreate() that wasnt thrown further up, thats not saying "no" by any java policy, it's throwing an excpetion Sep 25 11:50:07 What I'm saying is that in the absence of another way in the API for the activity to communicate it doesn't want to handle the intent, the API designers *may* have felt it was a good compromise to elide this difference Sep 25 11:50:44 ie. An activity that fails to handle an intent means that "No Activity found to handle Intent" Sep 25 11:51:01 ok here's something I didn't know, the way to refuse an intent is by throwing a RuntimeExcpetion? Sep 25 11:51:13 nope.. its like ActivityFailed at handling the event Sep 25 11:51:20 It may be a significant distinction to the implementer, but not the consumer. Sep 25 11:51:34 that would be very bad design, they should have allowed like a "CannotHandleIntentException" only for it Sep 25 11:52:09 pjv: Yes, that's certainly one way of doing it, perhaps even the Java idiomatic way Sep 25 11:52:57 But even if that was added to 1.1+ I don't think it would necessarily change the returned exception to the client Sep 25 11:53:51 In principle, the framework could try a number of activities until it found one that worked. Sep 25 11:54:38 These are all academic questions because I don't think the intended design is communicated in the docs. Sep 25 11:55:48 activity not found is not the same thing as saying activity found and not working Sep 25 11:56:00 why are we even debating a bug that will make several people loose hours of their time and will make them come complain in this very chatroom? ;-) Sep 25 11:56:11 yeah Sep 25 11:56:18 ok.. time to go home Sep 25 11:56:30 meet you at the other side! Sep 25 11:57:55 pjv: I agree it's a "gotcha" - I've fallen for it too Sep 25 12:08:45 http://www.google.com/reader/view/?tab=my#stream/feed%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.engadget.com%2Fweblogsinc%2Fengadget Sep 25 12:08:54 good news for the 1GB Cap Haters Sep 25 12:10:15 well, but the reader url doesnt work Sep 25 12:10:54 true. Sep 25 12:10:56 one sec Sep 25 12:11:01 http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/24/t-mobile-kills-the-1gb-data-cap-takes-a-more-friendly-approach/ Sep 25 12:11:07 and theres this Sep 25 12:11:07 http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/24/t-mobile-g1-impressions-what-we-love-what-we-dont/ Sep 25 12:21:53 the browser video is pretty cool Sep 25 12:22:00 with the contact image editing. Sep 25 12:38:14 Anyone know if Android will be available to HTC Diamond? Sep 25 12:44:55 hello to all Sep 25 12:45:00 I've a question Sep 25 12:45:15 is there a terminal in android? Sep 25 12:45:41 can I do wardriving with a G1? Sep 25 12:45:49 what is the wifi card model? Sep 25 12:47:41 if I want, can I change os in openmoko in my G1? Sep 25 12:55:11 I would suggest to stay with the Neo Freerunner + Openmoko to get all you want Sep 25 12:55:25 G1 is not supported at the moment by Openmoko. Sep 25 12:55:27 lol Sep 25 12:55:36 people have some crazy questions up in here. Sep 25 12:55:40 :-) Sep 25 12:55:59 Well geek stuff. Join the Openmoko channel and you will hear such needs all the time. Sep 25 12:56:17 yeah, but i mean its like people dont read stuff either. Sep 25 12:56:23 true :-) Sep 25 12:56:25 ok Sep 25 12:56:27 wait Sep 25 12:56:29 if they did they would know as much as everyone else. Sep 25 12:56:49 is there a terminal in android? is this a good question? Sep 25 12:57:05 There isnt one at the moment. Sep 25 12:57:09 I don't think theres one in the sdk Sep 25 12:57:11 but thats not android. Sep 25 12:57:27 ah Sep 25 12:57:37 is there a way to try android? Sep 25 12:57:41 the SDK Sep 25 12:57:45 but not actual android. Sep 25 12:57:52 android is not released yet. Sep 25 12:57:59 ok Sep 25 12:58:33 so you don't know if in the final release there will a terminal Sep 25 12:58:38 Well it is nearly the actual Android system but it is running on an emulator in the SDK. Sep 25 12:58:45 I doubt there will be a terminal in it personally. Sep 25 12:58:48 It wont have one. Sep 25 12:59:22 Dougie187: argh it would be very good Sep 25 12:59:34 You might be able to write it, but i dont know if the api currently has all the features you would need for one. Sep 25 13:00:06 so I haven't the possibility to use my linux box on my phone Sep 25 13:00:31 you mean like ssh into your linux box? Sep 25 13:00:45 from your phone? Sep 25 13:01:06 Dougie187: I want to do everything with my phone Sep 25 13:01:17 what do you mean by everything? Sep 25 13:01:40 its probably not a good idea to use it to spread condiments on your cheeseburgers.. Sep 25 13:02:09 sorrty Sep 25 13:02:33 what mean spread? I don't know this verb Sep 25 13:03:02 ok Sep 25 13:03:06 aleskandro: To get real access over mostly everything use Openmoko Sep 25 13:03:26 "process or result of distributing or extending over a wide expanse of space" Sep 25 13:03:26 Android is definetly not what you are searching for. Sep 25 13:03:34 At least not yet anno^da_ Sep 25 13:03:37 it might be in the future. Sep 25 13:03:50 anno^da_: in fact I do the question about the os chang on g1 Sep 25 13:04:02 Dougie187: Well if he has the knowledge he can use it right now. Sep 25 13:04:12 because the neo freerunner is not very good as an htc G1 Sep 25 13:04:36 aleskandro: putting openmoko on the G1 is a better question for the Openmoko people then us. Sep 25 13:04:47 ok Sep 25 13:04:48 Well since there is no real G1 hardware available at the moment there wont be someone porting OM to the G1 Sep 25 13:04:50 why do you want a g1, you could port openmoko to a touch pro or whatever arm phone aswell. Sep 25 13:04:57 but keep in mind, we won't have any idea yet until the phone comes out. Sep 25 13:05:21 mh Sep 25 13:06:08 and I can do wardriving with this phone? Sep 25 13:06:31 i don't think there are any apps out there that help you do wardriving at the moment. Sep 25 13:06:39 but who knows. Sep 25 13:06:46 maybe someone else knows how to do it. Sep 25 13:06:48 so I can't install aircrack for example Sep 25 13:06:56 no? Sep 25 13:07:02 you would have to write an app. Sep 25 13:07:08 or android-aircrack Sep 25 13:07:39 but afaik that doesn't exist right now. Sep 25 13:07:57 good morning yakischloba Sep 25 13:08:06 you see that tmobile took back the 1gb cap? Sep 25 13:08:08 uhg good morning Sep 25 13:08:10 oh really? Sep 25 13:08:20 that makes the morning a bit better :) Sep 25 13:08:21 yeah one sec. Sep 25 13:08:45 and theres a 16gb micro SDHC card coming out Sep 25 13:08:58 http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/24/t-mobile-kills-the-1gb-data-cap-takes-a-more-friendly-approach/ Sep 25 13:09:39 in what language i can write program for android os? Sep 25 13:09:44 hmm Sep 25 13:09:53 aleskandro: java Sep 25 13:10:00 bleah Sep 25 13:10:03 aleskandro: code.google.com/android Sep 25 13:10:07 Dougie187: only java? Sep 25 13:10:11 aleskandro: yes Sep 25 13:10:19 at the same time they don't seem to make any guarantee. it might be a situation like verizon...they claim 'unlimited' but just cut people off arbitrarily Sep 25 13:10:22 aleskandro: unless you want to write a c api for the java api Sep 25 13:10:55 yakischloba: true. it does seem like they will arbitrarily cut people off too from what they say. but they say its based on "overuse" of the system. Sep 25 13:11:06 but again, since that is vague it is arbitrary Sep 25 13:11:36 yeah. we'll see what happens. they'll certainly try to pull some shit at least a couple times ;) Sep 25 13:11:42 brb gotta change outa my bike clothes.. Sep 25 13:11:45 ok Sep 25 13:14:00 ahh thats better. Sep 25 13:15:04 but its good news that its not a hard cap. Sep 25 13:15:10 yeah Sep 25 13:15:13 better for casual users. Sep 25 13:15:15 1gb was a little crazy Sep 25 13:15:15 and tethering. Sep 25 13:15:16 heh Sep 25 13:15:32 im really happy they don't care about tethering. Sep 25 13:15:54 don't they? Sep 25 13:16:00 it was in that post yesterday Sep 25 13:16:02 question: if i want an extended listener to show a toast widget, how do i create a context for it? Sep 25 13:16:11 oh, nice Sep 25 13:16:15 oh yeah, the colors of the g1 are white, black, and brown. Sep 25 13:16:32 brown?...i saw the white and black but not that Sep 25 13:16:37 like....wood grain or what? Sep 25 13:17:03 http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/23/t-mobiles-cto-on-g1-unlocking-and-tethering-plus-a-few-detai/ Sep 25 13:17:11 not its like a dark gold. Sep 25 13:17:23 aww. i want wood grain ;) Sep 25 13:17:33 http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/24/t-mobile-g1-impressions-what-we-love-what-we-dont/ Sep 25 13:17:43 you can see the brown phone in that last link Sep 25 13:17:56 its not that bad looking at least imo Sep 25 13:18:04 yeah Sep 25 13:18:07 looks fine Sep 25 13:18:19 whoops Sep 25 13:18:20 heh Sep 25 13:18:24 i hate it when i do that. Sep 25 13:18:34 i accidentally ctrl+w when i think i'm on firefox but im in irc Sep 25 13:19:20 yeah, it blows. Sep 25 13:21:46 man im excited Sep 25 13:22:04 its gonna be pretty sweet. Sep 25 13:22:24 you're gonna wait though? Sep 25 13:22:31 for a different one? Sep 25 13:23:25 im gonna wait :( Sep 25 13:23:27 im on sprint. Sep 25 13:23:34 so im just hoping the first sprint one is cool Sep 25 13:23:43 and i don't want to spend 400 bucks for it Sep 25 13:23:44 hmm Sep 25 13:24:05 i'm on verizon, and i specifically did not get a new phone in the last year so i would be free of my contract Sep 25 13:24:31 not to mention my mom wants me to get off of her plan..i have been living away from home for three and a half years after all heh Sep 25 13:24:41 yeah, i haven't renewed my contract specifically so i could get android. Sep 25 13:24:47 hah Sep 25 13:24:55 im on the sero plan though, so I don't want to ruin that. Sep 25 13:24:55 I think I'm just gonna jump ship to t-mobile for the time being and see what happens after that. Sep 25 13:26:41 yeah, with the G1 it's going to be pretty sweet Sep 25 13:26:52 it sucks that t-mobile has such bad service...I'm in seattle metro area though so I hope it will be sufficient Sep 25 13:27:28 i'm pondering whether to shell out the extra 200 bucks for no contract or not. Sep 25 13:27:54 well, you can always just do the contract and if it blows after 30 days jump ship. Sep 25 13:28:03 because most contracts have a 30 day bail out clause. Sep 25 13:28:13 yeah, but do I get to keep the phone? Sep 25 13:28:22 that would be too easy Sep 25 13:28:26 i doubt it Sep 25 13:28:30 i think you have to give back the phone. Sep 25 13:28:34 yeah. i wanna take it with me ;) Sep 25 13:28:39 but you can always shift to sprint. Sep 25 13:28:46 are there any known features so far that are specific to tmobile? Sep 25 13:28:50 yeah but i thought it wouldnt work on anyone elses data. Sep 25 13:29:03 all of the data I heard is specific to tmobile Sep 25 13:29:06 ohhh yeah right. because they use weird freqs or whatever? Sep 25 13:29:17 damn. Sep 25 13:29:23 nevermind, i'll do the contract heh Sep 25 13:29:39 2 years seems to go by in a flash these days Sep 25 13:29:42 yeah. Sep 25 13:29:53 and if it totally sucks you can switch to sprint in 30 days. Sep 25 13:29:59 then just wait for sprint to get a phone. Sep 25 13:30:03 yeah Sep 25 13:30:04 or do a prepaid thing for a couple months. Sep 25 13:30:11 until sprint comes out with an android phone. and then get that Sep 25 13:30:25 i could also just keep my vzw line while i try out tmobile Sep 25 13:30:37 true Sep 25 13:30:43 i'd like to keep my number because i've had it for about 7 years but it wouldn't kill me to change it Sep 25 13:32:09 actually I have to keep it. One of my estranged long-time friends calls me every time he ends up in county jail, because my number is the only one he can remember heh Sep 25 13:32:36 hah Sep 25 13:32:45 sounds like a good reason to keep a phone number. Sep 25 13:33:04 i take it he ends up in county jail fairly often Sep 25 13:33:06 going down the jail is always amusing Sep 25 13:33:10 haha not that often these days Sep 25 13:33:21 once a year or so Sep 25 13:33:49 well, when you beat your wife so often, .... Sep 25 13:34:29 heh. he wishes it was over things so worthy of being imprisoned for. its always something dumb like, got pulled over speeding on his motorcycle and had forgotten to call his probation officer for the last couple months. Sep 25 13:35:05 i don't think hes actually gotten in trouble for anything remotely 'criminal' for 2-3 years lol Sep 25 13:35:19 that reminds me Sep 25 13:35:22 * DannyB calls probation officer Sep 25 13:35:38 yeah man. he got 3 weeks for that shit last time. gotta stay on top of it Sep 25 13:35:54 lol im lucky ive never had to deal with that crap i guess Sep 25 13:36:33 really it isn't hard to avoid. some people just have a natural inclination for being stupid ;) Sep 25 13:36:56 true. Sep 25 13:37:05 i think my little brother falls into that category. Sep 25 13:37:10 he does some stupid shit. Sep 25 13:37:22 i don't think he ha a probation officer yet though Sep 25 13:37:29 s/ha/has/g Sep 25 13:37:29 Dougie187 meant: i don't think he has a probation officer yet though Sep 25 13:37:55 i love vim find and replace. Sep 25 13:38:06 heh Sep 25 13:38:25 i want textmate on linux...i wish I had a mac at work. ubuntu sucks :/ Sep 25 13:39:22 lol, i enjoy ubuntu Sep 25 13:39:29 heh Sep 25 13:39:55 vi is your friend Sep 25 13:40:49 hell yeah Sep 25 13:41:00 vim is where its at Sep 25 13:41:19 yakischloba: http://punkracy.com/articles/2007/02/08/textmate-for-linux Sep 25 13:41:26 i used to like linux on a workstation until i used a mac for a couple years Sep 25 13:41:47 im not a big fan of macs. Sep 25 13:41:54 but thats a personal opinion. Sep 25 13:42:01 i love my thinkpad. Sep 25 13:42:11 eh. neither was I until I bought one on a whim and got used to it Sep 25 13:42:25 man we found this monster spider sitting out in the middle of the datacenter yesterday Sep 25 13:42:33 thing was fuckin huge Sep 25 13:42:39 Heh Sep 25 13:42:42 did it pay for colo space? Sep 25 13:42:45 if not you should kick it out Sep 25 13:42:52 no, so yeah we kicked it out Sep 25 13:44:10 you could have put it in one of the amigas. Sep 25 13:44:23 or that old mac. Sep 25 13:44:32 haha Sep 25 13:44:40 thats probably where it came from Sep 25 13:44:44 gave it a nice little house Sep 25 13:45:01 uhg. nothing like starting the morning with some russian ddos bullshit Sep 25 13:45:15 lol Sep 25 13:45:21 sounds like a party Sep 25 13:45:58 this one customer has been getting plowed on and off for about 3 weeks. i wish we'd just cut them off and be done with it. Sep 25 13:49:33 you should Sep 25 13:49:43 just break their machine and say it was the spider Sep 25 13:49:46 heh Sep 25 13:50:03 management has already told them they're on their last chance. Sep 25 13:50:08 be like "Man, this giant spider came in and ate through your machine, sorry but we can't host you anymore" Sep 25 13:50:31 it would be feasible considering the size of the beast Sep 25 13:50:35 heh Sep 25 13:57:03 so uhm Sep 25 13:57:07 is there no BT support yet? Sep 25 13:57:25 ? Sep 25 13:57:29 there is Sep 25 13:57:33 but no A2DP Sep 25 13:57:34 bluetooth Sep 25 13:57:53 rfcomm? Sep 25 13:58:24 I dont know which BT Profiles are supported Sep 25 13:58:50 brb Sep 25 14:14:22 yakischloba, they exposed the bluetooth classes in 0.9 and hide them away again in 1.0 Sep 25 14:21:14 gambler, nice.. Sep 25 14:23:01 how can i call Toast.makeText() from a listener? Sep 25 14:35:50 pardom: just call it. Sep 25 14:36:12 doesn't it need a context? Sep 25 14:37:42 yes, and you have one if your listener is a non-static inner classes or is anonymous Sep 25 14:38:13 https://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/java/javaOO/nested.html Sep 25 14:38:14 hold on i'm gonna debug again and show you the error Sep 25 14:38:44 fine Sep 25 14:38:59 oh man. i hate fortran Sep 25 14:39:02 i wonder if google makes hammocks available to it's employees.... Sep 25 14:41:00 i wonder if google employees like fortran. Sep 25 14:41:18 jasta: ahh... so you're saying nest the listener into the activity/service/etc Sep 25 14:42:10 pardom: that's the most common strategy, but you could also just instantiate your listener class with the context. Sep 25 14:42:34 you should really take some time to learn Java before diving into Android. Sep 25 14:42:47 go through the tutorials on the page i linked to you to get a good start. do simple examples, that sort of thing. Sep 25 14:42:53 then move onto Android. trust me, it's a better way to go. Sep 25 14:43:01 nonsense Sep 25 14:45:15 k thanks Sep 25 14:46:22 i develop C# every day so i've been chugging along slowly but surely Sep 25 15:20:49 Does the G1's mini-USB have the capacity to act as a USB host? Sep 25 15:21:20 not that things would work out of the box - but is it theoretically possible to be able to plug a full-on USB keyboard into the phone? Sep 25 15:21:27 or a USB storage device (into an adapter) Sep 25 15:21:38 I doubt it can do usb host. Sep 25 15:21:55 Yeah, most phones can't. The openMoko free runner, otoh, can - which is why I even bother asking Sep 25 15:22:07 hmm yeah Sep 25 15:22:13 I presume android would support it if the device would support it Sep 25 15:22:17 but I doubt the G1 supports it Sep 25 15:22:27 yeah probably not Sep 25 15:22:48 I wonder how many years it will take for phones to be manufactured similarly to computers - with build-to-order options available... Sep 25 15:22:57 afaik freerunner is one of the first phones to include usb host Sep 25 15:23:13 maybe im wrong tho i duno Sep 25 15:23:39 Yeah. I wonder how long until android runs on that phone... Aside from it only being tri-band GSM and no 3G - I think the other hardware on that device is superior to the G1 Sep 25 15:23:52 i'm really disappointed that the G1 doesn't support A2DP, *and* tehre's no 3.5mm jack. Sep 25 15:24:01 so no wireless headphones, and no standard ones without a dongle. pathetic. Sep 25 15:24:18 the dongles are like 3 dollars Sep 25 15:24:23 jasta - you're still using those old scohol analog headphones? Sep 25 15:24:30 Sheesh - I've been using mini-USB headphones for decades! Sep 25 15:24:33 /sarcasm Sep 25 15:24:36 RyeBrye: well, normally i use wireless headphones Sep 25 15:24:48 headphones with batteries. joy! Sep 25 15:24:50 stereo bluetooth ftw Sep 25 15:24:59 benley: no kidding :P Sep 25 15:25:20 also, LOL DONGLE Sep 25 15:25:22 It hasn't been made clear to me - is the missing A2DP something that will be capable of being put back in with a software update? Sep 25 15:25:27 yes Sep 25 15:25:35 the bluetooth hardware is perfectly capable of doing a2dp Sep 25 15:25:38 RyeBrye: yes Sep 25 15:26:11 Ok - the other thing I've been constantly asking about but never gotten a clear answer on - is what kind of profile support will be available eventually... The thing I'm most interested in is using a Bluetooth GPS instead of the one built-into the phone Sep 25 15:26:19 or using a Bluetooth keyboard instead of the slider in the phone Sep 25 15:26:41 why would you need external gps, out of curiousity Sep 25 15:26:41 RyeBrye: I don't think any of that is defined concretely yet Sep 25 15:27:33 RyeBrye: afaik there is no available bluetooth api in the current release, it will all be coming later Sep 25 15:27:55 RyeBrye: i imagine the hardware will support all mainstream bt profiles though Sep 25 15:28:04 The external GPS I would want for several reasons - the first of which is that I could make use of a GPS unit that is superior to the one built into the phone and would get fixes faster in both hot and cold start situations (the SiRF III chipset is hella fast - and on devices with batteries it's TTFF is less than 30 seconds - and a hot start is less than 1 second) Sep 25 15:28:29 Has it been stated which GPS chip is in G1? Sep 25 15:28:40 I highly doubt it is SiRF III Sep 25 15:28:54 hmm. Seems like everything is sirf III these days Sep 25 15:29:03 True - but the iPhone certainly isn't Sep 25 15:29:08 yeah thats true Sep 25 15:29:24 RyeBrye: the gps on the device gets a fairly quick fix as far as i can tell Sep 25 15:29:25 that's the main reason I ask - the iPhone's GPS sucks horribly Sep 25 15:30:02 with my limited use of GPS on the device anyways Sep 25 15:30:06 I've never tried gps on an iphone, but the g1 seems to work pretty well in a car or outdoors Sep 25 15:30:08 i dont use it often Sep 25 15:30:14 RyeBrye: I wouldn't give up hope just because of the iphone so fast Sep 25 15:30:17 so I imagine it's possible for the GPS chipset in some android phone to suck horribly as well - plus the whole idea of future proofing... i.e. if a new chipset comes out that is the beesknees it would be nice to switch Sep 25 15:30:17 benley: it works pretty well Sep 25 15:30:40 argh, I need a >2gb sd card Sep 25 15:30:59 plus... I already have a bluetooth GPS unit I have come to love :) Sep 25 15:31:17 benley: i have a 4gb one somewhere Sep 25 15:31:23 jeffb: microsd? Sep 25 15:31:23 I was using it with my SE P990 for TomTom until the phone died an igoniminious death Sep 25 15:31:26 yes Sep 25 15:31:42 jeffb: I should probably just go buy an 8gb one, they're probably not that expensive Sep 25 15:31:52 true Sep 25 15:31:53 yeah $30 or so Sep 25 15:32:05 8 Gb is the max for the G1, right? Sep 25 15:32:08 RyeBrye: it looks like HTC has used sirf III in a couple of their other phones. its possible its in the G1 though I can't find a reference Sep 25 15:32:08 there's 16gb ones floating around now Sep 25 15:32:18 RyeBrye: only because that's the biggest you can buy, the thing supports SDHC Sep 25 15:32:26 Micro SD? Sep 25 15:32:34 * benley really needs to finish his damn podcaster app Sep 25 15:32:34 RyeBrye: biggest ive tried is 4gb, but ive heard reports of others working with 8gb Sep 25 15:32:54 not sure if we've tested 16gb ones due to availability of them Sep 25 15:32:58 oh nice, there do exist 16gb microsd cards Sep 25 15:33:08 cool Sep 25 15:33:11 looks like they're still rare Sep 25 15:33:18 do they cost a fortune? :P Sep 25 15:33:29 amazon doesn't have any. Sep 25 15:33:41 I found one on some .uk site for about gbp40 Sep 25 15:33:43 Of course, the GPS chipset also begs the question - would it be possible for the device to act as an NMEA compatible bluetooth GPS unit itself - letting you use it as a GPS device to connect to your computer and - say - power Google Earth Pro or whatnot Sep 25 15:34:05 (had to through that google use case in there ;) ) Sep 25 15:34:10 heh Sep 25 15:34:43 RyeBrye: ive asked about this as well, there wasnt a clear answer, but it was thought to be possible Sep 25 15:34:51 cool Sep 25 15:35:42 Does the GPS api just spew nmea or does it provide abstraction over that? (I assume the latter?) Sep 25 15:35:52 yakischloba: It's abstracted. Sep 25 15:35:56 yakischloba: You get "location updates". Sep 25 15:35:56 TUTTLES Sep 25 15:36:00 gotcha. Sep 25 15:36:01 JEFFBS! Sep 25 15:36:04 sup dude Sep 25 15:36:06 how's school Sep 25 15:36:07 jeffb: Not much. Sep 25 15:36:09 jeffb: It's awesome. Sep 25 15:36:12 jeffb: How's work? Sep 25 15:36:17 busy as usual Sep 25 15:36:23 I'm assuming the answer to this is completely hardware dependent - but I'm guessing that the USB output is not at a low level... i.e. it's "USB" not "a thing with pins" - the reason I ask is because in the CHDK project where we hack canon camera's firmware, we've gotten low-level access to the USB port to do some crazy things like making a manual shutter cable release that plugs into the mini-USB... etc Sep 25 15:37:15 or making a sych cable to enable you to fire off n cameras simultaneously for stero photography... etc. Sep 25 15:37:44 RyeBrye: does nikon do this? Sep 25 15:38:08 * jeffb would like some cool devices like that for his d300 :P Sep 25 15:38:21 nikon provides a decent remote-control interface via usb in their DSLR cameras Sep 25 15:38:38 CHDK targets canon non-slrs, afaik Sep 25 15:38:45 ah yes, that porject Sep 25 15:38:48 CHDK is specific to Canon - it runs on two different canon firmwares... http://chdk.org - it's mostly focused on the consumer level cameras... (i.e. enabling raw mode and stuff ) Sep 25 15:38:49 project Sep 25 15:38:58 romainguy: morning! Sep 25 15:39:31 ive been meaning to convert my mom's sd500 or whatever to it Sep 25 15:39:32 err rather http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK would be hte page to it - the relevance to android is the interesting things you can do with a USB port if you have low level access to it Sep 25 15:42:17 jeffb: So what's been going on since I've left? Anything cool (and nonconf)? Sep 25 15:42:55 still the same dude, just no more interns since they all went back to school :P Sep 25 15:42:59 romainguy: do you know if the G1 has hardware 3d acceleration? :) Sep 25 15:43:02 ttuttle: always fishing for info are you? :) Sep 25 15:43:14 romainguy: oh yeah Sep 25 15:43:19 tmccrary: it does, for OpenGL Sep 25 15:43:26 awesome, thanks for the info :) Sep 25 15:43:39 the 2D APi is not though :( Sep 25 15:43:42 (working on it ) Sep 25 15:44:01 Do you know roughly how powerful the 3d chip is? Anything like the iphone? Sep 25 15:44:12 I have no idea Sep 25 15:44:17 but Quake runs pretty smoothly ^^ Sep 25 15:44:24 and the rendering quality is really good Sep 25 15:44:25 romainguy: Damn, I never did get to try that. Sep 25 15:44:34 how many accelerometers does the G1 have in it? Sep 25 15:44:38 RyeBrye: Enough. Sep 25 15:44:41 cool, I wrote a an opengl es backend for our engine specifically for android Sep 25 15:44:46 RyeBrye: (You get all 3 dimensions.) Sep 25 15:44:50 Ok Sep 25 15:44:58 no 4th dimension! :( Sep 25 15:45:07 I want to know if I'm moving through something that dilates time! Sep 25 15:45:08 so the G1 will be a good way to really test things out :) Sep 25 15:45:20 can any of the google guys comment on the supposed "jerky" scrolling in the G1 browser. Sep 25 15:45:35 would that be hardware related, user error, etc? Sep 25 15:45:35 huh? Sep 25 15:45:52 tethridge: its a mobile device, the iphone has similar problems with complex pages Sep 25 15:45:55 gizmodo did the side-by-side video and showed the android browser was jerky compared to the iPhone - I think that's what he's talking about Sep 25 15:45:59 tethridge: I've seen that come and go with various debug builds. Seems ok most of the time. On par with the iphone. Sep 25 15:46:03 RyeBrye: Unfortunately the G1 cannot detect ripples in the space-time continuum, as the CPU would be affected by the time ripple as well. Sep 25 15:46:07 RyeBrye, right Sep 25 15:46:20 RyeBrye: that could be due to many many reasons Sep 25 15:46:37 romainguy: It may be slated for Android 1.1 though. Sep 25 15:47:01 * ttuttle has actually seen an iPhone lag before. Sep 25 15:47:06 but, as a reminder: 2D drawing is not hardware accelerated (yet) on G1, the CPU does not run at full speed for battery performance reasons, and we run tons of interpreted Dalvik code Sep 25 15:47:13 i picked up a 3g iphone a month ago Sep 25 15:47:24 and ive been nothing but frustrated with it :( Sep 25 15:47:24 jeffb: >_< Sep 25 15:47:26 romainguy: can I hack it to run the cpu balls-out to see what happens? Sep 25 15:47:27 jeffb: =D Sep 25 15:47:47 benley: swetland would know how to do this, but it doesn't make much o a difference Sep 25 15:47:50 benley: Yes, echo "GO REALLY FAST" > /dev/kmem. Sep 25 15:47:53 The linux underbelly is going to be inaccessible, I assume? i.e. I wont be able to drop into a shell and navigate the file system, move files, or run processes from a command line? Sep 25 15:48:09 you can still adb shell in the G1 Sep 25 15:48:13 but you're not root Sep 25 15:48:21 Oh, and if you adb shell, please try top. (I wrote it.) Sep 25 15:48:26 Cool :) Sep 25 15:48:28 ;) Sep 25 15:48:31 interns++ Sep 25 15:48:33 haha Sep 25 15:49:23 Are there going to be easy facilities for doing stuff like that romainguy? (Can I bring home my G1 from the T-mobile store and use readily available dev tools to push apps to it and connect with adb, etc?) Sep 25 15:49:53 there's a developer option in the settings to enable adb Sep 25 15:50:05 it lets you push apks, debug your app (if you set your app in debug mode), etc. Sep 25 15:50:32 Cool. So that option is going to be there on the retail phone? Sep 25 15:50:37 yes Sep 25 15:50:41 awesome. Sep 25 15:50:45 I'm using a retail phone to write my apps these days Sep 25 15:50:45 romainguy: YES! Sep 25 15:50:46 all the syncing is gone from the content providers Sep 25 15:50:47 What would it take to be root on a G1? Sep 25 15:50:49 romainguy: This is awesome. Sep 25 15:50:50 any reason for that? Sep 25 15:50:57 romainguy: Ooh, me want! :( Sep 25 15:51:08 romainguy: Find San's cat so he can send me a phone. (Long story.) Sep 25 15:51:09 RyeBrye: San (or maybe swetland) was saying earlier that root will require an unlocked phone. Sep 25 15:51:11 hi all Sep 25 15:51:17 Xuefan: greetings Sep 25 15:51:30 jasta: correct Sep 25 15:51:33 RyeBrye: but that there are rumors that T-Mobile will allow "customers in good standing" to unlock them Sep 25 15:51:42 jasta - interesting. Guess I'll be leveraging my 5+ years on T-mobile to get an unlock from them Sep 25 15:51:55 Never heard about the "good standing" part, only that all phones will be unlockable 90 days after purchase Sep 25 15:52:11 Cedric2: thats what they call good standing, i think Sep 25 15:52:16 haha Sep 25 15:52:19 "good standing" just means "don't owe them hundreds of dollars in back bills" Sep 25 15:52:22 AT&T is the same way. with an "old enough" account, you can get an unlock of any phone Sep 25 15:52:26 except the iphone ;) Sep 25 15:52:41 benley: heh Sep 25 15:52:47 Yeah, I hope T-mo doesn't make a similar exception for the G1 Sep 25 15:52:52 * RyeBrye want root Sep 25 15:53:07 Why do you need root? Sep 25 15:53:09 you're 1 local root exploit away from them not being able to tell you what you can do with it :) Sep 25 15:53:15 jeffb: heh Sep 25 15:53:16 er Sep 25 15:53:17 jasta: heh Sep 25 15:53:17 why wouldn't you want root? Sep 25 15:53:21 its your device Sep 25 15:53:23 grrr, fuckers can't wait 12 hours for me to reply to a bug Sep 25 15:53:30 su Sep 25 15:53:31 tmccrary: If you can get root, an app might be able to get root and break your phone. Sep 25 15:53:35 >>>timezones<<< people Sep 25 15:53:41 I'm not saying "why not run everything as root" Sep 25 15:53:51 but if I buy something, I don't want to be locked out of parts of it Sep 25 15:53:52 tmccrary: I know, but if *you* can "su" to root, what prevents another app from doing it? Sep 25 15:53:55 If it's just for personal satisfaction and not for concrete goals, you're not going to convince a lot of engineers to help you achieve that goal :) Sep 25 15:54:05 uh a password or some form of credentials Sep 25 15:54:24 tmccrary: "Please set a root password for your T-Mobile G1" = bad UI design Sep 25 15:54:31 tmccrary: Or the password will have a default which everyone will use. Sep 25 15:54:38 you're sounding a lot like all the idiot iphone developers out there Sep 25 15:54:46 tmccrary: What? Sep 25 15:54:51 lol Sep 25 15:54:52 tmccrary: No! Sep 25 15:54:56 Are you calling us idiots? Sep 25 15:54:58 chillax Sep 25 15:54:59 they have the same stupid arguments for being locked out of the iphone Sep 25 15:55:15 there's a rather large difference in the amount of locking between the two devices Sep 25 15:55:16 tmccrary: Yes, but their idea of locked out is FAR more restrictive. Sep 25 15:55:18 == benley Sep 25 15:55:20 iphone: NO YOU CANNOT INSTALL THINGS Sep 25 15:55:31 g1: Go ahead, run your code, whatever Sep 25 15:55:35 Well... to be fair - the iphone's root password is trivial and well known Sep 25 15:55:42 yeah aspen or something like that Sep 25 15:55:46 unless its changed recently Sep 25 15:55:50 tmccrary: That's dumb. Sep 25 15:55:52 yeah, and the same thing with the AppleTV Sep 25 15:55:57 tmccrary: It shouldn't *have* a root password. Sep 25 15:56:06 why not just have the root password initialized to something unique like a derivation of the IMEI? Sep 25 15:56:09 No it should have a password Sep 25 15:56:14 *root password Sep 25 15:56:16 oh wait, that's stupid. the IMEI is known ;) Sep 25 15:56:18 jasta: Figure out that derivation and security's broken. Sep 25 15:56:20 nevermind Sep 25 15:56:24 and technical users should be able to access their root account Sep 25 15:56:24 it should *not* have a root password, for the same reason that Ubuntu ships without a root password Sep 25 15:56:29 == benley Sep 25 15:56:34 the root account is just locked because normal users shouldn't touch it Sep 25 15:56:35 If you don't have a root password, nobody can root your box. Sep 25 15:56:42 Well, sorta. Sep 25 15:56:45 Well... I think the reason Ubuntu ships without a root password is the target audience of Ubunut Sep 25 15:56:45 ttuttle: well, uhh, no. Sep 25 15:56:47 Nobody can break the password. Sep 25 15:56:51 it should ship without one, but provide a good and secure way of setting one (like only over adb over usb) Sep 25 15:56:52 dumb users are doomed no matter what Sep 25 15:56:58 tmccrary: We're hoping not. Sep 25 15:57:02 ulmen: Good idea. Sep 25 15:57:17 The safety of millions of users matters to us more than slashdotter happiness. Sep 25 15:57:17 well, you're hoping against the combined experience of the universe since time began Sep 25 15:57:21 RyeBrye: what do you think is the target audience of a mass produced phone on a major carrier? Sep 25 15:57:25 :) Sep 25 15:57:31 jeffb - point taken Sep 25 15:57:41 that and without being root, you can still write your apps ^^ Sep 25 15:57:55 you can always play with the emulator to be root :p Sep 25 15:58:13 so all the sync classes from the android.content have been removed Sep 25 15:58:14 guys Sep 25 15:58:15 I assume if the entire firmware can be flashed - the issue of becoming root woudl be moot Sep 25 15:58:15 hum Sep 25 15:58:19 there's a much simpler way to get root on these phones Sep 25 15:58:26 jtag? Sep 25 15:58:27 :) Sep 25 15:58:29 just find out which system tools romain wrote, and exploit them :) Sep 25 15:58:30 hehe Sep 25 15:58:35 RyeBrye: not it can't be flashed on a product device Sep 25 15:58:35 actually Sep 25 15:58:47 no* Sep 25 15:58:52 the only system tool I wrote is disabled on production devices :)) Sep 25 15:58:52 i don't see why i still can't have the same freedom on my smartphone that i have on my pc ... Sep 25 15:59:02 Cedric2 - it can't be flashed at all? so no upgrades can be put out to replace it? Sep 25 15:59:19 RyeBrye: two different things Sep 25 15:59:20 RyeBrye: OTA Sep 25 15:59:51 The extent of what you can flash is restricted, which means you can't add your own su command, for exampe Sep 25 15:59:52 Cedric2 - Yes, two different things, of course. Upgrades probably require some kind of signing to work, I assume Sep 25 16:01:10 Right... but I've got a pile of hardware in my house that would suggest that devices that "can't be flashed" actually can be... I've probably got 4 routers running linux on them now that went through various roundabout ways to be pwned completely, an old iPod running linux, and a camera running a custom firmware as well Sep 25 16:01:59 Heck - even Apple's Fort Knox is regularly pwned and jailbroken - a fact that probably makes Steve Jobs hurt puppies Sep 25 16:02:25 RyeBrye: if you are suggesting it can theoretically be done, I'm not going to go on record saying the system cannot be hacked Sep 25 16:02:32 because it probably will within 24 hours we ship Sep 25 16:02:48 haha Sep 25 16:02:51 Right - but obivously - no official support to replace the entire firmware Sep 25 16:03:09 (I'd bet it will take more than 24 hours though) Sep 25 16:03:12 as with any other device that runs software Sep 25 16:03:29 RyeBrye: i reflashed my car's ECU Sep 25 16:03:40 jeffb: I reflashed your mom Sep 25 16:03:42 NO Sep 25 16:03:55 using a TIFF exploit, no doubt Sep 25 16:03:55 I don't know what the aversion to just selling hardware is - if a handful of people want to pay 600 bucks for a device and run a their own shit on it, why is that such a big deal? Sep 25 16:04:30 yakischloba: I don't want to defend what the carriers are doing, but this kind of thing has a lot of repercussions on their business model Sep 25 16:04:36 It's much more complicated than developers usually think Sep 25 16:04:42 i think messing with it in any way you like should be an advertised feature, not a hack ... secure for everyone who doesn't care, open for the ones who care Sep 25 16:04:52 I bet if it's only a handful, it would be more than $600 - but doing something similar to Intel with their "extreme" processors - where they sell a version that has the multiplier unlockd for three or four times the price of a normal one Sep 25 16:05:18 And if history proves anything, it's that just because hardware is locked up doesn't mean it won't do well in the market place Sep 25 16:05:21 Cedric2: oh, I believe that any business model a carrier has is overcomplicated beyond comprehension Sep 25 16:05:21 Witness the iPhone... Sep 25 16:05:52 99% of the target audience couldn't care less about the openness of the product Sep 25 16:05:52 witness any windows mobile device, nokia/symbian, etc Sep 25 16:05:55 I would go so far as to say that hackers breaking open the iPhone early on is what has propelled much of its success Sep 25 16:06:04 RyeBrye: I strongly doubt that Sep 25 16:06:24 The iPhone was already a huge success months before an SDK even became available Sep 25 16:06:27 iphone's success is due to the cool interface and a marketing campaign Sep 25 16:06:38 everything else about it sucks Sep 25 16:06:40 tmccrary: marketing. Sep 25 16:06:57 its the !phone Sep 25 16:07:03 These past five years, Apple has been confirming that the Cathedral and the Bazaar is just utter nonsense :) Sep 25 16:07:20 Yeah..I know a ton of people with the iPhone, I doubt any of them even know what SDK stands for or has downloaded extra apps for their phone Sep 25 16:07:29 yakischloba: exactly Sep 25 16:07:56 the masses could give a shit as long as its gimmicky enough Sep 25 16:08:00 But I think the approval of the "geeky friend" has somethign to do that - and there's no way I would have let my three sisters and two parents all buy iPhones without shaming them publicly if it hadn't been jailbroken with cool things like the NES emulator on it a month or so after release Sep 25 16:08:11 Cedric2: how so? There aren't any good applications for the iphone and it's clearly cathedral style development Sep 25 16:08:29 it's a bazaar inside a cathedral Sep 25 16:08:33 or were you being sarcastic and I didn't catch it? :) Sep 25 16:08:41 tmccrary: Yes, it's the proof that cathedral style, closed source and locked up software development works great Sep 25 16:08:45 as opposed to what the paper claims Sep 25 16:08:52 but there are no good apps for the iphone Sep 25 16:08:53 none Sep 25 16:08:55 zip Sep 25 16:08:56 please please, give me this one with android http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/25/art-lebedevs-scartel-wimax-handset-concept-were-moving-to-rus/ Sep 25 16:08:57 but we already knew that with Windows anyway Sep 25 16:08:58 ziltch Sep 25 16:09:11 Cedric2: and Adobe :) Sep 25 16:09:33 holy cow, 850x480 in a cellphone display Sep 25 16:09:34 Cedrid2 - when you consider it's BSD underpinnings it is like a cathedral built on top of a bazaar Sep 25 16:09:34 <3 Sep 25 16:10:01 Cedric2 - there's no way Apple would have been able to push out these products if they had to write unix themselves from scratch Sep 25 16:10:08 benley: i want 2560x1600 on my cellphone Sep 25 16:10:27 jeffb: and 462pt font size Sep 25 16:10:30 The BSD underpinnings have contributed close to nothing to the success Sep 25 16:10:34 romainguy: haha Sep 25 16:10:38 it's all in the finish and the user interaction Sep 25 16:10:46 something the Bazaar model is terrible at Sep 25 16:10:55 I wouldn't go that far Sep 25 16:11:09 Cedric2: :)) Sep 25 16:11:27 You seem to see the world through drunk googles or something Sep 25 16:11:36 there is plenty of hideous commercial software out there Sep 25 16:11:38 Cedric2 - that's like saying that the drive train and the engine of the BMW contribute nothing to the BMW - it's all about the leather seats and the climate control Sep 25 16:11:40 Admittedly, I haven't had coffee yet Sep 25 16:12:17 You could put SystemV, Hurd or whatever underneath, doesn't matter, it's like saying that transistors are part of the success of the iPhone Sep 25 16:12:34 This is not what makes or breaks a product with the public Sep 25 16:13:11 * benley goes to the friggin office Sep 25 16:13:37 Fair enough - the users care about their experience - granted - but you couldn't run the iPhone without a decent CPU and without a decent OS behind it Sep 25 16:14:10 so - yes - the transistors are a part of it - but they aren't a competitive advantage since other phones have the same CPU technology Sep 25 16:14:16 RyeBrye: the iPhone could be running Windows Mobile or Symbian and still be good Sep 25 16:14:38 The fact that the underpinning is MacOS and BSD is of little consequence Sep 25 16:14:46 sounds like someone drinks the koolaid in redmond, lol Sep 25 16:15:17 I'm in Mountain View, the weather is much better here Sep 25 16:15:32 yeah I'll bet Sep 25 16:15:44 haha Sep 25 16:16:11 they give us free roaming cage free organic koolaid in mountain view Sep 25 16:16:37 from renewable sources! Sep 25 16:16:43 in recycled containers! Sep 25 16:16:56 to say that the os underlying any type of computing device is completely irrelevant is so hilariously misinformed, I really don't know what to say Sep 25 16:16:57 I actually like Windows Mobile. Of course, I think our system is better, but I enjoyed WinMo on my HTC Sep 25 16:17:19 benley: how do YOU feel about winmo? :P Sep 25 16:17:26 tmccrary: you really think that the fact that the iPhone runs MacOS is an important part of its success? Sep 25 16:17:27 Cedric2: obviously you replaced one of the most used pieces of software... Sep 25 16:17:28 the brwoser. Sep 25 16:17:36 browser* Sep 25 16:17:42 Cedric2: the only important part of its success is the silver apple logo on the back of it Sep 25 16:17:43 Cedric2 - I think that the fact that the iPhone runs on BSD / OS X is significant - probably not because of the OSS nature of the underlying layer though. I think the significance comes in the shared platform across all the products Sep 25 16:17:59 Cedric2: Indirectly, yes Sep 25 16:18:46 these x1fm dj's make me die on the inside every time they talk Sep 25 16:18:47 The apps run nicely because the operating system underneath provides the ability to do so Sep 25 16:18:50 so you're right, a large part of my original point is probably washed away - but a lot of their work developing frameworks for the OS X translates directly over to iPhone or AppleTV, or whatever crazy thing they have cooking up Sep 25 16:18:52 That's an odd view, but well Sep 25 16:19:11 My point is that all current operating systems offer similar functionalities as MacOS Sep 25 16:19:13 What good would slick apps be, if your underlying software caused them to run choppily, unreliably and unsecured? Sep 25 16:19:55 The iphone's applications don't run on magic Sep 25 16:20:12 you also dont need to run macos to accomplish those goals Sep 25 16:20:18 The architecture is what makes everything so smooth, same goes for big brother Mac OSX Sep 25 16:20:29 Yes - you're right... but I think there is a group of "cathedral builders" who do build their cathedrals on top of the bazaar - rather than buying a foundation from another cathedral builder - such as TiVo Sep 25 16:20:29 The strength of the iPhone is in its look and feel, not in its foundation, which is made of commoditized software Sep 25 16:20:56 not so much the look but the feel Sep 25 16:21:29 Cedric2, for most users I'm guessing you're right. For me the only thing that interested me was the fact I could hack it, ssh into it, run apache and all kinds of strange crap on a thing that I carry around in my pocket Sep 25 16:21:38 but yes, I'm probably a huge minority Sep 25 16:21:43 yeah you are Sep 25 16:21:47 RyeBrye: I'm 100% on your side, but I know that what I want is atypical Sep 25 16:22:28 Actually, I view my own feature requests with a lot of suspicion now Sep 25 16:22:33 If I want it, it's probably not good for users Sep 25 16:22:51 It makes for a good anti-Litmus test when you design this kind of product :) Sep 25 16:22:55 Yes, but I probably want it. Am I not a user? If you prick me, do I not bleed? If you crash my phone, do I not get pissed!? Sep 25 16:22:57 ;) Sep 25 16:23:09 blue blood! Sep 25 16:23:25 RyeBrye: you're a user, however not a typical one ;) Sep 25 16:23:57 Yes, but if you enable features that allow me to brick my phone, I might buy as many phones as a dozen typical users :) Sep 25 16:24:11 haha Sep 25 16:24:13 as much as I would like all those things, I certainly don't expect anyone to tailor a device to my desires. Putting in great efforts and legal action to prevent those uses is excessive, but no one is going to go out of their way for me. Sep 25 16:24:32 yakischloba: spot on. Sep 25 16:25:03 like not having root on the device - if thats what they need to do to ensure the security of the other 999,999 phone users, then thats what they have to do Sep 25 16:25:15 and people shouldn't make such a god damn fuss over it Sep 25 16:25:54 ... speaking of fussing... does the screen truly not auto rotate in v1? and is that on the roadmap to adjust for v2? Sep 25 16:25:58 or v1.0.1? Sep 25 16:26:09 (back to spit and polish of the UI) Sep 25 16:26:15 the screen does not auto rotate Sep 25 16:26:32 jeffb: auto rotation in the screen doesn't work very wll in practice Sep 25 16:26:38 try to do it with the device on a flat surface Sep 25 16:26:42 or near a big monitor Sep 25 16:26:51 Yes, you're right - even on the iPhone it can suck sometimes Sep 25 16:26:59 In practice, it turned out to be wrong more often than right, so we turned it off Sep 25 16:27:48 My camera seems to always get it right, but I think it uses discreet switches and not accelerometers Sep 25 16:28:03 never really thought about it Sep 25 16:28:58 multitouch is apple's pattent? Sep 25 16:29:12 I sure hope not. I've been multitouching things for years Sep 25 16:29:16 Anyone happen to know if the phone will come with whatever kinky usb cable it requires? Sep 25 16:29:18 (well... not computers) Sep 25 16:29:26 so why no multitouch on dream? Sep 25 16:29:41 Apple probably has patents on it. Sep 25 16:29:49 I wonder if movies count as prior art ;) Sep 25 16:30:44 has patents pending. Sep 25 16:31:24 whether they actually get approved is a waiting game that stifles things, though i'm sure someone will release an app. Sep 25 16:31:59 RyeBrye: I *hate* the autorotate on the iPhone Sep 25 16:32:05 first because it works only in select apps Sep 25 16:32:11 then because it often gets stuck Sep 25 16:32:19 it drives me nuts, especially when its stuck in CoverFlow mode Sep 25 16:32:27 (pretty but darn useless) Sep 25 16:32:33 think of watching a movie in bed .. autorotate sucks Sep 25 16:33:41 i'm finally getting excited to have one of these phones in my hand :) Sep 25 16:33:56 got my AT&T account all sorted out, ready to move to T-Mobile Sep 25 16:34:24 i'm going to go ape if they put out a nicer handset than the g1 in december. Sep 25 16:34:27 jasta: did you have to pay the fee? Sep 25 16:36:11 without announcing that hey, the g1 is great for the average but we're putting out a pretty darn cool phone in a couple weeks. Sep 25 16:36:55 yakischloba: im gonna try a little scam to give the account to my gf because it has a lifetime 15% discount on it Sep 25 16:37:02 her account is eligible to terminate now Sep 25 16:37:06 oh cool. Sep 25 16:37:19 so that way i can keep my 15% discount and not pay an early termination, yay Sep 25 16:37:24 and myg f will take my old phone becuase she likes it Sep 25 16:37:35 initially she wanted an Android phone, but she thinks it's really ugly and doesn't want one now Sep 25 16:37:36 I hate my original Q Sep 25 16:37:38 things a piece of shit Sep 25 16:37:43 the original Q sucks Sep 25 16:37:50 the Q9H is awesome, i have to admit. Sep 25 16:37:53 the q9whatever is better though? Sep 25 16:37:54 hmm Sep 25 16:37:56 windows mobile still sucks of course, but the hardware is great Sep 25 16:38:11 cool. yeah mine is really slow Sep 25 16:38:29 my old one managed to brick itself magically under normal use, so I got a free replacement Sep 25 16:38:42 the replacement doesn't crash like the last one did, thank god Sep 25 16:40:11 < yakischlo> Anyone happen to know if the phone will come with whatever kinky usb cable it requires? Sep 25 16:40:17 it just uses a standard mini usb cable Sep 25 16:40:28 Doesn't it require a breakout adapter? Sep 25 16:41:06 the connector looks funky but i think its so custom accessories that are made *just* for the phones can have a squared off side so they dont get inserted to other devices, but the standard mini usb cables work too Sep 25 16:41:25 oh ok Sep 25 16:46:24 tric: so, it turns out a (the?) bug is that the emulator doesn't allow untrusted apps by default; there's been a bug filed, so someone should be working on it Sep 25 16:46:48 tric: I still have no idea about settings, though, so I'll keep poking about that Sep 25 17:02:45 how do i kill a listener? Sep 25 17:02:50 listener = null; Sep 25 17:02:51 ?? Sep 25 17:03:40 is it possible to browse the android market now? Sep 25 17:05:22 tethridge: not that i know of Sep 25 17:06:53 people are typically using eclipse for their development? Sep 25 17:07:15 I thought I saw an IntellIJ plugin somewhere - but I never loaded it Sep 25 17:09:10 * ulmen is using vim Sep 25 17:09:27 :wq Sep 25 17:11:49 is there a password manager app yet? Sep 25 17:13:55 hmm how is that handled anyway? is there something you can do to lock the screen automatically (requiring authentication to unlock?) Sep 25 17:14:05 i think there are several Sep 25 17:14:09 that sure would suck if I lost my phone with all my website passwords stored in the browser Sep 25 17:14:15 http://code.google.com/p/android-passwordsafe/ for example Sep 25 17:17:56 shit. TMO is going to make me pay $299 for the g1 Sep 25 17:18:01 fail fail fail Sep 25 17:18:12 might as well buy the unlocked one in that case Sep 25 17:18:16 that's because you're special Sep 25 17:18:24 what reason did they give? Sep 25 17:18:42 probably because I'm not on month-to-month Sep 25 17:18:49 I got my curve last year. Sep 25 17:19:37 these new gphones looks pretty sweet http://tinyurl.com/482gce Sep 25 17:19:54 s/these/this Sep 25 17:20:00 hagna: such wit! Sep 25 17:20:00 whaat Sep 25 17:20:49 :) Sep 25 17:21:10 o what a great phun ... Sep 25 17:29:31 is the G1 not playing video a software limitation or hardware? Sep 25 17:29:49 software Sep 25 17:29:49 afaik software? Sep 25 17:29:57 or rather, it's expected to be filled by devs Sep 25 17:30:42 km why they make you pay more? Sep 25 17:30:54 ah Sep 25 17:30:57 hrm. Sep 25 17:31:01 because I'm not ready for a re-up I think. Sep 25 17:31:09 that makes sense, I suppose Sep 25 17:31:16 that settles it, sticking with the blackberry Sep 25 17:31:16 http://www.t-mobileg1.com/pre-order-g1.aspx <-- note the youtube icon--oops. Sep 25 17:31:30 why oops? Sep 25 17:31:43 benley: cause it doesn't play video Sep 25 17:31:50 hagna: you're an idiot Sep 25 17:31:53 I thought they said there was a youtube app Sep 25 17:31:54 AttractiveApe: ouch Sep 25 17:31:54 hagna: go troll someplace else. Sep 25 17:32:06 it plays youtube. Sep 25 17:32:08 hagna: there's a youtube app. There's also a video player app in the market. Sep 25 17:32:09 it doesnt record video, but it plays youtube Sep 25 17:32:15 oh sorry I didn't know Sep 25 17:32:26 km == kidmagic? Sep 25 17:32:27 hagna: various tech blogs are just getting it wrong Sep 25 17:32:36 motley fool had it wrong Sep 25 17:32:42 heat: yes sir. Sep 25 17:32:47 heh. sup Sep 25 17:32:54 heat: long time no chat man, how' Sep 25 17:32:57 how's life? Sep 25 17:33:06 heh indeed :) life iss good Sep 25 17:33:19 why you not hangin in #linuxos anymore? Sep 25 17:33:22 work, play, you know.. :) (getting married) Sep 25 17:33:27 i am.. i'm idling! :) Sep 25 17:33:28 oh nice! Sep 25 17:33:44 heat: haha, cool. Sep 25 17:33:47 oof, marriage Sep 25 17:34:02 heat: yeah, I got married, bought a house and had a kid in the intervening years it's been since I've chatted with you last Sep 25 17:34:09 haha daaamn Sep 25 17:34:30 nice nice :) Sep 25 17:34:31 yeah, got married in '03, house in '05, and anklebiter was just born last father's day :) Sep 25 17:34:38 grats! :) Sep 25 17:34:43 I hope that's what you named your child Sep 25 17:34:49 i must have chatted with you since 03.. Sep 25 17:34:52 heat: when's your wedding btw? Sep 25 17:35:00 jasta: mid october Sep 25 17:35:08 summatus: Mr. Ankle Biter Sep 25 17:35:21 heat: hey i uploaded my photos from Ireland. hang on, i'll get you the link Sep 25 17:35:22 summatus: haha, no. Nathaniel, Nate for short. Sep 25 17:35:30 jasta: cools Sep 25 17:35:40 http://picasaweb.google.com/jasta00/Ireland2008 Sep 25 17:35:41 km-: good. I'm all for the name Ankle Biter Sep 25 17:35:47 km-: I like the name Nate Sep 25 17:35:51 heat: I was largely absent from IRC for a long while, a few years at least Sep 25 17:36:02 heat: the years I was playing WoW heavily :) Sep 25 17:36:17 km-: true.. yeah i haven't really had been active much either... Sep 25 17:36:23 LOL.. i haven't played WoW in years... Sep 25 17:36:37 haha Sep 25 17:36:39 2-3 yrs Sep 25 17:37:53 props for the beard jasta Sep 25 17:38:10 * heat notices jasta put on a little weight Sep 25 17:38:14 * heat hides Sep 25 17:38:22 hahaha Sep 25 17:38:41 I wonder who will be next to bring out a phone with android Sep 25 17:38:51 rumor has it sprint Sep 25 17:38:54 Sep 25 17:38:56 oh yeah, that's true. Sep 25 17:38:59 honestly, i decided to start going to the gym after i got back from Ireland. i felt sick i ate so much meat while i was there :) Sep 25 17:39:00 shh.. don't tell anyone Sep 25 17:39:02 asides from sprint since it's cdma Sep 25 17:39:03 hehe Sep 25 17:39:05 I know I'm getting old, because when I look at the pictures all I can think of is, "wow, look at that nice grass." Sep 25 17:39:06 heat: apple :) Sep 25 17:39:28 tethridge: you can't smoke that grass dude Sep 25 17:39:43 yeah, that's the old man part. I'm talking about the lawn Sep 25 17:39:48 jasta: meat is gooooooooood. Sep 25 17:39:52 you know you're getting old when you don't care about smoking grass Sep 25 17:40:15 * heat was about to make the obligatory "in soviet russia" joke.. Sep 25 17:40:27 jasta: nice pics.. looks beautiful Sep 25 17:40:38 heat: grass smokes you? Sep 25 17:40:44 indeed Sep 25 17:40:59 heat: aren't you like the only person here who can legitimately make soviet russia jokes Sep 25 17:41:02 ;) Sep 25 17:41:07 km-: heh probably :-) Sep 25 17:41:12 freakin' commies! Sep 25 17:41:13 hehe Sep 25 17:41:30 good lord I am a moron. Sep 25 17:41:42 Belarus for the win! Sep 25 17:41:50 I'm trying to figure out why this vmware server is flubbing the install, I just realized it's hooked up to iscsi. Over wifi. Sep 25 17:41:57 lol Sep 25 17:42:13 km 4tl Sep 25 17:42:28 AttractiveApe: then you'd love ireland. the typical breakfast is 1 fried egg, 1 cooked tomato, 2 huge slices of bacon (it's more like christmas ham), 2 huge sausages, and black pudding (which is also a type of sausage) Sep 25 17:42:32 jasta, it's interesting how random the headstones are in that graveyard Sep 25 17:42:41 well they span hundreds of years time Sep 25 17:42:44 http://picasaweb.google.com/jasta00/Ireland2008#5249760210085898770 Sep 25 17:42:48 those arent graveyards either, theyre cathedrals Sep 25 17:43:05 so no body is buried there? Sep 25 17:43:07 all the 12th to 15th century churches have members of the church buried in and around them Sep 25 17:43:17 no, they are graveyards in that sense, but they are special graveyards for members of the church Sep 25 17:43:21 and royalty Sep 25 17:43:44 yeah, but the headstones are almost on top of each other Sep 25 17:43:51 oh, they are standing graves Sep 25 17:44:02 oh Sep 25 17:44:06 thats a really common thing all over Ireland, probably because so many people died all at once so many times Sep 25 17:44:14 never thought about that Sep 25 17:44:25 Ireland's had several events through history where huge percentages of their population died in just a few years Sep 25 17:44:37 the potato famine, the plague, cromwells invasion, etc. Sep 25 17:45:19 Hi everyone, does anyone fix problem in email store.connect() in android? Sep 25 17:45:43 jasta, did you put "Big Willy" to your ass? Sep 25 17:45:52 jasta: heh, sounds fun then. :) Sep 25 17:45:53 URLName urln = new URLName("imap", host, 993, null, username, password); Sep 25 17:45:53 Store store = session.getStore(urln); Sep 25 17:45:53 store.connect(); Sep 25 17:46:03 there's this creepy stretch of road where they have crosses and stone carvings all over where allegedly a group of 600 peasants starved to death as they walked back to their homes after being refused food by the local landlord Sep 25 17:46:26 during the famine Sep 25 17:46:37 like the whole town picked up and hiked to the landlords house several miles away to beg for food Sep 25 17:46:42 he refused them, and half of them died walking back Sep 25 17:46:45 all over the road Sep 25 17:46:58 crazy Sep 25 17:47:06 yeah, it's a very gloomy area too. really creepy Sep 25 17:47:09 should've had a donner party Sep 25 17:47:27 my favorite little local story was at this pub in Galway called The King's Head Sep 25 17:48:13 where allegedly the two men that beheaded Charles I were given a plot of land "as far from England as could be" in the western fringe of Ireland Sep 25 17:48:20 so they started a pub there :) Sep 25 17:48:30 and it's been around ever since Sep 25 17:48:47 quite the historian you've become Sep 25 17:49:00 there's a lot of history in Ireland :) Sep 25 17:49:03 it was really fascinating Sep 25 17:49:08 their modern history is especially interesting Sep 25 17:49:19 I'll take your lack of comment as a yes to the big willy question. Sep 25 17:49:21 their economy has surged so much that suddenly the Northern Irish are jealous of them. Sep 25 17:49:37 and for the first time ireland is seeing a lot of immigration into the country Sep 25 17:50:01 Do you know which country started the idea of outsourcing? Sep 25 17:50:37 ? Sep 25 17:50:45 Ireland ;) Sep 25 17:51:11 its interesting that most of the country is inhabited by young people Sep 25 17:51:50 so much meat and beer that they die young huh Sep 25 17:51:54 because the last 20 years or so were the first time there was reason to stay in the country Sep 25 17:52:47 re pawalls Sep 25 17:52:56 i also learned that Guinness is an enormous mega corporation Sep 25 17:53:01 http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30392 Sep 25 17:53:04 they brew like everything they drink in Ireland :) Sep 25 17:53:14 and they own everything Sep 25 17:53:22 Smirnoff Vodka, for example, is owned by Guinness' holding company Sep 25 17:54:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diageo Sep 25 17:54:23 Guinness is under license to brew Budweiser hehe, so its everywhere in Ireland Sep 25 17:54:35 I fell in love with a new beer while I was there too: Sep 25 17:54:37 Shutting down VM Sep 25 17:54:37 W/dalvikvm( 326): threadid=3: thread exiting with uncaught exception (group=0x40010e28) Sep 25 17:54:37 E/AndroidRuntime( 326): Uncaught handler: thread main exiting due to uncaught exception Sep 25 17:54:37 E/AndroidRuntime( 326): java.lang.VerifyError: javax.mail.internet.MimeUtility Sep 25 17:54:37 E/AndroidRuntime( 326): at com.sun.mail.imap.protocol.IMAPProtocol.(IMAPProtocol.java:117) Sep 25 17:54:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilkenny_(beer) Sep 25 17:55:27 androidsunrise: scroll up higher in the log to see why the verifier choked. Sep 25 17:55:35 It's usually because the class wasn't found at run time. Sep 25 17:59:18 There is a graphical designor to build android UIs? Sep 25 18:04:01 slux: http://code.google.com/p/droiddraw/ Sep 25 18:04:09 greetings Sep 25 18:04:14 :O Sep 25 18:04:18 thanks ulmen Sep 25 18:04:39 web applet here: http://www.droiddraw.org/ Sep 25 18:04:46 oh nice Sep 25 18:04:57 i'm new of android Sep 25 18:06:25 androidsunrise: the server doesn't seem to like you Sep 25 18:08:56 fadden: hey, how's it going? Sep 25 18:09:16 It goeth. Sep 25 18:09:24 slux, Also.. I think the eclipse plugin has a basic graphical designer. Sep 25 18:09:40 are you sure pawalls ? Sep 25 18:10:11 you mean VE plugin? it isn't only for swing? Sep 25 18:10:19 slux, Have you tried installing the android eclipse plugin and opening a layout file? Sep 25 18:10:29 umm yes Sep 25 18:10:39 layout file = the xml? Sep 25 18:10:41 yeah, there's a basic layout editor in the plugin Sep 25 18:10:42 yes Sep 25 18:10:48 i try... Sep 25 18:10:52 And then click the "Layout" tab. Sep 25 18:11:02 okay :D thanks Sep 25 18:11:14 i have installed yesterday the sdk :p Sep 25 18:11:48 umm the main.xml is opened by eclipse as a simple text file :( Sep 25 18:12:55 slux: at the bottom of the editor window is two tabs. one says 'layout' Sep 25 18:13:57 umm no. i cant see anything nameb 'layout' Sep 25 18:14:09 btw this is sure a my fault Sep 25 18:14:13 slux, What version of eclipse do you have installed? Sep 25 18:14:17 europa Sep 25 18:14:20 umm Sep 25 18:14:27 3.3.1.1 Sep 25 18:14:42 i'm away.. bye Sep 25 18:32:35 Can anyone confirm if receiving notifications of SMS messages is formally supported in 1.0? Sep 25 18:34:28 it will provide a notification in the drop down box, yes Sep 25 18:34:49 tomgibara: You mean rigging apps up to read SMS messages? Sep 25 18:34:58 What I mean is programatically accessible notification Sep 25 18:35:01 ttuttle: yes Sep 25 18:35:15 tomgibara: Ah, I'm not sure. Sep 25 18:36:04 [offtopic] Wow, why would anyone pay AT&T $3/month for access to IMDb through an app when you can get Opera Mini and use it for free? Sep 25 18:39:28 ttuttle: because they dont know any better Sep 25 18:40:40 jeffb: n00bs Sep 25 18:40:42 A?FDFJVDA?NFBKJN Sep 25 18:40:54 I mean, what a perfectly solid business model! Carriers are your friends! All hail T-Mobile! Sep 25 18:40:58 [bzzzzzert] Sep 25 18:48:46 On the subject of receiving SMSs, the old intents still work, but all public references to them and all helper classes are gone Sep 25 18:49:25 This sort of stuff is _really_ unhelpful when developers are being encouraged to get apps ready for the forthcoming marketplace Sep 25 18:51:08 is creating a tethering app a posibility for the HTC dream? or does the design make that impossible/difficult? Sep 25 18:52:12 is it allowed by the carrier i think is the better question Sep 25 18:53:15 What happens in the marketplace when a published application violates the terms of service of one carrier but not others? Sep 25 18:54:14 i have no idea :P Sep 25 18:54:46 jeffb: I bet no one has a clue, it will get worked out as it goes along I guess Sep 25 18:55:38 probably true Sep 25 19:00:44 anyone know if other plans, like 1 year plans, are available Sep 25 19:06:30 nope Sep 25 19:06:36 2 years or no contract Sep 25 19:09:08 slicslak: from what Tmobile has said they don't care if you tether. as long as it isn't insane Sep 25 19:09:15 or that "everyone" tethers. Sep 25 19:09:24 has android been frozen for the Oct 22 release, or can we expect improvements over the version seen in the emulator Sep 25 19:09:40 so probably the way writing an app is going to work, is you wouldn't want to put it in the app market Sep 25 19:10:03 and WildCaterpillar afaik it has been frozen... and 1.0 is what you should see on phones, with maybe very few changes. Sep 25 19:10:12 but i am not an authority on that again so i could be wrong. Sep 25 19:11:07 anyone have knowledge on resetting the phone to factory defaults? it doesn't seem like you can do this with the emulator Sep 25 19:11:32 i want to know: 1) is it easy 2) do you lose anything 3) is this the best way to support multiple gmail accounts Sep 25 19:12:29 Dougie187: sure, i expect that the sdk has been frozen, but what about the functionality and apps? Sep 25 19:13:16 im not sure on that. Sep 25 19:13:21 i would assume apps are frozen Sep 25 19:13:32 well, for the most part again. Sep 25 19:13:39 but it depends what you mean by functionality. Sep 25 19:14:04 WildCaterpillar: What do you mean by #2? Sep 25 19:14:24 Afaik, everything in the phone is stored online, so you shouldn't really lose anything as it would all sync once you signed in again. Sep 25 19:14:27 essentially, will there be any downside to resetting to factory defaults, multiple times Sep 25 19:14:41 WildCaterpillar: No. I've done it. You might need to re-download apps. Sep 25 19:14:49 WildCaterpillar: Everything resyncs wonderfully. Sep 25 19:14:54 From the flavour of the announcements, I'm guessing that changes are going to be muted in the short term as Google gears up for releasing the code, then after that we can expect steady improvements to the platform Sep 25 19:15:22 i agree with tomgibara. Sep 25 19:15:30 :) Sep 25 19:15:37 i don't know how easy it will be, but i am really going to try to get multiple users going...via the unlock screen Sep 25 19:15:51 ttuttle: Are applications from the marketplace tied to the user, the phone or to the combination of both? Sep 25 19:16:22 tomgibara: I do not know. Sep 25 19:16:25 tomgibara: I hope the user. Sep 25 19:16:31 I hope not :) Sep 25 19:16:39 my guess is the store is a simple .apk download. they aren't ready to charge $ and probably dont have an encryption scheme in place Sep 25 19:16:41 tomgibara: Why not? Then you could move the apps to a new phone. Sep 25 19:16:41 Or at least, not in all cases Sep 25 19:16:52 tomgibara: Oh, I think you should be able to transfer them. Sep 25 19:16:55 this isnt the iPhone, i'm hoping they're not locked at all Sep 25 19:17:02 Dougie187, right. so i just have to wait for someone to code a tethering app then (or code one myself). Sep 25 19:17:23 slicslak: afaik yes. i doubt google is going to give a tethering app out. Sep 25 19:17:24 The problem is that some apps may use significant server-side resource, so there may be a cost to developers if the user puts them onto more than one phone Sep 25 19:17:47 If the developer can only charge that user once, that might be tricky Sep 25 19:17:49 tomgibara: but whats the point of that? aren't you locked into a user account once you log into a phone. Sep 25 19:18:18 you would have to lock in your account on two phones that way. Sep 25 19:18:20 tomgibara: the app could generate a machine ID to send along withthe username Sep 25 19:19:07 I don't users to be curtailed in what they do with apps, but as a developer I need to know the ground rules so that I don't design apps (personally, or for clients) that are unsustainable Sep 25 19:19:15 hmm Sep 25 19:19:16 http://support.t-mobile.com/knowbase/root/public/tm30235.pdf Sep 25 19:19:34 lol. Sep 25 19:22:33 benley: nice! Sep 25 19:22:39 benley: where's you find that? Sep 25 19:22:42 *where'd Sep 25 19:23:06 creative searching on support.t-mobile.com :) Sep 25 19:23:07 "If you are new.. simply call Customer Care from your landline phone" Sep 25 19:23:51 he found it on... The Internet(tm) Sep 25 19:24:05 donomo: heh Sep 25 19:24:06 benley: well done sir Sep 25 19:24:22 i cant wait to run the myFaves application. not! Sep 25 19:24:54 lol Sep 25 19:24:55 quick access to all of your biffles! Sep 25 19:25:28 oh strange, the volume keys are different from the emulator Sep 25 19:25:58 the volume keys are on the left in the emulator, whereas they are on the right in PDF Sep 25 19:26:18 the emulator is a weird representation of the device Sep 25 19:26:27 huh? they're left in the pdf Sep 25 19:26:30 No, they're on the left in the PDF. Sep 25 19:26:36 They are on the left on real ones too. Sep 25 19:26:37 on the physical device, they're on the left Sep 25 19:26:53 shutter release for the camera is on the right Sep 25 19:28:08 so when is the emulator going to be updated to match the Real Thing Sep 25 19:29:19 WildCaterpillar: the emulator is its own thing. it isnt supposed to be exactly any one phone Sep 25 19:30:12 i hope details about getting an app in the store are available some time before launch Sep 25 19:30:54 what happens if i browse to an html page with Install ? i guess i could just try it. Sep 25 19:31:13 donomo: i see. thanks Sep 25 19:32:47 donomo: it will download it and then tell you that it can not install it for security reasons (on the emulator, no idea on the real phone) Sep 25 19:32:56 ulmen: that's not good. Sep 25 19:33:08 Hold on... Sep 25 19:33:27 that's just some current restriction, not some policy that will never change. Sep 25 19:33:34 ulmen: interesting. Sep 25 19:34:02 settings> application> unknown sources Sep 25 19:34:15 tick the box to allow it Sep 25 19:34:28 and then ack the dialog that pops up telling you It's Unsafe Sep 25 19:34:37 jeffb: Ah, I wasn't sure if that setting shipped. Sep 25 19:34:55 i would imagine so :P Sep 25 19:35:01 jeffb: heh Sep 25 19:35:43 im not running an engineering build on my device currently, so i think it's safe to say it'll be in the shipping user build Sep 25 19:36:34 does that feature exist in the emulator? Sep 25 19:36:35 jeffb: Yay. Sep 25 19:36:44 jeffb: I'm downloading it to check. Sep 25 19:36:57 jeffb: slow wifi, so it'll take about 10 minutes. Sep 25 19:37:03 aye Sep 25 19:37:27 Whoa! Sep 25 19:37:47 What idiot at T-Mo forgot to buy tmobileg1.com? Sep 25 19:38:07 im not seeing it with Menu -> More -> Settings -> (big list of options) Sep 25 19:38:52 RyeBrye: hey Sep 25 19:39:07 ttuttle: squat on that shit Sep 25 19:39:20 yakischloba: It's already taken. Sep 25 19:39:26 oh haha. someone else got it? Sep 25 19:39:28 yakischloba: Just a guy with a few ads and a link to the real site. Sep 25 19:39:29 yakischloba: yep Sep 25 19:39:32 rofl Sep 25 19:39:38 im sure their trademark lawyers are on it Sep 25 19:39:45 yakischloba: besides, I'd like to not ruin my chances of working for Google again. Sep 25 19:39:59 good call. Sep 25 19:40:11 yakischloba: yep Sep 25 19:40:21 yakischloba: same reason I didn't leak pics of the G1 to #android. Sep 25 19:40:25 yakischloba: ;-) Sep 25 19:40:30 I have no such concerns - no way in hell they'd hire me anyway! ;) Sep 25 19:40:36 yakischloba: :( Sep 25 19:40:51 haha Sep 25 19:40:59 never say never :P Sep 25 19:41:26 aren't your hiring folks all hellbent on degrees? One of you guys was just talking about that this morning or yesterday Sep 25 19:42:10 having a degree is important, yes Sep 25 19:42:13 i know folks that work at google without a degree. Sep 25 19:42:18 ditto Sep 25 19:42:27 i work with people all day long who do not have a degree Sep 25 19:42:29 most of them clean the toilets, tho ;P (joking) Sep 25 19:42:39 jeffb: *gasp* Sep 25 19:42:49 they are probably more exceptional and driven individuals than myself ;) Sep 25 19:45:08 Is there a central "phone settings" application to which I can export my preferences activity? Sep 25 19:47:16 open the app drawer and hit settings Sep 25 19:47:25 its a settings app Sep 25 19:47:29 Is putting a filter for the activity with CATEGORY_PREFERENCE enough? Sep 25 19:47:47 There is no settings app in the app drawer of the emulator Sep 25 19:48:15 theres the settings thing, but it doesnt work in the sdk Sep 25 19:48:16 afaik Sep 25 19:48:22 menu at the home screen and hit settings then Sep 25 19:48:22 on the home screen push menu Sep 25 19:48:25 i see Sep 25 19:48:34 That's right, and it hasn't worked since it appeared there :( Sep 25 19:48:39 yup Sep 25 19:48:43 its because its not a real phone. Sep 25 19:49:07 The emulator still needs to provide enough of the phone experience to make it meaningful to develop on Sep 25 19:50:14 Something as basic as 'publishing your settings' is something that really needs to be at least documented Sep 25 19:52:32 I'm a huge fan of android, and I appreciate there are many, many things vying for the attention of its developers Sep 25 19:52:44 but telling us how the settings will work is such basic information there's not much of an excuse Sep 25 19:53:16 I wonder what it takes to port Route64 to android... its a commodore 64 emulator written in java Sep 25 19:53:24 tons of games available online :) Sep 25 19:57:05 * ttuttle launches emulator. Sep 25 19:57:06 does lockwood hang out here? he could probably answer that Sep 25 19:57:32 lesceil: Java can probably run unmodified. Sep 25 19:58:26 benley: yes Sep 25 19:59:46 ttuttle: what about sound and graphics though... Sep 25 20:02:17 lescil: I'm sure the SID chip emulation could be connected to the audio system Sep 25 20:02:39 lesceil: Graphics shouldn't be an issue either once you've got your own surface to draw on. Sep 25 20:03:12 lesceil: You'll probably end up *removing* a bunch of code for graphics.. depending on what java graphics model they use Sep 25 20:03:31 (i'm not familiar with the specific emulator, but I do know C64/Amigas :) Sep 25 20:03:59 Not familiar with the route64 emulator yet either, I am browsing the cvs repository right now... Sep 25 20:04:19 great, then i can get Crazy Taxi working :) Sep 25 20:04:53 haha Sep 25 20:04:57 i had that for dreamcast Sep 25 20:05:00 best game ever Sep 25 20:05:09 :) Sep 25 20:07:26 My favourite of all times was Elite Sep 25 20:07:39 but that might require a bigger screen than the phone has :) Sep 25 20:08:58 lol Sep 25 20:09:01 yeah :) Sep 25 20:09:23 http://route64.sourceforge.net/ click on webstart, this is awesome Sep 25 20:09:31 I did not know that webstart stuff by now works Sep 25 20:11:44 Just out of curiosity... does AOP work with Dalvik? I'm guessing none of the existing runtime AOP weavers that work by modifying the classloader will work - but what about AspectJ's compile-time weaving? Sep 25 20:37:14 http://blog.ulfw.com/2008/09/android-why-art-thou/ <- a true and honest post. Sep 25 20:42:10 it is a really ugly device, let's just say it :) Sep 25 20:43:09 It is ;) Sep 25 20:43:35 But it is horrable how the blogs misinterpreted that posting. Sep 25 20:44:03 I don't know if I'd say its ugly.. its just not stylish Sep 25 20:44:24 Well let me say it different. It is out dated. Sep 25 20:44:57 it is ugly :) Sep 25 20:45:14 It is not what I expect from the design of a first device that should convince the consumers of a new platform. Sep 25 20:45:40 at least its not gaudy Sep 25 20:45:49 it's rather plain and bland than flashy Sep 25 20:45:54 and blinged out Sep 25 20:45:55 with spinners Sep 25 20:46:45 apples industrial design people are really good at making plain yet flashy stuff Sep 25 20:46:54 htc, not so much Sep 25 20:47:17 Why do you think the device is ugly? Sep 25 20:47:34 I think it's reminiscient of the Google home page. Sep 25 20:47:39 sparse, functional, clean. Sep 25 20:47:44 Well but compare it to the HTC TOuch HD.. so you cant say that HTC is not able of producing nice hardware. Sep 25 20:47:52 most people think it is ugly, i think :) Sep 25 20:47:52 which is true, google has some very plain and boring interfaces everywhere Sep 25 20:47:55 look at gmail Sep 25 20:48:00 but it works for them Sep 25 20:48:04 haha Sep 25 20:48:21 Well I wouldnt use Gmail :-) So I cant talk about that. Sep 25 20:48:23 my gf doesnt even want one anymore. she was really excited about it for a long time Sep 25 20:48:32 and now that she's seen the real device, she's not interested Sep 25 20:48:36 it's interesting you see it as plain and boring. I think it's a direct response to the overproduced look of most other things, software included. Sep 25 20:48:59 but especially most websites. Sep 25 20:49:00 well minimalist can be done well, like I mentioned, apple does an excellent job Sep 25 20:49:01 Incandenzian: i don't think it is that at all. i think it is an underperforming design from a company capable of a lot more. Sep 25 20:49:08 but google and htc apparently fail it, time and again Sep 25 20:49:16 underperforming? Sep 25 20:49:17 Incandenzian: This is no minimalistic design... it is ugly design. ;) Sep 25 20:49:22 looks fine to me Sep 25 20:49:22 what would you propose? Sep 25 20:49:27 Minimalistic is the Macbook Pro. Sep 25 20:49:31 Incandenzian: any number of HTC's existing devices of late. Sep 25 20:49:42 the HTC Touch Diamond, for example, is sexy as hell Sep 25 20:50:17 but as the above post claims, the G1 is an old design. That's probably wy it looks so old. Sep 25 20:50:18 well I don't see ugly with the phone, because there isn't much to see. It's very plain Sep 25 20:50:20 and minimalist Sep 25 20:50:22 eww. Sep 25 20:50:24 I just had a look at the diamond. Sep 25 20:50:53 I guess I should just state for the sake of clarity: I prefer plain and minimal. Sep 25 20:51:47 Well after that we could talk about the look of the Android UI :D Sep 25 20:51:53 I'm curious when there will be a range of devices Sep 25 20:52:28 Incandenzian: the keyboard is probably the ugliest part of the device, though. Sep 25 20:52:33 it looks cheap Sep 25 20:52:50 i bet it doesnt even feel very good the way the keys are shaped Sep 25 20:53:12 the buttons on the front are also really cheap looking. hideous design. Sep 25 20:53:40 <_avatar> the qwerty buttons feel better than you'd expect Sep 25 20:53:48 aesthetics are a big part of consumer purchases in the US. this is a bad move ;) Sep 25 20:53:57 We'll see. Sep 25 20:54:26 yeah, really they should have come out with one fancy "uberphone" and then release cheaper variants later Sep 25 20:54:35 like chevy w/ corvette for example Sep 25 20:54:50 Thats the point. I dont know we will see. Sep 25 20:55:00 all other debate aside, this is Google's first real foray into the mobile device market. Even pros misstep here and there. Sep 25 20:55:17 which, for the record, is not in fact what I think of the Android. I absolutely love it. Sep 25 20:55:20 this wasn't google's design, though. as i see it, this is htc's failure. Sep 25 20:55:32 Unfortunately I don't think I can a) afford it, and b) get it through Verizon. Sep 25 20:55:50 luckily for me, my sprint contract expired in july :) Sep 25 20:55:53 whats odd is HTC makes generally sexy phones. the G1 looks like a 2005 design Sep 25 20:55:55 i'm still gonna buy the damn thing, of course. Sep 25 20:56:17 i just dont think it's gonna catch on fire with consumers. we'll see how the features stack up though. i havent used one yet :) Sep 25 20:56:39 <_avatar> for what its worth, having used the device, i can tell you that alhtough its not the prettiest, its very solid and constructed well. Sep 25 20:56:42 I don't see it as anyone's failure, esp. not HTC, as ultimately it was Google's choice on which hardware to mate with their software. They had a hand in choosing the physical device. Sep 25 20:56:43 Incandenzian: heh, the counterpoint there being apple's foray into the mobile market with the iphone. Sep 25 20:56:54 The Android OS design reminds me of Gnome (GTK) widgets. Especially the music player and the buttons. Sep 25 20:57:04 _avatar, tell me more! Sep 25 20:57:06 all i can say is that in my circle of geek friends, no one is impressed. i'm the only one who is even going to buy it. Sep 25 20:57:28 I kind of assumed from the youtube videos that it was well-constructed, I'm glad you have first-hand experience. Sep 25 20:58:28 i'm still excited for this thing to launch Sep 25 20:58:44 and if all we get out of google is 1 functioanl device and an open source stack, it is a great victory for all :) Sep 25 20:58:52 i don't care how much money HTC, T-Mobile, or Google lose ;) Sep 25 20:59:25 hear hear! Sep 25 20:59:34 So the most important thing will be the open source stack. And how open it will be. Sep 25 20:59:36 <[mippin|rocks]> Yeah, whats comming will only get better :) Sep 25 20:59:58 of course that's a short-sighted view, i'm just saying that ultimately this device doesn't _need_ to succeed with consumers. Sep 25 21:00:09 I'm worried a little, someone said that t-mobile won't be allowing voip Sep 25 21:00:16 I hope they mean no voip on the data service Sep 25 21:00:23 but that they don't care on the wifi side of things Sep 25 21:00:41 it would be great to be able to register your voip extension with your android phone Sep 25 21:00:45 what i'm most excite dabout it is an app market starting up independent of google's Sep 25 21:01:09 an all open source one ;) Sep 25 21:01:16 so you can make your phone truly free Sep 25 21:03:10 it would be cool to see a pure ip phone running android Sep 25 21:03:19 free from the stupid cellular network mafia Sep 25 21:03:27 obviously wifi only Sep 25 21:04:10 tmccrary, google will release the source, there is nothing stopping clever developers from implementing a SIP stack Sep 25 21:04:34 there already libraries too, so it may even be fairly simple Sep 25 21:04:46 JAIN, etc Sep 25 21:04:51 tmccrary, indeed, I'm thinking sofia-sip + telepathy = happiness Sep 25 21:07:43 I wonder how openmoko will figure into the market, now that Android is coming out. Sep 25 21:08:49 I sorta feel bad for the openmoko guys...great hardware, platform and all...but it's hard to get adoption without major corporate backing Sep 25 21:09:10 they port the android-stack and have the ultimate solution =) Sep 25 21:10:12 except relatively few people buy unsubsidised hardware... Sep 25 21:10:38 Well I would buy this hardware if I'm not forced to a contract. Sep 25 21:10:54 Even more if I'm not forced to a 2 years contract. Sep 25 21:11:09 anno^da_, agreed, the $400 price to buy it outright sounds quite reasonable Sep 25 21:11:11 i'm never going to buy _any_ subsidised hardware again Sep 25 21:11:30 except we're not quite representative of the public Sep 25 21:11:42 haha that's definetly a point. :) Sep 25 21:11:58 I wouldnt call us normal consumers in that area. Sep 25 21:12:26 buying phones outright in europe is pretty normal Sep 25 21:13:44 davidw, I've seen many europe plans that have the same contract scheme that is in the US Sep 25 21:14:02 yeah, but it's much more common to simply buy a phone Sep 25 21:14:03 davidw, and in my opinion, the prices are even cheaper than in the US for the hardware cost Sep 25 21:14:28 agreed....cause there is a lot more people that bounce from one network to the other Sep 25 21:15:25 i already have a 2 year contract with t-mobile, and now if i want to biy G1, i need another contract?? Sep 25 21:16:20 amjad-tss, most likely they'll let you renew your contract, but you may have to pay a bit more for the phone if you don't qualify for an upgrade Sep 25 21:17:15 I don't know t-mobile's policies on that though...a bit more can be anywhere from like $50 to full price of the phone... Sep 25 21:25:44 http://muxtape.com/ <- this letter pisses me off. I hate the big major labels now even more. Sep 25 21:29:17 honestly, i think google did the right thing going with the dream instead of the touch pro. Sep 25 21:29:26 it looks much more well built and has more features for less money. Sep 25 21:30:08 if they had gone with the touch pro or the HD more people would've been upset. they still picked a bad handset to launch, and i'm not sure that if they follow up with the Touch Pro people will be happier. Sep 25 21:31:19 Android on the Touch Pro would be wonderful. :) Sep 25 21:31:47 is that a UCB reference? :) Sep 25 21:32:06 unix_lappy: Why would have people been unhappy with the Touch HD ? Sep 25 21:32:35 AttractiveApe: smaller screen and less sturdy for a better looking design? Sep 25 21:32:43 AttractiveApe: doesnt ship with a 3.5mm jack either. Sep 25 21:32:47 It has 3,5mm jack, 2 cameras, higher resolution display and all the othe features we know from the Dream. Sep 25 21:32:49 anno^da_: no wifi. Sep 25 21:32:52 lol Sep 25 21:32:56 it has wifi Sep 25 21:33:09 The touch pro has wifi. Sep 25 21:33:12 anno^da_: the HD? and no keyboard. Sep 25 21:33:20 no 3.5mm jack is annoying. I have the adapter though. Sep 25 21:33:25 http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=64796 Sep 25 21:33:33 Touch HD Sep 25 21:33:35 And the dream doesn't look sturdy it all Sep 25 21:33:44 at* Sep 25 21:33:46 Wifi, GPS, BT, UMTS etc Sep 25 21:34:04 it's sturdy. Sep 25 21:34:07 :D Sep 25 21:34:10 I only know about the cdma touch pro. Sep 25 21:34:10 ah, yea the HD would've been a good ipod competitor then. Sep 25 21:34:28 possibly half the price of it is for the windows licence =) Sep 25 21:34:32 iphone. but i think for the initial release the gizmodo and engadget reading types would've been pissed. Sep 25 21:34:49 touch HD would've been more expensive. Sep 25 21:36:46 Thats a point. But well the iPhone does it for 199. So there must be a possibility to get it out for that price. Sep 25 21:37:11 once it's released as an open platform i wonder how long before you'll see drivers for the HD out. Sep 25 21:37:37 iphone for 199 is subsidised, or not? Sep 25 21:37:55 ulmen: final cost of the iphone is significantly more than the G1 Sep 25 21:38:28 i do think so, yes Sep 25 21:39:03 unix_lappy: how so? monthly cost? Sep 25 21:40:50 can somebody explain me this quote from Mark Murphy's book, "If you need to configure the AlertDialog beyond what the builder allows, Sep 25 21:40:50 instead of calling show(), call create() to get the partially-built AlertDialog Sep 25 21:40:50 instance, configure it the rest of the way, then call one of the flavors of Sep 25 21:40:50 show() on the AlertDialog itself." Sep 25 21:42:15 what do you need explained? Sep 25 21:42:26 summatusmentis: yea. Sep 25 21:42:56 unix_lappy: min TMob personal plan is $40, internet is $35, SMS is $10 Sep 25 21:43:05 how is that any less than the iPhone plan? Sep 25 21:43:09 builder allows to implement all the methods, what can be done beyond that? Sep 25 21:44:06 summatusmentis: 40 for base voice, 35 for unlimited data and SMS. Sep 25 21:44:18 api docs say I can use geo to fake location data, but it's not in my tools folder. Sep 25 21:44:31 unix, that's still $75 Sep 25 21:44:42 isn't iPhone plan $70/ Sep 25 21:45:33 my iphone is 30 for internet, 20 for text, 40 for minimum mins plan Sep 25 21:46:14 dipen: well do realize that book is probably out of date Sep 25 21:47:06 jeffb: you still using it? (iphone) Sep 25 21:47:25 it makes a good ipod. Sep 25 21:47:34 i use it for personal stuff Sep 25 21:48:20 i really do not like the iphone, ive had a ton of issues with it Sep 25 21:48:35 that said, i did start using android 3 or so months before i got an iphone Sep 25 21:48:44 jasta, yes I do know that. Sep 25 21:48:44 so it may be me being used to the dream/android as an os Sep 25 21:49:58 * unix_lappy has been back and forth on the purchase. Sep 25 21:50:11 jeffb: why'd you buy an iphone after using android? Sep 25 21:50:37 jasta: i needed to replace my peronal palm treo immediately Sep 25 21:51:04 and i wanted a new ipod ;) Sep 25 21:51:04 I guess i just need someone to tell me that HTC wont be the only device that will run android for quite a while with Tmobile. Sep 25 21:51:28 so I know to either wait it out a go and get the G1. Sep 25 21:51:29 unix_lappy: i dont think anyone will be able to tell you that. Sep 25 21:51:52 jasta: well, of course not, there's money involved. Sep 25 21:51:57 my suggestion is to just get a better job and then the $200 early termination fees will seem small :) Sep 25 21:52:07 and $200 device purchase Sep 25 21:52:44 haha Sep 25 21:52:49 good plan Sep 25 21:53:04 i wasn't joking. Sep 25 21:53:05 :) Sep 25 21:53:33 why not pay $400 for the g1 and use your old contract with it? Sep 25 21:53:34 is the android developer challenge going to continue or it will terminate with release of g1 or other phones?? Sep 25 21:53:41 a $50K+/yr salary should do pretty good for that. you can burn through $400 easy ;) Sep 25 21:54:05 amjad-tss: the ADC I is long over. ADC II will be announced in Q4. Sep 25 21:54:05 ulmen: i'm looking to get a new contract. Sep 25 21:54:09 I just watched the TouchFLO 3D demo for the Touch Pro. Sep 25 21:54:36 my gawd, it's basically a straight ape of the iPhone, down to the color scheme of the layout. not to mention the animations. Sep 25 21:55:28 unix_lappy: get any contract that fits your needs best, sell the subsidised hardware =) Sep 25 21:55:59 i have no idea if there is a market for such things in the us tho Sep 25 21:56:05 ulmen: not all carriers are compatible, so that's a pretty stupid strategy Sep 25 21:56:28 what jasta said, the G1 wont be compatible with ANY other carrier's 3G network. Sep 25 21:56:35 in the US, AT&T won't even support the G1's 3G capabilities. No other carrier will work at all even. Sep 25 21:56:37 so you're essentially hard locked. Sep 25 21:56:44 i'm happy this is not a case in europe ;) Sep 25 21:57:10 unix_lappy: really, i was being serious. go find yourself a carrier and just burn through $400 :) Sep 25 21:57:31 jasta: could care less about the carrier. tmobile has good coverage here. Sep 25 21:57:38 i will probably buy the G1 and then also the next Android phone to come after that. maybe even the next one after that too :P Sep 25 21:57:57 set aside a good chunk of change to dev/test android phones ;P Sep 25 21:58:32 do i look like I have brin / page FU money lying around? Sep 25 21:58:43 haha Sep 25 21:58:58 we're talking like a thousand dollars. Sep 25 21:59:17 hell, i bet most people in that room couldnt afford the skates those guys were sporting. Sep 25 21:59:26 lol Sep 25 21:59:52 'look we're excetric billionaires on inline skates!' Sep 25 22:00:48 * donomo wishes he were excentric Sep 25 22:01:12 * ulmen wishes he were a billionaire on inline skates Sep 25 22:02:07 i just whois'd unix_lappy and it's in ##finance and #startups. are you sure you dont have money lying around? :) Sep 25 22:02:16 and he's in* Sep 25 22:03:26 jasta, what is the difference in creating dialog box using create()? Sep 25 22:03:30 lol Sep 25 22:03:33 is t-mobile's 3G really on a different frequency set than at&t's? Sep 25 22:03:39 dipen: i don't know, read the docs. and throw out that useless book. Sep 25 22:05:14 rabelais: yes. the G1 supports UMTS 1700/2100 (1700 being T-Mobile US), AT&T uses 1900 I think. Sep 25 22:05:39 bloody heck...it's really a 1700/2100 phone? Sep 25 22:05:46 sigh Sep 25 22:05:56 and yes, at&t is 850/1900 Sep 25 22:06:05 g1 is like 6-band Sep 25 22:06:10 but only 2 of them are 3g bands Sep 25 22:06:40 thanks jasta. Sep 25 22:08:18 sigh...would it have killed them to make it compatible with at&t's as well? Sep 25 22:09:05 there's no reason htc can't make another variant that works with every other carrier on earth Sep 25 22:09:34 I'm hoping that happens Sep 25 22:10:14 well, I suppose I can't actually say that. I have absolutely no idea what the contract is between tmobile and htc. Sep 25 22:10:57 well, if not htc, potentially some other manufacturer... Sep 25 22:11:41 benley: the question isnt if, but when. Sep 25 22:11:49 the main markets are on 2100, so t-mobile won't need another version for example for europe Sep 25 22:12:07 are pissed off nerds going to get the news the second week of november or january. Sep 25 22:12:22 i wonder if iphone will make it's software open also?? Sep 25 22:12:39 amjad-tss: have you read the fake steve jobs archives lately? Sep 25 22:12:39 hah Sep 25 22:12:58 nice specs list here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Mobile_G1 Sep 25 22:13:46 it's weird to start seeing these things without serial numbers engraved all over them Sep 25 22:14:02 one thing i have noticed is a hug demand for android developers now that G1 is out Sep 25 22:14:09 err hughe Sep 25 22:14:13 noone has demanded to hug me yet :( Sep 25 22:14:18 FREE HUGS FOR ANDROID DEVS Sep 25 22:14:27 * Cedric2 needs a hug Sep 25 22:14:28 oh oh me me me Sep 25 22:14:43 * unix_lappy thinks we need an android dev lolcat. Sep 25 22:15:45 i agree there is a hughe hug demand for android developers Sep 25 22:16:40 http://mine.icanhascheezburger.com/view.aspx?ciid=2108971 (lame i know) Sep 25 22:17:04 unix_lappy: all I'll say is it's been done, and it's hilarious Sep 25 22:18:38 interesting, hardware supports a2dp, android doesn't. Sep 25 22:18:45 so we could see an OTA upgrade to add that later Sep 25 22:18:46 thats nice Sep 25 22:19:14 the bluetooth hardware supports all sorts of stuff Sep 25 22:19:20 things like a2dp just weren't ready for 1.0 Sep 25 22:19:43 its probably a bluecore chip that can do anything once the software is ready for it Sep 25 22:20:16 http://mine.icanhascheezburger.com/view.aspx?ciid=2109001 Sep 25 22:20:26 i was disappointed by no a2dp :( Sep 25 22:21:06 a2dp is such a miserable standard though Sep 25 22:21:11 hey, if i buy the g1 will i be able to update to android 2.0 when it comes out? or will i be stuck with 1.x? Sep 25 22:21:20 Ark1: nobody knows Sep 25 22:23:07 arg, im just a little worried about buying 1st gen(i no HTC makes good phones so it not the hardware that is first gen), but i dont want to be stuck in one place like symbian Sep 25 22:23:20 that is why my advice is so important. Sep 25 22:23:37 get a high paying job and then just waste tons of money on the first few iterations :) Sep 25 22:23:57 Ark1: I suspect that g1 devices will get at least _some_ upgrades before they're left in the dust by software Sep 25 22:24:02 jasta: you work for google ?? Sep 25 22:24:13 why would you think that? Sep 25 22:24:22 high paying job comment :) Sep 25 22:24:30 there are other high paying jobs than those at google Sep 25 22:24:35 quite a lot of them, even. Sep 25 22:24:42 benley: keep in mind that part of the idea of an open system is that devices _don't_ get left in the dust Sep 25 22:24:56 gdsx: well, even ubuntu has minimum requirements Sep 25 22:25:01 benley: not necessarily that that will or won't happen -- I can't predict the future -- but that's part of the idea Sep 25 22:25:19 benley: but Ubuntu sucks in certain ways (no offense, you all) Sep 25 22:25:23 gdsx: I can't predict how long the initial hardware will be fully supported by the software upgrade cycle Sep 25 22:25:30 android also sucks in certain ways :) Sep 25 22:25:31 benley: I run Debian on my Duron 700 machine and it's still pretty snappy Sep 25 22:25:59 i run yellow dog linux on my ps3 and it does not support youtube Sep 25 22:26:35 amjad-tss: YDL sucks, I'm sorry. (I've used the YDL/PS3 combination and I wanted to claw my eyes out) Sep 25 22:28:47 benley: I guess my point is just that Ubuntu is the Vista of Linux distributions Sep 25 22:29:10 gdsx: *shrug* perhaps ubuntu isn't a great example for comparison then Sep 25 22:29:19 you never ran opensuse, did you? =) Sep 25 22:29:23 ck Sep 25 22:29:25 ick Sep 25 22:29:33 * benley thinks Vista is the Vista of linux distributions Sep 25 22:29:40 You mean to say it's the best of the worst of Linux? Sep 25 22:31:43 benley: everyone I've known who runs not-very-customized Ubuntu has been disappointed with how slow it is Sep 25 22:32:00 slow how? Sep 25 22:32:08 gdsx: it doesn't seem to be any faster or slower than other modern linux distributions in my experience Sep 25 22:33:12 tmccrary: a close friend of mine ran it on her machine, and it was almost constantly in swap. So it'd take forever to switch to/from the workspace with FF running, and at times it would just be unresponsive for O(1 minute) Sep 25 22:33:31 tmccrary: I'm not saying that's the norm, but I've never seen anything like it on any other distro Sep 25 22:33:43 so um, she needed more ram Sep 25 22:33:54 firefox is a pig, big surprise there Sep 25 22:34:05 yeah, sounds like she had 512 MB or less Sep 25 22:34:20 she should have been running XFCe or some distro for underpowered computers Sep 25 22:35:20 tmccrary: possibly, but that's exactly my point. Ubuntu seems less conservative than it should be about the capabilities of the machines it runs on. Certainly, if you want flash and eyecandy, it should be there; I'm just not sure it should be the default Sep 25 22:38:00 Ubuntu provides methods of disabling those eyecandies, and provides xubuntu for lower-powered desktops. Sep 25 22:38:58 this has deviated far far away from the original discussion :-P Sep 25 22:42:00 Ubuntu's great Sep 25 22:46:45 davidw: yes it is Sep 25 23:05:05 why does the search field in code.google.com/android take two submits to get the result. Sep 25 23:52:07 how does a UI app communicate with a service besides AIDL? i (maybe incorrectly) understand if they're part of the same process, there is a lighter weight way to do RPC Sep 25 23:53:36 aidl automagically converts them to direct calls within the same process Sep 25 23:54:14 well lighter weight as far as the work I have to do to make that call :) Sep 25 23:54:30 if AIDL is the only way then i'll go that route Sep 25 23:54:42 android dev question: is there any way to attach contextual data to a notification? Sep 25 23:54:57 it's probably the 'best' approach, yeah Sep 25 23:55:10 ok thx Sep 25 23:55:20 what are you building donomo Sep 25 23:55:36 a background process to transmit current lat/long every so often Sep 25 23:55:45 and a UI to control update frequency, etc. Sep 25 23:56:01 SMS? Sep 25 23:56:08 tcp/ip Sep 25 23:56:10 can we read SMS inbox/outbox? Sep 25 23:56:17 in 1.0? Sep 25 23:56:22 ah ok, then UI<-->Service interaction isn't too frequent Sep 25 23:56:26 content provider? Sep 25 23:56:30 sms inbox/outbox? Sep 25 23:56:39 f00f-: yes that sounds right. Sep 25 23:56:41 android.provider.telephony.Sms? Sep 25 23:56:41 probably, or maybe there's an SMS_SERVICE or whatevs Sep 25 23:56:56 last time i checked it was a CP Sep 25 23:57:06 a CP? Sep 25 23:57:10 oh Sep 25 23:57:15 they killed it in 1.0 Sep 25 23:57:17 apparently Sep 25 23:57:20 no explanation Sep 25 23:57:27 nothing in documentation Sep 25 23:57:35 i bet it was Servicized Sep 25 23:57:41 what does that mean? Sep 25 23:57:48 turned into service? Sep 25 23:57:51 where would taht be located? Sep 25 23:58:16 there's a list of system services somewhere Sep 25 23:58:19 hey guys got a quick question Sep 25 23:58:57 is it possible to intercept the incoming call intent and display my customized screen instead of the default screen? Sep 25 23:59:32 this is wat i added in the manifest Sep 25 23:59:34 i think you can override the app that handles calls chouman82, but you need to define the permissions in the manifest, if it would be possible Sep 25 23:59:49 as for 'chaining' intents, possibly Sep 25 23:59:58 actually f00f, i dont think this is possible in 1.0 Sep 26 00:00:16 really, i thought nearly everything was replaceable Sep 26 00:00:19 so i see that the activity that handles the incoming call is com.android.phone.inComingScreen Sep 26 00:00:22 maybe it's just the dialer app Sep 26 00:00:38 f00f-: the home screen isnt replacable either, iirc. Sep 26 00:00:55 or rather, not without making a new system image, which locked phones certainly can't do Sep 26 00:00:55 oh so i can't replace the incoming call screen then? Sep 26 00:01:05 romain mentioned some concessions they had to make for 1.0 not being as flexible as they originally wanted Sep 26 00:01:12 ok, but romain did say they published the Home source code Sep 26 00:01:12 ah ok Sep 26 00:01:17 chouman82: that is my understanding yes. Sep 26 00:01:33 but i can replace the dialing screen though Sep 26 00:01:39 yes. Sep 26 00:01:48 got it Sep 26 00:01:50 well Sep 26 00:01:53 too bad Sep 26 00:02:00 again, that is my understanding. you might want to find a more authoritative source to ask before you abandon your project Sep 26 00:02:15 well that's just a small part Sep 26 00:02:21 but it would be cool if i can do it Sep 26 00:02:33 we're not abandoning our project don't worry :) Sep 26 00:02:45 but f00f do you know where the list of system services are? Sep 26 00:02:48 located Sep 26 00:03:06 you can find all of the ones you can interact with in Context. Sep 26 00:03:12 getSystemService() documentation will point you to the list, I think. Sep 26 00:03:16 jasta: i would trust your 'understanding' more than some google engineers' 'facts'. :) Sep 26 00:04:04 (nothing against google engineers, im just sayin :) Sep 26 00:04:52 kingkung: what is your project if you dont mind disclosing? Sep 26 00:08:26 we're doing a next-gen address book Sep 26 00:10:35 if you want it to be next gen let me add my own key/value pairs :D Sep 26 00:10:58 huh? Sep 26 00:11:08 windows mobile shows you 87 places you can enter info Sep 26 00:11:15 let me enter info, and mark what type it is Sep 26 00:11:17 and only show those Sep 26 00:11:22 don't show me 85 blank possible entries Sep 26 00:11:26 ah Sep 26 00:11:26 okay Sep 26 00:11:36 but, additionally, if you don't have a key defined that I want, I should be able to create it Sep 26 00:11:36 what customized types would you enter? Sep 26 00:11:40 like for ex. Smells Sep 26 00:11:51 ha Sep 26 00:11:52 sure Sep 26 00:12:00 kingkung minor, but I've had uses for it :D Sep 26 00:12:10 we will think about that :) Sep 26 00:12:16 for ex. if I'm at a buisness event, and I want to put in where we met Sep 26 00:12:22 that's actually very easy to implement Sep 26 00:12:24 oh ic Sep 26 00:12:37 like a Notes field Sep 26 00:12:43 but self-defined Sep 26 00:12:51 right Sep 26 00:12:53 exactly Sep 26 00:13:14 like, think of all the im protocols out there, etc. Sep 26 00:14:16 allow third party apps to contribute info and to access Sep 26 00:14:43 f00f- that too Sep 26 00:14:46 i daresay the platform/default contact provider MUST support it Sep 26 00:15:32 think ldap :P Sep 26 00:19:22 what part of the project directory tree does the .aidl file go? Sep 26 00:23:07 donomo: [unhelpful] inside Sep 26 00:24:26 heehee Sep 26 00:24:51 donomo: in the source tree. Your aidl file should be starting by "package com.foo.project..." it should be in the matching package folder Sep 26 00:26:15 ah ok Sep 26 00:30:32 cool. i made KlassService.aidl and eclipse is running the auto-generator to make KlassService.java Sep 26 00:32:43 writing java in eclipse rockorz really hard :) Sep 26 00:45:21 SanMehat: ping Sep 26 01:32:46 hello Sep 26 01:32:51 csaunders322: hello Sep 26 01:33:13 I'm trying to learn how to use android, and my Hello, Android app will not work. Sep 26 01:33:21 csaunders322: What seems to be the problem? Sep 26 01:33:36 The emulator simply boots up and does not display the text Sep 26 01:33:43 csaunders322: Did you open the app? Sep 26 01:33:53 where do they get placed? Sep 26 01:34:01 csaunders322: In the home screen, hopefully? Sep 26 01:34:10 You might need to adb push your app to the emulator. Sep 26 01:34:17 hmm Sep 26 01:34:40 Honestly I'm not quite familiar with how third-party devs get apps on the device, as I've always been building as part of the OS image ;-) Sep 26 01:35:01 that may be it actually... I hope it is o_O Sep 26 01:35:12 csaunders322: If you can find an .apk, adb push it. Sep 26 01:35:20 Er, adb -e push. Sep 26 01:38:53 ahhh Sep 26 01:38:59 adb install :D Sep 26 01:39:02 Oh, yeah. Sep 26 01:39:09 * ttuttle forgot, adb push expects lax filesystem permissions. Sep 26 01:39:41 I'm quite interested in this platform... at first though, just getting the hello world seemed kinda tricky Sep 26 01:40:07 Yeah, the learning curve is a little high, but it flattens out once you've got the toolchain set up, as it's just Java, except with an awesome API. Sep 26 01:40:19 i am installing eclipse Sep 26 01:40:46 wastrel: A sad but common situation. Sep 26 01:41:01 ttuttle: you prefer not to use an ide? Sep 26 01:41:03 wastrel: Nope. Sep 26 01:41:10 vi and some build scripts Sep 26 01:41:12 wastrel: I hacked on Android for a summer, and never touched an editor except vim. Sep 26 01:41:15 wastrel: Yep! Sep 26 01:41:40 well i would go that route but i am a novice developer and think an ide would be helpful Sep 26 01:41:50 wastrel: Oh, IDEs are helpful. Sep 26 01:42:01 wastrel: But make sure you have an idea of what's going on under the hood. Sep 26 01:42:02 i am sure i will miss vi Sep 26 01:42:05 wastrel: Heh. Sep 26 01:42:09 i hate using GUI editors Sep 26 01:42:15 takes so long to move around the file Sep 26 01:42:16 wastrel: You can always use vi to edit your Java files, and then just use Eclipse for the Android tools. Sep 26 01:42:38 hrm i'd lose the code inspection and function lookup stuff i'm hoping is going to make me less useless Sep 26 01:42:47 Oh, true. Sep 26 01:42:49 I used to hate IDE's as well... but once you get used to how they work, you barely have to move your hands from the keyboard Sep 26 01:43:38 the only complaint I have about eclipse though is the large memory foot-print Sep 26 01:44:03 csaunders322: Yeah. Sep 26 01:44:05 csaunders322: And it takes ages to start. Sep 26 01:44:42 yep Sep 26 01:45:02 where I work we use Eclipse, combine that with tomcat and boom, all your memory is gone :( Sep 26 01:45:50 we have a lot of java developers at work Sep 26 01:45:59 they have 4gb minimum of rams Sep 26 01:46:22 they use eclipse and some use tomcat poor dears Sep 26 01:46:34 wastrel: Ouch. Sep 26 01:46:41 haha! I wish we had that, only have 2 gigs. Which seems like enough, but for an enterprise app its really bad Sep 26 01:47:01 some of them have to run eclipse in emulation heh Sep 26 01:47:06 vmware, eclipse, ie Sep 26 01:47:13 doing web development/testing Sep 26 01:47:20 yeah Sep 26 01:56:52 part Sep 26 02:25:54 Eclipse is pretty awful. Sep 26 02:26:06 I think it also has a tendency toward memory leaks Sep 26 02:26:17 well it is written in java Sep 26 02:26:28 you can be doing nothing with it and it's memory consumption will grow significantly Sep 26 02:26:53 wastrel: it's not so much the software as the memory leaks Sep 26 02:27:09 Eclipse is a pretty good IDE, but the memory leaks are annoying Sep 26 02:27:30 and you can do memory leaks in pretty much any language, sadly. Sep 26 02:34:45 question is how easy is it to write bad java. Sep 26 02:35:01 Eclipse has worked pretty well for me on OSX. I prefer emacs etc but some of the eclipse features have been addictive. Real time savers. I have not noticed Eclipse to be especially slow. My machine has 3gigs of ram which is pretty healthy. I am kind of new to Eclipse though. Sep 26 02:35:53 The easiest way to make a mess in almost any language is start using lots of threads. :-) Sep 26 02:35:58 dmoffett: well i'd wager OS X has better memory management than XP anyday. Sep 26 02:36:31 (and I dont have a preference either way) Sep 26 02:36:34 XP? Shame on you. :-) Sep 26 02:37:11 why not just use winmo if you love windows so much Sep 26 02:37:12 ;] Sep 26 02:39:42 21:35 < unix_infidel> (and I dont have a preference either way) Sep 26 02:41:17 dmoffett: that happened to me on OS X. I only have 2gigs of RAM, I need to upgrade to 4gigs sometime. Sep 26 02:41:43 Adamant: most computers can really only use around 3GB. Sep 26 02:41:56 Yeah I am goiing to add another 3Gigs soon. Sep 26 02:42:14 unix_infidel: it's an x86-64 running Leopard, it should have no problem with it Sep 26 02:42:25 ahh, good times. Sep 26 02:42:30 I have not noticed a slow down with the current app but sometimes on an app I have not touched in while get paged out. Sep 26 02:42:39 I know WinXP is crippled that way on a regular x86 Sep 26 02:42:55 Adamant: desktop? Sep 26 02:43:07 laptop Sep 26 02:43:09 MBP Sep 26 02:43:14 unfortunately 4 gigs is the hard limit Sep 26 02:43:28 I'd love to put in 8 gigs if I could Sep 26 02:44:49 i have 3 gigs Sep 26 02:44:52 on my ubuntu Sep 26 02:45:03 i'd have to enable PAE for more than that or go to 64bit Sep 26 02:45:11 i think this laptop only does 4 total Sep 26 02:45:50 i would put more than 3GB on this thinkpad...but virtual machines cant thread the VM processes to more than one core. Sep 26 02:46:05 so any virtual machine i'd run would be a minimalist one anyway. Sep 26 02:46:42 * gdsx notes that on Linux, a machine with 4 GB can only use ~3.2GB anyway (for a process) Sep 26 02:47:14 and probably ~3.2GB for all processes also (it should work that way, though I haven't thought through it) Sep 26 02:47:51 gdsx: right, most laptops have a 4GB limit (realistically) Sep 26 02:48:06 my wife's is 2 Sep 26 02:48:14 (newer, should've said) Sep 26 02:49:11 what does 3 megapixels translate to in resolution Sep 26 02:51:41 2048x1536 Sep 26 02:51:44 illuminum: about 2048*1546 Sep 26 02:51:48 bah! Sep 26 02:52:40 * benley cheated and just looked at a photo coming off of the phone instead of doing the math Sep 26 02:53:40 apparently, math is for chumps...apparently unix_infidel is a chump. Sep 26 02:53:53 ;-) Sep 26 02:56:02 i just placed an order for amazon and google stock. amazon is going to kill itunes. google is going to kill both apple and microsoft. that's my gut instinct. Sep 26 02:56:34 illuminum: use covestor for putting your money where your mouth is. Sep 26 02:56:40 there's no way companies that play the old paradigm divide-and-conquer proprietary game can save themselves from extinction Sep 26 02:57:27 checking out covestor, first time i've heard of it Sep 26 02:59:08 seriously -- just look at this screenshot: http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/23/amazon-6-million-drm-free-songs-on-t-mobile-g1/ Sep 26 02:59:20 does that not scream "itunes is dead" Sep 26 02:59:43 illuminum: actually no, it doesn't. Sep 26 02:59:50 can you buy itunes songs right from the iphone? Sep 26 02:59:55 yes. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Sep 26 02:59:56 2008