**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Oct 01 02:59:59 2008
Oct 01 03:35:38 <living_sword> what is the max external memory size that android can address ?
Oct 01 03:35:52 <plusminus_> sd-card ?
Oct 01 03:35:59 <plusminus_> 8gb as far as I've heard
Oct 01 03:37:11 <illuminum> what's up with that limitation, don't 16gb microsd cards exist
Oct 01 03:37:16 <living_sword> i wonder if it would take a firmware update to take it to 16 gb ? or is it currently possible ?
Oct 01 03:40:56 <d03boy> too bad it just doesnt have a 16gb hard drive
Oct 01 03:41:07 <wastrel> hard drive bad
Oct 01 03:41:11 <d03boy> why
Oct 01 03:41:16 <illuminum> are you kidding? sd cards > hard drive
Oct 01 03:41:25 <illuminum> you can have 160 gigs if you have 20 sd cards
Oct 01 03:41:26 <wastrel> big, eats power, delicate
Oct 01 03:41:36 <illuminum> plus what wastrel said
Oct 01 03:41:39 <d03boy> illuminum, that is easily the worst argument ever, haha
Oct 01 03:41:43 <plusminus_> illuminum: yeah seems to be raised to 16 gb with a formware-upgrade
Oct 01 03:42:25 <illuminum> well perhaps you can have 1 160 gig sd card once they get up that high and the kernel/fw whatevz supports it ne oniichan?
Oct 01 03:44:42 <Adamant> flash drives are great, but only if they have the right level of capacity.
Oct 01 03:56:21 <plusminus_> anyone got SmsManager.sendDataMessage(....); working ?
Oct 01 04:12:02 <f00f-> curious
Oct 01 04:12:05 <f00f-> what is sendDataMessagE?
Oct 01 04:12:08 <f00f-> sending SMS to a port?
Oct 01 04:37:14 <muthu_> Evolution doesn't seem to have separate mail boxes like Thunderbird.. Any ideas?
Oct 01 04:39:58 <gdsx> muthu_: "stop using evolution?"
Oct 01 04:40:23 <muthu_> ubuntu came with it
Oct 01 04:40:35 <gdsx> muthu_: apt-get --purge remove evolution; apt-get install thunderbird
Oct 01 04:40:41 <muthu_> thought why not try it, instead of downloading thunderbird
Oct 01 04:40:50 <muthu_> gdsx: hehe
Oct 01 04:40:51 * umdk1d3 rolls in
Oct 01 04:40:58 * gdsx stopped using Evolution a long while ago (admittedly, though, I don't know if it got better in the meanwhile)
Oct 01 04:41:05 <muthu_> me too
Oct 01 04:41:45 <muthu_> a single view for all accounts.. hmmm
Oct 01 04:42:04 <gdsx> muthu_: also, according to bugzilla, the TBird folks are _finally_ planning on fixing the modal dialog stuff.  Once that's done, I should be golden
Oct 01 04:43:38 <muthu_> yup, like thunderbird
Oct 01 04:44:12 <muthu_> wonder why ubuntu bundles only firefox and not tbird
Oct 01 04:45:36 <gdsx> muthu_: my first guess is that Evolution is more akin to Outlook (that is, it does calendaring and all that stuff also)
Oct 01 04:46:18 <living_sword> umm... android cannot read more than 8 Gb memory. it doesnt recognise the card of greater cap.
Oct 01 04:46:25 <living_sword> i wonder why then a Google spokesperson said 16 gb microSDHC would work out-of-box
Oct 01 04:48:02 <cbeust_> Some of us are using 16G, we didn't extensively test them, that's all. But they work
Oct 01 04:48:49 <living_sword> thanx for the info
Oct 01 04:56:33 <muthu_> seriously doubt that evolution will lack multiple account view
Oct 01 04:56:42 <muthu_> prolly missing something here..
Oct 01 04:58:11 <muthu_> more than a week productivity is gone, since my fedora failed on me
Oct 01 04:58:30 <muthu_> hehe.. this is fun too
Oct 01 04:58:56 <muthu_> so far ubuntu has crashed once
Oct 01 04:59:05 <muthu_> hope it doesn't happen often
Oct 01 04:59:45 <illuminum> ubuntu sounds like papua new guinea
Oct 01 05:00:10 <muthu_> ubuntu sounds like a chennai slang
Oct 01 05:00:52 <muthu_> its sounds similar to "dubuku"
Oct 01 05:01:18 <muthu_> உபுன்டு
Oct 01 05:02:05 <gambler> ubuntu in english reminds me of a word I cant remember
Oct 01 05:02:14 <gambler> but it conjures the mental image of someone vomiting
Oct 01 05:02:38 <gambler> ive always thought it was a weird name
Oct 01 05:02:40 <muthu_> lol
Oct 01 05:02:52 <muthu_> that's ewwwwbuntu
Oct 01 05:03:47 <gambler> yo SanMehat you around?
Oct 01 05:04:36 <illuminum> it just conjures images of naked pigmies in my mind
Oct 01 05:04:44 <illuminum> beating on drums
Oct 01 05:05:24 <gambler> I cant remember...I think in my primary school that bunt was slang for dry heave ...It was so long ago Ive forgotten
Oct 01 05:12:14 <gambler> this is a bit funny http://lwn.net/Articles/296040/ ...read the 1st comment
Oct 01 05:19:08 <snadge> ubuntu sounds like an african word which means humanity unto others.. or, i am who i am because of who we all are ;)
Oct 01 05:20:49 <snadge> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODQ4WiDsEBQ
Oct 01 05:26:30 <gambler> so Nelson Mandela is a linux user...I wonder if he is a kde or gnome person
Oct 01 05:30:16 <snadge> obviously gnome
Oct 01 05:30:38 <snadge> it is the choice of free software advocates
Oct 01 05:31:10 <gambler> yah i just read on his twitter that hes shitty with the bugs in kde 4.x
Oct 01 05:31:30 <gambler> but im not sure how you can say gnome is more free than kde
Oct 01 05:32:03 <gambler> i thought they were both a mixture of gpl/lgpl code
Oct 01 05:32:17 <snadge> because the toolkit that its chosen.. qt, is dual licensed
Oct 01 05:32:53 <snadge> gpl and something else.. whereas gtk, is lgpl
Oct 01 05:34:06 <snadge> now if gpl was the only license for QT.. it would technically be more free than GTK
Oct 01 05:34:21 <snadge> but it isnt, so it isnt ;)
Oct 01 05:35:45 <snadge> in my books thats almost reason enough alone to boycott kde
Oct 01 05:36:16 <snadge> but i think the more important reason.. is that it sucks
Oct 01 05:36:41 <summatusmentis> ... I don't understand that mentality... how is dual licensing not free? it's available under gpl...
Oct 01 05:36:53 <gambler> summatusmentis, dogma.
Oct 01 05:37:09 <summatusmentis> dogma?
Oct 01 05:37:33 <snadge> qt is only free if you wish to use it to write free software
Oct 01 05:37:48 <snadge> gtk has no such restriction because it uses the lgpl
Oct 01 05:37:59 <snadge> pretty damned simple really ;)
Oct 01 05:38:22 <summatusmentis> so the viral portion of gpl is lost, because of dual licensing
Oct 01 05:38:42 <snadge> thats right, if you're going to use the gpl.. use it properly
Oct 01 05:39:28 <snadge> i also frown on mysql for using this tactic
Oct 01 05:39:35 <snadge> i still use it anyway though
Oct 01 05:39:36 <muthu_> is there a license, which is *totally* free?
Oct 01 05:39:46 <summatusmentis> meh, I feel like it being gpl is good enough... it's available, it's not as though they're not providing source
Oct 01 05:40:05 <muthu_> is android plugin available for netbeans?
Oct 01 05:40:06 <summatusmentis> muthu_: depends on your definition of free I suppose
Oct 01 05:40:22 <muthu_> summatusmentis: free as in free, no strings attached whatsoever
Oct 01 05:40:25 <snadge> good enough maybe .. but when theres a solution (ie gtk) thats less restrictive.. then as far as im concerned, thats even better than good enough
Oct 01 05:40:36 <f00f-> nothing is free in this world
Oct 01 05:40:38 <snadge> aka public domain
Oct 01 05:40:54 <muthu_> f00f-: air is free
Oct 01 05:40:56 <muthu_> hehe
Oct 01 05:41:02 <summatusmentis> muthu_: some would argue a bsd license is 'free' because you can do whatever youw ant
Oct 01 05:41:06 <gambler> not in total recall
Oct 01 05:41:07 <f00f-> for now, muthu, for now :D
Oct 01 05:41:09 <snadge> not really.. you still have to expend the energy required to expand and contract your lungs
Oct 01 05:41:17 <snadge> and then your body requires energy also to process this oxygen
Oct 01 05:41:30 <snadge> so breathing costs effort :P
Oct 01 05:42:07 <muthu_> snadge: free has nothing to do with effort ;)
Oct 01 05:43:01 <muthu_> shit! 8k messages are downloading to evolution
Oct 01 05:43:18 <muthu_> into a single inbox
Oct 01 05:43:39 <gambler> how many free ringtones did you sign up for
Oct 01 05:44:21 <snadge> if QT was BSD licensed.. its freeness wouldn't be an issue
Oct 01 05:44:40 <snadge> but of all things.. its gplv3.. the most poisonous of them all
Oct 01 05:44:51 <snadge> hehe
Oct 01 05:45:32 <muthu_> plusminus should be working for google android. seriously.
Oct 01 05:46:17 <muthu_> wth is the goog hr doing?
Oct 01 05:47:02 <muthu_> now is the time to ramp up.. and go all out for v2
Oct 01 05:48:41 <muthu_> http://androidcommunity.com/t-mobile-g1-hands-on-including-award-winning-android-app-feature-shopsavvy-20080929/
Oct 01 05:50:18 <f00f-> v2 ?
Oct 01 05:50:49 <muthu_> yeah, android 2
Oct 01 05:51:22 <muthu_> quickly get in bluetooth, video recording, xmpp etc.,
Oct 01 05:52:08 <muthu_> and add multitouch
Oct 01 05:52:10 <f00f-> ADC II
Oct 01 05:52:13 <f00f-> not "p2" either :P
Oct 01 05:52:18 <muthu_> lol
Oct 01 05:52:20 <f00f-> yeah i don't know what to brew up for ADC II
Oct 01 05:52:31 <f00f-> will need to get some more juicy details before i get my hopes up
Oct 01 05:52:32 <muthu_> f00f-: i'm waiting for the adc 2 rules
Oct 01 05:52:37 <muthu_> hope nothing krazy in it
Oct 01 05:52:38 <f00f-> aye
Oct 01 05:52:53 <f00f-> shouldn't be any
Oct 01 05:52:54 <muthu_> meanwhile working on mobeegal for market launch
Oct 01 05:53:04 <f00f-> nice, how far away are you?
Oct 01 05:53:19 <muthu_> still early
Oct 01 05:53:23 <muthu_> but we are getting there
Oct 01 05:53:28 <f00f-> you promised to launch in like august?!
Oct 01 05:53:29 <muthu_> you want to join our team?
Oct 01 05:53:42 <f00f-> if i had no other projects, yes :)
Oct 01 05:53:59 <f00f-> i got plenty on my plate right now :X
Oct 01 05:53:59 <muthu_> this should be your major project :)
Oct 01 05:54:04 <f00f-> haha
Oct 01 05:54:19 <muthu_> i know.. all androids are busy ;)
Oct 01 05:54:36 <f00f-> as if we should be so lucky
Oct 01 05:54:43 <f00f-> hopefully something comes out of this blood and sweat
Oct 01 05:54:56 <muthu_> its going to fantastic
Oct 01 05:55:00 <muthu_> just keep at it
Oct 01 05:55:24 <muthu_> i can go back to coding, if only my os can behave!
Oct 01 05:55:46 <f00f-> i missed PuTTY in windows, so i went back :D
Oct 01 05:56:08 <muthu_> haha
Oct 01 05:56:29 <muthu_> the evil thought crossed my mind
Oct 01 05:56:35 <muthu_> but i quickly shut it down
Oct 01 05:57:47 <f00f-> hehe
Oct 01 05:58:34 <muthu_> ubuntu is great.. almost, except for that crash
Oct 01 05:58:42 <f00f-> doing an upgrade?
Oct 01 05:59:07 <muthu_> and this is an holiday month here in india
Oct 01 05:59:26 <muthu_> ramzan, gandhi jayanthi, diwali..
Oct 01 05:59:45 <f00f-> yeah i heard about that temple stampede, too
Oct 01 05:59:52 <muthu_> terrible
Oct 01 06:00:03 <muthu_> everymonth one of the temple stampede happens
Oct 01 06:00:32 <muthu_> there's this famous temple in tirupati
Oct 01 06:00:41 <muthu_> you wouldn't believe the kinda crowd there
Oct 01 06:00:50 <f00f-> for religious occasions? or all the time?
Oct 01 06:00:56 <muthu_> ALL the time
Oct 01 06:01:02 <muthu_> occasions.. man!
Oct 01 06:01:07 <muthu_> don't even think about it
Oct 01 06:01:16 <f00f-> hopefully they have some crowd control..
Oct 01 06:01:22 <muthu_> yeah, they do
Oct 01 06:01:37 <f00f-> but yeah it can be tough, depending on how many police, etc. there are
Oct 01 06:01:46 <f00f-> sometimes you can't anticipate
Oct 01 06:01:52 <muthu_> no police
Oct 01 06:01:56 <muthu_> all temple staff
Oct 01 06:02:14 <muthu_> but only indians can survive it
Oct 01 06:03:06 <muthu_> its depressing to pick the papers these days
Oct 01 06:03:24 <f00f-> yeah :/
Oct 01 06:03:32 <muthu_> stampede, riots, blasts, communal violence, wall shit screwups
Oct 01 06:04:04 <f00f-> i kinda want my ADC II project to revolve around the "rest of the world"
Oct 01 06:04:18 <muthu_> what's the plan?
Oct 01 06:04:38 <f00f-> i don't know, something about `green` and microeconomics maybe, dont know
Oct 01 06:04:48 <muthu_> green will win
Oct 01 06:04:55 <f00f-> helping non-cash economies? still scouting.
Oct 01 06:05:01 <f00f-> actually havent' started thinking until 5 minutes ago
Oct 01 06:05:29 <muthu_> an android app which transfers funds to your home locker before the banks gets busted will be a big hit
Oct 01 06:05:57 <f00f-> yeah, especially if wall street starts tanking cyclically from this point on
Oct 01 06:06:07 <muthu_> its tanking
Oct 01 06:06:56 <muthu_> heard homes are as cheap as 75$
Oct 01 06:07:14 <f00f-> 75 dalla'?
Oct 01 06:07:17 <muthu_> yeah
Oct 01 06:07:21 <muthu_> 75 dolla
Oct 01 06:07:30 <f00f-> must be out in the sticks
Oct 01 06:07:31 <f00f-> but i believe it
Oct 01 06:07:34 <f00f-> so
Oct 01 06:07:37 <f00f-> do you know stockton?
Oct 01 06:07:42 <f00f-> it's like up north here in the bay
Oct 01 06:07:50 <muthu_> yeah
Oct 01 06:07:57 <f00f-> about two months ago, there were houses going for $25,000 up there
Oct 01 06:08:08 <muthu_> yup, this is a good time to think about buying
Oct 01 06:08:10 <f00f-> like decent 2 bedrooms
Oct 01 06:08:19 <f00f-> use your ADC winnings to go into real estate
Oct 01 06:08:22 <f00f-> trust me, you won't fail
Oct 01 06:08:23 <muthu_> i'll say jun 2009 is the perfect time
Oct 01 06:08:43 <f00f-> yeah
Oct 01 06:08:44 <muthu_> f00f-: agree, buying now is a smart move
Oct 01 06:08:51 <f00f-> it's going to be hard to get credit
Oct 01 06:08:55 <f00f-> esp. for first time buyers
Oct 01 06:08:56 <muthu_> still not bottom.. but close
Oct 01 06:09:00 <f00f-> yeah
Oct 01 06:09:12 <muthu_> how much in SF?
Oct 01 06:09:33 <f00f-> way too much to even consider in living in that yuppyville
Oct 01 06:09:33 <f00f-> BUT
Oct 01 06:09:35 <f00f-> i'm sure it has dropped
Oct 01 06:09:40 <f00f-> to reasonable rates :)
Oct 01 06:09:44 <muthu_> rite
Oct 01 06:09:59 <f00f-> i'm eyeing the peninsula (west bay) one day
Oct 01 06:10:09 <muthu_> buy in summer next year
Oct 01 06:10:32 <f00f-> yeah i'm working on balancing between saving and playing the market
Oct 01 06:11:03 <muthu_> dublin is a nice place
Oct 01 06:11:29 <f00f-> isn't that oracletown or is that sybaseville?
Oct 01 06:11:30 <muthu_> its got everything
Oct 01 06:11:37 <muthu_> sybase
Oct 01 06:11:56 <f00f-> i'd say there's nothing out there, sine i'm from east bay
Oct 01 06:12:01 <f00f-> not *that* far east as dublin :)
Oct 01 06:12:01 <muthu_> hehe
Oct 01 06:12:13 <f00f-> but i need to give an objective look at it
Oct 01 06:12:28 <muthu_> its nice
Oct 01 06:12:51 <muthu_> everything is closer
Oct 01 06:13:01 <muthu_> you don't need mobeegal there ;)
Oct 01 06:13:02 <muthu_> lol
Oct 01 06:13:24 <f00f-> yeah, screw pednav too
Oct 01 06:13:29 <f00f-> everything is within arm's length reach!
Oct 01 06:13:30 <muthu_> haha
Oct 01 06:13:40 <muthu_> that's the best part in dublin
Oct 01 06:13:47 <muthu_> i felt right in
Oct 01 06:14:01 <f00f-> i never figured out if it had a downtown or not
Oct 01 06:14:09 <muthu_> it has
Oct 01 06:14:13 <muthu_> pretty small
Oct 01 06:14:18 <f00f-> i guess i'm thinking dublin == pleasanton
Oct 01 06:14:41 <muthu_> yeah, dublin/pleasanton
Oct 01 06:14:42 <f00f-> i know dublin is full of auto dealers
Oct 01 06:15:44 <muthu_> a lot
Oct 01 06:16:12 <muthu_> f00f-: got a G1?
Oct 01 06:16:34 <f00f-> muthu_: nope, i need to go to the store and get one on the 22nd :/
Oct 01 06:16:48 <umdk1d3> nobody replied from google?
Oct 01 06:16:55 <f00f-> yeah, they said 'no'
Oct 01 06:17:00 <umdk1d3> ouch :/
Oct 01 06:17:03 <f00f-> i should have lied upfront
Oct 01 06:17:17 <f00f-> oh well, at least know i get to work harder
Oct 01 06:17:33 <f00f-> hopefully i can get root access on the consumer device
Oct 01 06:17:39 <f00f-> 'su' :P
Oct 01 06:17:45 <snadge> what are the chances of the federal reserve being disbanded within the next decade?
Oct 01 06:17:53 <muthu_> http://www.mrwiggleslovesyou.com/comics/rehab477.jpg
Oct 01 06:17:55 <umdk1d3> i seriously doubt root on consumer devices  :/
Oct 01 06:18:12 <f00f-> umdk1d3: since that would totally help in debugging
Oct 01 06:18:19 <snadge> google should declare war on the banking system :P
Oct 01 06:18:20 <f00f-> i wonder if we'll even be able to do remote on-device debugging
Oct 01 06:18:38 <umdk1d3> f00f-: the debugging+logcat all happens in userspace
Oct 01 06:19:03 <f00f-> oh, so did you figure out a way to retreive the logcat from an app?
Oct 01 06:19:07 <f00f-> or does it need some system privs
Oct 01 06:19:21 <snadge> even better.. google should start its own bank, with the intention of performing a hostile takeover of the federal reserve banks.. and ultimately controlling the world economy ;) (shuts up now)
Oct 01 06:19:26 <umdk1d3> i asked in here a few days ago, but havent looked any further past that
Oct 01 06:19:34 <umdk1d3> there was a DUMP permission iirc
Oct 01 06:19:54 <f00f-> ah interesting, maybe you need to construct logcat-like logs yourself from a dump
Oct 01 06:20:07 <muthu_> snadge: federal reserve banks are doing fine.. aren't they?
Oct 01 06:21:18 <muthu_> shopsavvy is the only app which is seeing some action
Oct 01 06:21:33 <muthu_> wonder what the other 20, or 50 is doing?
Oct 01 06:21:46 <f00f-> umdk1d3: did you get your stuff squared away for that deadline?
Oct 01 06:22:05 <f00f-> muthu_: i'm sure the lucky ones are playing with their devices ;)
Oct 01 06:22:15 <muthu_> oh yeah
Oct 01 06:22:19 <muthu_> forgot about NDA
Oct 01 06:22:56 <umdk1d3> muthu_: i think they are kinda pushing the envelope with showing off their app
Oct 01 06:23:05 <umdk1d3> with regards to the tmobile nda they signed
Oct 01 06:23:16 <umdk1d3> maybe they agreed to someone else now, idk
Oct 01 06:23:22 <f00f-> i'm very curious about the backend scalability of all these apps
Oct 01 06:23:31 <umdk1d3> mine scales  ^.^
Oct 01 06:23:32 <f00f-> although i doubt there'll be as big an influx of users as with the iPhone
Oct 01 06:23:42 <f00f-> and mine *will* scale soon too :P
Oct 01 06:24:33 <muthu_> umdk1d3: yeah, not sure what the tmo nda is
Oct 01 06:24:48 <f00f-> i found this great graph library for java and am excited to see how it'll perform with some real-world data
Oct 01 06:25:00 <muthu_> no point in worrying about scaling now
Oct 01 06:25:09 <muthu_> focus on the functions
Oct 01 06:25:17 <f00f-> totally
Oct 01 06:32:29 <muthu_> Oct 2, all wineshops are closed in India
Oct 01 06:33:46 <f00f-> there's some announcement coming oct 2nd
Oct 01 06:33:51 <f00f-> for what occasion muthu?
Oct 01 06:34:49 <muthu_> gandhi birthdate
Oct 01 07:48:49 <ezak>  http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/09/announcing-android-10-sdk-release-1.html
Oct 01 07:48:53 <ezak> sorry
Oct 01 08:04:43 * ezak is gone.. autoaway after 15 min ..[cyp(l/on.p/on)]
Oct 01 08:28:58 <dhairya> Hi all, is there any Android App developed for Chinese / Japanese Text Input ?
Oct 01 08:39:57 <dhairya> ?
Oct 01 10:30:09 <fearphage> jasta: we were talking about the g1's chipset. do you have any more detailed info about that?
Oct 01 10:40:32 <montamer> hi how can i extract differences patween two folders?
Oct 01 10:42:08 <montamer> into a patch
Oct 01 10:42:09 <montamer> ?
Oct 01 10:53:49 <loke__> montamer: diff
Oct 01 10:59:35 <montamer> @loke__ thanx i will look into the diff man page
Oct 01 11:09:39 <loke__> good look
Oct 01 11:09:49 <loke__> check out "context diff", that's what patch is using
Oct 01 11:09:56 <loke__> it's -c to dif, IIRC
Oct 01 11:38:21 <Acsia> is there a way to wait for the mapview to load?
Oct 01 12:16:43 <Millow> anything new on android + htc diamond?
Oct 01 12:29:34 <Disconnect> loke__: diff -ur folder.old folder.new
Oct 01 12:31:40 <fearphage> Millow: htc touch pro would be sexier
Oct 01 12:31:56 <Millow> fearphage: I like the diamond better
Oct 01 12:32:29 <Millow> would like an iphone but we don't use the swedish iphone carrier at work so I choose HTC Diamond
Oct 01 12:32:40 <Millow> but I'd love to use android instead of windows mobile
Oct 01 12:32:41 <Millow> :)
Oct 01 12:34:01 <fearphage> i hate what apple is doing to the iphone
Oct 01 12:34:11 <fearphage> i got a chance to play with an unlocked iphone and i was amazed
Oct 01 12:34:19 <fearphage> the current state of the locked iphone is abysmal
Oct 01 12:34:39 <fearphage> the iphone has lots of potential but you are locked under Apple's thumb of control
Oct 01 12:36:46 <gambler> fearphage, what did you think was so great about the unlocked iphone
Oct 01 12:37:03 <fearphage> what it can do when allowed
Oct 01 12:37:11 <fearphage> the power applications had
Oct 01 12:37:31 <fearphage> although the basic app store api is very locked down
Oct 01 12:37:44 <fearphage> shell access
Oct 01 12:37:46 <gambler> anything specific?
Oct 01 12:38:00 <gambler> im curious I havent really followed the iphone
Oct 01 12:38:09 <fearphage> interfacing with gps, cameras, the disk, and things
Oct 01 12:38:12 <fearphage> let me find one
Oct 01 12:38:38 <fearphage> one major thing is you can use your phone as a blueetooth modem for internet connectivity from a laptop
Oct 01 12:39:15 <gambler> does the iphone sdk let you write code in languages beside obj-c?
Oct 01 12:39:35 <loke__> gambler: not to my knowledge
Oct 01 12:39:36 <fearphage> no, why would apple give you options? they dictate. you follow
Oct 01 12:40:24 <gambler> ok just asking. I assumed iphone was just a *nix distro with something shiny on top like OSX
Oct 01 12:40:57 <Disconnect> fearphage: so tethering (which tends to be a provider choice these days, rather than hw vendor) is the new 'killer app' for jailbroken iphones? thats kinda sad :(
Oct 01 12:42:17 <fearphage> no, thats just what came to mind off the top of my head
Oct 01 12:42:19 <loke__> gambler: well, in a way it is. It's heavily locked down though and I don't believe you can even touch the underlying OS
Oct 01 12:42:43 <loke__> (unless you break it)
Oct 01 12:43:12 <loke__> Disconnect: well, are there any other phones except for the iphone that is locked down like that?
Oct 01 12:43:26 <loke__> i mean, finding ways to block voip apps and such
Oct 01 12:43:31 <Disconnect> loke__: actually, most tmob phones are -worse-.
Oct 01 12:43:44 <Disconnect> even the gmail app doesn't work (not signed by tmob == no net access)
Oct 01 12:44:21 <loke__> Disconnect: ohh ok, but that's limited to the subsidised phoned right? I mean, you can always go and buy the non-crippled version if you pay full price for the hardware
Oct 01 12:45:20 <Disconnect> the only reason i'm still with tmob is we've got an antique cheap-as-dirt family plan with a ton of freebies.. can't get within $30 a month on any other provider :(
Oct 01 12:45:36 <loke__> Disconnect: so what phone do you use with them then?
Oct 01 12:46:29 <Disconnect> she's got a $60 unlocked blackberry off woot and i'm dumping a nokia e90 (nokia support is terrible, and they won't even sell me the 'disposable' parts i need.)
Oct 01 12:46:38 <Disconnect> her bb happens to be tmob-branded but..
Oct 01 12:47:02 <loke__> Disconnect: I really like my E61, but it's getting very broken by now
Oct 01 12:47:04 * Disconnect hasn't used "standard" provider phones in years, i think the last one was a t910.
Oct 01 12:47:09 <loke__> best app for it: Fring
Oct 01 12:47:37 <loke__> I can see how a provider would try to stop such app if they had control over the phones
Oct 01 12:48:36 <loke__> Disconnect: but if tmobile is so bad, how come they of all people paid to get an exclusive on the android phone? I mean, they don't have any control over the apps there
Oct 01 12:48:45 <Disconnect> yah that was surprising
Oct 01 12:48:52 <Disconnect> i suspect its a direct response to the appstore
Oct 01 12:49:00 <loke__> well, obviousl
Oct 01 12:49:21 <Disconnect> (i was -really- surprised when gmail didn't work.. she only runs about 4 add-on apps, and gmail is the big one. we took it back that night..)
Oct 01 12:49:34 <Disconnect> not in the usual way - people who want an iphone aren't going to buy a g1.
Oct 01 12:49:36 <loke__> I did read something that tmobile wanted to stop voip apps as well... Now, does that mean that the tmobile branded ones will have some kind of lock?
Oct 01 12:49:54 <Disconnect> loke__: tmob can stop voip the easy way - in their network
Oct 01 12:50:22 <Disconnect> but they do the roaming phones already (forget what its called, the ones that can switch back and forth between voip and cell automatically)
Oct 01 12:50:34 <Disconnect> so i think they made their peace with that aspect of it
Oct 01 12:52:17 <Disconnect> random g1 question (since the google auth seems to be broken on my emulator) .. can you have different google accounts for calendar and mail? (or multiple gmail accounts).. otherwise i've got some hard decisions to make :(
Oct 01 12:52:53 <loke__> Disconnect: how?
Oct 01 12:53:20 <loke__> Disconnect: sure they can block whatever protcol SIP uses, but how could they block whatever new protocol pops up?
Oct 01 12:54:20 <loke__> I have an unlimited dataplan for my mobile phone, I could use that thing as my primary internet if I wanted to
Oct 01 12:54:32 <Disconnect> one or two users isn't a big deal. and once it gets beyond that the traffic analysis tools highlight it, and its a matter of minutes (on the tech side) and a couple of meetings to add a filter that disrupts or destroys it
Oct 01 12:55:14 <loke__> Disconnect: are the unlimited dataplans in the us, "true" unlimited plans?
Oct 01 12:55:21 <Disconnect> yes and no
Oct 01 12:55:23 <loke__> or do they cap?
Oct 01 12:55:52 <Disconnect> yes, there are no overage charges. but no, most providers say if you use too much bandwidth (by whatever defintion - average bps over time, total rx/tx, etc) you get throttled
Oct 01 12:56:10 <Disconnect> take a look at the press about tmoble g1 and the 1gig limit for some decent background (fairly recent story)
Oct 01 12:56:23 <loke__> ok, throttle is OK i guess for most purposes (if the cap is high enough). Outright block or overcharge is bad
Oct 01 12:56:32 <loke__> Disconnect: 1 GB limit?
Oct 01 12:56:35 <loke__> w t f?
Oct 01 12:56:36 <Disconnect> (fwiw a heavy-use iphone coworker of mine had only used about 200M on his phone in about 1.5-2 months)
Oct 01 12:56:39 <Disconnect> 1gb per month
Oct 01 12:56:54 <loke__> I use way more than that every month on my Nokia, and I don't do much
Oct 01 12:57:55 * Disconnect should find the counter on the e90
Oct 01 12:58:36 <loke__> It's on my bill every month... it contains a line for my bandwidth charge (always damn high) and then there is a line with the discount which is the same amount
Oct 01 13:00:49 <Disconnect> looks like i'm about 600 megs in about a month. so it'll be a lot higher with the g1, at least at first.
Oct 01 13:02:17 <loke__> Disconnect: is there still no information on the public availability of the android phone?
Oct 01 13:02:27 <Disconnect> no it got released
Oct 01 13:02:35 <Disconnect> preorder opened, then ran out, but might be open again.
Oct 01 13:02:40 <loke__> Disconnect: i mean, one that is not operator-locked
Oct 01 13:02:41 <Disconnect> shipping to arrive on the 23rd
Oct 01 13:02:56 <Disconnect> ahh. i think the word was $600USD after the 23rd for unlocked-no-contract
Oct 01 13:03:07 <loke__> that's ok
Oct 01 13:03:15 <ulmen> 400 afair
Oct 01 13:03:20 <Disconnect> or just wait 90 days and get a used one unlocked (tmob's policy is 90 days before they'll unlock)
Oct 01 13:03:37 <Disconnect> ulmen: i thought $400 was locked, just inelegible for contract extensions
Oct 01 13:03:49 <plusminus_> Disconnect: that means one can jump out of the contract for X dollars ?
Oct 01 13:03:57 <loke__> I can wait a few months, but my poor nokia is really dying on me... A few people in the pffice have gone for the E71, which is a mighty fine phone, but I want the android :-)
Oct 01 13:04:08 <Disconnect> http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/23/t-mobiles-cto-on-g1-unlocking-and-tethering-plus-a-few-detai/ ok .. $400 and then wait the 90 days
Oct 01 13:04:15 <ulmen> Disconnect: might be right, 400 is without contract but may have to be unlocked too ... no idea
Oct 01 13:05:11 <ulmen> i also read somewhere htc will be buiding a very similar phone and sell it on its own
Oct 01 13:05:23 <Disconnect> loke__: want to buy an e90? works great except the headset speaker (the standard non-speakerphone speaker) is shot. nokia support (esp if you have walk-in locations) might replace it cheap/free - its considered 'disposable' and should be replaced every time the handset is opened by nok.
Oct 01 13:05:42 <loke__> Disconnect: you want to sell me yours?
Oct 01 13:05:49 <Disconnect> ya
Oct 01 13:06:00 <Disconnect> i won't need it in a few weeks. and if it comes down to it, i can spend that time using my 9300i again
Oct 01 13:06:02 <loke__> Hmm... It's a bit big isn't it?
Oct 01 13:06:05 <loke__> How much for it?
Oct 01 13:06:58 <Disconnect> lemme see what its worth btu its a little big. not totally huge but.. lemme find the size comparison.
Oct 01 13:07:08 <loke__> Disconnect: well, I've seen it
Oct 01 13:07:57 <Disconnect> http://www.esato.com/phones/index.php/phone=333,cp=189
Oct 01 13:08:13 <loke__> I'd consider it... Let me put it this way: if, after the g1 release, information comes out that says they have some kind of 1-year exclusive agreement with locked-only phones or whatever (in order words, no way for me to buy it) AND you still happen to have yur E90, then I'll buy it from you
Oct 01 13:08:54 <Disconnect> heh sounds good
Oct 01 13:09:25 <Disconnect> i'm willing to sell sooner - having to use bt headsets annoys me - but its not going anywhere (unlesss someone else buys it, but i'm not shopping it that hard)
Oct 01 13:09:35 <loke__> speaking of that though, I'm suprised that HTC would go into an agreement with tmobile that effecively prevents them from taking my money :-)
Oct 01 13:09:46 <loke__> I'd love to read the agreement between htc and tmobile
Oct 01 13:09:58 <Disconnect> oh random side note (and how it got busted :) ..) its brown, with a red front bezel. although i can put the brown back on.
Oct 01 13:10:16 <loke__> Disconnect: if you sell to someone else, fine. :-)  but if you still have it, i'll probably take it
Oct 01 13:10:20 <Disconnect> cool
Oct 01 13:11:38 <loke__> For now, I'll go back to keeping my fingers crossed that tmobile didn't pay htc to keep the "non-operator-locked" phones off the market
Oct 01 13:12:35 <loke__> Disconnect: btw, it's a standard E90, right? quad-band so it'll actually work at full HSDPA speeds outside the us?
Oct 01 13:13:12 <Disconnect> yah got it from someone who picked it up overseas (which is why nok usa won't touch it, even for money)
Oct 01 13:13:22 <loke__> oh
Oct 01 13:13:45 <loke__> I've had pretty good experience with nokia supprot here, they took my support calls without even verifying that I have a phone :-)
Oct 01 13:13:49 <Disconnect> cool
Oct 01 13:16:50 <loke__> oh
Oct 01 13:16:54 <loke__> motorola android phones...
Oct 01 13:16:56 <loke__> but when?
Oct 01 13:41:02 <monteslu> romainguy, I got the dojo guys to add support for android to gfx, but it has to fall back to Canvas. Which means I can render really cool images, but no text rotation or events
Oct 01 13:41:12 <monteslu> android's browser really, really needs SVG :)
Oct 01 13:42:04 <monteslu> or VML, I guess. But SVG is doesn't drink the MS koolaid
Oct 01 13:50:21 <andylockran> howdy
Oct 01 14:36:21 <pardom> question not really related to android:
Oct 01 14:36:37 <pardom> has anyone heard of the roaming hack to get out of etf?
Oct 01 14:36:48 <pardom> or had any experience with it?
Oct 01 14:38:29 <kslater> here's something I can't seem to find an answer to - will applications be able to be loaded locally? That is, not via download from an app store, but say loaded from the sd card for example?
Oct 01 14:38:40 <pardom> yes
Oct 01 14:38:57 <kslater> cool
Oct 01 14:39:11 <kslater> one less impediment to getting the G1
Oct 01 14:42:13 <pardom> does anyone have a 1.0 example of sqlite that doesn't use a content provider
Oct 01 14:52:52 <yakischloba> pardom: I think the Notepad example uses sqlite without a content provider
Oct 01 14:53:11 <pardom> it uses i content provider
Oct 01 14:53:16 <yakischloba> oh
Oct 01 14:53:19 <pardom> :(
Oct 01 14:53:30 <yakischloba> well it should be pretty easy to figure out how to use it without content provider
Oct 01 14:53:47 <jasta> pardom: do you have a specific question?
Oct 01 14:53:51 <pardom> i just want to see good convention
Oct 01 14:53:55 <pardom> and not hack something together
Oct 01 14:54:01 <jasta> id ont know of any example off the top of my head, but how hard can it be to figure out? :)
Oct 01 14:54:16 <jasta> ahh, well, look through the android apps repository
Oct 01 14:54:19 <jasta> maybe theyve got something in there
Oct 01 14:54:23 <yakischloba> its pretty hard to screw it up ;)
Oct 01 14:54:48 <pardom> where's the repository?
Oct 01 14:55:00 <jasta> you can find it on the developers blog
Oct 01 14:55:04 <pardom> kl thx
Oct 01 14:56:08 <jasta> one thing to consider is that you probably should be using a ContentProvider :)
Oct 01 14:56:28 <pardom> why? i don't intent on sharing the data
Oct 01 14:56:46 <jasta> if your data is not private by nature, it may be more useful than you'd think to export.
Oct 01 14:56:47 <pardom> intend*
Oct 01 14:58:06 <jasta> Photostream uses SQLite without a ContentProvider, btw.
Oct 01 14:59:07 <ttuttle> morrildl: greetings
Oct 01 14:59:10 <pardom> found it, thx
Oct 01 14:59:26 <morrildl> ttuttle: howdy
Oct 01 14:59:31 <jasta> morrildl: hey, i've got my StreamMediaPlayer workaround moving along now.  I might publish it here pretty soon once I iron out all the kinks.
Oct 01 15:00:00 <jasta> it's an extended MediaPlayer which adds setDataSource(RandomAccessStream)
Oct 01 15:00:27 <morrildl> jasta: sweeeet.  but it seems like it might be kind of hard to download files from IRC ;)
Oct 01 15:00:47 <jasta> it's so slow it's unusable on the emulator, although i have tested it on a real device and for obvious reasons it performs much better there
Oct 01 15:00:53 <jasta> thats pretty encouraging
Oct 01 15:00:57 <morrildl> jasta: heh
Oct 01 15:01:00 <morrildl> sounds about right
Oct 01 15:01:45 <jasta> well, my work-around is I/O intensive, in particular because the MediaPlayer is writing its own temporary cache while I'm writing a permanent one.  Also, I might even be reading from the cache at the same time in certain circumstances.
Oct 01 15:02:33 <jasta> All this I/O going through the emulator to files on a single movable hard disk is agonizing, but on a device with two separate solid state storage mediums involved the performance is greatly improved.
Oct 01 15:03:07 <jasta> I hadn't really considered that initially, that this type of brutal I/O will be way faster on the device than on a PC.
Oct 01 15:03:52 <jasta> and as for memory usage, i'm currently using HttpCore for the server, but for production I will implement my own extremely light weight server that understands just enough HTTP to make this crude trick work
Oct 01 15:03:57 <morrildl> jasta: good thing it's linux underneath
Oct 01 15:04:04 <jasta> why?
Oct 01 15:04:17 <morrildl> b/c Linux has at least decent I/O performance
Oct 01 15:04:22 <jasta> oh, yes
Oct 01 15:04:24 <morrildl> many alternatives do not
Oct 01 15:05:35 <jasta> i think the real win is that solid state drives have constant seek :)
Oct 01 15:06:02 <morrildl> that too
Oct 01 15:06:12 <jasta> and also that there are two storage devices at play on the emulator, so its not even having to seek on one of them at all
Oct 01 15:06:35 <jasta> the internal storage is writing the MediaPlayer's read-ahead cache, where the storage card is writing and possibly reading my cache.
Oct 01 15:16:14 <gambler> if a background service is generating events, whats the best way for it to drive the UI?
Oct 01 15:16:50 <jasta> do you mean binding it to an activity and communicating events to the activity for display?
Oct 01 15:17:05 <gambler> yes exactly.
Oct 01 15:17:05 <gambler> If I generate an Intent in my server ActivityManager gives me a Timeout executing service
Oct 01 15:17:52 <jasta> i'm not sure what your question really is then, just define an asynchronous API in your service and have an activity use it to display results?
Oct 01 15:18:01 <ttuttle> morrildl: How are things going?
Oct 01 15:19:22 <zhobbs> gambler: you want to bind to your service and have async callbacks to receive the events...take a look at aidl
Oct 01 15:20:03 <gambler> ah ok that shines a light...I didnt investigate that
Oct 01 15:20:14 <jasta> gambler: here, i have a pretty sophisticated example of exactly this:
Oct 01 15:20:48 <jasta> http://code.google.com/p/five/source/browse/trunk/five-client/src/org/devtcg/five/activity/SourceList.java
Oct 01 15:21:22 <jasta> do note that this extends from my custom ServiceActivity, which is just a convenience for managing activities which critically bind to a service
Oct 01 15:22:56 <jasta> what it's doing is showing a simple list of sync sources and, when the service is syncing, showing its progress and results.
Oct 01 15:24:10 <gambler> I could read the doco but where are you registering the callbacks
Oct 01 15:24:13 <jasta> also note that this code defers a call to setContentView until after the service connection has been established so that it avoids the "flickr" of initially presenting a UI and then suddenly changing it based on the service's state
Oct 01 15:24:47 <jasta> gambler: the callbacks are defined and implemented by .service.IMetaObserver.aidl and MetaService.java respectively
Oct 01 15:25:04 <jasta> see the service package for a little help there
Oct 01 15:25:39 <jasta> these are sophisticated examples, so maybe a bit hard to learn from, but the result of a heck of a lot of tinkering and tweaking so still probably worth the time to explore
Oct 01 15:25:52 <gambler> cheers
Oct 01 15:32:55 <anno^da> Apple drops NDA for released software
Oct 01 15:33:04 <anno^da> haha the pressure is increasing :-)
Oct 01 15:33:28 <Danikar> just today?
Oct 01 15:35:32 <anno^da> yeah
Oct 01 15:35:38 <anno^da> http://www.tuaw.com/2008/10/01/iphone-nda-dropped/#
Oct 01 15:36:05 <zer0her0> dumb question, did t-mo state the unlock price(if there would be one)?
Oct 01 15:36:20 <Acsia> ha
Oct 01 15:36:22 <ttuttle> zer0her0: I've heard $400.
Oct 01 15:36:25 <unix_infidel> zer0her0: iirc, 399.
Oct 01 15:36:25 <anno^da> http://developer.apple.com/iphone/program/
Oct 01 15:36:35 <unix_infidel> but you can unlock a sim locked g1 after 90 days.
Oct 01 15:36:35 <jasta> the CTO said it would be $400, but he's a CO so he's probably lying.
Oct 01 15:36:52 <zer0her0> well i don't have a t-mo contract nor do i want to enter into one again
Oct 01 15:37:05 <unix_infidel> zer0her0: well you wont be able to use it on ATT
Oct 01 15:37:21 <zer0her0> um why?
Oct 01 15:38:06 * unix_infidel wonders what the "released software" caveat really means.
Oct 01 15:38:07 <jasta> 3G frequencies are diff
Oct 01 15:38:12 <jasta> it would work, but without 3G
Oct 01 15:39:59 <anno^da> unix_infidel: Well software after the release. :P
Oct 01 15:40:34 <zer0her0> ah ok, well tell you the truth i wouldn't even use it on ATT just wifi most likely.
Oct 01 15:44:08 <unix_infidel> zer0her0: well it works without a SIM.
Oct 01 15:44:41 <zer0her0> ok cool
Oct 01 15:45:00 <zer0her0> sorry been busy with projects no time to read the announcements and break down of said news
Oct 01 15:46:13 <wastrel> what android mailing lists should i be on?
Oct 01 15:49:04 <SanMehat> morning
Oct 01 15:49:34 <jasta> hello :)
Oct 01 15:49:44 <Danikar> hi
Oct 01 15:49:57 <morrildl> wastrel: http://code.google.com/android/groups.html
Oct 01 15:49:58 <ttuttle> SanMehat: hey
Oct 01 15:51:50 <SanMehat> yo
Oct 01 15:54:39 <summatusmentis> ell all
Oct 01 15:55:14 <summatusmentis> 'ello *
Oct 01 16:09:01 <unix_infidel> morrildl: did Alex from ShopSavvy get in touch with you recently?
Oct 01 16:09:28 <jasta> those programs are going to get Android users banned from Best Buy :P
Oct 01 16:10:30 <tethridge> I don't think best buy would want that bad press
Oct 01 16:10:56 <tethridge> I'm not saying they aren't stupid enough to do that, just that I think ultimately it would work itself out
Oct 01 16:11:01 <unix_infidel> jasta: well ShopSavvy polls all local retailers in your area as well as their respective online shops.
Oct 01 16:11:05 <morrildl> jasta: I doubt anyone who would use such an app would be in Best Buy anyway.   No matter what you're looking at in Best Buy, it's a pretty safe bet it's cheaper somewhere else anyway, so why bother? :)
Oct 01 16:11:38 <anno^da> Is ShopSavvy just for US consumers ?
Oct 01 16:11:57 <anno^da> Or is it capable of dealing with other countries as well ?
Oct 01 16:11:59 <morrildl> unix_infidel: I am going through my enormous email backlog now, so maybe :)
Oct 01 16:12:58 <jasta> wow, it's nice to have finally set up a gigabit network where i can actually get gigabit speeds ;)
Oct 01 16:13:07 <jasta> instead of these crummy home networks i've dealt with up until now
Oct 01 16:13:50 <jasta> i've got iperf reporting 988mbps transfers between all 6 servers at work
Oct 01 16:14:17 <jasta> too bad disk perf is so bad on all but 2 of them :)
Oct 01 16:17:10 <jasonlee> unix_infidel: sorry to ask, but who are you?  I work at big in japan and you seem to know someone?
Oct 01 16:18:10 <romainguy> jasonlee: nice UI btw in ShopSavvy :)
Oct 01 16:18:19 <unix_infidel> jasonlee: heh.
Oct 01 16:19:50 <jasonlee> romainguy: thanks! Rylan has some talent at that stuff..
Oct 01 16:28:01 <Disconnect> fyi most stores already have a no-photos policy; if this becomes super-popular they'll start enforcing it i suspect.
Oct 01 16:32:13 <tethridge> well, technically, it isn't taking a picture.  It's just scanning
Oct 01 16:32:28 <tethridge> that would be fun getting into that argument with the manager.
Oct 01 16:32:33 <tethridge> where's the picture, eh?
Oct 01 16:32:38 <jasta> actually, technically it _is_ taking a picture.
Oct 01 16:32:41 <tethridge> I know
Oct 01 16:33:04 <tethridge> but I'm thinking of making the manager prove you're taking pictures of his store
Oct 01 16:33:20 <jasta> i think he'll probably just kick your ass out either way :)
Oct 01 16:33:27 <tethridge> lol
Oct 01 16:33:42 <tethridge> it they have good prices, they won't have any problems
Oct 01 16:37:20 <jasta> but they dont and they know that :)
Oct 01 16:45:04 <Disconnect> all he has to do is prove that you are waving a cameraphone around
Oct 01 16:45:13 <Disconnect> and he doesn't even really have to prove that...
Oct 01 16:45:35 <Danikar> all he really has to do is kick your ass out of the store. lol
Oct 01 16:45:41 <summatusmentis> why would the store manager care?
Oct 01 16:46:19 <Danikar> depends on wether the store manager relizes he is nothing but a peon or not.
Oct 01 16:46:35 <morrildl> oh
Oct 01 16:46:38 <morrildl> Hey, it's October now
Oct 01 16:46:40 <morrildl> wow
Oct 01 16:46:46 <ttuttle> morrildl: indeed it is
Oct 01 16:46:53 <summatusmentis> :( means I have to pay money soon again
Oct 01 16:47:11 <ttuttle> morrildl: I can't recall the details, but I heard some crummy cell phone was launching this month. :-P
Oct 01 16:47:42 <summatusmentis> that one from t-mobile? yeah, I heard it's ugly, and has two different clocks on it, and can't compete with the iPhone at all
Oct 01 16:47:53 <ttuttle> Yeah, what a shame.
Oct 01 16:47:55 <ttuttle> ;-)
Oct 01 16:48:26 <wastrel> 2 different clocks?
Oct 01 16:48:50 <summatusmentis> someone on gizmodo was talking about UI design, because there's a clock widget, and a clock in the upper right corner
Oct 01 16:48:56 <Danikar> the clock on the bar showed a different time than the big clock in the middle in one of the promo videos.
Oct 01 16:49:07 <ttuttle> Danikar: That's likely been fixed.
Oct 01 16:49:20 <rayado> more likely it was just photoshopped
Oct 01 16:49:31 <ttuttle> rayado: probably not.
Oct 01 16:49:39 <ttuttle> rayado: why go to the effort of photoshopping it when you have a real GUI?
Oct 01 16:50:30 <Disconnect> fwiw in the emulator its .. very wrong.
Oct 01 16:50:57 <Disconnect> analog says 4:49, titlebar says 2:31
Oct 01 16:51:24 <ttuttle> ouch
Oct 01 16:51:41 <ttuttle> romainguy: welcome back
Oct 01 16:51:42 <ttuttle> er
Oct 01 16:51:44 <ttuttle> fail
Oct 01 16:52:12 <zhobbs> first thing I do after wiping the data is kill that clock...it's ugly
Oct 01 16:52:14 <Danikar> The video on tmobile still has the 9:10 and 2:47 thing.
Oct 01 16:52:26 <Disconnect> nice
Oct 01 16:53:18 <morrildl> romainguy_ loves that clock
Oct 01 16:53:28 <morrildl> He talks about it all the time, how awesome it is
Oct 01 16:53:32 <zhobbs> haha
Oct 01 16:53:33 <morrildl> It's his favorite part of the UI
Oct 01 16:54:28 <ttuttle> morrildl: which one, the analog one?
Oct 01 16:54:33 <ttuttle> morrildl: I mean, I love the Alarm Clock myself.
Oct 01 16:54:35 <morrildl> Yup
Oct 01 16:54:42 <morrildl> romainguy_ LOVES that home screen clock.
Oct 01 16:54:59 <ttuttle> morrildl: It is pretty sweet.
Oct 01 16:55:01 <morrildl> (romainguy_ is ignoring me.)
Oct 01 16:55:23 <summatusmentis> or you know, not actually at his computer
Oct 01 16:55:23 <ttuttle> morrildl: He may not be at his computer -- romainguy (no underscore) disconnected just a moment ago.
Oct 01 16:55:29 <morrildl> ah
Oct 01 16:55:46 <jasta> does he not actually love that clock, morrildl? *grin*
Oct 01 16:56:12 <morrildl> jasta: he *loathes* that clock.
Oct 01 16:56:25 <summatusmentis> haha, I see what u did thar
Oct 01 16:56:28 <jasta> i got that, i was joking
Oct 01 16:56:33 <summatusmentis> >_>
Oct 01 16:56:34 <jasta> but yes, i hate that clock too
Oct 01 16:56:37 <morrildl> yeah, but others aren't
Oct 01 16:56:37 <jasta> it's hideous and out of place
Oct 01 16:56:56 <zhobbs> jasta: agreed!
Oct 01 16:57:00 <morrildl> I think it should have been a bug droid with his arms positioned to tell time
Oct 01 16:57:04 <jasta> i actually don't much like the home screen this time around (*runs wildly away from romain*)
Oct 01 16:57:08 <ttuttle> morrildl: the Alarm Clock has one like that.
Oct 01 16:57:12 <jasta> it feels too much like the crappy windows desktop
Oct 01 16:57:16 * ttuttle hands jasta a collection of knives.
Oct 01 16:57:23 <ttuttle> s/jasta/morrildl/;
Oct 01 16:58:01 <tomgibara> About that clock: I've said this before - why can I style the alarm clock (which I will rarely if ever see) and not the clock on the home screen?
Oct 01 16:58:12 <ttuttle> tomgibara: They're different apps.  Good point though.
Oct 01 16:58:18 <tomgibara> And why do the alarm clocks not include the homescreen clock?
Oct 01 16:58:21 <ttuttle> tomgibara: Also, statistically, you will see the alarm clock.
Oct 01 16:58:44 <tomgibara> ttuttle: statistically?
Oct 01 16:58:47 <ttuttle> tomgibara: Yes.
Oct 01 16:58:54 <jasta> i'm disappointed by the lack of flexibility that made it into the home screen for 1.0 actually
Oct 01 16:58:57 <ttuttle> tomgibara: It's very commonly used on US phones.
Oct 01 16:59:41 <zhobbs> jasta: widget support would be awesome
Oct 01 16:59:49 <ttuttle> zhobbs: In due time...
Oct 01 16:59:55 <tomgibara> ttuttle: You mean statistically, there is a high probability that a significant proportion of the population of users who own the phone will see it?
Oct 01 17:00:02 <ttuttle> tomgibara: s/see/use/, yes.
Oct 01 17:00:50 <morrildl> the problem is that home screen widget support requires multiple processes to be able to plug into the same view hierarchy
Oct 01 17:00:59 <morrildl> this has security implications, to say the least
Oct 01 17:01:09 <morrildl> it's a big enough project that it got bumped from 1.0
Oct 01 17:01:10 <tomgibara> morrildl: Yes romain had pointed to that
Oct 01 17:01:18 <morrildl> a Widget API is on the roadmap
Oct 01 17:01:25 <zhobbs> morrildl: yeah, understandable
Oct 01 17:01:55 <tomgibara> morrildl: I suppose my core point is that the alarm app should at least have included the home screen clock.
Oct 01 17:03:24 <morrildl> tomgibara: fair enough :)
Oct 01 17:09:07 <zhobbs> what kind of playlists does the MediaStore parse of the /sdcard?
Oct 01 17:09:19 <jasta> zhobbs: or how about replacing it ourgith?
Oct 01 17:09:21 <jasta> outright*
Oct 01 17:09:28 <zhobbs> MediaStore?
Oct 01 17:09:38 <jasta> i was still talking about the home screen :)
Oct 01 17:10:02 <zhobbs> one of my first ideas for adc was some kind of a unique home screen
Oct 01 17:10:09 <jasta> probably just .pls and .m3u, although actually i dont know how it would do that very well
Oct 01 17:10:09 <anno^da> Does someone know if there is an application in developement for recording GPS tracks? (for supporting the OpenStreetMap project or playing geocaching)
Oct 01 17:27:15 <Danikar> Hey can someone tell me how to align the text in a EditText widget to the right side?
Oct 01 17:34:08 <zhobbs> wow, about time: http://developer.apple.com/iphone/program/
Oct 01 17:36:45 <zhobbs> wait...not sure I even understand...I first thought it meant that you could talk about the API in public
Oct 01 17:36:50 <zhobbs> is that what it means?
Oct 01 17:37:48 <fadden> First rule of iPhone development: don't talk about iPhone development.
Oct 01 17:37:55 <zhobbs> haha
Oct 01 17:40:37 <jasta> lol
Oct 01 17:41:34 <jasta> zhobbs: are you reading that verbiage?
Oct 01 17:41:39 <romainguy_> morrildl: don't get me started on the clock :))
Oct 01 17:41:40 <jasta> it sounds like a 15 year old wrote it.
Oct 01 17:41:54 <romainguy_> jasta: when 0.9 was released you seemed to like the Home screen :)
Oct 01 17:42:13 <jasta> romainguy_: well, i like it better than M5 ;)
Oct 01 17:42:41 <jasta> but the more i look at it i realize it's basically just the microsoft windows desktop with some simple gimmicks on top (activedesktop anyone?)
Oct 01 17:42:56 <romainguy_> yes, that's exactly what it is
Oct 01 17:42:57 <jasta> but those gimmicks aren't even programmable, and so far i see only a handful of not-so-useful ones
Oct 01 17:43:35 <jasta> and that clock...ugh :)
Oct 01 17:51:27 <monteslu> romainguy_,  http://svgopen.org/2008/papers/63-How_Ajax_Changes_the_Game_for_SVG/
Oct 01 17:51:31 <monteslu> android is mentioned
Oct 01 17:51:49 <monteslu> guess the author was under the same wrong assumption that I was :)
Oct 01 17:56:46 <wastrel> svg what now?
Oct 01 17:57:11 <romainguy_> monteslu: that people care about SVG? :))
Oct 01 17:57:23 <wastrel> i like inkscape
Oct 01 17:57:27 <monteslu> wastrel, it's missing in the android browser
Oct 01 17:57:36 <monteslu> romainguy_, people will care more and more
Oct 01 17:58:08 <monteslu> look at what you can do with dojox gfx, and tell me a better way of doing that
Oct 01 17:58:17 <romainguy_> Canvas API?
Oct 01 17:58:25 <monteslu> Canvas API is horrible
Oct 01 17:58:27 <monteslu> no events
Oct 01 17:58:32 <monteslu> no text manipulation
Oct 01 17:58:43 <monteslu> both svg and vml have it
Oct 01 17:59:07 <fadden> SVG has had 10 years to become popular.
Oct 01 17:59:20 <monteslu> fadden, so did ajax
Oct 01 17:59:23 <monteslu> now it is
Oct 01 17:59:35 <monteslu> things take time for other technologies to catch up
Oct 01 17:59:41 <Cedric2> Fair point
Oct 01 18:00:52 <Cedric2> However AJAX is an enabling technology
Oct 01 18:00:57 <monteslu> as is svg
Oct 01 18:01:00 * Cedric2 is still skeptical that SVG will ever go anywhere
Oct 01 18:01:30 <morrildl> The main problem with SVG is that it's in XML.
Oct 01 18:01:38 * morrildl has decided that there aren't enough XML flamewars on this channel.
Oct 01 18:01:38 <Cedric2> There are a lot of things that SVG cannot do well
Oct 01 18:01:40 <romainguy_> and a bad XML format too
Oct 01 18:01:57 <Cedric2> There is nothing that AJAX can't do since it's such a low-level technology
Oct 01 18:02:03 <morrildl> Also, SVG requires that you use emacs to edit it.
Oct 01 18:02:10 <monteslu> Cedric2, there is nothing that it can't do that canvas can
Oct 01 18:02:11 <zer0her0> haha
Oct 01 18:02:17 <monteslu> yet canvas is supported by android
Oct 01 18:02:18 <zer0her0> morrildl: nice add
Oct 01 18:02:29 <Cedric2> Oh I'm not arguing that Canvas is better than SVG
Oct 01 18:02:35 <rayado> more likely it was just photoshopped
Oct 01 18:02:37 <rayado> doh
Oct 01 18:02:44 <rayado> wrong window
Oct 01 18:02:51 <Cedric2> however, Canvas strikes me as a very low-level layer too, and there's a good track record that low level technologies can fare very well
Oct 01 18:03:11 <monteslu> how is it lower level than svg?
Oct 01 18:03:14 <Cedric2> For example, you can do both vector and bitmap graphics on Canvas
Oct 01 18:03:26 <monteslu> and you can add rasters to svgs
Oct 01 18:03:41 <monteslu> and you can stretch and skew and rotate them with dojo
Oct 01 18:03:44 <Cedric2> Canvas is already supported by 95% of browsers out there
Oct 01 18:03:51 <monteslu> not IE
Oct 01 18:03:58 <Cedric2> What you can add to a technology that doesn't exist on the web is not very relevant
Oct 01 18:04:25 <monteslu> canvas doesn't do events, that's a big deal
Oct 01 18:04:40 <rayado> that's not what canvas is for
Oct 01 18:04:46 <rayado> the view hierarchy does events
Oct 01 18:05:14 <monteslu> so, then what we write everthing for the specific platform? or in flash ?
Oct 01 18:05:23 <rayado> the view hierarchy is more like svg than canvas
Oct 01 18:07:32 <monteslu> if it's a small addition why not do it? Its not like its adding overhead when its not used, and its completely open
Oct 01 18:07:55 <romainguy> monteslu: how is it a small addition?
Oct 01 18:08:10 <monteslu> i didn't say it is. I said if it is
Oct 01 18:08:24 <monteslu> I didn't hear that it is in fact huge
Oct 01 18:08:42 <monteslu> and it was important enough to put in chrome
Oct 01 18:08:48 <romainguy> Android is not Chrome
Oct 01 18:08:54 <monteslu> i realize that
Oct 01 18:09:01 <romainguy> we don't have the luxury of virtually unlimited storage and memory
Oct 01 18:09:11 <monteslu> of course not
Oct 01 18:09:13 <romainguy> even if it's just a few hundred kbytes of binaries, it's a lot
Oct 01 18:09:23 <romainguy> I'm not saying SVG will not be supported or anything like this
Oct 01 18:09:34 <romainguy> just that it's not as easy as turning a switch on
Oct 01 18:09:44 <romainguy> especially considering the current spread of SVG
Oct 01 18:10:07 <monteslu> sure, but I haven't heard a good reason why it shouldn't be supported
Oct 01 18:10:18 <monteslu> so I'm doing my part to ask why its not there :)
Oct 01 18:10:30 <romainguy> because there are tons of other priorities
Oct 01 18:10:30 <Dougie187> lol when android comes out you can implement it.
Oct 01 18:10:32 <Dougie187> :)
Oct 01 18:11:12 <monteslu> hey, if it helps. I'll try
Oct 01 18:11:25 <monteslu> its an open spec with open implementations
Oct 01 18:11:46 <monteslu> I'm just not a fantastic c coder
Oct 01 18:12:30 <Kraln> hmm
Oct 01 18:12:56 <Kraln> Should I turn android-chat into a normal chat client, and charge for it?
Oct 01 18:13:15 <ttuttle> Kraln: Yes, and no.
Oct 01 18:13:31 <Kraln> so I should release it for free?
Oct 01 18:13:36 <Kraln> make me =p
Oct 01 18:13:50 <Cedric2> You're welcome to try :)
Oct 01 18:14:08 <monteslu> romainguy, is there a better browser priority? Just curious as to what it is
Oct 01 18:14:24 <monteslu> the one in the sdk seems to work well
Oct 01 18:14:31 <monteslu> other than the svg thing, of course
Oct 01 18:14:46 <zhobbs> Kraln:  if it was really good I'd pay up to $1.99 for it...but there will probably be an open source one right?
Oct 01 18:14:56 <Kraln> zhobbs: it already is open source
Oct 01 18:15:02 <zhobbs> ahh
Oct 01 18:15:04 <Kraln> you know that open source does not mean freeware, right?
Oct 01 18:15:31 <cyrus__> Trying to do the following with the new SDK but it appears some of the options to the emulator have changed
Oct 01 18:15:33 <cyrus__> android-sdk_m3-rc37a/tools/emulator -sdcard card.img -console -debug-kernel
Oct 01 18:15:46 <cyrus__> that worked with sdk m3-rc37a
Oct 01 18:15:56 <zhobbs> Kraln: sure, I guess you have to prove that you purchased the app to get the source?
Oct 01 18:15:58 <cyrus__> but the -console and -debug-kernel options are not recognized on the new version
Oct 01 18:16:11 <Kraln> zhobbs: I'm not sure how I'm going to roll with it
Oct 01 18:16:22 <Kraln> but lets say that source is free but if you want binaries you have to pay for them?
Oct 01 18:16:30 <zhobbs> right
Oct 01 18:18:07 <Disconnect> it'll take almost no time for bins to get released in that case. unless you go with something like the pine license, in which case.. hmm. you'll spend more time chasing bin distributors than coding
Oct 01 18:18:13 <ttuttle> Kraln: That's useless... someone else will compile them and giving them out.
Oct 01 18:18:17 <ttuttle> s/giving/give/;
Oct 01 18:18:33 <Kraln> open source does not mean devoid of copyright
Oct 01 18:18:46 <Kraln> I still retain copyright over the binaries generated by my source, and the name
Oct 01 18:18:59 <Kraln> they'd have to call it something else. and change all the graphics and layouts (stuff not covered by code)
Oct 01 18:19:13 <Kraln> and, I would point you to xchat for windows as an example
Oct 01 18:19:15 <fadden> Kraln: the hard part is enforcing that.
Oct 01 18:19:33 <Kraln> I'm sure that whatever store google has cooked up for android would be receptive to takedown notices.
Oct 01 18:19:37 <Disconnect> yep. cuz that worked so well for mozilla - they spent years getting enough lawyers together to convince people they were serious, much less eventually making it happen
Oct 01 18:19:40 <cyrus__> anyone?
Oct 01 18:19:57 <Disconnect> Kraln: doesn't need to be in the store for it to get distributed.
Oct 01 18:20:03 <fadden> cyrus__: can you work without those flags?
Oct 01 18:20:08 <Disconnect> this isn't the iphone after all :)
Oct 01 18:20:16 <Kraln> you are talking about channels that less than 5% of consumers will take
Oct 01 18:20:32 <Kraln> 95% of people: I WANT AN IRC CHAT CLIENT. OH LOOK THERE IS ONE FOR $1 IN THE STORE. *BUY* YAAY
Oct 01 18:20:45 <zhobbs> Kraln: I agree
Oct 01 18:20:48 <romainguy> you got it wrong
Oct 01 18:20:48 <Kraln> 5% of people: I want an irc chat client, but I am too cheap to pay $1 for binaries but too stupid to compile it from source.
Oct 01 18:20:52 <fadden> Kraln: true enough (see iTunes vs. amazon MP3)
Oct 01 18:20:55 <cyrus__> fadden - well I have tried to find out how I can access the console for the adb while the emulator is running, but haven't had any luck yet
Oct 01 18:20:58 <romainguy> only 5% of cell phone users want an IRC client :)
Oct 01 18:21:01 <zhobbs> though, that's probably more true for tetris than an IRC client
Oct 01 18:21:05 <ulmen> oh look, there is another one for free. *notbuy*
Oct 01 18:21:22 <fadden> cyrus__: what's special about the console?  Does "adb shell" not provide what you need?
Oct 01 18:21:30 <Kraln> romainguy: shh =p
Oct 01 18:21:42 <Disconnect> yah. "oh wait, there's the free version without a pretty icon. even better."
Oct 01 18:22:09 <fadden> Disconnect: I think you meant "betterer".
Oct 01 18:22:34 <cyrus__> fadden - not sure..never tried adb shell. let me give it a go
Oct 01 18:25:13 <Kraln> Disconnect: see iceweasel vs firefox
Oct 01 18:25:25 <Disconnect> right, i mentioned that earlier.
Oct 01 18:25:27 <ulmen> Kraln: i suggest to sell a "donation"-version for a few bucks and a free version for, well, free
Oct 01 18:25:54 <ulmen> if you app is good and i think worth some bucks, i'd happly give them away
Oct 01 18:26:07 <Disconnect> or just bite the bullet and make it closed.
Oct 01 18:26:26 <Disconnect> if thats what you want
Oct 01 18:26:51 <ulmen> getting rich with some irc client won't happen i think =)
Oct 01 18:27:06 <Disconnect> that too
Oct 01 18:28:40 <Kraln> yeah
Oct 01 18:28:51 <Kraln> in fact, I'd go as far as to say getting rich with some android application won't happen =p
Oct 01 18:29:00 <tethridge> why are there only three virtual desktops on the home screen?
Oct 01 18:29:04 <tethridge> is that configurable?
Oct 01 18:29:04 <Kraln> which is why I'm working on an iphone game =p
Oct 01 18:29:11 <Disconnect> sell it for $1k and give it a nice big "don't panic" button
Oct 01 18:29:25 <Cedric2> Kraln: ADC winnders would probably beg to differ :)
Oct 01 18:29:27 <romainguy> tethridge: because more was too much
Oct 01 18:29:30 <romainguy> so for 1.0, it's only 3
Oct 01 18:29:40 <romainguy> (too complicated to use :)
Oct 01 18:29:44 <Kraln> Cedric2: ADC winners? You mean 3x flashlight, 4x location services, etc?
Oct 01 18:29:49 <Kraln> that's artificial, I meant in the market
Oct 01 18:29:58 <Cedric2> No, I mean the apps that are sharing the prize money
Oct 01 18:30:22 <tethridge> romainguy, I guess that means not configurable too
Oct 01 18:30:33 <zhobbs> 3 desktops seems like more than I'll use on the phone
Oct 01 18:30:43 <tethridge> iPhone has up to 9
Oct 01 18:30:45 <romainguy> tethridge: that's right
Oct 01 18:31:00 <tethridge> of course it doesn't have the concept of the app drawer
Oct 01 18:31:01 <Cedric2> I'll go on record stating that "Three desktops should be enough for everybody"
Oct 01 18:31:19 <romainguy> tethridge: it is a bit different in that you can't really use these 9 screens freely
Oct 01 18:31:54 <tethridge> true
Oct 01 18:32:20 <Disconnect> Kraln: i'll spend $20 on your irc app if you get my preordered g1 to me this week :)
Oct 01 18:32:29 <Kraln> nah
Oct 01 18:32:37 <Kraln> busy enjoying the money my iphone app is making me =p
Oct 01 18:32:51 <Kraln> I'm taking the wait-and-see approach to android
Oct 01 18:32:53 <romainguy> what's your app?
Oct 01 18:33:22 <jjshoe> Kraln what do you make roughly on it a week?
Oct 01 18:33:25 <Kraln> romainguy: gflash+ - #1 in education
Oct 01 18:33:51 <Kraln> jjshoe: roughly? minimum wage
Oct 01 18:33:58 <yakischloba> Kraln: looks like #2 to me
Oct 01 18:34:07 <tethridge> doh
Oct 01 18:34:14 <Kraln> yakischloba: d'oh.
Oct 01 18:34:25 <Kraln> well, it was #1 for four weeks, what can you do? =0
Oct 01 18:34:40 <yakischloba> har
Oct 01 18:34:42 <tethridge> what is it.  A flash card program?
Oct 01 18:34:45 <unix_infidel> yea I was talking to a bunch of advertising guys about this.
Oct 01 18:34:53 <Kraln> tethridge: yes
Oct 01 18:34:55 <unix_infidel> distribution of profits is going to be much more spread out.
Oct 01 18:35:07 <jjshoe> Kraln can't say there's anything wrong with a little extra cash, even if it's little
Oct 01 18:35:19 <Kraln> jjshoe: minimum wage is about $13,000 a year.
Oct 01 18:35:23 <Kraln> that's retirement funding, sir
Oct 01 18:35:35 <unix_infidel> or a new KIA!
Oct 01 18:35:41 <Kraln> eww.
Oct 01 18:35:42 <unix_infidel> heh.
Oct 01 18:35:55 <Kraln> I think the amount of people who own iphones or macs and drive kias is near zero
Oct 01 18:36:16 <unix_infidel> meh, know a days I see people happy that they dont have to reboot their iPhones.
Oct 01 18:36:18 <tethridge> Kraln, how is it that you are making money with a free app?
Oct 01 18:36:28 <unix_infidel> now*
Oct 01 18:36:28 <Kraln> mad ninja skills.
Oct 01 18:36:31 <Kraln> or advertisements.
Oct 01 18:36:39 <tethridge> ah
Oct 01 18:37:00 <ulmen> i read somewhere $13,500 was the total cost of ownership for an iphone for five years ;)
Oct 01 18:37:09 <ttuttle> ulmen: lol
Oct 01 18:37:13 <yakischloba> hardly shocking
Oct 01 18:37:14 <ulmen> so you can afford 5
Oct 01 18:37:15 <ttuttle> ulmen: Wouldn't surprise me.
Oct 01 18:37:17 <unix_infidel> eh, it's nearly 3.
Oct 01 18:37:48 <unix_infidel> the iPhone is much better built that the G1, imho.
Oct 01 18:38:01 <Kraln> I wouldn't know. I can't stand at&t, I develop for ipod touch
Oct 01 18:38:13 <ttuttle> Kraln: AT&T is better than Verizon.
Oct 01 18:38:22 <unix_infidel> will likely get an iTouch in conjunction with the G1.
Oct 01 18:38:30 <Kraln> my sprint deal is > *
Oct 01 18:52:31 <tethridge> Kraln, do you actually have a lot of people that click those ads?
Oct 01 18:56:27 <scatterp> hi can any one tell me when the phone will be released?
Oct 01 18:56:39 <monteslu> oct 22
Oct 01 18:56:50 <scatterp> sucky ok
Oct 01 18:56:57 <monteslu> you can order it now
Oct 01 18:57:03 <monteslu> i did
Oct 01 18:57:09 <scatterp> i just want the firmware :)
Oct 01 18:57:16 <monteslu> download the sdk
Oct 01 18:57:16 <zer0her0> ORDER NOW operators standing by
Oct 01 19:07:31 <wastrel> yeep
Oct 01 19:20:20 <zhobbs> romainguy_: how do I disable animation caching?
Oct 01 19:23:41 <Danikar> To distribute a android application do I just need to give the apk file in the bin directory?
Oct 01 19:23:59 <herriojr> Wow, I just found out about .aidl and parcelables
Oct 01 19:24:06 <herriojr> fantastic stuff
Oct 01 19:24:15 <zhobbs> Danikar: you need to sign it...the one in /bin is a "debug" signed
Oct 01 19:24:34 <zhobbs> used keytool and jarsigner to sign it, there's docs on it somewhere
Oct 01 19:31:47 <Danikar> Thanks
Oct 01 19:31:52 <ttuttle> hey
Oct 01 19:38:53 <romainguy> zhobbs: why do you need to disable it?
Oct 01 19:38:58 <romainguy> (then I'll tell you how to disable it :)
Oct 01 19:39:36 <zhobbs> romainguy: getting OutOfMemoryExceptions when it's trying to pull/generate the cache
Oct 01 19:40:01 <zhobbs> romainguy: well, how does the caching work?
Oct 01 19:40:12 <romainguy> boo. your app must really be using tons of memory
Oct 01 19:40:24 <zhobbs> I have a framelayout and I'm constantly animating different stuff in and out
Oct 01 19:40:41 <zhobbs> what exactly does it cache? every different view that might be coming/going?
Oct 01 19:41:12 <romainguy> android:animationCache="false" on the parent of the animated children
Oct 01 19:41:22 <romainguy> the animation cache copies the animated views into bitmaps
Oct 01 19:41:30 <romainguy> you'll get bad performance without it
Oct 01 19:41:35 <zhobbs> ok, what if the view is destroyed?
Oct 01 19:41:54 <romainguy> the cache goes away
Oct 01 19:41:59 <romainguy> the bitmap is cached in the view
Oct 01 19:42:03 <zhobbs> ok
Oct 01 19:42:04 <romainguy> cf View.getDrawingCache()
Oct 01 19:42:15 <zhobbs> generally these views are destroyed shortly after animation
Oct 01 19:42:24 <romainguy> and you can destroy it manually
Oct 01 19:42:54 <zhobbs> so..in java what can I be doing to leak memory?
Oct 01 19:43:06 <romainguy> holding references to old objects
Oct 01 19:43:27 <romainguy> for instance if you have a static field that keeps a reference to a Context object somehow, you will leak the entire activity on screen rotation
Oct 01 19:44:16 <zhobbs> hmmm
Oct 01 19:44:47 <zhobbs> (side note, I decided it's much easier to handle rotation manually)
Oct 01 19:45:16 <romainguy> handling rotation manually has huge drawbacks
Oct 01 19:45:18 <herriojr> does anyone know of a good idl/parcelable example?
Oct 01 19:45:23 <herriojr> that runs in 1.0?
Oct 01 19:45:38 <zhobbs> romainguy: such as?
Oct 01 19:46:06 <romainguy> you can't use different assets as easily
Oct 01 19:46:18 <zhobbs> yeah, that's true
Oct 01 19:46:32 <zhobbs> dealing with different threads on rotation is a pain though...
Oct 01 19:46:32 <romainguy> we really advice not to handle rotation manually
Oct 01 19:46:47 <zhobbs> really, I was advised that I should when I talked to some googlers
Oct 01 19:46:48 <romainguy> how so?
Oct 01 19:46:55 <romainguy> it depends on your app
Oct 01 19:47:06 <romainguy> for instance it makes sense for Browser to handle it manually
Oct 01 19:47:34 <zhobbs> all my screens are ListViews or WebViews
Oct 01 19:47:48 <romainguy> so what exactly is easier for you to do manually?
Oct 01 19:47:58 <umdk1d3> hmm so i heard rumors that there is a special cache partition on the device (that i guess the browser is making use of), but im not seeing any implementations of java.net.ResponseCache in the framework  :/  wondering if there is some magic way of interfacing with that cache space
Oct 01 19:48:23 <romainguy> umdk1d3: there is a cache partition, but I highly doubt ResponseCache is the way to access it
Oct 01 19:48:27 <zhobbs> when you rotate screen while a thread is running I have to manage the state of that thread much more carefully
Oct 01 19:48:36 * umdk1d3 continues to grep the docs
Oct 01 19:48:56 <romainguy> umdk1d3: I don't know if the public APIs give access to the cache
Oct 01 19:49:38 <umdk1d3> there is android.webkit.CacheManager
Oct 01 19:49:42 <zhobbs> and hand my thread off to onRetainNonConfigurationInstance(), and handle it on the other side
Oct 01 20:02:30 <zhobbs> hmmm.....looks like LocalActivityManager.destroyActivity() doesn't really release any resources...
Oct 01 20:02:39 <zhobbs> that's why I have no memory!
Oct 01 20:04:32 <umdk1d3> bah ill be writing my own cache i guess  :/  because the url can slightly change between sessions, even though its the same image
Oct 01 20:04:48 <umdk1d3> hmm maybe i can create fake urls and just treat them as generic cache keys
Oct 01 20:05:01 <tomgibara> zhobbs: how do you know this?
Oct 01 20:07:28 <zhobbs> tomgibara: well, I'm calling it to destroy an activity and my memory usage doesn't go down
Oct 01 20:07:54 <zhobbs> (sysinfo tab in ddms)
Oct 01 20:08:57 <tomgibara> zhobbs: What if something else is holding onto a reference to the Activity?
Oct 01 20:09:28 <romainguy> zhobbs: make sure you GC your process, the system process and your process again a couple of times
Oct 01 20:09:45 <romainguy> and like tomgibara says, you might just be holding a reference to the Activity somewhere
Oct 01 20:09:51 <romainguy> it's pretty easy to do through the Context class
Oct 01 20:10:00 <zhobbs> hmm
Oct 01 20:12:10 <zhobbs> romainguy: I should manually invoke gc?
Oct 01 20:12:43 <romainguy> no
Oct 01 20:13:11 <romainguy> make sure you don't hold onto the references
Oct 01 20:13:19 * ezak is gone, autoaway/10m (l!on)
Oct 01 20:13:23 <romainguy> I was telling you do force GCs to make sure the memory doesn't go away
Oct 01 20:13:52 <zhobbs> ok
Oct 01 20:15:45 <zhobbs> yeah, it's not going away....let me try to figure out if I'm keeping a reference somwhere...
Oct 01 20:25:30 <fearphage> jasta: you there?
Oct 01 20:25:57 <zhobbs> romainguy:  when I run destroyActivity() it returns a Window, do I need to do something with this Window to release it's resources?
Oct 01 20:33:57 <tomgibara> zhobbs: Finding leaks in a big app is tricky, instead could you tackle it in the opposite direction? Produce a simple test app that repeatedly creates and destroys apps and see if that leaks, if it doesn't you know that your leak isn't related to the LocalActivityManager
Oct 01 20:35:07 <zhobbs> tomgibara: yeah, might not be a bad idea
Oct 01 20:35:51 <zhobbs> tomgibara: I've noticed that they don't use LocalActivityManager.destroyActivity() in their TabHost
Oct 01 20:36:30 <zhobbs> and I found another bug already around destroyActivity() ( http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=879 ), so I'm not ruling out the possibility that it's a bug
Oct 01 20:37:21 <tomgibara> zhobbs: either way a mini test app should provide useful information
Oct 01 20:37:35 <zhobbs> yeah, thanks for the tip...I'll try that out
Oct 01 20:41:11 <Poohba2> anyone here "actually" played with this thing yet
Oct 01 20:42:00 <Disconnect> Poohba1: all the google guys prolly
Oct 01 20:42:10 <Disconnect> and evidently tmob is doing hands-on training in their stores
Oct 01 20:42:20 <Poohba2> they are bias
Oct 01 20:42:25 <Poohba2> i need an unbias opinion
Oct 01 20:42:44 <zer0her0> it's horrible
Oct 01 20:42:48 <Poohba2> lol
Oct 01 20:42:50 <Disconnect> the one i was using sucked
Oct 01 20:42:51 <zer0her0> :-D
Oct 01 20:43:03 <Poohba2> ok... ineed an unbias detailed opinion
Oct 01 20:43:04 * zer0her0 has never touched one
Oct 01 20:43:11 <zer0her0> haha
Oct 01 20:44:52 <Poohba2> i'm a windows mobile user and i like my dash although I am sure it could be better.  it freezes more than i'd like and it runs out of resources... which is why it freezes a lot
Oct 01 20:45:05 <Poohba2> not a lot but enough
Oct 01 20:45:45 <Poohba2> i am just wondering if 2wks will be enough time for me to put it t hrough hell to know if i want to keep it
Oct 01 20:45:48 <Disconnect> so check out engadget's comparisons
Oct 01 20:45:58 <Disconnect> or just get one
Oct 01 20:46:14 <Poohba2> i do a lot of emails and texting
Oct 01 20:46:55 <Poohba2> web browsing
Oct 01 20:47:07 <Poohba2> the thing i do least is talking
Oct 01 20:47:25 <Poohba2> stereo bluetooth (is this available?)
Oct 01 20:47:46 <zhobbs> tomgibara: my small test makes it seem like it's a bug
Oct 01 20:47:57 <zhobbs> damnit....that sucks
Oct 01 20:48:15 <tomgibara> zhobbs: Given your previous comments, not that surprising I guess
Oct 01 20:48:50 <zhobbs> now I'm screwed.....
Oct 01 20:49:01 <tomgibara> why?
Oct 01 20:49:33 <tomgibara> You rely on this class?
Oct 01 20:49:35 <zhobbs> cause my app relies on that....I have 10 different activities all coming through my activitygroup
Oct 01 20:50:06 <tomgibara> What's the reason for using the activity group? I've not used one directly
Oct 01 20:50:18 <zhobbs> I'm using it for tabs
Oct 01 20:50:36 <zhobbs> I can have tabs, and animate each screen in and out within my tabs, etc
Oct 01 20:50:53 <tomgibara> Well, maybe you can take heart from the fact that TabHost seems to work okay
Oct 01 20:51:03 <tomgibara> or perhaps that leaks
Oct 01 20:51:07 <zhobbs> it leaks
Oct 01 20:51:33 <tomgibara> ah, then it sounds like a tricky situation
Oct 01 20:51:33 <zhobbs> it doesn't destroy the other activities, it just accepts that memory hit
Oct 01 20:51:42 <zhobbs> (according to jad)
Oct 01 20:52:13 <tomgibara> you did read the SDK licence agreement didn't you ;)
Oct 01 20:52:31 <zhobbs> of course, that's what makes decompiling it so fun!
Oct 01 20:52:39 <tomgibara> :)
Oct 01 20:53:05 <pardom> how do i get the _id of the list view item from onItemClick()
Oct 01 20:53:19 <tomgibara> zhobbs: So when does memory from a TabHost get reclaimed?
Oct 01 20:53:33 <zhobbs> when the TabHost is destroyed I guess
Oct 01 20:54:18 <tomgibara> It's starting to look grubby...
Oct 01 20:54:41 <zhobbs> I'm not using TabHost directly, in my tab system I just have a constant like MAX_RUNNING_TABS and I will keep at most that many tabs alive
Oct 01 20:57:01 <tomgibara> Is there anyway to embed an activity without using this class?
Oct 01 20:59:05 <zhobbs> tomgibara: not sure, might have to find out :)
Oct 01 21:06:54 <zhobbs> tomgibara: doesn't look like you can...we don't have access to ActivityThread
Oct 01 21:13:36 <herriojr> how come parceable objects no longer have readFromParcel?
Oct 01 21:13:42 <herriojr> was it a security issue?
Oct 01 21:14:12 <gary|> hi, according to the docs, textview manages the scrollbar on it's own. I tried setting more text then can be fitted in the screen, but the scrollbar doesnt show, any ideas?
Oct 01 21:14:24 <tomgibara> zhobbs: I have no idea if this is possible or even sensible, but could you embed your 'actual' activities into 'wrapper' activities (which are memory light in their own right), put your wrappers into your tabbing widget and hold onto them permanently, then reduce memory usage by destroying the widgets that embed the actual activities
Oct 01 21:14:33 <tomgibara> I hope that makes some sort of sense
Oct 01 21:15:59 <zhobbs> How do I go about embedding/destroying in each wrapper activity?
Oct 01 21:17:34 <tomgibara> Produce a widget (backed by the evil LocalActivityManager) that just displays the actual activity and then destroy the widget to release the memory.
Oct 01 21:18:05 <tomgibara> I'm assuming that its possible to release the memory when the widget is destroyed otherwise TabHost would be severely impacted
Oct 01 21:21:19 <tomgibara> I totally concede that its an almost wholly nasty idea, but if your app hangs on it, its the only suggestion I have
Oct 01 21:21:37 <zhobbs> tomgibara: submitted an issue, if you want to see the sample project I used http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=927
Oct 01 21:21:37 <romainguy> that or make sure you do not leak anything
Oct 01 21:22:13 <zhobbs> romainguy: maybe I'm doing something wrong (I hope), a project demonstrating the problem is attached to that issue
Oct 01 21:23:32 <romainguy> well here you go
Oct 01 21:23:37 <romainguy> 			Window win = getLocalActivityManager().startActivity("T2", i);			
Oct 01 21:23:37 <romainguy> 			mView = win.getDecorView();
Oct 01 21:23:37 <romainguy> 			mFrame.addView(mView);
Oct 01 21:23:46 <romainguy> you keep a reference to the activity's decor view
Oct 01 21:23:50 <romainguy> which has a reference to the Context
Oct 01 21:23:54 <romainguy> the Context is the activity itself
Oct 01 21:24:02 <romainguy> since you keep that decor view reference as a field, the GC cannot collect it
Oct 01 21:24:41 <zhobbs> well, mView gets reassigned right, so GC should pick it up?
Oct 01 21:25:54 <romainguy> ok I see
Oct 01 21:26:00 <zhobbs> android is my first java experience....so I haven't really put the time in to study GC, etc
Oct 01 21:27:27 <romainguy> lemme check
Oct 01 21:28:27 <zhobbs> (and if you try to restart tab 2 it doesn't work, bug 879)
Oct 01 21:29:58 <tomgibara> zhobbs: At least you may have a work around - I had to give up on this (I'm pretty sure it's impossible): http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=926
Oct 01 21:30:42 <mats-palats> htc diamond anyone?
Oct 01 21:30:43 <zhobbs> yeah, I'd be very happy with a hacky workaround at this point "_
Oct 01 21:30:46 <zhobbs> :)
Oct 01 21:30:59 <gary|> anyone have any ideas about my problem with textview?
Oct 01 21:31:18 <gary|> it doesnt show the scrollbar when the text is more then what can be displayed in a single screen
Oct 01 21:31:52 <romainguy> put it in a scrollview
Oct 01 21:32:46 <gary|> according to the doc, a textview takes care of the scrollbar
Oct 01 21:33:30 <romainguy> where does it say that?
Oct 01 21:33:45 <gary|> http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/widget/ScrollView.html
Oct 01 21:33:57 <gary|> 2nd last line before summery
Oct 01 21:34:29 <romainguy> I thought TextView supported scrolling only in EditText
Oct 01 21:34:34 <romainguy> but I might be wrong ^^
Oct 01 21:35:03 <gary|> the api examples have the layout in scrollview as well, then a textview inside that element of the layout xml file :/
Oct 01 21:38:37 <androoid> hey
Oct 01 21:39:09 <androoid> i am having problem using udp connection in java to connect to a python/.NET server
Oct 01 21:39:47 <androoid> has anyone here have experience using UDP ?
Oct 01 21:39:54 <herriojr> could we get views to be serializable?
Oct 01 21:40:03 <romainguy> zhobbs: I can't reproduce your bug
Oct 01 21:40:15 <romainguy> when I force GCs of the processes, the memory is reclaimed
Oct 01 21:40:21 <romainguy> and there's no stray activity or objects left
Oct 01 21:41:44 <zhobbs> romainguy: hmm, interesting
Oct 01 21:41:55 <fadden> androoid: have you done anything with port redirection?
Oct 01 21:42:10 <zhobbs> romainguy: what process did you force GC on?
Oct 01 21:42:15 <romainguy> just your process
Oct 01 21:42:17 <androoid> fadden: no
Oct 01 21:42:58 <fadden> Are packets getting out and just not coming back?  Or not getting out at all?
Oct 01 21:43:48 <androoid> I tried a client/server in Java and android it is working fine
Oct 01 21:44:10 <fadden> e.g.: http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=44
Oct 01 21:44:15 <androoid> but I need to have the client speak to a python/.NET server this time and it seems to not be able to connect
Oct 01 21:44:34 <tomgibara> zhobbs: I just ran your test case, same thing: the memory was reclaimed promptly
Oct 01 21:44:56 <fadden> "connect" is kind of a stretch with UDP
Oct 01 21:45:04 <androoid> Let me try a lower port, I am currently in 8007
Oct 01 21:45:33 <androoid> fadden: sorry I do not know the terms, this is my first time attempt with socket programming
Oct 01 21:46:04 <androoid> I know the client is working in Java since I can see the server has received it in the debug console
Oct 01 21:47:43 <zhobbs> tomgibara, romainguy ok...well that's good news, so we forced gc, but that would happen normally whenever needed right?
Oct 01 21:48:11 <romainguy> yes
Oct 01 21:48:16 <romainguy> but there was no need to GC there
Oct 01 21:49:47 <tomgibara> As I read the situation, the simple test app I suggested has demonstrated that there is no memory leak in destroyActivity(). Thus the most likely cause is now a memory leak inside your application.
Oct 01 21:50:13 <romainguy> that's right
Oct 01 21:50:29 <romainguy> I also checked the heap and there was no reference to Tab2 left
Oct 01 21:50:35 <zhobbs> yeah, sorry for wasting your guys' time...gotta figure out what the problem is...
Oct 01 21:51:04 <androoid> fadden: that bug wouldn't pertain to my problem because I am not even using android right now, I am just testing it with Java
Oct 01 21:51:10 <tomgibara> zhobbs: Fine, I'm chugging through javadoc'ing, I'm glad for the occasional distraction!
Oct 01 21:51:51 <fadden> androoid: desktop only, emulator not involved?
Oct 01 21:51:56 <androoid> fadden: yeah
Oct 01 21:52:14 <androoid> I am just using the java datagram class
Oct 01 21:52:23 <romainguy> zhobbs: no problem
Oct 01 21:52:26 <fadden> Alrighty then.
Oct 01 21:52:42 <fadden> What sort of server are you talking to?
Oct 01 21:52:52 <androoid> a Python/C# server
Oct 01 21:52:59 <romainguy> zhobbs: lemme check something that might help you
Oct 01 21:53:14 <androoid> the Python client talks to the C#/Python server fine
Oct 01 21:53:38 <fadden> Python code is bouncing UDP packets off of it?
Oct 01 21:53:54 <androoid> I don't know what bouncing off means
Oct 01 21:54:06 <androoid> It seems like it is not connecting at all
Oct 01 21:54:11 <Dipen> T-Mobile is not accepting any preorder for G1........
Oct 01 21:54:28 <umdk1d3> remember that udp doesnt work in the emulator, at least incoming iirc
Oct 01 21:54:47 <fadden> androoid: TCP and UDP have a common parent (IP) but are independent.  TCP is connection-oriented, UDP is packet-oriented.
Oct 01 21:54:52 <gary|> umdk1d3, the same on from Adullam?
Oct 01 21:54:57 <gary|> s/no/one
Oct 01 21:55:00 <androoid> umdk1d3: the UDP works if it's Java client/server
Oct 01 21:55:02 <gary|> bleh, fail
Oct 01 21:55:03 <fadden> You don't "connect" to a server with UDP; you throw packets at it and it throws some back.
Oct 01 21:55:14 <umdk1d3> qemu acts as a nat, and you could use adb to create port forwarding for TCP
Oct 01 21:55:30 <fadden> umdk1d3: at this point he's totally on desktop Java
Oct 01 21:55:32 <androoid> fadden: Yes, I guess the Python/C# server is not getting the packets the Java client is sending
Oct 01 21:55:35 <umdk1d3> gary|: lol why?
Oct 01 21:55:46 <gary|> cos im there also
Oct 01 21:55:49 <gary|> just wandering
Oct 01 21:56:00 <umdk1d3> pres been dead for awhile  :P
Oct 01 21:56:06 <gary|> under a diff nick ;)
Oct 01 21:56:13 <gary|> i dont go there for that
Oct 01 21:56:29 <gary|> i used to, but i just idle since it seems like an ok place
Oct 01 21:56:40 <umdk1d3> ah cool
Oct 01 21:56:51 <umdk1d3> yea im an ircop there
Oct 01 21:57:27 <fadden> androoid: make sure you're sending them to the same interface that the server is listening on if the server isn't bound to INADDR_ANY
Oct 01 21:58:45 <androoid> what does the same interface mean?
Oct 01 22:00:14 <androoid> I'm just following the http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/networking/datagrams/clientServer.html code
Oct 01 22:01:03 <androoid> and http://www.anddev.org/udp-networking_-_within_the_emulator-t280.html seems to be exactly the same
Oct 01 22:02:29 <kingkung> hello
Oct 01 22:02:59 <kingkung> does anybody know how to make a View object serializable and/or parcelable?
Oct 01 22:03:11 <fadden> androoid: try it with both sides in Java.  If that works, switch over to your Python/C# server.
Oct 01 22:03:18 <ttuttle> hey
Oct 01 22:03:22 <androoid> fadden: i have, and it works
Oct 01 22:03:48 <fadden> So your Java bits can talk to Java bits, and Python/C# bits can talk to Python/C# bits, but neither can talk to the other?
Oct 01 22:03:48 <romainguy> kingkung: you can't really
Oct 01 22:04:02 <androoid> fadden: yes
Oct 01 22:04:38 <fadden> If you try to run both servers at the same time, does one fail?
Oct 01 22:04:43 <androoid> yes
Oct 01 22:05:16 <fadden> Beats me.
Oct 01 22:05:26 <androoid> in python, it gives me     raise CannotListenError, (self.interface, self.port, le)
Oct 01 22:05:26 <androoid> twisted.internet.error.CannotListenError: Couldn't listen on any:8007: (10048, '
Oct 01 22:05:26 <androoid> Address already in use').
Oct 01 22:05:32 <kingkung> romainguy: you can't break down the components of a view into smaller structures?
Oct 01 22:05:54 <fadden> androoid: that's a good sign -- means both servers are listening to the same thing.
Oct 01 22:06:04 <romainguy> kingkung: a View always needs a Context and the Context is your Activity
Oct 01 22:06:07 <androoid> yeah I don't know if this is a Java issue or what
Oct 01 22:06:16 <tomgibara> romainguy: On the subject of Parcels what does the mysterious enforceInterface() method do? I'm interested.
Oct 01 22:06:23 <androoid> I tried to google and I have no luck with anyone else running into the same problem
Oct 01 22:06:35 <romainguy> zhobbs: I have a solution for you
Oct 01 22:06:49 <androoid> and it would be hard for me to mess up the code since it is pretty much like 2 lines of code
Oct 01 22:07:14 <romainguy> tomgibara: where is that method?
Oct 01 22:07:24 <zhobbs> romainguy: that'd be great!
Oct 01 22:07:25 <romainguy> ah found it
Oct 01 22:07:26 <tomgibara> On Parcel, it's the only undocumented method on that class.
Oct 01 22:07:34 <kingkung> romainguy: would it be possible to extract the components from a view and re-create it using another context?
Oct 01 22:07:41 <romainguy> tomgibara: no idea, ask Dianne :)
Oct 01 22:07:51 <romainguy> kingkung: you could yes
Oct 01 22:08:14 <romainguy> zhobbs: do you have JDK 1.6?
Oct 01 22:08:17 <tomgibara> romainguy: If I ever get the chance :)
Oct 01 22:08:20 <zhobbs> romainguy: yes
Oct 01 22:08:25 <romainguy> tomgibara: on the groups
Oct 01 22:08:27 <romainguy> zhobbs: excellent
Oct 01 22:08:28 <kingkung> romainguy: i guess that's what i'm asking... is there a good/documented way to break down the components/children of a view and communicate it to another activity
Oct 01 22:08:52 <kingkung> romainguy: to be recreated
Oct 01 22:09:07 <romainguy> kingkung: no, there is not, but what exactly are you trying to do?
Oct 01 22:09:30 <tomgibara> romainguy: I think on the groups, she has more important posts to answer - not my simple curiosities :)
Oct 01 22:09:45 <romainguy> zhobbs: start with a adb shell kill -10 PID
Oct 01 22:09:53 <romainguy> where PID is the process id of your app
Oct 01 22:10:05 <androoid> fadden: do you know is there any way I can trace the actual packet somehow?
Oct 01 22:10:07 <romainguy> then look at the output of adb lolcat
Oct 01 22:10:13 <romainguy> you will see two file paths
Oct 01 22:10:19 <kingkung> romainguy: i would like to define a view in a separate process and be able to communicate it through a service to my main process to display
Oct 01 22:10:31 <romainguy> something like /data/misc/heap-dump-1234.hprof
Oct 01 22:10:55 <tomgibara> kingkung: you are best off transmitting the data backing your views, not the views themselves
Oct 01 22:10:56 <romainguy> one has a the "head" suffix
Oct 01 22:11:06 <romainguy> you need to concat them by putting the head file first
Oct 01 22:11:15 <romainguy> something like cat head rest > result.hprof
Oct 01 22:11:29 <romainguy> then from your JDK you can run "hat result.hprof"
Oct 01 22:11:34 <kingkung> tomgibara: what do you mean the data backing my views?  i assume you mean something other than the data within the views
Oct 01 22:11:44 <romainguy> that will open a webserver at http://localhost:7000 which will show you the content of the VM heap
Oct 01 22:11:51 <romainguy> there you can track down leaks
Oct 01 22:12:18 <fadden> androoid: you can try to use a packet sniffer (wikipedia has some links).
Oct 01 22:13:30 <tomgibara> kingkung: I mean that it isn't practical to 'move' views to/from services. You need to transmit the 'logical' data that the views are displaying
Oct 01 22:13:34 <zhobbs> romainguy: on logcat I got: hprof: can't open /data/misc/heap-dump-tm1222899020-pid20453.hprof: Permission denied.
Oct 01 22:13:48 <zhobbs> romainguy: but I don't see that file in /data/misc
Oct 01 22:13:59 <fadden> chmod 777 /data/misc ?
Oct 01 22:14:51 <romainguy> ooh
Oct 01 22:14:54 <romainguy> let me try with the SDK
Oct 01 22:15:01 <smacky_wolf> Hey all!
Oct 01 22:15:03 <zhobbs> romainguy: ok, chmod got me the file
Oct 01 22:15:07 <romainguy> cool
Oct 01 22:16:20 <smacky_wolf> Here's a question: is there any reason that android would not be able to support extra bluetooth profiles (specifically A2DP or stereo audio) or is it just a hardware based limitation?
Oct 01 22:17:16 <unix_infidel> no a2dp.
Oct 01 22:17:38 <smacky_wolf> ...not quite the question
Oct 01 22:18:50 <zhobbs> romainguy: can't find hat
Oct 01 22:18:59 <romainguy> it's in the JDK 6
Oct 01 22:19:28 <romainguy> you can also download it here: https://hat.dev.java.net/
Oct 01 22:19:48 <romainguy> it's probably called jhat
Oct 01 22:20:02 <zhobbs> ahh, there it is
Oct 01 22:20:30 <zhobbs> cat heap-dump-tm1222899289-pid20096.hprof-head heap-dump-tm1222899289-pid20096.hprof > result.hprof
Oct 01 22:20:40 <zhobbs> jhat result.hprof
Oct 01 22:20:49 <zhobbs> Reading from result.hprof...
Oct 01 22:20:49 <zhobbs> java.io.IOException: Version string not recognized at byte 17
Oct 01 22:20:53 <romainguy> doh!
Oct 01 22:27:04 <herriojr> tomgibara: if you write a wrapper around the view to make it parcelable, wouldn't you have to break it down into components to send it anyway?
Oct 01 22:27:19 <herriojr> meaning break it into atomic components
Oct 01 22:27:26 <herriojr> int, byte, etc.
Oct 01 22:27:47 <rayado> parcelable is pass-by-value, so it would become a different View each time it crosses a process boundary
Oct 01 22:27:52 <zhobbs> herriojr: not really, if it's a text view just send the text and recreate the textview on the other side
Oct 01 22:28:09 <herriojr> but what if you don't know that it is a text view that is going to be displayed
Oct 01 22:28:16 <tomgibara> herriojr: I'm saying that you don't want to send the view
Oct 01 22:28:19 <rayado> and anyway, there are way too many calls between views to just remote them all
Oct 01 22:28:20 <herriojr> ok
Oct 01 22:29:33 <zhobbs> romainguy: would an animation listener on a View keep that activity alive?
Oct 01 22:29:55 <zhobbs> actually, the listener is on the animation not the view
Oct 01 22:30:00 <romainguy> depends on how the animation listener is defined
Oct 01 22:31:09 <zhobbs> romainguy: any ideas on the heap dump?
Oct 01 22:31:21 <romainguy> zhobbs: looking :)
Oct 01 22:31:25 <romainguy> but nothing so far
Oct 01 22:31:55 <zhobbs> have you done that before with dalvik?
Oct 01 22:32:06 <romainguy> many many many many times
Oct 01 22:32:28 <romainguy> but we use an internal tool to analyze the heap dump
Oct 01 22:32:35 <zhobbs> ahh
Oct 01 22:32:45 <zhobbs> want an apk? :)
Oct 01 22:32:45 <romainguy> JProfiler definitely used to work but I guess we changed the format since then
Oct 01 22:34:15 <tomgibara> zhobbs: I was really surprised when I found out that a trivial app uses 2M of dirty private memory. I assumed i had a memory leak in an app until I found that out. Is it possible that your app is simply using a lot of memory?
Oct 01 22:35:39 <zhobbs> tomgibara: sure, but the problem is the amount of memory I'm using never goes down
Oct 01 22:36:10 <zhobbs> I open a webview activity, 8 MB more memory....I leave it, I see in the log it's destroyed, but I'm never getting that 8 meg back
Oct 01 22:36:11 <romainguy> zhobbs: are you looking at the heap size or the actual usage of the heap?
Oct 01 22:36:26 <romainguy> the heap will not shrink down
Oct 01 22:36:36 <zhobbs> ddms, sysinfo, memory usage
Oct 01 22:36:57 <fadden> I saw a nifty demo of Azul's stuff once.  They embedded a web server in the VM.  All sorts of fancy stuff visible by connecting a web browser into it.
Oct 01 22:37:01 <zhobbs> that example app did go down on there after I forced GC on that process a few times
Oct 01 22:37:26 <romainguy> ah
Oct 01 22:37:28 <romainguy> don't look at this
Oct 01 22:37:50 <romainguy> it's more interesting (in this case) to look at the VM heap
Oct 01 22:37:57 <romainguy> just enable the heap updates for your process
Oct 01 22:38:03 <romainguy> and then look in the VM Heap tab
Oct 01 22:38:14 <romainguy> you'll see the heap size vs allocated
Oct 01 22:38:32 <tomgibara> romainguy: That's interesting, the Dalvik heap doesn't shrink under any circumstance?
Oct 01 22:38:53 <romainguy> I don't know of any VM that shrinks the heap actually
Oct 01 22:39:01 <romainguy> fadden could prove me wrong if I'm saying something dumb
Oct 01 22:39:05 <herriojr> tomgibara: ok, then instead of sending the view, send a xml representation
Oct 01 22:39:11 <romainguy> but Java VMs for instance don't shrink the heap
Oct 01 22:39:25 <fadden> Dalvik does -- pages are returned to the system when possible.
Oct 01 22:39:39 <romainguy> fadden: the heap size can shrink?
Oct 01 22:39:45 <tomgibara> romainguy: Yes, I know, I always assumed they relied on the OS to reclaim the unused heap though
Oct 01 22:39:52 <fadden> Not sure that the bounds actually change, but "showmap" will show fewer pages in use.
Oct 01 22:40:07 <romainguy> fadden: doesn't that imply that the GC must compact the heap first?
Oct 01 22:40:23 <fadden> No, just that you have 4096 contiguous bytes of unused space.
Oct 01 22:40:33 <romainguy> ah I was talking about the bounds
Oct 01 22:40:40 <romainguy> not the actual memory used in the system
Oct 01 22:41:07 <tomgibara> fadden: what sort of GC algorithm is it?
Oct 01 22:41:20 <zhobbs> romainguy: hmm, setup updates on my process, can see GC in logcat, but nothing in that heap tab
Oct 01 22:41:44 <fadden> Stone dumb stop-the-world, conservative mark/sweep.
Oct 01 22:41:55 <tomgibara> zhobbs: Hit the GC button
Oct 01 22:42:01 <fadden> Non-compacting too.
Oct 01 22:42:08 <fadden> Needs to be replaced.
Oct 01 22:42:14 * romainguy wants a generational GC :p
Oct 01 22:42:21 <tomgibara> fadden: So that's due to time constraints then
Oct 01 22:43:14 <fadden> New & improved version will appear in some unspecified future release.
Oct 01 22:43:15 <romainguy> tomgibara: see it that way, Android runs fast with a very basic GC, an interpreted VM and non-hw accelerated 2D API :)
Oct 01 22:43:25 <romainguy> now think about what will happen in the next releases :p
Oct 01 22:43:29 <tomgibara> Yes, I remember being impressed by the performance increase Hotspot demonstrated when the introduced a generational GC
Oct 01 22:43:48 <romainguy> well in the case of Android a generational GC might really help applications
Oct 01 22:43:59 <fadden> We mostly get away with the simple GC because we have one app per process, so we don't get conflicting allocation strategies fragmenting things badly.
Oct 01 22:44:01 <romainguy> for instance scroll animations when adapters generates tons of small objects
Oct 01 22:44:13 <romainguy> you often get a stutter due to a 200/300ms GC pause in the middle of a scroll
Oct 01 22:45:24 <herriojr> is the eclipse plugin supposed to auto-generate an interface from my .aidl file?  If so, it doesn't seem to be working and it says that my .java file is in the way of my .aidl file and I must remove one
Oct 01 22:45:40 <tomgibara> I'm looking forward to when someone starts using escape analysis to identify objects that can avoid the heap - I'm not sure what benefit will be gained, but I'm interested to find out
Oct 01 22:46:30 <romainguy> tomgibara: with HotSpot's GC it would probably not matter much
Oct 01 22:46:44 <wastrel> what's gc
Oct 01 22:46:57 <romainguy> allocations are very fast and their use of the eden spaces help a lot with short-lived objects that would be found by local escape analysis
Oct 01 22:47:02 <romainguy> but that'd be interesting to see :))
Oct 01 22:47:29 <gdsx> wastrel: "garbage collector"
Oct 01 22:47:45 <tomgibara> yes, it's precisely because it's not an obvious win that I'm interested
Oct 01 22:47:56 <fadden> Some of the GCs do lots of copying, which is great on desktop systems with fat L2 caches; not so great with the device memory bandwidth.
Oct 01 22:48:39 <fadden> But this sort of stuff is why the longer-lived VMs ship with 57 different user-selectable GCs.
Oct 01 22:48:55 <zhobbs> hmmm, guess I gotta read up on what this all means...not sure what a heap is
Oct 01 22:49:19 <fadden> zhobbs: heap == big pile of memory where objects live
Oct 01 22:49:28 <tomgibara> fadden: I found I could eat away unlimited amounts of time just with the variants that Hotspot exhibited
Oct 01 22:49:30 <gdsx> zhobbs: so, imagine you go to buy some dirt...
Oct 01 22:49:55 <fadden> http://blogs.sun.com/watt/resource/jvm-options-list.html
Oct 01 22:50:05 <romainguy> fadden: I once worked as a contractor on tuning the GC for the servers of a company
Oct 01 22:50:08 <romainguy> that was painful ^^
Oct 01 22:50:13 <umdk1d3> o.o  10-01 15:44:06.406: ERROR/OSNetworkSystem(5185): unclassified errno 99 (Cannot assign requested address)
Oct 01 22:51:01 <tomgibara> GC tuning is so incredibly hard for complex apps (with concurrent and differing allocation profiles) that I learned it's best to produce smaller specialized apps that run in separate processes
Oct 01 22:51:18 <jasta> umdk1d3: well, don't rquest an address that doesn't match any of your interfaces :)
Oct 01 22:51:19 <umdk1d3> which is super odd, because i get that error when im trying to use a legit ip thats on the device--it doesnt return that error when i try a random ip
Oct 01 22:51:21 <tomgibara> Android gets things right in so many ways :)
Oct 01 22:51:27 <umdk1d3> jasta: its behaving opposite
Oct 01 22:52:21 <romainguy> tomgibara: I totally agree with your assessment on GC tuning :)
Oct 01 22:52:26 <jasta> how do you know that the ip corresponds to a local interface?
Oct 01 22:52:50 <zhobbs> so, my heap size is 5.3 MB, 50% used....and according to the sysinfo tab I'm using 16.5 MB memory, what is the extra 10 MB?
Oct 01 22:52:50 <umdk1d3> jasta: im using a WifiInfo and decoding the int it returns into a byte aray, then InetAddress'ing it
Oct 01 22:52:51 <romainguy> tomgibara: that reminds of when I used Xerces on another job and it was causing the VM to run out of perm space
Oct 01 22:53:17 <tomgibara> romainguy: Yes! I've hit that
Oct 01 22:53:25 <jasta> umdk1d3: so you're trying to bind() on the wi-fi interface?
Oct 01 22:53:33 <fadden> zhobbs: "adb shell procrank" and look at PSS; or "adb shell showmap <pid>" and admire the output
Oct 01 22:53:34 <umdk1d3> jasta: i think so lol
Oct 01 22:53:41 <jasta> umdk1d3: what do you mean you think so?
Oct 01 22:53:42 <tomgibara> It does a whole lot of interning (or something, I don't recall)
Oct 01 22:53:48 <wastrel> i'm learning java
Oct 01 22:54:10 <romainguy> tomgibara: actually Xerces compiles XSLT into bytecode in memory and if you load tons of XSLT, you run out of perm space
Oct 01 22:54:18 <umdk1d3> jasta: im decoding the wifi address correctly, and i think that error is happening when something is trying to bind to that ip--im using another lib so im not sure /where/ the error is happening
Oct 01 22:54:39 <tomgibara> romainguy: Yes I was about to say that it was Xalan that tracked it down to
Oct 01 22:54:46 <romainguy> ah yes, Xalan
Oct 01 22:54:50 <romainguy> always get these two mixed up
Oct 01 22:55:13 <jasta> umdk1d3: well, my advice is to side-step the lib and try a simpler test of just binding to the interface yourself
Oct 01 22:55:25 <jasta> just to make sure your assumptions are correct :)
Oct 01 22:55:38 <jasta> by the way, what are you doing? :P  i'm curious about all this trickery
Oct 01 22:55:57 <jasta> sounds to me like maybe VoIP? :)
Oct 01 22:56:13 <umdk1d3> lol
Oct 01 22:57:35 <tomgibara> zhobbs: It could be native objects like bitmaps
Oct 01 23:03:54 <jasta> umdk1d3: .....? :)
Oct 01 23:07:21 <umdk1d3> no im not doing voip  :P
Oct 01 23:08:26 <herriojr> through eclipse, how am I supposed to make my .aidl file so that it actually works?
Oct 01 23:08:39 <herriojr> I just create a file and name it myinterface.aidl and that doesn't seem to work
Oct 01 23:08:45 <herriojr> and I have the current eclipse plugin
Oct 01 23:09:08 <herriojr> *android plguin
Oct 01 23:09:11 <herriojr> *plugin
Oct 01 23:10:46 <herriojr> I just keep getting an error on the first line of "bad type"
Oct 01 23:11:44 <herriojr> but if I run aidl.exe manually, it creates the interface
Oct 01 23:16:51 <herriojr> nevermind, I got it to work, it seems to be really sketchy though
Oct 01 23:17:06 <herriojr> I had to move the aidl out into another folder and package and then move it back in
Oct 01 23:30:00 <poetic_folly|G5> down with rapidshare
Oct 01 23:39:34 <illuminum> where is the source for the api demos?
Oct 01 23:39:48 <illuminum> e.g. where do i find example code for a table layout?
Oct 01 23:40:45 <zhobbs> illuminum: $SDK_FOLDER/Samples
Oct 01 23:42:44 <illuminum> thanks
Oct 01 23:45:48 <zhobbs> romainguy: how do I get the animation cache for a View?
Oct 01 23:46:53 <romainguy> getDrawingCache
Oct 01 23:47:03 <romainguy> or use HierarchyViewer and double-click the view
Oct 01 23:47:18 <zhobbs> and is setAnimationCacheEnabled() only relevant for Layout Animations? Cause I'm just doing View.startAnimation()
Oct 01 23:47:40 <romainguy> setAnimationCacheEnabled is relevant to all animations
Oct 01 23:47:43 <romainguy> it's on by default
Oct 01 23:47:47 <romainguy> and you really should keep it on by default
Oct 02 00:29:32 <Disconnect> couple of random questions, for any googlers still awake... why the {} is google doing healthcare docs? (i admit, i signed up, but i've had a rough year) and why doesn't https://google.com have it's own cert?
Oct 02 00:29:43 * Disconnect specializes in off-topic after hours :)
Oct 02 00:30:53 <illuminum> i hate stupid jargon buzzwords
Oct 02 00:30:56 <illuminum> "the cloud"
Oct 02 00:31:03 <ttuttle> == illuminum
Oct 02 00:31:05 <illuminum> fuck the cloud it's teh intarweb
Oct 02 00:31:56 <illuminum> i think jargon is the only language business executives speak
Oct 02 00:31:57 <jasta> the internet is a jargon buzzword too.
Oct 02 00:32:03 <jasta> it used to be called "a network".
Oct 02 00:32:10 <illuminum> because they're too stupid to understand anything else
Oct 02 00:32:28 <Disconnect> the cloud is the thinking internet. i agree tho, until it goes self-assembling its not "the cloud"
Oct 02 00:32:47 <jasta> the "web" is probably the *worst* buzzword ever, but now even geeks use it.
Oct 02 00:33:03 <illuminum> hey if berner's calls it the web so should we
Oct 02 00:33:06 <jasta> because web implies something far more general than it is, and yet, it is more general than even it is defined.
Oct 02 00:33:09 <illuminum> *berners
Oct 02 00:33:33 <Disconnect> ' != "OMG there is an S on the way !" :)
Oct 02 00:34:10 <illuminum> we could create a new term and call it the ubernet
Oct 02 00:34:45 <Disconnect> illuminum: reeks of 'undernet' way back when
Oct 02 00:34:49 <jasta> honestly illuminum, i used to have that attitude about buzzwords but i eventually realized it was just my frustrated feeling of being "let behind" manifesting itself :)
Oct 02 00:34:53 <jasta> left*
Oct 02 00:35:16 <unix_infidel> lol @ jasta being "left behind"
Oct 02 00:35:30 <unix_infidel> a competent developer for a cutting edge mobile platform is certainly not "left behind"
Oct 02 00:35:43 <jasta> that's because i did something about taht feeing
Oct 02 00:35:44 <jasta> feeling*
Oct 02 00:35:51 <Disconnect> heh
Oct 02 00:36:04 <yakischloba> unix_infidel: shh, it'll go straight to his head
Oct 02 00:36:30 <jasta> but really, just a few short years ago i would have thought i would be way too stubborn to learn some new-fangled language like Java.
Oct 02 00:36:34 <illuminum> i resent stupidity more then anything else. i'm in an accounting/business program and my peers speak ignorantly of these subjects but sprinkle buzzwords in their language to make themselves appear knowledgable to the other ignorant peers
Oct 02 00:36:37 <Disconnect> on that topic, any recommendations for resources getting back into "real" programming and back into java now that its past 1.0? (yah well.. i like being a sysadmin. but android is screaming for some filler "core apps" until real devs come along and replace them)
Oct 02 00:37:10 <jasta> real devs?  lol.
Oct 02 00:37:13 <illuminum> just read a tutorial and struggle with an API
Oct 02 00:37:44 <jasta> Disconnect: I recommend anything O'Reilly.  get a challenging, highly technical but general book on the language and its libraries.
Oct 02 00:38:06 * Disconnect last did java work in 1999, and it was unpleasant.
Oct 02 00:38:19 <jasta> do not go for one of those ridiculous "marketable" books that tries to be witty or "easy".
Oct 02 00:38:19 <illuminum> i don't recommend such a thing, in my experience its really hard to reference a paper book when you're on a computer
Oct 02 00:38:25 <Disconnect> jasta: thats what i was planning actually :)
Oct 02 00:38:47 <jasta> illuminum: nonsense.  paper books are not for reference, they are for reading and digesting.
Oct 02 00:38:51 <illuminum> just pick an API you went to develop for, read a tutorial for hello world, and fight against the API until you climb the learning curve past the inflection point
Oct 02 00:38:52 <jasta> and they are very, very important.
Oct 02 00:38:59 <yakischloba> I use paper books for reference all the time
Oct 02 00:39:22 <Disconnect> illuminum: strangely enough, thats what i'm doing with android. but programming methodology (and OOP in general) has changed a -lot- in 10 years.
Oct 02 00:39:25 <mpardo> does android provide a scalar sqlite function
Oct 02 00:39:26 <jasta> illuminum: is that how you learned PHP?
Oct 02 00:39:28 <jasta> *jab*
Oct 02 00:39:30 <Disconnect> lol
Oct 02 00:39:40 <illuminum> well i'm probably just retarded, i can't stare downwards i'm so used to looking straight ahead at the monitor
Oct 02 00:40:04 <yakischloba> get a book stand or something
Oct 02 00:40:11 <illuminum> yeah that's how i learned php and every other language
Oct 02 00:40:12 <jasta> i've been down the path of just struggling "on my own" to learn things
Oct 02 00:40:12 <unix_infidel> books are portable. you can go to a bar, get rejected by a blonde and learn about scalar functions...
Oct 02 00:40:18 <unix_infidel> all at the same time!
Oct 02 00:40:28 <jasta> more so than most developers, i'd say, and i'm here to tell you that it is not an effective strategy.
Oct 02 00:40:47 * Disconnect has yet to learn a language from a book.. but a good book provides an amazing intro to the -methodology- of a language
Oct 02 00:40:53 <Disconnect> unix_infidel: lol
Oct 02 00:41:00 <jasta> it's an agonizing waste of time.  getting a good, thorough technical book and *reading it* is one of the better ways to learn complex topics.
Oct 02 00:41:21 * Disconnect tends to leap up from books mid-paragraph and go try stuff.
Oct 02 00:41:21 <romainguy> yeah, the key part is to find a *good* book
Oct 02 00:41:26 <Disconnect> sometimes it catches fire. thats always neat.
Oct 02 00:41:29 <illuminum> have you taken a basic cs course?
Oct 02 00:41:30 <romainguy> there are not that many good technical books out there :)
Oct 02 00:41:40 <jasta> illuminum: me?
Oct 02 00:41:44 <illuminum> no, disconnect
Oct 02 00:41:46 * Disconnect was pretty sure he'd bricked his dtivo at one point
Oct 02 00:41:52 <unix_infidel> I find a lot of technical books are wordy.
Oct 02 00:42:06 <yakischloba> and perhaps their content merits that
Oct 02 00:42:07 <Disconnect> no fire in that one, but still. if it won't boot and you might have broken the bootloader.....
Oct 02 00:42:08 <illuminum> yeah i feel the same way unix, i feel like i'm wasting my time
Oct 02 00:42:12 <romainguy> or just drag on with the most basic stuff
Oct 02 00:42:17 <romainguy> I was reading a book about Flex
Oct 02 00:42:19 <illuminum> having an objective helps me ask the right questions
Oct 02 00:42:29 <romainguy> it spent the first 4 or 5 chapters explaining variables and for loops
Oct 02 00:42:29 <illuminum> and having the internet helps me get the right answers
Oct 02 00:42:42 * Disconnect did brick some old ipaqs. back when compaq made them -and- (left-hand/right-hand) sponsored a group that hacked linux/etc on them
Oct 02 00:42:56 <unix_infidel> romainguy: which is why I prefer buying from authors who split up concepts into 3 100page volumes.
Oct 02 00:43:01 <illuminum> as long as you've taken basic cs and know about object-oriented principles you're fine
Oct 02 00:43:10 <Disconnect> romainguy: clearly that was an "intro to programming with flex" book instead of an "intro to flex for programmers" book :)
Oct 02 00:43:28 <romainguy> Disconnect: unfortunately yes, even though the book wasn't presented as such :))
Oct 02 00:43:34 <Disconnect> heh
Oct 02 00:43:55 * Disconnect learned OOP from oreilly, and java too, so.. prolly need to get updated books now tho
Oct 02 00:43:55 <romainguy> unix_infidel: agreed, that's also why I prefer focused books (like O'Reilly series, for instance Java I/O, Java Threads, etc.)
Oct 02 00:44:24 <illuminum> i've got a subscription to safari which i rarely use :/
Oct 02 00:44:24 <Disconnect> and here's your random weird crap from another channel: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2371/2203785937_fc2d5d7097_o.jpg (via #linpeople)
Oct 02 00:44:32 <unix_infidel> romainguy: those are fairly advanced topics for me :-)
Oct 02 00:44:47 * Disconnect will wander over to borders tomorrow and see what presents itself
Oct 02 00:45:03 <romainguy> Disconnect: go buy my book :)
Oct 02 00:45:11 <Disconnect> which one?
Oct 02 00:45:16 <romainguy> the royalties have been pretty disappointing lately ^^
Oct 02 00:45:26 <fadden> "ListView for Dummies" ?
Oct 02 00:45:29 <yakischloba> I'm disappointed at how the level of conversation in this channel has degraded to small talk :(
Oct 02 00:45:32 <romainguy> Filthy Rich Clients
Oct 02 00:45:46 <romainguy> yakischloba: that unfortunately happens a lot with human beings
Oct 02 00:46:00 <Disconnect> esp in the evening, when nobody is proposing on-topic discussion topics
Oct 02 00:46:02 <yakischloba> romainguy: it was kept up for a long time
Oct 02 00:46:05 <romainguy> fadden: that's a good idea, "Taming ListView"
Oct 02 00:46:07 <Disconnect> its called "social bonding"
Oct 02 00:46:23 <Disconnect> romainguy: you aren't the apress android author are you?
Oct 02 00:46:29 <romainguy> no I'm not
Oct 02 00:46:44 <romainguy> I work on the Android team, along with fadden for instance
Oct 02 00:46:52 <yakischloba> romainguy: I'm disappointed that I haven't been able to contribute with relevant conversation but I certainly enjoyed and learned a lot from the higher level discussion while it lasted
Oct 02 00:46:56 <Disconnect> ah ok.
Oct 02 00:47:22 <Disconnect> fwiw all day its been way more on-topic than most channels manage.
Oct 02 00:47:57 <yakischloba> yeah, but 99% of channels usually aren't even worth looking at so that its not saying much.
Oct 02 00:48:07 <unix_infidel> Before September 23rd this chan was fairly inactive.
Oct 02 00:48:14 <yakischloba> and happily so
Oct 02 00:48:15 <yakischloba> ;)
Oct 02 00:48:47 <yakischloba> I could count on that I would probably learn something every time I looked at what had been said
Oct 02 00:48:57 * Disconnect looked around - #linpeople is random (standard), #tivo is dead (standardish), #handhelds is mostly dead (std), #maemo is on battery selection - liion vs etc).. we're not doing bad to be close to the topic at hand.
Oct 02 00:49:04 <yakischloba> instead of seeing people asking if they can run their SNES roms on the g1 and stupid shit
Oct 02 00:49:15 <Disconnect> lol
Oct 02 00:49:36 <fadden> You *can* run your SNES ROMs.  You just need this special cable.
Oct 02 00:49:44 <fadden> I'll sell it to you for US$500K.
Oct 02 00:49:48 <Disconnect> fadden: does it have a plug at one end for 220V?
Oct 02 00:49:56 <Disconnect> cuz thats the best kind of special cable
Oct 02 00:50:09 <fadden> It has a plug at one end for a SNES.
Oct 02 00:50:48 <fadden> If you're really nice I'll throw in an XBAND. :-)
Oct 02 00:51:35 <Disconnect> oh and #puppet is on-topic 100%
Oct 02 00:51:45 * Disconnect missed the other window hiding in the corner
Oct 02 00:52:01 * unix_infidel hopes for a decent reader (pdf, doc, odf, etc)
Oct 02 00:53:07 <Disconnect> i'm actually expecting someone to go the mobipocket route (with drm) .. it might take a while but there is some money to be made there
Oct 02 00:53:33 <illuminum> what's mobipocket
Oct 02 00:54:12 <illuminum> hey what does google do if opensource apps that purposefully bypass drm get on market and rate highly among users
Oct 02 00:54:24 <Disconnect> in short, the most popular ebook format out there. (literally 100,000s of actual in-copyright modern books)
Oct 02 00:54:28 <illuminum> i imagine that could be a pandoras box that dooms android to failure the moment google caves and takes action
Oct 02 00:54:49 * Disconnect has an eink ebook reader
Oct 02 00:56:09 <Disconnect> some (smarter) publishers (ahem baen) are going drm-free (including straight pdf format) but a lot still want some basic drm. to get the algo you need to contract, and once you do that you get each device an ID (already got an IMEI->id algo) and the download server crypts the book to that id (and up to - iirc - 4 others)
Oct 02 00:56:21 <illuminum> what package/class should i be looking at for consuming xml feeds
Oct 02 00:56:26 <Disconnect> it does allow for time-limited lending libraries too, which is kinda neat
Oct 02 00:56:41 <illuminum> drm isn't neat its stupid
Oct 02 00:56:55 <illuminum> it's just backwards technology that does the opposite of adding value
Oct 02 00:57:33 <Disconnect> so explain an ebook lending (LENDING) library to me that doesn't use drm...
Oct 02 00:58:52 <illuminum> no such thing imo, once the data has manifested itself on the users device it has essentially created a clone of itself. it's not like a physical object that exists in one place at one time.
Oct 02 00:59:12 <Disconnect> ...right. so drm in this case gives you -more- capabilities (loaning)
Oct 02 00:59:16 <illuminum> the fundamentals are different and until the powers that be realize that and come up with appropriate business models they'll just inevitably fail
Oct 02 01:00:06 <Disconnect> ....cuz the dvd manufacturers are hurting so much right now. (or even ebooks - baen sales went -up- when they comitted to releasing most of their catalog in electronic formats)
Oct 02 01:00:11 <illuminum> anyone know what package/class I should look to for consuming feeds or sending http requests e.g. REST?
Oct 02 01:00:22 <wastrel> drm is bad
Oct 02 01:00:45 <wastrel> pdf is a shitty format for ebooks tho
Oct 02 01:01:04 <illuminum> i like utf8, thats the best ebook format :)
Oct 02 01:01:13 * Disconnect is not surprised to find the authors here silent on the topic
Oct 02 01:01:15 <wastrel> mobipocket is bad ugh
Oct 02 01:01:30 <wastrel> i bought a mobipocket book for palm
Oct 02 01:01:36 <gdsx> wastrel: DRM isn't always bad
Oct 02 01:01:39 <Disconnect> go to work and tell them to keep your paycheck, you'll work for donations.. then talk about drm being nothing but evil
Oct 02 01:01:41 <wastrel> no, it's always bad
Oct 02 01:01:54 <gdsx> wastrel: so, let's say I've got a part design drawn up in Autocad
Oct 02 01:02:16 <illuminum> disconnect while we're at it let's tell them to stifle innovation and keep the proprietary software hoarders in business because we don't want to disrupt coders jobs
Oct 02 01:02:17 <gdsx> wastrel: and I want to send that design to be manufactured, but I don't want the manufacturer to be able to inadvertently give the design to my competitor
Oct 02 01:02:20 <gdsx> wastrel: what do I do?
Oct 02 01:02:40 <illuminum> that's crap. the industry needs to change to fit IT. IT doesn't need to change to fit deprecated business models.
Oct 02 01:02:45 <illuminum> and IT won't change.
Oct 02 01:02:48 <illuminum> it's a matter of fact
Oct 02 01:02:51 <jasta> back :)
Oct 02 01:02:52 <illuminum> face reality
Oct 02 01:03:07 <unix_infidel> gdsx: well the easy way out would've been to say if DRM increases accesibility of the content (with viable competitors in the marketplace) then it's not such a bad thing.
Oct 02 01:03:12 <Disconnect> he's so cute. i remember being in school too...
Oct 02 01:03:33 <jasta> hehe
Oct 02 01:03:33 <wastrel> i dunno what do you do?
Oct 02 01:03:42 <gdsx> wastrel: rights management
Oct 02 01:03:48 <jasta> back to hacking on Five
Oct 02 01:03:49 <wastrel> i bought a mobipocket book - based on rave reviews of the title
Oct 02 01:03:55 <wastrel> and had to install their shitty reader
Oct 02 01:04:04 <jasta> hoping to push out some more proof of concept code tonight for testing on real devices ;0
Oct 02 01:04:06 <wastrel> which is slow, user unfriendly and eats battery
Oct 02 01:04:10 <gdsx> wastrel: I'm not saying that it's always good.  Far from it.  It's just not always bad
Oct 02 01:04:19 <Disconnect> jasta: can you push me a real device? i'm a good betatester :)
Oct 02 01:04:21 <wastrel> and the publisher had locked the justification setting on - overrriding user preferences
Oct 02 01:04:32 <wastrel> so the words were   spaced   out   really   weird
Oct 02 01:04:33 <jasta> Disconnect: i don't have one, it's just that googlers seem to have been given the green light to be helpful :)
Oct 02 01:04:38 <wastrel> on the pda screen
Oct 02 01:04:40 <Disconnect> lol
Oct 02 01:04:40 <jasta> also, the ADC winners have them
Oct 02 01:04:46 <wastrel> it was a shitty product
Oct 02 01:04:48 <jasta> so the cats outta the bag
Oct 02 01:04:56 <Disconnect> push me a google job offer? :)
Oct 02 01:05:03 <wastrel> so i downloaded the drm-free version from a fileserver
Oct 02 01:05:16 <jasta> Disconnect: participate in the second ADC then.
Oct 02 01:05:16 <romainguy> Disconnect: send your resume :p
Oct 02 01:05:19 <wastrel> the pirates provide a better product
Oct 02 01:05:26 <gdsx> wastrel: if you're trying to convince me of something, you're preaching to the choir
Oct 02 01:05:33 <romainguy> wastrel: well I've seen the contrary
Oct 02 01:05:33 <jasta> it's no mystery that google hires right out of these challenges that they do
Oct 02 01:05:37 <wastrel> that's specifically about mobipocket :]
Oct 02 01:05:39 <romainguy> for instance with my Sony ebook reader
Oct 02 01:05:40 <Disconnect> romainguy: unfortunately i'm a fan of washdc
Oct 02 01:05:45 <Disconnect> its where all my stuff is, for one
Oct 02 01:05:48 <illuminum> web services web services can someone link me or tell me what package or class to use--this is android  related
Oct 02 01:05:50 <romainguy> the windows tool is annoying to me because I use a mac
Oct 02 01:06:09 <romainguy> but the non-official tools suck :)
Oct 02 01:06:13 <jasta> Google Summer of Code, for instance, is an impressively smart HR tactic :)
Oct 02 01:06:14 * Disconnect bought a cybook rather than sony cuz .. ummm.. the sony kinda sucked :)
Oct 02 01:06:35 <romainguy> Disconnect: depends what you're looking for :)
Oct 02 01:06:39 <Disconnect> windows tools, -severely- limited formats, etc.
Oct 02 01:06:52 <Disconnect> cybook even had the newer eink revision
Oct 02 01:06:55 <romainguy> bah :)
Oct 02 01:06:58 <Disconnect> i can turn pages in under 5 seconds :)
Oct 02 01:07:18 * Disconnect messed with a sony reader - cybook can't read while charging (sighhhh) but otherwise.. 
Oct 02 01:07:33 <romainguy> again depends what you're looking for
Oct 02 01:07:44 <romainguy> I don't give a shit about the format it can read
Oct 02 01:07:56 <Disconnect> i literally could not get a solid page-flip out of the sony, even on the user's guide. it would hang up long enough that i'd hit it again, then it'd flip (eventually) 2 pages or more. or it'd not read the push and i'd just sit there, looking bored.
Oct 02 01:07:58 <romainguy> but I care about the device being small and light ^^
Oct 02 01:08:13 <romainguy> Disconnect: weird, I didn't have this issue on mine
Oct 02 01:08:16 <Disconnect> ...go compare cybook to sony. its -way- thinner and lighter actually :)
Oct 02 01:08:21 <romainguy> but I have the second version
Oct 02 01:08:34 <Disconnect> ('long enough' might have been anywhere from 1-2 seconds)
Oct 02 01:08:57 <romainguy> thinner?
Oct 02 01:09:55 <Disconnect> yep
Oct 02 01:10:07 <romainguy> errr
Oct 02 01:10:10 * Disconnect found a great side by side comparison but its an expired/camped domain :(
Oct 02 01:10:48 <Disconnect> 13mm thick vs 8.5
Oct 02 01:10:52 <Disconnect> its thinner
Oct 02 01:10:54 <Disconnect> (cybook is)
Oct 02 01:10:57 <Disconnect> http://bookeen.com/specs/ebook-hardware.aspx
Oct 02 01:11:02 <wastrel> ebook readers are still too small
Oct 02 01:11:17 <romainguy> Disconnect: are you comparing with the first reader?
Oct 02 01:11:23 <wastrel> i read novels on my palm pda - i want something bigger for technical docs and pdf
Oct 02 01:11:27 <romainguy> because mine is 0.3" thick
Oct 02 01:11:31 <romainguy> exactly the same as the cybook
Oct 02 01:11:46 <Disconnect> oooh might be, looking at the url
Oct 02 01:11:52 <Disconnect> 505 is newer?
Oct 02 01:11:57 <romainguy> yes
Oct 02 01:12:07 <romainguy> the cybook is a tad lighter though
Oct 02 01:12:11 <Disconnect> ok sony is 1mm thinner
Oct 02 01:12:14 <romainguy> although I doubt I could feel the difference
Oct 02 01:12:20 <romainguy> anyway
Oct 02 01:12:30 <romainguy> the cybook looks like a book reader I would have bought too :)
Oct 02 01:12:37 <Disconnect> cybook feels like a plastic prop :) but eink screens (on all readers) are too fragile still :(
Oct 02 01:12:59 <romainguy> I would love to have the Kindle's features in my Sony :)
Oct 02 01:13:52 <Disconnect> i'm a fan of being able to read books that don't come off the sony management approved list ;)
Oct 02 01:14:16 <romainguy> as long as I can get enough novels to keep me busy, I couldn't care less :))
Oct 02 01:14:49 <jasta> im unusually old fashioned on books.  i guess i just like conceptually having a real book :)
Oct 02 01:14:51 <Disconnect> i -really- wanted to like the kindle.. but omg.. handle one sometime, its a fischer-price disaster..
Oct 02 01:15:00 <romainguy> jasta: I actually prefer real books by far
Oct 02 01:15:03 <Disconnect> jasta: i tend to do both for books i -really- like
Oct 02 01:15:18 <romainguy> jasta: *but* they're annoying on a 14 hours plane ride to France for instance :)
Oct 02 01:15:21 <Disconnect> but the cybook (or sony :) ..) is way way more useful on metro, for example
Oct 02 01:15:22 <Disconnect> heh
Oct 02 01:15:30 <romainguy> I actually happily mix ebooks, audiobooks and real books
Oct 02 01:15:43 <jasta> romainguy: i nearly lost it on my flight to Ireland :)
Oct 02 01:15:50 <jasta> i don't handle confined spaces like that well
Oct 02 01:15:54 * Disconnect is annoyed - 3" anthology only came in ebook twice.
Oct 02 01:15:58 <romainguy> for instance one of my biggest frustrations is that I left my 1000+ books collection in France ))
Oct 02 01:16:00 <Disconnect> nintendo ds and mario
Oct 02 01:16:01 <jasta> i start really losing it about the last 2 hours or so
Oct 02 01:16:10 <Disconnect> or lots of booze and coffee
Oct 02 01:16:40 <jasta> i was surprised to find that Delta's in-seat entertainment thing had good music on it though
Oct 02 01:16:53 * Disconnect was a smoker on an 8.5 hour flight to hawaii a few years back, that sucked. at least it was first class (not my fault, back when twa existed i was consulting on changable tickets.. if you kept the original flight you got upgraded)
Oct 02 01:17:04 <jasta> Flogging Molly, Arctic Monkeys, Cold War Kids, Arcade Fire...who'd have known?
Oct 02 01:17:09 <Disconnect> nice
Oct 02 01:17:53 <jasta> and they had an episode of The Office
Oct 02 01:18:14 <unix_infidel> jasta: you know something's wrong when content is cheaper than booze.
Oct 02 01:18:15 <romainguy> jasta: Air France and Virgin are honestly the best to go to Europe
Oct 02 01:18:15 <jasta> the only reason i don't just completely melt down is that i have my gf with me tho
Oct 02 01:18:27 <jasta> romainguy: the Delta flight we had was operated by Air France
Oct 02 01:18:42 <romainguy> here you go :)
Oct 02 01:18:46 <jasta> unix_infidel: on Alaskan Airlines (which i use often for short flights) you get free beer
Oct 02 01:19:00 <jasta> and they are really generous with it.  you can sometimes get full bottles
Oct 02 01:19:13 <jasta> but you have to flirt a little :)
Oct 02 01:19:18 <jasta> (read: just be nice)
Oct 02 01:20:12 <jasta> and it's good beer too.  they have microbrews from WA, OR, and CA.
Oct 02 01:20:31 <jasta> which are of course the 3 best states for microbrews in all of the US :)
Oct 02 01:25:08 <unix_infidel> jasta: dem is fightin words.
Oct 02 01:27:11 <jasta> bring it on :)
Oct 02 01:27:30 <jasta> the pacific northwest in particular is very good at Amber beers, which i love.
Oct 02 01:27:50 <jasta> i couldn't even stomach beer until i had Mac & Jack's, and even still i really don't like that much variety
Oct 02 01:27:55 <jasta> but ambers are delicious ;)
Oct 02 01:31:40 <jasta> what the hell is the AndroidHttpClient?
Oct 02 01:34:39 <jasta> it's undocumented...hmmm
Oct 02 01:37:26 <jasta> pawalls: yo, you gonna be around later tonight?
Oct 02 01:44:33 <huxu> ive been running through tutorials and searching the samples, and as im building my dream app i have one question... lets say i have a list of "Item 1, Item 2, Item3" i am at the point of then wanting to call on different activities after those items are clicked, such as clicking on Item 1 will then go to a ListActivity to list out contacts.... how would this be done?
Oct 02 01:48:19 <Disconnect> jasta: 1 word: duclaw.com
Oct 02 01:48:42 <jasta> huxu: through startActivity and Intents.
Oct 02 01:48:52 <jasta> Intents are a very powerful general concept in Android, go read about them before proceeding :)
Oct 02 01:49:24 <huxu> ok i did look at them a little bit, but i dont understand how i would do an intent to an activity i create
Oct 02 01:49:54 <jasta> well, youc an hardcode a particular class to load, although that's not always the best approach
Oct 02 01:50:09 <jasta> for your simple app, sure, just acll new Intent(this, Foo.class)
Oct 02 01:50:25 <jasta> but if you get time, return to intent filters and learn about how it all works
Oct 02 01:50:30 <ttuttle> jasta: Well, it's better to hardcode it within an app, for speed.
Oct 02 01:50:46 <jasta> sometimes it's more appropriate, and sometimes it isn't.
Oct 02 01:52:05 <huxu> thank you!!
Oct 02 01:52:32 <gambler> huxu IntentReceiver is BroadcastReceiver now...beware some of the doco on the net is out of date
Oct 02 01:53:06 <huxu> o ok thanks!
Oct 02 01:56:13 <huxu> what are the return values of position? in onListItemClick?
Oct 02 01:57:06 <huxu> is it simple 0, 1, 2 for Item 1, Item 2, Item 3 going from top to bottom?
Oct 02 01:57:19 <f00f-> yeah
Oct 02 01:57:22 <f00f-> position from top
Oct 02 01:57:26 <jasta> they refer to the adapter's position.
Oct 02 01:57:50 <f00f-> well, right
Oct 02 01:57:55 <f00f-> gotta think in abstract terms :)
Oct 02 01:58:04 <jasta> yes, and you really should.
Oct 02 01:58:32 <jasta> huxu: Lists are enormously complex in Android because of two huge optimizations Android does for you.  So it's important to understand the general abstractions that android is forcing you to use.
Oct 02 01:58:56 <huxu> ok
Oct 02 01:59:05 <jasta> most notably, the concept of an adapter to the list.  the list is an inherent UI component and does not observe your data's paradigms.  the adapter does, however.
Oct 02 01:59:21 <jasta> so it's important to think of your data always in terms of the adapter and never in terms of the listview
Oct 02 02:00:36 <jasta> those two huge optimizatins i mentioned are that ListView's "recycle" views so that it is not allocating new views when scrolling around, and also that it does not operate on the entire list, merely the portion of which that can be displayed on screen
Oct 02 02:01:34 <f00f-> the ViewHolder concept! i love it.
Oct 02 02:01:37 <jasta> the adapter is a way to adapt your list data to this model, so everything ultimately relates back to it.
Oct 02 02:02:32 <huxu> ok, so if im doing this Cursor c = (Cursor) mAdapter.getItem(position) what will c be?!
Oct 02 02:02:51 <jasta> uhh.
Oct 02 02:03:23 <jasta> why would your list items be cursors?
Oct 02 02:04:19 <huxu> i dunno... i was trying to follow the youtube video where Dan Morrill shows how to build a calling application but trying to modify it with other code
Oct 02 02:04:40 <jasta> don't follow that video, it's way too old
Oct 02 02:04:52 <huxu> ok
Oct 02 02:04:54 <jasta> look at the ApiDemos to get an idea, but really just pay attention to this concept of the adapter
Oct 02 02:05:01 <jasta> it will burn you bad if you ignore the complexity here
Oct 02 02:05:09 <huxu> ok
Oct 02 02:05:57 <jasta> but to answer your question more succinctly, the position given in onItemClick is the adapter's position, such that adapter.getItem(n) will yield your nth list item's data.
Oct 02 02:06:39 <huxu> starting from 1 or 0
Oct 02 02:06:47 <jasta> starting from 0 of course
Oct 02 02:06:54 <huxu> just checkiin
Oct 02 02:08:41 <f00f-> jdbc starts at 1, everything else in java.util is 0-offset iirc
Oct 02 02:28:34 <ttuttle> SanMehat: /me just built a 4G RAID0 out of 4 1G USB sticks.
Oct 02 02:30:23 <f00f-> oh no
Oct 02 02:30:26 <f00f-> you got that deal from woot?
Oct 02 02:30:54 <Disconnect> ttuttle: you should hang out with nn. he's doing crazy crap like that too, on creepy crippled embedded platforms
Oct 02 02:31:05 <ttuttle> f00f-: Nah, VMware was giving them out at an info session.
Oct 02 02:31:55 <umdk1d3> ooh 4gb ssd-like raid0
Oct 02 02:31:57 <SanMehat> ttuttle: can your USB controller run all the ports at full speed ?
Oct 02 02:32:17 <ttuttle> SanMehat: Not sure, but likely they can't all 4 saturate it anyway.
Oct 02 02:32:20 <SanMehat> ttuttle: crazyass :)
Oct 02 02:32:23 <ttuttle> SanMehat: I'll test the bandwidth later.
Oct 02 02:36:38 <BBHoss> ttuttle: wow, one drive offline and you lose everything
Oct 02 02:37:01 <ttuttle> BBHoss: I'm only storing my Portage tree on it, so it's just an rsync away if it breaks.
Oct 02 02:37:08 <BBHoss> heh, ok then
Oct 02 02:37:29 <BBHoss> i just setup a raid-3 software with Freebsd for my friend to store video on
Oct 02 02:37:36 <ttuttle> RAID-*3*?
Oct 02 02:37:37 <BBHoss> 3 750GB
Oct 02 02:37:42 <ttuttle> Oh.
Oct 02 02:37:47 <ttuttle> RAID-n does not mean RAID with n disks.
Oct 02 02:37:55 <BBHoss> right
Oct 02 02:38:23 <BBHoss> 2 drives store data and are striped, while the third drive stores parity for rebuilding
Oct 02 02:38:41 <jasta> that's RAID5
Oct 02 02:38:43 <f00f-> RAID-5
Oct 02 02:39:03 <jasta> BBHoss: the raid levels do not indicate how many disks are involved.
Oct 02 02:39:07 <f00f-> isn't RAID-10 just another parity drive?
Oct 02 02:39:09 <BBHoss> its different somehow, some minor detail
Oct 02 02:39:12 <jasta> or rather, they do not correspond to that :)
Oct 02 02:39:12 <f00f-> compare to 5
Oct 02 02:39:21 <BBHoss> maybe 3 is parity is spread across all three
Oct 02 02:40:04 <BBHoss> raid5 is distribted parity with raid 3 parity is stored on a single disk
Oct 02 02:40:37 <ttuttle> Nonono
Oct 02 02:40:47 <ttuttle> RAID-10 is RAID0 across RAID1 (or vice-versa, I forget).
Oct 02 02:41:30 <BBHoss> nested raid-0 inside of raid-1s basically
Oct 02 02:46:15 <jasta> the topic reminds me of the smashing pumpkin's song "Behold! The Nightmare" ;)
Oct 02 02:47:16 <umdk1d3> ttuttle: is the portage /tmp used during emerges on those drives too?
Oct 02 02:47:42 <umdk1d3> ive heard alot of ppl talk about mounting a ramdisk and redirecting portage tmp
Oct 02 02:47:50 <f00f-> i keep /tmp in a ramdisk always
Oct 02 02:47:52 <f00f-> on all my boxes
Oct 02 02:47:57 <umdk1d3> :)
Oct 02 02:48:00 <f00f-> you can also set gcc to use -pipe so no temp files
Oct 02 02:48:29 <umdk1d3> would -pipe work with large compiles though?
Oct 02 02:48:58 <umdk1d3> looks like it does
Oct 02 02:49:02 <umdk1d3> its recommended in the gentoo guide
Oct 02 02:49:32 <umdk1d3> oh lol i guess im already using it in my make.conf
Oct 02 02:49:48 <f00f-> yes make.conf
Oct 02 02:49:50 <f00f-> that's where i learned it
Oct 02 02:49:54 <ttuttle> umdk1d3: Nah, it's just disk.
Oct 02 02:50:11 <umdk1d3> oh that was why
Oct 02 02:50:24 <umdk1d3> the tmp that stores the unpacked tarball during compile
Oct 02 02:50:24 <ttuttle> I keep /tmp/ram in a ramdisk.
Oct 02 02:50:46 <ttuttle> I also have 2G RAM, so it may write to disk, but it doesn't usually need to read.
Oct 02 02:51:21 <umdk1d3> ive had a nasty leak in my xorg for the past 3 months that takes about a week to use up my 2gb ram
Oct 02 02:51:45 <umdk1d3> i think it was related to nvidia drivers
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Oct 02 02:59:57 2008