**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Oct 29 02:59:57 2008 Oct 29 02:59:58 romainguy, is anyone actively working on the DNS issue? Oct 29 03:00:03 what DNS issue? Oct 29 03:00:10 d03boy, haha. Oct 29 03:00:20 internet on the emulator hasn't ever worked since release Oct 29 03:00:21 DNS is broken the version that we released. Oct 29 03:00:26 ah jbq Oct 29 03:00:36 Issue 996. Oct 29 03:00:41 yeah, the one you filed Oct 29 03:00:54 This is rediculous that I can't close chrome lite Oct 29 03:01:02 chrome lite? Oct 29 03:01:23 whatever the g1 browser is, I heard it was chrome lite Oct 29 03:01:27 it's not Oct 29 03:01:33 romainguy++ Oct 29 03:01:38 and what do you mean you cannot close it? Oct 29 03:01:41 * ttuttle is so sick of it being called "Chrome Lite". Oct 29 03:01:42 why do you want to close it? Oct 29 03:01:59 rjaym: Notice how it is called "Browser" in the launcher. Oct 29 03:02:01 I want to close it because it's on my t-mobile account page Oct 29 03:02:14 rjaym: So just go to a different page. Oct 29 03:02:16 and I don't want to keep that up Oct 29 03:02:22 rjaym: It doesn't "stay open", it just remembers what page you were on. Oct 29 03:02:24 rjaym: Menu > Windows close the window Oct 29 03:03:02 why should I jump to another page when I want to close my current one, I'm not interested in another page, I'm interested in clearing out my phone's current memory usage Oct 29 03:03:14 Menu > Windows Oct 29 03:03:14 has linux been ever ported to sony ericsson w910i like phones ? Oct 29 03:03:15 also Oct 29 03:03:19 jbq, do you have any idea what it might be? Oct 29 03:03:22 you don't have to "clear the phone's memory usage" Oct 29 03:03:30 the system takes care of that for you Oct 29 03:03:31 rjaym: It will kill things when it needs memory. Oct 29 03:03:37 foobar``: it's low enough that it affects multiple applications. Oct 29 03:03:43 i cant seem to find an example for a view xml file for gallery :( Oct 29 03:03:43 you are guaranteed to always have the amount of RAM you need to run the application you are using Oct 29 03:03:56 d03boy: look at the ApiDemos like I said before Oct 29 03:04:00 that's what they're for Oct 29 03:04:03 yeah uh it affects everything Oct 29 03:04:03 romainguy: /me loves that bit ;-) Oct 29 03:04:07 romainguy, i'm on it. I only see a .java file Oct 29 03:04:13 foobar``: don't know if it's the native or interpreted code, don't know if it's the emulator, the kernel or user-space. Oct 29 03:04:15 d03boy: there are .xml files in res/ Oct 29 03:04:20 oh, no wonder Oct 29 03:04:27 jbq, is there any document describing the emulator's networking stack? Oct 29 03:05:01 jbq, it doesn't look like there's a resolv.conf in /system/etc in either this version or the working old version Oct 29 03:05:12 so it does something else.. Oct 29 03:05:59 it just seems rediculous that they even let you set the home page of the browser when you'll never navigate back to it.. ever.. Oct 29 03:06:04 ridiculous* Oct 29 03:06:17 In the device-settings we can enable "Audible Selection". Can we en/disable such stuff using code ? Oct 29 03:06:22 rjaym: ?? Oct 29 03:07:02 with WRITE_SETTINGS ? Oct 29 03:07:08 probably Oct 29 03:07:15 why do you want your app to change a system setting? Oct 29 03:07:28 is there a way I can change libc and then just rebuild one thing Oct 29 03:07:29 like ping Oct 29 03:07:33 instead of having it rebuild the entire system Oct 29 03:07:52 well yes it's true I could search+space to get to my home page, or go to it going through 2 menus, but it seems intrinsic to me that I should be able to close any browser when I'm done using it, and upon opening it up again, expect my new home page to show up Oct 29 03:07:58 romainguy: I want to enabled that Audible-Selection programatically Oct 29 03:08:13 rjaym: that's not how apps work on Android Oct 29 03:08:15 period Oct 29 03:08:21 plusminus_: sure, but why? Oct 29 03:08:31 plusminus_: I'd be really pissed at your app if it did that :)) Oct 29 03:08:42 * ttuttle seconds that. Oct 29 03:08:55 romainguy: because of the permission or the sound-feedback ? Oct 29 03:08:56 Unless I give your { app, web page, email, ... } permission to make noise, it damn well better not. Oct 29 03:09:03 plusminus_: because of the sound feedback Oct 29 03:09:29 when using my navigation app I want to give the user a possibility to get feedback without looking at the screen. Oct 29 03:09:42 then you should just launch the settings activity Oct 29 03:09:45 or even the settings page Oct 29 03:10:00 it seems that enabling *system wide* audible selection for your app is *not* the right way to do it Oct 29 03:10:06 plusminus_: Consider having your app actually read back the titles, instead of just making clicks. Oct 29 03:10:12 plusminus_: That's probably more useful to your users. Oct 29 03:10:21 plusminus_: You could probably extend ListView to do that. Oct 29 03:10:27 ttuttle: A TTS would be fine for that Oct 29 03:10:39 plusminus_: Yeah. Oct 29 03:10:54 btw why has it been removed from th emarket :/ Oct 29 03:11:08 plusminus_: Which is this? Oct 29 03:11:27 there had been a T2S library while the market was not yet public Oct 29 03:11:33 plusminus_: Oh. Oct 29 03:11:35 because the market was reset Oct 29 03:11:42 I guess whoever put it there didn't put it back Oct 29 03:11:50 plusminus_: Protip: "libraries" *really* confuse people. You're likely to get a 1-star rating because it "doesn't do anything". Oct 29 03:11:59 like Radar Oct 29 03:12:09 plusminus_: You should try to find a way to avoid that. Oct 29 03:12:15 plusminus_: I'm not sure how. Oct 29 03:12:24 ttuttle: me too ^^ Oct 29 03:12:40 T2S should be a part of the android core Oct 29 03:12:43 or api Oct 29 03:13:03 that's debatable Oct 29 03:13:22 imo it would enrich many apps Oct 29 03:13:27 and decrease file-sizes Oct 29 03:13:54 what's t2s? Oct 29 03:14:02 half of my AndNav2 is currently painfully pad mp3s Oct 29 03:14:05 text-2-speech Oct 29 03:14:23 ... I'm mean half of the apk size Oct 29 03:15:52 the market reaaaaaaaaaaly needs a seperate 'library' category and a way for apps to specify librarys they require in a way that the market will auto-fetch them if possible Oct 29 03:16:15 there is one Oct 29 03:16:15 Otherwise I totally agree, they just confuse end users and result in people not understanding how to use your app Oct 29 03:16:37 "Software libraries" Oct 29 03:16:53 Yea, but it is under "Applications" Oct 29 03:17:30 which doesn't really make sense to me? and many users (inc myself) havn't even looked at categories, just the 'all' view Oct 29 03:18:07 in regards to registering for location updates from LocationManager, it looks to me like the manager registers an alarm with the AlarmManager. does that alarm wakeup the device on sleep to run location update code? Oct 29 03:24:10 romainguy: could you give me a hint on how to start a specific settings-page programatically ? Oct 29 03:25:37 or even toggle a specific setting, like say turning wifi on Oct 29 03:25:56 spikebike: yep that would be fine too Oct 29 03:26:05 I've been pondering writing a itty bittly little ap that toggles 3g, wifi, and bluetooth Oct 29 03:26:13 stores it's state in it's icon Oct 29 03:26:20 i.e. wifi-on icon Oct 29 03:26:21 spikebike: heh, you stole my idea. Oct 29 03:26:32 you click it, it looks at the icon, turns wifi off, and swaps the icon Oct 29 03:26:36 have you guys been able to keep a consistent connection? Does 3g flake out at all? Oct 29 03:26:57 that way you waste zero bytes of ram Oct 29 03:27:19 and with the virtual desktop there's plenty of room for a tiny icon with a red/green light or something Oct 29 03:27:37 i think i have good battery life @ home because i'm like a block from a cell tower Oct 29 03:27:38 unix_infidel I've written zero lines of code, so don't let me stop ya Oct 29 03:27:59 d03 I've not noticed any... I don't spend a ton of time in 3g aras though Oct 29 03:28:00 spikebike: nah, I've had this idea for a long time, just havent bothered to write it :-P Oct 29 03:28:24 clearly with the battery life issue it would be nice Oct 29 03:28:40 that and a program to say... ah your connected to access poitn X, turn off cellular Oct 29 03:29:02 my office has zero signal (except wifi) Oct 29 03:29:06 you'd essentially need to keep some of these options have to be mutually exclusive. Oct 29 03:29:49 plusminus_: why don't you just use View.setSoundEffectsEnabled(true)? Oct 29 03:29:51 so in order to maintain connectivity, 802.11 b/g or 3G would be on. Oct 29 03:29:59 How do I get Current Position for Android? Oct 29 03:30:24 spikebike: AnyCut already lets you toggle Wifi/bluetooth Oct 29 03:30:43 no based on access point Oct 29 03:30:45 er not Oct 29 03:32:33 spikebike: you mean based on if a SSID like this is in range then turn off 3G? Oct 29 03:37:39 is it insanely quiet or is it just me? Oct 29 03:38:01 not just you Oct 29 03:38:05 and multiple networks Oct 29 03:38:18 i thought I was disconnected or something Oct 29 03:38:26 does it make sense for me to create my own Adapter class for some buttons in a gallery? Oct 29 03:39:30 hi Oct 29 03:39:37 ih Oct 29 03:40:13 d03boy, yes, it does, as you'd be adding to the poll Oct 29 03:40:15 *pool Oct 29 03:40:22 someone else might like it Oct 29 03:40:36 alrighty then Oct 29 03:40:44 :) Oct 29 03:52:28 is there any decent alternative to the g1's built in music player yet? Oct 29 03:53:06 romainguy: View.setSoundEffectsEnabled(true); works only if "Audible-Selection" was activated in the settings. Oct 29 03:53:58 did google write the SLIRP qemu code? Oct 29 03:54:06 er Oct 29 03:54:13 modify the SLIRP qemu code Oct 29 04:04:44 anyone know how I would go about making a gallery with buttons in it instead of images? Oct 29 04:04:56 buttons you say Oct 29 04:05:25 buttons galore Oct 29 04:07:03 d03boy: you can add whatever widget you want inside a gallery Oct 29 04:07:42 how do i write c++ apps for android? Oct 29 04:07:59 you don't Oct 29 04:08:27 the correct answer is, you write them in java Oct 29 04:09:24 Laz: hook up them through jni Oct 29 04:09:53 muthu, im not entirely sure how though Oct 29 04:10:28 d03boy: check out java tutorial Oct 29 04:10:29 do I need to make my own ButtonView and ButtonAdapter and stuff? Oct 29 04:10:43 oh, sry Oct 29 04:10:53 i know java quite well :P Oct 29 04:11:00 oops that was for jni Oct 29 04:11:09 d03boy: just add the buttons to the gallery Oct 29 04:11:23 ok then Oct 29 04:11:35 write you own adapter Oct 29 04:11:43 and then return button as the view Oct 29 04:12:05 gallery can take a list adapter Oct 29 04:15:02 apps running from sdcard seem to be major request Oct 29 04:17:22 should of been like that by default Oct 29 04:18:00 yeah, internal memory runs out soon Oct 29 04:21:55 did anyone upload notepad to the market? Oct 29 04:22:06 its there in sdk.. and everyone is asking for it Oct 29 04:27:09 pls remember to tell me in two months how much you made with muthupad Oct 29 04:28:03 cant charge $ right now so it gives others a chance to pollute the market with apps :( Oct 29 04:28:33 you cant charge yet? hmmm Oct 29 04:28:40 when does that get turned on Oct 29 04:29:11 gambler: haha Oct 29 04:29:51 am thinking of uploading notepad to market as is if no one else has done it Oct 29 04:31:15 I want a 7-zip implementation to Oct 29 04:31:17 too* Oct 29 04:31:29 why Oct 29 04:31:30 that could be a bit resource intensive? Oct 29 04:31:50 cause I was just browsing some apps, and some guy put his apk in a zip Oct 29 04:34:03 so you want a whole app for a tiny corner case that can be sorted out in 30 seconds on a desktop PC? Oct 29 04:34:45 I kill time at work browsing stuff Oct 29 04:34:46 seems like a pretty easy app to write given the high quality java compression libs out there Oct 29 04:35:08 but I think I'd kill myself before I ever plucked fruit that was hanging that low Oct 29 04:36:27 I also want to be able to set my wallpaper without it being re-scaled, I tried to set a wallpaper that has a vector graphic drawn logo, and it looks horribly unsharp and blurred with graphic artifacts etc.., and that was when I sized the wall-paper to the supposed native resolution of G1's wallpaper's, 640x480 Oct 29 04:37:37 * gambler goes back to working on his nethack port Oct 29 04:39:12 sounds cool I wouldn't mind playing that Oct 29 04:39:28 startActivity(new Intent(Settings.ACTION_SECURITY_SETTINGS)); // WORKS Oct 29 04:39:46 startActivity(new Intent(Settings.ACTION_DISPLAY_SETTINGS)); // Works NOT Oct 29 04:39:48 any ideas ? Oct 29 04:40:08 LogCat says "No Activity found to handle this Intent." Oct 29 04:40:15 So my question is how to bring up i.e. the "Sound & Display"-Settings-Activity. ? Oct 29 04:40:23 hi Oct 29 04:41:06 plusminus_: are you setting the right type? Oct 29 04:41:15 type? Oct 29 04:41:20 some intents require action and type Oct 29 04:41:36 hm Oct 29 04:42:12 even if, why should the ones above be different? Oct 29 04:47:25 how do you switch branch using 'repo'? Oct 29 04:48:49 repo start.. creates a branch Oct 29 04:49:02 now need to switch to another branch Oct 29 04:49:32 is the US working this week or not ? ;) Oct 29 04:49:54 Gotta say I love the G1. Anyone figure out how to get a shell prompt yet? Oct 29 04:50:15 not local bgupta Oct 29 04:50:20 rats Oct 29 04:50:23 im sure you know about connectbot though Oct 29 04:50:29 yeah.. Oct 29 04:51:36 is there an easy way to just Oct 29 04:51:40 restore a file Oct 29 04:51:45 with uncommitted edits Oct 29 04:52:52 I usually just delete/update Oct 29 04:54:14 anyone use five music? Oct 29 04:54:34 i cant get it to sync Oct 29 04:55:23 oh dear Oct 29 04:55:36 foobar``: git revert? Oct 29 04:56:02 hmm.. looks like repo has only a few commands Oct 29 04:56:07 no way to switch branch Oct 29 04:57:35 any cool new programs written today? Oct 29 04:57:43 i think i fixed the dns problem Oct 29 04:58:00 there's a dns problem? Oct 29 04:58:00 DarkriftX: is there a notepad app in the market? Oct 29 04:58:08 no idea, i dont ahve a g1 Oct 29 04:58:13 ok Oct 29 04:58:15 there was one on my site but it didnt work Oct 29 04:58:24 muthu: not afaict Oct 29 04:58:32 there's one in source.. Oct 29 04:58:39 trying to find new apps/games to submit to my site Oct 29 04:59:03 wastrel: am planning to build the notepad from android source and upload to market Oct 29 04:59:12 guess it should be ok Oct 29 04:59:26 thats the one that was on my site and didnt work Oct 29 04:59:31 make it so i can hand-write notes on the screen as well as type Oct 29 04:59:40 also make it sync to google docs or something Oct 29 04:59:51 also make it location aware ffs, not enough stuff depends on gps Oct 29 04:59:56 lol Oct 29 05:00:00 hehe Oct 29 05:00:05 you are at work, so your font will be x Oct 29 05:03:08 Wastrel: Here are some ideas for apps: podcatcher, pdf viewer, office document editor (or a functional google docs), mobipocket compaitble ereader, video camcorder, weather gadget for homescreen, more advanced media player, memopad/outliner/todo with websync, video player with autoscale (so I dont have to downsample my standard videos), Oct 29 05:03:49 jasonchen: around? Oct 29 05:03:55 can someone with a g1 test this? http://mileageledger.com/Mileage.apk Oct 29 05:04:07 Oh and while you are at it, a root shell, an A2DP driver, and a dialup networking client. Oct 29 05:04:09 last version that was submitted didnt work, but it was re-submitted today and i dont know if it works Oct 29 05:04:26 DarkriftX: I can test it Oct 29 05:04:38 there's an ereader in development, a pdf reader apparently in development but it's all in chinese so who knows, homescreen widgets aren't supported yet, there's a todo with websync but it's a mess UI-wise. Oct 29 05:04:42 ty, i dont want to add it to my official download page if it doesnt work like the last one Oct 29 05:04:43 dunno about that other jaz Oct 29 05:04:44 z Oct 29 05:04:53 and yeah, most of those ideas are good for apps Oct 29 05:05:12 DarkriftX Oct 29 05:05:20 what "official" download page? Oct 29 05:05:22 file browser, aim app (cheap or freeware, $20 is expensive for an im client) and an irc client are must-have's Oct 29 05:05:43 srsly.. irc client.. none yet? Oct 29 05:05:45 trigatch4, i have a "user submitted" forum, and i have a "downloads" forum Oct 29 05:06:02 ah, nice... friendly competition ;) Oct 29 05:06:06 whats the site? Oct 29 05:06:07 that file was in my downloads but didnt work so it was removed and a user re-submitted it today Oct 29 05:06:12 android-dls.com Oct 29 05:06:30 user submitted stuff gets moved but this app was already in there and didnt work Oct 29 05:07:19 Milage calculator crashed (process com.techmethods.mileage) has stopped unexpectedly. Please try again. Oct 29 05:07:45 DarkriftX: That was for you. Oct 29 05:07:56 ok, thx Oct 29 05:08:06 ill edit the post and not move it to downloads :( Oct 29 05:12:28 DarkriftX: I didn't give you the full and exact error: Sorry! The application Mileage Calculator (process com.techmethods.mileage) has stopped unexpectedly. Please try again. Oct 29 05:12:44 thats ok Oct 29 05:12:55 just the fact it failed tells me not to add it Oct 29 05:14:55 Hey any blackberry devs around? I'm curious how easy it's gonna be to port Java apps from BB to Android? Oct 29 05:15:36 There are some pretty cool apps starting to surface on the BB side.. so was hoping some porting might go on. Oct 29 05:15:38 The UI stuff changes Oct 29 05:15:48 that's the first obvious change Oct 29 05:15:52 Ah, that makes sense. Oct 29 05:16:38 and I find it funny that BB is finally starting to get apps built r it Oct 29 05:17:07 I had one about 3 or 4 years ago and the best I could find for it was mobipocket and that built-in breakout clone Oct 29 05:17:49 Yeah.. it took awhile... but I think the biggest factors is the PalmOS devs getting tired of a dying platform, and going to where the growth was. Oct 29 05:18:42 I've not built any aps yet - but I'm planning to get started hacking away soon Oct 29 05:18:52 but from what I've seen it looks pretty straightforward Oct 29 05:19:02 porting existing java stuff shouldn't be brain surgery Oct 29 05:19:06 cool. Any J2ME experience? Oct 29 05:19:23 No, only desktop and server Oct 29 05:19:27 cool.. Oct 29 05:19:27 J2SE and J2EE Oct 29 05:21:01 I saw one program I wanted to start hacking away at porting - a pure java x86 emulator called JPC http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/ - I loaded it up into eclipse in an android project and the only errors I was seeing were in UI stuff and a couple of Java 1.6-only functions it was using Oct 29 05:22:27 It uses swing extensively, so porting it wont be trivial - but it should be an interesting project Oct 29 05:24:16 i don't know any java :] Oct 29 05:24:42 it uses Swing?? Oct 29 05:25:00 romainguy - yes, they use swing a lot, with a bit of awt mixed in Oct 29 05:25:02 ah yes indeed Oct 29 05:25:04 just for presentation Oct 29 05:25:05 they changed it Oct 29 05:25:13 the last time I saw it, it had no UI Oct 29 05:25:21 there's not that much UI to it Oct 29 05:25:22 Oh, it was just a command-line thing? Oct 29 05:25:29 it was an applet Oct 29 05:25:36 but just the DOS emulator, nothing else around Oct 29 05:25:42 so probably just using Java 2D Oct 29 05:25:52 porting Java 2D stuff to Skia is probably quite easy Oct 29 05:26:03 Hmm... maybe I can just pick which part to port then Oct 29 05:26:06 and port the easy part :) Oct 29 05:26:46 RyeBrye: Just wish we could get to the shell and then we could run some real emulators.. Oct 29 05:27:13 Yeah, I know... porting emulators to the phones will be a real bitch because of that - but maybe it will spawn the era of the Java-based emulator Oct 29 05:27:28 (doubtful... but hey... stranger things have happened) Oct 29 05:27:37 I certainly hope we have enough horsepower to write stuff like SNES emulators in Java Oct 29 05:27:51 hey guys im pretty newb but if i found a java guitar tuner app Oct 29 05:28:03 how hard would it be to make an android app with it Oct 29 05:28:03 Ugg.. I'm thinking, that we aren't gonna see alot of that stuff until we break out of Davlik. Oct 29 05:28:54 Well... If JPC can be ported, and works with decent speed - you could conceivably run x86 hosted emulators in JPC on top of ARM Oct 29 05:29:00 :P Oct 29 05:29:11 there are console emulators written in Java Oct 29 05:29:11 But then your head would explode just thinking about it Oct 29 05:29:20 romainguy, im sure there is Oct 29 05:29:25 like this one http://andre.facadecomputer.com/nes/ Oct 29 05:29:37 tons of ppc apps do it on slower processors and android seems better at resource management Oct 29 05:29:42 or http://www.virtualnes.com/ Oct 29 05:30:34 interesting Oct 29 05:32:29 Ok. so on my 2.4 GHz machine, JPC is benchmarking as a 40 MHz x86 box. :( Oct 29 05:32:52 ouch Oct 29 05:33:15 Ha Oct 29 05:33:16 :) Oct 29 05:33:25 I'll have to download the app and test it on mine Oct 29 05:33:57 is there some benchmark util you ran? Oct 29 05:34:43 I ran the linux demo Oct 29 05:34:53 gotcha Oct 29 05:35:32 argh Oct 29 05:35:33 fuck Oct 29 05:35:34 how many bogomips does the processor have? Oct 29 05:35:37 need to compile on the laptop @!# Oct 29 05:36:17 need to relaunch it.. I already shut it down Oct 29 05:36:22 weird, repo doesn't have a branch command to switch branches Oct 29 05:36:29 muthu: use git Oct 29 05:36:33 repo is like git for dummies, isn't it? Oct 29 05:36:36 http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/DemoLinux.html Oct 29 05:36:39 not really Oct 29 05:36:46 the thing is the Android project is made of 100 git repos Oct 29 05:36:59 so repo is just here to perform batch operations across these repos Oct 29 05:37:10 you still need to use git Oct 29 05:37:19 to do the staging for instance Oct 29 05:37:19 romainguy: exactly Oct 29 05:37:21 or commit Oct 29 05:37:40 ok Oct 29 05:37:53 http://java-emu.emuunlim.com/ Oct 29 05:37:53 Ah Oct 29 05:38:22 boycott advance is java? Oct 29 05:38:31 Interesting, that's one of the better GBA emulators Oct 29 05:38:33 fun Oct 29 05:38:42 I was using boycott advance when I was working for Atari Oct 29 05:38:49 the official Nintendo dev kit was too annoying :) Oct 29 05:39:21 I nominate Romainguy to port that one then ;) Oct 29 05:39:28 lol Oct 29 05:39:44 http://cottage.consolemul.com/news.htm Someone needs to port this. Oct 29 05:40:33 "2006-03-04: New games!" That would be a bitch to merge with the latest MAME, no doubt Oct 29 05:40:46 I guess merge isn't the right word Oct 29 05:40:55 it would be a bitch to bring up to date to match the latest MAME Oct 29 05:42:34 I don't think BAO is OSS Oct 29 05:42:44 at least I can't find a source link for it - and the bao.jar is obfuscated Oct 29 05:43:09 I mean.. I can decompile it just fine - but porting over a bunch of code with one-letter variable names isn't my idea of fun :) Oct 29 05:44:58 Yikes: http://www.dreamfabric.com/c64/ Oct 29 05:45:59 looking at the URL I thought it was an N64 emulator Oct 29 05:46:01 it scared me :) Oct 29 05:46:57 http://www.jac64.com/ Oct 29 05:46:59 lol RyeBrye Oct 29 05:47:22 RyeBrye, run a regex script to change all the vars Oct 29 05:47:34 http://sourceforge.net/projects/jac64 Oct 29 05:49:11 RyeBrye: Maybe I was too quick to write off Java based emulators... Oct 29 05:49:31 We can certainly emulate some of the older stuff. Oct 29 05:50:25 I mean the c64 was 1 MHz if I recall.. Oct 29 05:53:02 hey when i try to build this app (five) Oct 29 05:53:06 it says build successful Oct 29 05:53:09 but i get lots of errors Oct 29 05:53:31 hmm, did you use maven to build? Oct 29 05:53:52 [Error] warning: Ignoring InnerClasses attribute for an anonymous inner class that doesnt come with an associated EnclosingMethod attribute. (This class was probably produced by a broken compiler.) Oct 29 05:53:55 yea Oct 29 05:54:01 those are just warnings tho Oct 29 05:54:04 what compiler are you using? Oct 29 05:54:42 javac 1.5.0_13 Oct 29 05:54:55 have you guys tried five? Oct 29 05:55:07 ive been using it for awhile :) Oct 29 05:55:10 nope Oct 29 05:55:12 would like to Oct 29 05:55:24 btu I'm too lazy to setup the server Oct 29 05:55:48 whenever i click on anything i get "Sorry! The application org.devtcg.five.music (process org.devtcg.five.music) has stopped unexpectedly. Please try again. Oct 29 05:55:54 in five music Oct 29 05:56:32 any ideas umdk1d3? Oct 29 05:59:33 D0nets: have you looked at a logcat dump? Oct 29 06:02:31 D0nets: so errors in android get dumped into logcat, which you can view from eclipse Oct 29 06:02:36 do you have the SDK installed? Oct 29 06:02:39 yes Oct 29 06:02:41 on my laptop Oct 29 06:03:12 ok eclipse is up Oct 29 06:03:44 have you enabled usb debug mode on your device? Oct 29 06:05:03 "1. Enable USB debugging. Go into Settings, Applications, Development, and enable the "USB debugging" option. " Oct 29 06:06:24 ok its enabled Oct 29 06:06:43 cool, now if you go into the "DDMS" perspective in eclipse, you should hopefully see your device Oct 29 06:08:09 hrmm, im not seing it Oct 29 06:08:49 i see it Oct 29 06:09:24 "Required maximum version of adb: 1.0.18. Current version is 1.0.20" Oct 29 06:09:35 looooll Oct 29 06:09:51 umm not sure what would cause that Oct 29 06:09:52 are you running the 1.0 sdk? Oct 29 06:09:56 yea Oct 29 06:10:16 odd i havent run into that error before Oct 29 06:10:30 is your eclipse plugin updated for 1.0 as well? Oct 29 06:11:02 D0nets: heres a solution looks like --> http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/13de5b8109eeb98a Oct 29 06:11:57 hey. anyone know if wpa enterprise is a doable application (is the hardware limiting)? Or just not in the API yet? I saw wpa_supplicant in /system/bin/ Oct 29 06:15:14 umdk1d3 thanks Oct 29 06:15:17 fixing Oct 29 06:15:40 could that have something to do with my problem with five? Oct 29 06:15:54 probably not, because it compiled fine Oct 29 06:16:06 well somethings def not right lol Oct 29 06:16:14 jaakkee: do you have a more specific description of what you mean by "wpa enterprise"? If you mean with PKCS certs and whatnot, I don't believe there's a UI for it, if the framework even supports it Oct 29 06:16:15 you are able to stream music right? Oct 29 06:16:37 ok umdk1d3 im back in the sdk Oct 29 06:16:47 D0nets: yep it works great for me Oct 29 06:16:55 first step would be seeing what that error its giving you Oct 29 06:17:20 when you get into logcat in ddms, try maximizing it and looking through for the five error Oct 29 06:17:30 then copy the stacktrace to pastebin or somewhere Oct 29 06:17:33 ok i clicked window perspective ddms Oct 29 06:18:01 does it connect to your device now? Oct 29 06:18:17 where should i be looking? Oct 29 06:18:41 so in ddms, there is a devices tab Oct 29 06:19:03 yea i see that Oct 29 06:19:07 it shows the emulator 5554 Oct 29 06:19:29 it should show your G1 if you have it connected over usb Oct 29 06:19:36 in addition to any running emulators Oct 29 06:20:17 Hi all, does anyone know if there's a known bug that prevents audio play out with the emulator when used on vista? I don't get any errors while playing out audio, but there is no sound either. There's no other application currently using audio (, and the -useaudio flag isn't a valid startup option). Oct 29 06:23:20 i dont see it umdk1d3 Oct 29 06:23:24 i see devices Oct 29 06:23:27 its plugged in Oct 29 06:23:35 usb debugging and stay awake are checked Oct 29 06:24:28 D0nets: what OS are you using? Oct 29 06:24:33 ubuntu Oct 29 06:24:37 7.10 Oct 29 06:24:56 there are some things you might need to add: http://code.google.com/android/intro/develop-and-debug.html#developingondevicehardware Oct 29 06:27:19 where is androidmanifest.xml Oct 29 06:28:35 When I run the emulator, all the emulator displays is ANDROID even though I am running the sample applications. Any pointers as to what may have caused this? Oct 29 06:33:05 I am using Archlinux by the way Oct 29 06:33:26 umdk1d3 any idears? Oct 29 06:34:26 i see in tools/lib there is androidmanifest.alias.template Oct 29 06:34:33 and androidmanifest.template Oct 29 06:49:35 anyone here? Oct 29 06:49:53 In Eclipse, you can do this from the Application tab when viewing the Manifest (on the right side, set Debuggable to true). Otherwise, in the AndroidManifest.xml file, add android:debuggable="true" to the element. Oct 29 06:49:56 where is the manifest Oct 29 06:52:01 usually in project root/AndroidManifest.xml Oct 29 06:53:00 could you elaborate Oct 29 06:53:04 is that a dir in the sdk? Oct 29 06:53:53 oh i see Oct 29 06:54:01 but hrmm, im just trying to get my device to show up Oct 29 06:55:00 hey can anyone tell me how easy it actually is to get a g1 with no contract for the 400$ price? Can you just walk in to any tmobile store and theyÄll sell it to youwith no trouble? what about walmart? Oct 29 06:56:04 hrm Oct 29 06:56:33 two g1's plugged in to the same pc via usb. second g1 doesn't show up as a removable drive Oct 29 06:57:01 d0nets, oh, didn't know what you were trying to do :) (have no idea how you get the device to show up.. I don't have one :|) Oct 29 07:02:58 jota- they aren't in walmart yet AFAIK - but they will be shortly is the rumor - and the other rumor is they will be there for $148 for those buying a contract or an upgrade Oct 29 07:03:10 $148 + $200 ETF < $400 Oct 29 07:03:48 you also need to pay for a month of service Oct 29 07:03:57 ok, in that case you might be about even Oct 29 07:04:45 ETF = ? Oct 29 07:04:46 rye: you are famous! Oct 29 07:04:46 http://www.boingboing.net/2008/10/24/hackers-working-on-c.html Oct 29 07:05:17 wow... my random quote made it to boing boing? Oct 29 07:05:33 hackers have extracted the g1 firmware via camera driver exploitz! Oct 29 07:06:04 You probably cant get a crontract if you dont have a US billing addres(which I dont). Thats why im interested on the no contract option Oct 29 07:06:22 RyeBrye, that is clever Oct 29 07:06:22 actually this one referring to the bb article is better: Oct 29 07:06:23 http://www.techdigest.tv/2008/10/tmobile_g1_has.html Oct 29 07:06:52 "Using Canon cameras, hackers have been able to take images of the chips and then analyze pixels to determin vulnerabilities in the space time continuum that allow wormholes to form around coders..." Oct 29 07:07:18 Ok... that techdigest one shows that someone needs to work on reading comprehension. Oct 29 07:07:23 HAHAHAHAHA Oct 29 07:07:34 man that's hysterical Oct 29 07:07:41 scary, stupidm but funny Oct 29 07:07:59 RyeBrye, how does the stuff on the g1 differ from the release opensource version? Oct 29 07:08:43 And... I haven't even gotten my G1 yet - so I'd be uber 1337 if I had already dumped the bootloader or something using an LED trick Oct 29 07:08:50 the main differences on production g1: Oct 29 07:08:58 - runs in "secure" mode (adb is not root, etc) Oct 29 07:09:18 - has a handful of hardware-specific proprietary libs (qualcomm opengles library, htc radio interface library, etc) Oct 29 07:09:26 - has some google apps (maps, gmail, etc) Oct 29 07:10:02 will those binaries run on the opensource base OS? Oct 29 07:10:12 yup Oct 29 07:10:16 RyeBrye, you should respond in the comments to the techdigest blog with something akin to "James O'Malley you're a reading comprehension challenged idiot." Oct 29 07:12:45 Yeah, I did just reply to them... I was a bit more polite than that - but are the camera doesn't even have an auto focus LED Oct 29 07:14:28 err... that didn't come out correctly... but yeah - I'm not quite sure that dumping the firmware of the device would even matter Oct 29 07:14:51 although dumping the bootloader might help - if there were some helpful symbols left in it to identify what some of the functions might do in it Oct 29 07:14:52 wait Oct 29 07:14:55 what did you do? Oct 29 07:15:05 Canon camera - blinked the firmware out of the autofocus LED Oct 29 07:15:16 NOTHING to the G1 yet Oct 29 07:15:25 ah Oct 29 07:15:26 it comes tomorrow Oct 29 07:15:27 ok Oct 29 07:16:22 I've found info on getting into the bootloader, and talked to other people about it - but nobody seems to know how to get into it yet Oct 29 07:16:36 or more specifically - how to do something when you are in the bootloader Oct 29 07:17:00 (hold down the camera button when you boot and you get into the bootloader and it says "Serial 0" but nothing much else goes on there it seems) Oct 29 07:17:36 RyeBrye: I expect there is a serial port on the PCB somewhere where you'd then get a prompt. Oct 29 07:18:00 Yeah, there was also a thought that the extra audio pins on the underside of the EXT-USB might be used as serial in that mode Oct 29 07:18:04 (or not, if they've shut down console access on the bootloader as a final testing step) Oct 29 07:18:21 Most other HTC phones get busted open it seems Oct 29 07:18:22 they were supposed to ^^ Oct 29 07:18:31 Oh, they were? :( Oct 29 07:18:44 swetland: supposed to shut down the console access? Oct 29 07:18:59 shut down download/debug features on the production bootloader Oct 29 07:19:19 * rwhitby dealt with a Linksys WRP400 router which had u-boot with the serial port console locked as the final manufacturing step. Oct 29 07:19:44 ... and then kernel output redirected *away* from the serial port on boot ... Oct 29 07:19:49 the bootloader is pretty much a black box to me though Oct 29 07:21:42 Were they supposed to do that to the G1 specifically or just to phones in general? Oct 29 07:26:36 it looks like ConnectivityManager has a method called "dump" which seems to be callable via some IPC thing Oct 29 07:26:40 not part of it's interface Oct 29 07:26:53 is there some simple program that will call "dump" on a given service object? Oct 29 07:27:22 ms Oct 29 07:27:24 oops Oct 29 07:27:42 foobar: dumpsys Oct 29 07:28:03 ah Oct 29 07:28:10 nice Oct 29 07:28:17 with no arguments it asks *all* services to dump state Oct 29 07:28:20 which can be a little chatty Oct 29 07:30:09 so the problem with the dns is "net.dns1" system property is not set Oct 29 07:30:18 "net.eth0.dns1" is set Oct 29 07:30:19 hows it swetland? Oct 29 07:30:47 so im trying to modify the PackageInstaller, and i copied the relevant source files out of the android source directory into my eclipse workspace Oct 29 07:31:05 now how the heck do i get eclipse to recognize it as a valid project? it just doesnt appear in the project explorer and i cant import it or anything Oct 29 07:31:15 all the right parts seem to be there, so what am i missing? Oct 29 07:32:09 is there an additional global eclipse projects directory i need to tool with? Oct 29 07:41:59 D/MobileDataStateTracker( 51): Received android.intent.action.ANY_DATA_STATE broadcast - state = DISCONNECTED, unavailable = true, reason = radioTurnedOff Oct 29 08:04:52 anyone knows where the source for java.lang.* classes is (what *.git)? I couldn't find them in base.git Oct 29 08:10:10 Has anyone taken apart a G1 yet and posted images? Oct 29 08:20:43 man im single handedly defending android while they beat the crap out of it in ubuntu-offtopic Oct 29 08:22:21 people care about ubuntu-off-topic? Oct 29 08:22:32 heh Oct 29 08:22:36 ok, another one - I can't get my TextView to scroll by its own. Adding a ScrollView around it solves vertical scrolling but I heard rumors that TextView should be able to scroll by itself.. and also horizontally. Any pointers? Oct 29 08:26:05 oh man gotta give it to ubuntu users Oct 29 08:26:40 nm there must be some in here Oct 29 08:27:05 BruteSource: what they saying? Oct 29 08:30:58 they kicked me lol Oct 29 08:31:19 haha.. you need to gang up and go :) Oct 29 08:32:14 no, im not really a troll i just don't like when they talk about android badly, especially when then have never used it. Oct 29 08:40:04 (about scrolling TextView) android:scrollHorizontally = "true" is not helping...neither is android:scrollbarAlwaysDrawHorizontalTrack="true" or android:scrollbarAlwaysDrawVerticalTrack="true" Oct 29 08:40:58 the combination of android:scrollHorizontally ="true" android:scrollbars="horizontal|vertical" is almost working.. as it displays the scrollbars.. but you can't interact with them.. Oct 29 08:45:05 I know it has to be a simple thing that I have to set somewhere... the ScrollView doc says: "The TextView class also takes care of its own scrolling, so does not require a ScrollView" Oct 29 08:45:19 textview does it own scrolling yes Oct 29 08:45:48 are you using edittext? Oct 29 08:45:56 no, plain TextView Oct 29 08:47:45 the layout of the activity is just a TextView and an EditText (both are inside a LinearLayout) TextView has the following params: android:layout_width="fill_parent" android:layout_height="wrap_content" android:layout_weight="1" Oct 29 08:48:23 EditText has android:layout_width="fill_parent" android:layout_height="wrap_content" and android:singleLine="true" Oct 29 08:48:25 try to set lines Oct 29 08:48:50 I tried android:singleLine="false".. nothing Oct 29 08:49:02 (in TextView) Oct 29 08:50:48 if it matters, I set the text with .append("..."); Oct 29 08:59:02 I'm out of ideas Oct 29 09:11:54 Tauno: run the hierarchyviewer and check layout Oct 29 09:12:00 it might throw some tips Oct 29 09:12:17 is there a way to dump the sqllite db Oct 29 09:13:05 there's sqlite3 tool available Oct 29 09:13:11 not sure if it dumps Oct 29 09:19:51 hierarchyviewer shows that the textview has the following properties disabled: hasFocus() isClickable() isFocusable() isFocused() isInTouchMode() wonder if any of these prevent the scrolling? Oct 29 09:20:40 if all the text gets displayed, then scrollbars will not be visible Oct 29 09:21:34 do you know where dbs are written on the filesystem? Oct 29 09:21:36 It does not.. the text is like 10meters long and 1meter wide ;) Oct 29 09:32:15 foobar``: /data/data/your.package/databases Oct 29 09:34:27 w00t Oct 29 09:34:30 i fixed the dns problem Oct 29 09:45:38 hi * Oct 29 09:50:10 sorry there is a sort of System.out.println in android ? i would like to have some console output ? Oct 29 09:50:20 Log.d Oct 29 09:50:28 System.out.err works too Oct 29 09:50:45 thanks Oct 29 09:50:53 System.err I mean Oct 29 09:52:59 * andreaf is studying android with the tutorial (the program does'nt works) Oct 29 11:07:48 . Oct 29 11:07:52 anyone else not able to access the web from their g1? i canssh through the net but bnot web browse Oct 29 11:08:19 ..if only I had a G1 ;) Oct 29 11:08:46 the web works fine on my G1 Oct 29 11:08:54 just tired it Oct 29 11:08:57 tried Oct 29 11:09:05 Tauno: they.are cheap go buy one Oct 29 11:09:28 i love my G1 Oct 29 11:10:03 it kicks iPhoney butt :o) Oct 29 11:10:14 I'm in Europe.. they don't sell them here and they don't sell eunlocked G1s in USA so that I could just go there and get one and come back :( Oct 29 11:10:40 they sell unlocked G1s on ebay Oct 29 11:10:55 rumors are that these are fake.. Oct 29 11:11:19 and doesn't G1 start selling in britain very soon? Oct 29 11:11:26 like in the next couple of days? Oct 29 11:11:36 otherwise I would buy more than just one.. we are many developers here :) Oct 29 11:11:59 I'm also not in UK.. and they also don't sell it without a contract or unlocked versions AFAIK Oct 29 11:12:53 where are you? Oct 29 11:13:44 Estonia - a small forgotten country between Russia and the civilized world :) Oct 29 11:13:49 they dont sell it anywhere without a contract Oct 29 11:14:00 well ebay Oct 29 11:14:05 i hear it's a beautiful country Oct 29 11:14:44 with the most beautiful girls in the world Oct 29 11:15:25 that's the problem here.. they won't be selling them in my country any time soon (we don't have big telcos like T-mobile etc.. here).. for example the iPhone came to sale here in the beginning of this september Oct 29 11:16:21 neekers, well that's true :) Oct 29 11:17:35 the first iphone? Oct 29 11:18:10 Tauno: I've been to Estonia are you in Tallinn? Oct 29 11:18:18 Beautiful country. Oct 29 11:18:33 tomgibara, no I'm not in Tallinn Oct 29 11:20:31 BruteSource, the second gen one the first one is not sold here at all. (the price is about 1600$ here) Oct 29 11:23:15 i've decided to go on a news diet and not read the news for a week. there is so much negativity in the news that i think it has a bad effect on people Oct 29 11:23:30 that is.. the price when you want it without a contract.. if you get the contract then it'll be a total of ~1600$ too.. and thats the 8GB version with 100 free mins, 100 free sms and 100mb free data per month Oct 29 11:23:39 neekers just figuring that out ? :) Oct 29 11:24:25 delvien: well... i just want to see if it has an effect on me by not reading all that negativity Oct 29 11:25:26 neekers: its designed to make people watch it not give you all of the facts Oct 29 11:25:33 (offtopic) oh.. just calculated that if I want an iPhone with unlimited data then it'll be >$2500.. Oct 29 11:26:19 yes, you're right, its an addictive negativity drug Oct 29 11:26:44 designed to surpress the spirit! :o) Oct 29 11:26:55 ok, im going a little off the deep end.... Oct 29 11:27:49 (offtopic) the average wage is something like ~$900/month.. no wonder that almost nobody has an iPhone here ;) Oct 29 11:28:57 tauno 900? that stinks. price of housing must be low? Oct 29 11:29:05 i wsa thinking just that, it must be several months wages... Oct 29 11:29:41 so to conclude.. I'm in a twisted country that has a beautiful nature with the most beautiful women.. but living here is a little.. pricey.. Oct 29 11:30:14 neekers i havent read the news or watched tv in 4 years. im a happier man because of it Oct 29 11:30:43 tauno so id be considered rich there..... Oct 29 11:31:04 delvien: that sounds excellent, you must have lots of time to do good positive things Oct 29 11:31:22 Delvien, a 2 room apartment (45 square meters) costs about $100 000 here (not in the capital.. there it costs more).. in an old building.. I don't know if it's cheap or not compared to * Oct 29 11:31:35 tauno find myself a beautiful wife and live in a cottage. sounds like a plan to me Oct 29 11:32:02 it does sound like a good plan Oct 29 11:32:02 tauno $100.00 ? Oct 29 11:32:44 Delvien you don't want to live here.. because you would have to earn money here.. so you won't be rich anymore ;) you just want to get here.. get a girl (believe me.. foreign rich men are a hit here amongst women) and get out of here :) You'll see the nature if you are visiting your girls parents :) Oct 29 11:32:56 $100000 Oct 29 11:32:59 i have the secret Oct 29 11:33:17 live there and earn your money all off the internet. Oct 29 11:33:30 tauno wow a hundrd thousand? is that us dollars Oct 29 11:33:32 it doesn't matter where you live Oct 29 11:33:34 A lot of British and Americans have invested in property in Estonia pushing the prices up. Oct 29 11:33:37 yes, US dollars Oct 29 11:33:59 wow Oct 29 11:34:09 thats expensive Oct 29 11:34:25 now compare it with our wages.. THAT's expensive :P Oct 29 11:34:39 i pay /$700 a month for my 1200 sq ft apt Oct 29 11:34:58 that's the price if you want to buy it .. not rent :) Oct 29 11:35:02 delvein: where are you? Oct 29 11:36:26 it's about $500/month here for ~500sq ft (thats also not in the capital.. there it's more I guess) Oct 29 11:36:37 neekers ohio usa Oct 29 11:36:38 oh, sry got the dimensions wrong Oct 29 11:36:46 ahh Oct 29 11:36:59 i live just outside of seattle Oct 29 11:37:01 ..no. .I was right :P Oct 29 11:37:11 tauno for the avg wage thats pricey Oct 29 11:37:18 it sure is :) Oct 29 11:37:38 capialism for the lose Oct 29 11:38:29 if we are offtopic already.. how many hours do you have to work there per week? Oct 29 11:39:14 40 Oct 29 11:40:00 ok, then it's the same Oct 29 11:40:20 what country? Oct 29 11:40:34 estonia Oct 29 11:41:11 where abouts is that? Oct 29 11:42:22 (and the reason why nobody uses macs here is that for example macbook pro (17" 2.5GHz/4GB/320GB/GeForce 8600MGT) costs ~$4000) Oct 29 11:43:03 it's between finland, latvia, russia and sweden Oct 29 11:43:32 it's a stone's throw from russia... get it? stones throw? estonia? errr... nevermind.... Oct 29 11:43:40 :O) Oct 29 11:43:51 :P Oct 29 11:44:07 yeah, that was pretty bad... Oct 29 11:44:42 not to be confused with Elbonia (hint@dilbert).. Oct 29 11:47:12 in soviet russia...stone throws YOU Oct 29 11:52:49 Tauno: You in Talin? Oct 29 11:53:37 no Oct 29 11:53:38 errr.... Talinn that is. Oct 29 11:54:03 Cool.. I used to work with someone from Estonia. Oct 29 11:55:03 Al the Kazaa and Skype guys are from Estonia, no? Oct 29 11:55:36 not all.. but most of them are indeed Oct 29 11:56:10 I heard Estonia has a really cool technology scene right now. Oct 29 11:56:21 IE: It's really cool to be in tech... Oct 29 11:56:50 mostly true.. depends of the context :) Oct 29 12:02:19 http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2004/02/09/360106/index.htm Oct 29 12:04:35 but speaking of technology... we like to think that we are ahead of the rest of the world :P (e-voting (voting from internet), m-voting is coming next time (voting from your mobile), wireless access basically everywhere (using a dedicated 450MHz network that covers almost the whole country.. I think it covers something like 98% of the land area) etc etc etc..) Oct 29 12:07:08 and no, the voting is not done by diebold :P Oct 29 12:07:24 weird i can access data services but websites wqont load2 Oct 29 12:08:19 delvien: are you indoors? Oct 29 12:08:44 try going outdoors for just a few minutes Oct 29 12:08:53 yes but that shouldnt matter Oct 29 12:09:08 im taslking to you on the phone... Oct 29 12:09:10 just a short little experiment Oct 29 12:09:27 and restart your phone Oct 29 12:09:31 so http wont load but i still have data Oct 29 12:09:35 have Oct 29 12:09:50 and did the bat treset too Oct 29 12:10:04 reset* Oct 29 12:10:14 try the little outdoor experiment for a couple of minutes where you have max reception... Oct 29 12:10:33 try to go to a website by ip Oct 29 12:10:55 like this 64.233.169.104 Oct 29 12:10:59 that should be google Oct 29 12:13:55 Dougie187: nope says fail to communicate with the server Oct 29 12:14:09 try my experiment Oct 29 12:14:28 im working i cant leave my desk Oct 29 12:14:46 man, what kind of place do you work in? Oct 29 12:14:48 what i have to do to restart playback(that dont works) ...mabe with threads? http://nopaste.org/p/ae5pyg4IN Oct 29 12:15:05 but earlier on the way to work it was not woeking Oct 29 12:15:14 when ia Oct 29 12:15:19 was outide Oct 29 12:15:31 wow whats up with connect bot Oct 29 12:15:37 brb Oct 29 12:16:07 http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/29/motorola-expected-to-cut-more-jobs-as-it-simplifies-around-andro/ Oct 29 12:16:07 back Oct 29 12:16:09 hmh? Oct 29 12:16:30 Dougie187: was that to me? Oct 29 12:16:37 no this is just in general Oct 29 12:18:07 kslater a crappy job Oct 29 12:18:25 kslater if i leave my desk i get yelled at Oct 29 12:18:58 sorry to hear that. At least you have us. Oct 29 12:19:07 haha yeah Oct 29 12:19:08 oh, maybe that's not a benefit. ;-) Oct 29 12:19:28 and an Android phone, don't forget that Oct 29 12:19:49 wow, slave labor, i would quit in a heartbeat and tell those @sshats to go to hell Oct 29 12:19:50 ugh Oct 29 12:19:53 f'ing t-mobile Oct 29 12:19:57 service keeps dropping out Oct 29 12:20:17 strangely, it happened to my wife's phone Oct 29 12:20:18 languish: do you have a g1? Oct 29 12:20:20 but not mine Oct 29 12:20:24 now it's happening to mine Oct 29 12:20:26 neekers only decent paying job i could find Oct 29 12:20:32 neekers, yeah, 2 of them Oct 29 12:20:37 ahh Oct 29 12:20:57 languish its your area prolly Oct 29 12:21:09 Delvien, no doubt Oct 29 12:21:54 weak service area? have you been a t-mo customer since before the g1? Oct 29 12:22:17 yea, since before t-mobile even came to the US Oct 29 12:22:19 languish: im in columbus ohio. best carrier here Oct 29 12:22:29 no, string signal area Oct 29 12:22:33 *strong Oct 29 12:22:55 hmm Oct 29 12:24:43 yeah, it's t-mobile messing with the network here Oct 29 12:27:01 couldn't make a call, signal indicator showed no connection, tried to make a call and got no network selected, but can use gchat just fine Oct 29 12:27:02 yeeesh Oct 29 12:27:08 now it's showing edge Oct 29 12:27:11 but no 3g Oct 29 12:27:16 go go tmo Oct 29 12:28:00 i dont have 3g in my area Oct 29 12:28:17 im on edge for the next 1-6 months Oct 29 12:28:25 i keep the 3g disabled much of the time to save battery. it's not that bad Oct 29 12:28:32 I recently purchased the g1 and also use linux...wondering how I would go about formatting an sd for use in it...I see no mention of format in handbook Oct 29 12:29:25 plb_: It should work with the Fat32 filesystem that comes from the factory Oct 29 12:29:35 plb_ dont need to format just mount it and delet the file. its in setting sd card something saying usb Oct 29 12:30:02 plb_ files you need to delete * Oct 29 12:30:21 languish: is it a requirement to pay extra for the 3g service? Oct 29 12:30:21 yeah it all popped up fine I was just curious about the formatting..I had a symbian before this and I just formatted the sd card from within the phone Oct 29 12:31:38 very fun phone to play with =) Oct 29 12:31:46 neekers, with t-mobile, it depends on how you aquire the g1 Oct 29 12:31:59 what do you mean? Oct 29 12:32:08 I did the $25 plan Oct 29 12:32:19 they said aim msn etc count as text? Oct 29 12:32:24 plb_: mount command should show you filesystem type Oct 29 12:32:27 neekers, they don't charge "extra" just for 3g per se. They try to make you get an unlimited data plan if you sign up with a contract Oct 29 12:32:44 if you buy the G1 at full price, you aren't forced to choose a data plan Oct 29 12:33:02 (full price, assuming you don't sign up for the 2 year contract) Oct 29 12:33:22 i mean will the G1 work *without* having the 3g data plan, are there any limitations other than speed Oct 29 12:33:26 but no, they don't do anything like charge you $9.99 to have 3g over edge Oct 29 12:33:54 also, you can just use wifi though Oct 29 12:33:57 but i hear wifi sucks on it Oct 29 12:34:03 tmo in my area is esge till they install 3g Oct 29 12:34:09 neekers, some people have been using the G1 with the $5.99 t-zones plan. The speed is a limited gprs connection. You do lose some functionailty Oct 29 12:34:21 Dougie187: sucks bat life hardcopre Oct 29 12:34:31 wifi works good Oct 29 12:34:35 just kills battery Oct 29 12:34:36 lol Oct 29 12:34:41 yeah Oct 29 12:34:46 plb_: i have heard people saying its hard to keep a connection with the wifi Oct 29 12:34:58 Dougie187: i dont Oct 29 12:35:09 I dunno...I just got mine yesterday and it works fine Oct 29 12:35:24 Dougie187, that depends on the chipset in their wifi router/AP, and signal strength Oct 29 12:35:26 I don't have a phone so i couldn't tell you. this is just what i have heard from other people in here. Oct 29 12:35:37 the wifi radio in the G1 is a bit weak, but it's not bad per se Oct 29 12:35:57 but there do seem to be some minor incompatibility issues that haven't been fully addressed yet Oct 29 12:36:06 with certain wifi chipsets Oct 29 12:36:12 likely it'll improve with updates Oct 29 12:36:39 i mean will the G1 work *without* having the 3g data plan, are there any limitations other than speed Oct 29 12:37:02 do you mean not having *any* data plan? or or just not having the expensive data plan? Oct 29 12:37:34 well, if you just have the $5.99 plan, what do you lose? Oct 29 12:37:41 the t-zone plan Oct 29 12:38:05 Aren't these plans detailed on their website? Oct 29 12:38:20 with the lower end plan (t-zones) you can read about it here http://androidcommunity.com/forums/f41/t-mobile-5-99-t-mobile-web-tzones-works-with-g1-4949/ Oct 29 12:38:44 I haven't personally messed with using the g1 with t-zones Oct 29 12:39:16 When I went to the tmo store yesterday...seemed everyone was buying the g1 heh Oct 29 12:39:37 heh thats the only reason people like tmobile. Oct 29 12:40:01 basically lol Oct 29 12:40:14 neekers, there's more discussion on it here http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=1446558 Oct 29 12:40:26 thanks Oct 29 12:41:07 from what I understand, tmo is going to kill the ability to use t-zones with the g1 later this year after they revamp their data plans Oct 29 12:41:25 just me or does the phone and all accessories have that new shoe smell lol Oct 29 12:43:30 my only gripe with the data plan, is that tmo requires you have a voice plan Oct 29 12:43:52 99% of people need a voice plan im sure Oct 29 12:44:04 $25 or $35 for unlimited data is and texting is exactly the price point I would want Oct 29 12:44:38 an additional $40 plus fees and taxes...well :/ Oct 29 12:44:55 d03boy, not once voip is available Oct 29 12:45:00 did they get rid of the 1GiB per month limit? Oct 29 12:45:05 I went with the $25 one but is it true that aim msn etc count as texting? Oct 29 12:45:22 plb_ depends on the IM client Oct 29 12:45:27 smr, yes, now it's 10GB per month, after which they limit you to around dialup modem speeds Oct 29 12:45:45 but they don't cut you off Oct 29 12:45:47 10GB is pretty high.. i'd be surprised if anyone got that high Oct 29 12:46:03 languish: that's awesome. I'd much rather get my speed cut than be cut off or pay $5 per megabyte or something Oct 29 12:46:11 ah..hm so what are the must have apps? Oct 29 12:47:23 smr, agreed. tmo does have some plan looming where if you have a lower end data plan (like a $20/mo plan) and you go over.. you get charged for extra data usage, but they cap it at $15 more, pretty much making it equivalent to the $35 unlimited plan Oct 29 12:47:40 but that may not be for the G1, might just be for blackberries and such Oct 29 12:48:07 plb, did you get your linux microsd formatting question answered? Oct 29 12:48:23 yeah..I just deleted all data on the card Oct 29 12:48:28 as someone suggested Oct 29 12:48:36 nod Oct 29 12:49:00 plb for future reference Oct 29 12:49:01 sudo -s Oct 29 12:49:01 enter password:xxxxxxxxxxxx Oct 29 12:49:01 umount /dev/sda1 Oct 29 12:49:01 mkfs.msdos -F16 /dev/sda1 Oct 29 12:49:01 mount /dev/sda1 /media/usbdisk Oct 29 12:49:03 exit Oct 29 12:49:05 exit Oct 29 12:49:06 just looking for some interesting apps now Oct 29 12:49:07 I had tmo before with the blackberry data plan. it was a good unlimited plan for $20, but I didn' Oct 29 12:49:09 ah thanks Oct 29 12:49:17 where sda1 is your microsd card Oct 29 12:49:23 t even have EDGE coverage where I am. Speeds were crap Oct 29 12:49:54 thanks Oct 29 12:50:03 hm 16gb cards are still a bit pricey Oct 29 12:50:08 yeah Oct 29 12:50:22 looks like my 8gb will have to do Oct 29 12:50:23 8GB is fine for now unless you just want to show off or really have the need for the storage Oct 29 12:50:29 heh Oct 29 12:50:39 so you can't install apps to memory card? Oct 29 12:50:44 not yet Oct 29 12:50:52 that sucks...hope they fix that Oct 29 12:51:01 but when you download apps from 3rd party websites, they download to the microsd card Oct 29 12:51:07 not from the market Oct 29 12:51:12 ah..well thats good at least Oct 29 12:51:13 but they dont stay on the sdcard Oct 29 12:51:26 umdk1d3, really? mine did after I installed them Oct 29 12:51:26 they are still installed to the base flash Oct 29 12:51:37 the reason being unix filesystem permissions Oct 29 12:51:37 yes, they get installed to the flash Oct 29 12:51:44 they cant be enforced on fat32 Oct 29 12:51:54 nod, makes sense Oct 29 12:52:31 so for android security to work (program separation) they need to be on a user/permission based filesystem Oct 29 12:53:06 they need to make it so the workspace to the right and left can run different things on it kind of like how on linux..now that would be awesome Oct 29 12:53:12 that's only one aspect, though. there's also the fact that the SD card can be pulled at any time, and isn't guaranteed to be there, so anything that deals with applications needs to deal with those two aspects as well. Oct 29 12:54:32 I'm just fine with the apps installing to the flash. I just want to be able to keep a copy of the apk to reinstall at a later time from local network webserver or whatever Oct 29 12:54:49 not have to redownload it every time Oct 29 12:55:16 or install from the microsd Oct 29 12:55:19 to the flash Oct 29 12:55:46 installing from SD is possible (in fact that's what happens when you download an app through the web browser) Oct 29 13:01:07 jbq, yeah, just no file browser that allows you to do it yet Oct 29 13:01:14 that I'm aware of anyway Oct 29 13:01:27 I know there are two filebrowsers out there Oct 29 13:01:58 but last time I checked, no ability to "open" the .apk's for installation Oct 29 13:02:06 Any file browser that allows to "open" (i.e. view) files will be able to do that. There's nothing specific to apks. Oct 29 13:02:17 nod, that's good to know Oct 29 13:02:50 now to get the market to download a copy of the apk to the microsd Oct 29 13:03:00 the way it works with 3rd party sites Oct 29 13:03:14 That's not possible. Oct 29 13:03:21 yeah, drm Oct 29 13:03:26 yup Oct 29 13:03:29 evil Oct 29 13:03:31 :D Oct 29 13:03:50 annoying for sure (at least for me as an engineer who's got to deal with it) Oct 29 13:03:54 nod Oct 29 13:04:32 Admittedly, going through a private area allows to install market apps even if there's no SD crd in the device, which has its own merits. Oct 29 13:04:54 true Oct 29 13:05:23 But I would definitely prefer to see more flexibility here. Oct 29 13:09:13 is there still no way to see apps in the market online without a phone? Oct 29 13:09:14 yeah, perhaps market forces can accomplish it Oct 29 13:10:27 michaelnovakjr_, http://www.android.com/market/ seems to still be the "official" site for it Oct 29 13:10:38 and it only presents the original winning apps Oct 29 13:10:57 how do you upload apps to the app market. Oct 29 13:11:03 maybe in that you can see what apps are in it? Oct 29 13:12:09 i paid my $25 and I cant see the apps Oct 29 13:12:20 Dougie187 http://market.android.com/publish Oct 29 13:12:26 and no, you can't Oct 29 13:12:37 bust Oct 29 13:12:56 I wonder if they are not puting it on the web because certain apps will be locked down or only available for certain cellular providers Oct 29 13:13:35 I just think they haven't gotten to it yet. They didn't know what to expect with devs publishing their apps Oct 29 13:13:41 providers are very authoritarian; you play by their rules if you want to use their networks Oct 29 13:14:17 languish: maybe. but I prefer to be more cynical Oct 29 13:14:24 i doubt they'll provide a way to "buy" them on the web, but likely should put up an "available in the Android market on your android device" listing Oct 29 13:14:52 I wouldn't be surprized if they did offer that service, but only through your own provider's website Oct 29 13:15:16 so you would have to log into your tmobile account to access the market Oct 29 13:16:05 I would hate that Oct 29 13:16:27 t-mobiles site has a history of breaking regularly Oct 29 13:16:44 yeah, I dealt with that for three years Oct 29 13:16:59 I couldn't understand why they couldn't get it right Oct 29 13:17:11 The site was probably developed in java :D Oct 29 13:17:15 haha Oct 29 13:18:55 I'm new to this java thing. Maybe I'm spoiled by C# and python, but things just seem harder than they should be. Maybe my puny brain is understanding "different" to be "difficult," but either way it's a pain in my arse Oct 29 13:19:00 on the sidekick you could only access a special mobile version of the t-mobile site Oct 29 13:19:05 despite the fact that you were using a "real" web browser Oct 29 13:19:55 smr, if you need help, ask Oct 29 13:20:16 Thanks ;) Oct 29 13:23:53 well looks like i cant work on my VM of Kubuntu over Remote Desktop, everytime I hit a key it gets repeated 5 times Oct 29 13:23:59 :( Oct 29 13:24:15 A lot of my frustration is just from eclipse working differently than I'd expect it to, which is no fault of eclipse's Oct 29 13:24:46 DJTachyon: can you set up a VNC server on your VM instance? Oct 29 13:25:25 Then instead of remote desktoping in you'd VNC in Oct 29 13:27:14 or just light up remote desktop on the vm directly. you never want to hit the host, always the guest.. solves problems like that (since the host has to do really weird key handling) Oct 29 13:27:33 yea i paid the $25 too Oct 29 13:27:34 lol Oct 29 13:27:34 http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/29/video-jules-the-robot-makes-convincing-argument-to-destroy-huma/ Oct 29 13:27:38 to start putting apps up Oct 29 13:27:46 its stupid i can't see what's already there Oct 29 13:27:57 ooh michaelnovakjr uploaded? Oct 29 13:28:04 not yet... Oct 29 13:28:06 brb Oct 29 13:29:19 Disconnect: can he host RDP on Kubuntu? Wouldn't he have to use something else like VNC? Oct 29 13:29:29 no it'll do either, like i said Oct 29 13:29:38 actually like i meant to say, doh Oct 29 13:29:43 but yah, it'll do either one Oct 29 13:32:17 how can it do either? Does VMWare have an RDP server built in? Oct 29 13:33:21 no (although istr virtualbox does) but it does it the same way it does vnc - with a daemon. (..why wouldn't it be able to do both? different ports, different protocols..) Oct 29 13:33:44 is there an RDP server implementation for linux? Oct 29 13:34:20 smr no rdp is not secure Oct 29 13:34:43 i was pretty sure there was, although that could be wrong - not finding it now. either way, vnc is a better bet. Oct 29 13:34:51 Delvien: neither is vnc. Oct 29 13:36:37 I secure my VNC by only accepting connections locally. I use SSH to tunnel in Oct 29 13:37:45 delvien nope but you can tunnel it Oct 29 13:38:49 you can tunnel either one. (and for the record, you are Delvien, i am Disconnect :) ..) Oct 29 13:39:13 umdk1d3: i'm planning a few more tweaks and then i'm going to stick it up on the market Oct 29 13:39:13 lol Oct 29 13:39:41 lol. weird Oct 29 13:39:53 didnt even realize i did that Oct 29 13:40:05 i talk to myself evidently Oct 29 13:43:13 Does the Droid Robot have a nickname over at google? Oct 29 13:43:40 bugdroid Oct 29 13:43:54 ah, hrmm Oct 29 13:43:55 any thoughts on adding an rss feed to the market (or some other form of "whats new since i last looked" list..?) Oct 29 13:43:58 thanks Oct 29 13:44:01 :-) Oct 29 13:44:24 Disconnect: there is a feed reader Oct 29 13:44:27 yeah, a "what's new since I last looked" function would be great Oct 29 13:44:45 Delvien: right. now what do i aim that reader (or any other) at to see new apps? Oct 29 13:45:18 languish: you can kinda do it by just reading down to the last app you installed. but thats gonna get old fast as apps start updating more regularly (so they won't show "installed") and new apps come in faster Oct 29 13:46:22 Disconnect, nod Oct 29 13:46:30 that's sort of what I've been doing Oct 29 13:46:33 gah /me has munchies Oct 29 13:46:37 i have a friend who has an HTC phone in india, not a G1. when she tired to install an app with adb install, it says that it succcesfully installed but it does not show up in the list of applications, any ideas? Oct 29 13:46:41 Disconnect: it asks you to add a fees Oct 29 13:46:57 feeds* Oct 29 13:47:16 Delvien, he doesn't mean a standard rss reader Oct 29 13:47:19 Delvien: right. reread the question - i want a list of new apps. it can be in a feed reader, it can be in the marketplace app, it can be on a webpage for all i caere.. Oct 29 13:47:25 Delvien, he means for the android market itself Oct 29 13:47:50 heh Oct 29 13:49:15 i see. sorry Oct 29 13:50:00 I'd like a feed reader widget Oct 29 13:50:14 I'd like some new widgets period :) Oct 29 13:50:19 heh Oct 29 13:50:26 good point Oct 29 13:50:42 oh man Oct 29 13:50:46 again with the no service Oct 29 13:50:49 ARGGHH Oct 29 13:51:00 these growing pains are discommunicational Oct 29 13:51:32 someone needs to make a pandora app for android Oct 29 13:52:04 I'm suprised we haven't seen a star trek tricorder app yet Oct 29 13:52:09 :/ Oct 29 13:52:35 evidence the franchise is waning Oct 29 13:53:07 but the new movie is coming out when? Oct 29 13:53:16 it has definitely had its run Oct 29 13:53:17 heh Oct 29 13:53:42 smr, no idea, though I'll see it, I suspect I'll enjoy it, but in no way appreciate it Oct 29 13:53:49 ok its #1117 Oct 29 13:53:52 I refuse to acknowledge your theory, thoraxe Oct 29 13:54:16 DannyB, hi. I had a question for you... Oct 29 13:54:40 * languish waits for a response as none was forthcoming yesterdy Oct 29 13:54:43 *day Oct 29 13:56:22 s/dy/day/ Oct 29 13:56:37 thanks B Oct 29 13:57:01 Huh. Either the bot knows when to do it, it got shut down, or it ignores /me lines. Oct 29 13:57:20 heh Oct 29 13:57:25 s/Huh/Heh/ Oct 29 13:57:25 TreyB meant: Heh. Either the bot knows when to do it, it got shut down, or it ignores /me lines. Oct 29 13:57:46 It won't let someone else fix your messages :-) Oct 29 13:57:58 lol Oct 29 13:58:01 languish: what's up Oct 29 13:58:32 Ahh heya DannyB. I was wondering.. I saw the branding page... and it restricts the use of naming apps with a derivation of Android. How is that going to be handled with so many apps being named "Andthisorthat" and "whateverDroid" ? Oct 29 13:59:38 google is just waiting a month or two, then they're gonna sue everyone and collect all their money. :) Oct 29 13:59:48 hold on one sec, let me go reread the actualr eleased guidelines and i'll give you some advice :) Oct 29 13:59:49 ::) Oct 29 13:59:57 DannyB cool thanks Oct 29 14:00:05 Disconnect, lol Oct 29 14:00:20 languish: In theory you shouldn't be naming that stuff DroidWhatever, etc Oct 29 14:00:27 Google already has all the money. Oct 29 14:00:29 ..thats how you make money with an oepn source thing :P Oct 29 14:00:32 In practice, let me go bonk someon eover the head and see if we can change it :) Oct 29 14:00:39 DannyB, awesome :) Oct 29 14:00:40 * Disconnect does agree with the ml post about "I invested a ton of effort in this name, branding, domain, etc and now, at the 11th hour, you spring this" Oct 29 14:01:08 ml post? Oct 29 14:01:10 (istr it was fitdroid or fitroid or something. i know, clearly the branding worked since i can't remember the actual name :P ..) Oct 29 14:01:18 haha Oct 29 14:01:35 well, someone should have read the branding page :/ Oct 29 14:01:39 many someones Oct 29 14:01:53 branding page came late i thought Oct 29 14:02:05 I wouldn't be suprised Oct 29 14:02:09 twidroid Oct 29 14:02:11 andnav Oct 29 14:02:15 there's a huge pile Oct 29 14:02:22 steaming pile Oct 29 14:02:25 of Oct 29 14:02:33 yah "october 2008" just like everything else... Oct 29 14:02:36 vegetable Oct 29 14:02:37 s Oct 29 14:02:41 spagehtti Oct 29 14:02:50 I'm in the detroit area and my G1 Edge or now 3G service has never worked...at all? Oct 29 14:02:57 Anyone else in the michigan area have the same issue? Oct 29 14:03:43 if you never had working data its a tmob issue, gotta get on with 611 and bitch Oct 29 14:03:51 DannyB, as an idea.. giving limited licence to use the stated naming dervivations so long as the application fits within the developers guidlines for the Market, might work Oct 29 14:04:43 Disconnect: got a link to that post? Oct 29 14:04:47 and limiting them to "Andxxx" "xxxDroid" "droidxxx" and "Android xxxx xxxx" ? Oct 29 14:04:49 I'd like to include it in my internal discussion :) Oct 29 14:04:49 i can find it prolly Oct 29 14:05:15 i cant get my g1 to show up in the emulator in ubuntu Oct 29 14:05:16 any ideas? Oct 29 14:05:24 btw, IANAL Oct 29 14:05:30 for whatever that's worth Oct 29 14:05:34 I am :) Oct 29 14:05:40 and a compiler developer Oct 29 14:05:42 ;) Oct 29 14:05:43 yep, tis why you're the man Oct 29 14:05:45 :) Oct 29 14:05:50 http://groups.google.com/group/android-discuss/browse_thread/thread/c427eea75f04be0e?pli=1 Oct 29 14:05:52 no, it's why i'm in debt Oct 29 14:05:52 ;) Oct 29 14:05:56 haha Oct 29 14:06:14 you're a lawyer and a compiler developer? Oct 29 14:06:22 smr: yes Oct 29 14:06:24 xxxDroid sounds like a robot strip club. Oct 29 14:06:29 What compiler do you work on? Oct 29 14:06:34 gcc and llvm Oct 29 14:06:39 if you pay a robot to get you off, is it still prostitution? Oct 29 14:06:42 You can't use phones in Detroit. You have to support the car companies and drive to whomever you want to speak with. Oct 29 14:06:52 thoraxe, the real question is, is it still cheating? Oct 29 14:07:06 cool. I was obsessed with compilers for a couple years a few years back. Even managed to write one here at work :D Oct 29 14:07:10 languish: if you get off another guy, but you're controlling a robot arm, is it gay? Oct 29 14:07:17 smr: that makes sense, both fields deal with arcane rules and huge, unreadable, incomprehensible masses of text. and there are awards in both fields for producing such, or making them less easily parsable... Oct 29 14:07:26 thoraxe, undoubtly. Oct 29 14:07:29 oh man... so inapropriate. Oct 29 14:07:31 +p Oct 29 14:07:32 +ed Oct 29 14:07:34 thoraxe: i think you just crossed the line. Oct 29 14:08:01 and now, you are added to the "should be banned" list. Oct 29 14:08:02 lol Oct 29 14:08:06 :( Oct 29 14:08:14 nice to know the 13 year olds got their phones on time. :( Oct 29 14:08:16 fear the reaper Oct 29 14:08:28 languish: seasons dont. Oct 29 14:08:39 hi DougieMurder Oct 29 14:08:41 :) Oct 29 14:09:06 Calling 600 just said "Your phone is not authorized in this area at this time." Oct 29 14:09:32 smr: ;) Oct 29 14:09:43 Disconnect: i'm also a registered patent attorney ;) Oct 29 14:09:48 Disconnect: which fits into your theory Oct 29 14:09:52 heh yah seriously Oct 29 14:09:54 tmccrary: i get that shit on my stupid katana. that happens when im in a timezone thats not the same as my local phone number's timezone Oct 29 14:09:59 tmccrary: 611 Oct 29 14:10:08 FWIW, the reason most of legal writing is horrible is because of bad writers, not becase you have to write like that Oct 29 14:10:13 really. Oct 29 14:10:33 you can write perfectly understandable english contracfts, and except for a few phrases required by statutes, it would be perfectly understandable Oct 29 14:10:46 well and the fact that we've gotten away from intent and into exact-wording :( Oct 29 14:10:55 DannyB: lawyers need to hire some english majors. that would be a good use of their 4 years. Oct 29 14:11:10 DannyB, it's cool with me. I got paid awhile back to review tech contracts for mistakes due to the poor writing skills if the legal beagles Oct 29 14:11:11 it doesn't happen because most partners in law firms are older than mandatory legal writing classes, and they control what their associates do Oct 29 14:11:22 They often do, don't they? Hire english majors, that is Oct 29 14:11:26 so you end up with associates who write well, then hand it to the partners and get told to rewrite it much worse ;) Oct 29 14:11:50 thanks Oct 29 14:11:53 My girlfriend is an english major/teacher and says if she gets fed up with teaching should could work at a law office Oct 29 14:12:01 i would not recommend it Oct 29 14:12:05 hahaha Oct 29 14:12:10 i don't work in private practice because it's mostly paperwork Oct 29 14:12:11 yeah bad move for you Oct 29 14:12:15 99% of law is paperwork Oct 29 14:12:19 I think english majors and lawyers should not be allowed to write documentation Oct 29 14:12:32 smr, neither should most tech writers Oct 29 14:12:35 :| Oct 29 14:12:39 or UIs Oct 29 14:12:54 Yeah, leave the UI to the engineers ;-) Oct 29 14:13:03 though, some whitepapers make for excellent sleeping aids Oct 29 14:13:06 jbq: you start coding, i'll go upstairs and see what the users want Oct 29 14:13:30 users? why not do what I want? Oct 29 14:13:41 languish: see my im? Oct 29 14:13:46 Error. [A]bort, [R]etry, [I]gnore? Oct 29 14:14:28 jbq: whoosh Oct 29 14:14:34 jbq: that was the point Oct 29 14:14:35 DannyB: amusing legal-writing story.. wif was getting divorced and her ex-mother-in-law was all paranoid (they bought a couple acres in tx, were "about to strike huge oil" etc) so she insisted they use her lawyer. commercial real-estate lawyer. in the end it cost her 5x as much, took almost a year, and my wif STILL could have taken everything he ever owned. (the first version - not even draft! - was so bad it wasn't even legally a divorce decree..) Oct 29 14:14:55 not surprising Oct 29 14:15:07 my wife is a divorce attorney Oct 29 14:15:10 so i've seen stuff like this Oct 29 14:15:34 there wasn't anything contested, it was a simple "you keep your car, i keep the cats, etc" sort of thing. Oct 29 14:15:53 if it wasn't in VA they literally could have done it w/o a lawyer at all.. Oct 29 14:15:55 those are the easiest. That's how mine was Oct 29 14:16:02 interesting fact: In a lot of states, you can't get divorced without having grounds Oct 29 14:16:08 btw you saw that link right? Oct 29 14:16:08 IE you can't get divorced simply because you want to Oct 29 14:16:19 DannyB: Right, Illinois (where I live) is a grounds state. Oct 29 14:16:30 Disconnect: yes. I included it. thanks. When mountain view wakes up we'll see what happens :) Oct 29 14:16:34 cool Oct 29 14:17:04 That's why lawyers came up with the idea of "Irreconcilable differences" Oct 29 14:17:14 and "separate and apart" Oct 29 14:17:43 DannyB: even worse, in texas common law is an absolute pain. Oct 29 14:17:57 When I got divorced my grounds were "My wife is a cheating ho bag." Oct 29 14:18:17 lol Oct 29 14:21:31 in the android market, can 2 developers have the same name? Oct 29 14:21:47 or is it unique? Oct 29 14:21:55 neekers: you can... mine is Google :) Oct 29 14:22:02 heh Oct 29 14:22:09 not really sure though :) Oct 29 14:22:22 i wonder how long that name will last Oct 29 14:25:06 ooh, looks like the t-mobile store I bought my G1 at never actually put my data plan on Oct 29 14:25:19 niiiice Oct 29 14:25:34 even though we discussed what plan to get and features I want everything Oct 29 14:25:45 and fyi evidently my wif convinced the 611 people to leave us on the existing family plan instead of forcing us to a g1-specific plan :) Oct 29 14:25:45 trigatch4: i am now. what's up? Oct 29 14:26:05 tmccrary: that seems to happen with some regularity. i suspect there's a workflow problem.. Oct 29 14:26:06 tmccrary: well at least you are getting it taken care of? Oct 29 14:26:40 Disconnect: or that tmobile store employees are morons.. which is probably more likely. Oct 29 14:27:02 they're just underpaid and undertrained Oct 29 14:27:13 Dougie187: yes and no. its still a workflow issue if it doesn't flag it "why are you selling a voice-only plan on a data phone, are you sure"... Oct 29 14:27:30 i guess thats true. Oct 29 14:27:51 languish: i wouldn't say they are underpaid... its not like they do a whole lot... they just sell cell phones. Oct 29 14:28:04 the majority of them barely do that Oct 29 14:28:21 those are the revolving door employees Oct 29 14:28:28 they don't earn much commission Oct 29 14:28:34 they're not motivated Oct 29 14:28:39 and barely trained Oct 29 14:28:53 its like a mcdonalds job. Oct 29 14:29:03 i mean it sucks that they aren't trained. but i don't think they are underpaid. Oct 29 14:29:10 look at the stories of how so many of the ones expected to anser G1 questions, were giving a total of 15 minutes with a G1 Oct 29 14:29:12 it seems like a minimum wage job to me. Oct 29 14:29:27 yea Dougie187 i agree Oct 29 14:29:29 to me, minimum wage is not a living wage Oct 29 14:29:32 does anyone know if the G1 is locked? Oct 29 14:29:37 great, I have to do a "master reset" on my phone, because data still doesn't work after they enabled it Oct 29 14:29:40 and if you're not earning a living wage, why care about your job Oct 29 14:30:08 languish: that implies that the employees are independant. i would expect highschool students to work in a tmobile store. Oct 29 14:30:39 work is work, if you don't pay even a highschool student a fair wage, don't expect them to take the work seriously. Oct 29 14:31:26 any wage is fair for a highschool student. Oct 29 14:31:32 they have almost no expenses. Oct 29 14:31:50 so their wage is almost 100% pure income. Oct 29 14:31:55 why is it the employer's business what the employee's expenses are? Oct 29 14:31:56 sorry for being a little on-topic here but KeyEvent has two separate constants KEYCODE_CLEAR and KEYCODE_DEL - I can see the del key on the keyboard (emulator) but where's the key that triggers KEYCODE_CLEAR? :) and what's the difference between them? Oct 29 14:32:16 smr: well, noones going to work at a company that pays less then cost of living. Oct 29 14:32:25 unless they have no expenses. Oct 29 14:32:28 Would it be fair for my boss to come to me and say: "Patrick, since you've got no kids and almost no debt, we're gonna cut your pay." Oct 29 14:32:33 Dougie187, a significant number of HS students that would work in a tmo store, tend to be dropouts trying to make it on their own Oct 29 14:32:38 Tauno: on the phone it's alt + del Oct 29 14:32:39 smr: no not at all. Oct 29 14:32:52 Tauno: it clears the whole EditText you're focused in Oct 29 14:33:03 languish: well, thats their fault. i don't think tmobile needs to pay them more because they dropped out of highschool. Oct 29 14:33:16 zhobbs, thanks! :) Oct 29 14:33:34 Dougie187, no, t-mobile needs to pay them more to take their job seriously. Oct 29 14:33:42 languish: thats kinda the point. if they drop out of highschool, things are not going to be as easy. Oct 29 14:33:43 i have a family member who works for tmoible, she gets well paid Oct 29 14:33:47 I just don't think that one's expenses should ever be a part of the "fair pay" equasion unless that employee's expenses are increased because of the work he does Oct 29 14:33:54 famast1: is she a sales person in the store? Oct 29 14:34:29 smr: i agree if you are referring to personal expenses, but i think a reasonable company needs to consider cost of living for their salary ranges. Oct 29 14:34:31 t-mobile store managers actually pay different employees at different rates, based on what they can get away with paying someone to do the job Oct 29 14:34:41 she was at one point, made it to manager now Oct 29 14:34:42 so if someone's desperate, they WILL take advantage of them Oct 29 14:34:53 Pay is fair if both the employee and the employer get more out of the relationship then they invest in it - that's a free market. Oct 29 14:34:55 and if you think they all pay standard corporate office set wages, you're wrong Oct 29 14:35:04 hi everybody Oct 29 14:35:10 smr: but i don't think a company should create a salary based on an individual expense report. Oct 29 14:35:12 selling phones was commision, so your either good or not Oct 29 14:35:13 Cost of living of course, but to discriminate against people who have lower cost of living is not fair Oct 29 14:35:25 also it depends on how busy the store is Oct 29 14:35:52 if you open up a business in a low traffic location, you fail Oct 29 14:35:52 are there any devices as of yet, to which the android os has been ported? Oct 29 14:35:55 languish: either way, i wouldn't say tmobile employees being underpaid is an issue. Oct 29 14:35:58 Man, I hope dalvik is fast... I have a feeling my renderer is going to be too slow Oct 29 14:36:08 your employees shouldn't suffer for your own poor choices Oct 29 14:36:11 what was the issue? I missed it all Oct 29 14:36:36 Dougie187, I disagree, knowing a few of them, I see how it is. Oct 29 14:36:40 famast1: we were discussing tmobiles recent increase in mistakes when setting up new accounts (for the g1 in particular) Oct 29 14:36:41 Once I get to optimizing I think I'm going to have to make a lot of compromises Oct 29 14:36:53 famast1: languish mentioned it was because they were underpaid and undertrained. Oct 29 14:37:04 That's part fo the reason. Oct 29 14:37:05 its not just the employee that suffers, the entire chain will suffer in low areas.. But employees have can try to move or just quit Oct 29 14:37:07 *of Oct 29 14:37:11 i agree in the undertrained, but i feel underpaid doesn't have anything to do with it. Oct 29 14:37:14 ohhh Oct 29 14:37:17 probably so Oct 29 14:37:49 t-mobile store sales employees do quit, all the time.. it's a revolving door position with high churn Oct 29 14:38:03 languish: like almost any other sale person job. Oct 29 14:38:04 which is why people get such poor service from them Oct 29 14:38:10 there's no incentive to stay Oct 29 14:38:10 languish: based on commission that is. Oct 29 14:38:19 right Oct 29 14:38:30 and the salary structure is the point of failure Oct 29 14:38:35 hey guys Oct 29 14:38:36 http://www.jars.com/multimedia/sound/resource.php/32929 Oct 29 14:38:42 how hard would it be to bring that to android? Oct 29 14:38:48 actually from what i've heard by others tmobile has decent sales support, here is why: Oct 29 14:38:58 languish: no, i think its personal motivation. maybe these people don't care to do what they are doing. or they don't know how. so they just give up. Oct 29 14:39:16 languish: maybe its just a job, so they treat it as, just a job. Oct 29 14:39:18 you will get commision on your sale, but if the customer does not stay for 13 months, they take the money back Oct 29 14:39:30 "they don't know how" = proper hiring and training Oct 29 14:39:33 famast1: how do they take your money back? Oct 29 14:39:34 D0nets: the hardest stuff should require little to no porting. i.e. signal analysis Oct 29 14:39:39 through your paycheck Oct 29 14:39:46 languish: you can't teach someone to be a good sales person. Oct 29 14:39:57 but the gui code and sound capture code will probably need to be redone Oct 29 14:40:09 languish: you can teach someone about the phone and the process, but not how to actually sell the product. Oct 29 14:40:09 ok i better get back to work myself :) Oct 29 14:40:13 Dougie187, no, but you can teach them to do basic paperwork and answer questions about your products properly Oct 29 14:40:29 languish: true. and i agree, these places do a poor job of that. Oct 29 14:40:31 I know they handed out the g1 to at least manager level early, but not THAT early Oct 29 14:40:36 tmcrary how long would it take a single experienced java developer? Oct 29 14:41:00 and if customers stopped getting "lied to" by undertrained revolving door reps they'd get pissed off less often Oct 29 14:41:23 another big thing to consider is if your realling going to a "real" tmobile store or a 3rd party who just has a tmobile sign Oct 29 14:41:45 famast1, yes that is another issue. poor oversight of the master dealers and resellers Oct 29 14:41:53 but that goes with training practices Oct 29 14:41:55 famast1: i think we are talking about real tmobile stores. Oct 29 14:41:58 you train, and review Oct 29 14:42:05 for the record, i finally got a useful answer from amazon. if you get a corrupted mp3, just "buy it" again and it'll redownload without charging. Oct 29 14:42:15 yes, that would be my family members biggest complaint. She gets more customers complaining about being ripped off when they went to a "tmobile store" when it ends up not really being one Oct 29 14:43:06 theres rules about the type of signs the 3rd party can display, but I guess it just kinds gets looked over Oct 29 14:43:33 the culture at t-mobile stores on the east coast at least, is competitive between employees which is fine, but insufficient support structure to help the employees to be competitive vs the one guy that works part time that knows his shit and wracks up sales Oct 29 14:44:00 d0nets, depends on how the signal processing is done.. if this part is compatible with the API's that Android has, then the UI porting (if you don't want it to look exactly as it does :P) would take a day max I guess. Oct 29 14:44:19 while "that guy" is a role model, the average employee isn't paid enough to "deal with his shit, and the managers shit" while not being trained properly Oct 29 14:44:32 sounds about right Oct 29 14:44:34 is there a channel more specific to android development? Oct 29 14:44:42 famast1: thats what this is. Oct 29 14:44:45 #android-dev Oct 29 14:44:45 ok Oct 29 14:44:45 haha Oct 29 14:44:49 famast1: we jt got side tracked. Oct 29 14:44:52 just* Oct 29 14:44:55 my bad :) Oct 29 14:45:22 someone should start #android-bs Oct 29 14:45:25 lol Oct 29 14:45:28 I know, I just hear alot of general android talk here (which is fine by me, just wanted to know if there was something more specific) Oct 29 14:45:30 or #tmobile-bs Oct 29 14:45:55 I think it should be split like the google groups Oct 29 14:46:07 anyone know whether you can put another carriers SIM into a g1, and have it work? (ie: rogers) Oct 29 14:46:12 #androidchat Oct 29 14:46:12 lol google could take over IRC as well Oct 29 14:46:20 * languish is there Oct 29 14:46:34 languish: i like #android-bs better ;) Oct 29 14:46:39 lol Oct 29 14:46:48 it really is a fitting name Oct 29 14:46:51 i don't like channels with dashes :/ Oct 29 14:46:53 lol Oct 29 14:46:53 great, my data service works now! Oct 29 14:46:54 Google would only take over IRC if they could inject ads into your channels every once in a while... Oct 29 14:46:57 :) Oct 29 14:46:59 and 3g just came online in my area Oct 29 14:47:10 tmccrary sweet Oct 29 14:47:34 I wasn't really expecting it until the end of Nov Oct 29 14:47:44 and now it official starts in detroit on monday Oct 29 14:47:51 but its already up Oct 29 14:48:05 RyeBrye: thats what ChanServ could be used for. Oct 29 14:48:13 every hour dump an ad in here. Oct 29 14:48:18 :) Oct 29 14:48:27 I was thinkng it would pm them to people Oct 29 14:48:33 "Go out and by colemann's butt paste today! Only 3.99 at www.walmart.com" Oct 29 14:49:01 then you click on walmart and it takes you to some other random retarded site that has nothing to do with walmart. Oct 29 14:49:04 like "Pardon me, but when you said 'lol, yu n00b, stfu!' it reminded me of this site: www.blahblahblab.com " Oct 29 14:49:11 just like the sponsored links in google. Oct 29 14:49:36 But an actually good application would be an intelligent bot that would listen and gather a FAQ together Oct 29 14:49:45 yeah Oct 29 14:49:46 and would automatically paste google links into the chat room for people Oct 29 14:49:55 and auto-post the most savor bits to bash.org Oct 29 14:49:56 so that the google links would handle the monetization Oct 29 14:50:03 s/savor/savory/ Oct 29 14:50:04 jbq meant: and auto-post the most savory bits to bash.org Oct 29 14:50:06 file this conversation under #android-bs Oct 29 14:50:11 :) Oct 29 14:50:15 michaelnovakjr: filed* Oct 29 14:50:23 So when people come in and say: "hey, does the G1 have a nuclear explosive device embedded in it?" Oct 29 14:50:35 RyeBrye: #android-bs Oct 29 14:50:39 its like the /dev/null Oct 29 14:50:46 Yeah, that works too Oct 29 14:50:53 michaelnovakjr: do you have a better conversation? Oct 29 14:50:58 haha, nope :) Oct 29 14:51:07 michaelnovakjr: then don't complain. lol Oct 29 14:51:43 haha Oct 29 14:52:48 tomorrow = ubuntu party Oct 29 14:52:52 everyone joining? Oct 29 14:52:56 yea! Oct 29 14:53:27 i'm already there! Oct 29 14:53:38 #ubuntu-party Oct 29 14:53:38 lol Oct 29 14:53:41 haha Oct 29 14:53:59 i wonder if thats a real room... Oct 29 14:54:18 omg 3 whole people! Oct 29 14:54:55 The party was getting crowded Oct 29 14:55:16 yeah... us nerds make a room stink pretty quick. Oct 29 14:55:30 :) Oct 29 14:55:40 damn ubuntu-lemonpartys Oct 29 14:55:54 :| Oct 29 14:56:15 ok on that note, time to go find some food Oct 29 14:57:24 tootles Oct 29 15:03:04 <__Alex> Anyone know how to rebuild a single app package in the android source code? There isn't a makefile in the app's directory and there isn't an ant script (build.xml), like I've been using to build my own packages. Oct 29 15:03:52 <__Alex> I certainly don't want to wait while it processes the whole damn thing, to find it only needs to build that one application. Oct 29 15:04:18 Android.mk is a makefile, actually. Oct 29 15:04:26 (but it won't work in isolation) Oct 29 15:05:05 I think you're looking for the 'mm' and 'mmm' commands, which are installed by running build/envsetup.sh - but I'm not actually familiar with them. Oct 29 15:05:58 its a pita to build everything Oct 29 15:06:15 You only have to do it once, though. Oct 29 15:06:38 still, build in isolation would be nice Oct 29 15:07:02 <__Alex> I don't see mm within the kernel tree, but it isn't a standalone program. Oct 29 15:07:04 muthu, its easy :) Oct 29 15:07:06 <__Alex> err, do Oct 29 15:07:19 michaelnovakjr: how? Oct 29 15:07:22 I think it's installed in your shell environment. Oct 29 15:07:23 <__Alex> Well, it was as easy as "make", it just took a long time. Oct 29 15:07:45 muthu_: pita's are awesome Oct 29 15:07:49 muthu_: have you ever been to pita pit? Oct 29 15:07:52 hehe Oct 29 15:09:20 <__Alex> It annoys me that they have a preference to turn off the camera's shutter sound and there is an obvious place to use it within Camera.java, but it's commented out. Oct 29 15:14:14 that's some kind of privacy thing isn't it? Oct 29 15:14:20 hey how do i make a code.google.com/p/page Oct 29 15:14:21 so people in the area know you're taking pictures Oct 29 15:14:28 im going to make this guitar app i think Oct 29 15:14:36 i have a guy that will help Oct 29 15:14:59 he actually just interviewed for a job at htc Oct 29 15:15:10 rtfm Oct 29 15:16:22 what should i call it? Oct 29 15:16:40 DroidTuner :P Oct 29 15:16:56 gootar tuner? Oct 29 15:17:13 lol Oct 29 15:17:35 i dont think we can use droid can we ? Oct 29 15:18:01 i thought i read an article where a guy had a conflict with google over using a reference to android Oct 29 15:18:06 d03boy, wait for DannyB to come back with an answer on that tomorrow Oct 29 15:18:16 I asked him about it today Oct 29 15:18:27 (i wasn;t the guy in the article) Oct 29 15:18:27 sure you can.,, it's not like google is going to sue a poor guy who made an opesource small app and used HALF a word that google uses ;) Oct 29 15:18:51 Tauno, #4 http://www.android.com/branding.html Oct 29 15:19:31 granted, DannyB's going to see if he can get it changed without affecting the strength of their brand Oct 29 15:19:45 rather the legal hold on it Oct 29 15:19:51 sure, they are saying it on their page.. but they won't use this against you in this case.. I mean.. they are human being too @ google :) Oct 29 15:20:05 TuneDroid ? Oct 29 15:20:33 Tauno, the law doesn't work that way, if they don't act to protect their IP they lose the ability to do so. though again, DannyB's going to see what they can do about it Oct 29 15:20:55 hy everybody Oct 29 15:21:06 Yes, you should probably avoid using "droid" Oct 29 15:21:11 shiese Oct 29 15:21:16 i think tunedroid would have been great Oct 29 15:21:50 ok what about Gootar Tuner? Oct 29 15:21:52 could be worse. istr that in the 90s a company tried to protect "e*" (as in "eMachine" and "eLearning" and all the rest of that crap) Oct 29 15:22:17 d0nets, Dr10dTuner Oct 29 15:22:23 :) Oct 29 15:22:29 haha Oct 29 15:22:46 that's sufficiently non-derivitive imo Oct 29 15:23:11 just started reading about the android project. is there an x server, sdl and g++ that I could use for development? or only java stuff? Oct 29 15:23:12 but IANAL Oct 29 15:23:15 As for "big companies not suing the lonely guy", it's usually not true Oct 29 15:23:19 how about Guitar Tuner ? Oct 29 15:23:26 companies have to enforce their copyright everywhere or they might lose it Oct 29 15:23:34 muthu_: __Alex : to build one app, type mmm path/to/the/app Oct 29 15:23:35 that's it Oct 29 15:23:40 not very difficult :) Oct 29 15:23:58 appearently Tauno's mad at me for contradicting him Oct 29 15:24:04 wizkoder: from what i understand android is linux but its applications are not Oct 29 15:24:28 so if android is the OS.. t-mobile the carrier.. what do you call the phone? G1? HTC Dream? Oct 29 15:24:38 g1 Oct 29 15:24:41 the current phone is the T-mobile G1 Oct 29 15:24:44 languish, yeah I heard rumors about the law you have there.. but is it really sane that an OS developer can deny anyone using some part of their trademark (or whatever) name? I mean.. for example Micfosoft - look how many products end or start with *soft or *micro that run on Microsofts OS :) Oct 29 15:24:46 there will be other android phones Oct 29 15:25:17 unfortunately in my country there is no such thing as current.. only future :p Oct 29 15:25:22 Tauno, I made that same argument :) regardless, the little guy can't afford the legal bills even if he wins. Oct 29 15:25:44 so i'm probably gonna write some mails to my carrier and ask for teh G1 Oct 29 15:25:55 eldenz, good call :) Oct 29 15:26:08 let them know there is request :p Oct 29 15:26:09 but only do it if you're developing for it Oct 29 15:26:23 it;s not the best hardware for just having it Oct 29 15:26:34 it's cool, but it has issues Oct 29 15:26:42 ok, I have no idea how things work in your contry, but If I get sued, I'm given a defending lawyer for free (if I loose the case, then I have to pay) Oct 29 15:26:46 :) Oct 29 15:27:08 Tauno: isn't this only for criminal law? Oct 29 15:27:08 Tauno, here you only get the free lawyer if it's criminal court Oct 29 15:27:18 languish, i have been waiting for thousands of years for an opensource phone : ) sms could even be non-working i would be getting one :p Oct 29 15:27:19 lawsuits are civil court Oct 29 15:27:23 There you go Oct 29 15:27:25 hey what license do i need to choose for this app? Oct 29 15:27:36 my buddy said the source code im using is gnu Oct 29 15:27:37 gplv3 Oct 29 15:27:38 eldenz: for a proper open phone you should get the moko.. Oct 29 15:27:50 D0nets: if you use gpl its probably viral. Oct 29 15:27:53 eldenz: well, your carrier is highly unlikely to get a G1, given that it's T-mobile's phone Oct 29 15:27:56 d03boy: Avoid GPL and LGPL, Apache is good Oct 29 15:27:57 viral? Oct 29 15:28:02 moko sux though Oct 29 15:28:17 eldenz, the G1 is not an open source phone. The hardware is not open source. there ARE open source devices, the G1 is not one of them. The OS (android) is *mostly* open source. Oct 29 15:28:17 D0nets: viral == expands to cover the project that uses the code Oct 29 15:28:27 it's for every case AFAIK.. so you just can't sue random poor people because they don't have the money to defend them.. but either way.. I don't have experienced this myself so I can't say for sure Oct 29 15:28:38 Disconnect, i might said it wrong... i want a smartphone with the features the G1 has for which i /can/ develop apps myself without too much of a hassle Oct 29 15:29:03 iphone is available in way more countries/providers and you can dev apps Oct 29 15:29:06 eldenz: the closest you'll get, most likely, is if HTC sells the same handset to your carrier Oct 29 15:29:07 eldenz, as I said, if you're developing apps for android, then it's cool to get the G1 to test them on :) Oct 29 15:29:29 gdsx, hmm, that's bad news then.. but i'll ask anyway for some android powered phones Oct 29 15:29:54 eldenz, but you have to make sure you can access a t-mobile account.. because the phone has to be "initialized" with a working t-mobile SIM card and account each time it's fully reset (master reset) Oct 29 15:29:57 Disconnect, problem with iphone is you need a mac to code apps, afaik Oct 29 15:30:12 gdsx: I've started to believe that HTC actually doesn't want to tupport Android, and that is the reason G1 is only sold by the carrier Oct 29 15:30:38 if that is the case, we'll never see an HTC phone with android Oct 29 15:30:42 uh, asus wants also an android device Oct 29 15:30:44 nice Oct 29 15:31:00 loke, the carriers still control the game Oct 29 15:31:03 loke: the G1 is T-mobile's phone. The hardware itself is not called G1 Oct 29 15:31:09 languish: no Oct 29 15:31:27 loke: and as for whether there will be future HTC Android phones, only time will tell Oct 29 15:31:55 there are two non-htc comnpanies that have announced android phones Oct 29 15:31:57 languish: the carriers only do stuff like that in the US, but even in the US you can usually (except for the G1 and Iphone) always buy a normal phone directly from, say, Nokia Oct 29 15:31:59 Disconnect, and i have my problems with apple (although they create nice and well working things). but they put stones in your way over and over for which you even pay. i just don't like their philosophy sometimes Oct 29 15:32:02 and then they will not be neutered Oct 29 15:32:20 eldenz: then you'll hate the g1 philosophy... Oct 29 15:32:32 why Disconnect? :) Oct 29 15:33:08 gdsx: I really nike the HTC hardware for the phones, but I just can't stand windows ce Oct 29 15:33:18 eldenz: cuz its a closed phone. no reflashing (so no platform changes that don't come from tmobile), no replacing built-in apps, bunch of google-only apis, no root.. Oct 29 15:33:20 eldenz, currently, for the G1, you can only develop for the java userspace. You CANNOT (yet anyway) flash the firmware with your own modded version of android Oct 29 15:33:33 what license should i choose if i want the tuner to be free, but eventually make a pay version with chords and metronome and such? Oct 29 15:34:07 d0nets: again, Apache is a good fit for this Oct 29 15:34:10 d0nets: free as in freedom or free as in no cost? Oct 29 15:34:18 no cost Oct 29 15:34:20 (and freedom for whom?) Oct 29 15:34:35 well i could leave the tuner open source Oct 29 15:34:36 d0nets: an no cost. then just normal commercial licensing Oct 29 15:34:38 oh too bad ;< but anyway, i'm comparing it to the iPhone which limits me even more i think Oct 29 15:34:46 d0nets: just license your limited version at 0 cost Oct 29 15:34:46 cbeust: apache is terrible for that.. Oct 29 15:34:57 if you're not open sourcing it, what do you need a license for? If you *are* open sourcing it, good luck making any money off it :) Oct 29 15:35:03 could i make the tuner open, and when it evolves to fit the needs, add the other features in a pro version and profit off of it? Oct 29 15:35:20 and remember, regardless of license, you can do what you want with it as well. gpl doesn't bind you, for example, if its 100% your original work. Oct 29 15:35:49 its source code from a java tuner with gnu license Oct 29 15:35:54 D0nets: yep. but that means you have to be amazingly anal about patches and contributions from teh world - they -must- assign copyright and all interests to you or you can't do the pro .. Oct 29 15:36:03 hrm Oct 29 15:36:06 d0nets: then derivative works need to be licensed similarly Oct 29 15:36:11 d0nets: if it's GPL, then you have to license it as GPL too. There is no way around that Oct 29 15:36:18 whats "a gnu license"? gpl? lgpl? some other license? but you have to work within their license Oct 29 15:36:35 so i have to use gnu? Oct 29 15:36:48 if you use code protected by gnu, yes Oct 29 15:36:49 Don't. Oct 29 15:36:50 my buddy said its really basic code Oct 29 15:36:53 and he would be rewriting it Oct 29 15:36:57 and i could use my own license Oct 29 15:37:03 gpl = gnu public license Oct 29 15:37:04 d0nets: ask him to pick a more reasonable license? Oct 29 15:37:14 lol Oct 29 15:37:15 does anyone know how to tell eclipse to debug as android application all the time? Oct 29 15:37:16 ok Oct 29 15:37:23 instead of asking me? Oct 29 15:37:28 so gplv3 will work if i want to make a pro version later Oct 29 15:37:34 using the open tuner as a base? Oct 29 15:37:38 d0nets, the code uses javax.sound.sampled.* sure you can work around it in Android that easily? Oct 29 15:37:40 gpl1 gpl3 its all gnu licence Oct 29 15:37:54 he said so Oct 29 15:37:57 but im not sure Oct 29 15:38:13 but there are other tuners out there, we can get an idea of it Oct 29 15:38:20 d0nets: no, by "more reasonable" I meant "not GPL, and not LGPL" Oct 29 15:38:40 arg so what do you suggest gdsx Oct 29 15:38:44 D0nets: "someday i'll not be stealing" doesn't fly in licensing disputes Oct 29 15:38:54 d0nets: something BSD/MIT/Apache-like Oct 29 15:39:10 d0nets: it'll likely be informative for you to read some of the licenses: opensource.org Oct 29 15:39:11 hmmm BSD \o/ Oct 29 15:39:20 yea im gnub Oct 29 15:39:32 i didnt know creating a google code page was so complicated Oct 29 15:39:34 can i change it later? Oct 29 15:39:35 lol Oct 29 15:39:49 how about you get the app working, and then decide what you want to do with respect to licensing ;) Oct 29 15:40:19 well like i said, im creating a google code page just for organization Oct 29 15:40:30 duncanfoo: the parts d0nets uses will dictate what license he uses, if he's using other code Oct 29 15:40:32 and? Oct 29 15:40:34 and to claim the comain Oct 29 15:40:36 domain Oct 29 15:40:38 well, those can be replaced Oct 29 15:40:39 duncanfoo: which is why it's important to decide licensing stuff now Oct 29 15:40:41 and it asks what license, but can i change it later? Oct 29 15:40:43 disagree Oct 29 15:41:08 the most important thing is to get something going Oct 29 15:41:22 you can spend all day in talks about licensing, when the important thing the app Oct 29 15:41:23 yes Oct 29 15:41:32 and keep in mind google code is for open source :) Oct 29 15:41:35 typical delaying tacting ;) Oct 29 15:41:39 tactic even Oct 29 15:41:40 like i asked, cam i able to change the license once i get it working? Oct 29 15:41:50 can* Oct 29 15:41:51 you can do whatever you like if its your code ;) Oct 29 15:41:52 no Oct 29 15:41:53 am* Oct 29 15:42:05 technically if you specify a licence on google code, and upload code to it that the public can reach, it constitutes releasing the code under that licence Oct 29 15:42:19 so if you "change your mind later" you could run into trouble Oct 29 15:42:24 right, im trying to figure out what license Oct 29 15:42:27 not really Oct 29 15:42:28 but it seams like i need to read Oct 29 15:42:34 version X of the code Oct 29 15:42:37 is released under that license Oct 29 15:42:40 if you are the only contributor Oct 29 15:42:56 then there is no issue in changing the licensing to whatever you like Oct 29 15:43:05 ieatlint: you can change your mind for a new version. you can even change your initial terms - remember that gpl (for example) applies to the person distributing. if you otherwise own all the rights, you are not bound by that. Oct 29 15:43:19 if you use other components, then you have to be sure your license is compatible with that license Oct 29 15:43:20 Disconnect, kinda Oct 29 15:43:27 you can't rescind the gpl Oct 29 15:43:37 eg witness spring, which just went "paid" for new patches/versions Oct 29 15:43:42 you cannot change the license of an already released piece of code.. you can re-release hte code under a new version Oct 29 15:43:49 this is kinda a stupid conversation to have for software that isn't written yet Oct 29 15:43:52 indeed Oct 29 15:43:55 like I said Oct 29 15:43:59 write the code, and then worry about the license Oct 29 15:44:00 licence fights always are :) Oct 29 15:44:08 you can change the license by not distributing it or by changing the terms for NEW DISTRIBUTIONS. what you can't do is tell someone who already has it "btw, give it back" Oct 29 15:44:28 (new distributions as new downloads/copies/emails/whatever method its sent by..) Oct 29 15:45:05 1.0 gpl .. 1.1 (even with no code changes) MyCommercialRocksLicense .. but you have to own the code, and it sounds like he doesn't. Oct 29 15:45:31 correct... but 1.0 would still be gpl Oct 29 15:45:41 also, if you cause confusion, you can inadvertantly invalidate parts of your licensing. as someone could claim you weren't comitted to your licensing Oct 29 15:45:46 only for those people who already have it. Oct 29 15:46:04 well, those who have it can redistribute it though Oct 29 15:46:09 if i release 1.0 right now as gpl, and nobody downloads it, i can change it with no worries at all. if 1 person downloads it, i can still change it and say "tough luck" Oct 29 15:46:15 ieatlint: exactly Oct 29 15:46:26 Yep. But you could still even have a 1.0 version that was both GPL and also another license - a lot of companies will do the "community" / "enterprise" versions of stuff where they have all contributors give them rights to the code - and they then have the dual license option Oct 29 15:46:29 for that matter though, and this is fun, i can release 1.0 under the gpl for $200. Oct 29 15:46:42 RyeBrye: thats what i hate about libqt in fact. Oct 29 15:46:44 someone can obviously fork the GPL version Oct 29 15:46:57 Yeah, dual licensing gets confusing Oct 29 15:47:02 qpe requires per-device licensing.. so your apps are either gpl or you pay something like $25 per installation. Oct 29 15:47:03 yeah, i'm not a huge fan of the gpl because of stupid shit like that Oct 29 15:47:04 The problem with gpl is that pretty much nobody will be able to reuse your code, especially companies Oct 29 15:47:18 errr... Oct 29 15:47:21 that isn't a probem Oct 29 15:47:23 that is the goal Oct 29 15:47:26 Companies have frequently blanket bans on using gpl code and sometimes even lgpl Oct 29 15:47:31 you cannot reuse the code, unless your code is GPL Oct 29 15:47:43 Yeah, if you choose GPL you do it because you want only free stuff using it Oct 29 15:47:54 Or... Free stuff + TiVo's Oct 29 15:47:56 and the solution for that is dual licensing ;) Oct 29 15:47:56 ;) Oct 29 15:48:01 duncanfoo, you can if you don't release it Oct 29 15:48:07 you can what? Oct 29 15:48:23 RyeBrye, wrong, you have the option to only sell gpl code Oct 29 15:48:25 still having the same conversation? Oct 29 15:48:28 even if you didn't write it Oct 29 15:48:31 and what is the point of code you don't release? :) Oct 29 15:48:37 you can look at the code... wow, that's cool Oct 29 15:48:37 Internal use Oct 29 15:48:40 beatiful code Oct 29 15:48:45 the gpl says the code must be provided for free (or reasonable fee) to your customers Oct 29 15:48:46 depends on the structure of your organization Oct 29 15:48:53 gpl doesn't cover web services particularly well.. Oct 29 15:48:58 most companies are not flat Oct 29 15:49:00 gpl doesn't say the software has to be free Oct 29 15:49:07 just that you have to provide the source to it Oct 29 15:49:07 so i can go on the street corner and sell copies of linux for $100 a pop and tell anyone who wants it for free to fuck off Oct 29 15:49:16 and you cannot in particular distribute the GPL code to subsiduaries Oct 29 15:49:25 without violating the license Oct 29 15:49:26 so you can take all the gpl code you want, mung it up with your proprietary bits and sell services from it. no problem until you ship actual cds or devices.. Oct 29 15:49:27 Yeah, but doesn't GPLV3 say that if your web software provides a download link that gets the source of that version, somoen modifying it wouldn't be able to get rid of that? Oct 29 15:49:27 and if someone pays me $100, then i am obliged to provide them with the source on request Oct 29 15:49:39 yes Oct 29 15:49:40 (And they can then redistribute that source for free independent of me) Oct 29 15:49:44 I respectfully request the respective developers to please return to their applications for the benefit of all and sundry Oct 29 15:49:47 yes Oct 29 15:49:53 So has anyone got some kind of proxying/tethering setup working yet? Oct 29 15:50:06 languish: i can't - IP problems. no coding @ work :) Oct 29 15:50:13 Good local time everyone! Oct 29 15:50:17 Disconnect haha Oct 29 15:50:41 (although i'm the sysadmin, all the nda/noncompete/etc stuff is for developers. and its doubly dangerous since our main app is java.) Oct 29 15:50:44 Disconnect - set up an SSH tunnel and do the coding on a home computer... place-shift coding! ;) Oct 29 15:50:51 anyway, in general, just use the gpl unless you intend to make money off your program Oct 29 15:50:54 * Disconnect hasn't so much as looked at the code, but its still not good. Oct 29 15:51:18 Ah, gotcha - your main ap does something in the same space as tethering on android would? Oct 29 15:51:28 nope Oct 29 15:51:44 but your NDA / noncompete is like "Any code you write is OURS BITCH"? Oct 29 15:51:50 its just a very broad non-compete. besides, i'm @ work... any code i write at work, etc.. Oct 29 15:52:07 ieatlint: disagree. In general, just use any license you want except GPL :) Oct 29 15:52:19 ah Oct 29 15:52:19 Yeah, I gotcha Oct 29 15:52:26 enough license talk :) Oct 29 15:52:35 I telecommute... So I guess... any time I am connected to my VPN I'm at work? Oct 29 15:52:41 Cedric2, i'd probably agree with a lot of that... i tend to have issues with parts of the gpl Oct 29 15:52:42 its an infinite loop! Oct 29 15:52:58 most religious wars are Oct 29 15:53:02 next... vi vs emacs Oct 29 15:53:04 * Disconnect notices that the various lawyers disappeared for this talk :) Oct 29 15:53:21 ieatlint: it's really not that religious, 99% of the industry agrees that GPL is evil :) Oct 29 15:53:38 #licensing Oct 29 15:53:52 Cedric2, what would you recommend for an open source licence? (and this isn't a bait question, i'm honestly interested) Oct 29 15:54:03 ASL2 Oct 29 15:54:25 ieatlint: Apache and BSD are reasonably safe and leave the door open to a lot of options Oct 29 15:54:31 Public Donain Oct 29 15:54:34 DOmain Oct 29 15:54:41 Cedric2: if "the industry" in this context means the cell hardware industry, that's clearly true (although they get over it when needed, c.f. linux). Outside hardware vendors and carriers, folks are very accomodating. Oct 29 15:54:46 I hear the Eclipse license is decent too Oct 29 15:55:00 andyross: no I mean the software industry in general Oct 29 15:55:17 I know a few projects that are using Creative Commons licenses for code - which are a bad fit IMO Oct 29 15:55:18 luatio sus Oct 29 15:55:45 this conversation >> /dev/null Oct 29 15:55:49 Then you're off base, in my experience. The GPL used to scare people c. 1996. These days it's very well understood and generally accepted. Only a bunch of BSD fanboien care, for the most part. Oct 29 15:56:25 heh, yeah, there's a reason why CC uses non-CC licences for code Oct 29 15:56:35 You would have to define "generally accepted", but I have yet to encounter a software company that is fine with having GPL code in its code base Oct 29 15:56:53 In my experience, software companies are deadly scared of the GPL Oct 29 15:57:11 because a developer accidentally importing a GPL source could potentially force their entire software to become open source Oct 29 15:57:12 Yeah, and even LGPL by association - but some big projets like Hibernate get widely used in spite of the LGPL Oct 29 15:57:15 Well, duh, because unless the code base is itself GPL, that would be a license violation. But software companies (*especially* software companies) use GPL code all the time, and tend to like it. Oct 29 15:57:18 Cedric2: agian, depends on what the codebase is doing. we've most likely got some gpl code, but we don't distribute the app so it doesn't apply. Oct 29 15:57:23 Ditto. I've worked at a company that prefered to write equivalent libraries from scratch rather than touch GPL code. Oct 29 15:57:25 (I have doubts on how enforceable this is, but it's a separate discussion) Oct 29 15:57:33 simma down now Oct 29 15:57:46 jbq: ..maybe because libraries shouldn't be gpl? Oct 29 15:58:01 Cedric2: my roommates all work for a company that hacks on samba and freebsd to sell distributed storage systems. theyre quite huge, in fact. Oct 29 15:58:05 I'll shut up now. Clearly I've gone and stepped in a religious flame, not a license discussion. Apologies. Should have waited for context after connecting. Oct 29 15:58:20 and i'd love to see sw companies avoiding gpl stuff like gcc and still do linux dev Oct 29 15:58:36 Disconnect: using gpl tool and importing gpl source code are different things Oct 29 15:58:45 ..s/gcc/libc/ Oct 29 15:59:02 Disconnect, using gcc or glibc doesn't constitute them being part of your code base Oct 29 15:59:20 Fortunately, compiling code with gcc doesn't automatically make that code gpl :) Oct 29 15:59:32 Cedric2: yes, but fearing/hating the *use* of GPL code and the *import* of GPL code are equally different things. If you're going to be pednatic, the pedantry cuts both ways. :) Oct 29 15:59:46 i actually think that it is very important for you to consider the nature of your project when choosing a license. any general bias toward one or the other is a losing strategy. Oct 29 15:59:51 ieatlint, invite your friends to #licensing it's a great place to discuss the GPL and other fun facts! Oct 29 16:00:13 heh Oct 29 16:00:15 i typically favor GPL when working on end-user applications, to prevent someone from slapping a corporate face on it and charging for it. Oct 29 16:00:19 (for instance) Oct 29 16:00:19 we're not interested in facts, thanks Oct 29 16:00:25 but favor other licenses for other sorts of projects Oct 29 16:00:29 appearently not Oct 29 16:00:51 jaste: ruling out GPL is never a losing strategy :) Oct 29 16:00:54 hmm I dont see what the war is about seems like mkost peole are saying is they hate gpl Oct 29 16:01:01 cause gpl1/2 is shit Oct 29 16:01:03 jasta, but a corporate face can do just that, generally Oct 29 16:01:23 Let's have a big anti-GPL group hug Oct 29 16:01:31 personally I dont care what my code is used for at all so long as they dont release an identical project making money off me Oct 29 16:01:31 ronnyek-_: depends on what you are doing with it. Oct 29 16:01:51 if they want to make some derivitive works down the road that does 100x what my thing did and serves a diff purpose Oct 29 16:01:54 jasta: remember that they can most likely take it, alter it, sell the binaries and provide sources upon request... but only to people who purchased the bins. Oct 29 16:02:02 say like I write a audio codec and somone wants to allow playback in their media pap Oct 29 16:02:05 Cedric2: i don't think you even need to know the context of this discussion to see that you're wrong. Oct 29 16:02:07 more power to them Oct 29 16:02:10 anyway, i'll remove myself from the licence topic per languish's pleas Oct 29 16:02:12 you dont even need to know what the GPL is to know it. Oct 29 16:02:48 jasta: you're right in the sense that I bet most people who picked GPL for their software didn't realize the implications Oct 29 16:02:51 don't categorically deny the validity of any idea ;) Oct 29 16:02:51 I've been in software for 10-15yr Oct 29 16:03:02 and they would probably have picked a different license had they known Oct 29 16:03:09 gpl has and will never be a license of second thought let alone choice Oct 29 16:03:22 Can we just accelerate ot Godwin's Law and wrap this up? Oct 29 16:03:36 jasta: I categorically deny this idea: "Hitler was awesome and misunderstood." Oct 29 16:03:42 I have a newbie repo/git question. I'm resubmitting a patch, but sync reports there have been intervening commits. Do I need to worry about that? Oct 29 16:03:46 There, Godwin's Law invoked. Oct 29 16:03:47 morrildl: with gpl nazi or bsd nazi? oooh or both. Oct 29 16:03:52 Cedric2: certainly not true in my case. Do you have any actually, y'know, evidence that "most" (!) GPL authors regret their choice? This is just dumb. Stop being a nazi. Oct 29 16:03:55 Ack. Simud. Oct 29 16:04:08 I guess Disconnect just godwined this for us Oct 29 16:04:14 Cedric2: well, i am someone who thoughtfully understands a wide range of open source licenses, and i still choose GPL for many projects because it is appropriate. Oct 29 16:04:26 free lunch is here, yay dotcom :) bbl Oct 29 16:04:43 doesn't gpl just ensure that these shady cell companies don't take android and make it a closed piece of crap Oct 29 16:04:44 morrildl: are you the developer in the google android app video? Oct 29 16:04:51 gpl is like throwing a hot ass lady in the streets in a glass box Oct 29 16:04:52 i think for this use, gpl sounds like the only way to go Oct 29 16:04:54 blue balls you all day long Oct 29 16:05:06 gpl3 and shit is moving in the right direction mostly Oct 29 16:05:11 ronnyek-_: best analogy of the day so far Oct 29 16:05:14 rubyonlinux: not necessarily. Oct 29 16:05:39 gpl is the license of choice for elitests everywhere Oct 29 16:05:43 hey, all Oct 29 16:05:47 yeah, 'cause I'd want to work my ass off on a project and let some commercial company take it and make money off my work. Oct 29 16:05:54 GPL is terrible (rolls eyes) Oct 29 16:05:58 Of course, the fact that rms is a douchebag doesn't help :) Oct 29 16:05:59 gdsx: run away! Save yourself! Oct 29 16:06:01 I'm sure you're enjoying this discussion, but at this point, you're preventing people with questions from getting help Oct 29 16:06:10 So please take the license discussion elsewhere Oct 29 16:06:20 Oh for the love of Stallman please stop. Can we just all agree to think we're right and shut up about it all? Oct 29 16:06:33 neekers: which video? Oct 29 16:07:02 the video decribing how to create a simple android app Oct 29 16:07:25 duncanfoo: theres tons of other licenses that prevent that sort of thing Oct 29 16:07:27 like lgpl Oct 29 16:07:29 neekers: he's in it, but he's not the _developer_ Oct 29 16:07:30 or gpl3 Oct 29 16:07:32 * jasta hides Oct 29 16:07:34 I am saying gpl as in gpl 1 Oct 29 16:07:51 well, there is only one developer in it... :o) Oct 29 16:07:51 "Asustek to launch Android handset in 1H09" Oct 29 16:07:53 fadden0 and/or fadden: Have you seen this? http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/7370c2eb736fd013 Oct 29 16:07:54 http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20081029PD215.html Oct 29 16:08:14 neekers: yeah that one is me Oct 29 16:08:30 oh cool , pleased to meet you Oct 29 16:08:36 ronnyek-_: stop, please Oct 29 16:08:36 Cedric2, another other manufacturers that you'd like to tell us about? :-) Oct 29 16:08:37 neekers: hi :) Oct 29 16:08:50 I'm just posting public links, nothing more :) Oct 29 16:09:02 I realize that, that's why I'm asking Oct 29 16:09:13 you can private message me. I don't mind. ;-) Oct 29 16:14:36 ...wow, yeah, there were clearly tons of people waiting in the wings with questions.. :) Oct 29 16:14:38 off to work later folks Oct 29 16:15:13 Disconnect: don't look a gift straw man in the mouth ;) Oct 29 16:15:24 Disconnect, they failed over to #android-dev Oct 29 16:15:42 Yeah, but #android-bs is still open for discussons on licensing Oct 29 16:16:03 RyeBrye: ...and if that's a joke, it shouldn't be. Oct 29 16:16:13 * morrildl goes to create #android-bs Oct 29 16:17:22 this licensing convo is going on for like an hour now Oct 29 16:17:44 michaelnovakjr: it was done until you wnet and brought it up again. way to go. :( Oct 29 16:17:51 that is 00:59:59 too long Oct 29 16:18:50 it was about 30 mins.. original question was d0nets asking about his app Oct 29 16:19:22 so 00:29:59 too long Oct 29 16:20:00 he had a legit question (eventually, once it was dragged out of him) .. although he didn't like the answer so he asked a few more times.. Oct 29 16:20:31 well, he is st0ned Oct 29 16:20:39 :| Oct 29 16:22:00 so wehn are activities destroyed? Oct 29 16:22:27 morrildl: any updates on when the market will keep previous information when you update an app? Oct 29 16:22:41 or when we can see apps online? Oct 29 16:24:57 duncanfoo: whenever the system needs some resources Oct 29 16:25:10 Hi all, does anyone know of any audio issues with the android emulator under vista? I'm trying to play out an MP3 with some pretty straightforward code (basically cut and paste from a tutorial), that shows no errors, however no audio comes out. The -useaudio flag doesn't seem to work any more and there are no other apps running, so I'm kinda out of ideas at this point Oct 29 16:25:45 cedric2: I'm havingt hte same discussion on #android-dev now :) Oct 29 16:26:04 UKCoder, do you hear other audio stuff? like when you hit the volume up/down buttons on the side of the device-graphics Oct 29 16:26:08 UKCoder: no I haven't come across anything like that, well except when I don't have headphones plugged into my laptop ;) Oct 29 16:26:59 On a related note, esr bought a G1 :-) http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=578 Oct 29 16:27:00 a total noob question.. what package should my app use if I don't have control of any domain? (hackbod: "you need to use a package name for some domain you have control over.") Oct 29 16:27:02 :p if I tune into my radio station via my regular browser, or bring something up in audacity I can hear things just find Oct 29 16:27:12 find=fine Oct 29 16:28:17 Cedric2: speaking of batshit-crazy.... :) Oct 29 16:28:41 Tauno: you might want to buy a domain, it's only a few dollars per years these days and worth the investment, even if you never hook it up to a web site Oct 29 16:28:59 tauno: just make one up then, com.tauno.myapp or something like that Oct 29 16:29:10 Disconnect: yeah, I feel a bit dirty knowing he bought one of our phones, but well Oct 29 16:29:47 eldenz: Ya know, I hadn't even seen the (somewhat hidden) volume buttons on the side of the emulator.... let me see what happens Oct 29 16:30:03 * Disconnect used to know him a very long time ago. Oct 29 16:30:04 eldenz: yup, I hear the beep beep Oct 29 16:31:40 Cedric2, so I register awesomesoftware.com and then just use that like I really was a big software vendor with that name? Sounds fun :P Oct 29 16:32:09 jt436: no specific date, but soon Oct 29 16:32:11 UKCoder, yeah they aren't too obvious to spot :) stumbled upon them by accident Oct 29 16:32:29 jt436: if you update now, your ratings and such will eventually come back, although not immediately Oct 29 16:32:31 Tauno: exactly :) Oct 29 16:32:42 And from that point on, you own "com.awesomesoftware", how cool is that? Oct 29 16:33:02 :P Oct 29 16:33:18 morrildl: hmm ok Oct 29 16:34:05 awesomesoftware.com is already taken... :o) Oct 29 16:34:07 * jt436 is going to see all his info vanish ;p Oct 29 16:34:17 morrildl: what about seeing market apps online? Oct 29 16:36:03 michaelnovakjr: ? I can see them fine right now Oct 29 16:36:12 without a phone? Oct 29 16:36:26 on your computer morrildl ? Oct 29 16:36:30 Can I download the market app from somewhere and install it on my emulator? I guess not but it's worth asking I guess :) Oct 29 16:36:40 michaelnovakjr: ahhh, you mean over the series of tubes Oct 29 16:36:58 indeed, i don't have a device yet morrildl :) Oct 29 16:37:30 A UI on the series of tubes is on the Market roadmap, but right now we're focusing on the on-device experience (which is fancy-speak for, "later" :)) Oct 29 16:37:41 :) Oct 29 16:37:47 morrildl: can it run in the emulator? Oct 29 16:38:11 eldenz: I've put the really simple code on pastebin http://pastebin.com/d18317ad2 Oct 29 16:38:49 basically it's a button that starts up a MediaPlayer instance, loads an MP3 , prepares and starts it Oct 29 16:40:00 michaelnovakjr: good question. It might run, but it probably wouldn't be able to install anything. And I'm not even 100% sure it'd run, since the current build assumes it runs from the system image. Oct 29 16:40:21 UKCoder, i'm sorry i don't know anything about it... just asked because that info was missing :x Oct 29 16:42:09 ah no worries Oct 29 16:42:27 anyone else in here familiar with MediaPlayer? Oct 29 16:42:56 a little bit Oct 29 16:43:22 what do you want to know Oct 29 16:44:31 marcone: I've posted a small code example http://pastebin.com/d18317ad2 where I've basically got a button that starts up a mediaplayer, I don't get any errors, but I also don't get any sound Oct 29 16:45:10 device or emulator? Oct 29 16:45:13 emulator Oct 29 16:45:25 do you have sound at all from the emulator? Oct 29 16:45:42 yup, if I hit the vol up and down button I hear the beep beep Oct 29 16:45:55 what's your logcat say UKCoder Oct 29 16:46:09 have you tried playing your mp3 in the music player? Oct 29 16:47:16 UKCoder: pastebin your logcat Oct 29 16:47:42 michaelnovakjr: damn it... ya know, I'm still getting used to using the DDMS view in eclipse :) Oct 29 16:48:07 looks like there's an illegalstateexception being thrown, I'd been checking the console before :) Oct 29 16:48:38 can you paste the whole output.. might make it easier to sniff out the problem Oct 29 16:48:45 oh MediaPlayer :) Oct 29 16:48:55 sure one sec, let me get a clean run again without me fiddling with anything :) Oct 29 16:49:25 oh, I see the problem... Oct 29 16:49:38 you shouldn't call prepare() on a MediaPlayer that you got from MediaPlayer.create() Oct 29 16:49:52 (it's already prepared) Oct 29 16:50:22 ahhhhhh Oct 29 16:50:43 says so right in the javadoc :) Oct 29 16:51:24 there we go! Oct 29 16:51:26 :D Oct 29 16:51:41 excellent, thanks for pointing that out marcone Oct 29 16:51:59 marcone: my mediaplayer hacking was sidetracked by email app hacking... Oct 29 16:52:13 so i'm probably going to just let 1.1 changes for ogg vorbis and such slip... Oct 29 16:52:16 Register Me Oct 29 16:52:20 but iw ill be back to them soon Oct 29 17:17:00 does anyone know if there are good headphones available for the G1? Oct 29 17:17:32 There are headphone *adapters* available, so you can plug in whatever good headphones you want. Oct 29 17:17:38 I use an adapter Oct 29 17:17:41 i mean without requiring an adapter. just looking to pick up some decent comfortable ones without that stupid microphone piece Oct 29 17:17:48 hows A2DP coming along? Oct 29 17:18:01 comfortable is the key Oct 29 17:18:29 good, comfortable headphones with an HTC usb connector on them might be a bit hard to find. Oct 29 17:18:30 jasta: if you dont mind the adapter, you can use some supra-aural headphones for light use. Oct 29 17:18:32 jasta: http://www.amazon.com/T-Mobile-Touch-Stereo-Headphone-Adapter/dp/B000RU8YMY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=apparel&qid=1225300682&sr=8-1 Oct 29 17:18:35 unix_lappy: SanMehat is working on it. then tmob will have to do an update. so .... not good unless you have an engineering device. Oct 29 17:18:47 jasta: Those adapters are tiny Oct 29 17:19:06 * Disconnect ordered a 2-pack of right-angle ones for $9 yesterday. and a 3-in-one for using in the jeep Oct 29 17:19:07 Disconnect: yea, 2009 is the year of Android ;-) Oct 29 17:19:26 hmm yeah, for $10 maybe thats just the way ill go Oct 29 17:19:33 romainguy_: I have a question about my patch, can I msg you about it? Oct 29 17:19:37 sure Oct 29 17:19:45 i should really start hitting on root access. but i'd need a friend with Oct 29 17:20:00 an engineering bootloader to make it worthwhile.. cuz i mostly want to be able to reflash :) Oct 29 17:20:22 (flashing running systems from userspace is an old and well-solved problem in embedded linux..) Oct 29 17:20:49 esp since you can flash/test/flash/test.. the bootloader until you are happy. you just can't reset. Oct 29 17:21:14 http://gizmodo.com/5070455/t+mobile-g1-unlock-now-available Oct 29 17:21:50 ...so? thats sim unlock. tmob will do that for me now, all i need to do is call and say i'm possibly going overseas. Oct 29 17:22:29 to bad 3G wont work. Oct 29 17:24:43 havent heard of people successfully getting a sim unlock before the 90 day period. Oct 29 17:25:16 long-term good customers can generally just ask Oct 29 17:26:25 zomg unlocked Oct 29 17:26:52 im actually curious to try something once A2DP is supported Oct 29 17:27:09 an A2DP car stereo would be really slick if the sound quality is good Oct 29 17:27:28 would be awesome to just hit a button and set your phone down aywhere in the car and have it playing Oct 29 17:28:31 it was mentioned somewhere in a statement by google (i thought) that unlocking the g1 was supposed to be easier than with other phones (meaning from what I read google asked for the price/wait time to be really low) Oct 29 17:28:59 unlocking is really useless as i see it Oct 29 17:29:02 i want an unlocked bootloader Oct 29 17:29:37 yeah i had thoguht unlocking opened it up for root access and such. not sure why i thought that, though Oct 29 17:29:50 it's the same old game they've always played Oct 29 17:30:08 yeah, always 2 types of unlocking, and sim unlockers play on that Oct 29 17:30:08 the platform might be as open as the blue sky Oct 29 17:30:10 but not the device Oct 29 17:30:10 jailbreak vs unlock.. Oct 29 17:30:24 "we can unlock it for $xx" and everyone pays thinking its the other type of unlock Oct 29 17:30:48 we could start a campaign of tech support calls for people trying to flash android to their g1.. Oct 29 17:30:57 lol Oct 29 17:31:00 people think somehow magically it'll work on other 3G frequencies Oct 29 17:31:06 Uh... I rather think the marked for SIM unlock is a bit larger than "developer unlock". The SIM unlockers aren't being shady, we're the ones with the confusing terminology,. Oct 29 17:31:11 cuz really, bitching online doesn't affect tmob in the slightest. but tons of people saying "wow i wish i could do this" (devs and non-devs alike) and calling them about it is different. Oct 29 17:31:42 andyross: agreed, thats why the iphone hackers went with "unlock" and "jailbreak" instead Oct 29 17:31:52 you are right andyross but not many of them have statements on their sites saying "this is what you get, nothing else, if you need other features read here" or anything of the sort Oct 29 17:32:00 someone needs to retheme it and release the flash image .. get people wanting it :) Oct 29 17:32:24 and as much as i hated the "jailbreak" term, i liked how they differentiated the 2 Oct 29 17:32:53 DarkriftX: it comes from the old days.. chroot jails, vm jails, etc... Oct 29 17:33:38 so, I discovered that there is a "Brick" permission. Oct 29 17:33:44 this is, uh, interesting. Oct 29 17:34:06 vol: yeah i saw that too :) Oct 29 17:34:09 my app needs permission to brick your phone, do you grant it? Oct 29 17:34:16 you know, regarding the permission system Oct 29 17:34:22 after several days of using the G1 with the market and such Oct 29 17:34:30 i find that the permission system is very hard to use properly Oct 29 17:34:38 lots of apps request permissions that are frightening Oct 29 17:34:49 Any one have an idea on how to get a MediaPlayer from the NotificationManager then? Oct 29 17:34:52 I haven't had that issue so far Oct 29 17:34:53 and yet, you should "trust" them, even some of the featured apps are using things that make you go "what the hell?" Oct 29 17:34:59 I can't find the code which plays the sound Oct 29 17:35:02 seems like most of them are reasonable Oct 29 17:35:06 http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/29/asus-said-to-be-launching-android-handset-in-first-half-of-09/ Oct 29 17:35:07 woot? Oct 29 17:35:17 vol: almost every single one has "Access location" Oct 29 17:35:20 http://www.unlock-tmobileg1.com/ <- I like guys making money with the bullshit of locked phones :( Oct 29 17:35:21 jasta: at the end of the day its no different from the s60 method, or windows - most users will jsut go "oh look stuff to click yes on again this is annoying but whatever" Oct 29 17:35:35 Disconnect: i mean even as an informed user i can't use it to make useful decisions Oct 29 17:35:42 yah Oct 29 17:35:46 because app developers go nuts and try to support every stupid feature under the sun Oct 29 17:35:46 Application "Porn Downloader" Requires permission for GPS and Phone, please hit ok. Oct 29 17:35:50 again tho, same as s60.. Oct 29 17:35:51 like i installed this Wikipedia app Oct 29 17:35:53 Quickpedia or something Oct 29 17:35:56 jasta: I dunno, pacman seemed to be ok w/o access location Oct 29 17:35:58 and it requested to access my location Oct 29 17:36:08 i sat looking at it for minutes thinking "what the hell?" Oct 29 17:36:11 jasta: thats retarded... Oct 29 17:36:13 well Oct 29 17:36:15 wtf does it need your location for? Oct 29 17:36:20 jasta there are geotagged wikipedia entries Oct 29 17:36:35 so probably by default it checks for nearby things Oct 29 17:36:35 Dougie187: i eventually just trusted it and installed it, then it had a "Local" feature to show local news or some useless crud like that Oct 29 17:36:48 yah and its "fine (gps)" not network.. Oct 29 17:36:51 it would be better if that was an optional feature. Oct 29 17:36:52 but i guess what im saying is developers need to be more responsible about their feature sets Oct 29 17:36:54 when really all it cares about is state Oct 29 17:37:00 if you develop an app to do X, do only X. Oct 29 17:37:03 yeah Oct 29 17:37:14 like if you want to write a media player, don't add a calculator into it Oct 29 17:37:19 the permission system is impossible to use because developers are doing too much Oct 29 17:37:41 or the system could change to so that apps could request a feature but not get it Oct 29 17:37:53 deny gps use to a notepad app Oct 29 17:37:55 well hopefully there will be some useful apps out there that don't require all of the access. Oct 29 17:37:58 yeah i would love that granularity Oct 29 17:38:23 jasta: are you using a lot of the apps in the app store? Oct 29 17:38:31 that'd be great if there was a way to expand the app storage Oct 29 17:38:31 like if i install a calculator and it says it needs internet access, i should be able to deny it, install anyway, experiment, and then if i later want to turn it back on do so Oct 29 17:38:40 for instance if i go "oh, it has this neat feature to do XYZ online" Oct 29 17:38:47 exactly jasta Oct 29 17:38:56 then you'd all be pissed because you'd have to write your app knowing that features may not work :) Oct 29 17:38:57 thats really an important feature now that i think about it ;) Oct 29 17:38:57 as it is i'm actively jettisoning apps in favor of same-size competitors that have more features Oct 29 17:39:12 jasta: that breaks the security model.. Oct 29 17:39:23 (I disagree with the security model in many places, this being one of them, but..) Oct 29 17:39:30 interestingly Java WebStart has this fine-grained model Oct 29 17:39:31 romainguy_: hardly, the "big" ones: location, internet, phone, etc are never guaranteed to work anyway Oct 29 17:39:37 so if your app can't handle the case of them not working, it's totally broken Oct 29 17:39:38 either you grant all permissions at install time Oct 29 17:39:43 or you grant permissions as you use the app Oct 29 17:39:59 the only time it gets permissions are when its installed. so its all or nothing. and you can't suborn the app into requesting more perms.. Oct 29 17:40:10 romainguy_: i'd like it to b at the time of installation to be able to prune the granted permissions Oct 29 17:40:12 (not that it matters when every app out there can send sms's and make phoen calls and such..) Oct 29 17:40:19 then later, add them again if i want Oct 29 17:40:22 that would be better id think Oct 29 17:40:31 or hell, have a permissions list of all apps Oct 29 17:40:36 yeah that's how some J2ME phones work Oct 29 17:40:43 and i can scroll down and tell the wikipedia app that no, i dont want you using gps anymore Oct 29 17:40:45 my Sony Ericsson let me do this Oct 29 17:40:49 romainguy_: i legitimately have installed a couple of apps from the market that really had me wondering why it needed permission XYZ... Oct 29 17:40:59 but i endedup installing it anyway because i "trust" them for some arbitrary reason Oct 29 17:41:05 romainguy_: implementation wouldn't have to be a mess. each permission has a "disabled" return that can be used in the app interchangably with "not available" (eg no gps hit or no phone service, etc) Oct 29 17:41:06 and i think thats totally against the spirit of thepermission system Oct 29 17:41:14 the same way we trust random apps we install on our desktop computers :) Oct 29 17:41:32 romainguy_, I'm not sure that's a good argument :-P Oct 29 17:41:34 romainguy: my desktop computer allows me to run stuff as root.. Oct 29 17:41:38 romainguy_: true, but those don't generally disclose access as well as android would. Oct 29 17:41:48 Disconnect: I know you want root access Oct 29 17:41:57 Lol who doesn't Oct 29 17:41:59 but those dont say "hey, im going to need install permission, format permission and permission to disable your task manager" Oct 29 17:42:02 romainguy_: right but why design this elaborate permission system and then fall short of making it useful? Oct 29 17:42:09 this is coming right out and telling us, which makes it more scary lol Oct 29 17:42:18 jasta: I believe it is useful Oct 29 17:42:23 According to this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=438342 there is speculation that the screen of the G1 is capable of doing multitouch? Oct 29 17:42:24 it could be more user friendly, on that we agree Oct 29 17:42:27 is that true? Oct 29 17:42:34 (and we didn't wait for you guys to think about all this btw :) Oct 29 17:42:44 DarkriftX: exactly. your computer doesn't say, we are going to monitor your traffic 24 hours a day. or anything like that. Oct 29 17:42:48 romainguy_: well, user friendly wasnt really my complaint. as i said, ive actually encountered cases where i was very confused by why apps were requesting certain things Oct 29 17:42:59 its useful because it tells you not to install stuff that needs to much, but what about all of the legit apps that are asking for it for unknown reasons Oct 29 17:42:59 and there was no explanation from the app developer or any reason why i should let them have that access Oct 29 17:43:02 RyeBrye: fwiw the more recent comments say its not hw capable but someday a device might be, and then they'll expand the api accordingly Oct 29 17:43:07 you confused means it's not user frriendly to me :) Oct 29 17:43:12 and even, i'd really prefer to be bale to tell the wikipedia app i installed that it can never, ever get my location :) Oct 29 17:43:22 disabling root access reduces support costs. Oct 29 17:43:23 i don't care what feature it has for that hehe Oct 29 17:43:29 I think part of the problem is also that some apps simply try to use every single feature they can ^^ Oct 29 17:43:32 jasta: the unfortunate part is that with the current SDK you can't really "see" what permissions your application uses, and it's easy to have too many permissions by mistake. Oct 29 17:43:43 romainguy_: wasn't that the point of ADC1? Oct 29 17:43:43 lol Oct 29 17:43:56 jbq: in the cases i saw, the permission usage was legitimate, it just wasn't really well explained Oct 29 17:43:58 thrown in as many features as you can, and you will win? Oct 29 17:44:09 jbq: for instance, this wikipedia app did actually have a feature using my location Oct 29 17:44:15 f00f-: thats my point.. if we start calling and writing and generally increasing support costs, chances are we'll eventually get teh ability to reflash. Oct 29 17:44:20 question from a non-dev: can you write an app and make it ask for gps permission without writing soem sort of gps use code into it? Oct 29 17:44:31 a feature i dont care about, certainly, but still as you're installing it (before you see what it can do) you have to just guess randomly Oct 29 17:44:32 jasta: the problem with a permission system is that by definition you can't trust the app to tell you what it needs the permission for. Oct 29 17:44:38 meaning, if it asks for gps is there a possibility its just asking but will never use it? Oct 29 17:44:52 jbq: of course, which is why as i said earlier, the feature from android should be to let me conditionally grant permissions at install Oct 29 17:44:53 yes Oct 29 17:44:59 I had an app ask for permission to sleep with my wife. I thought that was odd. Oct 29 17:45:00 so i could install the app anyway, but say: no, you can't have my location. Oct 29 17:45:07 RyeBrye: did you grant it? Oct 29 17:45:15 then once im using the app if i see that the location feature could be interesting, i can turn it back on again at a later date Oct 29 17:45:18 Sure, it also asked for permission to use my camera ;) Oct 29 17:45:23 ;D Oct 29 17:45:25 RyeBrye: yah i'm hoping that works out for me. some of the wives are meh but a couple..... Oct 29 17:45:27 iswydt Oct 29 17:46:02 jbq: as i said, i've legitimately felt the permission system fail me when i have to stare at this list of requested permissions and just guess at random that this application will not harm my phone Oct 29 17:46:07 or do something i odnt want Oct 29 17:46:15 How does the market get updated with the permissions that the app uses? Is that something the dev specifies? or does someone monitor that information? Oct 29 17:46:31 Dougie187: it's in the Manifest Oct 29 17:46:31 jbq: but if i could deny things that dont make sense to me, then i would feel much safer Oct 29 17:46:34 its not the market, its the installer Oct 29 17:46:39 oh ok Oct 29 17:46:40 jasta: the good news is that there are plenty of ways this can be extended in the future. Oct 29 17:46:46 jasta: sounds like you want UAC. Oct 29 17:46:51 hope you enjoy vista. Oct 29 17:46:53 jbq: right, and that's what i'm talking about :) Oct 29 17:46:56 Dougie187: so an XML file that's included in the .apk communicates what permissions the app wants Oct 29 17:47:02 jasta: One way to look at it is, most of the permissions aren't really about harming your phone. They're more about violating your privacy, or doing things that cost $$ behind your back. Oct 29 17:47:06 gdsx: got it. Oct 29 17:47:19 (but it has to be done in a way that doesn't break the assumptions 1.0 developers have made in their apps) Oct 29 17:47:23 just BRICK it and be done with it Oct 29 17:47:24 stadlero: well yeah i didnt really mean harm my phone, i meant harm me :) Oct 29 17:47:56 jbq: which i think could be done pretty easily for most cases. for instance, deny internet permission and it just fails to connect like it always has. deny gps, it says "i cant get your location"... Oct 29 17:48:27 jasta: the app still have to be ready to handle the exceptions that would be generated. Oct 29 17:48:37 jbq: I don't think you can do conditional permissions without breaking 1.0 apps. I think the best you can do is have a warning "this app was created with the 1.0 SDK, and may not support conditional permissions" Oct 29 17:49:00 gdsx: except if you let apps specify which permissions they're conditionally dependent on. Oct 29 17:49:04 jbq: but wouldn't that be something the you would need anyways to be a good dev. For instance, if your app needed internet access but you didn't have access and tried to use the app. It should handle that anyways. Oct 29 17:49:13 jbq: yeah, that's my point Oct 29 17:49:47 gdsx: if you say no to a perm, a 1.0 app will just get null data ("no data access" "no cell signal" "no gps hit" etc...) Oct 29 17:49:49 jbq: basically, it shouldn't be too hard to implement, but apps out there already will break if they run without permissions they requested Oct 29 17:49:49 Dougie187: it might not be implemented to handle it in a fine-grained way. Oct 29 17:50:00 Disconnect: no, it'll get an exception and die Oct 29 17:50:04 Disconnect: if it doesn't handle it Oct 29 17:50:07 not if its implemented correctly Oct 29 17:50:09 jbq: i guess im just saying, all of the exceptions that should get thrown should be things that could happen naturally anyways. Oct 29 17:50:31 Disconnect: the problem is that this change would redefine what "correctly" means Oct 29 17:50:32 1.1 allows a nofication. 1.0 allows no-data Oct 29 17:50:40 jbq: so a good dev should handle all of those anyways, or else that would be a bug they need to fix. Oct 29 17:50:57 the v1.0 apps are not required to handle permission denied exceptions.. Oct 29 17:51:11 since the apps have explicity requested them in the first place Oct 29 17:51:29 did you read anything above the last 4 lines? Oct 29 17:52:17 The problem is that if you have a permissions denied telling the application that the person doesn't have a certain feature or their internet is down... then the application might lie to the user and piss the user off Oct 29 17:52:32 Dougie187: check the list of exceptions that a so-called "good dev" wold have to handle everywhere in a fine-grained way (and that's only the system ones, there might be more...): http://code.google.com/android/reference/java/lang/RuntimeException.html Oct 29 17:52:41 so its ok for a 1.0 app to crash when it tries to read gps data and gets no hit? Oct 29 17:52:59 It's not gonna get a RuntimeException in that case. Oct 29 17:53:01 jbq: i don't think thats too many... Oct 29 17:53:11 i.e. "I'm sorry you can't do this because your internet connection appears to be down." - User might not know that they clicked "deny" - and they get pissed "Hell no! My internet is up!!!!" - but if they gave them an accurate message "I'm sorry, you haven't authorized me to do this... Please give me permision to complete this task" Oct 29 17:53:15 they could just have 2 versions of apps, 1.0 and x.0, 1.0 apps would work as they do but give a warning, x.0 apps would be conditional and we as the public would frown apon new apps using 1.0 permissions and not use them Oct 29 17:53:50 jbq: would you design an app that didn't handle all of the exceptions that you could get? Oct 29 17:54:14 Dougie187: at some point, you have to decide between adding tons of error-handling and adding features Oct 29 17:54:24 Dougie187: why would you handle permission denied, when you know that you got the permission? Oct 29 17:54:31 I most definitely do not try to catch all RuntimeExceptions in a fine-grained way. Oct 29 17:54:31 that's plain stupid Oct 29 17:54:38 muthu_: read the rest of the conversation before you comment. Oct 29 17:54:40 jbq: so don't give it a runtime exception in this case. 1.1 apps can say "i want to know about temporarily-denied perms so i can beg for permission" .. 1.0 apps say "hey, look, i can't get a gps fix." Oct 29 17:54:55 gdsx: sure, but features are what is going to start the app, and error-handling should be on-going. Oct 29 17:55:08 gdsx: noone is going to use an app that is all features. Oct 29 17:55:09 Disconnect: that'd break source compatibility. Oct 29 17:55:12 gdsx: then it would never work. Oct 29 17:55:35 jbq: so far every single release of the sdk has broken apps.. how is this different? Oct 29 17:56:08 (and again, you don't have to deal with the perm issue in 1.1, you just have the OPTION of saying "hey, dude, i can't give you the weather icon in this calculator if you won't tell me where you are") Oct 29 17:56:09 Disconnect: so far there's only been a single release of a post-1.0 SDK. Oct 29 17:56:25 Dougie187: that's not what I'm saying Oct 29 17:56:58 gdsx: i understand, im just saying that as a comment. A good dev would have the features they needed for their app to function, and then the error-handling they needed to keep the app working for the user. Oct 29 17:57:46 Dougie187: my point is simply that, if there are many error conditions, and you have to handle them in a fine-grained manner, it can become too large of a burden to deal with efficiently Oct 29 17:58:29 its pretty easy to look at the permissions list and figure out which ones are generally/always required and which ones are potentially optional. send/receive sms.. optional. gps .. optional. make/receive calls.. optional. change system settings.. required. Oct 29 17:58:32 gdsx: sure. But im just saying that personally i can't imagine an exception that would be thrown from the lack of a certain permission that you wouldn't have to deal with already. Oct 29 17:59:42 Dougie187: he's insisting that it has to be a new exception. without that assumption his argument has no basis.. Oct 29 17:59:54 gdsx: they should all be things that you would want to handle already for instance, if the signal was terrible in the area you are in and you are trying to get a GPS fix as Disconnect was mentioning. You should already be handling the case where you can't get a GPS fix gracefully, so then just tell the app there is no gps. Oct 29 18:00:17 Dougie187: there is a SecurityException which (I believe) is thrown when you try to do something you're not allowed to Oct 29 18:01:03 Dougie187: you wouldn't normally handle that when you're trying to grab GPS data, for instance, because in the current model, you have that permission just by virtue of the app running at all Oct 29 18:01:10 If you don't differentiate the exceptions, you don't have any way for the app to display a meaningful message. Oct 29 18:01:55 * gdsx nods at jbq Oct 29 18:02:02 gdsx: well if you knew that the users could pick and choose which premissions to give the app then you better handle it when ever you are doing something. and thats not even a huge issue, because there are other exceptions that you would need to handle in that same place. Oct 29 18:02:42 jbq: its all where the exception occurs for the meaningful message. for instance your not just going to write a generic error routine, you would catch the exception when you are trying to do something you can't and then give a meaningful message. Oct 29 18:03:18 and there are always going to be errors that you have to catch there anyways, so it shouldn't be a big issue for other devs to implement these. Oct 29 18:03:36 Dougie187: it's not an issue at all for devs to implement them _in the future_ Oct 29 18:03:44 Well, I beg to disagree, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Oct 29 18:03:56 Dougie187: I'm saying it's likely that programs _out now_ haven't impelented them Oct 29 18:04:24 gdsx: sure. but we are talking about this being a feature in the future. because its not like you can selectively deny permissions right now either. Oct 29 18:06:07 Dougie187: yeah. The issue is that, as a platform, we can't break 1.0 apps. I already proposed one option to support them even after changing the permissions scheme, though, and I'm sure there are others. So I think we're pretty much in agreement Oct 29 18:06:08 gdsx: im just saying noone should be against this issue, because these should be things that would be fairly easy to implement anyways, and it is more user friendly as was discussed earlier. Oct 29 18:06:14 i'm just saying that its not difficult for a current program to be -given- selective permissions on may requests, by simply returning null data. and that future programs would be allowed to either do that or to say "notify me" Oct 29 18:07:16 (it would probably be better as a different exception anyway, permissions rather than security.. its not breaking out an rampaging around, its simply the user saying "umm.... no. you can't do that.") Oct 29 18:07:48 gdsx: but eventually for a platform to grow they have to break apps. i mean it might not be a good idea to break the apps a week after the platform is released, but eventually it is probably better to have the new feature then keep older apps around. Oct 29 18:08:14 Isn't that the Vista model though? "This application is trying to register an Intent, allow or deny?" Hardly a great user experience. Oct 29 18:08:33 I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment and rebut an earlier statement: "noone should be against this issue, because these should be things that would be fairly easy to implement anyways, and it is more user friendly as was discussed earlier." Oct 29 18:08:41 andyross: i think we are just saying would you rather have that, or have "you are installing this app, and it needs all of this stuff" Oct 29 18:09:06 I think the implementation is reasonably straightforward. But you have to honestly weigh the complexities it introduces to the user experience. Oct 29 18:09:13 andyross: manage it the same way it is now, with an 'edit' button during installation. and a security manager (either part of the app manager and/or as a separate "this is what you said yes/no, systemwide") Oct 29 18:09:26 The latter can be ignored by non-technical users instead of scaring them with stuff they aren't prepared for, so yeah, I guess I'd rather have that. The idea of user-based authorization of low-level technical details is kinda flawed. Oct 29 18:10:37 andyross: well as was discussed earlier, you wouldn't be choosing if the app had permissions when it needed them, you would decide when you installed. then if you realized that it canceled a feature you would really like, then you reinstall the app with that permission allowed. Oct 29 18:11:04 andyross: security and users will never mix in a good way. the best you can hope for is a default that won't kill -all- the users and will allow the better ones to do what they need/want. Oct 29 18:11:07 Anyone taken their G1 apart yet? I'm surprised I haven't seen any tear-down images yet Oct 29 18:11:21 RyeBrye: most people love theirs too much. Oct 29 18:11:32 Many, many features are easy to implement. But for a consumer product, the bars for (a) useful and (b) understandable need to be set far differently than consensus of a room full of people like us. Oct 29 18:11:54 The same could be said about the iPhone - but those have been gutted open with their internals posted all over Oct 29 18:12:13 my G1 will probably be here within the hour Oct 29 18:12:17 RyeBrye: probably by some apple haters. Oct 29 18:12:22 RyeBrye: people get free iPhones all the time Oct 29 18:12:23 lol Oct 29 18:12:32 i wished there wus more good aps Oct 29 18:12:34 hi Oct 29 18:12:36 apps* Oct 29 18:12:46 im just kidding by the way. i don't know why noone has torn their phone apart. Oct 29 18:12:47 Is there a factory service manual floating around? I wont mind ripping mine open - but I would prefer to know how to do so the proper way first :) Oct 29 18:12:51 the iphone didn't get apps for what, a year? Oct 29 18:13:05 official apps, or jailbroken apps? Oct 29 18:13:07 RyeBrye: not yet but afair tmob usually leaks them pretty quick Oct 29 18:13:28 given there was over 1000 submitted for the google's challenge, i was hoping there would be more apps that was final on launch day Oct 29 18:13:52 wastrel: but everyone forgot that now, and its all about how they've had apps just FOREVER, and look at how many 10s of thousands of useless apps they can install... Oct 29 18:14:00 androoid: i think most of those stopped development after they lost. Oct 29 18:14:11 Or they're waiting until they can sell the apps. Oct 29 18:14:13 i submitted a app that i worked on for 5 days and seemed like it was better than some of the apps that is available on the market :( Oct 29 18:14:50 androoid: did you see the apps that won the challenge? most of them were useless. Oct 29 18:15:05 Dougie187: no i did not Oct 29 18:15:06 useless *to you* :) Oct 29 18:15:26 shazaam is probably the coolest app ever made! Oct 29 18:15:28 Why didn't the tip calculators win? Oct 29 18:15:40 romainguy: locale is great. if you only ever want to turn your volume up and down. Oct 29 18:15:52 romainguy_: sure, but even if you are talking about the general public, they had quite a few repeat apps win. which are useless. noone needs 4 different media players. Oct 29 18:16:01 ohh is that what locale does Oct 29 18:16:14 Dougie187: yeah but you can choose the one you prefer Oct 29 18:16:18 take the wikipedia apps Oct 29 18:16:21 there are 3 or 4 of them Oct 29 18:16:25 Locale could do so much more... like SMS everyone in the neighborhood when a sex offender drives by ;) Oct 29 18:16:37 the one I prefer to use it apparently not the one (according to the comments) other people prefer Oct 29 18:16:41 (if the sex offender had a G1 and enabled it, of course) Oct 29 18:16:43 I'm certainly happy I was given the choice Oct 29 18:16:46 romainguy_: i agree, quickipedia is so much better than the other ones Oct 29 18:16:48 romainguy_: sure, but the challenge would have been better to give 50 good unique apps. rather then 25 unique apps and 25 repeats. Oct 29 18:16:49 That's an awesome idea, especially for the guy on the sex offender list for public urination. Oct 29 18:16:56 I wonder if I should make a sex offender pinpoint app with google maps overlays :) Oct 29 18:16:59 androoid: that's not the one I use :) Oct 29 18:17:07 it's already done, and those maps are generally useless Oct 29 18:17:18 RyeBrye: locale would be awesome if - for example - you could change mail account notifications. or notify volume. etc. its really only got 2-3 things it can control, its kinda sad.. Oct 29 18:17:31 Dougie187: you know very well that repeats are bound to happen Oct 29 18:17:33 * Disconnect is prolly talking to the locale author without knowing it, but whatever.. :) Oct 29 18:17:35 Are the ADC apps OSS? Oct 29 18:17:35 Disconnect: locale is still under development Oct 29 18:17:43 Disconnect: androidlocale.com Oct 29 18:17:45 RyeBrye: doesn't isafe have sex offenders on there? haha Oct 29 18:17:51 Disconnect: I mean, I know 4 of the 5 folks on the team Oct 29 18:17:56 RyeBrye: no, pretty sure they're not Oct 29 18:18:01 romainguy_: sure, but i just wouldn't expect a challenge to award a bunch of repeats. Oct 29 18:18:07 why? Oct 29 18:18:09 ADC was just a way to get devs intersted Oct 29 18:18:10 if the apps are good... Oct 29 18:18:12 gdsx: so is everything.. but its been (in programmer time) a -long- time since adc ended. Oct 29 18:18:16 There should be an application that shows you your likeliness of being mugged based on your location and a camera image of what you are wearing Oct 29 18:18:18 and RyeBrye: the Sex predators tool kit is PhoneBook 2.0. Oct 29 18:18:25 romainguy_: but they aren't.... Oct 29 18:18:26 There's that too, RyeBrye Oct 29 18:18:28 iSafe keeps telling me I'm gonna die Oct 29 18:18:32 lol Oct 29 18:18:33 shows how dangerous your area is Oct 29 18:18:38 LOL Oct 29 18:18:39 Dougie187: according to you... apparently the judges felt they were good Oct 29 18:18:40 :) Oct 29 18:18:43 here are the apps for anyone interested. Oct 29 18:18:43 http://code.google.com/android/adc_gallery/ Oct 29 18:18:48 romainguy_: what, you're immortal? Oct 29 18:18:51 i am still too scared to turn on JOYity Oct 29 18:18:58 jbq: I live the last street before the Tenderloin Oct 29 18:19:00 i'm scared of some rapist coming up to me randomly Oct 29 18:19:11 jbq: so the app is freaking out :) Oct 29 18:19:12 haha Oct 29 18:19:14 romainguy_ - is it shareware and you haven't registered it yet? ;) Oct 29 18:19:25 joyity seems to require that you already have friends or something Oct 29 18:19:27 "You will die. Please register and I can ensure your safety" Oct 29 18:20:05 Disconnect: so it has. Don't forget that these folks have actual lives. Also, people don't necessarily do a release every week Oct 29 18:20:39 ..$275k can't buy any new features in 2 months? I think google got jacked. Oct 29 18:20:50 Disconnect: true. lol Oct 29 18:20:55 thx for htat link Dougie187, i am going to check all of those out Oct 29 18:21:25 androoid: np. read some of the descriptions first though.. some are rather humorous. Oct 29 18:22:10 androoid: my personal favorite is for phonebook 2.0 in the 100k group Oct 29 18:22:22 there is a guy in here who wrote a really good app that might have won in the adc if he had submitted it in time (or written it in time) Oct 29 18:22:38 and he makes it sound like he might not release it (hope he does) Oct 29 18:22:49 DarkriftX: what app was it? Oct 29 18:22:53 pinpoint Oct 29 18:23:07 url? Oct 29 18:23:10 you text your app a pin# and it texts you its gps location back (for finding lost or stolen phones) Oct 29 18:23:14 no idea Oct 29 18:23:38 he was writing it and showed screenshots of it Oct 29 18:23:38 thats cool. Oct 29 18:23:46 sounds like one of the must haves for a lot of ppl Oct 29 18:23:50 I've done that for windows mobile Oct 29 18:24:04 more games!!!!! Oct 29 18:24:17 i was expecting a emulator for SNES to be out by now Oct 29 18:24:26 that will take a while androoid Oct 29 18:24:36 those are always finicky on new hardware Oct 29 18:24:42 let alone new OS Oct 29 18:26:39 I've been peeking at how hard it would be to port one of the java emulators over, but haven't done much because my day job keeps me pretty busy Oct 29 18:28:10 androoid: games are on the way, you don't expect the big companies to release great games for free do you? Oct 29 18:28:16 is there a tag/attributes overview for main.xml? Oct 29 18:28:43 on the inet Oct 29 18:30:37 There are attributes in eclipse Oct 29 18:31:16 if you want to have fun you can also look for the file common/res/values/attrs.xml in the source code Oct 29 18:31:21 that's where we define all the attributes :) Oct 29 18:36:04 well, i search the tag for button-pressed-color and button-not-pressed-color ^^ Oct 29 18:36:44 Android Gear Anybody? Any Requests? :) http://www.cafepress.com/djtachyon .. http://www.zazzle.com/djtachyon Oct 29 18:37:02 you got the authoriztaion then? :) Oct 29 18:37:23 me? Oct 29 18:37:55 what authorization? ... its got a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License :P Oct 29 18:38:18 and I state that in the stores :P Oct 29 18:38:35 I thought there were restriction on the use of the Android logo Oct 29 18:38:42 (not the green droid, the android text logo) Oct 29 18:39:06 well they were all on the same page with the license Oct 29 18:39:16 i am obviously buying the panties. Oct 29 18:39:25 hehehe Oct 29 18:39:28 (for jasta) Oct 29 18:39:37 http://www.android.com/branding.html Oct 29 18:39:54 i actually took the wallpapers and rerendered them .. i dont have that font Oct 29 18:40:03 here you go Oct 29 18:40:04 "The Android logo may not be used." Oct 29 18:40:05 http://code.google.com/android/goodies/index.html Oct 29 18:40:15 so where i can see the possibe attributs e.g. for the Button-tag in main.xml? Oct 29 18:40:21 so basically you can use the green droid but not the text logo Oct 29 18:40:32 oinkboink: there's a doc somewhere with all the attributes Oct 29 18:40:39 hmm conflict there then .. Oct 29 18:40:50 because the wallpapers say they are free to remix Oct 29 18:41:07 Android logo and the custom font may not be used Oct 29 18:41:38 Where would be a good place to read on how to get started on making apps for android? Oct 29 18:41:56 for those of you lucky enough to have an actual G1... what's the deal with the USB port? Is it a "host", a "client", or OTG? Oct 29 18:41:57 greencookie: http://code.google.com/android/ Oct 29 18:42:13 thnx jt436 Oct 29 18:42:20 it's a client I think Oct 29 18:42:24 I haven't tried using it to host anything Oct 29 18:42:28 tmarble: no host Oct 29 18:42:42 it'd be awesome if it could though : ) Oct 29 18:43:05 ah, ok, thx... i couldn't find a definitive answer from http://www.htc.com/www/product/g1/specification.html Oct 29 18:43:05 I still want to use my ps3 controller to play quake Oct 29 18:43:27 quake *bah* ;P Oct 29 18:43:29 DJTachyon: that page says "except as noted" and the page (http://code.google.com/policies.html#restrictions) talks about trademarks and such. so the android images are under the branding license... Oct 29 18:54:15 quake with a controller *bah* ;P Oct 29 18:57:00 Hey all, I'm trying to get a feel for ease of development on Android vs Windows mobile. Any good resources you can point me to? Oct 29 18:57:44 code.google.com/android/ Oct 29 18:57:53 android is by far the most delightful dev experience I've had Oct 29 18:58:08 there's a plugin for eclipse made by google explicitly for development Oct 29 18:58:12 shit just works Oct 29 18:58:17 there's no fucking around with dev keys or signing Oct 29 18:58:21 (as long as you use eclipse) Oct 29 18:58:26 vol: lets see what happens once multiple devices hit the market Oct 29 18:58:31 vol: so you've developed of WinMob before? Oct 29 18:58:33 and your app starts to break Oct 29 18:58:58 Krang: I work at a company that does mobile dev. I haven't done other platforms yet (except j2me ugh), but I've heard cries of torment and horror from other devs Oct 29 18:59:06 usually "well at least it's not symbian..." Oct 29 18:59:13 ouch :-) Oct 29 18:59:38 anyway Oct 29 18:59:47 I found it extremely easy compared to developing for the blackberry Oct 29 18:59:51 debugging flat out works Oct 29 18:59:57 there are no mysterious segfaults Oct 29 19:00:11 I have yet to have my phone freeze up, let alone the emulator Oct 29 19:00:14 ok, well blackberry isn't much fun Oct 29 19:00:28 no, it's really not : ( Oct 29 19:00:32 * jt436 had to give a talk last week at the BlackBerry dev conf saying how great it is Oct 29 19:00:37 haha Oct 29 19:01:03 so, from personal experience, I can tell you that it's easier than developing for a blackberry Oct 29 19:01:22 So the platform (so far) seems to be more stable than the average? I have very little experience of any and am trying to get a good feel. I've never seen a WinMob device crash, but neither have I seen one with anything more than a default configuration Oct 29 19:01:34 vol: Cheers Oct 29 19:01:36 yeah, the platform seems to be very stable Oct 29 19:02:08 And as a developer, it's easy to use. Has anyone here done WinMob development before? Oct 29 19:02:11 the application lifecycle will be different than what you're used to Oct 29 19:02:16 but you'll figure it out :) Oct 29 19:02:26 Who the hell is 2fcdit123@gmail.com and why is my new G1 trying to get into his gmail account? Oct 29 19:02:34 haha Oct 29 19:02:37 "your" new g1 Oct 29 19:02:37 ha, someone returned it Oct 29 19:02:46 steal his stuff! Oct 29 19:02:51 I don't know his password :( Oct 29 19:02:57 learn it! Oct 29 19:03:03 It looks new, and I got it straight from t-mobile Oct 29 19:03:07 looks like he just typed gibberish Oct 29 19:03:12 I'll see if I can recover it though :) Oct 29 19:03:13 well someone has used it Oct 29 19:03:23 Yeah, lame Oct 29 19:03:37 Does everyone else's G1 have that "new shoe smell"? Oct 29 19:03:46 The foam from the box makes it smell like a pair of nikes Oct 29 19:04:01 RyeBrye: .... no Oct 29 19:04:22 * RyeBrye begins to wonder what T-mobile sent him :) Oct 29 19:04:40 vol: I'm actually trying to decide what would be best to deploy company-wide if we want to develop our own apps internally Oct 29 19:04:54 fwiw on platform stability.. it doesn't "crash" as such. and apps seem reasonably good as well. but it gets 'unstable' on a regular basis (30-60 second hangs getting to the home page, etc) Oct 29 19:05:02 Krang: you're figuring out if you want to buy everyone G1s? Oct 29 19:05:06 SanMehat is working on that tho Oct 29 19:05:36 Disconnect: I haven't had that happen to me Oct 29 19:05:46 vol: No, more deciding what OS to recommend for including on a phone being developed for a new 4G network Oct 29 19:05:53 I'll email him and ask him if he had a G1 Oct 29 19:05:53 :) Oct 29 19:06:28 o_O Oct 29 19:06:34 Disconnect: it could be one of the apps you have installed running in the background Oct 29 19:06:42 hey is there any reason why I couldn't send someone an .apk file out of /apps? licensing-wise? Oct 29 19:06:45 Good lord, what are you asking us for then? Oct 29 19:06:47 * jt436 doesn't imagine a lot of apps in the market behave correctly Oct 29 19:07:03 you have engineers, don't you? Oct 29 19:07:06 waldo_: some apks are locked to the device I think Oct 29 19:07:11 forward locked Oct 29 19:07:31 but there's no licensing problem Oct 29 19:07:50 waldo_: most licenses don't allow redistribution. just like "what can i release my code under" its a question thats specific to the app. Oct 29 19:08:16 hmm.. I'm trying to figure out what this app is: Vending.apk Oct 29 19:08:29 is that the market? Oct 29 19:08:51 oh yes it is! Oct 29 19:08:55 waldo_: it is Oct 29 19:09:08 waldo_: I tried to pull it and run on the emulator but it won't work Oct 29 19:09:46 send me the vending.apk.. need that ;) Oct 29 19:09:52 vol: nope, I was asked for my opinion and want to get a good picture. We outsource our stuff :-) Oct 29 19:09:56 muthu_: doesn't work on emu Oct 29 19:10:01 ahhh okay Oct 29 19:10:05 oh Oct 29 19:10:08 is there a dalvik decompiler yet? Oct 29 19:10:13 ... no reason :/ Oct 29 19:10:17 hehe Oct 29 19:10:26 vol: Besides, hiring one engineer and asking him isn't nearly as good as asking a bunch of people Oct 29 19:10:47 Krang: depends who you trust more Oct 29 19:10:48 Except for the fact that a bunch of people don't usually care too much Oct 29 19:10:56 is the market not open-sourced itself? Oct 29 19:11:07 Krang: we're slightly biased ;) Oct 29 19:11:11 and it depends "which" bunch of people, look what channel you are in Oct 29 19:11:13 Ryebrye: They express their opinions pretty freely Oct 29 19:11:30 jt436: It's not the only channel I'm in, you know :-) Oct 29 19:11:32 what was your original question? Oct 29 19:12:02 Krang: but answers may be biased Oct 29 19:12:10 and people may lie Oct 29 19:12:12 How does Android shape up vs windows mobile for application development, and how stable is it as a platform? Oct 29 19:12:17 Windows mobile sucks Oct 29 19:12:19 there is your answer Oct 29 19:12:25 :) Oct 29 19:12:30 yea WinMo is hell Oct 29 19:12:30 jt436: yeah, bias is kinda expected :-) Oct 29 19:12:31 RyeBrye: regarding your "new shoe smell," question, that's actually what happens when plastics de-gas Oct 29 19:12:43 gdsx - so my phone is passing gas? Oct 29 19:12:44 ;) Oct 29 19:12:46 Krang: One thing to keep in mind right now is that Android doesn't have a JIT compiler for apps, so it's "lawl java is slow" slow Oct 29 19:13:05 RyeBrye: I think that's for you to decide. Your phone is made of plastic, though Oct 29 19:13:06 Will android ever have a JIT? Oct 29 19:13:10 as opposed to more recent J2/5SE java apps where Java is nearly/actually on par with native code Oct 29 19:13:16 RyeBrye: ask andyross Oct 29 19:13:21 * gdsx hides Oct 29 19:13:33 andyross - will Android ever have a JIT? Oct 29 19:13:42 Though, that said, you can still use JNI to load C libs Oct 29 19:13:50 which is the approach my company is taking Oct 29 19:13:53 Yeah, but how do you get those C-bits on there? Oct 29 19:13:58 oh, you just bundle them in the apk? Oct 29 19:14:10 yeah, you can stuff them in the apk for one thing Oct 29 19:14:17 or just leave them flopping out on an sd card Oct 29 19:14:29 Ask me? I was flaming about that last week, but I'm happy with JNI right now. FWIW: I firmly believe that a low-hanging-fruit JIT would be an important feature. Just mapping the 1:1 instructions and leaving the rest (field access, java function call, etc...) as-is would still be a big improvement. Oct 29 19:14:47 vol: that's interesting, so you package them in apk and save them to the /data/data/ area? Oct 29 19:14:54 Is there documentation about stuffing c-libs into the apk? I had no idea you could do this Oct 29 19:15:27 I've not done a lot of JNI - but what kind of security model is there? i.e. could you conceivably go trouncing around the phones memory in C-code and spit the results out to JNI? Oct 29 19:15:28 vol: Are there any calls you can make to determine what architecture you are running on, so you can load the correct libs? Oct 29 19:15:44 Goosey: basically, it will likely work, but it is currently not supported. Changes we make in the future could definitely break apps that are built/packaged like that right now Oct 29 19:15:58 yeah, basically. Write out a file and then call System.load(). The tricky bit is getting the prebuilt toolchain operating. I put this up yesterday: http://plausible.org/andy/NativeAPK-debug.apk -- it does some syscall and libc stuff and logcats it. Oct 29 19:15:58 RyeBrye: Android doesn't rely on the VM for security. Oct 29 19:16:08 andyross: less so on ARM than on something with deep pipes and fancy branch prediction. Oct 29 19:16:14 Goosey: basically, since we're not advertising the JNI as a public API right now, we can break it if we see fit Oct 29 19:16:26 that makes sense Oct 29 19:16:29 See also JamVM 1.5.x's implementation of what you described. Oct 29 19:16:32 Goosey: so if you want something that's guaranteed to not break, you should wait Oct 29 19:16:50 In particular, he didn't enable it for ARM. Oct 29 19:16:59 (IIRC) Oct 29 19:17:45 fadden: We went down this road before, but the brief summary: if you have an interpreter and want to execute an dex instruction, you must (1) fetch the opcode into a register, (2) find the jump target via (at least) an array indirection, (3) branch there (4) execute the instruction (5) branch back. So that's five instructions at least to do the work of just one. For CPU-bound applications, that's huge. Oct 29 19:18:08 zhobbs: Actually, i'm not quite sure. I start doing real work on android tomorrow. some other guys here have been working the C side of things for a couple weeks, and finally got the toolchain they need from HTC Oct 29 19:18:16 andyross: no; if you speak arm, see the stuff in dalvik/vm/mterp/armv5 Oct 29 19:18:35 andyross: each instruction handler is 64 bytes exactly, so we just multiply the instruction number Oct 29 19:18:41 Lenolium: /me shrugs. I'll find out tomorrow Oct 29 19:18:46 * jasta looks into WifiLocks for Five... Oct 29 19:18:50 we use "threaded" execution, so the tail end of each handler does the fetch+branch Oct 29 19:18:51 yeah, dalvik vm is optimized a bit more than a plain jump table. Oct 29 19:19:07 There's no jump table, no double-branch. Oct 29 19:19:54 yay barrel shifters Oct 29 19:20:11 Meh. I'll get benchmarks for you guys at some point. Not an issue for me currently. Oct 29 19:20:26 The "portable" C implementation also uses threaded execution to avoid the double-branch, but there's no getting around the jump table there. Oct 29 19:20:38 andyross: don't forget to include the disk and RAM usage in your benchmarks. Oct 29 19:21:09 Disk? :) Look, I understand that there are things other than CPU cycles that affect performance. But that doesn't mean that CPU bound applications don't exist, either. Oct 29 19:21:25 andyross: what you described as your basic JIT is JamVM's "inline-threaded interpreter"; see http://jamvm.sourceforge.net/ Oct 29 19:22:25 what's this active-installs thing from market stats? Oct 29 19:22:43 andyross: No, I mean, various VM and JIT strategies require to store more or less data in RAM or on disk, and those can't be ignored in a super-contrained environment like a phone. Oct 29 19:23:39 anyone know how many apps in market as of now? Oct 29 19:23:48 See the "NEWS" file, which lists performance improvements due to the inline-threading and stack-caching. 300% on P4, 200% on AMD 64. 70% on Core 2 Duo, 30% on PPC. It's *very* architecture sensitive. Oct 29 19:23:56 * Disconnect thinks its nuts that this phone is super-constrained, at least as far as disk :( Oct 29 19:24:05 The small cache on ARM makes it not as useful, though getting stuff into the I-cache vs. the D-cache can help. Oct 29 19:24:50 Bottom line: "cheap JIT" is very likely not a win on ARM. You really need to go all-in. Oct 29 19:24:52 Disconnect: those are high-volume devices in a price-sensitive market. Oct 29 19:25:22 anyone know of a good sip stack to use Oct 29 19:26:30 jbq: nokia and dell managed to sell e90's for $900 in the usa, and without even the -possibility- of 3g or any sort of carrier support. Oct 29 19:27:17 but it comes down to the "our users are too dumb to be allowed to have our devices" security model that doesn't allow expansion onto the sd card (i know, "yet"..but there are barely any apps out and -already- you can fill all storage with a reasonable app load...) Oct 29 19:27:18 I'd rather be (again) on the side that sells millions of units a day, not dozens. Oct 29 19:27:34 fadden: Maybe you can enlighten me, because I'm getting confused. The actual CPU cycles required to do something like load two numbers, add them, and store the result (4 instructions in native code) are what in dalvik? You've got four interpreter instructions in memory and a pointer to them in a register. Now what? "Cheap JIT" will map those to four real instructions and see no penalty. Oct 29 19:28:20 andyross: that's not a *cheap* JIT, wherein you just assemble interpreter fragments. Oct 29 19:28:55 Disconnect: if that's the way you take it, there's no point discussion this with you. Oct 29 19:29:54 jbq: a security policy that defends against rogue -apps- allows users to issue exceptions. this security policy defends against rogue -users-. Oct 29 19:29:57 Disconnect: there are a lot of tricky problems associated with apps running from the sd card Oct 29 19:30:08 Yeah, that's what I thought. What I described wasn't what you heard. But it *is* cheap to implement. Just emit the obvious instructions for the obvious candidates and emit calls to handler functions for the hard java stuff. That won't get you to gcc performance, but it'll be a factor of 3-4 for cpu-bound code, which is nothing to sneeze at. Oct 29 19:30:30 if the apps decide to put their storage in sdcard, that might help Oct 29 19:30:34 Has google sent any rough goals for JIT capability in Android? Oct 29 19:30:34 There's some DRM in there, we have to defend against rogue users. Oct 29 19:30:40 (that's literally the law) Oct 29 19:31:03 jbq: you have to defend the radios. (and its not a law, its a regulation.) Oct 29 19:31:29 That too, but it's not my domain. Oct 29 19:31:35 andyross: I have somewhere a distribution of the most popular Dalvik instructions over some modest sample. The most popular was pulling a value out of a field. Basic math ops were much lower. Oct 29 19:31:37 its a regulation from the organization that says whether your device is legal for use in the US or not Oct 29 19:31:42 so its a law at some point Oct 29 19:31:58 Disconnect: we have to defend our users against social engineering Oct 29 19:31:58 We can come up with arbitrary examples that lean one way or the other, of course. Oct 29 19:32:50 Is that a sample over instructions in files, or of instructions actually executed? CPUs in the real world tend to spend most of their time in CPU-bound code. But even so: the goal here would be an interpreter environment that doesn't make stuff like game development suck. Games are rather more likely to be CPU-bound than GUI display logic. Oct 29 19:32:51 But I don't think there's value in sinking too much dev effort into a partial win. The compute-heavy stuff is best done in JNI anyway (and maybe not with gcc as your compiler). Oct 29 19:32:57 tmccrary: laws and regulations are -very- different things. despite what the fcc and tsa and so forth would like to convince you.. (for one thing, laws are passed by politicians of some sort.) Oct 29 19:33:02 in any case. Oct 29 19:33:13 andyross: in android.os.Debug there's some interpreted instruction count hooks. Oct 29 19:34:02 social engineering is a straw man here, because - as was discussed earlier - most apps request all -SORTS- of weird perms in the current env, and people are going to be trainde to just say yes no matter what. Oct 29 19:34:04 Disconnect: completely off topic, but laws and regulations really aren't that different. Regulations are laws written by the executive branch. Oct 29 19:35:11 Disconnect: yes, that's still a problem. Oct 29 19:37:31 andyross: http://www.libraries.psu.edu/socialsciences/law/lawvreg.htm but yah, its rather OT :) Oct 29 19:38:14 gdsx: pretend i'm just as slow as you think i am :) and explain how preventing me from installing openvpn (jni aside) somehow protects me or my grandmother from social engineering. Oct 29 19:38:43 i'm seriously curious here, because i don't think its the right answer Oct 29 19:39:34 The G1 is pretty sweet... I'm installing about a dozen apps right now :) Oct 29 19:40:15 Disconnect: is this fundamentally a question about not being able to get root? Oct 29 19:40:29 Disconnect: otherwise, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking Oct 29 19:40:51 yah. i accept (provisionally) that tmob wants to restrict flashing. beyond that.... Oct 29 19:40:53 but i'll bbiab Oct 29 19:41:37 RyeBrye: don't forget to install Translate, it's indispensable Oct 29 19:42:47 Disconnect: basically, if an app has root, it can subvert other apps, use their permissions, etc. So the problem is that an app with root can grab all of your data from all of the services that the phone can access, and then send them to places you don't trust Oct 29 19:43:23 Translate? What does it do? Oct 29 19:43:24 -if- you do something to grant root. and bear in mind, with the current method, users are going to grant all those permissions -anyway- if the app asks for it. Oct 29 19:44:06 is the t-mobile hotspot connector still screwed up? Oct 29 19:44:20 i agree that removing the possibility removes the accidental, but what -added- bonus does that give? i can write an app right now that requests a bunch of info and sends it somewhere unsafe. and if i have even a vaguely plausible reason for the perms request, nobody will question it.. they'll just click yes. Oct 29 19:44:43 Disconnect: but you can't trust the vast majority of users to know whether an app needs root or not. Admittedly, the same is true with the current permissions stuff, but that still doesn't open up unrelated applications to attack Oct 29 19:45:04 hell there were devs in here the other day urging me to say yes to the wildcard perms (broken cert?) that itunes remote wanted. developers, who should have known better.. Oct 29 19:46:46 gdsx: except there is a big conflict here - apps with private data should store it in flash, but apps with important or large data should store it on sd... and anything on sd is available to anyone. so i suspect i don't think thats as big a protection as you do. Oct 29 19:47:40 Disconnect: I'm pretty sure that there's nowhere suggesting apps store data that is sensitive in any way on the sd card. Yes, there are space issues that we're looking at ways to alleviate. But sd card is wide open Oct 29 19:48:35 gdsx: so i've got an app that generates 5 megs of data an hour (say, detailed gps tracking with images) .. where do i save all that? its potentially sensitive (location and images) Oct 29 19:48:54 Disconnect: you upload it somewhere with SSL Oct 29 19:49:02 Or encrypt it before saving it. Oct 29 19:49:04 Disconnect: or you encrypt it Oct 29 19:49:07 help! how do I type Escape in ConnectBot! Oct 29 19:49:08 ? Oct 29 19:49:13 gdsx: that'll quickly run into tmobs bandwidth caps. Oct 29 19:49:15 ttuttle: double tap trackball Oct 29 19:49:21 ttuttle: up, up, down, down, square Oct 29 19:49:35 Disconnect: do it over wifi Oct 29 19:49:44 umdk1d3: thanks! Oct 29 19:49:47 and if there is encryption on the device then we're back to where i started - the data is already either as protected or as open as its gonna get, regardless of root or perms. Oct 29 19:49:49 Disconnect: I mean, there are going to be limits to what you can do, no doubt Oct 29 19:50:13 Disconnect: Store the data encrypted on the sdcard, store the encryption key protected in main memory. Oct 29 19:50:17 gdsx: if i've got wifi chances are i've got much more local computing power than a g1 and wouldn't be doing this to begin with. Oct 29 19:50:54 Disconnect: at this point, I've got to get back to work, and I dont' think the discussino is really going anywhere Oct 29 19:51:25 Disconnect: it's easy to come up with situations that won't work with what's there right now. you get to deal with it, or find creative solutions Oct 29 19:51:36 gdsx: i still don't see what i gain there, as a corporate user (or as a developer) vs what i lose.. Oct 29 19:51:45 (or wait for other stuff to roll around) Oct 29 19:52:02 fair enough, but that solution is simple (and istr there's an app out there that does that sort of thing already) - gps track and/or routing with pictures.. Oct 29 19:52:18 panoramio, but anyway... Oct 29 19:52:19 er, that problem i meant Oct 29 19:52:39 is there a built-in encryption method? Oct 29 19:52:41 So, is it much of an issue to let my G1 run the battery all the way out? Oct 29 19:53:13 no, doing so will give you better battery life it seems? Oct 29 19:53:36 Lenolium: it's actually recommended in the beginning. Drain it out, recharge it completely, repeat a few times Oct 29 19:53:41 vol: Yeah, I don't think it will give you better battery life, just better battery status reporting. Oct 29 19:53:48 Lenolium: ...which translates to battery life Oct 29 19:53:52 since it shuts down based on that status Oct 29 19:53:56 Lenolium: clearly yes: your phone will fail when the battery runs out. :) Oct 29 19:53:57 and stops charging based on it too.. Oct 29 19:54:48 this isn't nicad country anymore :) Oct 29 19:55:29 this is flavor country Oct 29 19:56:49 heh Oct 29 19:57:06 * Disconnect does know what flavor the g1 is leaving so far.. :( but at least most of it is software related. Oct 29 19:57:56 Disconnect: Hey, no complaining about the software until I release my Netflix app, then you can really start complaining. Oct 29 19:58:07 * Disconnect doesn't use netflix. Oct 29 19:58:28 but do me a favor - cache full-size movie posters on the app partition, since its app-specific data that shouldn't be exposed on the sd card :) Oct 29 19:59:03 I accidently the entire android market? Oct 29 19:59:10 ... Oct 29 19:59:12 you accidentally what Oct 29 19:59:19 bad joke... Oct 29 19:59:24 Disconnect: there are probably copyright issues with that Oct 29 19:59:45 Actually, Netflix allows you to keep the downloaded data for only 24 hours. Oct 29 19:59:48 Cedric2: depends. but thats why they have to be cached off the sd card, keep them inside the app thats allowed to use them. Oct 29 20:00:06 Disconnect: yes I misunderstood what you said, sorry Oct 29 20:00:20 Lenolium: but if its a netflix app certainly it'll have a queue manager.. and that queue manager can legitimately download a few dozen movie posters to the onboard storage...... :) Oct 29 20:01:06 Does anyone else find it ironic that there is no "search" in the Google app market? Oct 29 20:01:12 There is Oct 29 20:01:13 ERRR Oct 29 20:01:14 NM :) Oct 29 20:01:23 * RyeBrye extracts foot from mouth and clicks "menu button" Oct 29 20:01:58 google is terrible about search ;] Oct 29 20:02:14 they were when i was searching for anycut... :) Oct 29 20:02:31 Isn't there some kndof GPS tools application? Oct 29 20:04:51 So, the other question i have is hardware related: How bad is the compass on your G1? mine is fairly useless. Oct 29 20:05:03 I can't tell yet Oct 29 20:05:09 Is the compass just GPS based? Oct 29 20:05:24 for those to work, in my experience, you have to walk in a straight line for a meter or two and then stop so it has some idea of your orientation Oct 29 20:06:13 no its supposed to be a proper compass Oct 29 20:06:15 no it's a compus Oct 29 20:06:37 and mine is .. not good. part of that may be orientation tho, not sure whether its flat (like a physical compass) or if its vertical Oct 29 20:06:38 Oh Oct 29 20:06:50 Lenolium, Try waving the phone around in a figure-eight for a while. Works well for calibration (for whatever reason). Oct 29 20:07:01 i havent checked mine for accuracy, but it does work where you spin it around in google's street view and the image rotates Oct 29 20:07:02 Umm... UNless they reversed the earth's poles on me in my sleep - mine is saying South is directly north? Oct 29 20:07:12 Disconnect, Should work correctly when held vertically. Oct 29 20:07:23 But like I mentioned, sometimes you have to shake the phone around for it to behave correctly. Oct 29 20:07:48 RyeBrye: and you want 'orienteer' for basic/raw gps/compass info Oct 29 20:07:53 has someone made a simple boy-scout like compass app? Oct 29 20:08:06 Yeah, I did get orienteer on now Oct 29 20:08:39 GPS is tied to the data plan activation? Oct 29 20:08:55 ..no? Oct 29 20:09:00 oh Oct 29 20:09:10 * RyeBrye apologizes if his n00b is stinking up the room Oct 29 20:14:21 T-mobile is so nice to sell 2GB microSD cards right from their website to you... for $40 Oct 29 20:16:09 RyeBrye: it's free money. It's just like Dell selling you memory Oct 29 20:16:59 If I were to pay $40 for a 2gb microSD card, I'd expect it to have such a fast data rate that it would be capable of catching my phone on fire Oct 29 20:17:40 fwiw bestbuy of all places has 8g for $45. its tagged at almost 2x that (and the various compare-bot apps thought it was too) but they ran a check and i was $45. Oct 29 20:17:54 * Disconnect is holding out for 16g tho, once the stupid microusb adapters show up Oct 29 20:17:56 Hello Oct 29 20:18:11 anyone here wanna talk about the G1? Oct 29 20:18:50 no Oct 29 20:19:07 try #tmobile-g1 Oct 29 20:19:29 thx Oct 29 20:19:59 you are cruel :) Oct 29 20:20:02 yes you are Oct 29 20:20:06 I'm no newb here Oct 29 20:20:06 Disconnect, you suck Oct 29 20:20:11 :-) Oct 29 20:20:12 Disconnect, :) Oct 29 20:20:39 I got tired of looking at google and xda-developers for answers Oct 29 20:20:52 so I decided to come ask you guys Oct 29 20:21:03 I see what you did there Oct 29 20:21:04 anyone have any luck getting root access on the adb shell yet? Oct 29 20:21:27 No, and you NEVER WILL!!! Oct 29 20:21:27 Greetings! I've been experimenting w/ the emulator and helloWorld type applications. I'm having trouble finding solid information; is there a way to browse the market without the market application that wuld be on the G1 phone? is it possible to get the default setup for the G1 in the emulator with all the applications? Oct 29 20:21:32 Well, you might. Oct 29 20:21:49 We wanted you guys to have a nice challenge. Oct 29 20:21:54 It's a foregone conclusion ;) Oct 29 20:22:17 SyntaxNinja: pretty sure the answer is no Oct 29 20:22:18 all of the sarcasm aside.... I take that as a no Oct 29 20:22:29 yeah, but the question is - did HTC want us to have a nice challenge, and how well did they protect the bootloader? Oct 29 20:22:33 * umdk1d3 dances around the room I WIN ^.^ Oct 29 20:22:33 I'm not aware of a root exploit yet. Oct 29 20:22:48 I'm sure that as soon as someone finds a way to do that, it will be all over slashdot Oct 29 20:23:02 Not that I'm recommending you to subscribe to the /. newsfeed, which would be cruel Oct 29 20:23:08 does anyone know if the bootloader resembles anything like the other HTC ones? Oct 29 20:23:21 it looks simlar to other screen shots Oct 29 20:23:34 hold down the camera button and the power button when you turn it on Oct 29 20:23:48 it flashes something, then comes up and says "serial 0" - which goes away when I hit the back button Oct 29 20:23:58 do we get access to it over USB when it's in bootloader mode? Oct 29 20:24:13 so far the answer is no Oct 29 20:24:41 it doesn't appear to show up on the USB bus when it's in bootloader mode Oct 29 20:25:01 I'd take mine apart but there is a little "void" sticker on one of the screws ;) Oct 29 20:25:23 is there a Market application I can install onto the emujlator so I can bootstrap installing other stuff Oct 29 20:25:27 I noticed that today getting my 3g working :) Oct 29 20:25:42 but wait... if the sticker is there, does that mean the warranty is already void? Oct 29 20:25:43 ;) Oct 29 20:25:52 what happend? o.o what do you mean? Oct 29 20:26:10 gah wrong window Oct 29 20:26:36 hey, where are the private keys for T-mobile's flash images in the git repository? Oct 29 20:26:47 ;) Oct 29 20:28:18 what is that thing right next to the sim card that looks like it's removable but is covered witha little flap on one edge of it? Oct 29 20:29:12 the microSD Oct 29 20:29:15 the microsd card maybe? opent he kb, look at the edge of the main body above the talk button Oct 29 20:29:44 (in teh space exposed by the kb open) .. thats the lip of the cover. pull it out and you can see the microsd. prolly there are clearer directions in the docs :) Oct 29 20:30:06 i'm pretty sure it's not hte microsd - it's right next to the "void" sticker screw on mine - between it and the SIM card under the back casing Oct 29 20:30:59 oh little silver dealy? thats the vibe Oct 29 20:30:59 RyeBrye: next to the "void" sticker that you're going to ignore? ;o) Oct 29 20:31:05 not a flap Oct 29 20:31:08 or its the camera button Oct 29 20:31:09 Ahh Oct 29 20:31:10 (note: I'm not suggesting you do that :o) Oct 29 20:31:13 Probably the vibrate thing Oct 29 20:31:14 almost looks like a capacitor Oct 29 20:31:18 vibe Oct 29 20:31:19 camera button's on the other side Oct 29 20:31:23 it's the flux capacitor Oct 29 20:31:26 camera is not so good Oct 29 20:31:34 i can't take a decent picture with it anyway Oct 29 20:31:47 wastrel: try shooting with the battery cover off Oct 29 20:31:56 lots of light, very steady shot, no motion Oct 29 20:32:08 I will likely not obey the void sticker once I get a decent service manual describing how Oct 29 20:32:08 gdsx: srsly? that's inconvenient :] Oct 29 20:32:24 wastrel: I've heard it helps; I haven't tried Oct 29 20:32:25 because service manuals often also describe what to look for to check for signs of it being taken apart before Oct 29 20:32:57 btw, where is the damn quake apk that google will demo but not release? Oct 29 20:33:54 zhobbs: we're not releasing it currently because it uses native code, which is not supported right now Oct 29 20:34:01 ah Oct 29 20:34:19 ..cuz java isn't fast enough? :) Oct 29 20:34:32 Java was too fast, it was unplayable Oct 29 20:34:37 heh Oct 29 20:34:38 lol Oct 29 20:35:47 Cedric2: clearly, that means HTC should have installed a Turbo button Oct 29 20:36:30 gdsx: It was pointed out that the Mandelbrot application on the market is, in fact, using native code via the write-a-JNI-library-to-disk mechanism. So clearly you're distributing it, even if not supporting it. Oct 29 20:37:01 cuz when the fractals went that fast people had seizures Oct 29 20:39:13 this phone should come with a midget to help you change the microSD card Oct 29 20:39:26 seriously, i had to have my gf do that Oct 29 20:39:47 why would you ever change it? Just stick in 8GB or 16GB and never worry about it again Oct 29 20:39:59 I used a pair of tweezers. But yeah: the card cover/flap thing is just not good engineering. Oct 29 20:40:00 OK, maybe next year when 32GB cards are out, you'll want to change it... Oct 29 20:40:26 marcone: well, everyone's gonna want to change it at least once :) Oct 29 20:40:30 i literally couldnt do it Oct 29 20:40:33 I was just going to solder 2 16 gb ones together... probably in series, right? if it were in parallel the capacity would drop in half? Oct 29 20:40:38 ;) Oct 29 20:40:55 andyross: would you have preferred the sd card be located underneath the battery, like in other phones? :) Oct 29 20:41:00 RyeBrye: quotefiled Oct 29 20:41:15 :) Oct 29 20:41:16 marcone: well, it would have been easier for programmers :) Oct 29 20:41:36 marcone: Maybe. As stated, it doesn't get changed much. The frustration with the G1 is that you feel like you're going to snap that flap off trying to get a clear path to the card. Oct 29 20:43:32 The G1 is optimized for people with really long fingernails. Oct 29 20:43:41 I'm used to it, my Nokia 770 had practically the same exact mechanism for the SD card Oct 29 20:43:44 after I swapped the 1gb card with 4gb, I haven't had to touch the card door Oct 29 20:43:46 it never felt like the flap was coming off, but I did feel like my fingernail was coming off at times Oct 29 20:43:50 marcone: e90 has a reasonable door at the bottom (and its one of the only other ones that allows hotswap) Oct 29 20:43:52 i just plug it into my pc to talk to the card Oct 29 20:44:00 fadden: no, it's not, my fingernail doesn't activate the touchscreen : ( Oct 29 20:44:09 im sure someone here has/does use connectbot? Oct 29 20:44:20 I hope I get my 8GB card Oct 29 20:44:26 I do, but I'm kinda screwed Oct 29 20:44:26 ironfroggy_: i'm sure too. Oct 29 20:44:31 vol: okay, "fingernail". You only need one long one. :-) Oct 29 20:44:34 I installed it from the web Oct 29 20:44:38 I was originally planning to have a set of a couple of microSD cards rotate between my mythtv and my phone so I could have it auto-remove commercials and auto-transcode TV shows I record onto my SD card so I could just grab, swap, and go Oct 29 20:44:45 now I can't upgrade to the one on the app store because it claims it's signed with the wrong key Oct 29 20:44:45 fadden: nothing exxcept my meaty finger seems to work :\ Oct 29 20:44:46 now I realize that my plan was flawed Oct 29 20:44:54 anyone know if connectbot maps anything as an escape key? Oct 29 20:45:03 RyeBrye: too bad it doesn't play video :) Oct 29 20:45:15 is there any way to remove an application installed from the web? Oct 29 20:45:17 Video player? Doesn't it have hardware h264 playback? Oct 29 20:45:19 ironfroggy_: do menu-> about .. second page is kb shortcuts. but short version, double-tap the trackball Oct 29 20:45:23 or do I have to reset the g1? Oct 29 20:45:28 spikebike: absolutely Oct 29 20:45:32 you remove it like any other app Oct 29 20:45:43 any other app I can do through the app store Oct 29 20:45:55 but this wasn't installed through the app store Oct 29 20:45:56 go to settings -> applications Oct 29 20:46:03 -> Manage applications Oct 29 20:46:10 sorry, assumed you were going through there Oct 29 20:46:18 you could also use adb to connect to the device and use adb remove Oct 29 20:48:14 ah, simple Oct 29 20:48:20 I feel like an idiot Oct 29 20:48:22 that worked Oct 29 20:48:28 :> Oct 29 20:50:21 huh eggy Oct 29 20:51:24 How much phone storage is available on a new one? I've only got 55 megs left? Oct 29 20:51:30 poetic_folly|G5 ;) Oct 29 20:51:41 indeed Oct 29 20:51:48 sweet. Oct 29 20:52:03 RyeBrye: that's expected yes Oct 29 20:53:25 neat, a bunch of blank activities in anycut. wonder which of them uses the BRICK permission? :) Oct 29 20:53:59 and field test works, neat Oct 29 20:54:05 (what exactly does this do? :) ) Oct 29 20:54:16 man, i really enjoy this gerrit system Oct 29 20:54:26 google did a great job on the workflow for community members Oct 29 20:54:42 Disconnect: Yeah, I discovered Brick the other night. Oct 29 20:54:48 Tried installing an app from the web with it Oct 29 20:54:58 holy shit it wanted to overwrite the android app Oct 29 20:55:09 (app from the web that I wrote and hosted so to see the permission that popped up) Oct 29 20:55:34 yah. someone should sacrifice themselves and try it. Oct 29 20:55:50 googlie-mooglies, i'm looking at you... :) Oct 29 20:55:59 (since you can reflash) Oct 29 20:56:08 That's funny Oct 29 20:57:14 well, I did adb install by accident :\ Oct 29 20:57:17 it didn't fuck up my phone Oct 29 20:57:27 though I've been having data issues today, but I could use data the other day so I'm pretty sure that's not it. Oct 29 20:57:53 can also get emails. Oct 29 20:57:57 jasta: I'm amused to read that after all of your comments along the lines of "Google don't get open source" :) Oct 29 20:58:24 you must have misread my comments, in fact. Oct 29 20:58:35 i never once said they don't get it, i said i'm concerned they do not get it. Oct 29 20:59:00 You must have misread my comment, I said: "along the lines of" Oct 29 20:59:28 So far I've only uploaded one simple patch, but it's been pretty smooth sailing. Oct 29 20:59:33 the source drop was impossible to predict Oct 29 20:59:43 but i am pleased with how this is structured, certainly Oct 29 20:59:55 and im pleased with the quality of the product in general, which i also could not have foreseen Oct 29 21:00:11 I was really impressed with the whole organisation. Oct 29 21:00:13 despite that i do think the phone should be marketted as T-Mobile G1 (BETA) :) Oct 29 21:00:42 I felt like a child in a sweet shop, scanning over the source the first day. Oct 29 21:00:47 tomgibara: heh Oct 29 21:01:01 i would say so far, many of my fears have been allayed. and blieve me, i'm happy about that :) Oct 29 21:01:07 tomgibara: don't forget you can't do anything with that source on a production device :) Oct 29 21:01:30 Disconnect: I can commit back to the project :P Oct 29 21:01:36 tomgibara: but from the information we all had, it could have just as easily gone the other way, so i don't feel silly for having the attitude i did. Oct 29 21:01:50 that'll teach you not to trust us :p Oct 29 21:01:56 actually, it won't. Oct 29 21:02:15 jasta: No, I didn't say you were silly, but I was just not as pessimistic. Oct 29 21:02:17 yah and they accept code fairly reasonably it seems, which is great. but then they have to issue a platform release, and then (eventually) tmob has to test it (in theory..) and schedule it for an OTA update (which is almost guarantied to brick some devices, so its a risk).. Oct 29 21:02:22 it'll just teach me not to categorically mistrust you. Oct 29 21:02:49 Disconnect: Since I intend to own an Android phone, I'm glad that the carriers will be cautious. Oct 29 21:02:54 is there a way to install the "Android market" application itself onto the emulator? I can'T find it for download anywhere. Oct 29 21:02:57 tomgibara: well, the NDA business is what raised all of my red flags. prior to that, i would not have thought anything sinister was afoot :) Oct 29 21:03:09 SyntaxNinja: You can pull it off a production device, but it doesn't work on the emulator. It just dies. Oct 29 21:03:13 SyntaxNinja: (I tried.) Oct 29 21:03:24 tomgibara: it'd be better if it were possible to do updates/flashes from the desktop. since that alleviates the whole "omg ota failed and now my phone it is paperweight!" Oct 29 21:03:26 ttuttle: you can't pull it off a production device except for your fancy debug build Oct 29 21:03:33 Disconnect: you can Oct 29 21:03:36 jasta: I seem to remember saying at the time, the whole NDA thing was pathetic (fairly strong wording for me) Oct 29 21:03:39 Disconnect: you can do updates from the sdcard Oct 29 21:03:44 jasta: Wait, you can't? Oct 29 21:03:50 hm. that's too bad :( Oct 29 21:03:50 ttuttle: no, /system/app and /data/app are unreadable Oct 29 21:03:55 jasta: Do adb pull/push not work on regular... oh. :-( Oct 29 21:04:00 in fact, just about EVERYTHIGN is unreadable. Oct 29 21:04:05 romainguy_: right.. but if i get creative and turn off my phone mid-update, its bricked. i can't go to google.com or android.com or my.tmobile.com and get anything to fix it. Oct 29 21:04:36 and thats going to happen a small percentage of the time with OTA updates.. Oct 29 21:04:50 Disconnect: You can't turn it out without taking the battery out. Oct 29 21:04:54 tomgibara: well, either way i'm relieved and very excited for the future of this project. Oct 29 21:05:03 tomgibara: i saw that you starte dhacking on it already as well hhee Oct 29 21:05:04 Disconnect: And it's also got a recovery filesystem that it can boot to if you brick the regular stuff. Oct 29 21:05:07 been browsing gerrit lately Oct 29 21:05:10 nokia's new method (and one that ohter manufs have had in various forms for years) is better.. little win32 app that says "are you allowed to have this update? .. ok!" and reflashes it Oct 29 21:05:21 Disconnect: nice ;-) Oct 29 21:05:23 ttuttle: i'm sure that method will come, but for now.. Oct 29 21:05:24 tomgibara: i'm implementing IMAP IDLE into the e-mail app and some other goodies Oct 29 21:05:40 * spikebike detests anything that requires a little windows app Oct 29 21:05:41 jasta: My contribution has been much more modest Oct 29 21:05:52 ttuttle: users are ingenious. and "it was blinking this funny symbol so i took the battery out so i could make a call" Oct 29 21:05:54 tomgibara: i have a 4 line patch in the tree already hehe Oct 29 21:05:57 jasta: Are you the one releasing K9-Mail? or is that someone else. (Also, has support for invalid SSL certificates in IMAP been added yet?) Oct 29 21:05:59 jasta cool, as a personal project or as a paid developer? Oct 29 21:06:05 Disconnect: Users are generally dumb :-( Oct 29 21:06:10 Lenolium: that is someone else, i have heard it is quite poorly written as well Oct 29 21:06:17 ttuttle: right. but thats why you have desktop flashing as a fallback. Oct 29 21:06:22 and as soon as that happens.. bootloader is wide open. Oct 29 21:06:22 Disconnect: Yeah. Oct 29 21:06:26 Disconnect: Not true. Oct 29 21:06:30 spikebike: well, personal, but it won't take me but a couple of weekends to finish Oct 29 21:06:38 Disconnect: The bootloader can know how to verify digital signatures ;-) Oct 29 21:06:38 so i wouldnt call it a project Oct 29 21:06:43 cool, just curious Oct 29 21:06:50 spikebike: my project is http://five.googlecode.com Oct 29 21:06:51 Lenolium, I'm told that selecting "SSL (if available)" will make it accept self-signed certs. Oct 29 21:06:53 heh, well it sounds like it might just grow into one ;-) Oct 29 21:07:00 anyway its gtime to go home Oct 29 21:07:02 pawalls: yeah, by just not doing SSL :-P Oct 29 21:07:09 i'll be on later tho, got some coding to do Oct 29 21:07:19 spikebike: no, i have other greater responsibilities :) Oct 29 21:07:26 pawalls: s/self-signed certs/any certs at all/ Oct 29 21:07:35 and evidently (recent comment) it doesn't work for smtp Oct 29 21:07:36 ttuttle, Are you certain that's the case? Oct 29 21:07:39 i'm just trying to get as much hacking done as i can before Diablo III and StarCraft II come out Oct 29 21:07:42 pawalls: No, but it sounds very likely. Oct 29 21:08:11 jasta: Anyway, I have yet to see if my patch is acceptable - but I produced a small animation test app that could be useful in the right context. Maybe that will find a home somewhere. Oct 29 21:08:12 ttuttle, I thought so initially as well, but I was informed otherwise.. I suppose one could test by firewalling 443 and leaving only imaps port open. Oct 29 21:08:16 jasta: too late -- Fallout 3 is already out Oct 29 21:08:24 pawalls: 443? 443 is HTTPS! Oct 29 21:08:26 jasta: what part of StarCraft 2? now they decided to split it in 3... Oct 29 21:08:28 gah.. sorry. Oct 29 21:08:29 fadden: and it's good! Oct 29 21:08:37 143 Oct 29 21:08:43 pawalls: ah Oct 29 21:08:44 ttuttle, :-P Oct 29 21:08:47 romainguy_: well, i'll play all 3, but of course i'm most excited by the Protoss campaign Oct 29 21:09:21 You'd need some logging/instrumentation from your imap server (or some tcpdumping) to determine how it works for starttls though. Oct 29 21:09:41 pawalls: Nah, just packetsniff and look for STARTTLS. It'll be plaintext until then. Oct 29 21:09:55 ttuttle, Right.. which is why I said "some tcpdumping" :-P Oct 29 21:10:03 * DJTachyon thinks he should grab some old Wii games and go trade them in for Fallout 3 Oct 29 21:10:07 pawalls: Oh, didn't see that bit. Oct 29 21:10:15 DJTachyon: That's the right decision. Oct 29 21:10:27 DJTachyon: >> /dev/null >> #android-bs Oct 29 21:10:29 :) Oct 29 21:10:29 i pre-ordered it .. but then I got a G1 :P Oct 29 21:10:33 too bad that this Fallout is really just an Oblivion with guns Oct 29 21:10:34 bah Oct 29 21:10:41 ttuttle, imaps is a little more black and white.. because if you firewall the port, it will simply not work if your assumption is correct. Oct 29 21:10:47 well it is the oblivion engine Oct 29 21:10:57 *shrug* Oct 29 21:11:04 DJTachyon: sure but the whole gameplay really feels like Oblivion Oct 29 21:11:13 not as much Fallout as I hoped it would be Oct 29 21:11:17 good thing I didn't play much oblivion then ;) Oct 29 21:11:24 romainguy_: war never changes. Oct 29 21:11:28 lol Oct 29 21:11:43 hmm .. Red Alert 3 I pre-ordered too Oct 29 21:12:02 which should I get first? Oct 29 21:12:24 So... anyone use AnyCut to create a shortcut to the manual button that checks for uptdates? Oct 29 21:12:25 hahah! Check it out: http://www.zazzle.com/pd/awards Oct 29 21:12:34 My stamp is on the Best of the Day :) Oct 29 21:13:13 must be some Android fans at Zazzle :P Oct 29 21:14:00 oops and just got another beta email from Skyfire .. don't need that browser anymore .. Oct 29 21:14:32 cutest stamp ever Oct 29 21:14:57 :D Oct 29 21:16:19 ugh i need to rework those blue ones to get the font off it now Oct 29 21:17:32 agh i left the xcf's at work .. guess ill do it tomorrow during lunch :P Oct 29 21:17:48 romainguy: thanks for the head's up on that btw Oct 29 21:18:14 np Oct 29 21:18:41 it seems as long as it isnt in that font it is okay though Oct 29 21:18:44 Haven't played Fallout 3 yet, hope you fuckers are lying about it being oblivion Oct 29 21:18:47 : ( Oct 29 21:18:54 (oblivion was the worst elder scrolls game) Oct 29 21:19:16 what does metacritic have to say? Oct 29 21:19:54 w0w .. 93 so far Oct 29 21:20:18 http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/fallout3?q=fallout%203 Oct 29 21:20:43 that is enough to get my hopes back up Oct 29 21:20:58 romainguy_: so you once said that because the email app cant be build against the 1.0 SDK, i should fix any hidden classes its using? Oct 29 21:21:49 thinking about doing that so i can build it cleaner, rather than having to copy files into the project from android's tree Oct 29 21:23:31 Ok, the G1 officially sucks at playing back video Oct 29 21:23:36 jasta: I was wondering, with such substantial changes, how would your improved email app get QA'd / accepted Oct 29 21:24:07 RyeBrye: What video, and what sucks? Oct 29 21:24:17 tomgibara: not my problem Oct 29 21:24:23 just a simple h264 video file encoded via handbrake with iphone HighRes setting Oct 29 21:24:32 RyeBrye, why is that? Oct 29 21:24:36 and the fact that it doesn't play it back at all and just shows a black screen Oct 29 21:24:36 tomgibara: i'm hoping to launch my modifications onto the market tho, so at least it can get user tested that way Oct 29 21:24:52 RyeBrye: My videos are awesome Oct 29 21:25:04 RyeBrye: i don't know what you are doing wrong Oct 29 21:25:20 I'm probably trying to make it play back videos that are beyond it's capaibilities Oct 29 21:25:37 which isn't hard to do since there is nowhere the damned capabilities are listed Oct 29 21:25:55 did you read the video player description? Oct 29 21:26:08 You could browse the source, that might give you some hints Oct 29 21:27:09 The description says 480x352 or smaller Oct 29 21:27:13 but that doesn't say shit about bitrate Oct 29 21:27:21 MPEG4 or 3GPP w/ H264 or H263, and audio in mp3, aac, or amr. 480x352 or smaller Oct 29 21:27:27 oh well try 768k/sec or lower Oct 29 21:27:32 ok Oct 29 21:27:43 i do 512-768 Oct 29 21:27:53 what audio do you use? Oct 29 21:28:00 It's not a huge deal, it's just annoying that it can't handle the vast library of h264 videos already encoded for the iphone Oct 29 21:28:07 The audio is fine Oct 29 21:28:10 I can hear the audio Oct 29 21:28:19 I think it's using aac audio Oct 29 21:29:05 jasta: if you can do it, yes Oct 29 21:29:13 if you can't, or if it's too much work, forget it Oct 29 21:29:55 also, the video player app is just using existing API calls. Oct 29 21:30:09 I would love to see what an optimized version of VLC or TCPMP could do Oct 29 21:30:09 people with G1s -- does t-mobile forbid you from tethering in the contract? Oct 29 21:30:20 foobar: I don't think so Oct 29 21:30:33 I've tethered with T-mobile and much cheaper data plans than this one Oct 29 21:30:39 tethered over bluetooth Oct 29 21:30:46 foobar: But an app for it hasn't come around yet, not to mention the "soft" transfer limit Oct 29 21:30:49 yeah but legally? Oct 29 21:30:52 Yes, legally Oct 29 21:30:57 ah Oct 29 21:30:58 cool Oct 29 21:31:03 It was a few years ago, so their terms may have changed Oct 29 21:31:12 but isn't the BT API a bit limited ATM Oct 29 21:31:13 I didn't see any language forbidding it Oct 29 21:31:32 and there's a tethering option in ADB Oct 29 21:31:35 Ihad to explicitly tell the guy I wanted to tether before he would even turn on the good internet plan on my piece of crap pohne - since my phone had no browser or anything in t Oct 29 21:31:35 so... Oct 29 21:31:38 DJTachyon: I would love to see what an optimized version of VLC or TCPMP could do << I met one of the VLC guys last weekend Oct 29 21:31:39 apparently tmobile "looks the other way" on tethering, from what I hear Oct 29 21:31:40 they want to do something Oct 29 21:31:47 oh awesome Oct 29 21:31:56 T-mobile is a really cood carrier, in my experience - they don't sweat much stuff Oct 29 21:31:56 yeah TCPMP on windows mobile was amazing Oct 29 21:32:02 That would be really exciting Oct 29 21:32:33 And as far as normal GSM stuff goes - they have the exact same "bars" as AT&T does since you roam on their towers seemlessly and for free... (I know their 3G stuff isn't compatible - which is a shame :( ) Oct 29 21:33:01 RyeBrye: agreed.. they are pretty great Oct 29 21:33:22 RyeBrye: no one else unlocks phones for you after 60 days for example Oct 29 21:33:36 Speaking of which, I should get my G1 unlocked today :) Oct 29 21:33:40 Just to see if I can Oct 29 21:33:49 should have got a G1 from Walmart :P Oct 29 21:33:57 Do they have them in there now? Oct 29 21:34:03 the T-mobile retailers near me dont' have them in stock Oct 29 21:34:07 yeah $149 :P Oct 29 21:34:08 or don't stock them rather Oct 29 21:34:23 so if the walmart near me does, I'm going to be a little upset that I paid $179 and waited for them to send me one Oct 29 21:34:40 :) Oct 29 21:35:03 oh it's $30... we're helping the economy :) Oct 29 21:35:16 AND we're also gaining the pleasure of not shopping at Walmart Oct 29 21:35:27 indeed Oct 29 21:35:40 which is easily worth $30 IMO Oct 29 21:35:51 at least it wasn't the orig iPhone thing of $600 vs $400 vs $200 Oct 29 21:35:52 and we got it early Oct 29 21:37:11 hey ryebrye Oct 29 21:37:15 ? Oct 29 21:37:20 i just did a test with AAC audio .. that may be the problem Oct 29 21:37:31 oh, interesting. I'll look into that too Oct 29 21:37:34 my video lags hard with AAC Oct 29 21:41:42 DJTachyon: the difference is you can still find PLENTY of G1's, not so with the release of 1st generation iPhone. Oct 29 21:41:58 hmm? Oct 29 21:42:16 well I think the Apple Tax still had something to do with it Oct 29 21:42:26 hence the $200 rebate Oct 29 21:43:30 unix_lappy: that's more truthful than you probably think Oct 29 21:44:04 I heard the 2nd gen iphones were shitty though Oct 29 21:46:14 finally android source is building Oct 29 21:46:24 :) Oct 29 21:52:13 i love my computer .. build android on a VMWare Workstation instance of kubuntu while rendering video for the G1 :P Oct 29 21:52:25 tmccrary: ? Oct 29 21:52:41 DJTachyon: you could've built it faster if you stopped the video and used make -j Oct 29 21:53:06 -j =? Oct 29 21:53:34 seeing as I gave the VM 2 cores .. I think I'm okay Oct 29 21:54:51 hmm, you "gave" the vm 2 cores? i'm pretty sure vmware workstation can only use one host core. so you're virtualizing the second. Oct 29 21:55:27 it let me select 1 or 2 cores Oct 29 21:55:42 i have a quad ... Oct 29 21:56:13 yea, that's fine. you're likely still only using 1/4. Oct 29 21:56:17 DJTachyon: make -j is for parallelizing the build to take advantage of multiple cores. android's build system makes efficient use of it. Oct 29 21:56:32 in a virtual environment tho, as unix_lappy points out, it probably won't do anything useful Oct 29 21:56:36 hmm interesting .. because two of my cores are going crazy and the other two are fairly tame Oct 29 21:56:49 but if you were building on a native quad core machine, it would dramatically speed up the build Oct 29 21:56:54 i bet :P Oct 29 21:57:00 but im too lazy to dual boot Oct 29 21:57:22 ill remember the -j though .. could make things faster Oct 29 21:57:26 well, if you were sensible you'd use a competent host os and windows as guest. not the other way around :) Oct 29 21:57:38 hehehe Oct 29 21:57:42 DJTachyon: vmware workstation can utilize multiple cores, the process that operates the VM only works on one, so its very possible that 2 cores are going crazy, but only one is being used for the VM. Oct 29 21:57:43 indeed sir Oct 29 21:57:56 oh interesting okay .. Oct 29 21:58:11 well actually all 4 are spiking .. but two are definately more active Oct 29 21:58:11 jasta: heh, that's only viable on a desktop most of the time :-P Oct 29 21:58:45 maybe I shouldnt have been stingy and given it 2 of my 4 gigs instead of 1 Oct 29 22:00:06 * unix_lappy wishes virtualbox would put out a roadmap citing that they will have threaded VM processes soon. Oct 29 22:00:24 so he could decide on core2duo vs core2quad. Oct 29 22:00:24 * spikebike just uses xen Oct 29 22:00:49 you can dynamically change the number of CPUs in use in a domU Oct 29 22:01:45 make -j 10 == 10 minutes to do a clean build of Android from the git tree on a MacPro :) Oct 29 22:02:40 romainguy_: you get a new unibody one? :-) Oct 29 22:06:07 Hows'it going guys Oct 29 22:06:18 howdy. Oct 29 22:07:00 hey ryebrye? Oct 29 22:07:23 I'm getting rumours of all these people selling unlocked G1s. These all imports from Euro? Oct 29 22:07:33 Try MPEG4/MP4 @ 256k and FLAC AAC @ 96k .. that seems to run okay Oct 29 22:07:40 And wouldn't the 3G not work w/ ATT SIM anyways? Oct 29 22:08:43 bbl Oct 29 22:09:26 Hi all, I have a question, After compiling the source, how could I create android.jar??? Oct 29 22:11:02 joebrain correct, g1's 3g isn't going to work anywhere else Oct 29 22:11:43 spikebike: that's not really true Oct 29 22:12:00 spikebike: it won't work on AT&T's 3G network, but it does work on other, international 3G networks Oct 29 22:12:27 spikebike: the freqs that the handset supports are listed on HTC's website Oct 29 22:12:48 Terdhex: android.jar is in...erm, hang on Oct 29 22:13:19 has anyone here gotten an OS update ota and if so did it tell you or just show up? Oct 29 22:16:13 Terdhex: the analogy in the source output is out/target/common/obj/JAVA_LIBRARIES/framework_intermediates/classes.jar Oct 29 22:16:29 but do keep in mind that this is not the same as the one distrbuted with the SDK> Oct 29 22:16:56 that one is trimmed (contains only public classes) and has no code (every function throws a RuntimeException) Oct 29 22:18:04 whereas the framework jar that the source produces is really just a compilation of frameworks/base/ Oct 29 22:18:51 jasta: ahhh, so if we use that jar to develop we can access all the private apis Oct 29 22:20:04 i dont think this file is interchangable with the SDK's android.jar for some weird reason Oct 29 22:20:20 as in, if you just replace android.jar with it, the Eclipse plugin seems to break Oct 29 22:20:27 go ahead and try it tho, i really dont remember why it broke Oct 29 22:21:15 thanks, I was about to try... Oct 29 22:21:35 im going to be very disappointed if i have to return my G1 :-( Oct 29 22:22:46 so wait... G1 on att? Oct 29 22:22:53 or is that just a hoax? Oct 29 22:23:28 g1 will work just fine on at&t i'm sure, just no 3G Oct 29 22:23:38 whats this unlocking site? Oct 29 22:23:39 Jasta is right Oct 29 22:24:05 and without 3G, it's a useless piece of junk :) Oct 29 22:24:14 at least for my purposes hehe Oct 29 22:24:17 I used it on Edge for 1+ year, it's okay Oct 29 22:24:18 you need to unlock for at&t? the option is right there in the settings to connect to at&t if you've got a compatible sim card. Oct 29 22:24:27 hard to go back once you start getting used to 3G though Oct 29 22:24:44 [03:23:43PM] g1 will work just fine on at&t i'm sure, just no 3G Oct 29 22:24:45 Gmail is fine on Edge, Maps is probably the one that's most impacted Oct 29 22:24:47 Cedric2: yeah ive had 3G with AT&T for over a year now Oct 29 22:24:48 well, whats this? Oct 29 22:24:49 http://www.unlock-tmobileg1.com/EN/index.php Oct 29 22:24:49 why? att has 3G :/ Oct 29 22:24:58 sisco: different bands Oct 29 22:25:01 ya me too, i have 3G on my crappy att phone right now Oct 29 22:25:04 i cant seem to get maps to work. period. i dunno if the network is that incomplete around here or what. Oct 29 22:25:07 Dougie187: I've used that...it works Oct 29 22:25:10 sisco: because the hardware supports t-mobile's freq, and the more popular 2100 freq. not at&t's. Oct 29 22:25:21 i had to find my way home just now and it took the whole way and i still hadnt gotten directions pulled up. 20 minute drive. Oct 29 22:25:32 what sucks is i really did need those directions! Oct 29 22:26:48 Cedric2: AT&T's network was better, i'm a little disappointed having switched to T-mobile Oct 29 22:26:56 but it's not hopeless, t-mobile's network is OK for my needs Oct 29 22:27:14 then why did i see so many people wanted to get their iphones running on tmobile? Oct 29 22:27:16 basically because i'm a snob and prefer not to leave the city Oct 29 22:27:19 Never used 3G on AT&T so I can't comment. 3G speed on TMobile was amazing in the first days of the roll out, but it was probably because nobody was on it yet Oct 29 22:27:26 ironfroggy_: the original iphone did not even support 3G Oct 29 22:27:36 well, i didnt say original. Oct 29 22:27:53 Cedric2: AT&T's speed is about the same, but its coverage and signal strength is substantially better Oct 29 22:28:00 god d@mnit Oct 29 22:28:11 my new G1 won't be here til next week unless they ship express Oct 29 22:28:28 Cedric2: for instance, in my house in Seattle proper i have EDGE only, and even that signal is weak. Oct 29 22:28:38 my company's stupid address won't resolve because they are PO Box only and UPS wont ship to PO boxes Oct 29 22:28:44 on T-Mobile, I mean. On AT&T, it was of course 3G and solid signal strength Oct 29 22:28:54 im going to have to call tmobile about my service here. tmobile only recently started service in this area, so i dont know what affect that has. Oct 29 22:29:17 TMobile only started rolling out 3G about a month ago, so it's really brand new Oct 29 22:29:27 Cedric2: but again, it's fine for my needs. i never leave the city and so far my house is the only 3G deadzone i've encountered that i would have wanted Oct 29 22:29:39 how do i figure out if im even in edge or g3? Oct 29 22:29:49 ironfroggy_: look at the G1 status bar, it tells you Oct 29 22:29:51 ugh, right now, neither. Oct 29 22:29:51 ironfroggy_: little icon in the status bar Oct 29 22:29:55 no service. Oct 29 22:29:58 it will say 3G or E Oct 29 22:29:58 E means EDGE, G means GPRS, 3G means, erm, you can figure it out. Oct 29 22:30:26 Yeah, just to be clear: "G" alone is not a good sign :) Oct 29 22:30:26 and if i have none of those? Oct 29 22:30:41 'X' means no signal Oct 29 22:30:48 i have bars, but no letters. Oct 29 22:30:48 as a side note, i have noticed a lot of developers incorrectly use RelativeLayout to put right-hanging icons/text in list rows Oct 29 22:30:50 WiFi looks like 4 horizontal lines Oct 29 22:30:56 oh looks like android built .. :) Oct 29 22:30:58 i know the wifi is a different icon Oct 29 22:31:02 that sucks that it costs 29 bucks to order a code to unlock your g1. Oct 29 22:31:03 jasta: what's wrong with that? Oct 29 22:31:04 the text in the center when it gets long will touch the icon Oct 29 22:31:20 zhobbs: if you dont do it properly, long text in the main area of the row will draw over the icon Oct 29 22:31:22 less than 45 min for a build Oct 29 22:31:24 instead of wrapping Oct 29 22:31:27 not sure when it finished though Oct 29 22:31:32 jasta: that's true Oct 29 22:31:38 zhobbs: this is present in the application list hehe Oct 29 22:31:41 and ConnectBot Oct 29 22:31:50 and quite a few other apps i've played with Oct 29 22:32:00 not mine :) Oct 29 22:32:15 so now how to I test the build on the emulator? :P Oct 29 22:32:31 DJTachyon_: google around, some dude gave instructions Oct 29 22:32:45 i dont get this. i can understand when the service goes between nothing and one measely bar, but mine jumps from none to 2 or 3. Oct 29 22:33:36 iron: mountains? weather? copper piping in the walls? :P Oct 29 22:33:38 brb Oct 29 22:34:28 wheather has been decent. its been like this since i got it yesterday. im on flat land. Oct 29 22:38:11 so my phone status says data services are disconnected.. Oct 29 22:38:25 well, did you pay for them? :) Oct 29 22:38:26 Badly configured APN? Oct 29 22:38:37 course i paid for it! Oct 29 22:38:44 ironfroggy_: t-mobile can help you with this, im sure Oct 29 22:38:47 you cant get the thing from tmobile without an unlimited data plan. Oct 29 22:38:47 ironfroggy_: you should take it up with TMobile Oct 29 22:38:49 im sure. Oct 29 22:38:52 have any apps been pulled from the market? i can't seem to find shareyourboard anymore Oct 29 22:38:53 im just saying. wtf. Oct 29 22:40:08 how to use variables in main.xml? and how to define them in the code? Oct 29 22:40:14 and it also says edge :-/ Oct 29 22:41:12 seva: the developer might have removed it Oct 29 22:41:26 oinkboink: variables? huh? Oct 29 22:41:45 if you want string literals, put them in values/strings.xml (for internationalization) Oct 29 22:41:53 if you want dynamic data bound to views, use code. Oct 29 22:42:13 something like: android:background="variable" Oct 29 22:43:03 jasonchen: thanks, i've emailed the dev Oct 29 22:43:06 er jasta: ^ Oct 29 22:44:02 oinkboink: that makes no sense to me. if you want to conditionalize the background, do so in code. Oct 29 22:44:13 if you want to abstract the values, use values/strings.xml, values/colors.xml, etc. Oct 29 22:44:59 see the ApiDemos, it covers a large spectrum of what the xml resource system in android can do Oct 29 22:45:54 wow, a lot of the permissions were changed for the filesystem as compared to the emulator Oct 29 22:46:01 ok, thank you ... Oct 29 22:48:58 .. Oct 29 22:51:24 any device people wann test my app? Oct 29 22:52:46 what's your app? Oct 29 22:53:01 yeah, depends on what it is Oct 29 22:53:09 Glance -- file manager... http://androidnerds.com/downloads/Glance.apk Oct 29 22:53:22 supports basic file operations Oct 29 22:53:35 oh, it's a file explorer? Oct 29 22:53:36 Same here, I got an app that need hardware testing. http://mobile.thauvin.net/android/ - It's a simple tip calculator. Oct 29 22:53:56 herriojr: yea, with file operations as well Oct 29 22:53:56 I'm working on a kickass flashlight app Oct 29 22:54:09 michaelnovakjr, I'l; be happy to Oct 29 22:54:09 lol Oct 29 22:54:22 thanks ^^ link above Oct 29 22:54:25 ok, give me about a day, I have stuff I'm working on for a deadline on Tuesday Oct 29 22:54:26 yep Oct 29 22:54:44 I'll give a list of errors and reports if I get any Oct 29 22:54:57 cool... i have a reporter... bugs.androidnerds.com Oct 29 22:54:57 email me at herriojr@gmail.com, so I can get back to you about it Oct 29 22:55:48 any f the googlers, if stadlero is near you, poke 'im and ask him if it was important? Oct 29 22:55:51 *of Oct 29 22:56:59 * stadlero poked Oct 29 22:57:54 tmobile forgot to add the required data plan i paid for to my account. Oct 29 22:58:05 ironfroggy_: that has been a common theme Oct 29 22:58:15 ironfroggy_: glad you resolved it Oct 29 22:58:47 thats common? jeeze. Oct 29 22:58:58 so android cant run "regular" java ME stuff right? Oct 29 22:59:05 no Oct 29 22:59:09 interesting. Oct 29 22:59:32 just noticing that the maps app calls itself "Blackberry and Java ME versions" in the legalese Oct 29 23:00:42 i read someone's working on a j2me emulator Oct 29 23:00:58 to run midlets on android Oct 29 23:01:02 Heh, so we can run all those must-have J2ME applications? :) Oct 29 23:01:09 seemingly, lol Oct 29 23:01:09 J2ME died. Let it rest. Oct 29 23:01:32 hey, didn't you guys just release a gmail update for j2me :/ Oct 29 23:01:35 wasn't there a doom4android demo a while ago? Oct 29 23:01:45 waldo_. i Oct 29 23:01:45 ' Oct 29 23:01:47 err Oct 29 23:01:47 It was Quake actually Oct 29 23:01:56 , i've seen ference to a quake port Oct 29 23:01:58 yeah Oct 29 23:02:19 The glquake sources are available. I'm sure someone else could do another port. Oct 29 23:02:33 there is some emulator that opera mini used to port to android Oct 29 23:02:49 tho they havent updated it since then and it doesnt work on the current api, of course. Oct 29 23:04:40 hmm.. funny there isn't a 1st person shooter on the market yet Oct 29 23:05:13 how do you reset the android eclipse logcat plugin if for some reason it stops displaying logs? Oct 29 23:05:22 without exiting eclipse Oct 29 23:05:26 * andyross blames some of that on the quality of the OpenGL examples... Oct 29 23:05:49 herriojr: Use "adb logcat" instead? :) Oct 29 23:07:09 So no takers on testing my little app? ;-) Oct 29 23:07:58 ErikT, I think there's a discernable disinterest in tip calculators after so many hitting the market lol Oct 29 23:08:12 That could be. ;-) Oct 29 23:08:31 * andyross has an infant son at home, so isn't likely to be in a restaurant in the near future. Oct 29 23:08:44 I'll test it for you in a few Oct 29 23:09:00 too bad 802.1x EAP-TLS is not supported :/ Oct 29 23:09:19 though, i'm currently keeping BistroMath or whatever it's called, for those moments when I'm too slogged to do my own math Oct 29 23:09:49 Thanks, Languish. I didn't work on cbeust phone, but he's not using a production version. Oct 29 23:09:54 damn t-mobile, 3g's down *again* Oct 29 23:10:03 I don't really see what a "tip calculator" offers over the regular calculator that's already included Oct 29 23:10:20 marcone: regular calculators do regular calculations. Oct 29 23:10:24 Tip calculators calculate tips. Oct 29 23:10:27 QED Oct 29 23:10:47 marcone, when you're slogged, it's easier to just fill in the fields, so you don't forget to consider the tax rate of your locale among other things Oct 29 23:10:52 Well, I'd agree fadden, except it becomes a little complex when you need to exclude the tax from the tip calculation, etc. Oct 29 23:10:58 Erik, to make your calculator competitive, you should add a flashlight to it Oct 29 23:11:09 haha Oct 29 23:11:10 cbeust_ haha Oct 29 23:11:22 and then it can be added to the Flashligh comparison Oct 29 23:11:23 in main.xml i have the line: android:layout_width="@string/field_width" and in strings.xml the line: 40px ...but i get an error...no ressources found... Oct 29 23:11:30 ErikT: it needs gps so it can go reverse-polish in poland Oct 29 23:12:11 if you're so strapped for cash that you have to exclude the tax from the tip, then you probably can't afford a G1 to begin with... Oct 29 23:12:11 * Disconnect is tempted to build a simple app that requests almost all the perms just to see how many people say yes.. Oct 29 23:12:36 Hey, at $150 everyone can afford one! Oct 29 23:12:42 It's the Model T of phones Oct 29 23:12:48 haha Oct 29 23:12:57 marcone, why should you pay tip on taxes, taxes neither goes to the waiter or the restaurant.? Oct 29 23:13:00 marcone: I was thinking the same thing Oct 29 23:13:02 cbeust__: re walmart phone? Oct 29 23:13:09 yup Oct 29 23:13:27 ...why are you tipping so low that w/ w/o taxes makes a difference? Oct 29 23:13:31 word .. requires activation + 2yr contract but oh well Oct 29 23:15:38 ErikT: suppose you go out to dinner with your date, and spend $100. If you're in California, you'll end up paying an extra $8.50 or so in tax. Then you tip 20%, to further impress your date. If you tip on the tax, your total will be $130.20, otherwise it will be $128.5 Oct 29 23:15:55 you don't need a tip calculator if you don't tip. simple. Oct 29 23:15:58 Does that $1.70 make that much of a difference? Oct 29 23:16:19 Well, my date would be impressed an extra $1.70. Oct 29 23:16:39 My wife wouldn't. ;-) Oct 29 23:16:46 exactly. So double the tax, round up, and throw in few extra $. Done. Oct 29 23:16:56 Not sure I agree with the criticism there: clearly the point of the tool is to be correct, and the point of the tip is to reward the wait staff, not the state. So tipping without tax seems like proper, if pedantic, software behavior to me. Oct 29 23:17:22 double the tax only works here because 2x CA tax ~= standard tip Oct 29 23:17:32 tip calcs are more useful in other states Oct 29 23:17:39 also, most people suck at math Oct 29 23:17:52 Seems like this discussion is an existence proof that all those tip calculators folks are laughing at are actually useful gadgets. :) Oct 29 23:17:53 michaelnovakjr, problem with downloading the app that I've encountered before. Every time, it's been an issue with the browser/webserver, not the .apk itself. T get the "warning" after it downloads, that installing will replace another application. Oct 29 23:18:14 I think it has to do with transferring as the wrong mime type Oct 29 23:18:17 divide by 10, double. round up or down depending on service. or if its that bad, just divide by 10. Oct 29 23:18:39 i'll look into that languish thanks Oct 29 23:18:49 is it customary to tip if service is bad? Oct 29 23:19:09 Disconnect: given that some people can't figure out how to exit ToddlerLock, maybe even such simple math is too much for the average user... :) Oct 29 23:19:17 hahahaha Oct 29 23:19:18 michaelnovakjr, usually it's fixed by prepending "www." to the domain, but in this case that didn't work. (bug in the browser) it also occurs when a file's location is being redirected Oct 29 23:19:29 maybe i need toddlerlock for giving demos Oct 29 23:19:45 ah ok Oct 29 23:20:26 f00f-, it depends on the place. but if service is bad, you say WHY you left a reduced or no tip. Keep in mind, if you have a watress and a buboy/girl, or anyone else helps you, they split the tip.. so if any one of them provides poor service.. try not to screw the others Oct 29 23:20:30 Tipping a percentage is flawed to start with. Say, I drink water, and get a few refills, the waiter will get no tip for that. Now, if I get beer, he gets a tip. Tip should be based on the actual 'work', not a percentage. But people do suck at math. Oct 29 23:20:53 ErikT, that's called common sense. Oct 29 23:20:59 which most people don't have Oct 29 23:21:02 :| Oct 29 23:24:13 Anyway, I was just looking at Bistromath, etc. Neither of them seem to over a way to input the amounts on the screen, you have to use the keyboard. That's kinda weird. Oct 29 23:24:34 heh Oct 29 23:25:20 That's something I never liked about the J2ME version I wrote many years ago, and why I decided to write one for android. Oct 29 23:25:22 erik, my version of bistromath has an on-screen calc Oct 29 23:25:32 err on screen number pad I should say Oct 29 23:25:48 Nice, that must be new, I just watched a review of it, and it didn't have it. Oct 29 23:30:08 languish, I see it, I just install it on the emulator. Oct 29 23:30:17 Interesting interface. Oct 29 23:39:51 Quick poll- Has anyone here experienced strangeness like being logged in as someone else to a google service (or other cookie weirdness)?? Oct 29 23:40:26 ...in the browser that is. Oct 29 23:40:54 If you're actually logged in as someone else, that's a bug on the server end... Oct 29 23:41:07 yes I was. Oct 29 23:41:22 and T-Mobile just brushed me off big-time on their online chat-help. Oct 29 23:41:47 Dunno. But a client can't magically synthesize authentication for someone else. Could be a proxy bug, maybe? Oct 29 23:41:49 hello Oct 29 23:41:52 I logged into docs.google.com and was logged in as someone I've never heard of. I should have written it down, but I was at a restaurant and demoing google docs.... so didn't. Oct 29 23:41:59 oh wow Oct 29 23:42:03 i have a question Oct 29 23:42:04 yeah no kidding wow! Oct 29 23:42:05 Oct 29 23:42:05 that would rock Oct 29 23:42:28 I logged out and when I tried to log in it said my cookies needed to be turned on! I double-checked and sure enough it was on. Oct 29 23:42:43 Finally after solving a captcha it let me log in as me... Oct 29 23:43:02 I thought I remembered someone else somehwere online saying something similar had happened to them too. Oct 29 23:43:21 But if this is common it's a major major configuration bug. I was on the g3 network incidentally Oct 29 23:43:29 major security problem I mean. Oct 29 23:43:49 yeah, like it's tied to the ip address, or some proxy thin Oct 29 23:43:52 the g1 includes broken link bookmarks. thats kinda sad :-/ Oct 29 23:44:07 Could be. Get a screenshot if it happens again. Which brings up a question: is there a screenshot application for the device? Oct 29 23:44:15 that's a good question too Oct 29 23:44:43 what does "adb ppp ..." do? the documentation on it is sparce Oct 29 23:44:44 andyross: i think there's an option for that in ddms, but im not sure Oct 29 23:44:46 well I'm putting it out there in case anyone else has a similar problem Oct 29 23:44:54 scootley i think it's ppp over usb or something Oct 29 23:45:41 wonder if it could be used for tethering... Oct 29 23:45:47 ppp over usb is what the adb documentation says, but is the local machine the ppp server or client? Oct 29 23:46:10 dunno Oct 29 23:47:09 ah.. good ole 'ppp... Oct 29 23:53:09 hello Oct 29 23:53:11 i have a question Oct 29 23:57:51 i'm having trouble with the android mail app... it is failing authentication... and it seems because my password has a space in it Oct 29 23:57:54 how do i restore the alpha values of my png file when I store it into the content provider? Oct 29 23:58:46 coincidentally, i like the mobile gmail website better than the gmail app... Oct 29 23:59:02 might it be possible to actually get taken to the site instead of the app? Oct 30 00:08:42 jaek: Change your password? It says password, not passwords or passphrase right. Oct 30 00:09:54 ironfroggy_: go from browser.. bookmark it, you can create a shortcut to the bookmark Oct 30 00:11:40 has anyone implemented a solution for app updates? Oct 30 00:11:48 generic Oct 30 00:13:24 we are expecting the market to provide that Oct 30 00:13:43 hmmm, but until then? Oct 30 00:13:54 until then i wouldnt waste your time Oct 30 00:14:13 well my client is demanding it lol Oct 30 00:14:16 gambler, if you didnt notice, spaces are valid characters in most (sane) systems Oct 30 00:14:24 i have something, but i need something better Oct 30 00:14:26 and quick Oct 30 00:14:33 mpardo: well then waste your time if you want to. the most obvious way would be to just pester them to redownload from the market Oct 30 00:14:54 and if the android mail application is garbling spaces it is a bug Oct 30 00:15:09 jaek: source is available :) Oct 30 00:15:14 that's what it does now... i have a "check for updates" button that takes to them the market Oct 30 00:15:16 ive already fixed a bug in it Oct 30 00:15:23 but the client wants it to check automatically Oct 30 00:15:41 mpardo: so have it check automatically. write a service and hook it up to the alarmmanager Oct 30 00:15:42 i guess I'm asking the wrong question Oct 30 00:15:53 then use a notification if it finds updates Oct 30 00:15:54 really simple Oct 30 00:16:04 the method i use now crashes the app if there is no connection Oct 30 00:16:16 cuz it waits to connect untill a timeout... freezing the app and UI Oct 30 00:16:17 morning droids Oct 30 00:16:24 i need to check for connectivity i guess Oct 30 00:17:27 what's the best way to check for connectivity? Oct 30 00:17:53 ConnectivityService - lemme find the exact class. Oct 30 00:18:45 Can anyone point me towards Android documentation of the interface between the lowest layer of the Java API and Dalvik VM, and actual hardware on a new device to which Android is being ported? In particular, what Linux device drivers are required, and what other stuff outside of Linux device drivers is required? Oct 30 00:19:53 mpardo: http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/net/ConnectivityManager.html Oct 30 00:20:09 k thx Oct 30 00:21:09 rwhitby: wouldn't that be libc? Oct 30 00:21:45 fadden0: I'm thinking of support for specific hardware devices, rather than C libraries. Oct 30 00:21:50 jbq: not quite sure how to use that Oct 30 00:22:02 Check the last function in http://git.source.android.com/?p=platform/packages/providers/DownloadProvider.git;a=blob;f=src/com/android/providers/downloads/Helpers.java;h=f966a7f56577e65a4a99e278273c82c5a159ae0b;hb=HEAD Oct 30 00:22:09 e.g. if someone put a digital compass on an Android phone, what would one need to do to make it available to applications? Oct 30 00:22:48 rwhitby: hardware/libhardware/* might be what you want Oct 30 00:23:24 rwhitby: you mean available through intents? Oct 30 00:23:30 like the radar app? Oct 30 00:23:55 umdk1d3: dunno what application abstraction it would be yet, just learning how the plumbing underneath works. Oct 30 00:23:56 You need device driver -> hardware abstraction -> JNI natives Oct 30 00:24:18 ohhhh from a hardware perspective Oct 30 00:24:41 might look at providing it up through SensorManager Oct 30 00:25:41 fadden: and the hardware abstraction is in hardware/libhardware/* ? Oct 30 00:27:39 hardware/libhardware/sensors/sensors_trout.c has some low-level sensor stuff; /base/core/jni/server/com_android_server_SensorService.cpp uses hardware/libhardware/include/hardware/sensors.h; SensorService uses the JNI functions. Oct 30 00:28:28 rwhitby: in the spirit of transparency, you'll want to know that some work in underway to greatly extend the sensor APIs beyond what exists in 1.0, and you might want to wait a tiny bit until those are publicly available (I don't have any timeframe), so that you don't waste time learning the current APIs to have them change under your feet for the next release. Oct 30 00:28:31 rwhitby: usually Oct 30 00:29:51 jbq: thanks for the heads up Oct 30 00:30:07 fadden0: that's exactly the chain of source code relationships I was looking for - thanks! Oct 30 00:30:39 rwhitby: please do bear in mind that none of this constitutes a public API, and is subject to change in ways that maximize inconvenience. :-) Oct 30 00:31:08 fadden0: understood. I'm used to working with bleeding edge :-) Oct 30 00:40:16 what method called by pivot ? Oct 30 00:41:44 jbq: as far as the API roadmaps goes, is that still OHA member access only, or is the Android API available for community participation now? Oct 30 00:43:21 public APIs are public as part of 1.0. Oct 30 00:43:48 As for the rest, it'll all be progressively into the public view as part of the open-source effort. Oct 30 00:44:10 public API are "application" API, not porting APIs. Oct 30 00:45:03 jbq: For an example, what if I had a new type of device (let's take an "ultrasound ruler" as an example) - how does someone who is not an OHA member influence the public API to include an abstraction for that new type of device? Oct 30 00:46:28 rwhitby: the OHA has little to do with this, to be honest. In a nutshell, you'd discuss that with myself and the other engineer who has worked on the new sensor APIs. We've designed it such that you can introduce device-specific sensor types in addition to the list of well-defined ones. Oct 30 00:47:23 jbq: and the relevant google engineers act as the clearing house for device-specific sensor type registrations? Oct 30 00:47:49 jbq: is there a formal process for this, or do we just chat in IRC and email like this? ;-) Oct 30 00:48:01 if you want to make your sensor types as part of the public API, yes (it's really little more than a list of integers, to be honest). Oct 30 00:48:40 (a sensor is little more than an entity with an enumerated type, that returns or sends arrays of floating-point values) Oct 30 00:48:47 and if we have a contribution which is a new sensor type, we can just submit it through gerrit and it gets reviewed for possible inclusion? Oct 30 00:49:15 Yes - pending approval by the API council. Oct 30 00:49:27 (that's where I recommend waiting until the "new" API is visible in git). Oct 30 00:49:53 jbq: Oct 30 00:49:56 is this how? Oct 30 00:49:59 ConnectivityManager cm = (ConnectivityManager)getSystemService(Context.CONNECTIVITY_SERVICE); Oct 30 00:50:01 NetworkInfo[] nic = cm.getAllNetworkInfo(); Oct 30 00:50:13 wow this life simulation is pretty cool Oct 30 00:50:22 mpardo: sorry, gotta go (really). you're on the right track. Oct 30 00:50:27 jbq: is the process the same for other things, like new display types, new input types, new audio types etc? Oct 30 00:50:31 try getActiveNetworkInfo(), easier to deal with. Oct 30 00:50:35 ah! it breates there Oct 30 00:50:38 k Oct 30 00:50:41 breaks* Oct 30 01:09:17 so java will work cleanly inside android? Oct 30 01:09:21 there need to be no change? Oct 30 01:11:17 how is babby formed? Oct 30 01:21:09 anyone familiar with the aidl tool? Oct 30 01:21:47 romainguy_: hey, are you familiar with the aidl tool? Oct 30 01:21:52 not at all Oct 30 01:21:58 ramblurr, what do you want to know about it? Oct 30 01:22:28 i've got a custom lib im using in a non-android eclipse project Oct 30 01:22:36 but ive made some classes Parcelable Oct 30 01:22:41 and ive created aidl files for them Oct 30 01:23:02 but when i try to import the Parcelable classes in my service interface aidl file Oct 30 01:23:20 you'll need to have the source .aidl available and in the path the tool searches Oct 30 01:23:38 it says it "couldn't find import for class Blah" Oct 30 01:24:12 i use the -I flag to specify the directory of the Parcelable's aidl files Oct 30 01:24:20 unfortunately i'm not sure how the ide sets up the paths Oct 30 01:24:32 ditto Oct 30 01:24:34 you may need to make the include path the base directory Oct 30 01:24:35 so im trying to do it in the shell Oct 30 01:24:43 hm ok Oct 30 01:24:51 i think it uses the package name to map to a dir path, like java Oct 30 01:24:59 but i'd need to look at the code to be sure :) Oct 30 01:25:32 hm so im slightly confused Oct 30 01:25:37 i have several aidl files Oct 30 01:25:46 a couple that are for the Parcelable classes Oct 30 01:26:08 that just say package com.foo.blah; parcelable Blah; Oct 30 01:26:16 then the aidl for my Interface Oct 30 01:26:52 i believe they should all be in directories matching their packages Oct 30 01:27:20 so src/com/foo/blah/Blah.aidl Oct 30 01:27:25 and you would -I src Oct 30 01:27:47 but i'm really not sure Oct 30 01:27:48 haha Oct 30 01:27:52 that worked i think Oct 30 01:28:40 yea it did Oct 30 01:28:42 great :) Oct 30 01:28:46 cool Oct 30 01:28:51 only the IDE still can't find the import statement Oct 30 01:28:56 so it's generating an error Oct 30 01:30:41 what error? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Oct 30 01:32:09 2008 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Oct 30 01:32:37 2008 Oct 30 01:32:39 this is the ADT eclipse plugin Oct 30 01:35:47 high Oct 30 01:35:52 hows everyone Oct 30 01:36:05 any cool new stuff? Oct 30 01:36:32 yep goo wiki conway's game of life, then download automata Oct 30 01:36:40 don't do it in reverse Oct 30 01:36:42 been that kind of last two weeks d0nets, hasn't it Oct 30 01:37:11 eh? Oct 30 01:37:16 im confroosed Oct 30 01:37:20 lol Oct 30 01:37:35 d03boy, wiki search for "conway's game of life" read about it Oct 30 01:37:39 anyone here running eclipse on a netbook? Oct 30 01:37:40 oh high intoit Oct 30 01:37:45 then download the app automata Oct 30 01:37:48 * d0nets high fives intoit Oct 30 01:37:49 hackbod: can i submit a bug report for the ADT plugin and source.android.com? Oct 30 01:38:03 d0nets, you just figured out it was me? lol Oct 30 01:38:15 yea Oct 30 01:38:18 i knew you were in here Oct 30 01:38:21 but i wasnt sure twat nick Oct 30 01:38:27 I even referred to you as st0ned earlier Oct 30 01:38:29 lol Oct 30 01:38:38 lol wtf really? Oct 30 01:38:40 was i here? Oct 30 01:38:43 yeah Oct 30 01:38:59 hackbod: looks like there already is one http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=903 :\ Oct 30 01:39:02 it was about 30 mins.. original question was d0nets asking about his app Oct 30 01:39:07 [12:20] he had a legit question (eventually, once it was dragged out of him) .. although he didn't like the answer so he asked a few more times.. Oct 30 01:39:10 [12:20] well, he is st0ned Oct 30 01:39:21 haha Oct 30 01:39:28 :P Oct 30 01:39:30 wait what question was i asking Oct 30 01:39:34 shh Oct 30 01:39:38 DO NOt BRING IT UP AGAIN Oct 30 01:39:40 ohhh that question Oct 30 01:39:41 hahahaha Oct 30 01:39:45 the L word Oct 30 01:39:47 yeah Oct 30 01:39:51 *smack* Oct 30 01:40:16 you know i now see why Oct 30 01:40:22 its kinda the "politics" of software dev Oct 30 01:40:29 yep Oct 30 01:40:36 Ramblurr, it certainly works in the platform build system; unfortunately i don't know anything about the Eclipse plug-ins to know what problem might be going on there Oct 30 01:40:40 it's the same aidl tool Oct 30 01:40:55 i tried doing a log cat dump for five-music Oct 30 01:41:06 my g1 didnt show up in my ubuntu eclipse Oct 30 01:41:08 nor my windblows Oct 30 01:41:13 hackbod: perhaps the plug-in isn't passing the correct -I parameter? Oct 30 01:41:13 the windblows i updated the sdk today Oct 30 01:41:17 hey do we have read/write access to system files on the G1 yet? I've been out a couple days Oct 30 01:41:19 and i updated the plugin Oct 30 01:41:19 le sigh Oct 30 01:41:29 but it gave me an error about adb Oct 30 01:41:39 it says im using 1.8 and i need 2.0 Oct 30 01:41:45 hackbod: it should probably pass -I for items in the android projectbuild path Oct 30 01:41:50 yesterday my ubuntu partition said the opposite hahaha Oct 30 01:41:51 project's build path* Oct 30 01:41:58 im using 2.0 and in eeded at least 1.8 Oct 30 01:42:00 poetic_folly: no :) Oct 30 01:42:13 romainguy_: hey. seen your apps in market. ;) Oct 30 01:42:23 do you know if anyone is working on that yet? Oct 30 01:42:42 i know someone that would be good at all that Oct 30 01:42:52 unlocking, hacking the filesys Oct 30 01:42:53 etc... Oct 30 01:43:14 but she doesnt use the phone and it would dumb to pay 4-500 for the phone to make free apps for folks Oct 30 01:43:28 hackbod: i think it's strange no ones run into this problem yet.. Parcelables seem to be a crucial part of th Service architecture Oct 30 01:46:23 ramblurr, could be Oct 30 01:46:41 from the error message it looks like the root "src" directory might be taken as the base of the path Oct 30 01:47:02 there is an arg to aapt to set the base path; maybe that is being set to the project dir instead of its inner src dir Oct 30 01:53:18 Did anybody else loose 3G icon in New York? I get E all day today Oct 30 01:53:43 s/loose/lose/ Oct 30 01:54:07 s/amazing/spellcheck Oct 30 01:55:10 yes, nyc - no 3g all day Oct 30 01:55:39 What gives? Oct 30 01:55:41 Do you know why Oct 30 01:55:57 no just noticed i've been on edge all day Oct 30 01:56:04 That's wierd Oct 30 01:56:08 You have G1 plan right? Oct 30 01:57:20 yeah Oct 30 01:57:36 That's... really wierd Oct 30 01:57:53 It would be halarious if we went over the BW cap of some sort Oct 30 01:57:57 Anyone in NY can confirm Oct 30 02:00:44 Yo Oct 30 02:00:44 http://forums.t-mobile.com/tmbl/board/message?board.id=87&thread.id=12832&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 Oct 30 02:02:42 pathetic Oct 30 02:06:06 that is lame Oct 30 02:07:31 hackbod: i've submitted a detailed bug report http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=1121 Oct 30 02:08:13 hackbod: what part of android do you work on? (/me assumed hackbod was an android dev) Oct 30 02:10:08 hackbod works on the framework Oct 30 02:10:22 that bug looks like it's for the tools team Oct 30 02:11:48 yea, it definitely is Oct 30 02:12:50 ment).ready() not $("#idhere").ready() Oct 30 02:13:08 whoops, stupid terminal. Oct 30 02:20:03 ramblurr, yeah i work on the framework (resources, activity manager, window manager, etc) Oct 30 02:28:20 time to go home, goodnight. Oct 30 02:28:27 hackbod: thanks for your help Oct 30 02:28:37 welcome! Oct 30 02:29:26 i wish the SDK image came with a better shell :) Oct 30 02:29:52 * jasta loads up busybox again Oct 30 02:29:57 jasta: you can't use the shell on the go again either can you? Oct 30 02:32:35 what? Oct 30 02:33:14 jasta: you cant use the adb shell when not tethered. Oct 30 02:34:13 im just talking about wanting a better shell to use Oct 30 02:34:16 for development Oct 30 02:34:19 one with tab completion and such :) Oct 30 02:34:28 jasta: heh, and i'm asking about the currently available shell :-O Oct 30 02:34:32 heh. Oct 30 02:35:45 yes, nyc - no 3g all day Oct 30 02:36:01 tmo has an alert on their 611 about it Oct 30 02:36:15 "issues in your market, may experience ..blah blah" Oct 30 02:43:22 jasta: you around? Oct 30 02:51:19 trigatch4: yup Oct 30 02:51:29 whats up? Oct 30 02:52:55 hey guys. looking for some help.. Oct 30 02:54:46 anyone knows how to update the contents of a ListView on resume ? Oct 30 02:54:57 what do you mean? Oct 30 02:55:59 when the Activity resumes, I want to remove certain items and add some. But right now, only new items are being added and old items are still there. Oct 30 02:56:11 how do you remove items? Oct 30 02:57:05 thats my question. Oct 30 02:57:16 ok... Oct 30 02:57:22 neerhaj: well, you control the adapter, so... Oct 30 02:57:30 it depends on the adapter you use Oct 30 02:59:30 i was thinking if onResume, i empty the ListView and then fill it up again , would that be efficient ? Oct 30 02:59:45 doesn't make a difference Oct 30 02:59:54 what adapter are you using? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Oct 30 02:59:57 2008