**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 07 02:59:57 2008 Nov 07 03:00:03 it seems to me a terrible format for mobile if you have to unzip the whole ebook Nov 07 03:00:07 spikebike, let me find the docs--you have to do something special Nov 07 03:00:16 just to show a couple hundred words at a time on the screen Nov 07 03:00:50 spikebike, http://code.google.com/android/intro/develop-and-debug.html#developingondevicehardware Nov 07 03:01:04 cool, thanks Nov 07 03:01:09 no problem Nov 07 03:01:23 spikebike: it worked just fine on hardy as well. I've got a hardy machine in the other room if you want me to confirm it Nov 07 03:01:41 ITechJunkie, I'm on one right now, stepping through breakpoints :) Nov 07 03:02:19 KNY: cool Nov 07 03:03:03 whoa cool, I didn't know you could long-press on keyboard keys for special characters Nov 07 03:03:04 gawd I hate the color scheme in the Term app Nov 07 03:06:49 you can change it to black on white Nov 07 03:07:20 JairunCaloth: talk to zhobbs. I bet if you tickle his nuts just right he might put more options in the next version. Nov 07 03:08:01 what's the android dev channel? Nov 07 03:08:02 good god who decided on a blue background? Nov 07 03:08:15 android-dev ? anddev? Nov 07 03:08:15 #android-dev Nov 07 03:08:17 thanks Nov 07 03:09:08 i see a world dominated by androids Nov 07 03:09:29 that'd be nice Nov 07 03:09:39 its such a beautiful thing Nov 07 03:09:50 it's the way cellphones should be Nov 07 03:09:58 sfuentes: for sure. Nov 07 03:10:07 open, SDKs, APIs Nov 07 03:10:07 yeah, when everything works Nov 07 03:10:09 * KNY sighs Nov 07 03:10:54 That's the terminal app from the source right, ITechJunkie Nov 07 03:11:10 iphone is based on freebsd, right? Nov 07 03:11:11 JairunCaloth: yeah Nov 07 03:11:20 sfuentes, it's based on OSX Nov 07 03:11:24 er no Nov 07 03:11:26 which is XNUX, IIRC Nov 07 03:11:40 OSX has the freebsd userspace Nov 07 03:11:44 but the kernel is unrelated Nov 07 03:11:45 yeah... I was just about to see if I could fix that, working on getting stuff setup for compiling apps Nov 07 03:11:48 ah Nov 07 03:11:50 JairunCaloth: I only modified the Manifest to be Market friendly and include a launcher icon Nov 07 03:11:51 mach kernel i believe Nov 07 03:12:16 well amusingly it was mach related but they have been making it less microkernel like by the day Nov 07 03:12:17 so iphone is free(mach)bsd Nov 07 03:12:28 I'm no developer, but I know enouh about programming that I *might* be able to adjust something like colors Nov 07 03:12:36 JairunCaloth, heh Nov 07 03:12:47 spikebike: interesting Nov 07 03:12:49 replace Color.BLUE with Color.BLACK Nov 07 03:13:03 sweet Nov 07 03:13:09 thanks for the link, it worked Nov 07 03:13:11 RC19 just worked Nov 07 03:13:16 RC29 didn't Nov 07 03:13:21 rc29 + tweak from that URL works Nov 07 03:13:28 spikebike, I'm glad Nov 07 03:13:32 I like it to be easy enough for my wife to use Nov 07 03:13:39 yeah Nov 07 03:13:43 pops fspot right up Nov 07 03:13:55 can anyone point me to the surface flinger and opengl stuff in the android source base? Nov 07 03:16:11 hey guys. now that android is jailbroken what would it take to make the screen shift based on accelerometer motions? Nov 07 03:16:28 what are some known bugs in Android?? Nov 07 03:16:35 ITechJunkie, jailbroken? Nov 07 03:16:38 it's open source... Nov 07 03:17:05 KNY: right but now we have root access and all Nov 07 03:17:10 and applications can respond to accelerometer--just a matter of setting android:screenOrientation="sensor" Nov 07 03:17:54 KNY er it needed jailbroken right up till we got root Nov 07 03:18:16 and may need to break root again Nov 07 03:18:22 KNY: how can one set that globally? Nov 07 03:18:33 I hope that tmo gods decide that it's harmless Nov 07 03:18:44 ITechJunkie, you can't Nov 07 03:19:05 spikebike: google alrewady announced theyre gonna patch it. Nov 07 03:19:25 booo Nov 07 03:19:40 well lets hope that currently rooted phones can manage to reflash /system themselves Nov 07 03:19:42 for real Nov 07 03:20:05 nokia relented and allowed root on the n770/n800/n810 Nov 07 03:20:34 spikebike: didn't know that. Nov 07 03:21:09 it's not really that clear what the big excitement is with getting root on android Nov 07 03:21:25 you can already run native code on it as a user Nov 07 03:21:35 but you're in a sandbox Nov 07 03:21:38 benley: allows more options for hackers Nov 07 03:21:40 (sort of) Nov 07 03:21:45 benley kinda frustrating to have the source and not be able to fix/improve/extend things Nov 07 03:21:52 it's super open... except you can't change shit Nov 07 03:21:58 KNY: so build yourself a terminal app that's granted whatever permissions you need Nov 07 03:22:00 almost iphone like Nov 07 03:22:08 example, now you can install apps to the flash Nov 07 03:22:13 Does something know that Android support WiFi WISPr? Nov 07 03:22:37 benley except for tweaking the network, or installing apps on a sd card, or fixing the compeltely broken mail client Nov 07 03:22:55 spikebike: but you can already build your own version of the broken mail client. Look at the k9 app in the market. Nov 07 03:23:09 or Have someone used WISPr before? Nov 07 03:24:39 can you delete the existing app? Nov 07 03:24:50 probably not, but you _can_ just not use it :-P Nov 07 03:24:59 right, but the storage is severly limited Nov 07 03:25:13 running apps from the SD card is a huge win, I agree. Nov 07 03:25:17 ITechJunkie: Looking through the mountd source the SD cards are mounted with options that specificly don't allow files to be set with executible permissions Nov 07 03:25:29 ... but running apps from fat32 is kinda assy Nov 07 03:25:36 tether is another big one Nov 07 03:26:30 JairunCaloth: but you can mount it with different options once you obtain root Nov 07 03:26:43 trying a different wifi driver for the kernel could be another big one Nov 07 03:27:16 yeah this is true Nov 07 03:27:18 and keep in mind that google's not stopped development Nov 07 03:27:30 I don't expect tmo to keep up with google Nov 07 03:28:00 I wonder how that's going to work out Nov 07 03:28:00 I'd like for instance to run sshd Nov 07 03:28:11 like, will google be spinning updates for the various carriers? Nov 07 03:28:13 JairunCaloth: don't take my word for it. i'm not a developer. I'm just a linux enthusist Nov 07 03:28:15 or will they do those themselves? Nov 07 03:28:31 dunno, it's up to the maker... Nov 07 03:28:41 right now tmo isn't being nearly as open as google Nov 07 03:28:47 ITechJunkie: yeah I've been playing with remounting it, but I haven't gotten it to let me set a file as executable Nov 07 03:28:48 sure, I just wonder how that's going to play out in practice. Nov 07 03:29:04 I expect that in the fullness of time you'll be able to buy a device that is as open as you want it to be :) Nov 07 03:29:17 n770/n800/n810 sell in decent volumes, is a relativelys imilar device and ships with an easy get root tweak Nov 07 03:29:40 benley I hopeso, in the mean time I'm going to try to keep root Nov 07 03:29:43 JairunCaloth: let me know how it goes man. I'm interested to find out more about how this works. Nov 07 03:30:53 spikebike: what if we implanted a backdoor so we could gain root again after google patches it? Nov 07 03:31:04 they reformat /system Nov 07 03:31:16 spikebike: oh Nov 07 03:31:18 * JairunCaloth will refuse to patch Nov 07 03:31:24 ln -s /system /fake-system? Nov 07 03:31:33 seems to me like refusing all future patches might be dumb Nov 07 03:31:48 KNY: good thinkin Nov 07 03:31:53 well since you're root, you can take the stuff you need out of the open source version, and install them yourself Nov 07 03:31:58 the appletv hackers figured out how to keep root between apple updates :) Nov 07 03:32:01 comes from the ramdisk/initrd Nov 07 03:32:07 / does Nov 07 03:32:14 so /system link will be overwritten Nov 07 03:32:30 ideally we can just keep root Nov 07 03:32:30 ah Nov 07 03:32:34 deny updates Nov 07 03:32:38 and roll our own Nov 07 03:32:51 by picking the pieces we want out of the google updates Nov 07 03:32:57 exactly Nov 07 03:33:30 the ability to flash is debatable Nov 07 03:33:39 and will take a brave soul to attempt Nov 07 03:33:43 spikebike: someone should assemble a team that cranks out a safe version of the patch after google releases them. Nov 07 03:34:00 ya Nov 07 03:34:11 spikebike: I don't doubt someone somewhere is working on that very thing right now Nov 07 03:34:18 indeed Nov 07 03:34:19 who has a lot more understanding and knowlege then I Nov 07 03:34:37 the tricky part is when we decide we like a newer kernel Nov 07 03:34:42 locking it down is IMO evil Nov 07 03:34:59 anywho... changeing the terminal colors seems to be trivial enough Nov 07 03:35:00 silly even Nov 07 03:35:15 they should have a recovery method to reinstall back to a supported image Nov 07 03:35:24 public static final int WHITE = 0xffffffff; Nov 07 03:35:24 public static final int BLACK = 0xff000000; Nov 07 03:35:24 public static final int BLUE = 0xff344ebd; Nov 07 03:36:17 nice Nov 07 03:37:34 I'm guessing the extra pair is black Nov 07 03:38:19 what extra pair? Nov 07 03:38:39 No, it's the alpha Nov 07 03:38:59 ah Nov 07 03:39:01 yeah, that's what I was about to say Nov 07 03:39:06 makes sense Nov 07 03:41:18 I haven't compiled any apps for android yet, how do you get them in the apk format? Nov 07 03:41:47 eclipse Nov 07 03:41:55 the SDK has a compiler Nov 07 03:43:04 or ant Nov 07 03:45:16 that too Nov 07 03:46:01 hi Nov 07 03:47:10 hello Nov 07 03:47:59 i unzipped my ebooks and now they work in fbreader Nov 07 03:48:02 hey, is there a way to delete an AIM account from the IM app? Nov 07 03:49:14 now just need offline html and a decent todo/organizer app and we're set Nov 07 03:49:18 dunno from aim. Nov 07 03:50:35 I want offline access to maps Nov 07 03:50:51 I'm hoping something like maemo mapper becomes available Nov 07 03:50:55 that would be nice Nov 07 03:51:56 I'm interested in playing with mtd0.img (dump of the mtd0 device... the boot device) but don't know much about initramfs. Anybody more experienced? Nov 07 03:52:04 hrm i also need a nyc subway map Nov 07 03:53:03 sjschultze, are you looking for #android-dev ? Nov 07 03:53:17 perhaps I am Nov 07 03:53:21 mtd0 is just some strings, there's no code in there. The main and recovery kernels are in mtd1 and mtd2, I think. Not sure which is which. Nov 07 03:54:07 ah, looks like boot is mtd2 Nov 07 03:54:23 but once I have the dump of it, what do I do to extract or mount it? Nov 07 03:54:41 could you mount it as a ramdisk? Nov 07 03:54:44 as I understand it, it's the kernel plus a cpio of the root filesystem Nov 07 03:55:38 Never played with that. No doubt the cpio archive (gziped?) is just a trailer on the file. Not sure how to find the offset, but you could probably check the configuration in the source kernel. Nov 07 03:55:45 wow... Nov 07 03:55:53 ubuntu's eclipse is woefully behind Nov 07 03:56:17 FWIW, I just got dumps using "adb shell su 'cat /dev/mtd/mtdn' > localfile" Nov 07 03:56:20 JairunCaloth: I have not had luck with that approach Nov 07 03:56:37 andyross: yeah, I did basically the same thing Nov 07 03:56:52 JairunCaloth, just download and extract the zip Nov 07 03:56:56 don't install eclipse from the rpo Nov 07 03:56:58 repo* Nov 07 03:57:09 so are you saying you'd have to figure out the offset, hack off the kernel part, and then unzip it as a cpio? Nov 07 03:57:37 Probably. This ain't word processin'. :) Nov 07 03:58:19 wastrel cool on fbreader, I suspect they will have a zip fix out soonish Nov 07 03:59:09 I'll have to track down where I was getting ebooks from Nov 07 04:14:11 jimp: so it's an input layer thing? I thought console was only the serial port in shipped g1's? Nov 07 04:14:42 so, anyone have problems with the G1 not downloading text messages? Nov 07 04:14:47 i get an option to 'download' Nov 07 04:14:47 but then I still haven't seen a /proc/cmdline /proc/config.gz Nov 07 04:14:50 but it never downloads Nov 07 04:15:32 at release they had said that defconfig was it, but there is stuff in there that is not in the g1's (can't remember what) Nov 07 04:16:01 I realize I get 50 or so a day from nagios when our devel guy plays around Nov 07 04:16:06 but srsly it should have no issues Nov 07 04:18:18 I not sure if this has already been mentioned, but google's pushing a patch for the telnet thing :/ Nov 07 04:18:44 telnetd or the whole root console thing? Nov 07 04:19:15 not sure, I'm not all the tech. http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/40063/140 Nov 07 04:19:45 and. http://www.android-portal.com/2008/11/06/google-looking-to-patch-t-mobile-g1-root-access-bug-in-upcoming-androi-update/ Nov 07 04:21:26 Yeah, that's predictable Nov 07 04:21:51 howdy Nov 07 04:21:59 hi mnj Nov 07 04:22:16 anyone work with ServerSockets on android yet? Nov 07 04:22:26 are they able to push the patch to owners who already have G1? Nov 07 04:23:16 Damm: are they MMS? Nov 07 04:23:24 I would assume, the updates are automatic OTA. unless you've somehow locked them out i assume Nov 07 04:23:25 ive had issues getting MMS messages for some reason, they keep failing Nov 07 04:23:45 umdk1d3, nope Nov 07 04:23:54 umdk1d3, straight up text messages from nagios. Nov 07 04:24:23 hmm i havent played with nagios specifiaclly, is it sending through an email address sms gateway? Nov 07 04:24:51 email address as a sms Nov 07 04:25:03 or atleast it should come as sms, doesn't appear to come as MMS Nov 07 04:25:53 have you guys used shazam? Nov 07 04:25:56 it's awesome! Nov 07 04:26:02 does it have a download button in the messaging app next to that message? Nov 07 04:26:08 g1er - yes, I have somehow locked them out Nov 07 04:26:21 and then says "message not downloaded" as a notifcation? Nov 07 04:26:40 umdk1d3, yes it does, and then tap downloaded, and barfs Nov 07 04:26:57 yea i was seeing that gui when someone sent me a MMS Nov 07 04:27:02 im still on rc19 Nov 07 04:27:03 ;/ Nov 07 04:27:14 elad, update to rc29 Nov 07 04:27:18 umdk1d3, :/ Nov 07 04:27:23 yeah I've had no luck with MMS Nov 07 04:27:36 tried to send a few, they never got it. Nov 07 04:27:39 Damm: when you say "barf" does it crash, or just fail with that notification+icon? Nov 07 04:27:54 fail with that notification Nov 07 04:28:00 delete the 'thread', and it works again. Nov 07 04:28:06 thread hits about 30 or so when it starts to fail Nov 07 04:28:09 hmm interesting Nov 07 04:28:15 are you using tmobile? Nov 07 04:28:23 yup Nov 07 04:28:41 yea i have one about 10msgs into a thread that fails Nov 07 04:28:46 ive actully never had one work lol Nov 07 04:29:07 that figures Nov 07 04:29:14 figured it was a carrier issue, because the person sent it to me from an att phone Nov 07 04:29:32 jesus my plan is 5k minutes/month? Nov 07 04:29:35 * Damm sighs. Nov 07 04:29:51 trying to see how many text messages vs. mms Nov 07 04:30:06 is there any concensus or common trend in what people are doing to avoid losing root when an update comes? Nov 07 04:30:07 i never did get that--do they try billing separately for mms? Nov 07 04:30:30 gah Nov 07 04:31:00 I posted one technique here: http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Preventing_OTA_Updates Nov 07 04:31:42 Another one, of course, is to modify the recovery.img to only take things that you sign yourself - but that's a bit harder to explain Nov 07 04:31:44 RyeBrye, it'll be interesting to know if that works. Nov 07 04:32:05 Damm - it does work - spikebike did it on his rc19 phone and it just sat there spinning the wheels on the download for RC29 Nov 07 04:33:08 hey what are some known bugs in Android? Nov 07 04:33:26 i've heard people talk about them but what are they? Nov 07 04:33:34 Sorium, more like what are the known working things Nov 07 04:33:34 j/k Nov 07 04:33:41 RyeBrye: I think the command should be otacerts, not otakeys Nov 07 04:33:56 what i mean is this: does the phone book glitch? does text msg randomly delete messages? Nov 07 04:33:58 well #MIN# fails Nov 07 04:34:07 i've read all of these things but want to know whats the truth Nov 07 04:34:14 Sorium, when the message thread is too big it'll fail. Nov 07 04:34:22 I hit about 30 nagios messages and it starts to throw a fit Nov 07 04:34:26 delete the thread and it's fine Nov 07 04:34:33 RC29's pretty darn stable to me Nov 07 04:34:43 ah interesting Nov 07 04:35:02 RC19 was a crashhappy pos Nov 07 04:35:08 com.android.phone crashed on me 2-3x a day Nov 07 04:35:39 but RC29 has been pretty darn awesome... haven't had it crash yet Nov 07 04:35:43 since last saturday Nov 07 04:35:44 Where is the rc29 download located? Nov 07 04:36:09 check out android-dls.com or forum.xda-developer.com Nov 07 04:39:35 does Rc29 automatically DL to the G1? Nov 07 04:40:15 dam how big is rc29 Nov 07 04:40:37 44 megs Nov 07 04:46:56 interesting its saying: cant mount /dev/block/mmcblk0p1 Nov 07 04:47:11 who was it that built the term app? Nov 07 04:53:00 * swetland yawns Nov 07 04:53:30 * jbq_ yawns too. it's soon gonna be time to sleep. Nov 07 04:54:06 elad, right, you have to partiton your sd card properly. Nov 07 04:54:11 elad, if you run fdisk that's easy Nov 07 04:54:16 err linux Nov 07 04:54:24 no clue how to fix it in windows Nov 07 04:55:17 damm: think you can use the manage computer / manage disks or local disks or whatever Nov 07 04:55:33 I figured it out once Nov 07 04:56:40 I am making progress on extracting mtd2 but running stuck on a couple of things... anyone interested in helping me troubleshoot? Nov 07 04:59:23 wassssssup Nov 07 05:00:13 http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Building_the_HTC_Dream_Platform - for anyone wanting to build the platform Nov 07 05:00:19 sjschultze - how are you getting stuck? Nov 07 05:00:55 I grabbed the image by catting mtd2, then I opened it in a hex editor and found what looks to be the start of a gzip, and saved just that portion to a .gz Nov 07 05:01:03 gzip will unzip that and complain about junk at the end Nov 07 05:01:31 rye: all the bits for the new libaudio stuff should be online tomrrow, at which point you shouldn't have to pull libaudio.so from the device Nov 07 05:01:41 and looking at that, it looks like a cpio file but cpio won't extract it... complains about end of tape or something Nov 07 05:02:01 swetland - thanks... I'll update that then :) Nov 07 05:02:01 sjschultze: it's a boot.img Nov 07 05:02:33 http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/system/core.git;a=tree;f=mkbootimg;h=15d514046e4dbe26bdb33a199c91367869bc257e;hb=master Nov 07 05:03:18 ah, ok beginning to understand Nov 07 05:06:04 so I see that mkbootimg will create boot.img for me... but is there a reverse tool that takes an existing boot.img and pulls it apart into kernel and file tree (which I could edit and then glue back together)? Nov 07 05:06:16 or is that task left to the reader? Nov 07 05:07:32 I think it's called unpacking usually if youw ant to search for info on how to do it Nov 07 05:07:49 so ServerSocket is busted on android, wont work? Nov 07 05:08:14 anyone using it in their app? Nov 07 05:10:55 sj: there is not a reverse tool (we've never really needed such a thing) Nov 07 05:11:57 it's a really simple file format though Nov 07 05:11:59 michaelnovakjr_: I'm using it Nov 07 05:12:05 michaelnovakjr_: that's how HierarchyViewer works Nov 07 05:12:13 hm Nov 07 05:12:14 and there's nothing wrong with ServerSocket in my experience Nov 07 05:12:28 romainguy_ i'm getting a permissions do not allow access on socket Nov 07 05:12:36 action not acces Nov 07 05:12:41 even with INTERNET permission? Nov 07 05:12:45 yep Nov 07 05:12:50 are you trying to use a port numbre < 1024? Nov 07 05:13:07 swetland: yea... not allowed? Nov 07 05:13:21 not as a regular user (which apps run as) Nov 07 05:13:26 where the hell is android.os.Exec Nov 07 05:13:38 somebody was asking me about providing a way for apps to bind to "reserved" ports the other day Nov 07 05:13:51 it's on the "we should do that" list for the platform Nov 07 05:13:52 swetland: so you find the appropriate place to split it and then gunzip, edit, gzip, cat? Nov 07 05:13:58 swetland: good to know Nov 07 05:14:25 or, replace cat with mkbootimg? Nov 07 05:14:34 well gunzip and cpio for the ramdisk Nov 07 05:14:49 michaelrnovak: only root can listen on ports < 1024 Nov 07 05:14:57 the kernel is 1. a self-unzipping binary and 2. build from source you have access to, so unzippping it doesn't do much that's interesting Nov 07 05:15:11 romainguy_: yea, that would be the cause Nov 07 05:15:32 romain: yah, I'd like to set up some service so we could have permissions for apps to bind to various reserved ports Nov 07 05:15:41 that sounds like a nice idea Nov 07 05:15:44 it would be nice Nov 07 05:15:51 could different ways we could do it Nov 07 05:15:54 http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/meebo_android_im_multitasking.php Nov 07 05:16:07 all dvm apps run as one process now? Nov 07 05:16:32 romain: nifty Nov 07 05:16:52 tmzt: most all dvm apps run in their own processes Nov 07 05:17:08 a couple of the long-lived system apps/services run in shared processes to reduce memory pressure Nov 07 05:17:26 for instance contacts and Home (and some other stuff) share the process called "acore" Nov 07 05:17:34 RyeBrye, the wiki is coming along nicely Nov 07 05:18:06 you would have to have a vm api to start a new vm under a root permission process that would fork off a vm that could listen on priv ports? Nov 07 05:18:30 jasta: ping Nov 07 05:18:32 (sorry, even saying that confuses me) Nov 07 05:19:03 swetland: and assuming I hack off the ramdisk appropriately from the end (starting from 1F 8B in my hex editor), I'll be left with the pure kernel that I can just mkbootimg back together with my edited ramdisk? Nov 07 05:19:12 I believe currently the rules for asking zygote to start a new instance are: Nov 07 05:19:21 - root may ask for a vm running as any user Nov 07 05:19:30 - system server may ask for a vm running as any user >= 1000 Nov 07 05:19:39 s/system_server/system/ Nov 07 05:19:52 - anybody else may only ask for a vm running as their uid Nov 07 05:20:25 sj: assuming you also drop the 2k header, yah Nov 07 05:21:06 ah, there's a 2k header on the front of the whole file? Nov 07 05:21:22 so if I wanted run, say, jigsaw (if thats still around) on port 80, that would make sense, but I'm just wondering how a new listening thread or something could gain a perimssion the parent vm doesn't have? Nov 07 05:21:45 tmzt: there's not really a way Nov 07 05:21:50 swetland: http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=1207 :) Nov 07 05:21:57 or do you mean between the kernel and the ramdisk in the original boot.img? Nov 07 05:22:05 we'd either have to modify the kernel to use a different model for restricting reserved ports (similar to the inet/bt perms) Nov 07 05:22:31 or we'd have to have a service running as root that would open the socket and pass it to the requesting app (if the app had the appropriate permission(s)) Nov 07 05:23:12 sj: the boot.img has a 2kb header, followed by a kernel, a ramdisk, and (optionally) a second stage bootloader Nov 07 05:23:15 http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/system/core.git;a=blob;f=mkbootimg/bootimg.h;h=242ab35db82be002005dbd3ce51e34dd7404d8e0;hb=master Nov 07 05:23:27 there's even a little ascii art diagram there ^^ Nov 07 05:23:44 ah yes, so there is Nov 07 05:24:05 where might I find information on the release notes for the upgrade? Nov 07 05:24:37 romain: well they finally sorted out what was going on there Nov 07 05:25:18 swetland: personally, I'd prefer a design where there's a permission around the low socket. It seems to me that it involves fewer modules, so there are fewer risks of something going wrong. Nov 07 05:26:00 jbq: it is in fact simpler, though it doesn't allow you to be specific about which low sockets you provide access too Nov 07 05:26:12 well, I just never understood why classloader couldn't bring in a jvm .class over the wire for something like jini, which defeated the whole bytecode thing in the first place. now with something like PolicyKit with its dbus ipc and small privleged processes that do only one thing, they've ended up mapping every thing you could ever do as root on a unix system to an api. for a really secure system, you could actually prevent sysc Nov 07 05:26:13 it would be nice for some apps Nov 07 05:26:24 (if you want to have the user know that the app is using port 80 or 25 or whatnot) Nov 07 05:26:37 and any reason I should be paranoid about trying to do this in order to edit init.rc and then loading it back onto my device? I can always rescue, as I understand it. Nov 07 05:26:53 swetland: some apps it would be useful to have access to under port <1024 Nov 07 05:27:01 definitely Nov 07 05:27:09 it's just a matter of how to present that permission to the user Nov 07 05:27:13 yea Nov 07 05:27:14 and how fine grained it would be Nov 07 05:27:15 definitely Nov 07 05:27:21 whats up with googles version of terminal, cant do shit with it Nov 07 05:27:34 swetland: on the other hand, if we go too fine-grained, users will trivialize the notion of permissions and accept everything without looking, which ruins the purpose of the entire permission system. Nov 07 05:27:45 swetland: i was looking to write an IRC client, but the ident request comes in on 113 Nov 07 05:27:48 am: it runs /system/bin/sh in a vt100 emulator. what else do you want? ^^ Nov 07 05:28:02 jbq: yup. always tradeoffs Nov 07 05:28:05 through jni or java.io ? Nov 07 05:28:17 ouch, no ident on irc would be bad for some networks Nov 07 05:28:33 I can't imagine why anyone cares about ident anymore for irc Nov 07 05:28:43 swetland: its used :( Nov 07 05:28:52 since the bulk of users are using personal computers Nov 07 05:28:56 huh, will that even work with gprs proxied? Nov 07 05:28:57 yea Nov 07 05:29:18 hell, a couple years ago, I got booted off some network because a friend and I were both running irssi on the same machine Nov 07 05:29:27 haha Nov 07 05:29:44 swetland: wow, that's dumb as fuck. Nov 07 05:30:09 swetland: was it really worth the effort to track you down? Nov 07 05:30:38 without access to 113 the connect at least to freenode dies Nov 07 05:30:58 swetland, i agree and wish they would get rid of it, but some networks (fucknet as i refer to them) still require it sometimes Nov 07 05:31:35 DarkriftX: yea, that's the problem i ran into Nov 07 05:31:48 we need a movement to rid the world of ident Nov 07 05:32:04 i guess not adding ident support in irc apps would be a good start Nov 07 05:32:12 they start losing users they might rethink it Nov 07 05:32:50 it would have been nice if it worked :) Nov 07 05:32:51 and I had to explain the concept of multiuser machines to some kid Nov 07 05:32:51 who totall didn't believe me and thought I was running some kind of bot ^^ Nov 07 05:32:58 haha Nov 07 05:33:00 moron Nov 07 05:36:19 so is there currently a way to get a root shell from the phone without having to telnet into it from a remote computer? Nov 07 05:36:27 well, i'd atleast appreciate access to port 113 :) Nov 07 05:36:28 ya Nov 07 05:36:35 i bet a command line pdf viewer would be useful for some ppl Nov 07 05:36:40 install telnet and you can telnet into yourself ;-) Nov 07 05:39:31 anyone here takin public speaking lessons Nov 07 05:40:08 huh? Nov 07 05:40:22 sorry REALLY off topic question Nov 07 05:40:47 uh yep Nov 07 05:41:06 * ttuttle suggests #android-publicspeaking Nov 07 05:41:20 zhobbs: you around? Nov 07 05:42:37 * michaelrnovak is pissed off at freenode Nov 07 05:43:04 haha Nov 07 05:45:39 spikebike, telnet into yourself using what app? Nov 07 05:45:45 Android = javaPopularity ++; Nov 07 05:46:05 and java syntax knowledge decreases? Nov 07 05:46:19 wow that was really bad syntax Nov 07 05:46:19 (not currently taking public speaking) Nov 07 05:46:34 wait, no thats postincrement Nov 07 05:46:44 better than dice.com Nov 07 05:47:14 DarkriftX er... telnet Nov 07 05:47:50 erm.... Nov 07 05:48:17 ok, start pterminal, start telnetd then you have an app called telnet to open to connect to the telnetd daemon? Nov 07 05:49:49 has anyone figured out how to read or write the format of logo.rle? I've tried everything, including gimp and ImageMagick Nov 07 05:50:43 not sure, but really old paintbrush? Nov 07 05:50:51 well rle is a type of bitmap compression Nov 07 05:50:55 ya pterminal -> telnetd then telnet localhost Nov 07 05:51:17 right, but all the image programs that supposedly support it won't read it Nov 07 05:51:38 and rle is run length encoding, which can be almost any set of compression primitives that use that method Nov 07 05:51:47 Darkriftx, telnetd = on phone. telnet from another machine, you can telnet from the phone to the phone. if thats what your trying to do. Nov 07 05:51:57 cant* telnet from phone to phone Nov 07 05:52:38 im wanting to get a root shell via the phone itself Nov 07 05:53:01 there is a telnet app in the market Nov 07 05:53:08 I dont think thats possible right now Nov 07 05:53:13 Write an application that prompts the user to type "telnetd\r" and then connects to 127.0.0.1:23 Nov 07 05:53:18 ok, thats what i was asking Nov 07 05:53:18 so presumably you can telnet to 127.0.0.1. although I haven't tried it. Nov 07 05:54:54 ive found some .apk files that dont properly install and have read around that its possible they could be built on an older SDK. Anyone know if this is a truth, will some apps just not run due to this? Nov 07 05:56:01 I used the Term program on the phone to both start telnetd and to also connect to it Nov 07 05:56:26 connect with what command? Nov 07 05:56:42 Easiest mechanism by far is just adb port forwarding and the telnet client on your linux box. Nov 07 05:57:30 * fadden0 sticks his head out of the hole, doesn't see his shadow, goes back to Fallout 3 Nov 07 05:57:51 I should play some more fallout 3 Nov 07 05:58:05 this week has involved not nearly enough fallout 3 Nov 07 05:58:43 telnet 127.0.0.1 ? Nov 07 05:58:58 sjschultze: http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/build.git;a=tree;f=tools/rgb2565;h=aa8e6dd23f17887e39ffd731b42c0eb6317bf867;hb=master Nov 07 05:59:13 swetland: i agree Nov 07 05:59:19 "adb forward tcp:XXXX tcp:23; telnet localhost XXXX" Nov 07 05:59:24 swetland - once the libaudio stuff is in tomorrow, should I uncomment out the stuff inthe local_manifests to get the msm7k stuff to build the libaudio? Nov 07 05:59:48 oh, that would have been helpful dumping kaiser screen, well 5652rgb would be Nov 07 05:59:48 rye: actually it's all in now except for a new prebuilt kernel Nov 07 05:59:58 swetland: do you know everything? Nov 07 06:00:08 sjshultze: no Nov 07 06:00:18 * RyeBrye disagrees. Swetland DOES in fact know everything Nov 07 06:00:20 (or I could just learn the bin math stuff and write one) Nov 07 06:00:49 but the answers to *almost* every question about "how does on g1 work" is in the source code on android.git.kernel.org Nov 07 06:00:51 swetland - so do I need the msm7k or does the htc_dream stuff work by itself wihtout needing libaudio? Nov 07 06:01:14 (questions not readily answered involve radio firmware, the htc bootloader, and a couple proprietary libraries like libqcamera, libhgl) Nov 07 06:01:29 rye: you definitely will want hardware/msm7k Nov 07 06:01:37 yeah, but I thought logo was in bl anyway Nov 07 06:01:49 msm7k is generic support for msm7k platforms Nov 07 06:01:57 vendor/htc/dream is specific configuration and support for g1 Nov 07 06:02:27 swetland does not know combination to safe Nov 07 06:02:49 safe contains less that 250 lines of source code and is emptied nightly Nov 07 06:02:52 On the subject of those irreadily answered questions: is there *any* public documentation available on the GPU? The closest I've found are some powerpoints about OpenGL on Brew. Nov 07 06:03:14 andyross: sadly, not that I know of Nov 07 06:03:22 Figured. Nov 07 06:03:31 using the opengl get features apis you can get a fair bit of info about what the hw supports Nov 07 06:03:48 I'm working on a project to install an Nvidia 8800 in my G1... I'm halfway there ;) Nov 07 06:04:05 how's the pcie going? Nov 07 06:04:10 That's the half I haven't done yet Nov 07 06:04:15 we had some notes on optimizing for the gpu in msm7k. I'll poke the graphics guy and see if we can get those tidied up and published somewhere Nov 07 06:04:19 Yeah, and I can benchmark stuff to explore. But there are a few extensions exposed that don't have docs, and absolutely nothing about the overall hardware architecture. Nov 07 06:06:07 andy: sent some folks an email about gpu stuff Nov 07 06:06:16 how can i find out what port is in use when downloading from the market. When my firewall is enabled i cant download on my wireless connection. Nov 07 06:06:29 Has anyone worked on xen virtualization for the G1 yet? I want to run a couple of colocation servers on my phone Nov 07 06:06:30 andyross: well, some articles on 8k suggest 7k is fixed-pipeline? Nov 07 06:06:44 RyeBrye heh Nov 07 06:06:53 kvm-arm Nov 07 06:07:05 but you need to patch kernel Nov 07 06:07:15 * RyeBrye is to afraid to touch the kernel Nov 07 06:07:40 * RyeBrye is afraid the HTC bootloader might look for a signed kernel, and touching kernel could auto-brick the phone Nov 07 06:08:09 yes, so could ddXX anything to /dev/mtd2, as posted earlier Nov 07 06:08:09 Yeah, I got that far. It's an ATI core. It has two texture units. Does hardware T&L under most circumstances (for frustratingly ambiguous definitions of "most"). Dunno if the innards are floating point or not. Dunno about dedicated framebuffer memory (but it exposes VBOs, which only make sense in a NUMA context...) Nov 07 06:08:56 tmzt: I don't think that will work. You need to use the flash util (although I have not tried it yet) Nov 07 06:09:22 RyeBrye: thinking about this, the recovery partition is itself a kernel/initrd. Surely a failed boot from the main kernel would just fallback to the recovery mode? Not that I'm about to try it, mind you. But I can't imagine why else there would be two full bootable kernels. Nov 07 06:09:40 I know, I just read that earlier (and I think someone tried it), that would only write ones to the nand?? at very least you would have to mtdXX erase it first Nov 07 06:10:02 /dev/zero Nov 07 06:10:14 andyross - I know with reasonable certainty that the recovery image can be replaced Nov 07 06:10:23 andy: you are quite correct Nov 07 06:10:45 tmzt: yes, you have to /dev/zero it first Nov 07 06:11:07 the flash util is pretty simple if you look at the code for it Nov 07 06:11:15 Right. So the sane mode would be to leave the recovery kernel in place and reflash the main one, using the sdcard update mechanism to recover a broken boot. Again, I'm not about to try it. :) Nov 07 06:11:56 Well... I'd replace the recovery kernel from the main one first - and then verify that my recovery is working properly - because if recovery fails you can get back to the main one and re-tool the recovery Nov 07 06:12:15 I want to only put stuff on that I sign myself - because I trust myself Nov 07 06:12:19 as a favor to everyone who wants more open phones in the future, avoiding flooding tmo with a bunch of returns of mysteriously failed phones would be a plus ^^ Nov 07 06:12:37 great idea Nov 07 06:12:39 swetland - yes, excellent point Nov 07 06:12:40 there is a key combination to get into recovery? I would worry about a kernel starting to boot and then that fall back not working Nov 07 06:12:54 especially since it's not all that hard to differentiate between a typical flash failure and somebody playing impressive games with their filesystem and boot partition Nov 07 06:13:03 but think about ti this way. if they were more open, there woudl be less chance of bricking Nov 07 06:13:16 tmzt: the forums say power+home Nov 07 06:13:24 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=442831 Nov 07 06:13:38 oh, that's not for the sulogin mode? Nov 07 06:13:40 dark: you might think that way, but in my experience that is not quite how major cellular carriers think, typically Nov 07 06:13:50 I was about to write the same. Nov 07 06:14:02 sjschultze and tmzt http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Boot_Modifiers Nov 07 06:14:37 A carrier would think "those people hacked phones, cost us money to support them and replace the phones, let's be sure to lock them out harder next time". Nov 07 06:15:04 sad Nov 07 06:15:13 if only they could be as clued as linksys or nokia Nov 07 06:15:13 which is why there is iTunes, the magic universal problem solving tool Nov 07 06:15:20 (for iPhone) Nov 07 06:15:22 in any case, for whatever it's worth, there are people who are arguing for more rather than less open hardware (I am one of them), but the industry is slow to change Nov 07 06:15:44 we can tell swetland Nov 07 06:15:48 what is "bootloader mode"? Nov 07 06:16:03 you are more likely to warn us then tell us not to do something Nov 07 06:16:18 well there's not a lot of point in telling you not to do something Nov 07 06:16:27 as I doubt you'd seriously listen to me ^^ Nov 07 06:16:33 which is natural Nov 07 06:16:43 sjschultze, bootloader mode is what most htc phones have that tmobile locked up.. normally lets you reflash the whole phone from an image Nov 07 06:17:09 A lot of it is just technical ignorance and fear. Carriers are, after all, phone companies. I dealt closely with one major wireless company in a previous job, it really wasn't pretty. Nov 07 06:17:19 DarkriftX - Well... that image is usually a signed image Nov 07 06:18:05 back to andyross' point, I think that if you were going to update one of the boot images you would want to do the main one Nov 07 06:18:12 so you could recover from the recovery image Nov 07 06:18:27 It's an either / or Nov 07 06:18:39 if you screw the recovery, you can still kick out and boot to the main Nov 07 06:18:42 if you can reflash the recovery back to normal, id rather mess with that Nov 07 06:19:12 and I'd rather use recovery to reflash my main one than doing it in the OS itself Nov 07 06:19:14 thats like saying "id rather screw up my computer then my recovery discs" Nov 07 06:19:25 but how do you know if you've screwed the recovery until you boot to it? And how do you boot into recovery? Nov 07 06:19:32 hold down power + home Nov 07 06:19:33 power+home Nov 07 06:19:38 http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Boot_Modifiers Nov 07 06:19:38 lol Nov 07 06:19:44 I added some too it Nov 07 06:19:45 no, that just gives you the tool Nov 07 06:19:49 I guess it's a taste issue. But the idea of flashing *both* the vendor kernels gives me the willies. :) Nov 07 06:20:16 from the screen you get with power+home I don't see how to actually boot from that partition Nov 07 06:20:29 You are booted from that partition when you see that scren Nov 07 06:20:33 id like some images for that page RyeBrye but its hard to take screenshots from there lol Nov 07 06:20:53 Yeah, I nkow - I don't think adb screencapture2 or whatever works before the phone is booted... :) Nov 07 06:21:01 sjschultze, you dont boot from it Nov 07 06:21:15 you reflash an update file to recover your system Nov 07 06:21:27 its not like a second system, its just there to flash an image to fix a fuckup Nov 07 06:21:34 right, so the only way to test your recovery image is to flash it into the main image Nov 07 06:21:57 which blows away your main image, which you don't want to do until you know the new one works Nov 07 06:22:00 RyeBrye: is it a linux image then, the recovery option? the recovery is done from linux? Nov 07 06:22:08 Yes, it is Nov 07 06:22:09 afaik Nov 07 06:22:11 RyeBrye: and not the bootloader Nov 07 06:22:13 crap my phone and 3 friends got an update 2 days ago to RC29 Nov 07 06:22:17 No, the bootloader is HTC's crap Nov 07 06:22:23 my wife's phone is still RC19 8-( Nov 07 06:23:48 spikebike: Grab the sdcard update file and update her manually. Nov 07 06:23:59 or just wait for the update... Nov 07 06:24:01 ya, that's getting more tempting Nov 07 06:24:01 there's no rush Nov 07 06:24:02 What is the bluelight special, btw? Nov 07 06:24:11 (trackball + power) ? Nov 07 06:24:15 I wish I slurped a copy when I had it Nov 07 06:24:24 I suspect it's been erased post use Nov 07 06:24:28 spikebike: just wait for it Nov 07 06:24:31 seriously :) Nov 07 06:24:53 they aren't pushing out RC30 stuff yet are they? Nov 07 06:25:00 or fixed RC29's? Nov 07 06:25:27 But... http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=USB_Notification the USB notifications! :) Nov 07 06:25:49 I fought hard for the usb notification! Nov 07 06:25:55 * RyeBrye is glad Nov 07 06:26:07 though I wish I had noticed they made it audiable Nov 07 06:26:08 spikebike, i have them all hosted on my site lol Nov 07 06:26:12 Every update should add a new notification :) Nov 07 06:26:13 what is usb notification, what's it for? Nov 07 06:26:15 that's a little annoying ^^ Nov 07 06:26:39 tmzt before rc29 by default the device would go into usb mass storage mode (making /sdcard unavailable to apps) whenever you plugged in usb Nov 07 06:26:39 tmzt - lets you mount your phone as a storage device easily Nov 07 06:26:40 tmzt to ask if you want to mount the storage or not Nov 07 06:26:40 That is a fantastic feature, it should be noted. Although whoever decided to put tech jargon in the UI should be shot ("Mount"? You're kidding, right? Even windows geeks don't know that one) Nov 07 06:26:51 swetland, anyone got a lsit of what changed in each update? i need more info for that part of the wiki Nov 07 06:26:57 after rc29 it puts up a notification that lets you turn that mode on if you like (less disruptive) Nov 07 06:27:00 or romainguy_, didnt notice you here Nov 07 06:27:07 tmzt -> screenshots here: http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=USB_Notification Nov 07 06:27:09 OS X uses mount Nov 07 06:27:09 dark: dunno if there are public changelists anywhere Nov 07 06:27:14 there *should* be. Nov 07 06:27:23 I remember seeing a changelog from T=Mobile Nov 07 06:27:26 on their forums I think Nov 07 06:27:26 even something general Nov 07 06:27:41 yeah, i saw it but it was pretty.... um.... useless Nov 07 06:27:56 T-mobile also said that if you updated stuff from the SDCard when the OTA update came down your phone's chimney, it would find the cookies already eaten and piss on your carpet Nov 07 06:27:57 there wasn't much in the update really Nov 07 06:28:05 "fixed bootloader, fixed operating system, fixed other things" Nov 07 06:28:06 if we push out new features, you'll know :) Nov 07 06:28:11 Their forums aren't exactly tech-savvy in my experience Nov 07 06:28:36 someone write a flash app for the web browser :-p Nov 07 06:28:39 rye: what? I'll have you know that the recovery system is completely housebroken and we haven't had any issues of soiled carpets for months Nov 07 06:28:48 yeah, so that's one of those phone things about linux. if a file is in use (open fd) you can't unmount so you have to be very careful about what opens files on your shared block target device Nov 07 06:28:54 tmo doesnt know that swetland Nov 07 06:29:03 ah, carriers Nov 07 06:29:09 swetland - yeah, the post was "Don't do the SDCard update - because the update will get pushed to your phone OTA and it might break stuff if it's already been done." Nov 07 06:29:10 I guess the only alternative for windows is mtp/ptp and mtp is only for wma? Nov 07 06:29:17 anybody knows how can I get a "*" number for USA? Nov 07 06:29:19 they generally don't let me talk to carriers, for which I am actually happy Nov 07 06:29:23 I mean, windows media devices Nov 07 06:29:28 a SMS gateway Nov 07 06:29:35 * andyross actually quit a job because he kept having to talk to carriers. :) Nov 07 06:29:47 lol Nov 07 06:29:50 ignaciogggg - you want a shortcode for SMS? Nov 07 06:29:58 yes Rye Nov 07 06:30:08 ignaciogggg - you have to pay a shitload of money - up front - and wait about 12 weeks to provision one Nov 07 06:30:19 andyross: after danger I swore I would never do another cellular device Nov 07 06:30:24 sadly, I am easily tricked Nov 07 06:30:33 That didn't go too well did it, Brian Nov 07 06:30:40 no, no it didn't Nov 07 06:30:43 I saw some where they give you the number and they get comission for each message Nov 07 06:30:47 I loved the device work (well, not symbian). It was the customer relations and travel that got to me. Nov 07 06:30:58 ignaciogggg - http://celltrust.com/Products/SMS-Gateway/CellTrust-ShortCode.html that talks about the process Nov 07 06:31:16 ignaciogggg - you want to charge for each message? Are you just doing outbound or 2-way? Nov 07 06:31:17 great link! Nov 07 06:31:42 I will not charge, just outbound Nov 07 06:31:45 ignaciogggg - the people will tell you, however, that at the end of the year there is a backlog - so they kind of dont' process stuff Nov 07 06:31:58 ignaciogggg - you can get by with a shared shortcode, which is much cheaper Nov 07 06:32:08 I left my previous job in the mobile industry to join google hoping to work on something else... and I ended up in the Android team. Ah, the irony. BTW, I love it, it's everything that I've wanted to see in a cell phone and then some. Nov 07 06:32:10 ignaciogggg - celltrust.com has them, or clickatell.com, or numerous others have various options Nov 07 06:32:25 oh, yes, clickatell, I checked it before Nov 07 06:32:44 jbq - I did something similar... I quit my job today so I could spend my day using google on my cellphone. Nov 07 06:32:50 * RyeBrye is kidding... he's still employed Nov 07 06:32:52 shared shortcode? Mhh.... no, the number is the "key" for my project Nov 07 06:32:54 i love android also, the version that has had tmo's handcuffs removed that is Nov 07 06:33:10 ya, google's been exemplary Nov 07 06:33:22 alas tmo's trying to ship a phone as locked down as any other smartphone Nov 07 06:33:25 google needs to buy tmo so we can stop this bullshit Nov 07 06:33:29 heh Nov 07 06:33:30 get on that swetland Nov 07 06:33:43 or just ship a whitespace capable phone and skip the carrier ;-) Nov 07 06:33:55 heh Nov 07 06:34:12 not getting the magx->android thing though, they must have had no native apps at all? Nov 07 06:34:12 imagine a g1 that was sold unlocked for at&t/tmo Nov 07 06:34:37 Deutsche Telekom (T-mobile's daddy) has a market cap of $78B Nov 07 06:34:58 But even if Sergey decided "Hey, why not" - it might kill android if Google owned a cell phone carrier Nov 07 06:35:19 'cause... I think the OHA might be a little concerned with conflict of interest Nov 07 06:35:47 some oha members have a conflict already Nov 07 06:36:02 google should buy them all out Nov 07 06:36:06 they will anyways one of these days Nov 07 06:36:18 google buys everything it gets close to Nov 07 06:36:28 Is Google Earth for Android under development, BTW? Nov 07 06:37:14 I have to say, I expected that we'd end up with a local root exploit eventually, but this was very much not the way I'd expected to see it work Nov 07 06:37:15 a version that did the night sky similar to the "compass mode" on street view - but had constellations labeled and such would be awesome Nov 07 06:37:35 RyeBrye: oh that would ROCK :) Nov 07 06:37:37 RyeBrye: /me thought about writing that while I was at Google, but never got around it. Nov 07 06:37:41 *to it Nov 07 06:37:42 speaking of which Nov 07 06:37:48 can the compass be calibrated? Nov 07 06:37:57 spikebike - yes - wave your arms like a crazy monkey Nov 07 06:37:58 mine is 5-10 degrees off on each axis Nov 07 06:38:14 it's in the nand somewhere Nov 07 06:38:18 spikebike - if oyu do adb logcat and open up orienteer you can see it spitting out messages about the compass needing calibration Nov 07 06:38:26 cool Nov 07 06:38:42 if you move it around in figure-8's in different axises for a while it will stop saying that and it will seem much more accurate Nov 07 06:38:59 I used my compass + connetbot to help me aim the antenna in my attic Nov 07 06:39:05 spikebike - yes - wave your arms like a crazy monkey <---- technical slang for compass alignment Nov 07 06:39:10 spikebike: the math behind the compass is inaccurate when both roll and pitch are non-zero. On top of that it doesn't compensate for the magnetic declination. Nov 07 06:39:23 RyeBrye: using a hdhomerun for snr readings? =D Nov 07 06:39:27 because there's no gps? huh? Nov 07 06:39:27 yes :) Nov 07 06:39:34 awesome <3 hdhomerun Nov 07 06:39:38 er, not sure if it's the compass or the acceleration sensor Nov 07 06:40:00 Yeah, HDHR rules - and digital snr and snq readings sure beats "Hey, honey - do you see any ghosts?" when you are doing antenna adjustments Nov 07 06:40:10 probably the compass. the acceleration sensor has no calibration. Nov 07 06:40:37 not to mention they LGPL'ed their entire stack =D Nov 07 06:40:47 so its easy to write libs to do fun stuff Nov 07 06:40:58 *client side stack Nov 07 06:41:09 I THOUGHT briefly about writing an app that would connect to antennaweb.org and get antenna info based on GPS location - then show a compass showing you how to orient it and would also connect and do the hdhomerun_config comands to get the readings - but... then I realized that only about 3 people would ever use it :) Nov 07 06:41:15 so what is this telnet app that gives you a root shel? Nov 07 06:41:35 ryebrye dunno Nov 07 06:41:38 umdk1d3 - yeah, it is in desperate need of someone writing something to tie into MythTV's multirec capability Nov 07 06:41:38 until tv's have ethernet ports Nov 07 06:41:44 that work Nov 07 06:41:54 RyeBrye: for that kind of application, cell-based location is precise enough, it's much faster and uses less battery. Nov 07 06:41:55 ryebrye many folks seem to be doing HDTV OTA Nov 07 06:42:03 and I'd say 75% of them end up at that site Nov 07 06:42:03 jbq - yes, you're true Nov 07 06:42:10 err - your're correct Nov 07 06:42:18 jbq er, no way Nov 07 06:42:35 many places only locate to about 1/2 a city, that's not enough to point an antenna Nov 07 06:42:44 RyeBrye: wait ive recorded from both tuners on my hdhr before using myth--whats special about the multirec tree? Nov 07 06:43:27 umdk1d3 - multirec handles recording multiple things off of a single mux - so if you have ABC and NBC on one mux, and CBS and FOX on the other - you can record 4 shows on 2 tuners Nov 07 06:43:41 oh awesome Nov 07 06:43:43 where is the monkey app located? Nov 07 06:43:44 that is more common on QAM than ATSC Nov 07 06:43:57 yea we had clear qam in this town forever until a few months ago Nov 07 06:44:03 like 12 channels packed per mux Nov 07 06:44:06 spikebike: well, you can do it two-stage: if the fix you get from cell is precise enough (especially if you're far from your TV tower), go with it. Otherwise, go for GPS. Nov 07 06:44:30 In berkeley and inside of sacramento it's often within a block Nov 07 06:44:40 but in davis or even slightly outside of sacramento it's often awful Nov 07 06:44:47 rumor has it that fios still offers clear qam, and probably always will? because the channel filtering happens further up the chain Nov 07 06:44:48 wait, he's putting the phone on the antenna, isn't he? Nov 07 06:44:53 I thought I had the worlds lamest GPS in my g1 as I drove home Nov 07 06:44:59 turns out the gps was off by default Nov 07 06:45:01 RyeBrye, back to the shortcode thing Nov 07 06:45:04 or what's the compass for? Nov 07 06:45:16 cells are very small in densely populated areas, much larger in rural areas. Nov 07 06:46:34 but even on QAM - when you hit say 38 and it has 16.1, 16.2, and 16.3 on it - you could theoretically record all of those channels simulateously Nov 07 06:46:34 s/QAM/ATSC/ Nov 07 06:46:34 RyeBrye meant: but even on ATSC - when you hit say 38 and it has 16.1, 16.2, and 16.3 on it - you could theoretically record all of those channels simulateously Nov 07 06:46:58 BOTT! Nov 07 06:47:03 kill eeet Nov 07 06:47:07 thanks infobot Nov 07 06:47:07 no problem, DarkriftX Nov 07 06:47:08 umdk1d3 - when you use hdhomerun_config and get status on a tuner- it doesn't block the tuner from working right? you can get the status and the tuner will still spit out whatever to the other machine? Maybe an HDHR status monitor app would be cool to write - throw a compass on it and you're good to go Nov 07 06:47:08 That sucks. ATSC is way better anyway if you get the same channels Nov 07 06:47:08 well... not necessarily way better - but usually way better bitrates Nov 07 06:47:09 lol Nov 07 06:47:12 yeah, you can also cat the ts if you don't like your diskspace Nov 07 06:48:44 ignaciogggg - what do you need to know? Nov 07 06:48:52 tmzt - using the compass to aim the antenna in the best direction for ATSC TV reception... and man... this IRC is lagged for me :) Nov 07 06:49:12 we can tell RyeBrye Nov 07 06:49:13 makes alot more sense then what I said Nov 07 06:49:17 you spit like 4x lines at once Nov 07 06:49:29 * RyeBrye always types 4 lines at once Nov 07 06:49:36 * RyeBrye has quad-core Nov 07 06:50:16 Anectodataly - whoever put the antenna in my attic had it turned in the worst possible direction. It is a big YAGI style one - and when I adjusted it, I had to turn it basically 90 degrees Nov 07 06:50:23 * spikebike has quad core but is lusting after the new intel 8 thread chips Nov 07 06:50:38 Well... I guess it was ALMOST the worst - I guess it wasn't 180 degrees Nov 07 06:50:47 they fix the security issues in smt? Nov 07 06:51:14 you mean the leaks in performance for ssl like stuff? Nov 07 06:52:02 no, the ones on lkml Nov 07 06:52:20 I thought that was on lkml Nov 07 06:52:27 I know of nothing that I'd consider serious Nov 07 06:52:43 was it real leakage? Nov 07 06:53:02 or just that you could detect cache footprint and jump locality on shared cores? Nov 07 06:53:19 only what I remember, but they had data exposure across threads? Nov 07 06:53:48 I don't recall any real exposure... i.e. the contents of memory or registers Nov 07 06:54:11 ok Nov 07 06:54:16 just that if you know they were running an openssl keygen you could do a timing attack to see how long they were in each loop Nov 07 06:59:55 Hello. Nov 07 07:00:09 Tetracomm: Hi. Nov 07 07:00:12 Can I develop Android applications in languages other than Java? Nov 07 07:00:24 Tetracomm: Not yet. Nov 07 07:00:43 Lawd. :( Nov 07 07:00:48 I don't know Java. Nov 07 07:00:51 There is a roadmap for a language other than java? Nov 07 07:01:04 Do you think it will support C/C++ any time soon? Nov 07 07:01:09 RyeBrye: Not that I know of. Nov 07 07:01:09 Tetracomm: Probably not. Nov 07 07:01:13 NEVAR Nov 07 07:01:20 untrue Nov 07 07:01:21 Err. Nov 07 07:01:30 Oh, I am speaking of stuff that runs in the VM. Nov 07 07:01:32 What other languages might it support? Nov 07 07:01:35 Tetracomm: what's your main language? Nov 07 07:01:42 Could be worse... could be Objective-C only :) Nov 07 07:01:45 You could compile C/C++ code and call it from Java, but that's not officially supported. Nov 07 07:01:47 Delphi, but I am learning C now Nov 07 07:01:49 . Nov 07 07:01:51 RyeBrye: ;-) Nov 07 07:01:53 c extensions via jni and bundled .so are possible in 1.0. the ndk (native dev kit) is not ready for prime time yet Nov 07 07:01:56 Tetracomm: ah, Nov 07 07:02:06 Java is a different family, you'll have some learning to do Nov 07 07:02:13 going from pascal to java is a bit easier than pascal to c Nov 07 07:02:13 you could target dex from different frontends Nov 07 07:02:32 and longer term, the platform is intended to be able to host different runtime environments, but that's a ways out Nov 07 07:02:34 pointers are about the same (java doesn't have pointers and the ones in pascal are mostly hidden) Nov 07 07:02:50 tmzt: Java has pointers, just not pointer arithmetic Nov 07 07:03:07 the process model used is partially for security sandboxing and partially to provide for (longer term) different environments coexisting Nov 07 07:03:10 ok Nov 07 07:03:56 the security model does not depend on a virtual machine. the virtual machine is there because java is a pretty decent language for this stuff, with good existing tools, and a large userbase Nov 07 07:07:33 Ok. Nov 07 07:09:00 heh Nov 07 07:09:29 seems like eclipse has evolved from a nice tool for development and flipped around into being a reason to use java ;-) Nov 07 07:09:52 Totally agree, spikebike Nov 07 07:11:46 * RyeBrye feels differently about Eclipse Nov 07 07:11:58 I think Eclipse has evolved into a reason to buy a crapton of RAM perhaps Nov 07 07:12:01 when a contact is set "directly to voicemail", is there anyway to get it so that their calls do not appear in the call log? Nov 07 07:12:03 Eclipse or IDEA, whatever rocks your boat Nov 07 07:12:18 Yes, IDEA rocks my boat and rows it at the same time! :) Nov 07 07:12:43 most of my bad feelings for eclipse stem from the sub-par plugin that Adobe has for Flex development Nov 07 07:14:13 (bath water + baby).throw() Nov 07 07:14:39 Well... in order to get the bath water in there, I'd have to find the installer for additional stuff under the Help menu first Nov 07 07:14:42 ;) Nov 07 07:20:26 finally, after switching to jdk5.. 'make sdk' works Nov 07 07:20:29 phew Nov 07 07:21:48 from? Nov 07 07:21:51 1.6 doesn't work? Nov 07 07:22:30 yep, 1.6 fails Nov 07 07:23:39 sad, I hope they fix that Nov 07 07:24:06 its not officially supported yet Nov 07 07:25:28 How does it fail? Nov 07 07:26:31 http://www.evan129.com/2008/11/02/android-platform-study-tips-eng/ Nov 07 07:27:37 not sure, what it is.. but jdk1.6 never generated sdk Nov 07 07:27:50 it did only sdk docs Nov 07 07:27:54 Looks like the doclet is using non public classes Nov 07 07:28:03 looks like it Nov 07 07:28:07 sun.util.* Nov 07 07:28:10 not surprising Nov 07 07:29:05 jerks Nov 07 07:30:11 is that Throwable (is Object Throwable)? Nov 07 07:31:34 Object is not throwable.. Nov 07 07:32:04 thanks, but I shouldn't scroll back and respond to that stuff anyway Nov 07 07:34:56 "You could compile C/C++ code and call it from Java, but that's not officially supported." <--- Using something like Swig? Nov 07 07:36:19 JNI Nov 07 07:36:24 Ahhh Nov 07 07:42:08 One more question ;) ...I heard someone ported a GameBoy Advance emulator to Android already. Got me thinking as to whether they were able to use dynamic recompilation. Is there a way/a need to clear the instruction cache on something such as the G1, and would the JVM interfere with dynamically compiling and executing code on the fly? My guess is something such as a dynarec wouldnt be feasible. Nov 07 07:44:46 zod: dalvik does nothing on the fly Nov 07 07:45:00 it's a compile time conversion from jvm -> dex Nov 07 07:46:31 Hmm, so would that let me be able to write dynamically executed code (a dynarec) on this platform? Nov 07 07:47:23 you can write an interpreter of course Nov 07 07:47:32 Yes true Nov 07 07:47:38 but I don't believe dynamic compiliation/JIT is feasible at the moment Nov 07 07:47:51 I believe the gameboy folks mentioned horrible performanc Nov 07 07:47:53 Ah ok. Yeah I had a feeling ;) Nov 07 07:48:13 there's a google I/O talk on dalvik that is pretty good Nov 07 07:48:23 I recomment it (it's on youtube) Nov 07 07:48:30 or somewhere google can find anywas Nov 07 07:48:31 ok Ill search for it Nov 07 07:48:34 heh yeah :) Nov 07 07:50:03 Ah, it was a Gameboy emulator. I was told GBA. This makes more sense now! I was wondering where that performance was coming from! :) Nov 07 07:51:10 what performance? ;-) Nov 07 07:51:19 Heh ;P Nov 07 07:53:18 I've done a few ports of emulators to the iPhone (ugh!) and look to get some homebrew games (original titles) done for the G1 to start, and if possible however unlikely, go for some emulation. Is there one community site better than another for this sort? Nov 07 07:54:35 Hrm, good question to ask Nov 07 07:54:43 I just came across Nov 07 07:54:44 er Nov 07 07:54:53 First thing I saw was androidcommunity.com Nov 07 07:55:14 i'm fairly unimpressed by ^ Nov 07 07:55:28 By the title of the google listing, I would be too Nov 07 07:56:02 It was one of the "Will we ever see [insert hard to accomplish app here]" Nov 07 07:56:09 http://www.rbgrn.net/blog/2008/11/getting-started-in-android-game-development.html Nov 07 07:56:19 not very detailed though 8-( Nov 07 07:56:23 checking Nov 07 07:56:50 It's kinda early it seems Nov 07 07:57:18 I kinda expect it to crystalize a bit into 4-5 places specializaing in things like hacking the g1 Nov 07 07:57:21 application review Nov 07 07:57:22 s Nov 07 07:57:31 development for the g1 Nov 07 07:57:45 Yeah. I know of a few sites getting ready to pop up for Android. Nov 07 07:57:48 but here's not a bad place to ask Nov 07 07:59:36 Oh, I dug this up from my buddies site: http://www.modmygphone.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#2D_and_3D_Graphics Nov 07 08:04:18 heh hi zodttd Nov 07 08:06:32 He lives! :) Nov 07 08:06:33 heya Nov 07 08:07:03 poetic_folly|G5: Definitely building up that wiki will be a good thing Nov 07 08:07:03 you see saurik is working diligently on the G1 too now? Nov 07 08:07:08 No! Awesome! Nov 07 08:07:13 zodttd: help me out. ;) Nov 07 08:07:19 k ;) Nov 07 08:07:26 saurik is nearing getting DEBIAN running on it Nov 07 08:07:43 Ohh sheeze...! Nov 07 08:07:51 That would be great news for me Nov 07 08:07:51 heh Nov 07 08:08:00 Is he in need of help? Nov 07 08:08:12 or silently working alone on his endevours? Nov 07 08:08:29 zodttd: nah, he told me he thought he'dd have it running today sometime Nov 07 08:08:45 where is the browser files on the device located Nov 07 08:09:32 poetic_folly|G5: Well if you get a chance to speak to him, let him know i'm coming and I will help where I can :) Nov 07 08:10:14 sure, will do. been chatting with him off and on tonight. hows your work coming? i'm trying to build up the mmg wiki. so far only myself and living_sword (neerhaj) been working on it. Nov 07 08:10:27 all help would be appreciated. ;) Nov 07 08:10:27 where are settings stored for apps on the g1 Nov 07 08:11:14 ionstorm: maybe data/app? Nov 07 08:11:22 or data/data/ Nov 07 08:11:49 You mean the shared preferences for apps? Nov 07 08:11:52 Or the global settings? Nov 07 08:12:02 well settings for the browser im looking for Nov 07 08:12:05 If the former, /data/data//foo.xml Nov 07 08:12:07 and settings for gmail Nov 07 08:12:10 poetic_folly|G5: Well my work is slow but steady. Still doin the iPhone stuff, but I have a cool lil original game I could port to the G1 once I get a feel for things. Nov 07 08:12:14 k Nov 07 08:12:18 actually there's a shared_preferences directory in there Nov 07 08:12:34 is that directory refreshed after reboot or saved Nov 07 08:12:38 zodttd: nice. that'll be fun. Nov 07 08:12:57 i got you that unlock code, right? i forget if i emailed you... Nov 07 08:12:58 poetic_folly|G5: Yeah, should be a good test app. Nov 07 08:13:04 Yeah I got it :) Nov 07 08:13:10 I replied too heh Nov 07 08:13:12 oh cool Nov 07 08:13:58 oh thats right Nov 07 08:14:03 man my days are blurring together Nov 07 08:14:27 zodttd yeah pondering a game myself Nov 07 08:15:03 poetic_folly|G5: been busy ? ;) Nov 07 08:15:17 spikebike: Hows the Android Market handling? Nov 07 08:15:39 zodttd: like crazy. kid is almost 10 weeks old now, ModMyGphone is just starting to take off, and MMi is busier than ever with a bunch of new stuff. i never sleep. Nov 07 08:15:51 I bet with more phones emerging with the platform, it will get huge Nov 07 08:16:08 poetic_folly|G5: No sleep is good sometimes ;P Nov 07 08:16:24 handling? Nov 07 08:16:50 I was wondering if the sales figures are decent... Nov 07 08:17:05 zodttd: yah, that's the thought - more phones = more traffic. and yah, no sleep is good. means i'm staying above the rest of the economy at least, haha. Nov 07 08:17:11 oh no sales yet Nov 07 08:17:13 zodttd: its all free so far Nov 07 08:17:15 gdsx: you there? Nov 07 08:17:17 ahh ok! Nov 07 08:17:33 sales start uh... q1? Nov 07 08:18:02 gives people time to be first in line :P Nov 07 08:18:12 well you can list dmos and charge offsite Nov 07 08:18:40 ah true Nov 07 08:20:30 http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page anyone see anything vital that is missing? Nov 07 08:21:53 i see that connectbot doesnt auto rec urls. Nov 07 08:22:00 "Hello Android, you are my bitch"? Nov 07 08:22:12 lol, RyeBrye did that Nov 07 08:22:32 Doesn't exactly exhale an impression of professionalism. Nov 07 08:22:46 i was gonna edit it to be more pg13 but dont have the tools atm Nov 07 08:23:11 As in putting a black rectangle on the second sentence? :) Nov 07 08:23:19 lol Nov 07 08:24:16 im trying to find the boolean name= that enabled fileupload in the browser Nov 07 08:24:22 any ideas Nov 07 08:25:33 fixed cbeust_ :) Nov 07 08:25:38 didnt think of that Nov 07 08:25:45 was thinking of how to edit the last word Nov 07 08:26:41 Better :) Nov 07 08:26:55 I got rid of the image :) Nov 07 08:27:00 It has outlived its usefulness Nov 07 08:27:24 lol Nov 07 08:27:45 i feel like something major is missing but cant figure out what Nov 07 08:27:52 i added a page on forcing the updates Nov 07 08:28:03 fixed some of my links (still learning this wiki stuff) Nov 07 08:28:07 tethering? Nov 07 08:28:20 thats missing on the phone, not just the wiki Nov 07 08:28:33 or did someone get a ssh tethering method working Nov 07 08:28:46 no, adb tethering Nov 07 08:29:23 web proxy sounded reasonable Nov 07 08:32:43 anyone know how to compile C code for this thing on something other than debian? Nov 07 08:32:52 My hello world attempts are segfaulting :/ Nov 07 08:33:14 hmm is upload capability in the android browser even coded in Nov 07 08:35:40 anyone know the key combo for the htc fieldtest Nov 07 08:36:53 saurik: you doing chroot or something else? Nov 07 08:40:19 ionstorm - I just use anycut to get it Nov 07 08:41:21 k Nov 07 08:41:46 u seen meebo? Nov 07 08:41:53 its a start for an im app Nov 07 08:41:55 lol Nov 07 08:42:18 ah didn't realize saurik was in here Nov 07 08:43:36 lol Nov 07 08:44:42 poetic_folly, woah. Nov 07 08:44:51 oh btw zodttd, nice on vlc4iphone Nov 07 08:44:56 BHSPitMonkey: sup Nov 07 08:45:01 double woah. Nov 07 08:45:06 ? Nov 07 08:45:30 Okay, everybody from the other network, raise your hand and identify yourselves Nov 07 08:45:32 anyone tested these modified recovery images? Nov 07 08:45:50 * poetic_folly raises hand Nov 07 08:45:56 dream_kill has Nov 07 08:46:08 well, I don't know which specifically you are talking about Nov 07 08:46:09 poetic_folly, maybe we should branch off to #iphone-hackers-on-android Nov 07 08:46:10 but he has done it on his Nov 07 08:46:27 BHSPitMonkey: heh. yah the gangs all here. Nov 07 08:46:36 cool Nov 07 08:46:36 even got a modmy site for it. ; Nov 07 08:46:44 have you tried any updates since installing it? Nov 07 08:46:57 poetic_folly, so, I wonder when Saurik's gonna give us some Cydroid love :P Nov 07 08:46:58 He has, I haven't Nov 07 08:47:02 and does it allow downgrading to older firmwares? Nov 07 08:47:08 poetic_folly, yes, I looked around the site a few days ago Nov 07 08:47:10 completely OT, but BHSPitMonkey I do believe you first told me about tab completion. thank you. lol Nov 07 08:47:22 you guys going to port the platform to mach/bsd? ^^ Nov 07 08:47:23 DarkriftX - sure - you just modify the update script - that's where the downgrading is controlled Nov 07 08:47:32 nie Nov 07 08:47:34 nice* Nov 07 08:47:40 so installing this now is a big + Nov 07 08:47:44 poetic_folly: No way! How long were you on IRC without tab completion? Nov 07 08:47:44 heh Nov 07 08:47:49 zodttd: months Nov 07 08:47:52 :D Nov 07 08:47:56 whoa, impressive :) Nov 07 08:47:57 can resign ota's to install, can downgrade if they force an ota on you that takes away root etc Nov 07 08:48:00 DarkriftX - did someone prebuild one? Nov 07 08:48:02 I wouldn't trust one that I didn't build myself Nov 07 08:48:07 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=443041 Nov 07 08:48:12 kept trying to figure out how the hell BHSPitMonkey spelled his name Nov 07 08:48:14 lol Nov 07 08:48:23 Must of been wondering why people always used your exact nickname when typing! Nov 07 08:48:25 lol! Nov 07 08:48:35 i just thought they were all thorough Nov 07 08:48:38 ;) Nov 07 08:48:39 :) Nov 07 08:49:33 anyway almost 4 am. time for me to hit the rack, video shoot at 9 am. sigh. Nov 07 08:49:49 same Nov 07 08:49:51 How will we regain root after a significant firmware upgrade? Nov 07 08:50:02 have fun pr0ning poetic_folly, night Nov 07 08:50:08 ionstorm, im hoping thats what this recovery mod will help with Nov 07 08:50:12 haha zodttd thanks Nov 07 08:50:31 word Nov 07 08:50:35 swetland: aapl would just love that, wouln't they? ) Nov 07 08:51:43 tmzt: not being an apple employee, I would not feel comfortable speculating on their opinions ^^ Nov 07 08:51:53 but *I* would think it was pretty cute Nov 07 08:52:02 could be fun to support X though, at least for individual apps as there are other approaches being taken on those devices Nov 07 08:52:29 x could work Nov 07 08:52:41 i have x on a 216mhz pda with 64mb ram :S Nov 07 08:52:41 well there are claims that vm's just aren't allowed in store Nov 07 08:53:03 DarkriftX: which? Nov 07 08:53:12 nec mobilepro 900c Nov 07 08:53:25 has a slimmed down debian on it Nov 07 08:53:29 icewm Nov 07 08:53:33 DarkriftX: unfortunately X won't work on here (q) Nov 07 08:53:40 even has firefox! lol Nov 07 08:53:51 you could probably put together an X server that used surfacemanager surfaces for its backingstore put together if you wanted Nov 07 08:54:02 and actually arrange to have X apps coexist with native apps Nov 07 08:54:21 yeah, have that with debian armel, had to build xserver-xfbdev Nov 07 08:55:04 ok, but I was talking about the other way around Nov 07 08:55:06 damn im gonna be pissed if by the time i can afford a g1 they are all patched Nov 07 08:55:23 I'm guessing they will be all patched soon :/ Nov 07 08:55:37 there's likely another exploit - but it will be LOT harder Nov 07 08:55:48 very slow to type, need g1 Nov 07 08:56:00 rye: yeah, you guys totally got a freebie the first time around Nov 07 08:56:01 someone needs to buy lots of them, reload the recovery image and resell them for like $30 more then they paid Nov 07 08:56:02 5 rows keys Nov 07 08:56:14 * swetland cannot believe we missed that one Nov 07 08:56:16 well if i buy one that cannot be rooted ill return the fucker Nov 07 08:56:51 as it is, its just a phone with pretty apps.... Nov 07 08:57:02 * swetland recalls checking serial numbers on boxes before buying extra psps back in the day ^^ Nov 07 08:57:03 how is keyboard leaking to console if console=ttyS0 ? Nov 07 08:57:16 the fry's employee was very confused as to why that mattered Nov 07 08:57:23 lol swetland i bet Nov 07 08:57:33 they are always last to know (or first and you wouldnt find one) Nov 07 08:57:38 "no, no, I need to see the box first" Nov 07 08:57:54 tmzt: console isn't ttyS0 Nov 07 08:58:02 google should have taken longer to patch it Nov 07 08:58:11 or should patch ota, but not new boxed units Nov 07 08:58:38 this "g1 rooted" news will probably spike sales, and users will be pissed if they get updated units Nov 07 08:58:48 lol Nov 07 08:58:53 the sequence of events that lead to this (as best I can see), is we moved to the fiq serial debugger and removed console=ttyMSM2 a while back Nov 07 08:58:57 DarkriftX: I seriously doubt that such a news would spike sales :)) Nov 07 08:59:00 which ended up leaving console as tty1 Nov 07 08:59:08 is there somewhere I can read details on this bug Nov 07 08:59:12 *but* that had no effect because of the console switching code Nov 07 08:59:17 DarkriftX: the real solution is to have patched g1s, but to offer totally unlocked dev units Nov 07 08:59:19 which we later removed, because it deadlocked Nov 07 08:59:30 romain: that's crazy talk. we'd never do something like that ^^ Nov 07 08:59:33 we gotta find a way to save battery life without disabling shit Nov 07 08:59:46 your prob right romainguy but all i know is i like the g1 more as a tiny computer and less as a phone Nov 07 08:59:47 swetland: I'm just saying it'd be nice :) Nov 07 09:00:00 DarkriftX: but that's because you're not the typical phone consumer Nov 07 09:00:02 totaly unlocked dev units would be nice - but $$ most likely Nov 07 09:00:39 DarkriftX: all the persons I met at the T-Mobile store on the first day the G1 was sold were definitely to the type interested by using a shell on a phone ^^ Nov 07 09:00:50 hence my comment: the real solution is to have dev devices Nov 07 09:00:58 i bet Nov 07 09:01:03 * umdk1d3 raises hand, yes i would buy a completely unlocked dev device Nov 07 09:01:32 Yes, it is true Nov 07 09:01:41 i bet at&t would like unlocked unit owners to switch over to them :) Nov 07 09:01:46 swetland: yeah, you had said fbcon was pulled because of that chvt issue Nov 07 09:01:51 they would welcome you with open bandwidth, erm arms Nov 07 09:01:53 People I've mentioned in passing to that the G1 was hacked were surprised it even needed to be haked Nov 07 09:02:03 do t-mobile stores have demo units in store Nov 07 09:02:04 yeah RyeBrye, i get that a lot Nov 07 09:02:11 jsherman, non working ones Nov 07 09:02:17 so does walmart Nov 07 09:02:20 i went to a t-mobile store today, and they said they had no demo units due to theft problems Nov 07 09:02:21 I've seen working ones Nov 07 09:02:24 tmzt: so basically when we yanked the fbcon, the vt stuff stayed behind, and removing the serial debug console ended up leaving console as tty1 Nov 07 09:02:28 they do NOT do the g1 justice though Nov 07 09:02:34 apparently all the other phones are just dummies Nov 07 09:02:57 *then* somehow nobody noticed this through a whole ton of audits, reviews, testing Nov 07 09:03:10 kill all the monkeys, they failed to find this bug!! Nov 07 09:03:13 which is certainly rather embarrassing Nov 07 09:03:16 swetland: when I think of all the crap I got for my ViewServer :)) Nov 07 09:03:19 i wanted to do a wiki page about the monkeys Nov 07 09:03:36 swetland: well at least I'm sure it explains some weird behaviors that were reported :p Nov 07 09:03:41 G1: Monkeys Inside! Nov 07 09:03:47 My personal favorite part of it, though, is that you can type "reboot" while you are booting the phone :) Nov 07 09:04:01 or if someone texted their friend "reboot" ... :) Nov 07 09:04:03 even a big store like the SF t-mobile doesn't have live demo's? Nov 07 09:04:12 jsherman: I've seen live demos in SF Nov 07 09:04:14 honestly the only thing that surprises me is it took as long as it did for somebody to notice it Nov 07 09:04:17 ok Nov 07 09:04:21 there was no reason to lock down init.rc on qemu tqrget, and whatever the build sytem builds (Chicago is trying on titan) Nov 07 09:04:24 so some do have them? Nov 07 09:04:34 RyeBrye, i can see someones face who texts their friend "reboot my computer please" and their phone reboots Nov 07 09:04:39 so wait, it picks up "reboot" typed anywhere from in the phone? Nov 07 09:04:42 the yaffs2 .img,s Nov 07 09:04:44 only shortly after boot Nov 07 09:04:46 although that wouldnt work with the extra text Nov 07 09:04:51 umdk1d3: yeah Nov 07 09:04:56 so if there were a bashhistory on the phone........ Nov 07 09:04:57 umdk: basically *all* keys are going to a root shell on console Nov 07 09:05:06 lol umdk1d3! Nov 07 09:05:11 up enter, poof Nov 07 09:05:13 no history or editing on the really trimmed down shell Nov 07 09:05:28 but - the fact that the keymap was messed up meant you couldn't do / 's right? Nov 07 09:05:32 or any special chars? Nov 07 09:05:36 sooo Nov 07 09:05:37 but not translating fn keys for some reason, according to this log Nov 07 09:05:52 well yeah Nov 07 09:05:55 right - so you couldn't do rm -rf /* or anything Nov 07 09:05:58 we've never really *used* console for anything Nov 07 09:06:03 it doesn't have a complete kernel keymap Nov 07 09:06:19 I should submit a patch for you to fix that Nov 07 09:06:21 where is the fstab file in the g1 Nov 07 09:06:24 ;) Nov 07 09:06:28 hola cmonex Nov 07 09:06:36 rye: we'd probably accept it Nov 07 09:06:41 RyeBrye: haha... saurik was saying imagine a fake captcha on a site saying "please type rm -rf /* to verify" or something... Nov 07 09:06:46 RyeBrye, is there a page online or something that gives a description of what exactly this exploit to android Nov 07 09:06:49 provided it was clean, kernel style correct, etc ^^ Nov 07 09:06:50 swetland: has any of this stuff been an issue on rc30/similar devices? Nov 07 09:07:06 jsherman - there isn't yet - but there should be on the wiki Nov 07 09:07:08 we had someone report the "reboot" issue awhile back, but we ignored it because we couldnt reproduce it Nov 07 09:07:18 *for the connectbot ssh client Nov 07 09:07:20 "stupid user" :) Nov 07 09:07:27 the console tends to get stuck eventually Nov 07 09:07:32 because it is picking up *all* input Nov 07 09:07:37 if you type "look at my cat" Nov 07 09:07:46 * geist notes the cat's out of the bag Nov 07 09:07:52 it would just sit in cat, right? Nov 07 09:07:54 so it tends to be most reliably reproducible after a fresh boot Nov 07 09:08:13 rye: might need an enter before cat, but yeah there are a couple different ways it could get stuck Nov 07 09:08:28 geist: there's a pretty decent writeup about the bug out there now Nov 07 09:08:35 ah, was wondering about that Nov 07 09:08:45 had fun toying with it the other day Nov 07 09:08:50 swetland, where? Nov 07 09:09:33 so - swetland - the other night when we were all busy pleasuring ourselves with the root shell and you mentioned you were really familiar with it... etc. - you already knew at that point what was happening? Nov 07 09:10:03 rye: yup. already fixed. in the pipe for approval. Nov 07 09:10:22 now that it's written up i can show my cow-orkers Nov 07 09:10:28 and we can all have a good laugh Nov 07 09:10:29 http://android.jim.sh/index.php/ConsoleShell Nov 07 09:10:42 geist: may your linuxphone not make the same mistakes ours did ^^ Nov 07 09:10:52 so, swetland - what's the next exploit in the pipes then ;) Nov 07 09:11:06 rye: we don't actually *plan* the exploits. we try to prevent them Nov 07 09:11:08 i done fixed that bug a few months ago, unless of course it shows up again Nov 07 09:11:09 Oh Nov 07 09:11:10 darn Nov 07 09:11:11 :) Nov 07 09:11:50 my big question is what the hell telnetd is doing there in the first place Nov 07 09:12:01 honestly I think this one was waaay to easy and if you guys were good sports, you'd pick up the fix and try again after we got it right ^^ Nov 07 09:12:01 lol Nov 07 09:12:17 that is humorous Nov 07 09:12:35 geist: was useful for debugging the usbethernet function driver, and somehow did not escape the "scrub unused tests / extra junk" pass Nov 07 09:12:37 swetland - I might :) - but only after I give myself a safety net so I can reflash after the fact :) Nov 07 09:12:53 (i.e I just resign the fix and apply it) Nov 07 09:13:06 rye: so you have us massively outnumbered *and* you cheat. hardly sporting ^^ Nov 07 09:13:17 i guess when I read "exploit" i assumed something others could access Nov 07 09:13:21 massively outnumbered? Nov 07 09:13:22 why is this important Nov 07 09:13:22 Nah Nov 07 09:13:39 don't you have a googol employees working on this project? Nov 07 09:13:51 having all input funnel into a rootshell is a pretty bad bug no matter how you slice it Nov 07 09:14:04 jsherman: local exploit, as in an issue with the security of a device/system Nov 07 09:14:11 yeah, good thing flash_image had an underscore in it :) Nov 07 09:14:12 there's no known remote exploit (besides social engineering I suppose), thankfully. Nov 07 09:14:25 but it's only accessible to the owner of the device Nov 07 09:14:27 * geist whispers 'tinkerbell' Nov 07 09:15:04 I guess maybe if the phone was stolen and you had it locked carefully you wouldn't want them to do that Nov 07 09:15:29 I'd rather have this than a TIFF exploit or something Nov 07 09:15:31 jsherman: yup Nov 07 09:15:41 ooh could you somehow killall the unlock screen? Nov 07 09:15:55 rye: if it were a valid remote root escalation attack, I'd be far more stressed about it being discovered before a patch was deployed Nov 07 09:15:57 I don't think killall is installed is it? Nov 07 09:16:01 locked? they said this worked on the lockscreen, so its kind of useless Nov 07 09:16:20 its a java process, but maybe there is some way of controlling dalvik processes as root? Nov 07 09:16:40 if killall is installed, but 'cp' isn't - there are some priorities out of wack Nov 07 09:16:40 if this were an exploit that could only be performed on a phone in an "unlocked" state (already booted fully etc), would it be considered a bug? Nov 07 09:16:53 it's definitely a bug Nov 07 09:16:58 accidentally type reboot Nov 07 09:16:59 yeah as it is now Nov 07 09:16:59 phone reboots Nov 07 09:17:00 etc Nov 07 09:17:05 cp is for wimps Nov 07 09:17:09 woudlnt it need to be \nreboot\n though? Nov 07 09:17:10 cat foo > bar Nov 07 09:17:15 wait, even after it's fully booted? Nov 07 09:17:21 yeah Nov 07 09:17:38 er upon first reading it seemed to me one meant press the keyboard while the loading screen is showing Nov 07 09:17:39 jsherman: yea we had random reports of people rebooting their boxes over ssh, and saying it would reboot their phones too Nov 07 09:17:41 you could leave the phone on for a few hours after booting and type in 'reboot' and hit enter and it would work Nov 07 09:17:46 we passed it off as they were crazy :P Nov 07 09:18:02 you write back to them "sorry - it doesn't work that way" Nov 07 09:18:23 they are crazy... just sometimes they are right as well Nov 07 09:18:29 hmkay so im interested in this now--killing the lock screen Nov 07 09:18:29 oh Nov 07 09:18:54 adb somehow kills processes when it uninstalls those packages Nov 07 09:19:02 so, yes, it is definitely a bug. it is a local root exploit which could lead to extraction of private data if you obtained somebody's phone, etc Nov 07 09:19:07 how do the events get to the console, doesn't the android process have the key input Nov 07 09:19:08 but i dont think we could uninstall the unlock screen because its part of the core system Nov 07 09:19:32 Did you guys play around with having the home screen take 'shaking' as an input to change between screens and stuff? Nov 07 09:19:56 rye: dunno Nov 07 09:20:07 I'll have to ask romainguy about it later Nov 07 09:20:23 It'd be a cool "party mode" settin to turn on to wow your friends Nov 07 09:20:31 yeah, anything much above init/libc is all fluffy apps code in my book ^^ Nov 07 09:20:38 :) Nov 07 09:21:02 wasteful pixel pushers Nov 07 09:21:13 geist: indeed. Nov 07 09:22:33 does every init process need /dev/console, I know bash will panic if started interactively as init Nov 07 09:22:37 ? Nov 07 09:22:49 I will say... I don't like how all your code seems to avoid strcpy, gets, scanf, etc... Nov 07 09:22:53 init doesn't need /dev/console at all Nov 07 09:23:03 :) Nov 07 09:23:06 (well, ours doesn't -- maybe other inits do) Nov 07 09:23:18 well, where does it's output go otherwise? Nov 07 09:23:29 rye: the security team is mean and yells at us a lot Nov 07 09:23:29 /dev/null i guess, but you need to push the bits somewhere Nov 07 09:23:31 and zygote is on /dev/input/eventX ? Nov 07 09:23:38 geist: kernel log Nov 07 09:24:08 you dont have enormous server spew on console? Nov 07 09:24:14 * geist grumbls Nov 07 09:24:27 geist: no, everything spews to the log driver Nov 07 09:24:38 dont really have console, at least output Nov 07 09:24:52 geist: don't worry, our userspace people are probably as horrible as yours (or more so) about log spew Nov 07 09:24:55 swetland - you guy should talk T-mobile into selling a Developer update track or something for existing phones - all they would need to do is send an SDCard update file to people and give them root... - would require no new hardware Nov 07 09:25:02 yeah Nov 07 09:25:06 They could even sell it for $50 or something Nov 07 09:25:11 it's a constant barrage of noise Nov 07 09:25:16 rye: it is an idea that has been kicked around (well not making it for-pay) Nov 07 09:25:23 yeah Nov 07 09:25:27 making it pay would be bad Nov 07 09:25:28 rye that would be awesome Nov 07 09:25:31 rye: it's a *tricky* idea to socialize to the carriers Nov 07 09:25:33 I think smd amss exposes ess than the usb cards do Nov 07 09:25:40 google should just find a way to give them away for free Nov 07 09:25:46 RyeBrye, if you build his images and they work, lemme know, ill upload them to my hosting Nov 07 09:25:49 but - T-mobile would be like "Oh, we charge for AIM messages as if they were SMS..." Nov 07 09:25:56 google should also provide ponies Nov 07 09:25:58 something like the contest Nov 07 09:26:09 haha, no obviously i mean in a way that is to their benefit Nov 07 09:26:17 not to just anyone Nov 07 09:26:23 ponies make users happy Nov 07 09:26:26 I don't think google CAN give away developer upgrades for these phones - since Google doesn't seem to hold the OTA update key Nov 07 09:26:27 happy users search more Nov 07 09:26:30 everyone wins Nov 07 09:26:31 mmm, special ponies Nov 07 09:26:31 it's signed by HTC iirc Nov 07 09:26:38 players club ponies Nov 07 09:26:47 RyeBrye: that might be the bootloader only? Nov 07 09:26:48 Oh, I hacked mine to send all the searches through ask.com - ;) Nov 07 09:27:02 rye: hacking your pony is *mean* and possibly *unamerican* Nov 07 09:27:11 true Nov 07 09:27:14 I think smd amss exposes less than the usb cards do Nov 07 09:27:16 *frumple* Nov 07 09:27:17 I turned it into a donkey though Nov 07 09:27:46 * DarkriftX readies himself for the last smoke before sleep Nov 07 09:27:47 gn all Nov 07 09:27:56 haha ok maybe it was a stupid idea, but it seems like a bunch of phones to encourage app dev is cheaper than the prizes for the ADC Nov 07 09:27:57 umdk1d3 - I think the cert.sf that signs the OTA updates is HTC's Nov 07 09:28:03 ryebrye but for now we can change the ota update key Nov 07 09:28:10 Right Nov 07 09:28:33 but... the earlier idea about having a Dev firmware update - Google would have to push the people who hold that key to do it if they wanted an official channel to do it Nov 07 09:29:01 well does a update from SD require the OTA key? Nov 07 09:29:09 hrm, I'm guessing it would Nov 07 09:29:13 yes, it must be signed Nov 07 09:29:24 the keys it looks for get compiled in Nov 07 09:29:31 but - you can flash that so you can sign your own updates Nov 07 09:29:37 and only your updates can be signed then... etc Nov 07 09:29:44 * RyeBrye must sleep now Nov 07 09:29:49 rye: that solves the problem of the recovery program leaving them on the coffee table or losing them in the couch Nov 07 09:29:49 * spikebike as well Nov 07 09:30:07 'night people Nov 07 09:30:12 night Nov 07 09:30:17 s/sleep/go to bed/ Nov 07 09:30:28 s/go to bed/play with infobot/ Nov 07 09:30:32 'night Nov 07 09:30:43 * RyeBrye kicks infobot Nov 07 09:30:49 you there? Nov 07 09:30:53 s/there/stupid/ Nov 07 09:30:53 RyeBrye meant: you stupid? Nov 07 09:31:10 Ah, cheap thrills... thanks infobot Nov 07 09:32:09 * RyeBrye just got swetlands joke about the keys. then realizes he's really tired. Nov 07 09:32:47 it was a really bad joke Nov 07 09:32:55 I appreciated it Nov 07 09:33:05 s/appreciated it/infobot is stupid ha ha ha/ Nov 07 09:33:05 RyeBrye meant: I infobot is stupid ha ha ha Nov 07 09:33:35 groobot: don't crash. Nov 07 09:33:35 *** Signoff: Groobot (EOF From client) Nov 07 09:33:36 he can't follow instructions yet. Nov 07 09:33:43 :) Nov 07 09:34:25 (who owns infobot?) Nov 07 09:34:31 Tim somebody Nov 07 09:34:43 * umdk1d3 dislikes bots Nov 07 09:34:46 infobot: who are you? Nov 07 09:34:48 RyeBrye: what are you talking about? Nov 07 09:34:52 shouldn't even need to issue a separate dev version, just a slightly harder to enable option in the settings to average users don't mess with it accidentally Nov 07 09:35:07 to/so Nov 07 09:35:09 true Nov 07 09:35:44 all it really is a a chown/chmod mode fux Nov 07 09:36:00 or... mounting /data without nosuid would work for me Nov 07 09:36:15 yeah, quite a few ways to do it Nov 07 09:36:29 all pretty easy to add as a setting Nov 07 09:36:48 Yes, lets write a patch for our fork of android ;) Nov 07 09:37:00 infobot: you want to write that? Nov 07 09:37:00 heck even if you want to track devs, add it as a uniquely signed key to enable the setting activated by an assigned dev code Nov 07 09:37:06 RyeBrye: data can be ext2? Nov 07 09:37:20 ? no - /data is yaffs2 Nov 07 09:37:50 oh, not sd card Nov 07 09:38:12 infobot: why are you so slow? Nov 07 09:38:13 why not? Nov 07 09:38:26 you couldn't put a generic fs on /data without some kinda of block translation layer Nov 07 09:38:42 right Nov 07 09:38:51 you could use ext2/3/etc on the sdcard if you built it into the kernel (might want to tweak the automounter to try mounting that too) Nov 07 09:39:01 avoid tffs good Nov 07 09:39:13 how can ext2/3 use an mtd Nov 07 09:39:30 with ftl Nov 07 09:39:32 I was going to use reiserfs - but my wife has to use the phone on occasion Nov 07 09:40:00 infobot: you are good for cheap thrills Nov 07 09:40:01 I think you lost me on that one, RyeBrye Nov 07 09:40:13 s/cheap thrills/mild amusement/ Nov 07 09:40:13 RyeBrye meant: infobot: you are good for mild amusement Nov 07 09:40:35 oh wow.. Nov 07 09:40:37 "De la Vega said AT&T continues to look at Google's Android operating system but is not prepared to make any moves to carry any Android phones. He said the platform is still evolving and needs to open up even more to offer a wider array of non-Google applications." Nov 07 09:40:48 WTF? Nov 07 09:40:53 now there's someone that doesn't get Android Nov 07 09:40:59 I just don't get how loop (block layer) also supports yaffs2 Nov 07 09:41:23 and that was AT&T's CEO Nov 07 09:41:40 "yeah, it needs to open up more. They should follow Apple's example in that regard. I'd send them documentation on how to do it, but Apple made me sign an NDA about it." Nov 07 09:43:03 infobot: what's up? Nov 07 09:43:04 Up is the direction away from the central point of gravity. Nov 07 09:43:10 then again, if he's making statements like that, either he's willfully trying to play andoroid down by spreading misinformation, or Google needs to do a better job of educating carrier CEO'ds Nov 07 09:43:29 infobot: Who should win the world series? Nov 07 09:43:47 infobot: you dig android? Nov 07 09:43:48 he's looking it up Nov 07 09:43:53 infobot: you like inquieries? Nov 07 09:44:01 infobot: can you pick up my dry cleaning? Nov 07 09:44:09 infobot: lol Nov 07 09:44:10 [lol] stands for Laughing Out Loud. It is grammatically incorrect to use LOL in the first person; use 'heh' or 'haha' instead. If you want to use LOL, do '/me lol' instead. Nov 07 09:44:24 infobot: What team should win the world series? Nov 07 09:44:31 :( Nov 07 09:44:40 infobot: obama Nov 07 09:44:42 i heard obama is "the better choice at this point." Nov 07 09:44:54 infobot: Android Nov 07 09:44:55 i guess android is an Open Handset Alliance Project by Google or an alleged Open Source phone software stack that's really not open. http://code.google.com/android/, or if it's sometime actually freed, someone might port it on the neo, but the provided binaries are incompatible Nov 07 09:44:55 s/infobot/your mom/ Nov 07 09:44:56 RyeBrye meant: your mom: can you pick up my dry cleaning? Nov 07 09:45:06 infobot: pebkac Nov 07 09:45:07 PEBKAC: Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair. Nov 07 09:45:13 infobot: omgwtfbbq Nov 07 09:45:14 omgwtfbbq is, like, Oh man guys, where's the freakin' barbeque? Nov 07 09:45:19 infobot: haha Nov 07 09:45:21 I call that haha Nov 07 09:45:22 infobot: EBCDIC Nov 07 09:45:30 stumped him! =D Nov 07 09:45:48 infobot: abcd Nov 07 09:45:49 The ABCD tones are used in the U.S. military telephone network (AutoVon) amongst other things. A - Flash, B - Flash override priority, C - Priority communication, D - Priority override Nov 07 09:45:56 * RyeBrye bed Nov 07 09:46:17 infobot: bedtime Nov 07 09:46:18 well, bedtime is set to be 9:46:18 ryebrye so get to bed! Nov 07 09:46:18 infobot: is nice Nov 07 09:46:24 infobot: testtesttesttest Nov 07 09:46:36 icles Nov 07 09:46:39 infobot: iphone Nov 07 09:46:40 iSmoke, b*tch! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg1ckCkm8YI Nov 07 09:46:57 infobot: android Nov 07 09:46:58 extra, extra, read all about it, android is an Open Handset Alliance Project by Google or an alleged Open Source phone software stack that's really not open. http://code.google.com/android/, or if it's sometime actually freed, someone might port it on the neo, but the provided binaries are incompatible Nov 07 09:47:10 =O misinformation Nov 07 09:47:23 infobot: bush Nov 07 09:47:25 ooooh Bush me no likey bring on the tile baby... wanna borrow my razor.... Nov 07 09:47:33 infobot: infobot Nov 07 09:47:34 umdk1d3, I love abuse, feed me!, or an interactive bot that can learn all sorts of information (http://www.infobot.org/), or updated sources at http://infobot.sf.net/ Nov 07 09:48:17 infobot: maven Nov 07 09:48:19 i heard maven is a project build tool at http://maven.apache.org Nov 07 09:48:34 infobot: tobofni Nov 07 09:48:56 interesting Nov 07 09:48:59 infobot: muthu Nov 07 09:49:02 infobot: TWAIN Nov 07 09:49:04 from memory, twain is (Toolkit Without An Interesting Name) This is a standard set for scanners to allow them to have a standard interface to software. This allows the use of your favorite graphics package with your favorite scanner without worrying if one will support the other. As long as both are TWAIN-complaint they will work together. Check out www.twain.org for much more information. Nov 07 09:49:16 infobot: umdk1d3 Nov 07 09:49:16 i never knew thats what twain stood for Nov 07 09:49:20 haha Nov 07 09:51:10 that's not right Nov 07 09:51:27 infobot: OMFUG Nov 07 09:51:35 :( Nov 07 09:51:39 and if I knew I have now forgotten Nov 07 09:56:24 how can the world's information be organized if it is forgotten? Nov 07 09:57:05 it never stood for anything? the wikimedia fnd and the linked artucle says Nov 07 09:57:06 the internet doesn't forget Nov 07 09:58:37 you can clear the data for the preinstalled apps from settings... is there anyway to do this for apps from the market without uninstalling them? Nov 07 10:01:25 infobot; zodttd Nov 07 10:21:39 got one and im g33ked Nov 07 11:01:21 hmm, ok, it looks like my irc client was offline for a couple of hours.. so google submitted patch for the root hack yes? solving flash_image problem then? =P Nov 07 11:01:33 i wonder how fast that patch will be out on the phones Nov 07 11:36:57 WEAK. Nov 07 12:01:25 "for example change the standard white background image to a "Hello Kitty" background image" <--who wrote this line to the docs? That's exactly what I wanted to do :P Nov 07 12:09:43 cmonex: can they force you to update? Nov 07 12:10:04 yay, i crashed com.android.phone again. Nov 07 12:10:25 smtp server got backed up, and it took 8hours to get 48 text messages at once Nov 07 12:10:36 lemme tell you it hated that. Nov 07 12:13:42 so i suspect my program is having the same problems as the built in alarm does Nov 07 12:13:43 :( Nov 07 12:14:09 rreck: no, but i'm thinking of people who didn't buy one yet. Nov 07 12:14:28 (such as myself... will soon get my hands on one, but who knows if it will already be patched up) Nov 07 12:15:03 rreck: when i said "no", i meant oyu can always prevent it even if they try to force you Nov 07 12:15:43 i would imagine an easy way to prevent is if your custom recovery doesn't accept anything not signed by your own key :shrug: Nov 07 12:20:25 i think i have the same problem that the built in alarm does grrrrrr Nov 07 12:20:28 stupid wakelocks Nov 07 12:28:19 does anyone think a phone case with a magnet can hurt the phone at all? Nov 07 12:28:34 probably the compass Nov 07 12:28:38 rreck it messes with the compass, that's all Nov 07 12:29:02 but if i take it OUT of the case it should be ok Nov 07 12:29:03 does anyone use quicksilver? Nov 07 12:29:06 and work Nov 07 12:29:11 no Nov 07 12:29:24 you broke it Nov 07 12:29:25 or one of those app launchers wher eyou hit a hotkey and type some text and it brings up stuff Nov 07 12:29:26 wouldnt be permenant right ? Nov 07 12:29:48 rreck, you have to reorient the compass, which means waving the phone around like a nutcase for a few minutes in figure 8's at different angles Nov 07 12:30:32 if you don't use an app that uses the compass, you don't have to bother Nov 07 12:32:36 just took the screen protector off my phone Nov 07 12:32:43 which means today will be the first time i drop it :( Nov 07 12:33:43 i bet the gps uses the compass, do you think? Nov 07 12:34:16 ok maybe the magnet closure case is a bad idea Nov 07 12:34:25 i need a case now too Nov 07 12:34:47 if i install telnetd cant every idiot in the world get in? Nov 07 12:35:57 what is the difference between class 2 SDHC and class 4? Nov 07 12:36:23 youre on a google related chatroom, google it :) Nov 07 12:37:18 transfer rate, ok sorry Nov 07 12:37:31 anyone from the US currently awake? can you confirm that G1 direct socket connections work on T-mobile? (j2me problem.. some us carriers block socket access and only allow to use http apn..) Nov 07 12:38:08 tauno, how can i easily check Nov 07 12:38:08 tauno: how would i check that? Nov 07 12:38:34 ...that's the hard question :) Nov 07 12:39:10 what is a "direct socket connection"? Nov 07 12:39:18 socketconnection to an arbitrary port? Nov 07 12:39:39 i think he just means are they filtering ports Nov 07 12:39:41 so, as opposed to a transparent proxy? or what? Nov 07 12:40:26 I mean does Socket.connect(..) work Nov 07 12:40:44 tauno from the device or to the device Nov 07 12:41:07 from device Nov 07 12:41:59 to another porst than 80 :) Nov 07 12:42:18 cool might be releasing my third market program Nov 07 12:42:26 i fear this one is gonna get reallllly panned Nov 07 12:42:34 well, outbound ssh on non port 80 worked Nov 07 12:42:35 cause im probably the only one who will find use Nov 07 12:42:37 I heard that some operators APNs filter everything that's not http (eg port 80 etc) Nov 07 12:42:57 tauno, no we do have other ports open/available Nov 07 12:43:26 I don't know if it's only a standard set such as ftp(21), 8080, ..etc Nov 07 12:43:36 or if it's a wide range Nov 07 12:43:57 but we're not limited to only port 80 Nov 07 12:44:01 I haven't checked exhaustively, but I believe outbound is unfiltered Nov 07 12:44:03 tauno: in the UK they (tmobile) filter out certain ports and leave all others - FTP, IRC, MSN, and most other chat programs are blocked. Nov 07 12:44:11 I need to have acess to >9000 range.. that's why I'm asking Nov 07 12:44:19 i think they may filter outbound port 25 Nov 07 12:44:20 tauno: however for a bit more you can have an unfiltered package Nov 07 12:44:34 filter, not block Nov 07 12:44:38 have some ruleset on it Nov 07 12:49:56 thanks! Nov 07 13:33:17 hello Nov 07 13:33:55 hi Nov 07 13:34:37 bloo, I am Japanese Nov 07 13:34:38 hi Nov 07 13:34:58 惞ć‚øļ¼Ÿ Nov 07 13:35:01 I am first contact in this channel Nov 07 13:35:11 Japanese ok? Nov 07 13:35:20 would prefer english Nov 07 13:35:44 ok for me but my japanese is very bad :P Nov 07 13:36:23 I had been to kansai open source 2008 in osaka,japan Nov 07 13:36:31 today Nov 07 13:36:56 and i had found andoroid booth today Nov 07 13:39:38 yorosiku m(_ _)m Nov 07 13:39:54 licksjp: was there any information about japanese device with android? Nov 07 13:41:24 there aren't Japandevice it Nov 07 13:41:46 but I try to develop the emulater,i think Nov 07 13:42:43 I know that the T-Mobile G1 (android device in USA) can display japanese characters in emails and on websites Nov 07 13:43:06 thoraxe, can you tell me more about that? Nov 07 13:43:17 I want to have it be able to display japanese characters Nov 07 13:43:27 oh and btw, anybody know a good screen protector for G1? Nov 07 13:43:40 Hiro2: a friend in japan sent an email in japanese to me, and the kanji/kana all displayed properly Nov 07 13:43:49 Hiro2: i do not think you can WRITE japanese yet, only display Nov 07 13:44:05 thoraxe: e-mail to your gmail? Nov 07 13:44:27 yes to gmail Nov 07 13:44:35 i have not tested in the regular e-mail app yet Nov 07 13:44:45 i'm opening http://auctions.yahoo.co.jp now in the browser Nov 07 13:44:51 thoraxe: i see, i wish someone can write an app so we could write japanese Nov 07 13:45:07 Hiro2: it would probably be easier to port something existing Nov 07 13:45:15 like take SCIM from Linux and port it for android Nov 07 13:45:21 but that would still probably be very difficult Nov 07 13:45:46 most input editors i have used also require you to write in romaji and then convert to kanji/kana Nov 07 13:45:53 I try to make develop enviroment in my PC Nov 07 13:46:25 thoraxe: plus since it's to a limited audience, im sure not many will like to develop an app huh? Nov 07 13:46:29 later Nov 07 13:46:58 Hiro2: it's especially limited because right now you're only dealing with an audience of japanese-literates in the USA who would use it with any frequency Nov 07 13:47:07 Hiro2: but i don't think there is anything for blackberry or iphone either Nov 07 13:48:03 thoraxe: are you japanese? Nov 07 13:48:46 Hiro2: no, i'm american. i studied japanese for 2.5 years at Columbia University and then I spent 6 weeks at å›½éš›ć‚­ćƒŖć‚¹ćƒˆę•™å¤§å­¦ for a summer program Nov 07 13:49:01 and i've stayed in touch with japanese friends when i can by email and IM and stuff Nov 07 13:49:39 now i'm in Atlanta and the japanese population is not so big, and i've lost touch with some of my friends, so it's kinda hard to keep up my skill Nov 07 13:49:42 :( Nov 07 13:49:43 i see Nov 07 13:49:52 haha Nov 07 13:49:54 i see what you mean Nov 07 13:52:07 i think everyone should just speak in numbers! Nov 07 13:52:42 bloo: that would be difficult. english seems to work OK as the universal language so far. I wonder if we will see something firefly-esque in the future though with the chinese population being so large Nov 07 13:54:05 bloo: numbers, in which language? ;) Nov 07 13:57:24 Hiro2: the browser on my G1 will not open www.google.co.jp or auctions.yahoo.co.jp - it just stalls Nov 07 13:57:34 i'll try to find a non .co.jp site that has japanese Nov 07 13:58:02 thoraxe: let me try, but www.yahoo.co.jp worked for me Nov 07 13:58:21 Hiro2: www.silkroad-jp.com didnt' work either. i'll try yahoo Nov 07 13:58:27 Hiro2: are you using a G1 device? Nov 07 13:58:48 thoraxe: yes Nov 07 13:58:57 Hiro2: hmm Nov 07 13:58:58 thoraxe: actuion works also Nov 07 13:59:07 weird... mine will load the first little bit and then stall Nov 07 13:59:21 thoraxe: hmm Nov 07 13:59:29 Hiro2: has your device been updated? Nov 07 13:59:32 thoraxe: well, i gtg work. hopefully someone will invenst irc for g1? Nov 07 13:59:37 i just got a replacement yesterday Nov 07 13:59:42 Hiro2: hm Nov 07 13:59:42 ok ttyl Nov 07 13:59:48 thoraxe: i got mine few days ago Nov 07 13:59:48 IRC not going to work natively Nov 07 13:59:57 at least at the moment Nov 07 13:59:59 ic Nov 07 14:00:03 you can use irc via connectbot Nov 07 14:00:04 need ident Nov 07 14:00:08 ssh into a server and then run irc Nov 07 14:00:13 can't listen on port 113 Nov 07 14:00:14 michaelnovakjr: you can't irc without ident? Nov 07 14:00:17 the markey is soooo buggy Nov 07 14:00:20 market Nov 07 14:00:21 not freenode at least Nov 07 14:00:28 freenode requires ident Nov 07 14:00:28 i cant belive google released this Nov 07 14:00:45 i was working on an IRC client Nov 07 14:00:58 i'm on R19 still... is there a way to force an update request? Nov 07 14:01:06 i put it on hold.... if they give apps access to ports < 1024 i'll continue it Nov 07 14:01:19 michaelnovakjr: couldn't you write some weird local proxy? Nov 07 14:01:23 no, never mind Nov 07 14:01:26 that would require access Nov 07 14:01:29 hehe Nov 07 14:01:30 novak, its probably a root access issue? Nov 07 14:01:43 michaelnovakjr: if you have no access to <1024 how does connectbot work? Nov 07 14:01:49 bloo, userspace doesn;t have access to ports < 1024 Nov 07 14:01:49 somehow I'm on freenode without ident Nov 07 14:01:51 thor: for listening Nov 07 14:01:58 thoraxe: because it doesn't listen Nov 07 14:02:04 oh ok, outgoing is fine? Nov 07 14:02:07 yes Nov 07 14:02:15 its listening for incoming connections Nov 07 14:02:18 i am behind a firewall and i don't believe i have 113 open Nov 07 14:02:18 that is the issue Nov 07 14:02:23 and i am connected to freenode Nov 07 14:02:35 how can i check if ident is working? Nov 07 14:02:52 are you on windows or linux Nov 07 14:02:55 maybe the router handles it? Nov 07 14:02:59 michaelnovakjr: irssi on linux Nov 07 14:03:07 bloo: why would the router "handle" traffic on a port that is closed? Nov 07 14:03:16 block port 113 on your box and try to connect Nov 07 14:03:31 13:08 [freenode] [irc.freenode.net]: *** No identd (auth) response Nov 07 14:03:35 michaelnovakjr: it's blocked on my firewall too. Nov 07 14:03:41 still let me connect Nov 07 14:03:42 michaelnovakjr: i don't have 113 open on iptables on this box Nov 07 14:03:43 incandenza: yes, that is the message you get Nov 07 14:03:53 shrug, im not a netowkring guy ill keep quiet Nov 07 14:04:13 incandenza: what client are you using? Nov 07 14:04:22 irssi Nov 07 14:04:28 hm Nov 07 14:04:49 05:54 [freenode] !irc.freenode.net *** No identd (auth) response <-- ditto Nov 07 14:05:37 hm, i wonder if it fails over to another port Nov 07 14:06:17 maybe it's a difference between getting a RST and getting no response at all Nov 07 14:06:42 michaelnovakjr: i think it must allow no ident Nov 07 14:06:55 i've tried and it times out Nov 07 14:06:58 michaelnovakjr: because how would it find another port, and wouldn't it then say that it did get an ident response once it did? Nov 07 14:07:29 not really sure, all i know is i'm getting timed out Nov 07 14:07:49 perhaps it's for another reason? Nov 07 14:08:15 it says time out because of no ident response Nov 07 14:10:48 thoraxe, try a different port. Nov 07 14:11:02 6667 is an awkward port anymore. Nov 07 14:11:43 Damm, i'm working on IRC, but getting timed out when it can't get an ident response Nov 07 14:12:49 michaelnovakjr, try disabling your ident completely on the client Nov 07 14:12:54 *identd Nov 07 14:13:14 it may be returning a malformed response so the server's waiting for a proper one Nov 07 14:13:17 ? Nov 07 14:13:21 languish: its my G1 :) Nov 07 14:13:27 i know Nov 07 14:13:33 i can't bind the port because its not allowed Nov 07 14:13:35 but you're using your own client Nov 07 14:13:38 yes Nov 07 14:13:50 but i can't even listen on the port because the permissions don't allow it Nov 07 14:14:29 michaelnovakjr, connect your g1 to wifi, then scan or telnet to tcp 113 on your g1's ip Nov 07 14:14:36 see if it is blocked, times out, or what Nov 07 14:14:51 languish: i have confirmed with Google, my application cannot access port 113 Nov 07 14:14:57 i understand Nov 07 14:15:15 so it shouldn't matter because i can't send a response through 113 Nov 07 14:15:22 maybe 113 is returning *something* on your g1 Nov 07 14:15:29 yeah Nov 07 14:15:36 ah Nov 07 14:15:39 maybe identd is running? Nov 07 14:15:43 so the server is waiting for a proper response Nov 07 14:15:52 and not getting it, so timing out Nov 07 14:15:55 i dont think identd is included, bloo Nov 07 14:16:12 though if you rooted your G1 you can probably install it :) Nov 07 14:16:23 has anyone gotten the wifi to work with the FreeRunner? Nov 07 14:16:24 it's just something to check, based on trhe behaviour you described Nov 07 14:16:41 whats freerunner Nov 07 14:16:51 tried telnetting to 113 on the G1. just got a normal RST (connection refused) Nov 07 14:17:06 bloo: the OpenMoko.org FreeRunner Nov 07 14:17:21 incandenza, nod.. the point is to see what michaelnovakjr's getting :) Nov 07 14:17:22 but maybe the difference is, most routers silently drop the connection attempt without a RST (not sure if most routers do that or not) Nov 07 14:17:47 michaelnovakjr, also, are you connecting via 3g or ? Nov 07 14:17:55 languish: ah... you apparently think he has a magic G1 which works completely differently? :) Nov 07 14:18:02 :) Nov 07 14:18:18 damn, my G1 still hasn't arrived Nov 07 14:18:21 languish: i have attempted this on wifi Nov 07 14:18:21 incandenza, i think the server may be getting *something* that's causing it to wait for a response. Nov 07 14:18:24 so why not check Nov 07 14:18:34 ill be so pissed off if I cant root it before its updated with patch :/ Nov 07 14:18:50 michaelnovakjr, ah.. and is port 113 on yuur wifi router already forwarded to another machine? Nov 07 14:18:56 no Nov 07 14:19:11 and it IS forwarded to your g1's ip? Nov 07 14:19:23 yes Nov 07 14:19:25 hmm Nov 07 14:19:34 try not forwarding it to the g1 Nov 07 14:19:41 did that too :) Nov 07 14:19:42 kill the forward then trt connecting Nov 07 14:19:46 same thing? Nov 07 14:19:47 i can't bind the port Nov 07 14:19:50 i know Nov 07 14:19:54 it won't get any response Nov 07 14:19:58 i'm not saying to bind the port Nov 07 14:20:22 root my tooter Nov 07 14:20:22 I assume you can connect to IRC through this connection on a normal PC? what do you see about ident when you connect? Nov 07 14:20:28 you're saying you can't *get on* freenet because it's getting a timed out ident? Nov 07 14:20:35 incandenza: it works Nov 07 14:20:43 languish: yes Nov 07 14:20:52 because I'm on freenet now with no identd Nov 07 14:20:54 michaelnovakjr: but in the server messages, what does it say about ident? Nov 07 14:21:08 no response Nov 07 14:21:39 telnet returns connection refused Nov 07 14:22:18 if 113 is not getting past your router, I don't see how it can be distinguishing between your PC and the G1. maybe the problem is something else Nov 07 14:22:38 the connection is refused.... Nov 07 14:23:05 novak, try running the irc client on your pc? Nov 07 14:23:14 bloo it works Nov 07 14:23:19 the connection is refused on the device Nov 07 14:23:23 anyone else here using the Neo FreeRunner? Nov 07 14:23:24 i tested it locally on the network Nov 07 14:23:41 ok, when I connect to an ircd, even without port 113 forwarded, the server still see's my identd username (or realname not gecos) Nov 07 14:23:44 Damm: try a diferent port for what? everything works fine for me Nov 07 14:24:18 perhaps there's something your client isn't returning aside from identd that the server defaults to when you connect Nov 07 14:24:22 and it's waiting for that Nov 07 14:24:44 i say "port" your client so it can run on a pc and run it there Nov 07 14:24:58 and get that working Nov 07 14:25:25 bloo, on android you have no access to port 113, it has to do with that Nov 07 14:25:36 are you 100% sure it has to do with that? Nov 07 14:25:52 have you tried connecting to servers that dont care about identd Nov 07 14:26:02 and those are.... Nov 07 14:26:18 I think languish's explanation sounds right. maybe your client is not passing the 'real_name' field as irssi calls it (not sure where exactly this is done in the protocol) Nov 07 14:26:18 run an ircd yourself? Nov 07 14:26:40 incandenza: i can't send a response back Nov 07 14:26:46 because i can't gain access to that port Nov 07 14:26:58 so its not getting any response Nov 07 14:27:23 try irc.opera.com Nov 07 14:27:25 can you build this code to run on your PC? Nov 07 14:27:26 it doesn't do it on port 113 Nov 07 14:27:31 some googling indicates they dont care about identd Nov 07 14:27:37 languish: what port does it do it on? Nov 07 14:27:50 bloo, where i googled all night last night Nov 07 14:27:57 likely 6667 or whatever port you connected on Nov 07 14:28:13 http://my.opera.com/aleksanteri/blog/beyond-irc Nov 07 14:28:23 there's a field you're not passing somewhere Nov 07 14:28:33 well, languish the whole thing then :) Nov 07 14:28:41 i'm trying to send it on 113 Nov 07 14:28:58 let me try 6667 Nov 07 14:29:04 are you doing USER * * : Nov 07 14:29:04 NICK Nov 07 14:29:12 regardless of what happens with port 113? Nov 07 14:29:23 thats bare minimum i think to login Nov 07 14:29:26 when the ircd doesn't detect identd, it defaults to the real anme field data you entered in the client (as mirc, BitchX..etc use) Nov 07 14:29:27 try just a raw telnet to 6667 Nov 07 14:29:37 it complains about no identd, but it doesn't disconnect me Nov 07 14:29:54 however, it will disconnect after only a few seconds on a timeout, if I don't respond Nov 07 14:30:11 so I wonder if your client is just not responding, and getting a normal timeout Nov 07 14:30:31 yeah, server might even just be waiting for a pong Nov 07 14:30:35 :| Nov 07 14:30:47 i suspect it wants to pong you Nov 07 14:30:51 though I thought that comes later in the connection process Nov 07 14:30:59 i wanna pong u Nov 07 14:31:08 * languish pings bloo Nov 07 14:31:18 PONG Nov 07 14:31:21 oh baby Nov 07 14:31:24 i'm checking now Nov 07 14:31:44 it takes literally 15 seconds to drop me on a timeout. maybe the network is just too slow Nov 07 14:31:45 i feel like i could get a working irc client quicker :P Nov 07 14:32:36 so do it.. :/ Nov 07 14:32:55 it doesn't hurt to have different implimentations Nov 07 14:33:07 bloo, go a head then Nov 07 14:33:11 i don't really care Nov 07 14:33:20 i'm writiing one because no one else has Nov 07 14:33:23 if i get it working you can have my source Nov 07 14:33:37 i won't want it.... i'll have moved on Nov 07 14:33:39 :) Nov 07 14:33:52 i wont finish it, i have 3 other apps im working on first Nov 07 14:33:54 everyone is so damn concerned with rooting the phone :) Nov 07 14:34:04 novak, have you tried it in the emulator? Nov 07 14:34:19 if its network slowness that would probably work then Nov 07 14:34:53 if he's on wifi, it's unlikely network slowness, unless he's torrenting the hell outta his line Nov 07 14:34:57 mine is already rooted and blocking tmobile updates :) Nov 07 14:35:29 Laz, nice Nov 07 14:35:50 my personal guess is his client is just not responding... and the ident thing is a red herring. just my theory Nov 07 14:36:03 tis possible Nov 07 14:36:35 i think google should include a reversion option for updates, in case an update breaks something Nov 07 14:36:47 heh Nov 07 14:36:59 i think they won't, because a broken update can be fixed by resigning and reversioning the working one Nov 07 14:37:05 without allowing us to take advantage of it Nov 07 14:37:32 I mean, if say an update breaks someone's home grown app Nov 07 14:38:00 I wonder if all the updates are going to be pushed on this spread-out a schedule Nov 07 14:38:08 and they want to revert to get it working again until they can take the time to troubleshoot it for the update Nov 07 14:38:10 incandenza: generally yes Nov 07 14:38:25 languish: then they should have gotten an engineering device.. Nov 07 14:38:49 Disconnect, and exactly how do they do that? Nov 07 14:38:52 seriously.. the only real-world purpose for a downgrade is "hey they closed that security hole i was using" Nov 07 14:39:01 people are already getting frustrated now, when the update is hardly anything but bug fixes. imagine how they'll feel when it contains actual features they want :) Nov 07 14:39:08 Disconnect, I disagree Nov 07 14:39:40 i think the ota broke one of my apps Nov 07 14:39:43 one feature Nov 07 14:39:44 lol Nov 07 14:39:55 i swore i tested it and it worked before the ota Nov 07 14:39:58 if you can gen revs as often as you like (which they can) and push them as fast or slowly as you like (which they can) then preventing downgrades doesn't impact them at all. it just impacts those of us who might want to revert to an earlier version for whatever reason (and the reasons are generally not in their favor) Nov 07 14:40:02 and someone else mentioned that it worked before the ota too Nov 07 14:40:33 yah i was gonna mention that it doesn't work for me btw :/ but i'm at rc29 Nov 07 14:41:09 do the updates just happen by the phone polling a Google server? or is t-mobile involved somehow? Nov 07 14:41:12 my point is, it's anti-consumer not to give us the choice, on a supposedly "open" platform Nov 07 14:41:24 languish: yep. but the platform isn't the phone, remember? Nov 07 14:41:47 thats why we got sources before... oh. thats why the developer devices are... oh. ummm... Nov 07 14:41:54 Disconnect, agreed, but it's the OS that's part of the platform ON the phone that's being update. not the physical hardware Nov 07 14:42:07 *updated Nov 07 14:42:12 so again.. Nov 07 14:42:19 thats why its got an apache license. pretend tmob forked it for the g1 and mostly closed it. you'll feel better. Nov 07 14:42:26 cuz thats basically how the device+os is handled Nov 07 14:42:41 but the updates come from google Nov 07 14:42:52 tmo just approves or disapproves them Nov 07 14:42:58 google -> htc for signing -> tmob for distribution Nov 07 14:42:58 correct languish. Nov 07 14:43:01 and acts as the medium Nov 07 14:43:01 tmo has the final say Nov 07 14:43:30 (its possible goog or tmob has keys, but i'd doubt it. if htc holds them then they know that they can be protected..) Nov 07 14:43:33 tmo does not want a fully 'unlocked' device on their network which could allow you to cause damage/destruction/network outages. Nov 07 14:43:38 and as usual, the carrier is being anti-consumer Nov 07 14:43:54 and google is cooperating with them in this Nov 07 14:43:56 actually tmobile is fairly pro-consumer compared to AT&T or Verizon or Sprint Nov 07 14:44:10 sorry, I don't believe in "lesser evil" Nov 07 14:44:13 evil is eveil Nov 07 14:44:16 *evil Nov 07 14:44:20 and stupid is stupid Nov 07 14:44:24 clearly Nov 07 14:44:24 Damm: hahahahahaha no they aren't. Nov 07 14:44:48 Disconnect, and how is that? Nov 07 14:44:50 Right, and name calling is what? Nov 07 14:45:17 Damm: i was amused as hell to see all the 'outrage' over the iphone being locked down "to protect the consumers" (before appstore etc) when tmob makes a policy of - on every handset before this one - preventing 3rd party apps from being able to use the net. (no gmail, no gmaps, no im clients... nothing.) Nov 07 14:45:39 Disconnect, and do you know why? Nov 07 14:45:49 and actually your incorrect Nov 07 14:46:04 T-Mobile has not stopped Opera Mini, Google Maps, most of their devices include an IM Client. Nov 07 14:46:05 users should be given the option of keeping their device "locked down" for security or "open" for their own purposes Nov 07 14:46:13 and your always welcome to install a Gmail j2me client. Nov 07 14:46:42 T-Mobile also is more then willing to help you setup your 3rd party handset you bought from China, and make it work on their network Nov 07 14:46:48 can you say the same of AT&T? Sprint? Nov 07 14:46:55 Damm: actually, i tried to upgrade the wif 3 times (and sign 2 year contracts) and 3 times her basic candybar (non-free even - $50-$100 after subsidies) phone couldn't touch the net Nov 07 14:46:59 What do I care about att/sprint? Nov 07 14:47:07 I'm dealing with t-mobile Nov 07 14:47:21 and at&t has historically been great to those people i know who imported phones, although i've never tried it personally Nov 07 14:47:22 I don't give a crap about carriers that do not have android devices Nov 07 14:47:22 Disconnect, the problem is your cheap then. Nov 07 14:47:28 languish: in a way it almost is that way, though--if not advertised. it's not like the whole 'run telnetd' thing was particularly difficult to discover :) Nov 07 14:47:47 AT&T has a pretty standard policy for non AT&T phones... "It may work, it may not... who knows" Nov 07 14:47:49 incandenza :) Nov 07 14:47:51 wait. so because 90% of their handsets are locked and the final 10% isn't they somehow don't sell locked-down handsets? I'm confused.. Nov 07 14:48:06 s/isn't/aren't/ infobot shut your piehole Nov 07 14:48:10 T-Mobile sells cheap phones Nov 07 14:48:31 you cannot compare a 50$ Candybar phone to the G1 Nov 07 14:48:32 Damm: its not a lack of support. standard j2me apps. its permissions. it wasn't signed so it got no access. Nov 07 14:48:50 hugs guise Nov 07 14:48:51 Disconnect, most devices should allow a properly signed j2me app to be installed. Nov 07 14:48:57 all the PDA-style phones I've had from them werent locked down :/ Nov 07 14:49:00 installed, sure. run? sure. connect to the net? no Nov 07 14:49:17 right, if you have the free t-zones you are locked to the T-Zones Deck Nov 07 14:49:25 if you have the 5.99 T-Mobile web you can surf the web, blah blah Nov 07 14:49:38 then the only next step up was T-Mobile Internet for 19.99 Nov 07 14:49:52 however the plans are changing for T-Mobile, with web n go? (or is it web and walk) Nov 07 14:49:55 i forget Nov 07 14:49:56 this has no bearing on the point at hand.. Nov 07 14:50:06 but nice digression Nov 07 14:50:26 Damm: it wasn't plan problems either, we were paying $20 (and to be sure we slapped her sim into my phone and it worked) Nov 07 14:50:28 however, I don't understand how T-Mobile is anti-consumer... T-Mobile is like a slum lord, selling you what you want for dirt cheap... you take it, and then you bitch Nov 07 14:50:49 I don't see t-mobile the same way you do Nov 07 14:50:51 Disconnect, cheap crappy phone, big shock... T-Mobile loves Samsung Nov 07 14:51:15 sounds like americans have it really bad to me Nov 07 14:51:17 damn, are you in the US, or Europe, or? Nov 07 14:51:21 and most Samsungs are a piece of crap to me. They don't do this, they don't do that. Nov 07 14:51:24 languish, US Nov 07 14:51:27 don't let the hostname fool you Nov 07 14:51:30 again.. its not the phone capabilities. its the security that -tmobile- puts on it. thats my point. tmobile said "i don't want 3rd party apps running on this phone." you could open the app details and see the greyed out permissions box. Nov 07 14:51:42 I was asking because of your attitude, not hostname Nov 07 14:51:51 in the UK t-mobile dont lock down their smartphones at all Nov 07 14:52:02 nobody does, except the iPhone Nov 07 14:52:08 ali1234: what about the candybar phones? Nov 07 14:52:14 Disconnect, if T-Mobile says that they're locking down their phones... you need to ask for their supervisor. Nov 07 14:52:26 because the person your talking to is an idiot. Nov 07 14:52:36 there are different levels of "locking down" a phone Nov 07 14:53:05 languish, sorry i've worked for t-mobile in the past and i've seen their attitudes and what they do to try and make the consumer happy... I've also dealt with AT&T Nov 07 14:53:19 Damm: we did. i spent 3 hours talking to supervisors, 2nd level support, etc. the final answer was "oh, wait, you want to run something from the net? sure games work fine but no, gmail won't work because it can't talk to the net." Nov 07 14:53:25 I have primarily unlocked phones from China, and T-Mobile is gracious about setting those up... where AT&T is .. Nov 07 14:53:28 gah Nov 07 14:53:37 painful, total lack of details... they won't even tell me the MMSC Nov 07 14:54:01 Disconnect, *sigh* sounds like a problem with T-Mobile's stupid proxy server as usual. Nov 07 14:54:09 Damn, see you keep mentioning other carriers, what do I care about other carriers? They don't carry google android devices (yet) Nov 07 14:54:14 (2-3 hours on 611, an hour in the store while they proved - to their satisfaction - that it was not gonna work even though it should. ended up with him on talking to support, put -his- sim in with full-everythin gplan, opened the web browser and it worked, installed gmail and it didn't work..) Nov 07 14:54:14 change the port on the proxy from 9201 to 8080 and it works. Nov 07 14:54:32 hey, guys.. your operator dominated world seems like a lot of fun... I'm quite happy now that there are no big operators here who restrict/allow stuff etc. Nov 07 14:54:40 I don't compare one carrier to another in these situations, I look at what the carrier I'm dealing with is or os not doing. Nov 07 14:54:44 Damm: again, no it wasn't. you could see it in the security settings for the j2me app. Nov 07 14:54:48 languish, focus. Nov 07 14:55:01 Disconnect, which app? gmail? Nov 07 14:55:05 i give up mike novak wins Nov 07 14:55:23 yep Nov 07 14:55:39 long-click on it (or was it a menu button? either way) to properties and scroll down to permissions Nov 07 14:55:42 damn, I'm still focused on the point that was originally made, that you keep digressing from. Nov 07 14:56:03 (hey, it just occured to me.. j2me + gmail-mobile == multiple gmail accounts, kinda. without the evil imap noise.) Nov 07 14:56:19 gmail is .. annoying Nov 07 14:56:24 their imap hack is .. Nov 07 14:56:38 languish, I forgot what the original point was other than t-mobile is evil. Nov 07 14:56:44 they're working on it Nov 07 14:56:54 languish: they're working on lots of stuff.. Nov 07 14:56:55 (the email app) Nov 07 14:57:05 rofl... they can keep working on it... as one person I know says 4/5 times you can connect to imap Nov 07 14:57:10 then the 1 time it fails miserably Nov 07 14:57:52 What I believe shouldn't have been done, was sell a beta product to the public as a 1.0 retail release Nov 07 14:58:20 I know quite a few average joes that love the phone, but are getting frustrated over problems with it Nov 07 14:58:21 * jbq takes offense Nov 07 14:58:41 I'm annoyed that the camera is basically useless Nov 07 14:58:41 languish, yes, and no... I like that they released an unfinished product that we can help finish. Nov 07 14:58:47 it's cool being able to scan barcodes and all Nov 07 14:58:53 but it's such as shitty, shitty camera.... Nov 07 14:59:04 languish: you only have to look at the market for WM based smartphones to know that people who buy this kind of thing arn't looking for a stable reliable phone Nov 07 14:59:05 vol, have you been able to? I can't get the camera to take even a decent picture worth reviewing. Nov 07 14:59:10 damn, they should have released it as a "developers heaven" Nov 07 14:59:10 vol thats quite common for Qualcomm based phones... Nov 07 14:59:28 Damm: the barcode scanning works well enough, if you have decent lighting and spend a few seconds Nov 07 14:59:36 vol, ah Nov 07 14:59:40 well it's a CMOS Camera Nov 07 14:59:41 but it's so incredibly bad for actual pictures : ( Nov 07 14:59:42 something as restricted as the G1 doesnt seem like a developers heaven to me, languish Nov 07 14:59:57 Chainfire, nah that's really the Openmoko Nov 07 15:00:05 the G1 is more of the wannabe hackers delight. Nov 07 15:00:15 people who want something different from WM, and Blackberry Nov 07 15:00:18 Yeah, enjoy the openmoko Nov 07 15:00:19 myeah but thats the Openmoko isnt really a real world device Nov 07 15:00:25 the phone that does not reliably make to take phone calls Nov 07 15:00:31 s/to/or/ Nov 07 15:00:32 vol meant: the phone that does not reliably make or take phone calls Nov 07 15:00:34 We're working on making it easier for the OpenMoko people to contribute their changes back to the main Android source tree. Nov 07 15:00:37 ali1234, what i've been seeing in the t-mobile stores, are "people" that see a new phone some of the saleds reps are excited about, or some techy people they know are excitied about, and so they buy it for thmeselves and their families because it has "google" and "email" and Im" Oh my! Nov 07 15:00:50 ugh Nov 07 15:00:52 speaking of which Nov 07 15:00:59 they need to shoot whoever did the marketing campaign for the G1 Nov 07 15:01:04 "Hey guys, buy the G1! It has google search!" Nov 07 15:01:08 "... yeah! Google!" Nov 07 15:01:13 "... you know ..... google." Nov 07 15:01:20 "yeah, you can, you know, search for things." Nov 07 15:01:26 "you can search. that's pretty awesome right?" Nov 07 15:01:27 yep, the google name is selling it to the general public Nov 07 15:01:44 if you just called it the htc t-mobile android g1, no one would care much Nov 07 15:01:47 (ignore the compass, accelerometer, gps, 3G data, wifi) Nov 07 15:01:57 but no.. it's the "google phone" Nov 07 15:02:11 languish: i love how you put "people" in inverted commas like they are somehow less than human or something :) Nov 07 15:02:16 and google really should have been more responsible about it Nov 07 15:02:45 ali1234, I put google in quotations in reference to your statement about people Nov 07 15:03:05 languish: you only have to look at the market for WM based smartphones to know that people who buy this kind of thing arn't looking for a stable reliable phone Nov 07 15:03:28 because people who are buying it ARE buying it as a retail product, which they expect to be stable and work Nov 07 15:04:09 ... it's been fun in here, but clearly too much crap about 'it doesn't do this, or that...' this is evil Nov 07 15:04:12 cya Nov 07 15:04:29 when it really should have been specifically sold to people with the understanding it's primarily for the more technical consumers who may want to develop for it, until it's better fleshed out Nov 07 15:04:54 truth hurts Nov 07 15:04:55 :| Nov 07 15:05:01 i dunno, my WM devices are pretty stable :/ Nov 07 15:05:14 more stable than most of the 'dumbphones' I've had, at least :) Nov 07 15:05:28 * languish wasn't walking aboit winmo, just the g1 Nov 07 15:05:39 that's completely unpossible :) Nov 07 15:05:54 anyone bumped into a gpl (or similiar) license ocr lib? (to be used with 'write on the screen' text input) Nov 07 15:06:50 use google hehe Nov 07 15:07:13 http://swik.net/OCR+gpl Nov 07 15:07:14 vol: they push search cuz its the only part that works reliably :) Nov 07 15:08:05 Disconnect, lol Nov 07 15:08:26 it doesn't help that t-mobile's netwark is having growing pains in some areas Nov 07 15:08:36 * Disconnect does think walmart is gonna prove to be the worst thing that could happen to android in general and the g1 in particular Nov 07 15:08:54 Jagger_7: ive done it, alot :P guess ill make my own Nov 07 15:09:29 unless they've got a ton of huge fixes lined up in secret somewhere (sure its possible but i doubt it) .. camera doesn't work, gps mostly works (but takes up to 15 minutes to get a hit if its moving..not so good for use in the car..) etc Nov 07 15:10:08 which reminds me Nov 07 15:10:11 Chainfire: Nov 07 15:10:19 WM is stable as long as you dont take a wm6.1 device.. Nov 07 15:10:27 WM6.1 is really sucky Nov 07 15:10:37 now, that's my personal opinion and experience of course Nov 07 15:10:50 I have to swap my g1 for a replacement anyway. The camera button is almost impossible to use. Wife's works fine. silly htc quality control Nov 07 15:12:00 hi Nov 07 15:12:04 Disconnect: It doesn't take me longer than 30 seconds to get a GPS fix if I'm outside Nov 07 15:12:07 cmonex> your experience is different than mine then... and thx for agreeing with me on the forum ;) Nov 07 15:12:10 vol: in a moving car? Nov 07 15:12:13 hehe np Chainfire :) Nov 07 15:12:13 yes Nov 07 15:12:19 I pulled mine out on the way to lunch yesterda Nov 07 15:12:22 I can't say I've ever had problems with pocketpc/winmo, but mostly because I rarely used said devices as anything other than pda's and wifi testers Nov 07 15:12:32 btw Chainfire.. before wm6.1 i never understood people complaining.. Nov 07 15:12:32 I also thoroughly enjoy the cell tower location feature Nov 07 15:12:38 since it doesn't chew battery Nov 07 15:12:38 but i'll fix this .. Nov 07 15:13:02 I've found the gps to work rather well for me outdoors Nov 07 15:13:04 dunno, i'll try it again not on the highway. but last time i used it on the highway it took -forever- to get a hit. we were almost to our destination when it finally found us. Nov 07 15:13:37 Disconnect, did you let the g1 sit in full view of the sky for awhile with gps truned on before using gps? Nov 07 15:13:45 *turned Nov 07 15:13:57 i agree that sitting still it seems good. it can place me in the office anywhere within about 10-15' of the window (which is equiv or better than the iphone 3g, fyi. or at least the one who sits next to me. and only slightly worse than the e90, which had viciously-good gps reception) Nov 07 15:14:15 languish: that doesn't count as "acquiring a fix while moving" does it? Nov 07 15:14:35 I hopped a bus the other day to do some reading while the G1 tracked via gps. It worked rather precisely Nov 07 15:15:12 same when I took a taxi Nov 07 15:15:17 right but it sounds like you turned it on and then got on the bus after you had a fix. try pulling it out while moving and - with no fix or gps running beforehand - getting a fix. thats a different test. Nov 07 15:15:30 nod Nov 07 15:16:22 I'll be doing a master reset on my G1 before exchanging it, I'll test that then Nov 07 15:16:29 cool. Nov 07 15:16:49 i'd suspect my unit except it actually works great when it does have a fix Nov 07 15:18:23 jbq, just a note.. I'm completely for the direction google wants to go in with android. It's just some of the (perhaps necessary?) steps along the way that grate on my sensitive consumer nerves :) Nov 07 15:18:56 especially being "the guy" that so many around me whine to when these idiots buy devices I told them they shouldn't Nov 07 15:19:10 yeah, that par can suck. Nov 07 15:19:15 s/par/part/ Nov 07 15:19:16 jbq_ meant: yeah, that part can suck. Nov 07 15:20:21 * ttuttle should fix the terminal emulator widget. Nov 07 15:20:25 i think one day it'll be great. i think right now there are serious problems with core functionality that should have been solved -long- before people were talking about a release.. Nov 07 15:21:22 I think one of the gdevs mentioned they didn't exactly want to release this soon, but t-mobile did (likely to get in before the holidays and touch pro releases) Nov 07 15:21:30 "the community will fix it" works only so long as the community is the primary user, and only when the community -can- fix it. tmob and walmart (esp walmart..) are gonna change that, and whats out there now is much more the moko-model "here's a pile of stuff we kinda hacked together, now you go fix it" Nov 07 15:22:04 hey anyone got the rc30 url? Nov 07 15:22:35 Disconnect: you *want* rc30? Nov 07 15:22:41 hahaha Nov 07 15:22:41 i want the zip for rc30 Nov 07 15:22:47 different animal entirely Nov 07 15:22:51 Disconnect: ahh Nov 07 15:22:52 What is different in 30 Nov 07 15:22:54 Disconnect: what's wrong with having a community? Would you prefer a model when the platform is worked on behind closed doors? Nov 07 15:23:03 he wants to see how it's fixed and how to break it again :) Nov 07 15:23:10 languish: heh. Nov 07 15:23:32 languish: the hole is entirely closed. he'll have to start from scratch. Nov 07 15:23:48 ttuttle, yeah I read about that Nov 07 15:23:58 jbq_: the community is fine, except the community is both hamstrung (no -legit- ability to, eg, fix email app or replace the camera app.. both the lock and the onboard storage restrictions are a problem here) and its not just a developer community anymore. Nov 07 15:24:10 good luck gettin the crackers refocused on anything beyond rc29 Nov 07 15:24:33 yay Nov 07 15:24:33 languish: Nov 07 15:24:34 right, idiots like me can get a g1 Nov 07 15:24:38 there will be new crackers.. Nov 07 15:24:47 who dont have the g1 yet.. Nov 07 15:24:48 * Disconnect would have happily paid $400 for this thing (with 1 or 0 year contract) as a dev device.. but $200 (with fees) and 2 years is insane. esp if you -aren't- gonna hack on it but just want an "iphone killer" Nov 07 15:25:02 cmonex, I know :) but the initial adopters are usually the best Nov 07 15:25:27 no, not always :) Nov 07 15:25:28 the passion is different Nov 07 15:25:28 guess who boo1239 is :) Nov 07 15:25:41 cmonex, well, we'll see what revision you end up with lol Nov 07 15:25:44 i know some great people who came later to a platform Nov 07 15:25:46 * ttuttle looks at the g1 he had before launch and realizes how awesome he must be. Nov 07 15:25:53 and, they surpassed earlier adopters just fine :shrug: Nov 07 15:25:59 nod Nov 07 15:26:04 Disconnect: so, your concern is that the source code was released too early, at a point where it's not yet usable on real devices? Nov 07 15:26:22 * jbq_ is puzzled, wonders how he can push to try to make things better. Nov 07 15:26:52 i was able to connect here from the android emulator Nov 07 15:26:55 ttuttle: except now everyone has what you have ;P Nov 07 15:26:56 but no dice on the actual g1 Nov 07 15:27:14 i for one am thankful for the source, but at this stage it isnt that much use to developers as you cant replace/fix/etc. Nov 07 15:27:28 Chainfire: the source sure made it easy to make custom recovery.img Nov 07 15:27:36 though, now i made one without recompling Nov 07 15:27:39 perhaps it will help in jailbraking 30 :) Nov 07 15:27:43 just for the heck of it (patching the assembled one) Nov 07 15:28:17 yes it will probably help in jailbreaking... Nov 07 15:28:22 so that's nice. Nov 07 15:28:34 BTW - imagine if you could recompile the WM OS Nov 07 15:29:22 that'd take several cups of coffee, I imagine. Nov 07 15:29:24 imagine how great it would be just fix the latest GWES from source instead of patching it, sigh. Nov 07 15:29:38 Chainfire: heh darkforce can do it but they are not giving the stuff out Nov 07 15:30:06 well hurrah for darkforce then ... /me immediately forgets Nov 07 15:30:26 or you can join darkforce Nov 07 15:30:27 lol Nov 07 15:30:29 too many people out there with tools that refuse to share them Nov 07 15:31:13 sorry INTBOSS Nov 07 15:31:13 back now Nov 07 15:31:17 languish: they will not take new members, so no. Nov 07 15:31:20 true that Nov 07 15:31:34 jbq: my concern is that the devices were released too early and/or the source too late. Nov 07 15:31:54 AstainHellbring: they refuse to share because they are afraid they wont get new stuff. to be able to make new roms you have to be continunally receiving the new AKUs Nov 07 15:32:02 nobody picked it up and handed it to an iphone (or blackberry or wm) standard user and said "try this out" or if they did, they didn't listen. Nov 07 15:32:03 (or you can tweak older roms, but new AKU is the cool thing) Nov 07 15:32:19 things like the email app being totally broken for imap -scream- "nobody gave this a solid test" Nov 07 15:32:25 Disconnect: that's where you're making assumptions that turn out to be wrong. Nov 07 15:32:53 Disconnect: now i'm really curious too see these things in real life.. Nov 07 15:33:27 jbq: how did email escape without being able to update the server? you are saying that there was a test plan that covered that and you (generic you) just went "well.. maybe nobody will notice.." Nov 07 15:34:32 It's true that there are some pain points with some of the apps, and it's true that not all of those pain points had been fully identified before the release - but that's not enough to conclude that the code without being tested. Nov 07 15:34:35 i just connected to here from my g1 Nov 07 15:34:37 i win! Nov 07 15:35:33 I'm personally not familiar with IMAP, neither as a protocol nor as our implementation, so I can't say anything precise about it. Nov 07 15:36:09 Is there any API to get the battery life? Nov 07 15:36:14 I do know however that we have some fresh eyes looking over that code, and that this is something that we clearly want to improve. Nov 07 15:36:18 i never said "no testing" I said "rushed/poor testing". i've tried handing this to people. they open a couple windows in the browser, then hit home and it hangs for 15-45 seconds. if they don't wander off immediately they want to take a picture. if -that- doesn't discourage them they ask about email (..yeah) and so forth. there is no one app you can point to that just straight -works- Nov 07 15:36:49 Disconnect: if you think WM works any better than this you are mistaken. my WM phone arrived completely with half finished bluetooth (no headset support), alarms that just fail to go off 50% of the time, and the uncanny ability to silently drop incoming calls at random. Nov 07 15:37:12 jbq: the problem with email isn't imap IDLE support. thats a bonus that yes, should have been included, but its a missing feature. the -breakage- is the fact that in shipping retail software you can't delete messages. you can't even mark them read with any sort of reliability. (its prolly different in rc29, i moved to k-9 so..) Nov 07 15:38:29 the thing is Nov 07 15:38:34 none of our testers had these problems Nov 07 15:38:55 you simply assume we didn't test it or "poorly tested it" Nov 07 15:38:56 next time, add me to the testers list Nov 07 15:39:08 I'll break it and show you where Nov 07 15:39:13 nooo problem Nov 07 15:39:15 (and we'd have heard about it if anyone had had problems with it, because our testers are very vocal) Nov 07 15:39:22 *very* vocal Nov 07 15:39:30 (G1 has a "broken" bluetooth implementation too.. or how do you call the current state that no apps (other than googles) can use bluetooth.. it's basically useless IMO) Nov 07 15:39:44 DannyB: your testers clearly did not test imap email then. basic email app test plan is "create 2-3 accounts of each type - here are credentials. send an email - here is what it should arrive as. receive an email (testing noficcations,etcetcetc) delete an email" *** thats the break. its a -core feature-. Nov 07 15:39:46 tauno, G1's bluetooth isn't broken. It's unfinished. period Nov 07 15:39:51 again Nov 07 15:40:14 you assume becasue it does not work for you that it did not work in testing Nov 07 15:40:18 this is a wildly bad assumption Nov 07 15:40:34 G1's mono bluetooth for headsets works just fine for compatible headsets (not all headsets are compatible) Nov 07 15:40:39 you never ever tested a retail device? thats not a detailed coverage test, thats a simple integration/verification test.. Nov 07 15:40:48 dude Nov 07 15:40:53 you are stil missing it Nov 07 15:40:59 WHEN WE DID IT Nov 07 15:41:00 IT WORKED Nov 07 15:41:10 Disconnect: if you think WM works any better than this you are mistaken. my WM phone arrived completely with half finished bluetooth (no headset support) -> no headset support? I wonder how old that phone was. :) Nov 07 15:41:23 DannyB: -something- is different between what you tested successfully and what they shipped. which indicates that what you tested successfully was -not- what was shipped. which is -still- a lack of testing. Nov 07 15:41:29 no Nov 07 15:41:31 dannyb: dont get bent about people talking in IRC its not worth it Nov 07 15:41:34 languish, thats why I said "broken".. it works but only for some applications :) (for them it works just fine I guess) It's just that any other $50 device has a bluetooth API of some kind (be it jsr82 for J2ME) Nov 07 15:41:44 rreck: i just wish he wasn't so dumb :) Nov 07 15:42:11 languish: we're working hard on e.g. making the official source tree buildable for OpenMoko (as opposed to a fork), so that it's easier for enthusiasts like you to actually grab newer versions before they get on boxed devices in a retail store and give us feedback. Nov 07 15:42:12 IRC is for trolling Nov 07 15:42:28 Disconnect: okay dude, you caught us. we decided not to test the retail versions, instead testing secret versions nobody was going to use. Nov 07 15:42:35 DannyB: I dont have a G1. but surely he didnt just invent the problems. he actually met them. so how about accepting that? =) Nov 07 15:42:37 jbq, I know/understand :) Nov 07 15:42:46 DannyB: here is a thing, A. this "A" is blue. your testers look at it, and it is blue, and they check "blue". now here is the thing A production line. all the new things off the line are green. something changed.. Nov 07 15:42:51 cmonex: we do, but he claims it was due to bad testing. and it clearly wasn't Nov 07 15:43:01 DannyB: then what did happen? Nov 07 15:43:06 i see. Nov 07 15:43:10 why don't you let us find out Nov 07 15:43:13 instead of you know Nov 07 15:43:16 actually about testing, i think it is very hard to get everything fully tested Nov 07 15:43:18 continually claiming it was bad testing Nov 07 15:43:36 with you know Nov 07 15:43:38 no evidence Nov 07 15:43:54 why is arguing in IRC like being in the special olympics? because even if you "win" you are still challenged Nov 07 15:44:01 no reason to let facts get in the way of a good rant Nov 07 15:44:09 jbq, I'm not upset with the gdevs. I'm more frustrated that the business end had such desire to make this work with a carrier, they caved to an earlier than desired release to consumers Nov 07 15:44:11 every time you post a platitude from the `90s, god kills a kitten. Nov 07 15:44:15 Please, think of the domo kuns. Nov 07 15:44:17 if it worked in testing, chances are there is a version out there somewhere that works. the discussion i was seeing here (external to google, but involving google devs) was not "oh damn, thats an old build, wonder what happened" it was "hey, yeah, we really should implement that.." (again, not imap idle, but delete/read status) Nov 07 15:44:19 rreck: actually, the quote is "arguing on the intenet is like the special olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded" Nov 07 15:44:44 well im trying to soften the blow for you retards Nov 07 15:44:51 rreck: i was part of that thread ;) Nov 07 15:44:53 To switch gears a bit, has anyone had experience using gdbserver on the emulator/device? I'm having trouble using gdb to load a symbol file to actually set breakpoints. Nov 07 15:45:17 vol: I used it early on to debug some C++ stuff Nov 07 15:45:19 I was under the impression that I can use standard gdb when debugging, regardless of gdbserver version, or do I need a version that can read the arm specific executables Nov 07 15:45:29 let be honest ANYONE who bought this thing should have learned that ANYTHING on its first run is going to be buggy Nov 07 15:45:33 gdb's remote protocol is backwards compatible Nov 07 15:45:37 so it should just work Nov 07 15:45:43 regardless of gdb version you use Nov 07 15:45:47 Hmmm. Nov 07 15:45:47 rreck, you mean should have been informed. Nov 07 15:45:52 you *do* need a gdb that understands ARM Nov 07 15:45:53 DannyB: I think you need arm-eabi-gdb to read the symbols out of the ARM binaries Nov 07 15:45:54 * jbq sits back, relaxes, and enjoys the shows Nov 07 15:46:00 Let me double check and make sure symbol info was actually made. Nov 07 15:46:01 :) Nov 07 15:46:09 fadden0: ah Nov 07 15:46:09 Should be sitting next to arm-eabi-gcc and friends. Nov 07 15:46:24 ok news flash, every single product ever made was buggy when it first came out, expect this to continue you are hereby informed Nov 07 15:46:37 fadden0: well, kinda. you need it to disassemble and apply relocations. you don't actually need it for the debug info :) Nov 07 15:46:57 blergh! Why does my toolchain not have gdb : ( Nov 07 15:47:03 rreck, except that's not what consumers are told when purchasing :P Nov 07 15:47:03 * vol searches Nov 07 15:47:04 vol: that sounds odd Nov 07 15:47:20 nes flash, market dweebs lie Nov 07 15:47:21 in any case, i don't think any patches were made to gdb Nov 07 15:47:35 val: prebuilt/linux-x86/toolchain/arm-eabi-4.2.1/bin/ has it Nov 07 15:47:39 so at worst you could configure gdb with --target=arm-eabi-linux Nov 07 15:47:39 microsoft is a powerful multiuser operating system Nov 07 15:47:46 fadden0: Argh. Alright, I'll check there Nov 07 15:48:16 no, microsoft is a company.. Nov 07 15:48:22 DannyB> do you know the location to the public G1-build version of Android? Nov 07 15:48:25 im so miffed that theres no easy way to replace inlcuded apps Nov 07 15:48:27 grrr Nov 07 15:48:40 I've been told to ask swetland but he's never around :) Nov 07 15:48:45 bloo: you have root now. (and ssh if you want it.) you can replace apps :) Nov 07 15:48:50 i should have said Microsoft Windows/Vista Nov 07 15:49:02 disc, its not simple though and it means i cant really share them Nov 07 15:49:07 Chainfire: not offhand :( Nov 07 15:49:28 or where to find it then? :) Nov 07 15:49:40 rreck: well it is powerful, it is multiuser, but dont run it on anything that doesnt have xxxxxxx GB of ram and Ghz of cpu :) Nov 07 15:49:44 (vista) Nov 07 15:50:16 IMHO its a farce Nov 07 15:50:39 ..neat, something broke my rootsh Nov 07 15:51:18 did you select install at the OTA update prompt? :P Nov 07 15:51:21 works on the device but not over ssh. i wonder what i did (or what happened? hope not.) Nov 07 15:51:23 heh no prompt Nov 07 15:51:34 and i blew away my ota keys and the updater app Nov 07 15:51:50 rreck, no, please.. let's not go there Nov 07 15:51:53 (not totally blown away of course, just moved somewhere safe) Nov 07 15:52:10 disc, its blown away if root doesnt go Nov 07 15:52:12 unless they're google magic'd too Nov 07 15:52:20 disc, its blown away if root breaks Nov 07 15:52:32 well i was trying to think of the largest of marketing lies that persists despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary Nov 07 15:52:36 bloo: it enables you to work The Google Way. create and test patches, then submit and hope it gets released by tmob in under 6 months. Nov 07 15:53:29 Disconnect: I have no evidence that any patch that was submitted from the outside has been sitting unreleased for 6 months or more. Nov 07 15:54:26 jbq: tmob isn't known for doing lots of updates. (which is not a slam on them, its in their best interest - updates are always risky, and - barring the rapid security releases that have happened recently - it only makes sense to bundle them up, test them and release them on their usual slower cycle) Nov 07 15:54:42 rreck, it's your opinion against the opinion on somebody else.. nobody is right.. nobody can really "win". statements like this make things only worse :) Nov 07 15:55:12 So is Android Market an app in and of itself? Nov 07 15:55:15 there should be an easy way to install updates without waiting for OTAs Nov 07 15:55:17 Or is it a website? Nov 07 15:55:24 android market is an app Nov 07 15:55:29 theCarpenter: yes Nov 07 15:55:37 jbq: or, to rephrase, i also have no evidence that tmobile will do something unusual and risky with its new flagship device by releasing rapid and evolving updates.. Nov 07 15:55:53 So android market is an app that coems bundled with android? What's the name of it? I can't seem to find source for it anywhere Nov 07 15:55:55 Disconnect: I can agree with that. Time will tell. Nov 07 15:55:57 tauno: as things are only made worse in a form of UNIX we will be alright Nov 07 15:56:04 closest I see is something called "packageinstaller" Nov 07 15:56:06 source has not been released afaik Nov 07 15:56:11 s/as/if/ Nov 07 15:56:12 rreck meant: tauno: if things are only made worse in a form of UNIX we will be alright Nov 07 15:56:15 theCarpenter: marketplace and google* are all closed Nov 07 15:56:16 source for gmail hasnt either Nov 07 15:56:24 infobot shove a weasel in it Nov 07 15:56:29 eh, you cant use ports <1024 in Android without root, right? Nov 07 15:56:44 So does market then just call PackageInstaller to do the actual installation? Nov 07 15:56:58 has anyone retested email app in rc29? Nov 07 15:57:01 chain, yeah, but seriously how many apps need that? Nov 07 15:57:07 theCarpenter: sadly, no, it goes through a slightly different door. Nov 07 15:57:08 Chainfire: you cant use ports <1024 without root in any linux Nov 07 15:57:20 k just checking Nov 07 15:57:25 theCarpenter: my impression is market just downloads the app Nov 07 15:57:36 bloo> all the apps im interested in? Nov 07 15:57:45 chain, like hwat? Nov 07 15:57:53 Chainfire: we discussed that here yesterday evening, this is something that should probably be opened a bit. We just need to agree on a security model, and from that point it's really only a matter of writing the code. Nov 07 15:57:54 networking tools Nov 07 15:58:00 you can go out of port < 1024 Nov 07 15:58:19 thats good news jbq Nov 07 15:58:32 oyeoj: actually, the actual download is done by the download provider. Nov 07 15:58:34 jbq: so market doesn't use PackageInstaller to install apps - does it use any released source code at all? Nov 07 15:59:03 jbq> any idea about _when_ this will happen? (very roughly... weeks... months... 2010?) Nov 07 15:59:11 "If I wanted to make my own maert style app, what source code should I reference?" Nov 07 15:59:22 jbq: ok fine. it passes a link to download provider. :) Nov 07 15:59:36 *market Nov 07 15:59:58 Chainfire: it's hard to tell, it depends a lot of who is interested in contributing the change and how it fits in their priority list. Nov 07 16:00:11 ah k Nov 07 16:00:35 if you dont mind me asking, what are the security considerations in this? Nov 07 16:00:38 think I'm gonna dig in to an early lunch Nov 07 16:01:25 The path that is used by market to actually install the apk should be in the open-source tree, though I don't know off-hand where it is. I can try to look it up. Nov 07 16:01:52 jbq: are there any plans to allow package installation to the sd card? rapidly running out of space on the device Nov 07 16:01:57 not that we got root i think ill work on my swipe based web browser Nov 07 16:02:26 andatche: we're working on some plans, yes, but at this point the more we dig the harder we discover that it is. Nov 07 16:02:34 jbq: that woudl be great... reason i'm asking is i was hoping to add a reputation-based component to market, upvote/downvote style, and block installation of really downvoted apps Nov 07 16:02:36 * jbq has a hard time keeping up with the discussions. Nov 07 16:03:16 I asked what the security considerations were for <1024 port access, if that helps :P Nov 07 16:03:29 jbq: yeah, I can imagine it complicates things a bit Nov 07 16:03:37 jbq: fwiw at least a stopgap would be to do a loopback image. thats what the n8x0 is doing for swap.. Nov 07 16:03:42 i've done incredibly extensive searching through the open sourced tree, and i thought i was just missing something, and that the market and its installer source were just in some corner somewhere i couldn't find... >_< Nov 07 16:03:43 On the Market front, I know that we've discussed ways to allow a third-party market to go through the exact same codepath as market, including the ability to ask for permissions before downloading, and to uninstall applications. Nov 07 16:04:07 Disconnect: yes, that's the easy part. The hard part is that it's on removable storage. Nov 07 16:04:20 also, there was some talk about how to request a product name you may use that includes the Android name... Is that possible yet? (a web form or something?) Nov 07 16:04:44 so are ringtones and music, handle it in the same umount and/or warning path.. Nov 07 16:05:16 http://services.google.com/permissions/application Nov 07 16:05:40 you can use droid Nov 07 16:05:42 Chainfire: the security issue I'm aware of is whether it's OK for any app to bind any port, especially the standard ones -e.g. in the case where you have an app that legitimately wants to run a web server, and one that just tries to hijack port 80. Nov 07 16:05:49 android can only be used like "blablbal for Android" Nov 07 16:05:52 http://www.android.com/branding.html Nov 07 16:06:26 jbq: if i can insert a thought into that discussion (which i'm guessing is happening internally..?) this would also be a good place to add temporary permissions.. Nov 07 16:06:42 bloo> thx Nov 07 16:07:43 Disconnect: a good place for such a discussion would be one of the official mailing lists (I'd guess android-platform or android-security-discuss) Nov 07 16:08:42 jbq> while I can understand such a thing for a real computer... i think the chances are a lot bigger that an app actually wants to run something there legitimitaly than not on a phone :D Nov 07 16:08:44 jbq: you were indicating there was already an internal discussion.. "jbq(10:57am) Chainfire: we discussed that here yesterday evening, this is something that should probably be opened a bit. We just need to agree on a security model, and from that point it's really only a matter of writing the code." Nov 07 16:08:58 jbq: sorry to bother you again, but any luck finding that path in the open source tree that market actually uses to install stuff? Nov 07 16:09:31 carpenter: hook up your phone to your pc Nov 07 16:09:36 runs ddms and check logcat Nov 07 16:09:39 see what intents get run Nov 07 16:10:17 Chainfire: yes, that's why I said that we need to decide whether there's really any need for a specific security at all (e.g. whether there can be some ports that are used for mobile-specific core services and that should stay reserved for the system, like for e.g. proxy-initiated OMA push. Nov 07 16:10:36 Disconnect: actually, the discussion happened here on IRC yesterday evening. Nov 07 16:10:44 ah ok Nov 07 16:10:47 nm then :) Nov 07 16:10:59 theCarpenter: let me try to look this up Nov 07 16:11:02 well fix it, and you can add one more shop developing for Android :) Nov 07 16:11:07 bloo: i don't have a phone mate ;) Nov 07 16:11:20 * languish waits for samba to be ported to android/G1 lulz Nov 07 16:11:24 oh Nov 07 16:11:34 11-07 11:10:44.782: INFO/ActivityThread(1804): Publishing provider downloads: com.android.providers.downloads.DownloadProvider Nov 07 16:11:46 it looks like it uses downloadprovider... is that open source? Nov 07 16:11:49 android-security.. 5 members, invite only. sigh. Nov 07 16:12:00 11-07 11:11:04.302: INFO/ActivityManager(57): Stopping service: com.android.providers.downloads/.DownloadService Nov 07 16:12:00 * Disconnect applies anyway Nov 07 16:12:06 Disconnect: check android-security-discuss Nov 07 16:12:18 ahh ok cool Nov 07 16:12:32 hey check it out, already a member. :) Nov 07 16:12:35 Disconnect: i would wager that if anyone at google was discussing android security on an irc server it would be their own internal one. Nov 07 16:12:43 unix_lappy: yah me too Nov 07 16:13:10 i wanna work for goog Nov 07 16:13:11 le Nov 07 16:13:17 theCarpenter: I think that's the code that's protected by the INSTALL_PACKAGES and DELETE_PACKAGES permissions, which should be related to code that's in the open-source tree. Nov 07 16:13:59 unix_lappy: actually, there's no reason to have private discussions about security design, in fact that would hurt security more than anything else. Nov 07 16:14:32 unix_lappy: discussions about known security issues are likely to happen in private, to protect users. Nov 07 16:14:58 * Disconnect has private discussions about security design on the g1, but thats probably with exactly the opposite goal :) Nov 07 16:17:34 Disconnect: while I hope that your goals are about your private amusement (as opposed to hurting other users), the reason why you have them private is the exact same one indeed. Discussing them in the open would be like playing poker and showing your cards to everyone at the table. Nov 07 16:17:43 yah Nov 07 16:18:54 And showing your cards makes things more exciting! Nov 07 16:19:05 stupid wakelocks and keyguards! Nov 07 16:21:03 theCarpenter: from a quick grep (because I'm not familiar with that code at all), I'd suggest looking at installPackage() in frameworks/base/services/java/com/android/server/PackageManagerService.java Nov 07 16:23:20 blau: sorry, I missed your question. Yes, the download provider is open-source. http://git.source.android.com/?p=platform/packages/providers/DownloadProvider.git;a=summary Nov 07 16:23:47 jbq: i'll check it out, thanks Nov 07 16:23:50 Does anybody know how to get read of this error: [INSTALL_FAILED_SHARED_USER_INCOMPATIBLE]? Trying to install app using ANT......... Nov 07 16:24:50 I'm not an expert there, but I'd guess that you're trying to get a shared UID with a package that was signed with a different signature. Nov 07 16:25:14 (beyond that I know nothing about the signature process) Nov 07 16:27:05 you are right. jbq...... Nov 07 16:27:35 so where would i find keystore in SDK? anyone... Nov 07 16:28:09 * jbq goes for breakfast Nov 07 16:33:27 <`vip> http://androidcommunity.com/forums/f3/google-look-at-this-menu-seperated-6700/#post70599 Nov 07 16:33:34 <`vip> i like that Nov 07 16:34:39 is the idea that those labels at the bottom are buttons or something. If so, they're way too small. Nov 07 16:34:42 hmmm Nov 07 16:35:02 anyone have an idea of how many applications are currently in the marketplace? Nov 07 16:35:22 or, is there any way of finding out/ Nov 07 16:35:28 just go to "all applications" and count them :) Nov 07 16:35:28 <`vip> marcone im guessing they're like dragable tabs Nov 07 16:35:35 <`vip> to open another slider maybe Nov 07 16:35:44 marcone: no phone mate. this is partially to convince the company to spring for phones ;) Nov 07 16:35:52 way too small i concur Nov 07 16:35:56 why not just directories? Nov 07 16:36:06 i think its just needless complicated Nov 07 16:36:36 i dont think people realise you can type on the screen Nov 07 16:37:06 to filter out Nov 07 16:37:30 most people don't want to spend their lives opening and closing the thing watching it redraw.. Nov 07 16:37:58 theres too much animation! Nov 07 16:38:18 even long presses in gmail annoy me Nov 07 16:38:27 wayy too long for the default context menu Nov 07 16:38:33 but you can release your finger earlier and get it Nov 07 16:42:02 theCarpenter: somehow I doubt your company will be convinced by 5 tip-calculators and 3 flashlight apps ;) Nov 07 16:42:26 marcone: numbers, my friend! they are all that matter if used properly ;) Nov 07 16:42:36 I'm kidding, of course, but there doesn't appear to be much business type software yet Nov 07 16:42:50 marcone: they (the numbers) just need to be correct ;) Nov 07 16:43:31 carpenter: the number can be as high as you want Nov 07 16:43:38 ill make as many apps as you need :) Nov 07 16:43:55 blau: maybe you could just tell me how many currently exist then? ;) :P Nov 07 16:44:07 more than 100! Nov 07 16:48:21 theCarpenter: I just scrolled through and counted about 220 apps Nov 07 16:48:29 (approximately) Nov 07 16:49:02 marcone: thankies :) Nov 07 16:49:30 marcone: actually, not to doubt that number, but i heard someone say that all of the apps weren't actually listed in the All Apps view... (so ive heard) Nov 07 16:50:11 well, then you can tell your company "AT LEAST 220 apps" :) Nov 07 16:50:48 yeah, we keep some apps secret Nov 07 16:50:49 On the market? I thought there were more, actually. Nov 07 16:51:00 like the working email app Nov 07 16:51:05 No doubt once payments are uncorked, the number will go up substantially. Nov 07 16:51:05 the auto-get-root app Nov 07 16:51:07 etc Nov 07 16:51:49 i'll just say "nearly 250 apps" Nov 07 16:51:53 that works i guess? Nov 07 16:51:56 * theCarpenter goes back to work Nov 07 16:53:00 can i add more desktop screen, currently there are 3, is it even possible? Nov 07 16:53:16 not possible yet Nov 07 16:53:22 carpenter: i say over 200 Nov 07 16:55:24 dd94300: duct tape 2 G1s together Nov 07 16:56:08 hahaha. i liked that idea , vol Nov 07 17:01:52 Anynoe thought of writing an adb-FUSE that would let you use the sdcard over adb while the phone still has it mounted? Nov 07 17:02:43 That would be kinda cool Nov 07 17:03:08 Like Hannah Montana, adb-fuse would be the best of both worlds. Nov 07 17:03:16 * RyeBrye needs to have his kids stop watching Disney Channel Nov 07 17:03:32 Please do not mention the unholiness that is Disney Channel here Nov 07 17:03:40 so... much... sound and noise.. . Nov 07 17:03:54 Or even better: export a USB network device from the phone and run samba on it. Nov 07 17:05:00 or an ftp server Nov 07 17:05:13 or NAS Nov 07 17:05:22 or jumanji! Nov 07 17:05:24 RyeBrye: If you don't mind, i'm bashing that quote. Nov 07 17:05:31 no problem :) Nov 07 17:06:05 The point being that host OS's will automatically connect a usb network device and discover a samba server, so you just plug it in and it "mounts", just like now. Nov 07 17:06:50 nonono Nov 07 17:06:59 please do not run samba on my phone.! Nov 07 17:07:23 I would think a fuse driver would not be hard. But that's because I've never tried to write one Nov 07 17:07:30 You'd be surprised how small samba is, actually. Nov 07 17:07:54 I dislike it. Nov 07 17:08:02 Motorola actually shipped it on my A780 for exactly that reason. The network device stuff was a mess. But the smbd was under a megabyte IIRC. Nov 07 17:08:15 Samba is such a mess :) Nov 07 17:08:24 my roommate hacks on it for his job Nov 07 17:08:33 windows file sharing is a mess, why not just use NFS? :) Nov 07 17:08:46 andatche: because NFS is the most tragically insecure network file system ever built Nov 07 17:09:06 it also fails to scale Nov 07 17:09:23 And in this context, there's no discovery protocol. The advantage to samba isn't that it's a clean protocol (heh), it's that it's pervasively supported and dynamically discoverable. Nov 07 17:09:38 It's a horrible idea. Nov 07 17:09:53 And yet it works. Funny how those are sometimes in opposition. Nov 07 17:10:00 andatche: smbd might be small in size, but it isn't light. Nov 07 17:10:01 Will it work on my Linux box? Nov 07 17:10:11 err andyross * Nov 07 17:10:38 i cant imagine the battery would last long with that type of nonsense going on Nov 07 17:10:52 The bottom line is that having to disable your sdcard to get to it from a PC is a misfeature and a problem. A smbd would avoid that, and provide the same user experience without the need for any special host software. I'm not aware of any other solutions that meet that criteria. Nov 07 17:10:59 There are people at Google who know the samba implementation, so I'm sure that if we wanted to go in that direction we could ask for their help. Nov 07 17:11:10 * joakime wispers "bonjour" and quietly slinks away ... Nov 07 17:11:19 My A780 had a smbd running out of the box, and lasted for three days at a time... Nov 07 17:12:03 andyross: i can't help but notice that you sit in here dreaming up wild ideas all day long, but are you actually going to do anything interesting with Android? Nov 07 17:12:06 you had an A780? wow Nov 07 17:12:13 * ttuttle considers samba "special host software". I don't want to use a network filesystem to access a usb storage device. Nov 07 17:12:14 I didn't know they sold more than five of those... Nov 07 17:12:20 blount: lol Nov 07 17:12:58 jasta: Had a few dozen hits on the compiler wrapper that got posted yesterday. Does that count? Or am I not allowed to speak? Seriously: what's with the ad hominem? Nov 07 17:13:07 as far as I now the hardest hurdle to go the samba route is the lower-level stuff (e.g. making a device look like a USB-to-ethernet adapter in a way that doesn't bluescreen windows). Nov 07 17:13:31 why do you need samba? so you can access crap over the wifi? Nov 07 17:13:57 andyross: i'm just curious if you actually _do_ anything. Nov 07 17:14:05 it doesn't have to be samba, it could also be nfs, http, ftp... Nov 07 17:14:06 i don't actually do anything Nov 07 17:14:16 run httpd on your phone? Nov 07 17:14:32 thoraxe: many phones already do, actually. Nov 07 17:14:39 what the hell for? Nov 07 17:14:47 for proxy-initiated OMA push. Nov 07 17:14:51 thoraxe: my project uses a light-weight HTTP server, although that is because of limitations in Android. Nov 07 17:14:53 interesting Nov 07 17:14:59 makes sense though! Nov 07 17:15:14 what would be totally awesome is a vpn client Nov 07 17:15:14 :P Nov 07 17:15:17 jasta: And if I answered "no", what would your response be? Are only people who "do" things allowed to speak? Just ignore me if you don't want to hear me. I just don't understand the hostility... Nov 07 17:15:36 andyross: I said I was curious, that is all. Nov 07 17:15:51 typically hostitlity comes when those with ideas think their ideas are good ideas and those who do not think their ideas are good decide to say so :) Nov 07 17:16:09 but since i have no ideas of my own, i just babble Nov 07 17:16:23 heh, does the G1 support RNDIS for USB ? Nov 07 17:16:44 the good news is that once you have an IP link over USB (e.g. by faking ethernet over USB, but you could also look at serial, parallel, and even SCSI), you can run all those protocols at the same time. Nov 07 17:17:34 one funny thought was to make android look like a USB modem, and to ppp into it. Nov 07 17:17:54 thats how a lot of Windows Mobile phones work Nov 07 17:17:55 jbq - usb network adapter is an interesting approach Nov 07 17:18:00 either over bluetooth or usb Nov 07 17:18:57 I don't know the limitations of the USB stuff at the low level, but I presume it would be extremely difficult / impossible for the device to present itself as a USB hub with 2 devices on it? I.e. a network adapter and another device? Nov 07 17:19:47 Pretty sure hub support is in the usb gadget code, but I don't know the kernel side. Nov 07 17:19:48 ignoring practicality for a second - making present itself as a USB keyboard and a USB network device simultaneously would be beyond the limits of the hardware? I'm not a USB expert Nov 07 17:19:53 RyeBrye: no, that's actually very possible, but not necessary: a single USB device can expose multiple interfaces. Nov 07 17:19:55 any current consensus about the relative wisdom of flashing boot vs. recovery when trying out new images? Nov 07 17:20:23 RyeBrye: in fact the G1 exposes itself both as an ADB device *and* as a mass-storage device. Nov 07 17:20:51 my sense is you could flash boot, see if it works, and always recover Nov 07 17:21:31 however, if you flash recovery then all you can do is boot to the recovery tool (not see if _everything_ is working) before deciding to flash boot Nov 07 17:22:18 alansj - whichver one makes more sense to do for you is what you should do... but before you do anything you must accept this statement: Nov 07 17:22:56 "If I brick my phone, I will not try to defraud the store by returning it." Nov 07 17:23:18 yes of course Nov 07 17:24:19 If we prove that we are good boys and girls, maybe T-mobile / HTC will realize the sky does not fall when users have low-level access... Nov 07 17:24:50 had they left fastboot / the HTC bootloader in a functional state, it would be very difficult to brick the phone Nov 07 17:24:59 Problem is that when a phone company realizes something "doesn't" happen, they take no action. :( Nov 07 17:25:30 yeah, i dont see them doing us any favors Nov 07 17:25:38 we need to get a man inside google Nov 07 17:25:44 * DarkriftX looks around crookedly Nov 07 17:26:07 I do think that flashing boot makes more sense than flashing recovery, fwiw Nov 07 17:26:22 its a neverending arguement, there are reasons for both Nov 07 17:26:35 actually, I don't know what the reasons are for recovery Nov 07 17:26:41 alansj: you have a link to anywhere I can read a bit about flashing? Nov 07 17:26:45 so that you can recover with your own code Nov 07 17:26:50 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=442831 Nov 07 17:26:50 RyeBrye: the sad part (and the reason why you're walking a fine line right now) is that the risk of bricking a phone would actually be lower if the phones were open. Nov 07 17:27:03 jbq - yes, you are absolutely correct Nov 07 17:27:11 like i said last night, messign with boot first is like saying you would rather test your edits on your main computer then you would on your recovery disk... Nov 07 17:27:16 RyeBrye: right, but I'd rather test my own code in an environment where I can recover to factory before putting my own code into recovery Nov 07 17:27:23 if you kill your recovery, you have a working phone still Nov 07 17:27:58 alansj - for now, your argument makes sense... but if you upgrade to a version that by default has the ability to gain root removed - and you have not flashed your recovery, you will be unable to flash back to an older version Nov 07 17:27:58 yeah, but my point is that you don't know you've killed recovery for sure until you have already recovered and overwritten boot Nov 07 17:28:25 RyeBrye: yes, ultimately you probably want to flash them both... but my argument is to start with boot to make sure it works Nov 07 17:28:28 DarkriftX: but then you really prevent new "official" updates, including real security holes (and I don't mean patching local root exploits, I mean situations where a malicious app or a malicious site really hurts you). Nov 07 17:29:03 Yeah, I'm planning to still apply official updates - only my own special flavor of them Nov 07 17:30:05 so RyeBrye did you find out anytihng about that guys images? Nov 07 17:30:31 DarkriftX - not yet, I'll go check and see if he posted his patches... what he is doing sounds plausible Nov 07 17:30:37 hey, small annoyance question: when I mount my sdcard in os x, then unmount it, /sdcard does not reappear in adb shell... is there some way to tell the phone that I want the sdcard re-mounted without unplugging/replugging Nov 07 17:30:54 no Nov 07 17:30:57 (that is, re-mounted on the phone, not os x) Nov 07 17:32:26 so anybody found the jtag pins yet? ;) Nov 07 17:33:11 In my contacts I have a lot of numbers. There should be names attached but they are just numbers. When I click on one I see there is an Organization name "Business" but why doesn't that show? In outlook I didn't have the businesses with "names" just Business Nov 07 17:33:31 ali1234 - no... there is a 'void' sticker on the screw on my phone which acts like kryptonite to superhackers! ;) Nov 07 17:34:31 nothing useful on that page RyeBrye Nov 07 17:34:38 grrr at users Nov 07 17:35:34 DarkriftX - he posted his response - where he explained all of what he did. What he did makes sense - I'll still build my own stuff just because I have the whole build set up already - but his approaches seem reasonable. The fact that he didn't modify the recovery.img signficantly is good Nov 07 17:36:07 The Interactive Session yesteday wasn't helpful. Guess it was just to gather information Nov 07 17:36:24 hopefully they will do something better with the battery Nov 07 17:36:28 but what i read didnt seem like he made any changes that would cause what he says happens Nov 07 17:36:33 You only have to do the build if you want to sign your own stuff, as I understand it. I'm working on creating my own boot.img which I'll just flash directly. Nov 07 17:36:41 which changes allows it to flash resigned images? Nov 07 17:36:47 they should also allow you to save programs to sd card bc i'm running out of room Nov 07 17:37:08 DarkriftX - rebuilding the recovery.img from the open source tree does that - it builds a recovery.img that only accepts stuff signed with the testkeys provided in the build Nov 07 17:37:18 The only change I made was to make it print out "using test keys" when it runs, just to make it easy to tell if it's running. Nov 07 17:37:20 oh, i c Nov 07 17:37:50 the keys it looks for are in an included 'keys.inc' file which gets generated in the build and then compiled into the recovery image Nov 07 17:37:57 so you think his files are good? others tried them and seems to be working Nov 07 17:37:59 and why can't you attach anything to an email other than pictures? What if I want to attach a file? Or even a sound clip. How do I attach my resume? Nov 07 17:38:10 RyeBrye: where does the keys.inc file live? somewhere in the filesystem? Nov 07 17:38:35 alansj - no, on the phone it is embedded into the recovery.img - on the build system it just gets built as an intermediate file Nov 07 17:38:37 Poohba: there was an explicit requirement to only be able to attach pictures. Nov 07 17:38:56 jbq - was this from T-mobile? Nov 07 17:39:00 RyeBrye: the customer service agent at t-mobile didn't know what the void sticker waws for Nov 07 17:39:13 RyeBrye: at my level I don't have visibility about the source of the requirements. Nov 07 17:39:21 Gotcha Nov 07 17:39:36 jbq: try typing into your computer as it boots, it might escalate your privileges ;) Nov 07 17:40:03 thoraxe: I think the sticker on the screw shows that the screw doesn't return anything after it runs....? Nov 07 17:40:12 RyeBrye: right, but embedded where? I don't see it in the ramdisk. Nov 07 17:40:24 It'd be good in the future if the discussions about such requirements could also happen "in the open" (as long as there's nothing confidential in them, of course). Nov 07 17:40:28 alansj - it gets compiled in. It's not read as a file. Nov 07 17:40:35 into the kernel? Nov 07 17:41:02 sorry to be slow... Nov 07 17:41:19 alansj - dunno, haven't looked into it much, but it looks like it just creates a static array of numbers in the binary of the recovery executable... look in bootloader.c or something on the /recovery directory Nov 07 17:41:26 is it possible to access another activity's preferences? Nov 07 17:41:32 And explicit requirement to ... *only* ... attach picture? :) Carriers... Nov 07 17:42:00 How is it determined that it is ONLY a picture? "Here's my picture of my dog... dog.zip.jpg" ? Nov 07 17:42:04 err nvm. preferences are application wide Nov 07 17:42:22 Might have been a security worry. Some executive got burned once opening a zip file in an email and declared that he'd fix this right now. :) Nov 07 17:42:38 RyeBrye: hm, ok. The only things in the recovery image are a kernel and a cpio'ed filesystem. Nov 07 17:43:03 RyeBrye: hmmm, good point actually. It does go through the image picker, but I don't know what'd happen if you installed your own image picker and returned other types of files. Nov 07 17:43:24 FWIW, is there anything someone's dying to do with the kernel? It seems like the boot kernel is reasonably well-configured already. Nov 07 17:44:01 yeah, the kernel is fine... what we want to do is change the stuff in the root filesystem... like init.rc Nov 07 17:44:28 Right, but you can do that post-boot via just writing to /system, for the most part. Nov 07 17:44:34 alansj - if you have a copy of the modified recovery image, I can pastebin the keys.inc that gets built as part of the build so you can scan through to see where the various values go Nov 07 17:44:49 alansj - I obviously don't have the keys.inc for the production ota-keys build Nov 07 17:44:53 no, you can't because it's a ramdisk that gets loaded at boot which replaces init.rc anda few other things Nov 07 17:45:37 Can you be more specific? I know rootfs isn't persistent, but nonetheless there *is* an init script run out of /system, and pretty much anything you want to do could be done there. Nov 07 17:45:47 init.trout.rc, default.prop, init.rc, logo.rle, init.goldfish.rc, sbin/adbd Nov 07 17:46:07 yeah, replacing the logo would be nice Nov 07 17:46:22 Those aren't in the initrd, though. They're in a read-only filesystem mounted at /system. (OK, logo is definitely an example) Nov 07 17:46:25 yeah, that's the one I'm really shooting for Nov 07 17:46:48 actually, turning off the logo, which is set in init.rc (which I think would show a boot up sequence) Nov 07 17:47:26 alansj: http://pastebin.com/m7dfbc989 - that is the keys.inc for the test keys build Nov 07 17:47:30 thx Nov 07 17:47:56 * jasta raises an eyebrow Nov 07 17:48:04 hey, anyone around that has used KeyListeners (via someView.setKeyListener())? Nov 07 17:48:09 i was just reading xda-developers and saw your posts RyeBrye :) Nov 07 17:48:15 andyross: where do you see those files in system/ ? Nov 07 17:48:55 because they are definitely in the boot.img ramdisk, and they sit in the root dir Nov 07 17:49:18 shit Nov 07 17:49:25 i cant even upload a friggen file to my ftp Nov 07 17:49:44 Ah, indeed, you're right. I swore they were in /system/etc. Nov 07 17:50:22 cool, glad I'm not losing my mind Nov 07 17:53:27 hehe, there are people in the xda-developers forums that are actually wanting to get Windows Mobile running on the G1 Nov 07 17:53:42 ew Nov 07 17:53:49 mind boggling :) Nov 07 17:53:51 would be amusing to trade Nov 07 17:54:09 they can run wm on my g1 if I can get one of the nicer HTCs ;-) Nov 07 17:54:42 spikebike: WM as in windowmaker? Nov 07 17:54:56 why? :o) Nov 07 17:55:20 android rooools!! Nov 07 17:55:30 jasta, they are probably paid by microsoft to troll around leaving bad comments everywhere Nov 07 17:55:31 windows mobile Nov 07 17:55:49 because when someone asks them afterwards.. "why?!".. they can answer with "beacause I CAN!! bwahahahaaa.." Nov 07 17:56:04 android on the touch HD or something Nov 07 17:56:32 "because the g1 is not useful right now because nothing works so i want wm on it" Nov 07 17:56:37 thats the default answer i see Nov 07 17:56:53 doesn't WM not support capacitve screens? Nov 07 17:57:21 why would you want a g1 if you want to run wm? Nov 07 17:57:29 how to I upgrade an app via adb? Nov 07 17:57:32 dunno Nov 07 17:57:35 compass? Nov 07 17:57:42 adb install gives error that it already exists Nov 07 17:57:44 zhobbs, adb install -r App.apk Nov 07 17:57:52 -r does a reinstall, while keeping the data Nov 07 17:58:18 KNY: great, thanks Nov 07 17:58:24 no problem Nov 07 18:01:45 hrmmmm Nov 07 18:02:08 because nothing works? Nov 07 18:02:13 everything works as far as i can tell Nov 07 18:02:19 some parts of things are broken, but quickly being fixed Nov 07 18:03:09 heh Nov 07 18:03:15 well I suspect the big apps are all missing Nov 07 18:03:31 plus.. if you put WM on the the thing, you'd have to somehow rub off the "with Google" on the back and replace it with something else Nov 07 18:04:00 RyeBrye: scale down an "I'm with stupid" T-Shirt and paste it on Nov 07 18:04:02 heh, dunno Nov 07 18:04:15 google does provide some of the most popular wm apps Nov 07 18:07:43 spikebike: define "big apps" ? Nov 07 18:07:44 outlook? Nov 07 18:10:15 outlook, skype, turn by turn navigation, ability to edit word/excel docs Nov 07 18:10:25 and of course exchange integration Nov 07 18:10:27 VPN Nov 07 18:12:25 I really hope TomTom comes out on Android Nov 07 18:16:18 I just noticed that the little satellite icon is visible on my screen, implying that some app is using the GPS. I'd like to make that stop, since the GPS is said to drain my battery quickly. But I cannot figure out which app is using it, and even if I could, I'm not sure how to stop an app. What should I do? Nov 07 18:16:33 ... although it is usually pretty pricey (TomTom Navigator 6 is $150) Nov 07 18:16:39 turn off gps in settings Nov 07 18:16:51 hold down the home key and see what's running Nov 07 18:16:53 oh crap, the phone just rebooted Nov 07 18:16:57 (gmaps?) Nov 07 18:17:00 ... :\ Nov 07 18:17:04 well, that solves it Nov 07 18:17:10 RyeBrye: I lied... the recovery image has a few extra files including sbin/recovery which presumably is where those keys are compiled in Nov 07 18:17:15 vol: ah, holding down the home key tells me what's running? I had thought it merely displayed a list of recently-access apps. Nov 07 18:17:24 alansj - ok, that makes sense Nov 07 18:17:27 well, it does. Nov 07 18:17:33 does which? Nov 07 18:17:39 offby1: you are correct, it doesn't show you all the processes Nov 07 18:17:40 what you said Nov 07 18:17:52 but I said two different things :) Nov 07 18:18:02 "tells me what's running" and "displayed a list of recently-accessed apps" Nov 07 18:18:14 I assume those are not always the same list Nov 07 18:18:17 There is no such thing as "applications that are running" Nov 07 18:18:35 Applications that are not in the foreground can be at varied stages in the lifecycle Nov 07 18:18:37 well, it's not useful anyway hehe Nov 07 18:18:46 cbeust_: ah, I didn't know that Nov 07 18:19:08 but they are not running, services might be, though Nov 07 18:19:40 interesting -- it didn't reboot, exactly ... the "Uptime" thing shows a nice big number, and it only displayed the "Android" logo briefly, as opposed to when it reboots, it displays it for almost a minute (and displays some other logo too). Weird weird weird. Nov 07 18:19:41 cbeust_: a big complaint i seem to get often is "how do i kill apps i dont use anymore? i don't want my phone to slow down." Nov 07 18:19:45 i just chuckle :) Nov 07 18:20:08 jasta: that's pretty much exactly my question :-| Nov 07 18:20:10 jasta: yeah it's a common question, it's not that easy to explain, unfortunately Nov 07 18:20:26 and users don't like to hear "don't worry, the system knows how to handle this better than you" Nov 07 18:20:33 It may be an _ignorant_ question, but you can understand the motivation behind it Nov 07 18:20:37 It's not that insane. An application might be spinning in the background, the framework can't prevent that except by killing it, which isn't user-visible. Nov 07 18:20:42 offby1: Absolutely Nov 07 18:21:39 The key is that killing a process that's currently hosting an app doesn't stop the app from restarting a few seconds later. In fact, if you kill a process that hosts a running service, the system will spawn a new process to restart the service automatically. Nov 07 18:22:56 the moment of truth... about to reboot with a flashed boot image Nov 07 18:23:29 cbeust_: it's hard for people in general to appreciate, i think. it takes even programmers a long time to realize that the compiler actually knows better than you. Nov 07 18:23:47 (for example) Nov 07 18:23:56 jasta: agreed, and the desire to kill processes is ingrained in computer users, it's hard to shake off Nov 07 18:23:59 stupid humans :) Nov 07 18:25:03 oh boy, did something wrong... infinite reboot loop with the G1 logo... time for restore Nov 07 18:25:23 hi Nov 07 18:25:27 alansj: good luck :) Nov 07 18:26:03 so restore is like an update via update.zip? Nov 07 18:26:06 That being said, it'd be good if the system could also automatically detect processes that don't host a running service or a visible activity but are using CPU time and gently kill them. Nov 07 18:26:53 is rc30 out yet? Nov 07 18:27:52 dims: do you still have the callnative example hosted somewhere? your wordpress link is not active Nov 07 18:28:49 mowgli, lost all of it by mistake :( Nov 07 18:28:50 ionstorm: yes basically Nov 07 18:28:54 jbq: what you just said, about the system restarting the service, reminds me of the way Erlang stuff works ... Nov 07 18:29:08 hmm.. nice examples... too bad it was lost Nov 07 18:29:12 users make me cry Nov 07 18:29:13 my phone is not able to locate where i am, is this a common thing? Nov 07 18:29:30 DarkriftX: good question. I wonder if there's some place where we can monitor upcoming releases etc. Nov 07 18:29:39 rreck: probably not too uncommon. Are you indoors? Nov 07 18:29:52 it's just an ordinary gps receiver, as far as I know; they have trouble if they can't "see" the sky Nov 07 18:29:54 i was indoors, then went outside and it was the same Nov 07 18:30:05 do you have GPS turned on? I think it's off by default. Nov 07 18:30:14 ok thanks i will check that Nov 07 18:30:22 you dont need gps usually though Nov 07 18:30:31 offby1: restarting processes automatically not exclusive to Erlang (and you still need to do it by hand in Erlang) Nov 07 18:30:34 itll be inaccurate but you can usually do it based on towers Nov 07 18:31:27 cbeust_: Erlang allows you to create "supervisor" processes, which automatically restart their children if needed. Nov 07 18:31:45 offby1: I know, but you still need to organize that graph yourself Nov 07 18:32:58 To be fair, that's not really erlang's magic though. It's the idea that an immutable message to a server process and a pure functional call are the same thing. Nov 07 18:33:05 hm, anybody done a recovery before? I seem to be not getting all the way there. Nov 07 18:33:45 I boot into recovery tool, ALT+W, "Formatting DATA, CACHE, Data wipe complete" but when I reboot from there I'm still stuck in infinite reboot Nov 07 18:34:08 Sounds like you're now the proud owner of a G1-shape brick. Nov 07 18:34:14 indeed Nov 07 18:35:21 offby1, when it does come out ill add the file and whatever details i can to my wiki, which is why i was asking. i want to keep that up to date Nov 07 18:35:28 * DarkriftX heads to work Nov 07 18:35:30 later all Nov 07 18:35:40 oh, and how do i read the channel logs? Nov 07 18:36:08 hey, before you go have you done a recovery before? Nov 07 18:36:18 i dont have a g1 yet alansj :( Nov 07 18:36:24 boo Nov 07 18:36:29 and depending on how rc30 acts, i might not get one Nov 07 18:36:36 well at the moment I don't have one either Nov 07 18:36:45 unless i can find a rc19/29 for sale somewhere Nov 07 18:36:58 romainguy, how do i view the logs? Nov 07 18:37:01 channel logs* Nov 07 18:37:15 no idea, ask morrildl Nov 07 18:37:40 morrildl!! you around? Nov 07 18:37:46 ~logs Nov 07 18:37:46 All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/channel, where "channel" is replaced by the URL-encoded channel name, such as %23freenode for #freenode. Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Nov 07 18:37:50 ooooh, nice Nov 07 18:38:06 yo mama jokes go here? Nov 07 18:38:17 anyone play around with quicklaunch settings? Nov 07 18:38:34 hmmm. Nov 07 18:38:47 hmmm. Nov 07 18:38:52 damn, not real time? Nov 07 18:39:26 i cant use irc at work, and wanted to be able to keep up with the convo while gone :( Nov 07 18:40:55 you could always log it yourself at home Nov 07 18:40:57 http://java.freenode.net/ Nov 07 18:41:36 thx fadden but if i can type into it i cant use it Nov 07 18:41:47 we have credit card info all over and our screens are monitored Nov 07 18:41:59 anything we could paste cc numbers into that leaves the company is dissalowed Nov 07 18:42:01 you should just leave an irc open at home Nov 07 18:42:06 disallowed Nov 07 18:42:09 irc on ur g1 Nov 07 18:42:19 i do Dougie187 just need to make a way to read the real time logs while at work lol Nov 07 18:42:31 DarkriftX: your G1 :) Nov 07 18:42:40 you could have it log them at home, and then put it on a webserver or something Nov 07 18:42:57 no phones/mp3 players allowed on the "floor' Nov 07 18:43:10 yeah Dougie187 ill prob set that up tomorrow Nov 07 18:43:13 Sounds like a great career choice :) Nov 07 18:43:28 what do you do? Nov 07 18:43:30 Stock broker? Nov 07 18:43:33 lol Nov 07 18:43:44 where can i learn how to use the zoom in/out thing? Nov 07 18:43:44 tier 3 hosting support at godaddy Nov 07 18:44:10 I sell dedicated servers and assist with them all day :S Nov 07 18:44:25 and the occasional "here is your pop server for outlook" Nov 07 18:44:35 rreck: what do you mean? Nov 07 18:44:40 sounds like fun Nov 07 18:44:42 * DarkriftX goes to work now Nov 07 18:44:43 later all Nov 07 18:44:47 bye Nov 07 18:45:05 blau: stuff i just got this and am having trouble getting the hang of it Nov 07 18:45:13 blau: simple stuff i mean Nov 07 18:48:29 DarkriftX: do you have a notepad Nov 07 18:48:29 like Nov 07 18:48:31 pencil and paper Nov 07 18:48:42 because I suspect you could get CC numbers that way too Nov 07 18:55:07 Is there a way to install android market on the android emulator? Nov 07 18:55:31 I'm basically wanting to try out some apps.. trying to decide if I should get the G1 :-) Nov 07 18:57:10 not that i know of Nov 07 18:57:13 savid, get a g1 Nov 07 18:57:44 You could probably get a T-Mobile store to give you a demo and let you try some market apps. Nov 07 18:57:52 blau, heh, yeah, I'm pretty tempted to. I'm currently under helio contract :-( though I'm tempted to just pay the etf Nov 07 18:59:34 what is a good name for a fake soft keyboard? I need something a bit shorter. Nov 07 18:59:43 fake? Nov 07 18:59:50 Fsk! Nov 07 19:00:07 well its fake since it for a single app not the whole platform Nov 07 19:00:20 ahh Nov 07 19:02:03 oh no, my first non reproducable bug for my finance app :( Nov 07 19:02:41 : ( Nov 07 19:02:45 blau: what is your app? Nov 07 19:03:43 dgMoney is the one im talking about, but I made SMS Screen Alert too Nov 07 19:04:35 jt thumbs Nov 07 19:04:41 and i got one email from someone that i really dont understand what they want Nov 07 19:05:07 Ah, nevermind, I was hoping you were the guy from budgetdroid. Nov 07 19:06:00 nah Nov 07 19:06:05 like budget droid better? Nov 07 19:06:20 I haven't tried dgMoney yet Nov 07 19:06:34 I'm just using it to keep track of where the hell I'm spending all my money Nov 07 19:06:38 because it feels like I ought to have more : ( Nov 07 19:07:51 * cbeust_ saw the latest South Park episode which came out 24 hours after the election and yet contained material that happened on election night Nov 07 19:08:08 from one email, "my one recommendation would be to enable ability to edit an entry, instead of deleting and rentering." Nov 07 19:08:16 jt436: farkboard Nov 07 19:08:22 i feel like its so obvious how to edit Nov 07 19:08:25 you just click the item Nov 07 19:08:28 ugh.. my early termination fee for Helio is a whopping $175... should I wait a whole year? decisions, decisions.... I am kindof interested in what motorola's device is going to look like... Nov 07 19:08:43 savid: ask them if they can not charge you the termination fee Nov 07 19:08:47 deleting and recreating a new item are so much harder Nov 07 19:09:00 that i dont see how someone could not edit but still know how to delete Nov 07 19:09:04 Doesn't the current release on the G1 support a normal bluetooth headset profile or whatever? Nov 07 19:09:17 yakischloba: should Nov 07 19:09:22 Works for me Nov 07 19:09:28 No A2DP though :( Nov 07 19:09:31 i have no bluetooh problems yet Nov 07 19:09:36 ahh there it is. I was just being stupid with my headset, didnt have it in discoverable. Nov 07 19:09:39 thoraxe, seriously? you think that just by asking them to not charge me I can get out of it? Has anyone been able to do that? Nov 07 19:09:52 savid: Stranger things have happened Nov 07 19:09:54 Can't hurt to ask Nov 07 19:10:14 heh, true Nov 07 19:10:38 i bought the g1 with full intentions to pay etf if sprint ever gets an android phone Nov 07 19:10:58 savid: that's what t-mobile did for me when i had to cancel my sidekick line Nov 07 19:11:12 savid: they couldn't *waive* the fee, but they said they could just not charge it Nov 07 19:11:19 so whenever the bt headset is connected, call audio goes through it by default? Nov 07 19:11:23 it's worth an ask Nov 07 19:11:36 true, true... Nov 07 19:11:41 jt436: are you really making a soft keyboard? Nov 07 19:12:06 jt436: i would love a t9 soft keyboard Nov 07 19:13:08 A t9 keyboard? Nov 07 19:14:50 thoraxe: yeah i need to make a soft keyboard Nov 07 19:15:23 Is anyone (external or from Google) planning to come to FOSDEM 7/8 february 2009 in Brussels? Nov 07 19:18:52 one thing I was curious about when looking at the G1 @ the tmo store is, does the screen only go landscape when you open the keyboard? Or is it sensitive to the accelerometer? Nov 07 19:19:05 savid: only when you open the keyboard Nov 07 19:19:11 savid, depends on the apps Nov 07 19:19:15 hmm Nov 07 19:19:20 Yes, some apps use it Nov 07 19:19:27 guess that makes sense Nov 07 19:19:28 I guess their research found that people preferred that it was linked to the flip Nov 07 19:19:42 But for instance, the video player on the market uses the accelerometer Nov 07 19:19:45 even when the flip is not open Nov 07 19:19:47 brocktice: our research showed that automatically flipping the screen gets it wrong very often Nov 07 19:19:47 most of the apps currently use the keyboard as a trigger, some use the accelerometer, but it could be either one or both Nov 07 19:20:08 savid, the video app uses the accelerometer I think Nov 07 19:20:29 brocktice: whoops Nov 07 19:20:29 cool. I'm assuming the photo viewer would as well? Nov 07 19:20:48 no worries Nov 07 19:21:18 savid:no idea, but if you adapt it and make it do it, it will :-) Nov 07 19:21:27 actually I think with the photo viewer the's an option on the menu to flip it Nov 07 19:21:32 but it's not automatic Nov 07 19:21:39 pjv, very good pint! Nov 07 19:21:49 s/pint/point/ Nov 07 19:21:49 savid meant: pjv, very good point! Nov 07 19:21:50 It does seem to record the orientation in the EXIF data when you take photos, though Nov 07 19:21:54 hehe Nov 07 19:22:31 Applications can force the screen to flip mode (the camera does) Nov 07 19:29:24 has the jailbreak hack been patched yet? Nov 07 19:30:01 hooray, g1 un-bricked Nov 07 19:30:25 how'd you brick it? Nov 07 19:30:33 flashing a new boot image Nov 07 19:30:41 which apparently wasn't properly created Nov 07 19:30:59 oops Nov 07 19:32:32 yeah, but it's pretty easy to re-apply the stock RC29 (as long as you haven't also screwed up the recovery image) Nov 07 19:32:51 so noted, very good to know, that gives me hope Nov 07 19:33:31 i still haven't gotten rc9 Nov 07 19:33:32 29 Nov 07 19:33:45 alansj: What was the magic to getting recovery to work? Nov 07 19:33:48 you can download it yourself and force it Nov 07 19:33:49 i got it on my first device but that device broke, and i've had the replacement for 24+hrs Nov 07 19:34:33 the magic was using the right command... I didn't want to do alt+W after all (that just wipes /data and /cache). Instead, you put the update on the sd card, name it update.zip, and then from the recovery menu hit alt+S Nov 07 19:34:56 so, I accidentally deleted all my user data, but nothing important was there anyway Nov 07 19:35:12 I'm just annoyed that the boot.img I created didn't work Nov 07 19:35:21 I have to stop and think every time I see the "Mount or Unmount" dialog for USB storage. Nov 07 19:35:28 w and s are pretty close together, that doesn't sound like a good thing Nov 07 19:35:29 It's totally backwards. Nov 07 19:36:03 jimp: It refers to "mount on the PC as a filesystem". But yeah, it really should be "Connect", or "Activate" or something. Nov 07 19:36:18 andyross: Yeah, but that makes no sense, clicking that button doesn't cause it to mount on the PC. Nov 07 19:36:41 It just causes the android to unmount locally and to expose the device via mass storage Nov 07 19:36:53 It's up to the host if it wants to mount it over USB Nov 07 19:37:08 Well, right. It causes it to appear as a storage device, which gets picked up by the automounter logic. But the net effect to someone plugging it in is to see a new filesystem on their computer. Nov 07 19:37:47 I know how it works, I just can't help stumbling over the logic each time -- "click mount to unmount /sdcard, click unmount to mount /sdcard... got it!" Nov 07 19:39:17 anyone compiled the msm-htc-2.6.25 kernel and used on the g1 ? Nov 07 19:39:21 did worked ok ? Nov 07 19:41:14 dream_kill: what is that? Nov 07 19:41:34 the kernel Nov 07 19:41:46 the orginal kernel? Nov 07 19:42:01 is in the repo on the g1 Nov 07 19:42:05 jimp actually that button does cause a mount if you configur it right Nov 07 19:42:30 when compiling for htc-dream it uses the precompiled kernel from /vendor/htc.... Nov 07 19:42:36 what is the difference? Nov 07 19:42:54 wanted to know if anyone compiled itself the kernel in repo and if worked ok on the handset Nov 07 19:43:11 not sure we can boot an arbitrary kernel without control of the bootloader Nov 07 19:43:19 spikebike: Hmm? can you swap the behavior? or are you just talking about from the PC side again Nov 07 19:43:44 I tweaked ubuntu, it used to automount rc19 Nov 07 19:43:48 but failed with RC29 Nov 07 19:43:51 till I tweaked udev Nov 07 19:43:54 I don't care about automount from the PC, that's unrelated Nov 07 19:44:01 from my point of view at least :P Nov 07 19:44:07 spikebike: couldn't you just change the name of the kernel file if you knew what the bootloader was looking for? Nov 07 19:44:28 i mean, with grub and linux, if you subbed in a different kernel/initrd it wouldn't matter what the bootloader was configured for Nov 07 19:44:31 Not sure we can write to where it's pointing or change the name Nov 07 19:44:35 aha Nov 07 19:44:36 gotcha Nov 07 19:44:37 not to mention the kernel might well be signed Nov 07 19:44:41 thoraxe: It l oads it directly from flash, not a filesystem Nov 07 19:44:55 jimp: flash memory you mean? Nov 07 19:44:58 yes Nov 07 19:45:00 gotcha Nov 07 19:45:27 * dream_kill getting the laptop out for more g1 hacking ...sorry research :P Nov 07 19:49:13 so, I guess google will delete telnetd or change permissions with r30 Nov 07 19:49:28 wonder what can be done to make root access permanent Nov 07 19:49:55 a shared library marked suid Nov 07 19:50:39 jeld: Deleting telnetd won't fix anything. The simple fix is here: http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=1207#c4 Nov 07 19:50:51 (disable the console) Nov 07 19:52:33 Well, you can't apparently modify the distributed flash file in future updates because then signatures won't match Nov 07 19:52:47 But since we now have write access to /system, couldn't you just unzip the update and apply it yourself? Nov 07 19:52:59 Or just the pieces you want Nov 07 19:53:49 there has been work on modifying the restore image so that it checks for updates signed by the test keys rather than their keys Nov 07 19:54:19 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2873715 Nov 07 19:54:48 woops, this is a better link: āˆš Nov 07 19:54:50 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=443041 Nov 07 19:55:46 Interesting Nov 07 19:57:24 I wonder what was changed to make it work? Nov 07 19:57:37 I was looking at the install script in the RC29 update.zip, thought maybe that could be modified Nov 07 19:57:58 What is changed is the keys compiled into the app. Nov 07 19:58:25 It's gotten around by writing the recovery.img directly? Nov 07 19:59:00 Well, that's one way if you're just interested in reflashing (just flash the new image). Nov 07 19:59:12 The goal there was to still use the built-in recovery mechanisms, just change the keys when building it. Nov 07 19:59:46 I see there's now a wiki for this stuff. Nov 07 19:59:48 Hope that stays up Nov 07 20:01:00 There are a couple actually, I put one up at the same time as someone else Nov 07 20:01:46 Well, now all of the people on the market complaining about not having a way to kill programs can (eventually) have what they want. Nov 07 20:01:49 not much in mine, but some different info .. I imagine it will go away at some point Nov 07 20:01:53 lol Nov 07 20:02:06 its annoys me to no end about people wanting to kill apps Nov 07 20:02:17 They need to either get comfortable with the shell or (more likely) someone will come up with an app that uses root privs. Nov 07 20:02:27 so I'm getting frustrated trying to put together my own boot.img... jimp have you messed with the image headers after updating the ramdisk? It's not clear to me how to read the ramdisk size specified in there. Nov 07 20:02:33 windows mobile has killed how people think mobile os's shoudl work Nov 07 20:02:39 ruined ruined ruined Nov 07 20:02:41 blau: To be fair, there are some real resource hogging programs that I've just uninstalled because of the crap that they run in the background Nov 07 20:02:50 And then rebooted. Nov 07 20:03:00 brock: if they are that bad, then you probably shouldnt be using them anyway Nov 07 20:03:03 It should not take 10 seconds to redraw the home screen Nov 07 20:03:08 Exactly Nov 07 20:03:14 That's why I uninstalled them. :) Nov 07 20:03:19 everything ive installed that has been a resource hogger, ive uninstalled and not even cared Nov 07 20:03:28 I really want Locale to be usable Nov 07 20:03:33 because it's cool stuff Nov 07 20:03:40 But it just grinds the device to a halt in short order Nov 07 20:05:10 alansj: http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/system/core.git;a=blob;f=mkbootimg/bootimg.h;h=242ab35db82be002005dbd3ce51e34dd7404d8e0;hb=master Nov 07 20:05:59 blau: that's fine for apps that hog resources all the time, but what about the app that has a bug that causes it to just screw up once in a while? Nov 07 20:06:01 yeah, I know... the thing driving me crazy is I used a compiled version of that to generate my boot img... and I'm just not good enough at c to totally decipher it Nov 07 20:06:03 aah he ran away Nov 07 20:06:32 why do you need to decipher? just run the app Nov 07 20:06:55 yes, I did, and when I try to boot with the image I created I get infinite reboot Nov 07 20:07:01 aah Nov 07 20:07:06 maybe it's that the image itself is broken somehow Nov 07 20:07:31 I noticed that when I gzip+cpio the ramdisk it's not the same size as the original despite the fact that I changed only one character Nov 07 20:07:49 once people learn how to code for the platform hopefully the resource hog apps will disappear (doubt it) Nov 07 20:08:00 alansj: What platform did you run mkbootimage on? It doesn't look endian-safe to me. Nov 07 20:08:04 and also that the ramdisk still has some readable strings in it (eg filenames) whereas the original ramdisk didn't have them Nov 07 20:08:08 linux Nov 07 20:08:28 it's possible I'm making the ramdisk wrong Nov 07 20:08:34 I mean as in CPU platform. ppc, intel? 32-bit, 64-bit? Nov 07 20:09:43 x86_64 Nov 07 20:09:56 try 32, the alignment on the structure might be different Nov 07 20:10:08 thx Nov 07 20:10:57 actually, it looks like it's probably ok from an alignment pov... still worth a try though. Nov 07 20:11:19 gcc -m32 Nov 07 20:12:28 why can't i view my shared work calendar in the calendars app? Nov 07 20:12:58 nvm it wasn't checked ;] Nov 07 20:14:28 alansj: how are you making the ramdisk? Nov 07 20:15:00 jimp, when creating my own ramdisk, should I be able to see strings in a hex editor or does that indicate that I somehow did the cpio/gz wrong? Nov 07 20:15:38 A gzipped file likely won't have any recognizable strings Nov 07 20:15:52 find . | cpio -o -H newc | gzip Nov 07 20:17:12 See Documentation/filesystems/ramfs-rootfs-initramfs.txt in the kernel source for more details if you need them. Nov 07 20:18:28 is the newc format important? Nov 07 20:18:28 Also see e.g. scripts/gen_initramfs_list.sh Nov 07 20:19:59 Maybe, I'm just reading the docs :P Nov 07 20:20:25 Looks like GNU cpio's default is "binary" not newc Nov 07 20:21:42 thanks for the pointers... I hadn't run across this before Nov 07 20:23:18 I'm headed out, later Nov 07 20:23:25 later Nov 07 20:28:21 wow. with http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=443041 it seems like we basically -have- the eng device already. cool deal. Nov 07 20:28:52 anybody know what Google's London based mobile development team work on? Im sure it's not android Nov 07 20:30:09 Disconnect - not quite... we can brick our phones if we screw up both recovery and normal boot - but engineering devices can still use HTC's bootloader to reload if they do that Nov 07 20:30:15 true Nov 07 20:31:25 VickiWong, I think they are the J2ME guys.. google maps mobile and gmail(j2me) etc.. but I might be wrong Nov 07 20:32:25 tauno: that sounds reasonable to assume, good idea Nov 07 20:35:10 has anyone managed to get a working jad for gmail? wanted to try it in the j2me runner. Nov 07 20:35:29 what do you mean by working? :) Nov 07 20:39:12 working as in the dl links all show 404 and i can't find the "dl to your computer" link on the web page Nov 07 20:40:42 [21:30:15] Disconnect - not quite... we can brick our phones if we screw up both recovery and normal boot - but engineering devices can still use HTC's bootloader to reload if they do that Nov 07 20:40:52 well i would like to see if SD flash is still available in the production SPL.. Nov 07 20:41:05 but I need that dump *hint hint ryebrye* Nov 07 20:41:17 it is. thats how you do the manual update to rc29 Nov 07 20:41:23 Disconnect: incorrect Nov 07 20:41:27 you use recovery for it Nov 07 20:41:27 not SPL Nov 07 20:41:43 what does it mean if I can't get the gps to update it's location? Nov 07 20:41:47 RyeBrye! you there? Nov 07 20:41:58 androoid: Go outside? Nov 07 20:42:41 it works under maps application but not under my app Nov 07 20:42:47 Disconnect, http://pastebin.com/d6adf507c Nov 07 20:43:08 prodution crash, bbl Nov 07 20:43:14 i'm just doing like Nov 07 20:43:17 mLocationListener = new SampleLocationListener(); Nov 07 20:43:17 getLocationManager().requestLocationUpdates(PROVIDER_NAME, t, 0,mLocationListener); Nov 07 20:43:18 androoid: you using apis or reading smd7 ? Nov 07 20:43:30 where t is in ms Nov 07 20:44:58 ..nevermind. fscking vmware. hate it. a lot. Nov 07 20:45:24 a question guys, why would you want to flash your g1 with the recovery image? Nov 07 20:45:36 Hrm... there's no way to distinguish an event from the panel Menu button and the keyboard button with the same glyph? Nov 07 20:45:50 ascii__: you don't want to. it's the "backup" image that's used to update the main image. Nov 07 20:46:05 yah its one of those 'if you have to ask' kind of things :) Nov 07 20:46:46 ttuttle, ah, that explains.. Nov 07 20:47:30 my fuckin phone spent all my money on downloading that g1 update google released.. Nov 07 20:47:34 without asking me.. Nov 07 20:47:36 :@ Nov 07 20:47:39 wow. Nov 07 20:47:46 some bad designs Nov 07 20:47:52 ascii__: money? Nov 07 20:48:03 ascii__: all your money? you use the g1 without unlimited data!?! Nov 07 20:48:10 ascii__: 1. OTA works over wifi. 2. T-Mobile doesn't cap data. Nov 07 20:48:12 i sure do.. Nov 07 20:48:14 are you insane? Nov 07 20:48:19 jasta: in many countries you don't have unlimited internet Nov 07 20:48:19 ascii__: That's a bad idea. Nov 07 20:48:25 for mobile internet Nov 07 20:48:26 i'm in australia though.. Nov 07 20:48:27 cmonex: then don't buy a G1! Nov 07 20:48:32 in my country only vodafone has it Nov 07 20:48:37 and only with FUP Nov 07 20:48:43 hey can you guys remind me if there's some setting on the phone you need to enable to have it run adbd? Ever since restoring my boot img, adbd doesn't start up (although I can start it manually from a terminal on the phone) Nov 07 20:48:48 on a vodafone prepaid thingy.. Nov 07 20:48:51 jasta: this is why i said: "some bad designs". Nov 07 20:48:52 tauno: cool thanks btw :) Nov 07 20:49:13 if g1 requires unlimited internet. that's not a good design :) Nov 07 20:49:20 it should warn you before downloading stuff from the internet though...so i can enable wifi for example! Nov 07 20:49:36 ascii__: i'm on vodafone prepaid too, but different country... you can get unlimited only on contract :/ Nov 07 20:49:38 cmonex: i disagre wholeheartedly. google is making a bold statement about how fucking stupid your carrier's policies are. Nov 07 20:49:54 and you're the idiot for getting caught in the middle of that fight. Nov 07 20:50:04 jasta: have fun calling people idiot =) Nov 07 20:50:22 alansj: The setting to enable adbd is Settings/Applications/Development/Enable USB debugging (or something like that). Nov 07 20:50:24 cmonex, yea, i know...still fuckin expensive down here..australians are weird when it comes to internet and phones...living in 1996.. Nov 07 20:50:46 http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/07/google-patches-up-android-jailbreak-with-rc30-update/ Nov 07 20:50:51 i'm originally from norway, much better there..here they still have caps on broadbands.. Nov 07 20:50:53 mikez5: thanks Nov 07 20:50:54 adbd is off by default to avoid annoying Hardware Wizard dialogs when plugging into Windows machines. Nov 07 20:50:55 * ttuttle does not get Austrailia. The internet *sucks*. Nov 07 20:51:08 hello Nov 07 20:51:15 jasta: btw, nice idea on gettign unlimited, but i would like to pay less for less (i dont need unlimited mobile internet so far.) Nov 07 20:51:21 and so that's what i do.. Nov 07 20:51:27 paying minimal amount =) Nov 07 20:51:33 cmonex: in the US, unlimited mobile internet is very cheap. Nov 07 20:51:37 how cheap? Nov 07 20:51:45 $25/mo on t-mobile, with 400 SMS messages included. Nov 07 20:51:51 25 is too much for me in my country.. Nov 07 20:51:51 25USD, of course Nov 07 20:51:56 that isnt chea Nov 07 20:52:01 cheap Nov 07 20:52:23 tzones hack for 5usd is cheap Nov 07 20:52:35 25USD isn't cheap? in my experience most europeans pay through the nose for their mobile phones. they get hardly any minutes for a lot of money, especially when you factor in the exchange rates. Nov 07 20:52:37 i pay fuckin $40 bucks for a 100mb cap.. Nov 07 20:52:44 ascii__: That sucks. You should move ;-) Nov 07 20:52:45 jasta: i pay about 10usd or less Nov 07 20:52:50 for my mobile internet from vodafone Nov 07 20:52:56 i don't pay anything. Nov 07 20:52:56 cmonex: and how much do you get? Nov 07 20:53:01 ttuttle, only got 1 more year down here.. :p Nov 07 20:53:02 free mobile internet here. Nov 07 20:53:02 and its enough data for me, but i wouldn't want to download OTA over it Nov 07 20:53:04 ;) Nov 07 20:53:15 ascii__: Yeah, so, in the future, download OTA updates over Wifi. Nov 07 20:53:24 ttuttle: so you can disable automatic OTA? Nov 07 20:53:31 cmonex: I'm not sure. Nov 07 20:53:35 that's the problem :S Nov 07 20:53:36 ttuttle, but i don't know when the fuck it is downloading :p..it didn't say "can i download now".. Nov 07 20:53:37 ya Nov 07 20:53:53 doesn't the g1 only officially sell with carriers that have unlimited data plans? Nov 07 20:54:00 if only it did i could have enabled my wifi.. Nov 07 20:54:14 ascii__: doesn't it start with "you have an update, apply now?" Nov 07 20:54:21 Disconnect: Yes, after it's downloaded it. Nov 07 20:54:26 oooh :( Nov 07 20:54:26 * ascii__ is soooon done with my current Android app project....yey! Nov 07 20:54:36 jasta: Nov 07 20:54:43 it will be sold on hungarian tmobile Nov 07 20:54:43 You can't disable OTAs, unless you hack around it using the root sploit Nov 07 20:54:46 Disconnect, it does, AFTER it already downloaded it :p Nov 07 20:54:48 and they don't offer unlimited! Nov 07 20:54:53 only vodafone does in my country ... Nov 07 20:55:00 (and only on contract. i'm prepaid) Nov 07 20:55:10 i have a counter in my app hehe. so far since i got my G1 a couple of weeks ago, i have used almost 1GB with my app alone :) Nov 07 20:55:22 what app? :O :O Nov 07 20:55:30 http://five.googlecode.com Nov 07 20:55:35 jasta: look out, it might slow down in another 2 weeks. Nov 07 20:55:39 cmonex: and how much do you pay for minutes? :) Nov 07 20:55:40 once you hit your cap. Nov 07 20:55:45 jasta: I don't call Nov 07 20:55:52 lol Nov 07 20:55:52 just data and some sms Nov 07 20:55:54 Dougie187: their contract no longer has a cap. Nov 07 20:56:02 the cap isnt 1gb anymore Nov 07 20:56:05 cmonex: they don't let you buy plans like that in the US, but those are atypical anyway. Nov 07 20:56:07 jasta: they have a cap where they throttle your bandwidth though. Nov 07 20:56:15 jasta: not a hard cap. a soft cap. Nov 07 20:56:18 yah, USA is very different Nov 07 20:56:19 no Nov 07 20:56:21 the US mobile pricing is very competitive, to the point that i can confidentally say it beats most countries in the world that tout progressive wireless policies Nov 07 20:56:30 a t-mobile guy I talked to on the phone said there is a 10GB/mo cap. dunno if he knew what he was talking about though Nov 07 20:56:50 the softcap is 10gb now Nov 07 20:56:50 incandenza, that's correct Nov 07 20:56:53 incandenza: maybe means FUP, over 10GB you are going to get watched :) Nov 07 20:57:05 vodafone does that here over 5GB on the "unlimited" plan, heh Nov 07 20:57:07 after 10 they limit you to modem speeds.. around 50k Nov 07 20:57:16 I see Nov 07 20:57:37 oops, is that USA tmobile? Nov 07 20:57:53 jasta: nice app idea :) Nov 07 20:59:00 when are they gonna start release tv-shows and stuff for handhelds? Nov 07 20:59:12 i would love that.. Nov 07 20:59:19 cmonex: well, you can't use it :P Nov 07 20:59:29 ascii__: some carriers how them. Nov 07 20:59:48 cmonex: i expect to average my monthly usage at about 3GB Nov 07 21:00:01 all things told, not just my app i mean Nov 07 21:00:02 sweet..not far away then.. Nov 07 21:00:05 i use a lot of data, and i leave wifi off always Nov 07 21:00:22 my favorite comment so far in the android source tree: Nov 07 21:00:24 /* There is no friggin' way to pass the status of the memory initialization, because of the damn macros and all the other crap */ Nov 07 21:00:27 what element of the G1 uses most battery? Nov 07 21:00:37 jasta: you should try to get to your cap sometime just so you could see how your app works after that. Nov 07 21:00:39 (it's an external - so not google's stuff, btu still funny) Nov 07 21:00:42 i find my G1 goes empty way to quickly.. Nov 07 21:00:46 ascii__: GPS, 3G radio, WiFi radio, screen... Nov 07 21:01:12 Dougie187: i talked with a sales rep quite a bit and read through the contract, they took that verbiage out. Nov 07 21:01:57 ascii__: calibrate it Nov 07 21:02:08 * Disconnect points to the topic where it still doesn't mention that (sigh) .. Nov 07 21:02:13 i was skimming a bit when i read it so i might have missed something that i thought was irrelevant Nov 07 21:02:20 but from what i read, it looked like i could sue if they cap me Nov 07 21:02:27 Disconnect, how?what? :p Nov 07 21:02:28 basically just drain it until it will not boot. at all. then charge it (at least 8 hours, 24 is best) UNINTERRUPTED. then it'll be much better about battery. Nov 07 21:02:35 is there any way to get internet from the usb on the G1 ? :P Nov 07 21:02:44 jasta: not hard cap... just throttle. Nov 07 21:02:55 Dougie187: it's still not in the contract that they can do this Nov 07 21:03:09 is it online somewhere? Nov 07 21:03:19 Disconnect, ahh..sounds good..i'll def give that a try...would you charge it powered off then, or? Nov 07 21:03:19 i had a lengthy discussion with the sales rep about this too (who, of course, knows nothing) but the contract didn't contain any insane verbiage Nov 07 21:03:27 Dougie187: the contract i signed with t-mobile? no :) Nov 07 21:03:36 no, i mean their terms of service. Nov 07 21:03:45 oh i dont know Nov 07 21:03:49 cmonex, sorry I missed your Q before. yes, it's tmo-usa Nov 07 21:03:58 Dougie187: the contract is self-contained as far as i know. Nov 07 21:04:05 this was the last bit i remember hearing about it. Nov 07 21:04:10 ascii__: either way. modern devices (esp embedded linux) tend to mostly boot while charging anyway (to allow intelligent charging) .. g1 might be different (since there are 2 cpus etc) but it probably doesn't hurt to boot it Nov 07 21:04:11 "Our goal, when the T-Mobile G1 becomes available in October, is to provide affordable, high-speed data service allowing customers to experience the full data capabilities of the device and our 3G network. At the same time, we have a responsibility to provide the best network experience for all of our customers so we reserve the right to temporarily reduce data throughput for a small fraction of our customers who have excessive or disproportionate Nov 07 21:04:31 if they say something like "we don't guarantee any particular speed", I don't see how you can sue if it gets slower Nov 07 21:04:38 granted that i quite old. Nov 07 21:04:58 is* Nov 07 21:05:13 Dougie187: it doesn't matter what they say on their website or anything. the contract is what legally binds me to their service, and they can't violate it. Nov 07 21:05:19 ascii__ "when are they gonna start release tv-shows and stuff for handhelds?" <-- it's called DVB-H and it's already there.. and it's totally free :) Nov 07 21:05:21 they can't do what's not in the contract, basically. Nov 07 21:05:44 tauno, for everyone?...or only for us citizens? Nov 07 21:05:46 if they disrupt my service in a way that violates the contract, then they can be sued :) Nov 07 21:05:53 jasta: is there a guarantee for some set speed in your contract though? Nov 07 21:06:04 Dougie187: no, but there is a minimum guarantee of operable performance Nov 07 21:06:10 that is the section i read thoroughly :) Nov 07 21:06:18 jasta, that's in Estonia and some other EU countries.. don't know about US Nov 07 21:06:24 and i think with most phones it's easy for them to argue that a cap is within the scope of the contract Nov 07 21:06:36 with a device like the G1 or iPhone, it would not be since the basic function of the device does require heavy data usage Nov 07 21:06:42 tauno, and you are talking about antenna signals, so a decoder is need in the phone? Nov 07 21:06:47 so for instance i could say the built-in amazonmp3 app no longer works right, or the youtube app no longer works Nov 07 21:06:52 and that has impaired the function of the device Nov 07 21:06:55 and so is unacceptable. Nov 07 21:07:14 jasta: built-in != basic function. Nov 07 21:07:23 languish thx :) Nov 07 21:07:29 ascii__ yes Nov 07 21:07:33 if it did, we could all get months and months of free service while we wait for camera and email to work. Nov 07 21:07:54 ascii__ some new phones ship with it (like Nokia n96) Nov 07 21:08:03 Disconnect: well, actually i would define basic function as everything it claims to do in its advertising. Nov 07 21:08:15 aha..could be interesting..i know its big in japan.. Nov 07 21:08:27 Disconnect: but we'll see if they even exercise this right. i doubt that they will, honestly. Nov 07 21:08:28 when i was over there they all watched tv on the subway and stuff.. Nov 07 21:08:32 damn asocial people :p Nov 07 21:09:30 has there been any more rumours about other models running android? Nov 07 21:09:47 last i heard was motorola and samsung was working on some stuff.. Nov 07 21:10:09 someone said that at&t cto made an announcement @ web20 but i haven't seen any supporting evidence. Nov 07 21:10:18 ascii__: last i heard motorola stopped working on it. Nov 07 21:10:31 Dougie187, oh really?? Nov 07 21:10:33 mainly because of their loses. Nov 07 21:10:34 thats bad news.. Nov 07 21:10:39 Disconnect: yea, michael arrington let it go citing at&t ceo. Nov 07 21:11:15 ny post puts out an article saying at&t is still investigating putting android on its devices... Nov 07 21:11:51 i think the biggest drawback with android today, is that the htc dream isn't good enough designed to use with android.. Nov 07 21:12:19 so android doesn't get as hyped as for example the iphone.. Nov 07 21:12:49 unix_lappy: http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/06/not-so-fast-android-isnt-coming-to-atandt-just-yet/ Nov 07 21:12:51 romainguy - you around? Nov 07 21:13:08 thats the last i heard about AT&T too. Nov 07 21:13:17 Dougie187: yea, sorry, SFC, not NYP. Nov 07 21:13:56 i feel like i'll be getting screwed if i do get a g1 and i'll be getting screwed if i dont...so i'm done lusting over it ;-) Nov 07 21:14:11 if you are going to get one, now is the time Nov 07 21:14:13 I guess they aren't really impressed. Nov 07 21:14:15 ... before it gets patched Nov 07 21:14:19 same with sprint though... :( Nov 07 21:14:24 ascii__: yes htc dream is so ugly. Nov 07 21:14:28 and why isnt it VGA? WVGA? Nov 07 21:14:31 =) Nov 07 21:14:43 but i like that there is a hw keyb! Nov 07 21:15:02 cmonex: what about the touch pro? Nov 07 21:15:13 Dougie187: could care less about root access. Nov 07 21:15:27 erm, RyeBrye. i care more about functionality. Nov 07 21:15:35 i think they could have removed that damn joystick thingy, and moved the menu-button to another place.. Nov 07 21:15:40 i don't care for root access either Nov 07 21:15:50 of course, if I was developing at that low a level sure, i'd want that root access, but i'm not. Nov 07 21:15:57 and don't see the need for the answer/decline buttons..when you've got touchscreen.. Nov 07 21:16:03 Dougie187. i have a touch pro-- what is your question? Nov 07 21:16:21 unix_lappy: root is useful for some functionality =) Nov 07 21:16:25 I rather like the trackball. Have you played with it in the browser? Much better for hitting small links than your fingers are. Nov 07 21:16:36 cmonex: nm then. Do you like the touch pro? Nov 07 21:16:36 cmonex: root is not a killer app. Nov 07 21:16:54 Dougie187: it's ok, the stock rom is quite buggy on it out of the box though Nov 07 21:16:55 unix_lappy: but root is an app killer ;) Nov 07 21:16:56 the hw is nice Nov 07 21:17:00 you can wait for bluetooth api or you can do it yourself Nov 07 21:17:07 andyross: agreed there, navigating to an area on the browser via touchscreen + trackball = heaven. Nov 07 21:17:22 Dougie187: luckily that cfan be helped though Nov 07 21:17:24 can* Nov 07 21:17:31 I was the one who unlocked the SPL on it Nov 07 21:17:42 thats cool Nov 07 21:17:50 now just get android on it. Nov 07 21:17:57 SPL? Nov 07 21:18:01 hehe, i think that'll be possible too =) Nov 07 21:18:08 thats what im waiting for. Nov 07 21:18:16 SPL: bootloader. the tricolour thing on your G1 is when it's sitting in SPL Nov 07 21:18:23 (camera + power) Nov 07 21:18:36 ah, okey :) Nov 07 21:19:32 mnovaktesting: what are you testing? Nov 07 21:20:11 yes... done now :) Nov 07 21:20:22 lol what is it? Nov 07 21:20:29 connecting from the G1 Nov 07 21:20:31 ascii__: it's also what loads the linux kernel or the recovery Nov 07 21:20:33 oh ok Nov 07 21:21:48 so would it be possible to install android on other htc models? Nov 07 21:22:02 ascii__: not if it doesn't have a keyboard.... at least yet Nov 07 21:22:10 or it wouldn't be much use. Nov 07 21:22:25 yea, sure.but there'll be an on-screen one soon.. Nov 07 21:22:31 there is dzo onscreen keyboard in the framebuffer driver for some htc devices Nov 07 21:22:32 ascii__: it has been done before yes Nov 07 21:22:39 just quite alphaish =) Nov 07 21:22:52 sweet.. Nov 07 21:23:06 what is the current best htc model? Nov 07 21:23:13 when it comes to hardware specs.. Nov 07 21:23:42 touch HD Nov 07 21:24:02 spikebike: what are you basing best on? Nov 07 21:30:15 oh where oh where could a vpn client beeeeee Nov 07 21:30:16 heh Nov 07 21:30:17 spikebike Nov 07 21:30:26 my personal opinion only ... but it's htc athena Nov 07 21:30:37 i wonder what mnovak is testing Nov 07 21:30:38 maybe a tie between the two :) Nov 07 21:30:48 as HD has better screen res, but athena has other stuff that's better. Nov 07 21:30:57 Touch Pro HD Nov 07 21:31:02 but it doesn't exist Nov 07 21:31:06 right =( Nov 07 21:32:34 i remember my last HTC...was a Qtek(HTC) 2020i :D Nov 07 21:33:09 which is? Nov 07 21:33:50 i'm trying to find out.. Nov 07 21:34:03 look on wiki.xda-developers.com Nov 07 21:36:06 HTC Alpine..is that correct? Nov 07 21:36:07 :p Nov 07 21:36:31 Also had a HTC Tanager.. Nov 07 21:36:36 good old days.. Nov 07 21:36:57 most satisfied with my HTC Prophet though.. Nov 07 21:38:59 * benley should ebay some of his various excess mobile devices Nov 07 21:39:20 anyone want an E61? Nov 07 21:39:27 benley, anything good? Nov 07 21:39:27 or a ppc6700? Nov 07 21:40:12 cmonex I'm a sucker for 800x480 and 256MB ram Nov 07 21:40:19 what does the athena have? Nov 07 21:41:12 are there any plans on opening up the 3g frequencies on the G1?...since it's locked to t-mobiles frequencies.. Nov 07 21:41:47 howdy Nov 07 21:43:28 ascii__: you'd literally need to solder additional chips to support additional frequencies. Nov 07 21:43:29 spikebike: 16GB SSD, vga out, usb host, detachable keyboard, 5" screen Nov 07 21:43:36 and.. quadband HSDPA Nov 07 21:43:56 fuck htc with their recent decisions to make different versions that are only dualband each.. Nov 07 21:44:01 jbq, that bad?....why the hell would they do something like that? :p Nov 07 21:44:16 cmonex heh, is it still a phone Nov 07 21:44:20 it is :) Nov 07 21:44:27 well, mostp eople will want to use BT headset for it Nov 07 21:44:31 I don't really do voice Nov 07 21:44:39 cmonex, that Athena would be fuckin sweet with android on it.. Nov 07 21:44:41 btw i saw the touch HD yesterday at a local meeting Nov 07 21:44:45 ascii__: yes :D Nov 07 21:44:55 ascii__: I'm not an RF designer, but apparently they used discrete 3G radio amplifiers for each frequency band, so that there are 3 amplifiers on the device (2G, 3G1700, 3G2100) Nov 07 21:44:56 anyway, so the HD, i saw it beside an iphone 3g.. Nov 07 21:45:17 slightly thicker but a bit less in length, so wow. Nov 07 21:45:22 and *fast* Nov 07 21:45:26 Mmmm Nov 07 21:45:28 sounds great Nov 07 21:45:29 i have the diamond, i know what to compare to.. Nov 07 21:45:38 diamond (and touch pro too)is slowerū Nov 07 21:45:47 I basically want a fast n800 with celluar and android Nov 07 21:45:53 hehe Nov 07 21:45:56 n800 can run android yes? Nov 07 21:45:59 and the HD has the same screen Nov 07 21:46:02 i didnt install it on n810 yet :/ Nov 07 21:46:03 somewhat Nov 07 21:46:08 I want to see it on g1 first. Nov 07 21:46:11 no keyboard yet Nov 07 21:46:16 oh =( Nov 07 21:46:23 er HD has the same resolution as the n800 Nov 07 21:46:25 or what do you mean? Nov 07 21:46:31 n810 android has no keyb, or somethingelse? Nov 07 21:47:11 i prefer n810's screen to HD, but 800x480 is quite uncommon for WM (or any other mobile device) so no wonder the HD is so great ;) Nov 07 21:47:20 would android be able to support video calls? Nov 07 21:48:25 and the g1 does pretty damn well with multitasking and 192MB ram Nov 07 21:48:33 More ram certainly won't hurt ;-) Nov 07 21:49:02 is it physically limited to 192 or is that the bank thing in the kernel? Nov 07 21:49:32 bank thing? Nov 07 21:49:35 hey tmzt! Nov 07 21:49:49 Just out of curiosity, is there a way to dump the physical memory of the phone to debug it? Nov 07 21:49:54 spikebike: yes i think 192 is better than the n8xx's 128... :S Nov 07 21:50:46 I think it's two factors Nov 07 21:50:53 maemo sucks with 128M Nov 07 21:51:03 I think overall it's alot less memory efficient than android Nov 07 21:51:05 I think the 64ram is in the msm and the 128 is external, but I could be wrong Nov 07 21:51:12 tmzt I think you are right Nov 07 21:51:33 RyeBrye: /proc/mem is there, but it's only the 101M mapped to the ARM11 core. There is a /dev/pmem driver which is android-specific that might get better access, but I don't know. Nov 07 21:52:08 so you are limited to that 101m all the time in android? Nov 07 21:52:17 On the main CPU, yes. That's all the kernel sees. Nov 07 21:52:43 which 101MB, andyross? Nov 07 21:53:00 You mean where, physically? No idea. But /proc/meminfo reports 101M available to the kernel. Nov 07 21:53:05 oh.. Nov 07 21:53:27 I think the 64ram is in the msm and the 128 is external, but I could be wrong --->that would be the same as diamond then :) Nov 07 21:53:44 There's also a baseband CPU, a GPU and a DSP that all presumably have some allocation. And like I said there's a "pmem" driver that seems to be specific to android that might expose those other regions. Nov 07 21:53:52 that's where I'm getting that from then, I thought that was for trout Nov 07 21:54:11 where did you see the info tmzt? Nov 07 21:54:23 htc-linux, should be in the logs Nov 07 21:54:42 Ah... so I'm guessing the 64M region is owned by the GPU and framebuffer, which explains why a Brew document about the MSM7500 encouraged the use of vertex buffer objects in OpenGL, which only make sense if vertex memory is somewhere that regular vertex arrays can't point to. Nov 07 21:54:47 the way the memory is mapped for board-trout and/or raph/diam Nov 07 21:55:17 there are mmu bits for different things Nov 07 21:55:40 * andyross would really, really love to see a MSM7x00 datasheet at some point... Nov 07 21:56:22 like, on htc-linux they found that the gpios (on arm9) can be mapped into memory and avoid proc_comm in some cases Nov 07 21:56:26 tmzt can i see this somewhere for trout? Nov 07 21:56:31 this mmu info Nov 07 21:56:31 using permission bits Nov 07 21:56:57 I think that all came from the source, the .S files mostly (asm) Nov 07 21:57:31 is it possible to run two versions of an application? Nov 07 21:57:32 hmm, ok, i'll look. :) Nov 07 21:57:38 I want to use my app and develop it at the same time Nov 07 21:57:47 without having to delete my db all the time and such Nov 07 21:57:49 actually, all thhis should be there somewhere. Nov 07 21:57:55 now i have to brb a bit.. Nov 07 21:59:36 KNY: why not make two "different" applications? Nov 07 21:59:57 thoraxe, eh? like MyApp.apk and MyApp+1.apk? Nov 07 22:00:19 So is the touch HD supposedly going to be the G2? Nov 07 22:00:26 that's a nice phone :-p Nov 07 22:18:00 Hi everyone! Nov 07 22:18:07 hi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nov 07 22:19:26 Quick question: I just did the "jailbreak", and I'm really glad to have root access. Is there anything I should be doing to preserve access to my phone? (T-Mobile hasn't pushed RC30 on me yet) Nov 07 22:21:33 http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Preventing_OTA_Updates Nov 07 22:21:40 that method is believed to work Nov 07 22:21:54 a method that would almost certainly work involves more risk, but is to reflash it Nov 07 22:22:04 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=443041 Nov 07 22:23:54 Hrm. Nov 07 22:24:05 Thanks for the links. Nov 07 22:24:34 I like the idea of blocking OTA updates, although it sounds like it will just drain the battery down. Nov 07 22:25:16 only if they are in the process of sending you one Nov 07 22:25:33 so until RC30 hits, it wont drain any more battery Nov 07 22:25:39 but yeah, it's not a long-term solution Nov 07 22:26:53 Someone (prob. xda-forums) pointed out that the Updater application itself can just be removed. Nov 07 22:28:03 where is the updater application? Nov 07 22:28:28 What about leaving behind a root-privileged executable on the phone? (Preferably one that asks for a p/w or something) Nov 07 22:28:36 I forget. But the instructions were along the lines of "remount /system rw and remove Update.apk and Update.odex". Didn't look more closely. Nov 07 22:28:37 not possible Nov 07 22:28:57 Ah. Why not?> Nov 07 22:29:06 /system is reflashed in its entirety each time Nov 07 22:29:14 Howdy folks - Has anyone as yet made build instructions for using other jvm-capable langauges with android? e.g: jruby, jython, rhino(javascript), etc? Nov 07 22:29:15 Can anyone point me to a tutorial on how to build Android source (Not App SDK) using Eclipse? Nov 07 22:29:16 ahhh Nov 07 22:29:25 Yeah, there's an "Updater.apk/odex" in /system/app. Haven't tried it, ymmv, yada yada Nov 07 22:29:47 I'll keep it on mine though... It's probably the easiest way to sniff out the OTA URLs Nov 07 22:30:39 or just wait :) Nov 07 22:32:37 walker: http://mantrid.wordpress.com/2008/04/28/do-android-dream-of-something-more-than-java/ Nov 07 22:33:16 seems scala has the most potential here Nov 07 22:34:50 i like java :) Nov 07 22:35:21 phosphoricx: you mean you want to build the entire project from git using Eclipse? Nov 07 22:35:34 has anybody installed the modded recovery image here successfully? Nov 07 22:36:05 romainguy_: yes Nov 07 22:36:21 you can't Nov 07 22:36:24 at least not easily Nov 07 22:36:27 you have to use make Nov 07 22:36:41 make is really easy Nov 07 22:37:03 ffs T-Mobile Nov 07 22:37:10 I'm on the phone again and they still havent sent a replacement Nov 07 22:37:21 DJTachyon: what happened to your phone? Nov 07 22:37:27 it came defective Nov 07 22:37:38 The Accelerometer/Compass package is broken Nov 07 22:37:41 sfuentes: Nuts. Nov 07 22:37:52 * walker realizes he has the wrong nick. Nov 07 22:37:58 I have been waiting for a cross ship for 2 weeks Nov 07 22:38:26 romainguy_: ok, running make is cool. Is there an easy way to add all the src and inc files to the project without having to select each directory? Nov 07 22:38:49 phosphoricx: yeah, you just run make at the root of the project :) Nov 07 22:39:00 sfuentes: Thanks for the link, I was about ready to spend a lot of time trying to get rhino to work on android. Nov 07 22:39:04 romainguy: lame eh? This is my 4th call to the return center :P Nov 07 22:39:18 romainguy_: by add them I mean so that I can use code completion and go to implementation, etc Nov 07 22:39:46 phosphoricx: ah, I don't know Eclipse enough to know how to do this Nov 07 22:39:58 lethalcode: I thought I heard Rhino did some wacky stuff that might not work on Dalvik. Nov 07 22:39:59 I thought there was an eclipse project file in the git tree already Nov 07 22:40:05 there should be a .classpath Nov 07 22:40:06 romainguy_: oh ok, I"ll hope over to the eclipse channel, thanks for your help!!! Nov 07 22:40:11 lethalcode: keep in mind the link is relatively old ... not sure what's the current status Nov 07 22:40:20 Not to bring up the IDE flame again, but surely the sane thing to do would be a separate Eclipse project for each component. A single project for the whole platform? Yikes. Nov 07 22:40:38 sfuentes: Right, I'll keep my eye out, but for now, that rhino-on-android project is on the backburner. Nov 07 22:40:46 andyross: having a single project works just fine Nov 07 22:41:04 you can't use eclipse to literally build the system image, but you can use eclipse to edit all of the files, and since it does its own compiles "on the side", you get completion, refactoring, etc. Nov 07 22:41:31 romainguy: so what do I do if 4 G1's show up at my door? :) Nov 07 22:41:44 but you have to sort of go back-and-forth because you still have to use command-line make for the "real thing" and also for the circular dependencies (e.g. eclipse can't build from .aidl -> .java, or from resources -> R.java) Nov 07 22:41:46 lethalcode: one more link: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/230193/what-can-you-not-do-on-the-dalvik-vm-androids-vm-that-you-can-in-sun-vm Nov 07 22:41:46 DJTachyon: you call them :)) Nov 07 22:41:54 andyross: what works best in my experience is to have one project for the entire platform and just include the source files you are interested in Nov 07 22:41:58 heh .. especially if my account says $180 :P Nov 07 22:42:01 x4 Nov 07 22:42:05 cbeust_: same thing for me Nov 07 22:42:13 lethal one thing about dalvik is that you can't generate new code Nov 07 22:42:24 alright well i have to go sand spackle in my bathroom .. later all :P Nov 07 22:42:31 so that rules out any language that does that like python, lisp, and I believe ruby Nov 07 22:42:56 this IntelliJ 8 is really cool Nov 07 22:43:11 sfuentes: Hm. So I can compile .js files to davlik, but then can't use, e.g, eval(), load(), etc. Nov 07 22:43:27 sfuentes: Is what I'm coming away from that second one with. Nov 07 22:44:22 romainguy - did you do any playing around on the home screen and using the accelerometer? i.e "shake to change screens" ... etc? Nov 07 22:44:37 lethalcode: that was my interpretation as well. what do u think spikebike? Nov 07 22:45:03 romainguy - just for a 'impress your friends' kind of feature - I think it would not be great for usability in the long run though :) Nov 07 22:45:04 RyeBrye: there is a shake to change screen feature already Nov 07 22:45:09 it's been there since 0.9 Nov 07 22:45:12 Oh? Nov 07 22:45:16 romainguy - where is it? Nov 07 22:45:18 it's just disabled by default Nov 07 22:45:23 you have two ways to enable it Nov 07 22:45:27 change a constant in the code Nov 07 22:45:31 or change a system property Nov 07 22:45:42 if you do a setprop launcher.sensors 1 in the shell Nov 07 22:45:42 sfuentes, yeah, it's discussed in the google I/O dalvik talk as well Nov 07 22:45:45 -1+true Nov 07 22:45:47 no runtime generation of code Nov 07 22:45:51 and restart the acore process, it will be abled Nov 07 22:45:53 enabled Nov 07 22:45:54 cool :) Nov 07 22:46:19 at least not easily Nov 07 22:46:35 I guess you could port the dalvik/dex/java toolchain to the android platform Nov 07 22:46:35 I removed this feature for the 1.x branches though Nov 07 22:46:52 then write a file, compile it, and install it ;-) Nov 07 22:47:26 spikebike: cool. i still need to watch that video Nov 07 22:47:35 it's a good one Nov 07 22:47:46 although I suspect most python code would work anyways Nov 07 22:48:07 spikebike: that's my goals ... python :) Nov 07 22:48:08 for all I know jython has that limitation already Nov 07 22:48:26 runtime generation of python code is legal, but not common afaik Nov 07 22:48:34 so i'm thinking a slightly modified jython Nov 07 22:48:40 * lethalcode heavily uses rhino on a server, likes javascript far more than java, was hoping for the same. Can live without eval()/load(). Nov 07 22:48:42 would be the easiest way Nov 07 22:49:08 dalvik is a damn nice virtual machine I don't see why it shouldn't work Nov 07 22:49:26 spikebike: It's a vampire. No reflection. Nov 07 22:49:35 my best guess is that dalvik on android is more efficient than jvms on similar hardware Nov 07 22:49:38 heh Nov 07 22:49:57 * lethalcode hits the "laughter & applause" button on his (soon to be released) LaffTrack app on the g1. Nov 07 22:50:10 I just successfully built my own boot image, flashed it, and booted to it. This allowed me to edit init.rc Nov 07 22:50:22 romainguy - what does launcher.opengl control? Nov 07 22:50:31 Cool, so you removed the console from init.rc to fix the root exploit? Nov 07 22:50:36 seems dalvik is more slim and sexy than jme ;) Nov 07 22:50:47 heh, not yet Nov 07 22:50:52 had to do more important things first Nov 07 22:51:02 sadly, I learned that setting ANDROID_BOOTLOGO 0 doesn't get rid of the logo Nov 07 22:51:07 bastards Nov 07 22:51:11 web gateway b0rked in NYC? Nov 07 22:51:37 RyeBrye: well it enables Home on top of OpenGL Nov 07 22:51:44 the bootlogo is in the bootloader. There is support for a splashscreen in init, but I don't think it is used. Nov 07 22:51:44 at least it used to between M5 and 1.0 Nov 07 22:51:59 the API to enable OpenGL has been removed until we stabilize the implementation Nov 07 22:52:07 so I wonder what ANDROID_BOOTLOGO is supposed to do Nov 07 22:52:10 gotcha Nov 07 22:52:28 and I wonder if the bootloader is reading logo.rpe or something else Nov 07 22:52:39 *logo.rle Nov 07 22:53:11 evil Nov 07 22:53:12 use the source, Luke Nov 07 22:53:17 alansj: where did you see ANDROID_BOOTLOGO referenced? Nov 07 22:53:20 RC30 update is being rushed outto disable root Nov 07 22:53:23 romainguy__: Nuts. I was hoping I could use it to make a 3d shooting game using orientation sensor. Nov 07 22:53:24 init.rc Nov 07 22:53:53 lethalcode: ?? you can do totally do that Nov 07 22:54:15 I was referring to the API that makes it possible to run the Canvas and the View API on top of OpenGL Nov 07 22:54:23 you can still use OpenGL directly Nov 07 22:54:46 i just realized that right-handers must find the keyboard much more convenient than i do Nov 07 22:55:01 wastrel: why? (i'm left handed) Nov 07 22:55:15 romainguy_: Thought you disabled GL? Nov 07 22:55:22 alansj: I believe frameworks/base/libs/surfaceflinger/SurfaceFlinger.cpp uses the property "debug.sf.nobootanimation" now Nov 07 22:55:24 assuming they hold the device in their left hand, they just slide open the screen with their thumb and the keyboard is right there. Nov 07 22:55:28 Oh, duh me. Nov 07 22:55:33 * lethalcode isn't entirely here. Nov 07 22:55:42 jasta: for me, i'm holding it in my right hand, i slide open the kb and then need to turn the device to get at the keys Nov 07 22:56:03 lethalcode: like I said, we disabled the ability to run the Canvas/View APIs on top of GL, not GL itself Nov 07 22:56:05 wastrel: i hold it with my right hand and slide it up with my left hand or right thumb Nov 07 22:56:11 But I was hoping I could use a canvas (to draw, e.g: guns, ammo, etc) on top of the gl. Nov 07 22:56:19 grepping the code, it looks like ANDROID_BOOTLOGO does nothing. Nov 07 22:56:22 i find it very comfortable to hold and use Nov 07 22:56:29 lethalcode: but then that'd be 2D, not 3D :) Nov 07 22:56:48 mikez5: yes; see my previous remark Nov 07 22:57:22 fadden: so where would I go about setting that prop? Nov 07 22:57:29 romainguy_: Yeah. 2d heads up display with a 3d environment full of approaching zombies. And your G1's a mounted gun you have to use to prevent them from reaching you. (in 360 degree rotation, and maybe later add flying zombies?) Nov 07 22:57:46 Or maybe I'll make it all 2d and fake the 3d view. Nov 07 22:57:55 lethalcode: you can do this in GL directly Nov 07 22:58:03 you can even draw with a Canvas on top of a GL view Nov 07 22:58:10 it'll be a bit slower though Nov 07 22:58:15 alansj: init.rc has some "setprop" lines Nov 07 22:58:22 ah yes Nov 07 22:58:22 Okay, great. Nov 07 22:59:42 any game which requires you to spin 360 degrees to play it would be really tough :) Nov 07 23:00:00 It'd be cool though Nov 07 23:00:30 that's the grief I have with most iPhone games Nov 07 23:00:38 they make you move the phone around Nov 07 23:00:48 but because it's your screen, it makes the games just annoying to play Nov 07 23:01:02 web working again <3 Nov 07 23:01:24 romainguy_: people get confused when you give them a ton of featurse in the phone. they forget how to write apps that make sense. Nov 07 23:01:26 yeah, If I were still in school I would hate those kind of games Nov 07 23:02:29 It's like when CD-ROMs got built into game systems and suddenly everything was a shooter-on-rails. Nov 07 23:02:40 jasta: yeah we noticed :) Nov 07 23:02:58 fadden: with crappy green/blue screen videos :) Nov 07 23:03:16 did you guys see the bubble level app? that thing is neat :) Nov 07 23:03:16 * RyeBrye hates shooter-on-rails games Nov 07 23:03:24 Yeah, bubble-level is cool Nov 07 23:03:38 so use audio interface to know what your game is doing when the phone is being used to shake/spin/move around Nov 07 23:04:02 it works surprisingly well - except the vibrate-on-level feature needs to be fixed so that it doesn't read the sensor while it's vibrating - because it causes it to pulse constantly Nov 07 23:04:09 don't always need to keep eyes glued to screen Nov 07 23:06:57 klaxon looks like a cool alarm :) Nov 07 23:08:00 fadden: it worked, although not as expected... now there's just no animation at all. I was hoping for console output. But still, cool! Nov 07 23:08:31 alansj: your device should now boot 0.3 seconds faster since we don't have to animate anything. Nov 07 23:08:52 hoorays Nov 07 23:09:07 now to replace the power-on logo Nov 07 23:15:16 is that possible? Nov 07 23:15:27 i.e. the iniit Nov 07 23:15:35 er initrd Nov 07 23:29:41 anyone know if my client doesnt support ctcp but it does support raw commands is there a way to do ctcp commands? Nov 07 23:30:49 seems possible, but not practical Nov 07 23:31:31 which ctcp commands? Nov 07 23:31:59 like version Nov 07 23:32:09 those kind of commands Nov 07 23:33:33 how did you geta cloak with 2 names in it? Nov 07 23:40:58 anyone else have battery issues with the g1 . i bhave everything off pretty much and its draining really fast Nov 07 23:41:52 Delvien: do you have "adb" set up? Nov 07 23:45:47 how do I prevent google from auto updating my r00t axs Nov 07 23:46:28 can the hosts file be hacked Nov 07 23:46:50 not sure if that helps Nov 07 23:47:13 iptables is enabled Nov 07 23:47:27 ionstorm: install recovery.img with custom public key compiled in Nov 07 23:47:37 and then the next update will hopefully fail :) Nov 07 23:48:00 assuming OTA here Nov 07 23:48:05 well it willl continue to check and download Nov 07 23:48:12 yeah.. Nov 07 23:48:18 if you delete the ota certs does that help? Nov 07 23:48:21 in security folder Nov 07 23:48:24 no Nov 07 23:48:31 oh, so what are those used for? Nov 07 23:48:48 (i didnt think it was for flashing, i assumed it was something to do with the downloading.) Nov 07 23:48:50 wl contiue to check and donload Nov 07 23:49:07 so remove the app that does the check&download.. i dont know which one it is? Nov 07 23:49:08 http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Preventing_OTA_Updates Nov 07 23:49:11 it checks after download Nov 07 23:49:23 yea im going to remove the otacerts file Nov 07 23:49:36 I just moved mine Nov 07 23:49:36 "will at least prevent you from waking up one day to a phone that doesn't love you as much as it did the day before" Nov 07 23:49:38 lol Nov 07 23:49:41 :) Nov 07 23:49:51 oh well this link says nothing new Nov 07 23:50:02 i tried that it just keeps downloading failing and repeat Nov 07 23:50:04 a good fix would be remove the ota app too Nov 07 23:50:19 does no one know what is responsible for it ? Nov 07 23:50:24 Yes, anyone have a link for what does that? I think it's in the updater application, but I wasn't sure if updater provided additional functionality Nov 07 23:50:48 what do you call updater application? Nov 07 23:55:09 there is a package called "Updater" in the packages directory Nov 07 23:55:13 (of the source build) Nov 08 00:02:20 so moving the otacerts should fix it ? Nov 08 00:02:32 why not just block the ip in the hosts file Nov 08 00:02:54 no otacerts cant fix it Nov 08 00:03:02 anyone also got problems in getting his apps listed on http://market.android.com/publish/Home ?? Nov 08 00:03:24 unless you enjoy downloading an update 6 times a day Nov 08 00:03:51 I think it fixes it fine for me - because once it downloads it- I'll kill the process and I'll slurp off the update - repack it - then update my phone Nov 08 00:04:09 once my phone has the correct version string, when it phones home it will see I'm up to date and note care Nov 08 00:04:39 sure this weekend i home to write a filesystem compare tool Nov 08 00:05:07 i.e.wgat is every diff between rc19 and 29 Nov 08 00:05:31 hm just f ind the place it stores the version string in Nov 08 00:06:14 any way to just trick the phone into thinking it already has RC30? Nov 08 00:08:21 results of my mucking with flashing boot, complete with instructions on how to roll your own boot image with a custom ramdisk (lets you permanently change init.rc): http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2876959&postcount=25 Nov 08 00:09:02 just got back from t-mob Nov 08 00:09:14 darn fools wouldn't give me a g1 Nov 08 00:09:30 i have a little bad credit ... so what! Nov 08 00:11:45 Is there an app the will sync fully with Microsoft Outlook yet? Nov 08 00:12:35 g1er - not until we know the actual version string of RC29 Nov 08 00:12:42 g1er - err... of RC30 Nov 08 00:13:16 These OTA updates take so damned long, who knows how long it will be before anyone even gets it Nov 08 00:13:31 Anyone determined if it's possible to downgrade the system image from the sdcard? Nov 08 00:13:48 downgrading might not work Nov 08 00:13:54 got cha, thanks RyeBrye. Nov 08 00:14:06 updates knows how to upgrade data for instance Nov 08 00:14:11 but they don't know about downgrades Nov 08 00:14:13 downgrading doesn't work - the update scripts check the version strings Nov 08 00:14:15 * pawalls nods. Nov 08 00:14:27 RyeBrye: not only that, but the code itself (the platform) might not work Nov 08 00:14:31 Oh, right Nov 08 00:14:36 RyeBrye, and I assume the version string is in a file that's part of the signed manifest? Nov 08 00:14:40 for instance if I downgrade my dev device from our mainline to 1.0, bad things happen :) Nov 08 00:15:15 pawalls - yes - once the phone loses root access it will be a long uphill battle to get it back Nov 08 00:16:20 Figure. Just thought it was worth a shot ;-) Nov 08 00:17:07 http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Preventing_OTA_Updates Nov 08 00:17:11 couldn't you just setuid root on the shell and then upgrade? Nov 08 00:17:15 Nope Nov 08 00:17:26 The /system is wiped out -> ENTIRELY <- on the update Nov 08 00:17:35 it reformats it and reflashes it Nov 08 00:17:38 so setuid root a different shell and put it in /data? Nov 08 00:17:47 nope, /data is mounted explicitly nosuid Nov 08 00:17:53 If they're smart, /data is mou... e:f;b Nov 08 00:17:53 ahh Nov 08 00:18:13 well, that's frustrating... Nov 08 00:18:27 sfuentes lame on no g1 Nov 08 00:18:38 think they would let you pay full price if anything Nov 08 00:18:49 i guess this describes the relationship between OEMs and users moving forward Nov 08 00:20:17 I'm fine with focusing on developing things at the app level - but I don't like my hardware telling me "no" :) Nov 08 00:20:18 So I'm hoping to setup something that will let me slurp an update and figure out every file it updates Nov 08 00:20:28 spikebike - that's pretty easy Nov 08 00:20:34 it updates the entire /System Nov 08 00:20:41 and it also applies updates to the data Nov 08 00:20:43 well that doesn't mean every file in /System changes Nov 08 00:20:56 er it's re-written, but not necessarily different Nov 08 00:20:57 alansj: there is not fbcon so you won't get console output Nov 08 00:21:01 * RyeBrye is lazy and would rather just unpack / reflash Nov 08 00:21:19 so I could pick and choose say a new version of the mail client Nov 08 00:21:27 Anyone happen to know the difference between VideoView#pause and #stopPlayback() ? Nov 08 00:21:37 but skip a file that makes it more secure Nov 08 00:21:44 Neither is documented. Nov 08 00:23:16 * lethalcode looks at source. stopPlayback releases it, too. Nov 08 00:23:59 I'd guess that stop removes the pointer to the current place in the file Nov 08 00:24:08 i.e. stop -> play starts at the beginning Nov 08 00:24:13 where pause -> play resumes Nov 08 00:24:28 spikebike: stop also releases the resources, apparently. Nov 08 00:24:48 RyeBrye: have you seen the actual rc30 or are you just saying that based on past updates the entire /system is updated? Nov 08 00:25:00 RC29 blew away /system Nov 08 00:25:31 RyeBrye - PM Nov 08 00:25:55 it reformats each update Nov 08 00:26:45 you could probably create an updated version of rc29 that self-identifies as something higher than 30 in order to force it on Nov 08 00:27:12 assuming you've updated your rescue partition to accept the keys you use to sign it Nov 08 00:33:09 does anybody know why there's a recovery.img in system? Nov 08 00:34:43 nope, but very good question... Nov 08 00:34:46 is it used for anything? Nov 08 00:34:53 I still dont have my g1 =( Nov 08 00:35:33 cmonex: It's the image that the G1 boots to when updating (or restoring -- hence "recovery") the main system. Nov 08 00:35:56 isn't that image on mtd1? Nov 08 00:37:14 ttuttle: I know that Nov 08 00:37:27 cmonex: oh Nov 08 00:37:34 i disassembled to patch the existing one for the heck of it.. so why wouldnt i know Nov 08 00:37:36 but why is it under /system too? Nov 08 00:37:46 because, yeah, it's the image in mtd1 too Nov 08 00:38:21 maybe it boots that image from the filesystem when doing ota updates (rather than from mtd1)? Nov 08 00:38:42 i dont think the SPL mounts /system.. Nov 08 00:38:53 no, it would rather load it from the partition, is my guess Nov 08 00:39:08 (SPL = bootloader) Nov 08 00:45:41 does the current VNC client for android support copy/paste? Nov 08 00:46:13 dunno, is it in the market? Nov 08 00:46:19 I was hoping for a vnc server ;-) Nov 08 00:46:21 Anybody here watch movies on their G1 and mind testing + giving feedback on a movie playing app I've made? Nov 08 00:46:49 any new codecs? Nov 08 00:46:59 vnc server? Nov 08 00:47:00 Nope, it just uses the hardware decoder. Nov 08 00:47:02 are you crazy? Nov 08 00:47:09 yeah, i need to use my phone from a computer Nov 08 00:47:11 or another phone Nov 08 00:47:17 sure Nov 08 00:47:22 like say to give a talk on android Nov 08 00:47:30 oh Nov 08 00:47:52 also, there should be a VNC that supports sound Nov 08 00:47:53 and copy/pasting Nov 08 00:47:59 i dont think one does yet Nov 08 00:48:03 if I could boot a g1 image in the emulator that would be fine as well Nov 08 00:48:09 I seem to recall that SurfaceFlinger had a built-in VNC server Nov 08 00:49:09 mmm Jagermeister Nov 08 00:49:36 and Stargate Worlds Beta :P Nov 08 00:50:29 anybody else think the new toshiba laptop with 3x GPUs is rediculous? http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/605154/toshiba-launches-laptop-with-three-gpus.html# Nov 08 00:50:38 Actually the first android exploit we hit was via the VNC server. Nov 08 00:50:50 hey, what does the SPL look like? I managed to get a screen with dark red, bright green, and grey stripes... but I think I just threw some garbage in the the fb Nov 08 00:51:04 alansj: that is SPL Nov 08 00:51:10 does it report a version number on it? Nov 08 00:51:12 The exploit was aimed at windows machines, but it somehow managed to cause a phone to send an SMS message by chance. Nov 08 00:51:17 no Nov 08 00:51:19 and the modelid (DREA100, iirc) Nov 08 00:51:24 hmm, ok, then not. how did you get this screen? Nov 08 00:51:29 the spl screen has: Nov 08 00:51:31 I got it by placing a different logo.rle and initlogo.rle in root Nov 08 00:51:40 red, green, blue, and white at the bottom.. Nov 08 00:51:46 the chars on it are yellow usually Nov 08 00:51:52 oh, heh Nov 08 00:52:04 then i guess your rle is just messed up Nov 08 00:52:05 alansj how? Idn't it overwritten at boot? Or did you rewrite the initrd? Nov 08 00:52:06 I get those three bands and then the bottom third looks like whatever was left in the fb when I shut down Nov 08 00:52:15 alan screenshot? Nov 08 00:52:17 spikebike: I rewrote init.rc Nov 08 00:52:24 er rather Nov 08 00:52:27 so init.rc is not signed? Nov 08 00:52:27 yeah show photo :) Nov 08 00:52:36 does the sytem boot up properly? Nov 08 00:52:37 I did that too, but this was just from packing a new boot img with those two files replaced Nov 08 00:52:46 yeah it boots up properly Nov 08 00:52:49 hang on I'll take a photo Nov 08 00:55:46 I found a strange incantation that might produce a more plausible image Nov 08 00:55:46 any comments on that non-offical tethering app? How about a reverse tethering system where you can get connectivity over usb instead of wifi? Nov 08 00:56:07 compile ppp for android ;-) Nov 08 00:57:15 http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn1761cz8.jpg Nov 08 00:57:49 you broke it Nov 08 00:57:50 wow, funky Nov 08 00:58:06 and the image at the bottom looks blurry but it's actually blurry (like how it looks just before you shut down) Nov 08 00:58:07 Don't suppose there's anybody here familiar with VideoView that can explain why I'm getting errors 0x80000000 (-2147483648,0) and 0xD (14, 0)? Comes after a seekTo(); start(); pause(); Nov 08 00:58:26 so does that screen look like the SPL or not? Nov 08 00:58:28 anyone published apps outside of android market? Nov 08 00:58:31 err, 0xE, as if it matters. Nov 08 00:59:20 mocsrox sure Nov 08 00:59:34 seems like 1/2 the market is the lite/demo version Nov 08 00:59:42 not to mention code.google.com Nov 08 00:59:49 numerous demos Nov 08 00:59:59 spikebike: whats the canonical process for that? Nov 08 01:00:06 so random side note, i got a bunch of porn out of the tmob proxy :/ i know it wasn't in the original cuz i host the original. and there's no porn. just comics. Nov 08 01:00:40 no screenshot app, now i know why.. and when i went to save it (evidence, it wasn't that good) it redownloaded. Nov 08 01:01:34 alansj: Thanks for sharing some image-creation details in that post. I would love to read something with a bit more context if you'd be willing to write it. Nov 08 01:01:34 (redownloaded the correct file i should say, not the porn. so i have no proof. but the wif saw it too.) Nov 08 01:01:55 sure, in the meantime let me know if you have any questions Nov 08 01:02:09 * lethalcode thinks he's figured it out, heads out. Nov 08 01:02:17 most of what I learned was from other people here... I just put the pieces together Nov 08 01:02:17 spikebike: my gf just got me a g1!! Nov 08 01:03:17 lol Nov 08 01:03:22 there is a heaven Nov 08 01:03:29 i think my wife wants a BB Storm Nov 08 01:03:56 sfuentes sweet Nov 08 01:03:59 marry her Nov 08 01:04:03 lol Nov 08 01:04:10 ind33d Nov 08 01:04:19 DJTachyon: yeah i know my gf wants a bb storm too Nov 08 01:04:26 alansj: Some questions: What have/haven't you been able to achieve so far? What exactly did you do with your new image? What potential brick-making steps are present where a user might want to be careful. Nov 08 01:04:40 spikebike: she must be the "one" Nov 08 01:05:00 of course now you must return the favor Nov 08 01:05:16 lol Nov 08 01:05:35 maybe that was her plan Nov 08 01:05:41 So, I've seen good simple writeups on "How to obtain root" and "How to disable updates to prevent losing root", but not yet: "How to keep root but disable this root shell listening to all key presses". Nov 08 01:06:20 cworth: yah. i thought about it, decided i was too paranoid to shut that down just yet. Nov 08 01:06:21 all I've done is edit init.rc... so far I tried flipping ANDROID_BOOTLOGO to 0 but it did nothing, and then instead added setprop debug.sf.nobootanimation 1 which disabled the boot animation Nov 08 01:06:52 Disconnect: Yeah, I don't want to be the first to try it. ;-) Nov 08 01:07:02 and then I replaced logo.rle and added initlogo.rle (because I saw a dmesg message that it was not being found on boot) and got those crazy images on boot Nov 08 01:07:14 That's why I'm asking other people who have done things to document them for us fraidy-cats. ;-) Nov 08 01:07:18 heh Nov 08 01:07:25 I created .rle files by running to565 on bmps Nov 08 01:07:32 sfuentes IMO much of the value of having a g1 is the ability to talk to other g1 folks Nov 08 01:07:43 thus my wife has one. Nov 08 01:07:58 ok its a bad sign when i look at smoking gun's worlds blankiest blank and think "wow that looks like a lot of fun!" Nov 08 01:07:58 so apparently what I was doing to create the .rles was unsuccessful Nov 08 01:08:48 to565 is here (no idea what kind of file its expecting -- probably bmp -- or what dimensions): http://git.source.android.com/?p=platform/build.git;a=tree;f=tools/rgb2565 Nov 08 01:08:50 were you using /usr/bin/ppmtolss16? Nov 08 01:09:19 no I had never seen that before Nov 08 01:09:29 spikebike: how so? fav5, mob2mob, gtalk, or just in general? Nov 08 01:09:44 ohhhhh... now that looks like what I need Nov 08 01:10:03 maybe Nov 08 01:10:18 alansj: "Change init.rc to remove animation" sounds like a good thing to have documented as a single task. Nov 08 01:10:21 if you unpublish an application, why can't you delete it? Nov 08 01:10:25 is it simple to reset a g1 to use another google account? Nov 08 01:10:26 (from the market) Nov 08 01:10:34 sfuentes well a bunch of stuff. Sharing your position, keeping a joint cal, being reachable over IM, not having to use SMS Nov 08 01:10:36 sfuentes, you could do a factory reset, no? Nov 08 01:10:51 yes, that would work. I just did that to my own phone. Nov 08 01:11:02 alansj: I see a mkbootimg command in your post, but there are some steps that are a bit fuzzy, (like extracting the kernel from an existing image, and flashing things afterward). Nov 08 01:11:03 sfuentes RC19? RC29? Nov 08 01:11:15 cworth: yes, I need to better document that Nov 08 01:11:39 don't have the phone yet ... my gf called me asking if she can use her google account for now Nov 08 01:11:56 alansj: Anyway, I'm glad to review instructions, (but don't want to debug by bricking the phone trying them). ;-) Nov 08 01:12:11 sfuentes, tell her tough and to get her own :) Nov 08 01:12:16 oh, you're fairly safe from bricking (I know I shouldn't say that) because you can always restore Nov 08 01:12:22 I bricked my phone the first time through Nov 08 01:12:45 but you just boot into restore mode and make sure you have the rc29 update on your sdcard, named update.zip Nov 08 01:12:48 leave the bootloader alone (and we can't touch it anyway, at least not yet) and you can always reflash rc29. probably. Nov 08 01:12:50 Oh, then "always restore" I need documented as well. I don't know that process. Nov 08 01:13:12 KNY: she asked me for my google account password Nov 08 01:13:14 Disconnect: yes, assuming future updates don't also update the restore image Nov 08 01:13:20 alansj, Disconnect: See, you guys just *know* some of this stuff that I don't. :-) Nov 08 01:13:34 alansj: 'always' as in 'right now if you brick it' :) Nov 08 01:15:41 Disconnect: Ah. We know that we can't touch the bootloader? Nov 08 01:15:50 spikebike: if your wife ask u for your password, would u give it to her? Nov 08 01:16:11 And I've heard suggestions here that it would be possible to mess things up enough that recovery won't work, (even without touching the bootloader). Nov 08 01:16:23 cworth: we're pretty sure we can't Nov 08 01:16:24 spikebike: sounds like a trust test to me Nov 08 01:17:02 cworth: its a weird split architecture, the bootloader etc lives somewhere we can't see. if we fuck up mtd0 bad enough it might not be configured anymore but even that probably isn't critical. (i'm not testing :) ..) Nov 08 01:17:41 uh Nov 08 01:17:48 reboot Nov 08 01:17:50 woah Nov 08 01:17:57 lol Nov 08 01:18:02 welcome to yesterday Nov 08 01:18:15 srsly Nov 08 01:18:18 * cworth wants to sit down this weekend and write a good "So you want to play with your G1" front-page introduction for a wiki. Nov 08 01:18:22 oyeoj: Yes, really. Nov 08 01:18:27 yeah i just tried it Nov 08 01:18:48 oyeoj: Heh. Yes. We know that works. Many more commands as well. Nov 08 01:19:03 i guess that's how the jailbreak works? Nov 08 01:19:06 http://android.jim.sh/index.php/ConsoleShell Nov 08 01:19:07 or is that a separate issue? Nov 08 01:19:25 oyeoj: Same thing. There's a root shell listening to /dev/console (oops!). Nov 08 01:19:50 whats random is it works from like any app Nov 08 01:20:11 oyeoj: Right. The shell is listening to the actual keyboard device. Nov 08 01:20:27 that seems wrong too Nov 08 01:20:42 even ignoring the fact that it's a root shell Nov 08 01:20:46 oyeoj: It certainly wasn't intended, if that's what you mean. Nov 08 01:20:49 yah Nov 08 01:21:41 But it's actually not *too* hard to see how this came about. (Though in many similar systems in might have been a getty running waiting for a valid username/password combination.) Nov 08 01:22:31 yah Nov 08 01:22:35 kinda crazy Nov 08 01:22:36 So the introduction I want to write would explain why some of us want to do this kind of stuff, (scope out the intended audience and properly caution people who don't actually want to play at this level). Nov 08 01:22:46 um. its hard to see how it made it past a basic security check.. Nov 08 01:23:09 And after that link to several pages describing the basic tasks here. Nov 08 01:23:16 "ok whats running after boot? hey.. whats with this shell? and why is there a telnet daemon?) Nov 08 01:23:27 Disconnect: I intentionally wasn't commenting on that aspect. Nov 08 01:23:50 Disconnect: I'm just saying it's easy to see how it came to be. Nov 08 01:23:51 embedded linux step (whatever, about 10 before a production image goes gold) is "ok, what executables are we shipping and why?".. Nov 08 01:23:52 yeah including the telnet daemon is ... strange Nov 08 01:24:20 clearly it started as a way to get into potentially-trashed engineering/dev phones. which is fine. but.. wow. that -should- have been a while ago.. Nov 08 01:24:40 Disconnect: How it came to be *shipped*, I won't speculate about. :-) Nov 08 01:25:28 disconnect telnetd wasn't running, thus easy to miss Nov 08 01:25:56 spikebike: erm... "what are we shipping and why" .. there are only 2 directories with system binaries. maybe 60 total. thats not hard to check.. Nov 08 01:26:14 chmod? no. cp? no. etc. its not a linux box, this shit gotta -go- Nov 08 01:28:13 well telnet worked as intended till relatively late in the process Nov 08 01:29:25 seems unfortunate to be denied access to your own g1 shell Nov 08 01:29:35 shell no Nov 08 01:29:37 root yes Nov 08 01:29:37 assuming u want updates Nov 08 01:29:49 well updates can be repackaged Nov 08 01:29:55 what's the screen resolution on the g1? Nov 08 01:30:04 u can't sudo either, right? Nov 08 01:30:17 there is no (legit) root access in android. Nov 08 01:30:29 so no backups. and no vpn clients. and no screenshots. Nov 08 01:30:47 and don't type reboot. Nov 08 01:30:54 heh Nov 08 01:31:20 what about sshd? Nov 08 01:31:33 nope Nov 08 01:31:35 is there a way to package that Nov 08 01:31:41 well at least no access to ports under 1k Nov 08 01:31:45 no way to package anything that needs root or that runs native Nov 08 01:31:49 although I don't know if android enforces that Nov 08 01:32:16 alansj: 320x480@~160dpi Nov 08 01:32:22 thx Nov 08 01:32:47 would a rewrite of sshd using android api be possible? Nov 08 01:32:56 probly too much work Nov 08 01:33:05 don't rewrite security software. just ... don't. Nov 08 01:33:47 not me ... just wondering if its possible Nov 08 01:34:10 anything is possible. but its a bad idea. Nov 08 01:34:18 lol Nov 08 01:35:18 Disconnect: im going to put lighthttpd on my g1 ... just u wait and see Nov 08 01:35:30 go for it Nov 08 01:35:31 i got netcat working Nov 08 01:43:12 spikebike: I'm having trouble getting ppmtlss16 working, have you used it before? Nov 08 01:43:39 I think I'm giving it ppms that it doesn't like Nov 08 01:50:42 ][{{?\ Nov 08 01:51:07 }}*&#${ Nov 08 01:56:02 language, people! This is a family channel Nov 08 01:57:06 he's prolly on his g1, i dunno what my excuse is. Nov 08 01:57:23 line noise Nov 08 01:57:24 :) Nov 08 01:57:27 cat on keyboard Nov 08 01:58:21 is RC30 rumored to remove root access, make SIM-unlocking harder, or both? this article seems to imply it's just for SIM-unlocking: http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/07/google-patches-up-android-jailbreak-with-rc30-update/ but doesn't mention root Nov 08 01:58:37 jailbreak is root. unlock is sim-unlock Nov 08 01:59:00 says nothing about sim-unlock in that article Nov 08 01:59:29 the jailbreak link is wrong is all Nov 08 01:59:34 I just want 'em to fix the "reboots-in-the-middle-of-a-call" bug Nov 08 02:00:35 ? Nov 08 02:00:38 mine has been ok Nov 08 02:00:44 are you typing reboot during calls? :) Nov 08 02:01:36 hey guys, I need a little help finding an Android/G1 related video. I have googled quite a bit for it and thus far have failed. The video I'm looking for was created in October. It's of Android/G1 being demo'd by a google (manager? director? dev?) with an earring, with a glass window behind him, showing google maps, street view, the compass, and other things on the device. Nov 08 02:02:13 is that the one where the dumb chick keeps asking if google streetview is somehow live? Nov 08 02:02:19 not sure Nov 08 02:02:40 it's the one where he's asked about multitouch and intimated that it's a patent issue Nov 08 02:02:50 (yes mam, there is a black van assigned to each and every g1 owner to make sure that the street view matches what they can see if they put the damn phone down) Nov 08 02:03:15 A director with an earring: we have no such thing :) Nov 08 02:03:26 heh Nov 08 02:03:40 White guy, i *think* shaved head but I can't rememeber well enough Nov 08 02:04:01 demo'ing it for some bloggers I guess Nov 08 02:04:20 he may have been sitting on a couch in front of the window I mentioned Nov 08 02:05:04 the site that had the video up, where I originally saw it, seems to have removed it in favor of touch pro videos Nov 08 02:05:13 but I know it was linked elsewhere Nov 08 02:05:21 (and thanks for any help finding it) Nov 08 02:10:25 http://androidcommunity.com/forums/f10/for-the-record-g1-does-not-have-multi-touch-like-the-iphone-729/ Nov 08 02:12:39 Does anyone here use meebo for chat? Nov 08 02:15:01 you guys seen this: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=680 Nov 08 02:15:46 Disconnect ahh that got me to engadget, found the vid, thanks man http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/23/t-mobile-g1-video-hands-on/ Nov 08 02:15:57 languish: np Nov 08 02:16:00 Sorium: yah 2 days ago Nov 08 02:16:15 and thats not the original source. SplasPood is the original discoverer. Nov 08 02:16:44 anyway-- anyone know how meebo sends your IM info to non-meebo IM clients? Nov 08 02:16:56 is that all proxied through its own servers? Nov 08 02:17:01 yes Nov 08 02:17:15 or at least, i'd bet they use their existing infrastructure Nov 08 02:17:45 it doesn't make sense to do purely client-side anyway on a mobile device Nov 08 02:17:46 I'm not sure if that sucks or not Nov 08 02:17:56 yah it would be a lot of connections Nov 08 02:18:03 but they say they log your IMs... in the privacy statement Nov 08 02:18:06 esp on a mobile device with such a brain-damaged wifi config Nov 08 02:18:10 that's kinda screwed up Nov 08 02:18:11 yah Nov 08 02:18:15 welcome to meebo Nov 08 02:18:19 yeah forget that. Nov 08 02:18:26 I need a real IM client Nov 08 02:18:40 heh well they offer to log your conversations Nov 08 02:18:42 first you need a real wifi powersaving mode Nov 08 02:18:45 that doesn't use SMS and doesn't log your accounts... Nov 08 02:18:53 yeah that too Nov 08 02:18:56 is it true that aim/yahoo/msn on the g1 costs you a sms message Nov 08 02:19:03 i ran out of battery in like 2 or 3 hours today Nov 08 02:19:04 awesome thanks Nov 08 02:19:07 yes it's true spikebike Nov 08 02:19:13 spikebike: dunno on g1 but they charge that way for everything else on tmob Nov 08 02:19:18 evil Nov 08 02:19:18 they do Nov 08 02:19:22 yes Nov 08 02:19:26 I'd be poor right now if that was true on gtalk Nov 08 02:19:27 its a rip off. Nov 08 02:19:41 but then again, an sms (at what, 20 cents?) takes way less data than 1/20th of a second of voice. Nov 08 02:19:48 which costs (at most) about 1/20th of 15 cents Nov 08 02:19:51 heh, yup Nov 08 02:20:03 we can get bits from jupiter cheaper than SMS Nov 08 02:21:07 * offby1 too has pondered the mysterious economics of SMS Nov 08 02:21:20 offby1: so have at least 2 class action attempts Nov 08 02:22:17 mostly (iirc) relating to having to pay for unsolicited incoming messages when tmob basically said "tough, sorry" Nov 08 02:23:59 doesn't the rise of smart phones make WAPS obsolete? Nov 08 02:24:22 I want to bring my sms usage down to zero. Nov 08 02:24:22 btw: is there a way to make a web page know whether ur on Android or an iPhone to give you a condensed screen web page? Nov 08 02:27:38 Sorium: I assume so Nov 08 02:27:50 presumably each phone's browser sends a distinct UA string Nov 08 02:27:59 sorium look at the HTTP header Nov 08 02:28:14 particularly USER-AGENT Nov 08 02:28:34 cbeust_, in this video, you can see the person from Google I mentioned at around timecode 6:55. Can you tell me who it is? (not looking to contact him, I just need his name to find the beginning this video) http://www.viddler.com/player/d9a04ab7 Nov 08 02:28:38 go to http://www.useragent.org/ with your phone to see what it is Nov 08 02:31:16 Gawd, user agent strings are an insane mess Nov 08 02:32:05 instead of user agent strings, I propose: the interactive "GNU configure" protocol! It runs before the HTTP session is established; the server and client interrogate each other about their various features, and ... Nov 08 02:32:07 * offby1 ducks **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Nov 08 03:00:02 2008