**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Nov 09 02:59:57 2008 Nov 09 03:00:21 tretle_: that starts from windows, but it replaces it in the ram when running Nov 09 03:02:19 I guess all we need now is a standard boot loader Nov 09 03:02:21 :) Nov 09 03:13:28 tretle you could just buy a g1 Nov 09 03:19:36 I don't suppose we have any UK folk here, do we? Nov 09 03:28:54 ok anyone using fbreaderj? it doesn't save location in the book when the app is killed Nov 09 03:28:57 v. annoing Nov 09 03:28:58 annoying Nov 09 03:33:51 For how long should the "Unlocking SIM card..." message persist? Nov 09 03:33:59 it's been there for a minute or more ... Nov 09 03:34:17 Has anyone thought about asking ESRI to support their mobile GIS platform on Android? Nov 09 03:35:07 I have an excellent idea for an augmented reality mobile device for utility field workers... Nov 09 03:36:20 telnetd doesn't seem to open port 23, any ideas? Nov 09 03:36:38 have you upgraded ro RC30? Nov 09 03:36:45 i dont think so Nov 09 03:36:54 i did Nov 09 03:37:00 menu-settings-about phone, near the botton Nov 09 03:37:02 telnet cannot open port 23 unless its root Nov 09 03:37:14 :X someone wiser Nov 09 03:37:31 so if you do not have the root bug anymore (rc30) you cannot use telnet on ports lower than 1024 Nov 09 03:38:00 the build number says kila-user 1.0 TC4-RC19 Nov 09 03:38:19 cool, your just missing a step somewhere then Nov 09 03:38:50 paigeadele, reboot the phone and as soon as you get to the home screen type "telnetd" and hit enter Nov 09 03:38:53 then try to connect to it Nov 09 03:39:02 if you know the local ip that is Nov 09 03:42:16 ok the slashdot trick worked Nov 09 03:42:21 :] Nov 09 03:42:56 ahh Nov 09 03:43:06 slashdot or dotslash Nov 09 03:43:26 wastrel: yeah Nov 09 03:43:35 fbreader needs some work Nov 09 03:43:50 ok another person here Nov 09 03:43:54 Im build 29 Nov 09 03:44:03 hang on a sec Nov 09 03:44:09 we're gonna try it again on mine Nov 09 03:44:14 it didn't work for me though Nov 09 03:45:03 it worked for me Nov 09 03:45:04 lol Nov 09 03:51:07 so from what I understand.. Nov 09 03:52:14 I need a heavily modded Wing boot loader to put this on the wing? or would a boot loader from a G1 be better? or is this basically an impossible task far beyond someone who can't even write html effeciently... Nov 09 03:52:26 this = android Nov 09 03:53:58 just curious of the possabilities :) Nov 09 03:55:57 g1er: my impression is that the bootloader is more closely-tied to the hardware than the software it's loading Nov 09 03:56:46 (for instance, linux has a different bootloader for pretty much every desktop platform it runs on Nov 09 03:56:56 i dont think your radio will work though Nov 09 03:57:45 DarkriftX, that's ok. My wing is about dead anyway. :) Nov 09 03:57:51 lol Nov 09 03:57:57 i wanna get android on my axim x51 Nov 09 03:59:25 thanks gdsx, kind of what I gathered from the other HTC attempts out there. Nov 09 04:11:07 wow, dying out in here earlier then normal Nov 09 04:11:37 refining my statement from waaaaaay earlier "Android system recovery utility E:can't open /cache/recovery/command" Nov 09 04:11:57 nk. I'm not going to learn much tonight :P Nov 09 04:12:31 ^^ what is stated in the home+power alt+l screen Nov 09 04:12:44 g1er: yes, that's an interesting error message... I've been wondering about it Nov 09 04:13:24 I'm wondering if it checks there first, then sys memory for the recovery install Nov 09 04:13:58 does it check sys memory for the recovery install at all? Nov 09 04:14:11 as far as I could tell, it only ever checks /sdcard/update.zip Nov 09 04:14:14 but I could be wrong Nov 09 04:14:36 the "command" part makes it seem like its not an image its looking for Nov 09 04:15:29 o.0 ok, i just re-installed RC30 update.zip.. Nov 09 04:15:53 deleted a bunch of stuff...then new boot etc. Nov 09 04:16:10 g1er, did you hear the good news? (well, not for you) Nov 09 04:16:19 they figured out how to get to rc30 with root Nov 09 04:16:25 lol ya Nov 09 04:16:44 hey guys.. anyone know if you can get a unique identifier from an android phone? Nov 09 04:16:50 e.g. a device id or something? Nov 09 04:16:52 now if only i can still find an rc19-29 g1 when im ready to buy Nov 09 04:17:07 mocsrox, someone asked about this a week ago and i think the answer was no Nov 09 04:17:11 mocsrox, that's been asked on android-beginners Nov 09 04:17:16 I think there's an ANDROID_ID Nov 09 04:17:17 mocsrox: the IMEI Nov 09 04:17:19 kinda on my own over here :P (gives spikebike the eveil stare) jk, i learned alot anyway Nov 09 04:17:20 try searching there Nov 09 04:17:44 g1er, return it saying the usb plug is loose or something lol Nov 09 04:17:51 lol Nov 09 04:17:53 if I define something in arrays.xml, can I access that in the code? (strings.xml has getString()) Nov 09 04:18:03 make it seem hardware related, not software :) lol Nov 09 04:18:35 KNY: the email list? Nov 09 04:18:53 mocsrox, yeah Nov 09 04:18:55 cbeust_: there's a programmatic way to get the IMEI via the sdk? Nov 09 04:19:04 KNY: thx Nov 09 04:19:05 as long as I can mod RC30 and keep reinstalling modded versions I'm happy for now :) Nov 09 04:19:47 mocsrox, http://groups.google.com/group/android-beginners/browse_thread/thread/43b6ced2dc3251bc/798582bda8d6ca50?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=ANDROID_ID#798582bda8d6ca50 Nov 09 04:19:59 mocsrox: I don't know but I doubt it for privacy reasons Nov 09 04:20:56 of course I don't see how they can guarantee ANDROID_ID is unique, but it's most likely unique enough Nov 09 04:21:01 seeing as it's 64-bit hex Nov 09 04:22:41 KNY: sweet thx! Nov 09 04:23:38 what set suid files are in rc30 Nov 09 04:23:47 eh processes Nov 09 04:23:52 what processes are setuid Nov 09 04:24:37 root Nov 09 04:25:53 am I going to brick my phone if i change a few of the pictures in the RC and re-install it? Nov 09 04:26:10 ionstorm, how can i check 4 ya? Nov 09 04:26:18 busybox find / -type f \( -perm -04000 -o -perm -02000 \) \-exec ls -lg {} \; Nov 09 04:26:54 but busybox wont work on thatg Nov 09 04:26:59 gotta find another way Nov 09 04:27:14 DarkriftX - how to root on rc30? Nov 09 04:27:33 http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keeping_Root Nov 09 04:27:54 keeping root, yes, but gaining root? Nov 09 04:27:57 basically we need to exploit a setuid process Nov 09 04:29:29 JesusFreke himself is now locked out on his own phone, so if we can find a solution for him to gain root that would be good Nov 09 04:30:48 we can reinstall RC's can't something be changed to establish root again? Nov 09 04:31:04 no Nov 09 04:31:09 oh Nov 09 04:31:10 well... not if you have lost it Nov 09 04:31:32 because they are signed and sealed, basically - you can't change any of the files without breaking the signatures Nov 09 04:32:10 and the signatures file itself is then digested and the digest is signed and stored at the end of the CERT.RSA file - so the whole thing is pretty bulletproof Nov 09 04:32:42 bummer :/ Nov 09 04:33:05 To be honest, I think we need to start an organized way to request T-mobile to let people request developer versions of the firmware - Nov 09 04:33:08 by locked out what do we mean? Nov 09 04:33:11 cannot even boot? Nov 09 04:33:16 No, cannot gain root Nov 09 04:33:20 oh Nov 09 04:33:28 not as badd, but yeah.... sucks Nov 09 04:33:38 maybe that will motivate him lol Nov 09 04:33:59 I'm sure it will - but the next exploit will take much longer to find Nov 09 04:34:14 as for RC101, impossible as well? Nov 09 04:34:25 huh? What RC101 are you talking about? Nov 09 04:34:41 cooked RC possibilities Nov 09 04:35:01 If your recovery image is only looking for files signed by HTC, you can't exactly cook anything Nov 09 04:35:07 unless you have their private key Nov 09 04:35:15 and if you have their private key, please send it to me! :P Nov 09 04:35:17 oh, are they hiring? Nov 09 04:35:31 :) Nov 09 04:36:13 http://www.google.com/support/jobs/bin/answer.py?answer=81725 Nov 09 04:39:45 ahaberlacho: maybe I should apply... Nov 09 04:39:57 gdsx - what is your current position? Nov 09 04:40:16 Damm - did your phone bricking ever get fixed? Nov 09 04:40:16 RyeBrye: SET for Android :o) Nov 09 04:40:27 gdsx - same thing? Nov 09 04:41:12 RyeBrye, yep Nov 09 04:41:13 RyeBrye: not quite; Mobile includes software for other platforms as well Nov 09 04:41:23 RyeBrye, flashed RC29, then grabbed the full RC30 patch Nov 09 04:41:27 all is good, no root... but I don't mind Nov 09 04:41:48 if it was my personal phone I would have cooked the rom and fucked with it Nov 09 04:41:55 but, it's not, it's a company phone. Nov 09 04:41:56 It should very embarassing for google that your phoen was bricked - seeing as it failed on a file you never touched Nov 09 04:42:07 srsly Nov 09 04:42:16 well T-Mobile has stopped sending RC30 out Nov 09 04:42:32 only a short amount of people got RC30, the rest are the idiots like me who downloaded it. Nov 09 04:42:53 Really? Everyone here was getting peppered with it Nov 09 04:42:55 so obviously the 4meg patch had something wrong. Nov 09 04:43:02 I wonder if my phone is still trying to get it Nov 09 04:43:04 it shouldn't be going out. Nov 09 04:43:16 unless they are OTA'ing the full Nov 09 04:43:27 well T-Mobile has stopped sending RC30 out Nov 09 04:43:29 ? Nov 09 04:43:41 spikebike, according to someone inside tmo yes Nov 09 04:43:47 because? Nov 09 04:43:48 Was it on a forum? Nov 09 04:43:50 they got assaulted with people with their phones bricked Nov 09 04:44:01 /win 19 Nov 09 04:44:01 RyeBrye, no my woman works for t-mobile Nov 09 04:44:01 dur Nov 09 04:44:01 Those people on the official t-mobile forums seriously have their heads up their butts Nov 09 04:44:14 Mine is still trying to download the 4 meg version Nov 09 04:44:16 oh I don't trust those idiots Nov 09 04:44:18 so they didn't stop sending it out Nov 09 04:44:34 maybe they stopped letting new android ID's download it but they didn't stop it going out Nov 09 04:44:38 TSG's story is they stopped sending it out. Nov 09 04:44:47 rc30 is briking phones? Nov 09 04:44:50 oyeoj, yes Nov 09 04:44:52 bricking* Nov 09 04:44:56 the 4meg patch bricked my phone Nov 09 04:45:01 RC30 is a pimple on the ass of software Nov 09 04:45:06 http://pastie.org/private/6c93yqvxx5qcplcthmslqq ... Nov 09 04:45:08 i got it Nov 09 04:45:16 that's what I got when I got the 4meg version Nov 09 04:45:30 huh Nov 09 04:45:38 i got it OTA Nov 09 04:46:02 o.O Nov 09 04:46:11 my RC30 is still hanging in there, a bit slower but, working. Nov 09 04:47:16 T-Mobile got assaulted with people who tried the 4meg update either OTA or downloaded Nov 09 04:47:19 and it bricked their phones Nov 09 04:47:26 so they had to replace 200 phones on the first day Nov 09 04:47:29 * Damm shrugs Nov 09 04:47:30 ouch Nov 09 04:47:45 my phone wasn't modified what so ever (except for busybox) Nov 09 04:47:51 so it shouldn't have had a problem updating Nov 09 04:48:11 yeah mine was unmodded Nov 09 04:48:21 That's hilarious Nov 09 04:48:29 What RC was on the ones they replaced? Nov 09 04:48:40 RyeBrye, RC29 Nov 09 04:48:43 mine was unmodded and was rc25 or whatever htey updated 19 with Nov 09 04:48:48 now rc30 and ticking along Nov 09 04:48:50 they 4meg was RC29 only Nov 09 04:48:58 g1er, correct Nov 09 04:49:08 i didn't know there was a 29 Nov 09 04:49:11 g1er, I ended up doing the RC19-RC28-RC29 patch Nov 09 04:49:34 ya, I went through it last night, 19 -> 29 -> 30 Nov 09 04:49:50 no problems thus far Nov 09 04:49:52 i thought it was 25. i'm bad with numbers :] Nov 09 04:50:00 ???? my phone randomly just rebooted itself Nov 09 04:50:24 28 was just for a minute. until the first exploit was found a few days into it.. then 29 Nov 09 04:50:38 What was the exploit on 28? Nov 09 04:51:04 I don't think it was a 28 specific but rather an android specific Nov 09 04:51:29 browser exploit if i recall Nov 09 04:51:52 speaking of browser - is there a way to do a "find on page" in the browser on Android? Nov 09 04:52:00 searching within a page? Nov 09 04:52:06 not yet :/ Nov 09 04:52:28 mini chrome Nov 09 04:52:33 seems dumb to leave that out Nov 09 04:52:53 not mini-chrome.. ? webkit ? Nov 09 04:52:56 but we have copy and paste Nov 09 04:53:28 well it is chrome is it not? Nov 09 04:53:29 Well - can you select text that's not in a text input field on a web page? Nov 09 04:53:37 no, it's not chrome - it's webkit Nov 09 04:53:42 which chrome is based on Nov 09 04:53:42 yes Nov 09 04:54:18 and it recognizes numbers and addresses Nov 09 04:54:24 How do you select it? Nov 09 04:54:43 so lookup papamurphys and find your location Nov 09 04:55:09 scroll over the # and hit the green call key Nov 09 04:55:37 or press and hold the track ball and select copy Nov 09 04:56:08 then go to contacts and paste the # Nov 09 04:57:33 but what about selecting like a paragraph of text or something? Nov 09 04:57:55 dunno not tried that Nov 09 04:57:59 scroll down yes? Nov 09 04:58:53 I can copy URLs, but I can't see how to copy random text Nov 09 04:59:27 I don't think that's possible either :/ Nov 09 04:59:28 RyeBrye, alt + trackball selects, IIRC Nov 09 04:59:52 so if you move that otacert.zip I gues syou can't download off the market any more huh Nov 09 04:59:52 sorry about that, was typing on the G1 in connectbot for irc Nov 09 05:00:06 waldo - no Nov 09 05:00:11 wait I may take that back Nov 09 05:00:12 waldo_, that's not a huge deal you can install manually Nov 09 05:00:15 if you move the cacerts - you can't Nov 09 05:00:26 I take it back it totally worked Nov 09 05:00:26 waldo_, did you do the hostfile trick? Nov 09 05:00:31 what's the hostfile trick? Nov 09 05:00:31 if you moved the cacerts after I specifically said not to, I will pimp slap you Nov 09 05:00:37 :P Nov 09 05:00:58 And RyeBrye is pretty hardcore pimpish! Nov 09 05:01:05 waldo_, someone was trying to sell adding clients.android.google.com to the hostfile would stop the OTA. Nov 09 05:01:13 RyeBrye: keep in mind that the G1 will pimp-slap you back Nov 09 05:01:17 :) Nov 09 05:01:22 damm ah, that's an interesting idea Nov 09 05:01:35 waldo - just move the OTAcerts - that will take care of it Nov 09 05:01:42 the host file thing DOES block the market, iirc Nov 09 05:01:50 RyeBrye: that's waht I did Nov 09 05:01:51 haha Nov 09 05:01:52 http://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=680 Nov 09 05:01:55 that's awesome Nov 09 05:02:03 i didn't realize that everything we typed was going out as root Nov 09 05:02:08 damm yup Nov 09 05:02:09 waldo_, breaks the market. Nov 09 05:02:23 nah the market works fine I realize now Nov 09 05:02:25 and to me that's unacceptable Nov 09 05:02:30 w/otacert being renamed Nov 09 05:02:32 waldo_, if you do the hostfile trick, it breaks it. Nov 09 05:03:14 yeah, moving otacerts doesn't hurt it Nov 09 05:03:21 it just hurts the OTA updates Nov 09 05:03:36 so uh, with RC30 can you still do reboot from the keyboard Nov 09 05:03:38 hohum Nov 09 05:03:39 * Damm tries Nov 09 05:04:28 nah, but that's funny as heck Nov 09 05:04:29 what is this udp port 9000 that listening on 0.0.0.0? Nov 09 05:04:48 on the android * Nov 09 05:05:54 damm? Nov 09 05:07:37 Damm - RC30 blocks the reboot from the keyboard Nov 09 05:08:42 RyeBrye, right. Nov 09 05:08:54 so if you type on the keyboard ping 207.229.71.7 Nov 09 05:08:59 you can keep an open ping running as root Nov 09 05:09:13 which will keep your data connection open until you r-e-b-o-o-t Nov 09 05:09:13 lol Nov 09 05:09:38 that's even more nefarious then I thought to begin with Nov 09 05:11:53 Damm: what do you mean? Nov 09 05:11:57 wait rc30 doesnt disable the whole phantom shell? just blocks reboot??!? Nov 09 05:12:16 that cant be right Nov 09 05:12:18 no oyeoj Nov 09 05:12:37 i think he is saying it removes permissions from everythign except for ping which still has root permissions Nov 09 05:13:03 that's normal Nov 09 05:13:53 * Damm sighs Nov 09 05:14:08 DarkriftX, ... don't speak for me ever again. Nov 09 05:14:24 Damm, grow up Nov 09 05:14:40 i think damm is brutesource Nov 09 05:14:47 both do nothing but troll Nov 09 05:15:39 Troll, Troll, Troll your chan Nov 09 05:15:43 can u reflash update.zip once upgraded to rc30 Nov 09 05:15:45 Gently down the tubes Nov 09 05:15:48 with a modd'd fw Nov 09 05:15:55 Merrily, merrily merrily, merrily Nov 09 05:15:58 Uh, whatever. Nov 09 05:16:21 ionstorm, yes Nov 09 05:16:23 well no Nov 09 05:16:27 you have to go to rc29 first Nov 09 05:16:28 and then yes Nov 09 05:16:39 u can downgrade? Nov 09 05:16:44 ? Nov 09 05:16:45 you can go to 29 from 30? Nov 09 05:16:48 it's not upgrading the boot loader, there will be a point when they upgrade the boot loader, or do something that won't let you downgrade. Nov 09 05:17:02 Fnord^AFK, if you grab the RC19-RC28 yes Nov 09 05:17:06 they do update the bootloader Nov 09 05:17:14 they update boot.img Nov 09 05:17:16 not the same thing Nov 09 05:17:25 And recovery.img Nov 09 05:17:38 so u can downgrade from rc30 to rc 19 Nov 09 05:17:39 ? Nov 09 05:17:45 someone give me a rc29 bootloader info Nov 09 05:17:47 ionstorm, should be able to yes Nov 09 05:17:57 cant downgrade to rc29 tho? Nov 09 05:18:14 to rc19? if you have a full rc19 image Nov 09 05:18:28 drea100 pvt 32b... hboot 0.95.0000 cpld-4 radio-1.22.12.29 Nov 09 05:18:32 rc19-rc28 zip file is rc29 Nov 09 05:18:36 i assume that's the same Nov 09 05:19:21 if someone who has rc29 will shut off their phone, power it on holding the camera button Nov 09 05:19:24 we can confirm or deny Nov 09 05:19:43 and no your emulator does not count DarkriftX. Nov 09 05:19:48 i have screenshots of rc29 Nov 09 05:19:56 but im not confirming shit for your ass Nov 09 05:20:07 ok, not screenshots, camera pics taken of the rc29 bootloader Nov 09 05:20:56 DarkriftX, good because I wouldn't believe it if you tried. Nov 09 05:21:23 i wouldnt blame you, trolls never believe anything they are told Nov 09 05:21:39 they are always right and everyone else is always wrong Nov 09 05:21:55 anyway rc29 update wouldn't have rc30 in it's initial version check Nov 09 05:22:25 Fnord^, why would a full version do a version check anywho? Nov 09 05:22:42 because the script tells it to Nov 09 05:22:46 my emulator told me that one :) Nov 09 05:22:47 No clue. rc30fuil does Nov 09 05:23:14 rc29 does also Nov 09 05:23:21 first few lines of the update script Nov 09 05:23:38 # cat udp sl local_address rem_address st tx_queue rx_queue tr tm->when retrnsmt uid timeout inode 40: 00000000:2328 00000000:0000 07 00000000:00000000 00:00000000 00000000 1010 0 658 2 c593bba0 Nov 09 05:23:42 # Nov 09 05:23:45 anyone know how to look up that inode? Nov 09 05:24:50 find / -ls |grep inode? Nov 09 05:25:28 never seen a hexadecimal inode Nov 09 05:25:29 Fnord^, you got find on your G1? Nov 09 05:25:38 Fnord^, it's YAFFS2... so I wouldn't be shocked Nov 09 05:25:56 damn, got busybox which has it Nov 09 05:25:59 lol Nov 09 05:27:48 Fnord^, busybox rocks. Nov 09 05:28:16 hey can someone explain adb to me Nov 09 05:28:36 i did jesusfreke's new update and the telnetd command didn't stick around Nov 09 05:29:00 so i'm either learning about adb or turning back to rc29 Nov 09 05:30:34 Damm: sorry it took me a bit, rc29 booting is: drea100 pvt 32b hboot-0.95.0000 cpld-4 radio-1.22.12.29, sep 2 2008 Nov 09 05:30:51 ismarc, so it's xactly the same then. Nov 09 05:31:00 yup Nov 09 05:31:03 so clearly you can turn back to rc29 if you wanted. Nov 09 05:31:40 verifying... Nov 09 05:31:42 i wonder how boring mtty would be with that screen Nov 09 05:32:31 jriley60 - just get the official terminal app Nov 09 05:32:32 k.. we got a failure Nov 09 05:32:40 g1er, ? Nov 09 05:32:42 g1er - what re you trying? Nov 09 05:32:47 can't go back to rc29? Nov 09 05:32:51 lol ya Nov 09 05:32:58 what happened? Nov 09 05:33:07 you can never go backk..... you can NEVER GO BACKKK>>>> Nov 09 05:33:26 E:Failure at line 1: (you want all the tech stuff as well)? Nov 09 05:33:32 RyeBrye, sure you can... otherwise when I bricked my phone with RC30... i shouldn't have been able to reinstall RC30 Nov 09 05:33:35 from the market ryebrye? that's what i tried Nov 09 05:33:37 g1er, sure, pastie.org it Nov 09 05:33:39 pterminal? Nov 09 05:33:47 nah Nov 09 05:33:55 ok give me a minute Nov 09 05:34:21 welll.. ues Nov 09 05:34:48 jriley - pterminal sucks Nov 09 05:34:57 jriley - use the real one, the one hello android put up there Nov 09 05:35:13 jriley - if you have JesusFrekes mods on there, you will see # instead of $ when you do it - or you can at least do su Nov 09 05:35:56 swetland: is there any chance of getting a tailcall instruction in Dalvik? Nov 09 05:36:12 huh well damn it's not working Nov 09 05:36:16 i thought we already covered the reasons why you cannot downgrade (without editing the script to not check current versions) Nov 09 05:36:21 I think it's been proposed for Java 7 but I don't know if they care enough to do it or not Nov 09 05:36:26 i see $ and i followed the link from his latest post Nov 09 05:36:28 jriley60 - are you using pterminal or are you usng the real one? Nov 09 05:36:40 what's the real one Nov 09 05:36:44 adamant: I know Dan (the vm lead) is open to adding more features Nov 09 05:36:45 look in the market Nov 09 05:36:50 pterminal is a piece of crap Nov 09 05:37:02 ah got a name for the other one Nov 09 05:37:07 swetland: the VM's open source, right? Nov 09 05:37:11 yup Nov 09 05:37:11 Terminal Emulator, I think Nov 09 05:37:14 terminal might work jriley60 Nov 09 05:37:16 cool. Nov 09 05:37:26 swetland: thank you Nov 09 05:37:27 http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/dalvik.git Nov 09 05:38:34 terminal emulator is giving the same thing Nov 09 05:38:40 swetland: that will make it much easier to get "higher-level languages" into Dalvik and have them compile to something decent Nov 09 05:38:41 ahh sucky Nov 09 05:39:36 http://pastebin.com/d560bd776 Nov 09 05:41:31 phone's working fine after failed install, fyi. Nov 09 05:43:30 irc from G1... Nov 09 05:44:59 adamant: I know dan is definitely interested in seeing other languages target the dalvik vm, so I suspect he'd be supportive of such efforts Nov 09 05:45:15 g1er, interesting... Nov 09 05:45:24 g1er, makes me wonder if they changed the keys Nov 09 05:45:41 DarkriftX - it seems every full update checks for "test_keys" - so if there was ever a version released that had "test_keys" again by accident like there was last time - someone could install that and then go back in time to any update Nov 09 05:46:18 G1er- what version were you on and which were you going back to? Nov 09 05:46:30 rc30 going to rc29 Nov 09 05:46:36 Yeah, that's why it failed Nov 09 05:46:36 rc30 patch* Nov 09 05:46:37 you failed that check Nov 09 05:46:38 they did change keys Nov 09 05:46:47 THey changed the ota keys? Nov 09 05:46:52 yup Nov 09 05:46:58 RyeBrye, good to know, i will be getting a copy of that test update soon Nov 09 05:46:58 How do you know? Nov 09 05:47:00 it was in the patchlist. otacerts.zip Nov 09 05:47:10 Interesting Nov 09 05:47:13 g1er, yes the keys are different Nov 09 05:47:21 releasekey.x509.pem is different in rc29 and rc30 Nov 09 05:47:29 so then I guess you can't go back. Nov 09 05:47:45 Maybe that was the reason Nov 09 05:48:00 unless you can find a way to replace /etc/security/otacerts.zip Nov 09 05:48:23 I don't care at all about what they do with their keys... since my phone will never use them Nov 09 05:48:35 but it is funny they would change the key like that Nov 09 05:48:37 fyi you can.. reinstall rc30 patch and full rc30 over rc30 patch Nov 09 05:48:54 don't know if thats helpful tho Nov 09 05:48:59 the full versions are nice because you can always reinstall them over themselves Nov 09 05:49:02 you can always install the same version over itself Nov 09 05:49:07 not really helpful Nov 09 05:49:15 that's why I was a little miffed and a little nervous seeing on the 4mb patch go out Nov 09 05:49:16 you were able to install the rc19-rc29 update over itself Nov 09 05:49:30 although i dont officially know that, being an emulator user myself Nov 09 05:49:30 well, it's good to know they haven't removed the feature Nov 09 05:49:42 that's kinda interesting how they change the release key Nov 09 05:50:19 yeh Nov 09 05:50:28 change you key on each release, sign the new update with the key you updated on the last release Nov 09 05:50:38 ensures that if your key is ever comprimised... your not doomed Nov 09 05:51:06 Maybe they did cryptanalysis on it and determined it was a weaker key - so weak, in fact, taht it would only take 10^120 years instead of the normal 10^138 years to crack with our current technology Nov 09 05:51:40 did they hire a bunch of people from sony or what? Nov 09 05:51:42 Yeah, interesting practice. I can't see any good reason NOT to do it - and it is easy enough to do Nov 09 05:51:48 Fnord^, no Danger. Nov 09 05:51:58 but... seriously... using a 2048 bit key should be enough for the next couple of billion years Nov 09 05:51:58 cuz this is reminding me of psp drama Nov 09 05:52:19 (ok, maybe the next 50) Nov 09 05:52:28 anyone got a link to a tutorial to get me headed in the right direction using adb Nov 09 05:52:29 he Nov 09 05:52:31 h Nov 09 05:52:37 for what jriley60? Nov 09 05:52:42 I guess the generally accepted date for a 2048 bit key is 2030 Nov 09 05:52:49 to learn Nov 09 05:52:49 jriley60, do you have the sdk installed? Nov 09 05:52:53 yeah Nov 09 05:52:53 if my phone still works in 2030, I will be impressed Nov 09 05:53:08 2010 and I'll be impressed Nov 09 05:53:19 yea, the G1 doesnt feel that solid to me. Nov 09 05:53:30 i'd wager it gives out soon after the 2 year contract is over, if not before then. Nov 09 05:54:23 DarkriftX - are you getting an RC30 test_keys release? Nov 09 05:54:34 no, the rc29 one Nov 09 05:54:37 ok Nov 09 05:54:43 the one that dissapeared Nov 09 05:54:51 ? Nov 09 05:54:52 but the key did change between the releases though? :( Nov 09 05:55:12 I wonder what the RC29 test key update script looks like Nov 09 05:55:15 no idea, i havent seen the file myself Nov 09 05:55:18 but yeah, if oyu can get that, I'd be interested Nov 09 05:56:12 ... note to anyone who ever posts on t-mobile's abomination of a forum: Nov 09 05:56:21 don't EVER say "subscribe" on a thread Nov 09 05:56:41 why's that? Nov 09 05:57:02 * Damm hasn't bothered with the t-mobile forums Nov 09 05:57:10 RyeBrye, as soon as i get it it will be hosted on the wiki Nov 09 05:57:26 oh, nm, I did find the unsubscribe button - they just buryit Nov 09 05:57:31 2048-bit RSA keys to 112-bit symmetric keys Nov 09 05:58:08 how many ops to check a key these days? 100? Nov 09 05:58:33 * g1er was active in the t-mo forums for about the first week of the g1 Nov 09 05:58:50 good for basic user GUI questions Nov 09 05:58:53 i was active there till i got my phone Nov 09 05:58:55 lol Nov 09 05:59:08 bitching about it not coming fast enough with everyone else Nov 09 05:59:13 yeah Nov 09 05:59:14 lol Nov 09 05:59:32 The admins on there are technically incompetant Nov 09 05:59:37 haven't been back since i have it Nov 09 05:59:45 RyeBrye, reminds me of most of T-Mobile Employee's then. Nov 09 06:00:00 i did get a 81 page thread shut down though i got so bored Nov 09 06:00:01 Yeah. I would have thought they could hire at least one or two smart people and have them run a forum Nov 09 06:00:02 i'm shocked that T-Mobile can get as much done as they do. Nov 09 06:00:22 if you are going to run a forum on a SmartPhone - maybe hire a SmartPerson? Nov 09 06:00:36 lol Nov 09 06:00:43 no Nov 09 06:00:44 too much drama in T-Mobile Nov 09 06:00:44 requires someone who can create drama Nov 09 06:00:56 if you're a smart person, why would you be buggered to run a forum when you could get a better job? Nov 09 06:01:25 excellent point Nov 09 06:01:31 radix - the salary would have to be competitive Nov 09 06:01:51 but, of course, the salary would also have to compensate for the career-killing factor of working running the forum at T-mobile :) Nov 09 06:02:12 RyeBrye, calling a tmo tech competent would be like calling a rock soft Nov 09 06:02:42 I think one smart person at $80k would be a lot better than 2 dumb people at $40k or 3 dum people at $30k or so Nov 09 06:02:54 yeah Nov 09 06:03:14 but the think is the people who work for tmo aren't smart enough to recognize someone worth $80k Nov 09 06:03:17 RyeBrye, more then likely they hired some nubs in Canada who recently moved from India. Nov 09 06:03:20 explain that to the execs at tmo, they arent all that competent either. Nov 09 06:03:26 and if they did they would stick around for 6 months before moving to somewhere better Nov 09 06:03:30 and are being held hostage by T-Mobile's outsourced center in Canada. Nov 09 06:03:32 hmm can't get my sd card to mount either Nov 09 06:04:02 I forget the name of the "PDA" Support Center for T-Mobile, but they traffic their 'good reps' from India to Canada. Nov 09 06:04:13 interesting Nov 09 06:04:25 no it's really disgusting Nov 09 06:04:44 jriley60, is this a factory sd card that shipped with the g1? Nov 09 06:05:28 yea Nov 09 06:05:40 it will mount on my windows box Nov 09 06:06:09 didnt you install updates using that card before? Nov 09 06:06:38 yes i'm not sure what's going on right now. i shoulda stuck with rc29 i was happy lol Nov 09 06:06:45 odd Nov 09 06:06:51 is your card sandisk by chance? Nov 09 06:06:54 (guessing no) Nov 09 06:07:06 yes it is Nov 09 06:07:08 hrmmmm Nov 09 06:07:23 jriley60 rc30.. you probably know but in the notification bar you have to select to mount it Nov 09 06:07:32 yea Nov 09 06:07:46 it won't mount from the card reader either i don't think it's a phone thing Nov 09 06:07:48 do you mean wont mount during normal boot, or during recovery console Nov 09 06:07:55 ok Nov 09 06:08:04 prob needs to be repartitioned Nov 09 06:08:11 yea Nov 09 06:08:20 i'm going to reboot Nov 09 06:08:24 first ive heard of a problem with the factory sandisk cards though, normally its the other brand they shipped Nov 09 06:08:29 and then repartition Nov 09 06:08:46 i really think it might be my machine Nov 09 06:11:53 yup stupid box Nov 09 06:13:11 nice Nov 09 06:14:13 is it possible to flash from jesusfrekes modded rc30 back to the old modded rc29? Nov 09 06:14:30 actually, im sure it is if you edit the modded rc29 script Nov 09 06:14:31 jriley - yeah Nov 09 06:14:39 just mod the install script on rc29 Nov 09 06:14:40 ah good Nov 09 06:14:43 either remvoe the version checking line or edit it Nov 09 06:14:46 that's kind of the point of the modded thing Nov 09 06:15:00 thank little baby jebus Nov 09 06:15:08 I think your time is better spent figuring out ADB than reverting to what you already know Nov 09 06:15:17 yea where do i start Nov 09 06:15:25 i need to learn anyway Nov 09 06:16:08 interesting Nov 09 06:16:17 looking over jesusfreke's modded recovery and boot images Nov 09 06:16:22 makes his modded rc30 interesting Nov 09 06:16:25 ya me as well Nov 09 06:16:34 he modded rc30? Nov 09 06:16:36 I kinda wish he'd post simple straight forward directions Nov 09 06:16:37 ya Nov 09 06:16:40 That guy is committed Nov 09 06:16:49 instead of saying go check this other thread Nov 09 06:16:56 Fnord^, yes. Nov 09 06:17:00 then come back and er implement something from 3 other threads Nov 09 06:17:01 He BOUGHT another G1 because he accidently upgraded his to RC30 as a mistake Nov 09 06:17:07 he bought a new phone that had rc29, and blah Nov 09 06:17:08 yeah Nov 09 06:17:26 rye dunno seems like a g1 is worth the cost new one bay Nov 09 06:17:30 hah Nov 09 06:17:50 I can't parse that :P Nov 09 06:17:57 so much for my spotlight XD Nov 09 06:18:39 http://forums.t-mobile.com/tmbl/board/message?board.id=87&thread.id=18501 If anyone wants to jump on the bandwagon... Nov 09 06:18:56 the only real point of going the way of jesusfreke Nov 09 06:18:58 it wont accomplish anything, but I'm going to start trying to make some noise towards T-mobile Nov 09 06:19:07 will be when the android tree can be built easily Nov 09 06:19:20 you can keep up with the changes to make your G1 stable, and yet still rooted Nov 09 06:19:38 Damm - it can be - but the problem is that the open source build lacks some things like YouTube or other apps Nov 09 06:19:58 Damm - but yeah, a full open source build would be what I would prefer to run with Nov 09 06:20:19 Just repo sync and rebuild whenever a new noteworthy feature comes out - and never have to do an OTA update again Nov 09 06:20:43 I would alrady be banging on the latest tree - but they don't have their latest "next" kind of tree public yet Nov 09 06:20:54 RyeBrye, you can grab those .apk's from a regular phone and install them in your image Nov 09 06:21:11 not a huge deal Nov 09 06:21:18 Damm - yeah, but I think some apks need to be signed wtht he same key that the platform is signed with Nov 09 06:21:26 I suppose I could resign them with my platform key Nov 09 06:21:34 resign them with your test key Nov 09 06:21:42 yeah, that would work Nov 09 06:22:21 all the signing is... is java's jarsign Nov 09 06:22:26 so it's not a huge deal Nov 09 06:22:28 yep Nov 09 06:22:44 although I like the signapk tool they have a bit better for using Nov 09 06:23:21 keytool is like a maze that only the most well-trained rats can navigate in my experience Nov 09 06:23:28 * RyeBrye might just be a dumb rat Nov 09 06:23:29 isn't it the same basic thing? Nov 09 06:23:35 ah Nov 09 06:23:45 yeah, but the args are simpler Nov 09 06:23:53 i remember how much fun it was converting a .pem key+cert into keytool Nov 09 06:24:01 yes Nov 09 06:24:05 exactly Nov 09 06:24:08 had to convert them to pkcs12 Nov 09 06:24:20 zomg it took me like 4 hours to find decent instructions Nov 09 06:24:27 I did a support gig once and I had to do something similar for someone Nov 09 06:24:32 and I never got the CA in... so it wasn't trusted well Nov 09 06:24:52 so our tomcat webapp never served the CA Nov 09 06:24:53 They were on Windows... I had them use the windows key thing to import their key and then export it since the keytool was so borked Nov 09 06:25:16 which means if the CA wasn't installed, it was untrusted Nov 09 06:25:20 which is fail Nov 09 06:25:34 ooops :) Nov 09 06:25:51 how do i start adb this is crazy heh Nov 09 06:25:58 jriley60, tools/adb? Nov 09 06:26:12 yea i guess Nov 09 06:26:13 * RyeBrye loves screenshot2 in the tools the most Nov 09 06:26:39 What's the max framerate you can get out of that thing doing screenshot2 I wonder ? Nov 09 06:26:43 3 fps? Nov 09 06:31:16 RyeBrye, i dunno if changing the build.fingerprint is a good idea Nov 09 06:31:27 the phone..phones home Nov 09 06:33:25 Fnord^, correct Nov 09 06:33:35 most phones phone home kinda Nov 09 06:34:05 spewing out a modded version string might cause 'problems' with your account or your brakelines Nov 09 06:34:24 what scares me the most is how no one minds giving google their gooey details anymore Nov 09 06:34:58 yeah Nov 09 06:35:00 hmm Nov 09 06:35:04 speaking of Nov 09 06:35:06 What scares me is that people give all their information to the Internet providers and don't care about it Nov 09 06:35:16 has anyone figured out how to change the account yet? Nov 09 06:35:29 Fnord^, factory reset. Nov 09 06:35:31 bash: adb: command not found Nov 09 06:35:31 Fnord^: factory reset Nov 09 06:35:38 -besides- that Nov 09 06:35:41 jriley60, tools/adb Nov 09 06:35:49 christ I cant believe google has pwn'd us with rc30 Nov 09 06:35:50 jriley60: put it in your path Nov 09 06:35:50 wtf Nov 09 06:36:19 they could have at least left our root axs allone Nov 09 06:36:30 ionstorm, there was a bigger problem then root. Nov 09 06:36:37 ionstorm: i still don't see what's great about the root access Nov 09 06:36:44 technically you could do rm -rf /* on the keyboard Nov 09 06:36:49 and it would wipe the phone Nov 09 06:36:52 lol Nov 09 06:37:05 course /system is mounted ro Nov 09 06:37:09 but that's not the point Nov 09 06:37:33 they could have left our chmod'd files Nov 09 06:38:00 ya Nov 09 06:38:09 thats evil Nov 09 06:38:15 evil evil evil Nov 09 06:38:16 could the fact that i'm on 64 bit cause complications with adb?> Nov 09 06:38:28 jriley60: you need to put it in your path Nov 09 06:38:43 hmm Nov 09 06:38:45 i tired Nov 09 06:38:49 tried Nov 09 06:38:55 jriley60: or go to the directory that has android in it go to tools and run ./adb Nov 09 06:39:01 what directory is left allone during the rc30 update? Nov 09 06:39:07 Damm: I'm pretty sure that the rm on the phone doesn't do -r Nov 09 06:39:16 can we hide a file somewhere? Nov 09 06:39:18 jham_: i think it does Nov 09 06:39:26 hmmmmm Nov 09 06:39:31 jham_, test it for us? Nov 09 06:39:32 lol Nov 09 06:39:32 ah thank you michael Nov 09 06:39:43 :) that means it didn't get added to your path Nov 09 06:39:44 jham_, i think it does Nov 09 06:39:57 ionstorm, /data, /cache, but both are mounted nosuid Nov 09 06:40:02 you'll have to run it from the directory with ./adb unless you do Nov 09 06:40:05 actually DarkriftX can test it for us... load up a RC29 emulator Nov 09 06:40:07 and rm -rf /* Nov 09 06:40:26 How about trying on a different directory? :) Nov 09 06:40:27 where are apps downloaded Nov 09 06:40:28 ? Nov 09 06:40:35 and installed Nov 09 06:40:48 or just create one and put stuff in it and try it :) Nov 09 06:40:50 ionstorm, /data/app Nov 09 06:40:51 can the emulator install updates? Nov 09 06:41:01 Fnord^, can't imagine why not? Nov 09 06:41:03 look at that, rm does do -r Nov 09 06:41:08 though no -f Nov 09 06:41:12 not quite the same os Nov 09 06:41:24 no Fnord^ he thinks that someone who does not own a g1 cannot know anything about android and trolls about it all day long Nov 09 06:41:32 jham_, without -f it's not as devastating. Nov 09 06:41:57 why not hide su in /data/app ? Nov 09 06:41:59 will ou please shutup already about everyone trolling DarkriftX. Nov 09 06:42:01 Damm - unless they don't have a -f because it doesn't have a -i ? Nov 09 06:42:03 errr i was just wondering if it could install updates. good way to test mods Nov 09 06:42:04 dont listen to jham_ Nov 09 06:42:08 not everyone, just you Nov 09 06:42:10 he's a troll Nov 09 06:42:13 weird Nov 09 06:42:26 rm only has recursive Nov 09 06:42:28 rc29 g1 now thinks that my home access point is a t-mobile access point Nov 09 06:42:29 no other options Nov 09 06:42:31 RyeBrye, true you don't need -f. Nov 09 06:42:37 no need for forcng Nov 09 06:42:40 Listen to geist, he totally knows what he's talking about Nov 09 06:42:46 damn straight. Nov 09 06:42:58 hey wait, you just tried to reverse-troll me! Nov 09 06:43:01 * DarkriftX ignores jham_ for excessive trolling Nov 09 06:43:01 force of habbit to rm -rf Nov 09 06:43:08 me too Nov 09 06:43:22 spikebike - that's funnny... maybe they hacked your AP to get back at you for hacking on their phone Nov 09 06:43:29 heh Nov 09 06:43:29 geist: I'm tricky like that Nov 09 06:43:38 brb Nov 09 06:43:46 * DarkriftX ignores self for lack of having a g1 Nov 09 06:43:50 pwned Nov 09 06:43:52 iostorm only system allows suid Nov 09 06:44:02 infobot: who is your mother Nov 09 06:44:03 Mrs. Apt is well, thank you. Nov 09 06:44:12 i love that bot Nov 09 06:44:24 the most unexpected things work on it Nov 09 06:44:25 infobot: What do you think of DarkriftX Nov 09 06:44:35 infobot, have we met beore? Nov 09 06:46:28 that's annoying Nov 09 06:47:00 hey hey now i'm getting somewhere Nov 09 06:47:13 good to hear jriley60 Nov 09 06:47:17 where is somewhere Nov 09 06:47:27 eh i got adb running Nov 09 06:47:28 lol Nov 09 06:47:46 now to make modded boot image Nov 09 06:47:54 only showing emulator as device Nov 09 06:47:56 hah Nov 09 06:48:10 no modded boot images for me Nov 09 06:48:16 i read about that happening, dont remember what to do to fix it though Nov 09 06:48:35 jriley60: you are trying to adb your G1? Nov 09 06:48:41 yes Nov 09 06:48:51 http://code.google.com/android/intro/develop-and-debug.html#developingondevicehardware Nov 09 06:49:02 gracias Nov 09 06:49:08 that's instructions for setting it up Nov 09 06:50:52 is the mod'd recovery and full rc30 mod safe? Nov 09 06:51:00 thank you Nov 09 06:51:03 whose? Nov 09 06:51:03 nothing is safe Nov 09 06:51:04 cd .. Nov 09 06:51:07 oops Nov 09 06:51:10 but a couple ppl have gotten it working ionstorm Nov 09 06:51:29 i'm using it Nov 09 06:51:29 fnord would be the one to ask i believe Nov 09 06:51:55 now that i finally figured out how to use adb i have root Nov 09 06:52:33 once that is installed how do u install future updates? Nov 09 06:52:52 mod them and resign, then rename to update.zip and force it Nov 09 06:52:52 modded recovery is safe, and i know my rc30 is. i'd trust JF's rc30, though his might make future updates more troublesome Nov 09 06:52:54 ionstorm: there's a disclaimer... you have to code them yourself :) Nov 09 06:53:16 not code, just change some lines in the script Nov 09 06:53:26 update-script ic Nov 09 06:53:29 anyone here randomly happen to still be specifically on rc28? (not rc29?) Nov 09 06:53:31 not full coding* Nov 09 06:53:41 DarkriftX: i'm being an ass, i still think root access is pretty stupid :) Nov 09 06:53:50 for config.gz? Nov 09 06:53:59 Fnord - how would his make future updates harder? Nov 09 06:54:01 michaelnovakjr, i understand your point, for most users it is Nov 09 06:54:06 fnord: yeah; it /must/ be the same, but I am anal Nov 09 06:54:10 RyeBrye, he customizes version strings Nov 09 06:54:11 but some ppl like to tweak stuff Nov 09 06:54:12 i'm still on RC19 Nov 09 06:54:17 RyeBrye, have u updated to the mod'd rc30 / Nov 09 06:54:18 ? Nov 09 06:54:22 saurik, ive never seen anyone on rc28 Nov 09 06:54:25 I'm going to update to his now Nov 09 06:54:28 (rc19 and rc29 are the same, except for the comment that indicates when the kernel was built) Nov 09 06:54:52 Fnord - it's good that he mods his version strings, as it prevents you from screwing your phone over by accident by re-signing the update without first removing stuff form it Nov 09 06:55:21 RyeBrye, true, but also exposes you to detection :P Nov 09 06:55:39 who cares, you block their ota Nov 09 06:55:41 rye moving to JF's? He mentioned putting a new release without the permissio problem Nov 09 06:55:49 They can detect me all I want - I never signed anything I wouldn't Nov 09 06:55:59 spikebike - oh? I'll wait then Nov 09 06:56:27 err I mean I never signed anything saying I wouldn't play with my own phone Nov 09 06:56:39 what are they going to do? Shoot me? Nov 09 06:56:54 dunno Nov 09 06:57:33 rye: you probably at least signed something saying you wouldn't do it /and/ keep your warranty (not that I'm at all saying you should care or that they would ever track you down and prove "we aren't accepting this warranty fix because our server logs noticed a weird version string a couple months ago") Nov 09 06:57:43 for JF's RC30... do I just stick the zip containing system/ boot.img and radio.img, etc in as upgrade.zip on the sd Nov 09 06:57:44 ? Nov 09 06:58:33 anyways Nov 09 06:58:35 saurik - If I ever bricked my phone by doing a bad reflash, that would apply - but they couldn't say that my screen wasn't under warranty because I changed my software Nov 09 06:58:45 saurik, what was the url of your page? Nov 09 06:58:46 Today, 07:09 AM Nov 09 06:58:57 Huh. Interesting. I can't either. It doesn't look like I got the permissions set on it correctly. You'll have to connect via adb, and change the permissions Nov 09 06:59:05 I'll get that fixed and post a new update. Nov 09 06:59:06 Thanks for pointing it out Nov 09 06:59:08 rye: they probably did if yo uread the fine print, but again I am not saying they would ever care, just that I think "I never signed anything saying I wouldn't..." is kind of strong ;P Nov 09 06:59:09 (thats UTC) Nov 09 06:59:14 fnord: http://www.saurik.com/id/10 Nov 09 06:59:18 saurik - yeah, point take Nov 09 06:59:18 n Nov 09 06:59:19 permissions on what? Nov 09 06:59:46 D:\Android>adb shell Nov 09 06:59:46 # cd /system/bin Nov 09 06:59:46 cd /system/bin Nov 09 06:59:46 # chmod 4755 su Nov 09 06:59:48 chmod 4755 su Nov 09 06:59:48 on that Nov 09 06:59:57 .tup Nov 09 07:00:00 yup Nov 09 07:00:09 i just figured that out as well Nov 09 07:00:22 not a huge deal to fix 'by hand' in any case Nov 09 07:00:42 what about making a second busybox that has full root perms lol Nov 09 07:00:54 actually, i guess sh covers that also Nov 09 07:00:57 and smaller Nov 09 07:01:13 so the only "issue" in his build now is that the sh isn't suid? Nov 09 07:01:14 hola plusminus_ Nov 09 07:01:35 RyeBrye: seems that way from the thread Nov 09 07:01:41 goddammit Nov 09 07:01:54 maybe dynamically linking busybox wasn't a good idea Nov 09 07:02:06 *fume* Nov 09 07:02:46 So.. to install the modified RC30... is that just an upgrade.zip ? Nov 09 07:02:58 after you have edited it, yes Nov 09 07:03:18 DarkriftX: what's the edit? Nov 09 07:03:37 edit scripts, change the recovery to the modded recovery, repack, resign, rename, force (i think this is the right order, someone please correct me if im wrong) Nov 09 07:03:55 someone will write an sh to do that for us one day :) Nov 09 07:04:06 SplasPood, as some will point out, i do not have a g1 so im going off massive reading, but no experience Nov 09 07:04:09 do not take my word for it Nov 09 07:04:19 We'll take Rye's word for it then ;) Nov 09 07:04:22 http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keeping_Root Nov 09 07:04:29 RyeBrye: I thought that all is what JF released.. Nov 09 07:04:34 bleh someone should make a update.zip so ppl dont fuck up the editing lol Nov 09 07:04:45 ionstorm, i agree, ill put it on the wiki :) Nov 09 07:04:52 he released the built version - not the "build your own version" tools Nov 09 07:04:54 soon we'll see ppl come in here and trash their defice Nov 09 07:04:56 device Nov 09 07:05:01 DarkriftX, good idea Nov 09 07:05:20 the wiki r0x btw Nov 09 07:05:23 RyeBrye: thats what I thought... so its just a drop in and re-flash with the bootloader ya? Presuming you are using the modified rc29 already? Nov 09 07:05:43 Yes, it is Nov 09 07:05:54 you can even drop it in FROm the bootloader if you are using the flashed one Nov 09 07:06:00 yea Nov 09 07:06:01 since he has adb enabled on the recovery in his modified one Nov 09 07:06:04 adb Nov 09 07:06:54 ionstorm, thanks, good to hear. I am lucky that RyeBrye is doing most of the work, i just go edit formatting and change links around Nov 09 07:07:22 it hasn't been much work yet Nov 09 07:07:46 yea keeping all this info in one place rather than 1000s of threads is important, thanks guys :) Nov 09 07:07:47 its still got a lot already Nov 09 07:08:03 just one page that needs major editing and that is the modified recovery page Nov 09 07:08:22 i stay away from editing pages on processes i dont know very well Nov 09 07:08:32 ok, I'll go take a peek at it Nov 09 07:09:07 even with the "your own risk" warning, i wouldnt want to be the cause of a brick or 200 because i typed soemthing in the wrong order Nov 09 07:09:40 yea Nov 09 07:09:43 that would suck Nov 09 07:10:20 add a shortcut key part Nov 09 07:10:33 btw, wiki is publicly editable Nov 09 07:10:39 ah Nov 09 07:10:48 wrd Nov 09 07:10:52 if you have something useful and a few minutes, please by all means add it Nov 09 07:10:52 HOLY FUCK toolbox is annoying Nov 09 07:10:58 yes, toolbox sucks Nov 09 07:11:04 jeeze, easy with the f bomb Nov 09 07:11:21 if you dont want to sign up to add something, pm me the details ill see what i can do Nov 09 07:11:56 actually i blame the keyboard being too small Nov 09 07:12:12 but yeah no 'test' Nov 09 07:12:58 which caused my su script to fail Nov 09 07:13:08 leaving me in this horrible environment =[ Nov 09 07:17:01 has anyone created an irc app yet Nov 09 07:17:15 ionstorm: connectbot + screen and irssi, done ;) Nov 09 07:17:22 yea ;) Nov 09 07:17:49 ionstorm: i'm working on one Nov 09 07:18:31 word Nov 09 07:20:56 did anyone outside US with a US G1 get prompt for update ? Nov 09 07:22:08 nice, runnin RC30 and I still have root... :) Nov 09 07:24:13 What arch is the G1? Nov 09 07:25:28 arm Nov 09 07:25:47 And what mach? :P Nov 09 07:26:05 arm7 isn't it? Nov 09 07:27:06 thought i read something about a mach based kernel here in the channel? could be wrong tho Nov 09 07:27:24 *or something* Nov 09 07:27:45 g1er: nope Nov 09 07:27:49 k Nov 09 07:27:51 no mach based kernel Nov 09 07:35:04 RyeBrye: it's either arm7/arm9 or arm9/arm11 for radio/(general processing) Nov 09 07:35:07 I forget which Nov 09 07:35:18 oh, I think maybe arm9/arm11 Nov 09 07:35:30 that sounds more correct Nov 09 07:35:35 i did hear the radio was arm11 Nov 09 07:35:38 so yeah, id agree Nov 09 07:35:44 the radio's not arm11, no Nov 09 07:35:47 erm, vice versa Nov 09 07:35:53 oh Nov 09 07:36:08 ok, so arm9/arm11; that seems right to me also Nov 09 07:36:29 i was reading tour x/x comment when i typed and got it backwards Nov 09 07:36:32 your* Nov 09 07:36:33 damn Nov 09 07:37:30 hrm Nov 09 07:37:35 np :o) Nov 09 07:37:51 * fnord joins the carping on tmobile forums :P Nov 09 07:38:02 running modded RC30... adb shell gives me root... I chmod'd 4755 /system/bin/sh ... but that from a terminal instance on the phone does not give me uid 0 for some reason.. Nov 09 07:38:23 heh Nov 09 07:38:26 can you su in that though? Nov 09 07:38:30 is /system mounted ro? Nov 09 07:38:37 by default, yes Nov 09 07:38:39 fnord: newp, remounted to do the chmod ;) Nov 09 07:38:52 not nosuid? Nov 09 07:38:56 nope: Nov 09 07:39:00 /dev/block/mtdblock3 /system yaffs2 rw 0 0 Nov 09 07:39:07 it's actually 4755? Nov 09 07:39:17 # ls -l /system/bin/sh Nov 09 07:39:17 -rwsr-xr-x root root 86936 2008-08-01 08:00 sh Nov 09 07:39:29 w00t mibbit works Nov 09 07:39:34 irc on my g1 Nov 09 07:39:35 wtf Nov 09 07:39:35 w00t Nov 09 07:39:38 mibbit.com Nov 09 07:39:51 fnord: no clue.. I mean I have root via adb so its not fubar, but.. Nov 09 07:40:21 yeah this is one of my fears...that the next patch will disable setuid in the kernel Nov 09 07:40:22 chmod telnetd Nov 09 07:40:29 setuid 0 at least Nov 09 07:41:09 fnord: how could we check? Nov 09 07:41:20 sec Nov 09 07:42:19 arm9/arm11 http://www.qctconnect.com/products/msm_7201.html Nov 09 07:43:38 perl extract.pl r30/boot.img 17412 | gunzip -c | strings | grep suid Nov 09 07:43:46 also in the libc, that would be bad too Nov 09 07:44:11 strings rc30/system/lib/libc.so |grep setuid Nov 09 07:44:33 that won't catch a function rewrite tho Nov 09 07:44:58 well it's in libc at least Nov 09 07:45:27 what's extract.pl from? Nov 09 07:45:30 yeh. rc30 works for me Nov 09 07:45:59 something i wrote Nov 09 07:46:37 open F,"$ARGV[0]" or die; Nov 09 07:46:38 binmode F; Nov 09 07:46:38 seek F,$ARGV[1],0; Nov 09 07:46:38 read F,$spew,1533952;; Nov 09 07:46:38 print $spew; Nov 09 07:46:40 pretty simple Nov 09 07:48:12 ahh Nov 09 07:48:27 So I wonder why it works for you and not me Nov 09 07:49:23 I dunno, I rolled my own rc30 Nov 09 07:49:44 JF is gonna release one without the permission issue I think Nov 09 07:50:05 odd tho... it should just be a matter of adding the suid bit.. Nov 09 07:51:30 yeah Nov 09 07:51:34 he just did Nov 09 07:51:42 oh? Nov 09 07:51:50 so you 'sh' and uid != 0? does sh actually run? Nov 09 07:51:52 http://rapidshare.com/files/162035634/update-RC30-fullupdate-modified-testkeys-v1.1.zip Nov 09 07:52:00 dunno, still downloading Nov 09 07:52:03 holy! ---> http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=399762 Nov 09 07:52:08 ahh I see Nov 09 07:52:33 fnord: yup it does, because I need to back out of it with exit and my original shell remains Nov 09 07:52:40 HTCFlasher -formerly known as HERMflasher- is an open source tool which allows you to flash ROMs on most current HTC devices. It has some extra features that the original HTC RUU doesn't have, like for example it can present a serial prompt to the bootloader (replacing mtty), or it can dump NBH file contents (.nb ROM parts). Nov 09 07:52:41 RyeBrye, whats that Nov 09 07:53:09 with -that- having g1 support lockouts would be a thing of the past Nov 09 07:53:20 yes Nov 09 07:53:27 hrm Nov 09 07:53:31 even a suid telnetd does not work Nov 09 07:54:00 hmmm...if i want to mess with my g1 in the future should i avoid the update my phone just told me about? Nov 09 07:54:09 fcrick: RC30? Nov 09 07:54:30 it'll do it when you're idling so ... Nov 09 07:54:34 SplasPood: i have RC29 atm Nov 09 07:55:23 wasn't there some rooting with some bug in telnetd permissions...? Nov 09 07:55:35 will RC30 close up that hole? Nov 09 07:55:37 well not that specifically, but there was a root bug yes Nov 09 07:55:39 and yes.. Nov 09 07:55:46 there is a modified RC30 that JF put out Nov 09 07:55:50 thats what I'm mucking with now Nov 09 07:56:08 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=443713 Nov 09 07:56:08 fcrick - if you want to keep root, right now go move your otacerts.zip file to a new location Nov 09 07:56:16 many ppl brick their phone messing with it? Nov 09 07:56:21 none that I'm aware of Nov 09 07:56:29 but you should do what rye said Nov 09 07:56:32 ironically, more people have bricked their phones with Google's official R30 update than with this Nov 09 07:56:36 before you wind up stuck on stock RC30 Nov 09 07:56:36 if by bricking you mean losing root, yeah, some lol Nov 09 07:56:45 Stock R30 = major buzz kill Nov 09 07:56:58 RyeBrye: ok so that means i need to actually get root on the phone then right? Nov 09 07:57:03 fcrick - yes Nov 09 07:57:04 yup Nov 09 07:57:07 very easy too Nov 09 07:57:09 fcrick - btu thtat is easy Nov 09 07:57:19 how do i 'telnet to the device'? Nov 09 07:57:19 You don't even need pTerminal like I originally thought ;) Nov 09 07:57:30 that was the one part i read i wasn't sure about - like just hit up its IP, right? Nov 09 07:57:37 yup Nov 09 07:57:41 if telnetd has been run Nov 09 07:57:46 it'll just drop you to a root shell Nov 09 07:57:53 I want to port android to a new device, and tried to follow the guide in development/pdk/docs, but that doesn't use the same directory structure as repo... It seems like I need access to google's git servers... Nov 09 07:58:14 and just renaming the certs file will prevent further updates? Nov 09 07:58:25 fcrick: yes, although I believe it will still download them Nov 09 07:59:07 this is so exciting i feel like such a script kiddie Nov 09 07:59:14 w00t Nov 09 07:59:19 ;] Nov 09 07:59:27 fcrick: heh think of how I felt the first time! :) Nov 09 08:00:03 i've messed with online games but this linux and devices stuff is very daunting Nov 09 08:00:18 though i guess its a lot easier with the source code lol Nov 09 08:00:40 google a11 yur b4s3z 4r3 b310/\/g t0 us Nov 09 08:00:56 where is otacerts.zip Nov 09 08:01:35 /etc/security Nov 09 08:01:41 saurik, hey, are you there? Nov 09 08:01:41 mv /system/etc/security/otacerts.zip /system/etc/security/otacerts.zip.bak Nov 09 08:01:51 that will do it? Nov 09 08:01:55 yes Nov 09 08:01:57 yup Nov 09 08:02:03 k Nov 09 08:02:19 first rm the /cache/*.zip file Nov 09 08:02:31 so it doesnt force update Nov 09 08:02:37 and kill the update proc Nov 09 08:02:50 fnord: ? Nov 09 08:02:50 or does anyone have the android kernel source tree built Nov 09 08:02:59 1.8 gig shit Nov 09 08:03:00 lol Nov 09 08:03:06 it says mv source... destination Nov 09 08:03:17 saurik, yeah, see above XD is there a tarball that's relatively painless to get? Nov 09 08:03:18 fnord: need rc30 .kos? give me the kernel.release stamp Nov 09 08:03:31 how do i get my g1's IP address - i'm not on the local wireless Nov 09 08:03:42 I just got the android source code Nov 09 08:03:45 had the kernel in it Nov 09 08:03:49 saurik, if DEVMEM can be a module, yes. and tun would be good too Nov 09 08:04:05 netstat shows the ip Nov 09 08:04:10 or busybox ifconfig Nov 09 08:04:12 just give me the kernel.release stamp and I can build stuff Nov 09 08:04:20 RyeBrye: I should be able to just update.zip flash 1.1 over the same way as I did 1.0, yea? Nov 09 08:04:22 2.6.25-01843-gfea26b0 #6 PREEMPT Mon Oct 6 14:13:36 PDT 2008 armv6l Nov 09 08:04:28 XD Nov 09 08:04:31 * saurik will also put a new ext2.ko and unionfs.ko up for debian Nov 09 08:05:09 SpasPood - yeah Nov 09 08:05:22 fnord - is that a custom kernel? Nov 09 08:05:33 RyeBrye, nah, rc30 kernel Nov 09 08:05:35 ok Nov 09 08:05:47 I was wondering why it was Oct 6 :) Nov 09 08:06:05 bleh i can't seem to connect Nov 09 08:06:05 its tellling me i cant mv it Nov 09 08:06:11 eh it seems they didn't update the kernel Nov 09 08:06:14 hmm Nov 09 08:06:36 saurik, the modules and such that you're building come from the android git repo? Nov 09 08:06:55 should the LISTEN line in netstat show the IP its listening on? right now i see 0.0.0.0 Nov 09 08:07:07 like 0.0.0.0:23 Nov 09 08:07:10 whats the screenshot adb command Nov 09 08:07:18 0.0.0.0 = everything Nov 09 08:07:26 so it's listening on all interfaces, basically Nov 09 08:07:42 ahh ok...well, it doesn't seem to be getting the connect i'm sending it Nov 09 08:08:12 ionstorm - on mine it's 'screenshot2' Nov 09 08:08:14 ahh Nov 09 08:08:40 fnord: yeah (and for the record it doesn't seem like linux comes with devmem buildable as a module) Nov 09 08:09:00 saurik, doh! Nov 09 08:09:00 RyeBrye, which dir in the sdk? Nov 09 08:09:04 didnt find that bin Nov 09 08:09:24 wait, I'm confused Nov 09 08:09:30 yeah? Nov 09 08:09:30 2.6.25-01843-gfea26b0 is rc29 Nov 09 08:09:33 it's all ears :) Nov 09 08:09:38 I already built tun.ko for you on that one Nov 09 08:09:43 it's also rc30 Nov 09 08:10:11 http://cache.saurik.com/android/2.6.25-01843-gfea26b0/drivers/net/tun.ko Nov 09 08:10:18 hmm. g1 can safely boot into a homebrew kernel built from that tree? Nov 09 08:10:38 I doubt it Nov 09 08:10:43 =[ Nov 09 08:10:51 That's a problem then Nov 09 08:10:57 busybox ifconfig doesn't have any output - am i doing something wrong? (trying to get IP) Nov 09 08:10:58 I would actually guess "no chance in hell" Nov 09 08:11:11 well, its a problem if you want to do that Nov 09 08:11:15 but you don't: you wanted modules Nov 09 08:11:16 fcrick, just use netstat Nov 09 08:11:18 saurik - why not? it has to be signed? Nov 09 08:11:22 # netstat Nov 09 08:11:28 ionstorm: the IP i see there isn't picking up? Nov 09 08:11:29 rye: no, it is missing the MSM kernel drivers Nov 09 08:11:39 are u on wifi? Nov 09 08:11:41 ionstorm: i think maybe t-mobile is blocking telnet connections Nov 09 08:11:59 no... Nov 09 08:12:01 use wifi Nov 09 08:12:10 well, there is wifi but i don't have the key Nov 09 08:12:10 use wifi or ssh tunnel yeah Nov 09 08:12:12 or Nov 09 08:12:12 how can i change it from read only? Nov 09 08:12:19 got a shell acct? Nov 09 08:12:19 grab the telnet app and telnet to localhost Nov 09 08:12:22 its like an annoying hex key and i typed it in on this machine and i don't have it Nov 09 08:12:26 yeah Nov 09 08:12:43 is there a way in windows to see the key you used on a wireless connection set up you have? Nov 09 08:12:47 fcrick - no way to click "show password" ? Nov 09 08:12:57 there probably is Nov 09 08:13:19 telnet to localhost Nov 09 08:13:28 sweet. the 1.1 update by JF works Nov 09 08:13:31 Any guides for porting android to another device? Nov 09 08:13:49 dvyjones- ask infobot, he might know Nov 09 08:14:50 dvyjones: (1) get a bootloader running, (2) get the kernel running, (3) get dalvik running, (4) ???, (5) profit! Nov 09 08:15:03 bleh i guess i have to wait until tomorrow till i get my wireless key Nov 09 08:15:26 maybe i can set windows to have a bridge and make itself a WAP Nov 09 08:15:29 fcrick - keep the phone in airplane mode until then Nov 09 08:15:45 because you DO NOT want an RC30 update coming down on your phone Nov 09 08:16:07 RyeBrye: ok thanks i'll do that Nov 09 08:16:07 RyeBrye: just about done flashing over here Nov 09 08:16:36 SpasPood - I just confirmed I was able to get root in both the "Terminal Emulator" program and by adb shell Nov 09 08:16:39 has google made any public comment in regards to the root access? Nov 09 08:16:45 Yes, they said "Ooops" Nov 09 08:16:50 oh yea? Nov 09 08:16:51 url? Nov 09 08:16:55 ughh... update available prompt. ouch.. build info shows ~4mb img downloaded successfully. (i said 'no') Nov 09 08:17:06 a couple of articles I've seen they say they addressed it Nov 09 08:17:11 I don't have the URLs Nov 09 08:17:24 rubik - why haven't you moved the otacerts yet? Nov 09 08:17:36 been lazy.. ): Nov 09 08:17:51 where do they put the update file when they downoad it? I thought I might just check and delete it if i see it Nov 09 08:17:51 rubik, get a custom rc30 :P Nov 09 08:17:52 ok if i do that now and rm the update file? Nov 09 08:18:02 in /cache Nov 09 08:18:10 rubik - rm the file in /cache first, then move the otacerts.zip second Nov 09 08:18:13 (while i figure out the custom test-signed stuff from the xda forum) Nov 09 08:18:17 if the file is sitting there it's already confirmed it Nov 09 08:18:27 so delete it, pronto Nov 09 08:18:31 ahh good /cache is empty Nov 09 08:18:45 checking /cache in a sec Nov 09 08:19:13 haha.. wow.. second "A system update is available" prompt in 5 mins Nov 09 08:19:28 it will keep nagging you Nov 09 08:19:36 and if you miss one, it will just install it for you I believe Nov 09 08:19:47 dang i guess i got lucky then Nov 09 08:20:15 RyeBrye: Hrm... So I ran terminal.. prompt is $ id is uid 10053 ... run su ... prompt is # .. id is still uid 10053 Nov 09 08:20:26 No shit - type in "su" now Nov 09 08:20:29 :) Nov 09 08:20:33 oh wait Nov 09 08:20:34 you did Nov 09 08:20:40 yep Nov 09 08:20:45 if u can run ps u got root Nov 09 08:21:04 I can run it... although there is no output Nov 09 08:21:07 ionstorm: sure about that? Nov 09 08:21:10 # ls -l /cache Nov 09 08:21:11 -rw-r--r-- app_7 app_7 4209550 2008-11-08 22:26 signed-RC30-from-RC29-fat.1582cace.zip Nov 09 08:21:15 yep.. deleting that Nov 09 08:21:20 ionstorm: other than the headers, that is Nov 09 08:21:39 SpasPood - one you su in the terminal app you can't see ps info? Nov 09 08:21:40 try this Nov 09 08:21:41 mount -o remount,rw -t yaffs2 /dev/block/mtdblock3 /system Nov 09 08:21:42 dont fight it. accept the patch unto thee Nov 09 08:21:46 if u can do that your root Nov 09 08:21:47 :) Nov 09 08:21:56 take it into your heart, and it will show you the way Nov 09 08:22:30 where is the cert file? Nov 09 08:22:31 * RyeBrye wondered why the "available update" had a picture of a cup of kool-aid next to it Nov 09 08:22:41 lol Nov 09 08:22:53 fcrick: http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Preventing_OTA_Updates&action=edit Nov 09 08:22:59 RyeBrye, see /msg Nov 09 08:23:00 :P Nov 09 08:23:40 RyeBrye, by any chance when you are logged in to the wiki do you see your nick or mine? Nov 09 08:23:42 ionstorm: well that I can do, its still a bit odd Nov 09 08:23:54 my analytics always shows I am making edits when you are in there Nov 09 08:24:33 that wiki entry assumes you've remounted rw, right? Nov 09 08:24:36 DarkriftX - my nick, why? Nov 09 08:24:47 ionstorm: i think you can rus ps just fine without root Nov 09 08:24:51 rubik - good point, should add that to it Nov 09 08:24:54 (remounted rw /system, that is.. cause otherwise, can't rename otacerts.zip, right) Nov 09 08:25:03 cool Nov 09 08:25:03 oh hmm... Nov 09 08:25:33 ok, rubik - it's updated now Nov 09 08:25:41 adb shell drops me to a proper (per id) root shell at least Nov 09 08:25:41 http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Preventing_OTA_Updates#Short-term_fix:_Prevent_the_OTA_from_validating Nov 09 08:26:33 it's kind of funny... every time there is an update we'll have to have our own QA dept test all this stuff out now :) Nov 09 08:26:43 lolz Nov 09 08:27:11 does the remounting kill telnetd? cause i just got kicked off Nov 09 08:27:39 rubik - be sure to turn on the developer feature to keep the thing on while plugged in Nov 09 08:28:01 gonna have to hire a volunteer staff RyeBrye lol Nov 09 08:28:03 i've got to set up adb immediately (been slacking) Nov 09 08:29:48 whew.. ok.. update deleted from /cache and otacerts.zip renamed for now while i figure out best way to proceed (while still at RC29) Nov 09 08:30:19 ok, there you go :) Nov 09 08:30:31 Yeah, the JF RC30 modified update is good Nov 09 08:30:47 but you have to reflash your recovery.img first Nov 09 08:31:08 yeah, been reading those 2 threads, thanks Nov 09 08:31:45 just to make sure.. we can always go back to rel-keys and the "good" recovery.img if needed, right? Nov 09 08:31:56 (back from test-keys that is) Nov 09 08:33:23 yes Nov 09 08:33:30 but that is a one-way street Nov 09 08:34:28 understood.. meaning if we ever "accidentally" take a release (or unknowingly if not prompted) while using the rel-keys, we're stuck without root Nov 09 08:34:47 right Nov 09 08:35:11 but you should always move your otacerts.zip - which should prevent that from happening Nov 09 08:36:45 yep, sounds good.. thanks again for all the help.. i'll look at patching the boot & recovery images in the morning since i should be "safe" for now Nov 09 08:37:54 oh, one more thing.. i see in his (JF) modified RC30 build, he's setting a new fingerprint.. any way for google/t-mobile to parse that and brick phones with 'xda-dev' in there? Nov 09 08:40:20 I don't see any reason why Nov 09 08:40:39 plus, anything they try to push down to your phone wont validate with the signature Nov 09 08:40:53 since you move otacerts.zip Nov 09 08:41:34 right.. but is that the only absolute way for them to change something on your phone? Nov 09 08:41:48 I'm much happier having xda-dev in there because it PREVENTS you from accidently de-rooting your phone - you have to re-install a custom build that doesn't have that version string in it Nov 09 08:42:21 If T-mobile acts like that, I'll be happy to take my business elsewhere Nov 09 08:42:53 indeed... and i'm just being too paranoid but trying to keep in mind the whole "kill switch" thing Nov 09 08:42:54 win :) http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/wireless_key.html Nov 09 08:42:58 plus... we'll probably disable the OTA checking anyway Nov 09 08:43:19 Yeah, but who even knows what the hell they mean by the kill switch - from what I understand it's just a way of them to uninstall market app stuff Nov 09 08:43:43 RyeBrye, they have access to the test key too Nov 09 08:43:50 fnord - correct Nov 09 08:44:04 but the otacerts.zip isn't there - so the phone's OTA updater wont be able to validate anything they send down Nov 09 08:44:14 you always move the otacerts.zip regardless Nov 09 08:44:34 so even if they did send you down something signed with the test key - big deal - it will still fail the check Nov 09 08:44:37 true Nov 09 08:45:04 who knows how this mysterious kill switch works - but I think they are aware that is the nuclear bomb of their platform Nov 09 08:45:09 does anything/any process (during reboot?) check for otacerts.zip and replace it if it doesn't exist? Nov 09 08:45:13 (stupid question, sorry) Nov 09 08:45:17 no Nov 09 08:45:20 ok, cool Nov 09 08:45:25 but thanks for giving Google the idea Nov 09 08:45:31 (although we'd just disable that) Nov 09 08:45:43 :) Nov 09 08:45:49 haha.. sorry Nov 09 08:46:28 stupid vista with telnet not installed by default... Nov 09 08:46:53 one of the first things i do after i reinstall xp/vista is download putty.exe.. hah Nov 09 08:47:10 oh yeah putty... Nov 09 08:47:11 duh Nov 09 08:47:15 one of the first things I do after I install / reinstall XP or Vista is cry Nov 09 08:47:22 one of the first things i do after reinstalling windows is formatting and installing linux Nov 09 08:47:23 and then close whatever VM I'm running it in Nov 09 08:47:31 touche Nov 09 08:47:41 RyeBrye: i just remove it after i install it :) Nov 09 08:47:42 yay root achieved Nov 09 08:47:54 see, this is why we need root Nov 09 08:47:54 fcrick, today you became a man Nov 09 08:48:00 well.. correct answer (for vista) as far as first thing done is disabling UAC Nov 09 08:48:00 look how happy everyone gets when they get root Nov 09 08:48:08 i bought a new laptop and didn't even do the initial windows boot, went right to the linux live cd Nov 09 08:48:25 you are one of the learned michaelnovakjr Nov 09 08:48:39 i really dislike windows Nov 09 08:48:42 On my new box, I did install XP to an ESATA laptop drive so I could do stability testing / temp monitoring for OC'ing - since all the good tools are in windows for that Nov 09 08:48:48 mac has been pissing me off lately too Nov 09 08:49:06 yay otacerts.zip moved :) Nov 09 08:49:22 dont do like someone else did earlier and move it to itself.... lol Nov 09 08:49:25 fcrick - now you can turn your phone off of airplane mode Nov 09 08:49:47 and wow, the wiki is coming along nicely Nov 09 08:49:49 RyeBrye: well i had to do that to telnet to it Nov 09 08:49:53 its gettign big and full of useful info Nov 09 08:50:18 RyeBrye: so i actually see in /cache now - the RC30 update is sitting there - am i safe? Nov 09 08:50:29 yeah Nov 09 08:50:31 fcrick - delete it Nov 09 08:50:48 rm /cache/signed* or whatever it is called Nov 09 08:50:59 die! Nov 09 08:51:01 hehe Nov 09 08:51:09 i feel so empowered Nov 09 08:51:11 does it try to re-download it upon cert failing even if it's still there in /cache? Nov 09 08:51:26 yes Nov 09 08:51:36 but it only does it once every couple of hours Nov 09 08:51:38 silly update process Nov 09 08:51:41 yes, very stupid Nov 09 08:51:43 i think i'm gonna reboot my phone just in case Nov 09 08:51:52 still RyeBrye for soemone with limited data plans, that would be bad Nov 09 08:51:56 we need to find a way to stop that Nov 09 08:52:22 yeah, we'll have to poke harder because I don't think the pieces that are in use for the OTA updates are open source Nov 09 08:52:25 mkdir /cache/NAME-OF-UPDATE Nov 09 08:52:26 can we chown/chmod the file? Nov 09 08:52:32 mkfifo /cache/NAME Nov 09 08:52:42 ln -s /dev/null /cache/NAME Nov 09 08:52:44 so that it can't overwrite it? oh.. duh.. it'd still keep downloading it Nov 09 08:52:49 nevermind Nov 09 08:53:23 fill up /cache? Nov 09 08:53:27 ok i guess next step is getting this busybox thing on here Nov 09 08:53:31 remount /cache ro? Nov 09 08:53:39 other things use cache Nov 09 08:53:42 oh Nov 09 08:53:46 yeah? what? Nov 09 08:54:15 fcrick: JF's modified RC30 has /system/bin/busybox included, right? Nov 09 08:54:20 http://modmygphone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4851 Nov 09 08:54:34 cool - move your browser cache to SD :) Nov 09 08:55:02 RyeBrye, that's /data not /cache :P Nov 09 08:55:11 rubik: i dunno i'm gonna give it a few more days before i flash with a hacked image Nov 09 08:55:22 but you can just download it Nov 09 08:55:58 i guess now potentially the problem is t-mobile cutting off hacked phones, right? Nov 09 08:56:40 i guess i shouldn't give them any ideas Nov 09 08:56:40 nah Nov 09 08:56:40 would be a pretty shitty thing to do but, yeah... Nov 09 08:56:47 wm phones get hacked all the time and they never do shit Nov 09 08:57:04 and they dont detect shit Nov 09 08:57:15 i had a phone for a year with free internet and they never noticed Nov 09 08:57:38 fcrick: gotcha re: busybox.. so you plan on just staying at RC29 for a few days until the dust settles? (same here, i think) Nov 09 08:57:59 fnord - yeah, I know - but still the browser cache belongs in /sdcard a lot better than in /data Nov 09 08:58:14 where do my downloads go? Nov 09 08:58:19 .. Nov 09 08:58:24 fcrick - why would t-mobile do this? I see no reason Nov 09 08:58:33 i think i still don't have the G1 internet plan on my account and it's running off my grandfathered $2.99 unlimited t-zones Nov 09 08:58:46 but i'm not going to call them to fix that if it's indeed the case Nov 09 08:58:54 RyeBrye: i dunno they are an evil corp they do mean stuff all the time Nov 09 08:58:54 if they cut me off, I'll just go to AT&T and give them my money and still use my G1 - since I'm not in a 3G area I wouldn't lose anything Nov 09 08:59:26 * RyeBrye makes a note to get his unlock code Nov 09 09:00:36 i bought a new car stereo today hehe Nov 09 09:00:39 oh yeah.. about that.. any kind of sniffing/logging that would give hints as to how the unlocking happens (at the OS level)? Nov 09 09:00:41 to use five Nov 09 09:01:18 drove all around today, sounds great ;) Nov 09 09:01:35 except t-mobile basically doesnt provide 3G anywhere outside of seattle proper Nov 09 09:02:17 night Nov 09 09:02:20 infobot: bedtime Nov 09 09:02:21 methinks bedtime is set to be 9:02:21 ryebrye so get to bed! Nov 09 09:02:58 i'm out too.. good night fancy hacker people. :P Nov 09 09:04:22 hmm when i grabbed busybox i got busybox.asc instead of busybox.xxx - this is fine, right? Nov 09 09:05:04 i guess i'll copy it over manually if this fails Nov 09 09:06:10 yeah nm md5's match Nov 09 09:06:13 *yay* Nov 09 09:06:35 IMAP IDLE is working again with my redesigned patch Nov 09 09:06:35 :) Nov 09 09:07:42 welcome back cmonex Nov 09 09:08:12 imap idle? Nov 09 09:09:36 fnord: push e-mail for IMAP Nov 09 09:10:27 ahhh Nov 09 09:10:58 heh my phone is downloading the update...sucker Nov 09 09:11:19 jasta - about damn time.. err I mean.. congrats dude, awesome.. really.. we're all thankful! :) Nov 09 09:11:32 hmm i think it actually downloads the update over and over and deletes it every time Nov 09 09:11:46 languish: uhm? Nov 09 09:11:52 you know i had it working over a week ago Nov 09 09:12:25 yeah but every time you get it reworking, we get closer to it in an update :) Nov 09 09:12:49 my changes are not going to make it into an OTA update for a long, long time Nov 09 09:12:53 and i dont expect them to Nov 09 09:13:04 thanks all! OTA disabled and root preserved :) Nov 09 09:13:39 jasta, that's one of the more disappointing things about the carrier relationship Nov 09 09:14:00 but yeah, I expect the testing period is necessary Nov 09 09:14:03 its just practical. especially for an open source project that affects plenty of users who know nothing about open source Nov 09 09:14:09 nod Nov 09 09:14:15 and absolutely under no condition want new bugs introduced automatically Nov 09 09:14:33 it'd be nice ot have patch tiers, for customers willing to accept certain updates Nov 09 09:14:42 but regardless, with this recent set of changes, i'm comfortable releasing an APK for users to try ;) Nov 09 09:14:49 :) Nov 09 09:15:17 languish: the only way they could do something like that is to provide you with absolutely no warranty or support, which even power users would be foolish to accept Nov 09 09:15:29 would your apk fucntion as a separate app, or a replacement of the existing one? Nov 09 09:15:32 it's a phone for crying out loud, it can't just go bricking itself at random. Nov 09 09:15:43 languish: a separate app. you cannot replace existing apps Nov 09 09:15:58 ...that are signed by google and stored on /system :) Nov 09 09:16:31 jasta, nod. I would think that the untested tier would go without warranty, unless switched back to the approved tier and reflashed with the approved firmware Nov 09 09:16:38 or image Nov 09 09:16:46 this is both an important security feature (to prevent hijacking data) and a technical limitation (/system is unwritable, so resetting to factory defaults is possible) Nov 09 09:17:01 nod Nov 09 09:17:18 i initially wanted to distribute my changes with K-9 mail Nov 09 09:17:39 issues with the dev? Nov 09 09:17:42 but honestly, i've heard quite a few folks chime in that K-9 mail is not well tested and is approving low quality changes Nov 09 09:17:48 so i don't think i want to actually persoanlly run it ;) Nov 09 09:17:57 heh Nov 09 09:18:13 actually trashing /system isn't an issue Nov 09 09:18:16 perhaps i will just provide a patch and let them decide what to do with it. while distributing my own apk as well Nov 09 09:18:43 the big updates reformat it Nov 09 09:18:43 fnord, it would be for the average end user and the comapnies supporting them Nov 09 09:18:57 they can't have /system getting trashed by random apps Nov 09 09:19:10 I get jastas point :) Nov 09 09:19:37 yeah i was actually just nitpicking about the factory defaults part Nov 09 09:20:14 well, our factory defaults came with root access :P Nov 09 09:20:32 which pleases me greatly Nov 09 09:20:53 but having to look for system takeover attempts with each update will be annoying Nov 09 09:21:18 its a shame so many ppl will miss out on root until another hole is found Nov 09 09:21:21 get cracking on the htc bootloader and we may not have to worry about it so much Nov 09 09:21:32 ^_^ Nov 09 09:21:36 seems like most users will have RC30 Real Soon Now Nov 09 09:21:45 yeah, my wife already accepted it Nov 09 09:21:48 *sigh* Nov 09 09:21:51 the bootloader gets overwritten Nov 09 09:23:17 hmm...can ppl who got RC30 do like an emergency recovery to get back an earlier version? Nov 09 09:23:26 HTCflasher looks promising Nov 09 09:23:35 fcrick, not currently Nov 09 09:23:38 no reversion Nov 09 09:23:54 ahh each version updates the recovery, eh... Nov 09 09:24:18 i guess i don't really know how it works Nov 09 09:24:32 signed rc29 update doiesn't have rc30 version string in it's list of allowed targets Nov 09 09:27:06 ota is: JavaUpdater receiving commands to download blah.zip, then checking blah.zip with keys in otacerts.zip. if it matches, it reboots into recovery.img, which has an /sbin/recovery app, with builtin keys, that checks blah.zip's signature as well. then it checks it's version against the version in blah.zip's update-script, then runs the commands in that script Nov 09 09:27:20 At least I believe so Nov 09 09:27:50 hmm Nov 09 09:28:15 if you have the downloaded update, but don't accept the install, will your method still work, after a reset? Nov 09 09:28:36 might have to do this on my cousins Nov 09 09:28:43 which method are we speaking of? Nov 09 09:28:49 modded rc30? Nov 09 09:28:52 nod Nov 09 09:29:34 getting and maintaning root access on an rc29 with a downloaded but not updated rc30 Nov 09 09:29:36 yeah, if you flash the custom recovery.img and put a cleansed rc30 update on the sdcard... Nov 09 09:29:42 oh Nov 09 09:29:52 just delete the update file from /cache? Nov 09 09:30:14 Sorry for not keeping up, but was the news of that huge RC29 problem really true? Nov 09 09:30:16 yeah wait, sorry misunderstood Nov 09 09:30:27 you need to make sure the rc30 update is at least 40 megs Nov 09 09:30:40 Interpreting keystrokes and automatically executing them? Nov 09 09:30:41 the 4 meg one can potentially break your phone Nov 09 09:30:50 noted Nov 09 09:30:55 BHSPitLappy, just type 'cat' :P Nov 09 09:31:03 but yeah Nov 09 09:31:08 good lord Nov 09 09:31:19 google fixed it, but also attempted to remove people's root access Nov 09 09:31:19 that's got the be the worst thing I've ever heard of, ever. Nov 09 09:31:37 I'm glad for the bug actually :P Nov 09 09:31:52 sure, there's helpful exploitations of it Nov 09 09:32:01 now the bug is gone from my phone and I retain full control Nov 09 09:32:12 but that's mind-blowingly bad Nov 09 09:32:27 which is why they issues a fix Nov 09 09:32:31 *issued Nov 09 09:32:44 not as bad as a magically rootable telnetd actually Nov 09 09:32:59 because market apps and such can't type on the console Nov 09 09:33:16 languish, yeah, but the fact that that went into production that way astounds me. Nov 09 09:33:39 blame t-mobile for pushing to have the device out so early :) Nov 09 09:34:28 brb, gotta find someone with a G1 I can borrow to make a phone call Nov 09 09:34:40 to my good friend "rm -rf /" Nov 09 09:35:00 BHSPitLappy that happened to a few people Nov 09 09:35:07 "Dude, what's wrong with your phone?" *hand back to owner* Nov 09 09:36:32 that is wrong Nov 09 09:36:40 on so many levels Nov 09 09:36:53 so is the bug Nov 09 09:37:56 languish: I think you might be mistaken Nov 09 09:38:27 note that you can't actually send most non-word characters to the shell because of keymap issues, so no "-", and no "/", specifically Nov 09 09:39:26 also, I think my new favorite insect is the incredibly oddly-named "Cockchafer" Nov 09 09:39:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockchafer Nov 09 09:40:00 yeah 'reboot'' seems the most destructive Nov 09 09:40:42 What's the working directory it executes from? Nov 09 09:40:48 time to write a ghetto su. tho i might actually have it use sqlite...hmm.... Nov 09 09:41:02 BHSPitLappy: / Nov 09 09:41:11 eww Nov 09 09:41:12 there's an sqlite3.so i could link to...have it open a database and check a password value... Nov 09 09:41:32 time to get a new favorite insect Nov 09 09:41:33 BHSPitLappy: you can't pass wildcards, though, since they're not [a-z0-9] Nov 09 09:41:44 rreck: :o) Nov 09 09:50:30 languish: I think you might be mistaken Nov 09 09:50:40 that's very possible, I'm only going by claims I've seen on the net Nov 09 09:50:54 for that issue anyway Nov 09 09:50:55 hrm... it'd be nice if I could get RSS feeds off xda-developers forums Nov 09 09:53:38 =[ PS1='\[\033]0;PHONE \w\007\]\[\033[01;32m\]PHONE\[\033[01;34m\] \w \$\[\033[00m\] ' does not play nice with the terminal app Nov 09 09:54:45 (because it isnt a terminal app) Nov 09 09:55:18 SplasPood, and why can't you? Nov 09 09:55:24 Lazy? Nov 09 09:56:58 so i flashed the recovery image Nov 09 09:57:14 now all i have to do is update with JF's modified rc30? Nov 09 09:59:40 yep Nov 09 10:05:28 ok trying it Nov 09 10:05:39 its your fault if i brick my phone Nov 09 10:06:37 no it's not :> Nov 09 10:06:57 aww Nov 09 10:09:13 ok rebooting... Nov 09 10:09:30 rebooting again.. Nov 09 10:09:36 uhoh Nov 09 10:09:39 lol, jk Nov 09 10:09:48 oh whew Nov 09 10:10:06 the android is pulsing Nov 09 10:10:10 thats a good sign Nov 09 10:11:04 yeah it reboots a couple of times, and reboots slowly Nov 09 10:11:27 yay Nov 09 10:11:33 rc30 and i have root Nov 09 10:13:38 [22:58:36] It's so ironic that the more hacked your phone is, the less likely it is to be bricked now isn't it? ->that was always true on WM HTC phones too.. and on other pda's as well. Nov 09 10:15:51 what is this scrolling text thing about? Nov 09 10:15:58 * Neverender doesnt see any.. Nov 09 10:18:03 long shortcut names on home screen Nov 09 10:18:43 * DarkriftX needs sleep now Nov 09 10:18:44 gn all Nov 09 10:19:30 night Nov 09 10:20:45 they dont seem to be scrolling for me Nov 09 10:26:09 Hi. Nov 09 10:26:40 My cousin told me to do this myself. Can I get help here? Nov 09 10:27:04 Help with what? Nov 09 10:27:06 I am trying to follow the directions here: http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Replace_Recovery_Partition Nov 09 10:28:07 I know how to use the telnetd to get root on my phone. I do not completely understand the use of ADB. Nov 09 10:28:53 I have used ADB to connect my phone. I can see the log with it. Nov 09 10:29:03 which part are you stuck on? Nov 09 10:30:08 Do I need to some how gain access to root using ADB, before following these directions? Nov 09 10:30:26 the shell commands can be done via telnet or terminal or adb Nov 09 10:31:59 I would like to follow them as closely as possible. Which I am guessing is through ADB. I am not fully confident I understand every thing in the directions. Which is why I am asking here. Nov 09 10:32:40 I am using a Command Prompt on Windows XP with ADB. Nov 09 10:33:58 which part don't you understand? Nov 09 10:34:11 But yeah the commands need to be done as root Nov 09 10:34:35 How do I achieve root in ADB? Nov 09 10:34:49 I only see how through telnet. Nov 09 10:35:28 create a setuid shell in telnet? Nov 09 10:35:43 cat /system/bin/sh > /system/bin/rootme Nov 09 10:35:51 chmod 4755 /system/bin/rootme Nov 09 10:35:57 then in adb type 'rootme' Nov 09 10:36:12 I will try that now. Nov 09 10:37:17 is it possible to start a reverse shell with netcat (nc) during boot on the Android, I have tried to edit init.rc on my Android-Freerunner but can't seem to get it started... missing telnetd :( Nov 09 10:37:31 (no linux guru) Nov 09 10:38:08 Each time I telnet in, I must use pTerminal to start telnetd first. Is there a workaround to achieve root with out this step, or is that what I am doing now? Nov 09 10:40:30 cat /system/bin/sh > /system/bin/rootme Nov 09 10:40:33 mokolade, what are the commands in init? Nov 09 10:40:45 I get an error: cannot create... read only file system Nov 09 10:41:08 and drudgery, yeah, you won't need telnet afterwards. but pterminal has to go, there's a better terminal Nov 09 10:41:25 I see it in the Market Nov 09 10:41:49 My cousin has it on his phone. It looks like a Commodore 64 screen. Nov 09 10:42:14 yuh Nov 09 10:43:16 I think I understand Nov 09 10:43:23 Do I have to do this first? mount -o remount,rw -t yaffs2 /dev/block/mtdblock3 /system Nov 09 10:43:31 and then the commands you told me? Nov 09 10:43:47 yeah Nov 09 10:44:02 Trying now. Nov 09 10:46:07 Does this mean I also have to make Busybox executable again too? Nov 09 10:46:49 after updating? Nov 09 10:48:07 yay, now idle mode supports setting new flags and deleting messages efficiently Nov 09 10:48:09 After I copied over busybox the first time, I have since rebooted my phone. Nov 09 10:48:10 instead of just scheduling a new sync Nov 09 10:48:13 fnord, one commandline I have tried is: /system/xbin/nc -e /system/bin/sh 192.168.0.1 3333 Nov 09 10:48:56 got it working in debian on the freerunner, so it's working on my desktop computer... Nov 09 10:48:59 Does rebooting the phone remove the symlink I created? Nov 09 10:50:01 nope Nov 09 10:50:13 mokolade, hmm Nov 09 10:50:36 dunno why that would fail :-O Nov 09 10:52:29 okey, I'll guess I just have too try some more.. Nov 09 10:52:41 I have completed these commands: Nov 09 10:52:42 [05:35] cat /system/bin/sh > /system/bin/rootme Nov 09 10:52:42 [05:35] chmod 4755 /system/bin/rootme Nov 09 10:52:42 [05:35] then in adb type 'rootme' Nov 09 10:53:07 When I type rootme, it says rootme is not recognized Nov 09 10:53:26 This is in the Command prompt. Nov 09 10:53:26 wtf Nov 09 10:53:33 adb shell? Nov 09 10:53:47 I think that is where I am confused. Nov 09 10:53:58 Is there a step to enter the adb shell? Nov 09 10:54:10 So far I have just used ADB -commands Nov 09 10:54:32 Such as ADB device, and ADB netcat Nov 09 10:55:01 'adb shell' Nov 09 10:55:15 think of it as telnet Nov 09 10:55:28 Please forgive my ignorance. I really appreciate your help. Nov 09 10:56:09 abd shell has worked, I now have a $ prompt Nov 09 10:56:24 re Nov 09 10:56:28 got disconnectd Nov 09 10:56:36 The commands in the wiki should now work? Nov 09 10:56:57 Or do I have to somehow gain root through the ADB shell? Nov 09 10:57:14 Ahh, you said type rootme. Sorry. Nov 09 10:57:29 The prompt has changes to # Nov 09 10:57:43 s/changes/changed Nov 09 10:59:36 yup now the commands should work Nov 09 11:00:00 is my sdcard now "D:" ? Nov 09 11:00:32 maybe? o.o irrelevant Nov 09 11:00:33 The first step on the wiki was to: 1: download the replacement recovery image and unzip it to your sd card. Nov 09 11:00:57 The instructions look as though the files should be on my local harddisk. Nov 09 11:01:04 you did: adb push recovery_testkeys.img /data/local/recovery.img Nov 09 11:01:04 right? Nov 09 11:01:50 Not yet. I am trying to understand where it will get the recovery_testkeys.img from, in that command. Nov 09 11:02:19 It will automagically see it on the sdcard using the adb push command? Nov 09 11:02:52 no Nov 09 11:02:55 Or must I place the recovery_testkeys.img somewhere else? Nov 09 11:03:04 just put it in your adb directory Nov 09 11:03:14 and do the adb push thing Nov 09 11:03:29 Yes, that is what I was thinking. Thank you. That makes more sense. Nov 09 11:05:20 Not found Nov 09 11:05:45 My ADB directory is E:\android-sdk-windows-1.0_r1\tools Nov 09 11:05:57 I have the recovery_testkeys.img under \tools Nov 09 11:06:14 and you're running it from tools? Nov 09 11:06:18 yes Nov 09 11:07:13 dir recovery_testkeys.img shows it? Nov 09 11:08:12 I see it in the tools folder in Windows Explorer Nov 09 11:10:07 OH! I think I understand what is wrong. I am typing: adb push recovery_testkeys.img /data/local/recovery.img Nov 09 11:10:32 Perhaps I do not need to type "adb" already being in the shell? Nov 09 11:10:38 I will try this. Nov 09 11:11:10 No. It failed. Nov 09 11:14:11 err Nov 09 11:14:15 exit the shell Nov 09 11:14:18 OH! Nov 09 11:14:34 Yes, I just opened a second Command Prompt and performed the command. Nov 09 11:14:43 This seems to have worked. Nov 09 11:15:26 now go back into shell and do the linux commands Nov 09 11:16:40 When I performed the push command, it said: 703 KB/s (0 bytes in 1767424.002s) Nov 09 11:16:49 0 bytes? Is this correct? Nov 09 11:18:20 Can the ls command in the adb shell show me more information than just the file names? I tried la -al which did not display more information. Nov 09 11:18:37 s/la/ls Nov 09 11:19:14 OH. Just -l works. Nov 09 11:20:07 I am glad I checked. The date on the recovery.img is 2008-11-06 20:41 recovery.img Nov 09 11:20:31 toolbox sucks, you need to do ls -l -a instead of ls -la Nov 09 11:20:47 So my overwrite of recovery_testkeys.img to recovery.img did not work? Nov 09 11:24:23 perhaps I will do this on the G1 directly from the sd card Nov 09 11:27:24 ls -l /usr/local/rec* Nov 09 11:27:28 erm Nov 09 11:27:33 ls -l /data/local/rec* Nov 09 11:28:13 yes, the ls -l command worked. It showed the push did not change the filedate Nov 09 11:28:30 I was suspicious that it had not been modified. Nov 09 11:28:55 When I performed the push, it said: 703 KB/s (0 bytes in 1767424.002s) Nov 09 11:29:39 this exactly: ls -l /usr/local/rec* Nov 09 11:30:52 The path was /data/local not /usr/local Nov 09 11:31:17 Or am I looking in the wrong place? Nov 09 11:34:12 erm Nov 09 11:34:13 I must have done something incorrectly along the way. Nov 09 11:34:25 yeah. i'm tired. it should be in /data/local Nov 09 11:34:39 and what's the size? Nov 09 11:35:23 I simply cp'd the recovery_testkeys.img recovery.img on the phone itself. Now the file shows todays date. Nov 09 11:35:53 The filesize is now 1767424 Nov 09 11:36:04 for the rtecovery.img on the phone. Nov 09 11:36:34 That was recovery.img Nov 09 11:38:10 * Drudgery hopes he did not just hose his phone. Nov 09 11:39:40 In this wiki, it says to $ su Nov 09 11:39:57 The reply was Permission denied Nov 09 11:40:06 Does the "rootme" replace "su"? Nov 09 11:44:15 yep Nov 09 11:45:47 I have rebooted in to recover mode. It says: Android system utility Using test keys. E: Can't open cache/recovery/command Nov 09 11:46:28 The wiki says that first line should be the "next to top line" does that mean I am missing something on this screen that should be there? Nov 09 11:46:51 As opposed to "Android system utility Using test keys." being THE top line. Nov 09 11:47:35 Also, is "E: Can't open cache/recovery/command" a problem? Nov 09 11:48:04 it's not a problem Nov 09 11:48:09 it means there's no OTA waiting Nov 09 11:48:20 everything seems to be fine :> Nov 09 11:48:30 OH! Good. I deleted the RC30 OTA that was in cache. Nov 09 11:48:54 good Nov 09 11:49:09 I'll now move on to the next steps! Nov 09 11:50:16 I hope my ignorance some how helps to make the wiki article more clear for people like me. Nov 09 11:52:26 is there a google phone that supports 2100mhz? Nov 09 11:52:31 that totally blows chunks ;) Nov 09 11:52:49 so it looks like.. from what i can tell.. i can only use it in gsm mode.. ie.. no internet in australia Nov 09 11:53:16 i have the option of buying them off ebay from hong kong.. but not sure if its the same frequency bands Nov 09 11:54:43 snadge, my cousin says to look here: http://www.htc.com/www/product/g1/specification.html Nov 09 12:04:59 For what ever reason, I can not push from my local directory to the phone. However, I can cp from the sd card, and it seems to work just as well. Nov 09 12:06:29 I am now running the modified boot image! YAY! Nov 09 12:07:22 yikes, my phone wants to update. will that ruin the ability to get r00t? Nov 09 12:07:37 this pipe-to-execution bug left me fairly speechless Nov 09 12:07:52 fnord, thank you again for your help! I am now going to attempt http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keeping_Root Nov 09 12:08:10 rreck, deny the update. Nov 09 12:08:14 That is what I did Nov 09 12:08:22 Then I deleted the update from the /cache Nov 09 12:08:32 That saved me! Nov 09 12:08:35 Drudgery, someone released a modified update, that might work better Nov 09 12:08:45 A modified update? Nov 09 12:08:58 yeah basically what http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keeping_Root does Nov 09 12:09:18 Do you know where I can find it with directions? Nov 09 12:09:57 heh Nov 09 12:10:13 the "reboot" bug is being reported as if its not the same thing as the "jailbreak" bug Nov 09 12:13:39 Drudgery: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=443713 Nov 09 12:15:00 just download that file, put it in the root dir of your sdcard and rename to update.zip Nov 09 12:19:14 Neverender, thank you. I will read this thread. Nov 09 12:20:18 then you can follow http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Forcing_OTA_Updates Nov 09 12:20:21 If I get all this done with out bothering my cousin, he will buy me dinner at Knickerbockers. If I had his kind of money, I would do the same for you guys. I will be glad to buy you a hotdog though! :) Nov 09 12:20:36 using the modified update.zip Nov 09 13:28:59 the comments in the market anger me Nov 09 13:32:20 hahha Nov 09 13:32:24 oh sorry Nov 09 13:32:33 ok Nov 09 13:32:34 now.. Nov 09 13:32:35 hahahah Nov 09 13:32:54 :( Nov 09 13:33:34 Neverender, but yeah.. it's sad there are so many extreme asshats out there Nov 09 13:34:29 can people without an actual G1 see the comments somewhere? Nov 09 13:35:14 not that I know if Nov 09 13:35:17 *of Nov 09 13:35:23 :( Nov 09 13:35:40 From what I've seen, even the devs that put up the apps don't get to Nov 09 13:35:48 unless they have a G1 and service Nov 09 13:36:21 huh.. thats weird.. Nov 09 13:37:09 they get to see the ratings, but the way the market is unregulated right now, that doesn't mean much Nov 09 13:37:38 people are giving bad reviews just because they don't know what an apps purpose is, like ssh with connectbot Nov 09 13:57:18 ugh Nov 09 13:57:24 owe my cousin a dinner Nov 09 13:57:33 *sigh* thanks guys Nov 09 13:57:36 :) Nov 09 13:58:09 glad he's come along far enough to follow directions Nov 09 14:10:34 hrm, wifi scanner in the market now Nov 09 14:11:28 brand? Nov 09 14:11:40 yea, seems to work well Nov 09 14:11:41 o.O Nov 09 14:11:59 nice that it dumps out the geolocation so you can go back if your warring :) Nov 09 14:12:29 :) Nov 09 14:21:33 Apple Store has a 10mb filesize limit. Which means, if an iPhone dev makes a game >10mb, players has to download and install via iTunes instead of directly from Apple Store. Is there somewhat same limits for the Android market? Nov 09 14:57:10 mr_lou, I kind of doubt it, since there is no iTunes for Android Nov 09 14:57:16 but I don't know for certain Nov 09 14:58:02 No but isn't there an equivalent for Apple Store called Android Marked? Nov 09 14:58:08 ...or sumthin. Nov 09 14:59:07 yeah, but stuff is downloaded via the network Nov 09 14:59:33 Like GPRS or 3G? Nov 09 14:59:45 I'm not familiar with how Apple does it, there isn't a specific desktop client for Android Nov 09 14:59:49 mr_lou, yes, or WiFi Nov 09 15:02:39 anyone knows what key generates a KEYCODE_SOFT_LEFT code? Nov 09 15:06:38 Anything new regarding developer G1s? :-) Nov 09 15:17:27 Do you really need a "developer" g1 when you have root and can flash your own image on now? Nov 09 15:17:41 languish: I dont have any G1. Nov 09 15:17:47 lol ohh ok :) Nov 09 15:17:59 Because I dont want to pay 700€ in Germany at ebay. Nov 09 15:18:10 which means over 1000$ Nov 09 15:18:26 nod Nov 09 15:19:04 Hmm Nov 09 15:19:42 Wonder if the initialization routine can be set to enable wifi instead of 3g, and DHCP an addy, in order to do the gmail sign-in Nov 09 15:19:53 perhaps for a custom image Nov 09 15:20:28 and ignore the lack of SIM Nov 09 15:27:48 mr_lou: considering Google are more than happy to do FOTA updates by downloading it off your GPRS/UMTS/HSDPA connection, I doubt it Nov 09 15:28:03 they seem to assume everyone just gets unlimited internet Nov 09 15:28:35 cmonex, that's t-mobiles call Nov 09 15:28:42 and since they force the FOTA updates, you'll eventually get it in the ass money wise Nov 09 15:28:57 languish: you've heard my bf's opinion, as he stole my keyboard :) Nov 09 15:29:12 google would provide them over the net if t-mobile woild allow it Nov 09 15:29:18 cmonex, lol Nov 09 15:29:44 You do indeed need unlimited internet with Android and iPhone. Nov 09 15:29:53 so making the updates not download till you OK it obviously isn't the sensible thing to do Nov 09 15:29:53 well smack him with the keyboard and tell him to get his facts straight. google's at fault for enough shit, but put blame where it's due Nov 09 15:30:43 are you on crack? are you telling me it's not possible for Google to make FOTA updates download only after authorisation Nov 09 15:30:45 cut the bullshit Nov 09 15:31:38 they're legally bound not to Nov 09 15:31:46 hey, I see on the docs about shared preferences (http://code.google.com/android/devel/data/preferences.html) that you can't share across packages.. does that mean just not across my.package.app and your.other.package.app or can I not do my.package.app and my.package.app.sub ? Nov 09 15:31:55 for the G1, t-mobile has to approve all updates Nov 09 15:32:26 fine, T-mobile has to approve it, that still doesn't factor in to allowing users to delay the download Nov 09 15:32:28 it's the T-Mobile G1. Not the Google G-1. Nov 09 15:32:56 I don't plan on getting unlimited data for just the fact that my phone needs to download an update.. I'm not that rich (it'll be $40 a month just to be sure that when the G1 downloads its updates, I'll be safe) Nov 09 15:32:58 Are there any alternate firmwares available yet? Nov 09 15:33:00 Other carriers may or may not be as restrictive in the future. Nov 09 15:33:18 bgupta, yes there's a "hacked" firmware Nov 09 15:33:20 as it stands, it currently downloads without authorisation and then asks for permission to install Nov 09 15:33:21 for the G1 Nov 09 15:33:29 tauno, doesn't t-mo require unlimited data? Nov 09 15:33:34 and that times out eventually anyway Nov 09 15:33:34 but it requires some prerequisites Nov 09 15:33:45 KNY, there's no t-mo in my country :) Nov 09 15:33:50 KNY -> hungarian tmobile does not offer unlimited data whatsoever Nov 09 15:33:52 tauno, ahh Nov 09 15:33:55 languish: DO you have a link? Nov 09 15:34:21 bgupta http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=443713 Nov 09 15:34:27 remeber those prerequisites Nov 09 15:34:45 legally speaking though, T-mobile should disclude FOTA updates from customer bandwidth usage Nov 09 15:34:59 cmonex, I agree. and I think they do Nov 09 15:35:02 I mean.. I have a freaking 5MB data package (I use wifi most of the time).. and if suddenly my phone tries to download stuff without my knowledge and authorization, then I'm going to be REALLY pissed :P Nov 09 15:35:06 but I'd have to confirm it Nov 09 15:35:36 tauno, how much do you pay for 5MB data? Nov 09 15:35:47 then they should also have the FOTA images stored on an intranet location Nov 09 15:35:49 thats included in my package.. Nov 09 15:35:55 so that they can't be accessed from other providers Nov 09 15:36:11 cmonex, it's t-mobile, why would they do that? Nov 09 15:36:13 languish: they do what? Nov 09 15:36:20 cmonex, I agree. and I think they do Nov 09 15:36:32 cmonex, exloude the data from your tally Nov 09 15:36:38 *exclude Nov 09 15:36:44 it's a T-Mobile device that's intended to be used on T-mobile network Nov 09 15:36:55 why should they put the FOTA update on the internet Nov 09 15:37:15 if someone does use their phone with another provider, that FOTA will probably cost Nov 09 15:37:30 if they locate the updates on a T-mobile internal intranet server, that won't happen, simple as that Nov 09 15:37:33 cmonex, because sometimes you have issues with t-mobile connectivity, and still need a patch. Nov 09 15:38:39 fine, then if you apply it using that method, it shouldn't be mandatory Nov 09 15:39:09 (btw, am I chatting with cmonex or the unreasonable boyfriend?) Nov 09 15:39:17 (lulz) Nov 09 15:39:20 bf Nov 09 15:39:34 yeah, i figured, from the unreasonable tone :P Nov 09 15:40:31 I understand why tmo is doing what they're doing, but I disagree with it due to the open *intent* of android Nov 09 15:41:20 So my only option is to get a G1 from UK (ok, I already got it ordered over here), It'll be $1129 (£40/month, 18 months) + unlocking $24 + $40/month for the rest of the g1 lifetime in case it wants to update behind my back.... Nov 09 15:41:21 also, (gf now), I saw a guy complaining that t-mobile charged him a packet for going over his limit... thanks to the FOTA Nov 09 15:41:38 It'll be fun... Nov 09 15:41:39 cmonex, he went over 10GB? Nov 09 15:41:41 tauno: hack the updater so it doesn't download hehe Nov 09 15:41:45 I'm broke :P Nov 09 15:41:46 languish he wasn't on 10GB apparently Nov 09 15:41:53 not everyone wants to pay 40usd :) Nov 09 15:41:55 Well to be honest I dont understand it since they would sell much more G1s if it would be available without all this lock downs. Nov 09 15:42:05 tmobile has a data limit? Nov 09 15:42:23 rreck: yes, 10GB is the "unlimited" internet :) Nov 09 15:42:29 nfw Nov 09 15:42:38 cmonex, then he wasn't going "by the rules" t-mobile set up for use with being a T-Mobile g1 customer. He has nothing to complain about. He tried to make an end run around their pricing policy and lost Nov 09 15:42:41 i will cancel it immediately Nov 09 15:42:52 you have to be kidding Nov 09 15:43:00 uh huh, uh huh Nov 09 15:43:07 rreck, after 10GB they limit your speed to modem speeds. they don't charge you more, and they don't cut you off Nov 09 15:43:13 they just rate limit you Nov 09 15:43:15 you seem to tow the party line quite admirably languisg Nov 09 15:43:18 *languish Nov 09 15:43:25 are they paying you for this crap? Nov 09 15:43:25 holy fuck Nov 09 15:43:36 I've never seen someone backing such an evidently unfair practice Nov 09 15:44:02 cmonex, no.. I'm just happy that it's not 1GB, that they don't charge more for overage beyhond 10GB, that they don't completely cut us off after 10GB... Nov 09 15:44:03 you think that railroading people into a 40 dollar a month contract for owning a G1 is fair practice then? Nov 09 15:44:23 I call T-Mobile shill Nov 09 15:44:24 * tauno starts to put money aside.. g1 will start eating $40/month just to update itself.. Nov 09 15:44:34 it's a fair market practice, but I don't like it and hope they lose a class action on it, but doubt they will Nov 09 15:44:50 I would prefer to just pay $25 for data, and no voice plan Nov 09 15:45:19 it's not tmobile's fault in my case.. I know the risks that I take.. Nov 09 15:45:26 im so happy im under 14 days Nov 09 15:45:34 i will cancel immediately based on that bs Nov 09 15:45:41 on what BS? Nov 09 15:45:50 10g limit Nov 09 15:45:53 You planned on using more than 10GB/mo on a cell phone? Nov 09 15:46:04 do you know how hard it is to hit 10GB? Nov 09 15:46:13 im not going to be lied to about what unlimited is Nov 09 15:46:14 you have to be actively TRYING to break that limit Nov 09 15:46:17 hard? not hard at all if you tether ;) Nov 09 15:46:17 but generally.. even if I got the phone free.. I didn't want it to update it without my knowledge/authorization.. Nov 09 15:46:23 You realize on tmo's wireless data network, if you used bittorrent, you'd fuck with the network for everyone ? Nov 09 15:46:36 as a developer I have to live with the fact that it does.. as a consumer I would NEVER buys such a phone Nov 09 15:46:38 rreck, technically, unless the speed was unlimited, you could never use an unlimited amount ;) Nov 09 15:46:39 on any data network bittorrent fucks with the network Nov 09 15:46:40 buy* Nov 09 15:46:48 (in europe there is no extra charge on tethering... so yeah, I used a phone last summer for months when I had no DSL yet) Nov 09 15:47:02 well as a consumer im allowed an opinion and that is mine Nov 09 15:47:06 and yes, I agree, t-mobile should be sanctioned for using the word "unlimited" because it isn't. Nov 09 15:47:12 hi, doesn't t-mobile g1 has bluetooth networking feature? or is it because that feature is not enabled in android platform yet? Nov 09 15:47:13 (in europe the whole mobile market is more open *caugh*) Nov 09 15:47:15 (and no I didn't use torrent but had to try hard not to go over a few GB's :( ) Nov 09 15:47:20 to have a limit and make it unspecified when i signed up is the issue not the amount Nov 09 15:47:38 orci, it has bluetooth support, but it's not in the API yet, so we (developers) can't use it yet Nov 09 15:47:40 If you actually read everything, they do not promise the speed at which you'll have unlimited internet access Nov 09 15:47:48 just that you'll have unlimited Nov 09 15:47:57 and they don't cut you off after 10GB, just rate limit you Nov 09 15:47:57 But $25 for 10GB data and no overage charges when I pass it.. just a rate limiting.. I can live with that for the price. Nov 09 15:48:09 the other thing I'm also thinking, perhaps progress related to hacking custom software into the G1 should become more secretive; it's self-evident that Google were following the telnet activity very closely Nov 09 15:48:16 great im an idiot and not a lawyer, but as a consumer im allowed to return it Nov 09 15:48:25 (this is the bf, my opinion on this differs :) ) Nov 09 15:48:27 that you are. Nov 09 15:48:34 well we have a option of 3GB "unlimited" access here.. so you are lucky to have 10GB :P Nov 09 15:48:35 troll Nov 09 15:48:38 cmonex, of course they were, it was being discussed in the freakin android channel. Nov 09 15:48:45 rather be an idiot than a troll Nov 09 15:49:09 KNY, I can expect to have that feature with the same hardware in the future, am I correct? Nov 09 15:49:09 rreck, he's either a troll or inexperienced. Nov 09 15:49:13 *shrug* Nov 09 15:49:13 languish: Another stance is, Google is one of the few companies where the company as a whole and it's employees still take pride in what they deliver Nov 09 15:49:21 tauno: yeah, we have 5GB then FUP over 5GB, in hungary, and it is not even tmobile. tmobile doesn't have that option at all Nov 09 15:49:35 orci, yes. The word is that bluetooth API support will be coming in a future Android update. Nov 09 15:49:35 ismarc, I only partially agree with that. Nov 09 15:49:39 From the consumer point of view unlimted is unlimited and NO cut down version after 10GB. I dont think we have to argue about that. "Unlimited" is fucking marketing. Nov 09 15:49:53 ismarc, some of the employees may be proud of their individual work. Nov 09 15:50:02 But Google is just another large corp like any other Nov 09 15:50:05 KNY, thank you Nov 09 15:50:11 ismarc, as a software dev, I can tell you that the company I work for is pretty proud of their products :) Nov 09 15:50:14 orci, no problem. Nov 09 15:50:27 KNY: Mine is/was, too Nov 09 15:50:58 remember, Google is a marketing and market analytics company. They're all about ad revenue. Nov 09 15:51:10 can I expect to see mozilla/firefox/fennec on android sometime? since they are not developed in Java? Nov 09 15:51:18 Their "products" as the average consumer sees it, are their enticements. Nov 09 15:51:39 orci: I doubt the gekko rendering engine will ever be lightweight enough for reasonable mobile performance Nov 09 15:51:50 am I the only one here who (as a consumer) would never buy a device that does multi MB updates without your knowledge? I mean.. imagine if Microsoft did that.. and it seems that this isn't bothering you guys much :/ Nov 09 15:52:21 tauno: it isn't without your knowledge Nov 09 15:52:35 I can see and disable the downloading progress? Nov 09 15:52:36 tauno: when I received my first OTA upgrade, I had the option to not install it or anything Nov 09 15:52:41 tauno, they don't do the update without your knowledge. They give you the choice of accepting the update or not. All they do is enable and auto-download of the update. Nov 09 15:52:53 and/an Nov 09 15:52:58 I mean the downloading process - it asks you AFTER it has been downloaded to the deivce.. Nov 09 15:53:04 so what? Nov 09 15:53:07 I am really havinghad time with the browser on android platform. it is not very practical for me to browse, I wish zoom in and zoom out was easier such as double click Nov 09 15:53:20 languish: I think his point is that data isn't cheap all over the world. Nov 09 15:53:29 you're supposed to be on t-mobiles $25 or $35 data plan. The download is not a big deal. Nov 09 15:53:30 orci: I agree, that's the one missing feature the iphone has that I enjoy, the double-click zoom to a paragraph Nov 09 15:53:31 orci: how does zoom work then? I've yet to see a G1 :) Nov 09 15:53:40 languish, and you would also be OK when your linux/windows distro downloaded all the updates and you had no way of disabling it? Nov 09 15:53:46 we don't all live in the USA, languisa Nov 09 15:53:48 kRutOn, and t-mobile doesn't offer the G1 all over the world :) Nov 09 15:53:50 cmonex, there is a button Nov 09 15:53:50 *languish Nov 09 15:53:54 orci: however, the default loading the page to a reasonable reading size and the preview move around thing is nicer Nov 09 15:53:59 his point is moot until it's offered in his region. Nov 09 15:54:02 err, nicer than the iphones Nov 09 15:54:02 and how does the button work? Nov 09 15:54:19 cmonex: mash the button and it zooms in or out some Nov 09 15:54:24 ismarc, that is a good feature yes Nov 09 15:54:34 languish (now gf): my opinion is that it is stupid to require a data plan for a phone :) Nov 09 15:54:42 quite Nov 09 15:54:42 cmonex: it's difficult to get it so the paragraph you're reading fits the width of the screen sometimes Nov 09 15:54:46 When the G1 is (if it ever is) offered in your region, there may be different methods to get your localized G1 updates, OR your provider may diclude the updates from your data usage. Nov 09 15:54:54 ismarc: as for iphone zoom, it is horrible, my personal opinion. Nov 09 15:55:00 ismarc, I do not really understand why would not double click zoom in or zoom out Nov 09 15:55:14 ismarc, does not do anything as of now Nov 09 15:55:16 a phone is a phone, internet is internet Nov 09 15:55:27 languish, that's not my point:) I mean.. if my data was free, then I still wouldn't want my phone to automatically download stuff behind my back Nov 09 15:55:31 ..or am I weird? :P Nov 09 15:55:33 and now you're just quoting what they might do, so thanks for stating the bloody obvious there Nov 09 15:55:48 and precisely what tauno states too Nov 09 15:56:01 tauno, the general public doesn't care as long as their devices "work" Nov 09 15:56:23 techies, prefer to know every thing their device does, and have disapproval/control Nov 09 15:56:33 though the reason for forcing the updates has nothing to do with keeping the public happy Nov 09 15:56:42 My internet is "free" and I don't want windows to download stuff without my consent... why should my phone get away with it? Nov 09 15:56:48 cmonex, in part it does Nov 09 15:56:50 it's specifically to mitigate any damage that useful hacks might do Nov 09 15:56:56 cmonex, not true. Nov 09 15:57:03 it's only partly for that reason :) Nov 09 15:57:10 though it IS part of the reason. Nov 09 15:57:20 if you present Joe 6Pack with a dialog saying "look, New update! download now? Yes/No" Nov 09 15:57:31 you can expect Joey will click Yes Nov 09 15:57:38 didn't someone from google say that if you refuse the update x times, it'll autoupdate anyway? :P Nov 09 15:57:47 did they? Nov 09 15:57:49 as it is, he currently receives one asking him whether to install or not Nov 09 15:57:59 yes tauno, that's correct. i looked at the src Nov 09 15:58:26 I read they said that if the download fails it will keep trying to download Nov 09 15:58:32 that too Nov 09 15:58:45 and if it doesn't fail but you press the "Later" button Nov 09 15:58:56 and keep pressing that choice Nov 09 15:58:59 cmonex can you point me to the source? this is.. outrageous IMO.. Nov 09 15:59:00 it will eventually just decide to install Nov 09 15:59:10 and apparently RC30 installs right away without asking Nov 09 15:59:14 if x# of update rejections by the user results in a forced update anyway, that is wrong. Nov 09 15:59:15 tauno, one sec, let me find it Nov 09 15:59:31 and apparently RC30 installs right away without asking <- wrong. Nov 09 15:59:44 RC30 asked me if I wanted to install Nov 09 15:59:51 I said later, then deleted it from my cache Nov 09 15:59:59 http://git.source.android.com/?p=platform/packages/apps/Updater.git;a=blob;f=src/com/android/updater/PesterActivity.java;h=d6682443d455f94a4ddcc1478ff47a45044e4521;hb=HEAD Nov 09 16:00:03 then haxed the G1 Nov 09 16:00:03 scroll to the bottom Nov 09 16:00:25 My wife's RC30 update also *asked* Nov 09 16:00:27 languish: heh it didn't ask someone else. he had a bit of a trouble to prevent it from removing his root access :) Nov 09 16:00:38 he did not remove the otacerts file, though Nov 09 16:00:47 he moved the updater app, or something, iirc Nov 09 16:00:55 so then it errored out and that was his luck :) Nov 09 16:01:07 then he had to hard reset to get it booting again.. Nov 09 16:01:18 i think it was ionstorm Nov 09 16:01:21 cmonex, he likely either lied or didn't realize he hit the prompt. Which is very possible. Nov 09 16:01:34 I almost hit the prompt when I came out of the lock screen Nov 09 16:01:36 or you are wrong, and he didn't lie. Nov 09 16:01:56 I doubt it. I've seen that it asks for permission Nov 09 16:02:02 [22:24:56] RyeBrye, its downloading Nov 09 16:02:02 [22:24:56] wtf Nov 09 16:02:02 [22:25:15] i dont think it will install though ionstorm Nov 09 16:02:02 [22:25:16] fuck Nov 09 16:02:02 [22:25:18] its updating Nov 09 16:02:02 [22:25:20] lets hope not Nov 09 16:02:04 [22:25:21] oh shit Nov 09 16:02:06 [22:25:26] ionstorm: Quick, kill the network. Nov 09 16:02:08 [22:25:28] shIT Nov 09 16:02:10 [22:25:31] ionstorm: Settings > Wireless > Airplane mode Nov 09 16:02:12 [22:25:32] nope Nov 09 16:02:14 [22:25:32] uh oh Nov 09 16:02:16 [22:25:34] its flashing Nov 09 16:02:22 and I doubt they issued different versions Nov 09 16:02:28 yeah I saw that Nov 09 16:02:43 and he likely just didn't want to admit he hit install by accident Nov 09 16:02:45 well dearie... the source code never lies, let's see if google have the capability to do an unprompted update Nov 09 16:02:51 or did so without realizing Nov 09 16:03:08 languish: you are likely just not to admit you might be wrong about something :) Nov 09 16:03:17 I admit I'm wrong often Nov 09 16:03:19 when I am Nov 09 16:03:20 hey guys Nov 09 16:03:26 I have no issue with being wrong Nov 09 16:03:31 im working on an sms groups app Nov 09 16:03:32 cmonex: so can you figure out the path through the code that actaully causes this to happen? Nov 09 16:03:42 it certainly doesn't happen simply because you say no enough times Nov 09 16:03:59 But I doubt very much that an update that was *just* received, will install itself unprompted, from the evidence I've seen to the contrary Nov 09 16:04:07 cmonex, hmm.. yeah.. seems updates can be two types.. either they ask you forever or they ask you X times and then forse update... and this is scary IMHO Nov 09 16:04:21 force* Nov 09 16:04:36 so... set it to ask 0 times? Nov 09 16:04:39 right, but none so far download and auto-install without a prompt Nov 09 16:04:57 it may happen in the future Nov 09 16:04:59 cmonex: no, that wouldn't work, since there is no "how many times to ask" Nov 09 16:05:02 languish, only seeing that this is possible gives me chills.. Nov 09 16:05:10 tauno I agree with that Nov 09 16:05:13 instead only "how often should i ask" Nov 09 16:05:14 better that way :) Nov 09 16:05:19 long now = SystemClock.elapsedRealtime(); Nov 09 16:05:19 long nextPrompt = getNextPromptTime(intent, now); Nov 09 16:05:20 if (nextPrompt == 0) { Nov 09 16:05:20 Log.i(TAG, "Installing overdue OTA update without prompting"); Nov 09 16:05:20 installUpdate(); Nov 09 16:05:20 return; Nov 09 16:05:22 } Nov 09 16:05:33 look through getNextPromptTime Nov 09 16:06:23 languish: did you have any problems with the automatic update? Nov 09 16:06:28 see when forever becomes false Nov 09 16:06:30 I installed the android SDK how can I run the emulator to use with operaMini.apk for example? Nov 09 16:06:33 neekers, none. Nov 09 16:06:34 any suggesions on what needs to go into the sms groups? edit should just be a list of all numbers on your phone will multiple choice, or should it be a list thatyucan add or delete from one at a time Nov 09 16:06:42 me niether Nov 09 16:06:42 if (intervals.endsWith(",...")) { Nov 09 16:06:42 86 forever = true; Nov 09 16:06:42 87 intervals = intervals.substring(0, intervals.length() - 4); Nov 09 16:06:42 88 } else { Nov 09 16:06:42 89 forever = false; Nov 09 16:06:43 90 } Nov 09 16:07:05 actually I installed the eclipse plugin only, does this mean I do not have an emulator? Nov 09 16:07:14 that's from getNextPromptTime Nov 09 16:07:31 and now see if anyone actually calls the updater with a promptMinutes interval that doesn't include ... Nov 09 16:07:31 blau, and multi-select if possible :) Nov 09 16:07:35 :) Nov 09 16:07:39 orci, you have to install the SDK? Nov 09 16:08:02 blau, not sure do I have to? Nov 09 16:08:08 DannyB, why the hell is this check there then? Nov 09 16:08:36 DannyB, I guess it's not without a reason :P Nov 09 16:08:37 and how do we do that DannyB Nov 09 16:08:52 so you've basically gone from "Google can't do that" to "Google don't do that" Nov 09 16:09:02 doesn't really lend you much credibilitz Nov 09 16:09:06 *credibility Nov 09 16:09:12 fucking Hungarian keyboards Nov 09 16:09:14 olinex: uh, it's an activity. you have the source, you can look Nov 09 16:09:23 ...yeah my bf can't get used to these keyboards :) Nov 09 16:09:28 I have the source code Nov 09 16:09:33 not a bloody update Nov 09 16:10:01 ta do Nov 09 16:10:01 you have the update zips too! Nov 09 16:10:16 no DannyB, my bf doesn't have them... Nov 09 16:10:27 then he shouldn't wank until he does :) Nov 09 16:10:28 but not all possible future updates Nov 09 16:10:28 however I have them, so we can look up this for him Nov 09 16:10:31 DannyB, yeah, but future updates can still do it? Nov 09 16:10:36 so even if none of them so far do it, they might later Nov 09 16:10:37 incandenza is so correct ;Õ Nov 09 16:10:38 tauno: there are legit times you may need to force an update Nov 09 16:10:39 ;P Nov 09 16:10:49 DannyB, that would be the kill switch :) Nov 09 16:10:51 DannyB, are you a linux or windows user? Nov 09 16:10:54 ok. DannyB have you lived in a dictatorship? Nov 09 16:11:06 languish: no, but i have watched phones that break cell phone networks :) Nov 09 16:11:13 DannyB, nod. Nov 09 16:11:19 due to bad protocol implementations, etc Nov 09 16:11:31 yeah, I expect a rash of those any day now. Nov 09 16:11:35 *sigh* Nov 09 16:11:41 why would you? Nov 09 16:11:43 languish: it happened with iphone 2.0 Nov 09 16:11:46 then those phone networks suck Nov 09 16:11:48 hence 2.0.1 Nov 09 16:11:59 olinex, because there are people out there that will dev apps just to mess with everyone else. Nov 09 16:12:02 DannyB, I have also seen computers break computer networks. Now imagine if Windows included code that allows someone to just FORCE UPDATE it to never start again... cool with that? Nov 09 16:12:12 tauno: it uh, does include such code! Nov 09 16:12:22 hth! Nov 09 16:12:25 languish hmm i've yet to see that happen Nov 09 16:12:26 olinex, and there are devs that just have no clue and don't test properly. They bang out unproven code and release it. Nov 09 16:12:45 also, the kill switch press neglected to note that only apps you download from market can be killswitched. but that's neither here nor there :) Nov 09 16:12:51 bad apps tend to get bad names, people aren't going to get wide publicity for device malware Nov 09 16:13:12 the overriding reason for google to force an update is purely to prevent people from being able to do something interesting with their device Nov 09 16:13:12 it would be wildly stupid of us to not have a way to force update phones if we really needed to Nov 09 16:13:17 the current update is material proof Nov 09 16:13:18 bullshit Nov 09 16:13:21 DannyB, is that a function of the Market app, or just a restriction due to the market terms? Nov 09 16:13:31 if we didn't want people to do interseting things with their device we never would have released the source Nov 09 16:13:35 not only did google plug the bug, they took out the ability to get yourself root Nov 09 16:13:42 DannyB you are with google? i.e. a dev? Nov 09 16:13:51 olinex is gonna love this answer Nov 09 16:13:51 i am Nov 09 16:13:55 aww Nov 09 16:14:00 you gave him the short answer Nov 09 16:14:01 lol Nov 09 16:14:04 ;) Nov 09 16:14:12 DannyB, any link to somewhere to back this up? (windows kill switch I mean) :) Nov 09 16:14:21 him? her. that was gf's (cmonex) question =) Nov 09 16:14:24 wait Nov 09 16:14:34 DannyB works as a dev and also didn't know that Google can force a FOTA Nov 09 16:14:40 i knew Nov 09 16:14:41 now THAT *is* scary Nov 09 16:14:45 olinex haha well you're both using the same nick Nov 09 16:14:46 where did i say i didn't know Nov 09 16:14:53 oh, so what, propaganda? Nov 09 16:15:04 no Nov 09 16:15:07 the discussion was Nov 09 16:15:10 "does rc30 force update" Nov 09 16:15:18 I pointed out how to figure it out Nov 09 16:15:21 where is the propaganda? Nov 09 16:15:25 cmonex: no, that wouldn't work, since there is no "how many times to ask" Nov 09 16:15:35 there is no how many times to ask Nov 09 16:15:41 there is only "when should i next ask" Nov 09 16:15:46 which is exactly what i said Nov 09 16:15:47 Well that was everyone's discussion but olinex's who was discussing potential forced updates at any point Nov 09 16:15:51 DannyB, are you in the legal team? ;) Nov 09 16:15:52 oh, so now you're just being clever with words Nov 09 16:15:58 clever with words? Nov 09 16:16:05 I'm saying what the code does Nov 09 16:16:25 you are just grabbing lines out of context and pretending i didn't say things 5 seconds later Nov 09 16:16:25 you're just being anal retentive over the wording to describe the end result of the code Nov 09 16:16:35 ? Nov 09 16:16:44 we're taking YOU out of context? Nov 09 16:16:49 DannyB, olinex is on a mission. Nov 09 16:16:51 pot, kettle, black Nov 09 16:16:55 And he's a bit.. out there. Nov 09 16:17:04 11:05:12] instead only "how often should i ask" Nov 09 16:17:11 Don't expect reason, and I suspect he's high too. Nov 09 16:17:18 i figure as much Nov 09 16:17:18 [18:14] DannyB, any link to somewhere to back this up? (windows kill switch I mean) :) Nov 09 16:17:20 no skin off my back Nov 09 16:17:22 I think we were pretty clear that we said they can force a FOTA Nov 09 16:17:25 tauno: they've done it before Nov 09 16:17:34 again, evidence? Nov 09 16:17:36 tauno: they kill swithced a bunch of chinese pirated copies Nov 09 16:17:59 They can force it on virgin g1's but not on mine :P Nov 09 16:18:02 search microsoft kill swithc windows Nov 09 16:18:08 and you'll see they removed it in vista sp1 Nov 09 16:18:13 but prior to that, they could kill switch machines Nov 09 16:18:15 hth Nov 09 16:18:32 they kill switched some chinese machines using WGA before Nov 09 16:18:41 you couldn't login, only enter a new product key :) Nov 09 16:19:07 DannyB, you see.. they removed it :) it isn't there anymore ;) Nov 09 16:19:14 although you could recover by going into safe mode i believe Nov 09 16:19:29 as winlogon.exe doesn't check out licensing in safe mode Nov 09 16:19:47 This is a rediculous discussion now. Nov 09 16:19:57 *ridiculous? Nov 09 16:19:58 a useful trick someone made involved writing a hook driver that makes winlogon always think you were in safe mode Nov 09 16:20:01 * languish should check Nov 09 16:20:06 ridiculous Nov 09 16:20:39 well, I think the argument was that a) forcing a FOTA to download is evil Nov 09 16:20:53 and b) inevitable update is also evil Nov 09 16:21:13 olinex you installed the modified RC30? Nov 09 16:21:13 you are going to be hard pressed to find a phone that doesn't have this Nov 09 16:21:15 hth Nov 09 16:21:28 Laz: we don't have a G1... yet Nov 09 16:21:32 lol Nov 09 16:21:45 find a phone that doesn't have what? Nov 09 16:21:46 yes, this is getting pretty rediculous. If MS would include a FORCE update mechanism that can replace the whole system if it wanted to, people would go crazy. If Google does the same, people just live with it. Nov 09 16:22:00 DannyB, we have a lot of HTC devices Nov 09 16:22:06 tauno: find me a phone that doesn't include a way to force updates Nov 09 16:22:07 and they don't, and can't do this Nov 09 16:22:10 In my opinion this is false. It's just my opinion.. Nov 09 16:22:14 now that's just bullshit Nov 09 16:22:19 DannyB: I've never seen one before G1 that did this.. Nov 09 16:22:39 no Danny, it's not, there is nothing inside the WM ROM that allows HTC to put an update on the device Nov 09 16:22:51 all updates have to be downloaded by the user and flashed over USB Nov 09 16:23:05 DannyB: The modified G1 doesnt force auto updates ;p Nov 09 16:23:10 FOTA is supported for the radio, but not implemented Nov 09 16:23:47 so DannyB why do you think this statement was BS? Nov 09 16:24:10 becuase they can force update the radio Nov 09 16:24:17 nope Nov 09 16:24:20 okay dude Nov 09 16:24:24 there's no listener on the OS Nov 09 16:24:27 nothing that calls home Nov 09 16:24:37 ls Nov 09 16:24:48 someone give eggy a listing Nov 09 16:24:49 anyway, i'm going to go enjoy my sunday Nov 09 16:24:59 wrong window =p Nov 09 16:25:00 it's ok DannyB =) Nov 09 16:25:02 :) Nov 09 16:25:17 our sunday ends soon, past 5PM here Nov 09 16:25:23 :/ Nov 09 16:25:46 DannyB, now "[18:22] tauno: find me a phone that doesn't include a way to force updates" is not a very good argument isn't it? I doubt you guys did it just becasue everyone else is doing it.. You did this for a specific reason.. and whatever that reason might be, it's wrong in my opinion -there just isn't an excuse for this in my book.. sorry. Nov 09 16:26:20 tauno: if your option comes down to "release a phone with a way to force update", and "don't release a phone", you are saying you would choose the latter? Nov 09 16:26:20 I thought Google devs might be a bit more clued up than this Nov 09 16:26:29 tauno, the phone is on t-mobiles network. You think t-mobile wants a phone on their network they can't control? Nov 09 16:26:35 for legal purposes Nov 09 16:26:41 still, if this is the road you're going down, you are absolutely going to LOVE us as time goes by Nov 09 16:26:48 I mean, they KNOW people will hack the phones. Nov 09 16:26:53 i hate to break it to you Nov 09 16:26:57 since you seem to think we care Nov 09 16:27:06 but if you want to go hack your phone Nov 09 16:27:10 personally, i say "have fun" Nov 09 16:27:17 DannyB, so someone else gave you the cchoice that either Android supports this feature or there will NEVER be phones that use that OS? Nov 09 16:27:38 tauno, Google just makes an OS and helps with the overall platform Nov 09 16:27:45 tauno: i'm just asking questions here :) Nov 09 16:28:00 DannyB: wrong impression there Nov 09 16:28:05 tauno, google isn't the "isp" and the "G1" isn't "Google's phone" Nov 09 16:28:22 btw tauno, I was told by some other google dev that the G1 is like this, Nov 09 16:28:25 this whole root access thing is stupid Nov 09 16:28:30 but other android phones won1t necessarily be locked down Nov 09 16:28:31 people need to get over it Nov 09 16:28:38 Never!! Nov 09 16:29:10 michaelnovakjr__: well no, because it's the gateway to being able to flash the device with your own shit Nov 09 16:29:14 olinex, the device's state of lockdownedness is up to the carrier that distributes the phone. Nov 09 16:29:15 and that's why I don't see how they would care what tmo says.. just make a damn good OS and thats it.. if a mobile netwok operator wants his special stuff.. then they can include it (and they would have to disclose it to the buyers of the phones that they can still do whatever they want to do with the phones.. even after the phones are legally not theirs anymore).. it's an open source project.. I just don't see it why this should be included i Nov 09 16:29:33 cmonex: like... Nov 09 16:29:34 tauno: hey great, so then we have a phone OS that nobody can use Nov 09 16:29:36 languish: this is what I hinted to above, yes Nov 09 16:29:39 that would work out amazing :) Nov 09 16:30:13 michaelnovakjr: like anything :) Nov 09 16:30:14 DannyB, so you say that there are no mobile hardware makers in the world that will include android when it doesn't have a force update mechanism? I call BS ;) Nov 09 16:30:15 hold on, wife's parents leaving Nov 09 16:30:18 see xda-developers Nov 09 16:30:23 custom roms are flooding it.. Nov 09 16:30:33 to be honest I don't know why they are this popular, but they are :) Nov 09 16:30:35 tauno, the problem there is.. certain aspects of the device are protected by the carrier, google couldn't legally put some of the drivers in, so the OS wouldn't work fully on the devices. Nov 09 16:30:54 in any case, your updater mechanism can only do so much to lock people down Nov 09 16:30:58 And then no one would be interested Nov 09 16:31:17 The google devs have stated repeatedly.. they wish the G1 weren't so locked down. It wasn't their call. Nov 09 16:31:42 It wasn't even googles call Nov 09 16:31:55 but then, this is just the G1, not "android" that is so locked down Nov 09 16:32:02 (and not so locked down at the same time) Nov 09 16:32:28 I don't like every choice made with this device.. but at least put the blame where it belongs. Nov 09 16:32:47 I think Google should have told TMO to go screw themselves on releasing it as unfinished as it is Nov 09 16:32:55 but that was TMO's call Nov 09 16:33:03 they wanted it out "now" not later. Nov 09 16:33:12 so sayeth a few gdevs Nov 09 16:33:57 So if you want to evangelize, just do it in the right peoples faces Nov 09 16:35:07 or at least make the correct points at google that are actually googles fault Nov 09 16:35:16 I think that google should stand up and say to tmo that "you can implement your locking down part of the code if you wish.. it's open source afterall and we won't implement crappy stuff in our main branch just because YOU want to have total controll over the devices that you don't legally own.. do it yourself if you want to..we don't care" I know that this is not possible in todays world.. I'm living in a perfect world here where people are go Nov 09 16:35:41 except you sign the contract :) Nov 09 16:35:43 you cut off after where people are Nov 09 16:35:49 just get over it already :) Nov 09 16:35:56 michaelnovakjr, no he buys it off ebay Nov 09 16:35:59 :/ Nov 09 16:36:18 or lives somewhere there's no t-mobile service, but wants a G1 anyway Nov 09 16:36:42 even if I bought it directly from tmo - is it really written in the contract that they can do whatever they want to do with your phone after you have bought it?.. just wondering Nov 09 16:36:43 or gets it from t-mobile, but tries to make it run off the t-zones plan Nov 09 16:36:47 after having an iPhone i can't complain :) Nov 09 16:36:49 and complains about data usage charges Nov 09 16:37:21 languish, I don't complain about charges - I complain over the fact that I can't control them :) Nov 09 16:37:22 languish: contrary to your belief, it wasn't a mission :) Nov 09 16:37:24 Anyone compared the size of Google to the size of T-Mobile lately? Nov 09 16:37:30 tauno: i believe they have control of usage on their network Nov 09 16:37:54 cmonex, it was a rant :) and sometimes an unstable one :/ I agree with the concepts completely, but the presentation needs work. Nov 09 16:37:59 back Nov 09 16:38:04 michaelnovakjr__ but if I'm not on their network, they can still force the update and do whatever they want with my device - is this also in their contract? :) Nov 09 16:38:05 where were we in burning google in effigy Nov 09 16:38:06 it wasn't a presentation either :) Nov 09 16:38:15 just a rant in a channel... we believe in free speech :P Nov 09 16:38:17 cmonex, that's not what that use of presentation means Nov 09 16:38:19 ok, we are going now Nov 09 16:38:25 Weird the g1 says im connected to a tmobile hotspot but when i find all the information about the hotspot it has my phones ip as if the phone is the hotspot Nov 09 16:38:29 tauno: if you aren't on their network that shouldn't eork Nov 09 16:38:38 back in 1 hr, then my bf will have his own nick too :) (he was using my pc now.) Nov 09 16:38:48 michaelnovakjr__ wait what?.. Nov 09 16:38:49 olipro, btw :) if anyone got a WM htc phone here.. Nov 09 16:38:59 So, uh, why have none of you taken the open-source code, put it on a device, and sold is as an unlocked product to the developers who obviously want it? What is stopping you? Nov 09 16:40:03 I'm pretty sure there are no technical or legal barriers. Nov 09 16:40:06 ahaberlacho: free market fails us again :( Nov 09 16:40:12 (Although I'm not a lawyer) Nov 09 16:40:17 I know someone who is! Nov 09 16:40:27 the only issue you'd hit is the audio/video codecs issue Nov 09 16:40:29 ok one last thing... I would also ask why nobody uses the SPL's (bootloader) flashing ability; and why did USB connection get disabled in production phones? Nov 09 16:40:29 ahaberlacho, isn't that what the openmoko project is all about? Nov 09 16:40:32 but if you worked with a pre-existing phone carrier Nov 09 16:40:36 you'd be fine Nov 09 16:40:38 (USB in bootloader, i.e. "fastboot") Nov 09 16:40:42 s/carrier/handset maker/ Nov 09 16:41:06 KNY: Sure, but their software sucks and their organization is a total failure. Android just handed you the software, and organization is just a logistics issue. I ask again: why aren't people doing this? Nov 09 16:41:12 Or are we assuming that people are? Nov 09 16:41:18 cmonex: i use the bootloader flashing all the time :) Nov 09 16:41:22 ahaberlacho, I believe they're moving to android Nov 09 16:41:49 DannyB: this is why I am asking. why did USB get disabled in production phones? and why are there no updates to flash from bootloader? Nov 09 16:42:37 cmonex: Don't remember whether we were asked or whether we did it. I believe tmo asked us to. Nov 09 16:42:47 what reason could they have for that? Nov 09 16:42:50 cmonex: but don't quote me on that ;) Nov 09 16:42:52 tmobile WM HTC phones have the ability Nov 09 16:43:02 (WM=windows mobile of course) Nov 09 16:43:04 the WM phones are not open source Nov 09 16:43:14 as much as you guys do to them Nov 09 16:43:22 how does that have anything to do with the SPL disabling on g1? Nov 09 16:43:33 the SPL is not open source, btw. Nov 09 16:43:40 i mean not even on the G1. Nov 09 16:43:58 cmonex, if you want to know the reasons for restrictions that tmo put in place, ask tmo? Nov 09 16:43:59 when G2 coming? Nov 09 16:44:02 nor is the radio :D Nov 09 16:44:07 cmonex: you have a very good appreciate of the technical side of this, but very little of the legal side Nov 09 16:44:12 with beter resolution Nov 09 16:44:12 languish: how am i to know if it was even tmo? Nov 09 16:44:15 s/appreciate/appreciation/ Nov 09 16:44:16 DannyB meant: cmonex: you have a very good appreciation of the technical side of this, but very little of the legal side Nov 09 16:44:33 DannyB: this is why i'm asking about the reasons. Nov 09 16:44:42 s/beter/better/ Nov 09 16:44:42 eldenz meant: with better resolution Nov 09 16:44:48 yes, but you implicitly assume the reasons are rational Nov 09 16:44:51 cmonex, if you paid attention on the channel.. you'd know from dev comments that the majority of the issues you're complaining about were enforced by tmo Nov 09 16:44:52 and logical Nov 09 16:44:55 I did not assume anything, DannyB Nov 09 16:44:56 they wanted the phone locked down Nov 09 16:44:56 =) Nov 09 16:45:15 s/e/a/ Nov 09 16:45:15 eldenz meant: with bater resolution Nov 09 16:45:19 cmonex: Sure, because you asked "wy would they do that" Nov 09 16:45:21 s/e/a/g Nov 09 16:45:22 eldenz meant: with batar rasolution Nov 09 16:45:25 the answer is "because" Nov 09 16:45:29 lol fun, sry Nov 09 16:45:30 languish: devs never explicitly stated it was tmo. see DannyB's reply abvoe. they always say they don't remember... Nov 09 16:45:35 interesting that too Nov 09 16:45:41 cmonex: i can look it up if you like Nov 09 16:45:46 cmonex, yes they did. Nov 09 16:45:47 then please do :) Nov 09 16:45:49 cmonex: whether it was us or tmo Nov 09 16:45:55 languish: hmm never when i asked.. Nov 09 16:45:56 cmonex you may not have been on the channel long enough Nov 09 16:46:01 and i asked a few times Nov 09 16:46:02 it's simply a sunday and the people i'd need to ask are not around Nov 09 16:46:10 cool, DannyB Nov 09 16:46:12 cmonex, it may have been how you asked :) Nov 09 16:46:23 I'd be pretty sure that it was at T-Mobile's request that the phones are locked. Nov 09 16:46:37 But as Danny said, I don't think either of us are willing to speak for the company on that. :) Nov 09 16:46:44 cmonex, the gdevs at various times have redressed this issue Nov 09 16:46:44 ahaberlacho: my q wasn't about the locking - I'm just curious why there are no NBH updates Nov 09 16:46:59 I was actually out on paternity leave when all the image-signing stuff was implemented and tested. Nov 09 16:47:03 as it is clear that the SPL can receive a signed NBH update even in production phones off the SD Nov 09 16:47:05 NBH? Nov 09 16:47:10 DREAIMG.NBH Nov 09 16:47:17 DannyB, one more thing.. do you really believe that when you hadn't implemented user-unfriendly stuff that tmo wanted, then Android would never become a widely used platform? :) Nov 09 16:47:26 we just had a guess at this, as the WM HTC SPL's use ****IMG.NBH to flash from SD... Nov 09 16:47:41 and yes the G1 detects it and the error code is the same as a WM SPL would give you if the NBH is not signed Nov 09 16:47:45 amazing Nov 09 16:48:05 I'm pretty sure that if we had launched a completely unlocked and unsubsidized phone for twice the cost and with no carrier backing, that we would not be hwere we are today. Nov 09 16:48:12 right Nov 09 16:48:20 i wouldn't say "never" Nov 09 16:48:29 I would say "not in the next 5 years" Nov 09 16:48:33 I'm just surprised that USB is disabled, and that NBH's aren't redist'd, just these OTA's :) Nov 09 16:48:41 thanks for asking them, DannyB Nov 09 16:48:43 And T-Mobile and HTC were both pretty crucial to making the G-1 a successful device. Nov 09 16:48:58 hehe, i think google's name alone sells it already :) Nov 09 16:48:58 cmonex but they are redistributed, by the underground :) Nov 09 16:49:13 cmonex and everyone knew that was going to happen eventually Nov 09 16:49:14 languish: Ive yet to see a real DREAIMG.NBH Nov 09 16:49:27 "eventually' Nov 09 16:49:36 cmonex : Yeah, but it would sell it to 10,000 die-hards who would spend all their time getting root on it and not turning it onto a profitable product. Nov 09 16:49:55 what I do find interesting really is the exclusivity T-Mobile got on this; if anything, Google should be positioned to lay down the law to T-Mob Nov 09 16:49:59 I still don't know what an NBH is or what you want. Nov 09 16:50:01 (oops my bf stole keyb again) Nov 09 16:50:12 ahaberlacho: I (well, we) come from WM HTC phones Nov 09 16:50:26 cmonex : Once again, check the relative sizes of T-Mobile and Google. Also, Google doesn't exactly own a nationwide 3G network. :) Nov 09 16:50:28 NBH is the file extension of the updates and the bootloader (SPL) flashes it Nov 09 16:50:48 ahaberlacho: my guess is ATT already took the iphone eh ;) Nov 09 16:50:54 But are you complaining that you can't install updates from the sdcard? People have been doing that. Nov 09 16:51:01 the iPhone is still the iPhone Nov 09 16:51:01 It's just that you can't generate your updates, it seems. Nov 09 16:51:13 it's not the ATT ePhone Nov 09 16:51:16 ahaberlacho: we almost did :) Nov 09 16:51:21 own a nationwide 3g network Nov 09 16:51:27 the brand awareness is centered around Apple Nov 09 16:51:48 are you saying Google aren't confident enough about their brand awareness to put their own name on the device? Nov 09 16:51:49 DannyB : Oh, sure, but that would make less sense than YouTube. :) Nov 09 16:51:55 and yes, I realise the "G" is for Google Nov 09 16:52:07 i hate how he steals my keyb.. Nov 09 16:52:30 beat him down Nov 09 16:52:32 cmonex, tell olinex to use own of his winmo devices to irc. Nov 09 16:52:35 :| Nov 09 16:52:36 cmonex : No, but Google wants to put their name on _all_ devices, and if it's too much on the G-1, then people think we're too in bed with T-Mobile and don't want the name on their device. Nov 09 16:52:41 it says google on the back Nov 09 16:52:43 but it's still the "T-mobile G1" which in branding terms, and definitely in my mind, labels you as their bitch Nov 09 16:52:47 languish: cool idea Nov 09 16:52:51 Google wants to be associated with Android, not the T-Mobile G1. Nov 09 16:53:13 It's the "T-Mobile G1 with Google". Nov 09 16:53:23 ahaberlacho: good explanation Nov 09 16:53:26 btw Nov 09 16:53:40 [17:48:52] But are you complaining that you can't install updates from the sdcard? People have been doing that. Nov 09 16:53:47 no, i'm complaning about removing USB from SPL Nov 09 16:53:53 (SPL : htc bootloader) Nov 09 16:54:08 so update the bootloaer Nov 09 16:54:19 you have it from similar HTC devices, no? Nov 09 16:54:26 So you're complaining that you can't install updates from the bootloader? Why not use the sdcard? :) Nov 09 16:54:27 is that a joke? Nov 09 16:54:30 Hi guys! Nov 09 16:54:47 olinex: i've written bootloaders for embedded boards, so no Nov 09 16:54:48 ahaberlacho: it takes signed NBH apparently. and I've yet to see one out there Nov 09 16:55:00 * MikHel is back online and sees there's a big marketing philosophy discussion going on! :D Nov 09 16:55:05 DannyB: so yes you were joking... "similar" is not enough. Nov 09 16:55:17 you can get the target board specs fairly easily Nov 09 16:55:21 It's olinex's way or the highway! Nov 09 16:55:22 it's not like those are secret Nov 09 16:55:36 ahaberlacho: I don't see the point of personal remarks Nov 09 16:55:43 DannyB: htc keeps it all secret Nov 09 16:55:45 All you need is a soldering iron and a jtag rig! :) Nov 09 16:55:59 right Nov 09 16:56:00 Has anybody been able to play music audio to a bluetooth headset? Nov 09 16:56:07 ahaberlacho: and the testpoints and their order Nov 09 16:56:20 you are talking about a few weeks of work Nov 09 16:56:28 MikHel, the G1 doesn't support stereo bluetooth, yet. Nov 09 16:56:29 look, if swetland can do it, ..... Nov 09 16:56:30 MikHel : A2DP is not in this version of the software, but you can assume that we're working on it. Nov 09 16:56:32 what's the purpose of that work then? Nov 09 16:56:44 thisi s getting pretty pointless Nov 09 16:56:44 then you have a bootloader with USB support, which you seem to want Nov 09 16:56:55 since you don't seem to like updates from sdcard Nov 09 16:56:57 DannyB, I'm sure it wouldn't be as quick as it is currently.. But what about releasing A GREAT product that the users LOVE and are willing to pay more becasue it's just so damn good? instead of releasing a stripped version of it just so people would pick it up more quickly.. Other than that - there are markets (and not only very small ones) where the operators have no role in what phones people buy - there's no operator branding/subsidizing or Nov 09 16:56:58 all I asked was *why* was the USB removed and why are there no NBH updates Nov 09 16:57:08 SD is fine, I just wondered about the reasob Nov 09 16:57:10 reason* Nov 09 16:57:17 what do we need to update in NBH right now? Nov 09 16:57:18 languish, ahaberlacho: ah! OK I guess I will have to be patient. A bit disappointing though. Nov 09 16:57:32 languish: my bf doesnt want to use WM phone for irc, he decided to leave when i didnt let him access the keyb :P Nov 09 16:57:35 MikHel : Yeah, I wasn't so happy about it either. Nov 09 16:57:39 MikHel, yeah.. I was disappointed too :| Nov 09 16:57:39 and i told you i'd find out whether usb was removed by us or tmo in a day or two :) Nov 09 16:57:51 DannyB: all I asked was *why* was the USB removed and why are there no NBH updates. wondered about the reasons is *all*. Nov 09 16:57:53 cmonex, bit of a hothead 'eh Nov 09 16:57:56 Let's hope it comes up soon... Nov 09 16:58:02 DannyB ok cool, thanks for that =) Nov 09 16:58:12 languish: that's an understatement Nov 09 16:58:14 hehe Nov 09 16:58:18 :D Nov 09 16:58:32 cmonex, my real question was.. how high was he today? Nov 09 16:58:32 ok, reaally going now :) Nov 09 16:58:33 :| Nov 09 16:58:38 oh? he never took drugs Nov 09 16:58:41 heh Nov 09 16:58:47 define drugs Nov 09 16:58:56 proscribed pharms? Nov 09 16:59:00 whatever makes you high Nov 09 16:59:00 :P Nov 09 16:59:17 he's on something, and if, maybe should be :| Nov 09 16:59:22 *if not Nov 09 16:59:31 nah he's not that bad :) Nov 09 16:59:34 but yeah, tell'im to keep up the good fight Nov 09 16:59:38 heheh Nov 09 16:59:41 DannyB, I know you won't ever do it becasue Google is a company after all that wants to get as much money and as quickly as it can :) But againg.. I'm living in a perfect world here.. and these kind of things make me a little sad :/ Nov 09 16:59:42 ok bye bye Nov 09 16:59:43 at least he has ideals Nov 09 16:59:46 o/ Nov 09 16:59:56 tauno: yes because we make so much money off these phones Nov 09 17:00:11 lol Nov 09 17:01:18 DannyB, err.. more G1s -> more Ad revenue for google.. how can you say that you are not making money? ;) Nov 09 17:01:20 I'm actually curiously waiting for Googles break even announcement on android Nov 09 17:01:26 Anyway, to come back to another discussion: has anyone built a "kill app" that would make me or anyone want root access on their phone? Or is it still just theoreetical? Nov 09 17:01:59 ahaberlacho: you can hax your startup logo ;) Nov 09 17:02:19 yeah, full theming is a start Nov 09 17:02:34 tauno: look, in a perfect world, you'd say "screw everyone", release it completely unsubsidized, and nobody would use it. Sometimes you have to make compromises the first time just to get things out there so you can do better things later. as ahaberlach said, you guys are more than free to take the source and build your own phone. that's in fact, part of the point! Nov 09 17:02:37 well I wouldn't say *full* Nov 09 17:02:42 thats the only thing, I thought... Nov 09 17:02:45 I wanna put a party hat on my android startup animation Nov 09 17:02:53 G1's will drive people to Googles products -> Google makes more money. The faster the G1 sells the faster Google makes money.. isn't that hard is it.. Nov 09 17:02:56 ahaberlacho: i wanna put the cylon animation back Nov 09 17:03:15 DannyB, can you show us the cylon animation? Nov 09 17:03:21 yea Nov 09 17:03:23 I was about to ask Nov 09 17:03:29 isn't it still in the early sdk's? Nov 09 17:03:31 languish : Fix in your mind the image of a cylon eye going back and forth. Nov 09 17:03:35 Ok, you've got it. Nov 09 17:03:40 DannyB : I believe so. Nov 09 17:03:45 I dunno Nov 09 17:03:45 ahh Nov 09 17:03:53 ahaberlacho :) Nov 09 17:03:58 Maybe I should learn how to hack up JF's RC30 so I can drop my own logo in Nov 09 17:04:26 You can also hum the "Knight Rider" theme and think of K.I.T.T. if you're old-school. Nov 09 17:04:28 DannyB, My point is that there are markets where no phones are subsidized.. these markets are not that small.. why not release a unsubsidized phone there (becasue it's an even playing field) - if it's a bad phone/OS nobody will buy it as you sayd.. if it's a good phone/OS people will buy it more than other phones.. Nov 09 17:04:34 ahaberlacho: same thought Nov 09 17:04:40 And if you mention the non-Hasslhoff Knight Rider I'll do what I can to get you banned from the channel. Nov 09 17:04:50 ahh to me, cylons are older school than kitt Nov 09 17:04:53 :| Nov 09 17:04:56 tauno: because then your platform dies a horrible death because nobody uses it? Nov 09 17:05:14 See: BeOS Nov 09 17:05:24 It was better than what was out there Nov 09 17:05:32 it was not put in front of a big enough audience for various reasons Nov 09 17:05:43 I think making it high-quality and open source just about guarantees it'll get used all over the place Nov 09 17:06:03 And it appealed to hackers who wanted root on their systems and not people who wanted to pay money for platforms or apps. Nov 09 17:06:07 NetShadow, do you consider Ubuntu to be high quality? Nov 09 17:06:28 NetShadow : Like Linux! Why, as the dominant desktop software platform, Linux demonstrates that nicely! Nov 09 17:06:48 Yeah, I'd say so. No platform's perfect but it's very usable and stable for most. Nov 09 17:06:50 Well, what we ARE talking about here, IS linux. Nov 09 17:06:53 :| Nov 09 17:06:55 with a vm Nov 09 17:07:25 While I admit that on the server side, Linux and its associated open-source services have been awesome, there's a bigger difference to the enlightened consumer between "free as in beer" and "paying an assload of money to Microsoft, Sun, and Oracle every year." Nov 09 17:07:38 And if you look at another linux, that IS on handsets.. Nov 09 17:07:44 and show me just how open THAT is.. Nov 09 17:07:49 On the desktop side, however, people want a computer they can buy at Circuit City that is well-supported and keeps working. Nov 09 17:07:59 They don't want to spend every Friday night updating their audio drivers. Nov 09 17:08:02 DannyB, err.. what do you mean by "nobody uses it" ? I don't get you :/ I'm not talking about USA or UK here where phones are subsidized.. I'm talking about "free" markets here where people use the phone that is the best.. there are millions of phone users there.. why do you think that if you'd put an Android based phone there, then "nobody would use it"? That's the same as admitting that Android is worse then Symbian, WM etc.. Nov 09 17:08:35 OpenMoko's a good example, there *will* be good ports of Android for open platforms, given enough time. It's just a shame the G1 wasn't an open platform. Nov 09 17:08:54 Ok, "nobody" can be interpreted as "not enough", then. I know the ballpark figure of how much money Google has spent bringing Android up to the G1. It's not cheap. :) Nov 09 17:09:08 NetShadow : The platform is open, but the G1 device is not. Nov 09 17:09:25 And the G1 is not going to remain the only device forever, especially because the platform is open. Nov 09 17:09:30 err, right, open handset hardware stacks, I should have said Nov 09 17:10:22 tauno, do you get that google doesn't make the hardware? and they don't run the cell networks? they just make the OS? Nov 09 17:10:34 tauno, your local cell providers can bring android to your region at any time Nov 09 17:10:49 Have 'em give Andy Rubin a call! Nov 09 17:10:53 languish, I made an impression that I don't get it? sry.. I totally know this.. Nov 09 17:11:09 tauno, so your point is? Nov 09 17:11:43 You're pointing fingers at google for not bringing HTC's hardware and t-mobiles branded device, to your region? Nov 09 17:11:53 languish, that Android as a OS should not implement changes that some random mobile network operator in the USA/UK wants :P Nov 09 17:12:01 languish, no Nov 09 17:12:18 And of course hackers will reverse engineer their existing phones and gain complete control over everything, given time. It's just ironic at this point that an HTC Windows Mobile device + Haret gives you more control over the Android image you run, at this point, than does the G1 Nov 09 17:12:28 tauno, I agree, they shouldn't have. But their overriding goals urged them to anyway. Nov 09 17:12:39 Large corps do not have a morality Nov 09 17:13:06 they only have a responsibility to shareholders, profit, the bottom line, and not getting busted for illegal activity Nov 09 17:13:16 and only then, then it doesn't hurt the bottom line Nov 09 17:13:57 languish : Ah, but corporattions, particularly Google, do have the ability to think long-term and strategically when they must. Nov 09 17:13:57 I disagree with them supporting the release of a handset to the public at retail, that is unfinished. Nov 09 17:14:16 Limited bluetooth profiles.. and insufficient testing Nov 09 17:14:23 and that crappy ass camera Nov 09 17:14:39 I realize the public is beta testing it Nov 09 17:14:40 I blame Qualcomm for the camera, but in theory I'm the guy responsible for the testing. Nov 09 17:14:41 languish, whoa.. nice.. you got my point :) the whole whining part is about Google being a "we want money" company vs a "we do something to make the world better and we don't care about the money that it will bring" Nov 09 17:14:44 * ahaberlacho wonders if he's talking too much. Nov 09 17:15:01 If you think what you have now is Beta, you should've seen it a few months ago. :) Nov 09 17:15:03 tauno yep everyone gets your point, just not why you keep harping on it, when everyone gets it Nov 09 17:15:08 :| Nov 09 17:15:15 but Nov 09 17:15:21 yea.. I'll shut up Nov 09 17:15:25 I don't get the "compare the size of google to t-mobile" comment. isn't google bigger? google $105B market cap, deutsche telekom $65B Nov 09 17:15:26 it doesn't change anything anyway Nov 09 17:15:33 I do think they are making the world a better place, they're just taking the sleazy road to it Nov 09 17:16:05 I disagree with the ends justify the means Nov 09 17:16:13 which is how google's proceeding Nov 09 17:16:22 Only one question for Google really.... why wasn't Android entirely developed in the open as an Open Source project? It seems like we'd be a lot farther along by now.. Nov 09 17:16:41 I'm not convinced that you understand the "ends" in this particular situation. Nov 09 17:16:46 NetShadow: It requires extra administrative work to accept patches, especially for things like security review. Nov 09 17:16:48 NetShadow, you wouldn't. Google obviously needed telecom and telecom hardware partners Nov 09 17:17:08 NetShadow: similar efforts in the past show that you're wrong Nov 09 17:17:16 NetShadow : Because too many chefs spoil the broth. Nov 09 17:17:21 NetShadow: And they needed to ship it on the G1 by a certain date. That wouldn't have happened if everyone was feeding them patches to fix their favorite bugs and they were accepting them all. Nov 09 17:17:21 languish: so your point is that these partners won't join an OSS project? Nov 09 17:17:34 NetShadow, has HTC open sourced their bootloader? Nov 09 17:17:49 languish: Has your computer manufacturer open-sourced their BIOS? Nov 09 17:18:05 NetShadow, look at the issues with the 3-D drivers for the htc kaiser Nov 09 17:18:14 Also, we looked at things like LiMo and OpenMoko and said "Hey, do we need another open source project that takes forever to get nowhere?" Nov 09 17:18:33 languish: good point, but pressure from Google might have changed things, if openness was really the goal Nov 09 17:18:34 ttuttle, my computer doesn't need to run on a cellular network :) Nov 09 17:18:55 languish: Yeah, but my point is the HTC bootloader is about as relevant to running an open-source OS as your computer's BIOS is. Nov 09 17:18:59 languish : And oddly enough, with the addition of a GPRS radio, it can! Nov 09 17:19:00 a cellular network controlled by rententive management Nov 09 17:19:15 s/rententive/retentive/; Nov 09 17:19:21 Also you're missing a word :- Nov 09 17:19:23 * :-) Nov 09 17:19:27 NetShadow: A product that is so intensively focused on end users need to be directed by a simple entity with uncompromising focus on user interface and QA. Which open source projects suck at. Nov 09 17:19:30 yes ok, the bootloader was a bad example :0 Nov 09 17:19:50 ttuttle, yes, I certainly was :D Nov 09 17:20:10 cbeust_: Are there no good Linux distros? Nov 09 17:20:14 * ttuttle loves how Google & co. make a phone that's (let's say) 90% open source, as opposed to the usual 0%, and everyone complains about the remaining 10%. Nov 09 17:20:31 NetShadow: They all have pros and cons, but we're not talking distros here, we're talking user interface and usability Nov 09 17:21:08 ttuttle, the reason for that is.. Google happily let slip how "open" Android would be, allowing public misconceptions to propagate Nov 09 17:21:09 actually I installed the eclipse plugin only, does this mean I do not have an emulator? Nov 09 17:21:19 Also, I installed my first linux distro 12 years ago. It took a lot of time and effort for Linux to get where it is. :) Nov 09 17:21:37 ttuttle, asumptions were made publically that the device android was on would be open, and Google took their time in denying it Nov 09 17:21:38 languish: The only closed bits, AFAIK, are the G1-specific bits that hardware manufacturers won't allow them to share, and their own apps running on the platform. Nov 09 17:21:39 ttuttle: I hope you don't think I'm complaining about what we were given. It's great. Just pointing out that we're not at the point where even google thinks all this can be done in the open. Nov 09 17:21:44 Anybody has a suggestion for a fast way to parse long strings into tokens? Using the string tokenizer and string split is awfully slow!!! Nov 09 17:21:53 languish : Once again, Android is open. Almost totally. You can go get the source today. The G-1, not entirely so. Future phones maybe more (and maybe less!) Nov 09 17:22:08 NetShadow: Of course it can't be done all in the open. They want to guide where it goes. Nov 09 17:22:11 ttuttle, android is the OS. No root on the OS (or at least not intentionally) that's closed. Nov 09 17:22:21 ahaberlacho: Sprint apparently want to make theirs LESS open! Nov 09 17:22:28 but then, open and closed are a matter of definition and perception Nov 09 17:22:28 languish: No, that's tivoized. Nov 09 17:22:31 languish: without that, the G1 and Android would not exist. Nov 09 17:22:42 MikHel : And thanks to the power of the free market and Apache licensing, they can! Nov 09 17:22:53 cbeust_, I know :) I'm not arguing that at all. Necessary evil and all. Nov 09 17:22:56 However Nov 09 17:22:58 languish: Open-source doesn't mean "lets the user do whatever they want", it means "Lets the user see, copy, and modify the source code." Nov 09 17:23:07 I disagree with the concept of necessary evil. Nov 09 17:23:28 languish: So, if you make a totally open phone, most users will get pwned by viruses and spyware. Nov 09 17:23:37 ttuttle, I know :) and I make some money supporting OSS Nov 09 17:23:41 Ok, my wife wants me to clean the porch, so I have to handle a priority interrupt. Laters, ya'll. I'll catch up on this discussion when it loops around again. Nov 09 17:23:49 languish: Can you point to an OS where the user has full control that doesn't get hijacked? Even Linux gets SSH worms. Nov 09 17:23:53 ahaberlacho: see ya Nov 09 17:24:02 l8r ahaberlacho Nov 09 17:24:39 languish: It's just not acceptable to companies like T-Mobile to have a phone where, say, rogue apps can flood 911 call centers with bogus calls, or DDoS random websites. Nov 09 17:24:40 ttuttle: totally disagree re: viruses and spyware. counter-example, Linux distro's Nov 09 17:24:56 ttuttle, I agree the average user needs to be protected from themselves. However, the more technically apt users should not be completely left out of the equation. Nov 09 17:25:04 NetShadow: WRONG. Nov 09 17:25:12 cybereagle: makin' money -- now is the time to hook up with a hardware vendor (possibly HTC) to purchase devices under your own terms (locked, unlocked, whatever), bundle them with whatever tools/services people will want/need for development, and then sell them at a profit Nov 09 17:25:29 NetShadow: There are ssh worms that will bruteforce passwords. If you have a crummy password, they will break in to your account and start sshing to other computers, doing the same thing. Nov 09 17:25:33 Err, that wasn't to cybereagle that was to languish. Nov 09 17:25:49 languish: Sure, but then suppose there is a sequence of steps to grant an app root privileges. Nov 09 17:25:55 But anyway, there's lots of money to be made, and I'm pretty sure most of it doesn't entail spending Sunday morning bitching about lack of root on #android. :) Nov 09 17:26:00 * ahaberlacho really runs away. Nov 09 17:26:02 ahaberlacho, I'm working on that with whitespace development :) Nov 09 17:26:10 ttuttle: sure, that's a problem with any computer (and all phones are computers). but I don't think most users are going to start up sshd's on their phones, even if it's easy to do. Nov 09 17:26:20 languish: The only people who will be smart enough NOT to do them just 'cause the app says to are the users who already know what "root" means. Nov 09 17:26:34 languish: The rest of the users will just blindly follow directions that an app provides. Nov 09 17:26:46 ttuttle, that's happened anyway :| Nov 09 17:27:00 And it would have over time Nov 09 17:27:01 languish: I mean, you've seen those studies about browser confirmation dialogs, right? Users will click "Yes" on *anything* to get their free porn/games/iPods/whatever. Nov 09 17:27:08 yep Nov 09 17:27:11 Well aware of it. Nov 09 17:27:16 languish: Well, that was a bug, and the n00bs will get their phones patched automatically. Nov 09 17:27:34 languish: So it's not surprising that there's no (intentional) way to get root on the G1. Nov 09 17:28:20 ttuttle, the way I believe it should have been handled, would have been for a unique code per phone to be required to enable root access functionality through settings Nov 09 17:28:20 languish: I mean, believe me, I'd like it if production builds had an allow-root switch somewhere, but it'll get abused. Nov 09 17:28:44 languish: How does that limit who can get it? Do you give people a quiz before you give them the code? Nov 09 17:28:50 So devs and advanced users could go, sign up, and get their unique code back. Nov 09 17:29:02 average users would mostly be too lazy to go that far Nov 09 17:29:06 languish: I mean, all it takes is some clever app to say "Gee, we're overriding some really cool stuff, so you need to enable root on your phone. Go here and do this." Nov 09 17:29:10 languish: Meh, I guess. Nov 09 17:29:18 languish: I just never underestimate the stupidity of average phone users. Nov 09 17:29:28 or the public in general Nov 09 17:29:29 *sigh* Nov 09 17:29:44 look at all the people downloading the hacked RC30 blindly Nov 09 17:29:45 languish: yeah. Nov 09 17:30:13 just to "keep" root Nov 09 17:30:43 I told my wife to let her phone update normally Nov 09 17:30:54 I can mess with my own all I want Nov 09 17:30:54 languish: Good. Nov 09 17:31:08 but she needs a device that'll "just work" Nov 09 17:31:24 which till now, the G1 hasn't exactly been *sigh again* Nov 09 17:31:39 :P Nov 09 17:32:34 Hopefully google finds their way to their own national wireless network that's connected at a minimum expense to the public phone exchange Nov 09 17:33:20 Right now all I see is google moving in to whitespace networking Nov 09 17:34:11 though I'm interested to see if it'll be as a national thing with cellular style antennas (or something similar) or some form of public grid cloud Nov 09 17:34:38 which has been tried before and failed Nov 09 17:35:17 though we wouldn't have had to deal with cell carriers anymore if it had worked Nov 09 17:35:21 :/ Nov 09 17:35:45 ok I rant on alone now. gonna go grab lunch Nov 09 17:36:01 * mikez5 just logged in - missed your rant Nov 09 17:36:12 it's a rant.. be glad :) Nov 09 17:36:22 mikez5: morning! Nov 09 17:36:33 ttuttle: what timezone you in today? Nov 09 17:36:35 mikez5: Wait, it's noon on a Sunday. Don't you have anywhere else to be? :-P Nov 09 17:36:43 mikez5: Same one, but it's still logical morning. I woke up about an hour ago. Nov 09 17:36:56 yeah, I need to put away the groceries. Nov 09 17:36:59 ttuttle, my wife's been sleeping with her head on my leg, so no. Nov 09 17:37:08 oh him. Nov 09 17:37:09 right Nov 09 17:37:10 lala Nov 09 17:37:13 languish: Awwwww. Nov 09 17:37:13 food. o/ Nov 09 17:37:53 * mikez5 read about debian on G1 on my G1 while waiting in line at the grocery checkout. Nov 09 17:41:52 mikez5: oh, Debian? Nov 09 17:42:56 http://androidcommunity.com/jay-freeman-successfully-ports-debian-for-android-20081109/ Nov 09 17:43:18 * mikez5 waits for debian. It would be fun to bootstrap on a phone. Nov 09 17:43:28 Oops, I meant gentoo. Nov 09 17:44:25 mikez5, crappy linking? Nov 09 17:44:26 lol Nov 09 17:52:59 believe it when i see screenshots Nov 09 17:54:09 i think you're confusing fun with something else D: Nov 09 17:59:25 hm - does the G1 come with a microSD card? Nov 09 17:59:45 eggy: yes, a 1 gig Nov 09 18:00:23 ah :-) Nov 09 18:00:49 unless you're in the .uk, then a 2Gb card Nov 09 18:11:39 is jesusfreke here (with a different nick)?? Nov 09 18:43:34 added JesusFreke's modded RC30 to the wiki with instructions: http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keeping_Root Nov 09 18:57:42 for the record.. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2879714&postcount=15 is exactly why tmob isn't going to do tons of ota updates.. (and why its unlikely that patches for non-critical problems will come on any sort of regular basis.) yes, it hasn't been shown yet to be the case, but .. Nov 09 18:59:14 except that it's on a phone the guy messed up with Nov 09 19:01:46 the guy reset the root password, I guess the update needs to run a script as root or something...and can't Nov 09 19:02:02 Disconnect and romainguy_ some ppl reported problems with the rc30 patch version without any prior tweaking Nov 09 19:02:07 That's bogus. Nov 09 19:02:10 ouch Nov 09 19:02:14 recovery doesn't need to know the root password to the main system. Nov 09 19:02:22 * languish resists the urge to reply to sherlok woth 'no shit.." Nov 09 19:02:23 they probably think that is what he is experiencing Nov 09 19:02:26 :D Nov 09 19:02:48 its funny how they say "yeah, we heard about that happening" basically Nov 09 19:04:07 thats what i was saying earlier. you are basically gonna brick a few devices every time. Nov 09 19:04:48 its not responsible for them to do frequent updates Nov 09 19:05:13 yeah Nov 09 19:05:16 Disconnect: Either that, or they need to do them in such a way that devices aren't bricked ;-) Nov 09 19:05:22 lol ttuttle Nov 09 19:05:24 i agree! Nov 09 19:05:40 i will say its pretty hard to brick these things Nov 09 19:05:46 with the recovery partition and all Nov 09 19:06:22 I agree that bricking is a possibility Nov 09 19:06:30 but it's very hard in my experience Nov 09 19:06:45 in 18 months of flashing devices several times a day, I never bricked one Nov 09 19:06:50 I was at a local tmo store where this guy was telling the girl at the counter his phone was "broked" so she said "do you mean bricked?" so he told her no, he didn't hit it with a brick, he wasn't that mad yet. Nov 09 19:06:56 and I've done some serious shit to the devices (like pulling the battery during a flash :) Nov 09 19:07:24 romainguy_: yah but thats different from flashing 300,000 remote devices in 300,000 different states :) Nov 09 19:07:53 actually we have way less states on these remote devices than on our internal ones :) Nov 09 19:08:00 the evidence is out there in the fact that a few phones - modified and unmodified - have been bricked :) Nov 09 19:09:18 romainguy_, id have to say for all the hacking that is happening, these devices are surprisingly resilient Nov 09 19:09:20 but anyway i'm gonna light up jesusfreke's rc30. even with the better-calibrated battery i got fscked over yesterday. 45 minutes of charging (well, 3g+gps charging but still) and then turned off gps, it died within 30 mins :( Nov 09 19:10:01 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300270611178&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:DE:1123 <- And again. I think that I will import more than one G1 from the US. :) Buying for 500$ (duty included) and selling for more than 1000$ sounds nice. Nov 09 19:13:20 hi, is this cool locking mechanism safe enough? Do i have to use any encrypted sdcard or something like that in order to keep whatever is on my telephone private? Nov 09 19:13:48 safe enough from what? Nov 09 19:14:15 thieves who may stole the hardware from me Nov 09 19:14:16 the government Nov 09 19:14:22 its by no means a secure device in that sense. hw access (to take out the sd card, or open it and read the flash) will get your data. Nov 09 19:14:24 they want what you have! Nov 09 19:14:26 wrap it in tin foil Nov 09 19:14:28 government is already in there I know that Nov 09 19:14:44 but they'll just pull the info out of your head Nov 09 19:14:48 hey my gf and i are picking out aniversary gifts Nov 09 19:14:52 is this what i need? Nov 09 19:14:53 http://cgi.ebay.com/Sandisk-16GB-Micro-SD-MicroSD-Memory-Card-16-GB-NEW-16G_W0QQitemZ190265069978QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Camera_Memory_Cards?hash=item190265069978&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A15|39%3A1|240%3A1318 Nov 09 19:15:09 and i thought i was a geek Nov 09 19:15:16 * geist was thinking the same Nov 09 19:15:21 Disconnect, can I make it safer, so that the web site passwords etc may not be reached even if the hardware is stolen? Nov 09 19:15:28 asking for a micro sd card for your anniversary is probably not a smooth move Nov 09 19:15:40 why Nov 09 19:15:55 no no its not for my gf Nov 09 19:15:57 its for me Nov 09 19:16:00 she wants the wii fit Nov 09 19:16:08 it screams "all i want is geek toys" Nov 09 19:16:17 although it might be true Nov 09 19:16:24 girls think about that crap Nov 09 19:16:27 well it would be this or gauges for my car Nov 09 19:16:40 or maybe some ram for my laptop Nov 09 19:17:34 but is that the card i need for my g1? Nov 09 19:17:57 looks like it Nov 09 19:17:58 it says transflash? Nov 09 19:18:04 yes, microsd Nov 09 19:18:46 ok Nov 09 19:18:51 thanks Nov 09 19:19:07 any progress on running apps from it? Nov 09 19:19:29 Disconnect, does the locking mechanism safe at least to protect the non micro sd part of the hard disk space? Nov 09 19:19:54 Disconnect, i think browser is keeping stuff outside of cdcard anyways Nov 09 19:19:54 not if you have physical access to it Nov 09 19:20:11 no phone does. not even most devices are secure (including encrypted hdds and such) if you have physical access. Nov 09 19:20:18 Disconnect, so the locking mechanism does not encrypt Nov 09 19:20:25 oh Nov 09 19:20:38 What locking mechanism? Nov 09 19:20:52 Disconnect, I know that anything can be broken into however i thought encrypted ddisks were safe enough Nov 09 19:20:53 ttuttle: i think he means the device lock Nov 09 19:21:00 Oh. Nov 09 19:21:08 That doesn't keep any data safe. Nov 09 19:21:11 ttuttle, that cute locking unlocking mechanism Nov 09 19:21:22 Oh, that's just a screen lock. No encryption or anything. It'd be dumb. Nov 09 19:21:41 ttuttle, it'd be dump to have encryption? why? Nov 09 19:21:42 fyi i hate the fact that the sim lock fires when you go in and out of airplane mode and it doesn't have a "on sim change" option (so it fires every time or never. not as useful.) Nov 09 19:22:40 I have a question... since we have root access with RC29 and lower... I believe the updates will only work with signed updates... but can hey change the bootloader to not allow RC29 and previous releases with the root shell? Anotherwords, in future updates, can they disallow allowing us to do a manual update to RC29? Nov 09 19:22:45 orci_: It's not a long enough password. Nov 09 19:23:19 orci_: The encryption key is going to have to be encrypted itself by the unlock code, and the unlock code is a maximum of 9! = 362800 codes. Nov 09 19:23:24 orci_: That's trivial to bruteforce. Nov 09 19:23:40 orci_: They'd need to give it a real password lock, with long passwords, to make encryption worthwhile. Nov 09 19:23:52 ttuttle, I think we could give the option of chosing longer passwords? Nov 09 19:24:34 orci_: Me too. Nov 09 19:24:44 orci_: But with just the doodle-lock, there's no point in encryption. Nov 09 19:24:46 it's not 9! btw Nov 09 19:24:52 ttuttle: its not 9! either Nov 09 19:24:52 heh Nov 09 19:24:58 spikebike: Oh, okay, it's a little bigger. Nov 09 19:25:02 no its smaller Nov 09 19:25:08 no, smaller Nov 09 19:25:09 Why? Nov 09 19:25:15 try to select 1,3 without 2 Nov 09 19:25:16 You can wiggle your way between them. Nov 09 19:25:18 MystSparks_, when you apply the custom bootloader (actually its hte recovery) you have to edit your updates before applying them. when you edit it, you replace their recovery with yours again ensuring you always have a hacked one Nov 09 19:25:25 look at it as a numeric keypad. you can't go 139 Nov 09 19:25:26 try it Nov 09 19:25:34 Oh, you're right. Nov 09 19:25:37 So it's even worse. Nov 09 19:25:44 yep Nov 09 19:26:03 [17:59:24] Anyway, to come back to another discussion: has anyone built a "kill app" that would make me or anyone want root access on their phone? Or is it still just theoreetical? Nov 09 19:26:09 there is an app called splashID passwrod, i do not know if worths trying Nov 09 19:26:10 ask Chainfire, he wants to port WMWifiRouter Nov 09 19:26:19 orci_, its a phone, they are not safe Nov 09 19:26:19 dont expect full blown apps in 2 days :) Nov 09 19:26:20 so no 1,3, no 3,6, no 7,9 Nov 09 19:26:22 plus you can be fairly certain most users select a complete set, so you know its 9 long Nov 09 19:26:33 no 1 7, 2 8 or 3 9 Nov 09 19:26:55 spikebike: sorta. 213 works but 132 doesn't. Nov 09 19:27:38 there's some hard one Nov 09 19:27:40 s Nov 09 19:27:49 7 -> 2 -> 9 Nov 09 19:27:55 DarkriftX, even if there was some encryption, that would save from most stupid thieves Nov 09 19:28:21 disk encryption only helps if the machine is off Nov 09 19:28:26 (on a desktop/laptop) Nov 09 19:28:32 darkhorse, pareto principle :) Nov 09 19:28:42 ? Nov 09 19:28:56 orci_, you want security? get a gun and a good phone case Nov 09 19:29:06 and dont let your wife use your phone Nov 09 19:29:12 So basically, Darkriftx, you're saying we have to apply our own update to ensure their recovery won't disallow root in the future.. makes sense. Nov 09 19:29:18 yes Nov 09 19:29:27 each update from now on will have to be downloaded and edited Nov 09 19:29:34 that was a sexist joke Nov 09 19:30:06 replace the recovery.img inside the file with a new one, and edit the script to install on yoru device (and of course edit whatever tmo is doing to take away your root access) then flash that Nov 09 19:30:11 no, it wasnt a joke Nov 09 19:30:21 my wife used my phone and took it to target and left it in the cart Nov 09 19:30:26 doh! Nov 09 19:30:26 i am no longer the owner of that phone Nov 09 19:30:33 lol Nov 09 19:30:33 g1? Nov 09 19:30:41 no, wizard Nov 09 19:30:47 and tmo bent me over about that one Nov 09 19:30:47 ah, no loss then ;-) Nov 09 19:30:59 does tmo insurance cover that kind of thing? Nov 09 19:31:09 those that let their upate go to R30, won't have any way to go back to an old version once they install it then... (without another exploit anyway)? Nov 09 19:31:14 told me i had 3 days to buy a new phone that was compatible with that plan (another wizard basically) or they were canceling my service and charging me $250 Nov 09 19:31:21 myst correct Nov 09 19:31:26 thanks Nov 09 19:31:31 spikebike, i bought 3rd party so no ins Nov 09 19:31:43 doh Nov 09 19:31:59 they told me i could not "disrupt" my service without the $250 fee (i wanted 2 weeks to get a new phone from ebay) Nov 09 19:32:02 so as soon as I find a phone I'd rather have than a g1 I should cancel insurance Nov 09 19:32:27 so i could either leave it on, and let the theives use it, shut it off and pay $250 or buy another wizard from them for $450 Nov 09 19:32:32 i told em to fuck off Nov 09 19:34:28 Hrm, maybe a lojack program should lock th ephone and offer $30 for return Nov 09 19:34:55 and of course be installed in the recovery partition as well Nov 09 19:35:17 spikebike: You can't install programs in the recovery partition. Nov 09 19:35:23 spikebike: installing to recovery partition wouldn't be "secure" enough for google. Nov 09 19:35:35 like backing up your data. Nov 09 19:35:50 er Nov 09 19:36:02 the recovery partition can reinstall the main partition, right? Nov 09 19:36:26 or is it just enough to load from sdcard? Nov 09 19:37:44 orci_, google for pinpoint, if the author ever released it it lets you track your phone if it gets stolen Nov 09 19:37:55 and of course get a gun to confront them with Nov 09 19:37:56 yeah it's out there Nov 09 19:38:05 its released. but it doesn't work great. Nov 09 19:38:05 say locate and a pin Nov 09 19:38:13 oh Nov 09 19:38:16 its a great idea Nov 09 19:38:25 the author said he might not release it though Nov 09 19:38:30 so i wasnt sure Nov 09 19:38:42 good for "i wonder if i left my phone at home" not so good for "i stole this phone adn left it turned on and left it unlocked and left it gps enabled and its outside somewhere, very still so it can get a fix"... Nov 09 19:38:55 oh and on the original sim, etc Nov 09 19:39:04 and i didn't do a factory wipe Nov 09 19:39:06 it can turn on gps I think Nov 09 19:39:12 I still think there must be encryption on the sdcard as well as the main memory/hdd Nov 09 19:39:20 it can't toggle it on blindly, thats not 'secure' :) Nov 09 19:39:20 most ppl who steal a phone wont htink to do all that at first Nov 09 19:39:31 orci_, never going to happen Nov 09 19:39:45 DarkriftX: most people who steal phones immediately pull the sim. phone is expensive, sim is worthless. Nov 09 19:39:50 DarkriftX, is it too expensive in cpu time or something? Nov 09 19:40:12 im sure there is that also Nov 09 19:40:31 DarkriftX, because you just think that it would be useless Nov 09 19:40:44 no, i have no say over android Nov 09 19:40:52 but ive seen hundreds of pda phones over the years Nov 09 19:40:57 none have a real encryption method Nov 09 19:41:05 no I was questionning the rationale behind that it ould never happen Nov 09 19:41:15 that was my rationale Nov 09 19:41:19 so you really want something that detects the sim/number change and then locks GPS on and reports it's position regularly Nov 09 19:41:26 maybe reports call logs as well Nov 09 19:41:27 if it were going to happen, im sure it would have Nov 09 19:42:04 spikebike, just like screenlock, it would lock the whole system each time after some idle time Nov 09 19:42:07 spikebike: most smartphones i've had in the past could do a sim lock/phone lock on sim change. Nov 09 19:42:38 spikebike, or at least important data such as website passwords, phone book, etc. Nov 09 19:43:02 i would not like somebody looking at my pictures as well Nov 09 19:43:07 maybe implement a bb-style wipe on pass failure Nov 09 19:44:28 and orci_ im almost sure that encrypted fs is not built into this so that would mean more then just a program installed. would mean a completely new os being built to enable it Nov 09 19:46:31 DarkriftX, i would say that this is required, lots of information about me is on that phone Nov 09 19:46:43 I think that is very important for everybody Nov 09 19:46:55 im not trying to argue, but look at it this way Nov 09 19:47:06 lots of ppl want security and it still has not been done Nov 09 19:47:08 that has to tell you soemthing Nov 09 19:47:46 DarkriftX, I think we are not at zero point. I perfectly understand that no lock is safe, however any lock is increasing your security Nov 09 19:48:17 I think we can develop an optimum security level Nov 09 19:49:01 Hello all Nov 09 19:49:07 I have basic questions about the android OS Nov 09 19:49:14 Is this a good place to ask such questions? Nov 09 19:50:04 probably the best place Nov 09 19:51:21 Ok Basic question: Nov 09 19:51:31 Is Android only an application or does it include radio source code? Nov 09 19:51:42 for example: radio source code for GSM/UMTS etc? Nov 09 19:51:50 no, does not Nov 09 19:51:53 I tried downloading the android source code kit and could find only java files Nov 09 19:52:15 radio implementations vary between vendors Nov 09 19:52:19 So android is only java software that works for particular hardware platforms Nov 09 19:52:28 There are lots of c core libraries. They are in the external folder. Nov 09 19:52:32 android is the OS that runs on the application processor Nov 09 19:52:41 there is usually a secondary processor that runs the radio stack Nov 09 19:52:43 So Android = NO RADIO Nov 09 19:52:56 where might I find information on how to format videos to play on Android? Nov 09 19:52:58 that is correct Nov 09 19:53:03 Laser why do you care? Nov 09 19:53:05 Thanks Geist Nov 09 19:53:08 ask or blame qualcomm Nov 09 19:53:13 (if you mean the G1, that is.) Nov 09 19:53:13 OK I am basically a radio guy Nov 09 19:53:18 blame Nov 09 19:53:21 Was seeing if I could contribute to the radio part of it Nov 09 19:53:23 radio stacks are incredibly complicated, each vendor has their own Nov 09 19:53:48 Yup Nov 09 19:53:48 usually it's an rtos + the stack Nov 09 19:54:00 I couldnt agree less with you geist Nov 09 19:54:03 msm solutions are stranger than that Nov 09 19:54:04 what kind of contributions ? Nov 09 19:54:05 Radio stacks are very complicated Nov 09 19:54:07 Laser, the g1 radio img is available in the ota updates Nov 09 19:54:19 uh... okay Nov 09 19:54:20 G1 radio? Nov 09 19:54:22 yes Nov 09 19:54:24 Can you please define. Nov 09 19:54:32 I am quite a novice to android Nov 09 19:54:32 qualcomm radio, to be precise Nov 09 19:54:34 OTA = over the air (google sends out updates) Nov 09 19:54:42 OK I get what OTA is Nov 09 19:54:49 sure, the OTA has a binary update of the radio Nov 09 19:54:50 these updates have a radio.img in them Nov 09 19:54:57 does not mean that android did it Nov 09 19:55:04 Oh OK Nov 09 19:55:14 not sure if that will help you ot not Nov 09 19:55:21 Laser: it is pretty much like any WM HTC MSM72xx radio Nov 09 19:55:21 s/ot/or/ Nov 09 19:55:21 DarkriftX meant: nor sure if that will help you ot not Nov 09 19:55:24 so G1 radio is included as a part of android and in actuality G1 radio has been developed by Qualcomm Nov 09 19:55:26 where might I find information on how to format videos to play on Android? Nov 09 19:55:33 correct Nov 09 19:55:54 After_Math, check the website for the video player application that you use Nov 09 19:55:55 the chip in the G1 is a shared die radio + app processor Nov 09 19:56:05 orci_, k Nov 09 19:56:06 After_Math: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=441063 Nov 09 19:56:20 scootley, thanks Nov 09 19:56:23 but of course qualcomm is not giving out the datasheets Nov 09 19:56:29 of course Nov 09 19:56:29 for this chipset Nov 09 19:56:31 :@ Nov 09 19:56:33 After_Math, as far as I know android does not have a default video format or something like that, it can play anything as long as there is a player Nov 09 19:56:44 cmonex: dont worry, it's a nightmare anyway Nov 09 19:56:46 So users need to pay the royalty $ to qualcomm Nov 09 19:56:49 ? Nov 09 19:56:50 the data sheets dont help that much Nov 09 19:56:57 geist -> oh, why? Nov 09 19:56:59 orci_, I have a player, just not sure how to encode it Nov 09 19:57:05 cmonex: because it's a nightmare Nov 09 19:57:12 okay but how is it a nightmare Nov 09 19:57:13 If someone has to use the android software, they need to pay $ to Qualcomm? Nov 09 19:57:15 After_Math, which player is that Nov 09 19:57:19 i dont work for android, but i work with essentially the same chip elsewhere Nov 09 19:57:29 because it's a terrible terrible design Nov 09 19:57:31 orci_, one sec Nov 09 19:57:32 haha Nov 09 19:57:35 full of bugs, badly documented Nov 09 19:57:40 bummer Nov 09 19:57:42 whats the app core? Nov 09 19:57:43 bugs? I bet Nov 09 19:57:56 and the app processor is a slave to the radio, so you dont have a lot of control over low level details Nov 09 19:58:03 you end up having to send the radio a ton of rpcs Nov 09 19:58:09 So Android = G1 radio (from Qualcomm) + application stack Nov 09 19:58:11 yes I know it is the slave Nov 09 19:58:11 and you're at the mercy of whatever radio build is on there Nov 09 19:58:12 orci_, Video Player Nov 09 19:58:14 would that definition be correct Nov 09 19:58:16 wow Nov 09 19:58:21 weird Nov 09 19:58:24 I don't like that design Nov 09 19:58:29 yeah Nov 09 19:58:29 it's actually a testamont to how great the android team is Nov 09 19:58:35 they actually got it working Nov 09 19:58:38 hah Nov 09 19:58:40 Laser: thats the g1, android is a phone application stack Nov 09 19:58:49 heh WM is great too then. :) Nov 09 19:58:52 Disconnect - thanks Nov 09 19:58:55 but.. Nov 09 19:59:09 not necessarily that particular radio or arch. (and in fact, its been ported to the moko and n810 and such already. n810 doesn't have a phone radio at all..) Nov 09 19:59:18 So when you see the HTC, what radio stack is HTC using inside to get the android phone working? Nov 09 19:59:26 For Video Player just use the converters for iPods, and use the iPod Touch settings Nov 09 19:59:29 this whole conversation is dumb sounding. Nov 09 19:59:31 You want H.264 video Nov 09 19:59:35 these MSM based devices, all seem full of bugs, unlike the previous HTC devices Nov 09 19:59:38 right, presumably android running on another fone with another radio stack would need some modifications to talk to the other radio stack, but otherwise would just be the apps stuff Nov 09 19:59:49 laser, what do you mean? Nov 09 19:59:59 Geist - I got the answer Nov 09 20:00:00 Laser: the QC radio Nov 09 20:00:03 hey do you guys know if its possible to wake on an incoming packet from a certain port Nov 09 20:00:16 QC has a radio stack they put on their core Nov 09 20:00:24 stelleg: Not really. Nov 09 20:00:25 Geist - thanks mate. Nov 09 20:00:27 it's whatever they want to call it. AMSS I believe is the main component Nov 09 20:00:32 thanks wasabi Nov 09 20:00:34 stelleg: Not without a router sending WOL events. Nov 09 20:00:37 hmm. lots of reboots in rc30 Nov 09 20:00:40 Cmonex - I am just trying to understand the whole concept of android Nov 09 20:00:45 IIRC, it's an L4 kernel + a bunch of services Nov 09 20:00:53 Cmonex - Geist has clarified my doubts about android Nov 09 20:01:06 Laser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y4thikv-OM Nov 09 20:01:13 awww, clarified doubts Nov 09 20:01:18 I still only have RC19. should I be concerned yet? Nov 09 20:01:25 geist: clarified doubts are awesome with crab legs Nov 09 20:01:25 wasabi: thanks I'll look into that Nov 09 20:01:29 Geist - Well I knew pretty much nothing about android :) Nov 09 20:01:35 what doubts Laser? Nov 09 20:01:37 incandenza: if i were you i'd do manual updates to rc29 and then the patched rc30 Nov 09 20:01:38 Disconnect - thanks Nov 09 20:01:49 L4 kernel? Nov 09 20:01:50 do you have doubts or are you just using the wrong word? Nov 09 20:01:50 cmonex - what a solution the android actually is? Nov 09 20:01:56 how do you mean, Laser? Nov 09 20:02:12 wasabi: any idea how sipphones wake from sleep on incoming calls? Nov 09 20:02:13 Laser: The RIL is the radio abstraction, that's the part that you'd need to replace to talk to another vendor's radio Nov 09 20:02:21 right Nov 09 20:02:26 stelleg: Never seen a sip phone sleep. Nov 09 20:02:35 jham_ and all the other guys - I now understand the stuff about Android Nov 09 20:02:43 I used to think that radio stacks are quite complicated and they are the costly ones Nov 09 20:02:49 they are Nov 09 20:02:53 I thought companies are more than happy to develop their own apps Nov 09 20:03:02 wasabi: strange, thanks Nov 09 20:03:03 the radio is not just an app.. Nov 09 20:03:32 But I think that now companies have a ready made application in java that they can use and integrate the radio stacks from providers to take out phones Nov 09 20:03:33 most smart phones use a two cpu solution to seperate the rado from the apps Nov 09 20:03:44 why would you do your own radio stack if not needed Nov 09 20:03:45 Geist - yes, I am aware of the radio architecture Nov 09 20:04:16 and you usually buy the radio, since it's not really feasible to develop it in house Nov 09 20:04:17 cmonex - with just android, I dont think a company can sell phones. they would need to integrate the android with the radio from another provider. Nov 09 20:04:27 and whats the point? :) Nov 09 20:04:30 yeah, why can't they sell that? Nov 09 20:04:52 they also need to integrate the hardware with android :P Nov 09 20:04:56 yeah Nov 09 20:04:57 drivers Nov 09 20:05:00 Companies like Nokia already have radios. Nokia has symbian too. Why is Nokia trying to invest in Android? Nov 09 20:05:18 Maybe because they think it's better than Symbian. Nov 09 20:05:30 and maybe nokia wont, but there are a lot of other companies out there Nov 09 20:05:35 By radio, I mean - hardware (chipset) + radio protocol stack Nov 09 20:06:19 I keep reading in the blogs that Nokia has formed a team to look at android Nov 09 20:06:28 well wifi is no better on rc30 :/ Nov 09 20:06:39 nope Nov 09 20:06:42 then they have an even easier job than most Nov 09 20:06:50 especially if they develop their own radio stack Nov 09 20:06:58 Disconnect: yeah :( Nov 09 20:07:06 yeah Nokia stacks are pretty stable and they are known world over for their phones Nov 09 20:07:09 hey DarkriftX Nov 09 20:07:17 right, so nokia could do it Nov 09 20:07:24 So the future for mobile application developer companies doesnt look that bright eh! Nov 09 20:07:34 eh? Nov 09 20:07:51 sup Nov 09 20:08:14 ... Nov 09 20:08:17 why would it not look bright? Nov 09 20:08:37 oooh, someone is writing an "editing bootloader" page on my wiki :S Nov 09 20:08:45 What would happen to Symbian if Nokia would want to completely or largely move on to android? Nov 09 20:08:47 Just a thought Nov 09 20:08:55 they'd die. good riddance Nov 09 20:08:57 im trying to install the modified RC30 and Recovery Image, when i type su after adb shell, i dont have root Nov 09 20:09:02 I started using linux over 8 years ago and find an increasing population who will be happy with linux now Nov 09 20:09:05 who cares about symbian? Nov 09 20:09:14 good darkrift i've been looking for 0one of those Nov 09 20:09:16 : ) Nov 09 20:09:18 so Laser, the app devs will just move to android. Nov 09 20:09:21 oyeoj, about 45% of the phone user populatioN? Nov 09 20:09:22 I dont care about symbian Nov 09 20:09:39 systm: lies. they dont even know what their phone runs. Nov 09 20:09:44 oyeoj, lol Nov 09 20:09:44 i was just trying to picture what would be the future say in about 7 years time Nov 09 20:09:57 so why is it not a bright future.. Nov 09 20:10:05 they can dev for android or whatever the hype will be then Nov 09 20:10:22 yeah I think to survive they will have to make a move or open source their own kind of legacy systems Nov 09 20:10:40 DarkriftX, is that something you know about Nov 09 20:10:56 So Java might end up leading the mobile application space. [I pray this happens] Nov 09 20:11:07 systm, i dont actaully have a g1 so i might not be the best help Nov 09 20:11:13 i just collect info :)) Nov 09 20:11:21 it's already leading on non smart phones :) Nov 09 20:11:33 DarkriftX, well, i just thought you got root on adb? Nov 09 20:11:39 In Europe, what is the cheapest price the android might be available for? To see if I can afford one :) Nov 09 20:11:57 Smartphones are the future I believe. Nov 09 20:12:13 i thought children were the future Nov 09 20:12:15 yeah popular smart phones heavily use Java Nov 09 20:12:28 Geist - good one :) :) Nov 09 20:13:01 Well guys, it is getting a bit late for me. Thanks to all of you for being patient enough to help me understand Android Nov 09 20:13:06 sure Nov 09 20:13:07 music has the right to children Nov 09 20:13:09 I neednt have to dig my head into those documents Nov 09 20:13:27 I have to get on to couple of things before the weekend really slips out of my hand Nov 09 20:13:32 Have a nice evening Nov 09 20:13:37 See you folks sometime later Nov 09 20:13:40 bye for now Nov 09 20:13:52 how do i know the IP address to telnet to, when I "telnet into the device"? Nov 09 20:13:55 how do i get root with adb? Nov 09 20:15:54 rreck: netstat on the device Nov 09 20:16:04 thanks Nov 09 20:16:05 or check router Nov 09 20:17:07 I check the dhcp logs Nov 09 20:17:21 till I assigned it an IP anyways Nov 09 20:18:11 spikebike: are you talking to me? Nov 09 20:18:17 lot easier to just click on the wifi AP (in settings) and it'll show it Nov 09 20:18:46 oic i needs to be on your wifi, i thought you could telnet back in through internet Nov 09 20:19:06 you can Nov 09 20:19:17 netstat can tell you locally Nov 09 20:19:17 it aint answering Nov 09 20:19:28 is it running? check with ps Nov 09 20:20:01 most of the time tmob's proxy will NAT so you can't get in from outside Nov 09 20:20:09 how do you reboot in recovery mode on the G1 Nov 09 20:20:13 you aren't on rc30 yet right? Nov 09 20:20:18 systm: hold down home while booting Nov 09 20:20:26 ;) Nov 09 20:21:03 yeah its running and tmob must be filtering Nov 09 20:21:06 thanks for the answers Nov 09 20:21:16 i will have to deal with it hating my wep Nov 09 20:21:54 rreck, netstat Nov 09 20:22:04 yeah, you can't use tmobiles connection because of the nat Nov 09 20:22:07 Damm: erm, lagged? :) Nov 09 20:22:42 Disconnect, slow response Nov 09 20:22:49 :) Nov 09 20:22:51 i guess i can stop telnet without root? i get permission denied when i try to kill it Nov 09 20:22:51 cant i mean Nov 09 20:22:53 yeah, best to use wifi Nov 09 20:23:16 well yeah cause its running as root :P Nov 09 20:23:35 but how did i start it as root though? Nov 09 20:23:46 rreck: hit enter enter kill (whatever) Nov 09 20:23:47 should work Nov 09 20:24:01 and then go read about what it is actually doing in rc19/28/29 Nov 09 20:24:29 * zewm_ is away.. autoaway/10m [lp!on] Nov 09 20:24:39 yeah i read, i was just having brain fart. thanks again Nov 09 20:24:50 rreck: http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=G1_Root_Bug_Explained Nov 09 20:24:57 btw, interesting post http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2877855&postcount=7 Nov 09 20:25:03 he claims he wasnt asked.. Nov 09 20:25:17 cmonex: tmob said there is no 10g cap Nov 09 20:25:24 or step down in service Nov 09 20:25:26 heh and one last thing:[20:07:16] romainguy_, id have to say for all the hacking that is happening, these devices are surprisingly resilient ----> would be more resilient if you could install NBH's from SPL.. Nov 09 20:25:37 lol Nov 09 20:25:41 rreck: cool, then maybe Nov 09 20:25:42 er Nov 09 20:25:51 so, then maybe that was a different package, hmm.. Nov 09 20:25:54 cmonex: are you in the US? Nov 09 20:26:02 no Nov 09 20:26:10 cmonex: i am getting a second opinion Nov 09 20:26:26 but the "unlimited" internet here involves similar things too, so i wasnt surprised when i heard tmobile put the cap at 10GB Nov 09 20:26:41 cmonex: im outside washington DC Nov 09 20:26:45 ok, do get a second opinion and see Nov 09 20:26:48 oh Nov 09 20:27:04 cmonex: exactly im checking with other people in corporate before believing them Nov 09 20:27:06 DarkriftX... dont ya agree :P Nov 09 20:27:11 yes Nov 09 20:27:17 even if you hose both boot.img and recovery.img you coul reinstall them from NBH Nov 09 20:27:19 could* Nov 09 20:27:21 sigh Nov 09 20:27:27 i was commenting on the fact that the recovery makes it a lil safer Nov 09 20:27:39 hm, without it it wouldn't be safe at all :) Nov 09 20:27:45 and not somezhing that can be released Nov 09 20:28:08 anyone know how to add a new link to navigation on mediawiki? Nov 09 20:34:38 for some reason i cannot put the recovery image on the G1 Nov 09 20:35:02 DarkriftX: does this help: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Navigation_bar Nov 09 20:35:12 yeah, found it :) Nov 09 20:35:12 thx Nov 09 20:35:42 DarkriftX, where is your wiki? Nov 09 20:35:45 interesting read Nov 09 20:35:49 android-dls.com/wiki Nov 09 20:37:31 so the debian hack? is that basically adding a boot manager to startup to you can boot android or deb? Nov 09 20:38:47 no; just a debian chroot Nov 09 20:39:33 just installed it. Trying to bring up openvpn. Anybody here built kernel modules for the G1 yet? Nov 09 20:40:35 I assume the git tree from android.git.kernel.org is the place to start. Nov 09 20:41:45 anyone know how to get root with adb? Nov 09 20:43:14 systm, have you installed the custom RC30 Nov 09 20:43:29 oh, nvm, just read above Nov 09 20:43:35 no, im trying to.. i need the recovery on installed first Nov 09 20:43:43 you need to get root through terminal first Nov 09 20:43:55 er.. Nov 09 20:43:56 are you on rc29? Nov 09 20:44:08 si Nov 09 20:44:14 ok, im going to try to help you Nov 09 20:44:22 but i have not done this, so beware now Nov 09 20:44:29 ok :| Nov 09 20:44:30 first, reboot your phone Nov 09 20:45:08 ok. Nov 09 20:45:22 second, as soon as its rebooted, type "telnetd" and hit enter Nov 09 20:45:30 third, on your computer, telnet into your phones IP Nov 09 20:45:56 if it does not connect, try telnetd again and try to reconnect Nov 09 20:46:13 cant i just use pterminal? cd /system/bin , telnetd? Nov 09 20:46:17 I'm doing the same thing right now... trying to get adb working.. instlaling the modified recovery image on a rc29 system Nov 09 20:46:18 you can Nov 09 20:46:20 but its not needed Nov 09 20:46:31 telnetd just made you think it was doing something Nov 09 20:46:39 all it was doing was giving you a box to type in Nov 09 20:46:46 which is not needed Nov 09 20:47:02 everything you type goes to a root terminal already (that is the bug) Nov 09 20:47:12 we just originally thought it had to be done through a terminal Nov 09 20:48:04 its not doing anything. Nov 09 20:48:12 and the root shell doesn't understand modifiers. so cd /system reads as cd .system Nov 09 20:48:14 unable to connect? Nov 09 20:48:21 there we gi Nov 09 20:48:32 ok in shell Nov 09 20:48:37 type id Nov 09 20:48:40 tell me if you are root Nov 09 20:49:00 twa Nov 09 20:49:02 yes* Nov 09 20:49:04 mount -o remount,rw -t yaffs2 /dev/block/mtdblock3 /system Nov 09 20:49:11 that will make your system writeable Nov 09 20:49:38 m Nov 09 20:49:40 kay* Nov 09 20:49:49 then cat /system/bin/sh > /system/bin/su Nov 09 20:50:00 chmod 4755 /system/bin/su Nov 09 20:50:13 that should give you a "su" command that makes you root Nov 09 20:50:18 try running that command from adb Nov 09 20:50:21 you should have root Nov 09 20:50:24 but FIRST Nov 09 20:50:30 you need to rename your certs so you dont get an update Nov 09 20:50:53 mv /system/etc/security/otacerts.zip /system/etc/security/otacerts.zip.nothankyou Nov 09 20:51:34 hold up, the telnet for windows is fail, it cant go back, or anything and its annoying.. Nov 09 20:51:45 yes Nov 09 20:51:54 you have to fix that by running the su or sh commands Nov 09 20:53:17 GAH! Nov 09 20:53:20 best imap client? Nov 09 20:54:11 ok.. got it Nov 09 20:54:53 ok Nov 09 20:54:57 did you rename the certs? Nov 09 20:55:15 if so, you are good to install the modified recovery now per instructions Nov 09 20:55:28 ok.. Nov 09 20:55:50 if its already in /system, could i just reboot with home and see Nov 09 20:55:57 is it? Nov 09 20:56:00 yea Nov 09 20:56:03 thats the default one Nov 09 20:56:14 did you put the modified one on yet? Nov 09 20:56:38 http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keeping_Root Nov 09 20:57:08 no i mean from the xda thread Nov 09 20:57:15 thats the same one Nov 09 20:57:31 i took JesusFreke's and put it on my wiki (he helped edit the wiki a little) Nov 09 20:58:29 flash the modified recovery, then reboot and flash the modified rc30 Nov 09 20:58:31 and you should be good Nov 09 20:59:17 i really want a way to put android on my axim :( Nov 09 20:59:21 nobody seems to be workign on this Nov 09 21:00:47 how do i boot into recovery mode, someone said home and i dont think thats right Nov 09 21:01:20 home + power Nov 09 21:01:38 then i am doing something wrong Nov 09 21:01:43 what is the boot_nosecure.img file in the AndroidMod.zip? Nov 09 21:01:53 hold home, press power, keep holding home till you see the triangle image Nov 09 21:02:16 it removes the secure (enables root) MystSparks_ (i think anyways) Nov 09 21:03:20 a hah! Nov 09 21:03:25 ok, nao what? Nov 09 21:04:06 did you already flash the recovery image? Nov 09 21:04:19 do you see "using testing keys" at the top? Nov 09 21:05:04 i did the recovery, but have not flashed yet, and i cannot get to the SD Card atm Nov 09 21:05:14 then dont do anythign else yet Nov 09 21:05:21 how do i reboot? Nov 09 21:05:25 you have to flash that before going farther Nov 09 21:05:27 hold power i think Nov 09 21:05:42 er,, Nov 09 21:06:07 http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Boot_Modifiers Nov 09 21:06:14 like i said, i havent done this Nov 09 21:06:19 im just reading from others info Nov 09 21:06:22 pulling battery Nov 09 21:06:28 k Nov 09 21:13:21 hey, I noticed that JesusFreke's modified rc30 boot.img does not include the new console=null kernel arg... what's the consensus on whether or not we want that? Nov 09 21:13:22 ok here we go.. :) Nov 09 21:13:29 DarkriftX we got root on rc30 now? :) Nov 09 21:18:31 a bit offtopic - any .htaccess experts here? how do i make RewriteRule dists/stable/Release stats.php NOT redirect the file Release.gpg, ONLY Release? Nov 09 21:19:49 ok.. i updated it, now what Nov 09 21:20:19 sounds like a regular expression issue. In the RewriteCond, make sure there is a $ at the end Nov 09 21:23:41 what can i do now with RC30? Nov 09 21:24:43 Hrm... FWIW, removing Update.* does *not* prevent an update from happening. My phone apparently pulled and applied it last night anyway (which failed, of course). I woke up to a brick this morning and had to recover with the R29 image. Nov 09 21:25:46 thanks MystSparks_ - so: RewriteRule dists/stable/Release$ stats.php Nov 09 21:25:48 ? Nov 09 21:27:07 I've never used the adb... I have it installed now... I unzipped the recovery image to the sd card, it's mounted currently, I execute the adb push from that directory and get "error: device not found" Nov 09 21:27:19 probably need the debugging mode or something Nov 09 21:28:08 poetic: I'd say try it and see if it works. I forget the syntax at the moment, but if it's using rgular expressions, you'll need the $ at the end to say the string ends that way Nov 09 21:30:14 MystSparks_: thanks, it worked. ;) Nov 09 21:31:14 andy yeah we had that happen to someone else Nov 09 21:31:30 as annoying as it is, the safest thing to do is remove otacerts Nov 09 21:31:33 np poetic Nov 09 21:31:49 Or just install the hacked R30 I guess, which is more surgery than I planned on. Nov 09 21:31:49 Chainfire, yes, but you have to start it on rc29 Nov 09 21:31:52 oalthough it occurs to me what we should do is just change the host it updates from Nov 09 21:32:58 we tried that spikebike Nov 09 21:33:03 and? Nov 09 21:33:05 it kills im and market Nov 09 21:33:12 and contacts i think Nov 09 21:34:12 ah Nov 09 21:34:30 ideally we can find source Nov 09 21:34:32 and i was almost crucified for having that idea Nov 09 21:34:42 and redirect only updates Nov 09 21:34:58 better yet, write our own updater :) Nov 09 21:35:19 have a central hub with update hosts and ahve it connect, get a url and download/install the modified update Nov 09 21:37:30 anyone have time for a linux/g1 question? Nov 09 21:38:25 i've got the udev rules all set to change the mode of the device when it's connected, and i've verified it with udevadm test, but i never see it registered with ./adb devices Nov 09 21:38:27 just ask Nov 09 21:38:31 if someone knows they will reply Nov 09 21:39:12 is there something more that i need to do to make this happen? i've also got all the eclipse business set up, but that seemed unrelated to any of this. Nov 09 21:39:53 everything that i've read online seems to indicate that things should just work at this point, and i can't find any information about the case where there's no device being registered Nov 09 21:40:02 elliottt: did you select USB debugging on the G1 in the settings? Nov 09 21:41:07 michaelnovakjr_: yep Nov 09 21:41:27 did you chmod your 50-android.rules file? Nov 09 21:41:44 Or just run adb as root to test -- if it works, then your udev setup isn't working right. Nov 09 21:42:23 michaelnovakjr_: yes, a+rx, though i can't see why the x is needed Nov 09 21:42:38 michaelnovakjr_: running udevadm test with the path to the device showed the rule firing even without the x Nov 09 21:43:18 andyross: it isn't working if i run it as root, either Nov 09 21:43:23 have you disconnected and reconnected the phone since you made your changes? Nov 09 21:43:27 michaelnovakjr_: yes Nov 09 21:43:30 many times :) Nov 09 21:43:46 The device is on the bus? lsusb should show something like: Nov 09 21:43:46 Bus 005 Device 039: ID 0bb4:0c02 High Tech Computer Corp. Nov 09 21:43:53 pastebin your 50-android.rules file Nov 09 21:44:03 michaelnovakjr_: Bus 001 Device 009: ID 0bb4:0c02 High Tech Computer Corp. Nov 09 21:44:30 that isn't your 50-android.rules file :) Nov 09 21:44:36 or atleast it shouldn't be Nov 09 21:44:47 michaelnovakjr_: http://rafb.net/p/USjHoH68.html Nov 09 21:44:59 michaelnovakjr_: sorry, that should have been to andyross. Nov 09 21:45:08 And Settings -> Applications -> Development -> USB Debugging is checked? Nov 09 21:45:15 andyross: yes, it's checked Nov 09 21:45:27 change ATTRS to SYSFS Nov 09 21:47:07 elliottt: When in doubt, reboot both endpoints and reattach? I did have a glitch once when I noticed an oops in dmesg. Nov 09 21:47:22 michaelnovakjr_: no change with the ATTRS/SYSFS change Nov 09 21:47:42 andyross: i've tried rebooting my laptop, and the phone, no change :( Nov 09 21:49:15 elliottt: what linux are you running? Nov 09 21:50:20 michaelnovakjr_: archlinux with kernel 2.6.27 Nov 09 21:52:05 hm, following the instructions on the site has worked for me, not sure what your issue could be, I've setup three machines with device debugging Nov 09 21:53:08 michaelnovakjr_: bummer. sounds like it's something to do with my configuration then :/ Nov 09 21:53:46 possibly Nov 09 21:54:03 i should give this a go on my other machin, and see if i get the same result Nov 09 21:54:29 it's worth a shot Nov 09 22:05:08 so where does yahoo messenger save my password, for example? not on sdcard, right? Nov 09 22:05:31 its in /etc/yahoopassword.xml Nov 09 22:05:41 So when trying to run "adb shell" after the recovery.img is updated, and I'm in recovery mode.. using test keys... I get"exec '/system/bin/sh' failed; No such file or direcotry92) - i verified it exists and has proper permissions Nov 09 22:06:12 odd MystSparks_ Nov 09 22:06:19 can you go manually execute it? Nov 09 22:06:22 DarkriftX, is that an sdcard, too? (that's a bit harder to remove?) Nov 09 22:06:23 or doyou not even get shell like that Nov 09 22:06:28 orci, i was joking Nov 09 22:06:58 i forgot you were talking about security till after i commented Nov 09 22:07:10 heh ok Nov 09 22:07:12 it just exits... If I boot into the system, I can telnetd and then I have root fine... just in recovery mode Nov 09 22:07:24 hrmmm Nov 09 22:07:35 thats odd Nov 09 22:07:41 i wish jesusfreke was in here Nov 09 22:07:46 lol Nov 09 22:07:46 post that in his thread Nov 09 22:07:58 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2881206 Nov 09 22:08:03 alright... I'll verify I didn't do anything stupid first. :) Nov 09 22:08:10 lol. ok Nov 09 22:08:33 can I increase the / size? can I replace that card? is it also a flash memory card? Nov 09 22:08:42 no Nov 09 22:08:53 everything that is not /sdcard is unchangeable Nov 09 22:09:13 they are custom partitions built into the device Nov 09 22:09:38 DarkriftX, so they need serious equipment to read that card without breaking the screen lock Nov 09 22:09:51 ? Nov 09 22:09:53 there is no card Nov 09 22:09:54 and no Nov 09 22:10:16 screen lock is not a security feature Nov 09 22:10:27 its so you do not press buttons while your phone is in your pocket Nov 09 22:10:47 michaelnovakjr_: also failed on my other machine Nov 09 22:11:05 what config is your other machine elliottt ? Nov 09 22:11:16 also archlinux, unfortunately Nov 09 22:11:24 but an i686, instead of x86_64 Nov 09 22:11:58 i'll talk to a co-worker about it. he uses debian, and has gotten it working successfully. Nov 09 22:12:05 hm, not sure... i'm using ubuntu without an issue Nov 09 22:12:19 elliottt, try a vm Nov 09 22:12:31 DarkriftX: good idea. Nov 09 22:12:40 someone earlier used a win vm to mess with it, so an ubuntu vm would prob work also Nov 09 22:12:58 s/mess with it/connect to the device/ Nov 09 22:12:58 DarkriftX meant: someone earlier used a win vm to connect to the device, so an ubuntu vm would prob work also Nov 09 22:13:02 not sure what you are doing, but might work Nov 09 22:13:21 do we have basic unix commands such as du, fdisk etc.? Nov 09 22:13:28 some orci Nov 09 22:13:33 once you install busybox, you have most Nov 09 22:13:42 i think there is df, no du or fdisk Nov 09 22:13:58 DarkriftX: all i wanted to do was run ./adb devices to see what i could do Nov 09 22:14:08 DarkriftX, busybox is not in market I guess Nov 09 22:14:18 no orci its not an android Nov 09 22:14:55 an android app Nov 09 22:15:02 its a linux multi-call binary Nov 09 22:15:25 orci, http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Rooting_Android Nov 09 22:16:52 DarkriftX, OK thank you Nov 09 22:17:19 np Nov 09 22:24:30 darkriftx, looks like I cannot be in recovery mode to use adb shell, that's why i was getting that error... Nov 09 22:24:38 works fine when i boot normally Nov 09 22:25:14 ahhhh, makes sense Nov 09 22:25:21 ;) silly me Nov 09 22:25:34 oh yeah, it only gives you file access Nov 09 22:25:39 ye[ Nov 09 22:25:41 yep Nov 09 22:26:04 (I'm learning a lot today bout this little toy, lol) Nov 09 22:30:18 hey Nov 09 22:30:41 y0 Nov 09 22:30:44 Anyone know when A2DP is slated to be released? Nov 09 22:32:10 ttuttle: when you find out, let me know Nov 09 22:32:27 mikez5: Okay. I'll ask lockwo... damn. Nov 09 22:32:54 ttuttle: It is all ready to go now, except for a small matter of getting it to work :-) Nov 09 22:33:12 mikez5: Oh. Lemme know when I can try it. I've ordered the headset from sellout.woot today. Nov 09 22:33:49 mikez5: The nice bit about it is that I can plug in any headphones I like. Nov 09 22:34:40 Maybe some y'all could stop playing with root and start writing something useful and contributing to the project :-) Nov 09 22:35:09 MystSparks_, i know what you mean Nov 09 22:35:20 i dont even have one yet and i almost know it inside and out Nov 09 22:35:26 * ttuttle puts his hands on his hips next to mikez5 and says "Yeah, what he said!" Nov 09 22:35:50 anyone know of all the changes with the rc30 full update Nov 09 22:36:04 no ionstorm im still looking for a list to add to the wiki Nov 09 22:36:14 there are like 2-3 changes i have on there Nov 09 22:36:37 Fixes: root bug by setting console=null to stop the redirection, removes telnetd (telnetd does not seem to even exist in this update), ???? Nov 09 22:36:37 New Features: Scrolling text for home screen (???) Nov 09 22:36:51 Scrolling text? Nov 09 22:36:56 yeah :S Nov 09 22:37:01 What do you mean? Nov 09 22:37:03 havent found more details Nov 09 22:37:22 but i think it was romainguy_ that said his scrolling text made it into the update Nov 09 22:37:30 from what ive heard it makes long shortcut names scroll Nov 09 22:37:34 instead of wrapping Nov 09 22:37:40 but that could be wrong Nov 09 22:37:43 I've never seen them wrap. Nov 09 22:37:55 I hope they don't scroll actively all the time. That sounds distracting. Nov 09 22:38:00 lol Nov 09 22:38:23 OH wow! Nov 09 22:38:26 They *do* scroll. Nov 09 22:38:32 brb Nov 09 22:38:35 lo Nov 09 22:38:37 lol* Nov 09 22:40:45 to all the us guys here what does "In Box Factory" mean ? Nov 09 22:41:22 ? Nov 09 22:41:34 meaning exactly as it came when you removed it from the box? Nov 09 22:54:05 Anyone know of a way to make a backup of files recursively i.e the system... I don't want to have to cat each individual file Nov 09 22:54:16 tar Nov 09 22:54:21 :P Nov 09 22:54:44 MystSparks_, "busybox cp -s busybox cp" then "cp -s busybox tar" Nov 09 22:55:04 do that in the /system/bin folder btw Nov 09 22:55:12 assuming you ahve busybox there already Nov 09 22:55:41 cool, thanks Nov 09 22:58:06 ./system/core/rootdir/init.rc:service flash_recovery /system/bin/flash_image recovery /system/recovery.img Nov 09 22:58:24 wonder why they do that Nov 09 23:06:06 anyone else having debugging problems with rc30? i can no longer connect to my phone from eclipse (exception follows), and mapview no longer seems to respect my debugging api key. looks to me as if the jailbreak fix disabled the shell for debugging as well? Nov 09 23:06:15 ttuttle, huhwhat? what shortcut names exactly do scroll? Nov 09 23:06:19 java.io.IOException: device (HT839GZ28780) request rejected: device offline Nov 09 23:06:19 at com.android.ddmlib.AdbHelper.setDevice(Unknown Source) Nov 09 23:06:19 at com.android.ddmlib.AdbHelper.executeRemoteCommand(Unknown Source) Nov 09 23:06:19 at com.android.ddmlib.Device.executeShellCommand(Unknown Source) Nov 09 23:06:19 at com.android.ddmuilib.logcat.LogPanel$3.run(Unknown Source) Nov 09 23:06:32 tsunami, use pastbin don't flood Nov 09 23:06:38 my bad Nov 09 23:06:43 grr Nov 09 23:06:48 owl Nov 09 23:13:34 I have a inside which i am defining Nov 09 23:14:04 (shape is type=rectangle) this results in a rectangle with all 4 corners rounded Nov 09 23:14:24 however, when i change android:radius to android:topRightRadius and android:topLeftRadius Nov 09 23:14:35 i get a rectangle with zero rounded corners Nov 09 23:18:42 hm ok Nov 09 23:19:01 adding android:bottomLeft/RightRadius="0.1dp" created the desired effect Nov 09 23:29:10 andyross: i ran adb kill-server as root, and was able to list a device. oddly enough, i couldn't then kill the server and list it as a normal user. Nov 09 23:29:27 andyross: i think that there must be some sort of odd permissions issue somewhere Nov 09 23:35:43 elliottt: when you type "adb devices", it will restart the server. Nov 09 23:35:58 mikez5: ah, thanks. i'll stop typing adb kill-server :) Nov 09 23:36:17 Confusing things will happen if you use some adb commands as root and some as not. So it is best to get the /etc/udev/rules.d thing working. Nov 09 23:36:44 mikez5: well, i thought i had it working. must be some subtle difference between how archlinux and ubuntu are using udev Nov 09 23:36:53 adb kill-server shouldn't be necessary very often. It is used to restart adb if something goes wrong. Nov 09 23:37:03 i noticed that if i don't set the group, it sets the group as root, so i changed that Nov 09 23:37:19 hey anyone know any good articles on mobile telephony?? -- understanding the real process of what's going on behind the code? Nov 09 23:37:20 I had trouble getting it to work under gentoo, but I found adding my user to the "usb" group worked. Nov 09 23:37:30 though, i guess that shouldn't matter if the mode is 0666 Nov 09 23:37:50 You might need to be in plugdev group for the udev trick to work. Nov 09 23:38:02 is there a way to draw a border/outline around a shape? Nov 09 23:38:11 The problem is the USB device files get recreated every time you reconnect, so chmod 666 isn't very convenient. Nov 09 23:40:02 mikez5: plugdev doesn't exist on my system Nov 09 23:42:43 mikez5: i don't think that adb devices does kill the server. if i run it as root first, it works as a normal user afterword, but fails the otherway around Nov 09 23:43:52 The first time you run adb, it forks itself and leaves a "server" copy of itself running. The second time, adb connects to the adb server via a socket. Nov 09 23:44:15 It is the forked server that needs access to the USB driver, so that is why it works if you run it as root the first time. Nov 09 23:44:57 adb kill-server connects to the server process and sends it a message telling it to quit. So that should work if you type it as non-root. Nov 09 23:45:33 Anyway, it is much simpler if you can fix the permissions. Nov 09 23:45:38 Try ls -l /dev/bus/usb/001 Nov 09 23:46:07 Add yourself to whatever group those files belong to. Nov 09 23:46:21 For example, on my system I have: Nov 09 23:46:24 well, i've got the created symlink with 0666 permissions in /dev, so i'm not sure what else could be the problem, at this point Nov 09 23:46:24 crw-rw-r-- 1 root usb 189, 0 Oct 23 13:47 001 Nov 09 23:46:45 So adding myself to usb group worked for me. Nov 09 23:47:03 what symlinks? Nov 09 23:47:32 sorry, device in /dev Nov 09 23:47:40 here's what i've got at the moment: Nov 09 23:47:55 crw-rw-rw- 1 root users 189, 21 2008-11-09 15:47 /dev/usbdev1.22 Nov 09 23:48:06 i'm a member of the users group, so i'm not sure why adb devices is failing Nov 09 23:48:38 Oh, adb does not use the /dev/usbdev files. Nov 09 23:49:05 ah, ok Nov 09 23:49:10 adb looks for the device in /dev/bus/usb/ Nov 09 23:49:50 crw-r--r-- 1 root root 189, 21 2008-11-09 15:47 022 Nov 09 23:49:51 ok Nov 09 23:49:59 thanks for that, i felt like i was going insane :) Nov 09 23:50:13 For example, it might be /dev/bus/usb/005/083 Nov 09 23:50:21 romainguy__: Nov 09 23:50:27 The 005 might differ depending on which hub you plug it into. Nov 09 23:50:31 so now i just need to figure out how to work with those permissions, instead of the ones in /dev Nov 09 23:50:38 and the 083 will increment each time you connect/disconnect. Nov 09 23:51:21 gdx> are the arm-eabi-* in the Android source dist GNU compatible? (ie, take same options etc as GNU binutils) ? Nov 09 23:51:24 *gdsx Nov 09 23:51:52 neat, mibbit works pretty well in the android browser Nov 09 23:52:32 zhobbs_: did mibbit put a mobile mibbit version? Nov 09 23:52:54 dont know, never used it on the desktop Nov 09 23:53:11 would be insane trying to use mibbit without a trackball or dpad. Nov 09 23:53:51 i was gonna add an ajax irc chat to my site but wasnt sure how well it would work Nov 09 23:54:00 on a device that is Nov 09 23:54:45 Chainfire: yes, the android arm-eabi-* tools are GNU. Nov 09 23:54:59 Chainfire: dunno. Are they not GNU or branched from the GNU... yeah... what mikez5 said Nov 09 23:54:59 thx mikez5 ... means I got other issues :) Nov 09 23:55:48 anyone been running their G1 on 2.5G getting more than 24 hours on "mixed use?" Nov 09 23:57:55 DarkriftX: mibbit has an embedded version you can throw anywhere in your site. Nov 09 23:58:04 yeah Nov 09 23:58:53 would require some magic ponies to make mibbit persist while the rest of the site remained dynamic... Nov 10 00:00:20 anybody know where i can download the default ringtones that comes with android? Nov 10 00:04:08 what is the android screen resolution Nov 10 00:04:46 ionstorm, the physical screen and the home screen "background" sizes are different Nov 10 00:05:15 what are both Nov 10 00:05:29 the physical screen rez is 320 x 480 Nov 10 00:06:16 the background image size should be 640 x 480 Nov 10 00:06:31 * languish tired, made sure he had correct info Nov 10 00:08:33 if u embed mibbit it works great, see http://www.android-unleashed.com/2008/11/howto-internet-relay-chat-irc-on-your.html Nov 10 00:09:32 mikez5: it's weird, my udev rules never have any effect on the /dev/bus/usb/*/* files, but always work on /dev/usbdev*.* instead Nov 10 00:09:40 hm.. anyone know if its possible to fetch the users phone number from the SDK? Nov 10 00:09:46 nice Nov 10 00:09:50 added mibbit to my site Nov 10 00:10:13 w0rd Nov 10 00:10:46 http://android-dls.com/android-freenode-chat.html someone on a g1 tell me if it looks like crap, if so ill remove it :( Nov 10 00:10:49 Have you guys heard about the latest android bug? Do you know if google intends on patching it soon? Nov 10 00:11:00 looks like PROPERTY_LINE1_NUMBER. no longer exists? Nov 10 00:13:04 latest android bug? Nov 10 00:13:09 or the one from a week ago that is patched already :S Nov 10 00:13:31 Android-DLs: the latest one Nov 10 00:13:36 mikez5: changing SUBSYSTEM=="usb_device" to BUS=="usb" seemed to fix everything :) Nov 10 00:13:43 elliottt: what linux distro are you using? Nov 10 00:14:09 mikez5: archlinux Nov 10 00:14:24 elliottt: right, newer distros have a different syntax for the udev scripts. Glad to hear you got it working. Nov 10 00:14:29 elliottt: that makes sense; basically, the format changed between versions of udev and/or the kernel Nov 10 00:14:37 Android-DLs: you can type a command on the g1, say reboot. and it will execute it. Nov 10 00:14:44 gdsx: ah, ok. Nov 10 00:14:58 too bad they didn't seem to care about backward compatibility :-( Nov 10 00:15:04 mikez5: thanks for the help, i didn't realize that adb was using /dev/bus/usb before :) Nov 10 00:15:18 Hey, how do you get into system recovery on the emulator? Nov 10 00:15:20 Android-DLs: for example. I was in the browser and I did a search for "reboot" and pressed enter and the whole the rebooted Nov 10 00:15:34 The emulator doesn't have recovery. Nov 10 00:15:42 darkriftx - it seems fine Nov 10 00:15:45 Android-DLs: I was just wondering if anyone had heard any news on that Nov 10 00:15:48 nice Nov 10 00:16:00 ITechJunkie, that is an old bug Nov 10 00:16:08 and is being patched (for those who are lettign them patch it) Nov 10 00:16:13 no recovery? =[ Nov 10 00:16:21 Is it possible to get rootshell? Nov 10 00:16:23 DarkriftX: oh so it should be patched in RC30? Nov 10 00:16:38 The adb shell is always root in the emulator. Nov 10 00:16:41 it is Nov 10 00:16:46 but if you patch it, you lose root Nov 10 00:16:48 ok good Nov 10 00:16:59 but functions that involve writing to boot partitions won't work eh Nov 10 00:17:02 <`vip> every item i've scanned with Shop Savvy, only returns WEB products, no local Nov 10 00:17:03 <`vip> :/ Nov 10 00:17:05 It is only non-root on devices when the system property ro.secure=1 Nov 10 00:17:19 DarkriftX: right. Thanks for answering my question man Nov 10 00:17:23 no prob Nov 10 00:17:41 the big thing now is making it so you can KEEP root after upgrading to rc30 Nov 10 00:17:51 I just dont see how to scroll up the buffer on the mibbit client. but it displays just fine Nov 10 00:18:12 How do i get to android market Nov 10 00:18:16 DarkriftX: right, i've already moved my cert file Nov 10 00:18:30 enterusername, you have to have a G1 Nov 10 00:18:32 DarkriftX: do you know how the progess on that is coming? Nov 10 00:18:33 I've got a HTC TOUCH vogue using android however i do not know where i can get the google market apspps Nov 10 00:18:35 oh Nov 10 00:18:36 ITechJunkie: http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keeping_Root Nov 10 00:18:44 its done ITechJunkie Nov 10 00:18:48 how can I foind maverick Nov 10 00:18:53 enterusername, it comes pre-installed on the G1. Nov 10 00:19:02 Android-DLs: thanks man. I'll check it out. Nov 10 00:19:02 But i have a VOGue.. Nov 10 00:19:03 lol Nov 10 00:19:19 Is there a way to get it thats not on a g12 Nov 10 00:19:20 erk g1 Nov 10 00:19:26 <---- DarkriftX Nov 10 00:19:27 lol Nov 10 00:19:31 just testing out new mibbet Nov 10 00:19:35 enterusername, I dunno, maybe someone will figure out how to dupe the Market app from the G1 for other devices Nov 10 00:20:01 oh is there anyway to get Maverick for it? or is that only for the G1 too? Nov 10 00:20:12 Android-DLs: By the way, you're internet irc client looks great on the g1 Nov 10 00:20:30 languish, all you do is copy the files from /data/app and send them to soemone else Nov 10 00:20:42 thx ITechJunkie Nov 10 00:21:13 is there a GoogelTalk/msn client opens source for android thats not a g1? Nov 10 00:21:16 any suggestions? Nov 10 00:21:20 DarkriftX: no prob, you guys did a real great job. Nov 10 00:22:32 anyone? Nov 10 00:23:06 DarkriftX: yeah but that would be redistributing googles proprietary code :P Nov 10 00:23:44 I wonder if there's a way to background and forground this browser window Nov 10 00:23:57 so it doesn't lose connection when doing something else on the G1 Nov 10 00:24:27 then make it a shortcut to bg it and fg it Nov 10 00:24:40 languish, its just an apk Nov 10 00:25:12 DarkriftX, some apk's aren't lawfully freely distributable :) Nov 10 00:25:26 someone should make a mibbit apk that is optimized Nov 10 00:25:27 * languish now unpopular lulz Nov 10 00:25:32 so u dont need a browser Nov 10 00:25:36 s/some apk's/some copyrighted materials/; Nov 10 00:25:47 plus runs as service so u dont disconnect Nov 10 00:25:54 ttuttle yeah I was gonna go there if someone whined :) Nov 10 00:26:17 didn't want to start that discussion if I didn't have to Nov 10 00:26:48 shit Nov 10 00:26:51 hehe Nov 10 00:26:53 that fucking timeout Nov 10 00:27:18 gotta keep ur phone awake Nov 10 00:27:22 that's really annoying that the active app dies when the screenlock cuts in Nov 10 00:27:36 create a mibbit apk Nov 10 00:27:39 What's to prevent t-mobile/Google from sending an OTA update signed with the testing keys, thus removing our root access? Nov 10 00:27:39 ionstorm yeah Nov 10 00:27:40 that keeps it awake Nov 10 00:27:52 MystSparks_, that would be lulz Nov 10 00:27:53 w00t Nov 10 00:28:04 MystSparks_ and also potentially a legal battle for them Nov 10 00:28:10 one they likely won't win. Nov 10 00:28:21 ahhh Nov 10 00:28:33 though it depends on what those test keys are based on Nov 10 00:28:39 who/how they were generated Nov 10 00:28:51 and if they're under any license Nov 10 00:29:13 still, google would lose over doing that one way or another. Nov 10 00:29:32 hmm, yeah, just interesting, thought I'd ask. Nov 10 00:29:36 :) Nov 10 00:29:36 MystSparks_: custom recompiled /sbin/recovery that ignores /cache/recovery/command Nov 10 00:30:14 jesusfreak's recovery has that ignore? Nov 10 00:30:20 yep Nov 10 00:30:26 it doesn't Nov 10 00:30:28 'aight'y Nov 10 00:30:29 no? Nov 10 00:30:31 no Nov 10 00:30:35 so.. Nov 10 00:30:43 oh... well... Nov 10 00:30:43 so i'm looking at the src :P Nov 10 00:31:03 might be something to think about just to cover our butts Nov 10 00:31:28 fnord, i could have sworn the error you get about /command when you flash the hacked RC30 was that.. Nov 10 00:31:44 (flash and reboot) Nov 10 00:31:49 it's a simple fix. adding a 'return;' on line 140 of recovery/recovery.c Nov 10 00:32:15 languish: that error is because the file doesn't exist Nov 10 00:32:22 ah Nov 10 00:32:34 i do wonder if the ota system can specify boot message Nov 10 00:32:40 if so that needs to be disabled as well Nov 10 00:32:50 hmm Nov 10 00:32:52 ya Nov 10 00:32:59 "the rythms gonna get you" Nov 10 00:33:15 and get all those who've updated... to update manually again Nov 10 00:33:18 And for further fixes...recovery needs to disallow writing to /system/recovery.img Nov 10 00:33:27 I'm just waiting for someone to publish a rickroll app Nov 10 00:33:34 suprised it hasn't happened yet Nov 10 00:33:41 but that involves string comparisons in minizip functions Nov 10 00:34:03 hi where can i find non google market apps Nov 10 00:34:45 enterusername, you can download apps from android-dls.com forums and other places. but you cannot get "market" apps if you cannot access the market Nov 10 00:34:52 but some of the market apps, can be found on other websites Nov 10 00:34:58 most actually can be Nov 10 00:35:10 enterusername: anywhere that isn't market... lol web, ftp, https, UUEncoded, FidoNet, wherever ;) any "personal" site Nov 10 00:35:20 yo Nov 10 00:35:30 momma Nov 10 00:35:36 :| Nov 10 00:35:38 their gotta be a way for pc's to axs the market Nov 10 00:35:39 lol Nov 10 00:35:46 I havent seen any scrolling text in rc30.. Nov 10 00:35:52 ionstorm, eventually Nov 10 00:35:55 what url does the market use, anyone do any sniffing Nov 10 00:36:12 i may just arp poison my g1 and see Nov 10 00:36:12 Neverender, me either Nov 10 00:36:31 id love ettercap on my g1 Nov 10 00:36:32 lol Nov 10 00:36:48 so compile it :| Nov 10 00:37:10 i will definately do that Nov 10 00:37:14 there's tcpdump Nov 10 00:37:40 yo you could sidejack with the g1 prolly Nov 10 00:38:05 fuqn g1 h4x0ring Nov 10 00:42:07 * Chainfire still trying to get his fav compiler to compile for android :/ Nov 10 00:44:26 Chainfire, http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Compiling_for_Android Nov 10 00:46:10 Neverender, its the shortcut text on home screen if the shortcut name is long Nov 10 00:47:01 DarkriftX, yeah it's not scrolling for me Nov 10 00:47:07 :| Nov 10 00:47:16 wonder if it's a hacked rc30 thing? Nov 10 00:47:18 then it's part of an internal OTA Nov 10 00:48:01 hrm unfair, unjustm scrolling shortcuts are a must! Nov 10 00:48:06 -m :/ Nov 10 00:48:14 yeah well it's coming Nov 10 00:48:20 :) Nov 10 00:48:55 how's your weekend going romainguy_? Nov 10 00:49:03 ionstorm no go on that for ubuntu :/ Nov 10 00:49:03 languish: i know! it's so unfair that the production builds aren't more buggy and less stable! demand no less than mainline builds from the evil empire! Nov 10 00:49:14 pretty good, just reading and playing games :) Nov 10 00:49:22 about yours? Nov 10 00:49:35 Is there a way to set a ListView's maximum height Nov 10 00:49:39 before it starts to scroll Nov 10 00:49:40 All good. Nice and relaxing Nov 10 00:49:47 thanks for asking Nov 10 00:50:12 hi dudes Nov 10 00:50:18 ttuttle, some of us don't mind a little buggy to see some cool new stuff in the pipeline :) Nov 10 00:50:23 languish: heh Nov 10 00:50:28 as long as we can flash back and forth! Nov 10 00:50:53 languish: yeah, but n00bs will complain to tmo. Nov 10 00:51:06 don't gove it to teh n00bs :| Nov 10 00:53:05 romainguy__: hey; I'm trying to figure out where (in the framework code) I should instrument so I can determine which view handles a tap Nov 10 00:53:08 ugh, michelle obama "hot pictures" spam. NO SUCH THING Nov 10 00:53:43 gdsx: View.java Nov 10 00:54:10 hmmmm Nov 10 00:54:10 gdsx: then in there, onTouchEvent() Nov 10 00:54:42 would a recovery that refuses to flash boot: be good? it would drop boot.img off into /system/ and allow someone to manually flash Nov 10 00:54:55 romainguy__: merci Nov 10 00:55:19 romainguy__: oh, also: http://xsdg.blogspot.com/2008/11/happy-googleween.html Nov 10 00:55:44 romainguy__: is it possible to set a max on a listview's viewable items? Nov 10 00:55:54 Ramblurr: what do you mean? Nov 10 00:56:59 romainguy__: oh wait.. i can just change layout_height to be a hardcoded value instead of wrap_content Nov 10 00:57:08 yes Nov 10 01:30:39 When a screen rotation occurs and your activity is restarted... is there a way to detect that this particular onCreate() is happening because of a rotation? Nov 10 01:31:20 e.g., something like getIntent().hasExtra("after-rotation") Nov 10 01:37:17 and xda down again :-/ Nov 10 01:39:55 and back up.. Nov 10 01:39:55 heh Nov 10 02:03:05 have you ever eaten something so hot and spicy it gives you hiccups? Nov 10 02:03:13 yep Nov 10 02:03:22 funfun Nov 10 02:03:40 im eating some thai curry chicken that is on fire Nov 10 02:04:26 i'll bet it will burn going out too... :o) Nov 10 02:05:54 i bought a toilet for my barn today, it was expensive, 200 dollars Nov 10 02:06:13 and that was about a middle price Nov 10 02:31:08 i couldn't find my thumbdrive so i used my g1 instead Nov 10 02:31:10 it worked! **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Nov 10 02:59:57 2008