**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Nov 12 02:59:58 2008 Nov 12 02:59:59 that's blasphemy! Nov 12 03:00:26 lol Nov 12 03:00:47 actually, i could use a better form factor Nov 12 03:01:23 my wife wants to get a BB Bold instead of a G1 now .. bah Nov 12 03:01:29 what about android on my pc ... interesting Nov 12 03:01:49 then she's gonna want the storm Nov 12 03:02:18 nah she hates touchscreen keybaords Nov 12 03:02:22 boards* Nov 12 03:02:46 she has an enV now .. and she was looking at a G1 with me .. but she can get a Bold for 1/2 price through work Nov 12 03:03:15 hola romainguy :) Nov 12 03:03:15 I think the storm will be a dud Nov 12 03:03:23 yeah i think its overrated Nov 12 03:04:25 When it comes down to it, apps will make the device Nov 12 03:04:51 Android already has some really cool apps, with hopefully more to come... especially a better media player Nov 12 03:05:07 i heard a vlc port is in discussion ;) Nov 12 03:05:44 oh please no Nov 12 03:05:53 VLC is ugly like betty Nov 12 03:06:02 i want something slick Nov 12 03:06:10 slick or fast? Nov 12 03:06:15 both Nov 12 03:06:24 time will tell Nov 12 03:07:47 i rather have TCPMP than Windows Media Player Nov 12 03:09:47 yeah, but tcpmp is rather dead Nov 12 03:10:53 ogg vorbis all the way! Nov 12 03:10:57 true .. but I came from a Moto Q before the G1 and it was leaps and bounds :) Nov 12 03:11:06 ogg = codec, not player :P Nov 12 03:11:39 DJTachyon: technically, ogg=container, vorbis=codec Nov 12 03:12:01 indeed Nov 12 03:12:09 lol Nov 12 03:12:25 You are technically correct... the best kind of correct. Nov 12 03:12:58 finally! just got an OTA update notice Nov 12 03:13:09 DJTachyon i hate you Nov 12 03:13:12 i am still on RC19 Nov 12 03:13:17 so was I Nov 12 03:13:29 and I am getting a new G1 in the next couple days Nov 12 03:13:30 :P Nov 12 03:13:35 why? Nov 12 03:13:40 can I just check... OTA updates only happen on t-mobile? Nov 12 03:13:49 the accelerometer/compass package was b0rked when I got it Nov 12 03:13:50 i wonder if being on a WiFi network has an effect on whether you get your OTA update Nov 12 03:14:03 trigatch4: you can get OTAs over WiFi Nov 12 03:14:15 okay thanks... cause i'm almost always on WiFi Nov 12 03:14:19 trigatch4: it doesn't (but it makes the download much much faster if you're over wifi when the download triggers) Nov 12 03:14:22 i have been on the phone over and over trying to get another one Nov 12 03:14:28 but OTAs are not sent to all devices at once Nov 12 03:14:33 yeah Nov 12 03:14:38 2,000/day or something is what i've heard Nov 12 03:14:39 xavd: i downloaded and installed the 32 jdk but still no go Nov 12 03:15:01 unfortunately, it seems like they're going through the same cycle or something Nov 12 03:15:13 http://www.pastie.org/312754 Nov 12 03:15:14 by the time RC29 updating happens, RC30 comes out Nov 12 03:15:23 flashing now ... Nov 12 03:15:23 and they start the RC30 updates with the same people Nov 12 03:15:31 im executing busy box as root, but it runs under uid 10033 :/ Nov 12 03:16:20 is busybox useful? Nov 12 03:16:37 sfuentes: it depends Nov 12 03:16:49 if you are not a nutjob, no :)))))) Nov 12 03:17:22 its very useful for us nutjobs though Nov 12 03:18:27 <`vip> trying to install the Android Dev tool plugin Nov 12 03:18:30 <`vip> and i get this error Nov 12 03:18:33 <`vip> No repository found at https://dl-ssl.google.com/android/eclipse/ Nov 12 03:18:33 <`vip> Error reading update site https://dl-ssl.google.com/android/eclipse/. Nov 12 03:18:33 <`vip> Unconnected sockets not implemented Nov 12 03:19:12 can t-mobile charge for market applications? Nov 12 03:19:23 <`vip> in 09 Nov 12 03:19:30 <`vip> devs can Nov 12 03:19:46 is market apps hosted by t-mob or google Nov 12 03:20:16 i'm pretty sure its google Nov 12 03:20:30 tmo might have their own store Nov 12 03:20:53 "T-Mobile says that all apps are free until 2009." I thought t-mobile would be charging after that Nov 12 03:21:00 yeah, it's google... isn't there already at least one other third-party store? Nov 12 03:21:15 is there? Nov 12 03:21:27 can we add other repositories? Nov 12 03:21:51 can we see licenses of market apps? Nov 12 03:22:53 the 'Android Market' only goes to one repository... but anyone else can build an app which provides a storefront, installs apps, etc. Nov 12 03:23:11 although I guess you'd need non-Market app support turned on Nov 12 03:23:54 Leeds, what do I lose if turn that feature on? Nov 12 03:23:57 ugh, just got off the phone with a tier 2 tmo G1 "specialist" and he was clueless. Even told me they only get about an hour with the G1 in a large classroom with only 20 devices. And this was on an escalated call, related to a problem with their T-Mobile Hotspot App Nov 12 03:24:15 heh Nov 12 03:24:21 orci_: support, warranty, your soul - I dunno, I'm well outside the support model already Nov 12 03:24:25 They barely have an understanding of the difference between a hotspot, and their hotspot app Nov 12 03:24:32 TMO - I FAIl YOU Nov 12 03:24:32 languish, still trying to find help with your issue? Nov 12 03:24:39 I had it identify my local AP ( a linksys running openwrt) as a T-mobile hotspot Nov 12 03:24:44 languish, I'd stop calling T-Mo now... you know more then they do. Nov 12 03:24:57 damn, their answer is "reset the phone, it fixes all the problems" Nov 12 03:25:24 languish, my woman works for T-Mobile (not in the G1 Department) and yes they really are that stupid. Nov 12 03:25:37 languish, basically if it's not in their knowledgebase... there is no answer Nov 12 03:25:43 but my wife has an app that will lose data she doesn't want to lose, that isn't stored in the cloud. So, I'm going to contact the developer and see if there's a way to export it, and reimport it Nov 12 03:26:03 :( Nov 12 03:26:05 Damn, there was an answer on the t-mobile forums, but because it included editing the APN settings, they removed it. Nov 12 03:26:10 seems kinda strange to fight root, yet not provide device backups Nov 12 03:26:13 wow this replacement phone is never going to happen Nov 12 03:26:20 im getting pretty frustated Nov 12 03:26:21 DJTachyon ? Nov 12 03:26:26 languish, you need the APN? Nov 12 03:26:30 Damn, no.. Nov 12 03:26:30 languish, it's epc.t-mobile.com Nov 12 03:26:33 I know Nov 12 03:26:36 thanks :) Nov 12 03:26:36 languish: i still haven't gotten my replacement Nov 12 03:26:50 sorry if i wasn't paying attention to answer better Nov 12 03:26:52 DJTachyon, ouch. If you want help with that.. Nov 12 03:27:01 Damn, sokay man :) Nov 12 03:27:13 I got it covered. I'm just going through the "correct" procedures Nov 12 03:27:13 4+ calls to the return center, they keep saying it something about duplicate orders, or backorders, or issues with how it was put in the system Nov 12 03:27:23 because it's my wife's phone and she wants everything done on the up and up Nov 12 03:27:53 heh .. Nov 12 03:27:56 i don't know what to do Nov 12 03:28:14 otherwise I'd just read out the data from the db, reset, reinstall her app, and repopulate the data Nov 12 03:28:28 DJTachyon, /msg Nov 12 03:29:01 languish, sadly if you had root that would be really easy. Nov 12 03:29:56 damn, yeah, I'm capable of handling it the smart way, but this is my wife's phone with the problem, so I'm handling it the t-mobile way. Then I'll blog about it. Nov 12 03:29:57 :D Nov 12 03:30:18 languish, you like punishment Nov 12 03:30:18 lol Nov 12 03:30:24 hehe Nov 12 03:31:51 Well, I do a little consumer evangelism as a hobby Nov 12 03:32:09 Small issues, big change, better tomorrow.. Nov 12 03:32:28 ah, well let me tell you T-Mobile won't change. They outsource 99% of their infrastructure. Nov 12 03:32:35 but your more then welcome to try Nov 12 03:32:40 I'm rather familar with tmo :) Nov 12 03:33:01 A NY master dealer was one of my clients for a few years Nov 12 03:33:20 I used to work in the hidden recesses of T-Mobile Nov 12 03:33:22 and I've been a GSM customer in NY form before TMO came in in 2000 Nov 12 03:33:29 right voicestream Nov 12 03:33:33 and before that... Nov 12 03:33:46 and Omnipoint :) Nov 12 03:33:51 oh omni .. Nov 12 03:33:51 I give up Nov 12 03:33:52 and before omnipoint, apple :) Nov 12 03:33:58 Android is not working for me Nov 12 03:34:01 :( Nov 12 03:34:13 melvinram, ? Nov 12 03:34:15 apple cellular, not Apple computers Nov 12 03:34:31 languish, it doesn't matter if your with them for 90 years... they treat you like they want to at that moment. Nov 12 03:34:38 yep Nov 12 03:34:41 well aware Nov 12 03:34:49 I used antennasearch.com to find the owner of the planned tower going in behind where I work .. emailed him, his secretary called me back and I found out Verizon, AT&T, and Omnipoint are going on the tower :P Nov 12 03:34:52 f'ing mormon execs. Nov 12 03:34:53 they would have more customer satisfaction then... resolved customers Nov 12 03:34:57 I'm like Omni? hah .. Nov 12 03:34:59 Damm: http://pastie.org/312796 Nov 12 03:35:28 DJTachyon, depending how old the tower is.. the lease was never updated Nov 12 03:35:29 DJTachyon, yeah.. tmo still uses omnipoint in name for alot of shit Nov 12 03:35:45 melvinram, you run 64bit windows? Nov 12 03:35:49 apparently :) Nov 12 03:35:52 yep Nov 12 03:35:52 well clearly you do from that message Nov 12 03:35:58 time to install 32bit windows Nov 12 03:36:03 There are townships that never heard of t-mobile Nov 12 03:36:07 ehh no thanks Nov 12 03:36:13 when you roam in them, it says Omnipoint Nov 12 03:36:20 i'll just pass on tinkering with Android Nov 12 03:36:24 is there even adb driver for 64bit? Nov 12 03:36:32 last I heard no Nov 12 03:36:34 even their billing still says omnipoint Nov 12 03:36:38 hehe Nov 12 03:36:43 I have no idea Nov 12 03:36:53 languish, just like they still have the old stuff in their systems that call themselves voicestream Nov 12 03:36:55 no adb driver for windows 64-bit. Nov 12 03:37:03 well ill set a google calendar reminder to call again tomorrow morning Nov 12 03:37:04 so melvinram's boned. Nov 12 03:37:39 apparentlyy Nov 12 03:37:42 don't feel bad the ppc users are screaming also. Nov 12 03:38:24 i have another machine ... might give it a swing over there Nov 12 03:38:34 but thats dumb Nov 12 03:38:41 melvinram, that or loadup vmware and ubuntu 32bit Nov 12 03:39:04 tried that on my machine but it didnt work Nov 12 03:39:15 well i tried it with virtualbox Nov 12 03:39:28 well ddms should, as long as you connect your phone in... if your using the emulator it should be a snap Nov 12 03:39:35 adb devices should show the emulator. Nov 12 03:39:36 if I make it to this weekend with no info on the order, I am going to the store and demanding a replacement Nov 12 03:39:59 no i couldn't install ubuntu 32bit Nov 12 03:40:45 Hey. Nov 12 03:40:58 I need a way to do an HTTP request that times out if it is not answered within a certain amount of time. Any ideas? Nov 12 03:40:59 sup ttuttle Nov 12 03:41:03 Damm: Not much. Nov 12 03:44:52 Question: If a location provider is not working, does it "pile up" expected updates and then spam you with them? Because I registered a gps LocationListener with 15 second interval, and I'm getting one every second or so after the GPS was off for a while. Nov 12 03:45:24 anyone interested in making a bid for some "rather simple" sidework? Nov 12 03:46:33 spackest1, on android or? Nov 12 03:46:54 oh, .ut Nov 12 03:46:56 sorry Nov 12 03:47:41 I avoid doing business with mormon country. No offense. Just too many headaches in the past couple of years from out that way Nov 12 03:47:55 and yet I use t-mobile Nov 12 03:47:58 *sigh* Nov 12 03:48:07 you don't like Mormons or Germans? Nov 12 03:48:17 languish: yeah, android and yes, I live in good old utah Nov 12 03:48:23 does that show up somewhere? Nov 12 03:48:30 spackest1: in your hostname Nov 12 03:48:35 ah Nov 12 03:48:50 you're also called judi :-) Nov 12 03:48:54 I don't like overly polite, completely useless self-righteous assholes trying to rip me off in the name of jesus Nov 12 03:48:55 I see there is googleearth for iphone, is one coming for android as well? Nov 12 03:49:01 that's the mrs Nov 12 03:49:08 only have one though :) Nov 12 03:49:46 languish: perhaps a rather broad swipe, but there you go Nov 12 03:49:47 I have friends in Utah, I'm just no longer doing business if possible with randoms from the region. Nov 12 03:49:47 * michaelnovakjr_ smells a new yorker in here Nov 12 03:50:00 :D Nov 12 03:50:18 languish: so, out of interest, how do you connect utah with t-mobile? Nov 12 03:50:28 native New Yorkers in NYC, tend tend to be very helpful people. Nov 12 03:50:31 I think I need to just get in there and cut some code Nov 12 03:50:51 * michaelnovakjr_ is a native new yorker Nov 12 03:50:59 Leeds, the majority of T-mobiles upper echelons, including the CEO are devout mormons. Nov 12 03:51:04 Mostly from Utah Nov 12 03:51:17 except for the face that it's a German company? Nov 12 03:51:22 morons Nov 12 03:51:23 fact Nov 12 03:51:23 get it right Nov 12 03:51:25 Leeds, no it's not Nov 12 03:51:30 Okay, I made some progress Nov 12 03:51:38 Leeds, Deutchekom owns a 20% holding in the company Nov 12 03:51:47 tmo USA is not directly run from germany, and the CEO of tmo USA did do his pilgramage in germany :) Nov 12 03:51:47 pardon my obvious incorrect spelling Nov 12 03:52:00 okay... t-mobile globally is a German company Nov 12 03:52:04 I got SWT for vista64 from http://forum.vuze.com/thread.jspa?threadID=63569&tstart=0 Nov 12 03:52:14 Damn, wasn't it a 30% holding they got smacked down for recently because it's more than the legal limit for a foreign interest? Nov 12 03:52:22 :D Nov 12 03:52:31 ah, good old American closed markets Nov 12 03:52:42 languish, yes they had 30%, they could only have 20% Nov 12 03:52:52 Leeds, you think the German market, or Japanese, or most European markets are any less closed? Nov 12 03:53:06 the european markets are relatively open to each other, yes Nov 12 03:53:08 One way, or another, they're gonna getcha... Nov 12 03:53:25 Leeds, that's like saying most US states are open to eachother Nov 12 03:53:34 nope Nov 12 03:53:37 anyway, very off-topic Nov 12 03:53:47 started with you refusing to take work from someone in Utah :-P Nov 12 03:54:03 And in reality, in European countries do a great deal of balancing at the state level Nov 12 03:54:07 in/;the Nov 12 03:54:13 betting I couldn't really afford folks chilling in here anyway Nov 12 03:54:25 state as in Country/governmental Nov 12 03:54:46 spackest1: what do you actually need doing, anyway? not that I've done any android development - yet Nov 12 03:54:58 spackest1, don't mind me :) I just had to fire a client from Utah for trying to push their values on my business Nov 12 03:55:03 ..yet again. Nov 12 03:55:28 And oddly enough, I was trying to do something lawfully, that they didn't want us to. Nov 12 03:56:15 pretty much typical of Utah Nov 12 03:56:32 (excuse me, I was trying to hire people fairly, with no prejudice towards race, sex or sexual orientation, andf they didn't like it) Nov 12 03:56:35 melvinram, you could just run 32bit java instead of 64bit. You still lack the adb driver. Nov 12 03:56:46 that wouldn't work Nov 12 03:56:53 well ddms would work Nov 12 03:56:59 but it still won't do much Nov 12 03:57:14 I have a free hosting site that can accept photos via email, so I want folks to be able to easily email photos to their website from a google phone Nov 12 03:57:23 ddms working now Nov 12 03:57:32 with the 64bit SWT Nov 12 03:57:39 from http://forum.vuze.com/thread.jspa?threadID=63569&tstart=0 Nov 12 03:57:48 spackest1, there's an app that does that now, for googles photo site. I wonder if the code is open source. Nov 12 03:57:56 That would help you Nov 12 03:58:22 but it doesn't show any devices/emulators Nov 12 03:58:51 spackest1, but if you want people to bid on the job, put it up on one of the coding bid sites. If you want someone in an irc channel to do it for you, you have to make a solid offer and let people deicde for themselves if they consider it fair. Nov 12 03:59:09 *decide Nov 12 03:59:51 spackest1: so you want something which will generate and send an email with specific headers and an attachment? Nov 12 04:01:30 Leeds: the user need to auth against my web service and then send their photos to a special email address Nov 12 04:01:51 but the email or headers aren't special Nov 12 04:03:00 not special, but specific Nov 12 04:03:06 i.e. to a specific address Nov 12 04:03:44 yes Nov 12 04:04:13 wouldn't work Nov 12 04:04:24 I just blowfish a short string, and their user id with a key to generate an email address Nov 12 04:04:31 just kind of long Nov 12 04:04:39 i give up... closing eclipse and just putting it aside Nov 12 04:05:06 it does appear that there is no library support for sending emails... Nov 12 04:05:29 ok what site should i got to to browse apps that aren't in the marketplace? Nov 12 04:06:57 wastrel: it's called 'the internet' Nov 12 04:07:24 wastrel code.google.com/android Nov 12 04:07:28 err Nov 12 04:07:32 ya Nov 12 04:08:19 Leeds: what applicaion are you looking for that's not on the marketplace yet? Nov 12 04:08:36 mmm that reminds me Nov 12 04:08:42 fbreader, this morning... Nov 12 04:08:55 is there a method for saving messages from the messaging aop? Nov 12 04:08:56 the point of the marketplace is to gather together applications... otherwise they can be on any website Nov 12 04:09:10 i want a good podcasting program Nov 12 04:09:15 and a wordpress app Nov 12 04:09:23 and FACEBOOK app Nov 12 04:09:29 podcast maker or downloader/player? Nov 12 04:09:32 fbreader is on the market now Nov 12 04:09:33 ? Nov 12 04:09:36 downloader Nov 12 04:09:39 player Nov 12 04:09:54 i got one but it's not nice n slick Nov 12 04:10:02 wastrel: is it? Nov 12 04:10:10 melvinram some exist, but they're still in development, I would call them "ok" but will wait for them to be "good" Nov 12 04:10:12 no i misunderstood you Nov 12 04:10:39 wastrel: I have no idea what you're talking about :-) Nov 12 04:10:57 wordpress... that's what every G1 user needs Nov 12 04:11:06 ffs, i'm waiting for a blogger.com option Nov 12 04:11:17 damn, so am I Nov 12 04:11:18 fbreader is rather disappointing at this point in time. Nov 12 04:11:19 and Google Reader Nov 12 04:11:42 Google Reader works in the G1 Nov 12 04:11:45 wastrel: I intend to try to help do something about that Nov 12 04:11:50 I'm waiting for blogger and grandcentral apps o come from google. Nov 12 04:11:51 and feedburner... sucks Nov 12 04:11:53 yea but it's slow Nov 12 04:11:57 the google reader mobile site is great Nov 12 04:11:58 since its off the web Nov 12 04:12:04 google reader mobile is fine Nov 12 04:12:11 its not bad... wouldn't say its great Nov 12 04:12:14 I don't 'get' the iphone version, but it seems to work Nov 12 04:12:28 I wouldn't say I agree with you melvinram. Nov 12 04:12:39 I also *need* LOCAL versions, for when I'm in a dead zone, no signal. Nov 12 04:12:46 hi guys, are here any more android phones coming up? Nov 12 04:12:59 ZXCZXC: nope, there's only going to be one Nov 12 04:13:01 oh yay Nov 12 04:13:09 languish: isn't that what google gears is for? Nov 12 04:13:09 Leeds, no way! Nov 12 04:13:11 LOCAL yes Nov 12 04:13:18 offline content pls subway anyone Nov 12 04:13:21 subway ffs Nov 12 04:13:31 Leeds, I don't know, is it? Can you show it to me? On the G1 please. Nov 12 04:13:32 heh, we get signal in the subway here :-) Nov 12 04:13:34 also lost data today in NYC Nov 12 04:13:36 Gmail works great offline :) Nov 12 04:13:45 cbeust_ :) Nov 12 04:13:49 languish: did you lose data? no E or 3g Nov 12 04:13:53 melvinram: tried the new wordpress app on the market? Nov 12 04:13:59 languish: sure, pop into my office Nov 12 04:14:03 fyi: subway Nov 12 04:14:07 did they add it today? Nov 12 04:14:19 wastrel, no.. my connection was fine today. My wife lost connection because of that f'ing T-Mobile hotspot app, even though wifi was off. Nov 12 04:14:24 ya wptogo Nov 12 04:14:38 Leeds, just give me the .apk or what have you :) Nov 12 04:14:55 so I can have it on, *my* G1, which is the point. Nov 12 04:15:04 languish: it's built-in Nov 12 04:15:18 unfortunately, google reader seems to be sending me to the iphone version :-( Nov 12 04:15:23 Leeds, oh.. so there's an offline blogger app using gears built in? Nov 12 04:15:32 :| Nov 12 04:15:37 no, google reader - I never said anything about blogger Nov 12 04:15:42 sorry people, I forgot to add the sarcasm tags Nov 12 04:16:09 right, ok then, google reader. offine? and available on a non hacked G1? Nov 12 04:16:13 So my wife can use it? Nov 12 04:16:19 :| Nov 12 04:16:34 it *should* work, as long as you can get it to give you the full site rather than a mobile or iphone version Nov 12 04:17:37 unfortunately, it's refusing to go there for me Nov 12 04:17:57 Hey does anyone know if the apps I've downloaded already will require me to buy them after Jan? Nov 12 04:18:13 Or if I've got them already, it's mine to keep? Nov 12 04:18:18 melvinram: Depends on the app, but probably not Nov 12 04:18:24 melvinram, some will, some won't. If they state they're time-limited, they will. Nov 12 04:18:38 If they're beta, or just say "free" then no Nov 12 04:18:53 just be careful of the ones that auto-update :) Nov 12 04:19:24 Like, pac-man will keep working. It's free. :) Nov 12 04:19:35 sweet Nov 12 04:19:38 i love pacman Nov 12 04:19:43 Just don't remove it Nov 12 04:19:46 * RyeBrye sucks miserably at pacman Nov 12 04:19:51 It may not be free to re-download forever Nov 12 04:19:57 haha me too RyeBrye Nov 12 04:20:10 Though I don't know if google made a deal to keep it free. Nov 12 04:20:20 hey Nov 12 04:20:25 sup st0ned Nov 12 04:20:27 ok so i see tomorrow is the 12th Nov 12 04:20:29 sup Nov 12 04:20:40 I'm surprised at how few games that don't suck people have made. I guess people are holding back games to sell later? Nov 12 04:20:54 There isn't even a decent brickbreaker Nov 12 04:21:06 RyeBrye, or it just takes time to make good games, particularly on an incomplete platform Nov 12 04:21:07 so i guess its time to get on with rooting my phone before i can slapped with rc30 Nov 12 04:21:07 my screen 1 has games & entertainment stuff, screen 2 is daily usage stuff (like email) and screen 3 is utilities ... like alarm, file manager, settings, etc Nov 12 04:21:10 where do i read? Nov 12 04:21:31 d0nets download-dls.com/wiki Nov 12 04:21:35 err Nov 12 04:21:40 android-dls.com/wiki Nov 12 04:21:43 my bad :) Nov 12 04:21:43 oh yes, where you told me before Nov 12 04:21:45 ;) Nov 12 04:21:48 yes, :P Nov 12 04:21:54 darkrift's forums Nov 12 04:21:57 yes Nov 12 04:22:11 the guy that came up with the hacked RC30 editied part of it too Nov 12 04:22:16 i got busy with school Nov 12 04:22:27 right thats what someone just said in efnet #android Nov 12 04:22:30 hence why i came here Nov 12 04:22:33 heh Nov 12 04:23:31 if you reset your phone to defaults will you go back to rc29, or will you stay at 30? Nov 12 04:23:36 efnet is bad Nov 12 04:23:51 mattgyver83, if you follow the directions correctly, you'll stay at RC30 Nov 12 04:24:02 i'm sad, I didn't know about rooting until after I upgraded to RC30 Nov 12 04:24:20 i upgraded to rc30 Nov 12 04:25:02 MichaelJE2: get over it Nov 12 04:25:14 ... Nov 12 04:25:18 yes, I know Nov 12 04:25:32 I'll just wait for a new root techneque Nov 12 04:25:44 y? Nov 12 04:25:49 wastrel efnet aint so bad Nov 12 04:26:00 once you get past the trolls and spam Nov 12 04:26:04 and chan takeovers Nov 12 04:26:08 and E balls Nov 12 04:26:08 ... Nov 12 04:27:51 I've been on efnet since it was just a few servers in finland Nov 12 04:27:57 before it was efnet :/ Nov 12 04:28:07 funet ftw Nov 12 04:28:43 f u too Nov 12 04:30:05 Leeds: did you get it to compile? Nov 12 04:30:18 wastrel: haven't tried yet Nov 12 04:31:43 is there any reasonably-complete changelog for the OTA updates? Nov 12 04:32:21 nope Nov 12 04:32:27 not even close to complete Nov 12 04:33:08 always good to hear that for an open source project Nov 12 04:34:27 it has nothing to do with being open source :) Nov 12 04:34:38 ... what romainguy__ said. Nov 12 04:34:47 huh? Nov 12 04:34:58 Bad documentation is tightly connected to open source projects, though Nov 12 04:35:10 (obviously, Android is an exception :D)) Nov 12 04:35:17 cbeust_: -bad+no Nov 12 04:35:25 I was trying to be nice. Nov 12 04:35:28 I'm not defending the lack of changelogs Nov 12 04:35:32 hi Nov 12 04:35:46 but using the argument of "it's supposed to be open" for *everything* is a bit dishonest imo :) Nov 12 04:40:20 obviously there is a disconnect between android-the-open-source-platform and android-the-thing-running-on-my-G1... not a criticism, just an observation Nov 12 04:40:21 i look at android as a WIP. Nov 12 04:40:30 a year from now it will be 500000x better Nov 12 04:40:34 and we won't remember how bad it was Nov 12 04:40:39 Leeds: which is what's we've been saying for a while :) Nov 12 04:40:51 however if you can fix my phone so it stops crashing in the meantime whenever my servers go down... that would be great. Nov 12 04:40:58 it seems Messaging can't handle Nagios real well Nov 12 04:41:14 k a bunch of warnings but fbreader builds Nov 12 04:41:16 me and my coworker have threads that are 300+ with our girlfriends, but hit 10 nagios texts and it starts to get buck wild Nov 12 04:41:25 Damm: high quality patches are always welcome :) Nov 12 04:41:37 romainguy__, eh i'm not a java guy, but I may have to. Nov 12 04:42:49 it's prolly the mime parser Nov 12 04:43:08 trying to think the texts are more then they are... lol Nov 12 04:46:25 what does holding the ball-scrolly-wheel do when turning on the phone? it makes the alert light turn blue for me Nov 12 04:50:37 does it still boot to the homescreen? Nov 12 04:50:51 MichaelJE2 : no clue - blue light special? Nov 12 04:52:27 menu key = safe mode Nov 12 04:52:30 i know that much Nov 12 04:53:47 the trackball + power key just puts it in blue light mode Nov 12 04:55:40 heh Nov 12 04:55:47 blue light mode eh? Nov 12 04:55:47 blue light special? Nov 12 04:55:48 lol Nov 12 04:56:00 yeah.. try it out - no clue what it is doing Nov 12 04:56:22 I tried it on mine, cant figure out how to get it to boot after that. Nov 12 04:56:37 Yeah, I think you have to pull the battery Nov 12 04:56:49 Wonder what thats about Nov 12 04:56:56 cant find anything on google about it Nov 12 04:58:05 you expect to find something about google software on google? Nov 12 04:58:07 how dare you Nov 12 04:59:23 actually it is kinda ironic, the android devel stuff is behind a passowrd Nov 12 04:59:28 and the included search engine sucks rocks Nov 12 05:00:22 password? Nov 12 05:07:56 no clue Nov 12 05:08:22 requires a google login (free for the asking) Nov 12 05:08:40 Taking out the battery resets it, not sure what that did though. Anyone else notice the small black sticker that says void on the phone when you open it though? Nov 12 05:09:24 pretty common Nov 12 05:09:31 as well as small white ones that turn a color when wet Nov 12 05:12:52 yup Nov 12 05:14:43 this one prolly turns white Nov 12 05:14:51 but typically it's white and turns pink and under the battery Nov 12 05:14:54 the battery also has one Nov 12 05:14:59 are there any docs describing how to transfer files to an android device? Nov 12 05:15:28 easy way? mount it via usb Nov 12 05:15:33 if you wanna get kinky, adb push Nov 12 05:16:22 don't i need drivers for the usb? Nov 12 05:16:36 nah, it's USB Storage. Nov 12 05:16:45 if you want to use adb, yes you need the driver. Nov 12 05:16:55 unless you run on a mac/linux Nov 12 05:16:59 i'm on windows and it doesn't recognize the device Nov 12 05:17:00 then your fine Nov 12 05:17:06 what version of windows? Nov 12 05:17:10 xp prof Nov 12 05:17:15 using usb Nov 12 05:17:18 then it's wanting the ADB Driver Nov 12 05:17:22 have to enable usb Nov 12 05:17:34 crap. i think i need to enable usb Nov 12 05:17:36 on the phone. Nov 12 05:17:42 ok hold up Nov 12 05:18:01 g1er, lol i forgot about that. Nov 12 05:18:05 been awhile since I ran RC19 Nov 12 05:18:56 me too now :) still lookingfor away to keep it enabled on 30 :/ Nov 12 05:18:58 rc19 just offers a mount as soon as you connect, there's no notification or query Nov 12 05:19:35 but in settings USB storage must be enabled, or it asksfor drivers Nov 12 05:20:01 right for adb Nov 12 05:20:21 ya, :/ had the same issue my first time... Nov 12 05:20:33 * Damm didn't Nov 12 05:21:16 i'm only guessing, I haven't touched Windows in 4+years Nov 12 05:21:55 ok its not working still Nov 12 05:22:11 anyone had issues with busybox? im running as root, trying to create a nod in /dev with busy box, but i get a permission denied error Nov 12 05:22:24 system tray popup shows android, but it still requesting driver Nov 12 05:22:27 did you check in in settings Nov 12 05:22:27 ls Nov 12 05:22:45 aggtrfrad, you're not the onlu one Nov 12 05:23:05 sal323, sorry, I'm a bit late, but you installed the windows drivers, right? Nov 12 05:23:07 g1er: applications->dev, right? Nov 12 05:23:23 so there are windows drivers? Nov 12 05:23:35 I think it under SDcard & system memory Nov 12 05:23:36 which busybox? Nov 12 05:23:48 its* Nov 12 05:24:10 sal323, yeah, there's a zip on the android site Nov 12 05:24:20 ah Nov 12 05:24:36 sal323, http://dl.google.com/android/android_usb_windows.zip Nov 12 05:24:45 hm i just ran an app with busybox, and then ran ps from my device, seems like busybox runs as "app_33", not root Nov 12 05:25:40 odd tho, I didn't need the drivers once usb was enabled. until tinkering with the sdk. Nov 12 05:25:50 Anyone from Google here? Nov 12 05:26:00 hello folks Nov 12 05:26:06 there are a few google people around Nov 12 05:26:06 g1er, I'm not on windows, just going from the site: http://code.google.com/android/intro/develop-and-debug.html#developingondevicehardware Nov 12 05:26:27 i am :( Nov 12 05:26:31 KNY: ty. will try it now Nov 12 05:26:45 On the installation page (http://code.google.com/android/intro/installing.html), you guys need to change the URL to http://dl-ssl.google.com/android/eclipse/site.xml because your existing link doesn't work Nov 12 05:26:54 lol, both phones have been pnp for me on xp-home Nov 12 05:27:18 This is under the Installing the Eclipse Plugin (ADT) section Nov 12 05:27:27 er, minus my first issue, Nov 12 05:28:39 this is an android internals question: when i modify the java in frameworks/base/services how can i get these changes into the emulator withou rebuilding the entire source Nov 12 05:29:24 issuing an 'mm' at this level generates a new services.jar file. is it sufficient to just mkyaffs2 again on the system directory? Nov 12 05:30:22 Anyone know who dev'd NutroLog? Nov 12 05:31:28 languish: why not just go to the app and click "email the developers" and see where the email points to Nov 12 05:32:02 ok the driver and it says device is ready but windows explorer still is not recognizing the drive/device. will reboot xp to fix. :) be back Nov 12 05:32:37 err installed the driver Nov 12 05:33:51 melvinram, I just dropped them a msg on their blog Nov 12 05:34:04 but I was wondering if they were lurking :) so many do Nov 12 05:34:15 so has anyone noticed that http://translate.google.com is broken/unusable in android's browser? Nov 12 05:34:35 ieatlint, many google properties are. Nov 12 05:34:41 has anyone messed with internals in here? Nov 12 05:35:19 that somehow seems impressive, especially for what should be a simple site Nov 12 05:35:44 languish: its someone with the email of taraskovtun@gmail.com Nov 12 05:36:29 melvinram :) thanks. I'll give that a shot if they don't respond on the blog Nov 12 05:37:14 My other question of the night is.. Is there a way to back-up messages in the messaging app? Nov 12 05:37:15 languish: seems like its this fella http://www.blogger.com/profile/13398992782366962366 Nov 12 05:37:50 melvinram, yep :) I left him a question here http://nutrolog.blogspot.com/ Nov 12 05:37:53 i should be a detective Nov 12 05:37:59 :D Nov 12 05:39:00 Figured out 'blue light' mode yet? ^^ Nov 12 05:39:16 i'm back Nov 12 05:39:32 Attention ALL devs. Please, PLEASE keep in mind that sometimes a device needs to be master reset. If your app stores data, include a way to back up that data, for reinstallation later. Nov 12 05:39:36 :| Nov 12 05:40:00 even the notepad apps! Nov 12 05:40:03 :) Nov 12 05:40:16 languish, that was the first thing I wrote in my app Nov 12 05:40:23 though at least with those, copy/paste to an email can be done Nov 12 05:40:27 KNY :) Nov 12 05:40:30 which app? Nov 12 05:40:33 * languish forgetful Nov 12 05:40:35 well, second, because testing was a huge PITA without it Nov 12 05:40:38 Mileage Nov 12 05:40:39 heh Nov 12 05:40:40 ahh Nov 12 05:40:41 nod Nov 12 05:41:03 I must be getting tired, I'm becomming a carrige return warrior Nov 12 05:41:15 you can import/export in three flavors, no less :) Nov 12 05:41:20 heh Nov 12 05:41:23 suhweet Nov 12 05:41:37 i just got updated from rc19 right to rc30 Nov 12 05:41:56 michaelnovakjr, did you install/want to install ? Nov 12 05:42:04 yep Nov 12 05:42:09 :) Nov 12 05:42:20 modded or tmo? Nov 12 05:42:25 actually sergey showed up at my doorstep with a knife and a zip file Nov 12 05:42:26 I was glad to get RC30 to get rid of that stupid console bug :) Nov 12 05:42:29 "got updated" must be OTA Nov 12 05:42:29 what was i supposed to do? Nov 12 05:42:54 michaelnovakjr, press his "later" button, then go in to his cache, and delete him Nov 12 05:43:02 michaelnovakjr_, pull out a gun and a .tar.gz? Nov 12 05:43:03 haha Nov 12 05:43:03 :| Nov 12 05:43:09 :) Nov 12 05:45:10 can you use setContentView(R.id.mytextViewID);? If not how to you display on a diffrent element? Nov 12 05:46:45 afsd3, eh? Nov 12 05:48:02 I'm trying to display two texts outputs to the screen and I created a new TextView in main.xml but I don't know how to tell TextView to output to that element Nov 12 05:48:39 you just define them both in your layout (probably main.xml) Nov 12 05:48:59 simplified, but: Nov 12 05:49:04 look through some of the API demos Nov 12 05:49:04 yeah I got that done Nov 12 05:49:33 but I don't know how to tell my code to display to that certain element Nov 12 05:49:59 I'm still not understanding what you mean by "display to that element" Nov 12 05:50:48 okay in my main.xml, I have a in my code how do I tell it to output to that element? Nov 12 05:51:09 setContentView(R.id.test); ? Nov 12 05:51:19 you're still phrasing it the same way... are you trying to write text into that TextView? Nov 12 05:51:26 yeah Nov 12 05:51:34 findViewById() Nov 12 05:53:16 ah okay thanks KNY Nov 12 05:53:23 why doesn't page layout change automatically when i put rotate the tmobg1 phone? I believe it can detect such action. Nov 12 05:54:50 orci, I used "sensor" but that's based on accelerometer Nov 12 05:55:01 is that what you're trying to do? Nov 12 05:56:16 KNY, sensor is an app? Nov 12 05:56:23 android:screenOrientation="sensor" Nov 12 05:56:39 in my AndroidManifest.xml Nov 12 05:57:05 I was wondering if tmobg1 could change the layout from landscape to other layout automatically when the user rotates the phone Nov 12 05:57:38 i'm trying to install mod rc30 but i'm not sure how i'm suppose to get root shell Nov 12 05:57:45 adb shell is not root Nov 12 05:57:49 orci, that's what that line does Nov 12 05:58:06 sal323, on that wiki there's a link on how to get it Nov 12 05:58:11 sal323, http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Rooting_Android Nov 12 05:58:29 KNY, would this not be correct? View test = findViewById(R.id.Vtime); Nov 12 05:58:29 setContentView(test); Nov 12 05:58:37 ops sorry about that line spam Nov 12 05:58:45 KNY, how can I edit any of system files? I believe AndroidManifest.xml is a system file? Nov 12 05:58:49 afsd3, no, that would not be right. Nov 12 05:59:12 orci, are you trying to do this for every application? Nov 12 05:59:22 KNY, yes? Nov 12 05:59:22 or just for one that you are writing? Nov 12 05:59:32 KNY, i am a suer actually Nov 12 05:59:34 user Nov 12 05:59:42 orci, you can't. It's up to the application's author to add that functionality Nov 12 05:59:44 KNY, argh, could you easily explain what I should do? Nov 12 06:00:16 afsd3, TextView tv = (TextView) findViewById(R.id.some_text_view); tv.setText(R.string.mytext); Nov 12 06:00:21 woo hoo got the SDK to work Nov 12 06:00:31 afsd3, please read the documentation; it's all there :) Nov 12 06:00:31 KNY, ah ok but why don't they add this func ? I never saw this feature Nov 12 06:00:39 KNY, which is your app? Nov 12 06:00:43 Mileage Nov 12 06:00:54 hey I have that :) Nov 12 06:00:56 KNY, thanks so much I'm learning =) Would I look under TextView? or? Nov 12 06:00:59 under the docs Nov 12 06:01:07 afsd3, I believe it's under Activity Nov 12 06:01:11 orci, glad to hear it :) Nov 12 06:01:13 ah okay thanks Nov 12 06:01:21 KNY, but it does not rotate automatically either though Nov 12 06:01:33 kny oh wait it does Nov 12 06:01:34 if you turn your phone sideways it will Nov 12 06:01:35 :) Nov 12 06:02:19 afsd3, http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/app/Activity.html#findViewById(int) Nov 12 06:02:22 i wonder why Google didn't build the automatic flip feature into the system Nov 12 06:02:29 KNY, it would be nice to be able to remove antries as well Nov 12 06:02:35 KNY, thanks so much ill read that now Nov 12 06:02:35 afsd3, also, look through the API demos: there are a lot of examples Nov 12 06:02:47 orci, select it from the history, hit Menu, hit delete Nov 12 06:02:53 KNY, there is just the notepad and the space game right? Nov 12 06:03:06 melvinram: seemed like it was a rush, just didn't make the first cut Nov 12 06:03:14 melvinram, well, I assume not everyone wants their application to automatically rotate Nov 12 06:03:34 though yes, it would be nice to be on by default Nov 12 06:03:59 why not... if you're looking at it sideways, no advantage showing a screen that is vertical Nov 12 06:04:13 spikebike: ya it was probably due to rush Nov 12 06:04:18 KNY, I had reinstalled your app to remove an entry I guess I am losing my geeky status Nov 12 06:04:22 :) Nov 12 06:04:22 not every application has a concept of "vertical". Many games, for example. Nov 12 06:04:25 the hardware's capable Nov 12 06:04:26 orci, haha. Nov 12 06:04:55 orci, should have sent me an email first Nov 12 06:05:04 well, sure. Maybe have the automatic flip built into their apps... like gmail Nov 12 06:05:22 or even the home screen Nov 12 06:05:51 don't get me wrong; I think they should have included it in a lot more apps, but definitely not make it a system-wide requirement Nov 12 06:06:20 well, maybe a system-wide feature that can easily be turned off Nov 12 06:06:33 or easily turned on Nov 12 06:06:55 (not by the user... but by the developer) Nov 12 06:07:14 Automatic flip was not included because it doesn't work well in practice Nov 12 06:07:29 yeah it works so poorly for the iphone ;-) Nov 12 06:07:30 cbeust: programming wise or usage wise? Nov 12 06:07:35 Usage wise Nov 12 06:07:44 It's not reliable on horizontal surfaces Nov 12 06:07:55 nor next to magnetic fields (such as 30' monitors :) ) Nov 12 06:08:08 and sometimes, it just rotates when you don't want it to Nov 12 06:08:37 melvinram, it already can be very easily turned on by the developer Nov 12 06:08:56 KNY: automatic flip or user selected flip? Nov 12 06:09:12 accelerometer-based Nov 12 06:09:28 KNY: so if i turn it sideways? Nov 12 06:09:31 yes Nov 12 06:09:38 oh okay Nov 12 06:09:46 wonder why more dev are not doing it Nov 12 06:09:49 it's a one-line change to your app to add the functionality Nov 12 06:10:08 well, then you have to do twice as much UI testing to make sure it's usable :) Nov 12 06:10:20 KNY: it is, and it's one line you quickly remove after a few users start playing with it Nov 12 06:10:54 cbeust, depends on the application, I suppose Nov 12 06:10:59 cbeust: really? how come iphone makes it work easily? Nov 12 06:11:08 *remove easily Nov 12 06:11:22 I do java programming but do not know gui programming, is android gui easier than regular java gui? or the same thing? Nov 12 06:11:23 melvinram, my iPod touch doesn't rotate all apps Nov 12 06:11:27 melvinram: have you tried the auto flip on the iPhone on a flat surface? Nov 12 06:11:33 orci, about the same, just different Nov 12 06:12:00 any java gui pointers for a starter? Nov 12 06:12:00 why would you do it on a flat surface? Nov 12 06:12:29 orci: general Java GUI or Android GUI? Nov 12 06:12:30 cbeust, it does not work Nov 12 06:12:39 wouldn't the compass help make it work on a flat surface with the G1? Nov 12 06:12:48 cbeust, whichever would make more sense to start with Nov 12 06:13:12 RyeBrye, what does the compass have to do with it? Nov 12 06:13:18 I don't want my GUI to face North Nov 12 06:13:20 orci: if you want to do android development, our docs are probably a good starting point and I wouldn't bother with AWT/Swing Nov 12 06:13:20 :) Nov 12 06:13:47 the direction woldnt matter, just the degree of the turn Nov 12 06:13:49 You can assume the phone vertical alignment is correct when it is held and then hold that direction as "up" when you put it on a flat surface Nov 12 06:14:07 eg, its pointing north, then its pointing west, that would say it went from portrait to landscape Nov 12 06:14:07 and then when you rotate 90 degrees - it rotates the screen... not too hard Nov 12 06:14:13 http://code.google.com/android/devel/implementing-ui.html ? Nov 12 06:14:17 cbeust, Nov 12 06:14:35 RyeBrye, but the issue is that if the surface isn't *quite* flat then the average becomes more sideways than vertical Nov 12 06:14:38 and the app flips Nov 12 06:15:07 hmm Nov 12 06:15:37 for obvious situations though, it should autoflip Nov 12 06:16:16 well, as the pidgin team would say: "patches welcome", I suppose Nov 12 06:16:58 I'm just getting started so i can't do anything yet :D Nov 12 06:18:09 Has anyone bought this yet? http://www.pragprog.com/titles/eband/hello-android If so, watcha think of it? Nov 12 06:18:14 hmm.. tricorder??? Nov 12 06:20:47 leeds: You around ? We used to chat at #handhelds... Nov 12 06:21:14 hey mirov :-) Nov 12 06:21:53 pm me, I can't remember how to do it... Nov 12 06:21:57 finally someone shipped a real Linuxphone, eh? :-) Nov 12 06:24:06 heh Nov 12 06:24:07 sort of Nov 12 06:24:17 not like they haven't been shipping by the million Nov 12 06:24:28 just not to the old USA... sadly Nov 12 06:24:31 not open ones Nov 12 06:24:36 g1 is not open Nov 12 06:24:44 trav! Nov 12 06:24:47 hola Nov 12 06:24:58 it's a hell of a lot more open than any other mass-market Linuxphone Nov 12 06:25:04 like the freerunner? Nov 12 06:25:14 spikebike: he said *functional* Nov 12 06:25:19 a1200 then Nov 12 06:25:32 a1200 is a lot more locked down than the G1 Nov 12 06:25:47 I am in those parts of the world you are referring to... Nov 12 06:26:02 kinda ironic how motorola complains about not selling phones Nov 12 06:26:11 and how g1 is getting all this press Nov 12 06:26:31 they could have shipping a decent phone at basically no cost a good while ago Nov 12 06:27:35 so now they are hiring 300 more engineers and investing in android Nov 12 06:27:46 if only they had shipped what they already had Nov 12 06:28:03 how does one go about putting long-press context menus on a ListActivity? Nov 12 06:28:15 I'm looking through the Contacts app source and can't see how they do it Nov 12 06:28:34 anyone compile android from source in here and want to start a lively discussion? :) Nov 12 06:29:01 implements View.OnCreateContextMenuListener Nov 12 06:29:02 bingo Nov 12 06:29:33 is mv supported without busybox? Nov 12 06:30:19 ya Nov 12 06:32:36 on my phone many apps crash frequently, may there be something wrong with my setup? or is it because android is not very stable yet? Nov 12 06:32:56 orci: apps that you installed? Nov 12 06:33:24 stanter, about what specifically? Nov 12 06:33:25 cbeust, not sure, but I get that message com.... app has crashed message Nov 12 06:33:38 may be couple of times a day Nov 12 06:33:40 I can get some apps to crash if it's loading something big and you start hitting buttons like home, back, and end really fast Nov 12 06:33:45 The G1 should be stable without any installed app Nov 12 06:34:00 orci, if it's a com.android.* message, then be worried Nov 12 06:34:14 Fnord: the build system, edit recompile cycles, minimal recompile, testing internals changes Nov 12 06:34:33 cbeust, what happens is that I lose all the icons on the desktop for a while, then they come back Nov 12 06:34:57 KNY, I'll be checking the message more carefully next time Nov 12 06:35:26 schedule of events tomorrow when I get home with new g1's: 1. disconnect dsl so no updates over wifi ( we dont have service at house ) 2. power on phones, start telnetd 3. get root using adb port forward ( i've got driver dl'ed ) 4. mv otacerts.zip 5. reconnect dsl 6. update to mod'ed rc30 Nov 12 06:35:28 it is mostly something like com....home... I believe Nov 12 06:36:06 I've not had the time to really get into that, other than bits and pieces that I've messed with out of need. The build system annoys me though Nov 12 06:36:24 is there any benefit of manually mod'ing rc30 VS using premodded? Nov 12 06:37:06 Zigner, you know what's been done to your phone Nov 12 06:37:12 Fnord^: some of the dependencies are unclear to me. it is hard to figure out which project need to be remade when i modify a particular file Nov 12 06:37:36 I'm kind of ashamed I don't know this off the top of my head, but what's the internal storage on the G1? Nov 12 06:37:41 well, this is all pending that its still < rc30 Nov 12 06:37:43 microsd Nov 12 06:37:46 I've not even poked at the java code yet ... isn't that all signed on g1? Nov 12 06:38:05 umdk1d3, I meant the capacity. And not the SD Nov 12 06:38:08 If not maybe I should rebuild pesteractivity >.> Nov 12 06:38:09 the internal flash Nov 12 06:38:23 does anyone have any details on why modifying the mini-RC30 (4MBish) patch is said to fail (and brick phones)? Nov 12 06:38:25 it might be. not using the g1. i am using custom hardware Nov 12 06:38:29 Fnord^: is that what you were asking? Nov 12 06:38:44 KNY: 120 something mb Nov 12 06:38:49 Zigner, is what? Nov 12 06:39:03 g1er, thanks. I'll go turn in my geek card now. Nov 12 06:39:29 Fnord:" you know whats been dont to your phone " --> I hope nothing, they will be new from tmobile. Nov 12 06:39:39 mmm http://www.htc.com/www/product/g1/specification.html 256 via that sheet Nov 12 06:39:41 trav530, mini rc30 uses bin patching with sha1 checksumming. if anything is even slightly off there will be an error. if there's an error midway through update, it tends to kill stuf Nov 12 06:39:51 np Nov 12 06:40:10 ah, that's sort of what i thought. so, in theory it's possible, but just dangerous..? Nov 12 06:40:35 so folks, for a new G1 owner, what are we looking at in terms of potential for this phone in the upcoming months Nov 12 06:40:40 better to use the full update i think, but in theory possible Nov 12 06:40:49 btw Nov 12 06:40:50 trav530: not realistic to make checksum the same after modding binary. Nov 12 06:41:03 fnord: makes sense. the main reason i was looking into it is because it's the mini-update that my phone keeps wanting to install Nov 12 06:41:05 has anyone heard of RC30 being seen on store phones yet? Nov 12 06:41:36 Fnord, i just received my G1 last thurs and I am on RC19 Nov 12 06:41:36 zigner: right, i wouldn't need to mod any bins, just add one at the end Nov 12 06:42:11 Yeah make sure your otacerts.zip isn't renamed. that did cause someone problems Nov 12 06:42:13 KNY: I take that back :/ http://www.handcellphone.com/mobile/google-g1-ringtone-accessories-software-review-specifications-and-buy Nov 12 06:42:15 mine were shipped monday from dallas tmobile warehouse.. crossing fingers that the production pipeline is long and no updating is happening at the last second. Nov 12 06:42:40 256MB, not bad Nov 12 06:42:46 still wish you could install to SD Nov 12 06:42:53 fnord: yup, i've heard. thx. Nov 12 06:43:31 has anybody ever seen a data sheet for the MSM7201A? Nov 12 06:43:32 kny with tweaks you can Nov 12 06:43:35 and i don't mean a 2-pager Nov 12 06:43:38 g1er, that page says the camera has zoom even though it doesn't Nov 12 06:43:40 spikebike, oh? Nov 12 06:43:43 more like : /dev/block/mtdblock3 67.5M 64.3M 3.2M 95% /system Nov 12 06:43:43 /dev/block/mtdblock5 74.8M 65.6M 9.2M 88% /data Nov 12 06:43:43 /dev/block/mtdblock4 67.5M 1.3M 66.2M 2% /cache Nov 12 06:43:48 mib_my9efi, there's crop :) Nov 12 06:44:04 spikebike: i've heard that even those who have tweaked it have ended up with nasty probs Nov 12 06:44:11 that page is way off r1er Nov 12 06:44:13 in theory, one could eventually compile android from scratch and flash a G1, right? Nov 12 06:44:18 it also says the phone has a video recorder Nov 12 06:45:07 oyeoj not everything is opensourced Nov 12 06:45:44 youtube, IM, ota updates, and related aren't I believe Nov 12 06:45:55 radio glue? Nov 12 06:46:05 Market Nov 12 06:46:07 Don't forget 'myfavs' Nov 12 06:46:09 and Amazon MP3 Nov 12 06:46:14 gmail? Nov 12 06:46:14 yeah, and those Nov 12 06:46:16 This whole idea of all your data on the G1 saving to the google cloud, is currently failing. Nov 12 06:46:16 calendar? Nov 12 06:46:18 which breaks everything if you try to remove =[ Nov 12 06:46:20 oyeoj, that too Nov 12 06:46:23 actually, i'm not totally convinced that it doesn't have 256MB. the partitions *start* at 0x024c0000, rather than 0x0 Nov 12 06:46:24 it's great with the calendar and gmail Nov 12 06:46:28 and contacts Nov 12 06:46:33 (though issues there too) Nov 12 06:46:44 but.. the individual apps, and messages in the messaging app... Nov 12 06:46:53 all that data is lost with a reset Nov 12 06:46:55 :/ sry...Please let us know if the information above is wrong. We're humans too, sometimes we make mistakes...lol Nov 12 06:46:58 ok but those are all individual binaries? or are they known to rely on kernel magic? Nov 12 06:47:04 languish, maybe it's me, but I'm glad that's not saved "in the cloud" Nov 12 06:47:16 tar is your friend Nov 12 06:47:22 KNY, I am too, but we also don't have any method to back up said data. Nov 12 06:47:28 ie could one copy them to a fresh compiled android Nov 12 06:47:38 languish, if you had root you could, I guess :-/ Nov 12 06:47:48 KNY, I do, but my wife's G1 doesn't. Nov 12 06:48:03 and extracting it from her db is a pain in the ass Nov 12 06:48:14 it's like working with windows Nov 12 06:48:17 haha Nov 12 06:49:01 alright folks, it's about 2 hours past when I should have slept, so I'm leaving Nov 12 06:49:11 there's no good ncurses sqlite viewer Nov 12 06:49:13 jbq, is there a way to save the messages in the messaging app? Nov 12 06:49:36 (or anyone else who man know) Nov 12 06:49:44 languish, tar Nov 12 06:49:46 :P Nov 12 06:49:56 On a non modded RC30 Nov 12 06:49:58 :| Nov 12 06:50:02 :( Nov 12 06:50:08 languish: I have no idea, but I'd assume that it's not actually possible by default :( Nov 12 06:50:16 i'm guessing they're stuffed in a DB somewhere Nov 12 06:50:17 Nope don't think....wait Nov 12 06:50:25 jbq, right, so all that data is going to be lost... Nov 12 06:50:38 like tears in rain Nov 12 06:50:43 there's permissions for apps, yeah? I've seen 'access chats' or such Nov 12 06:50:59 so in theory someone could write a backup app...right? Nov 12 06:51:06 one would hope Nov 12 06:51:12 it's beyond me Nov 12 06:51:49 I already have a project I'm cutting my teeth on Nov 12 06:52:09 but I'm concerned the next android update will break it Nov 12 06:52:12 *sigh* Nov 12 06:52:20 what sortof project? Nov 12 06:52:28 "failed on '/system/etc/security/otacerts.zip' - Read-only file system" Nov 12 06:52:31 what's up with that? Nov 12 06:52:34 mmm.. not ready to discuss it yet Nov 12 06:52:51 mount -oremount,rw /dev/block/mtdblock3 /system Nov 12 06:52:59 duh Nov 12 06:53:03 nevermind Nov 12 06:53:21 <`Gumby> hi all. is there a good msn client for android. I attempted to try IM+ free trial but it says the trial has expired before I even created an account Nov 12 06:53:37 meebo? Nov 12 06:54:12 well. I think my wife's going to return her G1, and switch to a touch pro. She's too frustrated with losing her data for the 3rd time Nov 12 06:54:20 *sigh* Nov 12 06:54:26 o.o Nov 12 06:54:30 how'd that happen? Nov 12 06:55:23 Well, her first master reset was to fix an issue with the radio. So she lost her txts in the messaging app then, and some data in a notepad style app Nov 12 06:55:36 now she knows to c/p the notepad info to email Nov 12 06:55:52 but she's been using a calorie counter Nov 12 06:56:03 and it doesn't have a way to export the data Nov 12 06:56:19 so she's going to lose that info Nov 12 06:56:22 it can't be c/p Nov 12 06:56:25 languish: sounds like an app idea :D Nov 12 06:56:45 yeah, I'm sure the app devs will get around to it Nov 12 06:56:54 but it doesn't help her now Nov 12 06:57:21 the second master reset was due to battery issues or something Nov 12 06:57:32 and the t-mobile app is the 3rd reason Nov 12 06:57:54 it screwed something up, and tmo is telling her the only way to fix it is to master reset, as a known issue Nov 12 06:58:08 can arbitrary apps get to the DB for other apps? Nov 12 06:58:12 and from adb, I believe it Nov 12 06:58:12 Gumby`: the built-in iM client does windows live, is that the same thing? Nov 12 06:58:13 Bloody hell Nov 12 06:58:24 could one, for example, do a generic DB reader? Nov 12 06:58:33 Leeds: nope, apps can't touch one another's data. Nov 12 06:58:37 the apps uninstalled and still getting com.tmobile.wifi/.client.WifiBroadcastReceiver errors Nov 12 06:58:58 <`Gumby> oyeoj: I am not sure i have that. I am using android in an emulator on windows mobile on my htc touch currently Nov 12 06:59:05 jbq: unless, say, something is running as root? ;-) Nov 12 06:59:24 Gumby`: oh. wow. Nov 12 06:59:27 So, for my wife, android is a fail Nov 12 06:59:45 `Gumby: seriously?! Nov 12 06:59:47 personally, I didn't put any info on that I would worry about losing Nov 12 07:00:03 Leeds: saving the files won't necessarily help if you don't know what the files really contain. Nov 12 07:00:10 `Gumby: is that really possible? seems wild Nov 12 07:00:23 languish, yeah that's why root is a bit of a requirement for me heh Nov 12 07:00:30 <`Gumby> stanter: yes seriously. I assume its running emulated..... it starts from an exe and the phone doesnt appear to reboot Nov 12 07:00:32 jbq: I wasn't talking about saving - just a 'hacking' tool Nov 12 07:00:36 cron is nice Nov 12 07:00:37 <`Gumby> runs off the sd card Nov 12 07:00:57 holy cow Nov 12 07:01:28 Leeds: if you know exactly how the app in question works, yeah, it can be done. Nov 12 07:01:43 <`Gumby> some things dont work, like the camera and I dont think the gps works either (but I have to read more) Nov 12 07:01:59 jbq: I'm talking about introspecting a sqlite db file - don't need to know anything about the contents to do that Nov 12 07:02:08 <`Gumby> however everything seems quick and snappy. funnily enough, moreso than wm6 Nov 12 07:02:35 Well, except that some fields might be indirect references to outside data. Nov 12 07:02:45 insane.. it seems faster than wm6..wow Nov 12 07:02:58 sure, but still Nov 12 07:03:03 how do i get my g1's ip? Nov 12 07:03:12 because there isn't a reboot does not mean the OS hasn't been replaced Nov 12 07:03:13 Faster than WM6 and written in Java, imagine that Nov 12 07:03:16 sal323: netstat Nov 12 07:03:24 yeah, there's a winmo android .cab Nov 12 07:03:35 wow Nov 12 07:03:37 nice Nov 12 07:03:44 I'll admit that for simple apps there's a good chance that saving the entire database might indeed work. Nov 12 07:04:07 @cbeust: its crazier than that... its also emulated Nov 12 07:04:12 i think my head just broke Nov 12 07:04:13 I just have that hasty habit as a framework engineer of seeing the edge cases that don't work much more than the general case that does work. Nov 12 07:04:52 i once emulated a gameboy in an emulated macintosh in an emulated amiga Nov 12 07:04:58 :P Nov 12 07:05:01 <`Gumby> lol Nov 12 07:05:14 hrm Nov 12 07:05:20 funny Nov 12 07:05:55 this guy'll give me $700 for my wife's G1. That'll mean profit after paying off the t-mobile rape tax Nov 12 07:05:58 <`Gumby> running android on my touch does make me want to buy a G1 though Nov 12 07:06:13 languish nice Nov 12 07:06:15 and pay for her touch pro Nov 12 07:06:18 anyone use cron on g1? Nov 12 07:06:22 Daaaamn Nov 12 07:06:31 save for a touch HD Nov 12 07:06:50 sal323, planning to. i think it requires init.rc alteration...the watchdog is mean Nov 12 07:07:02 almost tempted to sell mine too. but I'm sort of entrenched Nov 12 07:07:06 I want to see where android goes Nov 12 07:07:14 even if I don't use it as my main phone Nov 12 07:07:59 Fnord^: cool. looking forward to it Nov 12 07:08:06 <`Gumby> are there both gsm and cdma versions of the G1? Nov 12 07:08:07 hmm... I seem to have been pushed an update Nov 12 07:08:13 `Gumby: no, gsm only Nov 12 07:08:17 <`Gumby> damn Nov 12 07:08:37 <`Gumby> well that screws me over pretty well then. Nov 12 07:08:39 there'll be cdma android devices soon enough Nov 12 07:08:41 if not g1's Nov 12 07:08:49 any success in drawing to the framebuffer? Nov 12 07:08:57 leeds just say later Nov 12 07:09:18 and if you don't want the update, delete it from /cache Nov 12 07:09:21 spikebike: sure, already did... but I guess I need to get moving on protecting my root access :-) Nov 12 07:09:25 then change your otakeys filename Nov 12 07:09:31 heh Nov 12 07:09:34 ya Nov 12 07:09:38 or upgrade to a modded rc30 Nov 12 07:09:44 yeah, that's the plan Nov 12 07:09:49 having some issues with the modded rc30 Nov 12 07:09:52 Hi guys, Im trying to run the activitycreator, and I get the following error :ERROR: Package name must be composed of at least two Java identifiers." Nov 12 07:10:08 what issues? Nov 12 07:10:11 for the record, if anyone is interested, it appears to have been pushed OTA over EDGE to my phone sitting in Hong Kong, a long way from t-mobile Nov 12 07:10:24 b0nn: com.example.foo? Nov 12 07:10:32 yeah, leeds it should work over wifi, edge, or 3g Nov 12 07:10:34 spikebike, with the modded rc30, su, then go to /sys then vi, and try to writeout a file, or copy a file to that location Nov 12 07:10:47 oh Nov 12 07:11:00 I think I need to put a package name into the .java file? Nov 12 07:11:08 I had omitted that Nov 12 07:11:16 what about gcc on android? Nov 12 07:11:18 er /sys? Nov 12 07:11:20 spikebike: so it's polling then... pull, not push Nov 12 07:11:29 that's normally not writeable Nov 12 07:11:38 Leeds: ya Nov 12 07:11:49 i forgot, mount the fs as rw Nov 12 07:11:51 :) Nov 12 07:11:57 ah, that would do it Nov 12 07:12:07 mount -o remount,rw -t yaffs2 /dev/block/mtdblock3 /system Nov 12 07:12:38 appearently the su isn't all powerful Nov 12 07:12:58 and not everything you set in motion with it runs as root Nov 12 07:13:03 on a regular Linux system you can do "mount -o remount,rw /system" Nov 12 07:13:10 mount -o remount rw /system Nov 12 07:13:14 works for me on the g1 Nov 12 07:13:18 try it Nov 12 07:13:19 a little less typing than languish Nov 12 07:13:20 and not even root can write to a read-only fs Nov 12 07:13:25 ya Nov 12 07:13:44 unless you mount it as rw :) Nov 12 07:13:59 which doesn't seem to work in this case with /sys on the hacked RC30 for some people Nov 12 07:14:12 er do you mean /sys? Nov 12 07:14:15 or /system Nov 12 07:14:39 I mean /sys Nov 12 07:14:54 errr Nov 12 07:15:00 someone was trying to cp /sdcard/symlinks/timeout /sys/timeout Nov 12 07:15:08 er Nov 12 07:15:09 for whatever reason Nov 12 07:15:44 /sys is like /proc, it's a virtual filesystem Nov 12 07:15:51 so I mounted the fs as rw, and tried to cp a txt file to /sys, or to writeout a vi txt file to it Nov 12 07:15:52 you dont' copy to it Nov 12 07:15:54 that's not normally there Nov 12 07:16:03 /sys/timeout Nov 12 07:16:08 right Nov 12 07:16:10 you don't copy to it Nov 12 07:16:16 if any echo Nov 12 07:16:45 if anything echo Nov 12 07:16:58 still, it should work, even if it's a bad idea Nov 12 07:17:05 no, it shouldn't work Nov 12 07:17:08 no, it shouldn't Nov 12 07:17:11 it's an API to the kernel Nov 12 07:17:11 oh? Nov 12 07:17:19 only allowed defined behaviors work Nov 12 07:17:27 the filesystem simply doesn't implement the functionality of "create a new file from userspace" Nov 12 07:17:33 so if there was a sys/timeout, can you cat it and see 30 Nov 12 07:17:41 so hows does one use adbd on the G1? or another device running android? Nov 12 07:17:43 you might be able to say echo 60 > /sys/timeout Nov 12 07:18:20 but it's not a filesystem for storage, it doesn't persist across boots, and it doesn't support traditional I/O Nov 12 07:18:46 hrm Nov 12 07:18:51 well that would explain it :) Nov 12 07:19:04 I really should bone up on my *nix Nov 12 07:19:11 9evidently) Nov 12 07:19:16 do a ls -R /sys to get a feel Nov 12 07:19:29 stanter: It's in the development settings to enable adbd Nov 12 07:19:29 but I wouldn't suggest tweaking anything underthere randomly Nov 12 07:19:34 /sys is Linux, not *nix Nov 12 07:19:35 nod Nov 12 07:19:45 leeds I don't believe so Nov 12 07:19:53 spikebike: I know so Nov 12 07:20:04 leeds I've seen it on other unix's Nov 12 07:20:06 just like /proc Nov 12 07:20:25 show me? Nov 12 07:20:29 ok my phone now runs unix version 5 Nov 12 07:21:12 ummm Nov 12 07:21:26 hrm, not sure I recall which, my first guess would be solaris 10 Nov 12 07:21:54 # cd sys -> /sys: does not exist Nov 12 07:22:12 in general kernel interfaces via filesystem, pam, and related aren't linux specific Nov 12 07:22:22 Solaris has /system, but it's like /boot on Linux Nov 12 07:22:41 spikebike: I'm reasonably sure it wasn't there in Solaris 9, back when I had a @sun.com email address and was working on the kernel :-P Nov 12 07:22:49 I thought the super ridiculous device names pointed into /sys Nov 12 07:22:54 yeah not in sol 9 Nov 12 07:23:03 no, I think they point to /devices Nov 12 07:23:41 we may have implemented a bit of /sys as part of project Janus - I honestly can't remember now Nov 12 07:24:39 if not I suspect similar functionality is under /proc Nov 12 07:24:48 I'm guessing it was on of the bsds then Nov 12 07:24:49 anyway, the Linux /sys may be conceptually based on something similar elsewhere, but it is very Linux-specific Nov 12 07:25:17 and I'm reasonably sure there was no /sys in Unixware, back when I was working on that :-) Nov 12 07:26:21 yeah it's newish Nov 12 07:26:28 linux had a lead in /proc, then several adopted it Nov 12 07:26:35 then linux forked /proc and /sys Nov 12 07:26:46 I've not seen anyone do it as well, but it seems like it's being done Nov 12 07:27:05 personally I feel stupid and blind without linux /proc around Nov 12 07:27:29 yeah, it's weird how you get used to that sort of thing Nov 12 07:27:35 uh, /proc is from Plan 9 Nov 12 07:27:48 ya ya Nov 12 07:27:51 heh Nov 12 07:27:58 first popular os Nov 12 07:28:03 and first open sourc Nov 12 07:28:04 e Nov 12 07:28:11 kRutOn: i thought that Nov 12 07:28:17 I read and loved the plan-9 papers Nov 12 07:28:19 about the only thing I've done shell-wise on my G1 (in the 26 hours or so I've had it) is poke around in /proc Nov 12 07:28:22 why didn't it become as popular? Nov 12 07:28:30 it had a nazi license Nov 12 07:28:34 up till recently Nov 12 07:28:46 always wondered what happened to plan9 ... especially after it became open source Nov 12 07:28:48 first open source? Nov 12 07:28:55 that and it was pure but not particularly practical Nov 12 07:29:07 nazi license.. do elaborate Nov 12 07:29:10 please Nov 12 07:29:25 in fact from what I can tell 99% of plan9 in the last decade actually ran under linux Nov 12 07:29:48 oh the no commercial use, sign a contract, kiss our ass, pay us money, and we might let you see the source, but you can't distriubte. Nov 12 07:30:10 very recently I think it went mostly opensource, but still might be for non-commercial use Nov 12 07:30:11 oh got it.. so not "really open"source Nov 12 07:30:26 "I started keeping a list of these annoyances but it got too long and depressing so I just learned to live with them again. We really are using a 1970s era operating system well past its sell-by date. We get a lot done, and we have fun, but let's face it, the fundamental design of Unix is older than many of the readers of Slashdot, while lots of different, great ideas about computing and networks have been developed in the last 30 year Nov 12 07:30:36 so basically when it could have had adoption it wasn't open source Nov 12 07:30:55 makes sense Nov 12 07:31:02 i remember my OS professor raving about it Nov 12 07:31:10 --Rob Pike is a Principal Engineer at Google, Inc Nov 12 07:31:13 and now that's it's at least pseudo opensource it's mostly irrelevant Nov 12 07:31:31 spikebike: you are aware of the theory that BSD would have taken off and Linux would have gone nowhere if it wasn't for the AT&T BSD legal problems in the early 90s? Nov 12 07:31:43 I think plan9fs was added to linxu recently Nov 12 07:32:00 (oh man, what have I started) Nov 12 07:32:04 leeds seems wildly optimisitc to me Nov 12 07:32:12 bsd license encourages forking Nov 12 07:32:18 * languish blames spikebike and slips out the side door. Nov 12 07:32:19 and it forked into 100 versions Nov 12 07:32:25 spikebike: yeah, it is NOW Nov 12 07:32:44 wow, this channel has turned into an OS fanboi battlefield Nov 12 07:32:48 even without the lawsuite I think the same thing would happen Nov 12 07:32:49 spikebike: Alan Cox has said that's why he moved to Linux Nov 12 07:32:57 DarkriftX: heh, well if there's nothing else more interesting being discussed Nov 12 07:33:02 i hear you spikebike Nov 12 07:33:15 linus managed to heard cats Nov 12 07:33:17 the conversation is very interesting Nov 12 07:33:21 the linux kernel still hasn't forked Nov 12 07:33:22 ok geniuses, figure out how to get my wife's data out of the messaging app Nov 12 07:33:30 and if anything is becoming closer to mainline Nov 12 07:33:39 * DarkriftX drifts off to bed Nov 12 07:33:43 languish switch her to gtalk ;-) Nov 12 07:33:59 spikebike, can't help the externak idiots that don't use gtalk Nov 12 07:34:01 she does Nov 12 07:34:02 I think you mean herd :-) Nov 12 07:34:10 ah, yea Nov 12 07:34:13 h Nov 12 07:34:16 messaging=SMS? Nov 12 07:34:25 I assume Nov 12 07:34:31 txt'ing Nov 12 07:34:33 whatever happened to the gnu hurd anyway? Nov 12 07:34:43 sal heh, that's a very amusing stories Nov 12 07:35:01 i'm sure it's still trucking.... maybe it can boot now? Nov 12 07:35:02 it's still limping along Nov 12 07:35:03 it was going to rule because of all of these advantages. Microkernels, easier development, pluggable pieces, message passing, etc. Nov 12 07:35:03 heh Nov 12 07:35:13 stallman scared people off with his singing Nov 12 07:35:15 radically faster development, the wave of the future...etc. Nov 12 07:35:22 teh futar! Nov 12 07:35:28 turns out all those advantages are actually disadvantages. Nov 12 07:35:28 clearly we are not ready for the future Nov 12 07:35:55 performance, stability, and development speed are way slower than the traditional Nov 12 07:36:06 first time i went to the hurd website, i thought a brand new revolutionary OS had slipped under my nose Nov 12 07:36:19 sounded like it was changing the world Nov 12 07:36:23 MACH was supposedly going to unify all unix against windows NT (which was the thread of the time) Nov 12 07:36:24 as much as i love to hate on rms, i'm always at a loss when i have to use the bsd versions of eg 'ps' Nov 12 07:36:31 spikebike: lol so what the heck happen? these are suppose to be smart ppl! (mit material) Nov 12 07:36:31 and none of the command line opts i am used to work Nov 12 07:36:32 everyone signed on (Dec, HP, sun, etc.) Nov 12 07:36:45 then everyone figured out it was a steaming pile of shit Nov 12 07:36:53 lol Nov 12 07:36:56 lol Nov 12 07:36:58 oyeoj: that's nothing to do with RMS at all Nov 12 07:37:00 and went back to their propietary unix, except for dec which stuck it out with OSF Nov 12 07:37:16 Leeds: the linux versions of those are gnu, yes? Nov 12 07:37:25 I don't think he coded procps Nov 12 07:37:43 Next was MACH based, and so is the current OSX, but it's been getting more macrokernel like by the day Nov 12 07:37:51 oyeoj: they support both the BSD and SysV command-line options... which one you personally use is purely historical Nov 12 07:38:13 spikebike: and now Solaris is really the only old UNIX which matters, and it's fading fast Nov 12 07:38:32 solaris is small, but holding stready from what I can see Nov 12 07:38:49 the sparcs are dying quick, cept for the t1000 t2000 which are growing jsut enough to offset Nov 12 07:38:57 Leeds: orly? i figured all the differences were added poast-linux Nov 12 07:39:03 Leeds: thx for teh correction Nov 12 07:39:04 is it wrong to say opensolaris is slowly growing? Nov 12 07:39:21 seems pretty steady to me Nov 12 07:39:26 sal323: it may be that opensolaris is slowly growing - but solaris is quickly shrinking Nov 12 07:39:38 what's kinda interesting is linux is shrinking Nov 12 07:39:39 Leeds: and in any event, the bsd versions dont do both ;-) Nov 12 07:39:43 cept for ubuntu Nov 12 07:39:57 to the degree that either ubuntu is going to stop growing Nov 12 07:40:04 spikebike: figures? Nov 12 07:40:07 or linux is going to start growing Nov 12 07:40:22 (desktop/server) it's wildy popular in many embedded spaces Nov 12 07:40:37 download stats, google trends, etc. Nov 12 07:40:47 suse, fedora, gentoo, slackware, etc... are all shrinking Nov 12 07:41:01 ubuntu has been growing Nov 12 07:41:04 gentoo is somewhat moribund... Nov 12 07:41:07 ya Nov 12 07:41:19 slackware is just where it was when I started with it in 1995, and reasonably happy there :-) Nov 12 07:41:21 as t->+Inf debian pwns all Nov 12 07:41:29 so are all linux users migrating to ubuntu? Nov 12 07:41:37 seems that way Nov 12 07:41:39 I would say that fedora is growing, suse is probably about stable Nov 12 07:41:46 centos is doing well afaik Nov 12 07:42:04 * Leeds points to netbooks Nov 12 07:42:07 dunno that fedora has been growing Nov 12 07:42:22 anyone ever use xenix? Nov 12 07:43:00 sal323: you mean the formerly-Microsoft Unix? no, before my time Nov 12 07:43:10 http://www.madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=7951 Nov 12 07:43:18 not the best url, but the first hit on google Nov 12 07:43:46 Leeds: perhaps it was better than dos Nov 12 07:44:08 ah-ha, an opinion piece... point proven Nov 12 07:44:24 sal323: Gumby emulated it on windows mobile once Nov 12 07:44:24 the numbers seem to back it up Nov 12 07:44:39 where are the numbers? Nov 12 07:45:15 (reading back, it's possible you misunderstood my 'figures?' as meaning 'that figures?' rather than 'where are the numbers?') Nov 12 07:45:54 oyeoj: i'd have to see that Nov 12 07:47:27 http://popcon.debian.org/stat/submission.png Nov 12 07:47:45 not the same thing, but these are the arches that are popular in debian Nov 12 07:48:07 like the email app when you first open i5 Nov 12 07:48:33 err Nov 12 07:48:33 [Boops Nov 12 07:48:46 jasta: yes, just like that Nov 12 07:50:51 what's a good argument for keep telnet instead of replacing it with ssh? Nov 12 07:50:57 err keeping Nov 12 07:51:36 how is the g1 selling against others right now Nov 12 07:52:08 app idea: file encryption, message encryption, data safe Nov 12 07:52:14 leeds figured I've seen from how busy the mirrors are, calculated downloads, distrowatch, netcraft, and google trends Nov 12 07:52:15 A+++ Idea Nov 12 07:52:32 spikebike: netcraft confirms: BSD is dying? Nov 12 07:52:50 leeds heh, seems reasonably stable as well, not that I've been paying close attention Nov 12 07:53:22 although they seem to be moving more towards embedded (obsd in firewalls), NAS, applicances, etc. Nov 12 07:53:23 Did any of you guys release the Term app to market? Nov 12 07:53:42 ionstorm I'm thinking of making an app that's basically a hardware token Nov 12 07:54:00 ionstorm, hmm good idea, i'll apt-get install bcrypt :P Nov 12 07:54:17 ha wrd, ya i may install debian on this Nov 12 07:54:55 gpg messaging would b nice tho Nov 12 07:55:14 I'd like to merge /data and /cache...not sure if that's possible Nov 12 07:55:33 unionfs ? Nov 12 07:56:43 hmm Nov 12 07:56:54 this android simulator seems unresponsive Nov 12 07:56:56 nah make `em one partition. assuming they're partitions. i should look up mtd and find out what it is exactly Nov 12 07:57:06 I feel like Im doing it wrong Nov 12 07:57:18 b0nn, it's slow Nov 12 07:57:45 http://www.starryhope.com/tech/2007/ubuntu-just-how-popular-is-it/ Nov 12 07:57:59 is a good summary of a bunch of ways to measure popularity Nov 12 07:58:00 my gf runs ubuntu Nov 12 07:58:20 kinda tricky to measure when something is free not only in cost, but to redistribute Nov 12 07:58:21 my last 2 gf's ran it Nov 12 07:58:22 lol Nov 12 07:58:33 hell I personally run a open mirror and don't track downloads Nov 12 07:59:13 fnord I suspect /cache will go away as people abandon ota Nov 12 08:00:28 spikebike: what? Nov 12 08:00:37 er wht? Nov 12 08:00:45 abandon ota? Nov 12 08:00:48 Most won't abandon ota. most don't know or care that their phones run linux Nov 12 08:00:54 ok Nov 12 08:01:03 for folks that keep root and can control their parititons Nov 12 08:01:10 I suspect /cache will go away Nov 12 08:01:21 better? Nov 12 08:01:24 :P Nov 12 08:01:33 hrm Error Type 1: Could not access the Package Manager! Nov 12 08:01:49 8 megs free in data, 67 in cache... Nov 12 08:01:51 for people who don't keep root, they will consume whatever is spoon fed to them by tmo Nov 12 08:02:00 i could go symlink-crazy i suppose Nov 12 08:02:24 fnord either that or don't download 8 tip calculators ;-) Nov 12 08:02:29 hah Nov 12 08:02:30 yeah Nov 12 08:02:50 but 6 of them could get the tip wrong! Nov 12 08:03:05 where are the java app binaries kept on android? Nov 12 08:03:11 not in /sbin i presume Nov 12 08:03:17 /data Nov 12 08:03:31 and /system/app for default stuff Nov 12 08:03:36 hmm Nov 12 08:04:03 i wonder if zygote/servicemanager etc would run nicely under glibc instead of bionic Nov 12 08:04:09 would you recommend any voice recorders? the ones I found records for only short periods Nov 12 08:04:38 does anyone know if eg Gmail.apk will run on a from-source compiled android Nov 12 08:04:39 ? Nov 12 08:04:52 If anyone's up for it. A short "I have root on android, what now?" article/blog post or even wiki entry on DarkriftX's site, would be cool. Nov 12 08:04:53 dunno Nov 12 08:05:20 er Nov 12 08:05:32 oh your asking someone else to write it Nov 12 08:05:39 you're Nov 12 08:05:43 yes. someone with more clue than myself Nov 12 08:05:44 install php/apache and http://www.sqlitemanager.org/ ? Nov 12 08:05:51 languish: there's a bit of a catch22 there Nov 12 08:05:58 hmm, does anyone have apache running? :-) Nov 12 08:06:04 one sec Nov 12 08:06:10 heh, well with debian running it's a single command away Nov 12 08:06:16 there was an android httpd, dunno what happened to it Nov 12 08:06:25 i remember reading about it Nov 12 08:06:34 my unmetered EDGE account gives me a routable, unfiltered IP address... Nov 12 08:06:34 * Fnord^ runs apt-get ....debian makes it too easy Nov 12 08:06:41 I'm sure there's a java http that is relatively light weight Nov 12 08:06:48 unfiltered? Nov 12 08:06:55 no filtered ports Nov 12 08:06:56 all ports open? Nov 12 08:07:01 as far as I can tell, yes Nov 12 08:07:05 i don't think udp traffic works? Nov 12 08:07:09 wow, strange, dynamic or static ip? Nov 12 08:07:17 upgrade later, dammit! Nov 12 08:07:20 dynamic Nov 12 08:07:35 upgrade now, it should only take 10 or so Nov 12 08:07:46 not until I've protected my root access Nov 12 08:07:52 no need if you upgrade Nov 12 08:07:58 upgrade comes with root Nov 12 08:08:02 huh? Nov 12 08:08:04 o.o Nov 12 08:08:07 heh Nov 12 08:08:13 http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keeping_Root Nov 12 08:08:15 just do that Nov 12 08:08:24 with any phone with RC19 to RC29 Nov 12 08:08:43 "update later" meaning "no, I do not want to install the OTA update right now" as a response to the pop-up Nov 12 08:08:46 then tmo won't bother you with an "update" that steals root Nov 12 08:08:58 correct, update later.. then race to the above URL Nov 12 08:09:00 until rc31 Nov 12 08:09:03 otherwise a single wrong click Nov 12 08:09:09 * Fnord^ needs to finish self-protecting recovery mod Nov 12 08:09:17 well if you follow the above you won't get pestered with rc31 either Nov 12 08:09:30 * Fnord^ doesn't know c that well, and can't test changes in emulator =[ Nov 12 08:09:32 “We tried really hard to secure Android. This is definitely a big bug,” he said. “The reason why we consider it a large security issue is because root access on the device breaks our application sandbox.” Nov 12 08:09:36 :( Nov 12 08:09:46 yup Nov 12 08:10:01 well the problem is IMO security should protect my device from others... not me Nov 12 08:10:06 people do need to stop using setuid shells named su tho Nov 12 08:10:10 that's insecure Nov 12 08:10:16 I'm all for security, encryption, and DRM... as long as I have the keys Nov 12 08:10:26 srsly Nov 12 08:10:37 it's mine dammit Nov 12 08:10:49 so you don't ship a way to do backups... find let me do them Nov 12 08:10:53 ideally a good custom update has su check a sqlite database, and includes a simple passwd changer gui app Nov 12 08:11:00 you don't allow VPN... fine let me do them Nov 12 08:11:20 you don't let me lie about my agent string so websites can censor me... fine let me fix it Nov 12 08:11:44 you don't let me use external storage to help fit my needs.... fine let me fix it Nov 12 08:12:30 :P Nov 12 08:13:37 hmm Nov 12 08:13:57 how does Exec.createSubprocess work? just normally like system()? Nov 12 08:14:06 ie can it run a shell script Nov 12 08:14:24 hmm, in the last 15 minutes, all my emulator has done has displayed ANDROID and a litle alien Nov 12 08:14:32 surely its not that slow? Nov 12 08:14:38 b0nn, it's not normally -that- slow Nov 12 08:14:55 am I supposed to switch it on? Nov 12 08:16:45 erm Nov 12 08:16:49 its hogging 80+% of my CPU and 20% (ish) of my RAM Nov 12 08:16:59 don't think so. not if it has the logo on it's screen Nov 12 08:17:08 I suspect shenanigans Nov 12 08:17:18 ? Nov 12 08:17:23 Fnord^: you might look at term source, but it should if there is an interp for that script (#!/bin/bash) for instance, else bash -c script or similar Nov 12 08:18:48 $ emulator -version Nov 12 08:18:48 Android emulator version 1.6 (build_id 110632-110632) Nov 12 08:19:31 tmzt, makes sense yeah Nov 12 08:19:47 b0nn, kill it, start with a clean datadir? Nov 12 08:20:06 clean datadir? Nov 12 08:23:26 yeah Nov 12 08:23:56 you need to start it with a -datadir option or similar, correct? Nov 12 08:24:20 * Fnord^ fixes terminal app right alt/shift keys to work like connectbot. yay Nov 12 08:24:20 oh Nov 12 08:24:34 Ive just been starting it with "emulator" Nov 12 08:27:08 then it'll use ~/.android/SDK-1.0 as the datadir, I think Nov 12 08:29:52 oy Nov 12 08:30:11 terminal insists on replacing itself Nov 12 08:30:25 and i changed it to com.android.term2 Nov 12 08:34:47 hrm Nov 12 08:40:54 >.< yes, the android build system is quite terrible Nov 12 08:59:55 Anyone succeed in making custom search widgets for desktop? Nov 12 09:05:57 Anyone have a clue of what setLinearText() does Nov 12 09:07:19 nope Nov 12 09:07:50 kRutOn, hmm, got a connectbot suggestion Nov 12 09:08:23 Helper for setFlags(), setting or clearing the LINEAR_TEXT_FLAG bit Nov 12 09:08:58 I feel like I'm getting the runaround :-) Nov 12 09:09:03 :P Nov 12 09:09:09 It says something about no cache.. Nov 12 09:09:35 uhm Nov 12 09:09:40 No clue Nov 12 09:10:04 Just did my first java coding - added connectbot-like right alt/shift behavior to terminal Nov 12 09:10:30 kRutOn http://wiki.droiddocs.net/Reference:Android.graphics.Paint#setLinearText Nov 12 09:14:50 sweet Nov 12 09:14:57 nice fnord Nov 12 09:17:10 languish: Yeah, that doesn't help. Nov 12 09:18:46 Also white on black instead of on blue, and search button does '-' :P Nov 12 09:21:00 hmm, or not, with the search button Nov 12 09:22:07 kRutOn :( syr. I try. Nov 12 09:22:55 so now I go laugh at xkcd Nov 12 09:31:58 whee, apparently linear text flag does nothing Nov 12 09:32:00 1391 if (/*paint.isLinearText() ||*/ Nov 12 09:32:13 woot! I just got android ported to my custom hardware! Nov 12 09:32:19 kernel and all Nov 12 09:32:41 playing with the API demos right now! Nov 12 09:32:50 sorry i had to announce it to the world Nov 12 09:33:08 stanter: Cool, what kind of hardware? Nov 12 09:33:21 pxa-310 synaptics touchscreen Nov 12 09:33:33 it literally just came off the fab Nov 12 09:33:44 cool Nov 12 09:33:56 are you standing next to the fab? Nov 12 09:33:59 heh Nov 12 09:33:59 lol Nov 12 09:34:02 is it warm? ;-) Nov 12 09:34:08 i knew that was coming Nov 12 09:34:25 er so it's a arm and a touch screen... foor? Nov 12 09:34:26 for? Nov 12 09:34:37 but yes it is warm, only because of the screen Nov 12 09:34:48 a client is building a platform for something Nov 12 09:34:56 which is undefined Nov 12 09:35:02 but no cell modem Nov 12 09:35:03 what's the screen resolution Nov 12 09:35:05 nope Nov 12 09:35:17 480x272 Nov 12 09:35:32 battery? Nov 12 09:35:52 or the other orientation/rotation (still have to figure that out) Nov 12 09:36:09 it is battery powered, i gracefully(err) ignored that in the porting Nov 12 09:36:20 my dream was a n800 with a cell modem and more ram Nov 12 09:36:31 just has to be demoable with android Nov 12 09:36:32 the g1 comes close... alas many less pixels Nov 12 09:36:44 anyone in the UK got the OTA update yet? Nov 12 09:37:10 truth be told, lacking any buttons it is a bit unusable and i am killing processes with kill -9 Nov 12 09:37:25 yeah, no keyboard is a major issue so far Nov 12 09:37:38 although the openmoko folks are likely working on that pretty hard Nov 12 09:37:39 andatche: I haven't Nov 12 09:37:46 there isnt even an onscreen one right? Nov 12 09:37:57 nope Nov 12 09:37:59 not yet Nov 12 09:38:00 stanter: Some people have made one, but it's not in the default repository Nov 12 09:38:07 the ota updates are one huge clusterfuck Nov 12 09:38:20 I bought 2 phones, 1 got RC29, then RC30 Nov 12 09:38:30 oh good, so ill have to search for it at some point Nov 12 09:38:36 and even days later the first phone was still on RC19 Nov 12 09:38:44 i left out the networking too, needed to reduce all the noise in the porting Nov 12 09:38:53 spikebike, it came from the shop rc30? Nov 12 09:39:02 nope, both came with rc19 Nov 12 09:39:02 getting a www.google.com page to show up when i open the browser is the next priority Nov 12 09:39:33 oh good Nov 12 09:39:37 is there a website to browse the android market from? Nov 12 09:39:41 (without a g1) Nov 12 09:39:45 no Nov 12 09:39:56 lame Nov 12 09:39:59 yep Nov 12 09:39:59 damn the OpenGL works! i am way too excited Nov 12 09:39:59 how are the apk's retrieved? Nov 12 09:40:03 even a read only/no comments would be nice Nov 12 09:40:15 ionstorm, a google server Nov 12 09:40:30 anyone sniff while running the market app Nov 12 09:40:34 spikebike, agreed. already bugged romain about it Nov 12 09:40:40 im sure their is a list of some sort it grabs Nov 12 09:40:55 there* Nov 12 09:41:00 heh Nov 12 09:41:07 ah, finally a zork interpreter ;-) Nov 12 09:41:15 ;] Nov 12 09:43:20 ah well, that seems to have worked... now have r30(ish), su and busybox Nov 12 09:44:32 stanter careful, it's easy to become unaturally fond of androids Nov 12 09:45:04 back so soon? Nov 12 09:45:05 anyone know where /cache/recovery/command comes from? Nov 12 09:45:07 yup :)_ Nov 12 09:45:11 how was you walk? Nov 12 09:45:12 heh, uh oh Nov 12 09:45:15 s/you/your Nov 12 09:45:18 good Nov 12 09:45:23 any fog yet? Nov 12 09:45:26 saw someone else typing on a similar phone Nov 12 09:45:28 lol, i think im excited from the: it took a lot of work to get this to work and im glad i got this far point of view Nov 12 09:46:02 maybe it was me, spying on you Nov 12 09:46:07 maybe Nov 12 09:46:26 there's an older tmo phone with a slide out keyboard... slapjack or something? Nov 12 09:46:38 sidekick? Nov 12 09:46:41 ah, yeah Nov 12 09:46:43 heh Nov 12 09:47:00 rebuilding the images yourself? Nov 12 09:47:02 "/cache/recovery/command"? anyone? anyone? :) Nov 12 09:47:05 yeah Nov 12 09:47:20 i'm still trying to fully grok the recovery process Nov 12 09:47:39 yeah, that's the reason I just used the moded ones Nov 12 09:47:47 I don't really feel confident doing it myself yet Nov 12 09:48:01 i progress as I understand. almost there. Nov 12 09:51:52 so zygote is the graphical system? Nov 12 09:54:09 /cache/recovery/command is written by OTA to make /sbin/recovery in the recovery partition automatically start installing Nov 12 09:54:12 zygote is sort of like a "process spawner" Nov 12 09:55:23 fnord: Hmmm... i just flashed a custom recovery image and that's the first error i get when i try to enter recovery mode. Nov 12 09:55:35 isn't recovery mode supposed to work even w/out an OTA? Nov 12 09:55:39 I'm using TextView setText to output a string, is there anyway to give a certain color to half the string? I mean at a certain point in the string. Nov 12 09:57:22 trav530, yeah it'll still work Nov 12 09:57:56 afsd3, split it into two strings? Nov 12 09:58:26 okay =) wasn't sure if there was some escape char or something to let you change color of text Nov 12 09:58:34 fnord: okay, so am i supposed to create /cache/recovery/command before booting into recovery mode? Nov 12 10:00:01 not needed Nov 12 10:00:33 oh, so the error is benign? Nov 12 10:02:42 yah Nov 12 10:05:26 heh, okay. then i guess my question instead becomes this: is the recovery image signed in some way? And if so, how? I'm under the impression that the only sort of signing that goes on is .zip/.jar signing (MANIFEST/CERTs/etc.) Nov 12 10:06:54 can't see how the recovery.image could be signed Nov 12 10:07:03 me either Nov 12 10:07:10 but for some reason, i can't get the log to say "using test keys" Nov 12 10:07:22 unless that was some sort of hack that was written by JF Nov 12 10:07:39 Oh, maybe Nov 12 10:07:45 now that i think about it, it might have been, since i'd expect it instead to use a hyphen (i.e., "using test-keys" Nov 12 10:07:48 that sounds familiar Nov 12 10:08:09 post install with modded rc30 it say production keys under device-info Nov 12 10:08:10 i was assuming it was a standard log output... probably not Nov 12 10:08:21 really? Nov 12 10:08:49 i've never heard of "production keys" Nov 12 10:08:56 ya under build description it says kila user 1.0 tc4-rc30 ota-rel-keys, release-keys Nov 12 10:09:07 oh, "ota-rel-keys, release-keys" you mean Nov 12 10:09:14 ya Nov 12 10:09:18 i thought you LITERALLY meant "production-keys:" Nov 12 10:09:38 but still, sorta weird - i was under the impression that his RC30 was signed with test keys Nov 12 10:09:39 well my memory was fuzzy enough just to know it didn't say test-keys Nov 12 10:09:43 heh Nov 12 10:09:46 understood Nov 12 10:09:57 correct it is signed with the test keys Nov 12 10:10:23 are you sure it doesn't say "xda-dev" Nov 12 10:10:23 ? Nov 12 10:10:25 > ro.build.fingerprint=tmobile/kila/dream/trout:1.0/TC4-RC30/116143:user/xda-dev Nov 12 10:10:50 (obviously you are, since you just quoted it) ... duh Nov 12 10:11:13 yeah under device-info I don't see xda-dev mentioned anywhere. Nov 12 10:11:21 hm... *shrug*... okay Nov 12 10:11:39 that's a good suggestion, not sure JF followed the recommendations for doing it yourself Nov 12 10:12:04 no, i'm actually looking at his RC30. Nov 12 10:12:16 i think what's happening is that the fingerprint is in more than one place Nov 12 10:12:25 i think he changed one, but a text string persists from elsewhere Nov 12 10:12:28 i'm guessing, though Nov 12 10:12:34 well it's not under device info -> build description Nov 12 10:12:37 or build id Nov 12 10:12:44 hm, 1 sec Nov 12 10:12:50 or linux kernel version Nov 12 10:13:06 ah. Nov 12 10:13:17 he changed the fingerprint, but not the description. they are similar, but not exactly the same Nov 12 10:13:25 ro.build.description=kila-user 1.0 TC4-RC30 116143 ota-rel-keys,release-keys Nov 12 10:13:25 ro.build.fingerprint=tmobile/kila/dream/trout:1.0/TC4-RC30/116143:user/xda-dev Nov 12 10:13:46 ah, yeah I see that first line, but not the second Nov 12 10:13:57 yeah... Nov 12 10:14:00 best of luck Nov 12 10:14:03 * spikebike sleeps Nov 12 10:14:04 thx, nite! Nov 12 10:15:37 Yes, i've just verified that the "using test keys" string was a JF hack Nov 12 10:16:32 how could you use setText(); to display have the string in a certain color? Nov 12 10:18:56 afsd3: not sure, sorry. there might be a way, but it may have to be set as a property/attribute, rather than some sort of encoding Nov 12 10:19:08 (i've only barely started using the android sdk() Nov 12 10:19:57 hmm Nov 12 10:28:45 is there anyway to center text with Linearlayout? Nov 12 10:29:04 opps yeah with gravity my bad <_< Nov 12 10:29:08 dont know how I missed that Nov 12 10:31:34 how to port android on begale Nov 12 10:31:47 can anybody help me Nov 12 10:56:08 can you center text with LinearLayout? I can't seem to be able to do it ether with adding android:gravity="center" or using setGravity =( Nov 12 11:13:17 BBC are a bit slow: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7722367.stm Nov 12 11:15:16 is this the correct way to use gravity with Textview to center text. android:gravity="center" Nov 12 11:25:55 wow Nov 12 11:26:14 whatever source google used for their maps of brooklyn, I've found a few inacuracies Nov 12 11:26:26 just like my spelling there Nov 12 11:30:52 I dont think google does the maps themselfs I think anther company does it Nov 12 11:31:53 the NOC guys (when they're not going down rows with shopping carts, pulling out the dead computers) are required to map cities by hand Nov 12 11:34:48 afsd3, that's why I said "whatever source" :) Nov 12 11:48:52 interesting, google talk now has voice chat Nov 12 11:49:05 GTalk as the new Skype for phones? ;) Nov 12 11:59:43 Hi #android, I have a surfaceview on which I try to draw a canvas. I'm a total android noob and I don't realize why the draw isn't reflected on screen. The three relevant lines of code here: http://pastebin.com/d6957cd2 the first line which sets the background on the surfaceview works, the other don't. Any advice? Nov 12 12:00:07 * umdk1d3 peeks Nov 12 12:02:32 b0lland: you may need to lockCanvas before drawing? Nov 12 12:02:42 then later unlockAndPost Nov 12 12:03:04 ok thanks! :) Nov 12 12:03:16 thats when using a SurfaceHolder Nov 12 12:03:42 SurfaceHolder.lockCanvas will give you a temporary canvas to work with Nov 12 12:04:18 b0lland: are you trying to do advanced drawing, or just need to do some simple rendering? Nov 12 12:04:46 sometimes it might be easier to just override the onDraw() of a View that you create yourself Nov 12 12:04:51 I'm just playing around, so I'd say simple rendering, but I think I need to read up a little on the surfaceholder then Nov 12 12:05:27 yea i would recommend overriding onDraw() for now Nov 12 12:05:43 SurfaceViews are great for accelerated stuff, but they can be difficult to work with sometimes Nov 12 12:05:50 okay thanks I'll try it :) Nov 12 12:06:45 b0lland: heres a quick example Nov 12 12:06:46 http://code.google.com/p/connectbot/source/browse/trunk/connectbot/src/org/connectbot/TerminalView.java Nov 12 12:07:12 then you can reference your view in xml layouts Nov 12 12:07:43 for example, Nov 12 12:08:13 in that example, we tried using surfaceview to accelerate the custom rendering were doing for the ssh client Nov 12 12:08:15 thanks so much :) I was looking at the lunarlander example but this looks less bloated Nov 12 12:08:26 but ran into issues with drawing not turning out the way we expected Nov 12 12:08:27 oka Nov 12 12:08:57 this is a good place to start, and then look back at the accelerated stuff later Nov 12 12:09:12 i think the issue we ran into is that we couldnt incrementally update the SurfaceView Nov 12 12:09:21 we had to redraw the entire buffer each time we locked it Nov 12 12:10:19 if your lookign to work with accelerated games, then SurfaceView is probably your best bet Nov 12 12:10:49 Anyone know where to get a good screen protector (not a cheap one that is hard to apply) Nov 12 12:10:54 Canvas c = SurfaceView.getHolder().lockCanvas(); ... getHolder().unlockCanvasAndPost(c); Nov 12 12:10:55 ok :) Nov 12 12:11:31 b0lland: btw curious, are you just looking around right now, or looking to draw something specific? Nov 12 12:12:58 umdk1d3, actually I'm just playing around with the android API:s, I have no intention of rendering anything fancy Nov 12 12:13:11 okay cool stuff :) Nov 12 12:13:25 umdk1d3: indeed, like the API:s and documentation so far Nov 12 12:13:53 if your interested, i would really recommend looking into the 9patch stuff Nov 12 12:14:07 its a pretty smart way of handling images and streching them Nov 12 12:15:04 ok, I just briefly went past that in the documentation, I'll look into it if I can figure out something I'd like to stretch ;) Nov 12 12:28:53 digitalspaghetti, where did you get that from? Nov 12 12:29:29 digitalspaghetti, Google guys have always stated that playing audio from a stream is not possible in this SDK release.. Nov 12 12:40:02 tauno: GTalk for Desktop/Web browser Nov 12 12:40:13 but it may eventually make it to the phone, which would be cool Nov 12 12:40:24 we need an open financial intent or content provider Nov 12 12:41:20 digitalspaghetti, ah.. just rumors then:) Nov 12 12:42:09 i've tried it out today, very nice Nov 12 12:42:28 essentially means GTalk is now on a par with the likes of MSN Nov 12 12:44:09 digitalspaghetti, yeah but I think that we won't see voice chat in the Android client any time soon Nov 12 12:50:58 and i never did say I was spreading rumors :p i just said it was interesting ;) Nov 12 12:51:29 umdk1d3, wohoo now it renders :) got stuck for a bit when I didn't realize I needed a second constructor for my custom view that took xml parameters Nov 12 12:59:41 what's the xml version of View.setScrollBarStyle(int style) ? Nov 12 13:01:28 found it Nov 12 13:02:29 http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/R.attr.html#scrollbarStyle Nov 12 13:04:13 Has anyone tried this? http://www.intomobile.com/2008/11/10/force-android-rc-30-update-on-your-t-mobile-g1-and-keep-root-access.html Nov 12 13:06:19 savid: yes Nov 12 13:08:28 Neverender1, experiences? Did it work well? No bricking? Nov 12 13:09:16 worked fine for me Nov 12 13:09:33 Cool. I just got my G1 yesterday. RC28 (phew) Nov 12 13:11:03 is the g1 available in the europe yet? Nov 12 13:11:45 the uk Nov 12 13:15:29 hey what do you guys think of allowing users to store their data on my server Nov 12 13:15:39 and have it linked by their devices unique id Nov 12 13:16:04 for the apps i develop Nov 12 13:16:12 stupid? Nov 12 13:16:22 unless you can guarantee the server will be up for 10 years Nov 12 13:16:54 not to mention privacy Nov 12 13:17:59 ^--- Agreed (not to mention the cost of maintaining the server) Nov 12 13:18:14 a few k of data per person isnt gonna be much Nov 12 13:18:39 depends on the app as well. does it survive the tunnel effect (momentary lapse of connectivity) Nov 12 13:19:25 mmarker, the app wouldnt depend on the data on the server Nov 12 13:19:50 it would be for other sutff, like being able to print reports or charts easily, backing up without having to connect your phone to a computer Nov 12 13:20:24 if it syncs once a week, that should be fine at least for my cases Nov 12 13:21:02 if you ever restore your device to factory defaults, the data is grabbed off the server Nov 12 13:21:32 still bad idea? Nov 12 13:23:51 although i guess its still worthless for if you lose the phone Nov 12 13:24:12 i want somethign thats going to be seemless and not require a password, but that seems unlikely :( Nov 12 13:24:28 i guess i could only enable it for my version of the s Nov 12 13:24:41 so only i can upload and download, that would make me happy Nov 12 13:27:52 but then i think anyone could possibly access the data, since the unique id could be known by any software Nov 12 13:27:53 boo Nov 12 13:28:14 guess im stuck with a normal user/pass approach for access Nov 12 13:28:42 is there seriously no speed dial app yet? Nov 12 13:30:39 * zewm_ is away.. autoaway/10m [lp!on] Nov 12 13:34:34 hmm Nov 12 13:34:46 blau: /me ponders a dht using phones Nov 12 13:35:26 thats kinda sick. I like it. Nov 12 13:44:17 umdk: dht? Nov 12 13:54:05 blau: speed dial - you can add contact onto your desktop, not quite speed dial pretty good Nov 12 13:54:17 *but pretty good Nov 12 14:29:09 Does anyone know how to use the "make your own" feature of AnyCut? Nov 12 14:30:10 coworker went to update his G1, it rebooted and never came back :) Nov 12 14:31:00 michaelnovakjr, so he bricked it? was it a manual update? Nov 12 14:31:10 it was a legit update Nov 12 14:56:03 michaelnovakjr, if he pulls the battery, puts it back on powers it on... does it go to the warning sign? Nov 12 14:56:12 if so, he can just flash the full patch and be done Nov 12 14:56:18 nope, nothing comes up Nov 12 14:56:25 just a black screen Nov 12 14:56:35 Doesn't even get a G1 logo? Nov 12 14:56:41 nope Nov 12 14:57:19 Woah, that's bizarrely messed up, because it means that the bootloader is screwed up, but none of the updates that were sent so far update the bootloader. Nov 12 14:57:38 jbq, exactly Nov 12 14:57:54 not even the hack your RC30's modify your boot loader Nov 12 14:57:57 just the boot image Nov 12 14:58:32 it vibrates when it turns on, you can see the screen is on but it stays black Nov 12 14:59:58 i wonder if he typed something bad before the update :) Nov 12 15:00:25 haha Nov 12 15:00:37 i typed reboot and it rebooted the device Nov 12 15:00:41 but still doesn't work Nov 12 15:00:54 so there's at least an active shell Nov 12 15:02:15 oh, so it went far enough to boot the kernel and a good part of init. Nov 12 15:02:24 (and the update didn't stick) Nov 12 15:03:09 werid Nov 12 15:03:25 The fact that the screen is dark sounds like a hardware problem more than a software problem in this case - though it might be correlated. Nov 12 15:03:34 So if the reboot thing worked, the update must have been pre-RC30, or the RC30 update failed to install boot.img. Nov 12 15:03:50 after updating to rc30, is it possible to download and manually install rc29 to roll back the firmware? Nov 12 15:04:43 No, I don't think you can downgrade (atleast if you are running the real RC30). Nov 12 15:05:07 It's not supposed to be possible. Plus, with the fixes that were made in RC30, that might not be such a good idea. Nov 12 15:05:58 guess ill just have to wait for a different root workaround, tmobile tricked me ;l Nov 12 15:06:44 You can use the time to look for a legitimate use for being root, and for submitting patches to Android so that this use case becomes possible without being root :-) Nov 12 15:07:02 How did you get tricked? Were you trying to avoid RC30 but failed somehow? Nov 12 15:07:44 No, i had updated my phone at work, not reading about the update first. Nov 12 15:08:40 jbq: how do i play with new kernel/modules (ahem, vpn or scheduler) or back up my files without being root? currently the only way to flash the device is by replacing the keys as root.. Nov 12 15:09:18 "the community will fix it" is the BEST legitimate use case for being root. (or is this another one of those "is not a phone its a platform" doublethinks? the community will...fix their apps. just like every other mobile platform.) Nov 12 15:09:32 You want Android running on some open hardware in that case. Nov 12 15:09:46 ..and until then, android is a phone, not a platform. Nov 12 15:09:59 android is a platform; G1 is a phone. Nov 12 15:09:59 You're playing with words and you know it ;-) Nov 12 15:10:33 at a minimum, until then the whole "community will fix it" is a lie. the community -can't- fix it. i'd love to get in there and figure out whats hoarking up wifi. but thats not going to happen because the community can only fix apps, not platform. Nov 12 15:10:37 The best solution would be to make hardware available with USB enabled bootloader. Nov 12 15:10:58 Flashing the phone over USB is easier and more reliable than installing OTAs from the SD card. Nov 12 15:11:25 ... which brings us back to the issue of open hardware... Nov 12 15:11:35 jbq: i'm honestly trying to explain that android is and remains a closed system until such time as i can buy working hardware with reflashing access. and i'm not alone - take a look at recent posts in the unfortunately-titled "most pathetic email app ever" thread on android-discuss. Nov 12 15:12:05 I don't know who you are accusing of telling lies. Android promised source and delivered; TMobile promised phones and delivered. Nov 12 15:12:06 Android isn't a product. It's literally a blob of source code. Nov 12 15:12:11 there is an excellent post about buying a car with android on it. lemme find a link. (and its not mine, although i'd encourage you to read mine as well) Nov 12 15:13:40 http://groups.google.com/group/android-discuss/msg/dd0b069c5a1b7a2e Nov 12 15:13:46 michaelnovakjr, grab the full rc30 patch, stick it on a microsd... boot it up doing the power + home trick, alt+l, alt+s Nov 12 15:13:49 and do a full update Nov 12 15:13:53 it's that or the screen is fried Nov 12 15:13:55 I've had a look at the title of that thread you mentioned, decided that reading it would be a waste of my time. Nov 12 15:14:19 Damm: it seems somethng is messed up Nov 12 15:14:27 yah it is unfortuantely named. it got better after a couple days. Nov 12 15:14:49 I agree with Damm - if the system works far enough that you can guess that it has started the kernel and init but the screen is black, this sounds like a hardware problem. Nov 12 15:15:07 oh thanks god Nov 12 15:15:14 and if you can type reboot, he didn't get the update Nov 12 15:15:18 order confirmation for my new G1 Nov 12 15:15:28 that only took 3 weeks to get replaced Nov 12 15:15:38 how'd you break the old one DJTachyon? Nov 12 15:15:45 it was defective from the factory Nov 12 15:15:52 the accelerometer/compass Nov 12 15:15:56 DJTachyon: yay for the replacement :) , nay for the delay :( Nov 12 15:16:01 yeah .. heh Nov 12 15:16:28 i pull up street view compass mode in NYC and it just shows me a picture of the road Nov 12 15:16:41 bubble, pacman, they all dont work Nov 12 15:17:01 the video player doesnt turn when you rotate it, etc .. there is a pretty big thread on the tmo forums Nov 12 15:17:15 people got it to work by smacking it around .. but that didnt work either Nov 12 15:17:16 :P Nov 12 15:17:50 seems fairly extreme Nov 12 15:18:04 I guess I should be thankful I haven't broken my G1 yet. Nov 12 15:18:12 (other then i'd have to buy a new one out of pocket) Nov 12 15:18:20 aww they even are overnighting it, how nice Nov 12 15:18:35 heh .. Nov 12 15:18:51 Anyone know where to get a good screen protector (not a cheap one that is hard to apply) Nov 12 15:19:18 Delvien: intellishield is great. Nov 12 15:19:28 * Disconnect has it on his g1, mbp, wif's bb, coworkers bb.. Nov 12 15:19:51 my wife wants a G1, but she needs to be able to check work email with it Nov 12 15:19:57 * mikez5 has never had any trouble with the screens getting scratched up with no protection. Nov 12 15:20:02 got an associates link too if you want to help me out. :) but even if not its really good. (and some of the extra pieces can be used to do things like stopping the creak) Nov 12 15:20:10 i have a feeling she will be getting a BB Bold .. Nov 12 15:20:25 mikez5: yah but the glass feels like hell and gets really dirty really fast. Nov 12 15:21:53 Delvien, I asked a few of the Google guys that lurk here and they said they tested the screen pretty rough for 18 months and haven't scratched it Nov 12 15:22:04 I was worried about it scratching, too Nov 12 15:22:19 Has anyone made a rinky dinky simple compass app yet? Nov 12 15:22:23 i've kept the factory screen whatever on it Nov 12 15:22:28 and it seems to be pretty good Nov 12 15:22:29 it seems like something that would be out there right away Nov 12 15:22:41 vol: orienteer Nov 12 15:22:45 vol, most people like to think they know their north from their south. Nov 12 15:22:46 Damm, I couldn't stand how that felt under my finger, so I had to take it off Nov 12 15:23:01 KNY, only problem I have with it is when I get the screen wet... Nov 12 15:23:10 or finger Nov 12 15:23:12 Damm, ha! you haven't met my girlfriend, I see. North is in front of her, South is behind. Nov 12 15:23:13 and then it's slippery as heck Nov 12 15:23:20 Or uphill/downhill Nov 12 15:23:29 Damn: it's harder when the sun isn't out :P Nov 12 15:24:47 anyway, thanks Nov 12 15:24:53 I need to check out the market place again Nov 12 15:26:14 vol, depends where you live... for me the mountains are to the east, so that gives you a good bearing. Nov 12 15:28:18 hmm. i wonder if it makes sense to fork the imap-idle email client into a simple biff notifier.. Nov 12 15:28:27 Damm: I kind of know which way is which around me, and I don't really have much NEED for a compass Nov 12 15:28:40 I just like having a fun little toy like this Nov 12 15:28:48 vol, build one of those vibration belts Nov 12 15:28:54 vi.... what Nov 12 15:28:58 that sounds dirty ;D Nov 12 15:29:17 is it a belt that vibrates in the direction of north? Nov 12 15:29:20 https://bandgap.rsnsoft.com/mediawiki/index.php/Compass_Belt Nov 12 15:30:48 KNY: ha, cool. Bre Pettis's jacket is pretty cool too Nov 12 15:33:30 isonnect i cant find that brasnd onkline Nov 12 15:33:34 weow Nov 12 15:33:38 wow Nov 12 15:33:47 fat fingered that one Nov 12 15:34:09 disconnect i cant find that brand online Nov 12 15:35:52 Delvien: cheat, use my link :) www.gotontheinter.net click the ad on the right (yah i need to update my page more often. or.. you know.. at all.) Nov 12 15:43:19 15 dollars!?!? Nov 12 15:43:54 its plastic for pete's sake Nov 12 15:44:18 Delvien, just don't put your keys in the same pocket with it and you'll be fine. Nov 12 15:44:33 ... Nov 12 15:44:36 yeah, I do that Nov 12 15:44:39 phone is fine so far Nov 12 15:44:50 People do the most amazingly abusive things to their phones and then call them pieces of crap. Nov 12 15:44:53 mostly because I make sure my phone is facing flat against my leg Nov 12 15:44:56 After they break. Nov 12 15:44:59 vol, that helps Nov 12 15:45:07 That's a good idea even if the keys aren't in there. Nov 12 15:45:15 brocktice: I just call them pieces of crap when they're poorly programmed Nov 12 15:45:16 Bump a table corner with the screen out and you could be in trouble. Nov 12 15:45:23 *COUGH RAZR COUGH* Nov 12 15:45:38 The OS on the razr2 v8 was much better Nov 12 15:45:44 and the A2DP support was superb Nov 12 15:45:47 Unlike the G1 Nov 12 15:46:26 I just didn't like that it would sometimes decide that when I pressed down, I actually meant down-up Nov 12 15:46:35 so I would key in V, then press down twice Nov 12 15:46:40 to call Valentine, my girlfriend Nov 12 15:46:51 except sometimes it would decide "nah, not really" and stop on Vadim, my friend Nov 12 15:46:51 brocktice: according to store.androidcommunity.com there is a whole line of sony stereo bluetooth headphones SPECIFICALLY for the g1. (yes i know is bs, i just hate that sort of ebay-style advertising. "kingston 4g sdhc card FOR G1/CURVE/RAZR/...") Nov 12 15:46:57 On the RAZR or v8? Nov 12 15:47:00 saying "Hello, suger butt" gets very awkward. Nov 12 15:47:04 lol Nov 12 15:47:14 the RAZR Nov 12 15:47:21 Yeah, I did hear the OS was crap. Nov 12 15:47:38 Disconnect, you can hook up stereo bluetooth headphones all you want. Nov 12 15:47:43 If you want the same thing in both ears. Nov 12 15:47:53 right Nov 12 15:48:08 At low quality, no less. Nov 12 15:48:27 so how resilient is the g1 screen with no protector Nov 12 15:48:39 http://store.androidcommunity.com/t-mobile-g1-bluetooth.htm or - better - http://store.androidcommunity.com/content/accessories/9-115.htm Nov 12 15:48:58 * brocktice rolls eyes Nov 12 15:49:39 yeah the first link is not so bad Nov 12 15:49:45 It's one thing to list things that are compatible Nov 12 15:50:03 It's another thing to name the product and say it's "for" something when really it's much more general. Nov 12 15:51:33 ..and that product isn't compatible. Nov 12 15:51:44 Well... it is. Sort of. Nov 12 15:51:55 It will pair and you can make phone calls. Nov 12 15:51:59 some of the wording is safer in other parts of the site ('compatible with android devices') but android devices don't support stereo at all. and the 'select a product for specific compatibility' ... Nov 12 15:52:00 But it's a stretch for sure. Nov 12 15:52:26 it lists "superior stereo sound" as a feature.. Nov 12 15:52:45 The wireless stereo speakers with "high definition stereo sound" are worse. Nov 12 15:53:23 hahahaha Nov 12 15:53:29 Or bluetooth GPS receivers. Nov 12 15:53:30 That's rich. Nov 12 15:53:39 For a device with GPS built in. Nov 12 15:53:44 damnit. totally unrelated but kvm needs a multi-open lockout on hdd files. :( i just booted 2 vms with the same hdd image. Nov 12 15:53:53 brocktice: not only built in but you -can't- pair another one Nov 12 15:54:23 (I could see the advantages - throw the bt gps onto the back deck or magnet it in the trunk or something when the phone doesn't get good reception in the cabin, for example) Nov 12 15:55:44 But yeah, unlike the headphones, if it can't pair at all that's ridiculous. Nov 12 15:56:37 i'm sure google will come along and tell them to stop being 'android' at some point. right? Nov 12 15:58:39 hi Nov 12 16:00:34 you can't pair a bt gps device to the phone? Nov 12 16:01:05 any clues when will dev challenge 2 start? Nov 12 16:01:51 it already has; didn't you get your golden ticket yet? Nov 12 16:03:33 is there any information regarding a2dp support anywhere? Nov 12 16:03:41 vol: nope ;P did you? Nov 12 16:03:47 mmattice, Actually I haven't tried, was just going on what Disconnect said. Nov 12 16:03:52 no : ( Nov 12 16:03:55 I was just lying Nov 12 16:03:55 I have one. Maybe I should give it a shot. Nov 12 16:04:05 vol: =) Nov 12 16:04:17 Yeah, I kind of wonder what happens when you pair a BT GPS Nov 12 16:04:30 does it give you two sets of location managers? Nov 12 16:04:41 It's out in my car, though, which is currently covered in snow. Nov 12 16:04:47 So I'll try it another time. Nov 12 16:05:20 Leeds: enjoying the G1? Nov 12 16:05:59 snow? sounds fun Nov 12 16:06:38 Disconnect, eh, it's all melty-welty. Nov 12 16:06:44 still. Nov 12 16:06:53 Better for snowballs I guess Nov 12 16:07:40 http://www.wunderground.com/webcams/captaincracker/1/show.html not my cam but thats pretty much what it looks like here. :( Nov 12 16:09:16 Ah, I lived in MD until recently. Nov 12 16:09:21 Definitely further south than MN Nov 12 16:09:29 just a bit Nov 12 16:19:43 adb -e forward tcp:1234 tcp:1234 Nov 12 16:19:47 error: more than one device and emulator Nov 12 16:19:51 (1 device, 1 emulator) Nov 12 16:19:55 known issue? Nov 12 16:21:15 vol, you use -s to set which device/emu you want Nov 12 16:22:14 why can't I use -e? it works for shell, why wouldn't it work for forward Nov 12 16:43:50 Hey, whenever I request GPS location updates, I always get a saved location update even if the GPS isn't working. How do I tell that this update is not real? Nov 12 16:49:06 vol, it's right in the docs: returns an error if more than one emulator is running. Nov 12 16:49:18 vol, adb doesn't know the difference between an emulator and a device Nov 12 16:49:47 erm, hmm. I might be wrong on that. Nov 12 16:50:10 it might be a bug :) Nov 12 16:51:42 anyone aware of anything in the api that let syou listen for holding a button down? Nov 12 16:55:06 blau, you mean a long press or an onButtonDown() sort of thing? Nov 12 16:58:15 on button down, like a worldwide thing like on palm os Nov 12 16:58:22 err neither of those actually Nov 12 16:58:30 keyboard button was what i was referring to Nov 12 16:58:52 im a keyboard pressing kind of guy Nov 12 17:02:10 can somebody tell me the process for the volume keys? Nov 12 17:02:56 + is up and - is down Nov 12 17:04:18 i mean is it a part of com.android.phone or com.android.acore process Nov 12 17:04:30 zewm_, don't lie... + sets the time bomb, while - undresses you with the x-ray camera Nov 12 17:04:31 hah, I don't know man, I was just yankin' your chain Nov 12 17:04:46 crash acore and see if they still work :) Nov 12 17:05:32 question: What is the learning curve to make an app for android knowing nothing about coding other than a bit of QBasic back in high school? Nov 12 17:06:01 did you learn qbasic or did you learn programming Nov 12 17:06:15 umm Nov 12 17:06:17 if you just learned qbasic, id say its a fairly big curve, maybe even harder than coming from nothing Nov 12 17:06:25 Well our programming class was based in Qbasic Nov 12 17:06:26 but if you learned about programming and just did it in qbasic Nov 12 17:06:39 yeah, it was programming class Nov 12 17:06:45 not sure if im being clear Nov 12 17:06:58 ok let me rephrase Nov 12 17:06:59 im probably not, but i swear i understand myself Nov 12 17:07:20 9th and 10th grade I did qbasic, 11th I did C++ and 12th we went back to Visual Basic Nov 12 17:07:32 like I have a good idea of programming basics Nov 12 17:07:47 was any of that object oriented programming? Nov 12 17:07:48 like if I sat here and read up documents Nov 12 17:07:51 no Nov 12 17:07:59 thats gonna be the biggest hurdle Nov 12 17:08:10 i suggest giving it a shot anyway, its not impossible to understand Nov 12 17:08:26 and if you had an interest in programming as far back as 9th grade, then you cant be too stupid Nov 12 17:08:34 Having seen some C++ will at least have made you familiar with a C-like syntax, so you should be able to read through the sample code and API demos. Nov 12 17:08:36 the sdk comes with great examples and docs Nov 12 17:08:56 in high school I was heavy into computers Nov 12 17:09:09 I used to run Linux (Slackware) and do Qbasic/C++ basic programming Nov 12 17:09:19 but then I kind of fell out of computers after high school Nov 12 17:09:51 its easy, android needs more developers Nov 12 17:09:53 get crackin Nov 12 17:10:00 I have an idea for a simple program Nov 12 17:10:04 application * Nov 12 17:10:26 whats your idea, if you dont mind Nov 12 17:10:32 Is there a way to see what apps are using the most CPU? right now my g1 is running 20% at idle :-p Nov 12 17:10:34 ill try to point you in the right direction Nov 12 17:10:50 howd you find 20%? Nov 12 17:11:08 There's a top program on the system. (I wrote it.) Nov 12 17:11:12 I want to take apple.com/trailers and make it a simple list (latest trailers) and have it stream when you choose a movie trailer Nov 12 17:11:29 I'm checking to see if they use XML Nov 12 17:11:32 zewm, do the trailers already stream? Nov 12 17:11:56 Well I was on revision3.com via the browser app and it streamed the quicktime (h.264) videos right from the website Nov 12 17:12:05 that's what gave me the idea Nov 12 17:12:26 the first video player from the android market streamed the mp4 file Nov 12 17:12:29 instead of downloading it Nov 12 17:13:16 huh.. how do I delete all the contacts from the address book? Nov 12 17:13:29 tauno, go into your gmail account and do it there is the quickest Nov 12 17:13:56 otherwise have fun long clicking every contact Nov 12 17:14:08 or do you mean programatically? Nov 12 17:14:20 no.. but I have no SIM card at the moment Nov 12 17:14:25 so it can't sync Nov 12 17:15:14 every other hone I have seen has "delete all contacts" option in the addressbook.. Nov 12 17:15:19 or in worst case in the settings Nov 12 17:15:24 i havent seen that anywhere Nov 12 17:15:37 the big thing android seems to avoid is do something to all Nov 12 17:15:38 if you have wifi, you should be able to sync with no SIM card. Nov 12 17:15:45 or even do something to multiples Nov 12 17:16:25 is there a way to sms multiple contacts without having to memorize them all? (pick off a list or something) Nov 12 17:16:26 so, let me get this straight - in order to use a basic feature called "delete all contacts" I have to open the browser, go to gmail, delete all contacts there and let it update? :) Nov 12 17:17:27 is delete all contacts a basic feature? Nov 12 17:17:35 i think that would be an infrequent operation Nov 12 17:17:36 mmm...im getting an unhandled exception in emulator.exe Nov 12 17:17:47 the sdk was working fine all this time :/ Nov 12 17:17:57 everytime i try to launch my project, it happens Nov 12 17:18:09 well I use it frequently : / Nov 12 17:18:12 you broke something in your project Nov 12 17:18:25 ive never used delete all contacts on any of my phones Nov 12 17:18:45 except the g1 cause it had like a billion contacts in it from my gmail account Nov 12 17:19:17 I even don't remember what account I used to register the phone.. so I can't log in into it in gmail that easily :P Nov 12 17:19:18 i've used factory-wipe before (usually surrounded by backup/restore..sigh) but never delete-all-contacts Nov 12 17:19:21 blau: I have a C++ for dummies book in my closet, should I read up on that first? Nov 12 17:19:35 tauno: email yourself :) Nov 12 17:19:59 ok, i downloaded the latest commit from my repo, it still gives the error Nov 12 17:20:08 this is before the project is even launched in androud Nov 12 17:20:12 android * Nov 12 17:20:15 if it's a feature that noone uses, then why on earth does every other phone have it? it's not like it's a lot of work to do ;) Nov 12 17:20:32 i've never seen it on my symbian devices Nov 12 17:20:33 and I REALLY use it and need it ;) Nov 12 17:20:35 zewm: nah you should be fine Nov 12 17:20:44 happens also with the api demos Nov 12 17:20:59 mikey: redownload the sdk? Nov 12 17:21:30 ive messed stuff up by closing and opening the emulator in odd ways Nov 12 17:22:09 Seems like the appropriate Google Magic (tm) would have been to figure out a way for you never to have to worry about having too many contacts. Kinda like how gmail made everyone forget about folders. Nov 12 17:22:25 it's true Nov 12 17:22:26 * ttuttle hasn't forgotten about folders Nov 12 17:22:31 i dont think about how many contacts i have Nov 12 17:22:33 andyross: the problem is, first google magic made everyone have 25,000 useless contacts :) Nov 12 17:22:35 i just star typing the name Nov 12 17:22:43 but im a keyboard guy Nov 12 17:22:43 * ttuttle still gets a strange feeling when he archives an email without "putting it somewhere" Nov 12 17:22:53 * andyross doesn't use gmail either, nonetheless it changed a lot of the rules of the game as far as email goes. Nov 12 17:22:54 yeah i keep the thing closed most of the time Nov 12 17:22:54 and you have to admit, the gmail contact manager is godawful Nov 12 17:22:56 first rule of #android, blame google Nov 12 17:23:07 also i want an easier way to call a contact's other phone number Nov 12 17:23:10 it's all googles fault, and your fault for wearing goggles to buy google. Nov 12 17:23:18 my keyboard is always on :) Nov 12 17:23:25 right now i have to long press, tap view contact, then tap the number i want Nov 12 17:23:35 wastrel, you dont have to long press Nov 12 17:23:38 just tap the contact Nov 12 17:23:44 wastrel: look them up from the similar-but-different contacts tab instead of the dialer Nov 12 17:23:53 in the recent calls list blau Nov 12 17:23:53 then a tap will open the contact and you can tap the #. Nov 12 17:24:07 Disconnect: then i have to scroll thru hundreds of contacts :] Nov 12 17:24:15 spelldial helps with that Nov 12 17:24:19 but yah Nov 12 17:24:27 wastrel, wait where are you just tapping once to call? Nov 12 17:24:30 andyross: not everyone, a lot of people dont use gmail. Nov 12 17:24:39 ok, deleted all contacts in gmail.. they are still there in the contacts in android.. Nov 12 17:24:41 blau: call log in the dialer Nov 12 17:24:42 and no client that I know of has taken the gmail approach to email. Nov 12 17:24:50 oh Nov 12 17:24:51 Disconnect: spelldial is a 2-hand operation Nov 12 17:24:55 why not use favorites? Nov 12 17:24:56 noooo, still giving errors :O Nov 12 17:25:04 wastrel: no its not. its an app that lets you T-9 dial Nov 12 17:25:07 mikey, maybe you broke eclipse? Nov 12 17:25:22 oic it's an app Nov 12 17:25:23 java projects still work :/ Nov 12 17:25:27 i will look thanks. Nov 12 17:25:40 do I have to push a special button so it syncs back to android and all my contacts are gone? :) Nov 12 17:25:41 i'll uninstall and reinstall the sdk add on for eclipse Nov 12 17:25:44 favorites list you click once to get a list of all numbers then click again Nov 12 17:25:57 tauno, should sync automatically if its setup right Nov 12 17:26:00 blau: good tip thanks Nov 12 17:26:02 My point wasn't to rave about gmail. It was that a lot of the problems of classic applications can be routed around with some cleverness. The gmail example was just that "fast search" was what users *really* wanted, and "folders" were just the groupthink regime that had grown out of the requirement. Nov 12 17:26:19 blau, "data syn.." options are all ticked in settings Nov 12 17:26:30 tauno, give it a few mins? Nov 12 17:26:30 blau, and the phone is connected to the net.. Nov 12 17:26:32 The complaint here was "too many contacts", and I was wondering if the *real* requirement was just "easy contacts to find". Nov 12 17:26:35 ive never noticed a problem Nov 12 17:26:37 don't have time.. come on.. Nov 12 17:26:50 i think theres a way to force a manual sync Nov 12 17:27:13 wastrel: what aboit voice dial? Nov 12 17:27:58 im working on a project that most people are going to think is ridiculous Nov 12 17:27:59 lol Nov 12 17:28:23 :( Nov 12 17:28:24 a sort of command line for calling, txting, running apps, searching Nov 12 17:28:24 Unhandled exception at 0x00436070 in emulator.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation writing location 0x00040004. Nov 12 17:28:34 it's been working fine for over a month Nov 12 17:29:25 itll work a bit like the google search bar combined with quicklaunch shortcuts Nov 12 17:29:30 ..it finally synced back.. yeah.. all my contacts are gone.. it only took like 20 minutes :P Nov 12 17:30:39 if only htere was a way to add this "delete all" option to the contacts app.. hey wait.. there is :) Nov 12 17:30:44 ..if only I had time :S Nov 12 17:31:00 blau, unless it's a widget (it's not), I doubt I would use it Nov 12 17:31:06 you can add it, but good luck replacing the contacts app Nov 12 17:31:07 :( Nov 12 17:31:10 tauno, why not just log into gmail and delete your contacts there? Nov 12 17:31:25 blau, I'm just saying, I wouldn't start up an app that starts up apps Nov 12 17:31:32 kinds defeats the purpose, no? Nov 12 17:31:38 blau, I mean add it so everyone gets this amazing innovative feature ;) Nov 12 17:32:07 ohhh Nov 12 17:32:15 kny, it would be a keyboard shortcut Nov 12 17:32:29 blau, ah Nov 12 17:32:31 if i could replace the search button i would Nov 12 17:32:34 innovation... your G1 vibrates and rings when you fart Nov 12 17:32:37 to cover up you farting Nov 12 17:32:49 KNY, I think it's kind of .. sorry.. stupid... to fire up the browser, enter gmail.com, log in, navigate to contacts, select "mark all", then press delete, then log out, then wait for >5 minutes so it will sync and delete all contacts.. Nov 12 17:33:15 but the closest ive been able to come up with is having my app consume all the quicklaunch shortcuts from a to z and then default to opening that in a second or so if nothing else is typed Nov 12 17:33:26 tauno, I meant through your PC. I know it's not ideal but it beats doing it the hard way Nov 12 17:33:46 hrad reset, create a new account Nov 12 17:33:47 KNY, it sure does but what if I'm not near a pc.. Nov 12 17:33:47 fixed Nov 12 17:33:48 hard* Nov 12 17:33:56 damn, yeah, that sounds reasonable :D Nov 12 17:34:04 Damm* Nov 12 17:34:51 strange, it worked fine now that i launched it manually Nov 12 17:38:18 i dont understand how its so important to delete all contacts Nov 12 17:38:24 that if you are not near a pc the end of the world comes Nov 12 17:38:31 and just use the browser on your g1 anyway Nov 12 17:39:31 i don't know how the G1 works, but my gmail seems to add everyone i ever email as a contact (to gtalk too). most of them i don't even have a phone number for, let alone ever want to speak to them on the phone. if i had to search through that list all the time for the 4 or 5 people i actually ever call, i would probably get annoyed about it. Nov 12 17:39:56 ali, they dont show up in your contacts list if they dont have a phone num Nov 12 17:40:15 well then i dunno what people are complaining about then :) Nov 12 17:40:19 at list mine doesnt Nov 12 17:40:26 they do show in in gtalk tho Nov 12 17:40:40 if you use IM... your gong to just be a sad face Nov 12 17:40:44 setup Maverick for your Google Talk Nov 12 17:40:47 and be a happy face. Nov 12 17:40:59 blau, you can set the contacts list to just show those with numbers ... or all Nov 12 17:41:12 I don't know who would want to show all, but the option is there Nov 12 17:41:24 you know what irks me, how people on the market with apps clearly inferior to mine are getting just as good ratings Nov 12 17:41:33 and dont get the 1 star reviews that i get Nov 12 17:42:01 i wish there was some moderation to the reviews Nov 12 17:42:18 i had some debate about mccain and obama in the reviews of one of my apps Nov 12 17:42:18 what's your app? Nov 12 17:42:36 that one was dg SMS Screen Alert Nov 12 17:42:42 are you dg*? Nov 12 17:42:44 my main one is dgMoney Nov 12 17:42:45 yes Nov 12 17:42:47 ah Nov 12 17:42:50 KNY: thats true for any of them. even if you dismiss the 'clearly inferior' label they are all full of spam and crap Nov 12 17:43:28 yeah, I especially like the one-star reviewers that just say "first!" or something equally stupid Nov 12 17:43:50 or this wonderful review "it suck...does work" 1 star Nov 12 17:43:56 wtf is that supposed to mean Nov 12 17:44:29 actually maybe they have been moderating some reviews... alot of my 1 stars seem to be gone Nov 12 17:44:47 maybe they went back and changed their rating Nov 12 17:44:54 or maybe they just dissapeared temporarily, the market ratings and stats are so fucked Nov 12 17:45:15 or it seems to be that way Nov 12 17:45:36 like reviews that i know were from last week or something are showing up as from the current day Nov 12 17:45:38 every day Nov 12 17:46:06 There are some bugs in the review code for sure. Nov 12 17:46:24 i liked it better, when each new revision was hiding the old reviews Nov 12 17:46:36 now i have no idea what issues users are experiencing Nov 12 17:47:00 I wish the market had update notifications :-/ Nov 12 17:47:03 aside from the people who email me, but for the most part those people actually like the software and are just asking for more features Nov 12 17:47:21 kny, its really easy to implement your own update checker as a developer Nov 12 17:47:34 blau, I know, but an integrated one would be nice Nov 12 17:48:03 i agree Nov 12 17:48:13 i kinda wish you could modify the vibration Nov 12 17:48:21 to double vibrate on SMS's Nov 12 17:48:37 Damm: to be longer and/or stronger so it can be detected? i tend to miss it even when its sitting flat on a hard surface :( Nov 12 17:48:43 damn: catch the sms incoming and vibrate in your own app? Nov 12 17:48:54 Disconnect, yep Nov 12 17:48:56 vibrate is weak, and i thought i read somewhere that theres 2 motors Nov 12 17:49:08 there are Nov 12 17:49:12 blau, there is 2 motors. Nov 12 17:49:16 however some nights it won't wake me up Nov 12 17:49:18 others it does Nov 12 17:49:20 one is for picking thing sup in the home app. which is nice but .. who cares. Nov 12 17:49:22 why does it suck then :( Nov 12 17:49:38 I was just holding it as i texted myself and it was light. Nov 12 17:49:40 :( Nov 12 17:49:43 like 1 motor is dead Nov 12 17:49:51 Damm: it only uses 1 at a time Nov 12 17:50:16 Disconnect, I'm half tempted to move my pages back to my AT&T phone... as it will vibrate for 15seconds straight on texts Nov 12 17:50:30 and i love how it vibrates on each ring for incoming calls Nov 12 17:50:38 so it constantly vibrates as it rings. Nov 12 17:50:43 yah. i had to set a ringtone that was really high and beepy for messages before i was able to get pages reliably (eg at night) Nov 12 17:50:59 I'm going to have to. Nov 12 17:51:04 and that is at cross-purposes with the inability to mute a notification without unlocking it and dragging down the bar. counterproductive in meetings... Nov 12 17:51:15 setup locale Nov 12 17:51:17 :) Nov 12 17:51:36 your home = loud as crap... everywhere else is normal Nov 12 17:51:50 yah fuck that shit. (to quote innumerable reviews :) ..) it keeps blinking in and out of work settings. which results in it turning the ringer back on (and up) all the time. Nov 12 17:52:16 reviews in general, not locale specifically Nov 12 17:52:17 it works fine for me. I defined my home, and work, and it's worked solid. Nov 12 17:53:06 it periodically decides i'm not at work anymore (gps miss? or it reads just the tower maybe.) and goes back to default. then - if i'm lucky,before a notification fires - it will get a hit and go back to 'work' Nov 12 17:53:11 locale needs a I'm at work because I can see this AP Nov 12 17:53:14 I just removed it because post RC30... the vibrate has been less then reliable Nov 12 17:53:19 perhaps that's why my battery life is better. Nov 12 17:53:29 RC30 mucks with the vibrater settings Nov 12 17:53:30 GPS isn't reliable inside Nov 12 17:53:35 Disconnect, tower. Nov 12 17:53:45 it works off of GSM Tower, GPS, and WiFi Nov 12 17:53:57 It does not work off WiFi. Nov 12 17:53:59 right, but only wifi in it's magic database Nov 12 17:54:04 ttuttle, locale? Nov 12 17:54:09 so any of your APs aren't likely to be in it Nov 12 17:54:17 Damm: Not sure about Locale, but there is not yet a wifi location provider. Nov 12 17:54:28 amazingly my AP is excellent at home Nov 12 17:54:29 yah i know how it works. but my point is that it keeps getting location misses and instead of assuming "i might still be @ work" it goes "ooh, defaults, crank everthing to 11!!" Nov 12 17:54:33 can anyone tell me how can i start the music application from my own application? Nov 12 17:54:35 somehow it knows exactly where i'm at within 10meters Nov 12 17:54:45 and I don't recall putting my Lat/Long in my AP's setup Nov 12 17:54:48 Damm: Hmm. Nov 12 17:54:58 Damm: Maybe it does. Nov 12 17:55:03 apple airport extreme Nov 12 17:55:13 will the android take a 8gb micro card? Nov 12 17:55:16 I do love apple hardware. Nov 12 17:55:19 Poohba, and 32 Nov 12 17:55:21 Poohba: ya Nov 12 17:55:26 I got mine for $30 Nov 12 17:55:41 Poohba: 8 and 16 have both been tested. long as its micro-sdhc. Nov 12 17:55:41 oh. i can get the 32... hmmm i wonder if my camera can take a 32. hmm Nov 12 17:55:42 Poohba: Android does not accept micro cards, nor microSD cards. The T-Mobile G1 has a microSD card slot which will accept microSD or microSDHC cards. Nov 12 17:55:47 u got what for $30? Nov 12 17:56:04 8 GB microsd for the g1 Nov 12 17:56:07 * ttuttle got an 8 GB microSDHC for a little over $30. Works great. Nov 12 17:56:12 ttuttle: ...wtf? "nor microSD cards" "..will accept microSD ..cards" Nov 12 17:56:22 oh. i see 8gb on Amazon for $16 Nov 12 17:56:31 type-6 Nov 12 17:56:42 i have a knock-off non-sdhc 4g i got off woot a long time ago, pulled it from my e90 and it works fine Nov 12 17:57:03 type-6 should be fast afaik Nov 12 17:57:06 i forget the actual speeds Nov 12 17:57:18 that's one thing I like about SDHC... they give it types, instead of 1x, 2x, 150x, etc Nov 12 17:57:32 Damm: /me is reminding folks that Android != the G1. Nov 12 17:57:40 Damm: it'd be even better if you had to pass some sort of 3rd party certification before labelling it by type... Nov 12 17:57:46 Damm: The emulator, for example, cannot read microSD cards unless the host has a microSD card slot :P Nov 12 17:57:56 ttuttle, rofl. Nov 12 17:58:05 ttuttle: ah. but that was me not Damm. Nov 12 17:58:07 hmmim using an 8gb class-4 just fine Nov 12 17:58:24 umdk1d3: What brand? (I have Transcend.) Nov 12 17:58:37 patriot, got it at frys Nov 12 17:58:40 umdk1d3: ah Nov 12 17:58:50 Disconnect, I generally buy decent brands... I have a 4gig SDHC in my Camera that's Type-6, and it proves it. Nov 12 17:58:58 i havent been crazy writing to it like i thought i would Nov 12 17:59:01 I can actually pump out 25 shots per minute in RAW Nov 12 17:59:05 cool Nov 12 17:59:12 mostly because the g1 hasnt replaced my main music player yet :/ Nov 12 17:59:29 umdk1d3: /me does not have another music player, so the G1 has been sufficing. Nov 12 17:59:30 Disconnect: do you honestly expect anyone to respond to your email? Nov 12 17:59:31 i get horrid gsm chirping when trying to listen to it in the car Nov 12 17:59:35 im trying to get this button to sit next to an edittext, but it keeps on overlaying it Nov 12 17:59:39 umdk1d3: Oh, that's always fun :-\ Nov 12 17:59:40 the "G1" will never replace my ipod Nov 12 17:59:47 (in a constructive manner, that is) Nov 12 17:59:51 i think the issue is the edittext is "fill parent" for width Nov 12 18:00:00 any idea how i can get em both to play nicely? Nov 12 18:00:01 Damm: i dont think it aims to. Nov 12 18:00:08 though, it would've been nice to have that goal. Nov 12 18:00:15 can anyone tell me how can i start the music application from my own application???????????? Nov 12 18:00:16 unix_lappy, nope it doesn't. Nov 12 18:00:17 jbq: sure. explain how i am misguided and how i can actually work on the camera portion of the platform without having to hack (and subsequently risk bricking) my device. Nov 12 18:00:44 Is there a way to see what applications/processes are using CPU? My CPU usage currently reads 13% at idle Nov 12 18:00:55 svid: in windows? Nov 12 18:00:57 Damm: it's come as close as windows mobile has to replacing the iphone / ipod. Nov 12 18:00:57 or on the g1? Nov 12 18:00:58 savid, ps Nov 12 18:01:17 unix_lappy, meh... windows mobile can never replace an ipod Nov 12 18:01:34 * Disconnect was gonna use it as a primary music player but the official-htc-branded charge-and-listen splitter causes the music player to crap itself every 30 seconds or so. Nov 12 18:01:37 I could say something about only morons buy windows mobile and use that pathetic media player in it... Nov 12 18:01:42 and it's pretty much right Nov 12 18:01:44 I don't disagree with the content of the message. But the way you spread FUD about the people whose help you need isn't going to help your cause. Nov 12 18:01:50 but it's mean to all the people who buy a winmo phone. Nov 12 18:02:17 jbq: point to fud. i'll happily respond to clarify or retract (when i get my copy, which hasn't come in yet..) Nov 12 18:03:17 your last paragraph is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Nov 12 18:04:11 but the underlying premise that the people who contributed the initial android source code aren't part of the community is wrong all the way. Nov 12 18:04:55 is it true that the android folks are a bunch of hippies who smoke weed? (j/k) Nov 12 18:05:26 meth is better for productivity (j/k) Nov 12 18:05:43 jbq, depends on the person... meth makes some people vomit alot Nov 12 18:05:56 which it's kinda hard to code while you're hovering over the porcelin god Nov 12 18:06:40 * Damm <--'s woman has a prescription for morphine and meth (the prescription stuff) Nov 12 18:08:45 jbq: the statements by google of "the community should fix it" is drawing a clear, distinct line between "insiders" (google, etc) and the rest of us, and saying "stop bugging us and fix it yourself" Nov 12 18:09:15 actually, that's not at all what they mean. Nov 12 18:09:19 which would be fine (if somewhat annoying) if that was possible at all. Nov 12 18:09:34 (leaving out the - imho etc - disaster of releasing this thing to the masses before it was ready..) Nov 12 18:09:37 I tried to simulate incoming call in emulator, it rejected. http://fpaste.org/paste/183 Nov 12 18:10:33 The incoming call was in call log, but it did not show up on screen. Nov 12 18:11:36 I don't even think that discussing this is worth my time. It seems to me that you've put yourself in an "us vs them" situation, along with "we have them and they hate us", which isn't going to be the basis for any kind of constructive discussion. Nov 12 18:12:39 jbq: if you can't support your position that the community -can- fix problems with android then just say so. but don't assign positions to me that I haven't taken. Nov 12 18:13:38 Changes have been accepted by the android maintainers that were contributed by people who weren't part of the initiat team. Nov 12 18:13:47 theres no way for the community to fix it and get a working build back on their actual devices Nov 12 18:14:00 without a real ota right? Nov 12 18:14:12 blau, that's more of a T-Mobile issue, then a Google issue. Nov 12 18:14:25 jbq: I gave several examples, and labeled the ones I felt were impossible. explain how i can work on any of those. (camera, for example.) Nov 12 18:14:28 blau, however you can put it on to the emulator... which isn't really helpful Nov 12 18:14:54 blau: some OpenMoko people have Android running on their device from a fork, and we're working with them to bring their changes back into the main tree (it's tricky, because their CPU is slightly below Android's current minimum requirements) Nov 12 18:14:57 the next root exploit that hits... i'm going to install my own and stop doing OTA's Nov 12 18:15:29 camera is great because its device-specific, its broken and its been hit with the "community will fix" label. Nov 12 18:16:11 If it's device-specific, it should probably have been labeled with "the device manufacturer should fix it" instead. Nov 12 18:16:29 And the device manufacturer is part of the community, FWIW. Nov 12 18:16:31 On the "Set up email" page I can enter my email settings and then the app checks them and then goes to the page where I can name the account and enter my name for outgoing messages. I enter both but I can never click "Done". Is this a common thing? Has anyone seen this before? Nov 12 18:16:37 damn keep hoping, I'm dubious Nov 12 18:16:46 (that there will be a root hole) Nov 12 18:17:03 Gumby, try using the manual setup. Nov 12 18:17:12 spikebike, i'm sure there will be... persistance is key Nov 12 18:17:27 damm dunno there's a minimal number of binaries Nov 12 18:17:50 very few daemons, most everything runs as a user, and all apps run inside a vm Nov 12 18:17:52 spikebike, stop thinking of simple stuff. Nov 12 18:17:55 jbq: apps on sd is certainly a platform thing. i'd like to hack on that as well. Nov 12 18:18:01 Damm: ok. I think I've tried that already. The mail setup works for server etc, just not account name and outgoing message display name. I'll try again though Nov 12 18:18:09 jbq: (starting with a simple hacker answer of loopback ext2 mounts..) Nov 12 18:18:19 Gumby, the Email program kinda sucks... so i'm not terribly suprised. Nov 12 18:18:34 you get more detail when the phone is not in landscape mode Nov 12 18:18:38 Damm: I am also emulating android on an htc touch so that could be part of my issue Nov 12 18:18:39 however you cannot enter details that way Nov 12 18:18:40 Disconnect: little of that should be hardware-specific, so the emulator should be able to support most of the development there. Nov 12 18:18:41 Gumby: just install k-9 and save the effort :) Nov 12 18:19:01 Gumby, shouldn't be that much of a deal Nov 12 18:19:05 (assuming that you don't want to wait until open devices are available) Nov 12 18:19:07 Disconnect: I'll google it :) Does k-9 do push email and/or talk to exchange servers? Nov 12 18:19:20 Gumby, no Nov 12 18:19:32 no and no? hehe Nov 12 18:19:33 Gumby, there's an app in the market that does (i dunno if you have access to the market) Nov 12 18:19:38 it's pop3 or imap Nov 12 18:19:39 jbq: so once i submit a patch that works for me (simple loopback ext2 image) and that will work for most of the other developers/power users, how long before I can put it on my device and move on to developing a slicker/better/cleaner v2 implementation? Nov 12 18:19:40 same as Email Nov 12 18:19:45 K-9 is just a fork of Email Nov 12 18:19:50 ah, ok Nov 12 18:19:52 Is it impossible to get firmware unlocked devices directly from HTC? Nov 12 18:20:08 Disconnect: this is an issue of devices, which has little to do with Android. Nov 12 18:20:08 that would be nice Nov 12 18:20:48 I can see why this would make the carriers cringe, but I can't see why HTC wouldn't support it (other than perhaps requiring bulk orders?) Nov 12 18:20:55 jbq: so far devices and android have been lockstepped. remember the code discussion? "where is the code?" "no code until the device is shipped" "..but its a platform." "shuttup, no code until the device ships".. Nov 12 18:21:35 Disconnect: there were some very good reasons why the source code wasn't available before the first devices... and I'm not allowed to discuss those in public. Nov 12 18:22:26 jbq: i'm not particularly asking you to, i'm just saying that google's doublethink of platform vs device is just that - doublethink. Nov 12 18:22:38 No, you're misguided. Nov 12 18:22:58 jbq: and the only parts of it that the community can fix are the exact same parts they can fix on iphone, or symbian, or palmos - the applications. (and the 'fix' is to replace them. its sure nice that we have sources for those, but..) Nov 12 18:23:00 jbq, you are referring to past tense? so i'm assuming those reasons are gone now? (you don't have to elaborate) Nov 12 18:23:08 if code had been released before devices, we wouldnt have root :( Nov 12 18:23:10 Guys, until another phone ships, you're both right (or both wrong, whatever) Nov 12 18:23:20 Damm: yes, the reasons are gone (the first devices shipped) Nov 12 18:23:23 we would have found that, explioted it and they would have removed it before first devices shipped Nov 12 18:23:24 Damm: the reasons are prolly still valid but since the hw has shipped its expired :) Nov 12 18:23:45 Damm: the initial source drop was released within hours of the phones shipping. Nov 12 18:24:14 wasnt it days later? Nov 12 18:24:17 disconnect: can i have a google job :) Nov 12 18:24:18 no Nov 12 18:24:21 DarkriftX, nope Nov 12 18:24:26 DarkriftX: first devices on Oct 20, source code on Oct 21. Nov 12 18:24:30 ahh Nov 12 18:24:33 the phones shipped earlier than the 20th Nov 12 18:24:46 if you wanna get technical :P Nov 12 18:24:49 i'm just waiting for the source tree's to syncup between google and source.android.com Nov 12 18:24:50 the official release of the G1 was the 22nd Nov 12 18:24:53 if that ever happens Nov 12 18:25:02 Damm: it will Nov 12 18:25:04 hi guysIm trying to get started with android, but Im having trouble with the emulator. Nov 12 18:25:15 Damm: we're working hard on that right now. Nov 12 18:25:26 It seems unresponsive, I sat here for 15 minutes pressing buttons and nothing happened Nov 12 18:25:37 can sopmeone point me to a troubleshooting guide? Nov 12 18:25:43 jbq, I'm quite aware, that was not a 'nag' or anything. Just a vocal hope. Nov 12 18:25:52 b0hn: i noticed the emulator performance was awful on my amd turion mk36 Nov 12 18:26:03 practically unusable Nov 12 18:26:09 whats you os and processor? Nov 12 18:26:18 oh I only have a celeron 2.2, with half a gig of ram, is that not enough? Nov 12 18:26:32 wow the G1 phone almost has more RAM then you do Nov 12 18:26:53 Disconnect: you're spreading FUD again about android. With the other platforms that you mentioned, the source code isn't available (and even less licensed under a very open license) Nov 12 18:26:55 think the ram might be hurting Nov 12 18:26:57 if its a ram issue I can go get more Nov 12 18:27:37 i dont know if its that for sure, so dont hold me to it Nov 12 18:27:39 b0nn, someone from google can correct me if i'm wrong, but the emulator runs ARM code... so your dealing with some emulation effects Nov 12 18:27:47 that's correct Nov 12 18:27:48 your processor is taking "x86" to ARM Nov 12 18:27:51 the emulator starts up? Nov 12 18:27:57 do you get to the android desktop? Nov 12 18:27:58 the emulator does exactly that, it emulates an ARM CPU (plus other stuff) Nov 12 18:28:01 and i doubt it's 1:1 ratio Nov 12 18:28:06 so it will be slow on a slow computer :( Nov 12 18:28:09 so it's going to be slow Nov 12 18:28:36 but nothing happened at all over a 15 minute period Nov 12 18:28:37 RAM helps only so much, in this case it won't help much. Nov 12 18:28:45 jbq: i never said the source wasn't available. in fact, I said it was great that most of the broken apps had source to start with. but that doesn't make it open. the ability to -work with- that code is missing. Nov 12 18:28:55 takes about 3minutes for it to boot on My 2.3Ghz Macbook Pro Nov 12 18:28:57 b0nn: the initial boot of the emulator takes a long time... i thought it crashed... it took about 20 minutes Nov 12 18:29:05 but after that it was ok Nov 12 18:29:16 I have the word android, and a little alien sitting there Nov 12 18:29:23 is that not fully booted? Nov 12 18:29:23 yeah Nov 12 18:29:26 my point is that open source != open platform. and certainly negates the community's ability to fix things. Nov 12 18:29:34 bonn: let it go overnight Nov 12 18:29:42 some machines it takes foreverrrr to start Nov 12 18:29:43 Disconnect: what can't you fix right now? Nov 12 18:30:13 romainguy: camera. scheduler. backup/restore application. Nov 12 18:30:16 we cant fix the lock screen Nov 12 18:30:25 whats wrong with the scheduler? Nov 12 18:30:26 romainguy: lock screen, good one blau. Nov 12 18:30:32 Disconnect: your problem is with open devices, and the fact that android as it's been released doesn't currently run on open devices. Nov 12 18:30:42 Disconnect: you have the source code for the lock screen? so why can't you fix it? Nov 12 18:30:47 blau: when i hit home and it takes 60-90 seconds to do more tan paint the background, thats a bug :) its less frequent than it was in rc19 but.. Nov 12 18:30:55 Disconnect: camera, if it's in the proprietary code, there's not much even us can do Nov 12 18:31:25 Disconnect: backup/restore, you can also do it with the git tree Nov 12 18:31:37 yup. ditto with vpn, and apps on SD. Nov 12 18:31:40 Disconnect: and that has nothing to do with the scheduler Nov 12 18:31:46 romainguy: its not, its just broken platform implentation. (or so i've been told by @google, i haven't dug into it yet). the word i got is the app has some room for improvement (which is fine, and doable if you rename/replace it..) but the problem was mostly in the platform backend Nov 12 18:31:58 How do I tell when the emulator is ready? Nov 12 18:32:03 how can we put a new lock screen back on a g1, not possible at the moment right? Nov 12 18:32:05 Disconnect: then grab the platform source and fix it Nov 12 18:32:16 blau: not with the SDK Nov 12 18:32:25 romainguy: ok. step one, lets put some timing in and see where its hanging. oops. it takes no time at all for the emulator to return it's fake picture. Nov 12 18:32:28 b0nn: you get something resembling a gui Nov 12 18:32:35 Disconnect, you cannot blame google for the "platform" being locked. You bought a Cell Phone, T-Mobile does not want you to have full reign, that's normal for Cell Phone Carriers. Nov 12 18:33:00 if you want full control over your device, you need to buy a device that no carrier wants... (OpenMoko) Nov 12 18:33:20 i guess it really does boil down to the fucking platform Nov 12 18:33:27 Disconnect: sorry, didn't catch you were talking about Camera again; like I said for Camera there are things that even us cannot change Nov 12 18:33:30 I have the picture of the phone, with the word "android" and a picture of an alien on it Nov 12 18:33:37 is that fully ready? Nov 12 18:33:41 no Nov 12 18:33:42 bonn: still loading, its ready to use when you see the desktop Nov 12 18:33:47 b0nn, nope Nov 12 18:33:50 ohh Nov 12 18:33:52 ok Nov 12 18:33:53 it could be 20 minutes, id go watch a movi Nov 12 18:33:53 e Nov 12 18:33:58 heh Nov 12 18:34:01 and then never close the emulator down again Nov 12 18:34:12 as long as I know then its not so bad Nov 12 18:34:16 even if you close it the next startup should be much faster Nov 12 18:34:25 yep Nov 12 18:34:28 (as the system won't have to dexopt the applications) Nov 12 18:34:29 first time is always a pain Nov 12 18:34:48 romainguy: sorry, gotta fire off a vm creator, brb :) Nov 12 18:35:25 blau: no need to swear, that won't accomplish much except getting people annoyed. Yes, the platform isn't currently perfect, and it'll improve over time. Nov 12 18:35:51 ! Nov 12 18:35:57 its telling me no service Nov 12 18:36:03 thats ready yeah :) Nov 12 18:36:05 its working! Nov 12 18:36:13 awesome, thanks Nov 12 18:36:19 anyway. that may be incorrect (that the platform can fix the camera) and it even might be incorrect that the scheduler has nothing to do with the device being io-bound when drawing the home screen. BUT.. these are things the community has been told to fix. Nov 12 18:36:27 I think you guys are thrashing the wrong people. The engineers here surely aren't accountable for the G1 being a locked down device. Nov 12 18:36:41 Nov 12 18:36:57 the solution is to hire us so we can fix things Nov 12 18:37:01 pawalls: they are accountable for the statement that "all your problems will be fixed if you just stop bitching and start fixing them".. Nov 12 18:37:19 Disconnect: well open source goes two ways :) Nov 12 18:37:26 Disconnect, I'd imagine that's paraphrasing to a very large degree. Nov 12 18:37:38 With a fair amount of artistic license. Nov 12 18:37:38 :-P Nov 12 18:37:41 Disconnect: do you consider the android engineers who wrote the initial android code part of "the community"? Nov 12 18:38:42 romainguy: like i said.. camera app. show me how to fix. or (to pick off my list) wifi problems. 2-minute timeout instead of going to 802.11b powersave mode, etc. Nov 12 18:39:02 Disconnect: I just told you *twice* that you might be right about Camera Nov 12 18:39:10 you can keep bitching all you want about it, that won't change a thing Nov 12 18:39:21 jbq: depends. some animals are more equal than others. do they go through the same process that, say, i do to submit patches? Nov 12 18:39:29 Disconnect: yes Nov 12 18:39:31 Disconnect: yup. Nov 12 18:40:01 so where is the public submission of the root console fix? or (better, since its not all security..) the patches between rc18 and rc28? Nov 12 18:40:26 cuz maybe i'm on the wrong lists but i didn't see those patches submitted for review or anything. Nov 12 18:40:27 like we said several times, the external git tree is not yet in sync with our internal tree Nov 12 18:40:33 Actually, what was open-sourced was beyond rc28 already, and we won't be able to publish a back-history. Nov 12 18:40:35 because we are moving the entire project from perforce to git Nov 12 18:40:39 and it takes a lot of time and efforts Nov 12 18:40:49 we have teams that work very hard every day to do exactly that Nov 12 18:40:50 Disconnect, I'd like to point out that the root console fix doesn't even technically need to be released since the relevant code is Apache licensed :-P Nov 12 18:40:54 romainguy: i didn't ask for it in the tree, i accept that hte tree is outdated and will be fixed someday. thats fine.. Nov 12 18:41:03 and like jbq said, the open source code is beyond rc28 anyway :)) Nov 12 18:41:14 pawalls: absolutely. but if you go down that road it -really- makes "open source" into doublethink. Nov 12 18:41:43 Another aspect to keep in mind is that the notion of RC19 or RC28 is specific to the US G1, it's not an android thing. Nov 12 18:42:26 Disconnect, It's entirely possible that the carrier (tmobile) pushed the fix out on their own and never intend to give those changes back to the community. Nov 12 18:42:31 jbq, that seems to be the real disconnect with disconnect... he is taking the G1, as Android... and as the issue. Nov 12 18:43:13 there are patches to a ton of other apps that are not security-related (or at least, haven't been admitted to be security) in rc30. where did those patches get submitted for public review? (again, i know the repo is outdated, but if internal devs go through the same hoops as external ones then there is gonna be a public list somewhere where these things happen, right?) Nov 12 18:43:28 Disconnect, You can't blame Google engineers for such things. The engineers are doing what they can to create a good open source project w/ Android.. if the carriers don't want to cooperate, there's nothing Google can do about it. Nov 12 18:43:50 google should have mad a google license! Nov 12 18:43:57 blau: ugh Nov 12 18:44:09 pawalls, exactly Nov 12 18:44:29 Disconnect: like we said, we're working on getting the latest android source in the open such that everything can happen in the open. Nov 12 18:44:50 My hope is that eventually all carriers will have Android powered phones, and if there is really consumer demand for a fully open handset, one will surface. Nov 12 18:45:19 pawalls, my hope is that carriers will stop working in a Communist way and start toking up and being hippie like. Nov 12 18:45:28 jbq, always the diplomat Nov 12 18:45:42 geist: shut up! ;-) Nov 12 18:46:08 jbq: so the answer is really that -some day- (sooner, later, whatever, i'm not going there. could be '5pm today' even) internal developers will do the same thing as external, btu -right now- they do not.. yes? Nov 12 18:46:09 * jbq smiles at his former housemate. Nov 12 18:46:55 Disconnect: that's currently correct, for a very small period of time. Nov 12 18:46:57 Disconnect: are you implying that internal developers have to submit code and have external ones review it before it's accepted? Nov 12 18:47:08 if that's what you're getting out, i seriously doubt it Nov 12 18:47:42 there's not even a clear notion of internal vs external. Nov 12 18:47:47 nah the internal google tree is just not the same as the external. Nov 12 18:48:01 you can't write crap code and commit it and have it go unnoticed Nov 12 18:48:40 geist: if i submit to android, i do it in a public forum and public members can comment. repo 'owners'/gatekeeps will obviously (just for now? dunno) be google employees, but they'd be expected to be fair. if a google employee submits to android, right now, they do it in private and it might show up in one of the rc's or in a repo sync (not bitching that repo syncs are intermittant, thats fine, etc) Nov 12 18:49:39 uh huh Nov 12 18:49:42 and? Nov 12 18:50:03 the approvers don't have to be googlers - they'll be whoever demonstrates understanding of the system they maintain and quality code. Sure, googlers have a head starts. Nov 12 18:50:39 Disconnect, I think discussing RC releases as part of a discussion of the Android open source community is pointless. Nov 12 18:50:46 come on jbq, stop trying to be so diplomatic. Of course google folks have a lot more leeway, that's how it is. they wrote the code. Nov 12 18:50:52 so what? Nov 12 18:51:06 to expect anything else is ridiculous Nov 12 18:51:10 that throws a big wrench in the "every submitter is equal, internal to google or external" line because it is not possible for an external developer to participate on even footing with internal devs. they get the (admittedly dubious :) ..) advantage of avoiding public scrutiny of their patches and they get to shortcut the process. (they also get to test their code on actual devices, which was my earlier point.) Nov 12 18:51:14 Disconnect, The RC releases will inevitably be different than whatever is in git head at any time, and it's possible that some things won't even make it back into the public git repo. Nov 12 18:51:18 geist: actually, we didn't write all the code, and there are some modules where approvers won't be googlers right away. Nov 12 18:51:55 sure, but the stuff you didn't write is presumably the closed source blobs that deal with the hardware Nov 12 18:51:57 jbq: to be clear, i was trying to indicate that googlers wouldn't be the only gatekeepers, and that i expected they'd be fair. Nov 12 18:52:25 yup. Nov 12 18:52:38 Disconnect, So how do you recommend the device problem be solved? Nov 12 18:52:42 and at first it wouldn't be at all surprising if they -were- the only gatekeepers. cuz they have The Power :) Nov 12 18:52:50 geist: actually, big blobs like the speech recognition engine or the media core came from the outside. Nov 12 18:52:58 ah that. yeah Nov 12 18:53:01 Disconnect, The source is open so you can test out things like lock screen on other devices if you port the platform. Nov 12 18:53:04 (not counting all the open-source projects that were incorporated, of course) Nov 12 18:53:22 Disconnect, You can petition T-Mobile or HTC to get firmware unlocked Dream devices. Nov 12 18:53:24 media core, i definitely understand. grmbl Nov 12 18:53:37 pawalls, haha good luck on that. Nov 12 18:53:42 But I don't know that bitching at Android developers is going to really get you anywhere. Nov 12 18:53:59 it's not HTC it's really T-mobile. Nov 12 18:54:14 but at the same time, this is the most open device that has been commercially sold in the US Nov 12 18:54:28 so you should praise T-Mobile for doing it, and Google for making it happen Nov 12 18:54:46 Indeed. It's a step in the right direction. Revolutions don't happen over night ;-) Nov 12 18:54:48 probably maks him feel better. And the google devs can just go to the cafeteria and get a latte, or a massage Nov 12 18:55:13 damm: until we can modify the platform, the device is no more or less open than the iphone. it has more application source behind it, but thats all.. Nov 12 18:55:52 Disconnect: why don't you get an iPhone and go yell at the Apple engineers on #iphone-dev? :) Nov 12 18:56:09 and if you seriously want to put the devs on an even footing internal and external, reflash all their g1s with retail firmware. otherwise there will -always- be an advantage to teh devs who can test on real hardware. Nov 12 18:56:42 Disconnect, One could argue that being able to install applications from 3rd parties without jailbreaking makes the G1 slightly more open than the iPhone. Nov 12 18:57:01 but the same as symbian. Nov 12 18:57:23 Disconnect: So here's the trick. The device isn't open, the platform is. Nov 12 18:57:28 Disconnect, it is more open then the iphone, as you can write your own applications for it, test it, hand it out without having apple slap you. Nov 12 18:57:41 i believe the iphone still lets you do imei-based development installations as well (so app devs can sign it with 'n' number of imeis and install on those phones. yes, that is not as open as android, but its still more open than people claim) Nov 12 18:57:43 The telco industry sucks a bit that way. But at least now there's one less problem to oslve. Nov 12 18:57:45 Disconnect, You're being very nearsighted. Having the platform be open will be a big win, you're just not looking at the big picture. Nov 12 18:57:49 Damm: actually, see above :) Nov 12 18:57:58 Even as is, the G1 is much more open then iPhone ever will be. Nov 12 18:58:18 sure. and that puts it exactly smack dab where symbian, palm and wm are... Nov 12 18:58:24 pawalls: sup Nov 12 18:58:44 not really, you have all the code for Android, you can re-write Settings, or whatever you want and install it on your G1 and wham Nov 12 18:58:46 only without the ability to do backups :) Nov 12 18:59:06 Disconnect: grab the tree, start working on a back feature, submit it :p Nov 12 18:59:06 you can change quite alot on the G1, you just don't have root (wah) Nov 12 18:59:47 * Damm declares romainguy our Gestapo agent prodding us to stop bitching and work harder/faster/more. Nov 12 18:59:57 Damm: thats applications. so sure, its nice that there is application source code out there, but the "open platform" is not open. (unless someone reasonably expects a carrier to release a reflashable phone? .. right. and besides, thats a can of worms google would probably liek to avoid, since it opens up fork-hell) Nov 12 19:00:09 Disconnect: when we buy G1s from T-Mobile, we can't flash them either. It's a pain for us too. We're limited to what we can get from HTC. Nov 12 19:00:19 romainguy, and don't take that the wrong way. Nov 12 19:00:26 Damm: I don't :) Nov 12 19:00:40 Damm: like I said, it's two ways; pushing Android out was a huge effort (not just technical but also to convince carriers, manufacturers, etc.) Nov 12 19:00:56 hey if i work for google doing something on android can iget a reflashable phone? Nov 12 19:00:59 jbq: "when we buy from tmobile" sure.. but you can't tell me that most of the devs aren't running engineering units. Nov 12 19:01:01 jasta, what's up pimp? Nov 12 19:01:03 Damm: and I find it a bit... surprising to see people who keep asking for more without contributing back Nov 12 19:01:11 jbq: So can we take that to mean that there's no hardware access from the cpu environment that allows reflashing the first stage bootloader at all? A write-only mapping or somesuch? Nov 12 19:01:22 Damm: yes there are shotcomings to Android, we know, and we want things to get better Nov 12 19:01:32 romainguy, don't be suprised. It's actually quite common if you ask me. Nov 12 19:01:38 It's more frustrating Nov 12 19:01:38 romainguy: i'm not surprised Nov 12 19:01:45 Damm: yes frustrating is the right word Nov 12 19:01:47 Disconnect: correct, google has a few units directly from HTC that we can flash. Nov 12 19:02:10 andyross: actually, recovery can flash the bootloader. Nov 12 19:02:32 So at least in principle, you *could* recover phones from T-Mobile then. Nov 12 19:02:42 Damm: and for what it's worth a very large amount of work we did/do happened/happens on the emulator :) Nov 12 19:02:44 jbq: i'm dubious but i'll take your word for it. maybe its just that there is a higher than average number of them hanging out here :/ Nov 12 19:02:56 I mentioned this example already, but the touch UI was mostly implemented without physical devices :)) Nov 12 19:02:59 andyross: except that we don't have the keys. Nov 12 19:03:26 romainguy, I gathered that much. However, I'm quite impressed, and it's still quite open to me, to let the users/developers hack/fix do whatever they want. Nov 12 19:03:43 Just because you can't flash your own phone, wah. Nov 12 19:03:45 jbq: isn't recovery what jf hacked up to use test keys? so.. Nov 12 19:03:52 well AT&T said ANdroid is not open enough for them ^^ Nov 12 19:03:54 Not sure I'm following. If you have hardware access, you don't need keys. Keys would be interpreted by software, that you can reflash. Are you saying that you could reflash the bootloader using code inside the bootloader? Nov 12 19:04:04 wow, we got the full google group going now Nov 12 19:04:20 google is gonna smack us Nov 12 19:04:22 andyross: you'd think, but the msm chip is more locked down that that Nov 12 19:04:33 the a11 actually can't write to the flash that the primary bootloader lives on Nov 12 19:04:37 since that's the radio's flash Nov 12 19:04:45 blau im sure they want to smack us or tmobile Nov 12 19:04:48 er at least the section of flash that it lives on (it's different on 7225) Nov 12 19:04:52 shouldnt this talk be in android dev maybe? Nov 12 19:04:53 geist, that's interesting... but makes sense. Nov 12 19:04:58 which i just realised existed Nov 12 19:04:59 lol Nov 12 19:05:10 blau: #android-dev is for code discussion :) Nov 12 19:05:10 there's a hardware interlock that prevents you from accessing certain sectors Nov 12 19:05:10 geist: Thanks, that was my suspicion too. But jbq's statement that the bootloader could be reflashed game me a brief moment of hope :) Nov 12 19:05:17 andyross: sorry, I meant, on a non-rooted G1, we (google) can't reflash a different bootloader, because we don't have the keys to sign an OTA package that would contain a new bootloader. Nov 12 19:05:54 and that answers another question I had completely :) Nov 12 19:06:12 that's what I love about jbq... he gives answers if you read between the lines.... very good answers Nov 12 19:07:00 FWIW, no one in their right mind would give the development group the production keys anyway. No doubt any TMO engineers working on the G1 would be in the same boat. Nov 12 19:07:35 yeah, somewhere jbq learned tact and how to communicate clearly Nov 12 19:07:38 andyross: yah. it looks like htc actually holds the keys, or at least they generated them. Nov 12 19:07:42 andyross, i've been quite impressed in how the OTA keys are handled. Quite elegant. Nov 12 19:07:54 cool beans Nov 12 19:07:57 ajax irc Nov 12 19:08:14 s Nov 12 19:08:19 Disconnect, It seems more likely that TMobile would have the OTA keys. Nov 12 19:08:32 geist: yeah, I grew up from being a young idiot to being an old one. Nov 12 19:09:01 [20:02:10] andyross: actually, recovery can flash the bootloader. Nov 12 19:09:05 the spinner needs to have automatic filtering imo Nov 12 19:09:07 without passing the task to bootloader itself? Nov 12 19:09:12 blau2: Mibbit is pretty cool (although I find I still prefer pidgin). The developer (axod) is active in the #startups channel if you have questions. Nov 12 19:10:07 cmonex: I don't know the exact details. I know that an extra reboot is needed. It might be that recovery puts the new bootloader in a shared place, and reboots to make the old bootloader flash the new one. Nov 12 19:10:10 damn mibbit doesnt seem to work on g1 browser :( Nov 12 19:10:20 blau, yes it does Nov 12 19:10:22 [20:03:55] Not sure I'm following. If you have hardware access, you don't need keys. Keys would be interpreted by software, that you can reflash. Are you saying that you could reflash the bootloader using code inside the bootloader? -> obviously the bootloader has flashing ability. now question why is this not made public / images release for it... who was the google guy who promised to ask about this? :) Nov 12 19:10:26 jbq: yeah, i think the a9 does the flashing Nov 12 19:10:29 <`vip> hey romainguy, you about ? Nov 12 19:10:32 so you have to reboot to get it to do the work Nov 12 19:10:38 dark: i just got disconnected as soon as i joined Nov 12 19:10:41 geist: the a9 flashes radio Nov 12 19:10:47 radio boots a11 Nov 12 19:10:48 but it doesnt have to flash the arm11 bootloader too Nov 12 19:11:00 i assume the arm11 bootloader can flash itself Nov 12 19:11:00 blau, http://android-dls.com/android-freenode-chat.html Nov 12 19:11:12 cmonex: that's not a good assumption with msm cpus Nov 12 19:11:14 And now we've come full circle to my deep desire for MSM7k docs. :) Nov 12 19:11:18 geist Nov 12 19:11:18 they're extremel radio centric Nov 12 19:11:22 blau, ive had ppl test that page on the g1 and it works for them Nov 12 19:11:24 the msm cpu's i've met so far were like this :) Nov 12 19:11:29 the devices made by HTC Nov 12 19:11:30 it depends on how to lay it out Nov 12 19:11:46 they may have it so that the radio boots stage1, which then loads stage2 (outside of the radio partition) Nov 12 19:11:47 arm9 protects the nand up to appsbl partition Nov 12 19:11:55 then appsbl (bootloader) is accessible by arm11 Nov 12 19:12:03 this is how htc always did it on other msm devices :) Nov 12 19:12:05 ah, okay Nov 12 19:12:12 What does holding the trackball and power button do it turns on a blue light? Nov 12 19:12:13 my experience is with the 7225 Nov 12 19:12:16 of course I don't know the G1, so just assumption Nov 12 19:12:19 which has a seperate, distinct flash for the radio Nov 12 19:12:24 so there's no place for the a11 to touch Nov 12 19:12:37 mattgyver83: As far as anyone has been able to tell, that mode enables power to the blue LED. :) Nov 12 19:12:42 separate? hmm, on 7201/7500 they share the same nand, Nov 12 19:12:42 ergo the entire appsbl has to live in radio land Nov 12 19:12:45 awesome Nov 12 19:12:47 but arm9 part is protected Nov 12 19:12:48 7225 is different Nov 12 19:12:50 ah Nov 12 19:13:04 btw geist - i missed the start of this discussion Nov 12 19:13:07 what is it really about? =) Nov 12 19:13:24 well, actually 7225 isn't that different. just the one i've been using we laid it out differently Nov 12 19:13:30 hi im on g1 i rule! Nov 12 19:13:33 slc nand for radio + mlc nand for a11 Nov 12 19:13:39 cmonex: strangely enough, it started about how the platform is closed-with-source-available :) Nov 12 19:13:39 oh Nov 12 19:13:39 so we gave the entire slc nand to the radio Nov 12 19:13:47 but the radio makes it show up it is the same chip? Nov 12 19:13:48 but the 7225 has a shared sdram bank Nov 12 19:13:57 I've seen the partition table in radio.img Nov 12 19:13:59 lol blaug1 Nov 12 19:14:00 that's the primary difference Nov 12 19:14:13 cmonex: no, we (the a11) just completely ignore the radionand Nov 12 19:14:18 lol Nov 12 19:14:20 the a9 completely owns it Nov 12 19:14:21 geist Nov 12 19:14:29 have you seen the actual partition file for the g1 radio? Nov 12 19:14:36 i'm trying to explain what i mean Nov 12 19:14:42 nope.I assume they start their stuff after the radio bits Nov 12 19:14:43 Woohoo, the changes I submitted for review yesterday (yes, internally, in the old system) got approved! Nov 12 19:14:46 cant we all just get along Nov 12 19:15:07 geist: yep. but it all looks like it's still one chip. i believe you if you say it isn't. just funny how the partition table is still the same as on 7201 Nov 12 19:15:09 cmonex: also keep in mind when i say 'we' I dont work for android Nov 12 19:15:13 it's a different we Nov 12 19:15:20 oh i thought you did.. who do you work for, htc? :)) Nov 12 19:15:31 btw see my line above, hope it makes sense? Nov 12 19:15:32 hah, no Nov 12 19:15:45 the hint is that i work about 2 miles from google Nov 12 19:15:56 youre a contractor? Nov 12 19:16:05 no no, i dont work for or with android at all Nov 12 19:16:09 Yeah, that really narrows down the list of potential wireless companies, it does. :) Nov 12 19:16:13 i just follow it, since my homies are all at android Nov 12 19:16:26 geist, you the palm guy? Nov 12 19:16:26 Someone in silicon valley is using MSM7k parts? Do tell. Nov 12 19:16:35 i'm not familiar with the place where google is so that tells me nothing :) Nov 12 19:16:38 lots of people are using this thing Nov 12 19:16:44 DarkriftX: uhhh Nov 12 19:16:54 Guys, if he wanted to say, he would have. Nov 12 19:17:02 if he didnt, he wouldnt hint Nov 12 19:17:02 no i work at palm Nov 12 19:17:15 * DarkriftX pays attention Nov 12 19:17:21 really palm? Nov 12 19:17:32 btw i think i saw you before geist, on some arm channel Nov 12 19:17:35 ah yes on beagle =P Nov 12 19:17:46 yeah, the beagleboard group overflows here Nov 12 19:18:03 palm rules! Nov 12 19:18:06 i have to remind myself sometimes which channel i'm on, so i quit talking about omap3 Nov 12 19:18:17 :) Nov 12 19:18:37 geist: same here, cept about fat girls and strippers :\ Nov 12 19:18:48 geist: so if you are not with google or htc, how are you sure the 7225 has two separate flash like that? Nov 12 19:18:50 treo pro is msm7k Nov 12 19:18:52 just curious Nov 12 19:19:04 yep, we have msm7k products as well Nov 12 19:19:20 hmm, my htc diamond also has 2 flash Nov 12 19:19:26 a lot of companies use it. it's the only thing that cheap that does gsm + cdma + single chip Nov 12 19:19:28 still the arm11 bootloader on it flashes itself :) Nov 12 19:19:40 because the 2nd flash is just storage for the WM OS :) Nov 12 19:20:05 heaven forbid palm actually work on something new Nov 12 19:20:18 lol Nov 12 19:20:24 damned palm Nov 12 19:20:30 anyway Nov 12 19:20:34 the palmdroid Nov 12 19:20:49 geist: they used to. ever look at palmos development? it was 'new' all right.. Nov 12 19:20:58 yeah, that's a real piece of shit Nov 12 19:21:12 it's even better once you get all the internal dirt about why this or that decision was made Nov 12 19:21:20 heh Nov 12 19:21:29 FYI, I actually got a pretty reasonable response from HTC. As I suspected, they have an exclusive agreement to only sell handsets to T-Mobile. No firmware unlocked phones from them in other words ;-) Nov 12 19:21:30 and then all the leftover palm people still hate the Be people that 'came in and messed it all up' Nov 12 19:21:33 which is kind of funny Nov 12 19:21:38 i dont think it is easy to understand palm ?? :) Nov 12 19:22:15 pawalls, well T-Mobile has a vested interest to not unlock the firmware also. Nov 12 19:22:21 i wanted to [get paid to] learn palm dev way back when. so we ported a middleware interface over. (we had a small palm division, so..) i quickly gave that up as a bad job adn just wrote the server side, let the palm guys deal with that disaster :) Nov 12 19:22:23 T-Mobile's 3G network is a bit rickity right now Nov 12 19:22:36 and until they get it stabalized they're trying to keep you from punishing the towers Nov 12 19:22:54 hah, they were saying that 6 years ago when we shipped the sidekick Nov 12 19:23:05 OMG DONT USE THE NETWORK ITLL FALL OVER Nov 12 19:23:15 geist, sadly that's about true. Nov 12 19:23:24 somedays I think T-Mobile's network is put together with duck tape Nov 12 19:24:41 * DarkriftX wonders whats wrong with duct tape Nov 12 19:24:49 i think duct tape might make their network more reliable Nov 12 19:25:05 hmm Nov 12 19:25:16 hungarian tmobile network seems fine here. Nov 12 19:25:20 yeah, i think they just use scotch tape Nov 12 19:25:28 tmobile US == voicestream Nov 12 19:25:30 Damm, I think you could punish their data network without having a firmware unlocked handset. Which is why they have the ToS saying they will bandwidth limit you over the monthly cap. Nov 12 19:25:31 btw as for sim unlock Nov 12 19:25:34 they were a little guy a few years back Nov 12 19:25:45 friend got a g1 that came from tmobile UK Nov 12 19:25:48 still never completely grew up, i think they're a distant 4th or so as far as size Nov 12 19:25:56 worked with tmobile HU sim, not with others :) Nov 12 19:26:37 since they're the underdog they tend to take more risks though, and ship stuff like the sidekick or G1 Nov 12 19:26:40 so it's all good Nov 12 19:26:49 sidekick rules! Nov 12 19:26:56 it does indeed... Nov 12 19:27:03 g1 is like sidekick ++ Nov 12 19:27:51 not surprising Nov 12 19:27:59 since a good portion of danger folks went to android Nov 12 19:28:07 wondering if 2 weeks worth of waiting is worth saving 33 bucks :-) Nov 12 19:28:19 unix_lappy: yes, it is Nov 12 19:28:36 ttuttle: re walmart on black friday ;-) Nov 12 19:28:42 unix_lappy: Oh, *totally* wait. Nov 12 19:28:44 unix_lappy: And buy a few. Nov 12 19:28:52 ttuttle: heh, only need one. Nov 12 19:28:56 if that. Nov 12 19:28:57 unix_lappy: resell them Nov 12 19:29:17 ttuttle: would require multiple contracts :-P Nov 12 19:29:24 pawalls, quite. Nov 12 19:29:43 and T-Mobile 3rd party resellers make about 200 dollars for each sale. Nov 12 19:34:07 my g1 wants to update >.< Nov 12 19:34:19 anyone know how long before it auto updates Nov 12 19:34:26 it doesnt i dont think Nov 12 19:34:31 blau: it does Nov 12 19:34:35 Gary|tp: if you let it update, all your wildest dreams will come true Nov 12 19:34:53 Emulator does not display vibrate icon on status bar.........?? G1 does Nov 12 19:34:59 you can do anything with the update Nov 12 19:35:12 your imagination is the only limit, with the update Nov 12 19:35:16 ya dd94300 Nov 12 19:35:57 is there a way to detect if this instance of onCreate() is the result of a screen orientation switch Nov 12 19:36:25 e.g. getInent.getExtra("isorientationswitch") == "true" Nov 12 19:36:26 if the Bundle is != null, it may be an orientation switch Nov 12 19:36:29 g1er: do you know the reason? Nov 12 19:37:03 no clue :/ sry Nov 12 19:37:03 romainguy__: that wont work in my case because im passing something in the bundle Nov 12 19:37:44 Ramblurr: you are calling onCreate() manually? Nov 12 19:38:02 romainguy: no, but in another activity i am creating this one, and passing some extras Nov 12 19:38:18 but the extras go in the Intent Nov 12 19:38:29 no in the onCreate(Bundle state) Nov 12 19:38:31 not Nov 12 19:38:34 oh hm you're right, i confused the bundle and extras Nov 12 19:39:02 you said "may be an oirientation switch" when would the Bundle != null and it not be an orientation switch? Nov 12 19:39:22 your activity was in the background and the system needed resources Nov 12 19:39:25 so it got killed Nov 12 19:39:29 but you go back to it Nov 12 19:39:35 it's restored with a Bundle != null Nov 12 19:39:55 ah Nov 12 19:40:13 ok Nov 12 19:40:51 <`vip> hey romainguy__ was it you that reccomended a java book the other day ? Nov 12 19:41:07 I have no idea :) Nov 12 19:41:12 Core Java? Nov 12 19:41:19 <`vip> no, wasnt it Nov 12 19:41:23 <`vip> :l Nov 12 19:41:26 Thinking in Java? Nov 12 19:41:36 <`vip> it was either romainguy or michaelnovakjr__ Nov 12 19:41:37 <`vip> :l Nov 12 19:41:42 Effective Java? Nov 12 19:41:45 <`vip> i wrote it down and damnit i lost the paper Nov 12 19:41:50 <`vip> yeah! Nov 12 19:41:53 <`vip> many thanks Nov 12 19:41:54 <`vip> :P Nov 12 19:42:21 Chainfire are you available now? Nov 12 19:42:32 anyone wanna help me come up with a database structure for storing scheduled expenses in my expense tracking program? Nov 12 19:43:10 headfirst java Nov 12 19:43:10 sup cmonex Nov 12 19:43:21 i gotta run to the store but ill be back in 20 mins or so Nov 12 19:43:32 just PM me Nov 12 19:43:39 ahh ok Nov 12 19:44:06 PM sent :) Nov 12 19:45:02 :( Nov 12 19:45:03 mlc Nov 12 19:45:05 er Nov 12 19:45:13 stupid keyboard-- Nov 12 19:48:34 how do i change the date in the emulator? Nov 12 19:49:22 i'd be willing to bet there's lots of things that romainguy__ doesn't even remember an hour ago. Nov 12 19:49:46 damm yes? Nov 12 19:49:52 Damm: I don't even remember what I said 3 seconds ago Nov 12 19:50:08 cmonex, no? Nov 12 19:50:18 romainguy__, excellent. Nov 12 19:50:18 lol. Nov 12 19:50:33 romainguy__, so you're officially done with your iPhone? Nov 12 19:50:42 it's been a couple of months already Nov 12 19:50:49 it's gathering dust in its box Nov 12 19:50:56 my iphone has been gathering dust too! Nov 12 19:51:02 mine too Nov 12 19:51:17 so... this may sound like a stupid question but where can I download the google mail app from? I see the app info at google.co.uk/mobile/android/mail/index.html but I dont see anywhere to actually download the app Nov 12 19:51:29 my wife doesn't want to trade he iphone for a G1 :( Nov 12 19:52:17 Gumby, source.android.com Nov 12 19:52:18 jbq: What if... "something" happened to her iPhone? I don't know, like it fell into the tub or something Nov 12 19:52:30 Gumby: that is a stupid question. :) the platform is open. but not the device. or the more interesting apps. Nov 12 19:52:32 thanks michaelnovakjr Nov 12 19:52:44 michaelnovakjr: they opened the gmail app? Nov 12 19:52:54 She'd use the excuse to get a 3G... and she'd use her iPod touch in the meantime. Nov 12 19:53:08 Gumby, do you mean the gmail app or the mail app? Nov 12 19:53:26 Disconnect: so the gmail app must be purchased? Is that what you are saying? On that URL I posted it sasys its free (as in price) Nov 12 19:53:35 michaelnovakjr: I mean the gmail app Nov 12 19:53:35 Gumby: its not open source Nov 12 19:53:40 Gumby you can't get the source Nov 12 19:53:43 michaelnovakjr: that page is all about the gmail app Nov 12 19:53:46 only the Mail app is open source Nov 12 19:53:52 michaelnovakjr: I dont want the source. I just want the app Nov 12 19:53:57 gotta get a g1 Nov 12 19:54:04 yea :) g2 Nov 12 19:54:06 g1* Nov 12 19:54:07 so it only comes with the device? Nov 12 19:54:09 yes Nov 12 19:54:19 well that aint no fun!! :) Nov 12 19:54:29 I just want push email darnit! hehe Nov 12 19:54:30 the open source mail app will install on the emulator Nov 12 19:54:49 but if you're gonna do that just install k-9 Nov 12 19:54:51 yeah, I already have that. But it doesnt do push Nov 12 19:54:59 ditto for k-9 Nov 12 19:55:53 nothing on a cell network does "push" (maybe blackberry) .. everything just does variations on "connect with tcp and poll/wait" which is pull Nov 12 19:56:17 anyone wanna let me pick their brain regarding scheduling automatic expenses Nov 12 19:56:35 proxy-originated OMA push is a real push. Nov 12 19:56:48 Disconnect: exchange/activesync does push (and from what Ive been led to believe so does the gmail app but maybe not) Nov 12 19:57:06 doesn't it use IDLE Nov 12 19:57:40 Gmail uses a client-originated TCP socket blocked on a read(). Nov 12 19:58:04 Gumby: cell network has packet data (sms, voice, PTT) and tcp (email, exchange-email, blackberry, gmail, web..). sorry but they are all the same. implementations differ.. Nov 12 19:58:36 reliability (eg blackberry 'always' gets mail) depends on how frequently the server looks/is notified and how hard the client tries to stay connected. Nov 12 19:59:00 Disconnect: ok, then care to explain why when I have an exchange account setup I get immediate email delivery? No polling/wait times? Nov 12 19:59:47 Gumby: because the bb server is notified by the exchange server and your client holds a tcp connection open to the bb server. identical to gmail. identical to what i described above. Nov 12 19:59:53 care to explain why you're not listening? Nov 12 20:00:02 romainguy__: after an orientation switch icicle.getBoolean("configchange"); will == true correct? Nov 12 20:00:22 the socket remains open yes, but its the server that is telling the client that there is email available to be downloaded. Nov 12 20:01:05 Ramblurr: I never heard of this, so I'd say no Nov 12 20:01:35 Ramblurr: you should look at the javadoc for Activity Nov 12 20:01:48 KNY: Yeah, the fact that it works for adb shell and not for adb forward is why it was wierd for me. Nov 12 20:01:59 the only difference between gmail's "push email" and (grr, whats the email fork with imap idle?) is that gmail works much harder to stay connected. (or 'gets more help staying connected' if you like. part of the platform, etc.) Nov 12 20:02:26 was SyncableContentProvider replaced or just removed? Nov 12 20:02:40 Disconnect: I guess the term "push email" has been blurred a bit by MS and google then. They are both saying that they are capable of "push email". The client still initiates the contact which I guess is not true push email. Nov 12 20:02:53 I don't think that Gmail gets any specific help abut staying connected. It might just be more careful about using what the platform exposes. Nov 12 20:03:00 thats what i'm saying, yes. Nov 12 20:03:39 jbq: is the sync stuff exposed to anywhere else? i haven't looked (although I think you are correct, since sometimes I get email immediately and sometimes it takes -hours- and/or me opening the gmail app..) Nov 12 20:03:47 in any case, I find this solution (MS version of push email) to use much less battery, which is why for me, its a necessity to have on my phone. Nov 12 20:04:09 Disconnect: I think that the entire sync mechanism is Google-specific, neither exposed nor open-sourced. Nov 12 20:04:15 yah Nov 12 20:05:12 Gumby: apples and oranges, but ok. if you require the ms version then you are in the wrong place, it doesn't run under android. Nov 12 20:07:08 Disconnect: not what I mean at all. I'd sooner not use the MS mail app. (or MS at all). Nov 12 20:07:45 you just said "these identical behaviors on different platforms use differing amounts of battery, but i require the orange one" .. so ok. orange one is over there. Nov 12 20:08:16 Disconnect: or I could just not use email at all. I'm sorry, I phrased it poorly Nov 12 20:08:36 if you care about battery, dont use push Nov 12 20:08:42 query the server ever 2 hours Nov 12 20:08:53 crisis averted Nov 12 20:09:16 blau: currently I use push and its better at using less battery than polling every 5 mins Nov 12 20:09:31 thats why i said 2 hours :) Nov 12 20:09:35 or shall I say "MS push" Nov 12 20:09:50 wait for someone to build exchange support Nov 12 20:09:53 does Android Market run as root? Nov 12 20:09:55 and hope i works? Nov 12 20:09:57 blau: using push uses LESS battery than polling Nov 12 20:10:12 polling ever 2 hours uses more than push still? Nov 12 20:10:13 allthough probably not pooling every 2 hours. Nov 12 20:10:15 Gumby: depends on many emails you get ^^ Nov 12 20:10:21 romainguy: true :) Nov 12 20:10:31 at least on my iPhone, having push email made my battery life a LOT worse Nov 12 20:11:02 depends on the platform and network. how 'awake' does the device have to be, what does it have to do to stay connected, etc.. Nov 12 20:11:11 oh well, I'm stil just testing android so its not a big deal. I can wait for a "push email" app to come out Nov 12 20:11:23 jasta is working on push email :p Nov 12 20:11:25 BB is the only special-case in that the carrier can charge extra for out-of-band notifications (actual push) Nov 12 20:12:40 Note that any given TCP connection is going to drop more than once every two hours (it does in my area, anyway) forcing a reconnect anyway. So you pay with battery for "continuous" operation even if nothing useful comes down the pipe. Nov 12 20:14:25 I guess a battery-optimal solution would be to push something using an existing mechanism like SMS which then causes a pull at the higher levels. Nov 12 20:14:57 bah, only about 60 people used my software in 10 hours :( Nov 12 20:15:29 well used the last 2 versions since those are the only ones that check for updates Nov 12 20:15:45 blau: what software? Nov 12 20:15:55 dgMoney Nov 12 20:16:12 the latest 2 versions check for an update file on my webserver to see what the latest ver is Nov 12 20:16:23 any google devs/reps in here that can discuss the android? totally *awesome* device but it's primary function, the telephone, leaves some things to be desired Nov 12 20:16:25 so I can check logs and see roughly how many people checked Nov 12 20:16:31 is there any sample code directly invoke packet video liabrary in android Nov 12 20:17:09 tripps: yes but your better bet is to file bugs Nov 12 20:17:21 or submit patche...well scratch that, just file bugs. Nov 12 20:17:30 starting with "android isn't a device" :) Nov 12 20:17:45 Disconnect, not sure if these are "bugs" or unintended "features" :) Nov 12 20:17:57 trust me, they are probably bugs :) Nov 12 20:18:03 Disconnect, wanted to have a 2 way discussion to get some thoughts/ideas Nov 12 20:18:07 id like to hear the issues Nov 12 20:18:13 but im not associated with google Nov 12 20:18:45 the main thing that's somewhat frustrating is the key lock timeout that comes up while you're on the phone Nov 12 20:18:58 its a feature Nov 12 20:19:15 so when you have an ivr prompt or need to dial something, you need to unlock the phone which seems ridiculous IMHO. Nov 12 20:20:09 what would be ideal and possibly kill lots of birds with one stone would be to have a separate timeout for the screen and key lock Nov 12 20:20:31 I have to admit that this is kind of annoying Nov 12 20:20:34 I can understand the point Nov 12 20:20:39 so that you don't start dialing with your cheek Nov 12 20:20:51 but there really needs to be a better way Nov 12 20:20:51 I like the 2 minute screen timeout for battery savings but don't need the key lock for 10 minutes or more or unless I specifically hit the hang up key to activate the key lock, if that makes sense Nov 12 20:21:42 But the key lock is just dismissed with a single press. Wouldn't any better way be about equally annoying? Nov 12 20:22:32 if its a configurable timeout it's automatically less annoying :) Nov 12 20:22:34 andyross, the keylock takes a complicated gesture to connect the dots in my case and while on a phone call with one hand gets really frustrating Nov 12 20:22:36 Seems like a reasonable use for the accelerometer, i.e. shake the phone to dismiss the in-call screen lock. Nov 12 20:22:51 neat. Nov 12 20:22:53 fadden, yes sounds like that could be a good solution Nov 12 20:22:57 "what was that whooshing sound?" Nov 12 20:23:02 Oh, right. The gesture thing. Don't have that enabled. But yeah, the shake idea is pretty clever. Nov 12 20:23:31 "i went to unlock the screen so i could put in my vm password and it slipped and crashed through my tv! right next to where the wiimote went! aaaah!" Nov 12 20:23:37 i think dropping the phone should deploy airbags Nov 12 20:23:44 that would be a good use of the accelerometer Nov 12 20:24:02 it already voids the warranty, how much more can it do? :) Nov 12 20:24:21 haha Nov 12 20:25:45 maybe its me but i see limited purpose for the non pattern keyguard Nov 12 20:26:17 if i could, id make it so the keyguard it semi transparent and lets you click behind it Nov 12 20:26:25 on the screen Nov 12 20:26:32 its hard to explain bah Nov 12 20:26:46 if you can click its hardly a guard.. Nov 12 20:27:10 blau, right I think however a simple separate timeout on the gesture screen from the screen timeout would be an easy interim solution Nov 12 20:27:13 what im basically saying is that id like to have the option to remove it Nov 12 20:27:52 or make an alternative that only locks out the trackball Nov 12 20:28:17 imo, the trackball is the only deadly button on the phone that could be pressed while its closed Nov 12 20:28:28 why did google take away the SyncableContentProvider? Nov 12 20:28:49 the back button is basically not destructive, neither is the home, the call button could be but its not easily pressed by accident Nov 12 20:29:10 the touch screen cant be touched accidentally Nov 12 20:29:18 since it requires touching by your hand Nov 12 20:29:56 my solution would be to have a "half guard" that locks out the call button and trackball until you start pressing something else or interacting with the screen Nov 12 20:30:20 blau: can touch the screen with your face successfully Nov 12 20:30:43 thats why the screen turns off :P Nov 12 20:31:20 'interacting'? Nov 12 20:31:40 interacting, touching the screen or using one of the non destructive buttons Nov 12 20:32:05 so its off.. until your cheek touches it? seems less useful that way. or am i misunderstanding? Nov 12 20:32:21 misunderstanding Nov 12 20:32:27 ill explain in like 30, im leaving work now Nov 12 20:32:31 bbiab Nov 12 20:33:13 Gumby: http://jasta.dyndns.org/android/Exmail.apk -- standard E-mail app + IMAP IDLE (push e-mail) Nov 12 20:33:14 Disconnect, yeah I touched my face to the screen and raised all sort of hell on a phone call this morning ;) Nov 12 20:33:14 (but there are bugs *grin*) Nov 12 20:33:26 lol Nov 12 20:34:32 so I like the regular timeout which would only require the call or menu buttons to get back to the screen, but definitely not the complicated gesture while on a call Nov 12 20:34:41 jasta, I assume you're going to stick it on the market eventually? Nov 12 20:38:41 * unix_lappy expects to see some decent email apps once paid apps come around. Nov 12 20:39:28 unix_lappy: why paid? Nov 12 20:40:49 * pawalls snickers.. Nov 12 20:41:14 Crashing quite frequently, though it's possible that I haven't configured IDLE correctly. Nov 12 20:42:10 paid, because email is the ultimate API for geeks and nongeeks alike, and non-geeks will pay money for a "just works" push-email app. Nov 12 20:42:45 ok, but who's to say there won't be a free mail app that 'just works' Nov 12 20:43:48 hi, any apps that keep track of battery charge history etc Nov 12 20:44:12 I don't believe so Nov 12 20:44:16 You could always write one : ) Nov 12 20:44:26 poll every minute or so Nov 12 20:44:35 I have to learn java gui programming first :)) Nov 12 20:44:47 poll every minute? Nov 12 20:44:53 ack Nov 12 20:44:55 dont poll Nov 12 20:45:16 well, have the timer do something once a minute? Nov 12 20:45:16 it should just keep track of last charge time, the level it was charged up to Nov 12 20:45:23 ah Nov 12 20:45:30 I thought he wanted a more thorough graph :P Nov 12 20:45:31 no no no no no no no no no no no no no no Nov 12 20:45:42 i would uninstall anything that polled every minute like that Nov 12 20:45:49 for battery state? Nov 12 20:46:21 it could give recommendations for when it might be best to recharge, etc Nov 12 20:46:29 orci_: in any event, the GUI stuff is actually pretty easy Nov 12 20:46:49 heyho Nov 12 20:46:57 vol, I kind of know but have no experience, I should just jump in it and try to swim Nov 12 20:47:24 anyone using an HTC BA with android? Nov 12 20:47:42 I wish market app was showing th elicenses as well, I am pretty sure what they mean by FREE is not actually free Nov 12 20:47:58 ? Nov 12 20:48:06 MichaelJE2, free as in freedom Nov 12 20:48:15 michaelnovakjr, ^ Nov 12 20:48:22 eh, it would be nice to see the license Nov 12 20:48:45 orci_: Free as in beer Nov 12 20:48:54 most of the apps on marketplace are not free as in speech Nov 12 20:49:01 so people like me might choose to stay away from licenses that they may not like Nov 12 20:49:20 eh, if it makes you feel better, clickthrough EULAs are unenforcable Nov 12 20:49:29 any other repositories, yet? Nov 12 20:49:45 handango is working on one. Nov 12 20:49:55 vol, it could just list the license Nov 12 20:50:09 though, as per marketplace TOS they cant put out an app. Nov 12 20:50:09 does anyone have a nokia n810 with a current version of android running? :s Nov 12 20:50:10 more for knowledge purposes i guess Nov 12 20:50:35 does handango have a website for her project? Nov 12 20:50:44 handango sucks Nov 12 20:51:12 i wasnt overly impressed with handango OR the people behind it. Nov 12 20:51:20 erm, and* Nov 12 20:51:24 +1 Nov 12 20:51:27 needs to eat something. Nov 12 20:51:48 Hey, anyone fiddling with the accelerometers in the G1? Nov 12 20:51:57 not I Nov 12 20:52:01 jasta: any possibility of integrating with k-9? Nov 12 20:52:09 Zelig_, KNY, does Nov 12 20:53:29 Disconnect: i am going to be providing patches very shortly. they can do with them as they please. Nov 12 20:53:41 but personally i'd prefer not to run K-9. Nov 12 20:53:52 just ooc why not? (assuming it does imap idle of course) Nov 12 20:54:16 i don't like their approach. they are just hacking and slashing at the code without bothering to make clean changes and patch the original app Nov 12 20:54:26 and they are doing so very recklessly Nov 12 20:54:31 i agree with jasta, its a waste Nov 12 20:54:45 i haven't looked at the code, so.. but ok :) Nov 12 20:54:53 they actualy submitted their first patch Nov 12 20:55:13 yeah? *searches* Nov 12 20:55:24 http://r.android.com/2630 Nov 12 20:56:08 oh that's a pretty useful one if his analysis is correct Nov 12 20:56:58 yah i was just gonna ask what was wrong (other than the 'm') Nov 12 20:57:43 Disconnect: nothing's wrong Nov 12 20:59:01 i think the proper way to have handled k-9 was through a script which applied incremental patches, so they could maintain all their changes nice and tidy. Nov 12 20:59:16 that way the builder could also cherry pick certain isolated features Nov 12 20:59:29 when I reply to a perso in k-9 or the default e-mail application same behaviour happens. It puts a "," at the and tells me that I need at least one recipient to send the e-mail. I cannot use the pre saved e-mails in my contact list either. I have to write from the beginning each time I compose a message Nov 12 20:59:50 does anybody else have that? Nov 12 21:00:24 jasta, my feedback to the k9 patch (which isn't on that "r" page because I was having an account problem) was exactly the same as you and I discussed; I asked them to hold off for just a bit, because of an impending update from this end, and also to plan to write a unit test for it. Nov 12 21:01:46 stadlero: i do hope that this impending update is coming soon :) Nov 12 21:01:56 stadlero: does the update from that end include Exchange/WebDAV stuff at all? Nov 12 21:02:07 btw, can you discuss any details of this change? will it affect any of the changes we discussed for imap idle? Nov 12 21:02:22 stadlero: that's more of a "should I abandon what I've been working on or not" question than a "ooh ooh gimme" question Nov 12 21:02:26 ..and will tmobile keep issuing updates every week? Nov 12 21:02:32 cuz if not, its kinda moot :) Nov 12 21:02:56 Disconnect: not at all. it's important that we're all working on the same tree. doesn't matter what t-mobile does. Nov 12 21:03:17 plus, with a script i wrote, you can install the stock Email app (or any others for that matter) onto a phone Nov 12 21:03:27 No, right now I'm focusing on bug fixing P1 errors like connection failures, crashers, lack of privacy/security, and localization. No major new features... yet... Nov 12 21:03:34 in fact, i had meant to post that script for the k-9 developers so they could revert their namespaces for patches Nov 12 21:03:58 stadlero: ahh, connection failures is an interesting one that i discovered. Nov 12 21:04:03 while working on IMAP IDLE i mean Nov 12 21:04:20 it seems that the app treats a timed out connection (which was idle) as a connection error? Nov 12 21:04:30 awesome...at my current rate of development, expect Exchange/WebDAV support patch in 6-9 months :( Nov 12 21:04:45 jasta, mostly there are spot fixes, but there is some rework in connection failures handling Nov 12 21:04:49 (I have to run, meeting) Nov 12 21:04:53 later Nov 12 21:04:56 thx for the URL jasta Nov 12 21:05:12 thank me for my work, not my web server :) Nov 12 21:05:16 lol Nov 12 21:05:17 random side note, another simple fix i keep forgetting to list that isn't possible right now/ever: stop the browser from saving stuff to the data partition. (and marketplace, but thats a closed app). i might be able to replace the browser (k-9/jastamail style) with one that works, at a net loss in available storage. but i can't fix the actual broken bits or make the situation better. Nov 12 21:05:32 I havnt tried it yet, I'll thank you when I try it and like it :) Nov 12 21:06:01 Gumby: it is exactly like the current email app except that it has push support. Nov 12 21:06:20 there is one bug which can "miss" certain incoming messages, but its a pretty unlikely case that i'd be surprised you find Nov 12 21:06:25 and i'm also working on it :) Nov 12 21:07:24 Disconnect: why can't you fix browser using the git tree? Nov 12 21:08:04 romainguy: i can, but what i can't do is fix it on any devices. so the motivation is hardly there. "hey, if i put this fix in i can LOSE a ton of storage! woo!" and that assumes the breakage isn't in the webkit native bits.. Nov 12 21:08:21 but if you fix it, it will be part of a future update... Nov 12 21:08:49 stop saying it is not possible to fix something when it is Nov 12 21:08:59 so yes, you cannot replace the Browser on your device right now Nov 12 21:09:03 but you can still fix issues Nov 12 21:09:09 if you don't want to do it, that's perfectly fine Nov 12 21:09:19 just dont complain :) Nov 12 21:09:28 but don't say things like it's not possible Nov 12 21:09:31 Well, complain constructively. Nov 12 21:09:35 it's very different from not having the incentive to do it Nov 12 21:09:42 fadden: that's called creating a bug report Nov 12 21:09:47 jasta: is there somewhere (other than here) that I can view your email app status (regarding updates, bugs, and fixes)? Nov 12 21:09:53 If nobody complained, IRC traffic would drop by 42%. Nov 12 21:10:06 is that a bad thing :) Nov 12 21:10:09 Huh. is that bad? Nov 12 21:10:12 80% of all statistics are made up on the spot Nov 12 21:10:13 D'oh, slow. Nov 12 21:10:13 ^ that's top notch google research btw folks :-) Nov 12 21:10:38 The actual number I made up on the spot is 42.3%, but I rounded it off for easier digestion. Nov 12 21:10:45 lol Nov 12 21:10:50 Much more believable that way. Nov 12 21:12:54 romainguy: thats likely a simple fix, and i might since nobody has bothered with the bug report (#1068 if you are keeping track at home, plus the various forum discussions on how to move it to sd card if you have root) but it is the monster-software-company approach to get it onto a device. so chances are good you'll see devs do 1, maybe 2 rounds of coding/patching before they get fed up and either work only in app space or move on entirely. Nov 12 21:14:31 the motivation for that itch is to fix it on the device. (so now is probably the time, with tmob doing their constant "wtf were they thinking" patch cycles :) ..) Nov 12 21:14:48 are we bitching about the lack of storage on the g1? Nov 12 21:15:15 what lack Nov 12 21:15:24 buy an SD card Nov 12 21:15:34 you cant run apps off an sd card Nov 12 21:15:37 not everything can be stored there Nov 12 21:15:40 you can Nov 12 21:15:44 cept with root, which lots of ppl wont have Nov 12 21:15:46 if you have root Nov 12 21:15:55 well then the bitch should be about the lack of root Nov 12 21:15:59 it is Nov 12 21:16:00 lol Nov 12 21:16:04 this is a specific reason Nov 12 21:16:05 its not actually. Nov 12 21:16:12 err Nov 12 21:16:17 hm Nov 12 21:16:19 i thought all the bitching was about not having root? Nov 12 21:16:20 so you need root even for that Nov 12 21:16:23 shame Nov 12 21:16:25 throwing out the entire security model because the phone hasn't got onboard storage is harldy the right answer. Nov 12 21:16:26 you shouldnt have to make a symbolic link to run shit on an sd card Nov 12 21:16:29 =P Nov 12 21:16:39 I hardly call having root pitching the security model Nov 12 21:16:39 * Chainfire still waiting for not needing root for decent socket stuff <1024 :)) Nov 12 21:16:43 (even though I htink the security model is - nicely put - very poorly thought out) Nov 12 21:16:49 dont think that works blau Nov 12 21:16:59 i tried a symlink to an apk on sd card and it failed Nov 12 21:16:59 oh, well then how are they doing it with root? Nov 12 21:17:01 spikebike: erm. sd card has no ownership. so any app can access any file. thats the whole of the security model, right there, rihgt out the window. Nov 12 21:17:15 disconnect you are assuming fat32 Nov 12 21:17:27 because fat32 is default Nov 12 21:17:29 sd card could handle ext2 for instance Nov 12 21:17:34 Because you'd also like the SDcard to be readable by other devices. Nov 12 21:17:36 but does the stock kernel? Nov 12 21:17:46 id be fine without the sd card being readable by other devices Nov 12 21:17:47 yeah Nov 12 21:17:50 oh Nov 12 21:17:51 you have to add a module Nov 12 21:17:55 so its just ext3 it didnt have Nov 12 21:17:55 stock kernel has no ext support Nov 12 21:18:01 oh, well without root, you cannot add module Nov 12 21:18:04 right, you need a kernel Nov 12 21:18:05 ext2/ext3 are both missing. adding a module doesn't make it the stock kernel anymore. Nov 12 21:18:09 yes, you need root Nov 12 21:18:09 Meh, thatd be a terriubly unpopular choice. Nov 12 21:18:14 yah really Nov 12 21:18:16 thats the point Nov 12 21:18:17 @Zelig_ Nov 12 21:18:23 the only way to do it is with root Nov 12 21:18:44 so yes the g1 has a huge number of issues without root, no vpn, no backups, no storage. Nov 12 21:18:48 we should either have root (with other security measures in place) or have abilities like this without root Nov 12 21:18:54 agreed Nov 12 21:19:02 id like the first one more Nov 12 21:19:11 agreed Nov 12 21:19:12 have root, but make it hard to get to Nov 12 21:19:22 dunno, other communities are fine with root Nov 12 21:19:26 like say nokia/maemo Nov 12 21:19:33 DarkriftX: thats no different than not having it. consider the n800. without root (as it ships) you can do all that stuff just fine. Nov 12 21:19:35 Gumby: currently, no. soon i will just post my patches somewhere. Nov 12 21:19:47 n800 basically comes with root Nov 12 21:19:56 make a special process you have to enter into in bootloader mode, a keypress, sign (with a button) a form saying you understand the security risks, then it runs a script that gives you su access (not just full on root) Nov 12 21:20:05 for now i dont have them posted because there are known bugs :) Nov 12 21:20:17 not to mention cell providers allow tethering, which == root Nov 12 21:20:31 i agree Disconnect i can do a lot on my ubuntu box without root, but not everything Nov 12 21:20:32 The n800 has redpill/bluepill mode which lets you give yourself root Nov 12 21:20:32 make it act like windows vista user access control! Nov 12 21:20:34 spikebike: wtf are you talking about? tethering isn't root. Nov 12 21:20:42 everytime you have to do something interesting ask for access! Nov 12 21:20:52 yeah Nov 12 21:20:59 blau, thats like sudo on linux Nov 12 21:21:01 * Disconnect thinks you are all way too hung up on root. Nov 12 21:21:05 which is actually good Nov 12 21:21:05 thats a surefire way to get the G1 dusty on a shelf Nov 12 21:21:06 disconnect if I have root on a laptop connected to tether how is that "safer" than root on a g1? Nov 12 21:21:31 what is the argument against root on the g1 vs tether? Nov 12 21:21:48 both allow uncontrolled processes access to the cellular network Nov 12 21:21:51 its not about what you can do on the network, it sounds like its more about people trashing their phone Nov 12 21:21:52 vol, i like that name, bluepill/redpill Nov 12 21:21:53 DarkriftX not only am I hung up that I can't have root on my device Nov 12 21:22:02 would be perfect Nov 12 21:22:03 spikebike: lets do it. here is an e90. it has a bunch of system files i can't access and a bunch of user files i can. and, bonus, it tethers just fine. so its tethered. now i'm on the internet via edge (no 3g in the usa, its imported). that gains me -nothing at all- on the phone. nada. zero. zilch. Nov 12 21:22:05 root != ability to brick phone Nov 12 21:22:05 spike, we already basically have unconrolled processes on the cell network Nov 12 21:22:22 right Nov 12 21:22:35 so what is tmo's argument against root? Nov 12 21:22:37 tethering has nothing to do with root. Nov 12 21:22:41 its even more that having root on your own device is considered a bigger risk than storing your data at an external party that really has no reason to be trusted (and many not to), like Google. Nov 12 21:22:49 which is clearly, insane. Nov 12 21:23:24 Chainfire: don't forget, if the application data is important or sensitive it shouldn't be stored on the sd card. except, thats the only place it can be backed up from. whoops, sorry you lost all that critical data.. Nov 12 21:23:27 tmo's argument against root is it opens up competition for service provisions they;d like to keep to themselves. Nov 12 21:23:42 Zelig_: like what? Nov 12 21:23:49 This is a rational preference from their perspective. It's just counter to our interests. Nov 12 21:23:59 which is nonsense Zelig_, as you get full "root" for other OSs they have on their phones Nov 12 21:24:06 Chainfire: not true.. Nov 12 21:24:14 Well, I'm not saying it's a -good- reason. Nov 12 21:24:19 Just that it's a rational desire. Nov 12 21:24:20 Disconnect how so Nov 12 21:24:24 Zelig_: I'm kind of curious what services they sell that you can do yourself with root Nov 12 21:24:45 heh Nov 12 21:24:48 Disconnect> what part of "root" dont you have on a Sprint Touch Pro, for example ? Nov 12 21:24:52 Chainfire: pick a device, then modify some piece of the core system. without hacking it.. Nov 12 21:24:52 Best example I can come up with is not applicable any more. Nov 12 21:24:54 Ringtones. Nov 12 21:25:02 I went through all kinds of nonsense to get a Nov 12 21:25:10 Disconnect if you have the knowledge you can... Nov 12 21:25:11 custom ringtone on my previous phone. Nov 12 21:25:21 Chainfire: the part that allows me to change the browser logo. or replace the font. (i haven't worked with the touch pro but ..) or delete all the system files. Nov 12 21:25:22 vol a AOL/MSN/yahoo chat that doesn't cost SMS Nov 12 21:25:27 oh wait, that doesn't require root Nov 12 21:25:29 Most recent phones seem to be able to get a random MP3 and play it now. Nov 12 21:25:45 Disconnect> well system files you can delete because they are in ROM, but you CAN replace them... Nov 12 21:25:50 *cant delete Nov 12 21:25:54 But if you make it really hard to DIY, then the folks who sell ringtones for $2.50 a pop are very happy. Nov 12 21:26:25 Zelig_: there's a freaking "turn my mp3 into a ringtone app" for crying out loud. Nov 12 21:26:29 does it mean anything for gaining an a2dp bluetooth profile? Nov 12 21:26:30 Chainfire: thats not rom. thats non-root. Nov 12 21:26:38 That's why I said it's no longer applicable. Nov 12 21:26:47 Folks got around it well enough. Nov 12 21:26:52 I seriously cannot think of anything that's not tethering and that's not "running a webservice like sshd from your phone" that applies Nov 12 21:26:58 Disconnect even the kernel itself cant rewrite those files... Nov 12 21:27:25 Chainfire: something does system updates. Nov 12 21:27:25 and I challenge you to do otherwise Nov 12 21:27:25 vol vpn? backups? Nov 12 21:27:29 vol: backups. Nov 12 21:27:38 Disconnect yeah the radio does... Nov 12 21:27:40 ouch Nov 12 21:27:48 err radio Nov 12 21:27:49 wow, big split and still 223 users? Nov 12 21:27:51 SPL Nov 12 21:27:55 thats in the radio, no? Nov 12 21:28:04 or does xchat not recount users after splits Nov 12 21:28:26 hmm. some big pieces of the net just fell down, according to my monitoring. weird. Nov 12 21:28:38 lol Nov 12 21:28:45 california fell into the ocean!!! run!!! Nov 12 21:28:49 not just irc. google is unreachable from here, cnn is marked down.. Nov 12 21:28:53 It's obviously your fault: it's your name, disconnect. :) Nov 12 21:29:02 yeah i cant connect to google Nov 12 21:29:05 or amazon Nov 12 21:29:10 and i was editing notes in google notebook Nov 12 21:29:12 google works here Nov 12 21:29:15 I can confirm that California is still floating. Nov 12 21:29:17 yah Nov 12 21:29:22 so cali is still alive somewhat Nov 12 21:29:28 Disconnect> even if I cede you that part, on which I disagree with you, its still a hell of a lot more root than the G1 is. I CAN replace core system files with my own versions, I CAN load my own device drivers etc, I do have full access to non-ROM files Nov 12 21:29:34 Works from Florida (Cox internet) Nov 12 21:29:36 its routing - guy here w/o vpn is able to get to it. i can get to my fios link but not google from there Nov 12 21:29:38 i can get to excite.com Nov 12 21:29:50 perhaps sprint pulled cogent's plug again ;d Nov 12 21:29:57 Owie. Nov 12 21:30:01 lol Nov 12 21:30:08 Disconnect: I wasn't even aware that there was a backup service offered by tmobile Nov 12 21:30:11 * DarkriftX heads off to the DR's Nov 12 21:30:14 vol: huh? Nov 12 21:31:05 16:27 < Disconnect> vol: backups. Nov 12 21:31:31 and actually, sidekicks are handled that way. so they do offer a backup service of sorts. Nov 12 21:31:36 is there any progress on a2dp? any word on how long until we have this feature? Nov 12 21:31:56 sidekicks rock Nov 12 21:32:02 each app gets some server side storage Nov 12 21:32:08 berto: sometime in q3 next year at this rate Nov 12 21:32:14 but i'll push it back farther every time you ask Nov 12 21:32:23 but app dev is pretty locked down Nov 12 21:32:29 good luck getting something released publicly Nov 12 21:32:55 at least as of sidekick 3, dont know if anything changed Nov 12 21:33:01 Disconnect: I know sidekicks are handled that way (I had one) but I'm pretty sure they don't have that for android Nov 12 21:33:03 i don't care if you push it back, i have a dash =p Nov 12 21:33:14 and that has nothing to do with root Nov 12 21:33:30 aside from "private" files Nov 12 21:33:38 whats the hold up anyways? Nov 12 21:34:03 any got a native android code debugger running for the emulator? (and if so, which one?) Nov 12 21:34:23 Chainfire: I've been using gdb, with varying levels of success Nov 12 21:34:33 vol> where you nick it from ? Nov 12 21:34:36 still having a dash of trouble. Nov 12 21:35:03 Chainfire: one of the google gents here gave me gdbserver, but some enterprising fellow compiled his own version of gdbserver, gdb, strace, and bash Nov 12 21:35:08 and I've been using those Nov 12 21:35:20 the only problem is that attempting to use gdb on the emulator runs completely out of memory Nov 12 21:35:36 and the emulator crumbles like a cheap wet box Nov 12 21:35:38 vol> you got a link for me? Nov 12 21:35:50 http://ortegaalfredo.googlepages.com/android Nov 12 21:35:57 gdb will demand that /bin exist Nov 12 21:36:00 thx Nov 12 21:36:02 so you have to remount the root dir with rw Nov 12 21:36:02 ha! Nov 12 21:36:14 mount -w -o remount -t rootfs rootfs / Nov 12 21:36:34 you'll also have to remount /system/bin to stick these in there Nov 12 21:36:49 so, same deal, mount -w -o remount -t yaffs2 /dev/whatever /system Nov 12 21:37:10 yar thx i know that part Nov 12 21:37:19 i love how he ends that blog post with "I rule" Nov 12 21:37:26 I need to debug my FreePascal app Nov 12 21:37:42 its running fine but refuses to exit :D Nov 12 21:40:03 Chainfire: excellent. Nov 12 21:40:05 btw Nov 12 21:40:24 I had significant success using gdbclient from the android source Nov 12 21:41:50 in any event, you'll want to have the shared libs from the device (and a copy of app_process) somewhere you can reference them Nov 12 21:41:56 vol im gonna have to read up on gdb/client/server stuff Nov 12 21:42:17 Chainfire: so far, it seems to not be hideously hard Nov 12 21:42:28 let me pastebin my method of debugging Hello, Segfault Nov 12 21:42:30 vol> its just a hello world command line program Nov 12 21:42:45 it doesnt use any shared libs :) Nov 12 21:42:54 libc, libm, etc. Nov 12 21:43:00 except, it doesnt :) Nov 12 21:43:04 if you have sprintf, you're using a shared li- Nov 12 21:43:05 oh Nov 12 21:43:06 FPC has its own RTL Nov 12 21:43:21 well, make sure you can reference those Nov 12 21:43:29 they are statically linked :) Nov 12 21:43:47 the biggest part is running adb forward tcp:1234 tcp:1234 Nov 12 21:43:51 (or whatever port you want to use) Nov 12 21:44:02 that will forward port 1234 on the device/emulator to port 1234 on your machine Nov 12 21:44:11 then, when you run gdb, you type Nov 12 21:44:16 target remote localhost:1234 Nov 12 21:44:22 I start gdbserver as Nov 12 21:44:25 good im logging this Nov 12 21:44:34 gdbserver 10.0.2.2:1234 /data/hello Nov 12 21:44:49 do target remote localhost:1234 Nov 12 21:44:54 after you start gdbserver Nov 12 21:44:55 also Nov 12 21:45:01 when you run gdb, you're going to debug against app_process Nov 12 21:45:08 which will load your program and execute it Nov 12 21:45:23 so, I use symbol-file (filename) to load it into memory Nov 12 21:45:26 and set a breakpoint at main Nov 12 21:45:35 ah k Nov 12 21:45:43 though, it apparently sets it at the breakpoint for the linker Nov 12 21:45:50 so I end up doing break hello.c:4 :\ Nov 12 21:46:16 myeah usually my IDE does the GDB part for me Nov 12 21:46:31 perhaps i can get it to work with this gdb so i dont have to remember all that stuff :P Nov 12 21:46:35 internet is back! Nov 12 21:46:53 * spikebike heard that verizon is having major issues Nov 12 21:49:56 do we have tethering capabilities on the G1 yet? Nov 12 21:51:05 ughhhhhhh google notebook lost all of my sections Nov 12 21:51:07 :( Nov 12 21:51:47 ya Nov 12 21:51:53 via usb Nov 12 21:52:09 so now i have 80 notes all lumped together Nov 12 21:52:37 tethering works via usb? Nov 12 21:52:44 I didn't realize that worked yet :D Nov 12 21:52:50 I'm pretty sure Nov 12 21:52:57 only proxy right now Nov 12 21:53:02 spikebike: where are the docs? Nov 12 21:53:26 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=443025 Nov 12 21:53:36 uses socks Nov 12 21:54:14 without socks your feet get too sweaty Nov 12 21:54:41 spikebike, awesome I'll check it out! Nov 12 21:54:43 and isn't the web proxy hack Nov 12 21:55:01 other folks have cross compiled some iptables and was working on dhcpd Nov 12 21:55:06 im still waiting on my G1 to release my own (better, of course) proxy Nov 12 21:55:10 it's already in the kernel Nov 12 21:55:24 yeah iptables is crossbuilt if you build the android source Nov 12 21:55:33 (but no G1, so haven't been able to play with it :/) Nov 12 21:55:49 Does the G1 act as an AP as well? I noticed hostapd on there Nov 12 21:56:07 funny though Nov 12 21:56:17 that topic states firefox doesnt work with socks proxy itself Nov 12 21:56:20 without addon Nov 12 21:56:22 which it DOES Nov 12 21:56:31 I know cause I've tested using a socks proxy on WM Nov 12 21:56:35 has there been any discussion of using the accelerometer to support display rotation without pulling out the keyboard? that would be cool. Nov 12 21:57:00 tripps: evidently google found it unreliable and too much like the jesus phone. Nov 12 21:57:07 Chainfire: I think they figured out later you just needed to set a setting in about:config to route the DNS through socks Nov 12 21:57:10 anyway its time to go home :) Nov 12 21:57:18 ah k incandenza Nov 12 21:57:27 (my setup also had a DNS proxy) Nov 12 21:58:07 its weird it doesnt do that out of the box though... there's a good reason you can supply a fully qualified host name on socks instead of just IP addresses... Nov 12 21:58:09 ok i my g1 is now modified rc30 :D Nov 12 21:58:13 Disconnect, bummer. I hope they change their minds, or at least make it available for those that would like it Nov 12 21:58:36 tripps> I have this on some apps on my Touch Pro, and it's absolutely horribly annoying Nov 12 21:59:37 .. Nov 12 21:59:40 what I have also heard a lot of people wanting is a screen keyboard for quick one handed typing without opening keyboard. yes, I know it would suck as bad as jesus phone keyboard, but it's the choice in any case ;) Nov 12 22:00:03 I really would like that. Nov 12 22:00:12 It might be awkward and fat-fingerful Nov 12 22:00:19 but sometimes I just don't want to flip out the freaking keyboard. Nov 12 22:00:20 sfuentes: congrats Nov 12 22:00:29 vol, exactly Nov 12 22:00:29 especially when I just need to punch in a number or two Nov 12 22:00:48 if I want to press "5" I don't want to slide that open, find the teeny 5 key, and mispress 6 by accident Nov 12 22:01:03 vol, I think that along with accel based rotation would save lots of wear and tear on the phone itself, too Nov 12 22:01:08 yeah, seems silly to open the keyboard for 2 chars Nov 12 22:01:10 hello all, im still having no luck getting the edittext and buttons on the side to work nicely :| Nov 12 22:01:34 the edittext is set to fill_parent for width and the buttons end up on top of it Nov 12 22:01:38 also really would love screen gestures for shortcuts, etc. to work across all apps ;) Nov 12 22:01:49 how could I make it so it stops at the edges of the button? Nov 12 22:02:46 i've also wondered why the alt vs. shift for the number keys on the G1. what is that all about? why not have them shifted like a real keyboard instead of using alt? that trips me up a lot Nov 12 22:05:15 Chainfire, I wonder if it is a function of hardware? the jesus phone works reasonably well. sensitivity settings could be customized I presume Nov 12 22:05:56 vol, you suppose a soft keyboard like that would be a market place app or something google would write? Nov 12 22:06:01 nah its done in software :) Nov 12 22:06:15 both! Nov 12 22:06:23 google needs to make an api available to implement one nicely Nov 12 22:06:44 blau: it's on the roadmap. Nov 12 22:06:51 Chainfire, right - but the software could have sensitivity settings determining how forceful of a rotation would be required or something Nov 12 22:06:58 yay Nov 12 22:07:04 sure you could write that Nov 12 22:07:08 jbq, excellent - the api or the soft keyboard itself? Nov 12 22:07:11 it will STILL be annoying as hell, though Nov 12 22:07:22 tripps: both Nov 12 22:07:46 jbq> any way to get the <1024 port non-root access bumped up on the fix list? :) Nov 12 22:07:48 tripps: http://source.android.com/roadmap check the Q1 part Nov 12 22:08:05 Chainfire: that's not my decision :( Nov 12 22:08:24 who do I call/write/threaten? :) Nov 12 22:09:12 I don't know... Nov 12 22:09:16 jbq, cool roger thx Nov 12 22:09:25 too bad... Nov 12 22:09:51 who do ihave to hug to get a job at google new york Nov 12 22:10:02 hug? Nov 12 22:10:22 so we can be best friends Nov 12 22:10:28 and theyll put in a good word for me Nov 12 22:10:31 lol Nov 12 22:11:08 heh Nov 12 22:11:09 blau: You realize part of the interview process is seeing how many hits you can take with a baseball bat and continue coding, right? Nov 12 22:11:53 dont you need like a PhD at minimum to work at Google ? Nov 12 22:12:04 Chainfire: not anymore iirc Nov 12 22:12:19 its a minimum for research work Nov 12 22:12:19 cool. I got a swimming diploma Nov 12 22:12:41 * Chainfire doesnt like swimming, though Nov 12 22:14:04 yeah the research scientist jobs require a phd Nov 12 22:14:12 everything else doesnt seem too picky though Nov 12 22:14:17 meh I just want to code fun stuff Nov 12 22:14:17 and i have a masters Nov 12 22:14:39 i just dont have any published papers though Nov 12 22:14:57 i dropped out of CS Nov 12 22:15:10 hrm, does anyone know what adb devices showing 'offline' means? Seems I cannot connect to the device, although the adb devices entry disappears when it's not connected Nov 12 22:15:19 how about a bachelors? Nov 12 22:15:20 im gonna apply for here http://www.google.com/jobs/lunar_job.html Nov 12 22:15:24 Is that good enough for elgoog? Nov 12 22:15:26 seriously my teachers were complete noobs, hehe Nov 12 22:15:40 (half of them didnt know the subjects they were teaching :/) Nov 12 22:15:47 such as? Nov 12 22:15:59 vol, theres a few positions that seem ok with bachelors Nov 12 22:16:27 we'd have network folks trying to teach us logic and collections, but they didnt know anything about it so they just read the book to us... wtf Nov 12 22:16:38 ah Nov 12 22:16:41 what school? Nov 12 22:16:46 that sort of shit was all over the place Nov 12 22:16:48 i thought most of my professors were great Nov 12 22:16:52 devry? :P Nov 12 22:16:59 nah a dutch college Nov 12 22:17:02 esp compared to the non cs/se classes Nov 12 22:17:04 Fontys Nov 12 22:17:32 i tried picking it up again at another university, but by that time I was making too much bloody money selling software :D Nov 12 22:17:37 lol chain Nov 12 22:17:44 i still dont feel like im making enough Nov 12 22:18:02 well its never enough is it Nov 12 22:18:09 Rutgers had some fantastic professors, and some professors that were research professors so they had the TA teach the class Nov 12 22:18:17 so, I can kind of feel your pain Nov 12 22:18:23 but the good professors made it worth it :) Nov 12 22:18:29 i almost went to rutgers Nov 12 22:18:38 yeah the second university had great teachers though, i was just to bummed out to get really into it, and as I said I was already making a lot of cash Nov 12 22:18:40 the Computer Graphics professor was so good that the entire class got him a thank you card : ) Nov 12 22:18:49 I did study Astrophysics after that for the fun of it, though Nov 12 22:19:05 vol, cool Nov 12 22:19:06 haha nice Nov 12 22:19:16 most of the kids in my uni hated our professors Nov 12 22:19:28 and most of them sucked at cs and se Nov 12 22:19:47 the kids, not the professors Nov 12 22:19:52 there isn't much better in school than a good professor who makes material interesting, fun, and knows his shit Nov 12 22:20:00 yeah Nov 12 22:20:04 true that Nov 12 22:20:08 yup Nov 12 22:20:17 my HCI professor was the best Nov 12 22:20:21 thats what drew me to astrophysics... we got nobel prize winning teachers :) Nov 12 22:20:24 the graphics professor would actually hang out in the lab 6 hours before a big assignment was due to answer last minute questions Nov 12 22:22:10 still pisses me off though... if my first college had been good, i'd have a masters now :) Nov 12 22:23:33 time for some chow! laters. Nov 12 22:24:50 later Nov 12 22:27:09 sigh... job seaching while at work feels sleazy Nov 12 22:27:26 pretty Nov 12 22:27:41 luckily, IRC at work is fine ;-) Nov 12 22:27:58 heh Nov 12 22:28:34 lol Nov 12 22:28:42 i try to troll for jobs on irc while at work Nov 12 22:29:15 heh Nov 12 22:30:29 I think I am tired of the programming/software engineering career Nov 12 22:31:10 My wife keeps telling me I should become a shepherd in the greek mountains... and she's actually serious. Nov 12 22:31:38 well you wont have to shave every morning, so thats a plus Nov 12 22:31:59 I already don't shave every morning! Nov 12 22:32:04 I barely shave every month Nov 12 22:32:07 and the sheep... well nevermind Nov 12 22:32:24 * ttuttle shaves before interviews, and that's about it. Nov 12 22:36:17 google Nov 12 22:36:30 scroogle Nov 12 22:40:47 jbq, will the IMF/IME be the framework to support finger gestures on the touch screen as shortcuts, etc.? Nov 12 22:41:15 tripps: I don't know which IMEs are in the pipeline other that what's mentioned on the roadmap. Nov 12 22:47:41 jbq, cool. i would really like to see gestures as part of the way to navigate around apps and between apps Nov 12 22:48:04 i presume multitouch gestures would not be implemented due to jesus phone IP issues? Nov 12 22:48:37 (no comment) Nov 12 22:48:42 lol Nov 12 22:49:47 I know they're not in the platform guidelines, and I know that not all touch panels support it, but anything beyond that would be extrapolation from my part. Nov 12 22:49:56 of course i also presume that i could, given the api, create my own multi-touch gestures to do what I choose . . . . . Nov 12 22:50:28 and just look over my shoulder to make sure Jobs isn't running after me with attorneys in tow :) Nov 12 22:51:31 Well, I'm now confident that playing noises result in sufficient chassis vibration that the accelerometers register several M/s even if the bloody thing is just sitting on a bench. Nov 12 22:51:58 Zelig_, wow that sensitive? cool! Nov 12 22:52:27 Grumble, I think uncool. Nov 12 22:52:34 My saber app notices something has moved once, Nov 12 22:52:43 and then continues "swinging" ad infinitum. Nov 12 22:53:04 Need some kind of low-pass filter.. Nov 12 22:53:13 Zelig_, ah . . . so have to write some filter function of some sort Nov 12 22:53:17 So is there a way to use the "adb ppp" thing or is it just broken Nov 12 22:53:19 I don't care about accelerations at 100hz. Nov 12 22:53:33 and I don't think I have that visibility. Nov 12 22:53:41 I'm firing on ;onSensorChanged events. Nov 12 22:53:58 Zelig_, that would be cool if they did make that detail available Nov 12 22:54:02 hey all Nov 12 22:54:51 anyone in here use android on something other than a G1? Nov 12 22:54:53 I need to set the damn thing to making noises off in a corner for an hour or so, and collect stats on the accel rates it causes. Nov 12 22:55:11 Zelig_, you could use it for earthquake detection ;) Nov 12 22:55:16 plppth. Nov 12 22:55:29 O LOOK It's QUAKING here on this SAND SPIT we call Florida. Nov 12 22:55:41 famous for tectonic activity, Gainesville is. Nov 12 22:57:01 Anybody have opinions on the very most effieicnt way to get some update on the screen? Nov 12 22:57:38 Is the setText for some region just the best? Nov 12 22:58:53 unfortunatly I don't know enough about programming android to anwser that question Nov 12 23:01:35 isnt java harder than python Nov 12 23:01:41 marginally Nov 12 23:02:01 i can grasp python but android java is annoying me to learn it Nov 12 23:02:17 I really like java.....I was curious if anyone knew anything about Market and when it will be available for non G1 phones Nov 12 23:02:22 ionstorm: I personally find java a lot more logical. If you're used to C++ and such, it's pretty natural Nov 12 23:04:14 spammy: probably when another Android phone comes out :P Nov 12 23:04:14 well that sucks Nov 12 23:04:14 i've got another android phone Nov 12 23:04:14 im running android on my HTC touch Nov 12 23:04:15 I need to find better tutorials on coding for android Nov 12 23:04:15 in j2me a repaint/paint does not wipe the canvas.. Is there a similar method in the Android APIs to draw to the screen without clearing everything? Nov 12 23:04:15 the google docs suck to me, maybe cuz I never messed w/java Nov 12 23:04:15 I was just searching the API for a repaint() but couldn't find anyhting similar Nov 12 23:04:15 spammy: invalidate Nov 12 23:04:15 are you guys coding in Eclipse? Nov 12 23:04:15 yes, I'm using eclipse Nov 12 23:04:16 that is one wonderfull tool Nov 12 23:04:17 thesquib: invalidate has args for void and rectangle Nov 12 23:04:22 so you can specify what part of the screen you want to update Nov 12 23:04:33 nice Nov 12 23:04:54 eclipse rulesss Nov 12 23:05:01 vol: that requires "knowledge" of what needs redrawing.. Nov 12 23:05:13 just call invalidate() Nov 12 23:05:18 it does the entire view Nov 12 23:05:32 thesquib: as opposed to.... Nov 12 23:05:56 oh, you just want to draw directly over top of what's already there? Nov 12 23:06:29 Yup Nov 12 23:06:56 And if I wanted to clear it, then I might clear a rectangle (for example) by setting the color to white and drawing over it. Nov 12 23:06:58 hmmm, I don't know offhand. There might be something in the docs. Nov 12 23:07:24 cool thanks, I'll keep looking Nov 12 23:07:28 so nobody with a rooted phone can grab me the market.apk? :) Nov 12 23:08:01 well, the way it works as I recall is that onDraw gets called, and the canvas may or may not have a bounding rectangle (outside of which draws are ignored) Nov 12 23:08:13 so, you pretty much always want to pretend that you're drawing to a fresh screen Nov 12 23:15:15 i swear theres more phones with full qwerty than t9 now Nov 12 23:18:27 if you don't clear the screen in onDraw then calling invalidate() will not make things disappear Nov 12 23:18:28 i can type faster with t9 lol Nov 12 23:18:43 thesquib: its just like paint in J2ME Nov 12 23:18:47 been so fuqn used to t9 Nov 12 23:18:53 you override onDraw to do what you want Nov 12 23:20:15 *sigh* When is google going to enable logins from GAFYD on other google service, like picasa? Nov 12 23:20:48 It's awesome we can use it to log in to the G1, but then have to use a separate gmail login for everything else Nov 12 23:20:55 heh Nov 12 23:20:57 ya Nov 12 23:21:03 I wish they would just support openid Nov 12 23:21:10 you can create an account to log in to those other services Nov 12 23:21:16 it's just a different account Nov 12 23:21:21 right, that's the issue Nov 12 23:21:34 yeah Nov 12 23:22:39 It's not critical but it's very annoying Nov 12 23:22:53 and wasteful :/ Nov 12 23:23:11 but you can use the same email address for that I mean (not sure if you knew), even if it's a GAFYD email Nov 12 23:23:32 same email address for what? Nov 12 23:23:43 i can type over 40 wpm with my g1 Nov 12 23:24:10 I can't log in to picasaweb with the GAFYD login, or a number of the other google services. Nov 12 23:24:20 you can sign up for an account for picasa, etc, that uses an GAFYD email. There are two accounts created -- one owned by your domain admin, and one that's just keyed off any valid email address. Nov 12 23:25:13 yes, but when I use related services that link the email address, it will show the gmail, not the GAFYD address. Nov 12 23:25:13 click the "Create an account now" link below the sign in box, and create an account using your email address from the GAFYD domain. Nov 12 23:25:54 ah, I see, hmm hang on Nov 12 23:25:58 if you log out of the gmail account, it won't show them. but then you have two accounts on picasa, one with gmail and one with your gafyd account Nov 12 23:26:33 (btw, I have this problem too, I have an @google.com, an @android.com, my own domain, and a regular gmail account, it's really frustrating) Nov 12 23:29:37 I can imagine Nov 12 23:31:47 i want a google.com email address Nov 12 23:32:14 you have to hug someone for that too Nov 12 23:32:24 clicke: you want some hugs? Nov 12 23:32:26 * blau hugs clicke Nov 12 23:32:49 I need to be deloused! Nov 12 23:32:58 jt436 - thanks Nov 12 23:33:00 i dont delouse Nov 12 23:33:47 I'm finding it hard to drag icons to the left-side of the "desktop".. does anyone else notice this? Nov 12 23:34:18 phonetop? Nov 12 23:34:56 i have Nov 12 23:35:24 both sides Nov 12 23:35:40 its awkward Nov 12 23:35:47 yeah, seems like the left side is harder for me Nov 12 23:38:34 savid: yes Nov 12 23:39:37 speaking of which Nov 12 23:39:43 what are people doing for screen protection? Nov 12 23:39:51 hi everyone, can anyone remember how we clear the marketplace cache? Nov 12 23:40:12 ive just ordered a bodyguardz protector, will let you know what its like when it arrives Nov 12 23:40:32 spikebike, nothing. romainguy was correct, the screen is pretty resilient Nov 12 23:40:42 Shock protection is more of a concern Nov 12 23:41:08 heh Nov 12 23:41:21 I'm hard on devices, I definitely want screen protection Nov 12 23:41:30 if i do currenttime in millis divided by the number of millis in a day and drop the remainder Nov 12 23:41:33 out of the 9 guys at our office that have G1's, 4 have already killed them by dropping them from low heights (accidentally) even on to carpet Nov 12 23:41:39 ugh Nov 12 23:41:41 then multiple my number of millis in a day ill get the current day? Nov 12 23:41:42 damn dude Nov 12 23:41:52 a case seems almost impossible Nov 12 23:42:06 I have er, 6-7 friends with them Nov 12 23:42:09 none have died so far Nov 12 23:42:34 er 9 actually Nov 12 23:42:41 I wonder how many they have sold Nov 12 23:42:44 but the screens, they don't scratch easily. I'm wondering if the surface is minorly self healing (viscuous) that hairline scratches just reabsorb Nov 12 23:43:06 I use the sock religiously when it's not in active use Nov 12 23:43:11 I hope that would help Nov 12 23:43:15 I don't use it at all Nov 12 23:43:21 Although I do occasionally use it while riding my bike Nov 12 23:43:25 I took romainguy at his word and abuse it Nov 12 23:44:04 stuck it in my bag a few times with a bunch of crap, including my keys Nov 12 23:44:06 no scratches Nov 12 23:44:06 i lost my sock i think Nov 12 23:44:10 i love that socky thin Nov 12 23:44:53 the only scratches on it, came from the factory on the inside back cover, and from the scraping on the back of the screen from opening/closing Nov 12 23:45:00 I use a fanny pack, keep lots of shit in it, and bike around 10 miles a day with it on Nov 12 23:45:30 i haven't heard the word fanny pack in years Nov 12 23:45:32 If I had a choice for an iphone like device running android I'd probably switch.... just to be more durable Nov 12 23:45:54 er, man purse... whatever they are called Nov 12 23:46:40 lawl Nov 12 23:46:45 no keyboard? Nov 12 23:46:54 manpurses aren't the same as fannypacks Nov 12 23:47:32 I've been looking for a decent bag that's slim, but they all look like murses Nov 12 23:47:46 I'm just not that stylish I guess Nov 12 23:48:51 dunno, seems like iphone folks can type about as fast as I can Nov 12 23:48:54 (on the g1) Nov 12 23:49:25 pockets are basically unusable while biking, and I bike 4+ times a day Nov 12 23:49:36 (I don't usually drive) Nov 12 23:49:44 but some just done like the non-feel of a touch screen keyboard (myself included) Nov 12 23:50:16 ya Nov 12 23:50:27 I don't usually type a ton on the g1 Nov 12 23:51:19 ive tried typing on an iphone a few times (my sisters), and i couldnt get the hang of it Nov 12 23:51:41 yeah, I didn't get the iphone because of the lack of tactile comfort with the on-screen keyboard Nov 12 23:51:43 I wonder how many g1s will survive for 2-3 years Nov 12 23:51:55 love mibbit Nov 12 23:51:59 though I do need an onscreen kbd for verticle Nov 12 23:52:03 I'm kind of curious, how does google certify a phone as Android compliant? Nov 12 23:52:15 herriojr, you're assuming they even do Nov 12 23:52:18 u wont be using a g1 in 2 years Nov 12 23:52:29 ok. now back to this. is there a way or are there any plans to allow file attachments to email with G1? Nov 12 23:52:30 my last phone lasted for 6 Nov 12 23:52:33 i still need to get over to the tmob store and get my hands on one of those things, see how it feels and such Nov 12 23:52:36 and I have a daughter ;-) Nov 12 23:52:53 g1 feels like a fancy sidekick Nov 12 23:52:59 poohba it already works doesn't it? Nov 12 23:53:04 yeah, never handeled one of those either Nov 12 23:53:05 Poohba: it was reported here that the image-only limitation in the email clients was a T-Mobile requirement. So probably no, unless it's a 3rd party application Nov 12 23:53:08 spikebike: only for pictures Nov 12 23:53:12 i havent used a phone for more than a year since sidekick 2 Nov 12 23:53:32 poohba oh, er, check out one of the filebrowsers and see if they have a share button Nov 12 23:53:44 damn. they should have just used a filesize or filetype limitation. thats wack! Nov 12 23:53:50 herriojr, whoever wants to sell a device with Android on it, just gets the source code, and tailors it for their own device. The G1 is not googles device, it's an HTC device T-Mobile had tailored for Android. Nov 12 23:54:03 poohba er, there's an attach under menu Nov 12 23:54:07 So the G1 is "certified" by T-Mobile for their own purposes Nov 12 23:54:25 Google's just in the mix to get their platform going Nov 12 23:55:17 btw, this is the bag I tend to carry. cheap, but looks good http://tinyurl.com/6chfgh Nov 12 23:55:32 hi guys, I tried to upload an app to the android emulator and get INSTALL_PARSE_FAILED_NO_CERTIFICATES Nov 12 23:55:41 $130 = cheap? Nov 12 23:55:51 I thought that ant automagicaly gave me a debugging certificate? Nov 12 23:55:52 spikebike, for a mens leather shoulder bag, yes Nov 12 23:56:14 spikebike, I got it for $60 or $80 anyway, i forget which Nov 12 23:58:03 Anyone else have a contact added twice when adding from an SMS message? Nov 12 23:58:19 like, someone sent me a phone number, I held it down, added it was a contactand it showed up twice Nov 12 23:58:30 sure it wasn't already in your contacts? Nov 12 23:59:26 positive Nov 12 23:59:46 *added it as a contact Nov 12 23:59:50 I fail at multi tasking heh Nov 13 00:00:14 finally installing the modded rc30 since I got the update screen this morning Nov 13 00:00:15 languish: I'm just thinking, what is to stop android from becoming another j2me where the standards aren't followed Nov 13 00:00:53 I wonder if Google is going to get thousands of update requests from these modded rc30s, and if they'll do anything about it Nov 13 00:01:16 like, the version was changed (dunno why he did that...) so they should be able to tell? Nov 13 00:01:57 languish: currently, OEMs take jsr's and mutilate them....so you have to pretty much develop for each and every phone Nov 13 00:02:20 instead of just making a single app for all Nov 13 00:03:05 I don't entirely see how android will fix that, if new phones add new features Nov 13 00:03:26 having a common implementation goes a long way toward fixing fragmentation Nov 13 00:03:30 you'll eventually have programs that won't run on phones without certain hardware features Nov 13 00:03:39 indeed, but doesn't stop it Nov 13 00:03:41 a big part of the j2me mess is that j2me is just a spec, and everyone has their own implementation Nov 13 00:03:53 i dunno. i didn't change my version string Nov 13 00:04:31 Gary13579: It's really no harm to google to have user-rooted phones in the wild. The console bug was real and worth fixing, but as long as the modified code doesn't hurt anything, why would they bother? Nov 13 00:05:01 They obviously don't want us having root or they would have left telnet alone Nov 13 00:05:05 T-Mobile, on the other hand, might freak, because they're a phone company. But happily they don't seem to have direct control over the update process. Nov 13 00:05:08 The console bug was a severe bug that did need fixing. Nov 13 00:05:26 T-Mobile won't care as long as they don't receive support calls. Nov 13 00:05:33 not as severe as a telnetd with magical invisible setuid root Nov 13 00:05:47 The console bug was the root exploit. telnetd just happened to be the easiest way to exploit it. Nov 13 00:06:42 Wait, the bug existed because when you typed telnetd, it was passed onto the root shell? not because of some weird permissions? Nov 13 00:06:43 jmo: yes, but when new features start getting added, it will become just as much of a mess, unless there is some type of organization to certify it Nov 13 00:06:57 everything you typed was passed to the root shell Nov 13 00:07:09 I remember hearing that that bug disappeared after the phone was powered on for some reason Nov 13 00:07:15 Yes. There was a root shell running on the "console" device, which was listening to the keyboard. Nov 13 00:07:18 Ahh! I didn't make that connection. Terribly funny consequence in a way Nov 13 00:07:28 Yes, I'm aware of that, but I didn't know that's why telnetd was getting root. Nov 13 00:07:31 It does make sense though. Nov 13 00:07:33 I was confused at the lack of setuid / root telnetd... Nov 13 00:07:46 yeah i thought there was something screwy with the kernel Nov 13 00:07:50 Right, you type "telnetd" in a root shell and the resulting daemon runs as root.l; Nov 13 00:08:24 Quick question - I haven't been able to track down how Launcher and Phone are getting started on boot, They don't receive the system boot intent - but the launcher obviously starts, and Phone registers a handler with the phone subsystem to receive calls... Nov 13 00:08:44 do I name the update "update" or "update.zip" Nov 13 00:08:48 in init.rc, no? Nov 13 00:08:59 Gary13579: the latter Nov 13 00:09:01 "update.zip", and it lives in the root of your sdcard. Nov 13 00:09:15 Okay, the guide on xda-dev is wrong then, figured it was .zip though. Nov 13 00:09:27 Damn kids and their "hide known file extensions"... Nov 13 00:09:30 well some people can't handle the fact that windows hides extensions Nov 13 00:09:34 haha Nov 13 00:09:36 exactly. Nov 13 00:12:35 hmmm I dont see that any apps get launched in init.rc - would be weird if they did Nov 13 00:12:51 surely phone and launcher aren't hardcoded to launch somewhere? Nov 13 00:16:36 it appears to be impossible to undelete something in the mail client Nov 13 00:18:53 I was surprised when I looked at the IM source code. I can't believe they dont have an XMPP implementation Nov 13 00:19:03 just IMPS...for all of the im networks. Ewwww Nov 13 00:20:50 er Nov 13 00:20:53 Every time you send or receive an IM through IMPS, god kills a kitten. Nov 13 00:20:57 no XMPP? Nov 13 00:21:06 jmo: for example, I find there to be a problem with content observers: when listening for changes to a table, it doesn't give which row was modified/added/deleted...if I were to change that, content observers will not work on any other android os implementation Nov 13 00:21:14 why do they charge for AOL, MSN, and yahoo and not gtalk? Nov 13 00:21:22 I kinda assumed they used XMPP for gtalk Nov 13 00:21:29 they charge for them? Nov 13 00:21:31 thus the charge difference Nov 13 00:21:32 not that im aware of Nov 13 00:21:38 yeah, it costs an SMS Nov 13 00:21:44 That sounds iffy Nov 13 00:21:44 (cept gtalk) Nov 13 00:21:50 it's in the tmo docs/plans Nov 13 00:23:03 oh look at that Nov 13 00:23:27 you're right spikebike....devious Nov 13 00:23:34 :) my irc won't have that problem Nov 13 00:23:44 it doesn't exclude gtalk in the service description though Nov 13 00:23:51 I might have to experiment with that Nov 13 00:23:58 I know that had an xmpp imp at _some point_ right? Nov 13 00:24:27 geez...still kind find how launcher and phone get started...been grepping through all the sane places Nov 13 00:26:50 found out why i feel like shit... Dr says "really bad case of pneumonia, we should admit you" Nov 13 00:28:14 DarkriftX: you know, I've felt like shit ever since I got Mono, I've never had the energy I used to, and that was about 6-7 years ago Nov 13 00:28:38 ouch Nov 13 00:28:41 that sucks Nov 13 00:28:59 yeah, I used to run about 6mi everyday...can't really do that anymore Nov 13 00:29:31 pneumonia sucks, my little brother used to get it all the time Nov 13 00:33:08 hmmm Nov 13 00:33:21 not possible to restore app settings by untarring a backup of /data/data/org.whatever... Nov 13 00:33:49 not? Nov 13 00:33:54 not Nov 13 00:33:55 how can it tell? Nov 13 00:34:13 dunno. connectbot crashed Nov 13 00:35:21 any uk people here? Nov 13 00:48:09 hi anyone from the uk here? Nov 13 00:48:48 hrm, does anyone know what adb devices showing 'offline' means? Seems I cannot connect to the device, although the adb devices entry disappears when it's not connected Nov 13 00:51:06 tried adb kills-server and reconnecting? Nov 13 01:04:29 hmm Nov 13 01:04:49 that nylinda developer is selling "Android File Manager" on handango for $10 Nov 13 01:05:18 unless handango just took the app and started selling it Nov 13 01:05:24 * languish wonders Nov 13 01:05:33 ding Nov 13 01:05:42 well we are talking about handango Nov 13 01:06:26 handango likes to grab devs and start charging for their apps (they pay the author) Nov 13 01:06:31 the slumlords of mobile apps selling Nov 13 01:06:49 The other issue is nylinda including "Android" in the name of their app Nov 13 01:06:50 i had a friend that wrote a wm app and had it as a dl on his site and handango emailed him offering to sell it on their site, so he started charging Nov 13 01:07:01 lol Nov 13 01:07:15 not sure they can do much about that Nov 13 01:07:17 i was awakened last night to an ota update to rc30 Nov 13 01:07:18 o/ Nov 13 01:07:21 DarkriftX well that is not too uncommon Nov 13 01:07:28 all this time with rc19 Nov 13 01:07:38 but Handango doesnt treat developers very well AFAIK Nov 13 01:07:44 ouch elad sucks to be you Nov 13 01:07:57 ? Nov 13 01:08:02 elad, did it autoinstall itself, or did you accept the install? Nov 13 01:08:07 I've had some talk with a rather large 'small systems' software maker and he was bitching about them quite a bit Nov 13 01:08:08 i had to accept Nov 13 01:08:08 i think they are turning authors who would give apps away or sell them cheap into expensive sellers Nov 13 01:08:19 elad, you didn't "have" to accept :) Nov 13 01:08:23 but yeah Nov 13 01:08:27 i hope you didnt like root elad Nov 13 01:08:45 well, I mean I hit ok.. I dont need root Nov 13 01:08:53 then your all good :) Nov 13 01:08:53 then you're fine :) Nov 13 01:08:54 mwah they may offer it Nov 13 01:09:02 they do take 40% IIRC Nov 13 01:09:21 i think free authors should make donate buttons more available Nov 13 01:09:22 I wish I hadn't updated to RC30. :[ Nov 13 01:09:27 most ppl would rather donate then pay Nov 13 01:09:45 HAHAHAHAHA Nov 13 01:09:47 DarkriftX, sadly, not true. Nov 13 01:10:04 you would rather be forced to pay then offered a donate button? Nov 13 01:10:09 or do you mean most ppl dont Nov 13 01:10:17 Most people would either rather not pay at all, or pay.. because it gives them a sense that they're paying someone to be responsible if they have a problem with the app. Nov 13 01:10:39 but the average joe, isn't much for donating Nov 13 01:10:55 the average dev issn't either Nov 13 01:10:57 hmm lets see... I had > 100k free downloads and made about $200 ... let me tell you my sales are not 100k in number yet, but I made a LOT more selling it :) Nov 13 01:11:00 I've not heard many success stories on donations Nov 13 01:11:10 I was pondering trying a hybrid Nov 13 01:11:16 $5 at the store Nov 13 01:11:18 and I'm actually one of those people that does donate a lot to many projects myself Nov 13 01:11:24 and $0 if you download/compile yourself Nov 13 01:11:34 or maybe even $1 Nov 13 01:11:39 (at the store) Nov 13 01:11:44 so opensource, but not open binaries Nov 13 01:11:47 point(s) taken Nov 13 01:11:49 much like RHEL Nov 13 01:11:55 Chainfire, I donate as well. I have a donate swell coming soon, when I finish moving my ebay crap. Nov 13 01:12:06 people only donate when you whine about it or have a sad story Nov 13 01:12:19 But then, I don't donate large amounts. usually $10 incriments. Nov 13 01:12:25 So I can spread to more projects Nov 13 01:12:33 rather than whining or fabricating like a lot of other people seem to do, I just sell it and cut the crap. Nov 13 01:12:49 For me, it's like buying them a drink. Nov 13 01:12:49 but everybody who has ever donated to me gets free copies :) Nov 13 01:13:11 mwah languish I'm sure I've donated over $1500 in 2008 alone to various projects Nov 13 01:13:12 heh Nov 13 01:13:31 im too poor to donate like that Nov 13 01:13:35 couple dollars here and there Nov 13 01:13:40 I donate to maybe 15 projects a year.. between $150 to $300 total Nov 13 01:13:45 but then, I'm cheap Nov 13 01:14:03 it also depends heavily on the target audience Nov 13 01:14:47 for a game server cheat detection package I used to make back in 2005, I would get donations into $800/month, but in total had only like 5000 users... Nov 13 01:15:02 connectbot team and michaelnovakjr will have a few $ coming to them for their efforts and community participation around here Nov 13 01:15:34 haven't decided what other android apps I want to support yet Nov 13 01:15:57 i havent even used connectbot, but i can already tell its an app id pay a few $'s for Nov 13 01:16:02 nod Nov 13 01:16:05 exactly Nov 13 01:16:08 considering i never buy software, thats saying a lot Nov 13 01:16:13 the mobile 'hacker' community is dead friggin cheap though. only people who get donations are the ROM chefs, who really arent doing anything special except taking other peoples work, with a few exceptions here and there (like no2chem, elite team, etc) Nov 13 01:16:17 i normally find free alts Nov 13 01:16:25 hence linux, better and free lol Nov 13 01:16:34 heh Nov 13 01:17:20 Well, if there was a central place to donate to the combined efforts of JesusFreke and others working on the hacked RC's .. I'd donate there too Nov 13 01:17:21 once jlime project gets more advanced, im donating to them Nov 13 01:17:33 if they accepted revolution money id donate now Nov 13 01:18:38 I also think at some point, a collection by someone community-trusted.. to buy the google devs that participate in here without being assholes.. a gift.. Nov 13 01:18:51 i was thinking (it hurts to do that sometimes) but if the ads on my site ever start making anything, i could have contests for users who help the most to win free software (paid for by the ads). only thing is I dont know how to use ads and probably will never make more than $5/mo Nov 13 01:19:09 ads only work if you got major visitor count Nov 13 01:19:14 granted, they get paid to do their thing, but a few do it well Nov 13 01:19:15 yeah Nov 13 01:19:20 i only get 500-1k/day Nov 13 01:19:20 there are exceptions :| Nov 13 01:19:24 ive made a couple of $k on ads in the past years Nov 13 01:19:31 but I've moved away from them completely Nov 13 01:19:36 ive made $6 in the last 30 days lol Nov 13 01:19:51 i dont like em either, just have them for paying the $9/mo hosting lol Nov 13 01:19:56 hehe Nov 13 01:19:58 someone told me i should try it, so i did Nov 13 01:20:10 yeah it just looks sad Nov 13 01:20:10 i ditched adsense because the ads were annoying Nov 13 01:20:22 at least now they are relative to the site Nov 13 01:20:53 yarr Nov 13 01:20:55 I'm amused by the G1 sites that have ads for other devices popping up Nov 13 01:21:10 or the tmo sites that have ads for sprint/att..etc Nov 13 01:21:23 lol Nov 13 01:21:24 myeah thing with google ads is they should make an option to ban competitor ads Nov 13 01:21:32 yep Nov 13 01:21:36 you can do this manually on a per-ad bases, of course Nov 13 01:21:37 but that's what pays the bills Nov 13 01:21:48 i picked ads that offer g1 accessories Nov 13 01:22:01 memory, cases (zagg), or chargers etc Nov 13 01:22:03 i dont get ads anyways Nov 13 01:22:10 * Chainfire has never clicked an ad in his life Nov 13 01:22:15 most g1 accessories being advertised as such, tend not to be :| Nov 13 01:22:24 then again, I also wouldn't buy my own softwares :/ Nov 13 01:22:24 yeah Nov 13 01:22:33 most g1 accessories are generic htc stuff Nov 13 01:22:35 Chainfire, lol Nov 13 01:22:58 * DarkriftX does an OS update, afk 3 mins Nov 13 01:23:14 thats when you gotta realise... just because YOU work and do things a certain way, doesn't mean anybody else does... Nov 13 01:23:19 For my G1, if I'm not throwing it into my bag, or a pocket, I have this belt pouch thing someone gave my they bought at Gap or some shit Nov 13 01:23:38 fits in it nicely, and upsidedown I can have the headphone wires routed out Nov 13 01:24:02 cause if the world was like me, there'd be no prisons, Android would have root access, there'd be no ads, etc. But hey if you can't beat 'em, join 'em! Nov 13 01:24:21 languish, pics plz, we want to see your stylishness Nov 13 01:24:23 cause if the world was like me, there'd be no prisons <- just kill -9 criminals Nov 13 01:24:35 BHSPitMonkey, it's not stylish at all Nov 13 01:24:36 lol Nov 13 01:24:43 no there'd be no criminals... Nov 13 01:24:44 my leather cases for my old phones were stylish Nov 13 01:24:55 this is just a kind of canvas pouch crap Nov 13 01:25:01 but yeah, if you want pics, hang on Nov 13 01:25:05 heh, /me has flashbacks of "Nick, your company's annoying computer guy!" Nov 13 01:25:12 re belt clip. Nov 13 01:25:21 heh Nov 13 01:25:25 pretty much Nov 13 01:25:31 it's conveinent, not stylish Nov 13 01:25:37 http://banshee-project.org/download/archives/1.4.1/ - support for android:D Nov 13 01:25:38 *convenient Nov 13 01:25:45 tretle_, yay! Nov 13 01:25:46 BHSPitMonkey: how's your app coming? Nov 13 01:26:08 unix_remote, as if I've had time to even start Nov 13 01:26:19 school's been kicking my butt Nov 13 01:26:28 only do stylish when I have to meet with execs or uotight types. Like visiting japanese clients Nov 13 01:26:42 japanese clients are my favorites Nov 13 01:27:31 Chainfire, depends. I agree mostly, but some are pains in the ass. Nov 13 01:27:34 japanese thin clients Nov 13 01:27:49 they beat US clients any day in my experience Nov 13 01:28:11 Had a few Japanese guys chilling with me, wife, friends.. over ahalloween Nov 13 01:28:13 had a blast Nov 13 01:28:19 cool Nov 13 01:30:12 argh /me gotta go update the payment system... ugh. Nov 13 01:30:19 :/ Nov 13 01:30:30 I hate webdevving. Nov 13 01:30:56 I love complaining, though! Nov 13 01:31:14 :) Nov 13 01:31:56 :O Square Enix is going to publish Supreme Commander 2... my day is good... /me reads article and dodges some more work stuff Nov 13 01:32:21 My generic case :p http://www.bodyglove.com/products_detail.php?product_id=9180 Nov 13 01:32:40 cool thing is the touch works through the case Nov 13 01:32:48 what does this mean: Failure [-11] Nov 13 01:32:56 something failed :) Nov 13 01:32:59 lol Nov 13 01:33:02 just got rc30 update Nov 13 01:33:02 yes Nov 13 01:33:54 dct2000: congrats? Nov 13 01:34:13 dont think so Nov 13 01:34:48 someone check this page for me. someone added a page and someone else made a comment about how there might be a typo on it but I do not know: http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php?title=HOWTO:_Unpack%2C_Edit%2C_and_Re-Pack_Boot_Images Nov 13 01:35:01 people dont want the rc30 update? Nov 13 01:35:02 do you guys know how to download iskoot for g1? Nov 13 01:35:14 Dameon, not the real one if they have root Nov 13 01:35:16 it takes root away Nov 13 01:35:32 there is modified versions that fix this though Nov 13 01:36:32 does rc30 contain just a delta Id think? Nov 13 01:36:43 might be beneficial to throw a setuid copy of sh somewhere Nov 13 01:36:47 if thats the case Nov 13 01:37:20 anyone else notice spam email coming in from their market apps? Nov 13 01:37:35 this was the cheesy belt pouch I was talking about http://i36.tinypic.com/2saf23s.jpg http://i37.tinypic.com/24ex3xj.jpg Nov 13 01:38:32 ok, now I get an error that the package already exists Nov 13 01:38:44 so, I assume this means an upload was successful Nov 13 01:38:49 in fact Nov 13 01:39:04 heres an idea...has anyone tried putting a setuid sh inside of say the data directory Nov 13 01:39:11 followed by the rc30 update? Nov 13 01:40:12 Dameon, afaik, the full update wipes everything Nov 13 01:40:38 though, I don't know much. So :) Nov 13 01:40:54 try it Nov 13 01:41:07 because that's how the root bug was found Nov 13 01:41:17 just trying it ;0 Nov 13 01:41:25 well I would think the data dir would be left intact Nov 13 01:41:25 does anybody know of a jabber client Nov 13 01:41:40 its killin me that nobody's written one yet Nov 13 01:41:43 im going to stick a setuid sh in some places that *shouldnt* be wiped Nov 13 01:41:48 yeah its criminal they went all-IMPS Nov 13 01:41:54 i know they had an xmpp api... Nov 13 01:42:24 i looked at the source for the IM app and theres all sorts of plugin classes Nov 13 01:42:33 havent seen anybody else speak of it tho Nov 13 01:43:28 hmm Nov 13 01:43:45 hmmm Nov 13 01:43:53 there doesn't appear to be a cp command...interesting ;) Nov 13 01:43:58 This is driving me up the wall Nov 13 01:43:58 thought they were using busybox Nov 13 01:44:17 DarkriftX I asked jesusfreke to check it Nov 13 01:44:35 Ive been trying to upload the HelloAndroid example, and all I get is Failure [-11] or Error package already exists Nov 13 01:44:37 Dameon they arent... they are using toolbox.. you can install busybox, though. Nov 13 01:45:08 hmmm it has dd Nov 13 01:45:11 i might just use that ;) Nov 13 01:45:32 arrgghh.. does anyone know if adb will connect before the phone is setup with a google account? Nov 13 01:46:15 it will Nov 13 01:46:33 but the preference is probably not turned on in your case :) Nov 13 01:47:12 there is a setting that you have to enable adb? Nov 13 01:47:19 yes Nov 13 01:48:14 I just got the phones, and want to get in and prevent ota updates before going on the network - any ideas on how to accomplish that? Nov 13 01:48:33 Zigner: Do you need adb to do that? Nov 13 01:48:53 I cant seem to get into the phone without connecting to my google account Nov 13 01:50:16 menu key just gives "APN settings", and screen shows the setup application which i cant complete without network connection. Nov 13 01:50:24 am I missing something? Nov 13 01:51:59 Zigner: why don't you just go through the setup? Nov 13 01:52:02 OTAs are not automatic Nov 13 01:52:04 you have to accept them Nov 13 01:52:18 ohh.. ok, thats good to know.. :-) Nov 13 01:52:39 then i'll turn on my wifi and setup my account. Nov 13 01:52:48 hi, why might this happen?: Sorry, Activity Home (in process android.process.acore) is not responding. Force close or wait Nov 13 01:53:19 orci: the device is just being slow Nov 13 01:53:50 awww how unfortunate Nov 13 01:54:08 I can run my setuid sh in /data/data/something Nov 13 01:54:14 from the adb shell - but it doesn't get root Nov 13 01:55:37 romainguy_, I was reading that it might happen due to synch problems and I have sync problem all the time with my gmail contact, there is ! everytime Nov 13 01:57:14 hmmm..."logo.rle" Nov 13 01:57:45 dameon: you're trying to use setuid to get sh to run as root? Nov 13 01:58:02 Yes - I have a root shell via telnetd started with console bug Nov 13 01:58:23 I copied sh to /data/data/org.connectbot, made it suid, and ran it from adb shell Nov 13 01:58:41 i read on some wiki that rc30 removes setuid on everything in /system Nov 13 01:58:46 well, every update Nov 13 01:58:52 carrafaj: That's not true. Nov 13 01:58:53 as part of the update removes setuid Nov 13 01:59:00 carrafaj: Some things in /system keep setuid. Nov 13 01:59:05 shell user doesnt have read permission for the /data/data dirs but specifying the full path runs it (according to ps). But no root Nov 13 01:59:10 right, but specified by the update process Nov 13 01:59:12 carrafaj: It erases all of /system and replaces it with the correct files. Nov 13 01:59:19 yeah but this is in /data Nov 13 01:59:21 okay, that sounds along the lines of what i was saying Nov 13 01:59:27 gotcha, so you're copying it to /data Nov 13 01:59:48 which is mounted rw and will likely get passed up by the update Nov 13 01:59:50 orci, I had problems with my contacts sync due to a user image associated with the contact Nov 13 01:59:55 m33p m33p Nov 13 02:00:18 my g1 arrives tomorrow, too bad i wont be home and I have to get them to hold it at the UPS center so I can get it friday morning :P Nov 13 02:00:19 orci, when I removed the image logged in from pc, in contacts management for gmail.. the sync issue stopped Nov 13 02:00:34 DJTachyon, reroute it to work Nov 13 02:00:37 call ups Nov 13 02:01:07 they said that since my work doesnt have a resolvable UPS address, UPS wont do it Nov 13 02:01:13 ah Nov 13 02:01:15 lawl Nov 13 02:01:17 thats why i couldnt get it shipped there in the first place Nov 13 02:01:25 nod, silly ups Nov 13 02:01:25 and it caused duplicate order cancellations Nov 13 02:01:50 well .. it wierd .. the company i work for doesn't have a street address Nov 13 02:01:52 just a PO Box Nov 13 02:01:59 is your work address also a big black space in google maps? Nov 13 02:02:09 :D Nov 13 02:02:09 does anyone know how Launcher and Phone get started? They dont receive the boot broadcast... Nov 13 02:02:17 lol .. close but not quite .. Nov 13 02:02:36 somewhere I used to work, is :| Nov 13 02:02:54 i did move the marker for the google maps hit with the address of the PO Box of the company to the actual location Nov 13 02:03:04 helped out a lot of people visiting as I recall :P Nov 13 02:03:10 haha Nov 13 02:04:43 strange, very strange - why would a setuid binary owned by root keep the uid of who started it Nov 13 02:05:06 kRutOn what needs to be done to keep watchdog from killing connectbot? Nov 13 02:05:38 Dameon: context? Nov 13 02:06:35 I have a copy of sh in /data/data somewhere with setuid on. I can run it from adb shell, and it runs, but it continues to run as shell user Nov 13 02:08:26 i think the suid from file perms is not full. check the src of su in baseutils to see what it does exactly Nov 13 02:08:46 su doesn't seem to be present Nov 13 02:09:05 fromgnu.org Nov 13 02:09:16 from gnu.org Nov 13 02:10:27 i better not get any crap from T-Mobile when I return this G1 Nov 13 02:10:29 setuid bit for file perm is handled by the kernel, and i believe there are suid binaries included on the system that work Nov 13 02:10:36 I want to see a prompt credit to my account Nov 13 02:10:36 image for a contact? Nov 13 02:10:49 languish, image for a contact? Nov 13 02:11:06 DJTachyon: what happened? Nov 13 02:11:32 Is there an event listener for recieving messages(SMS, Email, and IM) or any good way to check if a New message is recieved? Nov 13 02:11:46 oh well the G1 I got on the day after release, the accelerometer/compass was defective Nov 13 02:11:58 I have tried getting them to cross ship me a phone for 3 weeks Nov 13 02:12:03 it finally shipped today Nov 13 02:12:19 well all i know is whatever su does -really- makes you root as opposed to suid sh Nov 13 02:12:34 ahh Nov 13 02:13:10 Maxpower57: yes, but i dunno where Nov 13 02:13:47 I'd assume there was, but I can't find it either Nov 13 02:13:57 DJTachyon: good luck on not getting rc30 Nov 13 02:14:55 fnordg1 - thats a good point Nov 13 02:15:21 what are all you people doing that requires root? Nov 13 02:15:39 Dameon: the debian bootstrap wont work right with suid sh for example. i ported su and it worked Nov 13 02:15:57 taaz: nethack! Nov 13 02:16:26 maybe i should use adb to push over su or something and see if I can get something going Nov 13 02:16:35 taaz: also i restored my sms logs with root Nov 13 02:17:15 has anyone played with JNI? is it disabled on the retail handset? Nov 13 02:17:27 it is not disabled Nov 13 02:17:29 just not supported Nov 13 02:17:30 I was thinking using an xpdf library or somesuch would be handy... ;) Nov 13 02:18:07 besides, i always wantea linux box in my pcket that couldget inet anywhere Nov 13 02:18:26 jni? Nov 13 02:19:00 java native interface Nov 13 02:19:06 what would be cool is framebuffer access Nov 13 02:19:20 why? Nov 13 02:19:32 hm i think its different bytecode Nov 13 02:19:49 spikebike: x! Nov 13 02:20:04 heh Nov 13 02:20:15 I'm not that excited about x on a 320x480 screen Nov 13 02:20:29 yeah Nov 13 02:20:36 I'm not excited about x period :) Nov 13 02:20:41 especially on a small device :p Nov 13 02:20:49 I however wouldn't mind vnc server for the g1 Nov 13 02:20:55 i'd like to run x apps tho Nov 13 02:21:02 like? Nov 13 02:21:11 rdesktop Nov 13 02:21:14 vnc Nov 13 02:21:18 xephem Nov 13 02:21:38 there is a vnc client I thought Nov 13 02:21:48 where? Nov 13 02:21:52 yay, banshee has support for android Nov 13 02:21:57 i was hoping for that Nov 13 02:22:22 banshee? Nov 13 02:22:38 music widget Nov 13 02:22:45 ahh Nov 13 02:23:08 waiting for a non crappy player Nov 13 02:23:15 its a little more than a widget i would say Nov 13 02:23:31 oh and mplayeer would be cool Nov 13 02:23:51 is there a way to terminate an application w/o using a shell? Nov 13 02:24:01 nope Nov 13 02:24:16 sfuentes, how do you terminate using the shell? Nov 13 02:24:24 kill -9 pid Nov 13 02:24:30 sfuentes: Why do you want to terminate an application? Nov 13 02:24:44 hmm sdk apps can do socket() yeh? Nov 13 02:25:22 ttutle: i guess in android it doesn't matter how many processes are running right? Nov 13 02:25:34 sfuentes: ...why do you want to kill them? Nov 13 02:25:41 sfuentes: not really Nov 13 02:25:43 sfuentes: It shouldn't matter. The system will kill them if necessary. Nov 13 02:25:53 thats because watchdg is a nazi Nov 13 02:25:56 so it does matter :) Nov 13 02:26:13 i'm use to terminate applications i'm not using on my pc :) Nov 13 02:26:15 Er, it does not matter to a user, or even a developer, except that you must be able to recover from being killed at certain times. Nov 13 02:26:20 err terminating Nov 13 02:26:26 sfuentes: Don't do that on an Android device. It's unnecessary. Nov 13 02:26:33 Chainfire: no it doesn't because if a process is here it doesn't mean the application is actually running Nov 13 02:27:18 ... and an application could be ready to receive notifications (e.g. system broadcasts) even if it doesn't have a process. Nov 13 02:27:30 that too Nov 13 02:27:37 (or it could expose a provider) Nov 13 02:27:45 theres no way to make sure an app keeps running ? Nov 13 02:28:03 anyone want perl binaey? no modules Nov 13 02:28:04 Chainfire: no. When the kernel needs memory, things will get killed. Nov 13 02:28:17 good old viking killer :) Nov 13 02:28:25 binary even Nov 13 02:28:26 randomly, or is there a sort of order to what gets killed ? Nov 13 02:28:44 Chainfire: it's not random Nov 13 02:28:46 Chainfire: Yes, it kills less-needed things. Nov 13 02:29:15 myeah but how does it decide what is less-needed Nov 13 02:29:20 If your app really needs to stick around in memory, you need a Service. Nov 13 02:29:36 Chainfire: the least used app for instance Nov 13 02:29:41 Chainfire: the activity manager tells it when the order of priorities change. Nov 13 02:30:00 Chainfire / sfuentes: It'd be nice if (if applicable) you explained what you were trying to do, instead of asking how to do something. Nov 13 02:30:01 if there's a process that's not currently holding any service or activity, it goes first. Nov 13 02:30:19 then come the processes with no services and no visible activities. Nov 13 02:30:27 when the processes with no visible activities. Nov 13 02:30:31 s/when/then/ Nov 13 02:30:31 jbq meant: then the processes with no visible activities. Nov 13 02:30:33 ttuttle for the sake of arguement, my app absolutely positively has to do ++x until the end of eternity. Nov 13 02:30:36 so is there anyway of conserving battery besides turning off the monitor/lcd? Nov 13 02:30:40 then anything is good. Nov 13 02:30:48 Chainfire: you can't guarantee that with Android. Nov 13 02:30:52 Chainfire: That's a dumb app. Nov 13 02:31:14 In that case anyway, "infinity" is about 4 hours of battery life ;-) Nov 13 02:31:29 i have a charger. Nov 13 02:31:31 :) Nov 13 02:31:47 ttuttle> so is half the stuff around... what is your point ? Nov 13 02:31:48 Chainfire: we're talking about a *phone* btw :) Nov 13 02:31:53 no Nov 13 02:31:55 i really want my battery to last longer ... but i still want to use my phone too :) Nov 13 02:31:59 _you_ are talking about a phone Nov 13 02:32:18 All that aside, once there isn't enough memory to keep all the services around, things tend to not get pretty, and the system will kill services at random, and restart them later when conditions improve. Nov 13 02:32:37 being able to call people is probably the least exciting thing 'phones' these days do. If i want that, I'll buy a friggin nokia 3310 for $5 Nov 13 02:32:55 cuz alarmclock is 10meg RSS Nov 13 02:32:59 Chainfire: It actually matters what you're trying to do. Nov 13 02:33:11 Chainfire: it's still a device with limited battery, limited memory, etc. Nov 13 02:33:11 it would be nice if there was a bigger battery i could pop in Nov 13 02:33:15 fnordg1: That's probably mostly shared libraries that are already loaded. Nov 13 02:33:20 10 meg. wtf. cron is 500k Nov 13 02:33:21 the system was designed with this in mind Nov 13 02:33:24 hm Nov 13 02:33:28 it's not meant to act as a Linux server Nov 13 02:33:34 so how often does it happen ? Nov 13 02:33:35 fnordg1: You can run "procrank" in the shell to see. Look under the "USS" column to get the actual memory used. Nov 13 02:33:40 mebbie Nov 13 02:33:46 is this something that happens a lot or is it a rare occurance? Nov 13 02:33:46 kk Nov 13 02:33:55 Chainfire: if you have the browser open in front with quite a few windows open, the services die every few seconds. Nov 13 02:33:59 with normal app use i mean, calendar here, browser there Nov 13 02:34:24 one service + heavy browser is enough for the service to get killed. Nov 13 02:34:37 nope not installed Nov 13 02:34:42 hmm Nov 13 02:35:00 Yaaahh, newly arrived G1's have rc28 Nov 13 02:35:01 interesting Nov 13 02:35:21 Chainfire: similarly, activities are restarted when you flip open the screen Nov 13 02:35:35 A question for the Google staff here: When Google developers add a new feature to the API, do they use the public SDK and qemu-based emulator to test it, or is there some other in-house development simulator/emulator that is used ? Nov 13 02:35:42 whatever happened to the cpu governors for android Nov 13 02:35:56 that would help with my battery issue Nov 13 02:35:57 i would guess there is that that the 'front' app doesn't get killed ? Nov 13 02:36:00 rwhitby: we use the same things you guys have in the SDK Nov 13 02:36:11 rwhitby: we don't use the SDK itself, but it's the same code and same tools Nov 13 02:36:20 Chainfire: it's the last one to go, but if it gets too big it gets killed too. Nov 13 02:36:22 romainguy_: so you go straight from the qemu simulator to hardware? Nov 13 02:36:30 rwhitby: yes Nov 13 02:36:42 rwhitby: but it depends on the developers, I don't use the emulator anymore for instance Nov 13 02:36:48 but many still do Nov 13 02:36:53 romainguy_: what do you use? Nov 13 02:36:55 romainguy_: any plans for a secure su infuture releases? Nov 13 02:37:07 fnordg1: not that I know of Nov 13 02:37:14 rwhitby: the G1 Nov 13 02:37:16 myeah my G1 seems to have gotten lost in the mail :/// else I would know these things already. working on an emulator is 'balls'. Nov 13 02:37:27 romainguy_: ah, ok, you go straight to hardware now. Nov 13 02:37:45 fnordg1: in the android world, the equivalent of su is sharedUserId. Nov 13 02:37:46 Chainfire: how is it "balls"? Nov 13 02:37:54 romainguy_: general opinion fromm mgmt is lockdown=good? Nov 13 02:38:09 fnordg1: it's not up to me to comment on this Nov 13 02:38:17 romainguy_> theres always some small yet subtle difference that bites you in the ass, in my experience Nov 13 02:38:28 I personally think that you guys make a big deal out of not much, but that's my personal opinion Nov 13 02:38:34 :p Nov 13 02:38:38 fnordg1: you need to separate Google from T-Mobile, and the Android platform from an instance of Android on an OHA member's handset. Nov 13 02:38:44 Chainfire: like I said several times, the touch UI was created entirely on the emulator Nov 13 02:38:49 jkhbn Nov 13 02:38:50 k Nov 13 02:39:02 Chainfire: like most apps and almost the entire UI framework Nov 13 02:39:09 so I kinda disagree with your statement :) Nov 13 02:39:11 * jbq uses the emulator as much as possible, the device only if it's really necessary. Nov 13 02:39:14 the emulator is good enough Nov 13 02:39:28 rwhitby: hmm i thought google pushed ota Nov 13 02:39:33 (we did use a simulator before M3 though) Nov 13 02:39:38 romainguy_ didn't know that, good to know though. I'm talking about the emulators I've used so far... haven't tried that much on the android emulator as I've had bad experience with the MS ones :) perhaps yours is better. Nov 13 02:39:57 Chainfire: we tried to make it as close to real hardware as possible :) Nov 13 02:40:03 that and I expected the actual device to arrive like 10 days ago... Nov 13 02:40:10 fnordg1: I would expect that OTA updates for a specific carrier's device would be done either by, or on behalf of, that carrier. Nov 13 02:40:11 Chainfire: there are some things, obviously, that will suck, like GPS, WiFi, etc. Nov 13 02:40:23 but for everything else, the emulator is really good Nov 13 02:40:25 ah, so we get to the interesting stuff :) Nov 13 02:40:34 Chainfire: i've used the emu and the g1 and damn they're pretty similar Nov 13 02:40:35 the emulator lets you simulate GPS for instance Nov 13 02:40:43 or the orientation sensors Nov 13 02:40:50 * jbq wishes that the emulator did emulate those better... "it's just software" Nov 13 02:40:51 but it's not as easy as with a real device Nov 13 02:41:09 romainguy_: How about when people are developing things like graphics acceleration drivers for new handsets. What would they use to debug those? Nov 13 02:41:18 the initial booting up is really slow though Nov 13 02:41:18 (you could argue that the GPS is actually annoying to work with on the G1, since you're likely to code inside a building :)) Nov 13 02:41:18 btw, would any of you guys knows if that TI 1251 actually supports being an access point ? Nov 13 02:41:29 haha true that Nov 13 02:41:35 rwhitby: mebbie. noone is talking :p Nov 13 02:41:36 if you're developing drivers, you'd better have the hardware available, or you're really in deep trouble. Nov 13 02:41:41 rwhitby: a dev board for whatever handset you are talking about :) Nov 13 02:42:00 sfuentes: yes because all the apks are dexoptimized Nov 13 02:42:05 it's a one time cost Nov 13 02:42:07 and Nov 13 02:42:20 if that makes you feel better, I pay this cost on my device every time I make a change to the framework Nov 13 02:42:25 which is dozen of times every day Nov 13 02:42:25 i skimmed to the driver source of the wifi card but couldn't find it... anyone happen to know that tidbit? :) Nov 13 02:42:27 :)) Nov 13 02:42:46 romainguy_: understood, but do they use the SDK Eclipse etc stuff to drive the hardware, or do they have some lower-level software development system for testing linux drivers in an Android framework? Nov 13 02:42:55 romainguy_: i can appreciate that Nov 13 02:43:04 rwhitby: I have no idea Nov 13 02:43:07 rwhitby: ask swetland Nov 13 02:43:17 Chainfire: in general, drivers aren't expected to be part of the platform (a bit by definition) Nov 13 02:43:21 romainguy_, if you would just get it right the first time, you wouldn't have that problem, duh. Nov 13 02:43:24 romainguy_: thx, I'll ask swetland next time I see him here. Nov 13 02:43:34 KNY: next time I'll try :) Nov 13 02:43:54 jbq> yah I know but as the drivers are in the android source, I thought perhaps one of you might know if the chip (not necessarily the driver) is able to do it. Nov 13 02:44:08 romainguy_: does the qemu emulator emulate any of the graphics acceleration? Nov 13 02:44:09 somebody must've had some experience with those drivers :) Nov 13 02:44:25 romainguy_: are u allowed to comment on whether ur personal g1 is mod rc30? :) Nov 13 02:44:27 rwhitby: no, it uses a (clever) software implementation of OpenGL Nov 13 02:44:37 Chainfire: I'm not sure that anyone in the android saw the source to those drivers. Nov 13 02:44:46 no way to simulate boot/rescue/misc with the emu eh? Nov 13 02:45:00 ah ok, they come straight from qualcomm or ti then Nov 13 02:45:04 sfuentes: I have unlocked devices and access to engineering builds, so I do not need a hacked RC30 :) Nov 13 02:45:19 but for what it's worth, my personal device runs unmodified retail software Nov 13 02:45:30 anyone else notice spam email coming in from their market apps? Nov 13 02:45:41 michaelnovakjr: nope Nov 13 02:45:43 romainguy_: so the app binaries that you run on the emulator know that they're running on the emulator, and call the software OpenGL implementation instead of a graphics accelerator? Nov 13 02:45:56 the apps know nothing about this Nov 13 02:46:10 does anybody know what the deal with tesseract is Nov 13 02:46:12 it's the SurfaceFlinger that turns on the hardware acceleration automatically if possible Nov 13 02:46:17 i saw it got included in the repo Nov 13 02:46:23 you can actually force a deivce to run on software GL by removing a .so file Nov 13 02:46:40 michaelnovakjr__, nope Nov 13 02:47:25 romainguy_: would it be the same surfaceflinger code automatically routing to different hardware accelerators on different handsets in the future, or will there be different surfaceflinger builds depending on which hardware target android is built for? Nov 13 02:47:47 SurfaceFlinger merely relies on whatever GL driver the handset has Nov 13 02:47:55 so it's not its job to "route" to different hardware Nov 13 02:48:20 (actually, if you can give me a quick pointer to where in the source this stuff is done I can read it up myself to save using your precious time on these questions) Nov 13 02:48:47 ah, so it just uses whatever .so is installed on the handset Nov 13 02:49:29 SurfaceFlinger and the software GL impl should be in the platform/base git tree Nov 13 02:50:48 the software GL uses the really cool PixelFlinger lib that our graphics guy wrote Nov 13 02:51:09 it outputs ARM code at runtime to accelerate GL Nov 13 02:51:21 errr.. how so? Nov 13 02:51:22 dynamic translation hey? nice. Nov 13 02:51:37 yeah, it has some cool optimizations Nov 13 02:51:40 it's wickedly sweet (that's a technical term) Nov 13 02:51:57 is that O/S too ? Nov 13 02:52:01 romainguy_: so is that under platform/frameworks/base.git? Nov 13 02:52:03 Chainfire: yes Nov 13 02:52:07 nice Nov 13 02:52:12 rwhitby: I think so Nov 13 02:52:39 fcking bootloader @!# Nov 13 02:52:41 romainguy_: suggestion: there should be a way to backup and restore stuff like app configs and sms logs Nov 13 02:52:49 one thing I am wondering though... does Google actually make money on Android somewhere or is it just for idealistic reasons Nov 13 02:53:11 Everything at Google eventually comes down to advertising space, right? Nov 13 02:53:25 wheres the advertising on the G1 ? Nov 13 02:53:27 Chainfire: we don't make money from Android itself Nov 13 02:53:29 Make something cool, make it popular, put advertising on it. Nov 13 02:53:40 i'm sure htc or tmo apreciate... Nov 13 02:53:41 but if you use the Browser and click ads... :) Nov 13 02:53:54 i make it a point to not click ads Nov 13 02:53:54 fnordg1: high quality patches are welcome :)) Nov 13 02:53:56 :) Nov 13 02:53:58 Chainfire: Android hasn't got to the monetisation stage of the Android project yet :-) Nov 13 02:54:23 Chainfire: well that's an easy way to donate Android :) Nov 13 02:54:24 Android is a public service ppl Nov 13 02:54:43 hehe Google gets enough from the ads I _pay_ for Nov 13 02:54:45 gah, traffic is so bad my bus takes an alternate route (that's never a good sign) Nov 13 02:55:01 Chainfire: how is your ADSL line giving us money? Nov 13 02:55:13 jbq: took me 2 horus and 30 minutes to go home last night Nov 13 02:55:23 argh Nov 13 02:55:23 sorry Nov 13 02:55:24 ads Nov 13 02:55:24 i usually take the route of buying a subscription to sites I read, instead of ads Nov 13 02:55:25 not adsl Nov 13 02:55:28 yah Nov 13 02:55:29 * romainguy_ slaps himself Nov 13 02:55:31 romainguy_: yeah? pity perl is not on by default :p Nov 13 02:55:44 they work pretty decent, im glad _other_people_ click 'em :P Nov 13 02:55:46 Chainfire: me too Nov 13 02:56:03 call me crazy, but i wouldn't mind paying for gmail Nov 13 02:56:25 now you just stop storing my search data, and I may even stop completely distrusting Google. Nov 13 02:56:31 there's nothing crazy with paying for good software Nov 13 02:56:50 Chainfire: oh you're one of those :) Nov 13 02:56:53 tell that to ppcwarez and pda4x lol Nov 13 02:57:19 at your service, good sir Nov 13 02:57:19 romainguy_: so why doesn't google offer gmail premium? :) Nov 13 02:57:27 or is that called Google Apps Nov 13 02:57:30 ? Nov 13 02:57:36 sfuentes: google apps for your domain Nov 13 02:57:37 you know what happened with AOL and storing search data... :P Nov 13 02:57:40 sfuentes: don't ask me :) I work on Android, I know nothing about those web stuff and everyting :)) Nov 13 02:57:52 is it just me who is having problems downloading from the marketplace this morning? Nov 13 02:57:59 Chainfire: if you don't like having your data stored why not use something other than Google :) Nov 13 02:58:12 cause I support Mozilla Nov 13 02:58:20 michaelnovakjr_: that is blasphemy! Nov 13 02:58:30 i didn't say i agree with what he said Nov 13 02:58:39 hehe j/k Nov 13 02:58:40 and the others will still do the same thing :) Nov 13 02:58:57 :) plus this is an android channel not everything google channel :) Nov 13 02:59:07 an evil google would be bad. real bad. Nov 13 02:59:32 haha Nov 13 02:59:34 yeah, that's why we're not evil. Nov 13 02:59:41 don't be evil Nov 13 02:59:46 that is very relative jbq Nov 13 02:59:55 everything is relative **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Nov 13 02:59:57 2008