**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 20 02:59:56 2008
Nov 20 03:00:16 <Leeds> you mean there are things more important than android?
Nov 20 03:00:33 <DJTachyon> woooo
Nov 20 03:00:42 <DJTachyon> got some really nice video encoded
Nov 20 03:00:54 <DJTachyon> this looks a lot better than befor
Nov 20 03:01:23 <DJTachyon> Using the Super vidoe encoder
Nov 20 03:01:23 <Leeds> DJTachyon: what spec?
Nov 20 03:02:34 <DJTachyon> Video: H.264/AVC, 480x320, 3:2, 24fps, 480kbps .. Audio: AAC LC, 44.1kHz, Stereo, 96kbps
Nov 20 03:03:29 <DJTachyon> it looks really good
Nov 20 03:03:47 * Leeds makes a note
Nov 20 03:03:56 <DJTachyon> The Super Encoder has been the only one that has muxed it correctly without much hassle
Nov 20 03:04:25 <DJTachyon> http://www.erightsoft.info/GetFile.php?SUPERsetup.exe
Nov 20 03:05:02 <DJTachyon> err
Nov 20 03:05:20 <DJTachyon> i hate the Super download site
Nov 20 03:05:22 <DJTachyon> it makes it so hard to find
Nov 20 03:05:22 <DJTachyon> http://www.erightsoft.net/SUPER.html
Nov 20 03:05:22 <DJTachyon> good luck :P
Nov 20 03:05:47 <Leeds> doubt that works on Linux?
Nov 20 03:06:04 <DJTachyon> doubt it .. just get a good H.264/AVC encoder
Nov 20 03:06:34 <Leeds> seems to largely be ffmpeg underneath anyway
Nov 20 03:07:07 <DJTachyon> yep
Nov 20 03:07:39 <Leeds> eh, don't have a G1 at the moment, and need to do day-job stuff... will look at it later :-)
Nov 20 03:07:47 <DJTachyon> :P
Nov 20 03:08:54 <Leeds> would be nice to get a stable shell script which I can just throw downloaded avis, mkvs, etc. into and get a G1-targeted video out the other side
Nov 20 03:12:11 <obra> Has an ebook reader other than the still-somewhat-not-yet-working-at-all FBReaderJ 0.21 popped up?
Nov 20 03:14:13 <Leeds> FBReaderJ does work with a little care
Nov 20 03:14:39 <obra> Leeds: I've had a lot of trouble generating books it doesn't segfault on
Nov 20 03:14:42 <skbohra1> Leeds: Hi
Nov 20 03:15:06 <Leeds> what are you generating them with?
Nov 20 03:15:06 <Leeds> skbohra1: morning
Nov 20 03:15:06 <obra> I've traced down the first couple failures but not had time to work through patches
Nov 20 03:15:06 <skbohra1> Leeds: morning
Nov 20 03:15:06 <obra> Leeds: I've been using Stanza
Nov 20 03:15:54 <obra> (http://www.lexcycle.com/)
Nov 20 03:15:54 <Leeds> I don't know that software...
Nov 20 03:16:13 <Leeds> what format are you trying to generate them in?
Nov 20 03:16:13 <obra> Tearing apart the generated books, they _looked_ reasonably correct, but ebook formats are far from my specialty ;)
Nov 20 03:17:06 <obra> .epub
Nov 20 03:17:40 <wastrel> obra: i will love you forever if you get fbreaderj working
Nov 20 03:18:01 <Leeds> it seemed to work vaguely okay to me if I used unpacked oeb
Nov 20 03:18:02 <obra> wastrel: I have my free-time more than eaten up with the little bit of work on K-9 I get to do.
Nov 20 03:18:11 <wastrel> i don't like .epub format
Nov 20 03:18:11 <wastrel> it's yucky and i have no good tools for generating .epub content.
Nov 20 03:18:28 <Leeds> fbreader (and fbreaderj) is developed in private, isn't it?
Nov 20 03:18:37 <wastrel> source is available
Nov 20 03:18:37 <wastrel> i don't know their development practices
Nov 20 03:18:54 <Leeds> I'm not aware of any mailing list/forum, bug tracker, source repo, etc.
Nov 20 03:19:53 <jasta> hmm
Nov 20 03:19:53 <wastrel> well the download page suggests joining the freshmeat list for ML
Nov 20 03:19:53 <jasta> how do i setup my g1 with a new google account?
Nov 20 03:20:02 <wastrel> source tarball is available
Nov 20 03:20:03 <wastrel> bug tracker is available i forget what it uses
Nov 20 03:20:04 <Leeds> and note http://www.fbreader.org/docs/contributions.php
Nov 20 03:20:40 <Leeds> jasta: you factory reset, officially - although someone suggested there was a way to do it by rerunning the setup wizard
Nov 20 03:21:18 <Leeds> "all patches you send to us should be allowed to be re-distributed under both GPL and a proprietary license"
Nov 20 03:21:18 <wastrel> http://www.fbreader.org/support.php   bug tracker
Nov 20 03:21:19 <wastrel> yeah that's gross
Nov 20 03:21:24 <wastrel> so fork but ffs need ebooks pls
Nov 20 03:21:24 <wastrel> also offline html browser
Nov 20 03:22:13 <Leeds> yeah, removing file:// support from the browser is pretty odd
Nov 20 03:37:01 <jasta> michaelnovakjr_: so you have to have two accounts with google if you want foo@bar.com as well as googles other services?
Nov 20 03:37:51 <jasta> maybe i should just get a forwarding service :)
Nov 20 03:39:24 <KNY> interesting, the browser doesn't like saving google chart images
Nov 20 03:39:42 <KNY> it always says "Download Unsuccessful"
Nov 20 03:45:47 <Leeds> it says download unsuccessful about a lot of things...
Nov 20 03:49:00 <plusminus_> I've never searched for, but are ads allowed in Android-apps ?
Nov 20 03:49:01 <ryebrye_> hmm irsii is cool... but how do you change windows?
Nov 20 03:52:52 <Leeds> plusminus_: there's no way to stop them
Nov 20 03:53:11 <ryebrye_> Leeds, you get your phone back yet?
Nov 20 03:53:16 <Leeds> essentially, *anything* is allowed in Android apps... there are limits on apps made available through the market, but you don't have to distribute your apps through the market if you don't want to, or if it doesn't fit your business model
Nov 20 03:53:33 <Leeds> RyeBrye: nah, they've only had it 23 hours or so... I'll call them (or get my local-speaking girlfriend to call them :) ) this evening, then I *hope* to get it back tomorrow
Nov 20 03:53:34 <ryebrye_> ok
Nov 20 03:54:11 <Leeds> in the meantime, probably good to go without it for a couple of days so I can get some real work done!
Nov 20 03:54:35 * ryebrye_ should brick his phone to increase his productivity too :/
Nov 20 03:56:01 <plusminus_> Leeds: are you sure on that we are allowed to put ads to our apps?
Nov 20 03:56:09 <Leeds> plusminus_: did you read what I just wrote?
Nov 20 03:57:24 <Leeds> there are rules on what you can and cannot do if you want to distribute your app in the marketplace
Nov 20 03:57:41 <Leeds> there are essentially no rules if you distribute your app yourself, or through some other third party
Nov 20 03:57:41 <plusminus_> yes and I asked whether you are sure on that ;)
Nov 20 03:58:16 <ryebrye_> plusminus_: which app? andnav?
Nov 20 03:58:16 <Leeds> if I wasn't sure, I'd have qualified my answer
Nov 20 03:58:24 <plusminus_> yes
Nov 20 03:58:24 <plusminus_> I'm considering it
Nov 20 03:58:43 <plusminus_> Leeds: ok thx
Nov 20 03:58:43 * ryebrye_ wonders which he would rather have... $ vers or ad vers...
Nov 20 03:58:43 <Leeds> I am not a lawyer, do not work for Google, HTC or T-mobile, etc. etc.
Nov 20 03:58:59 <ryebrye_> you could always do 2 vers
Nov 20 03:59:13 <ryebrye_> free and "pro"
Nov 20 04:01:31 <ryebrye_> Leeds, you do much hacking on emedded stuff before?
Nov 20 04:01:40 <Leeds> yes and no...
Nov 20 04:01:56 <ryebrye_> Leeds: any disassm experience or anything?
Nov 20 04:02:13 <Leeds> I played with ipaq Linux for years
Nov 20 04:02:13 <Leeds> nah
Nov 20 04:04:57 <ryebrye_> where is htc based?
Nov 20 04:04:58 <Leeds> taiwan
Nov 20 04:05:08 <DJTachyon> wow newegg doesnt have 16gb microsdhc?
Nov 20 04:08:36 <spikebike> nah
Nov 20 04:08:36 <spikebike> they are pretty limited in availability so far
Nov 20 04:08:44 <spikebike> they have a nice 8GB for $30
Nov 20 04:08:45 <DJTachyon> hmmm buy.com has SanDisk Ultra II 16GB MicroSDHC for $50 w/ Free Shipping
Nov 20 04:09:19 <ryebrye_> Imagine how many apps you could install on a 16 GB card!
Nov 20 04:09:19 <ryebrye_> oh... wait... ;)
Nov 20 04:09:27 <wastrel> you can't install apps on a card
Nov 20 04:10:01 <ryebrye_> yeah, it was a setup wastrel :)
Nov 20 04:10:03 * andyross dumped a 9G music collection on it though.  That counts for something.
Nov 20 04:10:04 <wastrel> i don't listen to music
Nov 20 04:10:56 <Leeds> then you are missing out on a lot of human experience...
Nov 20 04:11:13 <jasta> hehe, 9G?
Nov 20 04:11:21 <jasta> oh brother :)
Nov 20 04:11:42 <KNY> hey can you guys do me a favor? I uploaded a new version of my app and it disappeared from the Market (for me, anyway)
Nov 20 04:11:43 <wastrel> what app
Nov 20 04:12:00 <KNY> mind seeing if you can find "Mileage"? It's under finance
Nov 20 04:12:08 <andyross> Only "MileageLedger Demo"
Nov 20 04:12:13 <wastrel> i see it
Nov 20 04:12:13 <wastrel> version 1.6.0
Nov 20 04:12:13 <KNY> wastrel, that's it
Nov 20 04:12:14 <KNY> I wonder why it disappeared for andyross and I
Nov 20 04:13:29 <wastrel> do you have it installed?
Nov 20 04:13:29 <andyross> The market does seem a bit mysterious sometimes...
Nov 20 04:13:48 <wastrel> i don't
Nov 20 04:13:49 * andyross is quite certain he doesn't have it installed.
Nov 20 04:14:23 <offby1> andyross: buy low, sell high.
Nov 20 04:14:23 * offby1 ducks
Nov 20 04:15:37 <KNY> wasabi, I uninstalled my dev copy, installed the Market version (1.5.0), uploaded the upgrade, updated through OI Update, then got version 1.4.1 (??) and it was gone from the market
Nov 20 04:15:55 <KNY> so I'm befuddled
Nov 20 04:22:34 <KNY> there we go, it seems to be back now. Thanks, guys
Nov 20 04:38:58 <ryebrye_> So, just out of curiosity - what are the differences between late-model pre-production engineering devices and the retail ones?
Nov 20 04:39:48 <ryebrye_> Just the bootloader being enabled still? (fastboot... etc)?
Nov 20 04:42:01 <pox101> I can't get my G1 to sign in for the 1st time
Nov 20 04:42:20 <pox101> is there any way to bypass the google sign in?
Nov 20 04:42:44 <mmattice> no
Nov 20 04:42:53 <Leeds> pox101: not really, no
Nov 20 04:43:36 <mmattice> put a working tmo sim in and do it, then put yours back in, or just call customer service to have them attempt to activate your internets
Nov 20 04:43:47 <pox101> I got my phone in the mail yesterday and it's been saying that the google servers are down
Nov 20 04:44:02 <mmattice> then call customer service
Nov 20 04:44:08 <Leeds> is it getting online?
Nov 20 04:44:08 <offby1> well, that sucks :-|
Nov 20 04:44:08 <skbohra1> google servers down?
Nov 20 04:44:08 <pox101> The t-mobile support is telling me the service is just down, and to wait it out
Nov 20 04:44:26 <ryebrye_> pox101 - try safe mode
Nov 20 04:44:27 <mmattice> why didn't you start with that?
Nov 20 04:44:42 <pox101> "there is a problem communicating with the google servers."
Nov 20 04:44:43 <offby1> I just assume t-mobile support are lying
Nov 20 04:44:43 <offby1> or idiots.
Nov 20 04:44:43 <ryebrye_> pox101 - or try searching for it. there is some stuff I saw on it
Nov 20 04:45:00 <ryebrye_> Tmobile tech support for android is really good
Nov 20 04:45:16 <spikebike> pox101: where are you?
Nov 20 04:45:17 <pox101> "This could be a temporaryproblem or your SIM card may not be provisioned for data services. If it continues, call Customer Care."
Nov 20 04:45:19 <pox101> Riverton, Wyoming 82501
Nov 20 04:45:29 <pox101> we roam on union wireless
Nov 20 04:46:13 <ryebrye_> And they are open really late
Nov 20 04:46:13 <spikebike> ah, so a decent edge signal?
Nov 20 04:46:14 <pox101> They say that should be fine as long as we have edge
Nov 20 04:46:15 <spikebike> and you got the $25 dataplan with your phone?
Nov 20 04:46:15 <pox101> I have 3 bars
Nov 20 04:46:23 <pox101> and the little e
Nov 20 04:46:48 <offby1> wow, that's a little town
Nov 20 04:47:07 <spikebike> I had a friend that it didn't work 5 times
Nov 20 04:47:09 <spikebike> he was outside of redding ca
Nov 20 04:47:09 <pox101> The egde speed in wyoming is kind of slow 34k to 128k on a good day
Nov 20 04:47:09 <spikebike> he went upstairs to a windwo and it worked
Nov 20 04:47:43 <offby1> right on Highway 26, which I know because it goes to Portland, OR
Nov 20 04:47:43 <spikebike> window
Nov 20 04:47:43 <ryebrye_> Mine came pre-provisioned with some radom account
Nov 20 04:47:52 <spikebike> ryebrye_: weird
Nov 20 04:48:00 <offby1> ryebrye_: cool!
Nov 20 04:48:17 <ryebrye_> yeah, it was new - bought online
Nov 20 04:48:17 * offby1 imagines RyeBrye_ calling China and charging it to some random person
Nov 20 04:48:37 <ryebrye_> I emailed that person whose account it was set up with, but haven't gotten a response
Nov 20 04:48:37 <Leeds> offby1: I don't think ryebrye_ has ever called me
Nov 20 04:48:46 <ryebrye_> I suspect it was a throw-away account
Nov 20 04:49:26 <offby1> Leeds: you're probably not random enough.
Nov 20 04:49:26 <offby1> few of us are
Nov 20 04:49:44 <ryebrye_> Leeds - you ever get your hands on cool cheap knock off stuff there?
Nov 20 04:49:44 <pox101> like a demo sim for the store
Nov 20 04:50:02 <Leeds> there's masses of it
Nov 20 04:50:02 <Leeds> offby1: but I *am* in China
Nov 20 04:50:02 <offby1> pfft
Nov 20 04:50:04 <offby1> necessary but not sufficient
Nov 20 04:50:21 <pox101> any way to turn on the wi-fi and use that to sign in to google?
Nov 20 04:50:30 <Leeds> ryebrye_: some of the crap just over the border in 'real' China is amazing... people trying to sell 320GB USB sticks - and they can prove they are real by plugging them into a PC and showing it come up as 320GB
Nov 20 04:50:46 <Leeds> except that they've fiddled the controller on the stick to report that, while there's a minimal (or zero) amount of actual storage - if you try to use it, you just get errors
Nov 20 04:51:10 <ryebrye_> leeds - that is funny
Nov 20 04:51:10 <spikebike> heh
Nov 20 04:51:36 <spikebike> for a good while monitors were advertising resolutions significantly larger than their dot mask
Nov 20 04:51:51 <spikebike> I found that really amusing
Nov 20 04:51:51 <Leeds> lots of fake iphones, of course... had a guy try to sell me a sciphone last week, the guys who are pushing their 'G2'
Nov 20 04:52:05 <spikebike> heh
Nov 20 04:52:11 <spikebike> the engrish on the g2 was kinda amusing
Nov 20 04:52:29 <ryebrye_> Leeds: how about clothes and stuff... like the north face stuff or ArcTeryx stuff?
Nov 20 04:53:31 <Leeds> haven't really looked for clothes...
Nov 20 04:53:36 <Leeds> things are less cheap over there, since the CNY has gained about 15% over the HKD this year
Nov 20 04:53:38 <ryebrye_> interesting
Nov 20 04:53:53 <ryebrye_> Is hong kong behind the great firewall?
Nov 20 04:54:28 <Leeds> well, HKD is pegged to USD at 7.75-7.85 (and it's been pushing that 7.75 *very* hard in the past few weeks), so it's about CNY/USD really
Nov 20 04:54:43 <Leeds> no - but there have been one or two noises recently about the possibility of it happening
Nov 20 04:58:44 <Leeds> it's really interesting over there, and it's a bit scary how things could go if there's a hard landing
Nov 20 05:04:25 <unix_infidel> well you guys finance a lot of our debt :-)
Nov 20 05:05:35 <unix_infidel> HK is the financial capital of the south east. it's where all dual sino citizens invest.
Nov 20 05:08:15 <unix_infidel> oh wow, so the blackberry storm has a 3.5mm jack...iiiinteresting.
Nov 20 05:08:21 <Gary|tp> how do I get adb/G1 working with ubuntu?
Nov 20 05:08:38 <Gary|tp> After setting up the 50-android.rules file and restarting, lsusb shows nothing, as does adb
Nov 20 05:09:59 <Leeds> sure
Nov 20 05:10:28 <Leeds> Gary|tp: "adb devices" doesn't show anything?  did you enable USB debugging on the device?  is there any difference if you run the adb command as root?
Nov 20 05:11:04 <spikebike> unix_infidel is the storm another device with almost identical internals to the g1?
Nov 20 05:11:06 <Gary|tp> http://pastebin.com/m73887712
Nov 20 05:11:06 <spikebike> like the tro pro
Nov 20 05:11:06 <spikebike> treo
Nov 20 05:11:06 <unix_infidel> spikebike: it's a blackberry.
Nov 20 05:11:06 <Gary|tp> @leeds
Nov 20 05:12:20 <spikebike> er, right?
Nov 20 05:12:20 <Leeds> Gary|tp: and the other two questions?
Nov 20 05:12:20 <Gary|tp> Running as root does nothing, debug mode is on
Nov 20 05:12:54 <Gary|tp> I'm not that stupid :P
Nov 20 05:12:54 <spikebike> that means that it doesn't have a 7201a?
Nov 20 05:12:54 <Leeds> some people are
Nov 20 05:13:27 <Leeds> are you plugged into a hug?
Nov 20 05:13:27 <Leeds> er, hub? :-)
Nov 20 05:14:04 <andyross> Try a different cable?
Nov 20 05:14:39 <Gary|tp> Hmm, hard to say. It's a notebook that's docked into a base.
Nov 20 05:14:56 <unix_infidel> spikebike: but yea, internals are pretty different.
Nov 20 05:15:00 <Leeds> does the notebook have any built-in ports?  if so, try them
Nov 20 05:15:09 <Gary|tp> Plugging it directly into the PC does show up on lsusb, weird
Nov 20 05:15:25 <Gary|tp> and adb works
Nov 20 05:15:25 <spikebike> the treo pro seems like a g1 clone
Nov 20 05:15:34 <wastrel> treo pro you say?
Nov 20 05:15:34 <wastrel> that's winmo
Nov 20 05:15:34 <spikebike> cept for the keyboard under the display
Nov 20 05:15:34 <Gary|tp> Oh well, just stick to this for now. thanks :)
Nov 20 05:16:23 <wastrel> also it came out before the g1
Nov 20 05:16:32 <spikebike> it was pretty close
Nov 20 05:16:51 <wastrel> it has a todo/organizer app
Nov 20 05:16:51 <wastrel> unlike android :p
Nov 20 05:16:51 <spikebike> not sure if anyone has ported android, seems like it should be one of the easier ones
Nov 20 05:16:52 <Leeds> I've already started saving the money for a Palm Android device
Nov 20 05:16:54 <skbohra1> +1
Nov 20 05:16:55 <Leeds> not hacked - released/supported out of the box... it seems to be such a no-brainer
Nov 20 05:16:55 <andyross> Has palm announced an android phone?
Nov 20 05:16:55 <wastrel> no they're working on their own linux os
Nov 20 05:16:55 <Leeds> andyross: not that I know of
Nov 20 05:16:57 <wastrel> supposedly to be announced q1 09 last i heard
Nov 20 05:17:09 <skbohra1> i will go with freerunner + android!
Nov 20 05:17:15 <Leeds> and it seems to be a no-brainer to fold whatever they've got into Android
Nov 20 05:17:27 <Leeds> let's face it, they gave up having their own platform years ago when PalmOS 6 failed
Nov 20 05:17:48 <spikebike> ew, freerunner
Nov 20 05:18:22 <spikebike> seems like a doomed project
Nov 20 05:18:32 <spikebike> I get optimistic then they announce some giant screw up
Nov 20 05:18:34 <spikebike> repeat.
Nov 20 05:19:19 <wastrel> android's not a success yet
Nov 20 05:19:30 <wastrel> granted, moreso than openmoko
Nov 20 05:19:39 <spikebike> ya
Nov 20 05:20:04 <spikebike> I crashed 3 different freerunners at linux world
Nov 20 05:20:12 <spikebike> running 3 different distributions no less
Nov 20 05:22:27 <Leeds> I saw prototype hardware running the Access Linux Platform (one of the two Linux-based PalmOS successors) almost 2 years ago
Nov 20 05:24:08 <spikebike> they screws up the fcc filing so no quad band
Nov 20 05:24:09 <spikebike> designed the gui (at least for awhile) around a stylus, but no stylus holder
Nov 20 05:24:11 <spikebike> then they took the tiny freerunner devel community and split it around 4 different platforms
Nov 20 05:24:11 <spikebike> oh, yeah and ditched their primary development platform what 3 months ago?
Nov 20 05:26:28 <wastrel> it's impressive
Nov 20 05:29:29 <spikebike> it's pretty dated hardware... O
Nov 20 05:29:30 <spikebike> I'd love it if the g1 upgraded to it's LCD though
Nov 20 05:40:50 * geist smiles
Nov 20 05:49:43 <TreyB> geist: ping
Nov 20 05:50:00 <jbq> hey TreyB, isn't it starting to be late where you are?
Nov 20 05:50:00 <TreyB> Not in Taipei :-)
Nov 20 05:50:01 <jbq> lol, good point.
Nov 20 05:50:01 <geist> yeah, i ended up not going
Nov 20 05:50:38 <TreyB> So much for going out to dinner with you tonight.
Nov 20 05:51:49 <geist> yeah, got cancelled. will be in shenzhen around 12/3 though
Nov 20 05:52:26 <TreyB> I hope not to return anytime soon.
Nov 20 05:52:52 <DarkriftX> plusminus_: i think you would make a lot more money charging a very small price for the app than you would putting ads in it. and I am sure ppl would be willing to pay if its cheap
Nov 20 05:52:52 <TreyB> I liked it well enough, but 3 weeks from home by ones self sort of sucks.
Nov 20 06:19:10 <irig> Hi all how to playback the video file in the android emulator
Nov 20 06:19:22 <irig> There is only one music player in tht ?
Nov 20 06:19:28 <irig> How to play a 3gp file
Nov 20 06:46:20 <Neverender> irig: it doesnt come with a video player
Nov 20 06:49:26 <_Tmm> SOS : after i built the code . i  run the command : emulator -system system.img -data userdata.img -ramdisk ramdisk.img ,,but i met the error : SDL init failure, reason is: No available video device
Nov 20 06:49:42 <_Tmm> any body can help me ?
Nov 20 06:50:51 <Leeds> stupid questions: are you trying to run the emulator as a different user from the one you're logged in as - e.g. logged in as user, running as root?
Nov 20 07:33:53 <irig> Tmm chk if you have created SDcard or not ?
Nov 20 08:05:03 <irig> how to play video files on emulator ?
Nov 20 08:05:34 <Leeds> using a video player?
Nov 20 08:05:59 <irig> but there is no video player ?
Nov 20 08:06:30 <Leeds> not built-in, no
Nov 20 08:06:31 <irig> whr can i find it in emulator ?
Nov 20 08:06:54 <irig> it shows only music player
Nov 20 08:07:00 <Leeds> there isn't one
Nov 20 08:07:01 <irig> Leeds can you tell me about this ?
Nov 20 08:07:06 <Leeds> sure I can
Nov 20 08:07:08 <irig> ok
Nov 20 08:07:21 <Leeds> there isn't a video player included in the android platform, therefore there isn't one in the emulator unless you add it
Nov 20 08:07:44 <irig> is there any changes need to be done in the source code of player ?
Nov 20 08:07:53 <irig> ok how to add the video player ?
Nov 20 08:07:54 <Leeds> find one and install it using adb?
Nov 20 08:08:22 <Leeds> I don't know where to find one, apart from the market
Nov 20 08:10:44 <irig> adb command can you tell ?
Nov 20 08:12:10 <Leeds> just run adb and it'll give you its options
Nov 20 08:12:10 <irig> ok
Nov 20 08:26:11 <tauno_>  oh, great.. we'll get some more devices here.. multiplayer mario simulator, here I come!
Nov 20 08:26:34 <dcordes> tauno_ what devices?
Nov 20 08:26:57 <dcordes> use gpe-snes :)
Nov 20 08:30:11 <tauno_> dcordes, G1
Nov 20 08:30:19 <tauno_> gpe-snes?
Nov 20 08:41:23 <dcordes> tauno_ gpe-snes9x I think. used to play snes with it on the zaurus
Nov 20 08:41:50 <Leeds> and here's the biggest problem with Android
Nov 20 08:42:07 <dcordes> Leeds what's that?
Nov 20 08:42:43 <Leeds> any existing Linux software, written in anything but Java, is going to be well-nigh unportable to Android
Nov 20 08:43:09 <Leeds> Java software should be portable with a rewrite of the UI layer... but 'native' code will need to be largely rewritten
Nov 20 08:44:06 <dcordes> yes the big downside. you don't have the big diversity of choices most people like so much about 'normal' linux distros
Nov 20 08:44:22 <xsdg> Leeds: most existing linux programs aren't designed to run on a device with limited memory, and that's running on battery power
Nov 20 08:44:24 <xsdg> Leeds: for instance, most desktop applications have no problem churning away on the CPU for a bit
Nov 20 08:44:37 <dcordes> z
Nov 20 08:45:14 <Leeds> xsdg: there's a lot of older code out there which would fit well in a mobile device's footprint - maybe with a little adaption
Nov 20 08:45:15 <Leeds> does the ARM used in Android/G1 have hardware floating-point?
Nov 20 08:45:15 <dcordes> xsdg doesn't mean you must exclude diversty with an approach in creating a resoucef riendly system
Nov 20 08:46:00 <geist> Leeds: no
Nov 20 08:46:25 <xsdg> dcordes: no, it doesn't.  But it does mean that we choose to optimize for our constraints, rather than to ignore those constraints in order to allow existing apps to run poorly
Nov 20 08:46:44 <dcordes> xsdg also, new generation devices like the g1 or the other msm7xxxx ares o fast, your statement is not so valid
Nov 20 08:46:48 <Leeds> the point is that it isn't a case of porting or optimising existing code - in most cases it'll be almost a rewrite
Nov 20 08:46:56 <xsdg> dcordes: we run it clocked down to conserve battery
Nov 20 08:47:05 <dcordes> xsdg col
Nov 20 08:47:06 <dcordes> cool
Nov 20 08:47:06 <geist> the new arm11s are pretty fast, but it's still an order of magnitude slower than a desktop cpu
Nov 20 08:48:04 <Leeds> we started working with resource-constrained ARM devices in around 2000 - but very little of the userspace work from that time is available to Android - at least not to app developers
Nov 20 08:48:30 <dcordes> there is no point in locking down the system that severely, other than marketing fullstop
Nov 20 08:48:32 <dcordes> so the discussion is pointless
Nov 20 08:49:00 <xsdg> Leeds: well, using X would have been a big loss for the platform, I think
Nov 20 08:49:00 <Leeds> I'm not saying that it's wrong to have Java as the primary platform, at all - there are lots of reasons
Nov 20 08:49:00 <Gary|tp> I was studying the 6502 CPU for a bit, but I don't think I have the knowledge to optimize it enough to run on the g1
Nov 20 08:49:05 <Leeds> xsdg: but if there was an SDL target, for example...
Nov 20 08:49:32 <xsdg> Leeds: "write one"
Nov 20 08:49:32 <Gary|tp> Plus, how would you do controls :/
Nov 20 08:49:32 <dcordes> Leeds ack
Nov 20 08:49:32 <xsdg> Leeds: it's not like we have infinite time
Nov 20 08:49:50 <Leeds> xsdg: is there any way to get something to the screen outside of dalvik?
Nov 20 08:50:13 <Leeds> I don't know how tightly coupled that sort of thing is
Nov 20 08:50:13 <xsdg> Leeds: OpenGL ES, for one
Nov 20 08:50:13 <dcordes> Leeds how about the other waya round?
Nov 20 08:50:13 <Leeds> dcordes: what?
Nov 20 08:50:49 <Leeds> okay, that's interesting :-)
Nov 20 08:51:32 <dcordes> Leeds sorry, what do you mean getting something tot he screen outside of OE?
Nov 20 08:51:41 <dcordes> dalvik
Nov 20 08:51:41 <dcordes> haha
Nov 20 08:52:06 <Leeds> dcordes: what I mean is... Java/dalvik things get to draw on the screen, take part in the OS... C things can't
Nov 20 08:52:30 <Leeds> so even if you have snes9x running perfectly, there is no channel for it to do I/O
Nov 20 08:53:10 <xsdg> Leeds: native apps aren't officially supported yet (and how native stuff works may change in ways that break backward-compatibility before it does become supported)
Nov 20 08:53:19 <dcordes> OK I have no clue about that. what I mean was virtualizing dalvik on your other system
Nov 20 08:53:19 <xsdg> Leeds: but native apps can use OpenGL, yes
Nov 20 08:53:29 <Leeds> erm, would that be a clear statement that there is an intent to support native apps? :-)
Nov 20 08:54:27 <xsdg> Leeds: likely at some point.  When? I have no idea
Nov 20 08:55:26 <dcordes> Leeds no but you can use a different device with thes ame chipseta d slightly better hardware like the raphael. roll your own kernel, boot whatever filesystem you want..
Nov 20 08:55:50 <Leeds> dcordes: not useful
Nov 20 08:55:58 <dcordes> why?
Nov 20 08:56:21 <dcordes> depends onw hat you want..
Nov 20 08:56:22 <Leeds> firstly because it would require me to obtain a new device
Nov 20 08:56:24 <Leeds> then get android running well and stably on it
Nov 20 08:56:31 <dcordes> ha :)
Nov 20 08:57:00 <dcordes> that is no problem. since it's thes ame modem it works ootb
Nov 20 08:57:05 <Leeds> more to the point - the interesting thing about Android is that it's running out of the box on shipped mass-market hardware
Nov 20 08:57:26 <dcordes> and on thed evices we hack
Nov 20 08:57:30 <Leeds> so having something which runs on, say, a hacked raphael (whatever the fsck that is) but not on a G1 is uninteresting
Nov 20 08:58:52 <simpletuning> it's kinda hard doing this on the g1 -_-
Nov 20 09:00:28 <dcordes> Leeds raphael is like the g1 with more sexy hardware
Nov 20 09:00:46 <Leeds> I'm not an HTC person, I'm a Linux person
Nov 20 09:00:47 <dcordes> or the xperia x1 is a nice alternative as well
Nov 20 09:00:47 <simpletuning> huh?
Nov 20 09:01:02 <dcordes> Leeds you are - you use the g1 :)
Nov 20 09:01:02 <simpletuning> im thinking about returning the g1
Nov 20 09:01:14 <dcordes> I'm no android person I'm a linux person :p
Nov 20 09:01:29 <dcordes> sorry got somew ork to do bbiab.
Nov 20 09:01:29 <simpletuning> im low on disk space already for apps
Nov 20 09:01:33 <simpletuning> that's kind of pathetic
Nov 20 09:01:59 <simpletuning> my n95 8gb was more satisfying even with no qwerty
Nov 20 09:02:20 <Leeds> simpletuning: no, no, please stay, we need you!
Nov 20 09:02:20 <simpletuning> g1 sucks atm for an app whore
Nov 20 09:02:44 <dcordes> simpletuning create an ex2 fs on 16gb sd and outsource some stuff to it
Nov 20 09:02:44 <simpletuning> well tell the devs to give me more space!
Nov 20 09:03:25 <simpletuning> cant install apps to sd?
Nov 20 09:03:45 <simpletuning> i dont even have that many apps -_-
Nov 20 09:03:58 <simpletuning> most in the market right now are buggy and crap
Nov 20 09:04:25 <simpletuning> i think im going back to symbian
Nov 20 09:04:40 <simpletuning> android is just too new right now
Nov 20 09:05:29 <simpletuning> symbian s60 3rd edition is so much better
Nov 20 09:05:33 <Leeds> good to know
Nov 20 09:06:08 <simpletuning> maybe when they have more phones in q1 '09 it'll get better
Nov 20 09:06:08 <Leeds> very productive feedback
Nov 20 09:06:25 <simpletuning> i like the phone dont get me wrong
Nov 20 09:06:25 <simpletuning> but it's just still too lacking
Nov 20 09:07:54 * hendry does not care about dalvik apps. Wants to see improvements in the browser+gears...
Nov 20 09:08:27 <Leeds> the browser is a dalvik app, isn't it?
Nov 20 09:08:28 <simpletuning> is the bb storm any good?
Nov 20 09:09:02 <simpletuning> i still want a real qwerty though
Nov 20 09:09:13 <simpletuning> i wonder the touch hd pro hmm..
Nov 20 09:09:14 <hendry> Leeds: gears+browser at heart are native C
Nov 20 09:10:31 <Leeds> hendry: I think webkit is (mainly?) C++
Nov 20 09:13:57 <hendry> Leeds: yup
Nov 20 09:30:11 <dcordes> simpletuning there is no touch hd pro. there is touch pro (htc raphael) and the touch hd (htc blackstone)
Nov 20 09:30:16 <dcordes> both are very similar to the g1
Nov 20 09:30:42 <dcordes> you can boot linux on the touch pro and make calls in android
Nov 20 09:34:27 <dcordes> when can I buy the g1 in .eu ?
Nov 20 09:35:11 <Leeds> you can buy it in the UK now
Nov 20 09:35:26 <Leeds> you can probably buy a grey imported one in most places
Nov 20 09:36:26 <dcordes> I'm in germany. maybe I will gof or one on ebay
Nov 20 09:37:05 <dcordes> Leeds you got yours with a tmob contract?
Nov 20 09:37:14 <Leeds> dcordes: no, they are not available in Hong Kong
Nov 20 09:37:36 <dcordes> sorry I somehow was assuming you were in uk
Nov 20 09:38:14 <Leeds> now why would you assume that? :-)
Nov 20 09:38:22 <dcordes> heh
Nov 20 09:38:57 <Leeds> nah, I moved out here a few years ago
Nov 20 09:41:52 <dcordes> Leeds do you work with arm systems?
Nov 20 09:41:52 <Leeds> nope
Nov 20 09:42:38 <Leeds> I played with arm linux stuff for a while... was offered a couple of jobs in '00 which would probably have meant working with arm, but I've never actually worked on them
Nov 20 09:44:22 <languish> as strange as this sounds.. I'd like a "Zune" client for the G1, as I use it primarily for video podcasts
Nov 20 09:44:22 <languish> :/
Nov 20 09:44:22 <dcordes> and now you picked up the g1 to carry on playing with linux stuff
Nov 20 09:44:32 <dcordes> and notice it's not that much of linux development
Nov 20 09:45:28 <Leeds> no, not really
Nov 20 09:46:05 <Leeds> as long as I do have root and can mess around underneath, I'm happy enough doing Java stuff on it... I spent quite a while (before and after my arm-linux phase) using and messing with PalmOS, so I'm not *that* wedded to Linux
Nov 20 09:46:43 <Leeds> what I refuse to do is use a platform when the manufacturer/vendor controls what I do with my device
Nov 20 09:46:43 <Leeds> and/or where it has to be hacked to be at all useful
Nov 20 09:47:38 <Leeds> languish: actually 'Zune', or just video podcast?
Nov 20 09:49:27 <Leeds> but I do have a weakness for 'devices which run Linux' - tivo, xbox, router, phone...
Nov 20 09:52:42 <languish> Leeds, well.. if it functions the way zune does.. listing video podcasts, perhaps with e desktop client to convert them automatically whithout configuration headaches on my end...
Nov 20 09:52:50 <languish> e/a
Nov 20 09:53:34 <languish> I'm not married to it being zine branded
Nov 20 09:53:47 <languish> *zune
Nov 20 09:54:04 <languish> I just want the functionality and ease of use
Nov 20 09:54:21 <Leeds> ok
Nov 20 09:55:04 <languish> </consumer>
Nov 20 09:56:32 <irig> hi all
Nov 20 09:56:36 <irig> where is media player present on android emulator ?
Nov 20 09:57:33 <Leeds> irig: I answered that question hours ago
Nov 20 09:58:07 <irig> but dont know how to download media player from adb
Nov 20 09:58:24 <irig> but i see some thing in menu called api demos
Nov 20 09:58:24 <irig> what are those ?
Nov 20 09:59:51 <irig> when i click tht part it says please edit MediaPlayerDemo_Video Activity and set the path
Nov 20 10:12:12 <dcordes> Leeds isn't that the case for g1?
Nov 20 10:12:22 <Leeds> dcordes: what?
Nov 20 10:12:59 <dcordes> what you said, vendor control
Nov 20 10:13:46 <Leeds> there is some vendor control, but a lot less than, say, Symbian or mobile OSX - and with a minute amount of hacking, virtually none
Nov 20 10:14:48 <dcordes> what's that hacking that leads to no control?
Nov 20 10:14:48 <Leeds> think of the tivo... it's extremely useful without being hacked, and even more useful afterwards
Nov 20 10:14:56 <Leeds> if I've got root, I've got almost complete control
Nov 20 10:15:23 <dcordes> can you boot your own kernel?
Nov 20 10:16:03 <languish> on a hacked g1 yeah
Nov 20 10:16:04 <Leeds> in principle, yes, as far as I know
Nov 20 10:16:34 <dcordes> cool
Nov 20 10:16:43 <dcordes> did somebody present do that?
Nov 20 10:17:00 <languish> dunno if he's here/awake atm but he's been in here yeah
Nov 20 10:17:18 <languish> and the google devs have I would think
Nov 20 10:17:52 <languish> so yeah :)
Nov 20 10:17:56 <dcordes> can you access the nand partition with the kernel image and amss?
Nov 20 10:18:14 <Leeds> once you're root... pretty much everything is open
Nov 20 10:20:14 <Leeds> AFAIK there is very little closed software between the bootloader and a couple of the user apps - the kernel and the entire infrastructure is open
Nov 20 10:21:34 <dcordes> if you can boot your own kernel it's not so important now to access those nand partitions anyway
Nov 20 10:21:43 <dcordes> but the msm7* is not much of an open infrastructure
Nov 20 10:21:48 <dcordes> but that's a whole different aspect
Nov 20 10:22:03 <Leeds> you mean the processor?
Nov 20 10:22:18 <dcordes> yes qct msm7201a
Nov 20 10:22:32 <dcordes> and the other msm7*
Nov 20 10:22:47 <Leeds> ah, I'm not too fussed about the hardware, as long as I have open software to run on it
Nov 20 10:23:37 <dcordes> the arm9 (baseband etc) side has too much control
Nov 20 10:23:47 <dcordes> to say you hve an open infrastructure
Nov 20 10:24:14 <Leeds> again... I mean software infrastructure... I'm a software guy through and through
Nov 20 10:25:23 <dcordes> I'm just saying
Nov 20 10:26:50 <Leeds> I would say... you think of the device as a phone... I think of it as a portable computer with some interested connectivity hardware included
Nov 20 10:27:29 <dcordes> no I don't
Nov 20 10:27:54 <dcordes> I like both about those devices
Nov 20 10:44:14 * BruceChang bows
Nov 20 10:44:14 <BruceChang> Hello all:
Nov 20 10:45:15 <BruceChang> I am new for android. Whom can I ask if I have questions?
Nov 20 10:47:24 <dcordes> BruceChang just ask it globally
Nov 20 10:48:43 <BruceChang> dcordes: thank you very much.
Nov 20 10:49:46 <BruceChang> i think it might be asked by many people before. when will Android running in x86 system not ARM base(Not emulator)? Or anyway to do it?
Nov 20 10:49:47 <dcordes> no problem. you even bowed down.
Nov 20 10:51:57 <BruceChang> I try to set the TARGET_ARCH;=x86 and set the emulator=false
Nov 20 10:52:17 <dcordes> BruceChang what's your target bord?
Nov 20 10:52:18 <BruceChang> dcordes: It's VIA's board
Nov 20 10:52:26 <BruceChang> dcordes: x86 system
Nov 20 10:53:30 <dcordes> you put a touchscreen?
Nov 20 10:53:49 <dcordes> (sorry I won't be of help, just curious)
Nov 20 10:54:19 <BruceChang> dcordes: just...
Nov 20 10:55:08 <BruceChang> dcordes: no...
Nov 20 10:55:08 <dcordes> wot?
Nov 20 10:55:42 <BruceChang> dcordes: do you know when will we have x86 version?
Nov 20 10:55:59 <dcordes> no clue. is your machine powerful?
Nov 20 10:57:02 <BruceChang> so so..but better than ARM I believe
Nov 20 10:58:15 <kRutOn>  bruce: you tried to compile the source for x86?
Nov 20 10:58:44 <dcordes> BruceChang what's your aim in running android on your via board?
Nov 20 11:00:00 <BruceChang> dcordes: just try to run it in x86 system. It's the trend
Nov 20 11:00:39 <dcordes> yea. maybe small umpcs or netbooks with 3g modema nd android would sell good
Nov 20 11:02:55 <BruceChang> exactly
Nov 20 11:03:47 <BruceChang> any other has idea fot it?
Nov 20 11:06:23 <simpleg1> run android as POS system OS
Nov 20 11:07:43 <BruceChang> how?
Nov 20 11:08:48 <simpleg1> just saw the merchant app for g1, would be nice to streamline it to make a POS system
Nov 20 11:09:06 <dcordes> BruceChang you can setup a sleek linux distro for x86 and see how android performs in qemu
Nov 20 11:09:09 <simpleg1> many more posibilities
Nov 20 11:09:17 <dcordes> simpleg1 what's a POS system?
Nov 20 11:09:21 <simpleg1> point of sale
Nov 20 11:09:32 <simpleg1> a wireless POS system would be cool
Nov 20 11:09:46 <BruceChang> i don't mean emulator
Nov 20 11:10:08 <dcordes> yea I know
Nov 20 11:10:31 <dcordes> but you could check. maybe it's fas enough to suite your needs
Nov 20 11:10:36 <simpleg1> it's already a credit card processing machine with the merchant app and merchant account
Nov 20 11:10:57 <simpleg1> with paypal virtual terminal that would work too i guess..
Nov 20 11:11:01 <BruceChang> simpleg1: replace arm by x86 cpu
Nov 20 11:11:28 <simpleg1> you dont like the qualcomm dual cpu?
Nov 20 11:11:32 <dcordes> right...
Nov 20 11:12:08 <simpleg1> well we'll see whoever releases the next android device and see what type of processor they use
Nov 20 11:12:16 <BruceChang> simpleg1: no.....intel/amd/via
Nov 20 11:12:33 <simpleg1> but think about the power consumption
Nov 20 11:12:37 <dcordes> BruceChang will
Nov 20 11:13:13 <dcordes> on a credit card reader with zune
Nov 20 11:13:18 <BruceChang> dcordes: when?
Nov 20 11:13:26 <simpleg1> i believe the current android release isnt even using hardware acceleration yet
Nov 20 11:13:32 <dcordes> simpleg1 :p
Nov 20 11:13:58 <simpleg1> so it's not exactly the hardware that is limiting the devices at this point
Nov 20 11:14:45 <simpleg1> do any of you use the g1?
Nov 20 11:15:29 <dcordes> what
Nov 20 11:15:31 <simple_g1> :D
Nov 20 11:15:44 <simple_g1> t-mobile g1?
Nov 20 11:22:15 <kRutOn> simple_g1: I use it for testing
Nov 20 11:29:53 <irig> hi all
Nov 20 11:30:02 <irig> how can i get eclipse ?
Nov 20 11:30:02 <BruceChang> dcordes: Does android use X11 window?
Nov 20 11:30:40 <irig> apt-get install eclipse ?? is this the way ?
Nov 20 11:30:57 <irig> or i should go to there site and download it ?
Nov 20 11:31:15 <BruceChang> irig: no it's emulator
Nov 20 11:32:25 <irig> BruceChang , wht is the meaning of no it's emulator
Nov 20 11:32:26 <irig> can you explain ?
Nov 20 11:37:41 <kRutOn> irig: Either way should work depending on your distro.
Nov 20 11:38:00 <BruceChang> thr program installed on eclipse seems to be an emilatpr
Nov 20 11:47:57 <Dialekt> shit man
Nov 20 11:48:09 <Dialekt> i'm almost ready to give android a shot
Nov 20 11:48:21 <Dialekt> failure in the blackberry storm is what I'm hearing
Nov 20 12:10:15 <irig> which eclipse for android ?
Nov 20 12:10:15 <irig> Java/C++ ?
Nov 20 12:10:32 <irig> or on both i can develop applications ?
Nov 20 12:11:05 <irig> can any one clarify ?
Nov 20 12:13:32 <montamer> i believe u need java eclipse
Nov 20 12:13:34 <irig> thanks montamer
Nov 20 12:20:29 <tauno_> sweet.. it's snowing..
Nov 20 12:23:58 <irig> hi invain
Nov 20 12:38:57 <Phlogi> anyone knows when new g1's come to market?
Nov 20 13:02:21 <invain> hi
Nov 20 13:04:29 <irig> how r u invain ?
Nov 20 13:04:51 <invain> how r u ..
Nov 20 13:04:59 <irig> sent you some personal messages
Nov 20 13:06:39 <irig> invain, sent you some personal messages
Nov 20 13:13:37 <irig> how to playa video file in the emulator ? can any one help me ?
Nov 20 13:14:21 <irig> or atleast that is possible or not ? please clarify me
Nov 20 13:35:29 <pandzilla> winfield: 3
Nov 20 13:35:29 <pandzilla> oops.
Nov 20 13:35:29 <pandzilla> sorry.
Nov 20 13:35:41 <winfield> Lol
Nov 20 13:36:23 <pandzilla> :)
Nov 20 13:36:35 <pandzilla> window switch FAIL
Nov 20 14:10:27 <Delvien> how many mhz does the g1' processor have?
Nov 20 14:11:21 <cdarwin> seventytwelve
Nov 20 14:11:40 <Delvien> sorry ghz
Nov 20 14:11:55 <Delvien> 702mhz?
Nov 20 14:12:14 <Delvien> err 701.2?
Nov 20 14:12:28 <cdarwin> it was meant as a joke
Nov 20 14:13:50 <Delvien> does anyone know .proc.cpuinfo doesnt say
Nov 20 14:13:55 <Delvien> .=/
Nov 20 14:14:20 <Leeds> 5something, I believe, but underclocked by default
Nov 20 14:16:24 <Delvien> kk ty
Nov 20 14:21:53 * michaelnovakjr yawns
Nov 20 14:37:43 <tauno_> http://www.gorkem-ercan.com/2008/11/will-java-have-place-in-future-of.html
Nov 20 14:45:45 <SanMehat> morning
Nov 20 14:45:54 <jbq> morning
Nov 20 14:45:54 <languish> \o
Nov 20 14:47:11 <Leeds> late evening :-)
Nov 20 14:47:36 <jbq> "it's always 5 o'clock somewhere. have a beer"
Nov 20 14:48:40 <jbq> android app idea: the beer clock: shows you exactly where in the world it's currently 5 o'clock.
Nov 20 14:49:45 <Leeds> cute :-)
Nov 20 14:51:17 <tauno_> almost, almost.. it's 4:51
Nov 20 14:51:56 <Hiro2> i wonder whats the ratio of ppl drinking beer
Nov 20 14:52:09 <Hiro2> "every 2 seconds, someone in the world is drinking beer"
Nov 20 14:52:18 <Hiro2> more like every second? hhaha
Nov 20 14:52:38 <jbq> must be higher than that. 86400 beers per day sounds awfully low.
Nov 20 14:53:16 <Hiro2> is that how many seconds per day?
Nov 20 14:53:20 <michaelnovakjr> yea that sounds like its just counting new york city
Nov 20 14:54:09 <Hiro2> I wonder if anybody actually counted every second of 24 hours... 86400 seconds that's a really long time
Nov 20 14:54:30 <jbq> let's see. 125 billion liters per year, 3 beers per liter, 31.5 million seconds per year...
Nov 20 14:55:01 <jbq> 12000 beers per second
Nov 20 14:57:36 <Hiro2> wow that's a lot
Nov 20 14:58:42 * jbq feels sorry for whoever has to clean the glasses
Nov 20 15:01:40 <tauno_> jbq, 3 beers per liter? where exactly are you living again? :P
Nov 20 15:02:45 <jbq> US cans and bottles are generally 12oz, i.e. 355 ml.
Nov 20 15:03:13 <jbq> (that's 12 US fl. oz)
Nov 20 15:03:13 <tauno_> ah yeah.. US.. heard of that :)
Nov 20 15:03:35 <jbq> In a bar you're more likely to get a US pint, 454 ml
Nov 20 15:03:35 <Leeds> 454ml is nothing like a pint!
Nov 20 15:04:23 <jbq> Uh, actually, 472ml in the US.
Nov 20 15:04:30 <tauno_> hmm.. that's still too little. In here it's 500ml for a normal beer and more and more places label this as "women" in their menus.. "men" beer is 1l :|
Nov 20 15:04:45 <loke> tauno_: unless you'r ein germany
Nov 20 15:04:51 <loke> 2l would be standard there
Nov 20 15:05:03 <jbq> heh :)
Nov 20 15:05:16 <tauno_> loke, nope, Estonia
Nov 20 15:05:37 <tauno_> 2l is here also.. its the "I don't want to get up and buy another ina few minutes, so I'll get a 2l one" beer
Nov 20 15:06:16 <tauno_> but most people drink 500ml or 1l
Nov 20 15:08:07 <tauno_> ..and it's also dirt cheap I guess if you compare it to the western world :)
Nov 20 15:12:05 <unix_lappy> you guys also forget that intoxication penalties are much more "expensive" there and public transit is ubiquitous...
Nov 20 15:15:42 <streeter> t-mobile 3G service started here today, just as promised. I'm very happy!
Nov 20 15:16:12 <SplasPood> tis nice and fast in nyc when it works ;)
Nov 20 15:17:25 <KNY> streeter, where are you?
Nov 20 15:17:47 <streeter> KNY: Huntsville, AL
Nov 20 15:18:12 <KNY> streeter, damn it, yet I don't get 3G here in Pittsburgh
Nov 20 15:18:14 <loke> streeter: where is "here"?
Nov 20 15:18:16 <KNY> heh
Nov 20 15:18:21 <loke> ph
Nov 20 15:18:22 <loke> oh
Nov 20 15:18:33 <loke> you USians are very late with 3G
Nov 20 15:18:47 <loke> I have country-wide HSDPA coverage :-)
Nov 20 15:19:00 <Disconnect> at&t has it. and verizon has been super fast for a few years now.
Nov 20 15:19:10 <streeter> loke: t-mobile is late with 3G. I've had 3G from AT&T for a long time.
Nov 20 15:19:42 <Disconnect> depending on the country, that could be considered a single metropolitan area in the usa :)
Nov 20 15:20:12 <loke> Disconnect: Singapore :-)
Nov 20 15:20:16 <jbq> yeah, the US is so large that there are many places where you don't get any coverage at all from any carrier (satellite phones to the rescue)
Nov 20 15:20:36 <Leeds> loke: oh really/
Nov 20 15:20:53 <loke> which is the smallest state in the us?
Nov 20 15:21:05 <Disconnect> delaware
Nov 20 15:21:16 * Leeds is heading to Singapore in about 21 hours for a weekend away with the GF
Nov 20 15:21:16 <streeter> Rhode Island, I think
Nov 20 15:21:16 <Leeds> Disconnect: isn't it rhode island?
Nov 20 15:21:16 <Disconnect> yah my bad
Nov 20 15:21:26 <loke> hmm
Nov 20 15:21:30 <Disconnect> was just realizing that. but DE is fastest to drive through :)
Nov 20 15:21:33 <loke> rhode island is larger than singapore
Nov 20 15:21:42 <loke> 5 times, to be precise
Nov 20 15:22:07 <Leeds> loke: do you have a G1?
Nov 20 15:22:16 <loke> Leeds: no. it's not available here
Nov 20 15:22:37 <Leeds> it's not available here either, but I've got one - sort of :-)
Nov 20 15:22:58 <loke> I'm waiting for an android phone which is not sponsored by a provider, like most phones (except the g1 and iphone)
Nov 20 15:23:14 <loke> at least phones are never operator-locked here
Nov 20 15:23:43 <Leeds> my G1 has very little to do with t-mob... and there's no locking here either - here being Hong Kong, by the way
Nov 20 15:24:50 <loke> Leeds: I have always been impressed with the HTC hardware, but their constant brown-nosing of Windows Mobile has frustrated me... Which is why it was annoying as hell seeing that HTC decided not to sell the G1 themselves
Nov 20 15:24:58 <loke> I just can't fathom why
Nov 20 15:25:08 <loke> contractual issues with MS?
Nov 20 15:25:19 <Leeds> I assume they will, after their big-money exclusive contract with tmob runs out
Nov 20 15:25:20 <loke> imagine android on some of their high-end models
Nov 20 15:25:44 <loke> man, those phones screams for android.
Nov 20 15:25:58 <loke> liek the touch diamond
Nov 20 15:26:45 <loke> i mean the touch pro
Nov 20 15:27:17 <Leeds> there was someone around here earlier on who seemed pretty sure Android would port over relatively easily
Nov 20 15:27:37 <loke> Leeds: if someone shows success with that, I'm buying the next day
Nov 20 15:28:32 <loke> I'm really salivating over the touch pro, but windows mobile makes me physically sick... I've had the misfortune to use it
Nov 20 15:28:36 <Leeds> how about buying one the day before and helping the port?
Nov 20 15:28:54 <unix_lappy> did we ever get a video player for the G1?
Nov 20 15:29:04 <loke> Leeds: sadly, I have absolutely no time for that... even though I wish I had. I love doing that kind of stuff
Nov 20 15:29:08 <Leeds> I've never used it :-D
Nov 20 15:29:10 <Damm> unix_lappy, it plays video.
Nov 20 15:29:10 <Damm> dunno if it plays it well
Nov 20 15:29:14 <Damm> there's also a video player on the market
Nov 20 15:29:14 <bert0>  loke, me too
Nov 20 15:29:32 <Leeds> the OS has video playing support, but no video player... the support is slightly limited - no .avi for example
Nov 20 15:29:33 <bert0> phantom alarms nearly made my gf break up with me
Nov 20 15:29:50 <loke> two small kids, a full-time job that also forces me to work on weekends, as well as trying to develop my own company makes for very little spare time
Nov 20 15:30:06 <vol> and an interesting sitcom plot
Nov 20 15:30:20 <vol> throw in a wacky neighbor and attractive love interest and you're set
Nov 20 15:30:20 <bert0> no .avi is slight?
Nov 20 15:30:36 <loke> I also intend to buy a bike and start excerising again, but that has been put on hold for far too long :-)
Nov 20 15:31:05 <Leeds> loke: anything particularly exciting happening in .sg this weekend which we tourists shouldn't miss? :-)
Nov 20 15:31:14 <loke> Leeds: you coming here?
Nov 20 15:31:35 <ttuttle> Disconnect: my invisibleshields shipped!
Nov 20 15:31:35 <Leeds> * Leeds is heading to Singapore in about 21 hours for a weekend away with the GF
Nov 20 15:31:46 <loke> Leeds: cool, been here before?
Nov 20 15:31:58 <Leeds> yup, couple of years ago, also for a weekend
Nov 20 15:32:33 <Disconnect> cool :)
Nov 20 15:32:41 <loke> Leeds: well, the sad thing is that this time of year tends to have lots of rain. On the good side, it's also less hot. It was pretty col today for example, only 29 degrees they said on the radio
Nov 20 15:33:07 <Leeds> heh... pretty cool here today as well - down to about 17C overnight
Nov 20 15:33:07 <tauno_> Disconnect, a coworker here also wants to order one.. you had some ref links? :)
Nov 20 15:33:26 <bert0> how can they advertise these like this? http://store.androidcentral.com/t-mobile-g1-bluetooth-stereo-headphones.htm
Nov 20 15:33:31 <loke> Leeds: anyway, in three weeks, Kraftwerk is coming and doing a concert. :-)  I'm going
Nov 20 15:33:33 <bert0> ...optimizes your mobile music experience
Nov 20 15:33:39 <loke> Leeds: ouch
Nov 20 15:33:39 <Disconnect> tauno_: yah there's an ad on my neglected site :) www.gotontheinter.net on the right
Nov 20 15:33:40 <Leeds> they're coming here too
Nov 20 15:33:45 <loke> Leeds: cool. you going?
Nov 20 15:33:56 <Leeds> nah
Nov 20 15:34:21 <loke> Leeds: 17 C... ouch. I'm from Sweden originally, so I know cold... but I still hate it :-)  (that's why I like it here. never have to freeze)
Nov 20 15:34:33 <tauno_> huh.. -1C here currently :/
Nov 20 15:34:36 <loke> 17 C would be a normal summer day in sweden
Nov 20 15:34:54 <Leeds> I'm from the UK (obviously enough to any Brits) and I like the weather here now - 29 is pretty hot for me
Nov 20 15:35:16 <tauno_> ..and still snowing a little..
Nov 20 15:35:21 <loke> Leeds: I figured you were from uk, yes :-)
Nov 20 15:36:50 <loke> Leeds: anyway, you can always do the standard stuff, like visiting the zoo or botanical gardens
Nov 20 15:37:08 <loke> Leeds: shopping is always good, but HK has that too :-)
Nov 20 15:38:15 <Leeds> planning to go to the night safari - I did it last time and enjoyed it - go on the wheel... some shopping... hawker food... gf wants photos at the merlion...
Nov 20 15:38:33 <unix_lappy> Leeds: which is why I asked if we got a proper video player.
Nov 20 15:38:35 <loke> Leeds: mm... food :-)
Nov 20 15:38:53 <Leeds> unix_lappy: not that I'm aware of, but I've been offline for a few days
Nov 20 15:39:22 <loke> the night safari is good. I've only went there once though. Usually we go to the regular zoo with the kids
Nov 20 15:39:35 <loke> my 2 year-old daughter loves the giraffes :-)
Nov 20 15:40:10 <loke> it can be a bit sweaty there if you're not used to the tropical heat though
Nov 20 15:40:16 <loke> during the day that is
Nov 20 15:40:22 <wastrel> zoo eh
Nov 20 15:40:39 <wastrel> we should go to the zoo
Nov 20 15:40:39 <Leeds> oh really? :-)
Nov 20 15:40:52 <loke> http://www.zoo.com.sg/index.htm
Nov 20 15:41:04 <loke> wastrel: yes, see above :-)
Nov 20 15:41:05 <wastrel> where are you now SD?
Nov 20 15:42:12 <Leeds> out of interest, what takes a Swede to Singapore?
Nov 20 15:42:44 <loke> Leeds: work, hate of cold weather, family... not necessarily in that order :-)
Nov 20 15:43:22 <loke> Leeds: I could ask you the same thing. What takes a brit to HK? (do you speak cantonese?)
Nov 20 15:43:23 <Leeds> taxes?
Nov 20 15:43:23 <Leeds> great reason to be in HK...
Nov 20 15:43:36 <loke> Leeds: taxes are certainly better here, yes
Nov 20 15:43:41 <Leeds> no, I don't, and women's underwear
Nov 20 15:44:01 <loke> Leeds: Cosplay? :-)
Nov 20 15:44:17 <Leeds> bras, mainly
Nov 20 15:44:19 <Leeds> (not 'good's)
Nov 20 15:44:56 <loke> This pic symbolises HK to me:
Nov 20 15:44:57 <loke> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Wikipe-tan_(Cosplay).jpg
Nov 20 15:46:06 <Leeds> cosplay really isn't that big a deal around here, to be honest
Nov 20 15:46:46 <loke> Leeds: well, I've actually never been to HK, so I wouldn't actually know :-)
Nov 20 15:47:23 <Leeds> there's some really crappy fashion, but not so much cosplay
Nov 20 15:47:34 <Leeds> anyway, I was offered a job here by family-of-family, working for their underwear company... it seemed a good idea at the time, so I accepted
Nov 20 15:48:06 <loke> Leeds: doing what?
Nov 20 15:48:09 <Hiro2> Leeds: then?
Nov 20 15:48:23 <unix_lappy> not necessarily attractive asian girls living on a fantasy world?
Nov 20 15:48:27 <loke> http://lh5.ggpht.com/_QF1FsGXHhEc/SJXGWvE9EII/AAAAAAAACpI/H6hhbc-96gY/gong_li_sexy_chinese_girl.jpg
Nov 20 15:48:39 <loke> hong kong underwear! :-)
Nov 20 15:48:46 <unix_lappy> 404
Nov 20 15:48:46 <Leeds> Hiro2: then they fired me, I went through a couple more jobs... been here a few years now
Nov 20 15:48:49 <loke> gong li is from HK, right?
Nov 20 15:49:03 <Hiro2> Leeds: why did they fire you?
Nov 20 15:49:22 <Leeds> Hiro2: un-necessarily personal question, I think
Nov 20 15:52:59 <dd94300> Is anybody have seen this error in Eclipse? 'Failed to connect to remote VM. Connection Refused.'
Nov 20 15:53:45 <fadden0> dd94300: you trying to debug an app?
Nov 20 15:53:52 <dd94300> fadden0: yes ...actually the source code
Nov 20 15:54:03 <fadden0> Did you mark it as debuggable in the manifest?
Nov 20 15:54:38 <fadden0> (should only be necessary on a real device, I think)
Nov 20 15:55:58 <dd94300> fadden0: i have built complete source code in eclipse and trying to debug as Remote Java Application
Nov 20 15:56:15 <dd94300> localhost:8700
Nov 20 15:56:32 <fadden0> You have DDMS or the ADT plugin running and connected to your emulator or device?
Nov 20 15:56:51 <fadden0> (DDMS listens on port 8700 and forwards it over adb to the emulator/device)
Nov 20 15:57:15 <dd94300> oh.. I see.
Nov 20 15:57:30 <dd94300> how do i change it?
Nov 20 15:57:58 <fadden0> Are you using DDMS stand-alone, the ADT plugin for Eclipse, or none of the above?
Nov 20 15:58:16 <dd94300> ADT plugin for Eclipse
Nov 20 15:58:30 <fadden0> There should be a view in there somewhere that lets you select the device and then the app you want to debug.
Nov 20 15:59:41 <fadden0> dd94300: http://code.google.com/android/intro/develop-and-debug.html#developingondevicehardware
Nov 20 15:59:49 <dd94300> I see the view but no device are attached....i have emulator running
Nov 20 16:00:04 <fadden0> (actually, you can lose the #developingondevicehardware if you're on an emulator)
Nov 20 16:00:19 <fadden0> "adb devices" should show the emulator.  If it doesn't, something's off.
Nov 20 16:03:42 <fadden0> brb
Nov 20 16:05:00 <dd94300> thanks fadden0, i will have to work on little bit
Nov 20 16:08:42 <joel> Any one has a good link for android build system (quite confuse with the make process)? Thanks
Nov 20 16:17:23 <jbq> joel: I don't have links off-hand, but I might be able to help. what are you trying to achieve?
Nov 20 16:35:02 <skbohra> hi everybody
Nov 20 16:35:35 <skbohra> how to compile android for a particular architecure
Nov 20 16:37:23 <jbq> At the moment only ARMv5TE is fully supported out of the box.
Nov 20 16:41:27 <invain> for a particular architecure?
Nov 20 16:41:47 <invain> Tell me example arch.
Nov 20 16:41:56 <joel> Thanks jbq. I want to add a new lib into android source tree
Nov 20 16:42:40 <invain> at first, you have to understand system libraries inthe android layers.
Nov 20 16:42:41 <joel> Jbq: for example, Bluez
Nov 20 16:42:52 <invain> um..
Nov 20 16:43:01 <invain> Do you have to use bluetooth service?
Nov 20 16:43:15 <jbq> joel: you're aware that bluez is already there, of course...
Nov 20 16:44:06 <invain> it correct..
Nov 20 16:44:06 <joel> jbq: yes, but have not source code, and the JNI maybe a fake one like camera libs
Nov 20 16:44:12 <invain> ??
Nov 20 16:44:23 <jbq> The source code is here: http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/external/bluez.git;a=summary
Nov 20 16:44:23 <invain> and full source is consist of bluez source.
Nov 20 16:44:50 <joel> I mean framework source code for Bluez in java side
Nov 20 16:44:58 <xnv> I heard rumors that Android apps could also be written in Python. Is this a lie?
Nov 20 16:45:10 <invain> no...
Nov 20 16:45:12 <invain> just
Nov 20 16:45:34 <jbq> ah. there should be examples of JNI peppered throughout the tree. Just grep for "native" in the java source files and follow things down from there.
Nov 20 16:45:37 <invain> google used python lang to build  androud source partially.
Nov 20 16:46:09 <jbq> invain: funny, I've worked on android for over a year, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
Nov 20 16:46:19 <invain> for example, emulator of android  is using python lang partially.
Nov 20 16:46:26 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Nov 20 16:46:27 <joel> time to learn python ...
Nov 20 16:46:39 <invain> and.. um...
Nov 20 16:47:02 <invain> when you build android full source, you wil use python code like "repo"command.
Nov 20 16:47:10 <xnv> I like the idea of Android... I just hate the idea of Java... was hoping there'd be an alternative
Nov 20 16:47:14 <michaelnovakjr> that's call a script dude
Nov 20 16:47:15 <invain> I think so
Nov 20 16:47:19 <michaelnovakjr> invain: they made that so its easier
Nov 20 16:47:47 <michaelnovakjr> its in no way evidence that is what is internally used
Nov 20 16:47:48 <invain> what is it means?
Nov 20 16:48:03 <invain> about phthon usage for android ?
Nov 20 16:48:03 <jbq> oh, you meant, some of the tools used to manage android are in python. yes, that's correct. But I don't think that there's any python in anything that actually ends up on the phone.
Nov 20 16:48:04 <invain> yes.
Nov 20 16:48:07 <invain> it's correct.
Nov 20 16:48:29 <michaelnovakjr> jbq, do you use the repo stuff internally?
Nov 20 16:48:44 <invain> i have to sleep..
Nov 20 16:48:45 <invain> bye..
Nov 20 16:48:51 <invain> see u again...
Nov 20 16:48:51 <michaelnovakjr> haha
Nov 20 16:48:51 <jbq> michaelnovakjr: we're in transition from our old system to repo, so some of the team does and some of the team is still using the old tools.
Nov 20 16:49:19 <michaelnovakjr> not using perforce are you :)
Nov 20 16:49:40 <jbq> google doesn't normally talk about its internal tools.
Nov 20 16:49:49 <obra> I must say I'm quite impressed with how slick repo is for something that's "newish and in transition"
Nov 20 16:50:21 <wastrel> what's repo now?
Nov 20 16:50:29 <obra> my assumption (until I was corrected) was that the android team had been using and refining it for a couple year
Nov 20 16:50:30 <obra> s
Nov 20 16:50:30 <michaelnovakjr> its the python script to easy the build process
Nov 20 16:50:48 <michaelnovakjr> s/easy/ease
Nov 20 16:50:56 <jbq> wastrel: repo is the tool that allows to manage a project that's scattered over 100+ git repositories, and that interfaces with gerrit.
Nov 20 16:50:57 <joel> I will investigate "native" thing in framework, thanks jbq.
Nov 20 16:51:39 <obra> jbq: is gerrit on the opensource track?
Nov 20 16:51:58 <jbq> obra: gerrit is fully open-source (so is repo). http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=tools/gerrit.git;a=summary
Nov 20 16:52:18 <obra> *sheepish* I knew repo was. I hadn't noticed gerrit. Thank you.
Nov 20 16:53:18 <wastrel> thx
Nov 20 16:58:09 <Disconnect> ooh interesting post on and-dev. dex may be creating static-linked binaries, which makes the lgpl viral on android :(
Nov 20 16:58:33 <jbq> url?
Nov 20 16:59:42 <Disconnect> lookig. (goog should add web-archive links to the message headers of it's lists. not "the whole archive is here" but "this message is at <foo>")
Nov 20 16:59:55 <Disconnect> http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/68b31fe42caf6113?hl=en
Nov 20 17:00:14 <Disconnect> its just a "hey, this might not be ok for me" post
Nov 20 17:00:28 <jbq> OK, thanks. I hadn't noticed it.
Nov 20 17:01:29 <jbq> I don't know exactly how the output is packaged in .dex files. fadden would definitely know.
Nov 20 17:02:42 <danfuzz> i don't think dx (nb: dx is the tool and dex is the format) produces "staticly linked" executables for the usual definition of that term
Nov 20 17:02:58 <danfuzz> will look at the post when i'm at my desk (riding the bus right now)
Nov 20 17:03:19 <andyross> The requirement seems specious, FWIW.  Static vs. dynamic linking has never been a legal distinction -- even the LGPL offers both.
Nov 20 17:04:48 <Disconnect> yah but istr the lgpl says "a single system binary with code from foo is considered static linked" so you'd have to prove/establish that dex is basically just an archive format..
Nov 20 17:05:00 <Disconnect> (quotes for distinction, not for "this text is in there somewhere" :) ..)
Nov 20 17:05:04 <jbq> DannyB: did you see that?
Nov 20 17:05:22 <DannyB> see what
Nov 20 17:05:37 <jbq> sorry. http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/68b31fe42caf6113?hl=en
Nov 20 17:06:01 <andyross> Yeah, but the LGPL still *allows* static binaries as a distribution format, as long as you also ship libraries or archives that can be re-linked by the end user.  And if the GNU folks are OK with static linking not being an IP pollution mechanism, I can't see why anyone in the real world would be.
Nov 20 17:06:12 <DannyB> it's not about dynamic vs static linking
Nov 20 17:06:24 <DannyB> it is about whether the user can replace the lgpl'd portions
Nov 20 17:06:33 <RyeBrye> andyross - those people in the "real world" would be the annoying lawyers
Nov 20 17:06:45 <DannyB> "#
Nov 20 17:06:45 <DannyB> # b) Use a suitable shared library mechanism for linking with the Library. A suitable mechanism is one that (1) uses at run time a copy of the library already present on the user's computer system, rather than copying library functions into the executable, and (2) will operate properly with a modified version of the library, if the user installs one, as long as the modified version is interface-compatible with the version that the wor
Nov 20 17:06:57 <andyross> DannyB: Right.  But the post above cites a specific requirement for dynamic linkage, which I said was specious because even the LGPL doesn't care.  I think we agree.
Nov 20 17:07:02 <DannyB> yes, we agree
Nov 20 17:07:06 <RyeBrye> Yeah, LGPL has similar implications in Flex development - but it's unclear if you are really distributing the app since it's just loading in the browser? I never really dug too much into it
Nov 20 17:07:06 <DannyB> it's completely irrelevant to the LGPL
Nov 20 17:07:16 <DannyB> it so happens that dynamic linking is the way most people meet this requirement
Nov 20 17:07:19 <DannyB> but it is not the only way
Nov 20 17:07:48 <Disconnect> so how do i take MyBigUglyCommercialApp.apk and provide access to relink it with a modified lgpl library?
Nov 20 17:08:00 <DannyB> you could obviously meet the requirement in a java program by looking for an alternate version at runtime
Nov 20 17:08:08 <DannyB> Disconnect: runtime class loading?
Nov 20 17:08:21 <andyross> Disconnect: ship libMyBigUglyCommercialApp.so or libMyBigUglyCommercialApp.a
Nov 20 17:08:41 <DannyB> that would also work
Nov 20 17:09:02 <Disconnect> cool. someone should reply to him then :)
Nov 20 17:09:58 <DannyB> someone should ask him what the underlying requirement of dynamic linking comes from
Nov 20 17:10:42 <jbq> I can do that.
Nov 20 17:12:03 <DannyB> i just joined the group
Nov 20 17:12:04 <DannyB> i can do it so you aren't bugged by more email :)
Nov 20 17:12:20 <jbq> I'll gladly let you do it.
Nov 20 17:12:33 <danfuzz> DannyB to the rescue!
Nov 20 17:12:38 <jbq> DannyB: thanks for stepping in.
Nov 20 17:12:46 <DannyB> no prob
Nov 20 17:13:22 <DannyB> .dex is prelinked though, right?
Nov 20 17:13:46 <DannyB> IE all known library calls are pre-resolved
Nov 20 17:13:52 <jbq> I think that's done in odex, post-installation, but I might be wrong.
Nov 20 17:14:10 <danfuzz> jbq is right
Nov 20 17:14:17 <neerhaj> can G1 be connected to net using a hardline ?
Nov 20 17:14:31 <danfuzz> in a regular dex file, all interclass refs are symbolic
Nov 20 17:15:10 <DannyB> okay
Nov 20 17:15:48 <danfuzz> in an odex file, self-refs within the file and refs to the bootclasspath contents are optimized
Nov 20 17:16:06 <DannyB> Okay, are there any external symbolic references left?
Nov 20 17:16:06 <languish> <neerhaj> can G1 be connected to net using a hardline ? <- technically yes, over usb
Nov 20 17:16:19 <DannyB> IE are they stil resolved at runtime
Nov 20 17:16:19 <DannyB> or only resolved once
Nov 20 17:16:19 <danfuzz> there can be
Nov 20 17:16:34 <andyross> Dumb question: is there any user-accessible way to link against something *other* than your own code or the bootclasspath?
Nov 20 17:16:36 <danfuzz> if a dex file refers to external dexes *not* on the bootclasspath
Nov 20 17:16:36 <neerhaj> thought so, coz they did that at the Adobe conference.
Nov 20 17:16:58 <DannyB> okay
Nov 20 17:17:02 <danfuzz> in android's case, one example of this is the map library
Nov 20 17:17:02 <DannyB> so it is dynamically linked
Nov 20 17:17:02 <andyross> Yeah, but how does one do that?  Is there a ClassLoader somewhere?  I kinda thought that didn't work on the box.
Nov 20 17:17:12 <DannyB> it just happens to be pre-linked for optimization purposes
Nov 20 17:17:21 <danfuzz> right
Nov 20 17:17:52 <danfuzz> andyross: no way to do that in the current system
Nov 20 17:18:01 <andyross> OK, cool.  Just checking to see that I hadn't missed something :)
Nov 20 17:18:13 <danfuzz> it's a fairly tricky problem (we've thought about it a lot)
Nov 20 17:18:56 <danfuzz> if fadden shows up, you can bug him about the gory details
Nov 20 17:23:34 <xnv> Anyone know of any 'early adoption' problems with the T-Mobile G1? That's the only Android phone available, right?
Nov 20 17:24:02 <vol> Aside from hardware problems, not really
Nov 20 17:24:03 <vol> those don't really count
Nov 20 17:24:18 <xnv> vol: Hardware problems?
Nov 20 17:24:26 <andyross> Worst.  Camera.  Ever.  There, I said it.
Nov 20 17:24:27 <vol> poor battery life, hideous camera
Nov 20 17:25:13 <vol> abysmal ad campaign, but that's T-Mobile's fault
Nov 20 17:25:19 <vol> "Hey guys, my phone has google! You know! Google! You can... uh, search for stuff...."
Nov 20 17:25:19 <andyross> Really?  I actually like those ads.
Nov 20 17:25:22 <vol> are you shitting me?
Nov 20 17:25:36 <vol> the entire add is "Hey I have dumb questions, now I have a phone that accesses data plans! :D"
Nov 20 17:26:00 <vol> "HOLY COW THE PHONE HAS GOOGLE"
Nov 20 17:26:04 <xnv> Are there any better options for Android at the moment? And do we know yet which will be released next?
Nov 20 17:26:09 <andyross> Yeah.  "What's *really* in a hot dog?".  It's an ad that finally embraces the wikipedia addict.
Nov 20 17:26:30 <vol> ignore compass, accelerometer, wifi, 3g, decent processor, and the entire android nature so to speak
Nov 20 17:26:35 <vol> (the ten thousand free apps)
Nov 20 17:27:08 <andyross> The "with Google" bit seems silly only if you're in the tech industry and understand the distinctions.  This is intended to be a mass-market smartphone -- you aren't the target audience.
Nov 20 17:28:38 <andyross> xnv: T-Mobile stores in the US (and presumably UK) have G1's available for demos.  You can try one out.  Honestly, I think it's a great phone with warts, which is to say not much different from any other phone on the market.
Nov 20 17:31:14 <xnv> andyross: I'm in The Netherlands :-(
Nov 20 17:34:50 <marcone> xnv: try the emulator then :)
Nov 20 17:35:52 <kRutOn> andyross: Only certain areas have the G1..
Nov 20 17:35:56 <xnv> marcone: That's not the idea
Nov 20 17:36:57 <kRutOn> xnv: The emulator is the next best thing to a G1. The versions you can load onto other WinMo HTC devices don't really work well enough to give you an accurate impression.
Nov 20 17:40:13 <`vip> did anyone else leave the film on the front of their G1
Nov 20 17:40:57 <andyross> No, came off right out of the box.  Still no scratches, despite being carried around in a pocket.  Sturdier than I was expecting, although not quite iphone-glass sturdy I guess.
Nov 20 17:41:43 <`vip> ah i left mine
Nov 20 17:41:44 <`vip> still no scratches either
Nov 20 17:41:48 * ttuttle left mine on as long as it stuck.
Nov 20 17:41:59 <ttuttle> Then I took it off, and my phone got two scratches :(
Nov 20 17:42:16 * ttuttle ordered a nice screen protector for it.
Nov 20 17:42:24 <andyross> Keep your change and keys in the *other* pocket :)
Nov 20 17:42:53 <ttuttle> heh
Nov 20 17:43:06 <ttuttle> When tossing phone on to bed, make sure there is not a fork in the way.
Nov 20 17:43:10 <`vip> lol
Nov 20 17:43:19 <`vip> wtf
Nov 20 17:43:20 <`vip> REAL KINKY sex with forks?
Nov 20 17:43:20 <andyross> Or, y'know, don't put forks (!) in the bed in the first place.
Nov 20 17:44:00 <ttuttle> `vip: uh, no.
Nov 20 17:44:02 <ttuttle> vol: I was lying on my bed eating and doing homework.
Nov 20 17:44:49 <ttuttle> `vip: (I'm a computer science major living in an efficiency apartment, so my bed gets used for many, many things, but not sex.)
Nov 20 17:44:49 <ttuttle> er
Nov 20 17:44:49 <ttuttle> vol: sorry to highlight you
Nov 20 17:47:12 <`vip> ah ok
Nov 20 17:48:00 <ttuttle> ;-)
Nov 20 18:00:16 * vol shakes his fist at ttuttle 
Nov 20 18:00:20 * morrildl checks the channel name to make sure he didn't accidentally join #android-pr0n
Nov 20 18:17:02 <mattgyver83> Is there an email client (or does the regular one) or a way to request read reciepts?
Nov 20 18:17:42 <marcone> are there any clients anymore that honor such requests?
Nov 20 18:18:19 <mattgyver83> I believe that thunderbird and outlook let you
Nov 20 18:18:19 <andyross> I think Thunderbird still prompts when it gets one and gives you the option.  But yeah, that was a broken feature, can't be relied on any more, and should basically be considered a mistake.
Nov 20 18:18:27 <mattgyver83> That explains why you dont see it anymore
Nov 20 18:18:58 <wastrel> i get those from time to time
Nov 20 18:18:58 <mattgyver83> I have a problem with my email lagging behind and sending much later (sometimes days) after i sent it.  It would just be nice to have that feature.
Nov 20 18:19:02 <wastrel> from lawyers or hopeful salespeople
Nov 20 18:19:14 <andyross> It was a terrible privacy problem if implemented silently.  And the prompts are just plain annoying, and a terrible user experience.
Nov 20 18:21:40 <Disconnect> most allow for it tho. and its carried over into mms - i was awakened by a page the other morning that turned out to be an early riser reading an mms i'd send the afternoon before..
Nov 20 18:22:23 <Disconnect> (stupid tmob and/or g1 .. instead of doing the icon ala sms, it went total "OMG most important message EVER!!" on me :( ..)
Nov 20 18:25:33 <thoraxe> San-G1: androidirc??
Nov 20 18:28:44 <morrildl> my favorite is the "recall a previously sent message" feature
Nov 20 18:29:46 <jasta> morrildl: which can be used, actually, if you revise your e-mail delivery policy
Nov 20 18:30:08 <jasta> a lot of large companies do put a short delay on outgoing e-mails to allow that feature to work
Nov 20 18:32:42 <morrildl> sure, but once it leaves your servers, SMTP has no provision for it
Nov 20 18:32:42 <RyeBrye> AOL has that for AOL -> AOL mail
Nov 20 18:32:43 <morrildl> as a feature of your internal system, rock on
Nov 20 18:33:01 <morrildl> when I get one in my inbox that some Exchange user sent, I laugh at them :)
Nov 20 18:34:23 <wastrel> i haven't seen one of those
Nov 20 18:40:25 <ttuttle> good morning
Nov 20 18:44:55 <dbtid> ls out
Nov 20 18:45:20 <jbq> ls: out: No such file or directory
Nov 20 18:45:21 <Disconnect> out*
Nov 20 18:45:25 <dbtid> heh
Nov 20 18:45:28 <Disconnect> uhoh rootkit
Nov 20 18:45:55 <dbtid> so, i went and put the Android platform stuff on my machine, under ubuntu 8.10
Nov 20 18:45:59 <dbtid> i get ALL the stuff they say to get
Nov 20 18:45:59 <dbtid> then type 'make'
Nov 20 18:46:09 <dbtid> after about 10 seconds it says "Unrecognized option : 9999999"
Nov 20 18:46:35 <jbq> sounds like you're not using the official javac.
Nov 20 18:46:53 <dbtid> i did everything the instructions told me to do
Nov 20 18:46:58 <dbtid> i installed all the packages they said to install
Nov 20 18:47:02 <dbtid> how do i find out if i'm using the wrong javac?
Nov 20 18:47:14 <dbtid> javac -v
Nov 20 18:47:32 <dbtid> Eclipse Java Compilers v_774_R33x, 3.3.1
Nov 20 18:47:36 <dbtid> s/s / /
Nov 20 18:47:36 <infobot> dbtid meant: Eclipse Java Compiler v_774_R33x, 3.3.1
Nov 20 18:47:38 <thoraxe> anyone using the power manager application?
Nov 20 18:47:39 <jbq> I don't know - I just think (from patterns of issues that have been reported) that you need all the java-related tools to come form an official JDK. that's true of javac, javadoc, and others.
Nov 20 18:47:46 <thoraxe> i find that the service frequently stops for no reason
Nov 20 18:48:06 <dbtid> i installed the sun java stuff
Nov 20 18:48:06 <dbtid> it said i should use eclipse so i did
Nov 20 18:48:08 <dbtid> perhaps there's more than one java compiler
Nov 20 18:48:15 <dbtid> i will look into it
Nov 20 18:48:22 <jbq> dbtid: that's the most likely explanation.
Nov 20 18:48:35 <dbtid> thanks
Nov 20 18:48:49 <dbtid> that's pretty frustrating :)
Nov 20 18:49:00 <dbtid> i'll remove eclipse and see if that solves my problem
Nov 20 18:49:25 <jbq> yes. and it's frustrating for the people trying to create the build system, because there are so many different configurations out there...
Nov 20 18:49:34 <dbtid> yeah
Nov 20 18:49:37 <dbtid> i was surprised because i followed the instructions and Bad Things happened.
Nov 20 18:49:46 <dbtid> there's 5 "javac" files
Nov 20 18:49:57 <dbtid> must be it
Nov 20 18:50:26 <jbq> dbtid: which means that the android build system only has a 1-in-5 chance of finding the right one :|
Nov 20 18:50:26 <dbtid> i'm guessing i want /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-sun-1.6.0.10/bin/javac and not /usr/bin/javac
Nov 20 18:50:27 <jbq> sounds right
Nov 20 18:50:46 <dbtid> there weren't any instructions on what to do for setting the path...
Nov 20 18:51:14 * ttuttle uses the command line and it works wonderfully :)
Nov 20 18:51:45 <shackan> dbtid: here at least, /usr/bin/javac is just a symbolic link into /usr/lib/jvm/...
Nov 20 18:52:07 <fadden> "javac -version" should tell you what you're using
Nov 20 18:52:11 <dbtid> i wonder if i want java-6-sun-... or java-1.5.0...
Nov 20 18:52:17 <dbtid> fadden: it does; the one in /usr/bin is from Eclipse
Nov 20 18:52:54 <shackan> oh, you have two JDKs, not good
Nov 20 18:53:32 <dbtid> not sure how i got two; looks like there's more than that though... eclipse was listed as the IDE to use, but there's nothing there about javac.
Nov 20 18:54:01 <romainguy__> dbtid: use Javac 1.5.0
Nov 20 18:54:01 <dbtid> so now i set JAVA_HOME = ANDROID_JAVA_HOME = /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-1.6.0.10/
Nov 20 18:54:13 <romainguy__> that's what we use
Nov 20 18:54:23 <romainguy__> javac 1.6 should work but there's no guarantee
Nov 20 18:54:50 <dbtid> ok, so i set JAVA_HOME = /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-gcj-4.3-1.5.0.0
Nov 20 18:54:57 <dbtid> and i set ANDROID_JAVA_HOME to the same
Nov 20 18:54:57 <romainguy__> gcj ?
Nov 20 18:54:58 <dbtid> and I still
Nov 20 18:55:04 <dbtid> i don't know
Nov 20 18:55:16 <romainguy__> gcj is not Sun's javac
Nov 20 18:55:17 <romainguy__> I don't know if Android compiles with gcj
Nov 20 18:55:25 <jbq> nope, gcj doesn't do it.
Nov 20 18:55:31 <dbtid> well, first i set it to /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-1.6.0.10
Nov 20 18:55:38 <fadden> gcj libs are lacking some things.
Nov 20 18:55:38 <blau> ugh hating this training
Nov 20 18:55:43 <dbtid> that's JAVA_HOME and ANDROID_JAVA_HOME
Nov 20 18:56:12 <dbtid> well, given that i followed the instructions on source.android.com/download i didn't think i'd HAVE to get any training...
Nov 20 18:56:16 <dbtid> now, i'm using ubuntu 8.10 not 6.x
Nov 20 18:56:28 <dbtid> so maybe that's the problem
Nov 20 18:56:42 <blau> go buy a macbook
Nov 20 18:56:43 <dbtid> heh
Nov 20 18:56:43 <blau> no problem mon
Nov 20 18:58:24 <blau> i made 15 bucks from donations so far
Nov 20 18:58:32 <blau> woop
Nov 20 18:59:27 <`vip> what for ?
Nov 20 18:59:32 <blau> from my market apps
Nov 20 18:59:36 <ttuttle> nice
Nov 20 19:00:10 <`vip> which apps are yours ?
Nov 20 19:00:23 <`vip> sorry for my ignorance :P
Nov 20 19:01:00 <dbtid> well, it doesn't seem to matter WHICH javac i use
Nov 20 19:01:14 <dbtid> grr
Nov 20 19:01:15 <dbtid> scratch that
Nov 20 19:04:52 <dbtid> pebkac
Nov 20 19:04:59 <jt436> blau: which market apps are yours?
Nov 20 19:05:20 <dbtid> ok, that got it
Nov 20 19:08:56 <dbtid> ok, for future reference, here's what i did:
Nov 20 19:09:09 <dbtid> export JAVA_HOME=/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-sun-1.6.0.10
Nov 20 19:09:10 <dbtid> ANDROID_JAVA_HOME to same thing
Nov 20 19:09:14 <dbtid> then export PATH=$JAVA_HOME/bin:$PATH
Nov 20 19:09:18 <dbtid> that did it
Nov 20 19:09:28 <dbtid> the eclipse install installed it's javac int /usr/bin
Nov 20 19:09:31 <dbtid> *into
Nov 20 19:11:50 <kRutOn> Anybody know why a WebView wouldn't scroll in a ViewFlipper
Nov 20 19:11:58 <monteslu> can an android app answer a phone call and get an audio stream?
Nov 20 19:12:09 <kRutOn> until you go to a different view in the ViewFlipper and come back
Nov 20 19:12:14 <monteslu> was wondering if it would be possible to create a fax recipient
Nov 20 19:14:34 <vol> I notice in the MediaPlayer javadocs and the "How to use the MediaPlayer" page, there's a mention that code ought to check whether mp = new MediaPlayer() returns null
Nov 20 19:14:45 <vol> since when has new ever returned null?
Nov 20 19:14:55 <vol> is this an incredible typo, or should I seriously be checking for null returns from new MediaPlayer()
Nov 20 19:16:05 <andyross> new never returns null, it might throw an exception, but allocation in java doesn't fail silently.
Nov 20 19:16:14 <andyross> No doubt someone got confused with malloc(), I guess?
Nov 20 19:16:28 <vol> ... I guess
Nov 20 19:16:28 <vol> it's really wierd.
Nov 20 19:16:29 <marcone> vol: which page is that?
Nov 20 19:17:09 <vol> http://code.google.com/android/toolbox/apis/media.html
Nov 20 19:17:18 <vol> Playing a File
Nov 20 19:17:19 <vol> Note: It is possible that mp could be null, so good code should null check after the new. Also, IllegalArgumentException and IOException either need to be caught or passed on when using setDataSource(), since the file you are referencing may not exist.
Nov 20 19:17:31 <marcone> yeah, that's totally bogus
Nov 20 19:17:32 <andyross> The whole defensive-programming-must-check-all-arguments-in-code thing gets on my nerves.  The java community is especially vulnerable to that, which is odd considering that Java's checked exceptions are probably the best tool for *avoiding* that sort of nonsense.
Nov 20 19:17:32 <kRutOn> MediaPlayer.create() can return a null..
Nov 20 19:18:40 <kRutOn> I think that's what it's referring to
Nov 20 19:18:45 <vol> I suppose, but that's incredibly poor placement
Nov 20 19:18:51 <andyross> Even that sounds suspicious: you return a null to indicate something real (e.g. end of list, item not present, etc...).  Returning a null from a factory function sounds like a failure to me, and failures are supposed to be exceptions.
Nov 20 19:18:52 <kRutOn> yep
Nov 20 19:19:40 <Impossible> d03boy: hows ircell going?
Nov 20 19:19:55 <jbq> personally, I don't like "failures are supposed to be exceptions"
Nov 20 19:20:40 * jbq should have shut up instead of starting a flame war. sorry.
Nov 20 19:20:57 <andyross> Honestly, neither do I.  But even worse than a bad design is a mixed design, IMHO.  Java does exceptions.  Someone used to constructor utilities throwing them is going to write buggy error handling.
Nov 20 19:21:57 <jbq> yeah, things have to be consistent. it's just that, from my point of view, there's nothing exceptional in network failures (in fact I expect the network to fail more often than it succeeds!)
Nov 20 19:22:52 <andyross> Agreed, which is one of the reasons that low-level network code in Java tends look like insane gnomes tying knots with curly graces.
Nov 20 19:22:59 <andyross> er, braces
Nov 20 19:23:19 <jbq> lol
Nov 20 19:24:46 <vol> I've never heard it put that way
Nov 20 19:25:07 <vol> but yeah. At least you didn't look at java code where most methods were ints, and returned error codes
Nov 20 19:25:11 <vol> because exceptions are for losers
Nov 20 19:25:21 <vol> who needs an actual return type; you can just pretend that you have pointers, and pass an object that contains a reference to the object you want to have returned
Nov 20 19:27:08 <fadden> The real fun is how many ClassNotFound exceptions you have to generate when loading classes from something other than the bootstrap class loader.
Nov 20 19:27:39 <fadden> "Do you have it?" "No, here's a nice exception." "How about you, do you have it?" "No, me neither, here's another exception."
Nov 20 19:28:49 <vol> "How about you? Do you have it?" "No, but here's a cookie. Oops, I meant RuntimeException BLRHAFGHAFRAFRW"
Nov 20 19:31:07 * Disconnect wants a cookie
Nov 20 19:31:36 <Disconnect> but at least gmail is themable :) too bad the gmail app isn't :(
Nov 20 19:32:40 <unix_lappy> the gmail webapp isnt too terrible at all.
Nov 20 19:33:40 <Disconnect> the stock web interface? or the mobile-browser version?
Nov 20 19:33:44 <Disconnect> mobile browser is pretty ok. but it doesn't grok shift-click for select-range :(
Nov 20 19:40:26 <unix_lappy> hmm, i wonder how hard it would be / what kind of overhead would be involved with decoding xvid to h.264 on the fly to use with android media player
Nov 20 19:47:26 <herriojr> is there a broadcast sent out when I package gets installed or uninstalled?
Nov 20 19:47:46 <donomo> what directory do videos need to be in for the 'Video player' to find them?
Nov 20 19:48:10 <herriojr> donomo: what's the name of the application?
Nov 20 19:48:16 <herriojr> donomo: I'll look it up for you
Nov 20 19:48:30 <romainguy_> herriojr: yes
Nov 20 19:48:30 <donomo> herriojr: "Video Player" is the title
Nov 20 19:49:27 <donomo> heh. i made a guess at directory "Videos" and that worked.
Nov 20 19:50:07 <herriojr> donomo: ok
Nov 20 19:50:21 <herriojr> donomo: I couldn't even find the application associated with it *shrugs*
Nov 20 19:51:08 <unix_lappy> donomo: can you do video playlists?
Nov 20 19:51:26 <donomo> unix_lappy: i dont think so.
Nov 20 19:51:32 <donomo> is there an eBook reader for andoird?
Nov 20 19:51:33 <donomo> android, even.
Nov 20 19:52:30 <unix_lappy> i would settle for a pdf / doc reader.
Nov 20 19:52:32 <donomo> yeah, that too.
Nov 20 19:53:21 <unix_lappy> http://bsegonnes.free.fr/multireader/en_multireader.html
Nov 20 19:53:21 <unix_lappy> hmm
Nov 20 19:53:59 <donomo> unix_lappy: wow thx
Nov 20 19:55:08 <unix_lappy> there's also google docs mobile iirc.
Nov 20 19:56:19 <languish> T-Mobile USA, which is currently rolling out its 3G wireless network across the country, is turning to Yahoo to power its search and mobile Web portal in an effort to boost data usage.
Nov 20 19:56:19 <languish> ugh, why
Nov 20 20:06:02 <Disconnect> is google working to move their bugtracker external (or to integrate better with the one that is there)?
Nov 20 20:11:44 <Damm> languish, because yahoo gave them money
Nov 20 20:12:09 <Damm> that and infospace might be pissing them off
Nov 20 20:12:22 <Damm> languish, any url for reference on that?
Nov 20 20:19:02 <Disconnect> its all over. i think ig ot it from tmonews
Nov 20 20:19:38 <jbq> Disconnect: (scrolling back) yes, bug-tracking for the android open-source project will be moving to a place where it's accessible by everyone.
Nov 20 20:20:00 <Disconnect> cool deal
Nov 20 20:20:41 <Disconnect> i hoped so but some projects/companies prefer to do internal/external systems and 'approved' bugs disappear until they get marked fixed..
Nov 20 20:21:14 <jbq> ... and the consequences are, predictably, disastrous.
Nov 20 20:21:40 <jbq> (because you can't have a community if people don't use common tools).
Nov 20 20:24:45 <languish> Damm http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-10103900-94.html
Nov 20 20:27:17 <thoraxe> languish: why damn?
Nov 20 20:28:18 <languish> thoraxe, check the channel userlist :|
Nov 20 20:28:34 <languish> I didn't type damn
Nov 20 20:28:43 <languish> I typed damm
Nov 20 20:28:47 <languish> :)
Nov 20 20:31:05 <dd94300> i have emulator running and adb shell gives error:device not found
Nov 20 20:32:34 <fadden> "adb devices" should show you the emulator
Nov 20 20:32:46 <fadden> You can try "adb kill-server" to remove stale instances of the adb server that runs on your machine.
Nov 20 20:34:05 <dd94300> tried that still same error
Nov 20 20:34:35 <brocktice> I just noticed that the G1 fits perfectly in my little wireframe business card holder.
Nov 20 20:34:40 <brocktice> I think I found a stand for watching movies on the plane etc.
Nov 20 20:34:40 <fadden> dd94300: you running on Linux?
Nov 20 20:34:49 <dd94300> yes ubuntu 8.04
Nov 20 20:35:02 <brocktice> (In landscape mode, particularly)
Nov 20 20:35:29 <fadden> Does "netstat -a | grep 5554" show anything?
Nov 20 20:36:07 <dd94300> tcp        0      0 localhost:5554          *:*                     LISTEN
Nov 20 20:37:02 <fadden> I don't know why "adb" isn't seeing it.
Nov 20 20:52:27 <ttuttle> San-G1: Greetings.
Nov 20 20:52:33 <ttuttle> Hey, does anyone know of a good IRC client for the G1 yet?
Nov 20 20:52:52 <morrildl> ttuttle: apparently San does?
Nov 20 20:53:13 <ttuttle> morrildl: Yeah, it appears.
Nov 20 20:53:21 <mmattice> or he's proxying somehow :)
Nov 20 20:53:51 <brocktice> Yeah, more likely he's tethered.
Nov 20 20:54:27 <mmattice> ttuttle: connectbot->screen->irssi ;)
Nov 20 20:55:18 <jasta> thats what ive been using :)
Nov 20 20:55:28 <brocktice> That wouldn't explain the .tmodns.net
Nov 20 20:55:29 <ttuttle> mmattice: That's what I've been using too.
Nov 20 20:55:31 <brocktice> Oh, nm I see what you were saying
Nov 20 20:58:28 <Blice> hurra, irssi on the phone
Nov 20 20:58:46 <Blice> Good purchase.
Nov 20 21:06:00 <spikebike> purchasE?
Nov 20 21:17:20 <savid> Wow,  I had GPS turned on and my battery went from full to empty (while idle) within 3 hrs
Nov 20 21:21:16 <jasta> that surprises you?
Nov 20 21:21:35 <DarkriftX> damn, his internal nuclear and wind power facilities must have broken down
Nov 20 21:25:00 <mikey> :(, should be doing my flash project, keep on ending up fixing stuff for my android app
Nov 20 21:30:41 <grey-> so silly question; I haven't seen an irc client in the marketplace yet, has someone released one?
Nov 20 21:31:54 <mikey> someone here mentioned they would release one around friday iirc
Nov 20 21:31:58 <grey-> cool.
Nov 20 21:32:00 <mikey> mine is still not ready
Nov 20 22:02:44 <savid> jasta, yeah that surprises me.   My last phone had assisted GPS and I never had to disable it.. never drained my battery that quick
Nov 20 22:04:11 <DarkriftX> this isnt just agps though, right?
Nov 20 22:04:38 <jasta> savid: well, the G1 can get your location without GPS, and in fact, i think GPS is default off
Nov 20 22:04:38 <wastrel> it is
Nov 20 22:04:46 <jasta> there are lots of ways to get your location
Nov 20 22:05:09 <mmattice> a reasonable approximation of your location, within the confines of the radius of the closest cell tower
Nov 20 22:05:52 <savid> so, is the g1 gps /not/ agps?
Nov 20 22:06:13 <savid> if it is, I still don't see why it would suck my battery like that
Nov 20 22:06:40 <mmattice> gps chipset is a power hog
Nov 20 22:06:41 <ttuttle> GPS requires a fairly sensitive radio receiver.
Nov 20 22:06:48 <savid> my last phone (helio ocean) had agps as well,  and it would go at least a day and a half before I had to recharge it.
Nov 20 22:06:55 <jbq> The G1 GPS is a fully functional GPS unit that can work on its own without any pre-loaded data or network information.
Nov 20 22:07:21 <savid> jbq, ah, I guess that would explain it
Nov 20 22:07:27 <ttuttle> jbq: remind me... does it, as used in the g1, grab satellite data over the network?
Nov 20 22:07:53 <wastrel> agps i thought was from the cell tower
Nov 20 22:08:02 <wastrel> while gps is getting signal from satellites
Nov 20 22:08:11 <DarkriftX> correct (from what ive read)
Nov 20 22:08:12 <ttuttle> wastrel: no
Nov 20 22:08:12 <savid> I was under the impression that agps used both real GPS and cell towers
Nov 20 22:08:27 <jbq> ttuttle: I believe that under some circumstances if can get some data from the network instead of downloading it over the GPS link, which speeds up computing your location.
Nov 20 22:08:27 * savid trots off to wikipedia
Nov 20 22:08:32 <DarkriftX> lol
Nov 20 22:08:41 <jbq> I'm not an expert in the detailed implementation.
Nov 20 22:08:41 <ttuttle> wastrel: agps uses some external data (cell tower location or satellite positions) to help the gps receiver.
Nov 20 22:08:47 <DarkriftX> yeah
Nov 20 22:09:03 <DarkriftX> the agps reads data from cell towers to make the gps work faster
Nov 20 22:09:04 <DarkriftX> isnt that what was just said?
Nov 20 22:09:16 <ttuttle> wastrel: there's also a wimpy version where the phone *requires* a network connection -- it just records the satellite signals and sends them to a server for processing.
Nov 20 22:09:46 <ttuttle> DarkriftX: agps on the g1 doesn't use cell towers. it pulls satellite position data from a server.
Nov 20 22:09:46 <wastrel> i stand correcte
Nov 20 22:10:11 <DarkriftX> from a server, but how does it connect to the server?
Nov 20 22:10:12 <jasta> yay, it's snowing finally!
Nov 20 22:10:12 <RyeBrye> ttuttle - so is your magiic mythical phone using AT&T"s 3G freqs?
Nov 20 22:10:46 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: no, it's a t-mobile g1. it doesn't get 3g on at&t.
Nov 20 22:11:10 <jasta> which makes it useless
Nov 20 22:11:10 <jasta> :)
Nov 20 22:11:28 <ttuttle> jasta: no it doesn't.
Nov 20 22:11:28 <jasta> the g1 on edge fuckin sucks
Nov 20 22:11:28 <RyeBrye> ttuttle - oh, I thought you mentioned the radio was unlocked or whatever
Nov 20 22:11:37 <ttuttle> jasta: edge is decent, and i have wifi in most places.
Nov 20 22:11:45 <jasta> RyeBrye: this isnt a locking issue, the G1's radio doesnt support the frequencies used by AT&T
Nov 20 22:11:46 <KNY> jasta, it's better than no g1 on edge, but yeah, it sucks not having 3G
Nov 20 22:11:54 <jasta> RyeBrye: it cant be magically made to support them either
Nov 20 22:12:03 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: sure. that lets it use an at&t sim. it's still not physically capable of using at&t 3g freqs.
Nov 20 22:12:11 <RyeBrye> jasta - I wasn't sure how magica it was :)
Nov 20 22:12:20 <savid> yeah,  I've got my phone set to use edge,  I rarely need to enable 3G when I have wifi around
Nov 20 22:12:24 <RyeBrye> ttuttle - so it's a sim-unlocked radio then
Nov 20 22:12:41 <RyeBrye> ttuttle - but not necessarily a security unlocked one?
Nov 20 22:12:42 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: precisely
Nov 20 22:12:42 <savid> esp. w/ free t-mobile hotspots (though I haven't tried that yet)
Nov 20 22:12:50 <jasta> RyeBrye: in this case, not at all.  its hardware doesn't and can't work on AT&T 3G.
Nov 20 22:12:51 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: oh, it's security unlocked too (unlocked bootloader)
Nov 20 22:13:05 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: those are two independent unlocks, and i have both.
Nov 20 22:13:15 <DarkriftX> is there a way to map out tmo hotspots?
Nov 20 22:13:15 <RyeBrye> ttuttle - unlocked bootloader doesn't necessarily imply security unlocked, unless it really says... nm
Nov 20 22:13:20 <RyeBrye> ttuttle - How much for your phone! :) I'll give it back in a day, I promise! :)
Nov 20 22:13:30 <RyeBrye> make that... an hour!
Nov 20 22:13:51 <DarkriftX> better yet, just run a couple commands for us and send the output files to us
Nov 20 22:14:06 * RyeBrye doubts he'll be into that :)
Nov 20 22:14:09 <DarkriftX> but you think he would send his phone somewhere :S
Nov 20 22:14:14 <RyeBrye> I was kidding - but if he was game, I'd go with it :)
Nov 20 22:14:22 <DarkriftX> lol
Nov 20 22:15:09 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Sorry, I signed an NDA. I've got confidential builds on here.
Nov 20 22:15:09 <DarkriftX> google would assasinate him
Nov 20 22:15:13 <ttuttle> == DarkriftX
Nov 20 22:15:22 <romainguy_> we have a team of ninjas following ttuttle at all time
Nov 20 22:15:22 <DarkriftX> nice
Nov 20 22:15:39 <RyeBrye> damn ninjas!
Nov 20 22:15:39 <ttuttle> romainguy_: =D
Nov 20 22:15:39 <DarkriftX> i want that job lol
Nov 20 22:15:42 <DarkriftX> i want special darts to throw at ppl
Nov 20 22:15:42 <ttuttle> DarkriftX: lol
Nov 20 22:15:46 <DarkriftX> oooh, he gave out a secret! *tosses dart* *dart hits mans eye*
Nov 20 22:15:50 <ttuttle> lol
Nov 20 22:15:50 * DarkriftX dissapears into darkness again
Nov 20 22:16:09 * RyeBrye has no interest in the builds on the phone, just the bootloader itself
Nov 20 22:16:21 * DarkriftX is off to get daughter from the bus stop
Nov 20 22:16:23 <RyeBrye> but I guess the NDA probably goes up the channel to HTC crap on the phone too :(
Nov 20 22:16:51 <RyeBrye> So the bootloader says "security unlocked' explicitly? Because just having fastboot is not the same as having a security unlocked phone... :(
Nov 20 22:17:03 <cmonex> ttuttle
Nov 20 22:17:03 * RyeBrye gets jealous, and changes the subject
Nov 20 22:17:09 <cmonex> when you say "unlocked bootloader"
Nov 20 22:17:09 <cmonex> did you mean
Nov 20 22:17:19 <cmonex> unlocked radio bootloader OR unlocked hboot
Nov 20 22:17:19 <cmonex> ?
Nov 20 22:17:44 * RyeBrye is not the only jealous person, apparently :)
Nov 20 22:17:48 <ttuttle> cmonex: er, what's the radio bootloader?
Nov 20 22:17:57 <cmonex> ttuttle: what the name says :)
Nov 20 22:18:01 <ttuttle> cmonex: my hboot lets me flash anything over USB.
Nov 20 22:18:01 <jbq> he means the version of hboot that allows to reflash most of the phone over USB.
Nov 20 22:18:01 <cmonex> ttuttle: does it have a string "Security unlocked" in bootloader mode?
Nov 20 22:18:09 <cmonex> jbq: the shipped hboot is capable of that too
Nov 20 22:18:09 <ttuttle> i don't think so. it just is :)
Nov 20 22:18:13 <cmonex> er not over usb
Nov 20 22:18:13 <cmonex> just over sd
Nov 20 22:18:15 <cmonex> it can see files named DREAIMG.NBH
Nov 20 22:18:30 <cmonex> (just must be in right format i guess :P )
Nov 20 22:18:31 <RyeBrye> now if only we could find such a NBH file
Nov 20 22:18:31 <ttuttle> yeah, but the production one checks signatures. mine doesn't.
Nov 20 22:18:39 * RyeBrye goes to Taiwan
Nov 20 22:18:39 <cmonex> ttuttle ok then your radio bootloader is not unlocked, bad luck there.
Nov 20 22:18:47 <swetland> the engineering bootloader allows flashing of *unsigned* boot.img, recovery.img, system, etc partitions via fastboot protocol on usb
Nov 20 22:18:47 <cmonex> but easy to test if it is
Nov 20 22:19:09 <RyeBrye> swetland - but the eng bootloader doesn't allow flashing of unsigned radio.img, right?
Nov 20 22:19:20 <ttuttle> swetland: feel free to shoot me if I'm saying too much.
Nov 20 22:19:21 <cmonex> in android run radiooptions 3 then connect to radio via minicom (on the g1 still), and try issuing some commands trhat are ovnly aailable to unlocked radio bootloader
Nov 20 22:19:31 <swetland> ryebrye: yup, that actually depends on the radio image
Nov 20 22:19:40 <cmonex> RyeBrye: it's not something the hboot controls.
Nov 20 22:19:45 <cmonex> the radio bootloader controls the signing requirement of radio.img
Nov 20 22:19:56 <swetland> cmonex: yup
Nov 20 22:19:56 <cmonex> well actually the security unlock flag is what controls this :)
Nov 20 22:20:23 <cmonex> one small bit somewhere in radio nand is what decides all :)
Nov 20 22:20:23 <RyeBrye> Is it possible that a phone would ever be released in the retail channel with the engineering bootloader still on it?
Nov 20 22:20:27 <swetland> as far as the radio bootloader, signing, flashing, security, etc. that's all HTC's dept
Nov 20 22:20:40 <cmonex> swetland: yes, i noticed it is totally standard htc radio bootloader
Nov 20 22:20:40 <RyeBrye> as in - not officially, but accidentally?
Nov 20 22:20:45 <cmonex> (when disasembling radio.img)
Nov 20 22:21:18 <swetland> cmonex: makes sense to me. might as well keep using what works for them
Nov 20 22:21:44 <cmonex> yeah :)
Nov 20 22:21:52 <jbq> woah, code re-use :)
Nov 20 22:21:53 <swetland> rye: I think it would be pretty unlikely for a tmo g1 to ship commercially with an eng bootloader
Nov 20 22:21:57 <RyeBrye> swetland - yeah, that's what I thought :)
Nov 20 22:21:57 <cmonex> jbq: very heavy code reuse in hboot too apparently :)
Nov 20 22:22:03 <cmonex> the shipped hboot can detect DREAIMG.NBH on SD
Nov 20 22:22:06 <cmonex> just like any other htc bootloader
Nov 20 22:22:32 <RyeBrye> cmonex - well - the name changes per phone, right?
Nov 20 22:22:47 <cmonex> of course
Nov 20 22:22:55 <cmonex> the first 4 chars are from the phone's modelid
Nov 20 22:23:07 <cmonex> for dream that's DREA
Nov 20 22:23:09 <cmonex> you can see DREA100 on tricolour screen yes?
Nov 20 22:23:15 <cmonex> that's also standard htc stuff, thats your modelid
Nov 20 22:23:20 <RyeBrye> swetland - I know of a person who got a retail G1 that has an engineering bootloader, I was just wondering how lucky he was :)
Nov 20 22:23:36 <cmonex> and the tricolour screen thing itself is again standard =)
Nov 20 22:23:40 <cmonex> yes, swetland: i talked to this guy and i couldnt believe it
Nov 20 22:23:57 <cmonex> he showed us photos of the eng hboot screen
Nov 20 22:24:15 <cmonex> he had a normal g1 then it died and tmobile changed it to another g1 and thats the special one
Nov 20 22:24:31 * RyeBrye wonders if he should pray his G1 dies and gets resurrected as an engineering device as well
Nov 20 22:24:31 <cmonex> lol
Nov 20 22:24:47 <cmonex> just dump the goddamn hboot off his :P
Nov 20 22:24:47 <jbq> a hammer can take care of the first part.
Nov 20 22:24:56 <RyeBrye> jbq - good thinking.
Nov 20 22:24:57 * RyeBrye reaches for hamer
Nov 20 22:26:02 <jbq> if only half of my prayers could have such easy solutions ;-)
Nov 20 22:26:55 <RyeBrye> jbq - for each prayer with complex solution, create new prayer with trivial solutions...  your wish would be granted! ;)
Nov 20 22:27:32 <jbq> RyeBrye: lol.
Nov 20 22:28:29 <eldenz> lol
Nov 20 22:30:16 <wastrel> i'm praying for fbreader to get fixed
Nov 20 22:30:35 <RyeBrye> yeah, that might be a while - is it oss?
Nov 20 22:30:48 <wastrel> gpl sortof
Nov 20 22:30:49 <RyeBrye> then.... stop waiting and start coding!
Nov 20 22:30:55 <RyeBrye> ;)
Nov 20 22:31:06 <wastrel> ok first i will learn java
Nov 20 22:31:07 <wastrel> talk to you in 6 months
Nov 20 22:32:40 <lasko_> knock knock
Nov 20 22:32:53 <dd94300> fadden: r u still here?
Nov 20 22:32:54 <RyeBrye> wastrel - I hear you can do it in 24 hours... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672316307/rye-20 ;)
Nov 20 22:33:27 <kRutOn>  nice affiliate code there
Nov 20 22:33:28 <RyeBrye> wastrel - or maybe 21 days: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CM4M/rye-20
Nov 20 22:33:45 <RyeBrye> I suppose you could combine the two and learn it twice in 21.8 days
Nov 20 22:34:21 <wastrel> i did download and build the source
Nov 20 22:34:45 <RyeBrye> kRutOn - yep, it does. So if he buys that $2.00 book I'd get $.08! :)
Nov 20 22:34:48 <wastrel> should put it in git and start hacking i suppose
Nov 20 22:35:07 <kRutOn> did you try pressing yourself against the source code and learning by osmosis? :-)
Nov 20 22:35:07 <wastrel> i can't possibly make it worse
Nov 20 22:35:25 <kRutOn> wastrel: oh! snap
Nov 20 22:35:39 <osmosis> yah
Nov 20 22:36:07 <wastrel> heh  i mean if it's in source control i can always roll back to status quo
Nov 20 22:36:45 <fadden> dd94300: whassup?
Nov 20 22:43:58 <dd94300> fadden: nothing much, i just wanted to thank you for ur help earlier........
Nov 20 22:44:10 <fadden> You get it working?
Nov 20 22:44:17 <dd94300> yeah
Nov 20 22:44:29 <fadden> Hooray!
Nov 20 22:44:32 <savid> I wonder if we'll ever be able to write apps in python
Nov 20 22:44:50 <lasko_> savid: that would be nice
Nov 20 22:44:50 <fadden> I wonder if we should ever write apps in python
Nov 20 22:45:05 * savid likes him some python
Nov 20 22:45:33 <fadden> I have concerns about the performance, but perhaps I'm misguided.
Nov 20 22:48:12 <mib_st7n6psx> would it be possible to dual boot windows mobile and android on a device?
Nov 20 22:57:23 <wastrel> haret i think has booted android yes?
Nov 20 22:57:34 <wastrel> i don't really pay attention but i think someone mentioned it
Nov 20 22:58:42 <grey-> mib_st7n6psx: I believe many people did that on other arm/windows mobile devices before the g1 was released.
Nov 20 22:58:47 <grey-> mib_st7n6psx: I'm not sure if anyone has bothered to do that on the g1.
Nov 20 22:58:49 <grey-> but I know people have worked on doing so.
Nov 20 23:11:59 <falstaff> Hello
Nov 20 23:12:12 <falstaff> I try to implement a wake on lan function in my application
Nov 20 23:13:02 <falstaff> I found an implementation for wol for java, which works on my laptop (even over wlan). Does anybody have any idea why this is not working under android?
Nov 20 23:13:05 <falstaff> this is my code: http://www.pastebin.ca/1263160
Nov 20 23:13:58 <mib_st7n6psx> i assumed the people that booted android on other devices had flashed the whole device so it could no longer boot windows mobile (until it was reflashed)
Nov 20 23:14:43 <romainguy_> falstaff: do you have the INTERNET permission?
Nov 20 23:15:02 <eldenz> /the/ falstaff?
Nov 20 23:15:59 <falstaff> romainguy_: yep
Nov 20 23:16:23 <falstaff> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.INTERNET" /> under the tag manifest
Nov 20 23:16:58 <falstaff> the falstaff? are there more than one? :-D
Nov 20 23:17:05 <eldenz> nope, weirdly you are from switzerland as well, i know someone whose nick is Falstaff from ch
Nov 20 23:17:37 <falstaff> eldenz: ah cool :-) now i know who is stealing my default login on every site :-D
Nov 20 23:18:29 <romainguy_> then I don't know
Nov 20 23:18:37 <romainguy_> are you trying over WiFi?
Nov 20 23:18:54 <eldenz> (on quakenet :) )
Nov 20 23:18:57 <andyross> You're sending the WoL packets *to* the laptop, right?  If you do it with the laptop on, do you see them arriving in tcpdump (or wireshark, etc..)
Nov 20 23:19:31 <raidfive> Does anyone know where the following file is in the git repo (or if it is even public): com.google.android.mms.pdu.PduPersister ?
Nov 20 23:19:31 <eldenz> hehe
Nov 20 23:20:23 <falstaff> romainguy_: yes wlan is defintly on...
Nov 20 23:21:27 <falstaff> andyross: i send it to my pc, which is not a laptop. Pc is on wire, and wol generaly works with this pc. I tried this java implementation on my laptop, which is connected over wlan => generally wol should work over wlan...
Nov 20 23:21:42 <falstaff> But from android, it doesnt seems to work...
Nov 20 23:22:42 <falstaff> Laptop =WLAN=> PC, works, Android =WLAN=> PC doesnt work
Nov 20 23:23:40 <andyross> yes, but does it work because you're not getting the packets to the desktop, or because you're sending the wrong packets?  Thus the question about tcpdump/wireshark on the target box.
Nov 20 23:24:20 <grey-> I think wireless wol is not ubiquitous.
Nov 20 23:24:25 <grey-> probably very chipset, driver, os dependent.
Nov 20 23:24:31 <falstaff> andyross: hm, i didn't tried that one... so you think wol packages should be visible on the target pc with wireshark when target pc is running?
Nov 20 23:24:56 <andyross> Why would they not be? :)
Nov 20 23:25:45 <falstaff> grey-: this is what i suspect too...
Nov 20 23:27:15 <grey-> there's definitely wake on lan, serial, irda.
Nov 20 23:27:17 <grey-> but wifi chipsets are pretty power hungry.
Nov 20 23:28:32 <elad> Hmm I should test the wattage of mine
Nov 20 23:28:49 <grey-> could certainly be useful.
Nov 20 23:29:06 <grey-> here's a proposal for use in mesh networks using a soekris: http://www2006.org/programme/files/xhtml/5506/5506-mishra/5506-mishra.html
Nov 20 23:29:06 <grey-> from 2006.
Nov 20 23:29:47 <mib_tywaxw> :(
Nov 20 23:30:17 <grey-> but it looks like some chipsets do have provisions that support it
Nov 20 23:30:17 <grey-> depending on firmware.
Nov 20 23:30:22 <grey-> and presumably android could be hacked in to support that feature if the chipset does.
Nov 20 23:31:13 <andyross> I think we're talking about different things here, though.  falstaff (I think) is trying to wake up a desktop box on a wired network from his phone.  Identical code (?) running on a laptop JVM via the same network the phone is on works successfully.  Am I right?
Nov 20 23:31:30 <falstaff> okey, i tried it: Wireshark on target machine, packages from laptop are visible, packages from emulator and g1 doesn't arrive...
Nov 20 23:32:27 <romainguy_> the emulator doesn't support UDP if I recall correctly
Nov 20 23:32:38 <falstaff> andyross: Identical code yes, via JVM via the same network, and the phone is on yes, wlan is connected...
Nov 20 23:33:17 <falstaff> romainguy_: yeah, i expected that it is not working in emulator....
Nov 20 23:33:48 <DarkriftX> i wish someone would work on porting android to an axim x51
Nov 20 23:33:56 <falstaff> But on the hardware.... :-/
Nov 20 23:34:05 <DarkriftX> im tired of winmo
Nov 20 23:34:16 <falstaff> can i do something like ifconfig on android?
Nov 20 23:35:46 <spikebike> yeah it's called...
Nov 20 23:35:46 <spikebike> ifconfig
Nov 20 23:36:01 <falstaff> spikebike: but i need root or what?
Nov 20 23:36:02 <fadden> "adb shell ifconfig lo"
Nov 20 23:36:09 <falstaff> ah
Nov 20 23:37:49 <falstaff> and which one is wlan? wlan0, eth0, ath0 doesnt work
Nov 20 23:38:42 <fadden> Might be rmnet0
Nov 20 23:39:17 <falstaff> fadden: yes this exists, but i've another ip there than i have in my wlan...
Nov 20 23:39:35 <falstaff> fadden: is this somehow nat-ed locally??
Nov 20 23:40:27 <fadden> I don't know.  I was digging through /proc to try to answer the "which interface" question for myself.
Nov 20 23:41:50 <fadden> Looks like tiwlan0 gets added when WiFi is enabled.
Nov 20 23:42:06 <fadden> (see e.g. /proc/sys/net/ipv4/neigh)
Nov 20 23:42:54 <falstaff> yeah this works... ok, android is definitly in the right lan, same network...
Nov 20 23:45:36 <falstaff> So whats the conclusion? Where can i get further help?
Nov 20 23:46:05 <fadden> On?
Nov 20 23:47:05 <falstaff> that this wake on lan doesnt works...
Nov 20 23:47:39 <falstaff> Should i post to android-internals, because it could be a driver problem?
Nov 20 23:47:50 <fadden> Well, either you can send packets to the machine or you can't.  Can you establish a TCP connection to the machine?
Nov 20 23:47:54 <plusminus_> anyone usign VeeCheck in his app ?
Nov 20 23:48:57 <falstaff> fadden, yes this works
Nov 20 23:49:14 <falstaff> i connect through tcp to that machine
Nov 20 23:49:22 <fadden> And that doesn't wake the machine?
Nov 20 23:49:27 <falstaff> but wol doesnt arrive
Nov 20 23:49:40 <falstaff> no
Nov 20 23:49:48 <falstaff> for wol you need specifig packages
Nov 20 23:49:50 <falstaff> see http://www.pastebin.ca/1263160
Nov 20 23:49:56 <falstaff> this is my code
Nov 20 23:51:00 <fadden> Do you know if you can exchange UDP traffic with the target machine?
Nov 20 23:51:17 <falstaff> fadden, no, i didn't tried this...
Nov 20 23:52:12 <falstaff> but udp should work generally, its used for dns... i've no internal/desktop firewall or something like this...
Nov 20 23:53:22 <falstaff> I think this is a restriction of the network driver in android....
Nov 20 23:54:09 <falstaff> When you look at the code, there is a DatagramPacket and DatagramSocket needed, which maybe is not (fully) supported
Nov 20 23:55:08 <andyross> Destination address is 192.168.240.255 -- is the broadcast address set up properly on the phone interface?
Nov 20 23:56:05 <falstaff> ifconfig says only this:
Nov 20 23:56:05 <falstaff> tiwlan0: ip 192.168.240.176 mask 255.255.255.0 flags [up broadcast running multicast]
Nov 20 23:56:28 <falstaff> but with mask, broadcast should be calculated correctly...
Nov 20 23:58:18 <andyross> That's not automatic though.  Inverting the netmask to get the broadcast address is only a convention.
Nov 20 23:59:36 <andyross> I'm not in a wlan right now, but I see (using busybox's ifconfig):
Nov 20 23:59:36 <andyross> rmnet0    Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr 92:CA:D5:F1:9A:A6
Nov 20 23:59:36 <andyross>           inet addr:25.97.53.78  Bcast:25.97.53.79  Mask:255.255.255.252
Nov 20 23:59:36 <andyross> [...]
Nov 21 00:02:11 <falstaff> andyross: how can i use busybox's ifconfig? My phone isn't jailbreaked or something like that, so i've no root access... Wlan is configured over the original andorid tool...
Nov 21 00:02:28 <DarkriftX> you cannot
Nov 21 00:02:50 <orci> hi, why would system_server take more than 50% of the cpu time?
Nov 21 00:02:50 <DarkriftX> you want busybox, get root
Nov 21 00:03:17 <falstaff> But to conclude, it seems that its a problem of the os/wlan driver, right?
Nov 21 00:03:28 <falstaff> or wlan configuration...
Nov 21 00:03:50 <andyross> Well, you can run busybox without root.  I presume raw sockets are allowed to the shell user.  But root is awfully useful regardless, e.g. the ability to watch a tcpdump of outbound traffic in this case.
Nov 21 00:03:59 <DarkriftX> how do you run busybox without root?
Nov 21 00:04:40 <DarkriftX> you cant copy it to the device, and you cant execute from the card
Nov 21 00:04:40 <andyross> Um... "/path/to/busybox" :)
Nov 21 00:04:49 <andyross> Put it in /sqlite_stmt_journals
Nov 21 00:05:02 <andyross> Or write it to /data/data/<pkg> from an application .apk
Nov 21 00:05:52 <DarkriftX> wouldnt that essentially give you root?
Nov 21 00:06:00 <DarkriftX> busybox has su, and no passwords
Nov 21 00:06:17 <andyross> No, just allow you to run binaries.  Busybox isn't a suid binary, it's just a tool.
Nov 21 00:06:30 <DarkriftX> and running "busybox su" from there would do what?
Nov 21 00:06:34 <andyross> Nothing meaningful
Nov 21 00:06:34 <orci> my android system has lost great deal of responsiveness, my friend told me that she called me two times when I was in a very high coverage area however my phone even did not ring
Nov 21 00:07:10 <falstaff> andyross: Sorry, im very interessted doing this, but I don't have the time atm, im not (yet) that familiar with android...
Nov 21 00:07:10 <andyross> But "busybox ifconfig" would tell you about the network interfaces on the system, which was the question at hand.
Nov 21 00:07:11 <orci> system_server is serving something really bad
Nov 21 00:08:15 <falstaff> Im gonna send an email to the android-internals mailing list, maybe somebody has an idea right of the hand or time to figure out the problem...
Nov 21 00:08:21 <fadden> andyross, falstaff: tiwlan0: ip 192.168.145.174 mask 255.255.254.0 bcast 192.168.145.255 flags [up broadcast running multicast]
Nov 21 00:08:37 <falstaff> fadden: hmm
Nov 21 00:08:43 <fadden> (I added SIOCGIFBRDADDR to the toolbox ifconfig.c)
Nov 21 00:08:43 <DarkriftX> ooh, we just got hit by a baby botnet
Nov 21 00:08:44 <DarkriftX> lol
Nov 21 00:09:32 <falstaff> fadden: conclusion? Broadcast should be calculated right by android?
Nov 21 00:09:47 <orci> can system_server get bloated when too many apps are installed?
Nov 21 00:09:51 <fadden> DarkriftX: /data/local can be written to by the shell
Nov 21 00:10:28 <andyross> OK, so much for my broadcast theory :(
Nov 21 00:10:41 <DarkriftX> cool
Nov 21 00:10:41 <fadden> falstaff: I don't know.  I'm just poking at it.
Nov 21 00:10:46 <andyross> Maybe it's a driver-level thing?  Broadcast IPs don't turn into broadcast frames on the ethernet side?
Nov 21 00:11:10 * andyross is at the limit of his net-fu here.
Nov 21 00:12:05 <fadden> I think at this point you'd want to create a pair of applications (one for the device, one for the target machine) that fling packets around.  When you have an example that doesn't work but should, file a bug.
Nov 21 00:12:15 <fadden> If you never get an example that doesn't work, then the problem lies elsewhere.
Nov 21 00:12:58 <falstaff> fadden: im gonna do this, but first i try it with the email to the mailing list!
Nov 21 00:13:09 <falstaff> Thanks to all, i've to go to bed, cya!
Nov 21 00:16:18 <orci> is it common to have over 50% system_server process?
Nov 21 00:16:19 <orci> cpu
Nov 21 00:16:31 <andyross> Not for me, and I've spent a while looking at top doing benchmarking.
Nov 21 00:17:17 <fadden> If you're drawing a lot it can spike.
Nov 21 00:17:42 <romainguy_> fadden: in the system process?
Nov 21 00:17:52 <orci> it is so bad that even when i check the drawer of applications they do not scroll smoothly
Nov 21 00:18:33 <fadden> romainguy_: I had a specific example in mind... what was it...
Nov 21 00:18:34 <romainguy_> the status bar? :)
Nov 21 00:19:06 <orci> do you have this problem of phone is not ringing sometimes?
Nov 21 00:19:54 <orci> this is the second time I got this
Nov 21 00:20:04 <orci> I was playing with an app probably when my friend called me and it did not ring
Nov 21 00:20:23 <orci> can't I expect that much stability? at least on phone/dialer application?
Nov 21 00:20:33 <fadden> I can't find it.  List-flinging topped out at 10% on my device.
Nov 21 00:20:59 <romainguy_> fadden: the only things that should happen in system_server is some of the events dispatching
Nov 21 00:21:14 <romainguy_> drawing should not affect its CPU usage
Nov 21 00:21:29 <romainguy_> (or at least not that much, I don't know what SurfaceFlinger & co. are doing in there)
Nov 21 00:21:58 <fadden> I thought I had something that caused lots of *Flinger interaction, but I can't remember what.
Nov 21 01:30:09 <ecubuntu> hey guys any body know how can i change my gmail acoount on my G1?
Nov 21 01:30:13 <ttuttle> ecubuntu: factory reset, I think.
Nov 21 01:31:00 <ecubuntu> ok if i do factory reser i will lost all my sms? ttuttle
Nov 21 01:31:08 <mikechan> yes you will
Nov 21 01:31:30 <mikechan> it will be the same as when you pulled it out of the box
Nov 21 01:31:40 <bheight> lol
Nov 21 01:31:53 <ecubuntu> ok, soo how can i backup my sms?
Nov 21 01:32:41 <mikechan> you don't
Nov 21 01:32:49 <ecubuntu> :-/
Nov 21 01:32:49 <mikechan> :(
Nov 21 01:33:42 <ecubuntu> IS not other way ?
Nov 21 01:34:06 <Leeds> there was a theory posted a few days ago that anycut(s?) would allow you to create a link to the setup wizard, which could be rerun - to change your google settings - without doing a full reset
Nov 21 01:34:07 <mikechan> do you have adb?
Nov 21 01:34:15 <ttuttle> Leeds: Probably true.
Nov 21 01:34:17 <Leeds> I don't know if it's true, I don't know if it works, and I don't know what problems it might cause in future
Nov 21 01:34:29 <mikechan> you might be able to pull the sqlite db off via adb
Nov 21 01:34:29 <mikechan> then push it back
Nov 21 01:34:29 <ttuttle> It won't cause problems.
Nov 21 01:34:33 <ttuttle> I've run Setup Wizard multiple times before.
Nov 21 01:34:41 <mikechan> I don't know if that will work
Nov 21 01:34:42 <ttuttle> All it does it set your account info.
Nov 21 01:34:47 <ttuttle> If you can make a shortcut to it, it will probably work.
Nov 21 01:35:31 <ecubuntu> OK
Nov 21 01:36:38 <DJTachyon> man i am still baffled at how good this video came out on the phone
Nov 21 01:37:19 <Gary|thinkpad> After trying to tether with iptables, I can't turn off wifi
Nov 21 01:37:28 <Gary|thinkpad> trying to enable it through the UI and it won't work
Nov 21 01:38:03 <Leeds> oops!
Nov 21 01:38:17 <Gary|thinkpad> # rmmod wlan
Nov 21 01:38:17 <Gary|thinkpad> rmmod: delete_module 'wlan' failed (errno 11)
Nov 21 01:38:30 <Leeds> is the interface still up?
Nov 21 01:39:06 <Gary|thinkpad> I dunno? what interface
Nov 21 01:39:22 <Leeds> ah... so you don't actually know Linux networking then?
Nov 21 01:39:29 <Gary|thinkpad> Not really :P
Nov 21 01:39:40 <Leeds> ifconfig
Nov 21 01:39:44 <Leeds> not the built-in one, a busybox one
Nov 21 01:39:49 <Gary|thinkpad> don't have busybox installed D:
Nov 21 01:40:02 <Leeds> then install it
Nov 21 01:40:02 <Gary|thinkpad> baw I'll just restart the phone for now. was talking on it though :/
Nov 21 01:40:08 <Leeds> you can't remove a module from the kernel while it's still in use
Nov 21 01:40:26 <Gary|thinkpad> how would I stop it then
Nov 21 01:41:59 <Leeds> I can't remember what the wlan interface is called... but "ifconfig <interfacename> down" would be a start
Nov 21 01:42:10 <Gary135791> tried it
Nov 21 01:42:13 <Leeds> there could be other things holding it open, too
Nov 21 01:42:37 <Gary|thinkpad> # ifconfig tiwlan0 down
Nov 21 01:42:37 <Gary|thinkpad> # rmmod wlan
Nov 21 01:42:37 <Gary|thinkpad> rmmod: delete_module 'wlan' failed (errno 11)
Nov 21 01:44:47 <Leeds> and errno 11 is?
Nov 21 01:45:11 <Gary|thinkpad> Unsure
Nov 21 01:45:33 <Leeds> nope, try again
Nov 21 01:45:54 <skbohra> Hi folks
Nov 21 01:46:03 <Leeds> morning skbohra
Nov 21 01:46:21 <skbohra> Leeds: good morning
Nov 21 01:46:22 <Gary|thinkpad> Leeds: ?
Nov 21 01:46:27 <Leeds> Gary|thinkpad: try again
Nov 21 01:47:01 <Leeds> #define EAGAIN    11  /* Try again */
Nov 21 01:47:01 <Leeds> :-)
Nov 21 01:47:04 <DJTachyon> anybody want a Settings Profile for the Super Video Encoder for great G1 videos?
Nov 21 01:47:26 <Leeds> DJTachyon: I'd like to convert it into an ffmpeg and/or mencoder command-line...
Nov 21 01:47:58 <Gary|thinkpad> Leeds: Not doing anything ;)
Nov 21 01:48:36 <Leeds> Gary|thinkpad: in effect, that means 'temporary error, try again later' with an implication of 'when something has changed to make the error go away'
Nov 21 01:48:46 <Gary|thinkpad> lol
Nov 21 01:49:12 <DJTachyon> hey leeds
Nov 21 01:49:18 <DJTachyon> you will probably have the best luck with this: http://www.videolan.org/developers/x264.html
Nov 21 01:49:55 <Leeds> yes, I know s264 - both ffmpeg and mencoder use it
Nov 21 01:49:55 <Leeds> er, x264 :-)
Nov 21 01:50:43 <Leeds> it's almost 10am, and I'm the only one in the office, out of 7/8 staff
Nov 21 01:51:17 <Leeds> I'm starting to wonder if it's a day off and nobody told me...
Nov 21 01:51:52 <DJTachyon> well fallout 3 time
Nov 21 01:51:57 <SanMehat> DJTachyon: dude the webpage for super makes it sound like spyware
Nov 21 01:51:57 <SanMehat> hehe
Nov 21 01:53:04 <Leeds> you mean SUPER (R)?
Nov 21 01:53:19 <brocktice> On that note, anyone been able to get a movie-length mp4 to play on the G1?
Nov 21 01:54:20 <Leeds> er, SUPER (C)
Nov 21 01:54:20 <brocktice> I can get shorter videos to play no problem, but it seems to be choking on larger files. Throws out of memory errors in logcat.
Nov 21 01:55:19 <Leeds> might depend on what you play them with?
Nov 21 01:55:24 <brocktice> I've tried with 3 of the 5 players on the Market
Nov 21 01:55:48 <DJTachyon> SanMeHat hehehe
Nov 21 01:55:51 <DJTachyon> yeah
Nov 21 01:55:55 <DJTachyon> I have it on my website if you want it
Nov 21 01:55:56 <DJTachyon> :P
Nov 21 01:56:51 <DJTachyon> http://www.djtachyon.com/android/Super.G1.Video.Profile.zip
Nov 21 01:56:51 <brocktice> I've tried with 3 of the 5 players on the Market
Nov 21 01:56:52 <brocktice> oops
Nov 21 01:57:03 <brocktice> E/MediaPlayer(14491): Unable to to create media player
Nov 21 01:57:03 <brocktice> W/VideoView(14491): Unable to open content: content://media/external/video/media/8
Nov 21 01:57:04 <DJTachyon> did you actually find the download? or you want a link to mine?
Nov 21 01:57:05 <brocktice> E/MediaPlayer(14491): Unable to to create media player
Nov 21 01:57:15 <Gary|thinkpad> erm
Nov 21 01:57:16 <brocktice> W/VideoView(14491): Unable to open content: content://media/external/video/media/8
Nov 21 01:57:52 <Gary|thinkpad> what was that icon on my notification bar, it looked like a circle with arrows
Nov 21 01:57:53 <brocktice> There we go, I think it's something in the MediaPlayer built into android
Nov 21 01:58:28 <brocktice> Gary|thinkpad, that's the Google sync notification
Nov 21 01:58:28 <Gary|thinkpad> ahh
Nov 21 01:58:32 <Gary|thinkpad> never seen it before
Nov 21 01:58:33 <brocktice> yeah fortunately it's fast and infrequent
Nov 21 02:00:16 <brocktice> I assume it's monochrome?
Nov 21 02:00:17 <brocktice> Because OI Updater or whatever it's called has blue arrows in a circle
Nov 21 02:00:17 <DJTachyon> http://www.djtachyon.com/android/SUPERsetup.exe
Nov 21 02:00:18 <DJTachyon> :P
Nov 21 02:00:18 <brocktice> The Mario simulator puts a toadstool up there when it has updates.
Nov 21 02:00:22 <Leeds> cute
Nov 21 02:00:31 <Gary|thinkpad> mario simulator?
Nov 21 02:01:21 <brocktice> It makes mario jumping noises when you hold the phone and jump
Nov 21 02:01:21 <brocktice> Optionally plays the mario theme music
Nov 21 02:02:00 <Gary|thinkpad> lol
Nov 21 02:02:17 <DJTachyon> hehehe
Nov 21 02:02:33 <DJTachyon> and if you hold the screen it makes the coin sound
Nov 21 02:02:35 <brocktice> indeed
Nov 21 02:05:05 <Leeds> 10am and still nobody else here - why didn't I go back to bed for a couple of hours?
Nov 21 02:05:44 <brocktice> Leeds, in the words of a  teacher I once had -- "Assume the position (head down on folded arms), put your head down, sleep."
Nov 21 02:05:52 <brocktice> Err folded arms = position
Nov 21 02:05:57 <brocktice> otherwise the second step is redundant
Nov 21 02:05:57 <Leeds> you went to an English boy's school, didn't you?
Nov 21 02:06:18 <brocktice> No that was at motorboating merit badge class at summer camp. :)
Nov 21 02:06:19 <brocktice> A few years later when I was a counselor there I understood why.
Nov 21 02:06:19 <brocktice> (He was also doing those steps).
Nov 21 02:06:38 <brocktice> He was surely up all night partying with the other counselors.
Nov 21 02:18:15 * michaelnovakjr__ yawns
Nov 21 02:26:13 <elad> anyone wanna buy a used macbook pro
Nov 21 02:26:13 <elad> gonna put it up on ebay soon
Nov 21 02:27:11 <laura--> Hey.. I just d/l'd the AlarmClock source with Git, but it seems to have some outdated source references when I load it in Eclipse.  Why might that be?
Nov 21 02:27:13 <laura--> For example, there's an "import android.os.ServiceManager" that I don't believe is valid anymore
Nov 21 02:27:30 <romainguy_> it must be, the tree compiles
Nov 21 02:27:32 <romainguy_> but you can probably not compile this app with the SDK
Nov 21 02:27:32 <laura--> Ahhhhhhhhhhh!
Nov 21 02:27:32 <laura--> That must be it
Nov 21 02:27:36 <Leeds> why not?
Nov 21 02:27:37 <romainguy_> the Eclipse plugin doesn't work with the git tree
Nov 21 02:27:38 <jbq> Yup. Only a handful of system apps can currently be compiled with the SDK.
Nov 21 02:27:58 <laura--> Oh, RomainGuy.. great posts on AndroidGuys.com, btw!
Nov 21 02:28:14 <laura--> Gotcha, now it makes sense
Nov 21 02:38:32 <Leeds> hmm... had never heard of androidguys.com - and it's showing a php error now
Nov 21 02:39:50 <unix_infidel> laura--: URL?
Nov 21 02:40:37 <laura--> http://androidguys.com/?p=635
Nov 21 02:41:12 <laura--> You guys all work for Google, or just some people that like digging into the OS (apparently without even the help of eclipse)
Nov 21 02:41:13 * jbq is a googler
Nov 21 02:41:32 <Hiro2> jbq: does that mean work for google or just use google?
Nov 21 02:41:38 <jbq> work for google
Nov 21 02:42:01 <Hiro2> jbq: can I PM?
Nov 21 02:42:12 <d0netsFN> i work for google
Nov 21 02:42:33 <jbq> Hiro2: sure
Nov 21 02:42:38 <Hiro2> jbq d0nets, do you know eachother?
Nov 21 02:42:40 <d0netsFN> im the lead custodial project manager
Nov 21 02:42:48 <d0netsFN> nah im jk hiro2
Nov 21 02:43:12 <d0netsFN> im still in school
Nov 21 02:43:21 <d0netsFN> i wish i worked for google
Nov 21 02:43:21 <Hiro2> Custudial project manager
Nov 21 02:43:21 <Hiro2> well put :D
Nov 21 02:43:30 <d0netsFN> lol
Nov 21 02:43:47 <laura--> So something I don't get.. why would the SDK not compile some of the Android projects?  Like the AlarmClock app?
Nov 21 02:43:47 <romainguy_> laura--: there are several google employees on this channel (including jbq, swetland, jasonchen, myself, etc.)
Nov 21 02:43:51 * Leeds uses google
Nov 21 02:44:08 <romainguy_> laura--: because they use APIs that we didn't have time to finish and make public
Nov 21 02:44:12 <romainguy_> so these APIs are not part of the SDK
Nov 21 02:44:21 <laura--> Okay, now I got it for real :)
Nov 21 02:44:31 <d0netsFN> romainguy will there ever be a javax.sound?
Nov 21 02:44:35 <romainguy> I don't know
Nov 21 02:44:42 <romainguy> I'd be surprised though
Nov 21 02:44:46 <romainguy> Android is not Java SE
Nov 21 02:45:08 <Leeds> but it's not ME either
Nov 21 02:45:26 <andyross> Java's media APIs are horrifically overdesigned, FWIW.
Nov 21 02:45:26 <romainguy_> that wasn't my point Leeds
Nov 21 02:45:34 <romainguy_> my point is not about the capabilities, but about the API themselves
Nov 21 02:45:34 <ttuttle> Android is not any Java edition.
Nov 21 02:45:43 <d0netsFN> well from what i have read the android media AP is the opposite
Nov 21 02:45:43 <shackan> argh, too many romainguys
Nov 21 02:45:43 <d0netsFN> API
Nov 21 02:46:17 <ttuttle> one for each monitor?
Nov 21 02:46:52 <romainguy_> one for each computer, I'm surprised there are only two actually :)
Nov 21 02:46:52 <jbq> The question is whether someone will be willing to say "I'll personally make sure that this API continues working forever in the future"
Nov 21 02:46:56 <ttuttle> and we know google gives developers enough monitors to surround them.
Nov 21 02:47:13 <romainguy_> ttuttle: but I work from home today and I have only one monitor for two computers :)
Nov 21 02:47:13 <ttuttle> :(
Nov 21 02:47:14 <d0netsFN> romainguy_ what OS do you use
Nov 21 02:47:14 <romainguy_> Mac OS X
Nov 21 02:47:14 <ttuttle> get google to buy you a 42" plasma tv for coding ;)
Nov 21 02:47:22 * d0netsFN gags
Nov 21 02:47:22 <Leeds> jbq: actually, if I can ask, are there plans for what APIs may or may not be added and/or supported in future?
Nov 21 02:47:22 <d0netsFN> oh
Nov 21 02:47:22 <Disconnect> ok i officially hate the emulator. cuz my app doesn't crash there. :(
Nov 21 02:47:31 <Leeds> jbq: not asking what they are :-)
Nov 21 02:47:40 * andyross spent some time writing code on his 46" TV when he bought it.  Not as great as you'd think, actually -- my eyes just didn't like focusing that far away for that long, I guess.
Nov 21 02:47:45 <d0netsFN> andyross
Nov 21 02:48:02 <d0netsFN> what resolutionm
Nov 21 02:48:02 <romainguy_> andyross: I never though it'd be a good idea actually :)
Nov 21 02:48:11 <romainguy_> +t
Nov 21 02:48:31 * andyross spends almost all his time these days on a 15.4" 1920x1200 laptop.  Once you get used to it, it's great.
Nov 21 02:48:31 <jbq> Leeds: everything that makes sense and that someone will support.
Nov 21 02:48:52 <romainguy> andyross: I tried, it killed my eyes
Nov 21 02:49:03 <d0netsFN> http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=i-inc+28%22&btnG=Search+Products&show=dd&cid=11961977088286877329#ps-sellers
Nov 21 02:49:04 <d0netsFN> i want that
Nov 21 02:49:06 <Leeds> jbq: no, what I mean is... are the plans for that sort of thing, ongoing, past 1.0?
Nov 21 02:49:18 <unix_infidel> andyross: heh, which laptop (obviously not a MBP)
Nov 21 02:49:27 <andyross> It's a Dell M65.  Sadly they don't make this model (with the trackpoint) any more.
Nov 21 02:49:42 <jbq> Leeds: sure: http://source.android.com/roadmap
Nov 21 02:49:42 <d0netsFN> its a 1920X1200 28" lcd
Nov 21 02:50:08 <unix_infidel> andyross: there are comparable Thinkpads.
Nov 21 02:50:08 <Leeds> I have the same 19inch monitor at home and work (I bought two a couple of years back, brought one in) and it suits me well
Nov 21 02:50:08 <d0netsFN> for around 350-400
Nov 21 02:50:08 <Disconnect> andyross: as i understand it, the big problem with coding on a tv (etc) is the constant depth change from far to near (glance at kb, look down to reach for mouse, etc etc.)
Nov 21 02:50:18 <Leeds> jbq: yeah, I meant more detailed than that :-)
Nov 21 02:51:01 <andyross> Heh, this gets us back to the emacs flame war.  But I don't actually *look* at my keyboard or mouse.  But yeah, there's definitely something weird in the optics of doing fine work on a TV-sized screen.  Gaming was fantastic, obvoiusly.
Nov 21 02:51:01 <jbq> Leeds: and as android continues to become an open-source project the plans for individual APIs will be more detailed and more visible in real-time.
Nov 21 02:51:41 <Disconnect> andyross: you never glance at the mouse or kb? i'm not talking about not touchtyping, i'm talking about reaching for the mouse etc. but whatever. :)
Nov 21 02:51:54 <Leeds> jbq: fairy nuff
Nov 21 02:51:56 <unix_infidel> http://flickr.com/photos/bwa32/sets/72157607284828899/
Nov 21 02:53:27 <andyross> Honestly, no.  Or rather very rarely when I need to key something using a function key, or if I've misplaced the mouse.  But when bouncing between the editor and a terminal, never.
Nov 21 02:54:39 <Leeds> I suspect there's a little bit of automatic brain work going on - you don't need to *look* at the mouse, as long as you can see it sometimes
Nov 21 02:55:26 <jbq> Leeds: once things become more open-source, it'll be easier to talk about the current state of the development tree without making forward-looking statements.
Nov 21 02:55:35 <Leeds> jbq: as I said, I wasn't asking *what* the plans were, just if there *are* plans - I'll drop it now :-)
Nov 21 02:55:52 <jbq> no prob :-)
Nov 21 02:56:01 <Leeds> unix_infidel: that's insane
Nov 21 02:56:09 <Disconnect> unix_infidel: my old setup (2001ish) was link.sigkill.net/MC/dsc00450.jpg and dsc00451.jpg
Nov 21 02:56:41 <Leeds> incidentally, I don't suppose there's anyone here who has (or has played with) a UK G1?
Nov 21 02:56:42 <unix_infidel> Leeds: no, this is insane.  http://www.stefandidak.com/office/
Nov 21 02:57:01 <Disconnect> forgive the windows laptop in 450, it was the only broadband available (one-way sat, it sucked a lot)
Nov 21 02:57:24 <Leeds> that's very insane
Nov 21 02:57:50 <Leeds> anyway, just wondering if anyone knows a way to turn off the US-style phone number handling on a US G1?  I'm not in the US, phone numbers don't look like that here, and it's quite confusing
Nov 21 02:58:03 <laura--> Okay, stupid question... some of the AlarmClock source (DigitalClock.java) refers to a variable called "mContext".. but it isn't defined anywhere inside of the code.  Do all of the packages compile?
Nov 21 02:58:43 <Leeds> laura--: didn't you see the comments above about packages which would compile in the full source tree, but not in the SDK?
Nov 21 02:58:43 <d0netsFN> lol unix infidel, i want to hug that workstation
Nov 21 02:58:56 * andyross spent the last three years with a chinese-market A780 that didn't do any punctuation of phone numbers at all.  I don't know why people don't just standardize on that.
Nov 21 02:59:11 <laura--> Leeds: I did.  But it looks like a typo.. it's not like the other instances where a package isn't ehre
Nov 21 02:59:36 <Leeds> andyross: I'm (sort of) in China :-)
Nov 21 02:59:37 * andyross is in Portland.  But he bought a phone from eBay.
Nov 21 02:59:48 <d0netsFN> me too
Nov 21 02:59:49 * d0netsFN whips out his g1 and turns on streetview
Nov 21 02:59:52 <d0netsFN> im sorta in china
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 21 02:59:57 2008