**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 05 02:59:58 2008
Dec 05 03:00:40 <Disconnect> right. thats why i'm not going to continue this conversation. you insist on explaining the painfully obvious as if it was brand new.
Dec 05 03:01:43 <grey-> Disconnect: fair enough.  That said, I would tend to agree with you about it reinventing the wheel as well.
Dec 05 03:02:10 <grey-> but they have their 'reasons'
Dec 05 03:02:13 <Disconnect> also see toolkit vs busybox. dalvik vs uclibc.
Dec 05 03:02:17 <Disconnect> er not dalvic sorry. bionic
Dec 05 03:03:11 <grey-> I'll look.
Dec 05 03:05:37 <grey-> Disconnect: interesting... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2yWDvcWu6I
Dec 05 03:06:25 <Disconnect> ooh its a zaurus
Dec 05 03:06:37 <grey-> yeah that video is all kindsa weird.
Dec 05 03:06:49 <grey-> but neat.
Dec 05 03:06:54 <Disconnect> sweet find
Dec 05 03:07:12 <Disconnect> use selinux, chuck out 80% of the mess
Dec 05 03:07:14 <grey-> you mentioning SElinux again made me wonder if someone had tried to use it.
Dec 05 03:07:26 <grey-> apparently, they have. ;)
Dec 05 03:07:40 <grey-> herm.
Dec 05 03:08:02 * grey- gets the feeling he should shift some of his android news info to some more generic things than just the rss feeds of known sites.
Dec 05 03:08:59 <Disconnect> that would have shut hacking down in a flash. "we got root... but we can't flash. or read app data files. or make net connections (ahem tethering) or.. etc."
Dec 05 03:09:08 <grey-> hehe.
Dec 05 03:09:34 <grey-> I would still argue that giving users local root isn't a bad thing if done correctly.
Dec 05 03:09:41 <grey-> but chances are most users don't need it.
Dec 05 03:10:29 <Disconnect> in the standard user model it destroys security. bear in mind that google's idea of security is not "you are protected from others" but more "the platform is protected from everyone, including you"
Dec 05 03:11:03 <grey-> it would be nice to at least have some sort of toggle under the developer settings though. like under Settings -> Application -> Development.
Dec 05 03:11:21 <JesusFreke> imo, the best way would just be to let adb run as root
Dec 05 03:11:32 <grey-> JesusFreke: like in the emu?
Dec 05 03:11:48 <grey-> that'd be fine too I s'pose.
Dec 05 03:12:01 <grey-> developers/geeks still get their toys.
Dec 05 03:12:10 <grey-> average joes never know or care.
Dec 05 03:12:12 <JesusFreke> it wouldn't affect the existing security setup, because there would be no way for apps on the phone to get root through adb
Dec 05 03:12:24 <JesusFreke> and would let us have our toys, as you say :)
Dec 05 03:12:59 <Disconnect> JesusFreke: it trashes existing security. remember, one of the guarantees is that nothing (NOTHING) can read/write data other than the app
Dec 05 03:13:23 <JesusFreke> that's already a bogus guarantee
Dec 05 03:13:26 <grey-> *nod*
Dec 05 03:13:33 <JesusFreke> the system can read anything on the flash
Dec 05 03:14:43 <JesusFreke> enabling adb to run as root would *not* allow a non-system app to access another app's data
Dec 05 03:14:59 <JesusFreke> unless the user specifically did something stupid, like put an su command on their phone :D
Dec 05 03:15:04 <JesusFreke> but then it's the user's problem
Dec 05 03:16:03 <grey-> now now, you have to babysit the users.
Dec 05 03:17:17 <JesusFreke> and if they're worried that allowing root access would cause more bricked phones, then put a better bootloader on there so we can fix our own mistakes.
Dec 05 03:17:19 <joeyoh> was bluez formerly in the sdk and got removed?
Dec 05 03:17:52 <JesusFreke> yeah, I believe so joeyoh. I don't know the details though, I haven't looked at the prior versions of the sdk
Dec 05 03:18:57 <grey-> joeyoh: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/08/some-information-on-apis-removed-in.html
Dec 05 03:19:36 <joeyoh> thx
Dec 05 03:19:51 <grey-> np
Dec 05 03:20:27 <grey-> the xmpp/jabber thing they'd discussed sounded pretty err... interesting.  Definitely a different use of messaging than I think most people would be acustomed to.
Dec 05 03:20:47 <joeyoh> i had this brainstorm about using BT to link android and arduino boards
Dec 05 03:20:53 <grey-> joeyoh: oh neat.
Dec 05 03:21:24 <joeyoh> since you can get bluetooth on arduinos pretty cheap
Dec 05 03:21:26 <grey-> well I think everyone is hoping bluetooth stuff will make it back out in a release that we can use with devices soon.
Dec 05 03:21:35 <grey-> but I don't work for google, so I can't say.
Dec 05 03:21:36 <joeyoh> basically to extend the sensors on android
Dec 05 03:21:47 <grey-> extend?
Dec 05 03:21:47 <joeyoh> yeah, looks like it isnt possible for now
Dec 05 03:21:49 <joeyoh> :-\
Dec 05 03:22:02 <joeyoh> yeah you can have all kinds of sensors on arduino
Dec 05 03:22:25 <grey-> oh oh
Dec 05 03:22:25 <grey-> I see.
Dec 05 03:22:32 <grey-> so like, talk bluetooth to an arduino
Dec 05 03:22:46 <joeyoh> yeah and have an app that sends data back and forth
Dec 05 03:22:48 <grey-> and be able to control it and whatever it's got as an extension?
Dec 05 03:22:53 <joeyoh> exactly
Dec 05 03:22:59 <grey-> that sounds pretty neat.
Dec 05 03:23:11 <JesusFreke> "I love it when you talk bluetooth to me baby"
Dec 05 03:23:16 <grey-> haha
Dec 05 03:23:31 <grey-> sadly, the 'toothing' stories were apparently all untrue. :(
Dec 05 03:23:58 <grey-> though I think as a concept, it'd be pretty neat.
Dec 05 03:24:03 <grey-> location-aware apps are awesome
Dec 05 03:24:15 <grey-> but something that is proximity-sensitive to what is in your environment at that given time?
Dec 05 03:24:18 <grey-> that would be awesome.
Dec 05 03:24:25 <grey-> err
Dec 05 03:24:29 <grey-> more than awesome?
Dec 05 03:24:31 <joeyoh> yeah
Dec 05 03:24:33 * grey- is running out of superlatives.
Dec 05 03:24:46 <joeyoh> there are many many possibilities
Dec 05 03:25:01 <grey-> JesusFreke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toothing [for a reference to toothing since I think most people never followed the hoax]
Dec 05 03:25:01 <JesusFreke> awesomer.
Dec 05 03:25:07 <grey-> awesomEST
Dec 05 03:26:03 <JesusFreke> yeah, I had never heard of that
Dec 05 03:26:07 <grey-> JesusFreke: actually on a totally different note... I was thinking, since your rc30 update is signed with the test keys... Conceivably couldn't tmobile push out their own no-root rc30 signed with those just as you signed yours with those?
Dec 05 03:26:09 <JesusFreke> interesting.. lol
Dec 05 03:26:18 <JesusFreke> not really
Dec 05 03:26:19 * grey- is doubting they will.
Dec 05 03:26:37 <JesusFreke> with the otacerts.zip file renamed, *no* OTA can be applied
Dec 05 03:26:44 <grey-> ah, heh.
Dec 05 03:27:02 <JesusFreke> my biggest worry is that they sneak something in in one of the updates
Dec 05 03:27:13 <grey-> mmm
Dec 05 03:27:21 <grey-> though, concievably...
Dec 05 03:27:31 <grey-> well maybe not.
Dec 05 03:27:36 <grey-> I haven't looked inside this thing
Dec 05 03:27:41 <grey-> is the flash in an exposed chip?
Dec 05 03:27:43 <grey-> or is it some SoC?
Dec 05 03:27:55 <JesusFreke> no idea what SoC means :)
Dec 05 03:28:01 <grey-> err system-on-chip
Dec 05 03:28:03 <JesusFreke> ah, k
Dec 05 03:28:09 <JesusFreke> I don't really know
Dec 05 03:28:10 <grey-> like integrated with the ARM or whatever.
Dec 05 03:28:12 <grey-> yeah I haven't looked.
Dec 05 03:28:15 <JesusFreke> *nod*. I gotcha
Dec 05 03:28:23 <grey-> if it were just a flash chip soldering on the pcb
Dec 05 03:28:28 <grey-> then conceivably one could desolder it.
Dec 05 03:28:35 <grey-> reflash it with rc29/whatever.
Dec 05 03:28:37 <grey-> and solder it back.
Dec 05 03:28:39 <JesusFreke> the ol' heat gun extration technique is not viable for most people though :)
Dec 05 03:28:43 <grey-> yeah.
Dec 05 03:28:47 <JesusFreke> (me included. lol)
Dec 05 03:28:50 <grey-> I certainly wouldn't want to deal with that pain in the ass.
Dec 05 03:29:02 <JesusFreke> someone posted a link about a shop in korea that does that for iphones
Dec 05 03:29:12 <grey-> but I could probably find an interested soul at the nearby hackerspace if need be.
Dec 05 03:29:29 <grey-> JesusFreke: yeah that was making the rounds the other day.
Dec 05 03:29:49 <grey-> that said, I wasn't expecting any hassles with the g1; it's supposed to be "open" right?
Dec 05 03:29:59 <JesusFreke> heh. You're not the first
Dec 05 03:30:38 <Disconnect> JesusFreke: fyi (was afk) i wasn't talking about a guarantee that "no other app" would read/modify data, but that -nothing- would read/modify it. and you can't enforce that with standard unlimited root account
Dec 05 03:31:09 <JesusFreke> nope, you can't.
Dec 05 03:31:21 <Disconnect> android says, flat out, if you save data on flash you don't have to worry about corruption or hostility other than through system failure
Dec 05 03:31:23 <JesusFreke> and I like that.
Dec 05 03:31:41 <grey-> Disconnect: well, there's always hardware hacking.  Unless they want to design devices with active zeroization if they detect they're being tampered with.  Which would be overkill for any consumer oriented product.
Dec 05 03:31:51 <JesusFreke> it's my freakin device. If I want to screw up an application's data, that should be my perogative
Dec 05 03:32:13 <grey-> JesusFreke: well, apparently these usb xfers are all about corrupting data. :(
Dec 05 03:32:13 <Disconnect> sure. but its not sold that way any more than your tv is
Dec 05 03:32:24 <Leeds> guys... note the point made by jbq a few days ago...
Dec 05 03:32:40 * jbq will need to scroll back to get some context
Dec 05 03:32:44 <Leeds> once you have pay-for apps, you need some sort of protection on the system to stop people copying them around
Dec 05 03:32:51 <Disconnect> yep
Dec 05 03:32:52 <grey-> Leeds: Ah...
Dec 05 03:32:54 <grey-> I see.
Dec 05 03:33:05 <grey-> that is a valid point.
Dec 05 03:33:27 <Leeds> that protection doesn't necessarily have to involve locking owners out of root - but that is currently one form of protection
Dec 05 03:33:28 <grey-> I would argue, there is no way to ensure that (see also: psp, xbox, etc.)
Dec 05 03:33:36 <grey-> however, with a subscription service (e.g. xbox live)
Dec 05 03:33:37 <JesusFreke> yeah, because there are absolutely no "pay-for" apps that are available on computers, where you do have total control :D
Dec 05 03:33:38 <Leeds> grey-: best effort...
Dec 05 03:33:41 <grey-> you could ban people with tampered devices.
Dec 05 03:33:54 <grey-> which seems to work well enough for games.
Dec 05 03:34:09 <grey-> but it will basically just ban them for that service.
Dec 05 03:34:18 <grey-> they will find other means to download and run them if they are so inclined.
Dec 05 03:34:20 <Disconnect> ..or you could secure it to begin with and not have to worry about it.
Dec 05 03:34:29 <grey-> yeah...
Dec 05 03:34:39 <Leeds> I am not arguing the point, just raising it
Dec 05 03:34:52 <grey-> call me a cynic, but I don't know of a system that's never been hacked.
Dec 05 03:34:53 <Disconnect> although i agree, there are tons of better answers that could have been implemented with the effort htat went into bionic, the user/group disaster and toolkit.
Dec 05 03:35:08 <grey-> not to say it's not worth trying.
Dec 05 03:35:38 <grey-> but I actually feel much more secure with local root/admin privileges and the ability to define what can and cannot run on a device I own, than if that's escrowed out to some third party.
Dec 05 03:35:51 <Disconnect> grey-: tivo switched to a system that requires hardware mods. that cut the hacks down to -way- under 1% of what they were before. (its no longer "pull the drive, update, boot" .. the bootloader is not in-system flashable, and the cert checks work. so you have to unsolder/flash/resolder the chip.)
Dec 05 03:35:55 <grey-> which can revoke my ability to use my device [that's the drm argument]
Dec 05 03:36:14 <grey-> Disconnect: interesting.
Dec 05 03:36:20 <grey-> I can't say I use a tivo, or have cable.
Dec 05 03:36:30 <Disconnect> the current security policy is a mess all around
Dec 05 03:36:40 <grey-> agreed.
Dec 05 03:36:53 <Disconnect> it trains the user to click yes whenever they want to install apps
Dec 05 03:37:00 <grey-> I think you can't play the open side and a closed side successfully.
Dec 05 03:37:07 <grey-> oh geeze, it does.
Dec 05 03:37:08 <Disconnect> "notepad needs net access and gps? ok sure why not"
Dec 05 03:37:14 <grey-> very convient, ask at install. ;)
Dec 05 03:37:22 <grey-> convenient even.
Dec 05 03:38:08 <Disconnect> ask at install, with no explanation and no options. (gps could - without breaking compatibility - always return "no fix" if i told it not to allow..)
Dec 05 03:38:28 <Disconnect> most of the permissions could do that in fact
Dec 05 03:38:37 <grey-> *nod*
Dec 05 03:38:55 <grey-> post-install it doesn't seem like there's a way to revoke perms short of uninstalling either.
Dec 05 03:38:59 <Disconnect> right
Dec 05 03:39:17 <grey-> you will take what we give you and like it!
Dec 05 03:39:22 <grey-> ^^^ android model. ;)
Dec 05 03:39:44 <Disconnect> google is supposed to have a ton of smart people.. if the design wasn't so bad i'd be convinced they sabotaged it intentionally to get dev devices out.  but most of the problems (and limitations) are implicit in the original deisgn
Dec 05 03:40:03 <grey-> not sure if you ever used a sidekick...
Dec 05 03:40:12 <grey-> but android to me feels very much like sidekick2.0
Dec 05 03:40:14 <Disconnect> only in pasing
Dec 05 03:40:17 <Disconnect> passing
Dec 05 03:40:29 <grey-> which while neat, especially for six years ago or whatever.
Dec 05 03:41:13 <grey-> well I'd say a lot of time has passed, but not a lot of design choices from that to android [which seems very much like an 'open' reimplementation]
Dec 05 03:41:40 <grey-> but I think it had even less of a security model.
Dec 05 03:41:56 <grey-> by the same token, you could get a developer-key.
Dec 05 03:42:12 <grey-> but chances of an app you wrote ever being pushed by tmobile were slim.
Dec 05 03:42:35 <grey-> and chances of getting a developer key these days is pretty much impossible (i've still got one friend @ danger and he says I'm SoL).
Dec 05 03:42:51 <grey-> so that's one way to enforce a security model - don't let anyone do anything.
Dec 05 03:43:02 <grey-> :-/
Dec 05 03:43:44 <unix_infidel> grey-: developer key?
Dec 05 03:43:55 <grey-> unix_infidel: for sidekicks.
Dec 05 03:44:05 <unix_infidel> ah.
Dec 05 03:44:18 <grey-> it seems they're no longer giving them out to people who request them. ;-/
Dec 05 03:44:35 <grey-> have no fear though, we'll soon see a Zune phone or some abomination!
Dec 05 03:44:59 * JesusFreke screams "It's alive!"
Dec 05 03:49:31 <Gary|tp> http://forum.xda-developers.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134824&d=1228407744
Dec 05 03:49:32 <Gary|tp> haha
Dec 05 03:50:05 <grey-> oh man I guess I should create an account on there.
Dec 05 03:50:10 <JesusFreke> looks like bitmaps for a 16x16 font :)
Dec 05 03:50:20 <grey-> can't view w/o account.
Dec 05 03:50:31 <grey-> JesusFreke: oh, there's a newer rc30 modified image now?
Dec 05 03:50:41 <JesusFreke> v1.2..
Dec 05 03:50:42 <grey-> JesusFreke: is there a way to do a version for your stuff. ;)
Dec 05 03:51:03 <JesusFreke> I plan on adding a property to show the version, in the next version. lol
Dec 05 03:51:10 <grey-> hehe, cool.
Dec 05 03:51:59 <grey-> oh, a real su!
Dec 05 03:52:20 <JesusFreke> yeah. heh
Dec 05 03:52:31 <JesusFreke> and adb shell access in recovery mode :D
Dec 05 03:52:34 <grey-> hmm I imagine the adb shell in recovery mode may come in handy.
Dec 05 03:52:40 <grey-> hah, like I was reading/typing. ;)
Dec 05 03:52:42 <JesusFreke> definitely :)
Dec 05 03:53:13 <grey-> do you know of any people looking at the L4 OKL4 stuff at all?
Dec 05 03:53:20 <grey-> I guess the qualcomm radio is running on that.
Dec 05 03:53:25 <grey-> more 'open' things that are closed.
Dec 05 03:53:40 <grey-> *sigh*
Dec 05 03:53:44 <grey-> thanks, fcc.
Dec 05 03:53:46 <JesusFreke> a better question might be "do you know what the heck L4 OKL4 is". and I would say: No.
Dec 05 03:53:50 <grey-> I'm still ATDTing.
Dec 05 03:53:52 <grey-> ahhh
Dec 05 03:54:08 <grey-> it's the Open Kerlen Labs microkernel.
Dec 05 03:54:14 <grey-> errr Kernel even.
Dec 05 03:54:30 <JesusFreke> ah
Dec 05 03:54:40 <grey-> oh wow
Dec 05 03:54:49 <grey-> looks liek someone has been doing some stuff: http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/29/android-qemu
Dec 05 03:55:06 <JesusFreke> "Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:37:01"
Dec 05 03:55:19 <Gary|tp> [21:52] <JesusFreke> and adb shell access in recovery mode :D
Dec 05 03:55:21 <Gary|tp> :o
Dec 05 03:55:27 <grey-> hah, yeah taht may be very old.
Dec 05 03:55:31 <grey-> I guess.
Dec 05 03:55:32 <grey-> d'oh
Dec 05 03:55:35 <Disconnect> JesusFreke: 1.2 have tethering?
Dec 05 03:55:39 <grey-> well it certainly wasn't a top hit a few weeks ago.
Dec 05 03:55:50 <grey-> others must be looking/linking to it.
Dec 05 03:55:56 <JesusFreke> no. v1.2 was out before tethering :p
Dec 05 03:56:04 <Disconnect> oh thats the one i've got then. :/
Dec 05 03:56:08 <grey-> argh janitor vacuuming.
Dec 05 03:56:16 <grey-> need to gtfo and get some dinner.
Dec 05 03:56:24 <JesusFreke> the next one is v1.3
Dec 05 03:56:27 <JesusFreke> :p
Dec 05 03:56:49 <JesusFreke> so far I just have a todo list for it. Haven't actually done anything with it yet
Dec 05 03:57:09 <unix_infidel> is there anyway to manage bookmarks?
Dec 05 03:57:36 <unix_infidel> nvm.
Dec 05 03:57:45 <Chainfire> EMI, but 1.3 of what?
Dec 05 03:57:59 <JesusFreke> my modified RC30
Dec 05 03:58:13 <Chainfire> ah k
Dec 05 03:58:38 <Chainfire> ya know ive been hanging here for about a month now and havent received my (RC19) G1 'til yesterday
Dec 05 03:59:12 <Chainfire> and still of everything what was said here, one thing still strikes me ass the oddest, said by one of the Google guys (I don't remember which one):
Dec 05 03:59:22 <Chainfire> "its a phone... what are you worrying about"
Dec 05 03:59:27 <unix_infidel> Chainfire: wouldnt be surprised if most G1's in stores got shipped back an replaced by RC30's
Dec 05 03:59:59 <Chainfire> is there anyone else who find this attitude completely in the lack of common interest and what ultimately can be done with phones?
Dec 05 04:00:00 <JesusFreke> I seriously doubt it
Dec 05 04:00:33 <Chainfire> unix_infidel> yeah I would have received it like 1.5 month ago, were it not that USPS misplaced the package not ONCE, not TWICE, but THREE times.
Dec 05 04:00:56 <Chainfire> seriously, I'm never ever going to use USPS to ship ANYTHING again. Not even a postcard.
Dec 05 04:01:13 <JesusFreke> wow. heh
Dec 05 04:01:19 <JesusFreke> that's... impressive
Dec 05 04:01:24 <sparkle> mmm
Dec 05 04:01:45 <sparkle> i once had a pair of Sun mbus modules accidentally take a detour to Guam and back
Dec 05 04:01:54 <Chainfire> one would assume such epic fails were reserved for people called closed stuff open, but har har, oh no
Dec 05 04:02:07 <sparkle> appearantly the zipcode is off-by-one from one in northern California
Dec 05 04:02:32 <sparkle> or close
Dec 05 04:02:49 <Chainfire> the device was originally shipped on 29-10... it arrived on 3-12 :/
Dec 05 04:03:01 <JesusFreke> that's just wrong
Dec 05 04:03:18 <Chainfire> yap
Dec 05 04:03:29 <Chainfire> still though
Dec 05 04:03:32 <Chainfire> I got it now
Dec 05 04:03:37 <Chainfire> its on the charger
Dec 05 04:03:43 <JesusFreke> ah :)
Dec 05 04:03:46 <Chainfire> i played with it for like 12 minutes
Dec 05 04:04:08 <JesusFreke> yeah, mine had like half a charge when I got it, but it wasn't sitting in a USPS truck for over a month either
Dec 05 04:04:20 <Chainfire> its not that the battery is flat
Dec 05 04:04:30 <Chainfire> its mostly that I can imagine all such cool things that could be done with it
Dec 05 04:04:40 <Chainfire> and then coming to the realisation you actually cant
Dec 05 04:04:55 <Chainfire> well you can obviously, with the root hack, as this is an RC19
Dec 05 04:05:06 <Chainfire> but "proper" G1's cannot
Dec 05 04:05:52 <Chainfire> i havent been following the channel for a few weeks, but it seems like im the only person who'se annoyed by this
Dec 05 04:06:06 <JesusFreke> not at all :)
Dec 05 04:06:19 <JesusFreke> we're just used to being annoyed by it by now. lol
Dec 05 04:06:26 <Chainfire> i would have expected this from T-Mobile sure
Dec 05 04:06:51 <Chainfire> but Google... blatantly misinforming customers? I never trusted Google, but I'd say this is beyond them...
Dec 05 04:07:06 <Chainfire> heh hows that being used to it?
Dec 05 04:07:24 <Chainfire> iphone doesnt pretend, blackberry doesnt pretend, wm doesnt pretend, symbian doesnt pretend
Dec 05 04:07:42 <Chainfire> they're all pretty clear in what you can and cannot do
Dec 05 04:08:09 <JesusFreke> to be fair, google never said you would have root access on an android phone
Dec 05 04:08:39 <Chainfire> did they specifically say so? no they didnt
Dec 05 04:08:45 <Chainfire> they do tout it as being open, though
Dec 05 04:08:53 <Chainfire> thats their MAJOR selling point
Dec 05 04:08:54 <JesusFreke> and the platform is open.
Dec 05 04:09:00 <JesusFreke> go download the source code. lol
Dec 05 04:09:00 <Chainfire> but the phone is not
Dec 05 04:09:05 <Chainfire> i have the source
Dec 05 04:09:11 <Chainfire> ive had the source for a long time
Dec 05 04:09:15 <Chainfire> hell ive ported compilers to it.
Dec 05 04:09:33 <sparkle> well then
Dec 05 04:09:34 <Gary|tp> The phone is HTC's/T-Mobiles
Dec 05 04:09:44 <Gary|tp> Google just provided the OS.
Dec 05 04:09:59 <sparkle> if someone who makes a phone wants to, they'll include your hard work
Dec 05 04:10:20 <Gary|tp> It was a decision by HTC/T-Mobile to lock down root and prevent you from flashing your own firmware.
Dec 05 04:10:42 <Chainfire> you can call that T-Mobile
Dec 05 04:11:05 <Chainfire> i've got a lot of (original non-branded) HTC devices and none of them prevent me from doing what I want.
Dec 05 04:11:13 <Chainfire> as much as I dislike HTC
Dec 05 04:11:34 <Chainfire> but thats not the point, the point is they ride the "open" bandwagon and when you get down to it, they are not
Dec 05 04:11:51 <Chainfire> and i've yet to find a single interesting thing about the G1
Dec 05 04:12:25 <JesusFreke> so return it :)
Dec 05 04:12:53 <Chainfire> i got this thing for work research, JesusFreke, I'm just talking about my personal perspective
Dec 05 04:13:14 <Chainfire> what I'd like to know is, what am I missing, as other people seem to be exciting about it?
Dec 05 04:13:23 <Chainfire> *excited
Dec 05 04:13:26 <Leeds> the point is made regularly that android is an open platform, but the G1 is not android
Dec 05 04:13:42 <JesusFreke> personally, if I didn't have root access on my phone, I would be as lackluster about it as you are
Dec 05 04:13:45 <sparkle> Chainfire: IMO as a phone, there's nothing exceptional
Dec 05 04:13:46 <sparkle> yeah
Dec 05 04:13:54 <sparkle> the browser is fairly good for a mobile device
Dec 05 04:14:10 <Chainfire> Leeds> what do I care about an open platform, if it's not open for the customer?
Dec 05 04:14:10 <JesusFreke> I was somewhat disappointed when I had it that first week, before that root exploit came out
Dec 05 04:14:17 <sparkle> but most of the apps are a bit lackluster - i'm particularly unimpressed with the stock mail apps
Dec 05 04:14:19 <Chainfire> oh come on
Dec 05 04:14:23 <Chainfire> the browser?
Dec 05 04:14:40 <Chainfire> it has nothing more or less than Opera Mobile does, which has been out for about 2 years now
Dec 05 04:14:47 <unix_infidel> Leeds: I dont think anyone expects an open DEVICE to come out.
Dec 05 04:14:51 <ttuttle> The browser is Webkit, plain and simple.
Dec 05 04:14:52 <Chainfire> add to that that links are pretty much unclickable, and a stylus doesn't work.
Dec 05 04:15:00 <unix_infidel> that's worth buying anyway.
Dec 05 04:15:05 <Chainfire> because it does really need _finger_ input
Dec 05 04:15:28 * sparkle nods
Dec 05 04:15:42 <sparkle> i find myself wishing that the trackball controlled a screen pointer instead of just moving focus
Dec 05 04:15:46 <sparkle> like on my nokia 9300
Dec 05 04:16:23 <Leeds> unix_infidel: openmoko?
Dec 05 04:16:39 <ExpiredPopsicle> Heh. I switched from a Nokia 9300 to my G1.
Dec 05 04:17:01 <Leeds> Android is a product aimed at vendors... the G1 is a product aimed at end-users... developers fall somewhere in the middle
Dec 05 04:17:19 <Chainfire> but thats just the thing Leeds
Dec 05 04:17:34 <Chainfire> Andriod was much hyped as being open... they were riding that bandwagon
Dec 05 04:17:46 <sparkle> heh cool EP
Dec 05 04:17:46 <Leeds> and Android *is* open
Dec 05 04:17:48 <Chainfire> they were leading people to believe that devices would be like that
Dec 05 04:17:50 <JesusFreke> *Android* is open
Dec 05 04:17:54 <sparkle> there are still some things i miss from s80
Dec 05 04:17:55 <JesusFreke> you beat me Leeds :p
Dec 05 04:18:10 <sparkle> and the 9300's keyboard was so much better
Dec 05 04:18:10 <Chainfire> not in the way consumers thought it would be
Dec 05 04:18:28 <Chainfire> dont get me wrong, I doesnt really matter to me, what DOES matter to me is my own customers
Dec 05 04:18:36 <ExpiredPopsicle> The only things I really miss from it are the tethering and the automatic call recording app.
Dec 05 04:18:37 <Leeds> Chainfire: it's *very* open as far as consumers are concerned... much more than symbian or iphone devices
Dec 05 04:18:41 <Chainfire> from my customers perspective, why would they get Android?
Dec 05 04:18:49 <ExpiredPopsicle> I like the G1 keyboard alot more than the 9300. :/
Dec 05 04:18:49 <Chainfire> how so?
Dec 05 04:18:55 <sparkle> i want a good blacklist app
Dec 05 04:19:03 <Chainfire> personally I think the G1 keyboard is a piece of crap
Dec 05 04:19:10 <Leeds> from the very simple perspective of being able to install any app you want
Dec 05 04:19:18 <Chainfire> you cant actually see the letters in a lot of different lighting conditions
Dec 05 04:19:19 <sparkle> wait
Dec 05 04:19:20 <ExpiredPopsicle> For some reason the 9300 blacklist app didn't work for me.
Dec 05 04:19:23 <sparkle> how can i not install a symbian app
Dec 05 04:19:31 <sparkle> that i, well, download from wherever
Dec 05 04:19:38 <Chainfire> Leeds> oh you mean, every app thats writting in Java and severly limited in what it can do?
Dec 05 04:19:45 <jbq> Chainfire: which color did you get? black, or other?
Dec 05 04:19:54 <Chainfire> jbq> black
Dec 05 04:20:02 <Leeds> sparkle: there are symbian APIs which are closed unless you are a high-end partner-type developer... so there are limits to the available apps
Dec 05 04:20:05 <ExpiredPopsicle> I think I personally prefer the Sidekick 3 keyboard over any other I've tried, but the G1 keyboard is okay.
Dec 05 04:20:09 <Leeds> eh, I don't know
Dec 05 04:20:19 <Leeds> the silver G1 keyboard has a serious issue though :-)
Dec 05 04:20:38 <ttuttle> Leeds: Tell me about it.  /me was stuck with one for a large part of my internship.  Unreadable much?
Dec 05 04:20:41 <jbq> Hmmmm, yeah, the black keyboard is usually considered quite readable.
Dec 05 04:20:45 <ttuttle> Leeds: (My current one is a black one, thank god.)
Dec 05 04:20:56 <sparkle> if only the kb backlight timeout was tunable
Dec 05 04:21:02 <Chainfire> im not sure but I dont thin kthe white was actually available yet when I ordered (and really, who wants white?)
Dec 05 04:21:16 <jbq> But even the the black one isn't perfect, I agree.
Dec 05 04:21:18 <Chainfire> the keyboard is grey with blue letters
Dec 05 04:21:19 <sparkle> i still want purple/black camo :p
Dec 05 04:21:28 <jbq> sparkle: lol
Dec 05 04:21:32 <Chainfire> and completely unreadable in my home lighting conditions.
Dec 05 04:21:36 <ExpiredPopsicle> hah. That sounds cool.
Dec 05 04:21:36 <eugene> ft
Dec 05 04:21:52 <grey-> ExpiredPopsicle: sk3 & 2008 have _great_ keyboards.
Dec 05 04:21:55 <Leeds> I think I'd like the brown case with the black keyboard
Dec 05 04:22:23 <sparkle> if my g1 didn't work out my fallback plan was to sell it and buy my coworker's nokia e90
Dec 05 04:22:26 <sparkle> i miss that resolution
Dec 05 04:22:28 <sparkle> but
Dec 05 04:22:50 <grey-> n97 has potential
Dec 05 04:23:12 * sparkle nods
Dec 05 04:24:01 <Chainfire> eh nokia
Dec 05 04:24:07 <Leeds> there are two things I need to be happy with my G1 - happy enough to wait patiently for other things to get done... A2DP, and FBReaderJ to work better
Dec 05 04:24:13 <chanwitk> @grey: n97 keyboard will have a problem for non-english people (like me).
Dec 05 04:24:15 <Chainfire> they released that touch screen yet?
Dec 05 04:24:33 <grey-> chanwitk: *nod*
Dec 05 04:24:37 <smerkiturkey> wat no
Dec 05 04:24:39 <smerkiturkey> fuk
Dec 05 04:24:41 <smerkiturkey> yes =)
Dec 05 04:24:43 <grey-> chanwitk: though there's no IME for android yet for CJKV.
Dec 05 04:24:47 <Acidulous> The only problem I have left with my G1 is no on screen keyboard... but that's only a matter of time
Dec 05 04:24:55 <ExpiredPopsicle> grey-: Yeah. I really like the tactile responsiveness.
Dec 05 04:25:04 <Decavolt> Acidulous: there are a couple user-created ones out there.
Dec 05 04:25:11 <eugene> grey-: how does the chinese input work for those china android phone?
Dec 05 04:25:12 <smerkiturkey> fuckin geeks =) lol
Dec 05 04:25:12 <grey-> I think the issue with the n97 and all.
Dec 05 04:25:24 <grey-> well, I bought the g1 not because it was an awesome device
Dec 05 04:25:24 <Acidulous> Yea, but they haven't been developed enough to be easily useable in my mind
Dec 05 04:25:30 <grey-> but because I think android will gain traction.
Dec 05 04:25:38 <chanwitk> @grey: someome from google say IME will be landing on the opensource branch just before x-mas.
Dec 05 04:25:46 <grey-> I don't see the n97 gaining traction.
Dec 05 04:25:51 <grey-> chanwitk: let's hope so!
Dec 05 04:25:53 <Chainfire> its nokia
Dec 05 04:25:57 <Chainfire> it'll gain traction
Dec 05 04:25:57 <Decavolt> True. They're a good start. Soft kb is supposed to be in the next update.
Dec 05 04:26:08 <eugene> Decavolt: awesome
Dec 05 04:26:55 <grey-> honestly...
Dec 05 04:27:00 <grey-> I'm not a gadget chaser.
Dec 05 04:27:04 <grey-> but if in a few years...
Dec 05 04:27:09 <Decavolt> I saw development screenshots not too long ago, looked pretty good
Dec 05 04:27:15 <grey-> there were some n97 like thing running x86...
Dec 05 04:27:16 <mib_krt7gt> geeks bitchs
Dec 05 04:27:26 <grey-> on some lowpower atom2 or whatever.
Dec 05 04:27:29 <grey-> that would be neat.
Dec 05 04:27:38 <grey-> all this ARM stuff is a big letdown for me.
Dec 05 04:27:46 <Acidulous> grey-: I wouldn't be the least bit suprised to see something like that
Dec 05 04:28:03 <jbq> Decavolt: soft-keyboard it's currently scheduled for a platform release in Q1 next year, and concluding that it's "the next update" is quite a stretch.
Dec 05 04:28:04 <Chainfire> heh ARM is great
Dec 05 04:28:08 <Chainfire> its just MSM that sucks balls
Dec 05 04:28:19 <grey-> I'm not saying x86 is awesome.
Dec 05 04:28:23 <Decavolt> right, right - I misspoke, but the point is the same
Dec 05 04:28:24 <grey-> but look what you can run on it.
Dec 05 04:29:08 <Chainfire> you can run a lot of stuff on ARM
Dec 05 04:29:08 <grey-> netbook/phone hybrid...
Dec 05 04:29:21 <grey-> [oqo would be neat if it were a phone]
Dec 05 04:29:40 <Chainfire> though phones of today are limited but they crappy Qualcomm MSM platform, which lacks decent gfx acceleration and FPU both
Dec 05 04:29:51 <Chainfire> making pretty much everything slow as a dog.
Dec 05 04:29:54 <grey-> *nod*
Dec 05 05:25:45 <KNY> is there a way to get the mobile's number via the API?
Dec 05 05:28:37 <offby1> ooh, you're gonna do something nefarious.
Dec 05 05:30:36 <KNY> offby1, it's for a quasi-legit app ;)
Dec 05 05:31:06 <KNY> it's nothing sneaky, but it's a setting that the app needs and asking the users has proved...problematic. They keep entering the wrong number
Dec 05 05:32:32 <offby1> ow
Dec 05 05:32:41 <offby1> if it were to ask me, I'd probably have forgotten.
Dec 05 05:32:58 <offby1> I will soon become one of those old men who writes their cell phone's number directly on the phone itself, with a Sharpie.
Dec 05 05:33:16 <KNY> offby1, exactly
Dec 05 05:33:50 <KNY> though it's an admittedly confusing setting because the application is for GrandCentral and so people keep entering their GC number and not the mobile number
Dec 05 05:34:49 <KNY> also, there must be a way to get the IMEI number since the Dialer can do it (this question comes up in here all the time), right?
Dec 05 05:35:20 * offby1 stares blankly
Dec 05 05:35:34 <offby1> I've never written a line of Android code in me life, nor even once glanced at any API docs.
Dec 05 05:36:17 <KNY> haha
Dec 05 05:36:18 <eugene> yawn
Dec 05 05:36:30 <KNY> are we boring you, eugene ?
Dec 05 05:37:16 <eugene> KNY: no. just feeling sleepy
Dec 05 05:37:47 <eugene> KNY: do you develop for the android?
Dec 05 05:37:53 <offby1> not too sleepy to type y a w n RET
Dec 05 05:38:00 <eugene> offby1: lol
Dec 05 05:38:08 <KNY> eugene, in my spare time, yeah
Dec 05 05:38:16 <eugene> KNY: fantastic
Dec 05 05:38:23 <KNY> why?
Dec 05 05:38:40 <eugene> KNY: i haven't written a code yet :)
Dec 05 05:38:54 <KNY> it's fun
Dec 05 05:39:16 <eugene> KNY: nod
Dec 05 05:42:07 <Leeds> eugene: hey, guess what?
Dec 05 05:42:34 <eugene> leeds: what?
Dec 05 05:42:49 <Leeds> got my visa (provisionally) approved yesterday!
Dec 05 05:43:06 <eugene> Leeds: congrats!
Dec 05 05:43:13 <Leeds> thanks :-D
Dec 05 05:44:01 <jbq> congrats. I know all too well how much stress immigration matters cause.
Dec 05 05:53:56 <JesusFreke> o/ jasta
Dec 05 05:55:06 <jasta> sup
Dec 05 05:56:28 <JesusFreke> did your internet connection die or something? lol
Dec 05 05:56:43 <jasta> kinda :)
Dec 05 06:01:13 <Nafai> There probably is no way to write "plug-ins" for the browser is there?
Dec 05 06:03:01 <jbq> Nafai: not currently, not.
Dec 05 06:03:12 <jbq> s/not./no./
Dec 05 06:03:12 <infobot> jbq meant: Nafai: not currently, no.
Dec 05 06:03:44 <KNY> is it in the roadmap at all or is it one of those things that's a "nice to have"?
Dec 05 06:03:45 <zhobbs> shouldn't you have to escape that "."?
Dec 05 06:04:12 <jbq> KNY: it's not quite on the roadmap, but it has been investigated quite deeply.
Dec 05 06:04:14 <KNY> zhobbs, that's a good catch
Dec 05 06:04:33 <KNY> I wonder... test testing
Dec 05 06:04:37 <JesusFreke> test
Dec 05 06:04:39 <KNY> s/test.*/foo/
Dec 05 06:04:46 <JesusFreke> s/.e./a/
Dec 05 06:04:49 <Nafai> jbq: Thanks.
Dec 05 06:04:50 <zhobbs> hehe
Dec 05 06:04:52 <JesusFreke> lol :p
Dec 05 06:04:56 <KNY> haha whoa
Dec 05 06:05:06 <JesusFreke> s/o/a/
Dec 05 06:05:07 <infobot> JesusFreke meant: lal :p
Dec 05 06:05:10 <Nafai> Trying to figure out where I can put my fingers, so to speak
Dec 05 06:05:29 <JesusFreke> I guess it just does straight replacement, no regex
Dec 05 06:06:03 <jbq> The infobot I used to play with, many years ago, only did straight replacement.
Dec 05 06:06:11 <KNY> we killed it
Dec 05 06:06:11 <KNY> I wonder... test testing
Dec 05 06:06:11 <KNY> s/test.*/foo/
Dec 05 06:06:14 <KNY> hmm, I thought maybe they had to be back-to-back, though I doubted it
Dec 05 06:06:16 <KNY> weird
Dec 05 06:06:18 <KNY> infobot, wake up
Dec 05 06:06:19 * infobot throws a barrel-full of ice water on up and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!"
Dec 05 06:06:44 <Leeds> infobot: wake romainguy
Dec 05 06:06:45 * infobot throws a barrel-full of ice water on romainguy and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!"
Dec 05 06:06:53 <KNY> haha, that's quite the lag
Dec 05 06:06:54 <JesusFreke> infobot wake Leeds
Dec 05 06:06:55 * infobot throws a barrel-full of ice water on Leeds and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!"
Dec 05 06:06:57 <KNY> I wonder... test testing
Dec 05 06:07:00 <KNY> s/test.*/foo/
Dec 05 06:07:05 <Leeds> I just had my lunch!
Dec 05 06:07:11 <KNY> huh.
Dec 05 06:07:23 <JesusFreke> KNY: it doesn't find "test.*" in your previous comment
Dec 05 06:07:30 * jbq is about to go to sleep
Dec 05 06:07:46 <KNY> so it doesn't do regex, just a straight search-and-replace
Dec 05 06:07:47 <JesusFreke> (no regex.. just string replacement apparently)
Dec 05 06:07:52 <KNY> lame
Dec 05 06:07:56 <JesusFreke> yup. hehe
Dec 05 06:07:59 <KNY> s/a/o/
Dec 05 06:07:59 <infobot> KNY meant: lome
Dec 05 06:08:07 <KNY> infobot, you're the worst
Dec 05 06:08:30 <JesusFreke> infobot are you the worst?
Dec 05 06:08:39 <DarkriftX> fuck
Dec 05 06:08:43 <JesusFreke> infobot, infobot is the worst
Dec 05 06:08:44 <infobot> ...but infobot is already something else...
Dec 05 06:08:47 <DarkriftX> my daughter decided to stick some keys in the light socket
Dec 05 06:08:55 <DarkriftX> toasted her hand, and half the house
Dec 05 06:08:55 <JesusFreke> infobot, what is infobot
Dec 05 06:08:56 <infobot> jesusfreke, I love abuse, feed me!, or an interactive bot that can learn all sorts of information (http://www.infobot.org/), or updated sources at http://infobot.sf.net/, or a robot that doesn't know it should only speak when spoken to, or on fire, or awesome.
Dec 05 06:09:00 <JesusFreke> ack dark
Dec 05 06:09:02 <Nafai> DarkriftX: She okay?
Dec 05 06:09:03 <JesusFreke> that's no good
Dec 05 06:09:14 <jbq> :(
Dec 05 06:09:19 <DarkriftX> killed every socket my wifi would work in so i had to rewire the house for cable/wifi
Dec 05 06:09:20 <DarkriftX> yeah
Dec 05 06:09:26 <DarkriftX> sore hand and a life lesson
Dec 05 06:09:32 <JesusFreke> wow, heh
Dec 05 06:09:35 <RyeBrye> DarkriftX - how old was she?
Dec 05 06:09:36 <DarkriftX> i did that soo many times when i was young
Dec 05 06:09:46 <DarkriftX> 4 (is)
Dec 05 06:09:46 <Leeds> RyeBrye: *is*
Dec 05 06:09:49 <DarkriftX> lol
Dec 05 06:09:56 <KNY> DarkriftX, I guess it's genetic
Dec 05 06:10:01 <DarkriftX> yes :S
Dec 05 06:10:18 <JesusFreke> I hope my kids don't get the "stick stuff in a light socket" gene
Dec 05 06:10:24 <RyeBrye> Leeds - he sad "had to rewire" so I was assuming it was in the past
Dec 05 06:10:25 <JesusFreke> :D
Dec 05 06:10:30 <Leeds> I've only had a mains shock once... bought a dodgy second-hand computer, got a jolt from the power cable
Dec 05 06:10:47 * JesusFreke hasn't had the pleasure yet
Dec 05 06:10:48 <DarkriftX> so now my laptop is sitting on the kitchen counter and the router is buried deep in my master br in a closet on top of the central wiring panel (shitty cable connection and shitty wifi location)
Dec 05 06:10:56 <DarkriftX> so there goes my 15/4mb speeds :(
Dec 05 06:11:36 <DarkriftX> i almost had to try some g1 tethering lol
Dec 05 06:12:01 <KNY> DarkriftX, how on earth did she reach a light socket?
Dec 05 06:12:10 <KNY> and have keys to stick in there? is she driving yet?
Dec 05 06:12:17 <DarkriftX> they are 8" from the ground :S
Dec 05 06:12:24 <DarkriftX> they were fake keys for a toy lock
Dec 05 06:12:26 <KNY> what kind of lights do you have? stage lights?
Dec 05 06:12:28 <DarkriftX> a diary type lock
Dec 05 06:12:34 <DarkriftX> the electrical socket
Dec 05 06:12:41 <DarkriftX> | |
Dec 05 06:12:42 <DarkriftX>  .
Dec 05 06:12:43 <KNY> oh I thought it was a light fixture
Dec 05 06:12:51 <DarkriftX> bzzzzzzzzzzzt
Dec 05 06:12:57 <KNY> yeah, I've done that
Dec 05 06:13:09 <DarkriftX> i did it in a 220v socket when i was 8
Dec 05 06:13:13 <DarkriftX> threw me about 10ft
Dec 05 06:13:14 <KNY> haha
Dec 05 06:13:28 <JesusFreke> dark: rofl
Dec 05 06:13:56 <DarkriftX> i also set off a 200kv capacitor with a screwdriver that was one hell of an explosion also
Dec 05 06:13:59 <KNY> electricity is scary stuff, I don't understand how all my friends and I made it out of childhood alive
Dec 05 06:14:07 <DarkriftX> i have a history of electricity sending me from one side of a room to another
Dec 05 06:14:22 <DarkriftX> its like teleportation, but more painful
Dec 05 06:14:38 <KNY> how would you know what teleportation feels like?
Dec 05 06:14:49 <DarkriftX> they never look like they are in pain in the movies :S
Dec 05 06:14:58 <KNY> haha
Dec 05 06:14:59 <DarkriftX> with electricity you can see the pain lol
Dec 05 06:15:07 <DarkriftX> and the "holy shit" look
Dec 05 06:15:23 <DarkriftX> you avoid walls for a few hours, like you think the sockets will reach out and grab you
Dec 05 06:17:45 <KNY> that was always my excuse
Dec 05 06:28:01 <TiberiumX> Does your house not have a breaker box?  Seems like that should have easily tripped one.
Dec 05 06:31:23 <DarkriftX> it does, but it screwed up a few outlets
Dec 05 06:32:05 <TiberiumX> Yeah, that was the question.  Why didn't it trip before damaging other outlets?
Dec 05 06:32:28 <DarkriftX> it all happened in half a second
Dec 05 06:32:43 <DarkriftX> it fried on its way to the breaker lol
Dec 05 06:34:43 <Lieutenant> WTF
Dec 05 06:34:45 <wYi> Hello, does anyone know the firmware revision of the latest White G1 in US? is it RC30 or lower?
Dec 05 06:34:57 <Lieutenant> the wierdest shit just happened!
Dec 05 06:35:00 <Damm> white G1 should run the same firmware right?
Dec 05 06:35:04 <Damm> as the black
Dec 05 06:35:06 <Gary|tp> http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=454395
Dec 05 06:35:11 <Gary|tp> Please test that and post your results!
Dec 05 06:35:40 <KNY> Lieutenant, ?
Dec 05 06:35:41 <Nafai> Know if anyone is working on a plucker-compatible reader for Android?
Dec 05 06:35:48 <Lieutenant> i go to use my phone, and when i try to enter my unlock code, all the pattern dots go green and pink randomly at random times.
Dec 05 06:35:54 <Lieutenant> i slide my finger across to make my pattern
Dec 05 06:35:58 <Lieutenant> but it still does that
Dec 05 06:36:16 <TiberiumX> Does RC30 have md5sum?
Dec 05 06:36:38 <Gary|tp> You run md5sum on the PC.
Dec 05 06:36:41 <Lieutenant> and after 3 seconds, it stopped, and the bottem right hand dot was green and a little line stuck out of it towards the "emergency dial" icon. and the line ended randomly
Dec 05 06:36:52 <Lieutenant> and then tahts not even the wierd part yet.
Dec 05 06:36:52 <Damm> Gary|tp, more then likely it's card related then G1.
Dec 05 06:36:58 <Leeds> Nafai: fbreaderj can read plucker files
Dec 05 06:37:10 <Leeds> very slowly, and it doesn't save its place properly
Dec 05 06:37:24 <Lieutenant> every time i tried to put my pattern in, it would move around like there were 2 points moving it.
Dec 05 06:37:35 <Gary|tp> Damm: Many many people have the problem.
Dec 05 06:37:47 <Nafai> Leeds: Thanks
Dec 05 06:38:19 <Lieutenant> and my finger was like .5 inch way from the screen hovering over it (not touching the screen) and as i got closer, the line would move or flinch. the closer i got, the higher the line would rise.
Dec 05 06:38:20 <KNY> Gary|tp, testing now
Dec 05 06:38:31 <Lieutenant> and 20 sesconds later, it restarted.
Dec 05 06:38:33 <KNY> Lieutenant, you're super capacitive now
Dec 05 06:38:34 <KNY> haha
Dec 05 06:38:40 <Damm> Gary|tp, well I can copy update.zip and it works, so i'm guessing the test won't matter for me.
Dec 05 06:38:47 * Damm is using the stock 1Gig card.
Dec 05 06:38:58 <KNY> Damm, how big is update.zip?
Dec 05 06:39:02 <Damm> and I have a 2nd card that's not stock, it's slow... but no corruption
Dec 05 06:39:04 <Damm> KNY, 50meg
Dec 05 06:39:07 <Gary|tp> Make sure it's a large file, 50+ mb, to ensure that the error will happen.
Dec 05 06:39:17 <Gary|tp> update.zip worked fine for me
Dec 05 06:39:27 <Gary|tp> but copying a 700 mb movie will show a different md5sum
Dec 05 06:39:35 <Damm> odd
Dec 05 06:39:38 <Damm> same results with adb push?
Dec 05 06:39:54 <Gary|tp> I wonder if moving the file from ext3 to fat is whats causing this...
Dec 05 06:40:13 <Damm> doubt it
Dec 05 06:40:16 <Gary|tp> Haven't tried that, sec.
Dec 05 06:40:24 * Damm <-- mac
Dec 05 06:40:26 <KNY> Gary|tp, try sticking the card into a card reader
Dec 05 06:40:31 <grey-> tampered md5? ;)
Dec 05 06:40:40 <KNY> Gary|tp, and btw, I just did a 700mb file and it has the same md5
Dec 05 06:40:42 <Gary|tp> don't have a card reader
Dec 05 06:40:58 <Gary|tp> windows? linux? using adb or mounted?
Dec 05 06:41:05 <KNY> linux, mounted
Dec 05 06:41:10 <KNY> from ext3
Dec 05 06:41:14 <Gary|tp> hmm
Dec 05 06:41:17 <grey-> I have on rare occasions found some md5/md5sum tools are doing something slightly different with their algorithms so they don't match each other even if their consistent in themselves.  Super annoying.
Dec 05 06:41:18 <KNY> not stock card
Dec 05 06:41:26 <Damm> Gary|tp, i do know that the USB mount really blows on the G1.... for me atleast it takes forever and a year to copy from
Dec 05 06:41:40 <Damm> did a dd if=/dev/sdb1 of=whatever bs=512
Dec 05 06:41:44 <Damm> and ugh
Dec 05 06:41:46 <Damm> nightmare
Dec 05 06:41:48 <Gary|tp> lol
Dec 05 06:41:50 <KNY> Gary|tp, try `scp` just for the hell of it
Dec 05 06:42:48 <Gary|tp> Well yes, that checksums areas of the file and resends them if it's corrupted right?
Dec 05 06:43:02 <KNY> I think so
Dec 05 06:43:28 <KNY> I mean the main purpose is to tunnel cp over ssh, but I imagine it does error correction
Dec 05 06:43:41 <grey-> errr
Dec 05 06:43:51 <grey-> afaik scp does not do addition crc/hashing.
Dec 05 06:43:57 <grey-> rsync by comparison will.
Dec 05 06:44:01 <KNY> ah
Dec 05 06:45:06 <Gary|tp> Copying the files over again, multiple times, to test
Dec 05 06:45:13 <Gary|tp> But god usb is slow :/
Dec 05 06:45:25 <grey-> it shouldn't be as slow as it is on the g1.
Dec 05 06:45:28 <grey-> it's really sad.
Dec 05 06:45:44 <KNY> I don't really notice any abysmal speeds
Dec 05 06:45:52 <KNY> I haven't done many large transfers, but still
Dec 05 06:46:14 <sparkle> well, the g1 is totally broken on a usb <2.0 port, maybe there are still issues with 2.0
Dec 05 06:46:28 <grey-> maybe.
Dec 05 06:47:05 <Leeds> indcidentally, there is a newer version of fbreaderj than the one I downloaded a couple of weeks ago, and it's noticeably better
Dec 05 06:47:13 <Leeds> wastrel: ping?
Dec 05 06:48:56 * Nafai tries
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 05 07:45:08 2008
Dec 05 08:29:03 <P1ro> anyone how to unlock the G1 ?
Dec 05 08:56:08 <kennyyu> approximately how much will 'repo sync' download? just wanna estimate the time :)
Dec 05 08:58:35 <anno^da_> Could someone tell me if there is an easy way to identify a missed call. I went through the broadcasts but didnt find one matching this. In addition I looked in the TelephonyManager which doesnt mention something like this either.
Dec 05 08:59:01 <anno^da_> I know that Google is using some hidden API for that. (Joshi stated that out in the Groups :()
Dec 05 09:00:22 <anno^da_> I've just found the LISTEN_MESSAGE_WAITING_INDICATOR but this just shows me if there is an voicemail available.
Dec 05 09:04:41 <rzr> hi
Dec 05 09:05:05 <anno^da_> hi ;)
Dec 05 09:06:31 <rzr> is there a repository of opensource applications from android ?
Dec 05 09:08:06 <Leeds> not really, no
Dec 05 09:34:24 <sparkle> re dream_kill
Dec 05 10:08:14 <anno^da_> Should the LED notifications work implemented in an own application?
Dec 05 10:08:32 <anno^da_> I get the text notifications working pretty fine
Dec 05 10:08:40 <anno^da_> but no LED notifies
Dec 05 10:10:20 <anno^da_> I've got the following but it just don't works. http://paste.pocoo.org/show/93936/  (no errors in the logs just no flashing LED)
Dec 05 10:56:00 <dilu> hiiiiiiiiiii
Dec 05 10:58:27 <tauno> general java question - if the documentation does not explicitly say that a method is thread safe, then I can assume that it's not? :)
Dec 05 10:59:50 <anno^da_> That's it.
Dec 05 11:00:12 * anno^da_ has got the LED notification working now.
Dec 05 11:00:23 <tauno> anno^da_, care to share? :)
Dec 05 11:00:29 <anno^da_> one sec
Dec 05 11:01:06 <anno^da_> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/93944/
Dec 05 11:01:32 <anno^da_> (of course nm is the NotificationManager :) that you have to get from Context)
Dec 05 11:02:01 <anno^da_> it is working pretty fine with all RGB colors
Dec 05 11:02:41 <anno^da_> And now I have to find this hidden broadcast or flag the lets me identify missed calls grr :)
Dec 05 11:03:25 <anno^da_> At the moment I get identified when the airplane mode is switched on/off but I dont really want that :) (just for testing the BroadcastReceiver)
Dec 05 11:38:15 <eldenz> anyone got the "3T-Mobile G1 3-in-1 Synch & Charge Stereo Audio 3.5mm adapter w/ microphone" and can tell me whether it has a volumecontrol/buttons?
Dec 05 11:38:35 <eldenz> http://www.amazon.com/T-Mobile-Charge-Stereo-adapter-microphone/dp/B001J61TQI/
Dec 05 11:45:02 <anno^da_> romainguy: Are you awake? :-)
Dec 05 11:54:50 <tauno> romainguy, seems to be on vacation or something.. haven't seen him around lately (that means I can't really whine or complain to anybody.. and it's building up inside me)
Dec 05 11:56:14 <tauno> prepare for a two-page essay about why things are bad and why they should be different and why the world sucks etc..
Dec 05 11:56:16 <tauno> (:
Dec 05 11:56:24 <tauno> ..when he comes back I mean:P
Dec 05 12:00:03 <eldenz> lol : )
Dec 05 12:14:29 <anno^da_> Is there a way to get one view inside a Linear Layout to the bottom of the page ?
Dec 05 12:15:03 <blau-MikeDG> stack from bottom maybe?
Dec 05 12:15:11 <blau-MikeDG> why not just make a second layout?
Dec 05 12:22:11 <anno^da_> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/93953/  - getting me to something like this. http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/287197/test.jpg  How would you change it? The view which should stick at the bottom is the "Post" TextView. I'm just learning the layout stuff so I'm open for everything. :-)
Dec 05 12:23:24 <blau-MikeDG> are you usin gthe xml previewer?
Dec 05 12:24:18 <blau-MikeDG> i think change gravity
Dec 05 12:24:30 <blau-MikeDG> would work
Dec 05 12:37:18 <bgupta> JesusFreke: Maybe /etc/release ?? (For version number..) Also might we want to consider a packaging system so we don't have to reflash the whole thing.. IE: INcremental updates...
Dec 05 12:39:57 <anno^da_> blau-MikeDG: Well the gravity just throws the text to the bottom of the TextView Container
Dec 05 12:41:18 <Gary|thinkpad> JesusFreke: If you're taking suggestions for next release, maybe a utility to randomize the keys/signing on the update to stop Google from pushing an OTA update signed with test keys :) ?
Dec 05 12:41:36 <blau-MikeDG> layout_alignParentBottom=true
Dec 05 12:41:38 <blau-MikeDG> try that
Dec 05 12:42:47 <blau-MikeDG> sorry im not being more helpful, just occupied with somehting im working on
Dec 05 12:45:42 <bgupta> ANyone doing any Android development in NYC?
Dec 05 12:45:57 <blau-MikeDG> like official googlers or just random people
Dec 05 12:46:03 <bgupta> random people
Dec 05 12:46:20 <blau-MikeDG> im in new jersey...
Dec 05 12:46:39 <bgupta>  cool... what are you using as your dev platform?
Dec 05 12:46:49 <bgupta> Linux/Mac windows?
Dec 05 12:46:52 <blau-MikeDG> everything lol
Dec 05 12:46:55 <kIDDAI> do you want to find a boyfrien?
Dec 05 12:46:55 <blau-MikeDG> primarily windows though
Dec 05 12:47:01 <kIDDAI> ^
Dec 05 12:47:10 <bgupta> Is Mac an ok dev platform for Andriod?
Dec 05 12:47:37 <tauno> (wanted to say "I'm using a computer" but then I realised how lame it would be.. and now I said it anyway :/)
Dec 05 12:47:49 <blau-MikeDG> mac works the best i think
Dec 05 12:47:58 <bgupta> I have VMWare... so I have options
Dec 05 12:48:01 <bgupta> ok cool..
Dec 05 12:48:15 <Gary|thinkpad> tauno: Good answer tbh. I don't think any OS has any distinct advantages over the other.
Dec 05 12:48:33 <Gary|thinkpad> Except of course 64 bit Windows. but that's been fixed too.
Dec 05 12:49:33 <blau-MikeDG> osx is prettiest
Dec 05 12:49:55 <blau-MikeDG> and supports the required casing for building android
Dec 05 12:49:58 <bgupta> Is anyone using something other than eclipse? Say, netbeans?
Dec 05 12:51:01 <tauno> Gary|thinkpad, agreed as long as you only develop apps for android - building Android itself is more Linux thingie I suppose.
Dec 05 12:52:44 <blau-MikeDG> i like eclipse
Dec 05 12:52:51 <blau-MikeDG> its so well integrated i wouldnt bother with anythign else
Dec 05 13:05:30 <anno^da_> no problem blau-MikeDG. I'm searching now again in the groups. :-)
Dec 05 13:08:57 <anno^da_> romainguy: are you awake?
Dec 05 13:09:52 <marix> gentlemen.
Dec 05 13:11:05 <blau-MikeDG> m lady
Dec 05 13:14:39 <marix> gentlefolks?
Dec 05 13:19:47 <bgupta> BTW - I just wanted to let any Googlers paying attention that G1 was one of the best 1.0 smartphone releases to date.. well done.
Dec 05 13:20:53 <tauno_> Well, the G1 was made by HTC, not google (;
Dec 05 13:21:14 <bgupta> technically... but they wrote the software, no?
Dec 05 13:21:30 <tauno_> yes, the software is theirs :)
Dec 05 13:22:07 <marix> GJ OHA!
Dec 05 13:22:36 <blau-MikeDG> anyone know how to popup a dialog box from a broadcastreceiver
Dec 05 13:22:42 <blau-MikeDG> i feel like im missing something obvious
Dec 05 13:24:10 <bgupta> Anyone know if it's possible to remap the green phone button's functionality depending on the orientation. IE: I want the phone button to launch the standard dialer app when it's open, and launch Larry's dialer app when it is closed.
Dec 05 13:30:39 <an_dev1> does anybody knows which video player which comes as default with g1
Dec 05 13:31:15 <blau-MikeDG> none?
Dec 05 13:31:53 <marix> an_dev1 the browser has a streaming video app that supports a few mobile codec's but otherwise it all on the market place
Dec 05 13:33:32 <an_dev1> matix: i tried an intent with this uri  (MediaStore.Video.Media.EXTERNAL_CONTENT_URI, "1") and it does play the video
Dec 05 13:33:41 <an_dev1> so that means it does have some inbuilt video
Dec 05 13:33:52 <an_dev1> but i don't know which one
Dec 05 13:35:51 <marix> it might be bundled with something but as a stand alone app it doesn't exist
Dec 05 13:35:51 <blau-MikeDG> oh
Dec 05 13:36:13 <blau-MikeDG> i think theres a sample in api demos
Dec 05 13:36:24 <bgupta> Remember G1 comes with a youtube player... so it must have at least one codec
Dec 05 13:37:02 <marix> right,  and like i said the browser can also play some media formats
Dec 05 13:38:05 <marix> anyone tried out this new web browser in the market "steel"
Dec 05 13:42:49 <blau-MikeDG> i have not
Dec 05 13:43:08 <blau-MikeDG> doesnt support major features of the normal browser
Dec 05 13:43:30 <marix> nah,  but it seems stable and is quick
Dec 05 13:43:51 <blau-MikeDG> im so tempted to try working on a fixed messaging app
Dec 05 13:44:00 <blau-MikeDG> but its such a watse of time
Dec 05 13:52:40 <bgupta> ANy ebook readers out yet. (Preffereably ones that support non-DRM .mobi ebooks)
Dec 05 13:53:34 <bgupta> mmm. fbreader seems to suppport .mobi
Dec 05 13:54:01 <blau-MikeDG> buy a kindle
Dec 05 13:54:03 <blau-MikeDG> :)
Dec 05 13:54:54 <bgupta> I own an iLiad... ;) however comma.
Dec 05 13:55:18 <bgupta> I want an ebook reader on my android.. seems fbreaderj  might have been ported
Dec 05 13:58:19 <blau-MikeDG> i love my kindle
Dec 05 14:03:46 <blau-MikeDG> anyone use the google app engine?
Dec 05 14:07:33 <marix> neg
Dec 05 14:18:49 <marix> kinda slow in here this morning
Dec 05 14:37:12 <anno^da_> romainguy_: are you awake?
Dec 05 14:47:46 <tauno_> anno^da_, give it up, he's hiding somewhere
Dec 05 14:50:22 <Disconnect> damnit. dream_kill disappeared. just when he was about to be useful.
Dec 05 14:50:45 <marix> ?
Dec 05 14:52:18 <Disconnect> he was gonna test something, then he disappeared
Dec 05 14:52:27 <marix> ah
Dec 05 14:53:14 <marix> I'm not sure if its because my browser cache is on my sd card,  but i just downloaded an episode of dexter in .3gp format over edge (took 45 minutes) and played it all in browser :)
Dec 05 14:54:10 <Disconnect> nice
Dec 05 14:54:23 <Disconnect> 45 minutes over edge.. thats what, about 2 megs? :)
Dec 05 14:54:46 <marix> close :(
Dec 05 14:57:30 <blau-MikeDG> lol
Dec 05 14:59:06 <marix> whoa,  .5 mil people lost jobs in november :(
Dec 05 15:00:15 <blau-MikeDG> yikes
Dec 05 15:00:24 <blau-MikeDG> prolly not a good idea to try and leave my cushy gov't job
Dec 05 15:01:17 <marix> i lost my job in september,  but got on w/ a water municipality soon after.
Dec 05 15:01:29 <wastrel> hi
Dec 05 15:01:39 <marix> hello wastrel
Dec 05 15:05:17 <Sudarshan> everyone is losing jobs
Dec 05 15:05:29 <Sudarshan> 15 year high
Dec 05 15:08:50 <Disconnect> hahaha. "I need a sample EULA." "Text File Html File pdf File pdf is the best by html.".. xaviar, you are a brilliant piece of entertainment. and should be taken out back and shot.
Dec 05 15:09:16 <jbq> lol
Dec 05 15:10:51 <cutmasta> hey guys
Dec 05 15:11:01 <cutmasta> just read about the australian android phone
Dec 05 15:11:03 <cutmasta> looks nice
Dec 05 15:11:07 <marix> they had a breakfast in the board room just now,  and the receptionist sent an email saying that left overs are now available.  so i was walking by and 8 people were in line outside the door but noone had a badge to open it.
Dec 05 15:11:22 <marix> so i open the door w/ my badge and they all pile in
Dec 05 15:11:29 <cutmasta> i think the one was called Kogan Agora
Dec 05 15:11:31 <marix> but now noone has a badge to get out
Dec 05 15:11:43 <marix> should have charged a toll
Dec 05 15:14:33 <Disconnect> lol
Dec 05 15:14:50 <Disconnect> cutmasta: its got a blackberry logo on it. prolly fake.
Dec 05 15:14:57 <Disconnect> and nobody has ever seen a dev here or on the lists
Dec 05 15:15:04 <cutmasta> hm
Dec 05 15:15:06 <cutmasta> just read
Dec 05 15:15:08 <cutmasta> http://www.shinyshiny.tv/2008/12/android_smartph.html
Dec 05 15:15:25 <cutmasta> and a big german magazine are reporting this
Dec 05 15:15:27 <Disconnect> ..right. we all saw the articles.
Dec 05 15:15:30 <cutmasta> ah
Dec 05 15:15:33 <Disconnect> that doesn't change what i just said.
Dec 05 15:15:48 <marix> wheres the blackberry logo?
Dec 05 15:16:18 <Disconnect> it used to be on the left side of the silver button. looks like its been removed.
Dec 05 15:16:24 <blau-MikeDG> kogan is like a real company
Dec 05 15:17:54 <Disconnect> yah they even comment on their blog "Good point about the logo -- it's not the BlackBerry logo but it is somewhat similar. We're going to talk to Google about getting the Android logo for that function button, which should look pretty cool!"
Dec 05 15:18:06 <Disconnect> ..kinda late in the game to be making changes to the hardware isn't it?
Dec 05 15:18:28 <jbq> Changing the silkscreen on a key can be done until very very late.
Dec 05 15:19:20 <marix> 29th of jan isn't too far off.
Dec 05 15:19:50 <marix> then again if its being released in Australian then hard core mass production isnt too much of an issue
Dec 05 15:20:18 <Disconnect> heh. they're right. 2 ) keys.
Dec 05 15:20:45 <jbq> If they're only doing a few thousands they could literally build them a week or 2 in advance, especially if they're sold over the internet.
Dec 05 15:21:28 <jbq> ewww, gotta hurry to have a shower if I want to catch my bus. ttyl.
Dec 05 15:21:39 <marix> kbye!
Dec 05 15:23:44 <Disconnect> it still kinda screams "we have no prototypes"
Dec 05 15:25:17 <zer0her0> yea i'm surprised they didn't notice the it's almost the blackberry logo till OTHERs pointed it out to them.
Dec 05 15:25:36 <blau-MikeDG> i still dont know what you guys are talking about
Dec 05 15:25:38 <blau-MikeDG> i see no logo
Dec 05 15:26:39 <blau-MikeDG> those dots on the key above enter?
Dec 05 15:27:17 <blau-MikeDG> my big concern is the enter key logo is the same as whatever that button is next to the round silver thing
Dec 05 15:35:52 * blau-MikeDG learning about the app engine
Dec 05 15:36:53 <mpardo> does anyone have information on decoding the amr-nb codec? specifically audio frequencies?
Dec 05 15:41:40 <pandzilla> uhm, I found the amr specs when I looked for them
Dec 05 15:41:43 <pandzilla> been a while
Dec 05 15:42:04 <pandzilla> it's a qualcomm standard and available somewhere from their website
Dec 05 15:42:46 <saurik> mpardo: note that its an expensive spec
Dec 05 15:42:54 <saurik> (like, not to read, but to use in a program)
Dec 05 15:43:09 <mpardo> amr?
Dec 05 15:43:26 <saurik> yeah
Dec 05 15:43:30 <saurik> http://www.voiceage.com/amr_licterms.php
Dec 05 15:43:33 <mpardo> android uses amr
Dec 05 15:44:33 <saurik> ok, I assumed you wanted to use it in your program
Dec 05 15:44:49 <saurik> not just enhancing the android platform that already used it
Dec 05 15:45:20 <marix> mpardo,  you might wanna try talking to the guys who made that ring tone editing app
Dec 05 15:45:21 <mpardo> wait so if i write an app that extracts parts of data from a 3gp file i have to pay royalties?
Dec 05 15:45:34 <saurik> AFAIK, yes
Dec 05 15:45:52 <mpardo> marix, I'm looking into the CheapAMR right now
Dec 05 15:45:56 <mpardo> but I can only get gain
Dec 05 15:46:08 <marix> ringdroid is the app name
Dec 05 15:46:22 <marix> i know they do it w/ mp3's but its a start
Dec 05 15:46:25 <mpardo> saurik, so does ringdroid have to pay a royalty for every time someone downloads their app?
Dec 05 15:46:28 * saurik (says this partly due to having talked with an existing licenser of AMR)
Dec 05 15:46:49 <_zippy> :)
Dec 05 15:46:50 <_zippy> morning
Dec 05 15:47:05 <marix> hey zippy
Dec 05 15:47:21 <mpardo> marix, there's an AMR class in ringdroid
Dec 05 15:47:33 <saurik> mpardo: yes (although they might not know that): if we reported them to the patent owners, and they felt that the app had enough downloads to make it worth suing them, then, well, you see where this is going ;P
Dec 05 15:47:46 <unix_lappy> iphone only plays mov and h264 right?
Dec 05 15:48:15 <mpardo> what if the app is not playing back audio?
Dec 05 15:50:07 <_zippy> saurik: sorry looks like i caught the end of a conversation, which app might you be talking about/
Dec 05 15:50:21 <mpardo> ringdroid, for example
Dec 05 15:50:30 <saurik> _zippy: apparently ringdroid (I didn't bring it up, mpardo was asking about AMR and I indicated it is expensive)
Dec 05 15:50:32 <mpardo> they process amr files to extract the gain for their waveformview
Dec 05 15:50:43 <_zippy> ahhh
Dec 05 15:50:51 <_zippy> side not: i love ringroid :D
Dec 05 15:51:18 <saurik> mpardo: I don't know, I'm not an expert in this matter (I just know its expensive ;P one of the companies I work with licenses it)
Dec 05 15:51:55 <saurik> unix_lappy: and mjpeg (that's what cycorder records to)
Dec 05 15:52:07 <mpardo> Hmmm... I'll have to look into that, I image for hardware encoders/decoders, etc... but for open source stuff i dont see the problem
Dec 05 15:52:12 <saurik> (which isn't patented, and is therefore cheap ;P)
Dec 05 15:52:17 <mpardo> imagine*
Dec 05 15:52:45 * saurik (has been meaning to file some kind of complaint against "iphone video recorder", which is almost certainly not licensing the codec its using)
Dec 05 15:53:01 <saurik> mpardo: why would open source be different?
Dec 05 15:53:13 <mpardo> i guess...
Dec 05 15:53:13 <saurik> the codecs for these sorts of things all refer you to these licensing terms
Dec 05 15:53:46 <marix> maybe google already paid the license to include it in the device
Dec 05 15:53:57 <marix> so you don't have to relicense the device again :)
Dec 05 15:54:04 <mpardo> that would be nice
Dec 05 15:54:06 <marix> or atleast that what you can claim you thought at your hearing.
Dec 05 15:54:17 <mpardo> ha
Dec 05 15:55:01 <mpardo> i should be able to deconstruct/manipulate/analyze and file on my phone which my phone makes
Dec 05 15:55:10 <saurik> example, the really common amrnb and amrwb are considered uncopywrit reference implementations, and if you compile support for them into ffmpeg it marks itself as non-redistributable (the website for this project, which has information on licensing, is here: http://www.penguin.cz/~utx/amr)
Dec 05 15:55:11 <mpardo> i didn't encode it that way... android did
Dec 05 15:55:52 <saurik> well, /you/ can, but if you distribute that program to other people, then no
Dec 05 15:56:01 <marix> google should have an android dev help desk for this stuff
Dec 05 15:56:14 <mpardo> i guess my app wont go up on the store then lol
Dec 05 15:56:22 <saurik> I don't think its google's job to deal with users violating patents
Dec 05 15:56:25 <mpardo> marix, yes they should
Dec 05 15:56:38 <tech9iner> any known rooting exploits for rc30 yet please? or.. best website to monitor specific to rooting perhaps? thanks mates
Dec 05 15:56:39 <jbq> marix: I haven't followed the discussion, but doesn't android-developers fit what you need?
Dec 05 15:56:40 <blau-MikeDG> i probably should have started an llc before releasing somehting that text messages people
Dec 05 15:56:41 <saurik> marix: afaik, the device being licensed doesn't cut it, this is a per-application copy royalty
Dec 05 15:57:18 <saurik> tech9iner: join this mailing list: http://www.telesphoreo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/g1-hackers
Dec 05 15:57:30 <marix> saurik,  you are probably right but whats teh definition of an application?
Dec 05 15:57:44 * tech9iner chuckles noting zippy nick; working on marketing presentation & supportive promotion media for local fleet/truck service center change called 'Zippy' 
Dec 05 15:58:05 <tech9iner> thanks muchly saurik.
Dec 05 15:58:08 <saurik> (the ceo of a company I work with, who has an amr license, concurs with that)
Dec 05 15:58:18 <marix> lol
Dec 05 15:58:41 <tech9iner> lol.. *change/chain
Dec 05 16:00:51 <mpardo> ok since AMR is shit because of licenses, is there a way to record audio UNencoded?
Dec 05 16:01:06 <mpardo> there isn't correct?
Dec 05 16:01:34 <marix> wav or mp3 or ogg are all free!
Dec 05 16:01:53 <mpardo> but you can't record to those formats with MediaRecorder
Dec 05 16:01:56 <marix> well,  mp3 isnt free free,  but close enough
Dec 05 16:02:46 <marix> i dunno,  it all seems so round about for what you wanna do w/ it
Dec 05 16:03:02 <marix> it would be nice if you could just take the input from the mic and run some math on it and be done
Dec 05 16:03:09 <mpardo> you can't
Dec 05 16:03:11 <mpardo> that's the prolem
Dec 05 16:03:11 <marix> yea
Dec 05 16:03:13 <mpardo> problem*
Dec 05 16:03:17 <mpardo> so i have to do it this way
Dec 05 16:03:42 <mpardo> MPEG_4 is a OutputFormat, but what about compression then?
Dec 05 16:04:00 <mpardo> and is mpeg4 free?
Dec 05 16:04:09 <infernix> just a heads up for everyone.
Dec 05 16:04:33 <infernix> i had data corruption when copying from pc to G1 over usb mount. md5sums were different every time
Dec 05 16:04:54 <infernix> i bought two ferrite cores and put them on each end of the USB cable. no more data corruption
Dec 05 16:05:26 <infernix> so if you experience this, buy ferrite cores and stick them to your usb cable, or use a cable with integrated ones
Dec 05 16:06:05 <mpardo> ok so mpeg4 is patented to so that won't work
Dec 05 16:06:09 <mpardo> too*
Dec 05 16:20:13 <marix> just go with amr
Dec 05 16:20:23 <mpardo> and get sued?
Dec 05 16:20:40 <marix> noone will care about your little application that only works on a cell phone with .02% market share
Dec 05 16:21:07 <_zippy> but once you start amking millions
Dec 05 16:21:09 <_zippy> be aware
Dec 05 16:21:10 <mpardo> i'm sure, but i'm not feeling too risky about it
Dec 05 16:21:16 <_zippy> i'm going to report you for a small stipend!
Dec 05 16:21:24 <mpardo> pfft
Dec 05 16:21:30 <mpardo> ur that guy
Dec 05 16:21:36 <marix> zippy will blackmail you for 30cents
Dec 05 16:21:38 <_zippy> mpardo: your fault lies in that you've posted here, which is logged, and now we know you KNOW
Dec 05 16:21:45 <_zippy> hah
Dec 05 16:21:47 <_zippy> 30 cents?!
Dec 05 16:21:50 <marix> thats true
Dec 05 16:21:51 <_zippy> i was gunna ask fro 20
Dec 05 16:21:58 <mpardo> hmm well i'll make it for personal use then
Dec 05 16:21:58 <_zippy> .... but shesh, now i know I can get 30...
Dec 05 16:22:07 <marix> cha ching!
Dec 05 16:22:13 <_zippy> mpardo: "proof of concept" ;)
Dec 05 16:22:19 <mpardo> lol yea
Dec 05 16:22:25 <mpardo> does that hold up?
Dec 05 16:22:56 <marix> when are we gonna get doom up and running?
Dec 05 16:23:16 <marix> i still have my chexquest wad just waiting to be busted out.
Dec 05 16:23:32 <_zippy> mpardo: i don't see why it wouldn't, but then again I'm no law buff
Dec 05 16:23:53 <_zippy> The worst I could see if you making it, releasing it as a "poc/beta" and never charge for it
Dec 05 16:24:06 <mpardo> yea... i wouldn't charge
Dec 05 16:24:09 <_zippy> someone says " hey you didn't buy that!" and then you take it down
Dec 05 16:24:10 <JesusFreke> infernix: good info about the ferrit cores. thanks for the tip :)
Dec 05 16:24:17 <_zippy> ... yet it's already out there and floating around :)
Dec 05 16:24:41 <mpardo> ok so back to my original question... anyone have info on extracting frame frequency?
Dec 05 16:25:04 <_zippy> ahh - my original answer would be no
Dec 05 16:25:05 <_zippy> :)
Dec 05 16:25:44 <mpardo> hah ok
Dec 05 16:27:01 <blau-MikeDG> im bored, so im making a google app engine driven support app for my crap
Dec 05 16:28:40 <marix> you guys ever seen goonies?
Dec 05 16:28:48 <mpardo> duh
Dec 05 16:28:50 <_zippy> "hey you guys"
Dec 05 16:28:53 <_zippy> no - never
Dec 05 16:28:58 <_zippy> :)
Dec 05 16:29:15 <_zippy> :) hello jbq
Dec 05 16:29:20 <marix> you know at the when the mexican cleaning lady who has been employed by them for 1 day finds the bag of gems?
Dec 05 16:29:26 <jbq> hello... again :)
Dec 05 16:29:49 <_zippy> marix: yes
Dec 05 16:29:57 <marix> and instead of pocketing them and walking off they have a yelling match about not signing the papers
Dec 05 16:30:03 <marix> yea,  what was she thinking?
Dec 05 16:30:25 <_zippy> marix: morals man, morals
Dec 05 16:30:30 <_zippy> apparently you lack them!
Dec 05 16:31:02 <marix> sorry,  my morals get foggy when pirate ships and gemstones come into play
Dec 05 16:31:27 <_zippy> ahh well apparently you havn't reached the truth test every young boy gets someitme in there life
Dec 05 16:31:37 <_zippy> you havn't reached your "pirate ship" yet?
Dec 05 16:31:39 <_zippy> sorry to hear...
Dec 05 16:31:54 <bert0> yar
Dec 05 16:32:07 <_zippy> i reached mine, had a mexican cleaning lady, a mutant and ice cream... all in the same day
Dec 05 16:32:11 <_zippy> now get off my lawn
Dec 05 16:32:14 <_zippy> :)
Dec 05 16:32:20 <blau-MikeDG> is there any way to detect activity on the phone?
Dec 05 16:32:23 <blau-MikeDG> any suggestions
Dec 05 16:32:30 <marix> lol\
Dec 05 16:32:33 <_zippy> blau: ANY type of activity?
Dec 05 16:32:37 <blau-MikeDG> like if I think the user may be using the phone I dont want my method to run
Dec 05 16:32:59 <_zippy> hmm...
Dec 05 16:33:03 <marix> using it for calls?
Dec 05 16:33:21 <blau-MikeDG> just calls wont be sufficient
Dec 05 16:33:44 <_zippy> hot key everything?
Dec 05 16:33:47 <blau-MikeDG> i dont know, someone needs to think out of the box
Dec 05 16:33:50 <_zippy> ... though that'd be ugly
Dec 05 16:34:15 <_zippy> what type of method are you trying to do?
Dec 05 16:34:48 <blau-MikeDG> broadcast receiver for mms
Dec 05 16:34:52 <blau-MikeDG> omg i think i figured something out
Dec 05 16:34:56 <blau-MikeDG> dont check for activity
Dec 05 16:34:59 <_zippy> hmm, do share? :)
Dec 05 16:35:01 <blau-MikeDG> check for inactivity!
Dec 05 16:35:16 <blau-MikeDG> theres gotta be someting to see when the phone last went to sleep
Dec 05 16:35:26 <blau-MikeDG> although maybe that still wouldnt work super great
Dec 05 16:35:57 <_zippy> blau: that might work - but if you have your phone set NOT to sleep when plugged in
Dec 05 16:36:01 <_zippy> it might be kinda hoopy
Dec 05 16:36:08 <blau-MikeDG> yeah thats what i was worried abou
Dec 05 16:36:12 <_zippy> though
Dec 05 16:36:18 <_zippy> you could always check to see what the sleep timeout is
Dec 05 16:36:26 <_zippy> and if stay-on is activated
Dec 05 16:37:14 <_zippy> what type of method would you be running when the user isn't active? won't that be a type of battery-killer?
Dec 05 16:37:20 <blau-MikeDG> basically here's what i want to do
Dec 05 16:37:32 <JesusFreke> easy way to check for keyboard activity:
Dec 05 16:37:33 <blau-MikeDG> its a broadcast reeiver for mms that says "balbala sorry im not available" in response to an sms
Dec 05 16:37:38 <JesusFreke> check the backlight LED device
Dec 05 16:37:56 <JesusFreke> although I'm not positive if it's world readable :/
Dec 05 16:37:57 <_zippy> ahh
Dec 05 16:37:57 <blau-MikeDG> i dont want to force the user to enable and disable this
Dec 05 16:38:11 <blau-MikeDG> i want it to intelligently enable and disable itself
Dec 05 16:38:41 <_zippy> blau: good idea, but just because the phone is in "sleep" doesn't mean the user isn't there
Dec 05 16:39:03 <_zippy> my phone is in sleep right now, but I'm available and right next to it
Dec 05 16:39:38 <JesusFreke> blau: yeah, the keyboard backlight is world readable. You should be able to check to detect any recent keyboard activity
Dec 05 16:39:40 <blau-MikeDG> or on the flipside, if a user starts using it temporarily while they have it set to autorespond, i dont want to send those messages if they can respond
Dec 05 16:39:57 <blau-MikeDG> i was thinking maybe pop up a window where they can cancel or say ok, send my away response
Dec 05 16:40:08 <_zippy> hmm
Dec 05 16:40:35 <_zippy> I think the detection to see if the user is active, would be more ideal
Dec 05 16:40:38 <blau-MikeDG> i feel like if i could do this smoothly it would be killer
Dec 05 16:40:41 <_zippy> so if i have "busy" enabled
Dec 05 16:40:47 <_zippy> then start using my phone
Dec 05 16:41:09 <_zippy> well - clumsy me forgets to disable it, but your app will say "wow your using the phone, turn me off dumby, your obviously available"
Dec 05 16:41:28 <blau-MikeDG> yeah, i know that happens to me all the time and i hate it :)
Dec 05 16:41:33 <_zippy> hehe
Dec 05 16:41:51 <_zippy> Something like a self-timeout, kept by the program seems more appropriate
Dec 05 16:42:04 <blau-MikeDG> what do you mean by that
Dec 05 16:42:04 <_zippy> like... if i havn't touched my phone for... 10 minutes, then send it out
Dec 05 16:42:36 <blau-MikeDG> yeah, i cant figure out, how to determine, i havent touched my phone for 10 minutes
Dec 05 16:42:42 <_zippy> hmm
Dec 05 16:42:50 <_zippy> what about looking at the google calander instead?
Dec 05 16:42:56 <blau-MikeDG> grrr my active installs keep dropping :(
Dec 05 16:42:57 <_zippy> and seeing if you'd logged as "busy" or not?
Dec 05 16:43:23 <blau-MikeDG> zippy: someone suggested that and itll be implemented in the future, right now theres no simple way to get calendar stuff
Dec 05 16:43:36 <_zippy> thus if i drop into a meeting, it will auto respond... then maybe it will detect if it's.... not busy etc
Dec 05 16:43:45 <_zippy> hmm alrighty
Dec 05 16:44:29 <blau-MikeDG> it seems to be really popular or hit a note with people
Dec 05 16:44:45 <blau-MikeDG> ive gotten at least 3x more emails from this app in < a week than i have in all my others combined
Dec 05 16:44:56 <_zippy> blau: what app?
Dec 05 16:45:05 <blau-MikeDG> even though its the least installed app of my 4
Dec 05 16:45:06 <blau-MikeDG> dgAway
Dec 05 16:45:36 * _zippy is away, downloading dgAway so I can uninstall it and leave a 1 star dumb comment
Dec 05 16:46:44 <_zippy> blau: I'm installing now - but i have a question for you
Dec 05 16:46:55 <_zippy> You wern't able to block the smsbroadcast where you?
Dec 05 16:47:02 <_zippy> (disable the notification saying you got one?)
Dec 05 16:47:24 <blau-MikeDG> didnt try
Dec 05 16:47:28 <blau-MikeDG> why would you want that?
Dec 05 16:47:40 <_zippy> It's ugly
Dec 05 16:47:49 <_zippy> I was working on an app similar to yours
Dec 05 16:47:49 <blau-MikeDG> you can disable it yourself
Dec 05 16:47:55 <blau-MikeDG> the notification thing?
Dec 05 16:48:03 <_zippy> I just wanted to be able to take certain txts and not let them be notified
Dec 05 16:48:19 <_zippy> i.e. -- number 555-1234 sends a text saying "password forward to me"
Dec 05 16:48:27 <_zippy> and not have that show up on the notification
Dec 05 16:48:39 <blau-MikeDG> theres no way to do that witht he current sdk afaik
Dec 05 16:49:06 <_zippy> Ahh, yea as far as I could see, thats right
Dec 05 16:49:11 <_zippy> just wasnt sure if you figured it out ;)
Dec 05 16:49:21 <blau-MikeDG> it used to exist in old sdk's
Dec 05 16:49:29 * _zippy sighs
Dec 05 16:49:38 <_zippy> I know, i had the application working on the emulator ;)
Dec 05 16:49:53 <_zippy> apparently it's too much of a security risk I've been told
Dec 05 16:50:09 <_zippy> which - granted, i understand, but still, yuck!
Dec 05 16:50:48 <blau-MikeDG> yeah shrug :/
Dec 05 16:51:13 <blau-MikeDG> should just be another permission
Dec 05 16:51:21 <blau-MikeDG> "consumeSmsPermission"
Dec 05 16:52:06 <herriojr> I'm curious, if I download the android source and make changes, can I somehow test it through the emulator
Dec 05 16:52:35 <blau-MikeDG> yes i think it comes iwht instructions
Dec 05 16:52:36 <Disconnect> in the emulator, yes. in the device, not really (effectively "no")
Dec 05 16:52:39 <blau-MikeDG> or just google for them
Dec 05 16:52:53 <herriojr> yeah, I tried googling for it
Dec 05 16:52:58 <herriojr> for instructions
Dec 05 16:54:26 <herriojr> they need to include instructions here: http://source.android.com/submit-patches
Dec 05 16:55:42 <_zippy> hmmm off to lunch!
Dec 05 16:58:27 * Disconnect is disappointed in lunch - looked at the board and saw "pizza" (yay) but its "pizza romo" which means mediocre burgers and such :(
Dec 05 17:00:26 <jammr> if you were able to sign an update 'as google', you'd be able to update regardless of RC#, correct?
Dec 05 17:00:39 <Disconnect> sign it as htc but yah
Dec 05 17:01:50 <jammr> where could I get the utility to sign updates? and does it allow you to verify?
Dec 05 17:02:18 <Disconnect> istr the signer is part of the source build (but of course, with the test keys)
Dec 05 17:02:46 <KNY> cross-posted from #android-dev: if I have a URL to an MP3, how would I go about playing it in Music?
Dec 05 17:03:13 <jammr> but you can still generate new keys (as google, if you knew the related info)?
Dec 05 17:03:45 <Disconnect> "the related info" is the private key matching the public key already in firmware
Dec 05 17:04:30 <jammr> so assuming you could generate the private key successfully, you could run a modified update
Dec 05 17:04:44 <Disconnect> thats how pke works, yes.
Dec 05 17:04:45 <KNY> yes
Dec 05 17:05:05 <KNY> but unless you know something that the crypto community doesn't, you won't be able to generate the private key
Dec 05 17:05:23 <jammr> there's no possible way at all to brute force it?
Dec 05 17:05:35 <Disconnect> sure. how many millions of ghz/years have you got?
Dec 05 17:05:39 <KNY> if you have a supercomputer running from now until the end of time, maybe
Dec 05 17:06:01 <KNY> and that's not really an exaggeration
Dec 05 17:06:03 <jammr> I'm just asking theoretically
Dec 05 17:06:16 <KNY> theoretically, sure it's possible to brute force it
Dec 05 17:06:30 <blau-MikeDG> brute force it on google app engine!
Dec 05 17:06:44 <jammr> and is there a way I could automate testing brute forced private keys?
Dec 05 17:06:52 <shackan1> blau-MikeDG: brilliant
Dec 05 17:06:54 <KNY> jammr, I don't think you understand
Dec 05 17:07:17 <KNY> in the strictest sense, yes, it *could* be brute forced, however it would quite literally take trillions of years
Dec 05 17:07:42 <Disconnect> you are looking for (at least) a -pair- of incredibly large primes. the correct pair, in the correct order.
Dec 05 17:08:05 <herriojr> which means: not going to happen
Dec 05 17:08:06 <blau-MikeDG> disc: how many primes are there?
Dec 05 17:08:23 <herriojr> could be infinite
Dec 05 17:08:26 <KNY> herriojr, maybe he has a quantum computer in his closet :)
Dec 05 17:08:31 <herriojr> known or unknown
Dec 05 17:08:31 <blau-MikeDG> how many do we know about
Dec 05 17:08:42 <KNY> blau-MikeDG, look up GIMPS
Dec 05 17:08:57 <jammr> I know it could possibly take a bazillion years, just looking into it
Dec 05 17:08:58 <shackan1> KNY: he also needs to know how to implement rsa on a quantum computer, heh
Dec 05 17:08:59 <KNY> though that's just mersenne primes
Dec 05 17:09:04 <Disconnect> jammr: http://tinyurl.com/5woo6s
Dec 05 17:09:32 <KNY> shackan1, I imagine if he built a quantum computer, he could figure out the RSA implementation ;)
Dec 05 17:09:32 <Disconnect> blau-MikeDG: there are fewer primes than even numbers. but its degrees of infinite.
Dec 05 17:09:32 <jammr> I understand how this stuff works
Dec 05 17:09:46 <Disconnect> jammr: clearly not
Dec 05 17:10:04 <KNY> Disconnect, *shrug* maybe he'll get lucky and get it on the third guess
Dec 05 17:10:07 <jammr> I am not saying hey, let's brute force google's certificates
Dec 05 17:10:13 <blau-MikeDG> yay got my android app calling my google app server engine crap
Dec 05 17:11:21 <Disconnect> sorry, its 3 very large primes not 2.
Dec 05 17:12:04 <KNY> Disconnect, how big (bits) is the signing key?
Dec 05 17:12:05 <Disconnect> 1024 bit key == 300,000,000,000 MIPS years to break. (2048 bit? 300,000,000,000,000,000,000 MIPS years)
Dec 05 17:12:12 <KNY> heh
Dec 05 17:12:21 <blau-MikeDG> unless you get lucky
Dec 05 17:12:30 <Disconnect> not sure off the top of my head, thats a question for cmonex and company. although actually... lemme look.
Dec 05 17:12:42 <blau-MikeDG> im gonna guess, they are using 7, 3, and 5 as their primes
Dec 05 17:12:55 <blau-MikeDG> in that order
Dec 05 17:13:03 <KNY> blau-MikeDG, and the remaining 1021 bits are '\0' ?
Dec 05 17:13:08 <blau-MikeDG> yes
Dec 05 17:13:09 <KNY> haha
Dec 05 17:13:23 <KNY> your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter
Dec 05 17:14:51 <blau-MikeDG> wish there was a way to login to google app engine stuff
Dec 05 17:14:55 <blau-MikeDG> from android apps
Dec 05 17:15:53 <Disconnect> wow. you are in luck. its 2048 bits
Dec 05 17:15:57 <blau-MikeDG> then you could easily store app data "in the cloud"
Dec 05 17:16:09 <KNY> org.apache.http.*
Dec 05 17:16:19 <Disconnect> http://pastebin.ca/1277006
Dec 05 17:16:47 * KNY gets to work with his TI-84+
Dec 05 17:16:56 <KNY> I'll have it done by dinner
Dec 05 17:17:37 <Disconnect> jammr: find the private key that goes with that and i am absolutely positive we can get you at least $1k in donations (much, much, much more if you find a general weakness in RSA)
Dec 05 17:18:23 <Phlogi> how can I configure my phone to vibrate when a new message arrives? Its in silent mode, but vibrating is on..
Dec 05 17:18:29 <KNY> if you crack RSA, you'll be famous forever
Dec 05 17:18:34 <blau-MikeDG> phlogi: in the messaging app
Dec 05 17:18:38 <KNY> and probably dead in a week since people will be *pissed* :)
Dec 05 17:18:40 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: ok
Dec 05 17:18:44 <blau-MikeDG> the settings
Dec 05 17:18:50 <blau-MikeDG> press menu while in the messaging app
Dec 05 17:18:57 <jammr> I'm just looking at how I would sign one myself, and verify it as runnable or not
Dec 05 17:19:26 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: thanks :)
Dec 05 17:19:29 <blau-MikeDG> np
Dec 05 17:19:43 <blau-MikeDG> or you can downlaod dgAlert, and setup custom vibration for SMS messages
Dec 05 17:19:47 <Disconnect> jammr: the android source build signs it, and has info on how to make your own keys and such
Dec 05 17:20:21 <Disconnect> but seriously, you'll be much more famous if you break rsa.
Dec 05 17:20:41 <KNY> blau-MikeDG, nice plug :)
Dec 05 17:20:44 <jammr> lol
Dec 05 17:22:09 <herriojr> is this the only roadmap? http://source.android.com/roadmap
Dec 05 17:23:21 <Phlogi> when I receive a message and don't notice the vibrate or hear the sound, is it possible to get periodically notification until I read it?
Dec 05 17:23:36 <blau-MikeDG> not at the moment
Dec 05 17:23:48 <KNY> "This feature will enable the SIM to initiate actions for various operator-specific value-added services."
Dec 05 17:23:49 <KNY> oh god
Dec 05 17:23:52 * KNY runs away
Dec 05 17:24:02 <blau-MikeDG> kny: ?
Dec 05 17:24:06 <blau-MikeDG> is that my app?
Dec 05 17:24:15 <KNY> blau-MikeDG, no, that's on the Android roadmap
Dec 05 17:24:30 <herriojr> Phlogi: you might be able to make an app to do that...I'd have to check further into it though
Dec 05 17:24:32 <blau-MikeDG> oh, thought i went a little overboard on permissions or something
Dec 05 17:24:53 <Phlogi> herriojr: yes I hope so... hmm maybe there is already one.. anyone knows of such an app?
Dec 05 17:25:00 <blau-MikeDG> an app doesnt exist
Dec 05 17:25:07 <KNY> anything that an operator calls a "value-added service" should raise all kinds of red flags
Dec 05 17:25:10 <blau-MikeDG> but if you guys can come up with a method to handle it, ill make it now
Dec 05 17:25:26 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: you talking about what I asked? :)
Dec 05 17:25:31 <blau-MikeDG> phlogi: yeah
Dec 05 17:25:35 <bert0> Has anyone used that classifieds program?
Dec 05 17:25:37 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: oh interesting :)
Dec 05 17:25:50 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: I'm missing this feature since my first mobile phone :D
Dec 05 17:25:50 <blau-MikeDG> i dont know a reliable way to stop it from beeping for every that doesnt require user intervention
Dec 05 17:25:57 <bert0> This thing would rock if it was linked to craigslist
Dec 05 17:26:04 <herriojr> You could always just check the SMS database to see if they are read, right?  Every couple minutes or so (not too much or the battery may run out quickly :) )
Dec 05 17:26:13 <KNY> blau-MikeDG, is there a--yeah, what herriojr said
Dec 05 17:26:21 <Phlogi> hmm the intervall should be configurable
Dec 05 17:26:29 <herriojr> yeah, I agree
Dec 05 17:26:30 <Phlogi> yes for sms, email and missed phone calls at least
Dec 05 17:26:35 <Disconnect> blau-MikeDG: can you subscribe to the notification? beep until the notification is cleard
Dec 05 17:26:39 <herriojr> any app that polls should allow the user to configure it
Dec 05 17:26:48 <Phlogi> herriojr: full ack
Dec 05 17:26:58 <blau-MikeDG> notification is disableable
Dec 05 17:27:02 <blau-MikeDG> so that wouldnt work for everyone
Dec 05 17:27:16 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: hmm what do you mean?
Dec 05 17:27:29 <Phlogi> if someone has disabled it ok... then he won't that app anyway
Dec 05 17:27:38 <Disconnect> yah seriously
Dec 05 17:27:53 <blau-MikeDG> you obviously havent read some comments in the market
Dec 05 17:27:57 <blau-MikeDG> :)
Dec 05 17:28:53 <Phlogi> hmm wondering where :)
Dec 05 17:29:08 <Disconnect> i have so read the comments. i understand that obama is a savior n*gger monkey who is going to save the world from global warming by giving us all free cars and killing all the white folks. but i don't know what that has to do with notifications. :)
Dec 05 17:29:12 <blau-MikeDG> i like the idea of checking the sms database for unreads though!
Dec 05 17:29:37 <jasta> UHHHH
Dec 05 17:29:50 <RyeBrye> Yeah, I read the comments too. Apparently there are half a dozen sites I need to sign up to be able to connect to other G1 users
Dec 05 17:30:02 <blau-MikeDG> jasta: concern?
Dec 05 17:30:09 * jbq scrolls back, reads KNY's comment about STK (SIM toolkit).
Dec 05 17:30:42 <Disconnect> RyeBrye: yah thats right, i forgot, "and he hangs out on this site where he connects with g1 users"
Dec 05 17:30:59 <Phlogi> Today I read bad things in newspapers about gphone.. hehe because of that impossibility to disable that the phone uses the internet... which Imho is not true
Dec 05 17:31:18 <blau-MikeDG> phlogi: i read that too
Dec 05 17:31:20 <blau-MikeDG> and dont understand it
Dec 05 17:31:30 <blau-MikeDG> its a) an idiot who screwed up and then realised what he did and lied
Dec 05 17:31:31 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: I have just set a wrong server adress for gprs ;)
Dec 05 17:31:36 <Phlogi> jup
Dec 05 17:31:55 <blau-MikeDG> or b) a bug,
Dec 05 17:32:07 <jbq> The feature I'm aware of behind this is for dynamic call routing: to be able to easily say that you want to temporarily forward certain calls to your home phone, or (even more fun) to receive on your cell phone calls that were meant for your home phone.
Dec 05 17:32:28 <KNY> jbq, is that re: the STK?
Dec 05 17:32:35 <jbq> KNY: yes
Dec 05 17:32:45 <KNY> jbq, like GrandCentral does, then? :)
Dec 05 17:33:09 <jbq> I guess GrandCentral could go through something like that, yeah.
Dec 05 17:33:16 <jbq> I used to work at a company that did it.
Dec 05 17:34:40 <RyeBrye> GrandCentral would be good - if you could change settings from the phone.
Dec 05 17:34:43 <RyeBrye> It requires flash though
Dec 05 17:34:45 <meyou> that's pretty much exactly what grandcentral does
Dec 05 17:34:52 <luok> how do you hard reset the g1?
Dec 05 17:34:55 <meyou> i wonder if my gc account ever got pruned
Dec 05 17:35:01 <RyeBrye> Although grand central + myFaves... :)
Dec 05 17:35:16 <Phlogi> hmm phone does not want to connect to wep secured ap...  strange
Dec 05 17:35:22 <KNY> RyeBrye, G1 Central :)
Dec 05 17:35:25 <snadge> im about to try install JF's rc30
Dec 05 17:35:32 <RyeBrye> KNY - yep :)
Dec 05 17:36:16 <marix> disconnect,  good thing i read the context of that statement or my brain might have exploded.
Dec 05 17:36:21 <xsdg> Phlogi: in what sense?
Dec 05 17:36:22 <RyeBrye> KNY - It would be cool if I could configure the dialer in G1 central to let the calls to my normal faves (and possibly emergency calls) go through my normal dialer, and have all the rest use Grand Central - and then have it replace the default dialer app
Dec 05 17:36:32 <xsdg> Phlogi: does the network broadcast the SSID?
Dec 05 17:36:35 <Phlogi> says otaining ip adress but nothing...
Dec 05 17:36:48 <Phlogi> xsdg: jup, it works without encryption... i use my laptop as ap
Dec 05 17:36:54 <KNY> RyeBrye, could you write that up as a suggestion? http://bugs.evancharlton.com
Dec 05 17:37:02 <KNY> there's no way I'll remember it otherwise
Dec 05 17:37:04 <RyeBrye> KNY - is G1 Central your app?
Dec 05 17:37:06 <meyou> WEP + ad hoc then?
Dec 05 17:37:07 <KNY> RyeBrye, yes
Dec 05 17:37:10 <RyeBrye> KNY - cool :)
Dec 05 17:37:24 <Phlogi> it does not even contact the dhcp server
Dec 05 17:37:36 <Phlogi> so maybe it can't come in to network at all
Dec 05 17:37:38 <xsdg> Phlogi: hmm...  If you plug your phone into a computer and run `adb logcat`, do you see anything WIFI-related in the logs?
Dec 05 17:37:53 <Phlogi> xsdg: hmm have never done that..
Dec 05 17:38:02 <Phlogi> how do I do that on linux?
Dec 05 17:38:13 <marix> is their anyway to uninstall amazon and 5  faves?
Dec 05 17:38:17 <Phlogi> The key I use: Encryption key:0123-4567-89AB-CD
Dec 05 17:38:21 <xsdg> Phlogi: the `adb` command is part of the SDK
Dec 05 17:38:23 <herriojr> jbq: it would be cool to auto-forward calls based on your location
Dec 05 17:38:29 <Phlogi> I just type in: 0123456789ABCD on the phone?
Dec 05 17:38:41 <Phlogi> xsdg: hmm, can the sdk connect to my phone?
Dec 05 17:38:48 <herriojr> like if I'm at the office, to there, if I'm at home, to my LAN line, if else-where to my cell phone
Dec 05 17:39:01 <xsdg> Phlogi: the SDK includes the "adb" program, which stands for "Android Debug Bridge"
Dec 05 17:39:05 <xsdg> so yes
Dec 05 17:39:24 <Phlogi> could you give me a link how to set that up (on linux...)?
Dec 05 17:39:31 <blau-MikeDG> hmm, maybe my unreliableness in my alert app is because of garbagecollection
Dec 05 17:39:49 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: are you already working on it?
Dec 05 17:39:55 <herriojr> Phlogi: you need to enable debugging on your phone
Dec 05 17:40:04 <herriojr> in order to connect it to your computer
Dec 05 17:40:15 <blau-MikeDG> herrior: i have it
Dec 05 17:40:24 <Phlogi> herriojr: hehe ok
Dec 05 17:40:33 <xsdg> Phlogi: http://code.google.com/android/download.html
Dec 05 17:40:42 <blau-MikeDG> lol ignore that last sentence
Dec 05 17:40:50 <Phlogi> after iwconfig ath1 key off it works again flawelessly
Dec 05 17:40:51 <xsdg> Phlogi: you can grab the SDK from there; you also need to enable debugging, like herriojr mentioned
Dec 05 17:40:56 <blau-MikeDG> phlogi: working on some designs for it
Dec 05 17:41:02 <Phlogi> xsdg: I already have the sdk
Dec 05 17:41:15 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: awesome, is the name already fixed so I could write it down
Dec 05 17:41:22 <herriojr> so, for some reason the sdk can't find ncurses when trying to compile
Dec 05 17:41:28 <xsdg> Phlogi: then turn on debugging (Settings->Applications->Development->Debug, or something)
Dec 05 17:41:30 <herriojr> for adb
Dec 05 17:41:32 <blau-MikeDG> it'll be in dgAlert
Dec 05 17:41:41 <Phlogi> ok later :)
Dec 05 17:41:48 <xsdg> herriojr: what does `ldd adb` say?
Dec 05 17:41:52 <RyeBrye> If the community were to come up with a good solution to put USB network tethering into android - would that kind of change be welcome or would it be shot down because of the fact that carriers will probably hate it? (this post got me thinking: http://www.telesphoreo.org/pipermail/g1-hackers/2008-December/000132.html )
Dec 05 17:42:02 <blau-MikeDG> hope to get ir working together soon
Dec 05 17:42:39 <herriojr> xsdg: ./adb: No such file or directory
Dec 05 17:42:56 <Phlogi> can I downgrade my system to something <rc30?
Dec 05 17:43:01 <xsdg> herriojr: oh, you're compiling adb?
Dec 05 17:43:06 <herriojr> yes
Dec 05 17:43:18 <xsdg> herriojr: do you have libncurses5-dev installed?
Dec 05 17:43:25 <herriojr> maybe not
Dec 05 17:43:25 <RyeBrye> I'm working if it is worth the effort to make a good implementation - complete with a "start USB networking" when you connect a USB cable that coexists with the "Mount device" thing... or if such a patch would never be accepted anyway so it wouldn't be worth the effort to make it all pretty
Dec 05 17:43:52 <xsdg> Phlogi: for a standard image, you cannot downgrade, no
Dec 05 17:44:16 <Phlogi> ok
Dec 05 17:44:17 <RyeBrye> s/working/wondering/
Dec 05 17:44:18 <infobot> RyeBrye meant: I'm wondering if it is worth the effort to make a good implementation - complete with a "start USB networking" when you connect a USB cable that coexists with the "Mount device" thing... or if such a patch would never be accepted anyway so it wouldn't be ...
Dec 05 17:44:24 <herriojr> xsdg: I'm just trying to create the Android.jar, so I can test api changes I do
Dec 05 17:45:00 <herriojr> before I try and submit them
Dec 05 17:45:05 <marix> ryebrye,  i think it hasn't yet been tested if the community is really driving development or if the carriers have final say.  I'd guess if such a feature existed they'd want to be able to charge extra for it.
Dec 05 17:45:45 <xsdg> herriojr: well, it'd be easiest just to install the ncurses dev package (which gives you the ncurses headers, without which you won't be able to compile and link against ncurses)
Dec 05 17:45:55 <herriojr> ok
Dec 05 17:45:58 <herriojr> just installed it ;)
Dec 05 17:46:41 <RyeBrye> marix - I was wondering that same thing. I was suspecting that since the carriers tend to lock the OS down, and it appears the carriers are responsible for the builds that get put on the phones, that such a feature could be put into android but carriers could just disable it as part of their build
Dec 05 17:46:46 <marix> ryebrye,  though with that said,  tmobile has allowed blackberry teathering without any additional fees,  even trained phone support to help you get it set up.
Dec 05 17:47:43 <herriojr> RyeBrye: yes, carriers have the last say, but it usually depends on their relationship with the OEM
Dec 05 17:48:15 <herriojr> RyeBrye: smaller carriers usually can't get the changes they want, but the larger ones can
Dec 05 17:48:28 <RyeBrye> There are many, many tethering options in the works for the G1 - but for some reason the usb networking thing seems like one of the coolest ones to me. Maybe it's just because I have done variations of the other versions in the past so the USB thing is a "new and exciting" method to me - or maybe it's because I think devices having a presenting themselves as a bunch of different USB devices is cool
Dec 05 17:48:55 <RyeBrye> You could theoretically make your phone into a USB Wifi network adapter even
Dec 05 17:48:57 <herriojr> I work on white-label carrier branded phone apps, so that is my experience
Dec 05 17:49:33 <RyeBrye> herriojr - are you working on any android apps? did you write myFaves or the hotspot app? ;)
Dec 05 17:50:07 <herriojr> no, we didn't write either of those
Dec 05 17:50:10 <marix> im curious where this is going...
Dec 05 17:50:31 <herriojr> our Android app isn't out yet
Dec 05 17:50:48 <marix> herriojr, do you know if uma is possible on the g1 and only limited by software or is their a hardware issue aswell?
Dec 05 17:52:02 <herriojr> marix: I honestly don't know what uma stands for or is
Dec 05 17:52:54 <marix> sorry,  its the calling via wifi thing that tmo advertises
Dec 05 17:53:22 <marix> its voip but from your home wifi to their network
Dec 05 17:54:03 <Disconnect> RyeBrye: build a kernel w/ usb gadget support and usb networking, see what it does
Dec 05 17:54:23 <snadge> is v1.2 the latest updat
Dec 05 17:54:51 <Disconnect> snadge: is there a newer one on that thread?
Dec 05 17:55:01 <snadge> +e. hard to type on this tiny keyboard
Dec 05 17:55:24 <marix> yet you managed that whole extra sentence...
Dec 05 17:55:33 <herriojr> marix: I would assume it's just software....it supports both usb connections and wifi...
Dec 05 17:55:59 <marix> kk
Dec 05 17:56:09 <marix> so you gonna tell us what your Android App is?
Dec 05 17:56:24 <herriojr> nope, I can't
Dec 05 17:56:44 <marix> but were community,  thats almost like family!!!
Dec 05 17:56:55 <blau-MikeDG> omg i think i may have solved the unreliability in dg Alert!
Dec 05 17:56:59 <herriojr> yeah, but I would kind of like to keep my job ;)
Dec 05 17:57:17 <herriojr> you can make assumptions from questions I've asked on here all you want though ;)
Dec 05 17:57:20 <marix> do you guys have a ball pit?
Dec 05 17:57:29 <herriojr> no
Dec 05 17:57:59 <marix> bummers
Dec 05 17:59:24 <marix> infobot logs
Dec 05 17:59:25 <infobot> All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/channel, where "channel" is replaced by the URL-encoded channel name, such as %23freenode for #freenode. Lines starting with spaces are not logged.
Dec 05 18:00:13 <Damm> marix, uma is a custom setup... the wifi is there, but the software to handle it is not... obviously
Dec 05 18:00:23 <Phlogi> what the license of those android apps? blau-MikeDG, do you release as free software (gpl)
Dec 05 18:00:35 <Damm> I imagine T-Mobile has no interest with the UMA on the G1... as UMA is a niche... and so is the G1, and they are not the same Niche's.
Dec 05 18:01:06 <RyeBrye> I have no need for UMA. I have myFaves and Grand Central :)
Dec 05 18:01:09 <marix> damm,  their was some question as to the hardware requirements for transcoding live audio into ip.  i know w/ the blackberry pearl it required additional hardware to do it on the fly.
Dec 05 18:01:13 <RyeBrye> (and KNY's G1 Central app)
Dec 05 18:01:18 <blau-MikeDG> feel free to distribute do whatever with them, but the source is mine and ill be miffed if people start decompiling them
Dec 05 18:01:18 <Damm> RyeBrye, remove myfaves really.
Dec 05 18:01:41 <Damm> marix, shouldn't be any different from encoding your voice into the GSM codec.
Dec 05 18:01:41 <blau-MikeDG> although i might release dgMoney source under some open source license
Dec 05 18:01:57 <RyeBrye> Damm - the myFaves app is worthless... but all my calls to / from my grand central number are free... and using G1 central - all my outbound calls come in from my grand central number
Dec 05 18:01:59 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: yes you should... :)
Dec 05 18:02:03 <blau-MikeDG> i just dont have the time to maintain that, and I hit a point, where im feature happy with it
Dec 05 18:02:14 <Damm> RyeBrye, sexy.
Dec 05 18:02:28 <KNY> RyeBrye, and you can set GC to report your incoming calls with your GC number, so those would be free, too
Dec 05 18:02:31 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: yes of course.. but then releasing is not a problem at all :)
Dec 05 18:02:36 <KNY> though I do not endorse or recommend it ;)
Dec 05 18:03:14 <RyeBrye> KNY - Yeah, but I haven't done that yet because I like caller ID functioning... and I don't want to tell everyone to change my number - but I might do that for work with work calls
Dec 05 18:03:41 <KNY> RyeBrye, yeah
Dec 05 18:04:03 <blau-MikeDG> you guys really should use the new version of dgAlert when I upload it
Dec 05 18:04:06 <blau-MikeDG> its a killer app
Dec 05 18:04:10 <Disconnect> i'd be -very- surprised if tmob didn't make a habit of reviewing accounts that only make calls to a few numbers a month. and istr they bill overage-minute rates on any fraud they catch (like grandcentral+myfaves)
Dec 05 18:04:13 <RyeBrye> or if Grand Central had a feature where it could report the GC number on caller ID for unknown contacts, that'd be fine
Dec 05 18:04:15 <KNY> a Killer App (tm)
Dec 05 18:04:41 <KNY> Disconnect, yeah, which is why I don't endorse, encourage, or support it
Dec 05 18:04:47 <KNY> that's not why I made the app
Dec 05 18:04:49 <RyeBrye> Disconnect - yeah, they probably do.
Dec 05 18:05:30 <Disconnect> backdating bills no less. its not worth it (to me at least) to save ~$20 max a month at a risk of thousands :)
Dec 05 18:05:42 <marix> while you guys are making the g1 into a usb network device,  could you also get the camera to function as a webcam?
Dec 05 18:05:58 <blau-MikeDG> could you guys also make the g1 camera not suck
Dec 05 18:06:08 <marix> me first
Dec 05 18:06:10 <dcordes> RyeBrye, hi
Dec 05 18:06:18 <xsdg> blau-MikeDG: take the battery cover off
Dec 05 18:06:26 <marix> ryebrye is kinda famous
Dec 05 18:06:30 <xsdg> (it works surprisingly well)
Dec 05 18:06:34 <blau-MikeDG> xsdg: doesnt speed it up though :(
Dec 05 18:06:37 <dcordes> RyeBrye, any news?
Dec 05 18:06:39 <xsdg> true
Dec 05 18:06:41 <Disconnect> xsdg: that doesn't solve the 10 second exposure time
Dec 05 18:06:43 <blau-MikeDG> although it almost makes it worth it
Dec 05 18:06:57 <Disconnect> or the lack of zoom. bad white balance. etc etc
Dec 05 18:07:14 <blau-MikeDG> i have enough time to take the cover off after i press the shutter button
Dec 05 18:07:14 <marix> the camera initialization works fast w/ barcode scanner though
Dec 05 18:07:15 <blau-MikeDG> :)
Dec 05 18:07:20 <Disconnect> heh
Dec 05 18:07:30 <RyeBrye> dcordes - the htc bootloader was dumped successfully by people from the NAND partition and some people are disassembling it looking for vulnerabilities - but that's only "progress", not really "major news"
Dec 05 18:07:55 <dcordes> RyeBrye, cool. what I was asking for last time we talked :)
Dec 05 18:08:10 <dcordes> do you have the partition table?
Dec 05 18:09:05 <RyeBrye> dcordes - http://www.telesphoreo.org/pipermail/g1-hackers/2008-December/000096.html
Dec 05 18:09:29 <dcordes> ok thanks
Dec 05 18:10:50 <blau-MikeDG> is there a way to disable Log.d?
Dec 05 18:11:16 <fadden> How do you mean?
Dec 05 18:11:27 <fadden> You don't want it to write to the log or you just don't want to see it?
Dec 05 18:11:37 <blau-MikeDG> like i have a billion log.d's i dont want them to be there when i deploy
Dec 05 18:12:34 <wastrel> hi
Dec 05 18:13:02 <fadden> You want to wrap them with if (CONSTANT) { Log.d() }  so that they get removed from the sources entirely.
Dec 05 18:13:17 <fadden> Java doesn't provide a way to make that nice.
Dec 05 18:15:10 <andyross> Or write your own logger routine and swap it out for deployment, might be cleaner.
Dec 05 18:15:40 <fadden> andyross: doesn't help as much as you'd think.  This came up yesterday...
Dec 05 18:16:06 <fadden> Log.d("this " + str + " stuff") <-- turns into StringBuilder calls, generates a bunch of objects
Dec 05 18:16:21 <blau-MikeDG> yeah, horrrrible
Dec 05 18:16:32 <fadden> Unless you actually exclude the Log.d call entirely, you still have the overhead of string concatenation and a method call.
Dec 05 18:16:51 <jbq> yeah, the majority of the cost is in the tostrings and stringbuilders and the underlying implementations.
Dec 05 18:16:55 * jasta is listening...
Dec 05 18:16:57 <andyross> Well, yeah, that's java.  Alternative is to use a varargs printf thing, where you only have to build the arguments array
Dec 05 18:17:18 <fadden> andyross: that way lies madness :-)
Dec 05 18:17:27 <blount> profile that then get back to us :-)
Dec 05 18:18:04 <fadden> You have the array allocation and allocation/boxing of primitive types.
Dec 05 18:18:24 <fadden> And then you have to make sense of it all on the other side.
Dec 05 18:18:44 <jasta> fadden: what problem are you trying to solve again?  i joined this conversation late
Dec 05 18:18:46 <andyross> Reflection is admittedly insane, but it's not *that* bad.  Wrote this for a test a while back.  Could probably be productized into something with low runtime overhead: http://pastebin.com/m4f84507d
Dec 05 18:19:13 <blau-MikeDG> jasta: getting rid of log.d's elegantly when deploying without deleting
Dec 05 18:19:29 <andyross> I mean, if you really have logging that's impacting performance, the solution is "don't do that", of course.
Dec 05 18:19:30 <jasta> without just writing if (FOO) { ... } ?
Dec 05 18:19:44 <blau-MikeDG> if (FOO) was brought up
Dec 05 18:20:00 <blau-MikeDG> and is winning
Dec 05 18:20:02 <andyross> Problem, of course, is getting an expression for "FOO" that isn't 39 bytes logn.
Dec 05 18:20:03 <blount> if (false) {} == zero runtime overhead
Dec 05 18:20:12 <fadden> andyross: there's a lot of allocation going on in there, and reflection calls should never be on the fast path.
Dec 05 18:20:30 <andyross> Yeah, but those can come out into a static block.  They're just there to get the class objects.
Dec 05 18:20:31 <Damm> it's weird when there's development chat in here... but nice
Dec 05 18:20:46 <blount> I CAN HAS ROOT?!?!
Dec 05 18:20:58 <fadden> andyross: frankly, you're better off with StringBuilder
Dec 05 18:21:27 <fadden> blau-MikeDG: just make sure that FOO is "static final boolean" and let javac cut things out
Dec 05 18:21:51 <andyross> Frankly, I'm better off with an environment where logging (!) doesn't have to be a performance pain.  But this is tested and works, and again: if the implementation becomes viod LOGI(String fmt, Object... args) {}, then the overhead is very close to zero.
Dec 05 18:22:02 <jasta> why couldn't you just use varargs with format strings?
Dec 05 18:22:18 <jasta> yeah, as andyross just said.
Dec 05 18:22:21 <andyross> The builtin Log class doesn't do varargs.
Dec 05 18:22:25 <fadden> andyross: you understand that "Object..." implies allocating an Object[], populating it, boxing primitives into object types?
Dec 05 18:22:46 <fadden> Java doesn't have varargs.  javac fakes it by allocating an Object array.
Dec 05 18:22:52 <andyross> Sure.  And that's orders of magnitude faster than the StringBuilder implementation.  Allocating an array is cheap even in C.
Dec 05 18:23:12 <jasta> fadden: which is a lot cheaper than StringBuilder and copies.
Dec 05 18:23:42 <jasta> fadden: the pragmatic side of me is wondering how useful logging code could possibly be in performance critical paths anyway
Dec 05 18:23:46 <fadden> I'm curious to know where you guys are getting the "lots cheaper" idea from.
Dec 05 18:23:57 <blount> "doctor, it hurts when I do this..."
Dec 05 18:24:17 <fadden> You're going to have to do the string conversions anyway.
Dec 05 18:24:38 <jasta> fadden: StringBuilder is copying your strings, allocating an array and writing to it is not.
Dec 05 18:24:39 <fadden> So either you're going to append them all together or output them separately, the latter having some profound performance issues if it's turning into system calls.
Dec 05 18:24:49 <blau-MikeDG> cheaper when you dont want t osee these
Dec 05 18:24:56 <blau-MikeDG> so when you deploy
Dec 05 18:25:06 <fadden> jasta: having the Object... is only the first part of it.  You still have to *do something* with what you created.
Dec 05 18:25:06 <mgross> 500 Server Errors from review.source.android.com.  Is this just me behind a firewall?
Dec 05 18:25:35 <fadden> I'm not saying "Object..." is faster than StringBuilder.  I'm saying logging built out of Object... is slower than logging built out of StringBuilder.
Dec 05 18:25:36 <jasta> fadden: i understood this discussion to be surrounding around reducing runtime performance for the debug off case.
Dec 05 18:25:36 <Disconnect> no its you using 'reply' on a comment instead of posting a new one :(
Dec 05 18:25:41 <Disconnect> (to mgross)
Dec 05 18:25:54 <marix> fadden, http://weblogs.asp.net/kdente/archive/2003/08/27/25579.aspx
Dec 05 18:26:06 <fadden> jasta: for non-debug case, "if (DEBUG) { Log.d() }" is going to win regardless of how logging is implemented.
Dec 05 18:26:21 <jasta> fadden: of course, but the var args approach is certainly a happy medium.
Dec 05 18:26:35 <mgross> Disconnect: nice bug.
Dec 05 18:26:49 <Disconnect> mgross: already filed a patch. its been accepted. so sometime eventually someday it'll get integrated
Dec 05 18:27:00 <jasta> no copies of your data will be necessary for the non-debug case, and you will only have to deal with small array allocations
Dec 05 18:27:03 <RyeBrye> well... if you really wanted to be crazy, you could say "debugging information is a cross cutting concern" and build up aspects to do all your debugging and have it weaved in by aspectj at compile time - then in your nondebug case just don't weave in that aspect
Dec 05 18:27:06 <marix> mgross he was on the ball yesterday
Dec 05 18:27:12 <Dougie187> hey jasta
Dec 05 18:27:18 <RyeBrye> not having an if (debug) check at all would always win ;)
Dec 05 18:27:21 <fadden> marix: that's for .net.  The javac output is exactly StringBuilder calls.  The only performance problem with javac's output is that it always uses the default constructor, which only allocates 16 chars.
Dec 05 18:27:22 <jasta> for teh debug case, i don't know why you'd care that much really.  excessive debugging is going to hurt performance no matter what you do
Dec 05 18:27:35 <Bonkz> Hey quick question... how do I add a phone number with its extension for a contact?
Dec 05 18:27:52 <andyross> fadden: yeah, but I think the point is that the development overhead of remembering all those tests just isn't worth it.  If the performance requirements really are that strict, you have other problems.  For sane code bases, a unified logging API just makes more sense.
Dec 05 18:28:09 <fadden> jasta: you have to create an Object[] and *copy* the arguments into it, possibly allocating additional Integers, Floats, etc.  Not a good idea.
Dec 05 18:28:52 <jasta> As I said, this is simply a compromise between the two.  It is always going to be better than using StringBuilder.
Dec 05 18:28:52 <andyross> Oh, stop it.  Unless you're logging in an inner loop, that's just not a reasonable performance impact (ZOMG, copying!). :)
Dec 05 18:28:59 <fadden> At some point it just makes more sense to write a Java preprocessor and get it over with. :-)
Dec 05 18:29:26 <andyross> Well, yeah.  I wouldn't argue there either.  But hacking at the toolchain is even harder.
Dec 05 18:29:28 <fadden> andyross: allocations in a UI loop mean GCs in a UI loop which means hiccups.
Dec 05 18:29:45 <jasta> that is a valid point.
Dec 05 18:29:48 * andyross hasn't ever seen UI code that doesn't allocate for everything anyway..
Dec 05 18:29:53 <blau-MikeDG> how do i put the emulator on batterypower?
Dec 05 18:30:29 <romainguy> andyross: and that's why it's nice to not add more allocations on top of that :)
Dec 05 18:30:50 <jasta> fadden: well i was just trying to be practical.  the var args solution is merely a compromise between using StringBuilder versus cutting out the branch entirely with a constant boolean.
Dec 05 18:31:06 <fadden> What would be really cool is if I got empty-method-call elimination fully working in "dexopt".  Then you could just "if (FOO)" the implementation of an alternate Log function, and when it didn't do anything all of the calls to it would get stubbed out.
Dec 05 18:31:07 <jasta> i personally prefer the latter.
Dec 05 18:31:34 <andyross> Now, that sounds cool.
Dec 05 18:31:39 <fadden> (right now we only stub out calls to Object.<init>)
Dec 05 18:31:46 <jasta> fadden: that would be nice.
Dec 05 18:32:08 <jasta> fadden: you would short circuit the method call so far as to not even produce the arguments, right?
Dec 05 18:32:28 <jasta> otherwise that doesnt help us :)
Dec 05 18:32:44 <andyross> Would only work for a final or static method, but it could be done.
Dec 05 18:32:46 <fadden> jasta: anything is possible with a sufficient amount of work. :-)
Dec 05 18:32:59 <fadden> andyross: "private" works too
Dec 05 18:33:08 <andyross> Ah, good point
Dec 05 18:33:09 <fadden> "static" doesn't
Dec 05 18:33:23 <jasta> fadden: hehe, of course.  well, i still don't mind if (FOO) {...} i suppose.
Dec 05 18:34:36 <fadden> I recommend sticking with the static final boolean.  It does exactly what you want and works everywhere.  Too bad it's so annoying.
Dec 05 18:34:37 * andyross is trying to think why a static method isn't uniquely identifiable in compiled code and can't...  Nothing indirects on the class...
Dec 05 18:35:00 <fadden> andyross: static methods can be defined in the superclass
Dec 05 18:35:28 <andyross> Sure, but they're still static.  The lookup happens (or can happen) at load time.  Just check the thing and elide the call if needed.
Dec 05 18:35:51 <fadden> At load time, the code is read-only, so we can share it between processes.
Dec 05 18:36:17 <fadden> We miss out on a handful of common optimizations because of this.
Dec 05 18:37:48 <jbq> fadden: but that's actually a massive optimization.
Dec 05 18:38:00 <fadden> jbq: ?
Dec 05 18:38:14 <jbq> read-only mmap of code
Dec 05 18:38:24 <fadden> Right.  That's not going away.
Dec 05 18:38:41 <fadden> The question is, at what point do the other optimizations become sufficiently interesting to warrant throwing memory at them?
Dec 05 18:39:06 <jbq> when phones have enough RAM, enough flash, and a fast enough pipe between the two? ;-)
Dec 05 18:39:09 <fadden> Case in point: we use an interface call cache to make invoke-interface faster.
Dec 05 18:39:31 <fadden> Normally you might drop a pointer to a small local cache at the interface call site, but we can't do that.
Dec 05 18:39:50 <fadden> So we have a per-DEX interface call cache that eats up about 1KB and has a 96+% hit rate.
Dec 05 18:40:04 <blau-MikeDG> sweet, almost got repeating alerts done!
Dec 05 18:40:06 <blau-MikeDG> booyah
Dec 05 18:40:11 <fadden> Having a lookaside for invoke-static... not so worthwhile.
Dec 05 18:40:16 <andyross> Not sure I'm following there: the optimization in question is a lookup of an application-specific flag that is going to be in the same dx file as the test.  For logging specifically, there's no need for cross-file tests and optimizations.
Dec 05 18:40:25 <jbq> I'm being a bit facetious, of course, mostly because I don't know the gory details (and I'm lucky that we have people who take care of that).
Dec 05 18:40:40 <fadden> andyross: the superclass of class C could be in a different DEX.
Dec 05 18:40:55 <fadden> In fact, it could be in more than one DEX, and each app could load a different one.
Dec 05 18:41:12 <andyross> Sure, in which case you don't do it.  But again, the overwhelmingly common use case is a simple class with a static logging function or two and a static const flag.
Dec 05 18:41:13 <fadden> So for a given call site, we can't know statically where the static method call is going to go.
Dec 05 18:41:34 <andyross> You don't have to be able to optimize every posible edge case for an optimization to be worthwhile.
Dec 05 18:41:50 <fadden> andyross: no, but we can't get it wrong and crash.
Dec 05 18:42:06 <fadden> It doesn't have to optimize every case, but it has to work correctly in every case.
Dec 05 18:42:16 <snadge> when i run su from adb shell, it says permission denied. what am i doing wrong?
Dec 05 18:42:25 <fadden> So if at "dexopt" time I can't know that what I'm doing will always work in all situations, I can't do it.
Dec 05 18:42:33 <snadge> its an rc28 phone
Dec 05 18:42:39 <fadden> This leads to some really fun situations; see the comments at the top of dalvik/vm/oo/Class.c.
Dec 05 18:43:01 <andyross> Right.  Again: the test is to do the function lookup at load/convert/optimize/whatever time.  If it's to a method in the same file, recurse into the generation for that method and, if it's a noop, elide the call and argument generation.  I'm not saying this might not be complicated, but it's absolutely not something that's impossible.
Dec 05 18:44:03 <fadden> andyross: having an implementation in the same DEX does not guarantee that the implementation will be the one actually used.
Dec 05 18:44:15 <_zippy> :D
Dec 05 18:44:16 <fadden> Class loaders can pull classes out of wherever they feel like, or generate them on the fly.
Dec 05 18:44:47 <fadden> There's some code in the VM that basically says, "I'm making some assumptions about where this class comes from.  If those assumptions don't hold true at runtime, throw an exception at runtime."
Dec 05 18:44:50 <RyeBrye> compile-time weaving of debug methods using aspectJ prior to davlik converting to dex works, right? so if you really wanted to have debugging stuff only enabled in debug builds - you could split it out into aspects and only have it weaved in if you are doing a "debug" build... http://www.christianschenk.org/blog/logging-with-aspectj/
Dec 05 18:44:53 <vol> What is the point of having an onDestroy method for Activities?
Dec 05 18:44:59 <fadden> There's a guy on one of the mailing lists who actually managed to run afoul of this in the last few days. :-)
Dec 05 18:45:02 <andyross> But it *does* if it's a static/final/private method.   There's no mechanism in the Java spec I'm aware of to rejigger the class namespace post-load.  (Also: now that I think about it, you can't just elide argument generation if they have side effects, so there needs to be some analysis done there too)
Dec 05 18:45:10 <RyeBrye> err... dalvik doesn't convert to dex, but oyu get my point
Dec 05 18:46:14 <fadden> andyross: the class comes from wherever the class loader wants it to come from.  The only really safe assumption is if it's a call within the same class, so "private" works but nothing else does.
Dec 05 18:46:47 <fadden> For all you know, the class loader is generating every single class on the fly.
Dec 05 18:47:19 * RyeBrye stands by aspect weaving for logging. especially since you can have one aspect make the worlds most detailed log and weave it into whatever you want with ease, and have the same code log all your classes... etc. 
Dec 05 18:47:29 <andyross> I think we're talking past each other.  All the information the class loader needs to make that determination is available (maybe not architecturally, but in principle) at load time.  I think you're looking at doing this without involving the class loader; I'm just saying it could be done.
Dec 05 18:47:33 <fadden> RyeBrye: java pre-processors like ProGuard should work fine.
Dec 05 18:48:01 <RyeBrye> fadden:  what about aspectJ? the conversion goes from java bytecode -> dex bytecode, right?
Dec 05 18:48:04 <fadden> andyross: I am looking at this without involving the class loader.  I have to -- this has to be done when "dexopt" converts the APK into optimized dex form.
Dec 05 18:48:16 <fadden> Past that point it's all read-only and can't be altered.
Dec 05 18:48:32 <fadden> If you want to do it at load time, you have to record the decisions in a way that the interpreter can see them.
Dec 05 18:48:49 <fadden> Which means additional memory required and some performance impact on the interpreter.
Dec 05 18:49:12 <fadden> RyeBrye: "dx" converts Java classfiles into DEX, so anything that's a valid Java class file should convert.
Dec 05 18:49:27 <fadden> We have seen some tools that generate non-compliant classfiles though.
Dec 05 18:49:28 <jbq> fadden: would it help if an apk said "I promise not to involve nasty class loaders"?
Dec 05 18:49:47 <fadden> jbq: and I should trust the APK why? :-)
Dec 05 18:50:18 <jbq> fadden: how much harm could it do beyond crashing the VM in the app's process? (yes, I'm naive)
Dec 05 18:50:29 <andyross> Or conversely, bless the standard class loader and optimize for it, with a fallback generation path if a dx file gets references from a different one.
Dec 05 18:50:56 <fadden> jbq: it can cause some seriously weird behavior that could be hard to figure out.
Dec 05 18:51:08 <fadden> No security risks, of course, since we don't rely on that.
Dec 05 18:51:38 <fadden> I wrote up most of this in dalvik/docs/dexopt.html
Dec 05 18:51:39 <andyross> Or hell, just deprecate non-standard class loaders.  There isn't a useful user-visible implementation in Dalvik anyway.
Dec 05 18:51:41 <jbq> fadden: "try without the extradexopt flag in your manifest, and if that fixes your problem that's your fix"?
Dec 05 18:52:23 <RyeBrye> So runtime modification of bytecode is not on the plate any time soon?
Dec 05 18:52:30 <fadden> andyross: PathClassLoader is user visible.  "useful" is questionable in 1.0.
Dec 05 18:52:33 <unix_lappy> is the G1 screen glass?
Dec 05 18:52:43 <xsdg> unix_lappy: yes
Dec 05 18:52:43 <jbq> (admittedly that doesn't really work, because some future optimizations might introduce new breakages).
Dec 05 18:52:57 <xsdg> unix_lappy: (that is, it has a glass layer, in addition to other layers)
Dec 05 18:52:57 <andyross> Sorry, I meant user-extensible.  Obviously the official ones can be supported and optimized for.
Dec 05 18:53:24 <unix_lappy> xsdg: i mean the outermost layer.
Dec 05 18:53:29 <fadden> The trouble with the 1.0 class loaders is that there's no way to load stuff that wasn't installed by the system.
Dec 05 18:53:58 <andyross> unix_lappy: The outer layer feels like lexan to me.  Definitely not glass, unless it's a *really* think layer.
Dec 05 18:54:03 <andyross> er, thin
Dec 05 18:54:20 <fadden> RyeBrye: depends on what you want to do.
Dec 05 18:54:24 <jbq> fadden: could the VM be explicitly made to immediately barf if non-standard class loaders were used in the same package as extra-opt apks?
Dec 05 18:54:49 <RyeBrye> fadden: how about something like cglib on Android?
Dec 05 18:55:08 <RyeBrye> fadden: - runtime aspect weaving would be one use case I can see
Dec 05 18:56:02 <fadden> jbq: the application framework uses a user-defined class loader
Dec 05 18:56:22 <fadden> I'd rather not tie the VM to Android framework implementation details.
Dec 05 18:56:28 <vol> so, to ask again, what is the point of onDestroy in the Activity? Is it just as useless as the destructors of java elements?
Dec 05 18:56:31 <jbq> ack! my master plan for world domination gets foiled again!
Dec 05 18:56:58 <fadden> RyeBrye: there's a difference between code generation and modifying app code from an APK
Dec 05 18:57:09 <fadden> Code generation is something we'd like to support.
Dec 05 18:57:15 <Phlogi> when will flash be available?
Dec 05 18:57:22 <andyross> vol: AFAICT, onPause() is the only truly reliable shutdown hint.  After it returns, you're eligible for termination.  The others are at best hints about how likely you are to be terminated.  Maybe.
Dec 05 18:57:44 <vol> I suppose, but what is there really to do?
Dec 05 18:57:46 <jbq> vol: the point is to clean up things that you might have allocated in onCreate()
Dec 05 18:58:15 <vol> jbq: but why haven't I already cleaned them up in onStop at the latest?
Dec 05 18:58:41 <andyross> Yeah, so: "please be small and I might not kill you". :)    Or just leave everything active, pickle yourself in onPause(), and let the reaper come.
Dec 05 18:58:50 <vol> I mean, if I press the home button, onStop gets called, and it doesn't go to onStart, it goes to onCreate when I choose it again from the menu.
Dec 05 18:59:06 <jbq> Because those things might be expensive enough to create and cheap enough to keep around that it could make sense to keep them actoss start/stop.
Dec 05 18:59:19 <vol> mmm.
Dec 05 18:59:37 <andyross> jbq: Right, but the whole point here is that "across start/stop" has almost no meaning.  You just have to guess when they're going to be called.
Dec 05 18:59:45 <vol> I suppose it's more a question of whether the user minimized (nicer than "killed") us, or just opened another activity
Dec 05 18:59:52 <unix_lappy> btw, apparently the wal-mart 150 dollar G1 isnt real.  checked last night.
Dec 05 19:00:19 <ctate> vol: see also onRetainNonConfigurationInstance()
Dec 05 19:00:37 <vol> orly
Dec 05 19:00:44 <ctate> note that you can get stopped on orientation changes
Dec 05 19:00:46 <ctate> transiently
Dec 05 19:00:56 <jbq> vol: to be honest, a big part of the reason is for symmetry. Some of the functions in the teardown sequence indeed aren't likely to be very useful. But it's better to have them and not use them than not have them and actually need them.
Dec 05 19:00:59 <vol> yeah, I know, that's causing minor trouble for us :P
Dec 05 19:01:08 <vol> I suppose that's a good point
Dec 05 19:01:17 <Disconnect> unix_lappy: we knew that weeks ago tho
Dec 05 19:01:37 <vol> ctate: that's a very long method name I must say
Dec 05 19:01:40 <ctate> and you cannot also assume that your activity will not be stopped -- even if it's in front -- when the screen is turned off
Dec 05 19:01:48 <ctate> vol: that's what autocomplete is for :)
Dec 05 19:02:05 <dd94300> what does this error mean? HeapWorker is wedged: 510883ms; .finalize()V
Dec 05 19:02:47 <fadden> dd94300: it means a finalizer is still running after 8+ minutes.
Dec 05 19:03:24 <fadden> There may be a stack dump in the log file; near the end of it you should see the HeapWorker thread.
Dec 05 19:04:30 <blau-MikeDG> got repeating alerts working mostly
Dec 05 19:04:30 <fadden> If you want to pastebin the "adb logcat" output I'll look at it.
Dec 05 19:04:30 <blau-MikeDG> whee
Dec 05 19:04:54 <ctate> vol: if it helps you -- onRetainNonConfigurationInstance() is explicitly for helping the activity propagate expensive-to-reconstruct data across the stop/start process of an orientation change.  don't use it for anything layout-dependant, of course, but there you go.
Dec 05 19:04:57 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: harr harr...
Dec 05 19:05:02 <Phlogi> Installed your app already
Dec 05 19:05:14 <Phlogi> will I be notified if there is a newer version of an installed app?
Dec 05 19:05:56 <vol> ctate: Hmm, that could be extremely helpful to me actually
Dec 05 19:06:06 <ctate> :D
Dec 05 19:06:20 <dd94300> thanks fadden, i see the DALVIK THREADS dump
Dec 05 19:06:24 <vol> depending on whether it will help me keep around C threads loaded via native calls
Dec 05 19:06:44 <blau-MikeDG> phlogi: yup, it might take a day or two, sometimes, i kno wmy phone caches the version info for some reason
Dec 05 19:07:00 <blau-MikeDG> most other people ive talked to get alerted to the version change really quickly
Dec 05 19:07:02 <Disconnect> Phlogi: there is no update notification
Dec 05 19:07:15 <Disconnect> rather, none built in
Dec 05 19:07:17 <Disconnect> each app might have one :)
Dec 05 19:07:19 <ctate> vol: yeah, that sounds like something you definitely want to at least look into.  my off-the-cuff hunch is that it will work, but i haven't used that facility myself much and can't promise it.
Dec 05 19:07:27 <blau-MikeDG> phlogi: the existing version is fairly finnicky, the new version should fix that too
Dec 05 19:07:43 <blau-MikeDG> so dont get dissapointed, if the screen fails to turn on all the time or vibration is wonky, im rpetty sure i fixed it
Dec 05 19:08:04 <vol> ctate: the (slightly) annoying thing is that an incoming call we can recover from, but flipping the screen kills us. I'm not sure if that's because of our shitty, half stubbed out view or what.
Dec 05 19:08:23 <Disconnect> hmm. is it me or does the marketplace not show app size?
Dec 05 19:08:27 <ctate> incoming call just brings up a new activity or shuffles it in front of you
Dec 05 19:08:29 <vol> but if it's not because we have an extremly poorly written view (which is being fixed a bit), and it's because onStop kills our native thread...
Dec 05 19:08:37 <ctate> orientation change does a much more thorough stop/start dance
Dec 05 19:08:41 <vol> yeah
Dec 05 19:10:50 <marix> disconnect,  its been like that since atleast rc30
Dec 05 19:12:12 <Phlogi> blau-MikeDG: hehe no problem, thanks in advance
Dec 05 19:12:20 <marix> atleast,  i think it has...
Dec 05 19:14:21 <marix> I wonder if the g1 could broadcast a bluetooth gps profile.  that would be rad.
Dec 05 19:20:48 <snadge> my trackball isnt rolling left anymore, is this likely a hardware fault?
Dec 05 19:21:18 <Disconnect> or its dirty
Dec 05 19:21:37 <eldenz> nice
Dec 05 19:21:38 <wasabi> So... any new android phones yet?
Dec 05 19:21:41 <eldenz> oops wrong chan
Dec 05 19:21:43 <snadge> i pushed a recovery image with adb, as per instructions for
Dec 05 19:22:11 <snadge> installing JFZ's rc30
Dec 05 19:22:24 <wasabi> I have 10 days till my verizon contract is up, and i want a new phone.
Dec 05 19:22:32 <wasabi> and i want to avoid t-mobile. heh
Dec 05 19:22:41 <snadge> it physically rolls left, the software juwst doesnt get it
Dec 05 19:23:03 <vol> ctate: Ah, stupid me!
Dec 05 19:23:08 <vol> http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/R.attr.html#configChanges
Dec 05 19:23:14 <vol> rotating the screen calls onDestroy
Dec 05 19:23:19 <vol> I'm going to have to try and handle this myself
Dec 05 19:23:41 <unix_lappy> wasabi: most big names are saying Q3 09
Dec 05 19:23:42 <vol> also, I have no idea what is meant by "The navigation type has changed"
Dec 05 19:23:53 <unix_lappy> so if you can wait 6-9months.
Dec 05 19:24:05 <wasabi> darnit.
Dec 05 19:24:15 <wasabi> my current phone is getting to the unusable poit
Dec 05 19:25:00 <grey-> wasabi: that australian one looks awesome IMNSHO.
Dec 05 19:25:09 <grey-> wasabi: http://www.kogan.com.au/shop/android-powered-kogan-agora-pro-mobile-phone/
Dec 05 19:25:19 <grey-> $399 AUD is even less in USD.
Dec 05 19:25:19 <blau-MikeDG> yeah drooool
Dec 05 19:25:33 <wasabi> I'd get a import.
Dec 05 19:25:37 <wasabi> If it had like, AT&T freqs
Dec 05 19:25:43 <blau-MikeDG> up to $40 made, almost on my way to that australian phone :)
Dec 05 19:25:59 <wasabi> i do like the current tmobile form actually
Dec 05 19:26:56 <unix_lappy> that phone looks vaporware-ish / cheap.
Dec 05 19:27:19 <blau-MikeDG> the cheap scares me
Dec 05 19:27:23 <blau-MikeDG> but isnt this a legit aussie company
Dec 05 19:27:27 <luok> ugh tmo won't let me exchange colors on the g1
Dec 05 19:27:30 <luok> stupid bronze keyboard
Dec 05 19:27:40 <unix_lappy> luok: why'd you get broze in the first place?
Dec 05 19:27:42 <blau-MikeDG> luok: if you are wthin 14 days just return it
Dec 05 19:27:54 <unix_lappy> yea, pay the 10 dollars and get a new one.
Dec 05 19:27:59 <luok> unix_lappy: i thought it was cooler, looked fine in the store
Dec 05 19:28:10 <luok> blau-MikeDG: ah stupid sales bitch i told her it was only a week
Dec 05 19:28:19 <luok> i think they're just trying to keep hold of white ones looked like they just got em in
Dec 05 19:28:24 <AstainHellbring> the specs on that badger include att us3g
Dec 05 19:28:25 * unix_lappy thinks #android needs a top ten apps poll.
Dec 05 19:28:28 <unix_lappy> (google docs style)
Dec 05 19:28:58 <blau-MikeDG> top 4 would be fine too
Dec 05 19:28:59 <blau-MikeDG> dgAlert, dgAway, dgQuickCut, dgMoney
Dec 05 19:29:20 <RyeBrye> and dgPlugDgApps ;)
Dec 05 19:30:18 <sparkle> the handycalc app is tres nif
Dec 05 19:30:45 <eldenz> indeed
Dec 05 19:30:54 <eldenz> great ui
Dec 05 19:30:56 <unix_lappy> hmm, i'm guessing you cant uninstall the default calendar app?
Dec 05 19:31:17 <unix_lappy> erm, calculator*
Dec 05 19:31:59 <eldenz> blau-MikeDG, have you tried Ca$hFlow?
Dec 05 19:32:02 * sparkle nods
Dec 05 19:32:04 <sparkle> hm
Dec 05 19:32:11 <sparkle> the browser can't handle file: urls, can it?
Dec 05 19:32:13 <Disconnect> wow. snowglobe is really the g1 killer app
Dec 05 19:32:21 <sparkle> it would be nice to be able to stuff some html docs on the sdcard
Dec 05 19:32:34 <blau-MikeDG> eldenz: yeah i did
Dec 05 19:32:44 <unix_lappy> sparkle: a lot of things would be nice, imho, it's still a beta device.
Dec 05 19:32:46 <RyeBrye> can the browser handle data: urls?
Dec 05 19:32:46 <blau-MikeDG> i didnt like the ui
Dec 05 19:32:52 <sparkle> sure
Dec 05 19:32:54 <blau-MikeDG> what did you think of cash flow
Dec 05 19:33:04 <eldenz> blau-MikeDG, i haven't looked at dgMoney now but i will :)
Dec 05 19:33:08 <sparkle> i'm running a webserver on mine i can hit from localhost but that's a real hack :p
Dec 05 19:33:22 <sparkle> and there are plenty of doctors who would like to hit a local pdr or similar, stuff like that
Dec 05 19:33:34 <eldenz> blau-MikeDG, i think it's nice, has a few drawbacks (like enter key does not add, no way to insert amount w/o keyboard)
Dec 05 19:33:38 <RyeBrye> if my doctor has to use his phone to diagnose me, I want a refund
Dec 05 19:34:02 <unix_lappy> RyeBrye: what do you think primary care physicians are?
Dec 05 19:34:18 <unix_lappy> just reference docs with a very good query system and a very large liability insurance policy.
Dec 05 19:34:34 <blau-MikeDG> it needs improvements on the color scheme, black on dakr green is awful
Dec 05 19:34:35 <RyeBrye> yeah, true... the pill 'em and bill 'em docs?
Dec 05 19:34:50 <blau-MikeDG> Date and Time "buttons" are horribly small and dont actually look like buttons
Dec 05 19:35:11 * sparkle nods
Dec 05 19:35:14 <blau-MikeDG> i did like the today, this week, this month thing though
Dec 05 19:35:25 <herriojr> are you guys talking about keeping the person's medical history on their phone?  That way it isn't centralized?
Dec 05 19:35:27 <unix_lappy> RyeBrye: why do you think europeans have you wait to see a doctor for free.
Dec 05 19:35:56 <blau-MikeDG> dgMoney sorta has a way to enter without keyboard, if you double tap in the payee box, itll let you select a previous payee and autopopulate
Dec 05 19:35:59 <herriojr> so then a doctor can scan it or whatever to see your medical history
Dec 05 19:36:00 <unix_lappy> can be up to a week to get shoulder pain diagnosed and checked out.
Dec 05 19:36:02 <herriojr> that would be kinda cool
Dec 05 19:36:39 <blau-MikeDG> i feel like cashflow had to come from another operating system
Dec 05 19:36:39 <RyeBrye> Disconnect: I beg to differ. That snowglobe app doesn't even use GPS / barcode scanner / camera / full internet access / compass / accelerometer - therefore it is disqualified from running
Dec 05 19:36:53 <blau-MikeDG> the interface is too weird to have been developed for android
Dec 05 19:36:58 <herriojr> anyone else use vmware?  does the vmware-vdiskmanager utility come with VMWare Workstation 6?
Dec 05 19:37:09 <RyeBrye> (plus, it kind of sucks - I was hoping for something that would move snow around as I shook it)
Dec 05 19:37:15 * sparkle chuckles
Dec 05 19:37:21 <sparkle> i want gesture based unlocking
Dec 05 19:37:38 <sparkle> so if i snap the handset back like a flipphone or star trek communicator, it unlocks
Dec 05 19:37:43 <marix> ryebrye wants some physics up in that
Dec 05 19:37:49 <blau-MikeDG> sparkle: like draw a number in the air and it unlocks :)
Dec 05 19:37:54 <sparkle> heh too complicated
Dec 05 19:38:01 <sparkle> just a sharp movement that wouldn't be triggered accidentally
Dec 05 19:38:03 <RyeBrye> no, make a Zoro slash with the phone to unlock it
Dec 05 19:38:05 <sparkle> that can be done one-handed
Dec 05 19:38:06 <sparkle> lol
Dec 05 19:38:16 <Disconnect> yah there is that
Dec 05 19:38:30 <eldenz> <3 Zoro
Dec 05 19:38:32 <RyeBrye> Or maybe voice recognition to unlock? "By the power of Greyskull..."
Dec 05 19:38:34 <blau-MikeDG> bowling throw unlock
Dec 05 19:38:38 <Disconnect> taking anything at all as input would be nice. instead of just waiting for you to turn it upsidedown and then saying "ok its snowing"
Dec 05 19:38:45 <blau-MikeDG> what about a throw unlock, you throw it 5 ft high
Dec 05 19:38:56 <sparkle> just make it trainable
Dec 05 19:38:59 <sparkle> then you can do whatever
Dec 05 19:38:59 <RyeBrye> throw to unlock would be awesome
Dec 05 19:39:11 <RyeBrye> Or throw to call people - different distances = different people
Dec 05 19:39:12 <Disconnect> lol
Dec 05 19:39:20 <RyeBrye> or different number of rotations in the air = different people
Dec 05 19:39:30 <blau-MikeDG> spin the bottle!
Dec 05 19:39:34 <RyeBrye> you could be like a flare bartender with your phone - but instead of serving drinks you'd be reaching out and touching someone
Dec 05 19:39:39 <jbq> problem with "throw-to-unlock" (and many other fun schemes) is the battery usage.
Dec 05 19:39:44 <RyeBrye> Yes, spin the bottle would be hilarous :)
Dec 05 19:39:59 * sparkle nods
Dec 05 19:40:05 <sparkle> yeah you want to conserve power while sleeping
Dec 05 19:40:27 <blau-MikeDG> i like throw to dial
Dec 05 19:40:32 <RyeBrye> jbq - you could use one of these and make it a big numchuck http://www.tangshop.com/universal-external-battery-powerbox.html
Dec 05 19:40:34 <blau-MikeDG> 2 flips and a push
Dec 05 19:40:45 <jbq> lol
Dec 05 19:40:51 <sparkle> while facing north-northeast
Dec 05 19:40:53 <Disconnect> the problem with throw-to-unlock is catching it
Dec 05 19:41:05 <Disconnect> i am damned if i'm chasing my phone all over the freakin office
Dec 05 19:41:06 <blau-MikeDG> throw to order new phone!
Dec 05 19:41:13 <RyeBrye> :)
Dec 05 19:41:18 <RyeBrye> While it's in the air, of course
Dec 05 19:41:19 <blau-MikeDG> if the phone is moving too fast, it automatically orders you a new phone
Dec 05 19:41:30 <RyeBrye> If it detects the throw is above a certain distance, it orders a new one before it lands and breaks itself
Dec 05 19:41:31 <RyeBrye> BRILILANT
Dec 05 19:41:42 <RyeBrye> and it does so using an affiliate link so the dev gets $ :)
Dec 05 19:42:07 <unix_lappy> has anyone able to consistently get a GPS lock?  watching some GPS demo's and they are not doing very well.
Dec 05 19:42:09 <famast> is it possible to put one imageview on top of another
Dec 05 19:42:09 <blau-MikeDG> noone has purchased anything from my amazon links on my webpage :(
Dec 05 19:42:10 <dd94300> is it possible for my application to search into the device if there is any video player is installed?
Dec 05 19:42:11 * sparkle chuckles
Dec 05 19:42:25 <RyeBrye> unix_lappy:  if I have a clear view of the sky the GPS lock works well
Dec 05 19:42:30 <sparkle> how about speed-based profiles
Dec 05 19:42:34 <blau-MikeDG> ive had 14 clicks though!
Dec 05 19:42:42 <famast> unix_lappy: I've had a mostly good experience with the GPS, all though it has put me in the middle of the ocean before
Dec 05 19:42:45 <sparkle> eg: if i'm going over 40mph, it turns the ringer up to max
Dec 05 19:42:48 <unix_lappy> RyeBrye: as in through a window.
Dec 05 19:42:53 <unix_lappy> or outside.
Dec 05 19:43:09 <RyeBrye> unix_lappy:  - either works for me
Dec 05 19:43:22 <RyeBrye> unix_lappy: once I have a fix it can hold onto it ok inside it seems
Dec 05 19:43:30 <RyeBrye> or at least it thinks it does - probably just lies
Dec 05 19:44:43 <eldenz> blau-MikeDG, looks great :) guess i'll be using that instead of ca$hflow, expect some feedback in a few days^
Dec 05 19:44:53 <Disconnect> is it me or is hashtags.org always broken? :(
Dec 05 19:45:10 <sparkle> actually hm
Dec 05 19:45:16 <sparkle> what's the best "file manager" people have found?
Dec 05 19:45:19 <eldenz> blau-MikeDG, is it possible to get this week's/month's spending?
Dec 05 19:45:26 <RyeBrye> market should have stats for most uninstalled apps too ;)
Dec 05 19:45:29 <dd94300> i think my question went out of focus, let me ask it again.........
Dec 05 19:45:34 <dd94300> is it possible for my application to search into the device if there is any video player is installed?
Dec 05 19:45:36 <sparkle> ideally something that will let me view and edit text and at least view images
Dec 05 19:45:57 <RyeBrye> dd94300: fire an intent to play video and if you get an exception or whatever you ahve your answer?
Dec 05 19:47:02 <jbq> dd94300: there are APIs to ask the package manager if there's a handler for a given intent (in fact you can get the list of all activities).
Dec 05 19:47:46 <luok> blau-MikeDG: do your apps update themselves?
Dec 05 19:48:03 <dd94300> Ryebrye and jbq, i am beginner, can u give me little more detail, or link so i can study........
Dec 05 19:48:15 <jbq> http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/packages/providers/DownloadProvider.git;a=blob;f=src/com/android/providers/downloads/Helpers.java;h=f966a7f56577e65a4a99e278273c82c5a159ae0b;hb=refs/heads/master#l120
Dec 05 19:49:52 <dd94300> thanks jbq and RyeBrye
Dec 05 19:50:24 <jbq> dd94300: you might get more help for programming questions in #android-dev, BTW.
Dec 05 19:51:18 <dd94300> thanks for the info jbq, i will join right now
Dec 05 19:55:57 <blau-MikeDG> luok: they have notifiers when there is a new update
Dec 05 19:56:11 <luok> ah
Dec 05 19:56:32 <luok> hmm tmo still saying i can't return..is that true if i bought the phone w/ a 2 yr contract
Dec 05 19:56:35 <blau-MikeDG> eldenz: no way currently, its in the works though, you can export to qif though, noones told me if that has worked well though :/
Dec 05 19:56:46 <eldenz> i dunno qif
Dec 05 19:57:04 <blau-MikeDG> its the old quicken format, i should just support csv tho
Dec 05 19:57:28 <blau-MikeDG> the only reason i supported qif was that its how i could easily get all my spending info from my palm os app to my app
Dec 05 19:57:55 <blau-MikeDG> eld: bug me for weekly monthly spending the next few days
Dec 05 19:58:03 <blau-MikeDG> and ill get it, dgMoney is due for a new release soon
Dec 05 19:58:06 <eldenz> : )
Dec 05 19:58:07 <eldenz> cool
Dec 05 19:58:13 <blau-MikeDG> i have a few updates sitting on my hd
Dec 05 19:58:30 <blau-MikeDG> but some other stuff i havent cleaned up is floating around so i havent put a new release out
Dec 05 19:58:52 <blau-MikeDG> feel free to email me any ideas, updates, suggestions
Dec 05 19:59:00 <eldenz> blau-MikeDG, cool, will definitely use it then. if it has a way to browse past months/weeks and also current week's/month's total
Dec 05 19:59:42 <ralpht> does anybody use eclipse to work on the android framework itself? I'
Dec 05 19:59:45 <ralpht> m tired of using vim
Dec 05 19:59:59 <blau-MikeDG> just put out a new version of dgAway
Dec 05 20:00:26 <blau-MikeDG> i wish the market allowed more than 325 characters
Dec 05 20:00:41 <eldenz> blau-MikeDG, predefined items would be nice aswell (like coffee, automatically adds to correct account with amount)
Dec 05 20:01:05 <eldenz> you could incorporate that into the Schedule items though
Dec 05 20:01:11 <blau-MikeDG> eld: its there sorta, it really needs a manual
Dec 05 20:01:16 <blau-MikeDG> ill talk to you privately to explain
Dec 05 20:05:41 <wastrel> what's dgaway
Dec 05 20:07:47 <blau-MikeDG> dgaway, ,lets you set auto responses via sms to missed calls, sms's
Dec 05 20:07:54 <blau-MikeDG> or forward call alerts or all sms's to another number
Dec 05 20:20:51 <marix> it seems like all the android news/blog  sites are not very good... whats up w/ that
Dec 05 20:21:16 <blau-MikeDG> make a good one!
Dec 05 20:21:25 <luok> yeah android rumors!
Dec 05 20:22:03 <marix> i will,  but first i need to watch starwars a few times for some solid "droids" jokes
Dec 05 20:23:46 <anno^da_> romainguy_: are you awake?
Dec 05 20:25:49 <unix_lappy> probably tired from getting the IMF out for an early release ;-P
Dec 05 20:27:07 <anno^da_> :)
Dec 05 20:27:30 <anno^da_> So I have to wait for a way to identify missed calls :)
Dec 05 20:32:51 <ethyr2000> hello all.  I've noticed more apps are "informing" browser that file types are supported.  Is there a way to just save unsupported files to sd?
Dec 05 20:33:42 <vininim_> so, anyone trying last sean image on freerunner?
Dec 05 20:34:37 <vol> ethyr2000: boy, don't I wish : (
Dec 05 20:37:09 <ethyr2000> I find that's my biggest frustration w/browser
Dec 05 20:37:35 <luok> heh why on earth is handycalc 2mb
Dec 05 20:38:04 <luok> rpncalc ftw!
Dec 05 20:38:09 <ethyr2000> even if I can't view a pdf.. let me save it for later
Dec 05 20:38:22 <RyeBrye> I still want an HP48G or HP50G emulator
Dec 05 20:38:23 <luok> hm yeah they don't give dl button for pdf
Dec 05 20:39:58 <ethyr2000> I'm testing JetCET PDF .. allow download of pdf and viewing.. but they'll charge about $20 for it
Dec 05 20:40:35 <luok> does email app work any differently?
Dec 05 20:41:36 <vol> ethyr2000: my biggest annoyance is that gmail won't let me attach anything but pictures
Dec 05 20:41:40 <vol> I mean, really : \
Dec 05 20:43:25 <unix_lappy> ethyr2000: i can understand why (pdf isnt exactly a proper portable web format), even then the option to download and upload to google docs would be nice.
Dec 05 20:43:45 <luok> portable document format isn't portable?
Dec 05 20:43:55 <vol> you ever try opening acrobat reader?
Dec 05 20:44:03 <vol> the sun freezes before it opens
Dec 05 20:44:07 <luok> foxit pdf reader ftw
Dec 05 20:44:08 <vol> now imagine it on android
Dec 05 20:44:09 <luok> screw acrobat
Dec 05 20:44:11 <vol> I know
Dec 05 20:44:13 <vol> I use that : )
Dec 05 20:44:23 <luok> so yeah, its quite portable enough
Dec 05 20:44:42 <luok> and it *really* doesn't require that many resources
Dec 05 20:59:10 <ethyr2000> whew... made it back
Dec 05 21:07:28 <vininim_> lol, how to answer call(in FreeRunner)? =P
Dec 05 21:08:07 <luok> hm is there any way to keep the num pad from disappearing while in a call?
Dec 05 21:13:35 <gambler> vininim_, I heard at the moment you can't answer
Dec 05 21:15:12 <herriojr> I love google adds on websites: when viewing a site about some harddrive partitioning, I got an add for www.JackNob.com which is a site for Toilet stuff
Dec 05 21:17:32 <vininim_> gambler: the lastest image has a keyboard, but green-phone key doesn't seem to work
Dec 05 21:18:20 <gambler> vininim_, where is the latest image? since I will hae my G1 and freerunners in a few days
Dec 05 21:18:51 <vininim_> http://people.openmoko.org/sean_mcneil/
Dec 05 21:18:55 <vininim_> that is for freerunner
Dec 05 21:31:32 <ctate> vol: belated,  onRetainNonConfigurationInstance() lets you retain activity data across *destroy*, doesn't it? not just stop/start?
Dec 05 21:31:58 <ctate> that's certainly the implication of http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/app/Activity.html#onRetainNonConfigurationInstance()
Dec 05 21:36:49 <ctate> (yeah, that's right.  it's called as part of the destroy/relaunch sequence around configuration changes)
Dec 05 21:40:35 <unix_lappy> is it possible to change an icon when an intent is fired?
Dec 05 21:40:58 <unix_lappy> on the home screen or in the dock.
Dec 05 21:42:58 <vol> ctate: yes, that's what it seems
Dec 05 21:43:07 <vol> but preventing destruction in the first place works significantly better
Dec 05 21:43:14 <vol> to the point that I can now pop out the keyboard and start typing :P
Dec 05 21:43:22 <ctate> true, although of course you then need to handle your own orientation changes
Dec 05 21:43:27 <ctate> tradeoffs, tradeoffs :)
Dec 05 21:43:34 <vol> that's more than ok with us
Dec 05 21:43:44 <vol> because we'd need to tell the C graphics engine that we've changed resolution
Dec 05 21:43:53 <vol> so we need to do it anyway
Dec 05 21:44:07 <ctate> [the reason for the full destroy/relaunch is that it's quite possible for the basic layout and resource-finding code to wind up looking at different data based on the orientations.  that's huge.]
Dec 05 21:44:30 <vol> ctate: we have exactly 1 view, which takes up the entire screen
Dec 05 21:44:38 <vol> and we don't use anything like strings.xml
Dec 05 21:44:40 <ctate> oh!
Dec 05 21:44:51 <vol> we're pretty much just writing a wrapper around a native c++ program : ()
Dec 05 21:44:53 <vol> : )
Dec 05 21:44:56 <ctate> stuff that then; just declare that you're going to do it yourself, get your onConfigurationChanged() callback, etc.
Dec 05 21:45:01 <vol> yeah
Dec 05 21:45:09 <vol> actually, views get onMeasure calls regardless
Dec 05 21:45:09 <ctate> that's what the browser does, for example
Dec 05 21:56:16 <herriojr> so, when I do: repo start mybranch && repo status nothing is displayed, not even an error...is there a repo bug?
Dec 05 21:56:42 <jbq> that's normal
Dec 05 21:57:06 <jbq> repo behaves like a "traditional" unix tool and stays silent if there's nothing to report.
Dec 05 21:57:08 <herriojr> android docs says my branch is supposed to be displayed
Dec 05 21:57:26 <herriojr> or I guess I misread it
Dec 05 21:57:27 <jbq> it only displays the branch for the projects in which you modify something.
Dec 05 21:57:34 <herriojr> ok
Dec 05 21:57:34 <jbq> Do a minor edit in a file, and retry.
Dec 05 21:58:46 <herriojr> it says to do a git checkout branchname, but I get the error: "fatal: Not a git repository"
Dec 05 21:59:48 <jbq> I'm not a git/repo expert at all. It tends to work fine for me, and I don't know how to debug things when they go wrong.
Dec 05 22:00:13 <jbq> You could try to email repo-discuss.
Dec 05 22:00:15 <herriojr> ok, no problem, I just wanted to see if someone knows, so I didn't have to spend an hour trying to figure it out :)
Dec 05 22:01:20 <romainguy> unix_lappy: is it possible to change an icon when an intent is fired? << no, not for now, I want to support this eventually though
Dec 05 22:02:58 <blau-MikeDG> what do you mean icon?
Dec 05 22:03:00 <blau-MikeDG> what icon
Dec 05 22:04:09 <eldenz> Invalid project description. my ass
Dec 05 22:04:38 <eldenz> can't i create an eclipse project from existing source that is in the workspace dir?
Dec 05 22:05:27 <vol> eldenz: import
Dec 05 22:05:47 <Nafai> blau-MikeDG: An icon on the home screen or in the applications menu (or whatever it is called)
Dec 05 22:05:55 <eldenz> i tried 'Existing Projects into Workspace' but it doesn't find anything in my android project
Dec 05 22:05:59 <dcordes> herriojr, hey
Dec 05 22:06:36 <unix_lappy> romainguy: would make it much easier to manage wireless profiles.
Dec 05 22:06:41 <unix_lappy> as those seem to be the ones draining the battery most.
Dec 05 22:06:58 <romainguy> and that's why there are indicators in the status bar for those :)
Dec 05 22:07:07 <romainguy> like I said, this is something I want to support eventually
Dec 05 22:07:13 <herriojr> dcordes: hi
Dec 05 22:07:24 <Gary|thinkpad> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/tmobile1/default.mspx
Dec 05 22:07:26 <Gary|thinkpad> lol what
Dec 05 22:08:10 <vol> what
Dec 05 22:10:55 <tethridge> our product sucks, we know you know it, so here's a discount if you use it
Dec 05 22:14:36 <Gary|thinkpad> tethridge: they're giving a discount on the G1 too.
Dec 05 22:14:50 <tethridge> tmo is?
Dec 05 22:14:59 <tethridge> why would they do that on the microsoft page?
Dec 05 22:15:07 <Gary|thinkpad> $139.99, with the windows mobile discount
Dec 05 22:15:11 <Gary|thinkpad> even on the G1
Dec 05 22:15:33 <tethridge> that's cool
Dec 05 22:15:52 <tethridge> they got some much money at microsoft they just give it away for fun
Dec 05 22:16:12 <tethridge> I think I'm going to wait until next summer
Dec 05 22:16:35 <tethridge> it's killing me, but I think that by then we should have some android phones out with the iPhone form factor
Dec 05 22:16:46 <tethridge> if not, I'll spring for the next version of the iphone
Dec 05 22:17:31 <Gary|thinkpad> $139.99
Dec 05 22:17:33 <Gary|thinkpad> Save $260.00
Dec 05 22:17:38 <Gary|thinkpad> right from t-mobile.com
Dec 05 22:17:41 <Gary|thinkpad> this sucks lol
Dec 05 22:17:50 <herriojr> which class is associated with the "content" system service?
Dec 05 22:18:54 <unix_lappy> LOL.
Dec 05 22:19:04 <unix_lappy> Gary|thinkpad: sucks indeed.
Dec 05 22:19:34 <Gary|thinkpad> I mean it's only $40
Dec 05 22:19:52 <Gary|thinkpad> but that's like 2 weeks worth of food, or half a month of phone service for me
Dec 05 22:20:50 <michaelnovakjr> where is the G1 $139?
Dec 05 22:21:16 <Gary|thinkpad> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/tmobile1/default.mspx
Dec 05 22:21:29 <Gary|thinkpad> click get the best deal
Dec 05 22:21:57 <Gary|thinkpad> click here for discounts, products, handhelds & pdas
Dec 05 22:22:06 <Gary|thinkpad> type in 3G zip code and scroll down
Dec 05 22:28:33 <unix_lappy> Gary|thinkpad: requires contract?
Dec 05 22:28:49 <Gary|thinkpad> 12 months I think
Dec 05 22:29:08 <unix_lappy> still better than most everyone in here signed.
Dec 05 22:29:22 <Gary|thinkpad> agreed
Dec 05 22:29:26 <Gary|thinkpad> pretty pissed off atm
Dec 05 22:29:28 <Gary|thinkpad> Or call (866) 464-8662 and identify yourself as “Windows Mobile”—phone orders can sign up for just 12 months!
Dec 05 22:30:14 <tethridge> isn't the $399 price the one without a contract?
Dec 05 22:30:30 <Damm> yup
Dec 05 22:33:55 <tethridge> it has a 2 year contract
Dec 05 22:34:09 <tethridge> I just went through and selected the packages
Dec 05 22:34:34 <tethridge> on the summary page, it shows a fixed term of twenty four months for contract length
Dec 05 22:35:10 <tethridge> how much do you guys typically pay each month for a single android phone on tmo?
Dec 05 22:35:52 <tethridge> I selected the fav five 300 plan along with the unlimited data and texts and it's $140 a month
Dec 05 22:36:02 <tethridge> wow
Dec 05 22:36:09 <sparkle> that's whacked
Dec 05 22:36:22 <tethridge> wait, I read that wrong
Dec 05 22:36:45 <Gary|thinkpad> tethridge: Says you have to order over the phone for 12 months
Dec 05 22:37:05 <tethridge> where do you see that?
Dec 05 22:37:19 <Gary|thinkpad> Or call (866) 464-8662 and identify yourself as “Windows Mobile”—phone orders can sign up for just 12 months!
Dec 05 22:37:42 <unix_lappy> that's gotta be a saving of almost a couple hundered dollars compared to the 24month.
Dec 05 22:37:56 <tethridge> yeah
Dec 05 22:38:10 <tethridge> well, it's up to $200 to break the contract
Dec 05 22:38:12 <Gary|thinkpad> depends on if you plan on leaving t-mobile
Dec 05 22:38:24 <tethridge> so you can get an unlocked phone for $339
Dec 05 22:38:27 <tethridge> :-)
Dec 05 22:38:39 <Gary|thinkpad> $40 phone + $200 ETF
Dec 05 22:38:43 <Gary|thinkpad> but I mean, would you really want to use the phone without 3g
Dec 05 22:39:03 <unix_lappy> it's a great deal for developers, not so much for everyone else.
Dec 05 22:39:06 <tethridge> no, but if you just wanted it for testing
Dec 05 22:39:25 <unix_lappy> especially if you use the G1, as an actual, ya know....phone.
Dec 05 22:41:19 <luok> whoa $140 with 12 mo contract? is that the deal?
Dec 05 22:41:52 <Gary|thinkpad> yup
Dec 05 22:43:39 <luok> might have to cancel and try this
Dec 06 00:53:39 <blau-MikeDG> dopey me, released a version of my app where the donation part was broken
Dec 06 00:53:40 <blau-MikeDG> oops
Dec 06 00:54:02 <blau-MikeDG> wonder how much i lost from that
Dec 06 01:35:03 <marix> its friday night and i'm in an irc chatroom
Dec 06 01:35:06 <marix> go me!!!
Dec 06 01:40:42 <Leeds> marix: it's Saturday morning and I only got back from a party a few hours ago!
Dec 06 01:41:29 <fadden> marix: it's Friday night and I'm reading an IRC chat room from work
Dec 06 01:41:55 <fadden> That, however, is about to change. :-)
Dec 06 01:42:41 <unix_infidel> heh, well you guys shouldnt brag.
Dec 06 01:43:07 <unix_infidel> you're quite possibly in the two best party towns for nerds in the world.
Dec 06 01:44:56 <Leeds> wastrel: ping?
Dec 06 01:45:39 <wastrel> something happened and i somehow disconnected from freenode
Dec 06 01:46:24 <Versed> are you on the g1?
Dec 06 01:46:32 <Versed> using the ircbeta?
Dec 06 01:48:11 <Leeds> wastrel: did you see my ping yesterday?
Dec 06 01:49:27 <Leeds> fbreaderj has had a couple of releases, and now remembers the position in books :-)
Dec 06 01:50:06 <wastrel> i am on irssi
Dec 06 01:50:11 <wastrel> Leeds: yeah new fbreader
Dec 06 01:50:12 <wastrel> yay
Dec 06 01:50:30 <wastrel> Leeds: i'll have to give it a try maybe i can finally put away my palm tx
Dec 06 01:50:41 <Leeds> it's not perfect... but it's now usable :-)
Dec 06 01:51:45 <unix_infidel> ugh, sad, no doc reader or pdf reader but fb2 ;-P
Dec 06 01:53:05 <Leeds> unix_infidel: I spent about 20 minutes on Thursday night, sitting in a restaurant with two young ladies, searching online for a decent pdf->web viewer
Dec 06 01:56:02 <unix_infidel> Leeds: scribd?
Dec 06 01:56:30 <Leeds> that works for "I have a URL for a pdf, I need to view it on my G1"?
Dec 06 01:57:03 <Leeds> HK government had *finally* released the latest list of successful visa applications on their website, but only as a PDF
Dec 06 01:58:01 <unix_infidel> ah, nvm it's flash
Dec 06 01:58:31 <unix_infidel> trying to get someone in the country or out ;-P
Dec 06 02:02:48 <sparkle> hm
Dec 06 02:02:51 <sparkle> leeds, does this not work?
Dec 06 02:02:53 <sparkle> http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/access_onlinetools.html
Dec 06 02:03:30 <Leeds> bit when I tried it, no... it got as far as the "we are loading/converting your doc" page and stuck
Dec 06 02:03:36 <Leeds> first place I went :-)
Dec 06 02:03:40 <sparkle> hm
Dec 06 02:05:32 <Leeds> anyway, I then realised that the list was just a list of successful application reference numbers, and I didn't know my number... waited until I got home, looked up my number, and it was on the list :-D
Dec 06 02:06:56 <Leeds> but I did find a working converter - by the looks of it, it was showing me the output from pdf2html (or possibly pdftohtml, I get them confused)
Dec 06 02:08:08 <Leeds> http://view.samurajdata.se/
Dec 06 02:09:57 <unix_infidel> Leeds: to stay in the country?
Dec 06 02:11:48 <Leeds> unix_infidel: staying in HK isn't too hard as a white UK-passport-holder - UK passports get 6 months whenever you go through passport control, and the nature of HK is such that in over 3.5 years here I've never had a 6 month period without leaving and returning at least once
Dec 06 02:12:27 <Leeds> the 'white' is because while they can officially refused to renew a tourist visa, in general they won't if you look like a respectable English speaker...
Dec 06 02:13:03 <unix_infidel> lol, you're still on a tourist visa?
Dec 06 02:13:24 <Leeds> what the visa will give me is a guarantee that they won't refuse to let me back in, and the right to work - without the visa being tied to a particular job, which makes me much more flexible in the work I can do
Dec 06 02:13:38 <unix_infidel> ah
Dec 06 02:13:46 <Leeds> I've had a couple of work visas, but I've also had a couple of periods - each one longer than 6 months - when I've reverted to a tourist visa
Dec 06 02:19:33 <Leeds> immigration stuff isn't taken all that seriously... it's pretty common for people to work for a month or two - or six, or sometimes 36+ - without having a work visa... and I've met a few people who are living here by doing visa runs every few months
Dec 06 02:23:06 <unix_infidel> tough to get steady work in HK?
Dec 06 02:23:32 <Leeds> yes and no... been a little tough for me...
Dec 06 02:25:29 <JesusFreke> what's the cost of living like?
Dec 06 02:27:59 <Leeds> relatively low... property (renting or buying) isn't so cheap, although prices have fallen something like 20% this year, booze is a bit expensive, and I'm told that running a car is expensive - but very few people need to, because the public transport is excellent
Dec 06 02:28:25 <JesusFreke> gotcha
Dec 06 02:30:08 <Leeds> I pay about US$1450 a month for a 2-bedroom flat, but it's only 25 minutes walk from the city centre - there are cheaper places... I can get the tram to a lot of places I go regularly, for about US$0.25
Dec 06 02:31:59 <Leeds> lunch varies from US$3-4 for mcdonalds or a sandwich, up to about US$20 for a nice big meal...  my mobile, on a no-minimum-term contract, is about US$20 per month for unlimited GPRS/EDGE, unlimited wifi and loads of voice - only thing which pumps it up, really, is roaming
Dec 06 02:34:12 <Leeds> etc, etc.
Dec 06 02:35:13 <Leeds> I reckon my living cost, excluding rent, is around US$2000 per month - and that's living pretty well, covers smaller electronics (e.g. replacement hard drive), lots of eating and drinking out, and so on
Dec 06 02:39:13 <JesusFreke> that's pretty good
Dec 06 02:40:18 <JesusFreke> thanks for the amount of detail too :)
Dec 06 02:40:30 <Leeds> no worries :-)
Dec 06 02:43:45 <Leeds> oh, the one other thing I would say is that my local gf earns... well, less than a third of what I do, but she supports herself and her mum on that.  My numbers above were for an expat not trying particularly hard to live cheaply - locals live a *lot* more cheaply, by default
Dec 06 02:44:14 <JesusFreke> ah :)
Dec 06 02:44:45 <bgupta> Hey guys... anything interesting happening?
Dec 06 02:45:16 <Leeds> just as a silly example... I live in a 2 bedroom flat... okay, my gf is here most nights, but if I got someone into the second room it would save me a lot of money - but I like having my own place
Dec 06 02:45:29 <JesusFreke> *nod*
Dec 06 02:49:29 <morrildl> heh heh
Dec 06 02:49:56 <ttuttle> Ooh, a new release!
Dec 06 02:50:38 <unix_infidel> you guys are sadists, you wait till friday night ;-P
Dec 06 02:50:49 <morrildl> hehehehehehehehe
Dec 06 02:51:16 <JesusFreke> ooo. dev phones available?
Dec 06 02:51:35 <ttuttle> JesusFreke: Not AFAIK.
Dec 06 02:51:42 <JesusFreke> http://code.google.com/android/dev-devices.html
Dec 06 02:51:44 <ttuttle> JesusFreke: Hopefully eventually.
Dec 06 02:52:14 <Leeds> oh!
Dec 06 02:52:21 <jbq> yay, finally announced :)
Dec 06 02:52:36 * ttuttle suspects the "Android Dev Phone 1" is a G1 just like his own.
Dec 06 02:52:37 <morrildl> jbq: indeed
Dec 06 02:52:39 <Leeds> jbq: since I guess you know... is it an HTC Dream?
Dec 06 02:52:42 <morrildl> ttuttle: is right
Dec 06 02:52:51 <Leeds> no Hong Kong?
Dec 06 02:52:58 <morrildl> Leeds: yes, it's an HTC Dream with an unlocked bootloader
Dec 06 02:53:05 <Leeds> damn...
Dec 06 02:53:09 <morrildl> which, yes, means you can flash custom system images
Dec 06 02:53:25 <ttuttle> morrildl: /me channels romainguy "NO IT'S A T-MOBILE G1! DON'T CALL IT THE DREAM!"
Dec 06 02:53:32 <ttuttle> romainguy_: :P
Dec 06 02:53:36 <morrildl> no
Dec 06 02:53:39 <morrildl> this is not a G1
Dec 06 02:53:44 <morrildl> it's an Android Dev Phone 1
Dec 06 02:53:46 <ttuttle> morrildl: Ah.
Dec 06 02:53:52 <morrildl> derived from the HTC Dream :)
Dec 06 02:53:52 <Leeds> don't really care about that too much... do care that it's a) unlocked and b) cheaper than my G1 was
Dec 06 02:53:54 <ttuttle> morrildl: But it's not a Dream either?
Dec 06 02:54:00 <ttuttle> morrildl: The Dream is a top-secret codename!
Dec 06 02:54:11 <morrildl> ttuttle: not any more than HTC Apache or HTC Titan, etc.
Dec 06 02:54:13 <Leeds> morrildl: does it have the non-open stuff on it?
Dec 06 02:54:18 * ttuttle has been yelled at for calling his Dream a Dream.
Dec 06 02:54:25 <Leeds> e.g. market, windows codecs, youtube?
Dec 06 02:54:47 <morrildl> Leeds: the system image it ships with includes Market and the Google apps like Maps, etc.
Dec 06 02:54:53 <ttuttle> morrildl: Nice!
Dec 06 02:54:57 <Leeds> damn! :-)
Dec 06 02:55:06 <Leeds> now, who can I sell my G1 to so I can buy one of these...
Dec 06 02:55:20 * JesusFreke is thinking the same thing
Dec 06 02:55:21 <Leeds> also, not available in HK apparently, but I'm sure I can work around that little bug
Dec 06 02:55:21 <JesusFreke> lol
Dec 06 02:55:35 <JesusFreke> probably won't though
Dec 06 02:56:02 <ttuttle> Leeds: Er, you're not gonna be able to sell a (possibly locked, and used) G1 for more than the $399 an unlocked, developer-friendly ADP1 is going for.
Dec 06 02:56:03 <eugene> Leeds: sell me real cheap :P
Dec 06 02:56:11 * ttuttle offers $20.
Dec 06 02:56:17 <Leeds> eugene: you can get one directly - Singapore is on the list :-(
Dec 06 02:56:30 <Leeds> ttuttle: I am if the person I'm selling to doesn't know :-P
Dec 06 02:56:35 <ttuttle> Leeds: Don't be a jerk plz.
Dec 06 02:56:57 <Leeds> anyway, the street price of a G1 here is quite a lot more than US$399
Dec 06 02:56:58 <eugene> Leeds: ah, reading the page now
Dec 06 02:57:12 <ttuttle> Leeds: *oh*
Dec 06 02:57:30 <Leeds> I paid about US$570 for mine
Dec 06 02:57:36 <ttuttle> Leeds: Ouch.
Dec 06 02:57:36 <sparkle> eegh
Dec 06 02:57:42 * eugene looking for the currency convertor
Dec 06 02:57:43 <JesusFreke> does the back actually have spiffy artwork?
Dec 06 02:57:45 <JesusFreke> http://android.brightstarcorp.com/images/placeholders/dev3.jpg
Dec 06 02:57:46 * ttuttle paid $0 plus a few bugreports.
Dec 06 02:57:57 <dsmcl> yes, it's a cool fractally pattern on the back cover
Dec 06 02:58:02 <ttuttle> Oh damn, I'm nearly willing to pay $400 for that back cover.
Dec 06 02:58:05 <JesusFreke> sweet :)
Dec 06 02:58:16 <ttuttle> Yo, Googlers, can you get me one of those covers? :P
Dec 06 02:58:19 <Leeds> eugene: fancy getting me one? ;-)
Dec 06 02:58:22 <morrildl> That back cover
Dec 06 02:58:29 <morrildl> Let me tell you about how much I covet that back cover
Dec 06 02:58:30 <ttuttle> morrildl: It's awesome!
Dec 06 02:58:34 <morrildl> I covet it SO HARD.
Dec 06 02:58:38 <eugene> Leeds: let me check the shipping cost first :)
Dec 06 02:58:39 <jbq> the back cover looks wickedly good.
Dec 06 02:58:42 <Leeds> I think I would quite like that back cover
Dec 06 02:58:44 <eugene> Leeds: so it's about $600 bugs here.
Dec 06 02:58:47 <eugene> i mean bucks
Dec 06 02:58:56 <ttuttle> jbq: Tell HTC all the existing back covers were stolen and we need new ones, and BTW it should be that design.
Dec 06 02:58:57 <Leeds> you mean SG$600?
Dec 06 02:59:01 <eugene> Leeds: yes
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Dec 06 02:59:57 2008