**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Oct 31 11:39:30 2009
Oct 31 12:22:23 <djauto> hello
Oct 31 12:23:01 <djauto> how do i subscribe to a mailinglist using an email adress, and not through google groups or gmail?
Oct 31 12:45:40 <sunieal> any open source syncronisation clients in android..?
Oct 31 12:47:32 <Wildy> hi =)
Oct 31 12:47:58 <Wildy> would it be possible that we'll get google's navigation backported to donut?
Oct 31 13:50:08 <bryanl> ok i'm a droid newb.  how do i download apps using that funky barcode?
Oct 31 13:53:15 <bkw_> you install the app for that.
Oct 31 14:57:31 <Elench> Is there an XMPP client for Android? I've been looking but couldn't find one
Oct 31 14:57:50 <Elench> Oh sorry, that's Google Talk
Oct 31 14:57:55 * Elench hides under a rock
Oct 31 14:58:20 * GiantTalkingCow looks under the rock.
Oct 31 14:59:02 <Elench> Oh, it's not actually an XMPP client, it just has a bridge...
Oct 31 14:59:26 * Elench is completely confused
Oct 31 15:18:47 <SuPerSnel> tachchen...
Oct 31 15:20:59 <SuPerSnel> ...need help with my G1, installed Update to Android 1.6 today, now standby from "END-Button" doesn't work. anyone an idea how to fix?
Oct 31 15:22:57 <mpsoxygen> Hello!
Oct 31 15:23:19 <mpsoxygen> Can anyone help me with a Donut manual update?
Oct 31 15:26:46 <armence> Hey all, how can I run an emulator using the built-from-source stuff?
Oct 31 15:27:43 <mpsoxygen> oh c'mon people, can't anyone talk to me about a manual update?
Oct 31 15:28:58 <The-Compiler> 7ws com
Oct 31 15:28:59 <The-Compiler> oops
Oct 31 15:42:35 <armence> How can I run an emulator using the built-from-source stuff?
Oct 31 15:42:52 <SuD> hi. testing darairc client on a dream
Oct 31 15:43:32 <GiantTalkingCow> Well, it's working just fine from our end.
Oct 31 15:45:00 <Grunewald> armence Just follow the tutorials, you need either a Mac or linux to compile the source
Oct 31 15:45:50 <Grunewald> check out this that's my own description of how I got it running http://www.airshipworld.info/android/2009/10/my-very-own-aosp/
Oct 31 15:48:09 <armence> Grunewald: Thanks... I didn't realize you had to use eclipse
Oct 31 15:48:20 <Grunewald> uhm you don't
Oct 31 15:48:31 <Grunewald> but the documentation continues in there
Oct 31 15:48:51 <Grunewald> what I described in my blogpost never used eclipse
Oct 31 15:49:23 <xan> can anyone confirm or deny that android 2.0 (eclair) supports installing apps to the sd card?
Oct 31 15:49:47 <Grunewald> xan: I haven't heard anything about Eclair being able to do that.
Oct 31 15:50:07 <Grunewald> but that's only my opinion
Oct 31 15:50:39 <armence> Grunewald, Thanks... I like vim, spent a while learning it and I don't want to have to give up on it for Eclipse
Oct 31 15:51:31 <Grunewald> armence, Eclipse will help you a lot when working on adnroid since it will do a lot of things automated that you would otherwise have to do manually. Eclipse is not just a text editor on steroids it actually does stuff for you
Oct 31 15:52:01 <Grunewald> But you can work without it, just probably not as productive
Oct 31 15:52:06 <xan> armence: there are some plugins available that enable vim commands inside the eclipse IDE
Oct 31 15:52:33 <armence> xan: Really? That's good news... I'll have to try those out
Oct 31 15:52:41 <xan> Grunewald: okay that's what I thought.  Someone had said something about that on slashdot, but I was unable to confirm that either.
Oct 31 15:52:57 <Grunewald> armence: what are your fears swithcing to eclipse ? The keyboard shortcuts ?
Oct 31 15:53:14 <xan> armence: yeah sorry I don't have the links.  I would just google around for them.
Oct 31 15:54:08 <Grunewald> xan: Have a look at the latest Cyanogen mod if I am not completely wrong you can run Apps from SD with that
Oct 31 15:54:23 <armence> Grunewald, Partially... Also, I sometimes develop through ssh (I need to share the only linux computer in the house) and so being familiar and used to something that is CLI only is useful...
Oct 31 15:54:41 <Grunewald> And once Android 2.0 hits the open source tree you can be sure cyanogen will make a build with 2.0
Oct 31 15:55:16 <xan> grunewald: yeah you are right about cyanogen.  I was interested in the stock android 2.0.  I am planning on buying the Motorola Droid on the 6th and was interested to know the answer
Oct 31 15:55:27 <Grunewald> armence: what do you mean with develop thorugh ssh ?
Oct 31 15:56:03 <Grunewald> xan ah understand. Well let's cross fingers :-)
Oct 31 15:56:21 <xan> grunewald: it's not a deal breaker or anything, since most apps are very small in size and developers can still put large data files on the sd card instead of embedding them with the app, but I was still curious.
Oct 31 15:56:30 <Grunewald> xan maybe you can root the Droid and put cyanogens build on it once it's 2.0:-)
Oct 31 15:56:49 <armence> Grunewald, My main development computer I have to share with someone else... So sometimes, the only option I have to develop when it is in use is to use the crappy OSX laptop we have and ssh to the linux computer...
Oct 31 15:57:17 <Grunewald> armence why not X ?
Oct 31 15:57:18 <xan> grunewald: I might do that... haven't decided.  I am thinking about getting into android development, so I might want to keep the stock os loaded, just so I can do testing for my own apps.
Oct 31 15:57:46 <Grunewald> I am no linux expert but couldn't you log in to the linux computer with a graphical login ?
Oct 31 15:57:57 <Grunewald> even remotely ?
Oct 31 15:58:03 <xan> yeah you can forward x11 connections over ssh
Oct 31 15:58:07 <xan> might be slow though
Oct 31 15:58:12 <xan> depending on the connection
Oct 31 15:58:13 <armence> Grunewald: I can't install anything on the laptop... (Think of this as a family dynamics issue and not a technical issue)
Oct 31 15:58:45 <Grunewald> armence: I understand. Why not get your own laptop ?
Oct 31 15:58:59 <armence> Grunewald: That one is a financial issue
Oct 31 15:59:11 <armence> ;-)
Oct 31 15:59:57 <Grunewald> armence: I see. Maybe we can do something about that. Were do you live?
Oct 31 16:00:19 <armence> Grunewald: Bay Area California why?
Oct 31 16:01:09 <Grunewald> well if you would have lived in germany I could have gotten you a pc for yourself. would need a screen but at least you had something for yourself.
Oct 31 16:01:24 <Grunewald> I have at least two pcs collecting dust here
Oct 31 16:02:23 <mpsoxygen> Can anyone tell me what CRC is this build number for the Magic 2.17.401.2 146733 CL#42748 ?
Oct 31 16:02:24 <armence> Grunewald: Thanks... I really appreciate the thought...
Oct 31 16:02:53 <Grunewald> But you should be able to get a decent small pc for I don't know 300 - 500 Dollars, if it is just to connect remotely to the linux machine it doesn't even need much horsepower
Oct 31 16:03:22 <Grunewald> armence maybe even less or free, especially in the bay area
Oct 31 16:04:35 <armence> Grunewald: Thanks... I've been looking around, but I'm freelancing and in a down period right now so probably not the time even for something as cheap as a couple hundreds...
Oct 31 16:05:36 <Grunewald> what can you spare ?
Oct 31 16:07:04 <armence> Grunewald: Right now around 20 or 30 bucks...
Oct 31 16:07:28 <armence> Grunewald: I mean really probably a bit more, but I really don't like to take chances...
Oct 31 16:09:17 <armence> Grunewald: It's ok, don't worry... I'm working on a couple of contracts which should bring in cash so I should be able to get myself a new laptop or desktop in a few months... It really sucks when developing to be limited by crappy computers
Oct 31 16:09:39 <Grunewald> ya especially since computers are cheap
Oct 31 16:24:18 <dretchswatter> This is disappointing... http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/10/29/here-are-all-the-great-android-games-the-answer-is-simpler-than-we-think/
Oct 31 16:28:25 <Grunewald> dretchswatter well it's a matter of architecture. If the developers would split the actual application from the resources all this wouldn't be a problem. The code itself isn't what makes applications big it's the pictures and sounds and 3d models and all that jazz all of that can easily be moved onto the sd card
Oct 31 16:28:54 <Grunewald> It's people not understanding how to develop software for the Platform.
Oct 31 16:29:33 <armence> Grunewald: Thanks a lot for the instructions on your blog... The emulator is slow as hell but it's working...
Oct 31 16:29:42 <Grunewald> good to hear
Oct 31 16:29:51 <dretchswatter> whats this about an emulator?! :o
Oct 31 16:30:21 <Grunewald> dretchswatter the Android Emulator that you can use to develop software for the platform
Oct 31 16:30:29 <dretchswatter> Ah
Oct 31 16:30:46 <dretchswatter> I think I have that... it's quite a pain, but I see
Oct 31 16:30:54 <dretchswatter> I thought you had a version running ON your blog >_<
Oct 31 16:31:24 <Grunewald> dretchswatter nono just an article that explains how to get the Android Open Source project running
Oct 31 16:38:03 <dretchswatter> Grunewald, link pl0x?
Oct 31 16:38:18 <Grunewald> http://www.airshipworld.info/android/2009/10/my-very-own-aosp/
Oct 31 16:55:33 <lesouvage> used one of you the sip/voip client kapanga with htc hero android 1.5 ?
Oct 31 16:55:46 <oopepe> Hello, how can i enable/disable the lockscreen out of my application?
Oct 31 16:56:23 <IvanTSB> Anyone know how to install the android USB driver on Windows 7 64 bit?
Oct 31 16:57:43 <Ramosa> what do you do when the screen doesnt respond? there's a key shortcut to shut down the phone, or you need to pull out battery?
Oct 31 17:00:03 <offby1> Ramosa: I just wait 5 or 10 seconds until I see a popup that says "Activity Home isn't responding"
Oct 31 17:00:09 <offby1> it gives me the chance to force-close it
Oct 31 17:00:45 <Ramosa> after i ran steel browser everything ran so slow that i couldn't see screen updates.. i could see the first frame of some screen but that's all
Oct 31 17:00:56 <Ramosa> took me 10 minutes with some finesse to find the shut down button
Oct 31 17:01:10 <Ramosa> so nothing wasn't responding
Oct 31 17:01:48 <Ramosa> it's like when windows goes 100% cpu, but you don't have access to a task manager
Oct 31 17:03:56 <offby1> ah
Oct 31 17:04:13 <offby1> no clue then
Oct 31 17:08:33 <AakashPatel> Does the Dream have a class 1 or class 2 bluetooth chip?
Oct 31 17:11:21 <lesouvage> when i click on a link to a youtube movie on a site using the standard browser on my htc hero it doesn't play. is there a fix?
Oct 31 17:47:29 <mikepett> I see that the new Droid has a 533mhz proc (if I remember correctly) and the Hero has a 528 or something like that... Are these different processors? Is the Hero going to be just as fast when it gets 2.0?
Oct 31 17:49:44 <Androidfan34> hey ppl
Oct 31 17:50:24 <Androidfan34> I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I want to install a clean googlr android on my rogers htc dream
Oct 31 17:50:54 <Androidfan34> how to I get my phone 2 b the same as the dev phone
Oct 31 17:51:06 <AakashPatel> Androidfan34, #android-root
Oct 31 17:51:36 <Androidfan34> ok thanks
Oct 31 17:51:39 <mihtjel> mikepett: the Droid has a different kind of processor, and if the kernel code etc. is properly optimized, it has potential to be faster than the Hero.
Oct 31 17:52:12 <grindking> potential? haha it will be
Oct 31 17:52:14 <grindking> the hero is a slug
Oct 31 17:52:28 <AakashPatel> hah
Oct 31 17:52:33 <grindking> horrible ui
Oct 31 17:52:39 <nathansu> mikepett : It's got coprocessors as well.  The CPU is completely different than other android devices - it's more about architecture than mhz.  Think comparing a P4 3.2ghz to a modern dual core machine.
Oct 31 17:52:46 <nathansu> dual core processor*
Oct 31 17:53:20 <mihtjel> grindking: that has nothing to do with the hardware, which is what the question was about.
Oct 31 17:53:43 <grindking> yah having the separate powervr chipset reduces load on the main proc obviously
Oct 31 17:53:52 <grindking> this isn't rocket science
Oct 31 17:54:09 <Admin_JD> Anyone got a solution? I've seen the problem commonly, trying to build an android img on Ubuntu 9.10... can't get sun-java5-jdk installed? anyone got it working?
Oct 31 17:54:21 <grindking> mihtjel: htc did open up the source to the hero build didn't they?
Oct 31 17:54:32 <grindking> mihtjel: that's where improvement can be made
Oct 31 17:54:34 <mihtjel> the kernel, yes, which they obviously had to
Oct 31 17:54:45 <Grunewald> Admin_JD my Ubuntu 9.10 is working but I upgraded from 9.4
Oct 31 17:54:50 <mihtjel> but I don't think they opened up Sense
Oct 31 17:55:02 <grindking> mihtjel: ahhh, too bad :(, i meant horrible in how it runs, it's kinda pretty :D
Oct 31 17:55:02 <mihtjel> which is where I think their advantage is over what I've seen of the UI on Droid
Oct 31 17:55:24 <mihtjel> I agree; Maybe at some point they'll start selling Sense in the app store or something like that ;)
Oct 31 17:55:59 * mihtjel is likely to buy an HTC phone at some point, though. Don't think I'll bother with the Droid, in particular since Motorola have been awfully quiet about when we Europeans get to play with it.
Oct 31 17:56:14 <Admin_JD> Grunewald, Did you have that package mentioned installed beforehand?
Oct 31 17:56:43 <Grunewald> yup
Oct 31 17:56:50 <Grunewald> let me look which Java I have right now
Oct 31 17:57:15 <Admin_JD> ok :)
Oct 31 17:57:32 <Admin_JD> It seems the image isn't located in multiverse anymore :(
Oct 31 17:58:11 <mihtjel> hm, #android-dev is awfully quiet.
Oct 31 17:58:38 <nathansu> we're still all asleep.
Oct 31 17:58:53 <mihtjel> Any of you guys here with experience into sending updates from a service to a widget, rather than having the widget do periodic updates?
Oct 31 17:59:04 <mihtjel> Ah, sorry. ;-)
Oct 31 17:59:55 <nathansu> never done widget work - but can you launch an asynctask from a widget?
Oct 31 18:00:34 <mikepett> nathansu: I understand the concept of what makes devices fast, not necessarily the mhz... which is why I was wondering if it was a different proc. So the Droid is probably faster than the Hero will ever be? I thought I also heard something about better graphics acceleration as well.
Oct 31 18:00:44 <Grunewald> Admin_JD I am just looking in my Synaptic Package Manager and see my sun-java5
Oct 31 18:00:59 <mihtjel> Well, I have a service running anyway providing that will create notifications when needed
Oct 31 18:01:26 <nathansu> mikepett : one of the reasons some of the devices are so slow is that there are no graphics coprocessors.  I believe the droid has two independent graphics coprocessors on top of the main cp
Oct 31 18:01:27 <nathansu> u
Oct 31 18:01:27 <mihtjel> but it will only create notifications for some changes, and I would want the user to be able to see the "status" of this service from a widget
Oct 31 18:01:37 <Grunewald> Admin_JD but there is also Java 6 could you not install that ?
Oct 31 18:01:45 <mihtjel> so I thought I might use it to send a broadcast intent, just like the widget updates
Oct 31 18:01:45 <Admin_JD> I have 5
Oct 31 18:01:47 <Admin_JD> oops
Oct 31 18:01:52 <Admin_JD> Grunewald: I have 6
Oct 31 18:02:01 <mikepett> nathansu: ahh, that makes a lot of sense as that seems to be when the device is slow (scrolling, doing graphics intensive stuff)
Oct 31 18:02:02 <Grunewald> then why do you want 5 ?
Oct 31 18:02:11 <Admin_JD> No idea
Oct 31 18:02:22 <Admin_JD> Your version is: java version "1.6.0_16".
Oct 31 18:02:23 <Admin_JD> The correct version is: 1.5.
Oct 31 18:02:47 <Grunewald> Admin_JD were do you get that message ?
Oct 31 18:02:48 <mikepett> nathansu: it's a shame they seem to have crippled the hero like this, maybe now with the Droid we'll start seeing some decent hardward.
Oct 31 18:02:58 <Admin_JD> "make" Grunewald
Oct 31 18:03:10 <Grunewald> Admin_JD ah interesting ol
Oct 31 18:03:14 <Grunewald> uhm I mean ok
Oct 31 18:03:18 <Admin_JD> I can PM you the whole lot OR pastebin it?
Oct 31 18:03:21 <nathansu> mihtejl : only idea I'd have is launch an asynctask from your widget and have the thread do the widget updates in onProgressUpdate()
Oct 31 18:03:32 <nathansu> mikepett : hopefully :D
Oct 31 18:03:43 <Grunewald> Admin_JD no don't worry
Oct 31 18:04:13 <mihtjel> nathansu: Thanks. I'll have a look. If I figure out a nice way to do it, I'll be sure to post something about it on the interwebnets ;-)
Oct 31 18:04:17 <Admin_JD> Grunewald, I might try and remove the check
Oct 31 18:04:41 <Grunewald> Admin_JD why not ask in the Ubuntu or linux chatrooms ?
Oct 31 18:04:49 <Grunewald> They might know what to do
Oct 31 18:05:00 <jason__> Hi, Im looking for someone to help me build a simple application for android
Oct 31 18:05:04 <mikepett> nathansu: well thanks for verifying that for me, I thought that was the case... probably would have gotten the droid anyway regardless, but now I feel like I have to get that one.
Oct 31 18:05:12 <nathansu> mihtejl : I do that sort of thing in a regular UI element.  The asynctask does a bunch of work, updates progress every now and then and updates my main UI progressbar.  You could do something similar for widget updates, I'm sure.
Oct 31 18:05:26 <nathansu> mikepett : yeah definitely getting a droid here :D
Oct 31 18:05:27 <Grunewald> jason__ Yes can do
Oct 31 18:05:35 <jason__> Thanks Grunewald
Oct 31 18:05:48 <jason__> Basically I have a nice idea, but little experience programming
Oct 31 18:06:05 <nathansu> jason__: what you looking for?
Oct 31 18:06:19 <Grunewald> jason__ ok so what do you need what are you able to put in to the project ?
Oct 31 18:06:23 <Admin_JD> Grunewald, Might try it in a minute, Thanks mate :)
Oct 31 18:06:27 <jason__> I need to display a selected image from SD card, and then to put a label over the top of it
Oct 31 18:06:44 <jason__> sounds so simple, this is the basics of it
Oct 31 18:07:08 <jason__> the idea is to label a photo with a colour label which makes a sound when the label is pressed
Oct 31 18:07:15 <armence> So when I run the emulator should I technically be able to install apps and such in order to test things fully?
Oct 31 18:07:23 <mihtjel> jason__: are you making lolcats? ;)
Oct 31 18:07:29 <nathansu> lolol
Oct 31 18:07:32 <jason__> no lol
Oct 31 18:07:35 <nathansu> armence : yes.
Oct 31 18:07:39 <Grunewald> armence uhm ya
Oct 31 18:07:44 <jason__> good one though mihtjel
Oct 31 18:07:49 <armence> Thanks
Oct 31 18:07:53 <Grunewald> mihtjel I thought the same
Oct 31 18:07:58 <mihtjel> "Jason's Mobile Lolcat Creator"
Oct 31 18:08:11 <mihtjel> I see the big signs up everywhere already
Oct 31 18:08:16 <Grunewald> jason__ so you know that there isn't already something similar ?
Oct 31 18:08:19 <jason__> the idea is to add a label on a picture of a friend, like 'I love you', when the button is pressed it shall say 'I love you'
Oct 31 18:08:22 <armence> And I assume those apps and settings would be persistent right? As in, if I shut down the emulator, they remain there...
Oct 31 18:08:50 <nathansu> armence : yes.
Oct 31 18:09:01 <jason__> Grunewald,  it sounds silly, but there is a nice idea behind it
Oct 31 18:09:14 <Grunewald> armence they are written to the Image if you switch the AVD the data is gone. so it doesn't stay in the emulator it stays in the AVD
Oct 31 18:09:37 <armence> Grunewald: Thanks
Oct 31 18:09:59 <mihtjel> armence: You can set a setting to clear the virtual device, which is nice for testing setup (my app crashed on initial install for a few weeks)
Oct 31 18:10:09 <Grunewald> jason__ ya I can see the idea behind it, so are you wanting to sell this app or do an opesource project ? Are you paying or do you need volunteers ?
Oct 31 18:10:16 <armence> mihtjel: Thanks
Oct 31 18:11:28 <jason__> i was hoping for donation based software,
Oct 31 18:11:58 <Grunewald> jason__ what would you contribute to the project ?
Oct 31 18:12:18 <jason__> Grunewald,  the idea will be linked to my other projec idea,http://healingintentions.webs.com/
Oct 31 18:12:45 <jason__> Grunewald,  but the app itself should be something for fun which brings prositive ideas and thoughts to the users
Oct 31 18:13:50 <Grunewald> that sounds like a nice idea. so what would you do, what would your work be and what would the tasks be that someone helping you would do ? Who does visual design, interaction design who does the programming, who tests ?
Oct 31 18:14:12 <mihtjel> you're making it sound very complex, Grunewald :-)
Oct 31 18:14:18 <jason__> Grunewald, im good with computers, but definitely not a programmer, Im very creative, a musician, and positive thinker
Oct 31 18:14:45 <jason__> Grunewald,  so im sorry its hard to answer your questions completely
Oct 31 18:15:21 <Grunewald> jason__ sorry if I make it seem hard. I ask these questions to find out how far along the idea is.
Oct 31 18:15:54 <mihtjel> I would help, except I'm having plenty trouble finding the motivation to work on my own project. ;)
Oct 31 18:15:58 <armence> jason__ I need to head out for now, but I am interested in doing some work on an android app... Shoot me an email at armence@gmail.com, maybe I can give you a hand... (I'm a programmer)
Oct 31 18:16:06 <armence> For free btw...
Oct 31 18:16:10 <jason__> but if you'd like to be involved, it will be a nice positive project, I intened to grow the healing intentions project by making songs with prayer, meditation etc captured into the audio and eventually sell music on Itunes etc for low cost and spread positivity through technology
Oct 31 18:16:19 <jason__> thanks armence
Oct 31 18:16:31 <jason__> mihtjel,  thats nice
Oct 31 18:16:54 <jason__> I have a lot of ideas and motivation, I just installed the SDK and then... remembered I can't do it alone
Oct 31 18:17:40 <jason__> spacemanjason@gmail.com   is me
Oct 31 18:17:49 <rikupw> !
Oct 31 18:17:57 <spacemanriku> zomg
Oct 31 18:18:00 <spacemanriku> i'm over it
Oct 31 18:18:18 <nathansu> jason__ : same as mihtjel.  Have two android projects currently going on top of my day job, quite busy.
Oct 31 18:18:51 * mihtjel made a project that's supposed to become useful at work ;)
Oct 31 18:19:05 <jason__> the actually app would be very simple I imagine, I will work on some mock images to describe the project more
Oct 31 18:19:07 <mihtjel> so hopefully, at some point, I can start working on it during the day as well
Oct 31 18:19:43 <nathansu> mihtjel : my boss is an android fanatic.  Hoping I can convince them we need an android app :D.
Oct 31 18:19:47 <jason__> who ever contributes will be part of a team, donations will be spread between hosting costs and team members,
Oct 31 18:20:21 <mihtjel> nathansu: Of course you do! :)
Oct 31 18:20:29 <mihtjel> nathansu: what sort of work do you do?
Oct 31 18:20:35 <jason__> ofcourse I havnt given all the ideas away about the project but the basics is to display images with labels and sounds linked
Oct 31 18:20:58 <nathansu> mihtjel : stuff related to space :D.
Oct 31 18:21:33 <mihtjel> neat
Oct 31 18:22:00 <nathansu> I work mostly in perl/C/matlab, tis fun stuff.
Oct 31 18:22:18 <mihtjel> sounds it!
Oct 31 18:22:48 <mihtjel> I do sysadmin stuff .. "my" android app is aiming to bring our monitoring system alerts onto the phones in a more suitable way than just text messages or emails.
Oct 31 18:23:09 <nathansu> oh that's neat
Oct 31 18:23:19 <mihtjel> it has the evil subtext of our boss currently being reluctant to buy us phones, but if there was a definite use case for it, he might view it as more reasonable
Oct 31 18:23:27 <nathansu> lolol
Oct 31 18:25:03 <mihtjel> in particular now that he's signed a contract where the "client" (another part of the university where I work) will pay an amount depending on the availability of the system we host for them
Oct 31 18:25:21 <Dingoo> i have thought of doing the same thing mihtjel
Oct 31 18:25:31 <mihtjel> Dingoo: What do you use for monitoring?
Oct 31 18:25:41 <mihtjel> or did you mean fool your boss into paying for phones? ;)
Oct 31 18:25:52 <Dingoo> gfi and n-able
Oct 31 18:26:02 <Dingoo> neither are fully implemented yet, trying to find the best solution
Oct 31 18:26:08 <nathansu> mihtjel : I work at a university too - where are you at?
Oct 31 18:27:04 <mihtjel> Aarhus, in Denmark
Oct 31 18:27:12 <nathansu> oh cool
Oct 31 18:27:18 <nathansu> <--@Caltech
Oct 31 18:27:23 <mihtjel> Interesting :)
Oct 31 18:27:59 * mihtjel was planning a California (SF) trip early December, but the travel account is empty currently .. hoping boss finds something to put in it before then
Oct 31 18:28:22 <nathansu> work related travel to SF?
Oct 31 18:29:50 <mihtjel> Dingoo: The project I'm doing is in two parts; a component on the monitoring system that makes a quite simple (small!) XML file for the phone to grab, and then the app on the phone which grabs it every 15 minutes or so, and checks for any services that have gone wrong. It generates notifications if things go wrong, but not if they get better - which is why the widget would be nice, for "at-a-glance" status if you're in a hurry.
Oct 31 18:30:12 <mihtjel> nathansu: Yeah, got offered a free 4-day course, and coming from cold, wintery Denmark to San Francisco would be nice ;-)
Oct 31 18:30:23 <nathansu> oh definitely.  SF is a great town.
Oct 31 18:30:34 <nathansu> California in general rocks lol.
Oct 31 18:30:43 <mihtjel> travel expenses would be around $2-3000 though, and we're a bit short of money at the moment
Oct 31 18:31:00 <grindking> i wouldn't want to live there nowadays i don't think, but i haven't been back since a year after i was born
Oct 31 18:31:03 <nathansu> ah I see.
Oct 31 18:31:07 <mihtjel> SF seems very european, considering the view we get of the rest of the US over here
Oct 31 18:31:36 <mihtjel> it has bikes and everything! :)
Oct 31 18:31:47 <nathansu> mihtjel : Yup - that's a pretty good representation.  You've got pockets of southern california that are more european as well.
Oct 31 18:32:56 <mihtjel> Ever been to Europe?
Oct 31 18:34:22 <nathansu> mihtjel : Just the UK, no where else.
Oct 31 18:34:31 <nathansu> lived there for 4 months for work a while back.
Oct 31 18:34:40 <mihtjel> Oh, which part?
Oct 31 18:36:25 <nathansu> London.
Oct 31 18:36:29 <mihtjel> Ah.
Oct 31 18:36:32 <nathansu> loved it.
Oct 31 18:36:56 <mihtjel> I like London, just not for too long at a time.
Oct 31 18:37:03 <nathansu> lol
Oct 31 18:37:29 <mihtjel> The one thing I never really got to grips with in SF was tipping .. In Scandinavia, it's somewhat of a "foreign concept"
Oct 31 18:38:30 <nathansu> not tipping in CA is sort of considered a no-no.  But I have a feeling that's because most waiters/waitresses don't make a living wage in the states.
Oct 31 18:38:40 <nathansu> they sort of "live off of" their tips, if you get my meaning.
Oct 31 18:38:45 <mihtjel> Nodnod, it makes sense.
Oct 31 18:39:07 <mihtjel> But, not being used to it, figuring out what 15 or 20% of a restaurant bill is can be a bit difficult ;)
Oct 31 18:39:17 <mihtjel> in particular if wine has been involved <.<
Oct 31 18:39:19 <nathansu> haha
Oct 31 18:40:11 <EugeneKay> Divide by 10, double it
Oct 31 18:40:16 <EugeneKay> That's 20%
Oct 31 18:40:32 <HammerT_NL> do any of you know where I can find/remove app data (such as settings) ?
Oct 31 18:40:32 <nathansu> division is difficult when wine is involved.
Oct 31 18:40:33 <nathansu> lol
Oct 31 18:40:35 <mihtjel> EugeneKay: That's true, I'm just not used to it :)
Oct 31 18:40:54 <EugeneKay>  /10 is drop a zero
Oct 31 18:40:56 <EugeneKay> Like, seriously?
Oct 31 18:41:02 <EugeneKay> How drunk do you get of of wine?
Oct 31 18:41:22 <nathansu> drink it by the bottle - bypass the glass completely.
Oct 31 18:41:44 <mihtjel> EugeneKay: We don't tip; on a Saturday evening here, a waiter would make about the same per hour as I do. They are generally trained, at a waiting school, and earn quite well.
Oct 31 18:42:09 <mihtjel> EugeneKay: so it's a bit of an adjustment coming to a place where tips are given :)
Oct 31 18:42:22 <grindking> tip calculator app owns
Oct 31 18:42:33 <mihtjel> I'll have to bring one next time :)
Oct 31 18:42:55 <HammerT_NL> tips are only for countries where there is no minimum wage right
Oct 31 18:43:09 <EugeneKay> The US has a minimum wage. It's crap.
Oct 31 18:43:29 <mihtjel> We don't have a minimum wage, but we do have strong unions and workers rights, which ends up about the same
Oct 31 18:44:03 <HammerT_NL> yeah but that doesnt count for the stereotype diner waitress right?
Oct 31 18:44:11 <HammerT_NL> or am i wrong
Oct 31 18:44:11 <mihtjel> it does, actually
Oct 31 18:44:25 <mihtjel> the country is small enough that it actually works out :)
Oct 31 18:44:50 <KNY> grindking, I've never understood tip calculators
Oct 31 18:45:04 <grindking> <nathansu> division is difficult when wine is involved.
Oct 31 18:45:10 <grindking> so there you go
Oct 31 18:45:11 <grindking> now you do
Oct 31 18:45:24 <nathansu> grindking : was sort of a joke =P
Oct 31 18:45:30 <grindking> well, i'm not joking
Oct 31 18:45:32 <HammerT_NL> just multiply by 0.1 then
Oct 31 18:45:55 * mihtjel is slowly dividing this bottle of sauvignon blanc
Oct 31 18:45:55 <grindking> why would i want to think about any sort of math equation if i don't have to?
Oct 31 18:46:11 <nathansu> division isn't really an "equation"
Oct 31 18:46:12 <nathansu> lol
Oct 31 18:46:24 <mihtjel> dunno
Oct 31 18:46:26 <HammerT_NL> err
Oct 31 18:46:28 <grindking> so figuring out the end result isn't an equation? ok
Oct 31 18:46:30 <HammerT_NL> because same day
Oct 31 18:46:40 <nathansu> nope, it's not.
Oct 31 18:46:40 <HammerT_NL> you will find yourselves without your android
Oct 31 18:46:51 <mihtjel> if you want "18% of $26.75", you're solving "x = .18*26.75"
Oct 31 18:47:15 <grindking> heh
Oct 31 18:47:19 <nathansu> bah you're making it too complicated.
Oct 31 18:47:31 <grindking> anyway, i just like to press buttons and look at ui's, so i like tip calculator :D
Oct 31 18:48:01 <mihtjel> oh, something else that really annoyed me!
Oct 31 18:48:11 <mihtjel> You don't list prices of stuff including tax
Oct 31 18:48:37 <mihtjel> so I would be at a counter, buying something, having carefully counted up the total in change to get rid of it - and the sum total comes up as something more, because of the tax.
Oct 31 18:48:56 <nathansu> mihtjel : yup, I could see that as annoying if you're not used to it.
Oct 31 18:49:07 <nathansu> I just inflate the price by 10% if I want to know how much I need.
Oct 31 18:49:12 <mihtjel> :nods
Oct 31 18:49:19 <mihtjel> uhm, I mean. /me nods.
Oct 31 18:49:21 <nathansu> lol
Oct 31 18:49:24 <EugeneKay> :nod: ?
Oct 31 18:49:35 <nathansu> sales tax is ridiculous in CA, though.
Oct 31 18:49:37 <nathansu> 9.75%
Oct 31 18:49:45 <mihtjel> EugeneKay: Nah, just too used to using "talkers", where : is the same as IRC /me.
Oct 31 18:49:54 <mihtjel> hehehe
Oct 31 18:50:05 <mihtjel> nathansu: We have 25% VAT. :P
Oct 31 18:50:10 <nathansu> oof
Oct 31 18:50:16 * nathansu stops complaining.
Oct 31 18:50:17 <mihtjel> but all prices are shown inclusive, so you don't notice
Oct 31 18:50:21 <nathansu> ah
Oct 31 18:50:34 <EugeneKay> I wouldn't mind a universal sales tax, if it replaced the income tax.
Oct 31 18:50:41 <EugeneKay> As has been proposed.
Oct 31 18:52:16 <mihtjel> it moves taxation from those who earn much onto those who spend a large portion of their income - ie., those who earn the least pay proportionally more of a sales tax
Oct 31 18:52:56 <EugeneKay> Also true.
Oct 31 18:53:35 <EugeneKay> Speaking as somebody who likes saving their cash, that works for me :-p
Oct 31 18:55:09 <mihtjel> realisticly, it's not going to happen in the current economic climate
Oct 31 18:55:23 <mihtjel> the UK, for instance, lowered their sales tax to promote private spending
Oct 31 19:10:26 <EugeneKay> I have just done a dumb thing to my webserver.
Oct 31 19:10:50 <jason__> :)
Oct 31 19:10:51 <EugeneKay> Hint: ifconfig eth0 down
Oct 31 19:11:05 <poningru> heh
Oct 31 19:11:12 <poningru> EugeneKay, remote?
Oct 31 19:11:14 <poningru> or at home?
Oct 31 19:11:23 <EugeneKay> About 1200 miles fom here
Oct 31 19:11:29 <EugeneKay> I *do* have a fancy reboot button, though
Oct 31 19:11:40 <mihtjel> lucky.
Oct 31 19:11:51 <mihtjel> or well-prepared.
Oct 31 19:12:26 <EugeneKay> $109/mo for the server, 100mb port, 3TB of bandwidth, and a decent amount of support capabilities
Oct 31 19:12:44 <EugeneKay> Man this thing is taking a while to reboot.
Oct 31 19:12:58 <EugeneKay> I hope I don't have to call the guy with the KVM cart
Oct 31 19:13:16 <poningru> heh
Oct 31 19:13:36 <poningru> I didnt realize they dont have some sort of vnc stuff
Oct 31 19:13:42 <poningru> that's kinda lame
Oct 31 19:14:00 <EugeneKay> Well, I have another button to load a serial consle
Oct 31 19:14:06 <EugeneKay> But the OS has to come up first
Oct 31 19:14:06 <poningru> ah ok
Oct 31 19:14:18 * poningru clicks the easy button
Oct 31 19:14:28 <EugeneKay> The easy button is grayed out
Oct 31 19:14:42 <poningru> heh
Oct 31 19:14:56 <EugeneKay> Sigh.... it's not up yet
Oct 31 19:15:03 <EugeneKay> I give it another 15 before I submit a help ticket.
Oct 31 19:15:44 <poningru> cool
Oct 31 19:15:45 <poningru> http://gizmodo.com/5394234/htcs-virtual-book-ui-patent-could-be-sense-uis-successor
Oct 31 19:16:03 <EugeneKay> Oh wtf it has to reboot to do a serial console?
Oct 31 19:16:06 <EugeneKay> Must be single user mode
Oct 31 19:16:12 <poningru> ouch
Oct 31 19:16:21 * EugeneKay grumbles
Oct 31 19:16:27 <steup> no for linux serial console is a kernel boot parameter
Oct 31 19:16:47 <poningru> ah yeah
Oct 31 19:17:04 <EugeneKay> Yeah, I thought it was turned on by default
Oct 31 19:17:05 <poningru> steup, I assumed it was one of those hp/dell ikms or whatever thingy
Oct 31 19:17:15 <EugeneKay> That's really how I *want* it.
Oct 31 19:17:26 <EugeneKay> The serial login is always there.... no rebooting to switch kernels
Oct 31 19:17:34 <steup> that DRAC cards are really cool, yes
Oct 31 19:18:05 <EugeneKay> The KVMoverIPs are *really* expensive
Oct 31 19:18:25 <steup> EugeneKay: yeah, it's allways there... Only if it was enabled at boot time!
Oct 31 19:19:53 <stuff> ug
Oct 31 19:20:02 <stuff> anyone who wants a droid is going to have to get buttraped by verison
Oct 31 19:20:25 <EugeneKay> Hey, you know what VZW says
Oct 31 19:20:38 <EugeneKay> Hell, Verizon as a whole
Oct 31 19:20:49 <EugeneKay> "Proudly servicing you for over 100 years"
Oct 31 19:21:44 <EugeneKay> And by servicing, they of course mean the same way that a bull services cows.
Oct 31 19:22:20 <poningru> heh
Oct 31 19:22:38 <poningru> I am not sure if I should wait any longer to get a g1
Oct 31 19:22:43 <poningru> my gf is getting antsy
Oct 31 19:22:58 <poningru> I'm like ... I wanna wait till the g1 comes down to like $50USD
Oct 31 19:23:31 <poningru> honestly what I would really like is something like the droid on tmo
Oct 31 19:23:48 <mihtjel> can you buy CDMA/whatever you call it phones without being bound to a carrier?
Oct 31 19:24:06 <poningru> oh man the 800x480 screen gives me a boner
Oct 31 19:24:20 <poningru> mihtjel, I suppose you can... but whats the point?
Oct 31 19:24:53 <mihtjel> I was just wondering, what with stuff talking about what verizon was going to do to you
Oct 31 19:25:28 <poningru> mihtjel, heh... all the cdma carriers are like that
Oct 31 19:35:04 <EugeneKay> D'oh.... they have it setup so that it emails the serial console login to me
Oct 31 19:35:21 <EugeneKay> And my email is handled by, you guessed it.
Oct 31 19:37:56 <EugeneKay> I blame JesusFreke
Oct 31 19:38:45 <JesusFreke> I blame EugeneKay
Oct 31 19:38:55 * EugeneKay is cursing at his webserver's misconfigured eth0
Oct 31 19:39:13 <JesusFreke> see? all your fault
Oct 31 19:40:33 <jason__> armence, if you are back, I've invited you to view and edit a google document
Oct 31 19:52:49 <zinx> oops, i need to be able to have a different notification tone per gmail label :(
Oct 31 20:11:11 <Ramosa> woo android 2.0 for hero
Oct 31 20:11:24 <Ramosa> so they will just skip 1.6 ?
Oct 31 20:12:13 <jason__>  - Hoping to get skype calls eventually on my android.
Oct 31 20:12:21 <jason__> over Wifi ofcourse.
Oct 31 20:16:41 <heoa> how to search content of a website in the default browser?
Oct 31 20:17:05 <Timmmm> Hi, I'm trying to make a simple layout, with a google maps MapView above two buttons. Unfortunately I can't get it to work. I suspect the mapview is a big buggy - sometimes it fills the display; sometimes half of the buttons are visible. Anyway this is the best I have been able to do: http://pastebin.com/m3050e728   could anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong?
Oct 31 21:05:12 <teratoma> i just took a picture of univac with my g1
Oct 31 21:05:50 <Admin_JD> i just took a picture of univac with my g2
Oct 31 21:05:53 <Admin_JD> j/k :P
Oct 31 21:11:03 <DarkriftX> I just took a holograph video of a univac with my g13
Oct 31 21:14:19 <shiznebit> DarkriftX, what's the year on your clock
Oct 31 21:15:15 <jason__> i just made a skype call over wifi on my Tattoo
Oct 31 21:15:20 <jason__> NOT :P
Oct 31 21:15:35 <jason__> btw If anyone can help me to do that, please, feel free :)
Oct 31 21:28:55 <DrChandra> DarkriftX: This is William H. Gates the Fifth. As per your EULA, you are not allowed to use the time travel feature on your G13 to travel to this time period. Please surrender your phone immediately.
Oct 31 21:31:19 <woddler> Where can I find eclair 2.0 for my htc-g1 dev-phone? I heard its out but I cant find it
Oct 31 21:32:29 <tbo> woddler: only the SDK is available, so not at all
Oct 31 21:33:03 <Timmmm> God *damn* android is badly documented.
Oct 31 21:33:33 <woddler> crap, anticlimax
Oct 31 21:33:48 <zinx> Timmmm: what kind of documentation are you looking for?
Oct 31 21:34:01 <zinx> ah, i see
Oct 31 21:34:07 <zinx> Timmmm: you may want to try #android-dev
Oct 31 21:34:58 <Timmmm> zinx: Isn't that for platform development? I thought this was for app development...
Oct 31 21:35:08 <zinx> Timmmm: have you tried without the layout_weight?
Oct 31 21:35:15 <jakers> Hey Guys, I'm having some problems with the emulator, it's taking long for things to respond. Anyone have any ideas  as to what might cause this to happen?
Oct 31 21:35:15 <zinx> Timmmm: no, #android-dev is for app development
Oct 31 21:35:51 <Timmmm> zinx: Ah, ok! Yeah I tried every combination of weights, fills, an so on possible! New problem is that my onClick() methods never get called.
Oct 31 21:36:00 <jakers> Ah thanks zinx
Oct 31 21:58:10 <Grunewald> I have just been trying out the standard Android Calendar app, and comping from Palm OS it feels liek a huge step back, it's really not very useable. QUite clunky. Anyone else has that same feeling ?
Oct 31 21:59:14 <spikebike> Grunewald: no particularly, it works for me
Oct 31 21:59:21 <spikebike> and the network sync is really cool
Oct 31 21:59:38 <Grunewald> well it works but it feels clunky to me with regards to usablility
Oct 31 21:59:51 <spikebike> feel free to write up a better one ;-)
Oct 31 22:00:08 <spikebike> feels much like the web interface (gcal) to me
Oct 31 22:00:18 <Grunewald> well that's what I am going to do, or better I am planning to improve the standard one
Oct 31 22:00:23 <DarkriftX> palm has been doign calendars for 20 years (thats about all they did good for 18 of those years). android has been doing it for..... 12 months?
Oct 31 22:00:49 <DarkriftX> it could use all the help it can get
Oct 31 22:01:07 <Grunewald> DarkriftX yes but I was hoping the Google Engineers would have looked at what Palm had done :-)
Oct 31 22:01:08 <spikebike> I don't think android's gcal is opensource... is it?
Oct 31 22:01:13 <Grunewald> it is
Oct 31 22:01:34 <spikebike> ah, interesting, so you could improve it without having to build a new backend
Oct 31 22:01:40 <DarkriftX> nice
Oct 31 22:01:47 <DarkriftX> then push your changes back up :P
Oct 31 22:02:00 <Grunewald> well the problem is the current Calendar app relies on the undocuments proprietary google sync bits
Oct 31 22:02:05 <DarkriftX> ahh
Oct 31 22:02:08 <spikebike> if you succeed I'd expect a job offer ;-)
Oct 31 22:02:25 <spikebike> yeah propiretary sync bits really annoy me
Oct 31 22:02:45 <DarkriftX> almost as bad as proprietary print cartridges, but thats another story
Oct 31 22:02:46 <Grunewald> hehe well I am waiting for the 2.0 Release to really kick off since there are significant changes in 2.0
Oct 31 22:02:51 <spikebike> I just want to send a few 100 bytes to a good app and there's no supported way to do so
Oct 31 22:03:01 <DarkriftX> Grunewald: the calendar didnt change at all (so far)
Oct 31 22:03:07 <spikebike> yeah I've heard theres a good bit more exposed in the sync apiu in 2.0
Oct 31 22:03:07 <DarkriftX> from what I read anyways
Oct 31 22:03:11 <Grunewald> In 2.0 it did
Oct 31 22:03:26 <Grunewald> A lot under the hood stuff
Oct 31 22:03:27 <DarkriftX> i watched a video of 2.0 and they couldnt find any diff in the calendar
Oct 31 22:03:33 <spikebike> it's unclear to me if I can push a few hundred bytes to a user app though
Oct 31 22:03:45 <Grunewald> spikebike what do you want to do ?
Oct 31 22:04:27 <spikebike> I want to be able to trigger a program on android to wake up and receive a few 100 bytes.
Oct 31 22:04:38 <spikebike> it's a hard token for login kinda widget
Oct 31 22:04:59 <Grunewald> uhm that is very general. Like is it supposed to be push or pull ?
Oct 31 22:05:07 <spikebike> push
Oct 31 22:05:29 <spikebike> I don't want to waste the ram/battery (both are pretty tight on the g1) trying to pull
Oct 31 22:05:30 <Grunewald> hmm as far as I know there is no push api in android besides sms :-)
Oct 31 22:05:44 <spikebike> gtalk/gcal/contacts isn't pull?
Oct 31 22:06:01 <Grunewald> it is pull
Oct 31 22:06:08 <Grunewald> in ways
Oct 31 22:06:39 <spikebike> well I guess I don't want to add a new pull more than I want push
Oct 31 22:06:50 <csgeek> I'm trying to add a resource to an android application... I see that it auto generates a R.java class, but I can't seem to find what file it uses to generate that from
Oct 31 22:06:59 <wallerdev> are there more paid apps in the android market than the 34 listed here? http://www.android.com/market/paid.html
Oct 31 22:07:31 <Grunewald> spikebike could you couple it with a user interaction ? like user presses button and gets the newest data ?
Oct 31 22:07:37 <wallerdev> and if so how do i see the rest?
Oct 31 22:07:46 <wallerdev> ooo i see
Oct 31 22:07:51 <wallerdev> "For a comprehensive, up-to-date list of the thousands of titles that are available, you will need to view Android Market on a handset."
Oct 31 22:08:11 <spikebike> well the whole idea is the user don't have to do anything
Oct 31 22:08:27 <Grunewald> but what do you need the data for then if not for the user ?
Oct 31 22:08:43 <spikebike> when you go to login somewhere (local or remote) your phone would get a msg saying, allow this IP/user to login to service xyz @ time/date
Oct 31 22:08:50 <spikebike> user would click yes/no
Oct 31 22:08:57 <spikebike> then a msg would go to the server
Oct 31 22:09:17 <spikebike> so instead of users typing a silly 8-12 char password they would prove the possession of a 2k bit key
Oct 31 22:09:58 <Grunewald> and when do they get the 2kbit key ?
Oct 31 22:10:12 <spikebike> the 2k bit key is generated on and never leaves the phone
Oct 31 22:10:19 <Grunewald> once ?
Oct 31 22:10:30 <spikebike> prove possession of != send it to randoms
Oct 31 22:10:44 <spikebike> yeah once, keep it on the phone
Oct 31 22:11:19 <spikebike> say you are allowed to login to foo.com, the admin places your public key there
Oct 31 22:11:20 <Grunewald> ok I still don't understand why you need a push onto the phone in regular intervalls what do you need to update ?
Oct 31 22:12:12 <spikebike> then you go to login to foo.com, it looks up your public key, then challenges your phone to prove it has the private key, then a window on the phone asks the user if the login should be allowed.
Oct 31 22:12:31 <spikebike> if you say yes, you send the response to the server.
Oct 31 22:12:46 <Grunewald> so where in there do you need the push ?
Oct 31 22:12:48 <spikebike> basically logins would change from what you know (a password) to what you have (a private key on your phone)
Oct 31 22:13:00 <spikebike> to send the challenge to the phone
Oct 31 22:13:53 <Grunewald> so the user is in the browser? And wants to access a website and that website should challenge the phone ?
Oct 31 22:14:34 <votaguz> hi all, i'm just installing the ADT plugin but after the instalation ends i restart the eclipse, but when i going to preferences of eclipse for configure the eclipse SDK Path, Android Menu isn't appear in the configuration Dialog... I'm Installing it on Macbook Pro Intel, with Snow Leopard and Eclipse Galileo
Oct 31 22:14:34 <spikebike> this would be for ssh/web access from a laptop/desktop to anywhere the user wants access to
Oct 31 22:14:44 <spikebike> not just access from the phone
Oct 31 22:15:27 <spikebike> so unless you want a daemon keeping a tcp connection open and using ram/battery all the time you need push
Oct 31 22:15:39 <Grunewald> so could the user not activate the challenge and response app ? instead of having a pushg service running in the background ? I know it wouldn't be quit eas conventient but would still work
Oct 31 22:15:44 <spikebike> or force the user to click on an icon on his phone everytime he wants to login somewhere from his desktop
Oct 31 22:16:01 <spikebike> yeah it would be awkward
Oct 31 22:16:14 <spikebike> you'd have to grab the phone twice per login
Oct 31 22:16:25 <Grunewald> true
Oct 31 22:16:39 <spikebike> and it would be harder to queue
Oct 31 22:16:43 <Grunewald> and what about sending an sms ?
Oct 31 22:16:53 <Grunewald> to the phone ?
Oct 31 22:16:56 <spikebike> that would work, but the length is a bit small, and it costs
Oct 31 22:18:04 <Grunewald> I really don't know how you could have a constant connection without having a constant connection
Oct 31 22:19:05 <Grunewald> like could you not reverse the interaction ? Like user tries to log in, and then grbas his phone to push his certificate to the server ? Server answerrs and unlocks the access ? Would be only one interaction
Oct 31 22:19:37 <Grunewald> Or if you don't want the certifcate to leave the phone do something like
Oct 31 22:20:06 <Grunewald> -user grabs phone, activates the app, app sends, challenge me signal, app gets challenged, answers, server unlocks
Oct 31 22:21:08 <spikebike> well I'm hiding a bit of complexity
Oct 31 22:21:24 <spikebike> basically the server looks up in the database user, public key, and XMPP/jabber handle
Oct 31 22:21:47 <spikebike> then generates a random number, encrypts in the public key, and send challenge + metadata to the xmpp handle
Oct 31 22:22:03 <Grunewald> ok makes sense
Oct 31 22:22:05 <spikebike> ideally at that point the phone would display the metadata and an accept/deny
Oct 31 22:22:17 <spikebike> which then of course would be encrypted in the servers public key
Oct 31 22:22:26 <spikebike> and the response would go back
Oct 31 22:22:37 <Grunewald> ya that would mean you need an xmpp client constantly running
Oct 31 22:22:47 <spikebike> right, much like gtalk already is running
Oct 31 22:23:02 <spikebike> latency for a gtalk IM to be received is pleasingly short
Oct 31 22:23:21 <Grunewald> Well I don't know how much Gtalk eats up but if the app has to eat up a few cycles if it's always connected
Oct 31 22:23:48 <spikebike> well it ties into the google infrastructure which helps gtalk/gmail/contact updates and related
Oct 31 22:24:01 <spikebike> so even when gtalk isnt' running you can still get a msg
Oct 31 22:24:10 <Grunewald> because it is a service
Oct 31 22:24:56 <spikebike> seems like the phone keeps one connection open at all times
Oct 31 22:25:06 <spikebike> and only reconnects when it's lost
Oct 31 22:25:15 <Grunewald> yes could very well be
Oct 31 22:25:22 <spikebike> the phone has a unique XMPP handle (not the user on the phone, but the phone itself)
Oct 31 22:25:36 <Grunewald> really ?
Oct 31 22:25:40 <spikebike> yeah
Oct 31 22:25:44 <spikebike> umm running cyanogen?
Oct 31 22:26:04 <Grunewald> no
Oct 31 22:26:16 <spikebike> it's obvious from the android source
Oct 31 22:26:28 <Grunewald> can you show me ? I have the source
Oct 31 22:26:37 <spikebike> and viewable in the gtalk service monitor, notsure where it comes from, but cyanogen has it
Oct 31 22:26:41 <spikebike> sure umm
Oct 31 22:29:06 <spikebike> running a global find for xmpp/gtalk at the moment
Oct 31 22:34:19 <Grunewald> so you hope you can tap into that system somehow ?
Oct 31 22:36:32 <spikebike> JID_RESOURCE_PREFIX in Settings.java is a hint
Oct 31 22:37:13 <spikebike>     public static synchronized String getJidResource() {
Oct 31 22:37:15 <spikebike> is aonther
Oct 31 22:37:20 <spikebike> the comment says:
Oct 31 22:37:27 <spikebike>      * Returns the GTalk JID resource associated with this device.
Oct 31 22:37:35 <Grunewald> which Settings.java are you talking about there are a few
Oct 31 22:37:53 <spikebike> ./frameworks/base/core/java/android/provider/Settings.jav
Oct 31 22:38:00 <Grunewald> thx
Oct 31 22:38:03 <spikebike> ./frameworks/base/core/java/android/provider/Im.java
Oct 31 22:38:10 <spikebike> those 2 files have most of the related info
Oct 31 22:38:23 <spikebike>     // TODO: we shouldn't not have a permenant Jid resource, as that's an easy target for
Oct 31 22:38:27 <spikebike>     // spams. We should change it once a while, like when we resubscribe to the subscription feeds
Oct 31 22:38:30 <spikebike>     // server.
Oct 31 22:38:38 <spikebike> they seem to realize a static JID isn't a good idea (for the device, not the user)
Oct 31 22:38:51 <Grunewald> haha that's funny
Oct 31 22:39:06 <spikebike>      * Returns the device ID that we should use when connecting to the mobile gtalk server.
Oct 31 22:39:10 <spikebike>      * This is a string like "android-0x1242", where the hex string is the Android ID obtained
Oct 31 22:39:13 <spikebike>      * from the GoogleLoginService.
Oct 31 22:39:19 <spikebike> so what I've been trying to figure out
Oct 31 22:39:32 <spikebike> is how I can send a message to android-0x1242
Oct 31 22:39:39 <spikebike> and have my application wake up and receive the msg
Oct 31 22:39:48 <Grunewald> probabaly only if you are on that server
Oct 31 22:40:28 <Grunewald> I don't know if it is possible but couldn't you intercept the network traffic of the phone ? Run it over wifie and make sure you record the packages
Oct 31 22:40:31 <spikebike> dunno, I'm rather curious to see if the google <-> xmpp gateway blocks messages to android-foo
Oct 31 22:40:50 <spikebike> it does work over wifi
Oct 31 22:40:51 <Grunewald> Then you should see the xmpp stuff and where it goes to
Oct 31 22:40:59 <spikebike> true
Oct 31 22:41:12 <spikebike> although I think it might all be over SSL
Oct 31 22:41:21 <Grunewald> probabaly
Oct 31 22:41:53 <spikebike> getGTalkDeviceId  is call able from user space
Oct 31 22:42:27 <spikebike> oh hrm, you said gcal is open source?
Oct 31 22:42:44 <spikebike> I wonder if it receives similar messages
Oct 31 22:43:18 <Grunewald> yes but it also goes through the GoogleLogin Service
Oct 31 22:43:25 <Grunewald> one sec
Oct 31 22:43:41 <spikebike> find . -name '*.java' -print0 | xargs -0 egrep -i "xmpp|gtalk"
Oct 31 22:43:52 <spikebike> is the command I user to find any use of gtalk/xmpp
Oct 31 22:44:18 <Grunewald> http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/packages/apps/Calendar.git;a=summary
Oct 31 22:44:23 <Grunewald> http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/packages/providers/CalendarProvider.git;a=summary+
Oct 31 22:44:37 <Grunewald> sorry put an accidental plus at the end of the last URL
Oct 31 22:45:38 <spikebike> ah, crap I upgrade ubuntu and now firefox dies with strange messages till I reboot
Oct 31 22:45:55 <Grunewald> sucks
Oct 31 22:46:06 <Grunewald> can I give you any urls ?
Oct 31 22:46:10 <Grunewald> maybe the git url?
Oct 31 22:46:26 <spikebike> restarting firefox might work, trying
Oct 31 22:46:33 <Grunewald> haha yes
Oct 31 22:47:09 <spikebike> works
Oct 31 22:47:18 <spikebike> don't want to reboot at the moment
Oct 31 22:47:24 <Grunewald> Oh btw. Upgrading to 9.10 killed my sun-java5-sdk so the AOSP wont compile anymore only works with java 5 as it seems so if you need it you need to add the jaunty multiverse again
Oct 31 22:47:35 <spikebike> ugh
Oct 31 22:47:47 <spikebike> did they move to java 1.6 for android 2.0?
Oct 31 22:47:59 <spikebike> for the moment I've not been doing any compiling, just reading
Oct 31 22:48:04 <Grunewald> no idea. since 2.0 is not out we will find out when it is there
Oct 31 22:49:20 <spikebike> I'll definitely check out what I can find about the calendar sync test
Oct 31 22:49:52 <Grunewald> but remember it's all going to change signifcantly with android 2.0 and the new sync framework
Oct 31 22:50:01 <spikebike> yeah
Oct 31 22:50:51 <spikebike> Alas all the sync stuff I've seen is about contacts, seems silly to restrict for a special service
Oct 31 22:51:07 <spikebike> I've not yet looked close enough to see if it's really limited to that
Oct 31 22:51:16 <stuff> stuff is an unfortunate irc name
Oct 31 22:51:16 <spikebike> if it's not I might just go get me a droid next week
Oct 31 22:51:42 <Grunewald> stuff haha that's true
Oct 31 22:52:11 <stuff> I want a droid
Oct 31 22:52:13 <stuff> but at the same time
Oct 31 22:52:20 <stuff> I want to keep my youthful ass
Oct 31 22:52:28 <stuff> ; I don't want to get fucked by verison
Oct 31 22:52:29 <GiantTalkingCow> I'm gonna have to try the keyboard first, but I'll admit it looks nice.
Oct 31 22:52:33 <spikebike> heh
Oct 31 22:52:46 <spikebike> is verizon particularly bad (for a cell phone carrier)
Oct 31 22:52:57 <nathansu> lol no.
Oct 31 22:52:59 <spikebike> I'm dying to know how much memory is reported by free
Oct 31 22:53:12 <spikebike> g1 has 192, but only about 100 reported by free
Oct 31 22:53:41 <zinx> spikebike: ask San
Oct 31 22:53:42 * nathansu has had all the cell phone providers in the last 10 years and Verizon is by far the friendliest.
Oct 31 22:53:48 <GiantTalkingCow> Hard to say. Some people bitch about them, whereas the last time I was on their network, I had nothing but good experiences with 'em.
Oct 31 22:53:59 <spikebike> zinx: I'll ask san when I see him
Oct 31 22:54:15 <spikebike> I've got tmo (2 g1s), but my mom has verizon and is happy
Oct 31 22:54:16 <stuff> nathansu, where do you live?
Oct 31 22:54:19 <nathansu> CA
Oct 31 22:54:28 <stuff> they're very expensive
Oct 31 22:54:30 <stuff> I'm in chicago
Oct 31 22:54:33 <spikebike> my master plan is to give my g1 to her (thus not cancelling my contract) and buying a droid
Oct 31 22:54:39 * nathansu gets a 20% discount on service
Oct 31 22:54:43 <nathansu> w/Verizon
Oct 31 22:54:49 <spikebike> nathansu: how?
Oct 31 22:54:51 <stuff> how
Oct 31 22:54:53 <stuff> heh
Oct 31 22:54:54 <nathansu> through my company.
Oct 31 22:55:00 <spikebike> I get 20% from tmo
Oct 31 22:55:07 <stuff> hmm
Oct 31 22:55:15 <spikebike> pre tax/fees, about 16% after
Oct 31 22:55:19 <stuff> yeah, aren't really any ways to cut corners
Oct 31 22:55:32 <stuff> unless someone makes all of the features work on Tmo, for examples (of the droid)
Oct 31 22:55:38 <spikebike> although the new tmo plans sound good, but are rumored to kill the discount
Oct 31 22:55:40 <stuff> which I'm sure they tried to make impossible
Oct 31 22:55:51 <nathansu> even still - $129 for two phones w/ unlimited messaging, data + 700 minutes is pretty damn good.
Oct 31 22:55:55 <nathansu> before discount
Oct 31 22:56:01 <spikebike> well droid = verizon and won't work with gsm (let alone 3g)
Oct 31 22:56:21 <spikebike> well the new 1500 minute plan is about the same on tmo
Oct 31 22:56:24 <stuff> droid isn't 3g?
Oct 31 22:56:26 <spikebike> $129 ish
Oct 31 22:56:30 <spikebike> droid is verizon
Oct 31 22:56:46 <stuff> well how am i supposed to be able to get reasonable browsing speed
Oct 31 22:56:50 <stuff> or use pandora
Oct 31 22:56:57 <nathansu> er....lol
Oct 31 22:57:05 <spikebike> 3g works on verizon, just can't move g1/droid between tmo/verizon
Oct 31 22:57:22 <zinx> EVDO works on verizon...
Oct 31 22:57:27 <stuff> I thought you just said it isnt 3g
Oct 31 22:57:45 <stuff> 2000$ for 2 year contract is insane
Oct 31 22:57:54 <nathansu> 2000$ for what stuff?
Oct 31 22:57:58 <stuff> that is a decent fucking car right there
Oct 31 22:58:01 <stuff> 2 years of verison
Oct 31 22:58:12 <nathansu> idk that's pretty reasonable for any smartphone.
Oct 31 22:58:18 <stuff> I estimated 140 for 3 phones, one of them data 700mins/mo
Oct 31 22:58:21 <spikebike> reasoanble I'm not so sure
Oct 31 22:58:27 <nathansu> vs. what?
Oct 31 22:58:39 <stuff> I don't know
Oct 31 22:58:41 <spikebike> but very common iphone on AT&T, droid on verizon, or g1s on tmo
Oct 31 22:58:41 <nathansu> lol
Oct 31 22:58:52 <nathansu> all smartphone plans are more expensive than naked voice plans.
Oct 31 22:58:56 <stuff> 20$/mo per unlimited 'texting device'
Oct 31 22:58:56 <stuff> ug
Oct 31 22:58:57 <stuff> what a waste
Oct 31 22:58:58 <nathansu> that's how it's been forever.
Oct 31 22:59:00 <spikebike> and I find having kids, wife, and complicated life that 2 smart phones is an amazing help
Oct 31 22:59:02 <nathansu> what?
Oct 31 22:59:02 <stuff> texting is literally free for them
Oct 31 22:59:16 <stuff> and most people don't have 3g, so I'll have to use mostly texting instead of aim
Oct 31 22:59:17 <spikebike> stuff texting on tmo is optional
Oct 31 22:59:20 <nathansu> spikebike : couldn't agree more.
Oct 31 22:59:24 <stuff> we're talking verison here
Oct 31 22:59:28 <stuff> ; droid
Oct 31 23:00:03 <nathansu> where are you seeing that texting is $20?
Oct 31 23:00:04 <nathansu> lol
Oct 31 23:00:14 <spikebike> btw
Oct 31 23:00:21 <stuff> verison unlimited texting
Oct 31 23:00:23 <spikebike> verizon claims droid "is wide open"
Oct 31 23:00:28 <spikebike> I wonder if that means root
Oct 31 23:00:29 <stuff> what does that mean?
Oct 31 23:00:31 <zinx> spikebike: no
Oct 31 23:00:39 <stuff> all of the features only work on verison
Oct 31 23:00:46 <zinx> spikebike: it means you don't have to purchase your ringtones/apps directly from verizon
Oct 31 23:00:54 <stuff> I'm mostly wondering about anonymity, as always
Oct 31 23:01:30 <Grunewald> spikebike check this out http://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=533
Oct 31 23:01:52 <Grunewald> http://davanum.wordpress.com/2007/11/23/totally-unofficial-android-gtalk-client-sendreceive-xmpp-messages/
Oct 31 23:01:58 <Grunewald> very interesting stuff
Oct 31 23:02:02 <Grunewald> older but interesting
Oct 31 23:04:35 <stuff> nathansu, what do you know about the speed between different networks?
Oct 31 23:04:55 <nathansu> verizon speed is great, never had an issue or heard of people having any issues.
Oct 31 23:04:57 <stuff> I've sprint right now in chicago, and they tell me that if i get a smart phone theyll have the fastest network
Oct 31 23:04:59 <nathansu> att sucks my ass
Oct 31 23:05:07 <nathansu> sprint is pretty good
Oct 31 23:05:16 <nathansu> t-mo is decent depending on where you're at
Oct 31 23:05:19 <stuff> which is the fastest do you think?
Oct 31 23:05:30 <starzero> hello, i am just beginning with android (but not with java) ... i'm wondering why the avd emulator types out asian characters by default?  is there a way to change this?
Oct 31 23:05:40 <nathansu> hard to say since I've not taken one phone and tested it on all networks
Oct 31 23:05:53 <stuff> you've done speed tests?
Oct 31 23:06:00 <nathansu> but the network I've had the least problems with and generally the best experience with is verizon.
Oct 31 23:06:10 <nathansu> no, just said I _had not_ done that.
Oct 31 23:06:14 <stuff> It is crazy how hard speed tests are to find for these ubiquitous devices
Oct 31 23:06:27 <stuff> well
Oct 31 23:06:31 <nathansu> I'd only be worried about speed if you're going to att or tmobile
Oct 31 23:06:37 <nathansu> the others are pretty much great.
Oct 31 23:06:39 <stuff> so you can get 3g out in rural areas?
Oct 31 23:06:46 <nathansu> depends.
Oct 31 23:06:47 <stuff> oh, why tmo?
Oct 31 23:06:59 <nathansu> they have spotty coverage depending on where you live.
Oct 31 23:07:06 <stuff> after reading, I found tmo to be the best, but they're not getting the droid
Oct 31 23:07:10 <nathansu> farther away from tower = slower speed.
Oct 31 23:07:14 <stuff> yeah
Oct 31 23:07:19 <nathansu> verizon has more towers
Oct 31 23:07:23 <nathansu> higher chance you're closer to one
Oct 31 23:07:25 <nathansu> = faster
Oct 31 23:07:30 <Versed> tmo is probably the worst of the the bunch, with vzw and sprint the best overall
Oct 31 23:07:30 <nathansu> if you want to think about it that way
Oct 31 23:07:34 <starzero> is there an xml tag that defines i18n universally or is that defined when you create the avd?
Oct 31 23:07:39 * nathansu agrees with Versed.
Oct 31 23:08:32 <stuff> sprint doesn't have any android phones i dont think
Oct 31 23:08:40 <nathansu> yes they do.
Oct 31 23:08:52 <Versed> they have the tour
Oct 31 23:08:57 <Versed> and will have the moment
Oct 31 23:09:02 <Versed> next week
Oct 31 23:09:24 <stuff> you think they've much different prices than vsn?
Oct 31 23:09:30 <nathansu> imo if you want the best network, go with Verizon.
Oct 31 23:09:31 <stuff> sprint, that is
Oct 31 23:09:33 <nathansu> sprint is good too.
Oct 31 23:09:44 <stuff> i have sprint and a very old shit ass phone right now
Oct 31 23:09:57 <nathansu> grab yourself a HTC device then.
Oct 31 23:10:08 <stuff> why?
Oct 31 23:10:11 <spikebike> anyone know where cyanogen's dev tools -> gtalk serivce monitor comes from?
Oct 31 23:10:13 <stuff> sprint is cheaper
Oct 31 23:10:36 <nathansu> sprint has HTC devices dood.
Oct 31 23:10:44 <Versed> I have a sprint broadband card, its good.
Oct 31 23:10:53 <tmzt> yes
Oct 31 23:11:02 <Versed> but use a Rogers Magic on AT&T
Oct 31 23:11:15 <Grunewald> spikebike it seems as far as I can read that Google removed the Gtalk service from the official API before the 1.0 Release so that might be were cyanogen pulled the stuff from
Oct 31 23:11:22 <tmzt> moment is nice
Oct 31 23:11:30 <spikebike> yeah, sadly that's true
Oct 31 23:11:44 <stuff> nathansu, but the droid kind of kicks the crap out of them
Oct 31 23:11:45 <tmzt> right, but that was xmpp based gtalk service
Oct 31 23:11:52 <spikebike> although this stuff is more recent than 1.0, so yes the api is gone, and a renaming of xmpp -> gtalk is underway
Oct 31 23:11:54 <nathansu> stuff : k then suck it up and go with verizon.
Oct 31 23:11:56 <stuff> I require tactile keyboard
Oct 31 23:11:57 <Versed> droids a nice phone.
Oct 31 23:12:04 <Versed> so is the moment
Oct 31 23:12:10 <stuff> best ive ever seen, yes
Oct 31 23:12:11 <nathansu> moment is nice too.
Oct 31 23:12:13 <tmzt> moment will probably have the best graphics but I can't confirm that
Oct 31 23:12:19 <spikebike> sony x3 looks potentially a droid competitor
Oct 31 23:12:32 <Versed> yeah
Oct 31 23:12:41 <spikebike> and the snapdragon looks like potentially nicer cpu than the cortex a8
Oct 31 23:12:52 <tmzt> ?
Oct 31 23:13:05 <tmzt> cortex a8 is the core
Oct 31 23:13:23 <tmzt> there is a8 version of snapdragon
Oct 31 23:13:40 <nathansu> do whatever devices that are goign to carry snapdragon going to come w/coprocessors?  The droid has a few to handle graphics.
Oct 31 23:13:46 <tmzt> same as iPhone 3gs (s5c samsung) Pre and n900 (omap3)
Oct 31 23:14:01 <tmzt> I didn't understand you before
Oct 31 23:14:10 <spikebike> tmzt: right, but the snap dragon is the first cortex a8 core on 45nm, I thought anyways
Oct 31 23:14:23 <tmzt> g1 has an ati graphics core which is not full programmable pipeline
Oct 31 23:14:36 <stuff> moment doesnt seem to have a lot of the features of droid, keybaord, accelerometer, but im still looking for a complete specs list
Oct 31 23:14:41 <tmzt> based on imageon
Oct 31 23:14:53 <tmzt> accel? bthat'sstandard
Oct 31 23:15:02 <tmzt> that's standard now
Oct 31 23:15:09 <tmzt> compass you might mean
Oct 31 23:15:39 <tmzt> node might matter for power
Oct 31 23:15:47 <tmzt> but it's still a cortex a8
Oct 31 23:15:49 <spikebike> I wonder if the droid can sense magnetic fields in a general way
Oct 31 23:15:56 <spikebike> or just has some small reed switches
Oct 31 23:15:56 <tmzt> not sure what you are comparing
Oct 31 23:16:08 <spikebike> the proximity sensor sounds nice as well
Oct 31 23:16:11 <tmzt> g1 has apkm compass
Oct 31 23:16:45 <tmzt> with different driver it can sense fields but that's very useful
Oct 31 23:17:00 <tmzt> you could use it to detect a magnet or something
Oct 31 23:17:19 <tmzt> that's not very useful
Oct 31 23:17:30 <spikebike> tmzt the thought I had was the droid @ 65nm and 550 Mhz would have similar power usage to the sony x3 @ 800 Mhz with a snapdragon
Oct 31 23:17:42 <nathansu> it's useful if you want an app to detect magnets lawl
Oct 31 23:17:43 <spikebike> well a dock that puts you in a particular mode is kinda cool
Oct 31 23:17:50 <tmzt> and what does droid/sholes have?
Oct 31 23:18:00 <spikebike> car mode, music mode, alarm clock mode etc.
Oct 31 23:18:19 <spikebike> droid/sholes has the 550 Mhz cortex a8, I think it's the omap
Oct 31 23:18:29 <tmzt> what chip?
Oct 31 23:18:32 <zinx> it's OMAP3430
Oct 31 23:18:37 <tmzt> omap3? what baseband?
Oct 31 23:18:53 <BigRedPimp> still hoping alarm clock/music mode will have widget access. I have a few things in mind for both but will probably be disappointed.
Oct 31 23:18:56 <tmzt> that is interesting
Oct 31 23:19:16 <tmzt> when are they in stores?
Oct 31 23:19:21 <BigRedPimp> 6.Nov
Oct 31 23:19:22 <spikebike> friday
Oct 31 23:19:44 <Renfield> I'm now free of my Hero.
Oct 31 23:19:51 <tmzt> gsm hero?
Oct 31 23:19:56 <Renfield> Sprint
Oct 31 23:20:05 <tmzt> oh, returned it?
Oct 31 23:20:09 <Renfield> Yes.
Oct 31 23:20:14 <tmzt> I see
Oct 31 23:20:14 <Renfield> So that I can get the Droid on Friday.
Oct 31 23:20:27 <stuff> renfield, where do you live?
Oct 31 23:20:34 <Renfield> New Hampshire.
Oct 31 23:20:35 <stuff> I'm also looking to switch from sprint to verison
Oct 31 23:20:36 <tmzt> it's confirmed to be Droid then?
Oct 31 23:20:45 <darweth> What will you do with the Droid?
Oct 31 23:20:46 <zinx> tmzt: yes
Oct 31 23:20:57 <Renfield> Everything.
Oct 31 23:21:00 <stuff> he will call people with it
Oct 31 23:21:02 <tmzt> not too happy about that
Oct 31 23:21:05 <stuff> "hello?"
Oct 31 23:21:13 <Renfield> "Can you hear me now?"
Oct 31 23:21:23 <stuff> yeah im dreading paying verisons fees
Oct 31 23:21:30 <tmzt> Everything for 135usd/month?
Oct 31 23:21:39 <zinx> so wait a bit for T-Mobile's UMTS Sholes...
Oct 31 23:21:41 <Renfield> Is that the rate?
Oct 31 23:21:42 <nathansu> stuff : I don't understand how the fees are any more unreasonable than any other smartphone plan...
Oct 31 23:21:49 <BigRedPimp> just be glad you don't have my plan, lol
Oct 31 23:21:56 <tmzt> Renfield: unlimited with data is close to that
Oct 31 23:21:59 <darweth> Verizon is as cheap as others as long as you are not interested in txt messengers.
Oct 31 23:22:04 <Renfield> I see a plan on Verizon's web site that costs $70.00.
Oct 31 23:22:04 <darweth> messages*
Oct 31 23:22:05 <stuff> how do you know tmo is getting droid phone too zinx?
Oct 31 23:22:08 <Renfield> With 450 minutes.
Oct 31 23:22:12 <tmzt> darweth: not correct
Oct 31 23:22:20 <zinx> stuff: leaked info
Oct 31 23:22:39 <tmzt> tmobile with 49/month sounds more interesting to me
Oct 31 23:22:45 <stuff> darwth, doesn't evenyone need some sort of texting capability?
Oct 31 23:22:53 <stuff> darweth*
Oct 31 23:22:54 <darweth> stuff: no. google voice.
Oct 31 23:22:54 <spikebike> why sms when you can IM?
Oct 31 23:23:01 <tmzt> Renfield: what plan?
Oct 31 23:23:03 <nathansu> I pay $129 for 2 phones, unlimited texting, data.
Oct 31 23:23:05 <spikebike> *or google voice)
Oct 31 23:23:09 <nathansu> that's pretty damn good.
Oct 31 23:23:13 <BigRedPimp> I have a family plan with 2 phones at 1400mins plus a 5gb data plan for the MiFi. we're somewhere in the ballpark of $250/mth and no, it doesn't come with lube :P
Oct 31 23:23:14 <stuff> because most people dont have im/3g - just texting
Oct 31 23:23:25 <Renfield> tmzt Connect 450.
Oct 31 23:23:26 <zinx> nathansu: two phone numbers, or just two phones?
Oct 31 23:23:27 <spikebike> BigRedPimp: damn dude, switch
Oct 31 23:23:30 <stuff> people just want to be able to get my number and then text to it
Oct 31 23:23:34 <darweth> stuff: well, google voice is compatible with any other SMS/txting.
Oct 31 23:23:40 <spikebike> 2 phones 1500 minutes, unlimited day = $130 ish
Oct 31 23:23:42 <nathansu> zinx : two phones, shared family plan.
Oct 31 23:23:43 <spikebike> data
Oct 31 23:23:44 <darweth> And uses the data.
Oct 31 23:23:45 <BigRedPimp> 2 phones. wife & my own
Oct 31 23:23:48 <tmzt> Renfield: oneline? fixed minutes?
Oct 31 23:23:53 <zinx> nathansu: one phone number, then?
Oct 31 23:23:55 <nathansu> nope
Oct 31 23:23:59 <Renfield> Unlimited data, text, picture & video, and mobile email.
Oct 31 23:24:12 <Renfield> tmzt Online it shows it 450 minutes, same as I had with Sprint.
Oct 31 23:24:12 <BigRedPimp> I'm afraid to see the bill once we get our Droids
Oct 31 23:24:21 <nathansu> I'm unaware of any family plan that will bind one number to two phones - never heard of that.
Oct 31 23:24:33 <stuff> so there is no reason to pay for texting anymore darweth?
Oct 31 23:24:54 <Renfield> The only thing I see that is better with Sprint is that nights start at 7:00 instead of 9:00, and they had unlimited mobile-to-mobile to any mobile phone.
Oct 31 23:24:57 <darweth> not if you use google voice.
Oct 31 23:25:11 <darweth> Renfield: It is a smartphone! Who uses it to call?
Oct 31 23:25:11 <stuff> and that is free i take it
Oct 31 23:25:13 <Renfield> But for me, I do not talk much, so 450 minutes is enough regardless.
Oct 31 23:25:14 <stuff> I'll have to read
Oct 31 23:26:03 <Renfield> I hope I'm reading their website correctly. I'd hate find out that I will be paying much more than Sprint.
Oct 31 23:26:14 <stuff> let me get this straight, 1) your phone supports google voice 2) you have no texting plan 3) someone texts you 4) it works for free
Oct 31 23:26:15 <stuff> ?
Oct 31 23:26:19 <BigRedPimp> phone... call? what is this term? I never knew you could call people from a phone. I thought it was textual.
Oct 31 23:26:23 <BigRedPimp> :P
Oct 31 23:26:28 <Renfield> Heh.
Oct 31 23:26:35 <stuff> renfield, when I looked they seemed a lot more expernsive
Oct 31 23:26:39 <Renfield> stuff: Yea, it uses your data plan.
Oct 31 23:26:41 <darweth> stuff: you txt within your Google Voice program.
Oct 31 23:26:49 <darweth> You use your GV #
Oct 31 23:27:03 <stuff> what if they only have my phone number?
Oct 31 23:27:12 <darweth> They need your GV #
Oct 31 23:27:15 <stuff> if i have to give people two numbers everytime then....
Oct 31 23:27:16 <stuff> ug
Oct 31 23:27:22 <stuff> yeah, that isn't going to work very well
Oct 31 23:27:28 <spikebike> why 2?
Oct 31 23:27:31 <spikebike> just give the gv number?
Oct 31 23:27:39 <stuff> in case they want to call or text
Oct 31 23:27:41 <Renfield> stuff: It was difficult to find the plan. I selected view plans -> individual plans -> view all plans. Then there is a table and one of them is called Connect Plans starting at $69.99.
Oct 31 23:27:50 <spikebike> gv numbers can be called and text'd
Oct 31 23:27:51 <darweth> GV fwds to your normal #
Oct 31 23:28:05 <stuff> they shouldnt have to think 1) if i want to call him, i need this number 2) if i want to text him i need that number
Oct 31 23:28:19 <spikebike> stuff right, that number is the gv number
Oct 31 23:28:34 <Renfield> stuff: It all works with your Google Voice number. You don't even need to give out your Cell number if you do not want.
Oct 31 23:28:35 <stuff> so then i dont ever use a phone number anymore?
Oct 31 23:28:44 <darweth> a gv # is a phone #
Oct 31 23:28:47 <stuff> but then i call them back and they see my reg phone number
Oct 31 23:28:52 <BigRedPimp> hmm, if you text the GV number, that text can be sent to multiple phones too
Oct 31 23:28:53 <Renfield> Nope.
Oct 31 23:28:58 <spikebike> if you are home you can set home to ring, if at work work can ring, if driving cell phone can ring
Oct 31 23:29:11 <spikebike> don't make everyone aware of which phone you want to ring, where you are, etc.
Oct 31 23:29:13 <Renfield> Android phones are integrated with GV, and can make the call using GV, so they see your GV number.
Oct 31 23:29:26 <stuff> hmmm
Oct 31 23:29:33 <stuff> so all i need is voice and data plan
Oct 31 23:29:43 <Renfield> Once set up, neither you nor your friends ever need to know that you are using Google Voice.
Oct 31 23:29:55 <Renfield> It works pretty much seamlessly.
Oct 31 23:29:56 <stuff> or maybe just data?
Oct 31 23:30:00 <stuff> voip over data?
Oct 31 23:30:01 <darweth> Renfield: one exception
Oct 31 23:30:04 <darweth> GV does not do MMS
Oct 31 23:30:08 <Renfield> Oh.
Oct 31 23:30:14 <Renfield> I've never done MMS myself.
Oct 31 23:30:28 <Renfield> I think you still need voice.
Oct 31 23:30:41 <stuff> mms is how you get pics right?
Oct 31 23:30:43 <darweth> GV uses your minutes.
Oct 31 23:30:48 <darweth> stuff: yes
Oct 31 23:30:54 <stuff> yeah, I'm not buying a texting plan just some idiots can sent their emo pics
Oct 31 23:30:55 <spikebike> yeah gv != voip
Oct 31 23:30:57 <BigRedPimp> you'll need voice since it's just forwarding the call
Oct 31 23:31:11 <Renfield> If you have those "Friends and family" plans, you make your GV number one of your friends, and then calls do not use your minutes.
Oct 31 23:31:16 <stuff> but can you use voip over 3g?
Oct 31 23:31:19 <spikebike> not that you can't point gv -> voip -> g1 -> sipdroid
Oct 31 23:31:19 <stuff> with droid?
Oct 31 23:31:26 <BigRedPimp> Renfield: good idea. didn't think about that.
Oct 31 23:31:48 <spikebike> friends and family on tmo is gone
Oct 31 23:31:57 <spikebike> and gv is often blocked from myfaces anywyas
Oct 31 23:32:01 <spikebike> myfaves
Oct 31 23:32:04 <Renfield> BigRedPimp: I'm not sure, but I've heard rumors that this is the reason that AT&T wanted the GV app removed from the iPhone app store.
Oct 31 23:32:12 <spikebike> the contract says no favorite for any number that's a gateway
Oct 31 23:32:26 <Renfield> Oh.
Oct 31 23:32:32 <Renfield> I did not know that.
Oct 31 23:32:41 <stuff> jesus this shit is confusing
Oct 31 23:32:44 <BigRedPimp> hmm, might have to look at my contract then. I use it for a conference call line for work stuff.
Oct 31 23:32:45 <Renfield> Heh.
Oct 31 23:33:03 <stuff> i wont need a new # in order to get google voice, right?
Oct 31 23:33:04 <spikebike> well small scale stuff likely wouldn't get caught
Oct 31 23:33:07 <darweth> It is not that confusing.
Oct 31 23:33:12 <darweth> stuff: the GV is your new #.
Oct 31 23:33:15 <spikebike> if a ton of people point to google voice your chances are much worse
Oct 31 23:33:34 <zinx> stuff: if you only want voice mail, no, you don't need a new one
Oct 31 23:33:46 <darweth> Yeah. He wants SMS so he needs one. :)
Oct 31 23:33:51 <BigRedPimp> you'd at least think Verizon would allow it given this partnership
Oct 31 23:34:32 <stuff> so if i dont want to pay for texting, ill have to change my phone number..
Oct 31 23:34:40 <darweth> VZW has no interest in letting you get unlimited minutes over their network for free.
Oct 31 23:34:41 <stuff> long story short ^
Oct 31 23:34:51 <Renfield> You'll have to use another number for the text messages.
Oct 31 23:34:54 <darweth> stuff: your provider # remains the same.
Oct 31 23:35:15 <spikebike> I wouldn't call verizon's data plan "free"
Oct 31 23:36:17 <stuff> can't change my ph# due to my business
Oct 31 23:36:31 <Renfield> I hope Verizon doesn't bump up their rates on November 6th.
Oct 31 23:36:50 <Renfield> stuff: Do you use SMS for your business?
Oct 31 23:36:55 <Renfield> Or just voice?
Oct 31 23:37:26 <stuff> no, but for friends a lot, and I mix the two
Oct 31 23:37:38 <stuff> i.e. I want to give everyone 1 #
Oct 31 23:37:48 <zinx> stuff: you can give everyone your 1 google voice number
Oct 31 23:37:50 <spikebike> I particularly like gv for that kind of thing
Oct 31 23:38:02 <Renfield> You can continue to have all business calls made to your current cell phone number, and you can have all of your friends use your GV number for both voice and SMS.
Oct 31 23:38:03 <spikebike> so if a friend SMS's I can get it even if I don't have a cell signal
Oct 31 23:38:17 <nathansu> stuff : what zinx said
Oct 31 23:38:55 <darweth> I need to go now. I trust Renfield to steer stuff  in the right direction. Bye.
Oct 31 23:39:04 <stuff> thanks
Oct 31 23:39:15 <Renfield> Wow. And I don't think we know each other.
Oct 31 23:39:20 <stuff> but I'll have to change my phone number in order to use GV
Oct 31 23:39:24 <nathansu> so?
Oct 31 23:39:24 <Renfield> Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Oct 31 23:39:40 <stuff> I can't change my phone number because clients know it
Oct 31 23:39:44 <stuff> lots of them*
Oct 31 23:39:53 <zinx> stuff: you still get calls to the old number
Oct 31 23:40:00 <zbohon> you can sign up for GV just as a voicemail service and keep your current phone number
Oct 31 23:40:04 <Renfield> stuff: Not exactly. I did hear recently that there is a change to GV allowing you to use your current number as a GV number. I am unsure how that works though.
Oct 31 23:40:14 <zinx> Renfield: it only allows voicemail
Oct 31 23:40:22 <Renfield> Oh, ok thanks zinx.
Oct 31 23:40:32 <zinx> stuff: when you get GV with a new number, people can call the GV number or the number your carrier gave you
Oct 31 23:40:48 <stuff> yeah, and the only reason I'll be using GV is to avoid the 20$/mo of sms/texting fees
Oct 31 23:41:03 <zinx> stuff: tell people who SMS you to use the new number
Oct 31 23:41:13 <zinx> getting new numbers is not so strange is it? o_O
Oct 31 23:41:28 <stuff> so ill have two numbers for one phone
Oct 31 23:41:32 <stuff> that is somewhat strange
Oct 31 23:41:33 <Renfield> stuff: Unfortunately, you can't have Google start managing your number for you. It is managed by your carrier, and if you want the GV benefits, you need to use the GV number.
Oct 31 23:41:34 <stuff> strange*
Oct 31 23:42:06 <spikebike> heh, new tmonews rumor of a sholes on tmo
Oct 31 23:42:14 <zbohon> stuff: the gv number can be attached to serveral phones think of it as a really sexy forwarding service
Oct 31 23:42:19 <stuff> what happens when someone texts a phone without text capability?
Oct 31 23:42:23 <stuff> or without text plan
Oct 31 23:42:28 <spikebike> kinda amusing that of the zillion android phones out there's really only the g1 and the droid
Oct 31 23:42:46 <spikebike> mytouch3g/g1/hero/droid eris = same hardware
Oct 31 23:42:50 <zbohon> stuff: you can set gv to not send them forward or to send them to your e-mail.  I mostly use GV for texting from my computer
Oct 31 23:42:54 <spikebike> well give or take a keyboard
Oct 31 23:43:03 <Renfield> spikebike: They're all the same hardware?
Oct 31 23:43:17 <Renfield> No wonder the Hero was dog slow.
Oct 31 23:43:23 <Renfield> I mean pathetically slow.
Oct 31 23:43:33 <spikebike> ya
Oct 31 23:43:36 <stuff> droid isnt the same
Oct 31 23:43:40 <stuff> hw
Oct 31 23:43:41 <spikebike> several generation old cpu
Oct 31 23:43:46 <spikebike> droid = new
Oct 31 23:43:52 <Renfield> At any given moment I could never expect to respond to my touch.
Oct 31 23:44:07 <stuff> pun?
Oct 31 23:44:10 <stuff> heh
Oct 31 23:44:11 <spikebike> several generation old cpu and fancy new cpu intensive gui
Oct 31 23:44:13 <vinares> hi! I am trying to download the sdk but there is trooble with the url http://dl-ssl.google.com/android/eclipse/
Oct 31 23:44:21 <Renfield> The Droid Eris is old hardware though.
Oct 31 23:44:30 <Renfield> I wish they wouldn't call it that.
Oct 31 23:44:39 <Renfield> There an be only one Droid.
Oct 31 23:44:45 <vinares> does anyone have a good link for sdk adt plugin
Oct 31 23:44:46 <zbohon> I thought Droid was supposed to be a big bad iPhone killer
Oct 31 23:44:47 <vinares> ?
Oct 31 23:44:59 <spikebike> ya
Oct 31 23:45:01 <nathansu> vinares : http://developer.android.com/sdk/index.html
Oct 31 23:45:04 <zinx> zbohon: isn't every smart phone ever released now supposed to be that, according to the media?
Oct 31 23:45:14 <Renfield> I do not think there is an iPhone killer. But the Droid is a fine competitor.
Oct 31 23:45:26 <spikebike> droid's got a better chance than most, and is the first android widget with an iphone 3gs competitivve cpu
Oct 31 23:45:31 <zbohon> zinx: yeah but I have verizon so I got a bit excited about Droid
Oct 31 23:45:35 <nathansu> Having had an iphone for a while, the android platform is far superior to the iPhone's.
Oct 31 23:45:39 <nathansu> by far, IMO.
Oct 31 23:46:07 <Renfield> I really enjoy the development environment and culture of Android.
Oct 31 23:46:09 <vinares> nathansu: I download the sdk on this page but after it download file on dl-ssl.google.com/android which is unavailable
Oct 31 23:46:24 <nathansu> Renfield : same here.
Oct 31 23:46:37 <nathansu> I've been developing for less than a month and am really enjoying myself.
Oct 31 23:46:45 <steup> vinares : use the same urlk with http: not https:
Oct 31 23:46:49 <steup> url
Oct 31 23:46:57 <Renfield> If I am not mistaken, you can only develop iPhone apps on a Mac.
Oct 31 23:46:58 <vinares> steup: same trouble
Oct 31 23:47:09 <zbohon> Has anyone played with the android scripting environment?  I am excited to do python on android
Oct 31 23:47:21 <steup> ok sorry, no idea then
Oct 31 23:47:22 <nathansu> Renfield : and you have to battle through Apple to get your apps published, publish patches to your apps, etc.
Oct 31 23:47:24 <zinx> Renfield: officially, you're correct - there *may* be third-party stuff for other platforms now, but it's all completely unofficial
Oct 31 23:48:15 <Renfield> I can kind of see why Apple would do that; sell more Macs. But I run Linux, and I've already downloaded the Android SDK and I'm off an developing. No muss no fuss.
Oct 31 23:48:39 <stuff> what steps have you guys heard of for security and anonymity in the world of smart phones/massive identify information
Oct 31 23:48:43 <zinx> and the Android SDK runs in windows/mac/linux :/
Oct 31 23:49:15 <stuff> I know there is tor on android now, but that doesn't integrate with most tools - google maps, GV, gmail, etc
Oct 31 23:49:49 <Renfield> stuff: You could probably set up a proxy at home, point your phone at the proxy, and have that home proxy use Tor.
Oct 31 23:51:18 <zinx> VPN
Oct 31 23:51:21 <tmzt> Renfield: what do you gain by that?
Oct 31 23:51:26 <tmzt> or that
Oct 31 23:51:33 <tmzt> just use tor from g1
Oct 31 23:51:38 <tmzt> if you really want to
Oct 31 23:51:59 <zinx> yeah, but as stated, that doesn't work with the system..
Oct 31 23:52:50 <spikebike> there's already a webkit+tor setup for android
Oct 31 23:53:16 <tmzt> webkit?
Oct 31 23:53:22 <tmzt> you mean for proxy?
Oct 31 23:53:31 <tmzt> if you have root just tproxy it
Oct 31 23:53:38 <tmzt> use iptabels
Oct 31 23:53:41 <tmzt> tables
Oct 31 23:53:42 <Renfield> tmzt: stuff mentioned that Tor isn't well integrated with most tools.
Oct 31 23:54:00 <spikebike> tmzt for tor for browsing without root
Oct 31 23:54:35 <Renfield> So I surmised that most tools that talk http would honor your proxy setting, and the route I explained would push all your http communications over Tor.
Oct 31 23:55:18 <zinx> or use a VPN :x
Oct 31 23:55:41 <Renfield> Though wait a bit, first it would have to go through the network outside of Tor. So that was a dumb idea.
Oct 31 23:55:51 <Renfield> VPN is probably better.
Oct 31 23:56:18 <spikebike> a friend improved android's vpn support
Oct 31 23:56:29 <spikebike> apparently the openssl libs are missing one of the common pieces
Oct 31 23:56:39 <spikebike> he tried to get cyanogen to include it
Oct 31 23:56:54 <vinares> steup I find adding sdkman.force.http=true  to conf file
Oct 31 23:57:27 <tmzt> vpn is same
Oct 31 23:57:47 <tmzt> tor is for anonymity if you access your own ip it's pointless
Oct 31 23:58:08 <zinx> tmzt: uhm
Oct 31 23:58:17 <tmzt> Renfield: hardly, they use different apis for networking
Oct 31 23:58:24 <zinx> tmzt: you can use tor through the VPN by having your computer route stuff from the VPN through tor
Oct 31 23:58:26 <tmzt> webkit's is native code I think
Oct 31 23:58:35 <tmzt> webkit on android I mean
Oct 31 23:58:50 <zinx> you don't get UDP though
Oct 31 23:58:57 <zinx> well, i don't think
Oct 31 23:59:02 <tmzt> zinx: still, traffic analysis is an issue
Oct 31 23:59:14 <tmzt> it also suvgests you have no reason for using tor
Oct 31 23:59:21 <zinx> tmzt: with this specific setup, or with tor in general?
Oct 31 23:59:30 <tmzt> your already using a sim in your name
Oct 31 23:59:32 <tmzt> what?
Nov 01 00:03:01 <tmzt> zinx: what do you mean
Nov 01 00:03:17 <zinx> tmzt: <tmzt> zinx: still, traffic analysis is an issue <zinx> tmzt: with this specific setup, or with tor in general?
Nov 01 00:03:33 <tmzt> can't comment on tor
Nov 01 00:03:35 <zinx> tmzt: i do not understand how the VPN<->tor setup would increase the traffic analysis issue
Nov 01 00:03:47 <tmzt> you are using your home ip
Nov 01 00:03:58 <zinx> tmzt: yes?
Nov 01 00:04:05 <tmzt> plus most vpn protocols are bad for hiding the amount of data
Nov 01 00:04:06 <zinx> tmzt: they would link your phone to your home ip
Nov 01 00:04:12 <tmzt> right
Nov 01 00:04:28 <zinx> tmzt: i am assuming they've already done so, considering you have to pay the bills for it
Nov 01 00:04:30 <tmzt> tor uses padding
Nov 01 00:04:35 <tmzt> sure
Nov 01 00:04:41 <tmzt> which is the question
Nov 01 00:04:50 <tmzt> what is gained by using tor?
Nov 01 00:05:15 <zinx> for everything?  i don't know, seems silly :d
Nov 01 00:05:21 <zinx> for only the browser it could make sense
Nov 01 00:05:40 <tmzt> how?
Nov 01 00:05:55 <zinx> carrier/whoever not knowing what you're browsing
Nov 01 00:06:15 <tmzt> so just use vpn/proxy
Nov 01 00:06:29 <zinx> that doesn't prevent /whoever
Nov 01 00:06:35 <tmzt> know your advesary
Nov 01 00:06:41 <tmzt> who is whoever
Nov 01 00:06:46 <zinx> anyone
Nov 01 00:06:57 <tmzt> know your advasary
Nov 01 00:07:08 <tmzt> still can't spell it
Nov 01 00:07:19 <zinx> you're missing an r
Nov 01 00:07:26 <zinx> and the ability to make any sense whatsoever
Nov 01 00:07:28 <tmzt> adversary
Nov 01 00:07:53 <zinx> (ok, maybe that was a bit far :P )
Nov 01 00:08:17 <zbohon> what if you vpn into your home network and then route that traffic through tor?
Nov 01 00:08:35 <zinx> tmzt: let us assume that there is a known someone he wants to prevent from knowing what he's browsing, who has access to packets from both his home and his phone
Nov 01 00:08:58 <zbohon> I mean you'd probably show up on some NSA list for being a paranoid weirdo but they wouldn't really know anything else about you
Nov 01 00:09:31 * zinx has probably been on the paranoid weirdo list for a long time
Nov 01 00:12:56 <tmzt> zinx: I never bothered with tor, even if you trust it to encapsulate dns requests and never send third party cookies
Nov 01 00:13:29 <tmzt> so for some version of the scenario you just mentioned it might be useful
Nov 01 00:13:33 <zinx> nothing i do even matters, tbqh
Nov 01 00:14:11 <tmzt> but I'm only saying that using a known ip and vpn weakens the anonymity which would seem to be the goal if your using tor
Nov 01 00:14:48 <tmzt> it also means not using your own email account reader voice or whatever
Nov 01 00:14:51 <spikebike> ya, tor helps, but it's not magic
Nov 01 00:15:03 <spikebike> much better if the enemy only sniffs your target
Nov 01 00:15:05 <Renfield> When you use Tor, it is already known that your IP is using Tor.
Nov 01 00:15:16 <Renfield> I think.
Nov 01 00:15:20 <zinx> tmzt: yeah... tbqh the scenario where it would be useful is the one the existing tor stuff supports
Nov 01 00:15:26 <tmzt> because when you do (or if you could accepting one of my conditions above) you associate the exit ip with your account
Nov 01 00:15:28 <zinx> Renfield: yes, it is
Nov 01 00:15:31 <spikebike> it's great for each a security lab and logging into each machine in the lab from a random IP address once a minute
Nov 01 00:15:38 <Renfield> So now you are just using your phone to go to your own IP, and then back out using Tor.
Nov 01 00:15:54 <tmzt> you also associate yourself with other users of that exit node
Nov 01 00:15:55 <zbohon> I think the solution to your problem is laptop + cantenna + aircrack
Nov 01 00:16:32 <tmzt> there are some tor gateway users here occasionally
Nov 01 00:16:49 <tmzt> they probably have their freenode nick only associated with tor
Nov 01 00:16:50 <Renfield> But anyway I think stuff is the one who was interested in such solutions.
Nov 01 00:17:12 <tmzt> in that case it would seem to be useful for their purposes
Nov 01 00:17:37 <Renfield> I'd like to set up a proxy for my phone just to get rid of the ads.
Nov 01 00:17:52 <zbohon> has anyone used android on the beagleboard?
Nov 01 00:18:10 <steup> Renfield: simply use a hosts file
Nov 01 00:18:20 <zinx> Renfield: privoxy ftw
Nov 01 00:19:08 <tmzt> ah more overspecified solutions
Nov 01 00:19:24 <zinx> hosts file isn't sufficient to block ads properly :D
Nov 01 00:19:36 <zinx> adblockplus style would be best, probably
Nov 01 00:19:52 <tmzt> wait for firefox/fennec
Nov 01 00:20:01 <tmzt> maybe on android someday
Nov 01 00:20:05 <zinx> but that requires implementing it - there was an implementation, but it sucked, and was a direct translation of some old javascript which made *no* sense to directly translate
Nov 01 00:20:16 <tmzt> zbohon: some have tried
Nov 01 00:20:21 <Renfield> Yes, Privoxy.
Nov 01 00:20:22 <tmzt> don't have details
Nov 01 00:21:11 <Renfield> Overspecified solution?
Nov 01 00:22:03 <tmzt> Renfield: bloatware?
Nov 01 00:22:46 <tmzt> Renfield: not sure, I remeber it having every possible tool to improve "privacy" in one convientient package with web configuration
Nov 01 00:23:09 <zinx> tmzt: privoxy?
Nov 01 00:23:24 <tmzt> yes
Nov 01 00:23:43 <zinx> would you rather have 10 little proxies chained or one that does 10 things?
Nov 01 00:23:48 <tmzt> seriously, it's not right for me
Nov 01 00:24:15 <tmzt> I would rather not use a http proxy at all where a browser solution is preferrable
Nov 01 00:24:16 <Renfield> Oh.
Nov 01 00:24:27 <Renfield> I didn't know. I've used it for years.
Nov 01 00:24:43 <tmzt> does it work for you?
Nov 01 00:24:46 <Renfield> Yes.
Nov 01 00:24:57 <tmzt> what do you use it for? whitelist/blacklist?
Nov 01 00:25:32 <Renfield> Well, I right now I use it with Tor. But I used to use it for ad blocking before ad block plus.
Nov 01 00:26:00 <Renfield> I think when I used it, it was a black list.
Nov 01 00:26:13 <tmzt> I see
Nov 01 00:26:32 <tmzt> why do you need it for tor? doesn't tor have socks5 proxy?
Nov 01 00:26:52 <Renfield> Hmmm, I'm not sure now.
Nov 01 00:27:11 <steup> tzmyeah it has
Nov 01 00:27:19 <steup> oops
Nov 01 00:27:26 <Renfield> I know I have Tor on my gateway computer, and I think maybe use Privoxy for the other computers to go through that one.
Nov 01 00:27:45 <tmzt> I see
Nov 01 00:28:00 <Renfield> I run Gentoo, so I just set it up the way they said. It works, so no complaints here.
Nov 01 00:28:19 <tmzt> part of the problem is I use new profiles in firefox
Nov 01 00:28:27 <tmzt> and session saving
Nov 01 00:28:52 <tmzt> so a proxy would make things more difficult
Nov 01 00:28:58 <Renfield> Each new profile would need to be configured with a proxy, is that it?
Nov 01 00:29:04 <tmzt> yes
Nov 01 00:29:15 <tmzt> probably a way around that
Nov 01 00:29:22 <Renfield> Doesn't the ad block plus plugin need to be configured with each profile?
Nov 01 00:29:25 <tmzt> but I don't have much interest
Nov 01 00:29:31 <tmzt> I don't use it
Nov 01 00:29:35 <Renfield> Oh.
Nov 01 00:29:40 <tmzt> what do you block?
Nov 01 00:29:44 <tmzt> gads?
Nov 01 00:30:23 <tmzt> I have used flash click to view in the past
Nov 01 00:30:39 <Renfield> I block pretty much all ads. Maybe not google ads because they are so unobtrusive.
Nov 01 00:30:40 <tmzt> flash is the one stability problem I have on karmic amd64
Nov 01 00:30:40 <spikebike> yeah I use flash blocker, really nice
Nov 01 00:30:55 <spikebike> tmzt oh?  I've had good luck so far
Nov 01 00:31:02 <Renfield> I use ABP and NoScript.
Nov 01 00:31:07 <tmzt> npviewer.bin
Nov 01 00:31:12 <tmzt> noscript?
Nov 01 00:31:24 <Renfield> Yes, it turns off JavaScript.
Nov 01 00:31:24 <spikebike> it installed some 32 bit wrapper and 32 bit flash as far as I can tell
Nov 01 00:31:34 <Renfield> I think it also manages Flash.
Nov 01 00:31:56 <tmzt> turn off javascript? why?
Nov 01 00:32:16 <Renfield> To prevent XSS.
Nov 01 00:32:51 <tmzt> how is that?
Nov 01 00:33:21 <Renfield> Well, since JavaScript is turned off, certainly you can not be effected by cross site scripting.
Nov 01 00:34:16 <tmzt> how does that affect you?
Nov 01 00:35:43 <Renfield> I don't remember the details, but there was a good article years back stating why NoScript was a good plugin for FireFox.
Nov 01 00:36:07 <spikebike> sure
Nov 01 00:36:10 <spikebike> lit helps
Nov 01 00:36:27 <zinx> i just like to know what sites are requiring javascript
Nov 01 00:36:47 <zinx> it's a large number of them at this point
Nov 01 00:36:49 <spikebike> zinx seems somewhere close to 100% ;-)
Nov 01 00:36:51 <Renfield> Unfortunately, now it is just about every single site requires JavaScript.
Nov 01 00:36:54 <zinx> usually for stupid stuff like layout
Nov 01 00:37:00 <Renfield> Yes.
Nov 01 00:37:00 <zinx> which could be done via html/css :x
Nov 01 00:37:25 <zinx> spikebike: it's not anywhere near 100%
Nov 01 00:37:41 <Renfield> I don't think they realize how much this hampers accessibility.
Nov 01 00:38:08 <Renfield> zinx: Well, when you use NoScript, it sure feels like it.
Nov 01 00:38:20 <zinx> Renfield: maybe when you use it
Nov 01 00:38:28 <Renfield> Yes.
Nov 01 00:38:28 <zinx> Renfield: the sites i go to don't tend to require it :/
Nov 01 00:39:01 <spikebike> at least when google uses javascript I feel like I'm getting something for it
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Nov 01 02:59:56 2009