**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun May 27 02:59:56 2007
May 27 08:20:26 <Furre> is there a way to overclock the Z in ångström?
May 27 08:20:50 <Furre> GPSdrive is way slow at 416mhz ^^
May 27 08:43:55 <koen|away> don't use gpsdrive, it sucks
May 27 08:44:03 <koen|away> use maemo-mapper or something like that 
May 27 08:56:24 <Furre> koen|away, is that in the feeds aswell?
May 27 09:34:30 <mr_nice> How to find a working revison id for building angstrom-x11-image? Are there any knowing good revision ids online available?
May 27 09:35:42 <Marex> mr_nice, hi ... there isnt any
May 27 09:35:55 <Marex> mr_nice, just fix yourself what wont build and commit a patch :b
May 27 09:36:03 <Marex> or see bugtracker for fixes
May 27 09:39:15 <mr_nice> hm, is the gcc version a rule in angstrom? 
May 27 09:49:33 <dcordes> Furre: do you have your gps navigation running?
May 27 09:57:09 <Furre> no, uninstalled gpsdrive :x
May 27 09:57:28 <Furre> but and now I dont know howto use maemo to start ^^
May 27 09:58:41 <Furre> why dcordes? :)
May 27 12:08:28 <Furre> anyone know japanese here? :/&
May 27 13:43:21 <summatusmentis> are there any official angstrom pictures available for download? logos etc.
May 27 15:39:12 <AsLan^> I don't suppose anyone knoews where I can find some information about running off an SD card? I've tried using ipkg -d sd but it installs everything into a packages directory without symlinking anything
May 27 15:39:42 <hrw> AsLan^: basically you need kernel which has root=/dev/mmcblk0p1 set in cmdline
May 27 15:39:46 <hrw> AsLan^: or use altboot
May 27 15:39:54 <hrw> and then you boot to sd card as /
May 27 15:40:24 <AsLan^> without using altboot, how can I pass an arg to the kernel?
May 27 15:40:46 <CoreDump|home> you don't. It is impossible
May 27 15:40:56 <AsLan^> oh!
May 27 15:40:57 <hrw> AsLan^: recompile kernel ;(
May 27 15:41:01 <AsLan^> np :)
May 27 15:41:08 <hrw> CoreDump|home: do you run angstrom on nslu?
May 27 15:41:19 <CoreDump|home> hrw: nah, slugos
May 27 15:42:32 <hrw> CoreDump|home: I am thinking about adding kexecing of angstrom root/dev/sda1 kernel if sda is detected (under openslug in flash)
May 27 15:43:20 <CoreDump|home> hrw: I don't get it. What's the benefit of running Angstrom on the slug in the first place?
May 27 15:43:35 <hrw> CoreDump|home: feeds
May 27 15:43:38 <CoreDump|home> slugos build just fine via OE
May 27 15:43:52 <hrw> on my machine glibc 2.3.5 fails
May 27 15:44:06 <CoreDump|home> hrw: I didn't try a build for a month or so
May 27 15:46:15 <CoreDump|home> anyway, I deeply dislike Angstrom's policy about image contents (ie: there must practically be no device optimisation at all)
May 27 15:46:27 <koen|away> we have a policy>?
May 27 15:46:42 <koen|away> I only saw psokolovsky_ ramblings, which I strongly disagree with
May 27 15:47:20 <CoreDump|home> koen|away: you basically said so yourself on the ML. And since nobody else answered, that pretty much makes it policy
May 27 15:48:13 <CoreDump|home> "You can do  what ever you want, but you must not call your image "Angstrom" if you do" 
May 27 15:48:14 <koen|away> I fail to see how replacing dropbear with something bigger is 'device optimization' 
May 27 15:48:53 <CoreDump|home> because dropbear is a joke and doesn't make any sense at all for devices with large amount of flash or an HDD rootfs
May 27 15:49:23 <CoreDump|home> same for busybox. It only makes sense for embedded stuff w/ limited rootfs
May 27 15:49:29 <hrw> koen|away: some people like sftp
May 27 15:49:52 <koen|away> hrw: 'people' not 'devices'
May 27 15:50:02 <psokolovsky_> all that "device optmization" is b/s. just some folks wants to enforce their personal likes on other people. And when pointed about that, ramble that somebody forces them ;-E
May 27 15:50:39 <psokolovsky_> CoreDump|home: linux is a joke. you really should try with writing an OS kernel optimized for your device.
May 27 15:50:52 <CoreDump|home> psokolovsky_: well, *cough* now Angstrom is trying to force _their_ likings onto me. Where is the big difference?
May 27 15:51:19 <CoreDump|home> I like Linux, thank you very much
May 27 15:51:44 <koen|away> hrw: 'ipkg install openssh-sftp'
May 27 15:51:48 <psokolovsky_> CoreDump|home: please try not to see that as enforcement, but as good deep proposal that we care about the whole angstrom more than about any specific device in it.
May 27 15:52:31 <CoreDump|home> you fail to address my point that other devices simply won't be affected by changes for a single type of device ;)
May 27 15:53:34 <psokolovsky_> CoreDump|home: that *once again* shows that it's all "opinions, opinions" matter. you like linux, don't like dropbrea, my friend bob doesn't like linux, likes dropbear. me likes likes linux, but v 1.0, etc, etc. isn't that boring? what about having consistent core and customize it like *any* other linxu distro does? 
May 27 15:53:40 <koen|away> I'd prefer if someone wrote a proper tasks and image target for stuff like this so it can be _reused_ 
May 27 15:54:13 <koen|away> this isn't openzaurus or openslug that only target a tiny subset of machines
May 27 15:54:19 <koen|away> (nothing against OZ or OS)
May 27 15:54:43 <psokolovsky_> CoreDump|home: yeah, but you want to waste your effort on *your* device, not on everybody's angstrom. Of course, I haev nothing against your personal choices, but if evryone will go (actually, keep going) that direction, that will be bad.
May 27 15:54:53 <Crofton> this "one dstribution to rule them" stuff is hard
May 27 15:55:16 <hrw> CoreDump|home: what about big-console-image and big-x11-image?
May 27 15:55:19 <koen|away> Crofton: it makes your head hurt :)
May 27 15:55:28 <CoreDump|home> psokolovsky_: whatever you are going to do, the "One Size Fits All" is not going to work -ever-. Either your distro works OK-ish on embedded PDA-type stuff and will _suck_badly_ on larger machines, or the other way around.
May 27 15:55:28 <Crofton> yeah
May 27 15:55:38 <hrw> CoreDump|home: and make them contain 'full' versions
May 27 15:56:15 <hrw> cu all
May 27 15:56:22 <Crofton> Why aren't we outside having fun?
May 27 15:56:39 <koen|away> because the weather sucks
May 27 15:56:46 <Crofton> not here
May 27 15:57:02 <psokolovsky_> Crofton: well, we don't have even to invent sth - everything was done for 10+ years before our eye. any random "desktop" distro supports thousand of motherboard models somehow ;-D
May 27 15:57:02 <CoreDump|home> hrw|gone: because as per current policy, you wouldn't be able to call them "Angstom" images ;)
May 27 15:57:27 <psokolovsky_> CoreDump|home: I personally acre about PDAs. but all PDAs, not any specific one, or subset.
May 27 15:57:27 <Crofton> yes, but desktops have fewer constraints
May 27 15:57:37 <Crofton> my ebedded work is on machines without displays
May 27 15:58:01 <Crofton> although some people use a display with the OSK
May 27 15:58:27 <Crofton> there are far more desired feature set permutations in this work
May 27 15:58:43 <Crofton> made worse be OE having the capability to be all things to all people
May 27 15:58:54 <Crofton> (which is a feature)
May 27 15:59:05 <psokolovsky_> Crofton: fewer or lesser is relative. as long as you accept the fact that all computers are the same, and difference only emphasize similarities, there shouldn't be too many issues ;-)
May 27 16:00:13 <summatusmentis> I like hrw's idea, big images for devices that can handle it
May 27 16:00:34 <psokolovsky_> Crofton: well, we specifically discuss Angstrom, which has "consumer-level" target. OE itself obviosuly has enough flexibility to produce and adhoc and optimized images.
May 27 16:01:11 <koen|away> my target is "world domination"
May 27 16:01:19 * summatusmentis hides form koen|away 
May 27 16:01:32 <summatusmentis> why does the vim in the feeds not act like vim on a desktop?
May 27 16:01:35 <psokolovsky_> summatusmentis: you miss it. "big" images, period. devices come way later and on another level.
May 27 16:01:55 <summatusmentis> psokolovsky_: I'm not sure I understand what you're saying...
May 27 16:02:16 <psokolovsky_> koen|away: then we should make our (your? ;-)) job easier. small random variations steal lots of time.
May 27 16:02:55 <psokolovsky_> summatusmentis: I'm saying that the talk about distro, period. forget about devices - you switch them too often too care about.
May 27 16:02:56 <koen|away> I think we should adopt a mantra like "reusable, retargetable, simple"
May 27 16:03:27 <Crofton> can we easily control things like dropbear vs ssh in machine.conf?
May 27 16:03:44 <summatusmentis> psokolovsky_: so it falls entirely on the user to replace things like dropbear vs. ssh? or bash vs. busybox?
May 27 16:03:47 <koen|away> yes, be we don't want to
May 27 16:03:58 <koen|away> it's called DISTRO_SSH_DAEMON for a reason :)
May 27 16:04:02 <psokolovsky_> koen|away: yep. but add "consistent" for anything user-facing too ;-)
May 27 16:04:08 <koen|away> arguably, it's really IMAGE_SSH_DAEMON
May 27 16:04:50 <psokolovsky_> summatusmentis: of course! or how you do it on your desktop - you wait while Debian or Ubuntu prepare you dedicated CD with changes *you* want? lol.
May 27 16:04:50 * XorA|gone thinks he has tracked all his problems down to faulty RAM, now the question is what RAM to buy instead
May 27 16:05:09 <koen|away> XorA|gone: ah, so mainboard, disks and cpu are fine
May 27 16:05:14 <Crofton> not the same brnad as the old ram
May 27 16:05:34 <XorA|gone> koen|away: disks are fine, CPU is I think fine, its either ram or the MB->RAM interface
May 27 16:05:50 <CoreDump|home> psokolovsky_: we are talking about embedded systems. You shouldn't compare them with big machines. They are entirely different
May 27 16:05:50 <summatusmentis> psokolovsky_: no, I build it from scratch using gentoo :-) the thing is, busybox provides way more than just those, so it would fall upon the user to install all replacements of system utils
May 27 16:05:53 <XorA|gone> koen|away: but do I spend another 50 quid on different RAM to test this, or buy new machine
May 27 16:06:57 * koen|away mentions 'task-proper-tools': http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?action=details&pnm=task-proper-tools
May 27 16:07:30 <psokolovsky_> CoreDump|home: excuse me, embedded system is in your refridgerator. we talking real devices here, no z80 stuff. but if you prefer to look from that point of view, that should answer you why there's dropbear, not openssh. because it's "embedded" ;-)
May 27 16:07:38 <CoreDump|home> koen|away: I didn't know that one, thanks
May 27 16:08:18 <summatusmentis> koen|away: <3 <3 <3
May 27 16:08:23 <psokolovsky_> summatusmentis: system, unsystem, nonsystem and oversystem - everything is installed by user.
May 27 16:09:22 * CoreDump|home stops arguing now.
May 27 16:09:35 <CoreDump|home> I'm running my own distro in any case *shrug*
May 27 16:10:06 <summatusmentis> psokolovsky_: yes, I agree, but when base images are provided using 'small' versions of utils, for a device, or group of devices, with enough ram/hd space to use the full versions of the utils, is there any reason angstrom shouldn't support that?
May 27 16:10:18 <koen|away> there isn't
May 27 16:10:35 <koen|away> it will have to be done properly, instead of using hacks
May 27 16:10:42 <CoreDump|home> hehe
May 27 16:10:45 <koen|away> and sadly, hacks are easy
May 27 16:10:45 <CoreDump|home> "hacks"
May 27 16:11:06 <summatusmentis> koen|away: that's fair
May 27 16:11:10 <CoreDump|home> angstrom's metadata together with task-base already provides easy overrides
May 27 16:11:17 <psokolovsky_> summatusmentis: there's should some erasonable compromise between different criteria. using busybox & dropbear is one such good compromise, tested for viability.
May 27 16:12:00 <CoreDump|home> psokolovsky_: I would be pretty pissed to find dropbear and busybox on a "large" machine :)
May 27 16:12:28 <Crofton> Maybe we should create the "meter" distro for large machines
May 27 16:12:30 * CoreDump|home images busybox on his notebook and shudders violently
May 27 16:12:33 <psokolovsky_> CoreDump|home: then think about users who just use GUI w/o knowing what's behind the scenes.
May 27 16:13:05 <psokolovsky_> CoreDump|home: so, between 2 extremes of you being pissed and somebody not caring at all, there's middle-line compromise of using just it ;-)
May 27 16:13:08 <CoreDump|home> these users would install SuSE or Mandriva...
May 27 16:13:25 <CoreDump|home> (on their PC-type machines)
May 27 16:13:30 <summatusmentis> koen|away:  using task-proper-tools, I can then ipkg remove --recursive busybox right?
May 27 16:14:21 <koen|away> I wouldn't recommend it
May 27 16:14:37 <koen|away> and by your logic, you don't need to since you have space to spare ;)
May 27 16:14:57 <koen|away> that recipe is just a proof of concept hrw and I made
May 27 16:15:29 <summatusmentis> koen|away: no, that's not what I"m saying :-D by my logic, there's no reason not to use the full tools, if the room is available, as compared to running two versions of the same toool
May 27 16:15:32 <summatusmentis> tool*
May 27 16:15:47 <summatusmentis> koen|away: so I should leave busybox and just get used to the new symlinked commands?
May 27 16:16:12 <koen|away> yes, or improve the recipe for task-proper-tools
May 27 16:16:54 <summatusmentis> ok, I'll look at it
May 27 16:19:06 <koen|away> the trouble with saying "machine <foo> uses full tools" in the distro config is that makes it painfull to make small images for that machine to use as e.g. initrd, rescue system or chroot 
May 27 16:19:44 <koen|away> it would be better to write new (reusable) tasks and (reusable) images, like hrw said 
May 27 16:20:50 <koen|away> that way you can achieve the "consistent" and "choice" goals
May 27 16:21:24 <summatusmentis> koen|away: lacking intricate knowledge of how OE works, what do you mean by reusable tasks?
May 27 16:22:07 * Crofton hopes mickey|lunch pays attentions to these conversations for his book :)
May 27 16:22:13 <koen|away> meta-packages that can be reused, e.g. not hardcoding too much specifics in it
May 27 16:22:49 <koen|away> djeez
May 27 16:23:07 <koen|away> why do forum people try to send me 'PM's instead of email?
May 27 16:23:20 <koen|away> now I get an email saying that I have a message
May 27 16:23:28 <koen|away> instead of getting the message by email
May 27 16:23:29 <summatusmentis> lol
May 27 16:23:53 * Crofton cringes at the thought of using forums
May 27 16:24:06 <koen|away> ~lart lougi6000 for being a clueless nuisance
May 27 16:25:03 * koen|away likes http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/contact
May 27 16:25:15 <NAbyss> Forums.. ick.
May 27 16:34:25 <AsLan^> sweet, booted off the SD card :D
May 27 16:34:36 <AsLan^> thanks guys
May 27 16:34:57 <summatusmentis> CoreDump|home: I'm not trying to be a pest, how goes altboot?
May 27 16:35:50 <summatusmentis> are the feeds having issues?
May 27 17:04:22 <CoreDump|home> summatusmentis: no changes since your last test 
May 27 18:52:59 <dnix>  hi all
May 27 18:54:09 <dnix> does an image for h3600 exists?
May 27 18:59:58 <dnix> anybody develop for h6300?
May 27 19:00:04 <dnix> I would be happy to test
May 27 19:20:28 <CoreDump|home> 36xx, wow
May 27 19:20:38 <CoreDump|home> that's truly ancient =)
May 27 20:04:44 <Freak_NL> Hello
May 27 20:05:12 <Freak_NL> Where can one put vars you want declared for a GPE session?
May 27 20:05:21 <Freak_NL> .xinitrc doesn't seem to work
May 27 20:06:11 <Freak_NL> nor does .xprofile
May 27 20:06:49 <CoreDump|home> well, the xterm of GPE does not support any rc files to my knowledge
May 27 20:07:44 <Freak_NL> there must be some way to set LC_ and IM module vars for an user
May 27 20:10:30 <Freak_NL> ah well, just pop 'em in /etc/profile.d..
May 27 20:39:23 <grasmaaier> join oe
May 27 23:27:37 <Laibsch> Freak_NL: I have been working on scim as well.
May 27 23:27:49 <Laibsch> But I think you have made farther progress than me.
May 27 23:28:02 <Laibsch> Please be sure to share your recipe
May 27 23:28:18 <Laibsch> And let's continue with more ideas at gakusei
May 28 02:28:43 <zonyl> Hi all.  Just flashed 070512 on my c700 and it the summary initrd didnt appear to have any UI. (I have console)  Ive read that it is supposed to lauch GPE?
May 28 02:29:12 <Zero_Chaos> zonyl: which image did you flash?
May 28 02:29:13 <NAbyss> zonyl: Which image did you use? The angstrom-x11-image should launch GPE, iirc
May 28 02:29:41 <zonyl> Angstrom-console-image-test-20070512-c7x0.rootfs.summary.jffs2 
May 28 02:29:55 <zonyl> I dont see an x11 in the folder
May 28 02:30:27 <zonyl> from: 
May 28 02:30:30 <zonyl> http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/unstable/images/c7x0/20070512/
May 28 02:31:14 <NAbyss> Yeah, the console image won't boot GPE.. might be worth digging around for an earlier snapshot that includes an x11 image
May 28 02:31:51 <zonyl> Is there a problem with X11 in the later builds?
May 28 02:32:05 <zonyl> or does it not fit on the corgi
May 28 02:32:36 <Zero_Chaos> zonyl: likely it just wasn't built.
May 28 02:33:13 <zonyl> Thanks.  I found a build in the 20070507
May 28 02:33:18 <zonyl> ill try that out
May 28 02:33:42 <zonyl> oh.  18M  That wont fit on the internal nand :(
May 28 02:34:01 <Zero_Chaos> pivot root it is
May 28 02:35:16 <zonyl> Do I need to install altboot then?
May 28 02:35:54 <Zero_Chaos> I believe it is included in the console image... don't trust me though
May 28 02:44:52 <zonyl> dont see the /etc/altboot-xxxx.conf file so I am assuming it isnt installed.  Tried the referred page for a ipk and went bust: http://oz.hentges.net/openembedded/altboot/
May 28 02:45:10 <zonyl> is there an official package for angstrom
May 28 02:45:41 <Zero_Chaos> there is no official release of angstrom, so no.
May 28 02:46:21 <zonyl> well. how about unofficial :)
May 28 02:46:33 <Zero_Chaos> look around, there should be one there.
May 28 02:46:43 <summatusmentis> zonyl: altboot doesn't work yet w/ angstrom
May 28 02:46:50 <summatusmentis> only partially works on the Cxx00 series
May 28 02:47:00 <summatusmentis> CoreDump|afk is working on it
May 28 02:47:09 * Zero_Chaos learns something new everyday
May 28 02:47:28 <summatusmentis> actually, ipkg-link doesn't work either
May 28 02:48:02 <summatusmentis> afaik, the only way to boot off of sd is to add a kernel param(which is impossible), so you actually have to recompile the kernel w/ OE, setting up SD as the root device
May 28 02:49:22 <zonyl> Ah yes.  Just like the old I-Opener days when NFSROOT param didnt parse in the 2.4 kernel :)
May 28 02:49:57 <zonyl> ill try that then.  Thanks st!
May 28 02:50:21 <summatusmentis> sure thing zonyl, altboot is in the works
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon May 28 02:59:56 2007